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Mike Zullo: Birther misleader

I want to focus on two statements, one made by Mike Zullo before the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officer’s convention June 1, 2013, and one by Mark Gillar in an interview with Mike Volin the following December. I make the comparison to show that birthers who hear what Mike Zullo says can be misled. Here’s Zullo’s statement:

In 1961, the term used to describe black people on a birth certificate was “negro.”  In order to document this we obtained the 1960 vital statistics instruction manual containing the instructions for coding race on a birth certificate that where followed by every health department in the United States, including the Hawaiian Health Department. As you can see, if the parents race was reported as “colored,” “black,” “brown,” or “Afro-American” the Department of Health Services was required to consider the parents a “negro.” For those of you who may be wondering why the 1960 manual was consulted instead of the 1961 manual, it’s because the 1961 manual wasn’t published until 10 days after Barack Obama’s birth…

Anyone who is familiar with birthers knows that it is widely held among them that the Father’s Race (African) on the Obama certificate is not an allowable entry, and therefore the only reasonable purpose for Zullo’s statement would be to confirm that view. Upon careful examination, Zullo doesn’t say that the race reported by the parent is restricted or changed, but only considered “negro” (in context “considered” refers to the application of a set of rules for determining the race of the child). Zullo also does not say who does the considering—it is key operators at the National Center for Health Statistics who enter data from microfilm records from the states). Zullo also does not say that the 1960 manual was used to code Obama’s data, only notes its publication date. Since 1961 data was keyed in 1962, the August 1961 manual is the applicable document for all 1961 data. A careless listener might also think that the Zullo statement was applicable to the Obama certificate, even though the race “African” wasn’t a listed category. Finally Zullo may leave the impression that what he cited from the 1960 manual was not in the 1961 manual, but it is.

Now what happens when a birther hears the Zullo statement? Here is Mark Gillar’s impression:

It’s about law. In 1961 when Obama was born, the 1961 vital statistics coding manual had not come out. They were still using, even in August, they were still using the 1960 vital statistics manual, and what that manual clear states is that if someone represents themself as “African American,” which was abbreviated A. A., if they represented themself as “black,” if they represented themself as “colored,” the clerk at the department of health was still supposed to list them as a negro. And that’s what the 1960 book has. I can give that to you guys. I actually got them to turn that over to me.

Zullo’s “Department of Health Services,” an ambiguous term probably indicating the Department of Health and Human Services, the federal successor agency to the Department of Health, Education and Welfare that issued the 1960 manual becomes in Gillar’s mind “Department of Health,” which would be appropriate for the Hawaii Department of Health or other local health department. In Gillar’s mind, “considered as” (for statistical purposes) became “list them as.” The fact that Gillar makes the statement at all suggests that he also failed to notice that “African” wasn’t on the list in the instructions.

In the infamous tableau of false and misleading statements that was the second Cold Case Posse press conference, perhaps the highlight was the account of Jerome Corsi’s interview with Verna K. Lee, a registrar at the Hawaii Department of Health in 1961, the person who signed Obama’s birth certificate. Zullo attributed very little to Lee beyond the assertion that entries on Hawaiian birth certificates were double checked,  yet I have read birthers say that basically everything in that press conference related to race coding came from Lee, including the fake 1961 race code chart.

Here is what Zullo actually said:

These codings we learned through our investigation, and then locating the mysterious U.K. Lee, which has plagued this thing for four years, where people were wondering who this is, we located Verna Lee. Verna Lee is 95 years old, amazingly sharp. We spoke with her and she confirms to us what I’m going to share with you now.

You can’t have a document coded like other documents double-checked and have a code that says 9, “not stated” and have a piece of information sitting in the box. That just can’t happen. Verna Lee confirmed that for us.

See how easily one could fall into the false impression that Zullo was saying that Lee had confirmed a specific 1961 code and that she had confirmed everything that followed. Does “what I’m going to share with you now” refer to the next paragraph or more? It’s ambiguous. In fact birther listeners widely believe that it was Zullo who interviewed Lee over the phone rather than Jerome Corsi; that is after all what one expects the lead investigator to do.

The human mind expects that points in an argument are relevant and logically consistent, and it will fill in some obvious gaps. I do this myself. In the case of Mike Zullo, filling in those obvious omissions is a mistake because sometimes the obvious relevance and logical connection one would fill in isn’t true.

See also:


Note: I have found it curious that neither Zullo nor Gillar has been willing to provide the title of this 1960 manual. I think I know why.

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141 Responses to Mike Zullo: Birther misleader

  1. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG February 23, 2015 at 10:09 am #

    They’re an extremely easy lot to mislead. Zullo’s entire con has worked out so well for him, because of that fact. Well, it also hinges on their ODS as well. Just look at Domestic enemy john. Most days he’s one straw away from swearing off Zullo, but then his Obama Derangement Syndrome flares up, and the pathetic little turd comes crawling back for more.

  2. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 23, 2015 at 10:15 am #

    I have been mislead into thinking Zullo said something that he didn’t say, but I don’t believe anything he says, so my mistakes are of less consequence.

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: hey’re an extremely easy lot to mislead.

  3. avatar
    gorefan February 23, 2015 at 10:56 am #

    The birther contention that the DOH would have used the 1960 manual instead of the 1961 manual (issued after August 4th) stems from their belief that the BC entries would have been changed by the DOH shortly after the birth and therefore for the President’s BC they would have been using 1960 as that was the only manual available.

    Their belief is based on this 1961 Hawaiian BC:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/tempmonckton-obama-type13_Page_07_Image_0003.jpg

    BTW, this BC appears to have a 9 as the race code for the father and a 2 as the race code of the mother.

  4. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater February 23, 2015 at 11:11 am #

    gorefan: BTW, this BC appears to have a 9 as the race code for the father and a 2 as the race code of the mother.

    That’s interesting since birther rules state that the number for negro would have been 2.

  5. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) February 23, 2015 at 11:28 am #

    yet I have read birthers say that basically everything in that press conference related to race coding came from Lee

    It’s pretty common for birthers to make up extensions or extended paraphrases of the “official” lore by themselves.
    This includes literal extensions (“Obama’s lawyer admitted the BC is fake”) and incorrect paraphrases (“Verna Lee said the data on Obama’s BC aren’t correct”).
    While this is easily explained as deliberate falsehoods for propaganda purposes when coming from birther “leaders”, it’s psychologically interesting when coming from followers.
    One possible explanation is that they cannot handle all those bits of information from lots of different sources and tend to lump things together in their badly wired brains (so “A said X from which B deduced Y which led C to speculate Z” becomes “A said X, Y and Z”).

  6. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater February 23, 2015 at 11:33 am #

    The Magic M (not logged in): It’s pretty common for birthers to make up extensions or extended paraphrases of the “official” lore by themselves.

    It’s like how Sarah Obama saying she was present in Kenya while Obama was born in Hawaii suddenly became that Obama was born in Kenya, to she was in the hospital in kenya when Obama was born to she was in the delivery room and then, she held him in her arms in the delivery room and was there the whole time.

  7. avatar
    john February 23, 2015 at 11:50 am #

    I have never really believed “African” Race Theory. I have believed that the BC should have said “Kenyan” not “African” or “Negro” argued by birthers. Obama Sr. apparently declared himself “Kenyan” not “African” on his University of Hawaii Application. It should also be noted that “African” is not a race and that races are declared by Country not Continent like German not European, Korean not Asian, Kenyan not African, American not North American.

  8. avatar
    Kate February 23, 2015 at 12:14 pm #

    john:
    I have never really believed “African” Race Theory.I have believed that the BC should have said “Kenyan” not “African” or “Negro” argued by birthers.Obama Sr. apparently declared himself “Kenyan” not “African” on his University of Hawaii Application.It should also be noted that “African” is not a race and that races are declared by Country not Continent like German not European, Korean not Asian, Kenyan not African, American not North American.

    In discussing his lengthy prison term at Robbens Island in Africa, Nelson Mandela referred to himself and other blacks as Africans. He was describing the discrimination that exists towards blacks in Africa and how they were segregated from the whites in prison. It’s also of some note to realize that the blacks who fought in World War II were referred to as Africans by the German military in both movies and books dating to that time period. It proves that blacks in Africa would most definitely refer to themselves as Africans as Barack Obama’s father did due to the self-reporting of race on the birth certificate.

    So, John, was Nelson Mandela wrong regarding his own race or do you think you know more about the customs in Africa than he did?

  9. avatar
    bgansel9 February 23, 2015 at 12:19 pm #

    john: I have never really believed “African” Race Theory. I have believed that the BC should have said “Kenyan” not “African” or “Negro” argued by birthers

    Kenyan is a citizenship/residency indicator, not a race indicator. Would you expect to see “American” under race on your birth certificate? Are you really this daft?

  10. avatar
    john February 23, 2015 at 12:41 pm #

    One of Obama Sr.’s Application clearly indicate his race of “Kenya”. It probably means “Kenyan”. Obama Sr. always listed his nationality or citizenship as Kenya or British. Apparently when the application was filled out, Obama Sr. indicated to the person filling out the application he was “Kenya” for his race, not “African” as shown on the BC. We would have see more applications that list Obama Sr’s Race but that’s only one that can be found. “African” was more a generalized term to refer to blacks from Africa where more specific races designations were specified on birth certificates.

  11. avatar
    bgansel9 February 23, 2015 at 12:49 pm #

    john: One of Obama Sr.’s Application clearly indicate his race of “Kenya”

    Cite? Which document? Where?

    ““African” was more a generalized term to refer to blacks from Africa

    and just how is a black man from Kenya’s race different from say a black man from Djibouti or the Ivory Coast, or Cameroon or Botswana? Really? Are you going to tell me there are different races of black skin?

  12. avatar
    OllieOxenFree February 23, 2015 at 12:50 pm #

    john:
    I have never really believed “African” Race Theory.I have believed that the BC should have said “Kenyan” not “African” or “Negro” argued by birthers.Obama Sr. apparently declared himself “Kenyan” not “African” on his University of Hawaii Application.It should also be noted that “African” is not a race and that races are declared by Country not Continent like German not European, Korean not Asian, Kenyan not African, American not North American.

    Assumption. Obama Sr. may have never identified himself at all or even attended the birth. It is more than likely, in my opinion, that Obama’s mother stated who the father was when asked at the hospital. When asked what the race of the father was, she more than likely stated, “he is from Africa,” or, “he is from Kenya,” or some other description that led to him being listed as, “African,” by someone at the hospital.

