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Arpaio, Zullo hold press conference: claim Obama birth certificate a forgery

ABC 15 Arizona live-streamed the press conference at 4 PM Arizona time.

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Arpaio introduced Mike Zullo, who presented a video produced by Mark Gillar in which the claim is made that nine bits of Obama’s birth certificate were copied from the certificate of Johanna Ah’nee. The argument as presented rests on two date stamps on the two certificates having the same angle and one check box and adjacent word being identical. Four other items were indicated on the video, but not actually identified in the audio.

The careless viewer might leave the impression that the dates from the Ah’nee certificate were copied onto the Obama certificate, because they appear, Zullo claims, at the same angle. Let’s put the magic of video aside, and look at the plain image (the boxes around the images are from the documents themselves). Ah’nee’s certificate1 is on the right.

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Notice how the one on the left is obviously copied from the one on the right—not. First, and most obvious, the date isn’t the same date. The angle looks different to me, but then I’m not a forensic document examiner. Zullo says that an adjustment can be made to account for some kind of distortion in photocopying and make the angles the same.

More assertions appear, via Zullo, from Hawaiian handwriting expert Reed Hayes, and also from an Italian company, ForLab Multimedia Forensics Laboratory; however, nothing from them went beyond the 9 bits of similarity between the two certificates. Mike Zullo told Carl Gallups in March of 2016 that he was working with an international forensic laboratory and had already received the first report from them. Zullo says that Hayes thinks that the Stanley Ann Obama signature on the birth certificate was somehow put together, but doesn’t elaborate. This may be confusion from the fact that the Xerox 7655 machine split the signature into separate layers.

Zullo acknowledged that Hawaii had verified the information on Obama’s birth certificate, but suggests that perhaps it had been amended. Zullo fails to explain precisely why Obama would forge a Hawaiian birth certificate, when he already had one.

In several instances, Zullo misrepresents the facts to make things sound suspicious, and as he has done in previous presentations, he carefully words things that technically say one thing, but leave the impression of something else. He says something extremely suspicious: that the Italian forensic laboratory claimed that if they had a larger sample size, the probability that Obama’s document is a forgery would increase, but of course that would only be true if there were consistency in the sample and variation from the Obama certificate, which one wouldn’t know without looking at the sample.

While Zullo promised to explain why the current results do not invalidate their earlier findings, he never touches on that topic. Zullo goes to some lengths to emphasize that the Xerox machine which he admits replicates “some” of the characteristics of the Obama PDF is irrelevant to this new analysis, but he fails to acknowledge that in previous presentations, he claimed that those same characteristics, now known as normal, were marks of forgery.

When all of the rhetoric a conspiracist language is stripped away, all that actually remains is a couple of date stamps being at the same angle, and a box with an X in it is the same. It’s not much.

In any case, there is nothing released yet so that one can actually dig into the argument. Will the Reed Hayes report ever be released? We don’t yet know.

Live streaming stopped abruptly at 5:03 PM Arizona time as Zullo was making a fantasy recreation of Savannah Guthrie viewing the original Obama certificate. When I got it back, Arpaio stated that they would take no questions and the press conference ended.

Press conference videos

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1The Ah’nee certificate linked above was created May 4, 2011, I believe, by Orly Taitz. Taitz published that certificate on her web site in December of 2013, which is where I obtained it. I do not know for sure where Zullo got his copy, but presumably it came from Jerome Corsi who had previously published a redacted version of it at WND.

204 Responses to Arpaio, Zullo hold press conference: claim Obama birth certificate a forgery

  1. avatar
    vladimir putin December 15, 2016 at 7:12 pm #

    The Forensic experts’ conclusions have to carry more weight than some self-declared expert with a blog.

  2. avatar
    trader jack December 15, 2016 at 7:20 pm #

    Lot of watchers, I guess,
    Most important fact was the alignment of things placed on the document by the x’s and the x’s being exactly the same on two different documents, which, it appears to me, would cause a doubt about the document.

    And, of course, he has the forensic company saying it Is a manufactured document, but ,hey, it an a Italian company, so who knows

    Had a hard time seeing the video on the screen though, you would have to be conversant with the document to understand what was being said.

  3. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 15, 2016 at 7:23 pm #

    First, I have never called myself a forensic expert, so let’s stop lying about that. I am an expert in Obama conspiracy theories, but not forensics. I can, however, demonstrate how, on many occasions, the Cold Case Posse was technically wrong, told lies, and presented fabricated evidence.

    The conclusions of a forensic expert carry more weight than some guy with a blog, but Zullo has kept the Reed Hayes report under wraps for years and to date has never released it. If the ForLab report ever gets released, then we can discuss its conclusions, but Zullo said next to nothing about what ForLab concluded.

    vladimir putin: The Forensic experts’ conclusions have to carry more weight than some self-declared expert with a blog.

  4. avatar
    bob December 15, 2016 at 7:24 pm #

    vladimir putin:
    The Forensic experts’ conclusions have to carry more weight than some self-declared expert with a blog.

    No forensic experts’ conclusions have been released. Zullo claims they exist, but he refuses to provide them.

    What is Zullo hiding?

  5. avatar
    trader jack December 15, 2016 at 7:29 pm #

    you know, that Is one of things I never thought of about the document and that is that someone should check to see of the placement of the dates and the x in the boxes were the exact same as some other document.

    and , then it would seem that the two documents were joined in some fashion, which brings the thought that the first document must have been in someone’s hand other than the owner.

    The sure went into a lot of work to find that out, if , in fact, it means anything.

  6. avatar
    trader jack December 15, 2016 at 7:33 pm #

    bob: No forensic experts’ conclusions have been released.Zullo claims they exist, but he refuses to provide them.

    What is Zullo hiding?

    well, he did give the name of the Italian company, and did say that the two examiners came to the same conclusions.

    I think it will be in the supposed 50 page report that has been previously mentioned.

  7. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 15, 2016 at 7:51 pm #

    He gave Reed Hayes’ name years ago, but withheld the report. We do not know anything about what Hayes used to reach his conclusions.

    trader jack: well, he did give the name of the Italian company, and did say that the two examiners came to the same conclusions.

  8. avatar
    bob December 15, 2016 at 7:52 pm #

    well, he did give the name of the Italian company, and did say that the two examiners came to the same conclusions.

    So Zullo says. Why won’t Zullo let the experts’ (alleged) reports speak for themselves?

    I think it will be in the supposed 50 page report that has been previously mentioned

    The report that Zullo is hiding?

  9. avatar
    bob December 15, 2016 at 7:53 pm #

    Quick question for the experts: When did Ah’Nee give her birth certificate to Booth? Thanks.

  10. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 15, 2016 at 7:59 pm #

    The Zullo statistical argument is not valid statistics. You can’t ask AFTER THE FACT how improbable something is. What were the chances of a particular lottery number coming up? A poker hand? Every lottery winner and every poker hand do come up. Given 5 years, Zullo may have asked many thousands of questions (analogous to playing thousands of poker hands) and the fact that he found something (or thinks he did) is not statistically meaningful.

    And Zullo leaves many questions unanswered, like if only 9 bits of the Obama certificate were lifted from the Ah’nee certificate, where did the rest come from? How did anyone get access to the Ah’Nee certificate? If Zullo could get a date stamp from Kinkos, why did the putative forger have to use the locked-up certificate of an obscure Hawaiian?

  11. avatar
    Whatever4 December 15, 2016 at 8:01 pm #

    Possible conversation:

    ForLabs: If you had more samples, we could come to better conclusions. We just don’t have much to go by. Plus, you really need an original. Comparing files isn’t ideal.

    MCCCP: the Italian forensic laboratory claimed that if they had a larger sample size, the probability that Obama’s document is a forgery would increase.

  12. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 15, 2016 at 8:07 pm #

    That’s exactly right. Zullo told people what they were supposed to see, and then made a presentation where they probably couldn’t actually see it. Zullo told people what the ForLab person Marco said in general language, but didn’t actually provide the report. Marco’s last name isn’t even given to my recollection.

    Given that Zullo has been fooled by con men before, how do we know that this Marco person even works for ForLab?

    If Zullo is going to claim to be a professional, then he needs to act like one and present his evidence for peer review and public criticism.

    trader jack: Had a hard time seeing the video on the screen though, you would have to be conversant with the document to understand what was being said.

  13. avatar
    bob December 15, 2016 at 8:19 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Zullo told people what the ForLab person Marco said in general language, but didn’t actually provide the report. Marco’s last name isn’t even given to my recollection.

    A Marco does work for ForLab.

  14. avatar
    Pete December 15, 2016 at 8:29 pm #

    trader jack: Most important fact was the alignment of things placed on the document by the x’s and the x’s being exactly the same on two different documents, which, it appears to me, would cause a doubt about the document.

    Except that, from even a quick look at the two documents, they don’t appear to be “exactly the same.”

    Digital graphics is digital graphics. If two things are the same, they’re generally very strongly the same. Even if one has been misguided, they’re generally going to still, very clearly, have the same outline.

    I couldn’t tell for sure what points they were alleging to be the same, but i identified at least some of not most of them. And they aren’t the same.

    The placement of one of the x’s is very close, but even that one could just easily be nothing more than coincidence.

    So far, I see literally nothing to support their claim.

  15. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 15, 2016 at 8:33 pm #

    The Marco you found doesn’t appear to have any forensic credentials listed. But it’s a common name.

    bob: A Marco does work for ForLab.

  16. avatar
    bob December 15, 2016 at 8:38 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    The Marco you found doesn’t appear to have any forensic credentials listed.

    As if that matters to Zullo!: Hayes is a handwriting expert.

  17. avatar
    vladimir putin December 15, 2016 at 8:50 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: First, I have never called myself a forensic expert, so let’s stop lying about that.

    I didn’t say you called yourself a forensic expert, I called you a self-declared expert (reread my unedited post). So let’s all stop calling anybody liars.

    Your response does show you’re overreacting and you’re overly sensitive to the simple facts and evidence presented today that show Zullo and Arpaio are probably right and thousands of your posts are probably mostly wrong.

    Have a Merry Christmas everybody, and Happy New Year. Nothing else will happen on this subject until Trump gets sworn in. And even then nothing might happen. The country obviously wants this all to go away as it reflects poorly on president symbolism.

  18. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 15, 2016 at 9:04 pm #

    It is clear to me what you meant, and I think clear to everyone else.

    When “Putin’s” comments are made, they go into moderation. I didn’t set it that way intentionally, so I checked why it was happening. Putin was banned a very long time ago when he was posting under these names:

    b,b,b,b,b,birther
    Big Broverment
    Birfthers Are Kooky
    Birther In Chief?!
    Casino
    Ginger Rodgers
    Impartial Observer
    Indo
    Mr. Fixit
    New Comment
    The Riddler
    Unconvinced
    vladimir putin

    vladimir putin: I didn’t say you called yourself a forensic expert,

  19. avatar
    bob December 15, 2016 at 9:27 pm #

    vladimir putin: And even then nothing might happen.

    Nothing will happen, ever. Nothing was ever intended to happen, other than separating marks from their money.

  20. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund December 15, 2016 at 10:02 pm #

    trader jack:
    you know, that Is one of things I never thought of about the document and that is that someone should check to see of the placementof the dates and the x in the boxes were the exact same as some other document.

    Actually, that is something I thought of. Back in 2015, I compared the Obama, Nordyke twins, and Ah’nee certificates. The placement of the dates don’t match (granted, I didn’t check the rotation, but the rotation on one is the opposite of the rotation of the other!), the “X in boxes” are all different, and the spacing between words and lines is consistent only insofar as they were likely typed on the same typewriter by the same typist, who almost certainly adjusted the paper as needed.

  21. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 15, 2016 at 10:05 pm #

    I don’t know but it has to be prior to May 4, 2011, because that is the date of the scan to PDF linked in my article, which I recall came from Orly Taitz via Miki Booth. Obama released his long form birth certificate April 27, a week before Taitz had Ah’nee’s in hand. Booth met Jerome Corsi shortly before September 26, 2010, at which time she gave Jerome Corsi copies of all of the Booth family certificates and her collection of notes.

    bob: Quick question for the experts: When did Ah’Nee give her birth certificate to Booth? Thanks.

  22. avatar
    Bob December 15, 2016 at 10:54 pm #

    The Atlantic reported that Zullo presented evidence which he called “quite disturbing.”

    I would agree that their evidence is quite disturbing but probably not for the same reason.

  23. avatar
    gorefan December 15, 2016 at 11:01 pm #

    So they are comparing the 1995 certified copy of Ah’Nee to the PDF of Obama. And what was that bit about the AP copy being a jpeg? The White House handed out paper copies and Scott Applewhite photographed one of them.

  24. avatar
    Steve December 15, 2016 at 11:15 pm #

    Doesn’t seem like the earth shattered to me.

  25. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 15, 2016 at 11:16 pm #

    Comment I left at the News 12 web site:

    In his first press conference, the central argument was that no software or machine creates a PDF like the one Obama presented. Now Zullo admits that the Xerox 7655 does exactly some of the things his first report said were marks of forgery. He says that he never was able to EXACTLY reproduce the Obama PDF with the Xerox machine. Well, he didn’t have Obama’s birth certificate to test with. Duh!

