Main Menu

Inclined dates

Mike Zullo made a big deal about how unlikely it is that two Hawaiian birth certificates should be date stamped at the same angle. Is it really unlikely? I looked at some Hawaiian certificates, and there were differing angles, but for the certificates signed by Verna K. Lee there was a certain similarity. The angle is not a random event.

The first Lee certificate is from June of 1961, the one that had “Colored” crossed out and “Negro” substituted.

image

Next is a 1959 certificate from the Territory of Hawaii, shown by WND:

image

Here’s President Obama’s certificate:

image

Here’s the Coats certificate:

image

This one was from March of 1961:

image

Ah’nee:

image

Is there a pattern here?

53 Responses to Inclined dates

  1. avatar
    trader jack January 14, 2017 at 2:55 am #

    Sure , three of them show a dash on the date, last one has same fonts with no tilt in the year date

    Obama’s year date is parallel to line above and month and day tilt upwards

    I am ignoring the vertical displacement on the month and day, and the difference in sizes of the years.

    The only thing I can see is that either the day and month stamps were stretched installing the carrier, but the year stamps should show no deflection as they are wider and should align more closely with the metal frame of the hand stamp, if , in fact, they are from a normal hand stamp dating tool

    But, it is unclear to me as to whether they were all from the same hand stamp in the same hospital, used by the same clerk. it is fairly routine to have a number of hand stamps in a busy office.

    The draft card is much more significant as to truthfulness of the date stamp used on it

  2. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 14, 2017 at 7:05 am #

    The date stamps aren’t applied in the hospital, but rather by the Department of Health. I know they are likely from the same clerk because the same clerk signed them all.

    trader jack: But, it is unclear to me as to whether they were all from the same hand stamp in the same hospital, used by the same clerk. it is fairly routine to have a number of hand stamps in a busy office.

  3. avatar
    Reality Check January 14, 2017 at 8:01 am #

    trader jack: Sure , three of them show a dash on the date, last one has same fonts with no tilt in the year date

    The dash was used in place of a leading “0”. Leading zeros didn’t become common until computers were used.

    trader jack: The draft card is much more significant as to truthfulness of the date stamp used on it

    Just why is this significant? The “19” either wore out, was taken out of the stamp, or was so faint it didn’t survive the process of microfilming and a black and white scan.

  4. avatar
    Reality Check January 14, 2017 at 8:06 am #

    The pattern is that the date stamps on the left in box 20 have a positive slope.

  5. avatar
    scott e January 14, 2017 at 9:45 am #

    other half ? hey, i’ve never seen you so prolific. this will go on after the inauguration.
    maybe a court case about getting into that vault ?

  6. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 14, 2017 at 10:01 am #

    If President Obama’s presidential library is built and contains his birth certificate, then I will go take a selfie and publish it.

    scott e: maybe a court case about getting into that vault ?

  7. avatar
    bob January 14, 2017 at 11:32 am #

    scott e:
    maybe a court case about getting into that vault ?

    Maybe someday you’ll realize that no one (but a few birthers) believe this fantasy?

  8. avatar
    gorefan January 14, 2017 at 11:48 am #

    bob: Maybe someday you’ll realize that no one (but a few birthers) believe this fantasy?

    It’s like that old Texas saying,

    “…fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.”

  9. avatar
    bob January 14, 2017 at 12:24 pm #

    Reality Check: The “19” either wore out, was taken out of the stamp, or was so faint it didn’t survive the process of microfilming and a black and white scan.

    The birther obsession with the Selective Service registration is especially hilarious because President Obama’s registration was verified in 2008 — before he assumed the presidency. Birthers imagine an ridiculously complex conspiracy because they refuse to believe a straightforward fact (that has nothing to do with eligibility).

  10. avatar
    gorefan January 14, 2017 at 1:14 pm #

    bob: Birthers imagine an ridiculously complex conspiracy

    Like the idea the someone changed all the microfilm copies of the Honolulu newspapers birth announcements.

    Zullo mentioned the fact that to date no one has produced an actual paper copy of those August, 1961 newspapers. As if that is somehow suspicious. F..king moron.

  11. avatar
    Rickey January 14, 2017 at 1:16 pm #

    scott e:
    .
    maybe a court case about getting into that vault ?

    A court case about what? Who would have standing? After Friday, what controversy would exist that a court could remedy?

    As for going on after the inauguration, if you were a baseball player and went 0 for 226 at the plate you’d be looking for a new line of work.

  12. avatar
    trader jack January 14, 2017 at 4:05 pm #

    bob: The birther obsession with the Selective Service registration is especially hilarious because President Obama’s registration was verified in 2008 — before he assumed the presidency. Birthers imagine an ridiculously complex conspiracy because they refuse to believe a straightforward

    Oh, my goodness, the fact that a document was filed with the government does not guarantee that the document is true , does it?