  13. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater February 23, 2015 at 1:26 pm #

    john:
    I have never really believed “African” Race Theory.I have believed that the BC should have said “Kenyan” not “African” or “Negro” argued by birthers.Obama Sr. apparently declared himself “Kenyan” not “African” on his University of Hawaii Application.It should also be noted that “African” is not a race and that races are declared by Country not Continent like German not European, Korean not Asian, Kenyan not African, American not North American.

    Once again you’re missing the point. It’s self identifying. He could have called himself whatever he wanted on either document and it would still be correct.

  14. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater February 23, 2015 at 1:27 pm #

    john: One of Obama Sr.’s Application clearly indicate his race of “Kenya”. It probably means “Kenyan”. Obama Sr. always listed his nationality or citizenship as Kenya or British.

    Who cares? It’s self identifying. He could have picked whatever he wanted and it would still be correct.

  15. avatar
    bgansel9 February 23, 2015 at 1:35 pm #

    Come on John. I’m waiting. Please tell me how Ethnicity is actually different races of people.

    By the way, you should take a DNA test for Ancestry.com and find out when your ancestors left Africa. The major differences in race are due to migratory factors (a group of people leaving the hot sunbelt of Africa and migrating to the Tundra didn’t need the same amount of melanin in their skin. That is what causes the differences in skin color, Melanin. Look it up!) Some of your own ancestors had black skin too. I’m sure you wouldn’t want to know about that though.

    Race is an identifier for general groups of people who share common traits (skin color, facial structure, hair type) not for sociological factors like nationality and tribal ethnicity. The term you are looking for is Ethnic Group. An Ethnic Group is not a Race. Perhaps the reason why you are always wrong on the birther issue is because you don’t even understand basic scientific classifications of race. Why does this not surprise me? – http://anthro.palomar.edu/ethnicity/ethnic_1.htm

  16. avatar
    Notorial Dissent February 23, 2015 at 2:04 pm #

    My impression was that Sr was more than just a bit shall we say lackadaisical in his dealings with official documents. The birth affidavit was signed by Obama’s mother so there is no evidence that Sr was even around at the time, and my understanding is that he had pretty well abandoned her/them by that point. So John is just making it up as he goes along again. Just one more in a long list of wasted life.

  17. avatar
    HistorianDude February 23, 2015 at 3:22 pm #

    john:
    I have never really believed “African” Race Theory.I have believed that the BC should have said “Kenyan” not “African” or “Negro” argued by birthers.Obama Sr. apparently declared himself “Kenyan” not “African” on his University of Hawaii Application.It should also be noted that “African” is not a race and that races are declared by Country not Continent like German not European, Korean not Asian, Kenyan not African, American not North American.

    Simply untrue. African has been considered a race for at least 2000 years, since Livy wrote about “the African Race” in his histories of Rome. Furthermore, the assignment of “race” to continent of origin is common and impossible to miss. “Asian” is the most obvious example, but in much of the world whites are referred to as members of the “European” race.

    And we must never forget the 1962 Kenyan Census enumeration instructions which are explicit that white Kenyans were to be recorded as “African” (or Somali) and white Kenyans were to be recorded as “European.” This is of particular relevance since it is how Obama Sr. would have understood his own race when asked to self-declare by his son’s birth hospital.

    As to this “University of Hawaii application” you refer to. You got a link for that?

  18. avatar
    Joey February 23, 2015 at 3:31 pm #

    When Factcheck.org did its August, 2008 investigation into the Obama birth certificate they interviewed Kurt Tsue of the Hawai’i Department of Health who said concerning the African race designation: “We accept what the parents self-identify themselves to be.”

    Mr. Tsue’s statement is confirmed when one looks at “birther princess” Miki Booth’s son’s Hawai’i Certificate of Live Birth. It lists the parents’ races as Caucasian/Japanese and Caucasian/Hawaiian. By birther “standards” on race, are Japan and Hawai’i any more or less races than “African?”
    http://logisticsmonster.com/2010/02/10/miki-booth-wants-obama-to-show-his-real-birth-certificate-among-other-documents/

  19. avatar
    bgansel9 February 23, 2015 at 3:38 pm #

    Joey: “We accept what the parents self-identify themselves to be.”

    Which makes John’s “should have been…” explanation a total fabrication.

  20. avatar
    Joey February 23, 2015 at 3:47 pm #

    The racial designations of the parents on a Certificate of Live Birth have ZERO bearing on constitutional eligibility under Article II, Section 1. The only information on a birth certificate that is relevant to presidential eligibility is date of birth to establish age and place of birth to establish “jus soli” citizenship status. A state issued document with an official Seal and a certification signature establishes those facts.
    Barack Obama, John McCain or Mitt Romney could use their passports or their driver’s licenses to establish constitutional eligibilty.

  21. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater February 23, 2015 at 4:00 pm #

    HistorianDude: And we must never forget the 1962 Kenyan Census enumeration instructions which are explicit that white Kenyans were to be recorded as “African” (or Somali) and white Kenyans were to be recorded as “European.” This is of particular relevance since it is how Obama Sr. would have understood his own race when asked to self-declare by his son’s birth hospital.

    Further back than 1962 you had the racial designations listed for the survivors of the Titanic Disaster. One of the possible designations was African.

  22. avatar
    Reality Check February 23, 2015 at 4:21 pm #

    Correct. I documented that in a blog post.

    Birther Claim about Obama’s father’s race goes down with the Titanic

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Further back than 1962 you had the racial designations listed for the survivors of the Titanic Disaster. One of the possible designations was African.

  23. avatar
    john February 23, 2015 at 5:52 pm #

    HistorianDude: Simply untrue. African has been considered a race for at least 2000 years, since Livy wrote about “the African Race” in his histories of Rome. Furthermore, the assignment of “race” to continent of origin is common and impossible to miss. “Asian” is the most obvious example, but in much of the world whites are referred to as members of the “European” race.

    And we must never forget the 1962 Kenyan Census enumeration instructions which are explicit that white Kenyans were to be recorded as “African” (or Somali) and white Kenyans were to be recorded as “European.” This is of particular relevance since it is how Obama Sr. would have understood his own race when asked to self-declare by his son’s birth hospital.

    As to this “University of Hawaii application” you refer to. You got a link for that?

    Check the Obama Sr. Immigration File on Scrib. When Immigration fingerprinted Obama Sr. during his entry process to the University of Hawaii, they noted his race. It was listed as “Kenya” not “African” like all the the Obots are saying. Perhaps they meant “Kenyan” which I believe is the correct race designation instead of “African”. In any event they asked Obama Sr. to provide his vital information which would have included race and told them is was “Kenya” not “African”. Perhaps Obama Sr. was confused and thought they meant citizenship or nationality but was probably unlikely since a nationality box was included on the form. It’s the only other form that I could find other than the birth certificate that lists race. We do have an apparent discrepancy that has yet to be explained so the “African” race theory is still possible for birthers. Obots have offered their own theories that may be Stanley Ann reported the race. It’s possible but there is no way to know for certain.
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/54015762/Barack-Hussein-Obama-Sr-Immigration-File#scribd

  24. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG February 23, 2015 at 5:55 pm #

    Still waiting for you to explain to us what you’ve got against our nation and it’s Constitution, john.

  25. avatar
    bgansel9 February 23, 2015 at 6:10 pm #

    john: Check the Obama Sr. Immigration File on Scrib. When Immigration fingerprinted Obama Sr. during his entry process to the University of Hawaii, they noted his race. It was listed as “Kenya” not “African” like all the the Obots are saying.

    You mean THIS immigration file which says “My Nationality is Kenya” ???… that one? Nationality is NOT Race. What makes you think his race is noted there? The file is a little difficult to read on Scribd. Please show me where this race indicator is. – http://www.scribd.com/doc/54015762/Barack-Hussein-Obama-Sr-Immigration-File#scribd

  26. avatar
    john February 23, 2015 at 6:15 pm #

    bgansel9: You mean THIS immigration file which says “My Nationality is Kenya” ???… that one? Nationality is NOT Race. What makesyou think his race is noted there?The file is a little difficult to read on Scribd. Please show me where this race indicator is.–http://www.scribd.com/doc/54015762/Barack-Hussein-Obama-Sr-Immigration-File#scribd

    2nd to last document with the finger prints.

  27. avatar
    bgansel9 February 23, 2015 at 6:36 pm #

    Okay, I found it about 9/10’s of the way down on the PDF. Now, because an immigration official listed his race as Kenya, you think that effects Barack Obama Jr.’s eligibility HOW?

    My grandfather was listed on his military registration records as being Black and he was Caucasian. Does this mean I should start listing myself as Black too?

    What is your concern with this document and why do you think it effects the president at all?

  28. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater February 23, 2015 at 6:47 pm #

    john: 2nd to last document with the finger prints.

    You still don’t understand he could have filled out a different race each time and still been correct since the race is self identifying

  29. avatar
    john February 23, 2015 at 6:48 pm #

    bgansel9:
    Okay, I found it about 9/10’s of the way down on the PDF.Now, because an immigration official listed his race as Kenya, you think that effects Barack Obama Jr.’s eligibility HOW?

    My grandfather was listed on his military registration records as being Black and he was Caucasian. Does this mean I should start listing myself as Black too?

    What is your concern with this document and why do you think it effects the president at all?

    Well, it does raise concern. Obama Sr. should have declared himself “Kenya” or “Kenyan” on Obama’s birth certificate. But, he declared himself “African” which is a discrepency yet to be explained. Though several theories are possible no one can know for certain. The only way to truly know is to find another document Obama Sr. that lists race and see what race listing is.

  30. avatar
    bgansel9 February 23, 2015 at 6:51 pm #

    john: Well, it does raise concern.Obama Sr. should have declared himself “Kenya” or “Kenyan” on Obama’s birth certificate.But, he declared himself “African” which is a discrepency yet to be explained.Though several theories are possible no one can know for certain.The only way to truly know is to find another document Obama Sr. that lists race and see what race listing is.

    Prove to me he was even there to do so. This is just another witch hunt and might I say that I’m not surprised that you went through all that work to hunt down that ONE race indicator. You are just looking for needles in haystacks. Wow, John. You should seek help. You are so incensed with our president that you would resort to this nonsense? Really? That says so much about you.

    So, because my grandfather’s military registration records record him as “Black” even though he was Caucasian, does that mean I’m doing something wrong when I represent myself as Caucasian (which I am? because someone wrote the wrong information on a military registration card? What’s your opinion on that?

  31. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 23, 2015 at 6:54 pm #

    Having filled out a number of immigration forms lately, I always put “United States” for nationality. I would never use that for race,

    bgansel9: You mean THIS immigration file which says “My Nationality is Kenya” ???… that one? Nationality is NOT Race.