    In the second press conference, the central argument was that the penciled race code next to the race of Obama’s father in Box 9 was wrong and he presented a race code table (found to be from another year) to prove the Obama certificate a fake. Now this evening he presents the Ah’Nee certificate which proves with its’s own penciled code that the Zullo table was bogus, and his adamant argument that only limited items could be specified for Race was total nonsense.

    Now Zullo still plays the amateur forensics expert with his video, and tells people what they are supposed to see, things he admits took him years to see. I don’t see them.

    But the main thrust is his forensics experts. The first is Reed Hayes. Zullo has been suppressing the release of the Hayes report since it was written in 2013. He’s happy to cherry-pick bits from its conclusion, but he’s never disclosed how Hayes arrived at it. No peer review has been allowed. Of course Reed Hayes is not one of the nation’s foremost document examiners. He’s a professional handwriting analyst, but he’s best known for trying to insert himself in tthe JonBennet Ramsey murder case. Zullo previously claimed Hayes was a “registered Democrat” (in a state that has no party registrations).

    The other expert is someone name “Marco” (last name withheld) with an Italian forensics laboratory named ForLab. Again we’ve seen no report, we don’t know what they based their analysis on, and we don’t even know what they concluded.

  26. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 15, 2016 at 11:22 pm #

    No, but my “gut wrenched” a little.

    Steve: Doesn’t seem like the earth shattered to me.

  27. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund December 15, 2016 at 11:23 pm #

    Here is a direct link to the video he presented. Watch closely as he tries a number of tricks to try to convince you that things line up, when they actually don’t.

    Amateur hour at the Flimflammery Institute of Bull$h!+ (FIB)

  28. avatar
    Pete December 15, 2016 at 11:28 pm #

    Is that the official title?

  29. avatar
    James Greenlee December 15, 2016 at 11:41 pm #

    I created a scan of my marriage license on a Xerox WorkCenter 123 back when THE LAYERS! thing surfaced. Without changing a single setting, I got results very much like the birth certificate file. I was convinced rather quickly that a) it was normal for the document to come out that way, and that b) forensic study of a digital reproduction was rather pointless, since there is no claim made that the file is the actual document. That this element of the conspiracy theory didn’t die a rapid death for everyone still amazes me.

  30. avatar
    Rickey December 15, 2016 at 11:52 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:

    And Zullo leaves many questions unanswered, like if only 9 bits of the Obama certificate were lifted from the Ah’nee certificate, where did the rest come from?

    For example, where did the signature of Dr. Sinclair come from? He wasn’t the doctor who deliver An’nee.

  31. avatar
    Rickey December 15, 2016 at 11:58 pm #

    trader jack: well, he did give the name of the Italian company, and did say that the two examiners came to the same conclusions.

    Which in a court of law would be worthless.

    If I tried to testify that an expert gave this opinion or that opinion, I would be laughed out of court. Only an expert can give expert testimony, and even then the testimony is subject to cross-examination and rebuttal.

  32. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 16, 2016 at 12:01 am #

    HTTP error 403.

    W. Kevin Vicklund: Here is a direct link to the video he presented.

  33. avatar
    bob December 16, 2016 at 12:02 am #

    As someone else noted, Zullo stressed the astronomical odds in the various parts lining up in the two birth certificates.

    But Zullo didn’t address the astronomical odds in the forger using the exact certificate that just so happen to have fallen into Corsi’s hands.

  34. avatar
    john December 16, 2016 at 12:22 am #

    Interesting discussion about the Xerox 7655. Apparently Zullo, conducted dozens and dozens of tests using the Xerox but that was only after over year of trying get the correct internal software or firmware for the machine.

    Many are wondering what is in Reed Hayes report? Well it looks like were seeing pieces of that report being presented in the presentations.

    The forensics involved is very very complex. Zullo tries to break it down in simpler terms but it is difficult. I seriously doubt anyone on this board could probably grasp of the forensics behind Zullo’s investigation.

  35. avatar
    Dave B. December 16, 2016 at 12:36 am #

    I’m seeing an awful lot of “I was never a birther but…” comments that sure sound an awful a lot alike, with chapter and verse technobabble from the “press conference.” Pretty funny.

  36. avatar
    gorefan December 16, 2016 at 12:45 am #

    Someone video from their tv.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L2Mcu2rkiFk

    At 2:00 minutes the first five points are entries on BCs that are somehow related.

  37. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG December 16, 2016 at 1:01 am #

    john: I seriously doubt anyone on this board could probably grasp of the forensics behind Zullo’s investigation

    It’s impossible to understand what does not exist, dumbass. As per usual, its Zullo vomiting horse#$@&, and tards like you lapping it up.

  38. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 16, 2016 at 1:13 am #

    I got another one of those crazy emails from the contact form:

    “Mike, This the day I’ve been waiting for. The sheriff finally brought the earth shaddering news. I hope you feel as vindicated as I do. God Bless, William”

  39. avatar
    gorefan December 16, 2016 at 1:15 am #

    Another tv screen grab. This one explains how the Zullo and Reed Hayes f-ed up the “x”s in the two check boxes. They looked at box 6d and 7e on Obama’s PDF and said they are identical to Box 6d on Ah’Nee’s. But they aren’t the same. Looking at the AP copy of Obama’s BC the x in box 7e is touching the word “no,” but that is not the case in his box 6d. They don’t understand that the Xerox changed pixels and filled some in black. That’s why the tail of the comma in the PDF is missing.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7EAxesVQ8wo

  40. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG December 16, 2016 at 1:17 am #

    So now that birtherism has had its last corpse gasp, what is left to talk about?

  41. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 16, 2016 at 1:40 am #

    I’ve been asking myself this question. It looks like the birther conspiracy has ended not with a bang but a whimper.

    If we ever get any of these forensic reports, we could critique them, or note that they don’t say what Zullo represents them to say.

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:
    So now that birtherism has had its last corpse gasp, what is left to talk about?

  42. avatar
    Dave B. December 16, 2016 at 1:55 am #

    Gillar’s over at The Atlantic, shillin’ an’ a-birferin’.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/12/sheriff-joe-arpaio-the-birther/510857/#article-comments

  43. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG December 16, 2016 at 1:59 am #

    Dave B.:
    Gillar’s over at The Atlantic, shillin’ an’ a-birferin’.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/12/sheriff-joe-arpaio-the-birther/510857/#article-comments

    What a turd. He can’t even argue on the internet right.

  44. avatar
    Dave B. December 16, 2016 at 2:12 am #

    So what I can’t figure out is what kind of legitimate document examiner would make an evaluation based on the comparison of two documents– these two birth certificates– neither of which they have in their possession. How’s that supposed to work?

  45. avatar
    Pete December 16, 2016 at 2:19 am #

    I got the video posted before it went 403. Unfortunately, I don’t see any way to save it.

    I actually went and did a direct comparison of all of the copied words they claimed, and made a graphic putting the two one right above the other.

    As always, it’s total horsesh*t.

    Here’s the graphic. Sorry, I got a little wordy with my notes on it.

    Tell me if you think I messed up anywhere. But I’m pretty sure everything I said is correct.

    http://i66.tinypic.com/scf320.jpg

    You can click on the image over at tinypic to make it full size.

  46. avatar
    gorefan December 16, 2016 at 2:23 am #

    Here is the entire press conference

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jk3KRxTfkLM

    The first five points of forgery are that if you use a typewriter to fill out a printed form some entries will line up with the same entries on another copy of the same form typed on the same or similar typewriter.

    The sixth and seventh points of forgery are that two hand stamps can’t be at the same angle by chance.

    The eighth and ninth points of forgery are that typed check boxes on two copies of the same form will look similar if the image is blurred by scanning software.

  47. avatar
    trader jack December 16, 2016 at 2:26 am #

    W. Kevin Vicklund: Actually, that is something I thought of.Back in 2015, I compared the Obama, Nordyke twins, and Ah’nee certificates.The placement of the dates don’t match (granted, I didn’t check the rotation, but the rotation on one is the opposite of the rotation of the other!), the “X in boxes” are all different, and the spacing between words and lines is consistent only insofar as they were likely typed on the same typewriter by the same typist, who almost certainly adjusted the paper as needed.

    Having lots of experience with typing myself, I can assert that it seldom necessary to adjust the paper when you are filing out a form , as the form is designed to have the same line spacing as a typewriter, so I don’t think you should use the term “certainly” to set forth a possibility .

    And to be accurate, I can state that I could not read the forms shown on the screen there. I could see some of the words, but not the x’s , which were not visible to me

  48. avatar
    Pete December 16, 2016 at 2:31 am #

    Did you catch that one of those last two contradicted the fourth one?

    Morons can’t even get their bullcrap straight.

  49. avatar
    Rickey December 16, 2016 at 2:58 am #

    john:

    The forensics involved is very very complex. Zullo tries to break it down in simpler terms but it is difficult. I seriously doubt anyone on this board could probably grasp of the forensics behind Zullo’s investigation.

    Zullo was counting on the fat that dummies like you wouldn’t be able to grasp what he was saying.

  50. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund December 16, 2016 at 3:41 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    HTTP error 403.

    Apparently, my backdoor method times out. I downloaded a copy, I could send it to you if you contact me.

  51. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG. December 16, 2016 at 4:51 am #

    Rickey: Zullo was counting on the fat that dummies like you wouldn’t be able to grasp what he was saying.

    I said it before, and I’ll say it again. john’s mother was drinking when she was pregnant with him, not enough to get the job done, obviously.

  52. avatar
    vladimir putin December 16, 2016 at 5:37 am #

    It’s all up to Trump now.

    And it’s doubtful Trump will pay any attention to Dr. Conspiracy.

  53. avatar
    Whatever4 December 16, 2016 at 5:45 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Comment I left at the News 12 web site:

    Good stuff, but I don’t see it.

    Maybe you could get Gillar to discuss? He’s posting all over the Atlantic article.

  54. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 16, 2016 at 8:15 am #

    john:
    Interesting discussion about the Xerox 7655. Apparently Zullo, conducted dozens and dozens of tests using the Xerox but that was only after over year of trying get the correct internal software or firmware for the machine.

    Many are wondering what is in Reed Hayes report? Well it looks like were seeing pieces of that report being presented in the presentations.

    The forensics involved is very very complex. Zullo tries to break it down in simpler terms but it is difficult. I seriously doubt anyone on this board could probably grasp of the forensics behind Zullo’s investigation.

    I doubt even actual forensic experts could grasp the logic of Zullos claims which is why over 212 such experts he called wouldn’t come to the conclusion he wanted.

  55. avatar
    gorefan December 16, 2016 at 8:32 am #

    Here is the AP copy of Obama’s birth certificate.

    http://abcnews.go.com/images/Politics/ap_obama_certificate_dm_110427.pdf

    Look at box 16, the word “Kansas”. It appears to me that the first “s” was typed over a mistype. Looks to me like they first typed “a” then overstruck the “s” to correct it.

    Not relevant to anything but just interesting. The AP image has a lot of detail.

  56. avatar
    Gerry Cathcart December 16, 2016 at 8:38 am #

    I wonder if the Ah’nee birth certificate is an accurate representation of the original certificate in Hawaii’s archives. Could it have been doctored to bring some points of forgery? Perhaps the box-X pieces were copied to her certificate from Obama’s for use as evidence?

  57. avatar
    gorefan December 16, 2016 at 9:07 am #

    Gerry Cathcart:
    I wonder if the Ah’nee birth certificate is an accurate representation of the original certificate in Hawaii’s archives. Could it have been doctored to bring some points of forgery? Perhaps the box-X pieces were copied to her certificate from Obama’s for use as evidence?

    Zullo seems to be saying that they are using the actual certified copy of the Ah’Nee certificate. And that Ah’Nee got that copy in 1995.

  58. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 16, 2016 at 9:17 am #

    gorefan: Zullo seems to be saying that they are using the actual certified copy of the Ah’Nee certificate.And that Ah’Nee got that copy in 1995.

    Using zullos logic you could claim the Ah’nee certificate was copied from obamas. Has the doh verified ah’nee’s certificate for zullo?

  59. avatar
    HistorianDude December 16, 2016 at 9:18 am #

    vladimir putin:
    The Forensic experts’ conclusions have to carry more weight than some self-declared expert with a blog.

    Except that the alleged “Forensic experts” apparently did no forensic experting. Reed is a handwriting analyst. Forlab is a digital forensics lab. Neither of those areas of expertise are especially useful for determining if two date stamps are at the same angle.

  60. avatar
    HistorianDude December 16, 2016 at 9:21 am #

    trader jack: Most important fact was the alignment of things placed on the document by the x’s and the x’s being exactly the same on two different documents, which, it appears to me, would cause a doubt about the document.

    Except… the X’s are not only NOT “exactly the same on two different documents,” they’re not even the same on one.

    Zullo and Gillar claim that one X-box from the Ah’Nee certificate was copied onto two different places on ther Obama certificate. But those two different X’s on the Obama document are not identical. The typed X is visibly in a different lateral relationship to the (allegedly also copied) “o” and period immediately above it.

    Worst. Forensic. Analysts. Ever.

  61. avatar
    HistorianDude December 16, 2016 at 9:25 am #

    trader jack:
    The sure went into a lot of work to find that out, if , in fact, it means anything.

    Well, you got that half right. They sure went into a lot of work. 5 years. All that time and money spent on Dennis Montgomery (whose “work” was never even mentioned as far as I can tell). The two previous press conferences, filled with “evidence of forgery” that appears to have been since abandoned. Trips all over the US.