    And , when the clerk looks at the card and says it has been filed does she inspect it for completeness? And does she look at it to see if was signed after it was filed?

    A verification simply indicates that a document has been filed and is on the records.

  13. avatar
    trader jack January 14, 2017 at 4:07 pm #

    gorefan: Like the idea the someone changed all the microfilm copies of the Honolulu newspapers birth announcements.

    Zullo mentioned the fact that to date no one has produced an actual paper copy of those August, 1961 newspapers.As if that is somehow suspicious. F..king moron.

    a clipping from a newspaper can not be used to verify a fact. You need the complete newspaper to verify the fact that it actually came from a particular newspaper at a particular time

  14. avatar
    trader jack January 14, 2017 at 4:09 pm #

    Rickey: A court case about what? Who would have standing? After Friday, what controversy would exist that a court could remedy?

    As for going on after the inauguration, if you were a baseball player and went 0 for 226 at the plate you’d be looking for a new line of work.

    And if Edison followed your beliefs we would be writing with quill pens. LOL

  15. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 14, 2017 at 4:11 pm #

    The complete microfilm reels of the Hawaii newspapers are available at the Hawaii State Library.

    I am going to enforce the ban on your commenting for the balance of this blog’s publication

    Bye.

    trader jack: a clipping from a newspaper can not be used to verify a fact. You need the complete newspaper to verify the fact that it actually came from a particular newspaper at a particular time

  16. avatar
    gorefan January 14, 2017 at 4:25 pm #

    Also at the Library of Congress and the California State Library in Sacramento

  17. avatar
    bob January 14, 2017 at 4:26 pm #

    trader jack:
    A verification simply indicates that a document has been filed and is on the records.

    I don’t know how they do it in your country, but in the United States that is sufficient evidence.

    Oh, my goodness, the fact that a document was filed with the government does not guarantee that the document is true , does it?

    traderjack’s innuendo cannot explain how an allegedly false document was inserted into Selective Service’s records by no later than 2008. (And, thankfully, he will no longer be able tell more lies here.)

    And if Edison followed your beliefs we would be writing with quill pens.

    Confusing scientific application of data gleaned from failures with the mindless repetition of the same failure is among your many, many faults.

    As Doc has an eye toward posterity, I hope traderjack serves as a perfect example of a birther: an unrepentant liar and peddler of innuendo who was consistently wrong on both the facts and the law, who continued to insist on beliefs after they were repeatedly proven wrong, and who championed a neverwas cause long past its dim relevance.

  18. avatar
    Rickey January 14, 2017 at 5:36 pm #

    trader jack: And if Edison followed your beliefs we would be writing with quill pens. LOL

    I nominate that comment as the non-sequitur of the year.

  19. avatar
    Rickey January 14, 2017 at 5:38 pm #

    bob:

    As Doc has an eye toward posterity, I hope traderjack serves as a perfect example of a birther: an unrepentant liar and peddler of innuendo who was consistently wrong on both the facts and the law, who continued to insist on beliefs after they were repeatedly proven wrong, and who championed a never was cause long past its dim relevance.

    Hear, hear.

  20. avatar
    Whatever4 January 14, 2017 at 5:59 pm #

    gorefan:
    Also at the Library of Congress and the California State Library in Sacramento

    And the Boston Public Library, where I actually went and looked the announcements up.

  21. avatar
    Reality Check January 14, 2017 at 6:02 pm #

    Also at the California state library I believe.

    Whatever4: And the Boston Public Library, where I actually went and looked the announcements up.

  22. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 14, 2017 at 7:11 pm #

    I think Jack is a much better example of a troll. I haven’t a clue as to whether he is a birther.

    bob: I hope traderjack serves as a perfect example of a birther: an unrepentant liar and peddler of innuendo who was consistently wrong on both the facts and the law,

  23. avatar
    bob January 14, 2017 at 7:18 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I haven’t a clue as to whether he is a birther.

    traderjack expressed great concern about the accuracy of the government records for exactly one person, i.e., Obama; make him a birther in my book.

    In addition to being a troll.

  24. avatar
    scott e January 14, 2017 at 7:57 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    If President Obama’s presidential library is built and contains his birth certificate, then I will go take a selfie and publish it.

    but can you score for me bill ayer’s autograph ?

  25. avatar
    Pete January 14, 2017 at 11:20 pm #

    I am going to enforce the ban on your commenting for the balance of this blog’s publication

    Bye.

    Thank you.