  32. avatar
    bgansel9 February 23, 2015 at 6:59 pm #

    john: Obama Sr. should have declared himself “Kenya” or “Kenyan” on Obama’s birth certificate.

    May I ask for your credentials to make such a determination? What professional credentials do you hold to make this statement? Under what authority do you speak? Maybe according to the world of John, that might be so, but, I see nothing to indicate that your statement is one made from credible authority. Wishing doesn’t make it so, either.

  33. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG February 23, 2015 at 7:01 pm #

    john, if you’re going to be a little coward, and never engage questions directed to you, why are you even here?

  34. avatar
    Mark Edward Gillar February 23, 2015 at 7:29 pm #

    You were misled into thinking Zullo said something and called him a “bald face liar” because of something someone else said he said. If I had done that you and your small band of followers would be screaming sloppy research. You get a free pass from your group because they can’t bring themselves to admit you screwed up.

    Admit it C, you are so quick to attack Zullo, Arpaio or anyone associated with them as part of your little crusade against birthers that you’ll run to print without paying attention to the facts. Then you go back and scrub your website with little if any mention of the fact that you were wrong. Remember when you said that I didn’t give the name of the Hawaiian official who said it was reasonable that Obama Sr. would have represented himself as African. You were basing that statement on an article about a phone call I made to Mike Volin. I didn’t even write the article,
    yet you used that article to call me a liar, a common Alinksy tactic.

    One would think that in the name of thorough research you would have it least listened to the audio of my phone call to Volin before embarrassing yourself. Did you? (Birther Report did provide the link) Oh nooooooo, you stated that I didn’t mention the official. Then, you went back and scrubbed your website with no mention of being wrong. Fine upstanding work there buddy. FINE WORK!

  35. avatar
    john February 23, 2015 at 7:41 pm #

    The African Race discrepancy is like the Dr. Sinclair discrepancy. On Obama’s birth certificate, Dr. Sinclair signed his name but he forgot to add the MD designation. On Miki Booth’s certificate, Dr. Sinclair signs his name with the MD designation. So we have an apparent discrepancy. Some will argue that since the check box for MD was checked is was not necessary for Dr. Sinclair to add the MD designation. The problem with this is that I did find another birth certificate where another doctor (not Sinclair) signed his name with the MD designation even though the check box for MD was checked. This proves that adding the MD designation is a matter of preference. Still, it really doesn’t explain why Dr. Sinclair would add MD on some birth certificates but leave it off on others. This discrepancy does raise concern when you do consider the check box for MD appears to look funny like a scratch up.

  36. avatar
    sactosintolerant February 23, 2015 at 7:48 pm #

    The African as race issue is just another inane birther theory.

    Regardless, I found a Texas death certificate from the 1978 death of a UT student visiting from Africa that lists his race as “African” along with a handwritten note that the info came from his passport.

  37. avatar
    Reality Check February 23, 2015 at 7:52 pm #

    john

    Do you have any idea how stupid you sound?

    john: This proves that adding the MD designation is a matter of preference.

  38. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 23, 2015 at 7:54 pm #

    If one were making a forgery, one would expect it to have to stand up to world-wide scrutiny. A real doctor signing a birth certificate does not have that expectation. You may complain that the world is not 100% consistent, but that will not change the fact that it isn’t. I mean, consider how sophisticated a forger would have to be to have put that code “9” next to race, and known about African on the Kenyan census. All those things that birthers thought were wrong keep turning out to be right.

    Between the Hawaii verifications and the Xerox experiment, I think you are just going to have to give up on any forgery notions you still have.

    john: till, it really doesn’t explain why Dr. Sinclair would add MD on some birth certificates but leave it off on others. This discrepancy does raise concern when you do consider the check box for MD appears to look funny like a scratch up.

  39. avatar
    gorefan February 23, 2015 at 7:58 pm #

    Mark Edward Gillar: One would think that in the name of thorough research you would have it least listened to the audio of my phone call to Volin before embarrassing yourself.

    Hey Mark do you remember this from the CCP video for the first press conference:

    “Look at the distance between the zero and the innermost circle of the stamp; look at the distance to the right of the zero and beneath the zero. The reason the numbers eight and zero are out of position on Barack Obama’s registration card …”

    I notice you no longer make the claim that the 80 is out of position, you now only claim the 19 is missing and the 8 is upside down (it’s not by the way).

    Why have you and Zullo dropped the claim that the 80 is out of position?

  40. avatar
    bgansel9 February 23, 2015 at 8:03 pm #

    john: The problem with this is that I did find another birth certificate where another doctor (not Sinclair) signed his name with the MD designation even though the check box for MD was checked.

    Gosh, John. You should run for public office and become the hammer that pushes conformity in document creation (you could disappear doctors who omit the “M.D>” on the occasional document – such power you could have!. LOL I’m surprised to see a birther who is so adamant about pushing regulatory control. I thought Obama haters also hated regulations, no?

  41. avatar
    bgansel9 February 23, 2015 at 8:06 pm #

    Mark Edward Gillar: You were misled into thinking Zullo said something and called him a “bald face liar” because of something someone else said he said. If I had done that you and your small band of followers would be screaming sloppy research. You get a free pass from your group because they can’t bring themselves to admit you screwed up.

    Several times on this site I’ve seen a quote posted from Zullo stating that other people can speak for him (I believe that list included Arpaio and Gallups). Are you denying that Zullo said this?

  42. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 23, 2015 at 8:11 pm #

    I’ve said on several occasions that I have been involved with Vital records since the 1970’s and wrote a birth certificate accounting and issuance system around 1978. In 1980 I went to work for a private company that provided vital records software, and we did systems for the state of Wisconsin and New Jersey in the 80’s. In the early 90’s we did the Florida system. However, it was not until the late 90’s when the holding company that owned us bought another vital records company that I was really sent to vital records boot camp both to learn their system and to come up with a set of specifications for the successor system. My teacher was Jan Weiser, former registrar for the State of Colorado, and other subject matter experts. That was when I learned in a more rigorous fashion the difference between the “legal record” and the “statistical record.” The legal record records the affidavits of an “informant” (usually the mother) and the “attendant” (usually the delivering doctor). The legal record is what we commonly call a birth certificate, and it cannot be changed by some clerk either by fiat or by federal mandate. Such changes require a court order or a statute.

    The race code is part of the statistical record and those codes are either assigned algorithmically or according to human judgment. In 1961, Hawaii assigned race codes for parents from their unique code set to the forms and the federal clerks punched the infant race code from a uniform federal code set based on microfilm copies of the records from Hawaii.

  43. avatar
    gorefan February 23, 2015 at 8:15 pm #

    john: This proves that adding the MD designation is a matter of preference. Still, it really doesn’t explain why Dr. Sinclair would add MD on some birth certificates but leave it off on others.

    No John it does explain it. On BCs with the check boxes he didn’t add MD and on those without the check boxes he added MD. That’s perfectly logical.

    The Nordyke’s doctor did not add MD.

    Johanna Ah’Nee’s doctor did not add MD

    Edith Coats’ doctor did add the MD.

    Dr. Rodney West did not add the MD to a 1959 birth certificate.

    I’ll bet if you go find birth certificates without the check boxes signed by these doctors, they added MD.

  44. avatar
    Reality Check February 23, 2015 at 8:15 pm #

    Notice that Mark Edward Gillar has yet to address the fact that the majority if not all of the anomalies included in the videos he produced for the CCP press conferences have been explained as benign artifacts of a normal scanning process. Until he admits that why should anyone assume he is interested in a serious discussion?

    He has also yet to tell us who did the forgery, how they did it, and explain how it has been hidden by hundreds of people for seven years.

  45. avatar
    john February 23, 2015 at 8:29 pm #

    gorefan: No John it does explain it.On BCs with the check boxes he didn’t add MD and on those without the check boxes he added MD.That’s perfectly logical.

    The Nordyke’s doctor did not add MD.

    Johanna Ah’Nee’s doctor did not add MD

    Edith Coats’ doctor did add the MD.

    Dr. Rodney West did not add the MD to a 1959 birth certificate.

    I’ll bet if you go find birth certificates without the check boxes signed by these doctors, they added MD.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/01/obamas_other_big_lie.html

    Look at the beat up birth certificate. The doctor signed his name and MD designation. The Check Box for MD is also checked.

  46. avatar
    bgansel9 February 23, 2015 at 8:35 pm #

    john: Look at the beat up birth certificate. The doctor signed his name and MD designation. The Check Box for MD is also checked.

    Having both the Designation M.D. and the box checked does NOT effect anything. You have to find one where neither is used. The box check can create a redundant system were the same information is recorded more than once, but that doesn’t mean the document is not correct. But, of course, I’m not surprised to find that you think this way. This is the problem with you, John.

  47. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 23, 2015 at 8:39 pm #

    While I cannot say for sure after this much time, I would say that I probably didn’t didn’t listen to your interview with Volin, but relied on the Birther Report article. The lack of any quotes from it other than those in the Birther Report article, suggests that I didn’t. I listened to it for THIS article. There is a lot of birther audio out there, and it takes time to listen to it and even longer to transcribe it.

    I am the first to admit that I get into trouble when I rely on birther sources, in this case Birther Report. It has happened before. That said, even though I misattributed particular quotations in the article, the article was essentially correct. You lied about the 1960 manual and most of the content in the Birther Report article derived from your false statements.

    This isn’t a newspaper with editors and researchers and fact checkers. I’m just one guy that I think does a pretty good job, but not a perfect one. The commenters here perform some role as editors, just as you belatedly did.

    You, however, are a monumental hypocrite, failing to acknowledge that just about everything you said for Zullo, and for yourself, was wrong. Now that your lie has been pointed out in this article, where is the correction? Where is the admission?
    Nowhere. The Bible calls this “straining a gnat, but swallowing a camel.”

    Your silence, and the silence of Zullo piles on more lies every day. And Zullo is a bald-faced liar. Just because one thing wasn’t a lie doesn’t erase the rest,.

    Mark Edward Gillar: One would think that in the name of thorough research you would have it least listened to the audio of my phone call to Volin before embarrassing yourself. Did you?

  48. avatar
    gorefan February 23, 2015 at 8:52 pm #

    john: Look at the beat up birth certificate. The doctor signed his name and MD designation. The Check Box for MD is also checked.

    So what? Some doctors added it others didn’t. From the small sample more didn’t than did. Now go find birth certificates without the check boxes signed by these doctors and see how they handled it. My prediction is that if the BCs don’t have the check boxes the doctors will add MD.