    Work, work, work…

    And this is the best they got?

    The elephant hath labored mightily and delivered unto us… a mouse.

  62. avatar
    HistorianDude December 16, 2016 at 9:38 am #

    john: The forensics involved is very very complex.

    No, actually, it’s not.

    There is nothing Zullo presented yesterday that was derived from anything more sophisticated than by just looking at different elements of the certificates and subjectively declaring that they looked the same.

    Zullo tries to break it down in simpler terms but it is difficult. I seriously doubt anyone on this board could probably grasp of the forensics behind Zullo’s investigation.

    Nonsense. Zullo’s actual MO is to desperately try to make simple things sound more complex than they are.

    I noted years ago (for example) that in his affidavits regarding his original findings (all of which have apparently been subsequently abandoned) he engaged in technical hand-waving of such profound incompetence that it bordered on the comical. I assure you that there are several participants on this board who understand the technical details of this “analysis” at a depth to which Zullo could never aspire.

  63. avatar
    Cody Judy December 16, 2016 at 9:51 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I am an expert in Obama conspiracy theories, but not forensics.

    This is my favorite quote. The problem with a “Conspiracy Expert” in proving anything truthfully is a conundrum. It’s the nature of “not believing” that leads to ” not knowing”.

    This is all FAKE NEWS this whole Blog is designed to poke holes in anything we would call real by the totality of absurdity in reality and nothingness.

    All together now.. ohhhhhhhhhmmmm

    Nothing is real, Obama is not moving out of the White House, Trump didn’t win the election, and the U.S . Constitution is really so vague it’s transparent.You are not even really reading this.

    Doc can’t be sure of anything because it’s against the nature of conspiracy. It’s kind of like digging into a black hole and claiming space. 😂 For what? To poke holes in?

    It is entertaining though. We are entertained by the target practise of conspiracy and the idea of conspiracy as a blackhole consuming all light and revelation.

    The Obama Fabrication of identity documentation said to be real has been proven a Fraud. Fraud upon America by Obama. It’s really a self evident testimony Obama knows he’s not qualified according to the Constitution .

    Why else would he need to propagate the fabrication? What a shame reality has escaped conspiracy? Well. , only for Conspiracy Experts who consistently excuse Obama for 3 years of absence on his long form birth certificate and yet claim there’s no reason to produce one. Why did he then?

    The rest of us want Congress and the Court’s to step into the light and the reality.

    Natural Born Citizen – Born in the U.S. to Citizen Parents. It’s an American Civil Right reserved for the Office of PRESIDENT/ VP

  64. avatar
    bob December 16, 2016 at 10:50 am #

    Cody Judy: The Obama Fabrication of identity documentation said to be real has been proven a Fraud. Fraud upon America by Obama. It’s really a self evident testimony Obama knows he’s not qualified according to the Constitution .

    Ex-con Judy believes “somebody” forged a document that would prove President Obama wasn’t eligible under an imaginary two-citizen-parent “rule.”

    There’s dumb, and then there’s ex-con-Judy-level dumb.

  65. avatar
    bob December 16, 2016 at 10:54 am #

    gorefan: Zullo seems to be saying that they are using the actual certified copy of the Ah’Nee certificate.And that Ah’Nee got that copy in 1995.

    Zullo wasn’t very clear on this, but he was saying Ah’Nee had her birth certificate until President Obama released his. Meaning, if she isn’t a suspect (and Zullo never explained why she wasn’t), then the source document came from somewhere else, i.e., the HDOH.

  66. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 16, 2016 at 10:54 am #

    HistorianDude: The two previous press conferences, filled with “evidence of forgery” that appears to have been since abandoned. Trips all over the US.

    Well didn’t Mikey earlier in the year on gallups show claim they were abandoning the old evidence because it wasn’t getting them anywhere and were instead focusing on new evidence? Or was that arpaio. It’s clear though since the Ah’nee certificate destroys zullos race code claims

  67. avatar
    Michelle Arena December 16, 2016 at 10:55 am #

    Right on this site are the images of both birth certificates, Obama’s and Ah-Nee’s. If you compare the two, it is obvious the boxes with the X’s are different. Zullo claimed in his press conference that not only were the X’s carried over, but the entire box was carried over. I’m no expert, but you don’t have to be. It just that obvious. Same as the angle of the date at the bottom left of each certificate. Sullivan claims the angles are identical, but it’s obvious to the naked eye that one is clearly more slanted than the other. I can’t believe the people who are so quick to just accept this as fact. It’s actually quite disturbing.

  68. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 16, 2016 at 10:57 am #

    bob: Zullo wasn’t very clear on this, but he was saying Ah’Nee had her birth certificate until President Obama released hers. Meaning, if she isn’t a suspect (and Zullo never explained why she wasn’t),then the source document came from somewhere else, i.e., the HDOH.

    Yup that’s what they’re saying but at what time? Not 2011 since we already had the 2008 short form. Pre2007? Or dare we say 1961?

  69. avatar
    bob December 16, 2016 at 11:04 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Yup that’s what they’re saying but at what time?Not 2011 since we already had the 2008 short form. Pre2007?Or dare we say 1961?

    Birthers claim this mythical forgery occurred after the release of the short form (but before the release of the long form).

  70. avatar
    Pete December 16, 2016 at 11:33 am #

    john: The forensics involved is very very complex.

    No, it isn’t.

    They claim that 9 pieces of Ah’Nee’s certificate were copied over to parts of Obama’s certificate.

    If that were the case, then anybody with two eyes could see the very close, undeniable sameness if you just take each word from Ah’Nee’s certificate and visually compare it to the one on Obama’s that’s supposed to be the copy.

    This is so simple a third-grader can understand it, and make the comparison. Hell, my dog could almost understand it.

    Zullo tries to break it down in simpler terms but it is difficult. I seriously doubt anyone on this board could probably grasp of the forensics behind Zullo’s investigation.

    I agree with the earlier assessment. Zullo takes something that’s stupid simple and tries to make it sound complicated. He counts on gullible and wishful people like you to believe his intimation that it’s complicated. “Wow, that’s really complicated. They’ve done a great job there.”

    Zullo also claims to have “experts” who back him up, but he never tells us exactly what they said. He never releases any actual report from them.

    Why not? Because he KNOWS he’s spinning bullsh*t.

    Literally everything you need to know about Arpaio’s new claims is in the graphic I put together. Click on it a couple of times to get the full-size version. Even better, click on it a couple of times and then zoom with your browser view to get it to full page size. Then you can compare each image clearly and directly.

    http://i66.tinypic.com/scf320.jpg

  71. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG December 16, 2016 at 11:46 am #

    Cody Judy: This is my favorite quote.The problem with a “Conspiracy Expert” in proving anything truthfully is a conundrum.It’s the nature of “not believing” that leads to ” not knowing”.

    This is all FAKE NEWS this whole Blog is designed to poke holes in anything we would call real by the totality of absurdity in reality and nothingness.

    All together now..ohhhhhhhhhmmmm

    Nothing is real, Obama is not moving out of the White House, Trump didn’t win the election, and the U.S . Constitution is really so vague it’s transparent.You are not even really reading this.

    Doc can’t be sure of anything because it’s against the nature of conspiracy. It’s kind of like digging into a black hole and claiming space. For what? To poke holes in?

    It is entertaining though. We are entertained by the target practise of conspiracy and the idea of conspiracy as a blackhole consuming all light and revelation.

    The Obama Fabrication of identity documentation said to be real has been proven a Fraud. Fraud upon America by Obama. It’s really a self evident testimony Obama knows he’s not qualified according to the Constitution .

    Why else would he need to propagate the fabrication? What a shame reality has escaped conspiracy? Well. , only for Conspiracy Experts who consistently excuse Obama for 3 years of absence on his long form birth certificate and yet claim there’s no reason to produce one. Why did he then?

    The rest of us want Congress and the Court’s to step into the light and the reality.

    Natural Born Citizen – Born in the U.S. to Citizen Parents. It’s an American Civil Right reserved for the Office of PRESIDENT/ VP

    Go do something useful, like dying in a fire, Cody.

  72. avatar
    Pete December 16, 2016 at 11:46 am #

    PS – Every modern browser I’m aware of on Windows will let you zoom in by holding down the Control key and pressing the + key, and zoom out by holding down the Control key and pressing the – key. So you can easily get the graphic up to full page width.

  73. avatar
    HistorianDude December 16, 2016 at 11:58 am #

    Pete: Literally everything you need to know about Arpaio’s new claims is in the graphic I put together. Click on it a couple of times to get the full-size version. Even better, click on it a couple of times and then zoom with your browser view to get it to full page size. Then you can compare each image clearly and directly.

    http://i66.tinypic.com/scf320.jpg

    Well done.

  74. avatar
    Pete December 16, 2016 at 12:06 pm #

    The bottom line is this: Arpaio & Zullo’s new claims are completely without merit. You can tell just by comparing the things they said were copied that they don’t look the same. The closest they come is with the X’s in the boxes, but even those don’t appear to be the same.

    So they scoured two birth certificates trying to prove that something – ANYTHING – was digitally copied from one to the other. Even if you allow for the fact that digital documents are sometimes modified by later processes like JPEG optimization, the closest things they could find on the two documents were that the angles on the stamps are close to the same angle (even though the stamps themselves are clearly different!) and there are a couple of X’s that arguably look like they could be in the same place in the box.

    That’s it. There’s nothing else.

    And they claim that is “proof” of “forgery.”

    There isn’t a court in the entire country that wouldn’t angrily throw this out after a 15-minute inspection and verification of the graphic I created, unless the judge was Arpaio’s brother in law.

    I mean, the whole thing is laughable. There are particularly stark and irreconcilable differences in items 2, 3, 4 and 5.

    And thanks, HistorianDude.

  75. avatar
    Reality Check December 16, 2016 at 12:07 pm #

    Nice job Pete. I had come to the conclusion a while ago that all the Kapi’olani originated certificates from 1961 were typed on the same typewriter. There are certain letters that are shifted either vertically or horizontally that show up in all the certificates. It is not surprising that one clerk or nurse might be trained to prepare birth certificates and he or she would have used the same typewriter.

    This is strong evidence that both the Obama and Ahnee certificates are authentic.

  76. avatar
    gorefan December 16, 2016 at 12:20 pm #

    Reality Check:
    Nice job Pete. I had come to the conclusion a while ago that all the Kapi’olani originated certificates from 1961 were typed on the same typewriter. There are certain letters that are shifted either vertically or horizontally that show up in all the certificates. It is not surprising that one clerk or nurse might be trained to prepare birth certificates and he or she would have used the same typewriter.

    This is strong evidence that both the Obama and Ahnee certificates are authentic.

    FYI, typed on an Underwood typewriter.

  77. avatar
    Rickey December 16, 2016 at 12:44 pm #

    The Arizona Republic reports that half of the attendees were from the Surprise Tea Party, which explains the applause.

  78. avatar
    ellen December 16, 2016 at 12:56 pm #

    It might be useful to send an e-mail to Marco Fontani of ForLab and find out whether it really did say what the CCP claims that it said.

  79. avatar
    Joey December 16, 2016 at 1:10 pm #

    Cody Judy says: “The rest of us want Congress and the Court’s to step into the light and the reality.

    Natural Born Citizen – Born in the U.S. to Citizen Parents. It’s an American Civil Right reserved for the Office of PRESIDENT/ VP.”

    In 1898 the federal government’s Solicitor General asked the Supreme Court to rule on: “Are Chinese children born in this country to share with the descendants of the patriots of the American Revolution the exalted qualification of being eligible to the Presidency of the nation, conferred by the Constitution in recognition of the importance and dignity of citizenship by birth?”
    “To hold that Wong Kim Ark is a natural-born citizen within the ruling now quoted, is to ignore the fact that at his birth he became a subject of China by reason of the allegiance of his parents to the Chinese Emperor. That fact is not open to controversy, for the law of China demonstrates its existence. He was therefore born subject to a foreign power; and although born subject to the laws of the United States, in the sense of being entitled to and receiving protection while within the territorial limits of the nation—a right of all aliens—yet be was not born subject to the ‘political jurisdiction’ thereof, and for that reason is not a citizen. The judgment and order appealed from should be reversed, and the respondent remanded to the custody of the collector.”