    I greatly appreciate the commitment you’ve shown throughout the duration of this blog to allowing anyone, even the worst of birthers, to speak.

    That said, I’m very glad to see jack go, and see us hopefully have a fairly peaceful week of wrapping this show up without the likes of him polluting the final waters.

  26. avatar
    Joey January 15, 2017 at 1:53 am #

    trader jack: a clipping from a newspaper can not be used to verify a fact.You need the complete newspaper to verify the fact that it actually came from a particular newspaper at a particular time

    Nobody said anything about a clipping. The complete newspaers are available in multiple libraries around the U.S.
    Trader Jack is too stupid to understand that just because the specific “Health Bureau Statistics” article that shows Obama’s birth notice was scanned and placed on some web sites doesn’t mean that the entire newspaper isn’t available.

  27. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG January 15, 2017 at 5:10 am #

    Pete: That said, I’m very glad to see jack go, and see us hopefully have a fairly peaceful week of wrapping this show up without the likes of him polluting the final waters.

    It finally happened? Oh nice!

  28. avatar
    Northland10 January 15, 2017 at 7:38 am #

    Is she left-handed? It would look like she holds the stamp differently than whoever was stamping the box on on the other side.

  29. avatar
    Northland10 January 15, 2017 at 8:02 am #

    Northland10:
    Is she left-handed?It would look like she holds the stamp differently than whoever was stamping the box on on the other side.

    I take it back. After consideration, I am leaning toward her having the paper at a slight angle (right side lower than the left). This would cause her signature to have less slant but a stamp to have the consistent angle.

    The paper is wider than the certificate we see so that might impact how different clerks held the paper. That might also be why the stamp on the right side is consistently at an angle (even on other certificates). With the box on the far-right of a wide piece paper, only the obsessive/compulsives like me would be trying to make the stamp perfectly level on the page.

  30. avatar
    scott e January 15, 2017 at 10:19 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    The complete microfilm reels of the Hawaii newspapers are available at the Hawaii State Library.

    I am going to enforce the ban on your commenting for the balance of this blog’s publication

    Bye.

    me too, might as well make it an even dozen.
    we birthers will try to go on without you. cheers.

  31. avatar
    JD Reed January 15, 2017 at 11:34 am #

    Rickey: A court case about what? Who would have standing? After Friday, what controversy would exist that a court could remedy?

    As for going on after the inauguration, if you were a baseball player and went 0 for 226 at the plate you’d be looking for a new line of work.

    Long before 0-for-226.

  32. avatar
    gorefan January 15, 2017 at 12:22 pm #

    Northland10: I take it back.After consideration, I am leaning toward her having the paper at a slight angle (right side lower than the left).This would cause her signature to have less slant but a stamp to have the consistent angle.

    The paper is wider than the certificate we see so that might impact how different clerks held the paper.That might also be why the stamp on the right side is consistently at an angle (even on other certificates).With the box on the far-right of a wide piece paper, only the obsessive/compulsives like me would be trying to make the stamp perfectly level on the page.

    I think it has to do with the arc her hand makes as she stamps box 20 and then box 22.

  33. avatar
    Northland10 January 15, 2017 at 2:35 pm #

    gorefan: I think it has to do with the arc her hand makes as she stamps box 20 and then box 22.

    They may be. I was not sure who stamped the right box (or I forgot). I did notice the right hand box tended to have an angle no matter who signed the certificate.

  34. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 15, 2017 at 3:53 pm #

    The truth is out there.

    scott e: we birthers will try to go on without you. cheers.

  35. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG January 15, 2017 at 7:05 pm #

    scott e: me too, might as well make it an even dozen.
    we birthers will try to go on without you. cheers.

    Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
    On second though, let it.

  36. avatar
    Rickey January 15, 2017 at 7:35 pm #

    scott e:
    we birthers will try to go on without you.

    Go on to where? To the National Dead Horse Beating tournament?

  37. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) January 16, 2017 at 4:34 am #

    gorefan: Zullo mentioned the fact that to date no one has produced an actual paper copy of those August, 1961 newspapers. As if that is somehow suspicious.

    Especially since this combines two fallacies:
    1. Shift of burden of proof (Zullo would have to come up with an actual paper copy not containing the Obama birth announcement).
    2. “Absence of evidence is evidence of absence” fallacy.

  38. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) January 16, 2017 at 4:36 am #

    Northland10: This would cause her signature to have less slant but a stamp to have the consistent angle.

    Also don’t forget that if the angles were different, birthers would also take this as “proof of forgery” by claiming a clerk would always stamp the same way. Good old Catch-22.

  39. avatar
    Reality Check January 16, 2017 at 8:54 am #

    Go on doing what? Utter failure?

    scott e: we birthers will try to go on without you. cheers.

