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The Irey letters

Irey says that he’s caring for a sick person, and only has access to email. So here is his latest missive (grammar errors in the original) with my replies in hyperlinked footnotes:

One thing I forgot to mention.

I never ever said or even implied that I was an expert in anything.1

You could compare me to a garage mechanic that knows you can’t put a Mercedes carborator into a ford. 2

That is what my evidence is all about.

Just common sense things.

Show me where I ever implied that I was an expert.

In Indiana I was accepted simply because I explained that I had 52 years experience in graphics and I typed for the Air Force for 4 years.

Just common experience … enough to know for example that all the letters on a typewriter match in size … etc.3

The Obama birth certificate is so bad that it does not take an expert to see that it was done in Adobe Photoshop and it was done badly.4

My understanding is that the majority of Photoshop users would see what I saw and not claim that they are experts.

They all know “unsharp mask” when they see it.

No two birth certificates should have the similarities that the forgers and Obama’s have.7

I hope to get the forger arrested to save her life.  Her testimony to reduce her own sentance would be the end for Obama … and I doubt she will live to tell it as Doug and I worried could happen to Fuddy if he revealed his financial evidence that she provided herself. 8

Remember Fuddy was also in a bad situation with excess … unexplainable income for the year she officiated the bc.5

Everybody lived in that plane accident but her … but it’s still possible that her death was faked … when they failed to kill her and they pulled her out of the water alive and made a deal … or are you certain she is dead?

She reported she paid off her mortgage that year.6

Isn’t that the first thing anyone would do if they had a windfall?

And you have to admit … Savanna Guthrie shot to a big job very soon after her pic of the bc and her claim that she felt the raised seal.

The CEO of GE owned NBC and he was also doing something with Obama who got his company off some big debt … I understand.

I could go on all day.9

I think your little soldiers all go overboard with the insults … and I see collusion in that.

Paul Irey


Notes:

1OK, then, we are all in agreement. Indeed you repeated Orly’s theme in your comments: “you don’t have to be an expert” to agree with my evidence. But there you are wrong. The kind of argument you make is an expert’s argument. It basically says that “a legitimate document would look this way, but Obama’s is different.” In order to say that, you have to be an expert on all the different ways that legitimate documents look and you don’t come close, nor does anyone on the birther side. “Common sense”  is another label  for “typical ignorance,” and in your case and you are completely inexperienced in the wide range of what normal documents look like.  You know about “unsharp mask” but you DON’T know about MRC compression which does the same thing. Your lack of expertise led to a mistake.

2 You are more like the guy who works on his own car and thinks he knows about all cars. Did you read this article: “Mercedes-Benz Turns to Ford for Help on Three-Cylinder Engine”? Mercedes uses a Mitsubishi engine in its Smart. Mercedes supplied engines for Chrysler in the Jeep Grand Cherokee. You, however, can’t even spell carburetor.

3But you weren’t allowed to testify about electronic documents because you don’t have a clue what scanners and compression algorithms do. You didn’t approach the problem objectively and scientifically comparing results on the Obama document with results with unquestioned documents. Your biggest problem in 2011-2012 is that you had no clue what process made the Obama certificate, so you couldn’t say what was normal, without knowing all possible versions of normal from different hardware and software combinations. You just relied on common sense (i.e. ignorance) and let your bias make the conclusions.

4But it really challenges credulity to say that the President of the United States (where the CIA, the Secret Service, the Courts and the media are ALL in on the conspiracy) would release a badly done Photoshop birth certificate. If you weren’t so biased you would see how crazy that sounds. Birthers fantasize scenarios to explain that absurd idea; however, what we see in the White House PDF is precisely what one gets by scanning a real document to PDF, rotating it in Mac Preview and saving. All of those “common sense” things that to you say Photoshop (that really make no sense in Photoshop—no birther has ever been able to make a credible Obama PDF using Photoshop or explain why someone would past individual letters instead of words or phrases, or even use the unsharp mask in the first place) are exactly what is normal in a Xerox scan. The publicly available Xerox results demolish your early results, and prove that “common sense” leads to the wrong answer.

5The facts in Fuddy’s financial disclosure statement show no inconsistencies, and no unexplained income. All it shows is that her property increased in value over several years, and that she refinanced it. In this case, even “common sense” is thrown aside to make the absurd claim that she had unexplained income. I have an article on this (read the Update at the end).

And yes, I an certain that Fuddy is dead. There was a autopsy!

6You’re spreading false rumors. There was no windfall and she didn’t pay off her mortgage. She had two mortgages, one of which she refinanced. She used her Home Equity Line of Credit to pay off credit card debt, thereby increasing her HELOC balance by the same amount. Now, are you going to keep repeating this lie now that it has been explained to you?

7You know about “unsharp mask” but you DON’T know about MRC compression which does the same thing. Your ignorance led to a mistake. You’re making arguments that say “two certificates are different” therefore one is a forgery; and at the same time you are arguing “two certificates are the same” therefore both are forgeries. Both statements require expert skill to make, and you admit that you are not an expert. The fact that you’re taking contradictory positions doesn’t phase you.

8I forgot to mention that your conspiracy world includes the “Birther Princess.” You are so consumed with conspiracy theories that EVERYBODY pretty much is in on it. That’s an insane way to look at the world. The paranoid thinks the whole world is out to get them; the paranoid style conspiracy theorist believes the whole world is in on the conspiracy.

You believe you have iron-clad evidence that Obama is a usurper. Why are you still alive? You can’t explain that, can you? You’re an old guy. Old guys die all the time. Yet you seem to be just fine.

9 And you would be wrong all day.

95 Responses to The Irey letters

  1. avatar
    Curious George August 31, 2015 at 10:00 am #

    Mr. Irey,

    Doc has just presented you with a road map back to the world of reality. Please use it. Maybe you can also help to rehabilitate your Birther associates in the process.

  2. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater August 31, 2015 at 10:13 am #

    Wait he said he’s never put himself out as an expert? So what was that resume fluffing all about with his years working on typewriters and the years he spent on a mac and adobe products. Obviously it was an appeal to authority.

  3. avatar
    Pete August 31, 2015 at 10:20 am #

    Irey now pleads that he never claimed to be an expert.

    And yet he wants to be admitted as an “expert” in court testimony.

    If he’s not an expert, then his opinion is no better than anyone else’s, is it?

    The fact is, as the host of this site stated, here’s something we can now finally all agree on: Paul Irey is not an expert.

    He particularly is not an expert in the functioning of the Xerox WorkCentre.

    I have a question for Mr. Irey. He’s never answered a single one of my other questions, but hey. I’ll boldface this one.

    If you are not an expert – and you freely admit the fact – then why do you think anyone should listen to your opinion? If you don’t claim to be an expert, then why do think you should be admitted as one in court?

    Why do you discount the possibility that others (who are well-informed) are completely correct about Obama’s birth certificate and you are completely wrong?

    Why do you (falsely) accuse other people of serious crimes (including forgery and “treason”) based on your own uninformed, NON-EXPERT opinion?

    Well, that turned into more than one question, but they’re all sort of rephrases of the same idea.

  4. avatar
    The Magic M August 31, 2015 at 10:29 am #

    You, however, can’t even spell carburetor.

    Irey thinks he’s Mona Lisa Vito and Vinny Gambini all rolled into one. [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104952/ for those who don’t get the reference]

    Irey: I hope to get the forger arrested to save her life. Her testimony to reduce her own sentance would be the end for Obama

    If you think your made-up almighty conspiracy can’t suicide someone who’s in jail, you obviously ignore the Sandra Bland case.