    The Supreme Court ruled 6-2 that: “[An alien parent’s] allegiance to the United States is direct and immediate, and, although but local and temporary, continuing only so long as he remains within our territory, is yet, in the words of Lord Coke in Calvin’s Case, ’strong enough to make a natural subject, for, if he hath issue here, that issue is a natural-born subject’
    “Subject’ and ‘citizen’ are, in a degree, convertible terms as applied to natives; and though the term ‘citizen’ seems to be appropriate to republican freemen, yet we are, equally with the inhabitants of all other countries, ’subjects,’ for we are equally bound by allegiance and subjection to the government and law of the land.’
    “…every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject, unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born.
    III. The same rule was in force in all the English colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the constitution as originally established.”–U.S. v Wong Kim Ark (1898)

    When the two citizen parent theory was tested concerning the natural born citizenship of Barack Obama, the Indiana Court of Appeals ruled: “Based on the language of Article II, Section 1, Clause 4 and the guidance provided by Wong Kim Ark, we conclude that persons born within the United States are ‘natural born citizens’ for Article II, Section 1 purposes, regardless of the citizenship of their parents.”–Indiana Court of Appeals

    The Indiana Court of Appeals also explained: “As to President Obama‟s status, the most common argument has been waged by members of the so-called “birther” movement who suggest that the President was not born in the United States; they support their argument by pointing to “the President‟s alleged refusal to disclose publicly an “official birth certificate‟ that is satisfactory to [the birthers].” Rhodes v. MacDonald, No. 4:09-CV-106, 2009 WL 2997605, at *1 (M.D. Ga. Sept. 16, 2009), reconsideration denied by 2009 WL 3111834 (M.D. Ga. Sept. 18, 2009).
    The Plaintiffs in the instant case make a different legal argument based strictly on constitutional interpretation. Specifically, the crux of the Plaintiffs‟ argument is that “contrary to the thinking of most People on the subject, there‟s a very clear distinction between a “citizen of the United States‟ and a “natural born Citizen,‟ and the difference involves having [two] parents of U.S. citizenship, owing no foreign allegiance.” Appellants‟ Brief at 23. With regard to President Barack Obama, the Plaintiffs posit that because his father was a citizen of the United Kingdom, President Obama is constitutionally ineligible to assume the Office of the President.

    The basis of the Plaintiffs‟ arguments come from such sources as FactCheck.org, The Rocky Mountain News, an eighteenth century treatise by Emmerich de Vattel titled “The Law of Nations,” and various citations to nineteenth century congressional debate.
    For the reasons stated below, we hold that the Plaintiffs‟ arguments fail to state a claim upon which relief can be granted, and that therefore the trial court did not err in dismissing the Plaintiffs‟ complaint.”–Indiana Court of Appeals

    No subsequent court ruling in any jurisdiction, at any level of the judiciary has reversed Ankeny v Daniels.

  80. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG. December 16, 2016 at 1:15 pm #

    ellen:
    It might be useful to send an e-mail to Marco Fontani of ForLab and find out whether it really did say what the CCP claims that it said.

    Aside from shaming Zullo, there’s not much point. Its a dead matter, despite last night’s circus.

    Rickey:
    The Arizona Republic reports that half of the attendees were from the Surprise Tea Party, which explains the applause.

    So tea partiers and crickets were the audience then.

  81. avatar
    ellen December 16, 2016 at 1:30 pm #

    Another question, did they even get that “Johanna Ah’Nee birth certificate” from Johanna Ah’Nee??

    If not, and it seems not, who did they get it from and why didn’t they get one from Johanna Ah’Nee?

  82. avatar
    HistorianDude December 16, 2016 at 1:34 pm #

    ellen:
    Another question, did they even get that “Johanna Ah’Nee birth certificate” from Johanna Ah’Nee??

    If not, and it seems not, who did they get it from and why didn’t they get one from Johanna Ah’Nee?

    The chain of provenance seems to be:

    Ah’Nee > Booth
    Booth> Corsi
    Corsi > Zullo

  83. avatar
    ellen December 16, 2016 at 1:34 pm #

    Re: “Aside from shaming Zullo, there’s not much point. Its a dead matter, despite last night’s circus.”

    Of course, but still, these little things can be important. When you cover a story, and X says that “Y provided a report that said something,” you of course check with Y to find out if the report really did say what X claims.

    And the same with Johanna Ah’Nee. Did she provide her own birth certificate to the investigators or did they get something from a birther who got from another birther who could have fooled around with it?

  84. avatar
    ellen December 16, 2016 at 1:36 pm #

    Re:

    “Ah’Nee > Booth
    Booth> Corsi
    Corsi > Zullo

    And so there is no real proof that it really is her birth certificate and that it has not been fooled around with.

  85. avatar
    gorefan December 16, 2016 at 1:54 pm #

    Reality Check:
    Nice job

    This is one of the dopest things Zullo said yesterday,

    “AP distributed White House photos of the birth certificates purportedly that they took while they were there. Those are not AP photos; they are White House handout JPEG images create by the White House. That means the White House has the ability to create JPEGS. In those files those JPEGS were altered by Photoshop. Why are you creating Photoshopped enhanced JPEGS when you just have to take a picture of the document and put it up on the web.”

    Zullo is a complete moron. Either that or this is an image of Jake Tapper hold a JPEG

    http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/AP11042717236.jpg

    BTW, the Tapper image can be purchased from the AP as it was taken by Scott Applewhite.

  86. avatar
    Notorial Dissent December 16, 2016 at 2:00 pm #

    Any alleged forensic expert who looks at a multi-generational copy of a copy, and one copied across multiple platforms and altered in the process and then says anything other than that it is a copy is 1) a fool, 2) a liar, 3) incompetent, and that fits Zullo as well as his alleged experts.

  87. avatar
    Joey December 16, 2016 at 2:06 pm #

    gorefan: This is one of the dopest things Zullo said yesterday,

    “AP distributed White House photos of the birth certificates purportedly that they took while they were there.Those are not AP photos; they are White House handout JPEG images create by the White House. That means the White House has the ability to create JPEGS. In those files those JPEGS were altered by Photoshop.Why are you creating Photoshopped enhanced JPEGS when you just have to take a picture of the document and put it up on the web.”

    Zullo is a complete moron.Either that or this is an image of Jake Tapper hold a JPEG

    http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/AP11042717236.jpg

    BTW, the Tapper image can be purchased from the AP as it was taken by Scott Applewhite.

    Any Information Technology forensics expert will tell you that JPEGs do not like to be held.

  88. avatar
    HistorianDude December 16, 2016 at 2:45 pm #

    gorefan: This is one of the dopest things Zullo said yesterday,

    Zullo is comprehensively out of his depth whenever he tries to speak about technology. I have always enjoyed this gem of a paragraph from his November 9, 2101 affidavit:

    These and numerous other errors and anomalies observed from extensive forensic scrutiny of the electronic image downloaded from the White House website were inconsistent with features to be expected when a paper document is placed on the glass plate of a scanner so that it can be captured as an electro-photographic image, or when it is scanned and then processed either to enhance the clarity of the image by optical character recognition or to reduce file-size by file-compression or optimization .

    Noteworthy is the failed attempt by Zullo to sound technically competent by this paragraph’s egregious misuse of jargon he patently does not understand. For example Zullo completely misemploys the phrase “electro-photographic image” which is a term of art from photocopying and printing but has nothing to do with digitally scanning an image for publication to the web. Likewise, “optical character recognition” has nothing to do with “enhance(ing) the clarity” of a digital image, but is instead concerned with converting the analog image of text into digital data.

    He is a walking talking poster boy for the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

  89. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG. December 16, 2016 at 3:43 pm #

    HistorianDude: He is a walking talking poster boy for the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

    And the effects of lead paint chip eating.

  90. avatar
    trader jack December 16, 2016 at 3:53 pm #

    Oh, for heaven’s sake, the only evidence you need to prove the NBC argument is that the government has changed the rules, amended the constitution, and Congress has tried to pass rules eliminating the basic concept.

    the only thing you have to know is that a copy of a certified document is not a certified document, as the certification does not transfer with the duplication.

    the other thing that you have to know is that courts are not immune to being subject to political power, and the government has the power to coerce courts and entities to do things that the government wants done.

    the next thing you need to believe is that believers believe what they believe and reason will not convert them.

    And that no individual can affirm the birth statistics that are in the hands of government as they are only attested to by the person or agency that has filed the birth certificate with the recorder.

    It is an interesting, and meaningless , debate at this time and will only be solved by the FBI and who knows if you can trust the FBI , or the DOJ

    Yea, verily, I say upon you, enjoy the debate and trust not in the words of all. as some may be in error.

    It reminds me of a mechanic, whose customer said the car won’t start! the starter turns the engine, the lights are fully bright, the radio plays, and the fuel gauge shows the tank is full, and I need a tow to your garage. The mechanic comes to the house and the customer demonstrates the truth of what he said,
    The Mechanic then says: Sir, you are using the wrong key, you have to use the one with the black handle, as it contains the rfid that allows the car to start, and make sure the drive is in park ,next time. That will be $50 for the home call.

  91. avatar
    Curious George December 16, 2016 at 4:22 pm #

    Zullo will talk his head off when he is among Birther radio hosts, but put him in front of the any group of people that he can’t control, including the mainstream media, and Zullo will clam up. No questions were allowed yesterday. That tells me Zullo and Arpaio were skating on very thin ice. The fact that all of his previous evidence that he claimed amounted to probable cause was ignored is just another indicator of the man making decisions above his pay grade. He excels in incompetence and sleight of hand parlor illusions. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him on the WND payroll in the coming months.

  92. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 16, 2016 at 4:51 pm #

    I missed Arpaio’s opening remarks and the last 5 minutes or so. Did they say anything about releasing any of the reports?

    Curious George: No questions were allowed yesterday.

  93. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 16, 2016 at 5:19 pm #

    Zullo has said that before at some length.

    HistorianDude: enhance the clarity of the image by optical character recognition

  94. avatar
    bob December 16, 2016 at 5:35 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I missed Arpaio’s opening remarks and the last 5 minutes or so. Did they say anything about releasing any of the reports?

    Of course not; it was essentially implied that their garbage would be thrown at the next Congress.

  95. avatar
    bob December 16, 2016 at 5:46 pm #

    trader jack:
    Oh, for heaven’s sake, the only evidence you need to prove the NBC argument is that the government has changed the rules, amended the constitution, and Congress has tried to pass rules eliminating the basic concept.

    Yes: Attempts to change the requirement from those who were citizens at birth to those became citizens later in life. President Obama has been a U.S. citizen his entire life.

    the only thing you have to know is thata copy of a certified document is not a certified document, as the certification does not transfer with the duplication.

    A certified copy is an identifying document accepted everywhere in the United States. Why do you hate America?

    No one but no one is suggesting that a PDF is an acceptable identifying document.

    the other thing that you have to know is that courts are not immune to being subject to political power, and the government has the power to coerce courts and entities to do things that the government wants done.

    The only thing you have to know is that your speculation of wrongdoing is evidence only of your paranoid thoughts.

    And that no individual can affirm the birth statistics that are in the hands of government as they are only attested to by the person or agency that has filed the birth certificate with the recorder.

    A system used across the United States; why do you hate America?

    It is an interesting, and meaningless , debate at this time and will only be solved by the FBI and who knows if you can trust the FBI , or the DOJ

    There was nothing ever anything to “solve.”

  96. avatar
    Dave B. December 16, 2016 at 6:06 pm #

    We already know he’s not paying any attention to the poor saps who voted for him.

    vladimir putin: And it’s doubtful Trump will pay any attention to Dr. Conspiracy.

  97. avatar
    Dave B. December 16, 2016 at 6:08 pm #

    It really cracks me up that David Farrar, he of the famously selective superskepticism, accepts these new “revelations” as gospel.

    Michelle Arena: I can’t believe the people who are so quick to just accept this as fact. It’s actually quite disturbing.

  98. avatar
    Rickey December 16, 2016 at 6:56 pm #

    trader jack:

    the only thing you have to know is that a copy of a certified document is not a certified document, as the certification does not transfer with the duplication.

    I challenge you to identify one instance where anyone on this blog ever claimed that the PDF is a certified document.

    It is a copy of a certified document, although the authenticity of it has repeatedly been verified by the State of Hawaii.

  99. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 16, 2016 at 6:56 pm #

    john: I seriously doubt anyone on this board could probably grasp of the forensics behind Zullo’s investigation.

    Oh, john, john, john…..no one on this board (except you) has any trouble grasping what is behind Zullo’s investigation.

  100. avatar
    Dave B. December 16, 2016 at 7:00 pm #

    Okay, you gotta see this–
    http://www.wnd.com/2016/12/10-experts-and-analysts-who-doubt-obamas-birth-certificate/
    It’s almost enough to make me want to get a new Disqus account so they can ban me all over again.

  101. avatar
    Joey December 16, 2016 at 7:06 pm #

    trader jack:
    Oh, for heaven’s sake, the only evidence you need to prove the NBC argument is that the government has changed the rules, amended the constitution, and Congress has tried to pass rules eliminating the basic concept.

    theonly thing you have to know is thata copy of a certified document is not a certified document, as the certificationdoes not transfer with the duplication.

    the other thing that you have to know is that courts are not immune to being subject to political power, and the government has the power to coerce courts and entities to do things that the government wants done.

    the next thing you need to believe is that believers believe what they believe and reason will not convert them.

    And that no individual can affirm the birth statistics that are in the hands of government as they are only attested to by the person or agency that has filed the birth certificate with the recorder.

    It is an interesting, and meaningless , debate at this time and will only be solved by the FBI and who knows if you can trust the FBI , or the DOJ

    Yea, verily, I say upon you, enjoy the debate and trust not in the words of all. as some may be in error.

    It reminds me of a mechanic, whose customer said the car won’t start!the starter turns the engine, the lights are fully bright, the radio plays, and the fuel gauge shows the tank is full, and I need a tow to your garage.The mechanic comes to the house and the customer demonstrates the truth of what he said,
    The Mechanic then says:Sir, you are using the wrong key, you have to use the one with the black handle, as it contains the rfid that allows the car to start, and make sure the drive is in park ,next time.That will be $50 for the home call.