  49. avatar
    Jim February 23, 2015 at 9:04 pm #

    john:
    Look at the beat up birth certificate.The doctor signed his name and MD designation.The Check Box for MD is also checked.

    OMG john…THAT’S IT!!! You’ve cracked the case! Sherlock Holmes, Columbo, Scooby Doo…eat your heart out!

    All these years, all these failures and john has broken this case so wide open, there’s no way Obama can survive!

    And john discovered the ONLY CLUE to the whole 50+ year conspiracy…there will be parades for him, drinks named after him, a national holiday!

    All because the Dr left this one clue…THE DOCTOR DID IT!!! Must have switched the REAL Obama II with a radical, black, mooslim, radical who was bent on destroying america…even at newborn!

  50. avatar
    Reality Check February 23, 2015 at 9:18 pm #

    That was stupid question on my part. Of course he doesn’t.

    Reality Check: Do you have any idea how stupid you sound?

  51. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater February 23, 2015 at 9:21 pm #

    john: Well, it does raise concern. Obama Sr. should have declared himself “Kenya” or “Kenyan” on Obama’s birth certificate. But, he declared himself “African” which is a discrepency yet to be explained. Though several theories are possible no one can know for certain. The only way to truly know is to find another document Obama Sr. that lists race and see what race listing is.

    Once again you’re clueless as ever. There is no discrepancy. He could have put something different each time and it would still be correct as its self identifying.

  52. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater February 23, 2015 at 9:25 pm #

    Mark Edward Gillar: You were misled into thinking Zullo said something and called him a “bald face liar” because of something someone else said he said. If I had done that you and your small band of followers would be screaming sloppy research. You get a free pass from your group because they can’t bring themselves to admit you screwed up.

    Really he didn’t admit anything? Doc updated two articles for you. Have you ever gone back and corrected the record on any of your claims that were proven untrue? No. For the race codes you didn’t take any responsibility; you blamed the CCP then you blamed the CDC. You failed to do any research and then couldn’t even admit it when you got caught repeating the false claims.

    Mark Edward Gillar: Then you go back and scrub your website with little if any mention of the fact that you were wrong. Remember when you said that I didn’t give the name of the Hawaiian official who said it was reasonable that Obama Sr. would have represented himself as African. You were basing that statement on an article about a phone call I made to Mike Volin. I didn’t even write the article,
    yet you used that article to call me a liar, a common Alinksy tactic.

    How does Doc updating the article, admitting the error considered scrubbing? You failed to update your bad information. Which page of Alinsky’s book is that tactic listed on? You can’t just claim random things are Alinsky tactics.

    Mark Edward Gillar: One would think that in the name of thorough research you would have it least listened to the audio of my phone call to Volin before embarrassing yourself. Did you? (Birther Report did provide the link) Oh nooooooo, you stated that I didn’t mention the official. Then, you went back and scrubbed your website with no mention of being wrong. Fine upstanding work there buddy. FINE WORK!

    You mean like how you failed to do any research before repeating the race code lie? Or how you pretend to be a journalist while accepting payment from sources? No wonder you defended Zullo when he took a bribe; just like Zullo you lack integrity.

  53. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater February 23, 2015 at 9:28 pm #

    john: The African Race discrepancy is like the Dr. Sinclair discrepancy. On Obama’s birth certificate, Dr. Sinclair signed his name but he forgot to add the MD designation.

    There is no african discrepancy. There is no Dr. Sinclair discrepancy. You forget that he checked the MD box.

    john: he problem with this is that I did find another birth certificate where another doctor (not Sinclair) signed his name with the MD designation even though the check box for MD was checked

    Why does it actually matter or why do you think it matters?

  54. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater February 23, 2015 at 9:30 pm #

    john: Look at the beat up birth certificate. The doctor signed his name and MD designation. The Check Box for MD is also checked.

    Who cares?

  55. avatar
    john February 23, 2015 at 9:35 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Who cares?

    as it begs the question why did Dr. Sinclair add MD on 1 birth certificate but forgot to add on the other?

  56. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG February 23, 2015 at 9:43 pm #

    john: as it begs the question why did Dr. Sinclair add MD on 1 birth certificate but forgot to add on the other?

    Also begs the question of why you keep dodging point blank questions like “Why do you hate America, and her Constitution, so much?”

  57. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 23, 2015 at 9:43 pm #

    The goal is not always being right, but about always striving to be right. In many cases, I do highlight my errors, particularly when the article is somewhere near current. As you yourself have seen, I acknowledge contributions resulting in changes to articles at least in comments. The old article about you now has this in boldface at the top:

    “Note: This article has been updated at the request of Mark Gillar (February 2015) to clarify what things he said, and what the Birther Report article said. I also added some new material from the Gillar interview.”

    Heck, sometimes I write a feature article about my mistakes, such as: Freepers Score a “gotcha” on the Doc.

    I even wrote software to go through every page on the site to make sure it was in the Web Archive (Wayback Machine) and if not to add it.

    Now in the face of that, can you honestly still claim: “Then you go back and scrub your website with little if any mention of the fact that you were wrong”? No, you cannot.

    In my mind, the important thing is that I get it right, even if it’s 2 years later. For birthers, the goal is not to get it right, but to get it against Obama, and they rarely acknowledge errors, nor do they usually correct them. (There are a few exceptions,)

    That’s the difference between you and me. I correct my mistakes, and you just keep repeating yours. Obviously the truth is not your objective.

    I notice that you have no answer to the charges in this article, and you didn’t answer my challenge about giving the title of the manual you claimed to have.

    Mark Edward Gillar: Admit it C, you are so quick to attack Zullo, Arpaio or anyone associated with them as part of your little crusade against birthers that you’ll run to print without paying attention to the facts. Then you go back and scrub your website with little if any mention of the fact that you were wrong.

  58. avatar
    Keith February 23, 2015 at 9:48 pm #

    john: This proves that adding the MD designation is a matter of preference. Still, it really doesn’t explain why Dr. Sinclair would add MD on some birth certificates but leave it off on others.

    WtF cares?

    Sinclair was a human being. He did repetitive things differently from time to time, so what?. Maybe he was in a hurry. Maybe he was distracted. Maybe he just noticed it was redundant. Maybe he got bored doing it the same way every time. Maybe…Maybe…

    It is trivial beyond belief, and absolutely insane that you would think that it means anything more than superficial. Do you walk down the street and wonder why sometimes a woman wears different colored earrings in each ear? Or why your Greengrocer calls those purple things “aubergines” instead of “eggplants”? Frankly, it would be more interesting to know why your local weatherman signs off every night with ‘back to you Eugene’ except every once in a while he says ‘koo-koo-ka-choo Zondy’.

    The purpose of the form and the information boxes thereon is to communicate information. Do you successfully ‘get’ the communication that Dr. Sinclair is an M.D. from each of the examples you have seen? If so, then the purpose of the form was satisfied.

    There is no magic here. No mystical incantation that, if not done ‘just so’, will anger Pele and cause her, in a fit of pique, to overflow Halemaʻumaʻu crater or blow the top off Moana Loa.

  59. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater February 23, 2015 at 9:53 pm #

    john: as it begs the question why did Dr. Sinclair add MD on 1 birth certificate but forgot to add on the other?

    No it begs the question, who cares?

  60. avatar
    RanTalbott February 23, 2015 at 9:57 pm #

    bgansel9: Please tell me how Ethnicity is actually different races of people.

    By dictionary definition, and centuries of common usage. Using the word to classify people by skin color is relatively recent, and many people (especially outside the U.S.) still use it to refer to nationality or ethnicity.

  61. avatar
    Keith February 23, 2015 at 9:58 pm #

    Jim: And john discovered the ONLY CLUE to the whole 50+ year conspiracy…there will be parades for him, drinks named after him, a national holiday!

    I’ve already named one of the rooms in my house after him..

  62. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 23, 2015 at 10:00 pm #

    You fail to note that the “bald faced” liar remark was footnoted in the original article with examples where Zullo unquestionably lied.

    While Zullo did not actually say that Reilly was fired, what he did say led others to think so.

    When I make a mistake, I correct it, but more than that, I scrutinize the subject carefully, to make sure that I made a mistake, and make sure I get it right. What happens more times than not is that when I dig deeper, I find that it uncovers something equally bad or worse on the birther side. In the case of your Mike Volin interview, I found I had misquoted you, but when quoted correctly, you still turned out to have lied.

    The same is true of the claim that Zullo said he fired Brian Reilly. While I wasn’t able to substantiate that claim (which still could be true), I found an equally damning passage in the PPSIMMONS Zullo interview that was carefully scripted to leave a false impression about Reilly. You have to read it a couple of times to see that they are not actually technically what they seem to say. It’s as much a lie as the”fired” would have been had Zullo actually said it.

    Mark Edward Gillar: You were misled into thinking Zullo said something and called him a “bald face liar” because of something someone else said he said.

  63. avatar
    RanTalbott February 23, 2015 at 10:13 pm #

    Mark Edward Gillar: You get a “free pass” from your group because they can’t bring themselves to admit you screwed up.

    No, he gets a free pass because:
    a. He rarely screws up,
    b. It’s always minor, or even just “trivial”, and
    c. He freely admits it, and fixes his mistakes.

    He’s even been known to thank people when we point out his mistakes.

    That stands in rather stark contrast with the birthers’ behavior. Including your own.

  64. avatar
    alg February 23, 2015 at 10:31 pm #

    Who cares?!? We are talking about something that was done over 53 years ago. It makes perfect sense Obama Sr. self-identified himself as “African.” The term “negro” is a European concoction, not something people from Africa would use to describe themselves.

    While most Americans have heard about the birth certificate “controversy,” only a small handful of people care one whit about the race codes used in 1961 for birth certificates in Hawaii. The whole subject is little different than attempting to count the number of angels on the head of a pin.

    Both the short and long form birth certificates refer to the race of the father as “African,” which is exactly how Obama Sr. would have identified himself in 1961.

    This story begins and ends with the production of Obama’s short form Certification of Live Birth which clearly states: “This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding.”

    Nothing else is required. For the past seven years birthers have been grasping at straws to make believe this is an issue for serious consideration. They have failed miserably at every step of the way because their “issue” is fiction.

  65. avatar
    gorefan February 23, 2015 at 11:06 pm #

    john: as it begs the question why did Dr. Sinclair add MD on 1 birth certificate but forgot to add on the other?

    Why did Dr. Rodney West do the same thing as Dr. Sinclair? It begs the question.