    Irey: Just common experience … enough to know for example that all the letters on a typewriter match in size

    And you still assume a PDF rendition of a scan of a photocopy of a document in a binder has to have the same perfection and flatness as the original document.
    That is not “common sense” or “common experience”. That is confirmation bias mixed with incompetence.

    Irey: Show me where I ever implied that I was an expert.

    http://www.obamareleaseyourrecords.com/2011/06/50-year-typographer-and-document-expert.html
    You are repeatedly being called an expert and never correct the host.

  5. avatar
    Lupin August 31, 2015 at 10:58 am #

    I certainly would NEVER call myself an expert on photoshop, but I am solely responsible for doing all our book covers with / in photoshop (4.0 at first then 7.0 later) since 2003. That’s I think in excess of 500 books.

    Tell Mr Irey (aka Dimitry) that I looked at the same image others have seen (leaving aside the fact that that image is irrelevant to the authenticity of the underlying data, attested many times) and i, for one, do NOT see a fake, or a forgery assembled from different pieces — like my book covers which may have up to 20+ different layers — with photoshop.

    Seriously. To this old time photoshop user, there is nothing that screams forgery.

  6. avatar
    Pete August 31, 2015 at 11:03 am #

    Paul Irey talks about common sense, but in his case, it simply means (as others have noted) a complete lack of knowledge of the subject at hand combined with his own bias.

    And yes, Paul, you are completely and entirely ignorant of the subject at hand.

    Again, that’s not an insult.

    Real common sense would tell you that as many political enemies as Mr. Obama has, if there had been any real evidence whatsoever to the claims he was ineligible or his birth certificate was a “forgery,” that would’ve been seized upon by credible people in an extremely public way LONG ago.

    If it could be proven that Obama was ineligible, why would his political enemies not have done that?

    [Nutjob answer: “They’re all in on it.”]

    Sorry, Paul, but politics just doesn’t work that way. Republicans have attacked Obama and his associates as hard as they could for such things as the Benghazi affair, Clinton’s email server, the list goes on and on.

    If there was the slightest REAL evidence his birth certificate was forged, or that he was otherwise ineligible, we would’ve had endless hearings. That’s what genuine common sense would tell you.

    As for “everyone being in on it,” common sense would AGAIN tell you that’s a fantasy.

    Literally a hundred different court judges of all persuasions? Leaders of both parties, all the way through the country? Everyone in Congress, including the US Senate (with 100 Senators plus all their staff) and the US House of Representatives (with 435 Representatives and all their staff?) Literally everybody in the FBI, the CIA and the NSA? Everyone at this web site? An ordinary citizen in Hawaii who seems to be completely uninvolved in politics or any public involvement of any note whatsoever? Essentially all of the 42,280 (according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics) journalists in the United States?

    Yes, yes, I know. They’re all controlled by the White House with an iron fist.

    But if that’s true, they why couldn’t the government stop Edward Snowden? Why couldn’t they stop the Watergate leakers? Why couldn’t Bill Clinton stop all of the Monica Lewinsky reporting, that resulted in him becoming the second President in history to be impeached? Why couldn’t Clinton stop the daily parade of lurid reporting about his semen on a blue dress?

    If any President ever had reason to stifle the reporting, that would’ve been it. And yet he was completely, absolutely powerless to do so.

    Even if you’re a total conspiracy nut, the fact that no one has leaked anything also thoroughly defies the common sense you claim to possess.

    Real common sense would tell you that you’re not going to keep a criminal conspiracy of such unbelievably vast magnitude without people talking.

    Real common sense would also tell you that if the President of the United States wanted to forge a document, he’d have access to someone who would do it in such a way that it would be undetectable.

    Real common sense would tell you, in fact, that ANYONE who had the expertise to Photoshop such a document would do an unobjectionable job on it.

    Real common sense would tell you that the artifacts in the birth certificate aren’t the kinds of things anyone with Photoshop would ever do. Create a forgery by pasting individual letters sort of at-random on different layers? Really?

    Real common sense would tell you that if anyone HAD Photoshopped such a document, they wouldn’t have released it as a multiple-layer PDF. They would’ve released it as a flat JPEG.

    We could go on and on with this.

    The fact is, Paul, not only are you not an expert (and thank you for acknowledging that), but even your so-called “common sense” isn’t any good.

  7. avatar
    Bonsall Obot August 31, 2015 at 11:11 am #

    I heard that whole thing in my head as an auto-tuned singer and IT WAS AWESOME.

  8. avatar
    Pete August 31, 2015 at 11:25 am #

    lol

  9. avatar
    Pete August 31, 2015 at 11:56 am #

    I was just clicking around to see if there was anything new, and accidentally ended up on Kevin Davidson’s biography page.

    Paul, that you admit that your sole expertise basically comes from having used a typewriter, and they you claim that your opinion is better than Kevin Davidson – who is a retired software developer who actually worked on electronic systems for handling birth certificate records – is laughable.

    And it’s not just Kevin Davidson. There are other genuine experts, included the three PROFESSIONALS that World Net Daily hired to examine Obama’s PDF, all of whom said they saw nothing there that was any indication of anything unusual.

    In other words, you (finally) admit that you’re not an expert. Well, other people are, and they say you’re full of you-know-what.

  10. avatar
    Curious George August 31, 2015 at 1:17 pm #

    Mr. Irey:

    “One thing I forgot to mention.
    I never ever said or even implied that I was an expert in anything.”

    Oh really?

    Then Mr. Irey, how do you explain this article written by Jerome Corsi for WND on June 7, 2011:

    “Expert: Obama doc is ‘proof’ – of fraud
    Typeface analysis shows images come from different machines”

    Twice in this WND article you are called an “expert.” Where oh where did Jerome Corsi get the idea that you are an expert, which you now deny? Is this just another exaggeration by Corsi, or did you present yourself to Corsi as an expert?

    According to Corsi, your buddy Doug Vogt is “An international expert on scanners and document-imaging software…” in an article published May 31, 2011 by WND, entitled, “Criminal complaint charges Obama birth record ‘forged’ 22 page brief filed with FBI claims ‘irrefutable proof’ document a fraud”

    In both articles by Corsi, you and Vogt are referred to as “experts.” In both articles neither you or Vogt discussed “pattern matching” technology that could result in character substitution when creating a PDF utilizing a Xerox Work Center machine. According to computer scientist David Kriesel the issue has existed since 2006. As “experts” you both seemed to be oblivious to this important variable in the PDF workflow process in 2011. As “experts” did you not know about the possibility of character substitution issues or was the issue ignored because it just didn’t fit your agenda?

  11. avatar
    wrecking ball August 31, 2015 at 2:14 pm #

    Pete:
    Irey now pleads that he never claimed to be an expert.

    but he seems content to let others give him that status:

    “Graphics expert Paul Irey had and has the evidence that proves beyond a shadow of doubt …”

    http://www.westernjournalism.com/57-year-graphics-expert-obama-birth-certificate-forged/

    “Expert: Obama doc is ‘proof’ – of fraud”

    http://www.wnd.com/2011/06/308397/

    “50-year typographer and document expert Paul Irey explains in detail his computer analysis…”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJqLe0qBjHs

    “Paul Irey is one of the graphics experts who analyzed…”

    http://nesaranews.blogspot.com/2012/10/obama-birth-certificate-graphics-expert.html

    “Well, Paul Irey, a graphics and typography expert, has come forward…”

    http://mrconservative.com/2013/11/27688-57-year-expert-reveals-proof-obama-forged-his-birth-certificate/

    “Document expert Paul Irey sent out the following…”

    http://giveusliberty1776.blogspot.com/2014/10/preview-document-experts-release.html

    “Vogt, with researcher and document expert Paul Irey, …”

    http://canadafreepress.com/article/60406

    ………

  12. avatar
    Benji Franklin August 31, 2015 at 2:54 pm #

    Pete: Paul Irey talks about common sense, but in his case, it simply means (as others have noted) a complete lack of knowledge of the subject at hand combined with his own bias.