    Who would you trust, that is consistent with the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the U.S. Constitution, to verify a birth vital record?
    “Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.”– Article IV, Section 1

    The federal rules of evidence state that a copy of a public record is fine to use as evidence of birth if the copy contains a seal and a certification signature or if the keeper of the record attests to its accuracy. Photocopying will transfer the seal and certfication signature.
    No court has refused to allow certified copies of Obama’s birth certificate to be entered into evidence.

  102. avatar
    Reality Check December 16, 2016 at 7:56 pm #

    I notice they left out Albert Renshaw who has recanted all of his too hasty and flawed analysis of the LFBC based on his understanding of compression algorithms in the Xerox WorkCentre.

    Dave B.: Okay, you gotta see this–
    http://www.wnd.com/2016/12/10-experts-and-analysts-who-doubt-obamas-birth-certificate/

  103. avatar
    SFJEFF December 16, 2016 at 7:57 pm #

    I just want to state that it seems to me that the only point of this press conference is that it was one last moment for Arpaio to have a Birther press conference while he is sheriff.

    In a month or so he will just be Joe Private citizen- and his claim to official credibility- and Zullo’s faux credibility will vanish.

  104. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 16, 2016 at 7:58 pm #

    Dave B.:
    Okay, you gotta see this–
    http://www.wnd.com/2016/12/10-experts-and-analysts-who-doubt-obamas-birth-certificate/
    It’s almost enough to make me want to get a new Disqus account so they can ban me all over again.

    Wow zatkovich who never said it was a forgery and whose report they didn’t publish. Tim Adams lol he said Obama was eligible after and voted for him in 2012. I.notice Arpaio and zullo count as one person. They didn’t add Albert Renshaw?

  105. avatar
    john December 16, 2016 at 8:03 pm #

    Reality Check:
    I notice they left out Albert Renshaw who has recanted all of his too hasty and flawed analysis of the LFBC based on his understanding of compression algorithms in the Xerox WorkCentre.

    Mike Zullo makes the critical point that it took over a year to get the correct software for the Xerox since the birth certificate was alleglley scanned in 2011, therefore he needed the software from that time. Using the Xerox today would probably no good.

  106. avatar
    Dave B. December 16, 2016 at 8:15 pm #

    Albert’s unique among birthers in that he grew up.

    Reality Check:
    I notice they left out Albert Renshaw who has recanted all of his too hasty and flawed analysis of the LFBC based on his understanding of compression algorithms in the Xerox WorkCentre.

  107. avatar
    john December 16, 2016 at 8:16 pm #

    I think what Zullo is trying to so that is that both Reed Hayes and Italy used complex forensic analysis and methods to basically overlay Obama’s BC with Ah’Nee’s and discovered that parts of the birth certificate measured EXACTLY which is basically an impossibility unless there is computer manipulation involved. Although Zullo did not a copy of Obama’s BC (Just the PDF) he did have a copy of Ah-Nee’s BC. Zullo discovered through his experts the pieces of Ah’Nee’s BC matched to identical specifications to that of Obama’s BC. (In other words, some one did a copy paste to get the specs to match exactly right.)

  108. avatar
    Dave B. December 16, 2016 at 8:18 pm #

    When I saw the first name on the list, I knew this was going to be something else.

  109. avatar
    Dave B. December 16, 2016 at 8:19 pm #

    I think what Zullo’s trying to tell you is send more money. Before Christmas.

    john:
    I think what Zullo is trying to so that is that both Reed Hayes and Italy used complex forensic analysis and methods to basically overlay Obama’s BC with Ah’Nee’s and discovered that parts of the birth certificate measured EXACTLY which is basically an impossibility unless there computer manipulation involved.

  110. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG December 16, 2016 at 8:29 pm #

    john:
    I think what Zullo is trying to so that is that both Reed Hayes and Italy used complex forensic analysis and methods to basically overlay Obama’s BC with Ah’Nee’s and discovered that parts of the birth certificate measured EXACTLY which is basically an impossibility unless there is computer manipulation involved.Although Zullo did not a copy of Obama’s BC (Just the PDF) he did have a copy of Ah-Nee’s BC. Zullo discovered through his experts the pieces of Ah’Nee’s BC matched to identical specifications to that of Obama’s BC.(In other words, some one did a copy paste to get the specs to match exactly right.)

    Then how was it those findings where already discredited, you pleb?

  111. avatar
    bob December 16, 2016 at 8:36 pm #

    john: I think what Zullo is trying to so that is that both Reed Hayes and Italy used complex forensic analysis

    I think what Zullo is saying is that no one will ever, ever see these alleged analyses.

  112. avatar
    Joey December 16, 2016 at 8:47 pm #

    SFJEFF:
    I just want to state that it seems to me that the only point of this press conference is that it was one last moment for Arpaio to have a Birther press conference while he is sheriff.

    In a month or so he will just be Joe Private citizen- and his claim to official credibility- and Zullo’s faux credibility will vanish.

    The birther cult is hoping that a President Trump will appoint Arpaio to a federal pisition where he can continue his “work” on this “bital issue.”

  113. avatar
    Dave B. December 16, 2016 at 10:31 pm #

    He said he could get you a heck of a deal on that Clear Coat, too.

    trader jack: well, he did give the name of the Italian company, and did say that the two examiners came to the same conclusions.

    I think it will be in the supposed 50 page report that has been previously mentioned.

  114. avatar
    Dave B. December 16, 2016 at 11:47 pm #

    Lordy I thought I’d seen some crazy over this latest, but to see more crazy than you can shake a whole tree full of sticks at, you could just go to the trending Facebook page for this Arpaio thing. It’s got ” joe arpaio barack obama birth certificate ” in the search box and it is real special. It’s not even any fun to look at, there’s so much concentrated dumbassery there. Such sheer SCALE. I don’t even recommend doing more than getting a glance at it– that’s more ignorance than we could all handle, taking shifts. I’m just saying it’s there, and can give you an idea of how effective pure stupid crap like this can be.

  115. avatar
    RanTalbott December 16, 2016 at 11:56 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: I.notice Arpaio and zullo count as one person.

    Well, they only counted Timmy and Lassie as one person, too. And she had more useful accomplishments than Zullo.

  116. avatar
    RanTalbott December 17, 2016 at 12:01 am #

    Joey: The birther cult is hoping that a President Trump will appoint Arpaio to a federal pisition

    As things are going now, his “federal position” might wind up being “The Birtherman of Alcatraz”.

  117. avatar
    Pete December 17, 2016 at 3:01 am #

    john: I think what Zullo is trying to so that is that both Reed Hayes and Italy used complex forensic analysis and methods to basically overlay Obama’s BC with Ah’Nee’s and discovered that parts of the birth certificate measured EXACTLY which is basically an impossibility unless there is computer manipulation involved.

    john.

    Look. At. The. Images. For. Yourself.

    Here they are.

    Click on the graphic linked below a couple of times until you have it full size. Then hold down the Control key and press the + key until the image fills the page (Control minus is the reverse of this).

    Look. At. The. Images. For. Yourself.

    There’s hardly any letter in any word they claim was copied that actually looks like it WAS copied. A couple of the X boxes are arguable, but arguable is not proof of anything.

    Meanwhile, they literally contradicted themselves in the video.

    It’s clear to anyone with one eye and even half reason that their claims are total bullsh*t.

    Here’s the graphic:

    http://i66.tinypic.com/scf320.jpg

  118. avatar
    Pete December 17, 2016 at 3:05 am #

    The last two of these are about the closest. But item #8 definitely appears slightly further left in Obama’s certificate, and item #9 appears slightly higher in Obama’s certificate.

    Even if they were in “exactly the same place,” or at least indistinguishable, that wouldn’t prove anything. Similarities happen. You could probably take scans of any two birth certificates from Hawaii in August of 1961, and make the same type of claim Arpaio and Zullo have made.

    There’s almost always going to be something that looks very similar between two certificates, especially if they were both typed in the same month, in the same office, on the same typewriter, by the same person.

    Some of the rest of the words that they claim are copied are so clearly different as to be downright laughable.

    Really, it doesn’t take anything remotely approaching a “forensics expert” to see this.

  119. avatar
    trader jack December 17, 2016 at 4:22 am #

    Joey: The federal rules of evidence state that a copy of a public record is fine to use as evidence of birth if the copy contains a seal and a certification signature or if the keeper of the record attests to its accuracy. Photocopying will transfer the seal and certfication signature

    A certified copy is accepted as evidence, not as proof.

    Authentication requires a court to certify and the government to sign the authentication.
    And , even then , it will not guarantee that the document is true!

    Only that it is a true copy of the document. Oh, I think the government could guarantee the accuracy of the document that they produce and record, but they normally do that to hide the identity of the person described in the birth record.

    Why on earth do you all think the information is correct when you know the adopted children have a birth certificate issued that contain the names of parents who are not the genetic parents of the children

  120. avatar
    trader jack December 17, 2016 at 4:26 am #

    Pete:
    The last two of these are about the closest. But item #8 definitely appears slightly further left in Obama’s certificate, and item #9 appears slightly higher in Obama’s certificate.

    Even if they were in “exactly the same place,” or at least indistinguishable, that wouldn’t prove anything. Similarities happen. You could probably take scans of any two birth certificates from Hawaii in August of 1961, and make the same type of claim Arpaio and Zullo have made.

    There’s almost always going to be something that looks very similar between two certificates, especially if they were both typed in the same month, in the same office, on the same typewriter, by the same person.

    Some of the rest of the words that they claim are copied are so clearly different as to be downright laughable.

    Really, it doesn’t take anything remotely approaching a “forensics expert” to see this.

    Pete. that is why they used the information placed on the form by people that placed additional information on the document

    that information is the date stamps, the registration and signature, and any check marks , such as the numbers on the sides of the form.

  121. avatar
    Yoda December 17, 2016 at 7:13 am #

    Many excellent points raised here. Might I add another that has not been mentioned. I only watched the first 15 minutes before I was ready to puke, but the overriding point l got was that all of the so called expert forensic analysis was based on the ASSUMPTION that Gillar’s alleged conclusition about the rotation of one of the documents was accurate.

    My favorite point raised above is that Zullo claims that it was statistically impossible for the nine points to line up perfectly without manipulation, but we are just to accept the fact that he was fortunate enough to have in his possession the source document out of the millions of potential source documents that he doesn’t have. And he said it with a straight face. Now what is the statistical probability of that?

  122. avatar
    Reality Check December 17, 2016 at 8:54 am #

    I haven’t watched or listened to any of this but from reading a summary by bob at the Fogbow I gather that on Hagman Zullo said they did extensive testing and confirmed that the Xerox WorkCentre does exactly what we told him that it does. He just wasn’t able to to duplicate the layers exactly. Well no sh!t Sherlock! You don’t have the original document to use in the tests. You have a printout of the document. So did I. We confirmed how MRC and JBIG2 compression worked and showed it caused the same types of features in the PDF files.

    NBC and I found you didn’t even get identical results by scanning the same document on the glass vs. using the automatic document feeder. The orientation matters too.

    So now everything Zullo told you about the LFBC in the first two press conferences needs to be forgotten. Now Gillar constructed a new theory that the Obama LFBC was made using the Ah’Nee BC when it clearly wasn’t. It took Pete minutes to debunk that one. No wonder Zullo was scared to take questions after the latest farce.

  123. avatar
    Curious George December 17, 2016 at 9:21 am #

    Posted by bob at Fogbow:

    “WND: 10 Experts and Analysts Who Doubt Obama’s Birth Certificate:

    1. Ron Polland, researcher;
    2. Mara Zebest, computer expert;
    3. Ivan Zatkovich, telecommunications consultant;
    4. Karl Denninger, technology businessman and web expert;
    5. Tom Harrison, software designer;
    6. Paul Irey, typographer;
    7. Israel Hanukoglu, researcher;
    8. Doug Vogt, expert on scanners and document-imaging software;
    9. Tim Adams, Hawaii elections clerk; and
    10. Mike Zullo and Sheriff Joe Arpaio.”

    Comment:
    WND….Please give us the formal educational background that would qualify Mike Zullo as an expert in anything, other than used car sales.

  124. avatar
    gorefan December 17, 2016 at 9:33 am #

    Pete:
    The last two of these are about the closest. But item #8 definitely appears slightly further left in Obama’s certificate, and item #9 appears slightly higher in Obama’s certificate.

    Even if they were in “exactly the same place,” or at least indistinguishable, that wouldn’t prove anything. Similarities happen. You could probably take scans of any two birth certificates from Hawaii in August of 1961, and make the same type of claim Arpaio and Zullo have made.

    There’s almost always going to be something that looks very similar between two certificates, especially if they were both typed in the same month, in the same office, on the same typewriter, by the same person.

    Some of the rest of the words that they claim are copied are so clearly different as to be downright laughable.

    Really, it doesn’t take anything remotely approaching a “forensics expert” to see this.

    The check boxes is the stupidest part of their argument. Those are fixed locations on a birth certificate form, typewriters have fixed letter spacing (for the most part) and fixed line spacing. Xs are going to fall with the same area on just about every form

  125. avatar
    john December 17, 2016 at 9:37 am #

    Pete: john.

    Look. At. The. Images. For. Yourself.

    Here they are.

    Click on the graphic linked below a couple of times until you have it full size. Then hold down the Control key and press the + key until the image fills the page (Control minus is the reverse of this).