  66. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) February 24, 2015 at 4:47 am #

    bgansel9: So, because my grandfather’s military registration records record him as “Black” even though he was Caucasian, does that mean I’m doing something wrong when I represent myself as Caucasian (which I am? because someone wrote the wrong information on a military registration card?

    Like I said, I once was issued an ID card that had my eye colour listed as “blue” (although it’s brown and has always been listed as such). According to john, it was either a forgery or I am not who I say I am or I have had some kind of eye surgery or colour-changing illness.
    However the difference here is that there isn’t even an obvious “mistake” of some sort on the BC. (Because birthers love to play the “it’s impossible there’s so many “anomalies” associated with Obama’s BC” game.) Everything is as it should be.

  67. avatar
    HistorianDude February 24, 2015 at 8:18 am #

    john: Check the Obama Sr. Immigration File on Scrib. When Immigration fingerprinted Obama Sr. during his entry process to the University of Hawaii, they noted his race. It was listed as “Kenya” not “African” like all the the Obots are saying.

    It’s a typed entry. What would make you think that was his declaration as opposed to the determination of the person who typed the form?

    Furthermore, the “race” of my parents on my birth certificate reads “Italian” while the “race” of my parents on my little sister’s birth certificate reads “Caucasian.” Apparently, official documents can contain alternative entries for the same data point without it being evidence of forgery or fraud.

    You know, John. If you’re going to grasp at straws, perhaps you should actually have straws.

  68. avatar
    HistorianDude February 24, 2015 at 8:29 am #

    john: The African Race discrepancy is like the Dr. Sinclair discrepancy. On Obama’s birth certificate, Dr. Sinclair signed his name but he forgot to add the MD designation

    Yes. They are alike in this particular way:

    When a person signs their signature countless times (as many of us are required to do) there will sometimes be variations. Anyone who has done family history will be intimately familiar with this ordinary fact. In my own collection of my own records I have found signatures where I used my formal first name, my nickname, my middle name, middle initial, or no middle anything at all. And when a person is given multiple opportunities to report any similar detail that has any amount for ambiguity, the report will sometimes be different.

    This is sometimes true even when the entries are mutually exclusive (as “African” and :Kenyan” are not). Think Obama Sr’s birth date for example.

    As anomalies and anomaly mining go you could not have fastened on a weaker one to hang your desperation upon.

  69. avatar
    bgansel9 February 24, 2015 at 8:46 am #

    The Magic M (not logged in): However the difference here is that there isn’t even an obvious “mistake” of some sort on the BC.

    I was just trying to demonstrate that mistakes can be made and that doesn’t negate the document OR the person who was misrepresented.

  70. avatar
    bgansel9 February 24, 2015 at 8:54 am #

    RanTalbott: By dictionary definition, and centuries of common usage. Using the word to classify people by skin color is relatively recent, and many people (especially outside the U.S.) still use it to refer to nationality or ethnicity.

    That’s like saying that before we went to the moon, many people believed folk tales that it was made of green cheese, so now, after humanity has been to the moon, it’s okay to think that it’s made of green cheese. Knowledge increases and definitions change as a result. Your “common usage” is no longer common.

    The Green Cheese myth of the moon is centuries old: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_is_made_of_green_cheese

    See common usage of Race and Ethnicity here: http://www.livescience.com/33903-difference-race-ethnicity.html

  71. avatar
    HistorianDude February 24, 2015 at 8:56 am #

    Mark Edward Gillar: Admit it C, you are so quick to attack Zullo, Arpaio or anyone associated with them as part of your little crusade against birthers that you’ll run to print without paying attention to the facts. Then you go back and scrub your website with little if any mention of the fact that you were wrong.

    The irony of these sorts of accusations coming from birthers is delicious. Especially since they are spun so furiously. To the extent that Doc “gets a pass” it is because we have come to expect him to own up to and correct his mistakes… and yes, he always leaves an account of the error that was originally made and how (and why) he corrected it.

    Contrast this with your own behavior regarding the bald faced lies included in your “coding” video for the second Cold Case Posse press conference. It contains the following “bald faced lies”:

    Number one:

    “In order to decipher these codes, the Cold Case Posse obtained information from the 1961 vital statistics instructions manual for births.”

    We know this is a bald faced lie for at least the following reasons:

    1. The image over which this narration is given is that of the “Natality Tape Files for Calendar Year 1968.”

    2. The actual information from the actual “1961 vital statistics instruction manual” directly contradicts the substantive assertions made in the video.

    3. Every single page of the document from which this image was extracted was headed “Natality Tape Files for Calendar Year 1968.” It could not have been missed by any honest researcher.

    Number two:

    “A review of the coding indicates that all other codes on Barack Obama’s Long Form Birth Certificate that are legible correspond perfectly to the codes listed in the 1961 manual.”

    We know this is a bald faced lie because neither the 1968 manual shown in the video nor the actual 1961 coding manual even provide codes for several of the other fields that were coded on the President’s birth certificate. Fields 7g, 11, 12, 16, 17a and 17b all have legible penciled codes written within them, but none of them correspond to any code table in either document, proving that this claim is a wholesale fabrication.

    Number three:

    “The codes listed in the manual also correspond perfectly to the coding on the Nordyke twins’ Long Form Birth Certificate.”

    We know this is a bald faced lie for the identical reason as lie number two. Any actual comparison of either the wrong document you showed or the actual document which you did not possess contradicts the claim directly and unambiguously.

    Number four:

    “Correction: this video contains a production error. To view the information reflective of the federal government’s 1961 coding policy, please refer to the 33 second mark or the 2:13 mark of this video.”

    We know this is a bald faced lie because while yes, the image you call an “error” (plagiarized without attribution from The Daily Pen) was from a 1969-1971 guidleine, the image you point back to and explicitly claim is “reflective of the federal government’s 1961 coding policy” is the same 1968 document fraudulently offered by you and previously discussed above.

    These are not ambiguities. And they cannot be accidents given the prominence of the genuine title of the key document on every page. It is a deliberate fraud on the attendees of the Press conference; a deliberate fraud for which you have never taken responsibility.

    Someday a birther will make an accusation that is not ironic, and I will throw a party.

    With cake.

  72. avatar
    bgansel9 February 24, 2015 at 9:00 am #

    Keith: I’ve already named one of the rooms in my house after him..

    Is it padded and hopefully below ground? 😛

  73. avatar
    bgansel9 February 24, 2015 at 9:09 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: You mean like how you failed to do any research before repeating the race code lie? Or how you pretend to be a journalist while accepting payment from sources? No wonder you defended Zullo when he took a bribe; just like Zullo you lack integrity.

    Bam!

  74. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) February 24, 2015 at 9:44 am #

    HistorianDude: In my own collection of my own records I have found signatures where I used my formal first name, my nickname, my middle name, middle initial, or no middle anything at all.

    Remember the ODS crowd that claims Obama is not using his legal name because he never uses “Jr.” or “II” at the end. Delusion leads to all kinds of silly results.

    A good friend of mine usually signs with her nickname except when she’s in a situation where her signature will be checked against an official document like her ID card or bank card (where her signature has her full first name). Not because the signature wouldn’t be fine, only to avoid bean counters from complaining.

  75. avatar
    HistorianDude February 24, 2015 at 11:05 am #

    October 5, 2014 – Tea Party Power Hour

    Mike Zullo @ 26:32

    “I have a newsflash for you. I’m not paid a dime. There’s no money here. Money was collected through donation process at the beginning of this at the request to conduct this… an investigation by the residents of Maricopa County and that money was spent to conduct that investigation, of which the public received two press conferences on. And a year and a half of my labor, for free. Um, there was an un… an inordinate amount of traveling to do. There were leads pursued that were nothing but dead ends. Every stone that could be overturned was. Our mandate at the time was to take Mr. Corsi’s information and vet it. And then continue on to investigate as the need arose. And that’s what we did. There’s no money here. There’s… there’s none of that. This is another inflammatory statement that Mr. Reilly is making. I don’t know if Mr. Reilly understands. I work for free. I don’t get paid to do this. I’m not making money doing this.”

    Of the top of my head I can’t recall… when did Zullo’s $10 thousand dollar “gift” become public?

  76. avatar
    bgansel9 February 24, 2015 at 11:11 am #

    HistorianDude (quoting Mike Zullo): There’s no money here. There’s… there’s none of that.

    Really? I could arrange for him to earn $1.00 in the next five minutes and negate the “there’s no money here” statement. The donate button is still active on the CCP page of the MCSO posses website. I think I’ll pass (I can’t see throwing my money to such a person) but, I could, if I wanted to: http://www.mcsoccp.org/joomla/index.php/donations-to-ccp

  77. avatar
    bgansel9 February 24, 2015 at 11:15 am #

    HistorianDude:

    Of the top of my head I can’t recall… when did Zullo’s $10 thousand dollar “gift” become public?

    October 30, 2014: http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/10/turning-the-tables-investigating-the-cold-case-posse/

  78. avatar
    HistorianDude February 24, 2015 at 11:21 am #

    bgansel9: October 30, 2014: http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/10/turning-the-tables-investigating-the-cold-case-posse/

    So… five days after vigorously protesting that “I’m not making money doing this,” it is revealed that he made at least $10K doing this. So… would “bald faced” be an appropriate qualifier for “lie” in that circumstance?

  79. avatar
    bgansel9 February 24, 2015 at 11:21 am #

    By the way, the Surprise Tea Party states Reilly was fired right on their website report of the CBS 5 piece about the $10,000 reveal: http://www.surpriseteapartypatriots.com/cold-case-posse/

  80. avatar
    HistorianDude February 24, 2015 at 11:23 am #

    October 5, 2014 – Tea Party Power Hour

    Mike Zullo, speaking of Brian Reilly at the 38:02 mark:

    38:02

    “If I was going to terminate him… he was told that if he acted up one more time he was going to be terminated. I didn’t tell him I was gonna fire him tomorrow. I let… I gave him a warning.”

    How fine a hair is it to split between firing a person, and having him resign before you have a chance to follow through on the threat of firing a person?

  81. avatar
    bgansel9 February 24, 2015 at 11:26 am #

    HistorianDude: So… would “bald faced” be an appropriate qualifier for “lie” in that circumstance?

    Yes, especially since the Surprise Tea Party states on their report of this that the donor (Bill Wolfe) was already deceased. It didn’t happen a few days prior.

    By the way, I think you mean 25 days.

  82. avatar
    bgansel9 February 24, 2015 at 11:32 am #

    I stated Wolf’s name wrong. There is no “e” at the end.

  83. avatar
    bgansel9 February 24, 2015 at 11:41 am #

    HistorianDude: So… five days after vigorously protesting that “I’m not making money doing this,” it is revealed that he made at least $10K doing this. So… would “bald faced” be an appropriate qualifier for “lie” in that circumstance?

