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LTC Lakin to plead “not guilty”

You may recall that LTC Terry Lakin, the Army doctor that didn’t sh0w up to deploy to Afghanistan with his unit in order to force the issue of Barack Obama’s presidential eligibility, did not enter a plea at his earlier military court appearances. Now, according to his attorney, Neil Puckett in a talk radio interview this morning (December 6), that plea will be “not guilty.”

Here’s the Peter Boyles show clip from radio station KHOW, which I find well worth listening to. The interview starts about 3 minutes into the clip.

One thing interviewer Boyles said that was untrue was the suggestion that Barack Obama releasing a birth certificate could save Terry Lakin from prison. I don’t know under what crazy view of the law that is supposed to be possible. The birth certificate may be the Holy Grail for the birthers, but it is not Dr. Who’s TARDIS, able to travel through time and erase the past.

I suspect we will be seeing the phrase “political prisoner” more and more often. I wouldn’t be comfortable with that phrase given its connotations, but somehow “prisoner of conscience” is perhaps not too far off.

The Lakin court martial begins December 14.

194 Responses to LTC Lakin to plead “not guilty”

  1. avatar
    ImaObot December 6, 2010 at 8:31 pm #

    “I don’t know under what crazy view of the law that is supposed to be possible. The birth certificate may be the Holy Grail for the birthers, but it is not Dr. Who’s TARDIS, able to travel through time and erase the past.”

    – Doc

    A certified copy of BO’s COLB from the HDoH will have the word “Amended” printed on it. Which brings about the question of why did Obama forge a document, post it on FTS and inform the public he has posted his COLB on the website.

    Thus, a controversy worthy of a full investigation is begun. What’s this? Your adoption was annulled? How terrible. Tell us all about it.

    You renounced your what?

  2. avatar
    ron December 6, 2010 at 8:44 pm #

    This is so rediculous, once again another grifter asking for the public to help support Lakin and his family and most likely put some money in this lawyers pocket, I am ashamed this lawyer was a Marine, If this lawyer was asked when he was in the service as a Captain or even a Lt that if some junior Marine refused to carry out any orders from him unless he showed him his birth certificate long form,(mind you) or College transcipts and or commisioning papers, that he would just show them to him, I am telling you, he is not being truthful, that Marine would be written up for direlection of duty, refusing orders and disrespect so fast that his head would spin. You would have to do that in order to keep with good order and discipline . Can this guy really support this crap especially in war time. Every person that loses heart in battle (and it happens) would have a card to play, that would waste time and possibly cost lives and battles. I have no problem with Lakin having a lawyer and this guy defending him, but what he said in that interview is seditious.

    In law, sedition is overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that is deemed by the legal authority to tend toward insurrection against the established order. Sedition often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent (or resistance) to lawful authority. Sedition may include any commotion, though not aimed at direct and open violence against the laws. Seditious words in writing are seditious libel. A seditionist is one who engages in or promotes the interests of sedition.(WIKIPEDIA RETRIVED 12/06/2010)

    They are lucky FDR is not in the white house.

  3. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP December 6, 2010 at 9:12 pm #

    Is Puckett buying into Lakin’s birther crap? He seems like a reasonable person and a good attorney who would be telling Lakin to drop it already.

  4. avatar
    aarrgghh December 6, 2010 at 9:57 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: Is Puckett buying into Lakin’s birther crap? He seems like a reasonable person and a good attorney who would be telling Lakin to drop it already.

    puckett works for lakin, not the other way around …

  5. avatar
    Greg December 6, 2010 at 10:42 pm #

    It’s not really at odds to say that conviction is a near-certainty and still plead not guilty. First, the client controls the plea – an attorney cannot plead in the stead of his client. Second, the defendant is allowed to put the prosecution’s case to the test – “not guilty” is not the same as “innocent.” CAAFlog has pointed out, for example, a technical defense to the missing movement specification (“charge” in civilian courts). As for hitting up the birthers for money, I encourage Lakin and Puckett to do this as much as possible. If Lakin is dismissed from the military, that will mean a loss of pension worth significantly more than the birthers have so far ponied up on paypal. If they’re going to cost Lakin two million dollars, they should have the decency to empty their wallets into his kids’ mouths.