    Look. At. The. Images. For. Yourself.

    There’s hardly any letter in any word they claim was copied that actually looks like it WAS copied. A couple of the X boxes are arguable, but arguable is not proof of anything.

    Meanwhile, they literally contradicted themselves in the video.

    It’s clear to anyone with one eye and even half reason that their claims are total bullsh*t.

    Here’s the graphic:

    http://i66.tinypic.com/scf320.jpg

    To the drift of what Zullo is saying…you simply can’t tell by the naked eye. But using forensics methods, they have been able to determine that pieces of Ah’Nee BC are IDENTICAL to Obama’s BC indicating a a Cut and Paste Job. The important part of the Arpaio press conference is that have listen closely to the narrative and how things evolved as Zullo discusses them.

  126. avatar
    john December 17, 2016 at 9:42 am #

    gorefan: The check boxes is the stupidest part of their argument.Those are fixed locations on a birth certificate form, typewriters have fixed letter spacing (for the most part) and fixed line spacing. Xs are going to fall with the same area on just about every form

    Same area but not the exact same spot. Zullo is saying that check marks are a spot on match to each BC. Even if they were off by the slightly measurements they could tell, but they saying that the 2 match indentically just like a fingerprint. It’s theoritically possible but highly unlikely given that the birth certificates were signed 16 days apart. It is a compelling argument.

  127. avatar
    Gerry Cathcart December 17, 2016 at 9:44 am #

    Zullo’s narrative during the press conference does not indicate that he was trying to “clear the President and let the country move forward.” In fact he describes his expert (X-Spurt) Mark Gillar playing with images until he finally found something that supported Zullo’s story line (can’t call it a theory) that the birth certificate is fake. He certainly did not follow the evidence. I fail to see any evidence in what was presented. If the mathematics from Italy boggles Zullo’s mind, I wonder if he can really vouch for their analysis. Why do you hire an expert in child porn to review birth certificate anomalies. Name one expert in the world that has a CV loaded with cases pdf document authentication when the original is absent. What is the chain of custody of the reference birth certificate? Did the CCP buy a copier with the donated funds. Where is the accounting of the posse expenses? I ramble. To quote (paraphrase) Stephen Lemons after the second press conference: ‘Arpaio and Zullo added exactly nothing to their running total of zero evidence.” I think the sentiment still applies. No evidence IMHO.

  128. avatar
    HistorianDude December 17, 2016 at 10:38 am #

    john: Mike Zullo makes the critical point that it took over a year to get the correct software for the Xerox since the birth certificate was alleglley scanned in 2011, therefore he needed the software from that time. Using the Xerox today would probably no good.

    On the Hagman & Son show Zullo essentially conceded the entire Xerox explanation of the “digital anomalies” that were the basis of his first three or so years of the investigation.

  129. avatar
    bob December 17, 2016 at 10:47 am #

    john: you simply can’t tell by the naked eye. But using forensics methods,

    But you can tell (“by the naked eye”) that they aren’t identical, not withstanding your weak denials.

    And you have no idea if anyone used “forensic methods” because they will never, ever show the reports.

    It is a compelling argument.

    Only those predisposed to agree are so compelled; everyone else treats it like the junk it is.

  130. avatar
    HistorianDude December 17, 2016 at 10:50 am #

    john:
    I think what Zullo is trying to so that is that both Reed Hayes and Italy used complex forensic analysis and methods to basically overlay Obama’s BC with Ah’Nee’s and discovered that parts of the birth certificate measured EXACTLY which is basically an impossibility unless there is computer manipulation involved.

    I’m quite sure he’s trying to give that impression. But none of it is true on its face.

    The first 5 “points of forgery” are simply the result of tab stops on the original typewriter. We’ll ignore the idiotic “theory of forgery” that would have any rational human being choose to copy those specific 5 elements over in one piece in the first place.

    But examining the two documents shows even with the naked eye that there is nothing “exact” about it. It is at best “close,” and this is neither horseshoes nor hand grenades.

  131. avatar
    john December 17, 2016 at 10:53 am #

    HistorianDude: On the Hagman & Son show Zullo essentially conceded the entire Xerox explanation of the “digital anomalies” that were the basis of his first three or so years of the investigation.

    Zullo did admit that he was chasing down a rabbit hole when is came to Xerox. He needed to look at this document anew from different prespective and methadology which is why the investigation has been taking so long.

  132. avatar
    HistorianDude December 17, 2016 at 11:08 am #

    john: To the drift of what Zullo is saying…you simply can’t tell by the naked eye.

    Except, yes actually. You can.

  133. avatar
    HistorianDude December 17, 2016 at 11:12 am #

    john: Zullo did admit that he was chasing down a rabbit hole when is came to Xerox. He needed to look at this document anew from different prespective and methadology which is why the investigation has been taking so long.

    Actually, Zullo also said that these “new” results came in the last 7 months. All the previous 5 years of work (to include the apparently tens of thousands of dollars spent on Dennis Montgomery) failed to come up with evidence of forgery.

    This begs the question:

    If five years of “investigation” have failed to actually come up with evidence of fraud… why continue the investigation?

    The answer of course is that this was never an investigation and Zullo has no genuine interest in the facts. He was on a witch hunt that failed… and he simply refuses to admit it.

    As you simply refuse to admit it.

    The President’s birth certificate (heck… merely an internet IMAGE of the President’s birth certificate) has survived five years of effort to prove it a fraud. The only fraud here is…. wait for it…

    Mike Zullo.

  134. avatar
    HistorianDude December 17, 2016 at 11:17 am #

    john: Same area but not the exact same spot. Zullo is saying that check marks are a spot on match to each BC.Even if they were off by the slightly measurements they could tell, but they saying that the 2 match indentically just like a fingerprint. It’s theoritically possible but highly unlikely given that the birth certificates were signed 16 days apart. It is a compelling argument.

    It is conceivably (but not actually) a compelling argument if it is true.

    But it’s not even that.

  135. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG December 17, 2016 at 11:22 am #

    john: Zullo did admit that he was chasing down a rabbit hole when is came to Xerox. He needed to look at this document anew from different prespective and methadology which is why the investigation has been taking so long.

    In others words his old lies weren’t working, so he presented new lies.
    Obama leaves office in just over a month. His legitimacy intact. Deal with it, bitch!

  136. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 17, 2016 at 11:26 am #

    john: investigation.

    Zullo did admit that he was chasing down a rabbit hole when is came to Xerox. He needed to look at this document anew from different prespective and methadology which is why the investigation has been taking so long.

    The problem being he was looking for a rabbit hole while high on mushrooms. He ended up not in a rabbit hole but in a huge pile of dung he created.

  137. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 17, 2016 at 11:29 am #

    HistorianDude: The first 5 “points of fforgers to ” are simply the result of tab stops on the original typewriter. We’ll ignore the idiotic “theory of forgery” that would have any rational human being choose to copy those specific 5 elements over in one piece in the first place.

    There’s also the point that could be argued that using the same theory the Ah’nee certificate was forged from the Obama certificate. His came first and there has been no verification nor chain of custody like with the 675 15th St NW document

  138. avatar
    bob December 17, 2016 at 11:59 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: There’s also the point that could be argued that using the same theory the Ah’nee certificate was forged from the Obama certificate.

    In fact, Zullo was gloating how easy it was to obtain security paper, a stamp, and a seal. Even a idiot like Zullo could draw upon the prior “research” of others and crank out the Ah’Nee certificate.

  139. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 17, 2016 at 12:17 pm #

    john: But using forensics methods, they have been able to determine that pieces of Ah’Nee BC are IDENTICAL to Obama’s BC indicating a a Cut and Paste Job.

    So, john, what is your explanation for why they won’t release the reports to the public so we can see what “forensics methods” they used to reach their conclusions?

  140. avatar
    Arthur B. December 17, 2016 at 1:27 pm #

    john: To the drift of what Zullo is saying…you simply can’t tell by the naked eye. But using forensics methods, they have been able to determine that pieces of Ah’Nee BC are IDENTICAL to Obama’s BC indicating a a Cut and Paste Job.

    I understand the argument that two image fragments that appear identical to the naked eye can be revealed to be distinguishable through magnification and other investigative techniques.

    But you seem to be saying the opposite — that two images fragments that are clearly distinguishable to the naked eye can become identical through forensic examination.

    That makes no sense to me. Are you sure you wish to associate yourself with that point of view?

  141. avatar
    Reality Check December 17, 2016 at 1:37 pm #

    john seems to have forgotten Zullo’s previous multiple statements that the Xerox theory had been completely debunked. It seems those statements like the first two press conferences are no longer operative.

  142. avatar
    Dave B. December 17, 2016 at 3:47 pm #

    So it’s one of them optical illusion things, like when they show you two circles and one looks like it’s bigger but it ain’t? Or like when they show two lines with arrowheads on ’em, and one looks longer but it ain’t? You got to use forensic methods to tell.
    That’s as hard as I want to try getting inside John’s head. It’s cramped in there.

    john: To the drift of what Zullo is saying…you simply can’t tell by the naked eye. But using forensics methods, they have been able to determine that pieces of Ah’Nee BC are IDENTICAL to Obama’s BC indicating a a Cut and Paste Job. The important part of the Arpaio press conference is that have listen closely to the narrative and how things evolved as Zullo discusses them.

  143. avatar
    Dave B. December 17, 2016 at 3:50 pm #

    Remember back a few years ago he was struggling with turning an “8” upside down. With all the tricks he’s learned, if he ever goes back to selling used cars, watch out!

    bob: In fact, Zullo was gloating how easy it was to obtain security paper, a stamp, and a seal. Even a idiot like Zullo could draw upon the prior “research” of othersand crank out the Ah’Nee certificate.

  144. avatar
    Dave B. December 17, 2016 at 3:55 pm #

    Christmas is coming, and presents are expensive. Nice ones, anyway. Got to squeeze the last few dimes out while they can.

    HistorianDude: If five years of “investigation” have failed to actually come up with evidence of fraud… why continue the investigation?

  145. avatar
    bob December 17, 2016 at 4:47 pm #

    HistorianDude: If five years of “investigation” have failed to actually come up with evidence of fraud… why continue the investigation?

    Gallups continuously says that (he and) Arpaio, Zullo, birthers, etc., have been “vindicated”; conversely, the media, the federal government, etc., have been shown to be “implicated.”

    Of course, Gallups is only congratulating himself; it is pure ego and vanity. Perhaps motivated by the dark thoughts of have wasted so much of one’s time (and money) on … nothing.

    And, of course, as Dave B. suggests, the suckers ain’t gonna grift themselves.

  146. avatar
    Loren December 17, 2016 at 6:01 pm #

    HistorianDude: If five years of “investigation” have failed to actually come up with evidence of fraud… why continue the investigation?

    Especially if, as Zullo and Arpaio both *repeatedly* claimed, the purpose of their investigation was to “clear” President Obama of any wrongdoing.

    Because if you’re sincerely trying to exonerate someone, and your initial evidence falls apart and turns out to be perfectly consistent with innocent behavior, why would you spend an additional FOUR YEARS searching for an alternative theory of incrimination?

    Unless, that is, your motive was never to *clear* someone at all.

  147. avatar
    bob December 17, 2016 at 6:10 pm #

    Loren:
    Because if you’re sincerely trying to exonerate someone, and your initial evidence falls apart and turns out to be perfectly consistent with innocent behavior

    NOPE NOPE NOPE: Zullo “explained” (on Hagman and son) that the Xerox evidence wasn’t “courtroom ready,” i.e., they had doubts they could convince 12 (unsophisticated) jurors beyond a reasonable doubt. /birther

  148. avatar
    Dave B. December 17, 2016 at 6:18 pm #

    I think they could’ve had a reasonable expectation of getting that nonsense past an amenable jury. 2016, anybody? The problem would’ve been getting it past the judge and opposing counsel. Or getting it to a case in the first place.

    bob: NOPE NOPE NOPE: Zullo “explained” (on Hagman and son) that the Xerox evidence wasn’t “courtroom ready,” i.e., they had doubts they could convince 12 (unsophisticated) jurors beyond a reasonable doubt./birther

  149. avatar
    bob December 17, 2016 at 6:38 pm #

    Dave B.: he problem would’ve been getting it past the judge and opposing counsel. Or getting it to a case in the first place.

    Exactly: The prosecutor decides to file charges, and Arpaio never intended to take this “evidence” to a prosecutor. Gallups’ “courtroom-ready evidence” always was and still is smoke to be blown up birthers’ asses. (P.S.: Send money.)

  150. avatar
    Dave B. December 17, 2016 at 7:56 pm #

    Scandalous web address.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    USA Today picked up the story:

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/12/15/sheriff-joe-arpaio-probe-proves-obama-birth-certificate-fake/95500958/

  151. avatar
    trader jack December 17, 2016 at 7:58 pm #

    when you look at the dates you showed in your original posting, you can see, if you underline them,, that the year dates are printed at a different angle , than the day and month figures,

    Why that happens I do not know, but it does seem odd that the date stamp would have a difference like that in a movable stamp with adjustable figures.

    And, I think what he is saying , that that date stamp was used in 1961

    but hell makes no difference to me.

  152. avatar
    bob December 17, 2016 at 8:07 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: USA Today picked up the story

    Birther reaction to this story is as predicted: they are upset but not surprised that USA Today did not demand that Arpaio be given a ticket-tape parade, a medal, and his old job back.