    Prior to the Age of the Internet, practically every bar, barber shop, and soapbox sported a few critically ignorant blowhards scoffing at conventionally attained expertise and and using a machete of cynicism to carve out a ‘common sense’ contrary and conclusory explanation for almost any notable event, or celebrated bit of knowledge.

    “Yeah, I’ve SEEN your SO-CALLED Calculus, and…and I’ve HEARD more than enough about your SUPPOSED Periodic Table of the Elements, but don’t tell me EITHER of those NOTIONS had ANYTHING to do with getting us to the Moon, cause I KNOW BETTER! Looky HERE! See this NASA picher of this moonscape where, you can damn near see a little shadow or somethin’ that looks pre-zactly almost like…. like….. well, like I DON’T KNOW WHAT ALL, but THERE IT IS! See it? Do yuh? Do yuh? Okay, how’d you splain that? How? How? Well, THAT’S how we really got to the Moon, dude! An’ don’t tell me it isn’t.”

    How better way can there be to avoid the tedium of acquiring real expertise and its constraining stranglehold on unwanted natural alternatives to your own preferred delusionaly reality, than to, without the distraction of needing to learn something, profoundly just KNOW BETTER ? TO A CERTAINTY!

    Paul is willfully ignorant and determined to have his ignorance decide certain Constitutional issues. The Framers would fear such silliness.

  13. avatar
    Pete August 31, 2015 at 4:13 pm #

    Well put, Benji.

    I must confess that I had somewhat forgotten that clueless know-it-alls have always been with us.

    I sometimes lament that the internet has given such people a global voice. Fortunately, it’s also given others the same global reach to expose the nonsense of their claims.

  14. avatar
    gorefan August 31, 2015 at 5:56 pm #

    So any guesses as to the FBI’s response?

    A) Accept his papers, thank him and throw them away after he leaves.

    B) Tell him they’ll look into it when in fact they know they won’t.

    C) Tell him it is not an FBI matter and suggest he go to his congressman.

  15. avatar
    scott e August 31, 2015 at 6:13 pm #

    do i sense a little panic here ?

    [I don’t know. Is your heart palpitating; do you feel shortness of breath? Dizziness, feelings of unreality? Doc.]

  16. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater August 31, 2015 at 6:45 pm #

    scott e:
    do i sense a little panic here ?

    Oh look coward boy is back. Yes a state of panic among the birthers who realize Zullo has been stringing them along the whole time. He tossed all your so-called evidence and says he’s now creating new evidence. That’s when he’s not giving depositions in the Melendres case. Poor Scotty.

  17. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater August 31, 2015 at 6:47 pm #

    It’s the same nonsense Zullo does pretending he’s a cop allowing people to call him Lt. Zullo and never correcting anyone on the record.

  18. avatar
    Pete August 31, 2015 at 7:00 pm #

    Flash forward to 16-1/2 months from now, January 2017:

    Dr. Conspiracy: Congratulations to our new President. Well, as promised I am now wrapping up this blog and will be making it an archive. Anyone have any last words?

    scott e: Do I sense some panic here?

    PAUL EDWARD IREY: You guys are toast. Just wait. The new President’s gonna…

  19. avatar
    Curious George August 31, 2015 at 7:05 pm #

    Whohooo! scott e’s back. Show that birther experts aren’t experts and the birther faithful panic and come back in desperation. We feel your pain scott e!

  20. avatar
    Joey August 31, 2015 at 7:33 pm #

    scott e:
    do i sense a little panic here ?

    [I don’t know. Is your heart palpitating; do you feel shortness of breath? Dizziness, feelings of unreality? Doc.]
    April 6, 2011:
    DONALD TRUMP:
    “I am saying I want to see the birth certificate. It’s very simple. I want to see the birth certificate. How come his own family doesn’t know which hospital he was born in? How come- forget about birth certificates. Let’s say there’s no birth certificate. How come in the hospital itself, okay? This is one of the…in the hospital itself, there’s no records of his birth. In other words, it doesn’t say how much they paid, where is the doctor, here’s your room bill. You know, all the

    MEREDITH VIEIRA:
    You’ve been privy to all of this to know this?

    DONALD TRUMP:
    Well, I have people that actually have been studying it and they cannot believe what they’re talking.

    MEREDITH VIEIRA:
    You have people now out there searching- I mean, in Hawaii?

    DONALD TRUMP:
    Absolutely. And they cannot believe what they’re finding. And I’m serious.”

    http://therightscoop.com/trump-my-people-in-hawaii-cant-believe-what-they-are-finding/#ixzz3kLulPvXf

  21. avatar
    Rickey August 31, 2015 at 8:19 pm #

    If I were to receive a windfall, the last thing I would do with it is pay off my mortgage, which has an interest rate of 3.75%. I would us the windfall to pay off any high-interest loans or credit cards that I might have.

    Of course, as Doc noted, Fuddy didn’t pay off her mortgage.

  22. avatar
    Matt August 31, 2015 at 9:38 pm #

    gorefan:
    So any guesses as to the FBI’s response?

    A) Accept his papers, thank him and throw them away after he leaves.

    B) Tell him they’ll look into it when in fact they know they won’t.

    C) Tell him it is not an FBI matter and suggest he go to his congressman.

    They are a professional bunch. The response will be C; but over coffee in the break room, they will tell each other they shoulda done A or B.

  23. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 31, 2015 at 10:45 pm #

    Actually, scott e has been posting for a while, but I have been deleting them. This time, I wanted to get a little snark in.

    Curious George: Whohooo! scott e’s back.

  24. avatar
    Slartibartfast September 1, 2015 at 12:04 am #

    Mr. Irey said: “I think your little soldiers all go overboard with the insults … and I see collusion in that.

    Mr. Irey,

    Speaking for myself (and I haven’t been colluding with anyone—this is the first time I’ve engaged a birther in months), I called you a “fool” and an “idiot”. Let’s examine that.

    I made two challenges which anyone with a solid case should have been able to meet: a reason why you could ignore the Hawai’i DoH and scientific evidence of a crime. It is not unreasonable to ask that someone accusing the sitting President of the United States of wrongdoing (many of your compatriots even say “treason”) be able to meet both of these standards.

    However, you have no argument as to why the word of the Hawai’i Department of Health should not be respected as mandated by the Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution, yet you ignore their repeated and unequivocal claims that President Obama was born in Hawai’i. This is extremely foolish. If you don’t wish to be called a fool, then you should stop acting in such foolish ways.

    Furthermore, you cannot provide scientific evidence of… well… anything, let alone evidence that the crime of forgery was committed (pro tip: look up the elements of that crime in a legal dictionary—there are some that you could not possibly fulfill even if you had irrefutable proof of everything you claim happened). In fact, your entire scenario is totally and completely implausible. Lots of people must have acted in ways that make no sense in order for what you say to be true. This is unquestionably idiotic.

    So, Mr. Irey, I have a simple defense for your complaint about my calling you names: everything I called you was completely justified because you are truly an idiotic fool and a foolish idiot.

  25. avatar
    Pete September 1, 2015 at 2:09 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Actually, scott e has been posting for a while, but I have been deleting them.

    He deserves it.

  26. avatar
    Pete September 1, 2015 at 2:11 am #

    Slartibartfast: I made two challenges which anyone with a solid case should have been able to meet…

    Kevin, you tried reasoning with a birther. That was your mistake, right there.