  6. avatar
    ron December 6, 2010 at 11:14 pm #

    Does anyone know where this 2 millions dollars spent actually comes from, everyone keeps repeating that but never cites a source. the orator of the show continued on after the lawyer left repeating the same old birther nonsense. Even a caller called that he supported with saying how everyone else has to provide docs to verify birth but the president has refused. It just never ends. For a group that is demanding irefutable proof on the presidents place of birth , they sure seem to easily accept highly questional proof quite easily . on the other side.

  7. avatar
    gorefan December 6, 2010 at 11:21 pm #

    aarrgghh: puckett works for lakin, not the other way around …

    Have you ever heard a defense lawyer say his client is guilty or didn’t have good reasons to do what he did?

  8. avatar
    Majority Will December 6, 2010 at 11:30 pm #

    ron: Does anyone know where this 2 millions dollars spent actually comes from, everyone keeps repeating that but never cites a source. theorator of theshow continued on after the lawyer left repeating the same old birther nonsense.Even a caller called that he supported with saying how everyone else has to provide docs to verify birth but the president has refused. It just never ends. For a group that is demanding irefutable proof on the presidents place of birth , they sure seem to easily accepthighly questional proof quite easily . on the other side.

    ron:
    The following is a good read on the subject.
    http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/01/whats-obamas-birther-legal-bill

  9. avatar
    Dwight Sullivan December 6, 2010 at 11:59 pm #

    I think the $2 million to which Greg referred was the expected value of LTC Lakin’s pension, which he’ll lose if he’s convicted and sentenced to a dismissal. (Even if not, the Army will probably administratively separate him before he reaches 20 years of service and he’ll lose it anyway.)

  10. avatar
    Majority Will December 7, 2010 at 12:08 am #

    Dwight Sullivan: I think the $2 million to which Greg referred was the expected value of LTC Lakin’s pension, which he’ll lose if he’s convicted and sentenced to a dismissal.(Even if not, the Army will probably administratively separate him before he reaches 20 years of service and he’ll lose it anyway.)

    Yes, but did Boyles refer to the millions that Obama has allegedly spent defending against birther lawsuits?

    AFAIK, that was a WND fabrication.

  11. avatar
    gorefan December 7, 2010 at 12:49 am #

    What I don’t understand is the comment that the President hasn’t produced his BC when in fact he has. It’s just that LtC Lakin just doesn’t accept that BC. Which I find funny, because LtC Lakin put his own BC online and it has no signatures, only typed names (for the doctor, registrar and even his mother). So someone whose own BC is outside the norm, is questioning someone else’s BC. Strange.

    http://www.safeguardourconstitution.com/images/stories/documents/apf02-tlakincertificateoflivebirth.pdf

  12. avatar
    aarrgghh December 7, 2010 at 1:59 am #

    gorefan:
    Have you ever heard a defense lawyer say his client is guilty or didn’t have good reasons to do what he did?

    not specifically, but outside of the courtroom, lawyers, like everyone else, are free to say almost anything.

  13. avatar
    dunstvangeet December 7, 2010 at 3:52 am #

    A Military Pension is worth 50% of your final salary (plus COLAs) if you retire at 20 years. If you quit at 19 years, you get nothing.

    But anyways, in the Military (from what I’ve heard), if you get past 12 years, you’re basically guarenteed to get your 20.

    An O-5 (Lt. Colonel) with 18 would get $8675 a month in base pay, or about $104,100 a year. That would translate to roughly $52,050 a year for every year left in his life.

    So, Terry Lakin is 45 years old (born in 1965). If he was to retire at 20 years, that would be 48 years old. The average lifespan for a male is 75.6 years old. So, that’s 28.6 years, on average, that he is expected to live.

    So, take that, and not including COLAs, that would be worth $1,488,630. If you factor in COLAs, that would probably creep upto somewhere around $2 million.

  14. avatar
    misha December 7, 2010 at 4:03 am #

    gorefan: Lakin put his own BC online

    Is Lakin a citizen, or undocumented worker? See for yourself:

    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/09/is-lakin-citizen.html
    and
    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/08/lakin-undocumented-worker_26.html

  15. avatar
    mikeyes December 7, 2010 at 6:29 am #

    The two million dollars was an estimate assuming he lived to be 80.