  153. avatar
    john December 17, 2016 at 10:44 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    USA Today picked up the story:

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/12/15/sheriff-joe-arpaio-probe-proves-obama-birth-certificate-fake/95500958/

    I see that. It has a lot of comments, most of the negative. Where are all the birthers? But then again USA Today is mainstream news therefore is liberal and therefore is unrealiable.

  154. avatar
    CarlOrcas December 17, 2016 at 11:24 pm #

    john: But then again USA Today is mainstream news therefore is liberal and therefore is unrealiable.

    Actually, john, it’s a story from the Arizona Republic. But that begs the question: What exactly do you find “unrealiable” about it?

  155. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 18, 2016 at 12:29 am #

    Birthers, with a few exceptions, hang out on sleazy YouTube channels and tabloid websites. They avoid things that challenge their views. You, to your credit, expose yourself to the wider world.

    john: I see that. It has a lot of comments, most of the negative. Where are all the birthers? But then again USA Today is mainstream news therefore is liberal and therefore is unrealiable.

  156. avatar
    SFJEFF December 18, 2016 at 12:52 am #

    I am in no way going to watch the Joe and Zullo dog and pony show- but I know there are those of you who have stronger stomachs than I do.

    What did either of them say that they were going to ‘do’ with this supposed evidence?

    Any referral to the Attorney General of Arizona?
    The AG of Hawaii?
    The State Police of Hawaii?
    The FBI?

    Real law enforcement officials do more with proof of fraud than hold press conferences or sign book deals.

  157. avatar
    bob December 18, 2016 at 3:25 am #

    SFJEFF: What did either of them say that they were going to ‘do’ with this supposed evidence?

    The strongest inference was an intent to dump the junk on Congress before Arpaio leaves, i.e., this (lame-duck) Congress. Comments elsewhere, suggest that the next administration and next Congress will receive the “genius.”

  158. avatar
    Rickey December 18, 2016 at 3:28 am #

    john: I see that. It has a lot of comments, most of the negative. Where are all the birthers? But then again USA Today is mainstream news therefore is liberal and therefore is unrealiable.

    Open your eyes. The story was written by Megan Cassidy of the Arizona Republic, not by a USA Today reporter.

  159. avatar
    Gerry Cathcart December 18, 2016 at 11:17 am #

    A prosecutor that took this case to court by filing criminal charges might well be subject to bar action for filing charges without evidence. There is virtually no support that a crime was committed. Overcoming that would be unlikely. I believe that the universe would indeed shatter if one could convict beyond a reasonable doubt with Zullo’s “evidence.” The only thing that would shatter would be the career of an inept prosecutor.

  160. avatar
    JD Reed December 18, 2016 at 11:21 am #

    vladimir putin:
    It’s all up to Trump now.

    And it’s doubtful Trump will pay any attention to Dr. Conspiracy.

    Nor will he pay any attention to the birthers since you’ve served his purpose. He will treat you like yesterday’s trash.

  161. avatar
    dunstvangeet December 18, 2016 at 12:09 pm #

    Gerry Cathcart:
    A prosecutor that took this case to court by filing criminal charges might well be subject to bar action for filing charges without evidence. There is virtually no support that a crime was committed. Overcoming that would be unlikely. I believe that the universe would indeed shatter if one could convict beyond a reasonable doubt with Zullo’s “evidence.” The only thing that would shatter would be the career of an inept prosecutor.

    There’s another reason why this will never hit a courtroom. If they were ever to file criminal charges, then the prosecution would actually have to give the defense the two reports (the one from Reed Hayes, and then the new one from the Italian Firm) as part of discovery. It would be known exactly what these two reports actually say, and what they don’t say (I have a feeling that Zullo exaggerates the conclusions in both reports). They’d be open to scrutiny by other forensic scientists. They would actually be subject to the Daubert test within the court (and would likely fail miserably).

  162. avatar
    HistorianDude December 18, 2016 at 1:06 pm #

    dunstvangeet: (I have a feeling that Zullo exaggerates the conclusions in both reports).

    He has a demonstrated propensity for doing so.

    We first learned the name “Reed Hayes” during his presentation to the “Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officer’s Association” back on on June 1, 2013. In a video (narrated by Gillar) the claim was made that “Some of the anomalies that we have pointed out today were first discovered by a certified document examiner named Reed Hayes. ”

    In actuality, none of the “anomalies” pointed out in that presentation were first discovered by Hayes. Every single one of them was already old news at the time of the Posse’s first press conference in March of 2012, long before Hayes and the Posse had ever crossed paths. Hayes was being given credit for things that he did not deserve primarily because the real source of these claims were from rank amateurs on the Internet via Jerome Corsi.

  163. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 18, 2016 at 2:01 pm #

    I apologize for previously listing “sactoisintolerant” as an alias for putin. hat’s wrong.

    Dr. Conspiracy: Putin was banned a very long time ago

  164. avatar
    Rickey December 18, 2016 at 5:44 pm #

    Gerry Cathcart:
    A prosecutor that took this case to court by filing criminal charges might well be subject to bar action for filing charges without evidence. There is virtually no support that a crime was committed. Overcoming that would be unlikely. I believe that the universe would indeed shatter if one could convict beyond a reasonable doubt with Zullo’s “evidence.” The only thing that would shatter would be the career of an inept prosecutor.

    There also is no suspect. They can’t file criminal charges without a defendant.

  165. avatar
    Bambusar December 18, 2016 at 6:04 pm #

    I was able to disprove 7 out of 9 Points Of Forgery. Remaining 2 are “more likely so than not” type of proof. Nor me nor Arpaio know what are the odds for document to have two stamps with angle as similar as angle is similar on Obamas and Johannas BC.

    I proved that 2 “box square, X and o.” groups on Obamas BC are not copy pasted (and used twice unchanged as Zullo claims) from Johannas BC.

    Second images are showing how hard it is to determine exact angle of 2 date stamps in such low resolution scans. Mike Zullo said that angles are exactly the same. Which is not true, you can only prove that angles look the same with some tolerance. From my images you can see that ~0.5° change in angle is not detectable. Zullo didnt bother to check what are the odds of two stamps being within those tolerances.

    Last images are about remaining 5 fields for which Zullo claims that were directly copied from Johannas BC to Obamas BC. He claims that all 5 fields are in same position relative to each other. I tried rotating and even changing aspect ratio of pdfs to find if this is true, but I can not reproduce what Zullo claims Mike did in that blurry video. Typewriter words and letters dont match at all. They are way off, not even close.

    Here are my much better proofs made in few hours debunking 5 years of “hard forensics work”. http://imgur.com/gallery/qB8NG

  166. avatar
    RanTalbott December 19, 2016 at 1:48 am #

    bob: The strongest inference was an intent to dump the junk on Congress before Arpaio leaves

    If there is a $DEITY, or karma, they’ll send it by certified mail, with the Clueless Clown Posse’s return address, and Congress will refuse to sign for it.

  167. avatar
    JD Reed December 19, 2016 at 11:17 am #

    The rest of us want Congress and the Court’s to step into the light and the reality.

    Natural Born Citizen – Born in the U.S. to Citizen Parents. It’s an American Civil Right reserved for the Office of PRESIDENT/ VP

    Cody, will you point out precisely where in the Constitution that it says the president and the vp must be born to two citizen parents? It’s not a long document, and it’s well-organized, so the challenge I’m issuing shouldn’t be hard — if such a requirement can be found. But if it can’t be found, it shows that in this instance you’re blowing smoke, not unlike a lot of other stuff you’ve posted.
    And exactly who are the “us” that want Congress and the court’s (sic) to “step into the light and reality.”
    I don’t notice any great clamor from the public to demand that authorities pick up this discredited cause again.
    As for the courts, they’ve turned thumbs-down on this quixotic obsession on multiple occasions in multiple jurisdictions.
    Who was it that defined insanity as keeping on doing the same thing and expecting different results?

  168. avatar
    Fuzz T. Was December 19, 2016 at 4:42 pm #

    Well, the big day finally arrived.

    Zullo now has a court qualified Question Document Examiner (Hayes) and a Multimedia Forensic Lab expert, (“Marco”) whose expertise, would allow them to testify in a court of law that the Obama’s LFBC is fake. Their testimony would be admitted in court as evidence. Of course, they would be subject to cross examination as to knowledge, training, experience and the reason for their conclusion.

    Do you have any counter evidence acceptable in court? Do you have a document examiner to counter Hayes or a forensic data examiner to counter “Marco”? If you do, please identify them, what they have determined about the document, and provide their curriculum vitae.

  169. avatar
    Reality Check December 19, 2016 at 5:23 pm #

    Could you tell us what statute was violated? How about the name of a suspect? Oh and what in what jurisdiction this will case will prosecuted?

    Moron

    Fuzz T. Was: Do you have any counter evidence acceptable in court?

  170. avatar
    Dave B. December 19, 2016 at 5:33 pm #

    Okay, here’s a funny one for you– in comments on articles about this press conference, with all its references to Johanna Ah’nee’s birth certificate, birthers are STILL pointing to Barack Obama, Sr.’s reported race as proof of something fishy goin’ on.
    https://disqus.com/home/discussion/lawnewz/breaking_sheriff_joe_arpaio_says_investigation_8216concludes8217_obama8217s_birth_certificate_is_821/#comment-3059888457

  171. avatar
    Dave B. December 19, 2016 at 5:35 pm #

    Here’s the rare and very exceptional Shaun Hayler, who looked at both sides and changed his opinion:
    https://disqus.com/home/discussion/lawnewz/breaking_sheriff_joe_arpaio_says_investigation_8216concludes8217_obama8217s_birth_certificate_is_821/#comment-3059747420

  172. avatar
    bob December 19, 2016 at 6:22 pm #

    Fuzz T. Was:

    Do you have any counter evidence acceptable in court?

    The foundational question is: Do you?

    Zullo’s claims about what Hayes (or “Marco”) might have said are inadmissible hearsay. And are not “evidence.”

    Hayes is a handwriting expert; do you have any evidence of his expertise with digital images?

    Who is “Marco”? What’s his expertise in anything?

    Here’s a question for you: Why won’t Zullo release the reports from Hayes and this mysterious “Marco”?

  173. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 19, 2016 at 6:25 pm #

    Fuzz T. Was: Zullo now has a court qualified Question Document Examiner (Hayes) and a Multimedia Forensic Lab expert, (“Marco”) whose expertise, would allow them to testify in a court of law that the Obama’s LFBC is fake. Their testimony would be admitted in court as evidence. Of course, they would be subject to cross examination as to knowledge, training, experience and the reason for their conclusion.

    Umm no court qualified is on a case by case basis. Zullo has already said they’re not taking this to court. Hayes and the italians can’t give any actual testimony as they never actually examined the BC. None of it would hold up in court.

  174. avatar
    Scientist December 19, 2016 at 6:58 pm #

    Fuzz T. Was: Do you have any counter evidence acceptable in court?

    The actual paper birth certificate and the letter from the State of Hawaii verifying ts authenticity. The pdf is irrelevant next to those.

  175. avatar
    Joey December 19, 2016 at 8:29 pm #

    Fuzz T. Was:
    Well, the big day finally arrived.

    Zullo now has a court qualified Question Document Examiner (Hayes) and a Multimedia Forensic Lab expert, (“Marco”) whose expertise, would allow them to testify in a court of law that the Obama’s LFBC is fake. Their testimony would be admitted in court as evidence.Of course, they would be subject to cross examination as to knowledge, training, experience and the reason for their conclusion.

    Do you have any counter evidence acceptable in court?Do you have a document examiner to counter Hayes or a forensic data examiner to counter “Marco”?If you do, please identify them, what they have determined about the document, and provide their curriculum vitae.

    There can be no court case. There is no federal or state law that requires any candidate for president or vice president to use a birth certificate as a form of identifcation or to prove their eligibility.
    The president’s daughter, Sasha could have done a cartoon drawing of his birth certificate and that drawing could have been scanned to pdf and the digital image could have been placed on whitehouse.gov because no law has been violated. Therefore, no experts have ever been needed.
    But if you’d like the name of an expert who has examined the images of Barack Obama’s birth certificate, I offer Professor of Computer Science Ricardo de Queiroz, Ph.D. of the University of Brasilia in Brazil who holds some of the original patents on Mixed Raster Content (MRC), which is a method for compressing images that contain both binary text and continuous-tone components, using image segmentation methods to improve the level of compression and the quality of the rendered image.
    http://www.obamabirthbook.com/http:/www.obamabirthbook.com/2012/09/genuine-world-class-computer-expert-evaluates-obamas-birth-certificate-pdf/

    And since Arpaio/Zullo are offering two experts, I’ll also name a second, Jean-Claude Trembley who Fox News Channel enlisted in 2011 to examine the Obama pdf image:
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/29/expert-says-obamas-birth-certificate-legit.html

  176. avatar
    HistorianDude December 19, 2016 at 10:10 pm #

    Fuzz T. Was:
    Well, the big day finally arrived.

    And yet… the universe survives.

    Zullo now has a court qualified Question Document Examiner (Hayes) and a Multimedia Forensic Lab expert, (“Marco”) whose expertise, would allow them to testify in a court of law that the Obama’s LFBC is fake. Their testimony would be admitted in court as evidence.Of course, they would be subject to cross examination as to knowledge, training, experience and the reason for their conclusion.