  27. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG September 1, 2015 at 3:09 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Actually, scott e has been posting for a while, but I have been deleting them.

    Shame john can’t go into that box was well.

  28. avatar
    RanTalbott September 1, 2015 at 7:10 am #

    And you have to admit … Savanna Guthrie shot to a big job very soon after her pic of the bc and her claim that she felt the raised seal.

    Well, no, you don’t have to admit that. From a journalistic perspective, the talk show job would arguably be considered a step down from being WH correspondent. And it was hardly “shot to”, since she’d been with the network for most of her career of almost 20 years.

    The CEO of GE owned NBC and he was also doing something with Obama who got his company off some big debt … I understand.

    As usual, you “understand” wrong.

    I think your little soldiers all go overboard with the insults

    And I’m quite sure you don’t see the irony in that statement.

    It’s very hard to “go overboard with the insults” when confronting an incompetent fool with delusions of adequacy, who tosses around accusations of fraud, corruption, and even treason, based on “evidence” that would be considered pathetic at a high school debate. You haven’t gotten a tenth of what you deserve for your vile actions.

    … and I see collusion in that.

    You “see” a lot of things that aren’t there.

  29. avatar
    HistorianDude September 1, 2015 at 9:32 am #

    “You could compare me to a garage mechanic that knows you can’t put a Mercedes carborator into a ford.”

    When was the last time you saw a carburetor in either a Mercedes or a Ford? There may still be some very obscure auto makers, primarily in Africa and Russia, who still build cars with carburetors. But all other production vehicles today use computerized fuel injection systems to feed fuel and air into the combustion chamber of the engine.

    The reference to carburetors is ironically appropriate for a old man who believes that his experience as a typist with the Air Force, or as a typesetter prepares him to have a useful opinion about an electronic document created with MRC and JBIG2 compression. Paul’s performance here is pretty much the same as we should expect from a 1960s auto mechanic suddenly presented with a 2010 engine.

    The only honest opinion would be “I have absolutely no idea what I’m even looking at.”

  30. avatar
    CRJ September 1, 2015 at 9:40 am #

    So.. Let me see here. We have “experts” throwing “non experts” under the bus?

    No wait! “Non-experts” throwing “Non-experts” under the bus?

    No wait! “Perkins Coe Document expert throwing their client Obama under the bus in Alabama?”

    No wait! “We have Republicans and Democrats United under U.S. Sen Res. 511 throwing everyone else under the bus? ”

    No Wait! ” We have Sen. John McCain, Sen. Hillary Clinton, and Sen Barack Obama together in an agreement about altering what didnt need to be altered and was common sense before because 8 attempts to change it since 2003 failed?”

    No wait! ” The COTUS clearly has the same qualifications for Representatives, Senators, and President… That’s it? ”

    Methinks ye protests to much … about common sense.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lady_doth_protest_too_much,_methinks

    Constitution Reckoning
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ITCr420K4i8

    Hold it..Wait! ” Ye have spelled a word incorrectly God and thus have lost all credibility of being perfect”,. . said the devil who was the accuser, “and I shall have thy throne.”

    Hold it.. wait! “Mike Zullo, who is the lead investigator for the Cold Case Posse, filed a detailed affidavit with the Alabama Supreme Court, giving chapter and verse on the problems with Barack Obama’s long-form birth certificate. In that document, he cited to Reed Hayes, a Certified Document Examiner in Honolulu, Hawaii. Zullo says that Hayes produced a 40-page, currently still-confidential, opinion spelling out the problems with the birth certificate..so there are really no experts in law enforcement training or document experts that have ever seen the real Long Form Birth Certificate, so there’s nothing to compare it to and the one from Hawaii is dead so.. She doesn’t count any more either?”

    Hold it wait! “Obama’s second term is over and new evidence released … Wait… Who cares? “

  31. avatar
    Keith September 1, 2015 at 9:45 am #

    HistorianDude (quoting Mr. Irey): “You could compare me to a garage mechanic that knows you can’t put a Mercedes carborator into a ford.”

    My dad was a pretty darn good Diesel mechanic. On the occasions that the mine he worked at went out on strike, he would usually get some work at the Mercedes dealer that a friend of his owned.

    One day he had finished giving a tuneup to a car but he didn’t have the key to start the engine to test it out (he had left it in the office). As a lark, he pulled out his own car key – a 15yo Ford Falcon Ranchero – and put it in the ignition. It turned easily and the engine started perfectly. The Ford key also locked/unlocked the doors and the trunk with no trouble at all.

    So there.

  32. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater September 1, 2015 at 10:19 am #

    CRJ: Mike Zullo, who is the lead investigator for the Cold Case Posse, filed a detailed affidavit with the Alabama Supreme Court, giving chapter and verse on the problems with Barack Obama’s long-form birth certificate. In that document, he cited to Reed Hayes, a Certified Document Examiner in Honolulu, Hawaii. Zullo says that Hayes produced a 40-page, currently still-confidential, opinion spelling out the problems with the birth certificate..so there are really no experts in law enforcement training or document experts that have ever seen the real Long Form Birth Certificate, so there’s nothing to compare it to and the one from Hawaii is dead so.. She doesn’t count any more either?”

    Zullo isn’t an expert in law enforcement training. He spent the last 20 years or so running his family used car business. He is not a credentialed policeman in Arizona or anywhere for that matter. Reed Hayes’ report will never go public probably because it doesn’t actually say what he wants it to. Zullo made a lot of errors in his circular filed affidavit.

    Who doesn’t count anymore either? Who is she?

    No wait Cody Judy needs to stop dropping acid.

  33. avatar
    Curious George September 1, 2015 at 10:22 am #

    CRJ,

    “So.. Let me see here. We have “experts” throwing “non experts” under the bus?”

    No, we have a so called “expert” denying that he has ever claimed to be an “expert” at anything.

  34. avatar
    Curious George September 1, 2015 at 10:28 am #

    Paul Edward Irey:

    “You could compare me to a garage mechanic that knows you can’t put a Mercedes carborator (sic) into a ford.”

    Let’s ask Kommandant Zullo about this. I understand he is an expert when it comes to used cars. 🙂

  35. avatar
    Jim September 1, 2015 at 10:34 am #

    CRJ:
    So.. Let me see here. We have “experts” throwing “non experts” under the bus?

    BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Sorry CRJ, once you claimed that computer standards were a sign of forgery, any claims you had of being an expert went flying out the window.

    What we have here is people who know a heck of a lot more than you laughing at you. That’s basically it.

  36. avatar
    John Reilly September 1, 2015 at 11:14 am #

    Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t CRJ a convicted domestic terrorist who threatened to blow up an auditorium filled with church going folks?

    And I see John is back as well. Isn’t he the fellow who’s solution to illegal immigration was to shoot men, women and children?

  37. avatar
    jtmunkus September 1, 2015 at 11:59 am #

    At least the perpetual liar and ignorant seditionist Paul Irey chose the path every self-righteous birther fool should: SELF-DEPORTATION.

    Let’s hope the rest of this ancient, dying breed does what admitted fraud Paul Irey did, take their USA socialism checks while bitching about commies, and get the fuck out of our land.

  38. avatar
    bob September 1, 2015 at 3:26 pm #

    John Reilly:
    Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t CRJ a convicted domestic terrorist who threatened to blow up an auditorium filled with church going folks?

    Technically, Judy is a convicted burglar because he entered the fireside with the intent to commit a felony. That is the exact charge to which Judy pleaded.

    Judy was never charged with or convicted of the federal crime of domestic terrorism. “Domestic terrorist” is colloquially sufficient but not precise.