    There are other less well known benefits including travel and the ability to use military facilities that add value to a military pension that he will lose.

  16. avatar
    James M December 7, 2010 at 9:50 am #

    mikeyes:

    The two million dollars was an estimate assuming he lived to be 80.

    A civilian career as a surgeon, however brief, would dwarf that . I’m sure he will get more from a book deal or something.

  17. avatar
    Greg December 7, 2010 at 10:04 am #

    James M: A civilian career as a surgeon

    While he’s a “flight surgeon,” he’s not a surgeon. He’s board certified in family medicine and occupational medicine. He has done a residency in family medicine and an internship in internal medicine.

  18. avatar
    ellid December 7, 2010 at 10:05 am #

    mikeyes: The two million dollars was an estimate assuming he lived to be 80.There are other less well known benefits including travel and the ability to use military facilities that add value to a military pension that he will lose.

    Not to mention getting Champus or Tricare for himself and his dependents.

  19. avatar
    Lupin December 7, 2010 at 11:36 am #

    I’m not sure I’d agree with the term “prisoner of conscience” either, since it implies a moral principle, and I fail to see what Lakin’s is beyond “I question my commander’s legitimacy” which has nothing to do with morality and may arguably deemed to be racist-based, since Lakin, AFAIK, never questioned his previous commanders’ legitimacy.

    I have just finished writing an article on the life and works of Captain Driant, a French ultra-right wing military man, writer, politician, and war hero, who died before Verdun, and shared many beliefs in common with today’s “neo-conservatives”.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89mile_Driant

    Driant would have despised Lakin, and would have him shot promptly and summarily as indeed many soldiers with far more justifiable excuses for refusing orders were summarily shot.

    It is IMHO a testimony to the blinding anti-Obama bigotry that such a pathetic little man could be regarded with anything but contempt.

  20. avatar
    Gregory December 7, 2010 at 12:56 pm #

    Lakin will not be a “prisoner of conscience” but a “prisoner of conscious delusion.”

  21. avatar
    Majority Will December 7, 2010 at 1:02 pm #

    James M: A civilian career as a surgeon, however brief, would dwarf that . I’m sure he will get more from a book deal or something.

    Or a regular on Fox News.

  22. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett December 7, 2010 at 1:47 pm #

    ganked and thrown into new blog post — thanks, Doc.

    As for questions about the lawyer’s fidelity, come on, folks. His job is to get his client as far off the hook as he can. If he’s got a trick up the sleeve that requires a not guilty plea, we should reserve judgment until the court martial, when we can see it in action.

    Me, I hope part of the defense is explaining exactly how “Otis” Jensen got Lakin in his hip pocket.

  23. avatar
    goodgravy December 7, 2010 at 2:19 pm #

    Brezinski has a great interview in Der Spiegel I hight recommend….like this quote about conservative(i call them regressives)

    —SPIEGEL: As National Security Advisor to President Jimmy Carter, you tried to prepare Americans for a more multipolar world — one with a stronger China and a weaker US. Americans did not like that idea and Carter was voted out of office after one term.

    Brzezinski: That concept is now very much a reality when you look at the rise of countries like China and India.

    SPIEGEL: And the American decline. Are Americans aware of that trend or does the fate of Carter await President Barak Obama should he openly address the issue?

    Brzezinski: I am very worried that most Americans are close to total ignorance about the world. They are ignorant. That is an unhealthy condition in a country in which foreign policy has to be endorsed by the people if it is to be pursued. And it makes it much more difficult for any president to pursue an intelligent policy that does justice to the complexity of the world.

    SPIEGEL: Yet the American right is still convinced of American exceptionalism.

    Brzezinski: That is a reaction to the inability of people to understand global complexity or important issues like American energy dependency. Therefore, they search for simplistic sources of comfort and clarity. And the people that they are now selecting to be, so to speak, the spokespersons of their anxieties are, in most cases, stunningly ignorant.===

  24. avatar
    Black Lion December 7, 2010 at 2:28 pm #

    From GW…

    http://gretawire.forums.foxnews.com/topic/retired-general-paul-vallely-holder-and-obama-should-be-locked-up-for-treason

    http://work949.wordpress.com/2010/12/07/retired-general-paul-vallely-holder-and-obama-should-be-locked-up-for-treason/

    This morning Denver radio talk-show host Peter Boyles featured retired General Paul Vallely, United States Army. Vallely candidly spoke his thoughts on jihad, our open border problem, the Court Martial of Lt. Colonel Terry Lakin and the still-unresolved issue of Barack Obama’s Constitutional eligibility to hold office.