    Actually, one day after vigorously protesting he wasn’t making money at this if one looks at the KPHO emails exchanged between Zullo and Morgan Loew of KPHO:

    http://lmgcorporate.com/kpho/news/ZulloEmail1.jpg

    http://lmgcorporate.com/kpho/news/ZulloEmail2.jpg

  84. avatar
    HistorianDude February 24, 2015 at 12:40 pm #

    Back on the 9 code fraud, I just spent some time reviewing and comparing the July 17th, 2011 Cold Case Posse press conference with the October 5th, 2014 Tea Party Power Hour version and I cannot get the accounts to even come close to reconciling.

    The “CDC verification” version is reflected nowhere in the press conference. There is no mention of any verification from the CDC, and the source of the information is repeatedly declared to be the 1961 coding manual. Gillar’s exact words were:

    In order to decipher these codes, the Cold Case Posse obtained information from the 1961 vital statistics instructions manual for births.”

    The Tea Party Power Hour version is clear that the Posse did not have the 1961 manual in their possession. Worse, the fact that they were on tenterhooks, waiting anxiously for word from a woman stalking the lobby of the CDC confirms that they knew they did not possess the documentation necessary to make the claim. This means that Zullo and Gillar both absolutely knew that their attribution in the video was a bald faced lie.

  85. avatar
    Keith February 24, 2015 at 2:45 pm #

    bgansel9: Is it padded and hopefully below ground?

    No, but it is the smallest room in the house.

  86. avatar
    Curious George February 24, 2015 at 2:48 pm #

    On 10/30/2014, KPHO interview with Reilly:

    Reilly:
    “Zullo got a phone call. He got off the phone call and said, ‘I just got a $10,000 check.”

    Reilly:
    “That was the beginning of May 2012, when that happened.”

    Zullo 10/29/2014 email to Morgan Loew:
    “I don’t remember the month, but in 2012 a Fed-Ex envelope arrives unexpectedly at my door, just out of nowhere. When I opened it there was a check for $10,000 made out to me personally from Bill [Wolf]. I had no idea what it was for.”

    http://www.kpho.com/clip/10794665/extended-interview-former-posse-members-expose-birther-investigation

    Then we have Zullo being interviewed by ABC 15 in Phoenix on July 18, 2012, a little over 2 months after he was said to have received the $10,000 check from birther Bill Wolf.

    Reporter to Zullo:
    “Have you gained anything financially from this?”

    Zullo:
    “No. We had a small book that we published and the proceeds went to charity from that. Never a motivation to make money on this.”

    Apparently, Zullo forgot about the $10,000 check that he was said to have received in May of 2012, only two months earlier?

    I would think that his $10,000 deposit slip would not only show the date but also the time of deposit. Right?

    Let’s see the deposit slip Mr. Zullo and clear this matter up. What? The dog ate your deposit slip? Just as I suspected.

    http://www.abc15.com/news/region-phoenix-metro/central-phoenix/video-arpaios-lead-investigator-talks-obama-birth-certificate-to-abc15

  87. avatar
    Curious George February 24, 2015 at 2:54 pm #

    Link to Zullo email to KPHO’s Morgan Loew :
    http://lmgcorporate.com/kpho/news/ZulloEmail2.jpg

  88. avatar
    bgansel9 February 24, 2015 at 2:57 pm #

    Curious George: Zullo:
    “No. We had a small book that we published and the proceeds went to charity from that. Never a motivation to make money on this.”

    He seems to separate the check as a personal check (meant for his mother’s caretaking, provided by a personal friend) unrelated to his work on the CCP from the money that the CCP brought in. I wonder if he claimed that $10k on his personal taxes?

  89. avatar
    bgansel9 February 24, 2015 at 2:59 pm #

    HistorianDude: Worse, the fact that they were on tenterhooks, waiting anxiously for word from a woman stalking the lobby of the CDC confirms that they knew they did not possess the documentation necessary to make the claim. This means that Zullo and Gillar both absolutely knew that their attribution in the video was a bald faced lie.

    Gee, is Gillar still around? I’d like to see his answer to this.

  90. avatar
    Krosis February 24, 2015 at 3:02 pm #

    I wonder how much can we pay Zullo for revealing the universe-shattering evidence, or, in the almost certain case it doesn’t actually exist, at least, for releasing the Hayes Report.

  91. avatar
    bgansel9 February 24, 2015 at 3:14 pm #

    Krosis: I wonder how much can we pay Zullo for revealing the universe-shattering evidence, or, in the almost certain case it doesn’t actually exist, at least, for releasing the Hayes Report.

    I don’t spend money on birther nonsense and as one who doesn’t support their cause, why would I want to?.

  92. avatar
    Nancy R Owens February 24, 2015 at 4:14 pm #

    ZulloMoore has been covering for the still very active Cuba/Russia Medellin Cartel since the 1980’s. Don’t expect him to stop now.

    It’s a coverup and I have the proof right here: http://www.liveleak.com/c/Nancy_Owens

    They don’t care who enters our lands to kill innocent Americans. Just so long as it puts a few dollars in their pockets.

    These people don’t give one iota who enters the Uni

    Krosis:
    I wonder how much can we pay Zullo for revealing the universe-shattering evidence, or, in the almost certain case it doesn’t actually exist, at least, for releasing the Hayes Report.

  93. avatar
    Reality Check February 24, 2015 at 4:21 pm #

    Since this was a personal gift MIke Zullo would not have had to report it as income as long as it was not given for services rendered (wink, wink, nod, nod). The gift tax exclusion during that period was $13,000 for gifts to individuals so Wolf would not have had to pay any gift wax if that was the total amount he gave to Zullo that year.

    That is why it is critical that the money did not come through the posse or then it might be judged income. If you follow what Brian Reilly said was going on with money it is no wonder they do not want to open up the books for the Cold Case Posse. I think some ugly things might crawl out.

    bgansel9: I wonder if he claimed that $10k on his personal taxes?

  94. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater February 24, 2015 at 4:27 pm #

    HistorianDude: Worse, the fact that they were on tenterhooks, waiting anxiously for word from a woman stalking the lobby of the CDC confirms that they knew they did not possess the documentation necessary to make the claim. This means that Zullo and Gillar both absolutely knew that their attribution in the video was a bald faced lie.

    And now Gillar claims he has emails back and forth from the CDC. Amazing how way after the fact he keeps changing his claim.

  95. avatar
    Curious George February 24, 2015 at 5:05 pm #

    Curious George

    Mike Zullo:
    “No. We had a small book that we published and the proceeds went to charity from that. Never a motivation to make money on this.”

    Apparently, Zullo forgot about the $10,000 check that he was said to have received in May of 2012, only two months earlier?

    I would think that his $10,000 deposit slip would not only show the date but also the time of deposit. Right?

    Let’s see the deposit slip Mr. Zullo and clear this matter up. What? The dog ate your deposit slip? Just as I suspected.

    http://www.abc15.com/news/region-phoenix-metro/central-phoenix/video-arpaios-lead-investigator-talks-obama-birth-certificate-to-abc15

    Even though the dog may have eaten the $10, 000 bank deposit slip we can be somewhat confident that Zullo was at least informed about the $10,000 check prior to Zullo’s ABC 15, July 18, 2012 interview. Reilly stated he knew about the $10,000 check in May 2012 and he resigned on June 30, 2012, according to his resignation letter. I find it unlikely that Zullo would have told Reilly that he received a $10,000 check after Reilly resigned. Again, let’s see the deposit slip or a bank statement Mr. Zullo.

  96. avatar
    gorefan February 25, 2015 at 1:58 am #

    There was also this gem from the sheriff’s convention in June, 2013

    Zullo: “For those of you who couldn’t see, what it is that the tabs are set up and they are left to right justified with a typewriter and on Obama’s it is like a zigzag snake. That is not the characteristic we have seen with dozens of birth certificate that we’ve examined from the state of Hawaii in varying years from 1955, before it was even a state, to present time. The tabs were all opened up. So whoever placed this information on this certificate didn’t have this concept. And you know it, it, it is one of these things that’s going to be very difficult for somebody to explain. The thing that they will use to try and get away from all this is nothing more than just the element of doubt. They’ll just try to create doubt to explain it away. So what we have done is we’ve collected I think we got almost 20 or 25 birth certificates that are all left and right justified perfectly and that’s the way they are suppose to be. So this is just another element to this. And this is almost like building a circumstantial case in a way. You do it for lack of better way to say it layer on layer, you just start building layer upon layer (garbled).”

  97. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater February 25, 2015 at 6:35 am #

    gorefan: There was also this gem from the sheriff’s convention in June, 2013

    Its not the only lie he dropped and never came back to. During the 2nd press conference he mentioned something about the obama family photos all being fake and photoshopped. He never mentioned it again outside that brief statement at the press conference.

  98. avatar
    RanTalbott February 25, 2015 at 7:41 am #

    gorefan: So what we have done is we’ve collected I think we got almost 20 or 25 birth certificates that are all left and right justified perfectly and that’s the way they are suppose to be.

    So, I guess he must think that the Nordyke BCs are fake, too, since they’re formatted the same way.

    His ability to misunderstand something as simple as right justification is truly amazing.

  99. avatar
    Reality Check February 25, 2015 at 8:22 am #

    Even that is a lie. They took a 50 page report that could have easily been made available for free on the MCCCP web site and instead sold it on Amazon. Yet, they never expected to make a dime on it? Then why the hell would you sell it?

    Curious George: Mike Zullo:
    “No. We had a small book that we published and the proceeds went to charity from that. Never a motivation to make money on this.”

  100. avatar
    Nancy R Owens February 25, 2015 at 9:38 am #

    I just received word from Mark McDaniel that there will be another press conference from ZulloMoore. He also pointed out to me that I had requested not to be arrested. I’m not guilty of any crime even though I did forge these documents and see no reason for arrest. I do believe McDaniel. But, not ZulloMoore or Volin. Can anyone confirm when this is supposed to take place?

  101. avatar
    Curious George February 25, 2015 at 9:53 am #

    Reality Check
    February 25, 2015
    “Even that is a lie. They took a 50 page report that could have easily been made available for free on the MCCCP web site and instead sold it on Amazon. Yet, they never expected to make a dime on it? Then why the hell would you sell it?”

    The book was co-authored by Corsi & Zullo as I recall. Corsi writes books to sell for a profit. Corsi’s publisher, WND was also raising cash donations for the Cold Case Posse. A reported birther source for the investigation provided $10K to “lead investigator” Zullo. The one constant in all of this, money. No, they didn’t make a dime on this project. They brought in thousands of dollars one way or another. And with no public access to any financial information about the Cold Case Posse donations, it raises many questions about the true motivation behind this effort.