    But, yeah, ask a random person whether someone who makes a bomb threat at a church event filled with thousands of people is a terrorist, and you would be hard pressed to find someone who would disagree with that title.

    And in anticipation of Judy’s denial: His denial also makes him a false witness.

  39. avatar
    bob September 1, 2015 at 4:43 pm #

    jtmunkus:
    At least the perpetual liar and ignorant seditionist Paul Irey chose the path every self-righteous birther fool should: SELF-DEPORTATION.

    Actually, Irey lied about that as well: He moved to the New York area.

  40. avatar
    roadburner September 1, 2015 at 4:57 pm #

    Paul Edward Irey::

    “You could compare me to a garage mechanic that knows you can’t put a Mercedes carborator (sic) into a ford.”

    actually, if the bore size of the carb was right for the capacity of the engine (not overly big or too restrictive), it was jetted right, and had the correct type of manifold adaptor made to mount it without any inlet air leaks, there is no reason whatsoever why a merc carb couldn’t be used on a ford.

    sorry paul, you’ve strayed into my area of expertise – i’m a mechanic, and the go-to guy in my area for carb work on motorcycles.

  41. avatar
    Slartibartfast September 1, 2015 at 5:04 pm #

    And, once again, we see that even birther analogies are fundamentally flawed.

    roadburner: actually, if the bore size of the carb was right for the capacity of the engine (not overly big or too restrictive), it was jetted right, and had the correct type of manifold adaptor made to mount it without any inlet air leaks, there is no reason whatsoever why a merc carb couldn’t be used on a ford.

    sorry paul, you’ve strayed into my area of expertise – i’m a mechanic, and the go-to guy in my area for carb work on motorcycles.

  42. avatar
    HistorianDude September 2, 2015 at 8:15 am #

    CRJ: Hold it.. wait! “Mike Zullo, who is the lead investigator for the Cold Case Posse, filed a detailed affidavit with the Alabama Supreme Court, giving chapter and verse on the problems with Barack Obama’s long-form birth certificate. In that document, he cited to Reed Hayes, a Certified Document Examiner in Honolulu, Hawaii. Zullo says that Hayes produced a 40-page, currently still-confidential, opinion spelling out the problems with the birth certificate..so there are really no experts in law enforcement training or document experts that have ever seen the real Long Form Birth Certificate, so there’s nothing to compare it to and the one from Hawaii is dead so.. She doesn’t count any more either?”

    Actually… Reed Hayes is never even mentioned by name in the “affidavit” that Zullo filed in Alabama. Ignoring that Hayes is also not an expert on any issue having to do with digital document forensics, to this day Zullo has released a total of three sentences form the alleged “40 page report,” none of which actually detail any problems with the PDF.

  43. avatar
    John Reilly September 2, 2015 at 10:24 am #

    bob: Technically, Judy is a convicted burglar because he entered the fireside with the intent to commit a felony. That is the exact charge to which Judy pleaded.

    Judy was never charged with or convicted of the federal crime of domestic terrorism. “Domestic terrorist” is colloquially sufficient but not precise.

    But, yeah, ask a random person whether someone who makes a bomb threat at a church event filled with thousands of people is a terrorist, and you would be hard pressed to find someone who would disagree with that title.

    And in anticipation of Judy’s denial: His denial also makes him a false witness.

    Thanks for the clarification. But’s he still a felon.

  44. avatar
    Pete September 2, 2015 at 10:39 am #

    …to this day Zullo has released a total of three sentences form the alleged “40 page report,” none of which actually detail any problems with the PDF.

    Perhaps we should state the obvious at this point.

    There ARE no “problems” with the PDF. Period.

    Fugayzi, fugazi, it’s a wazzy, it’s a woozy, it’s a >sweesweeswee< fairy dust. It doesn't exist, it's never landed, it is no matter, it’s not on the elemental chart, it’s not &%#* real.

  45. avatar
    Curious George September 2, 2015 at 1:09 pm #

    Pete,
    “Perhaps we should state the obvious at this point.

    There ARE no “problems” with the PDF. Period.”

    There are no problems with the information provided and verified by Hawaii about President Obama, however it would be difficult to say with absolute certainty without the actual document scanned and converted to a PDF that there are no problems with the PDF representation according to what Mr. Kriesel has stated in his video about the PDF conversion process.

  46. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 2, 2015 at 1:50 pm #

    I was told that Mike Zullo attributed a number of findings that he presented at the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers convention to Reed Hayes, including things that Zullo published prior to having any connection with Hayes.

    As you may recall, the Zullo presentation is in two parts, a public and a private session. The public session video link is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=PwDqXFCy0Bo

    HistorianDude: Actually… Reed Hayes is never even mentioned by name in the “affidavit” that Zullo filed in Alabama. Ignoring that Hayes is also not an expert on any issue having to do with digital document forensics, to this day Zullo has released a total of three sentences form the alleged “40 page report,” none of which actually detail any problems with the PDF.

  47. avatar
    Pete September 2, 2015 at 3:47 pm #

    Curious George: it would be difficult to say with absolute certainty without the actual document scanned and converted to a PDF that there are no problems with the PDF representation according to what Mr. Kriesel has stated in his video about the PDF conversion process.

    Let me restate that, then.

    There are no problems with the PDF that would indicate in the slightest way, shape, or form that the PDF itself is deceitfully constructed, rather than being an actual scan of the President’s birth certificate, and there are no problems that would indicate in the slightest way, shape or form that the document itself, thus imaged, is anything other than a bona-fide, state-issued, accurate representation of the President’s birth in Hawaii in August of 1961.

    There. Satisifed?

  48. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater September 2, 2015 at 5:35 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I was told that Mike Zullo attributed a number of findings that he presented at the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers convention to Reed Hayes, including things that Zullo published prior to having any connection with Hayes.

    As you may recall, the Zullo presentation is in two parts, a public and a private session. The public session video link is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=PwDqXFCy0Bo

    Not surprising he was retconning Hayes to try to give his nonsense credibility. He did the same thing with the number of tests pappitt ran pre xerox work flow to tests he supposedly ran with the xerox work flow well after he said it was of no concern

  49. avatar
    Northland10 September 2, 2015 at 6:30 pm #

    HistorianDude: Actually… Reed Hayes is never even mentioned by name in the “affidavit” that Zullo filed in Alabama.Ignoring that Hayes is also not an expert on any issue having to do with digital document forensics, to this day Zullo has released a total of three sentences form the alleged “40 page report,” none of which actually detail any problems with the PDF.

    At least Zullo’s affidavit was in support of the party that prevailed. Oh wait…

    The birthers seem to think that if it is filed, it has some legal standing because it’s “on the record.”

  50. avatar
    Curious George September 2, 2015 at 7:03 pm #

    Pete:
    “There. Satisifed?”

    All of the information on the PDF has been verified by the Hawaii Department of Health.

    Yes, I’m satisfied.

  51. avatar
    Slartibartfast September 2, 2015 at 7:18 pm #

    Which is why I offered to give Mr. Irey an affidavit. By brither standards that must be treated as incontrovertible.

    Northland10: At least Zullo’s affidavit was in support of the party that prevailed.Oh wait…

    The birthers seem to think that if it is filed, it has some legal standing because it’s “on the record.”

  52. avatar
    Pete September 2, 2015 at 7:35 pm #

    Curious George: All of the information on the PDF has been verified by the Hawaii Department of Health.

    Yes, I’m satisfied.

    Right. And by that standard [verification from the State], almost everyone is satisifed.

    But the birther thesis was always that officials of the State of Hawaii (specifically, people in the HI Department of Health) were in on the presentation of a false statement (“Barack Obama was born in Hawaii”) to the American public.