    This is the link to Boyles’ show. Click on the 7:00 link to hear Vallely’s interview. I’ve provided a partial transcription of some of Vallely’s more noteworthy comments, omitting the “ah” and “umm” utterances from his presentation.

    http://www.khow.com/pages/boyles.html

    What follows are the general’s words responding to a question about political correctness and U.S. policy with the World of Islam:

    “Well, we do continue to coddle and we, we’re the only one that has an outreach program. The Muslims sure don’t. The only outreach the Islamists have are creating new mosques in the United States and around the world, where they recruit and spread their evil. And they can disguise it all they want to, but I call the mosque, like the one in New York the Trojan Horse of the, the radical Islamic world. And you have the likes of Saudi Arabia, which continues to be the top funders of global jihad…”

    On the open border situation, and on Attorney General Eric Holder’s lawsuit against Arizona’s Save Our State amendment:

    “Well, I just got back from Scottsdale. I was down there for two events last week. And of course the high murder rate, kidnap rate – but not only do you have the, the drug cartels, but you also have now the influence of Hezbollah – radicals that are being supported from Iran through Chavez in Venezuela, up through Central America. We’ve got so much stuff coming in across the borders, and groups working together. We see the Zetas, which are the former Mexican military, joining the drug cartels.

    And so the article that I just wrote basically was to put a twenty mile, twenty kilometer no-go zone south of the border and I would use our forces to basically conduct offensive operations anywhere within that twenty kilometer zone. Cause we can’t stay on defense. That’s what we’re doin’ –tryin’ to hide behind this fence. And it’s just not working. They’re infiltrating seventy-five, eighty miles into Arizona and other states now.

    And we’re basically being politically correct. And here you have the Feds fighting Jan Brewer in Arizona. I mean it’s just national suicide that’s going on right now…”

    At this point Boyles brings up A.G. Eric Holder putting terrorists on trial:

    “Well, he should be locked up. He should be, put handcuffs on him and also Obama, and taken away. I think they’re conducting treason, myself…”

    Listen to all of it. And I believe that if we are not to continue down this path to national suicide, some Congress members had better pay attention to Vallely’s words.

  25. avatar
    Majority Will December 7, 2010 at 2:32 pm #

    Black Lion: And you have the likes of Saudi Arabia, which continues to be the top funders of global jihad…”

    And Prince Alwaleed bin Talal al-Saud of Saudi Arabia, through his Kingdom Holding Company, owns 7% of News Corp.’s (which includes Fox News) shares, making Kingdom Holdings the second largest shareholder.

  26. avatar
    HORUS December 7, 2010 at 3:20 pm #

    ellid: Not to mention getting Champus or Tricare for himself and his dependents.

    Champus is gone, Tricare took over.
    My mother is still covered under my father’s service.
    Tricare is the benefit plan dependents of military get now.
    Tricare is better than Champus ever was, much better coverage.

  27. avatar
    Slartibartfast December 7, 2010 at 4:31 pm #

    goodgravy: Brzezinski: I am very worried that most Americans are close to total ignorance about the world. They are ignorant. That is an unhealthy condition in a country in which foreign policy has to be endorsed by the people if it is to be pursued. And it makes it much more difficult for any president to pursue an intelligent policy that does justice to the complexity of the world.

    SPIEGEL: Yet the American right is still convinced of American exceptionalism.

    Brzezinski: That is a reaction to the inability of people to understand global complexity or important issues like American energy dependency. Therefore, they search for simplistic sources of comfort and clarity. And the people that they are now selecting to be, so to speak, the spokespersons of their anxieties are, in most cases, stunningly ignorant.

    Majority Will:
    And Prince Alwaleed bin Talal al-Saud of Saudi Arabia, through his Kingdom Holding Company, owns 7% of News Corp.’s (which includes Fox News) shares, making Kingdom Holdings the second largest shareholder.