  102. avatar
    Reality Check February 25, 2015 at 10:41 am #

    I don’t think there is any question at all about their true motivations. 😉

    Curious George: it raises many questions about the true motivation behind this effort.

  103. avatar
    Nancy R Owens February 25, 2015 at 12:29 pm #

    OMG

    Locating the mysterious Ukelele? The mysterious Ukelele worked in Mike ZulloMoore’s own office as a Hendry County Sheriff’s deputy. I signed line one of the long form. He, Deputy Joe Lee, signed line three. I signed line two since nobody else would sign.

    Mike ZulloMoore is facing prison time, I think trying to boo others into thinking he has them over a barrel.

    It’s also why they refuse to admit publicly that I am the forger.

    I’m definitely beginning to see the whole picture now.

    Book ’em!

  104. avatar
    gorefan February 25, 2015 at 1:42 pm #

    June 1, 2013

    Gallups: So it’s your belief with Congressman Steve Stockman’s input, with his outrage, with his desire to have another meeting with you. Plus the other contact that you made that’s going to open a door that you have been trying to open. They’re going to open that wide open for you now. Which is a huge door. You really believe that there is no stopping it now. That it is a steamroll from here. And very soon we should see some major, major things happening. It is that what you believe?

    Zullo: I do, I really do believe that. And it has nothing to do with filing a complaint like everybody have been yelling about. Look we’re not going that route, I made that clear. We have things that we’ve been working on and you’re starting to see some of those things come to manifestation. And that’s what we’re going to continue doing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJvG1hdKMho

  105. avatar
    Rickey February 25, 2015 at 2:02 pm #

    Curious George:

    Mike Zullo:
    “No. We had a small book that we published and the proceeds went to charity from that. Never a motivation to make money on this.”

    And where is the proof that he gave any money to charity? I seem to recall that at one point he said that he was giving his book money to his church.

    Not that there is likely to be much money. I don’t know how many Kindle books are sold by Amazon, but the book by Zullo and Corsi is #775,322 in sales.

  106. avatar
    bgansel9 February 25, 2015 at 2:11 pm #

    gorefan (quoting Zullo): “We have things that we’ve been working on and you’re starting to see some of those things come to manifestation. And that’s what we’re going to continue doing.”

    Which is why the CCP took an almost two year vacation from this investigation. LOL

  107. avatar
    Curious George February 25, 2015 at 2:18 pm #

    Rickey
    “And where is the proof that he gave any money to charity? I seem to recall that at one point he said that he was giving his book money to his church.”

    Ahhh, but to give money to your church, you must first receive the money. (The check just appeared out of nowhere, like the. $10k?)

  108. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater February 25, 2015 at 3:12 pm #

    Curious George: Rickey
    “And where is the proof that he gave any money to charity? I seem to recall that at one point he said that he was giving his book money to his church.”

    Ahhh, but to give money to your church, you must first receive the money. (The check just appeared out of nowhere, like the. $10k?)

    He did say he gave the money to his church and Gallups has multiple times claimed he was Zullo’s pastor. So in other words Gallups laundered the money for Zullo.

  109. avatar
    Curious George February 25, 2015 at 4:21 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
    February 25, 2015

    “He did say he gave the money to his church and Gallups has multiple times claimed he was Zullo’s pastor. So in other words Gallups laundered the money for Zullo. ”

    Did Gallups use all purpose Tide?

  110. avatar
    gorefan February 25, 2015 at 6:30 pm #

    RanTalbott: His ability to misunderstand something as simple as right justification is truly amazing

    This is what perfectly left justified would look like for a 1959 BC:

    http://www.brianhoekstra.com/resources/BirthCertificate.jpg

    And another 1959 BC that is not left justified

    http://www.wnd.com/images/1959hawaiibirthcertificate.JPG

    It totally depended on the typist.

  111. avatar
    RanTalbott February 25, 2015 at 7:00 pm #

    bgansel9: That’s like saying that before we went to the moon, many people believed folk tales that it was made of green cheese, so now, after humanity has been to the moon, it’s okay to think that it’s made of green cheese.

    Well, no, since one is a matter of objectively-verifiable fact, and the other is one of word usage to describe an artificial concept.

    It’s particularly ironic that you should claim that it’s “no longer common” on a blog where birth certificates are a major topic, since they’re one of the places where “race” is commonly used to describe “ethnicity”.

  112. avatar
    bgansel9 February 25, 2015 at 7:21 pm #

    RanTalbott: It’s particularly ironic that you should claim that it’s “no longer common” on a blog where birth certificates are a major topic, since they’re one of the places where “race” is commonly used to describe “ethnicity”.

    I have linked to material showing you that ethnicity is NOT race, it is social construct. It also goes deeper than race, peculiar mores of people from certain areas, dialects of languages… these are NOT race based issues, they are more specific to smaller populations. – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_contemporary_ethnic_groups

  113. avatar
    RanTalbott February 25, 2015 at 7:35 pm #

    Curious George: (The check just appeared out of nowhere, like the. $10k?)

    Yup. Courtesy of the nice folks at Fogbow, a couple of quotes from the second press debacle:

    “Coming back from Hawaii, for a month in a pile of envelopes was a check for 700 dollars, and subsequently another one came two weeks later for 630 bucks. I didn’t even know it was there.” Then he went on to say “The publisher [Paperless Press, LLC] called me and goes ‘Hey, did you cash the checks?’ I wasn’t expecting a check. Got about fourteen, fifteen hundred bucks total that went directly to my church.”

  114. avatar
    bgansel9 February 25, 2015 at 7:41 pm #

    “While race and ethnicity share an ideology of common ancestry, they differ in several ways. First of all, race is primarily unitary. You can only have one race, while you can claim multiple ethnic affiliations. You can identify ethnically as Irish and Polish, but you have to be essentially either black or white.
    “Race” and “Ethnicity” – PBS
    http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-experts-03-02.htmPBS

  115. avatar
    Keith February 25, 2015 at 8:06 pm #

    bgansel9:
    “While race and ethnicity share an ideology of common ancestry, they differ in several ways. First of all, race is primarily unitary. You can only have one race, while you can claim multiple ethnic affiliations. You can identify ethnically as Irish and Polish, but you have to be essentially either black or white.
    “Race” and “Ethnicity” – PBS
    http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-experts-03-02.htmPBS

    “Race” is an entirely sociological concept. There is no biological basis for ‘race’ what-so-ever. As such there is certainly more than just ‘black’ and ‘white’ – there is also ‘Australian Aboriginee’, ‘Asian’, ‘Native American’, ‘Aleuts’, etc. And many ethnicities within each ‘race; of course, as you say.

    The concept of ‘race’ was invented whole cloth in the 17th or 18th century to ‘justify’ the subjugation of so-called ‘inferior’ races by the so-called ‘superior’ races as slavery and suppression of colonial subjects was coming under intense attack.

    Although ‘race’ is a biologically non-existent, and sociologically artificial, racism is very, palpably real.

  116. avatar
    bgansel9 February 25, 2015 at 10:04 pm #

    Keith, while the whys and wherefores of how race came about can be debated and discussed, we can walk down the street and point to people and say what race they are. It is not a totally invented construct. Skin color is basically the differentiation of different races (there are of course facial features and body features of certain “races” but, skin color is an easy identifier of “race”). I am not saying it should be, it just is. If you have a problem with the quote I placed above, go complain to PBS, I didn’t write it.

    Furthermore, the discussion that Ran Talbott and I were having was not about racism. The discussion the ObligedRacist obviously was having WAS racist. I do not say that a black man can’t be president (Hell, I voted for Obama twice) and I am not saying that black people cannot be citizens. I am not one who believes skin color is an appropriate reason to treat people differently. I just think Ran Talbott and I got hung up on the word “ethnicity” and there are many links that state ethnicity is much more than race and is more about cultural (social) constructs such as dialects of language, and social mores of a smaller group, not an entire large grouping of people who share the same basic skin tone.

  117. avatar
    bgansel9 February 25, 2015 at 10:09 pm #

    Keith: The concept of ‘race’ was invented whole cloth in the 17th or 18th century to ‘justify’ the subjugation of so-called ‘inferior’ races by the so-called ‘superior’ races as slavery and suppression of colonial subjects was coming under intense attack.

    Surely you jest. – http://www.academia.edu/321674/The_Invention_of_Race_in_the_European_MIddle_Ages_I_Race_Studies_Modernity_and_the_Middle_Ages

    White Jesus was created long before the 17th Century.

  118. avatar
    Curious George February 25, 2015 at 10:23 pm #

    Mike Zullo
    “Coming back from Hawaii, for a month in a pile of envelopes was a check for 700 dollars, and subsequently another one came two weeks later for 630 bucks. I didn’t even know it was there.” Then he went on to say “The publisher [Paperless Press, LLC] called me and goes ‘Hey, did you cash the checks?’ I wasn’t expecting a check. Got about fourteen, fifteen hundred bucks total that went directly to my church.”

    Can you imagine what the CCCP financial books must look like? Money just appears. How could he not know that he would be getting paid for his book that was for sale? Arpaio has taught him well.

  119. avatar
    bgansel9 February 25, 2015 at 10:26 pm #

    Do we think Leonardo DaVinci’s The Last Supper depicts a Middle Eastern looking group of Jesus and Disciples? I see a lot of light skin and light brown / russett/ red hair: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Supper_(Leonardo_da_Vinci)#mediaviewer/File:%C3%9Altima_Cena_-_Da_Vinci_5.jpg

  120. avatar
    bgansel9 February 25, 2015 at 10:32 pm #

    Andrea del Verrocchio depiction of Mary and Jesus 1470: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Workshop_of_Andrea_del_Verrocchio,_1470s_Metropolitan_Museum_N-Y.jpg (Do they look Middle Eastern?)

  121. avatar
    bgansel9 February 25, 2015 at 10:33 pm #

    Curious George: Can you imagine what the CCCP financial books must look like? Money just appears. How could he not know that he would be getting paid for his book that was for sale? Arpaio has taught him well.

    I bet they don’t even keep books. No books, no way to catch them cooking books.

  122. avatar
    Krosis February 25, 2015 at 11:07 pm #

    I don’t see what the discussion about race has to do with “White Jesus”. Black Jesus was also created long before XVII century, in Ethiopia. Depictions of Jesus as having European features are not racist in themselves, they, like medieval paintings that depict figures from Antiquity in medieval chain mails and helmets, are simply a form of cultural adaptation.