    Alas… he has no court of law in which they can testify.

    Do you have any counter evidence acceptable in court?

    Yes.

    Do you have a document examiner to counter Hayes or a forensic data examiner to counter “Marco”?

    Yes.

    If you do, please identify them, what they have determined about the document, and provide their curriculum vitae.

    No.

    😛

  177. avatar
    RanTalbott December 20, 2016 at 3:15 am #

    Fuzz T. Was: whose expertise, would allow them to testify in a court of law that the Obama’s LFBC is fake. Their testimony would be admitted in court as evidence.

    Nope: neither of them has examined Obama’s LFBC., so they can’t testify about it.

  178. avatar
    Suranis December 20, 2016 at 3:57 am #

    And if the State of Hawaii had stamped that drawing as having accurate information with respect their records, that drawing would be a legal birth certificate. Even more so if they issued a statement to its accuracy.

    Joey: The president’s daughter, Sasha could have done a cartoon drawing of his birth certificate and that drawing could have been scanned to pdf and the digital image could have been placed on whitehouse.gov because no law has been violated. Therefore, no experts have ever been needed.

  179. avatar
    Suranis December 20, 2016 at 4:41 am #

    John, here is some top class forensic techniques for you

    Download Gimp. Its a free open source graphics package that I’ve used. its quite good.

    Load images of both certs into separate layers

    Set transparency of the layers to 50%, or leave one layer and have one layer over the other one, and the overlayer set to 50%

    Line up the images

    You will see clearly that none of the 9 points of forgery line up to the other certificate, as you will be able to see both images through one another. That is a non naked eye test, That is a proper test of whether the images match, which would be accepted by any court.

    Then figure out some other reason to cling onto your 8 year quest to find any evidence at all that your President (and he is still your President) is not REALLY your President. And we both know that you wont do the simple forensic test I’ve described, for that reason.

    john: To the drift of what Zullo is saying…you simply can’t tell by the naked eye. But using forensics methods, they have been able to determine that pieces of Ah’Nee BC are IDENTICAL to Obama’s BC indicating a a Cut and Paste Job.

  180. avatar
    gorefan December 20, 2016 at 10:33 am #

    There is a great contradiction in the Gillar video and thus in the Zullo evidence.

    In the five points of evidence the X in Obama’s box 7e is copied from the X in box 7e on the Ah’Nee certificate. Then in the same video they claim that the X in Obama’s box 7e was copied and pasted from box 6d on the Ah’Nee document.

    It can’t be both brought over from box 7e and copied and pasted from box 6d.

  181. avatar
    Joey December 20, 2016 at 8:34 pm #

    I guess Fuzz T, “wasn’t” after all.

  182. avatar
    gorefan December 21, 2016 at 2:20 am #

    Mike Zullo’s reading from Hayes report:

    “My examination revealed exact aligning and positioning of the word Honolulu in field 6a of the COLB, the word Oahu in fields 6b and 7d and the X in field 7g when superimposed on the Ah’Nee certificate. It is uncanny that all of these entries are exactly the same on both documents particularly the positioning of the X as it would be impossible for a typist to place that letter in the very same position, the exact match suggests they may have been lifted as a group from the Ah’Nee document and placed on the COLB or the Ah’Nee certificate was a template for the COLB. The exact alignment of all these entries as a group is proof that the Ah’Nee certificate was one source utilized in the creation of the COLB.”

    “Even more convincing is the exact match of 6d of the COLB with the same field in the Ah’Nee document. They match identically with regard to their positioning in the printed box, in addition the X is an exact match in its position in the printed box and the printed text above the X also matches identically with the Ah’Nee document further when the X in field 7e of the COLB is over the X in field 6d of the Ah’Nee certificate they also match identically with regard to their positioning in the box. Additionally the Xs are identical as to placement in the box and the printed text above the box are also identical on each document. It is impossible that all of these entries are exact in content, alignment and placement unless the entries on the COLB were borrowed from the Ah’Nee certificate or the Ah’Nee certificate was a template for the COLB.”

    Second reading from Hayes report

    “Signatures on the COLB at fields 18a, 19a and 21 of the COLB have a flat static quality. They lack the fluid appearance normally associated with original signatures that have been scanned. There is no evidence of ink characteristics’ which I would expect to see in the scan of a original signatures. Significantly the Stanley parentheses, Ann D portion of the Stanley Ann Dunham Obama signature is highly pixelated but the remained of the signature is not, it is reasonable that signature is not a true replica of a complete original signature but was assembled from different sources.”

  183. avatar
    Pete December 21, 2016 at 11:56 pm #

    gorefan:
    There is a great contradiction in the Gillar video and thus in the Zullo evidence.

    In the five points of evidence the X in Obama’s box 7e is copied from the X in box 7e on the Ah’Nee certificate.Then in the same video they claim that the X in Obama’s box 7e was copied and pasted from box 6d on the Ah’Nee document.

    It can’t be both brought over from box 7e and copied and pasted from box 6d.

    Yes, that’s correct.

    As I noted in the little graphic I did, any competent person, given a week (and I think I was being generous there) can come up with a consistent presentation that doesn’t contradict itself.

    These morons had five years to come up with their universe-sh*ttering reveal, and they couldn’t manage it.

  184. avatar
    Pete December 21, 2016 at 11:58 pm #

    gorefan: It is uncanny that all of these entries are exactly the same on both documents particularly the positioning of the X as it would be impossible for a typist to place that letter in the very same position…

    Apparently these geniuses never used a manual typewriter, and never heard of tab stops.

  185. avatar
    gorefan December 22, 2016 at 12:19 am #

    Pete: Apparently these geniuses never used a manual typewriter, and never heard of tab stops.

    If you use the Ah’Nee certificate as a overlay a lot of the text entries are aligned, they just have different entries. And in box 7c the entries – Honolulu, Hawaii are offset horizontally but not vertically.

    They apparently don’t realize that typewriters have fixed line spacing.

  186. avatar
    SmartA55 December 22, 2016 at 5:55 am #

    Since the Obama certificate was certified by the State of Hawaii to be an exact and accurate reflection of the actual birth data in their Vital Records, clearly Zullo and Arpaio proved that the Ah’Nee certificate was a forgery! Great work!

  187. avatar
    Reality Check December 22, 2016 at 9:43 am #

    But didn’t they have Paul Irey who had been a typist for 150 years?

    Pete: Apparently these geniuses never used a manual typewriter, and never heard of tab stops.

  188. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater December 22, 2016 at 10:52 am #

    So wait birthers Obama didn’t really use a dead girls certificate like they claimed?

  189. avatar
    Curious George December 22, 2016 at 11:12 am #

    SmartA55:
    Since the Obama certificate was certified by the State of Hawaii to be an exact and accurate reflection of the actual birth data in their Vital Records, clearly Zullo and Arpaio proved that the Ah’Nee certificate was a forgery! Great work!

    An absolutely outstanding observation. What would that make the Birther Princess?

  190. avatar
    bob December 22, 2016 at 11:50 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater:
    So wait birthers Obama didn’t really use a dead girls certificate like they claimed?

    Zullo claims that the Ah’Nee certificate was only one source document; they are totally open to multiple certificates being source documents.

    Because every conspiracy must be both vast and baroque.

  191. avatar
    SmartA55 December 24, 2016 at 5:13 am #

    Still a little confused about what the exact conspiracy theory is right now.

    Zullo and Arpaio are not disputing the fact that according to the State of Hawaii there is a true and exact recording of Obama’s birth in their Vital Records (they can’t dispute that simply because they have not even seen the records). The State of Hawaii has also stated that the (copy of) the Long Form Birth Certificate they issued is a true and exact refection of their Vital Record of Obama’s birth.

    They also did not say anything anymore about the original ‘short’ birth certificate (which is issued to every other person born in Hawaii and excepted by every court in the world as proof of birth in Hawaii) not being genuine for any reason.

    They only claim the the copy of the LFBC RELEASED BY OBAMA is a forgery (so that one must different from the one in Hawaii’s Vital Records).

    But why would that need to be forged if the records of the State of Hawaii are still accurate? No evidence was presented against that.

    So what is the need for a conspiracy about the copy of the LFBC released by Obama if you can’t proof that the Vital Records of Hawaii are not correct??

    Except perhaps to thrown some red meat to the big crowd of people who shelled out thousands of dollars to fund your 5 year ‘investigation’. Got to show them some result, or otherwise they might get upset and start to think you were making the whole thing up just to fund your own lifestyle choices, to cover up your own indiscretions or to childishly fight back dirty against others who where investigating you for legitimate reasons….
    Would be nice if they would also release a full and detailed account of all the funds they took in and how they spend them. Bet we can wait on that as long as they releasing the full reports from their ‘forensic experts’..

    Man, I think I just started my own conspiracy theory….

  192. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 24, 2016 at 7:52 am #

    Birthers have never had a consistent alternative narrative. It’s basically a collection of claimed anomalies.

    The logical mind, I think, would conclude that Zullo is implying that the State of Hawaii is complicit in the forgery. I say that because Zullo made a point of saying that the Ah’nee certificate is authentic, and that it has been locked up for years. That means that if the putative Obama forger must have gotten the Ah’nee certificate from the State of Hawaii, and presumably a bunch of other certificates to make the Obama document, since the Ah’nee certificate represents just a few letters.

    SmartA55: Still a little confused about what the exact conspiracy theory is right now.

  193. avatar
    bob December 24, 2016 at 9:47 am #

    Zullo’s hypothesis essentially is that someone registered Obama’s foreign birth; the birth record was then amended to contain the information that Hawaii has verified; and the PDF was created so it would appear that the long form contains the amended information (that is not actually present in the original).

  194. avatar
    SmartA55 December 25, 2016 at 4:08 am #

    bob:
    Zullo’s hypothesis essentially is that someone registered Obama’s foreign birth; the birth record was then amended to contain the information that Hawaii has verified; and the PDF was created so it would appear that the long form contains the amended information (that is not actually present in the original).

    Of course it makes no sense at all why this would have happened back in those days. Never mind that there is not a shred of evidence to support this. As long as they can’t proof the Vital Records of the State of Hawaii are wrong, they don’t have a case.

  195. avatar
    Pete December 25, 2016 at 8:44 am #

    SmartA55: Still a little confused about what the exact conspiracy theory is right now.

    Don’t expect a theory that makes any d*mn sense whatsoever.

    There isn’t one. It’s just a claim for the simpleminded and Obama haters that he wasn’t born in Hawaii, “backed” by the slimmest bit of extremely implausible nonsense.

    Really, that’s it. You have grifters who raised money off of gullible fools with open wallets, who desperately wanted to believe Obama was ineligible to be President. Why? Because they didn’t like him.

    The real logic goes like this:

    “I personally hate Barack Obama.”

    “Therefore, he is ineligible to be President.”

  196. avatar
    dunstvangeet December 25, 2016 at 11:52 am #

    SmartA55: Would be nice if they would also release a full and detailed account of all the funds they took in and how they spend them. Bet we can wait on that as long as they releasing the full reports from their ‘forensic experts’..

    They will never release the actual report from the experts. Reed Hayes originally had a report back in 2012 (I believe). Zullo has never released it, claiming that it was his private information. It has never (and will never) be released, because releasing it would put it to scrutiny.

  197. avatar
    bob December 25, 2016 at 12:46 pm #

    Which is especially ironic considering birthers demand that Obama release his kindergarten records.

  198. avatar
    RanTalbott December 26, 2016 at 12:16 am #

    James Greenlee: That this element of the conspiracy theory didn’t die a rapid death for everyone still amazes me.

    Personally, I blame Microsoft 😉 They started calling files “documents”, and muddied the meaning of the word.

    Most birthers just don’t get it when I explain that they’ve been wasting their time “analyzing” a digital picture of a document, not an actual document.

  199. avatar
    H. Keith December 26, 2016 at 6:23 am #

    SmartA55:
    Since the Obama certificate was certified by the State of Hawaii to be an exact and accurate reflection of the actual birth data in their Vital Records, clearly Zullo and Arpaio proved that the Ah’Nee certificate was a forgery! Great work!

    The key word here is, of course, DATA. That is what is important on the document and that is what is certified.

  200. avatar
    SmartA55 December 26, 2016 at 3:09 pm #

    These birther guys are missing out on the real conspiracy. Don’t they realize that this whole birth certificate shenanigans could be nothing but a FALSE FLAG operation organized by Obama himself?
    While this is keeping the right wing lunatic fanatics busy he’s been secretly plotting to take away their freedoms and their guns!

  201. avatar
    Northland10 December 26, 2016 at 4:42 pm #

    dunstvangeet: They will never release the actual report from the experts.Reed Hayes originally had a report back in 2012 (I believe).Zullo has never released it, claiming that it was his private information.It has never (and will never) be released, because releasing it would put it to scrutiny.

    Zullo would end all the questions if he just release the report. 😉

  202. avatar
    RanTalbott December 27, 2016 at 4:14 pm #

    Northland10: Zullo would end all the questions if he just release the report.

    Well, he already released the “short form” as part of the Alabama daffydavit. If he ever has another press conference, someone should ask why it’s taking him years to release the long form 😉

    But maybe someone should warn Hayes against flying Makani Kai Air for now…