    I don’t think that there is much of a chance of alleviating the ignorance of conservatives while propaganda from Fox is their #1 source for ‘news’… (and what does it say about the birthers that many of them think that Fox News is in on it?) The sad part is that many of them, if they were presented with what Dr. Brezinski said, would squawk about the New World Order or something and ignore the insightful words of this extremely intelligent man.

  28. avatar
    Slartibartfast December 7, 2010 at 6:35 pm #

    ImaObot: A certified copy of BO’s COLB from the HDoH will have the word “Amended” printed on it.

    And your evidence of this is what exactly?

  29. avatar
    misha December 7, 2010 at 6:38 pm #

    ImaObot: A certified copy of BO’s COLB from the HDoH will have the word “Amended” printed on it. Which brings about the question of why did Obama forge a document

    Good point: I found an authentic Kenya BC (Obama’s?). Hope this helps.

  30. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 7, 2010 at 6:56 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: Is Puckett buying into Lakin’s birther crap? He seems like a reasonable person and a good attorney who would be telling Lakin to drop it already.

    I invite you to listen very carefully to what Puckett said and what he didn’t say. As far as I heard, he never said that he agreed with the birther position. He said things like “one might say that.” Of course if I were being interviewed by Boyles, I would have objected to what he said, but Puckett’s job is not to be confrontational, but to present Terry Lakin in the best possible light.

  31. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 7, 2010 at 6:57 pm #

    misha: Good point: I found an authentic Kenya BC (Obama’s?). Hope this helps.

    Did you know that Kenya has revoked Obama’s passport?

  32. avatar
    James M December 7, 2010 at 7:06 pm #

    ImaObot: A certified copy of BO’s COLB from the HDoH will have the word “Amended” printed on it. Which brings about the question of why did Obama forge a document

    This is a fine example of “begging the question.”

    Are you accusing President Obama of forging a state document? By that, I mean are you personally willing to sign your name to a sworn deposition that you know this document to be a forgery?

  33. avatar
    Stephen December 7, 2010 at 7:51 pm #

    I followed the link posted by GOREFAN to Lakin’s birth document. I noted several things, first the document is a “Certification of Vital Record”, second the document is a certification of is a “Certificate of Live Birth” not a birth certificate, and third, as stated at the bottom it is a copy of the record. SO, what Lakin has posted is not an ORIGINAL document, it is also not a Birth Certificate but a copy of a Certification. And as we all know from reading the birther information, a Certification is not a Certificate.

    What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Can’t Lakin provide his original Birth Certificate?

  34. avatar
    Jason December 7, 2010 at 9:58 pm #

    However, Lakin’s BC provides a hell of alot more information than Obama’s such as hospital name and the birth doc. Lakin’s BC definitely establishes he was born where he claims. Obama’s BC lists no doc or hospital. And since we don’t have this information and the COLB that Obama possesses could have easily been obtained even if Obama was NOT born in Hawaii given the 1961 circumstances, Obama’s birthplace remains in question.

  35. avatar
    Slartibartfast December 7, 2010 at 10:11 pm #

    Jason: However, Lakin’s BC provides a hell of alot more information than Obama’s such as hospital name and the birth doc.Lakin’s BC definitely establishes he was born where he claims.Obama’s BC lists no doc or hospital.And since we don’t have this information and the COLB that Obama possesses could have easily been obtained even if Obama was NOT born in Hawaii given the 1961 circumstances, Obama’s birthplace remains in question.

    So soon-to-be-mister Lakin’s BC doesn’t have to meet the standards that you apply to President Obama’s because of your assertion (for which you have no evidence) that the COLB used to produce the online image ‘could have easily been obtained’ despite statements by Hawaii DOH officials indicating that an official record of President Obama’s birth in Hawaii does, in fact, exist.

    Does it hurt to come up with that twisted logic?

  36. avatar
    Jason December 7, 2010 at 10:16 pm #

    The prevailing theory is that Obama’s COLB regardless of whether is real or not is based on information that is fraudelant. The underlying information used to derive the COLB is fraudelant. Since we have not seen the underlying information, their is no way where to prove this true or false unless a long-form BC is released showing he was in fact born in a hospital with a doc.