  123. avatar
    Crustacean February 25, 2015 at 11:23 pm #

    That’s probably a safe bet. Has anyone ever asked Brian Reilly if he received a Form 1099 from the cold case posse? According to Mike Zullo (thank you, PPSIMMONS) Mr. Reilly and his wife were paid $1,200 for “services rendered.” That means at least one of them had to have been paid the $600 threshold.

    Zullo claims the CCP is exempt from filing 990’s, but they would still be required to issue 1099’s.

    bgansel9: I bet they don’t even keep books. No books, no way to catch them cooking books.

  124. avatar
    Crustacean February 25, 2015 at 11:35 pm #

    Correction: SOMEONE would be required to issue a 1099, presumably either the CCP or the MCSO.

  125. avatar
    Notorial Dissent February 26, 2015 at 12:50 am #

    I thought it was repeatedly stated and claimed that the CCP was a strictly volunteer non-profit, which means no one gets paid. As was pointed out above, I seriously doubt that the CCP ever had a bookkeeper, unless one volunteered, let alone kept books, who would they have had to do it since the posse consisted at most of maybe three people. It seems pretty obvious that they really weren’t all that much in to real organization, so there’s no real reason to think that they would have ever gotten that far or even bothered. I can’t imagine that they could be bothered to keep books anymore than Zullo could be bothered to keep his registration up to date.

    I’m sorry, you’re taking anything that either Zullo, or PPSIMMONS says or claims as anything but rumor??

  126. avatar
    Keith February 26, 2015 at 1:35 am #

    bgansel9: Keith, while the whys and wherefores of how race came about can be debated and discussed, we can walk down the street and point to people and say what race they are. It is not a totally invented construct. Skin color is basically the differentiation of different races (there are of course facial features and body features of certain “races” but, skin color is an easy identifier of “race”).

    First, my intention was not to challenge your discussion with Ran on either side but to add my own two cents.

    Second skin color is absolutely not a race indicator of any value what-so-ever. There are white skinned Africans (and not just descendants of Europeans). There are more dark skinned people in India than in the whole of Africa. Australian Aborigines have dark skin, wide noses, kinky hair just like the stereotypical African, yet they have been ‘out of Africa’ longer than Europeans (according to latest DNA evidence).

    If you put everyone on the planet on a continuum from white skin to dark skin and then identify a dark skinned individual some where on that continuum you absolutely cannot decide whether that individual is from Africa, India, Australia, or maybe even southern Europe, or the America’s (of course there are some extremely dark skinned individuals in Africa). An individual’s skin color is certainly one possible expression of the DNA inherited from the parents, and if the parents are dark skinned the odds are the child will be too. And yet skin color is not a racial marker, any more than blue eyes are. It is impossible on the grounds that there are NO defining racial characteristics in existence in human DNA. Race is CULTURAL tribalism, not BIOLOGICAL imperative. To pretend otherwise is to attempt to twist biology to the service of prejudice and bigotry. You will not find any credible human biology specialist that will recognize a genetic basis for race. Not one.

    Ethnicity identification is more complicated. Ethnicity is clearly understood to be a social construct; and while we may say that there are ethnic Hebrews and ethnic Palestinians, the difference revolves, fundamentally, around religion. Other ethnic divisions lie along hunter/farmer (i.e. nomads versus settled ) lines, like the Apache and the Navajo.

  127. avatar
    Keith February 26, 2015 at 1:41 am #

    bgansel9: Surely you jest.

    No, I don’t. And don’t call me Shirley.

    Contemporary scholars agree that “race” was a recent invention and that it was essentially a folk idea, not a product of scientific research and discovery. This is not new to anthropologists. Since the 1940s when Ashley Montagu argued against the use of the term “race” in science, a growing number of scholars in many disciplines have declared that the real meaning of race in American society has to do with social realities, quite distinct from physical variations in the human species. I argue that race was institutionalized beginning in the 18th century as a worldview, a set of culturally created attitudes and beliefs about human group differences.

    If you have a problem with the quote I placed above, go complain to PBS, I didn’t write it. (It was written by by Audrey Smedley in the Anthropology Newsletter, November 1997 and republished by PBS as background reading for its series “RACE – the power of an illusion” – link here)

  128. avatar
    Krosis February 26, 2015 at 1:53 am #

    Can we certainly agree that the “white parent + black parent = black offspring” rule for people like Obama, which seems to hold in the modern society of the United States, is arbitrary when it comes to internal logic and arose historically?

  129. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 26, 2015 at 7:45 am #

    I’m on the board of 2 non profit corporations, and I assure you, we keep books and we audit them.

    Maybe Spanky and Our Gang didn’t keep books when they put on a show, but they weren’t a registered corporation and they didn’t file for exemption with the IRS.

    Notorial Dissent: I thought it was repeatedly stated and claimed that the CCP was a strictly volunteer non-profit, which means no one gets paid.

  130. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 26, 2015 at 7:51 am #

    As i recall, she didn’t get a 1099.

    Crustacean: That’s probably a safe bet. Has anyone ever asked Brian Reilly if he received a Form 1099 from the cold case posse?

  131. avatar
    RanTalbott February 26, 2015 at 7:57 am #

    bgansel9: First of all, race is primarily unitary. You can only have one race, while you can claim multiple ethnic affiliations. You can identify ethnically as Irish and Polish, but you have to be essentially either black or white.

    If you’re going to cherry-pick from a discussion in which people expressed a variety of views, you shouldn’t have chosen one so blatantly dumb.

    There were 9 million Americans who self-identified as “mixed race” in the last census, and there are certainly millions more who either chose not to acknowledge it, or aren’t even aware that there are multiple races (in the sense in which you’re using the word) in their ancestry.

    So, no, it’s not true that “You can only have one race”. And you only “have to be essentially either black or white” in the eyes of people who believe in that sort of false dichotomy.

    Your own source on “the invention of race” agrees with me that its original meaning was based on what we would now call “ethnicity”, not simply differences in outward appearance. And that usage of it has persisted into modern times, long after the notion of dividing humanity into a half-dozen-or-so groups, based mostly on skin color, was invented.

    But, as Keith has pointed out, both are entirely artificial constructs. They just draw their purely-arbitrary boundaries in different places.

  132. avatar
    Notorial Dissent February 26, 2015 at 8:11 am #

    True, as they should. What I was referring to was that CCP was supposedly all volunteer which usually implies no one gets paid, and I’m quite aware of the reality of the CCP as opposed to the presented fantasy. I was simply saying, that what they said they were and did were things entirely different from what they actually did.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I’m on the board of 2 non profit corporations, and I assure you, we keep books and we audit them.

    Maybe Spanky and Our Gang didn’t keep books when they put on a show, but they weren’t a registered corporation and they didn’t file for exemption with the IRS.

  133. avatar
    Reality Check February 26, 2015 at 1:25 pm #

    The CCP was required to send Mrs. Reilly a 1099-MSC for payments for services of $600 or more in a single calendar year. As I recall that is exactly how much she was paid.

    http://www.irs.gov/uac/Form-1099-MISC,-Miscellaneous-Income-

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    As i recall, she didn’t get a 1099.

  134. avatar
    Reality Check February 26, 2015 at 3:00 pm #

    I should have written a 1099-MISC. The key thing is that Mr. and Mrs. Reilly needed to report the income on their tax return. I have it on Good Authority that they did. If the CCP didn’t file the 1099-MISC it was just sloppy accounting on its part. I am not sure what the penalty is for not reporting the payments to the IRS.

  135. avatar
    Crustacean February 26, 2015 at 5:15 pm #

    It’s really just a slap on the wrist, usually less than $100. I’m not sure why I even brought it up. I guess I was thinking that maybe this little malfeasance on Zullo’s part would trigger an audit, or something, and the dominoes would start falling. Silly me. Who gives a rat’s you-know-what about 1099s!

    In my years keeping books (more than I’d care to admit), I’ve learned to hate that stupid form. Nothing like dealing with people too lazy to get an EIN, but who freak out about having to give you their SSN. (Crusty’s bookkeeping tip o’ the day: before you pay an independent contractor the first time, get that W-9 back from them. No W-9, no check! And if you can pay them by credit card, do that instead, because then no 1099 is required).

    Reality Check: I am not sure what the penalty is for not reporting the payments to the IRS.

  136. avatar
    Reality Check February 27, 2015 at 11:41 am #

    Oddly enough I was just asked to provide a W9 fby my former employer with whom I have been doing business as a contractor for four years. I think that I had sent them one a long time ago but I gladly provided another with my EIN. I like to get paid!

    Crustacean: No W-9, no check! And if you can pay them by credit card, do that instead, because then no 1099 is required).

  137. avatar
    Reality Check February 27, 2015 at 11:55 am #

    I would like to hear Mark Gillar try to explain what Sheriff Arpaio said the other day which directly contradicts what Zullo has said multiple times.

  138. avatar
    jtmunkus February 27, 2015 at 12:15 pm #

    I am convinced that liar Gillar manufactured the false race code manual lie for liar Zullo (with liar Zullo’s enthusiastic consent). We know from truth teller Brian Reilly’s account of liar Zullo’s frustration before the liar Arpaio’s big event that liar Zullo had nothing to report coming down to the liar wire.

    Something like this:
    “Whattaya got for me, pretend cop Zullo?”
    “Well Sir, we’ve got some huge revelations! Let me get back with you after I consult with liar Gillar..”
    “Liar Mark, buddy, we’ve got to find something to focus this lying press conference on! Help me out, and I’ll send payola. Otherwise, the lying sheriff’s gonna be pissed!”
    “Okay, liar Mike. Don’t worry – I’m on it!”

    Result? Lying presser from liar Arpaio, liar Zullo, and liar extraordinaire Gillar.

  139. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) March 2, 2015 at 8:05 am #

    Reality Check: I would like to hear Mark Gillar try to explain what Sheriff Arpaio said the other day which directly contradicts what Zullo has said multiple times.

    Gillar isn’t trying to explain anything to non-birthers, and birthers would eat up any “explanation”, including “he’s trying to create a false sense of security for the conspiracy so they won’t know what’s hitting them and when” (probably adding some Hitler reference for good measure, as in “the US never told Hitler about their true military strategy either).

  140. avatar
    Keith March 4, 2015 at 5:47 am #

    RanTalbott: There were 9 million Americans who self-identified as “mixed race” in the last census, and there are certainly millions more who either chose not to acknowledge it, or aren’t even aware that there are multiple races (in the sense in which you’re using the word) in their ancestry.

    A conundrum…

    A Look at Race as a Social Construct