    My point is that even when you look at things by BIRTHER standards, making no assumption of honesty on the part of the State, there’s still no “there” there.

    The idea that there is, or ever was, “something wrong” with Obama’s PDF is simply complete bullsh*t.

  53. avatar
    HistorianDude September 2, 2015 at 8:52 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I was told that Mike Zullo attributed a number of findings that he presented at the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers convention to Reed Hayes, including things that Zullo published prior to having any connection with Hayes.

    Close. This was in fact the moment at which Hayes’ existence was first announced to the world, and certainly it was dishonestly implied that Hayes was responsible for more than he was. But nothing was actually attributed to him other than two of the three sentences we have come to know so well. Here is the transcription of Gillar’s video, and it immediately follows the claim that Obama’s certificate # was out of sequence. To this point in the video, nothing had been covered that was not part of the 2 CCP press conferences made before Hayes had ever been contacted:

    “Some of the anomalies that we’ve pointed out today were first discovered by a certified document examiner named Reed Hayes. Mr. Hayes has over than 20 years’ of experience in document examination. In 1994 he was certified by the American Board of Forensic Examiners. In 2001 he was certified by the National Association of Document Examiners. He’s testified 26 times I various courtroom proceedings in Hawaii. In 2006 he authored a book entitled Forensic Handwriting Examination: A Definitive Guide. He’s also the Editor in Chief of the National Association of Document Examiners Journal and he’s a board member of the Scientific Association of Forensic Examiners. Mr. Hayes’ curriculum vitae is available upon request. Mr. Hayes’ conclusion after examining Barack Obama’s long form birth certificate pretty much says it all. Mr. Hates said that ‘In over 20 years of examining documentation of various types, I have never seen a document that is so seriously questionable in so many respects. In my opinion the birth certificate is entirely fabricated.’”

    Not a single detailed finding was ever actually attributed to him.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2TkX3-jEgc&feature=youtu.be

    The claim that “Some of the anomalies that we’ve pointed out today were first discovered by a certified document examiner named Reed Hayes,” was a bald faced lie.

  54. avatar
    RanTalbott September 2, 2015 at 9:06 pm #

    HistorianDude: Mr. Hayes’ conclusion after examining Barack Obama’s long form birth certificate pretty much says it all.

    Of course, there’s the teensy little problem that Hayes never actually examined “Barack Obama’s long form birth certificate”. In fact, to this very day, Zullo has never revealed exactly what he examined (although it’s been implied that he looked at the PDF).

  55. avatar
    RanTalbott September 2, 2015 at 9:10 pm #

    btw, if Mr. Irey is still following this thread, he should note that Orly Taitz, in her latest appeal filing, also identifies him as an “expert”.

    I guess he needs to go set her straight, too.

    Or, at least, try to: history indicates that his chances of success are somewhere on the continuum between “slim” and “none”…

  56. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 2, 2015 at 10:06 pm #

    Commenter ellen here said that she called Hayes, and it might be interesting to remember what she said:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/07/the-occasional-open-thread-press-any-key-to-continue/#comment-337194

    Here too, there is no reference to any specific finding.

    HistorianDude: The claim that “Some of the anomalies that we’ve pointed out today were first discovered by a certified document examiner named Reed Hayes,” was a bald faced lie.

  57. avatar
    Curious George September 3, 2015 at 12:24 am #

    Pete

    “My point is that even when you look at things by BIRTHER standards,…”

    “BIRTHER standards.” An oxymoron if there ever was one. They have only moved goal posts. That seems to be their only standard method of operation.

  58. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) September 3, 2015 at 4:52 am #

    Pete: My point is that even when you look at things by BIRTHER standards, making no assumption of honesty on the part of the State, there’s still no “there” there.

    As with every conspiracy theory, it is not even consistent if you assume its presumptions to be true.

    * Everybody’s “in on it”, including FBI and CIA, yet “they” couldn’t even get an experienced forger.
    * “They” have all politicians in the country in their pockets, yet couldn’t amend the Constitution to allow naturalized citizens to become Prez.
    * “They” can buy off anyone in the US to do their bidding, yet couldn’t find a lily-white “two citizen parent”-born person to install as President (who would not have raised birther suspicion).
    * “They” could buy off everyone in Hawaii, yet had to make a “crude PDF forgery” instead of just having Hawaii produce a proper original BC (as they do hundred times a day, every day).
    * “They” have everyone in their pocket yet aren’t able to shut down the few remaining birther websites.

    And that’s just 4 out of 1,000+ *real* inconsistencies with the birther theory.

  59. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) September 3, 2015 at 4:54 am #

    Curious George: They have only moved goal posts.

    Actually, a good litmus test to see if you’re talking to a die-hard birther or just someone who thinks birfin’ is another way of saying “I don’t like Obama” is to check if the person moves the goalposts in a discussion.
    The die-hard birther will keep piling on the crazy whereas the opportunist will quickly switch to “But he’s a bad President!”.

  60. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 5, 2015 at 3:03 pm #

    I’ve had additional emails from Mr. Irey, but nothing substantive in the way of an argument that could be confirmed or debunked.

    He says that he has never claimed to be an expert. Commenters here have given many examples of others calling him an expert, something which Irey himself is not known by us to have objected to; however, I take exception to Irey’s claim that he hasn’t called himself an expert. In fact he has by making claims that only an expert could make. He makes himself out an expert on what typewriting looks like when photocopied, and scanned to a PDF on a Xerox WorkCentre. He makes categorical statements about all birth certificates from Hawaii in 1961, and how every sheet of security paper is cut–even though he’s not seen anything close to a representative sample.

    Irey once admitted that he was wrong on something, but has not admitted to being wrong on other debunked claims. Nevertheless, he takes the position that as long as he is right on something, it doesn’t matter how many times he was wrong before. That’s logically true–if he has proof then other failed proofs don’t matter. What is wrong with his view is it is not rational for him to make a claim confidently when he uses no controls, has no independent review, and has a history of proven incompetence. He’s like Charlie Brown waiting for the Great Pumpkin.

    I did get Irey to supply the URL of his latest “proof.” It was an ad in the Washington Times:

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/272784783/New-Additional-Evidence-Revealed-Proving-Obama-Birth-Certificate-and-PDF-Document-a-Computer-Made-Forgery-The-Smoking-Gun-by-Paul-Irey-27-Jul-20

    There are seven illustrations followed 4 pages of text. I had some problems viewing the text in Chrome the second time I looked at it, but Microsoft Edge worked OK, so you may need to fiddle with the browser.

    Paul Irey is a liar. Here are some statements where he claims to know things that he could not know; therefore, a lie:

    1. We know that the forger added this extra piece of art…
    2. All the Hawaiian birth certificates of the 1961 era show this right side to be …
    3. The sample sheet at the left is a typical of this standard sheet of security paper that has been in use for decades.
    4. All Hawaiian security paper is identically trimmed on the right side.

    Some of this was debunked in my article

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/10/light-fuse-and-run-away/

    and some in my article:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2015/07/paul-irey-provides-proof-he-doesnt-know-as-much-about-scanners-as-he-thinks-he-does/

    A significant part of his other mistakes come from his ignorance of two facts:

    All photocopy machines and scanners reduce image size a little.
    Xerox machines erase the edges of documents (Edge Erase feature).

  61. avatar
    Rickey September 5, 2015 at 3:14 pm #

    Not to be a nitpicker, but it is Linus who waits for the Great Pumpkin. Charlie Brown hopes in vain that Lucy will one day let him kick a football.

  62. avatar
    Slartibartfast September 5, 2015 at 3:18 pm #

    You beat me to it! Doc was wrong, does this mean Irey is right? According to what I know about BirtherLogic, absolutely!