  37. avatar
    Black Lion December 7, 2010 at 10:17 pm #

    Jason: However, Lakin’s BC provides a hell of alot more information than Obama’s such as hospital name and the birth doc. Lakin’s BC definitely establishes he was born where he claims. Obama’s BC lists no doc or hospital. And since we don’t have this information and the COLB that Obama possesses could have easily been obtained even if Obama was NOT born in Hawaii given the 1961 circumstances, Obama’s birthplace remains in question.

    Again what proof do you have of that? There was no law in 1961 that would allow Obama to be registered if he was not born in Hawaii….The place of birth says Honolulu….If the President was not born in HI he would not have a COLB saying he was born there…

  38. avatar
    Black Lion December 7, 2010 at 10:23 pm #

    Jason: The prevailing theory is that Obama’s COLB regardless of whether is real or not is based on information that is fraudelant. The underlying information used to derive the COLB is fraudelant. Since we have not seen the underlying information, their is no way where to prove this true or false unless a long-form BC is released showing he was in fact born in a hospital with a doc.

    Prevailing theory is not proof? Do you have any evidence of fraud? Here in America you need proof of an accusation. You claim that the COLB is based on fraudulent info, OK prove it. Since the COLB is proof of what the information states on file, and the COLB says Honolulu for place of birth, then all evidence shows Honolulu. If you have evidence this is not the case then present it. You can’t use the theory that if you get the long form you will find proof of fraud….That is not how the law works…

  39. avatar
    James M December 7, 2010 at 10:25 pm #

    Jason: Obama’s birthplace remains in question.

    So you say. How is it “in question” exactly?

    Do you allege that his birth certificate is a forgery? If so, do you further allege that Hawaii’s certification is itself part of a conspiracy related to that forgery? What evidence persuades you toward these beliefs, if you hold them?

  40. avatar
    James M December 7, 2010 at 10:28 pm #

    Jason: The underlying information used to derive the COLB is fraudelant.

    If you are prepared to sign your name to a sworn deposition attesting to this knowledge, why haven’t you?

    Do you have personal knowledge of this fraud, or don’t you?

  41. avatar
    Daniel December 7, 2010 at 10:29 pm #

    Jason: The prevailing theory is that Obama’s COLB regardless of whether is real or not is based on information that is fraudelant.The underlying information used to derive the COLB is fraudelant.Since we have not seen the underlying information, their is no way where to prove this true or false unless a long-form BC is released showing he was in fact born in a hospital with a doc.

    Actually the prevailing theory, borne out by objective evidence, and expert and authoritative testimony, is that the COLB is sufficient, the information therein is factual, and that Obama is President. That theory has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt ( please note I said reasonable doubt. Unreasonable people may not like it)

    There is a minority fringe whacko conspiracy hypothesis that supposes that Obama’s information is fraudulent in some form or other. Note this is not a theoiry, but rather a hypothesis.. Of course the hypothesis is not borne out by any objective evidence, and is, in fact, refuted by what objective evidence exists. This hypothesis is based purely on speculation arising from conjecture. The people who espouse this ridiculous hypothesis are not taken seriously by any experts on the subject, nor indeed by any reasonable persons whatsoever. The adherents of this peurile fantasy value shoulda/woulda/coulda style fictional meanderings over objective evidence, whch is why nobody will ever take them seriously.

  42. avatar
    Daniel December 7, 2010 at 10:35 pm #

    Jason: However, Lakin’s BC provides a hell of alot more information than Obama’s such as hospital name and the birth doc.

    Exactly how much of that “extra” information is required by law to establish Constitutional eligibility?

    Oh yeah…. NONE

    Epic fail.

  43. avatar
    Daniel December 7, 2010 at 10:37 pm #

    Jason: Obama’s birthplace remains in question.

    And the idea of a spherical earth remains in question, for those who reeeeeeaaaaaallllyy need the earth to be flat.

    Practically any fact “remains in question” for some lunatic somewhere.

    Just because some poor deluded soul questions the 3 dimentionality of the earth, should we all drop whatever we’re doing and pay homage to his deluded question ?

    No?

    Alllllllllllrighty then.

  44. avatar
    Sef December 7, 2010 at 10:44 pm #

    Daniel: Note this is not a theoiry, but rather a hypothesis.

    Not even an hypothesis, as there are no observations from which to draw any conclusions. Birthers start with the conclusion & work backwards.

