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Surprise Arizona Tea Party Patriots to hear Common Law Grand Jury crackpot

Birthers were at one time enamored by the “citizens grand jury.” They didn’t like the fact that no prosecutor or grand jury would indict Obama for crimes they believed he committed, so they set up their own shadow government with grand juries, prosecutors and judicial proceedings, culminating with the famous The Blood of Jesus v. Obama trial by Pastor James D. Manning in Harlem.

They’re back in a presentation by Terry Rapp, scheduled for December 2 at the Surprise Arizona Tea Party Patriots (not to be confused with the Surprise Arizona Tea Party or the Judean People’s Front) meeting. [View a slide presentation by Rapp on the Arizona Common Law Grand Jury.] Rapp has been making the rounds in Arizona at least since last February with seminars on common law grand juries.

Rapp is the Arizona representative of the National Liberty Alliance, an organization promoting common law grand juries across the country. NLA head John Darash (not his real name) is himself quite a character, and you can read about him and his organization at The Fogbow.

Some believe that the grand jury is properly a guard against prosecutorial abuse and some argue that the grand jury as originally intended was an independent investigative body. Whatever the original intention or current implementation of the grand jury in Arizona or in the United States, the grand jury is a representative of the people and this point is where extra-governmental grand juries stumble. Citizen grand juries are collections of like minded people, excluding those who don’t share their ideology. They don’t represent the people as a whole and as such they have no legitimacy under any interpretation of the meaning of  grand jury. Real grand juries consist of randomly selected individuals, not volunteers with an axe to grind.

Thanks to those who provided information used in this article.

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24 Responses to Surprise Arizona Tea Party Patriots to hear Common Law Grand Jury crackpot

  1. avatar
    John November 20, 2014 at 10:46 pm #

    “Real grand juries consist of randomly selected individuals, not volunteers with an axe to grind.”

    Not necessarily True Doc. Grand Juries CAN be Biased.

    http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2014/08/23/walt-bias-of-the-grand-jury/

    So while statutes may call for randomly selected individuals, underlying fundamentals of a Grand Jury do not rule out “Individuals with an axe to grind.”

  2. avatar
    John November 20, 2014 at 10:56 pm #

    Actually Walt Fitzpatrick claimed that the grand jury indicted him was tainted because some members on the grand jury had an “Axe to Grind” with Walt. Obot NBC rejected this argument stating that the Grand Juries DO NOT have to be free of individuals that have an “Axe to Grind” and therefore Walt’s argument was not valid.

  3. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 20, 2014 at 11:15 pm #

    The point is not that every member of a grand jury is unbiased, but rather that it reflect the community, which is made up people with various biases. The birther grand juries only represented birthers.

    John: Obot NBC rejected this argument stating that the Grand Juries DO NOT have to be free of individuals that have an “Axe to Grind” and therefore Walt’s argument was not valid.

  4. avatar
    The Magic M November 21, 2014 at 4:12 am #

    “Citizen Grand Jury” is just the modern euphemism for “lynch mob”.

  5. avatar
    RanTalbott November 21, 2014 at 4:34 am #

    Or, perhaps, “pre-lynch mob”, since they tend not to have the object of their disaffection available for trial and execution.

  6. avatar
    The Magic M November 21, 2014 at 7:21 am #

    I’d settle for “wannabe lynch mob”.

  7. avatar
    Curious George November 21, 2014 at 8:44 am #

    Was the Surprise Tea Party tipped of by Joe and Mikey about Joe filing a legal action against President Obama? It looks like Larry Klayman will be carrying the ball.

  8. avatar
    bovril November 21, 2014 at 9:27 am #

    Ahhhh, Leisure Suit Larry and his Epic of Fail strikes again…… One hopes the good Shurrif has Larry on contingency for this one, after all there surely is no concern that LSL will fail to deliver…. is there…?… 😈

  9. avatar
    alg November 21, 2014 at 9:38 am #

    My citizen grand jury indicted and convicted Mr. Rapp of fraud, treason and sedition last week. We will have officers of the court waiting to take him into custody when he arrives to speak at the Surprise Tea Party Patriots meeting on December 2. Thank you for letting us know where to find him.

    John, your next. The indictment papers should arrive by courier earlier next week. 🙂

  10. avatar
    Curious George November 21, 2014 at 9:44 am #

    alg
    “John, your next. The indictment papers should arrive by courier earlier next week.”

    Get the handcuffs ready.

  11. avatar
    Dave November 21, 2014 at 8:18 pm #

    I’d like to know more about the history of this crazy idea. I used to think it originated with an article by Donofrio — that seemed to be what the birther “citizen grand juries” cited as justification. But later it came to my attention that sovcits have included this in their extensive toolbox of insane legal theories for years. I have occasionally seen journalists label birthers as sovcits based on their use of fake-o grand juries. And I note that Rapp’s website has a big banner telling you he is not a sovcit.

    What I really wonder is, did Donofrio get his crazy idea from sovcits, or did he think it up independently?

  12. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 21, 2014 at 11:47 pm #

    I suppose this is the article:

    https://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2009/01/22/federal-grand-jury-4th-branch-of-government-leo-donofrio-5th-amendment-us-constitution-constitutional-power-we-the-people-us-supreme-court-has-upheld-creighton-law-review-american-juror-fede/

    In it, I don’t see anything to suggest that a grand jury can form itself. What it argues is that a grand jury, once legally formed, can constitutionally return a presentment to the court whether there is a prosecutor involved or not. I’m not sure who Donofrio intends to prosecute the presentment.