  40. avatar
    scott e January 16, 2017 at 9:38 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    The truth is out there.

    not yet kevin, not completely.

  41. avatar
    bob January 16, 2017 at 1:54 pm #

    In related news, Zullo again whines to Rondeau that the only attention he is getting is negative.

  42. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG January 16, 2017 at 2:24 pm #

    Lol! What a little putz. I wonder how long its gonna be before the birther bucks stop rolling in. Even the most thickheaded idiot’s patience is surely finite. What shall become of that mustachioed circus clown then?
    I called him a circus clown, because like circus clowns, he has a face that screams “Punch me as hard as you humanly can!”

  43. avatar
    roadburner January 16, 2017 at 3:14 pm #

    bob:
    In related news, Zullo again whines to Rondeau that the only attention he is getting is negative.

    i notice in that article that there is yet another attempt to say zullo was a detective

    rather amusing really

  44. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG January 16, 2017 at 3:38 pm #

    I think we should start an investigation. Has anyone ever seen Zullo’s police academy certificate?

  45. avatar
    Rickey January 16, 2017 at 4:25 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:
    I think we should start an investigation. Has anyone ever seen Zullo’s police academy certificate?

    In 2014 I filed a Freedom of Information request with the Demarest, N.J. police department. They confirmed that he was a police officer there but they no longer had his records.

    Demarest is a bucolic suburb with very little crime. Zullo may have ticketed a few speeders and caught some underage drinkers while he was there, but he was no detective. The Demarest Police Department currently consists of a chief, three sergeants, and nine patrolmen. No detectives.

    Unfortunately, the man who was the police chief during Zullo’s time there died in 2012.

  46. avatar
    H. Keith January 16, 2017 at 5:40 pm #

    Northland10:
    Is she left-handed?It would look like she holds the stamp differently than whoever was stamping the box on on the other side.

    The thought occured to me that they may have had an electric stamper where you just shoved the page into a slot and the stamp got applied. There would have been guides to ensue the page was positioned correctly but there would have been minor differences each time never the less.

    Ever used a three hole punch? Does each batch of pages come out perfectly aligned? But do all the pages actually fit the binder ‘close enough’?

  47. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 16, 2017 at 6:29 pm #

    My theory is that she is right-handed, but I bet Reed Hayes could tell us from the signature.

    Northland10: Is she left-handed? It would look like she holds the stamp differently than whoever was stamping the box on on the other side.

  48. avatar
    gorefan January 16, 2017 at 7:02 pm #

    bob:
    In related news

    From the P&E article:

    “However, the White House never released a “piece of paper.” The only item proffered was a PDF image on its website, while papers distributed to reporters afterward were revealed to be simply reproductions of a jpeg image photographed by the Associated Press.”

    WTF does that mean?

    The AP photographed a jpeg image?

    They still don’t understand that the whole concept of compression of images before uploading to the internet.

  49. avatar
    Reality Check January 16, 2017 at 7:04 pm #

    I sent an email to Rondeau about this. She is hopelessly confused.

    Email to Sharon Rondeau

    gorefan: From the P&E article:

  50. avatar
    Notorial Dissent January 16, 2017 at 8:05 pm #

    A point, from the standpoint of experience. If you have a pile of forms you are processing, and there is no point to do just one form, you wait until you have a whole lot of them and then do them to get them all done at the same time. Specifically you probably collect all the forms that come in in one days mail and stamp them to show when they arrived, and then maybe sign them then or hold them til later. You reach a point where you do some things left handed and some things right handed. As in date stamping left handed and signing right handed, assuming you are right handed, as most people are. FWIW it really looks like the date stamps are of the manual held in your hand type, remember using all too many of them over the years, and how they would come out looking.

    Ah come on RC, you really don’t can’t possibly expect Rharon to let little things like facts and reality to get in the way of her prejudices and fantasies, now can you??

  51. avatar
    Northland10 January 17, 2017 at 7:58 am #

    H. Keith: Ever used a three hole punch? Does each batch of pages come out perfectly aligned? But do all the pages actually fit the binder ‘close enough’?

    Does the punch make it through all pages, in all three holes?

    Three-hole punches are my nemesis.

  52. avatar
    Notorial Dissent January 17, 2017 at 8:07 pm #

    My personal hate was for the incrementing serial number stampes, never had one that worked well or consistently.

  53. avatar
    H. Keith January 18, 2017 at 6:52 pm #

    Northland10: Does the punch make it through all pages,

    Not if you try to cram too many pages in at once. If you work with reasonable size batches then the holes go through, but each batch is ever so slightly out of alignment with the others,. But not so bad that they don’t fit in the binder which is the point.