    Rickey:
    Not to be a nitpicker, but it is Linus who waits for the Great Pumpkin. Charlie Brown hopes in vain that Lucy will one day let him kick a football.

  63. avatar
    Notorial Dissent September 5, 2015 at 9:59 pm #

    I’ve made no bones about my thinking Irey is a fool and a liar, but even his reasoning is defective, and I know I am preaching to the choir here. .

    Things that come to mind after reading this. Has anyone actually seen a 1960’s vintage BC? As near as I can determine, all the ones we’ve seen so far are at least a decade later and on security paper. I am equally sure that in that period alone they changed copiers and papers suppliers multiple times, particularly as technology advanced and suppliers came and went. My further supposition is that at some point HI had microfilmed the hardbound BC’s and has been using them to reproduce the long forms as they needed to rather than going back to the actual books each time and risk damaging the actual records. Does anyone know if this is in fact the process? If this is the case it would further complicate the birfer’s claims as that process would add effects to the final document. I know that in my state if I want a copy of a vital record, that it comes off a microfilm or microform(heaven help us) unless the records are really old and have never been copied, and that is rare now. Now in most places they are straight out digitizing them from the start, makes for much better copies than off the film.

  64. avatar
    Keith September 6, 2015 at 1:10 am #

    Rickey: Not to be a nitpicker, but it is Linus who waits for the Great Pumpkin. Charlie Brown hopes in vain that Lucy will one day let him kick a football.

    Personally, and we would need to hear from Doc on this, but I think Doc said exactly what he meant.

    Charlie Brown waiting for the Great Pumpkin is a mixed metaphor, and Irey is one giant Great Pumpkin of a mixed metaphor. So put that on your non-sequitur and smoke it.

  65. avatar
    Slartibartfast September 6, 2015 at 1:14 am #

    Keith for the win!

    Keith: Personally, and we would need to hear from Doc on this, but I think Doc said exactly what he meant.

    Charlie Brown waiting for the Great Pumpkin is a mixed metaphor, and Irey is one giant Great Pumpkin of a mixed metaphor. So put that on your non-sequitur and smoke it.

  66. avatar
    Keith September 6, 2015 at 1:19 am #

    And speaking of and Mr. Irey and non-sequiturs (as I was, sorta), I think I have come to the conclusion that Wiley Miller is a psychic (and Danae would have a field day with that one too):

    Non-Sequitur 1 June 2009

  67. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 6, 2015 at 6:35 pm #

    OK, this is rich. I got an email from Irey. I complained about his security paper size argument based on the Alan certificate, because the Alan certificate was copied onto security paper at a different size reduction than the Obama certificate was. Here’s Irey’s reply:

    I am no longer using the Alan … didn’t you see the new one?

    I got objections to the Alan because people figured out who it was and complained.

    The one I’m using … I was told originated with you … so I guess this one is OK. I have no idea who it is.

    Well, Paul, my reconstruction was based on the Alan certificate. Duh.

  68. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 6, 2015 at 6:41 pm #

    The Nordyke certificates were issued in 1966. There is a raised seal, but no security paper that I can see. The 1991 Peter Boy certificate is on bank note style paper.

    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2009/Jul/28/M1139416728.GIF

    Notorial Dissent: Things that come to mind after reading this. Has anyone actually seen a 1960’s vintage BC?

  69. avatar
    y_p_w September 6, 2015 at 8:17 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    The Nordyke certificates were issued in 1966. There is a raised seal, but no security paper that I can see. The 1991 Peter Boy certificate is on bank note style paper.

    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2009/Jul/28/M1139416728.GIF

    Was that one necessarily on bank note style paper or was it just some sort of less complicated security paper? I found one image, and the only thing I can think of is that it had a VOID “pantograph” that shows up when copied or even scanned. I’ve got a couple of college transcripts that are on printed forms, but not necessarily intaglio printed borders.

  70. avatar
    gorefan September 6, 2015 at 11:44 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Well, Paul, my reconstruction was based on the Alan certificate. Duh.

    Original blog post of Alan BC.

    http://snarkybytes.com/2008/06/18/hawaii-birth-certificate-1963/

  71. avatar
    gorefan September 6, 2015 at 11:55 pm #

    y_p_w: VOID “pantograph

    Yep

    http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img6/4746/peterboycertificate.jpg

  72. avatar
    Notorial Dissent September 7, 2015 at 1:30 am #

    I have literally a drawer full of birth, death, marriage, and naturalization certs, 99% not only pre-1970 but generally pre-1960, and they all have one thing in common, they are not printed on anything but plain paper, some are sealed some aren’t, some raised seals some rubber stamps, but they were all copied off some form of microform and it shows in the reproduction. They all show one of two appearances, either as individual sheets that were copied or ones that were in a book and copied. The individual ones generally are much clearer and not distorted, the booked ones are almost all universally distorted in one way or another to a greater or lesser extent, which is further exacerbated by how they were copied. I also have duplicates with about a decade between them that show considerable differences due to the change in reproduction equipment. None of the ones I have before the mid 70’s are on any kind of safety paper, so I would assume that any HI certs prior to about 1970/75 would most probably be on either plain paper or the weird photo paper they were using at the time as that was what they were using at the time.

  73. avatar
    gorefan September 7, 2015 at 10:35 am #

    Reading Irey’s manifesto, it is clear he doesn’t understand that Hawaiian certified copies produced in the 1990s (Coats, Alan, Ah’Nee) are not on 8.5 x 11 sheets of paper.

  74. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 7, 2015 at 6:27 pm #

    Today I examined the Factcheck.org photos of President Obama’s 2007-issued short form birth certificate, comparing them to my sample Simpson Design Secure paper. Specifically, I counted the pattern repetition across the full 8.5″ width of the paper (the image shows both margins) and within eyeball accuracy, the pattern frequency is the same; however, the cuts on the left and right margins intersect the pattern in different places.

    Irey asserts, without any justification that I can see, that real Hawaiian security paper is always cut the same on the left and right. That appears not to be true.

  75. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 7, 2015 at 6:30 pm #

    Why do you think that?

    gorefan: Hawaiian certified copies produced in the 1990s (Coats, Alan, Ah’Nee) are not on 8.5 x 11 sheets of paper.

  76. avatar
    gorefan September 7, 2015 at 7:01 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Why do you think that?

    I should probably rephrase that statement. The certified copies are trimmed. Like Edith Coats’ 1985.

    http://passportsusa.com/wp-content/gallery/passportusa/edith_front.jpg

    BTW, the Nordykes’ were not 8.5 x 11 photostats.

    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2009/Jul/28/hawaii907280345V3_b.jpg

  77. avatar
    Notorial Dissent September 8, 2015 at 12:13 am #

    Those are the old style photostats I’m used to seeing on not quite half a sheet of paper. I suspect, but don’t know that there was a specific machine and paper they used for those as they are all markedly similar in my collection, and come from all over.

  78. avatar
    y_p_w September 8, 2015 at 4:09 pm #

    Notorial Dissent:
    I have literally a drawer full of birth, death, marriage, and naturalization certs, 99% not only pre-1970 but generally pre-1960, and they all have one thing in common, they are not printed on anything but plain paper, some are sealed some aren’t, some raised seals some rubber stamps, but they were all copied off some form of microform and it shows in the reproduction. They all show one of two appearances, either as individual sheets that were copied or ones that were in a book and copied. The individual ones generally are much clearer and not distorted, the booked ones are almost all universally distorted in one way or another to a greater or lesser extent, which is further exacerbated by how they were copied. I also have duplicates with about a decade between them that show considerable differences due to the change in reproduction equipment. None of the ones I have before the mid 70’s are on any kind of safety paper, so I would assume that any HI certs prior to about 1970/75 would most probably be on either plain paper or the weird photo paper they were using at the time as that was what they were using at the time.