  45. avatar
    Obsolete December 7, 2010 at 10:52 pm #

    Is Jason actually the banned poster “James”? You know, the guy who was banned for posting his judge-spanking porn fantasies…
    On another thread, he claims that a poster’s BC has been rendered invalid because the poster blocked out the cert’s numbers on the scan he posted.
    James also believed that altering a scan of an image invalidates the actual document. Can two different people with similar names be that stupid?

  46. avatar
    ron December 7, 2010 at 11:01 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I invite you to listen very carefully to what Puckett said and what he didn’t say. As far as I heard, he never said that he agreed with the birther position. He said things like “one might say that.” Of course if I were being interviewed by Boyles, I would have objected to what he said, but Puckett’s job is not to be confrontational, but to present Terry Lakin in the best possible light.

    my problem was with him saying the chain of command failed lakin, and never answered his questions. lakin is a college grad a doctor, he failed himself siding with the birther lunacy

  47. avatar
    ron December 7, 2010 at 11:08 pm #

    did Lakin ever reveal what his command said?

  48. avatar
    Sef December 7, 2010 at 11:08 pm #

    ron: y problem was with him saying the chain of command failed lakin

    If he says that during the trial I doubt the members will take it too kindly.

  49. avatar
    Jason December 7, 2010 at 11:28 pm #

    I’m not sure Puckett agreeds with the birther beliefs but he certainly agrees that the answer to Obama’s eligiblity must be be resolved. Lakin is not a lawyer and must have honestly thought that military courts could provide with that nagging question even with the consquences that come with it. Unfortunately the Army has failed LTC Terry Lakin in providing him with the answer.

    While the law may state that Obama’s eligibility has no revalence to the validity of military orders.
    Any reasonable person who is not well versed in the law would have to come to opposite conclusion just as Lakin did

  50. avatar
    James M December 7, 2010 at 11:35 pm #

    Jason: While the law may state that Obama’s eligibility has no revalence to the validity of military orders.
    Any reasonable person who is not well versed in the law would have to come to opposite conclusion just as Lakin did

    What, exactly, would lead a reasonable person to question President Obama’s eligibility in the first place? How is the conclusion reasonable? Please be specific, and please provide evidence to support your conjecture.

  51. avatar
    Majority Will December 7, 2010 at 11:51 pm #

    James M:
    What, exactly, would lead a reasonable person to question President Obama’s eligibility in the first place?How is the conclusion reasonable?Please be specific, and please provide evidence to support your conjecture.

    You might get a more reasonable, intelligent answer from a stalk of broccoli.

  52. avatar
    Jason December 7, 2010 at 11:58 pm #

    Well, Obama is the CIC, meaning he’s the head guy in charge of the armed forces. The buck stops at Obama. If Obama is ineligibe, then everything he says and does regarding his role as CIC is all unlawful. Any policy, any statement, any decision, it’s all unlawful. A military officer who is sworn to support and defend the US Constitution (they don’t take an oath to the president, UCMJ, military only the Constitution) would certainly have issue about such ineligibility that would definitely include the validity of military orders. They may not familiar with the De Facto officer doctrine but even if they were, there is no way such a doctrine could repair the constiutional infringement.

  53. avatar
    Greg December 8, 2010 at 12:22 am #

    If Obama is ineligibe, then everything he says and does regarding his role as CIC is all unlawful. Any policy, any statement, any decision, it’s all unlawful.

    So, let me get this straight. You think that every soldier would go to jail? What about those people who commit crimes that are created under the Obama administration? They go free? Those arrested by the FBI that gets their funds from the budget Obama signed? Free?

    The fact that this is a nonsensical outcome should give a hint of why the court created the De Facto Officer doctrine (which actually originates in the ideas of apparent authority and reliance, which predate the United States).

    While the law may state that Obama’s eligibility has no revalence to the validity of military orders. Any reasonable person who is not well versed in the law would have to come to opposite conclusion just as Lakin did

    Ignorance of the law is no defense.

  54. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP December 8, 2010 at 12:26 am #

    Majority Will:
    You might get a more reasonable, intelligent answer from a stalk of broccoli.

    Now why are you picking on a stalk of broccoli?

  55. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP December 8, 2010 at 12:29 am #

    If Lakin had questioned any of numbskull Bush’s orders for ANY reason, these idiots would be calling him a traitor.