    The birther “citizen’s grand jury” forms itself, so it would not be something Donofrio contemplated.

    The National Liberty Alliance seems to be saying in “Breaking News November 10, 2014 Unified Common Law Grand Jury in every State files writ_quo_warranto.pdf in every Federal District Court, United States Supreme Court and served upon every Federal Judge and all 9 US Supreme Court Justices” that its common law grand juries are not constituted by the courts, but by the NLA, since real grand juries aren’t doing that.

    The case emphasized by the NLA is United States v. Williams (504 U.S. 36 ) also cited by Donofrio. Donofrio cites this from Williams:

    “Judges’ direct involvement in the functioning of the grand jury has generally been confined to the constitutive one of calling the grand jurors together and administering their oaths of office. See United States v. Calandra, 414 U.S. 338, 343 (1974); Fed.Rule Crim.Proc. 6(a). [504 U.S. 36, 48] “

    Note that the judge calls the grand jurors together, not that they call themselves.

    So my guess is that Donofrio cribbed from the Sov Cits.

    Dave: I’d like to know more about the history of this crazy idea. I used to think it originated with an article by Donofrio

  13. avatar
    nbc November 22, 2014 at 1:36 am #

    John: Actually Walt Fitzpatrick claimed that the grand jury indicted him was tainted because some members on the grand jury had an “Axe to Grind” with Walt. Obot NBC rejected this argument stating that the Grand Juries DO NOT have to be free of individuals that have an “Axe to Grind” and therefore Walt’s argument was not valid.

    That is almost correct. Just because some of the jurors may have been aware of Walt’s follies, that does not necessary render them tainted.. And we were talking about Terry.

    You really should work on your reading comprehension skills my friend.

    The issue of a grand jury being tainted requires a bit more than one may imagine. The courts have ruled that the Grand Jury may very well be biased, however that their oath requires them to rule in a fair manner. The charges against the former foreperson are not related to his performance during the grand jury and he never accused the grand jury members.

    You are such a fool my dear John. Unable to even accurately represent my arguments.

    Walt was found guilty and that’s it… We The People have spoken and any claims of bias need a bit more than just speculation.

    And yet, that is all John really has.

    Jphn pretended to be an expert

    http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2014/09/07/fl-foreperson-of-the-grand-jury-charged-with-simulating-a-legal-process/#comment-69570

    John could hardly be considered an expert in much anything legal.

  14. avatar
    nbc November 22, 2014 at 1:41 am #

    John: Not necessarily True Doc. Grand Juries CAN be Biased.

    That is not what the ruling said, or my argument.

  15. avatar
    nbc November 22, 2014 at 1:42 am #

    I stand corrected, I did discuss Walt as well as Terry. John has yet to respond in any meaningful manner to the cited cases.

  16. avatar
    nbc November 22, 2014 at 1:44 am #

    Rapp is confused about natural law, God’s law and Common Law. Common law is judge made law…

    Why can these people not educate themselves more properly?

  17. avatar
    nbc November 22, 2014 at 1:49 am #

    US v Williams does not support any form of a Common Law Grand Jury.

    The courts have been clear that the grand jury is an arm of the court.

  18. avatar
    aarrgghh November 22, 2014 at 5:10 am #

    nbc: Why can these people not educate themselves more properly?

    a rhetorical question i know, but i’ll answer it anyway: that would mean being constantly told that they’re wrong.

    ignorance is bliss.

  19. avatar
    nbc November 22, 2014 at 2:23 pm #

    It runs deeper than that. It seems to me that many of these people cannot handle the dissonance of conflicting data and beliefs and rather prefer to accept an “authoritatian”‘s statement. Much like a cult.

    Once they are ‘hooked’ they can no longer process contradictory information and everything has to be interpreted in the light of a conspiracy.

  20. avatar
    The Magic M November 24, 2014 at 5:44 am #

    nbc: Rapp is confused about natural law, God’s law and Common Law.

    I usually loathe anyone referring to laws beyond those made by men. Because that is usually just a pretext for not following our laws.
    Concepts like “inalienable rights” may have been derived from general moral or religious foundations, but in the end only what has been explicitly instituted can be the basis of our everyday life.

  21. avatar
    Jim November 24, 2014 at 12:54 pm #

    nbc: Rapp is confused about natural law, God’s law and Common Law.

    And let’s not forget that ever-popular birther law…OrlyLaw! 😀

  22. avatar
    J.D. Sue November 24, 2014 at 2:06 pm #

    While there is no basis in the actual law, it nonetheless occurs to me that Rapp’s pretend grand jury system would make a nice fit with Nancy Owens’ otherwise-frustrated ambition to testify against herself and be indicted for treason and murder.

  23. avatar
    Arthur November 24, 2014 at 3:37 pm #

    J.D. Sue: While there is no basis in the actual law, it nonetheless occurs to me that Rapp’s pretend grand jury system would make a nice fit with Nancy Owens’ otherwise-frustrated ambition to testify against herself and be indicted for treason and murder.

    If Nancy really wants some attention from the FBI, she should take up recruiting for ISIL.

  24. avatar
    Curious George December 3, 2014 at 11:48 pm #

    Where’s the Surprise Tea Party “Truth Squad” when you need them? 😉