    These days it’s likely to be a scanned/archived computer image. That’s what my kid’s BC indicated, with FAX like stray pixels all over. My first marriage certificate looked to be photocopied directly off the original document that we signed. We got later backup versions, and they could reduce or enlarge as they wished. Also – the scan cropped off part of the left information (standard categories). Once they were having issues with the electronic archive and said they could print it up from the microform if needed.

    There’s no particular way it has to be done, as long as the information is legible.

  79. avatar
    y_p_w September 8, 2015 at 4:11 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Today I examined the Factcheck.org photos of President Obama’s 2007-issued short form birth certificate, comparing them to my sample Simpson Design Secure paper. Specifically, I counted the pattern repetition across the full 8.5″ width of the paper (the image shows both margins) and within eyeball accuracy, the pattern frequency is the same; however, the cuts on the left and right margins intersect the pattern in different places.

    Irey asserts, without any justification that I can see, that real Hawaiian security paper is always cut the same on the left and right. That appears not to be true.

    I think I mentioned “edge sorting” with regards to card games in another comment. The edges are supposed to be consistently cut such that they should be hard to “sort”, but sometimes they’re cut off such that they can be recognized. The house is supposed to do all sorts of things to make it impossible to take advantage of this such as flip half the cards before they’re shuffled or just don’t sort them for the player (the guys I recall said they were superstitious). There are also card edge designs (like American Playing Card’s Stinger) that use an edge fade to white that makes it harder to detect even if they’re not cut perfectly.

    However, I doubt anyone really cares with regards to a basketweave security paper.

  80. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) September 8, 2015 at 6:18 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Irey asserts, without any justification that I can see, that real Hawaiian security paper is always cut the same on the left and right.

    When I got my first credit card, the first four 4-digit PIN codes I had all followed the schema “sum of first two digits = sum of other two digits”. Same with my father’s PIN at the time (which even had “first two digits = other two digits”).
    However it would’ve been wrong to conclude this was true for all such PIN codes for everyone (in fact the fifth PIN I got, which is what I use today, doesn’t have any discernable pattern).
    Basically Irey performs induction from a very limited set, something not even an expert but no sane layman would do.

  81. avatar
    bob September 12, 2015 at 10:32 pm #

    Check out Irey’s change.org petition.

  82. avatar
    RanTalbott September 13, 2015 at 12:31 am #

    bob:
    Check out Irey’s change.org petition.

    His goal for the petition is to gather 100 signatures.

    At least, that’s what he says. I wonder whether his real goal is to goad Trump into blowing him off, to prove he’s part of the conspiracy 😆

    Surely he can’t be delusional enough to think his petition is going to impress even his fellow birthers. Does he fantasize about some scene like:

    AIDE: Mr. Trump, we just received a petition asking you to pressure the press into publishing a proof that Obama’s birth certificate is fake.
    TRUMP: So? Toss it in the spam folder with the others.
    AIDE: But, Mr. Trump, it has one hundred signatures.
    TRUMP: Holy cow! Tell Jerry to turn the plane around, and radio Dallas that we’re cancelling my appearance. We’ve got to get back to Trump Tower right away! Call the press, and tell them to clear their front pages!

  83. avatar
    Pete September 13, 2015 at 12:42 am #

    Irey’s petition has 5 supporters!

    Fasten all seatbelts!

    Seal all entrances and exits!

    Close all shops in the mall!

    Cancel the three ring circus, and secure all animals in the zoo!

    Paul Irey’s about to reach… LUDICROUS SPEED!

  84. avatar
    gorefan September 13, 2015 at 2:51 am #

    Pete: Irey’s petition has 5 supporters!

    He’s only looking for 100 signatures. That’s not going to impress the Donald. What a moron.

  85. avatar
    Keith September 13, 2015 at 3:07 am #

    Pete: Paul Irey’s about to reach… LUDICROUS SPEED!

    I thought it was her Orlyness that drove a Tesla.

  86. avatar
    RanTalbott September 13, 2015 at 3:31 am #

    gorefan: That’s not going to impress the Donald.

    But he’s up to 10 now. Which means his rate of increase in support is far faster than Trump’s. And he’ll reach the level of support he needs to “win” in a matter of mere days, not months. Which means that The Donald will surely want to meet with him just to find out what his secret is.

    It’s a fiendishly clever plan, that can’t possibly fail.

  87. avatar
    Krosis September 13, 2015 at 5:50 am #

    Mr. Trump! Please, save us from Obama!
    Stop Ted Cruz! He’s not legitimate!
    If you don’t, they’ll start such a huge drama
    That it will destroy United States!

    We have proofs, and evidences plenty!
    Mr. Zullo and attorney Taitz,
    People like Doug Vogt and like Paul Irey
    Say “it’s fake, the birth certificate”!

    Mr Trump! We’ve started a petition!
    Do not disappoint us, Mr. Trump!
    Please, reply to save the Constitution,
    Do not turn our nation to a rump!

  88. avatar
    Curious George September 13, 2015 at 12:38 pm #

    More Irey nonsense now appearing at BR.

    http://www.birtherreport.com/2015/09/obama-birth-certificate-examiner-donald.html?m=1

  89. avatar
    gorefan September 13, 2015 at 3:38 pm #

    RanTalbott: But he’s up to 10 now.

    He’s up to 28 now. A couple of years ago he would have gotten that in a couple of hours. Pathetic loser.

  90. avatar
    Rickey September 13, 2015 at 3:38 pm #

    I signed his petition as Dudley Do-Right.

  91. avatar
    gorefan September 13, 2015 at 3:48 pm #

    Curious George: More Irey nonsense now appearing at BR.

    Irey wrote:

    “ONCE AGAIN … HERE IS THE SMOKING GUN PROOF THAT SO FAR ALL OF YOU SEEM TO HAVE IGNORED. WHAT HAPPENED ? YOU DON’T HAVE TIME TO READ IT?”

    Someone’s feelings are hurt that people are ignoring him. Sad

  92. avatar
    roadburner September 13, 2015 at 4:52 pm #

    too right he’s butthurt….


    IF YOU HAVE ONE POINT THAT MY PROOF IS WRONG … PLEASE ADVISE …

    DR. CONSPIRACY COULD NOT DO IT AND HE AND HIS GANG OF FOOLS TRIED.”

    ironic he calls us fools, but repeatedly replies to e-mail notifications of replies to his posts instead of posting normally.

  93. avatar
    Rickey September 14, 2015 at 12:09 am #

    Not only did Irey accept my Dudley Do-Right name, he published my comment.

    I gave Dudley’s address as c/o RCMP, Dawson, Yukon Territory.

    Does Irey expect Trump to arrest Obama?

  94. avatar
    Pete September 14, 2015 at 2:20 am #

    A far more accurate statement would be that most of us ignored his inane ramblings because everything he’s ever presented before, over a period of years, was horsesh*t, and it’s like, fool me once, shame on you, fool me 34 times, shame on me.

    Or maybe something to the effect of the boy who cried wolf…

    Several dozen times in a row.

    I honestly can’t be bothered to read his stuff, because I know the chances of it being anything other than utter crap are something in the range of winning Powerball.

  95. avatar
    Keith September 14, 2015 at 4:23 am #

    Pete: I honestly can’t be bothered to read his stuff, because I know the chances of it being anything other than utter crap are something in the range of winning Powerball.

    So you’re saying that there’s a chance…