  56. avatar
    NBC December 8, 2010 at 12:31 am #

    Jason: Any reasonable person who is not well versed in the law would have to come to opposite conclusion just as Lakin did

    Which is why amateurs should take care when playing a lawyer… There are real consequences attached.
    Just saying…

    And there is nothing reasonable about ignorance, especially not when acting on it when told the facts.

  57. avatar
    Majority Will December 8, 2010 at 12:35 am #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP:
    Now why are you picking on a stalk of broccoli?

    Actually, I respect them 100% more than idiot birthers.

  58. avatar
    Majority Will December 8, 2010 at 12:38 am #

    Jason: Well, Obama is the CIC, meaning he’s the head guy in charge of the armed forces.The buck stops at Obama.If Obama is ineligibe, then everything he says and does regarding his role as CIC is all unlawful.Any policy, any statement, any decision, it’s all unlawful.A military officer who is sworn to support and defend the US Constitution (they don’t take an oath to the president, UCMJ, military only the Constitution) would certainly have issue about such ineligibility that would definitely include the validity of military orders.They may not familiar with the De Facto officer doctrine but even if they were, there is no way such a doctrine could repair the constiutional infringement.

    Yeah, “they may not familiar” but that doesn’t mean you’re not a raving lunatic who should be in a mental institution.

  59. avatar
    Rickey December 8, 2010 at 12:40 am #

    Jason: However, Lakin’s BC provides a hell of alot more information than Obama’s such as hospital name and the birth doc.

    It looks fishy to me. Where is the doctor’s signature? There is a space for the signature, but instead a name is typed in. The space for the registrar’s signature also contains a typed name.

    By the way, my New York birth certificate doesn’t include a hospital name or a birth doctor. It was good enough for me to get a U.S. passport, though. How do you explain that?

  60. avatar
    Rickey December 8, 2010 at 12:46 am #

    Jason: Well, Obama is the CIC, meaning he’s the head guy in charge of the armed forces.The buck stops at Obama.

    I never fail to marvel at how the so-called “defenders of the Constitution” are so ignorant about the document which they purport to defend.

    Article 1, Section 8: The Congress shall have power to…make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces.

    The military’s authority to give orders comes from the Congress, not the President.

  61. avatar
    NBC December 8, 2010 at 12:48 am #

    They may not familiar with the De Facto officer doctrine but even if they were, there is no way such a doctrine could repair the constiutional infringement.

    That’s a two edged sword, which is why the military should be careful to do amateur lawyering as the costs can be quite significant.

    The Founders understood that the cost to our Country would be far worse if we were to allow and joe blow to challenge the eligibility of our President just because his feelings are hurt. And I am sure that those military guys and galls are tough enough to accept this as the alternative is far worse…

  62. avatar
    Slartibartfast December 8, 2010 at 12:49 am #

    Majority Will:
    Actually, I respect them 100% more than idiot birthers.

    Now you’re just damning broccoli with faint praise – I’ve seen nothing to indicate that you have any respect whatsoever for birthers πŸ˜‰ (not that they deserve it…)

  63. avatar
    James M December 8, 2010 at 12:52 am #

    Jason: Well, Obama is the CIC, meaning he’s the head guy in charge of the armed forces.

    Ok

    The buck stops at Obama.

    Ok

    If Obama is [ineligible], then everything he says and does regarding his role as CIC is all unlawful.

    And if I am Old MacDonald, then I have a farm.

    Any policy, any statement, any decision, it’s all unlawful.

    You haven’t established your antecedent, so you are premature in trying to develop your predicate.

    A military officer who is sworn to support and defend the US Constitution (they don’t take an oath to the president, UCMJ, military only the Constitution) would certainly have issue about such ineligibility that would definitely include the validity of military orders.They may not familiar with the De Facto officer doctrine but even if they were, there is no way such a doctrine could repair the [Constitutional] infringement.

    Please demonstrate President Obama’s ineligibility to hold office. Then use that evidence to persuade your Congressman to initiate Articles of Impeachment. You have some reason to believe that President Obama is not eligible, but you have not shared your reasons with us. What is your premise for this conjecture, and by what evidence are you persuaded to accept it? How is that evidence relevant? Why is it acceptable? Why should a disinterested party accept your premise, based on your evidence.

  64. avatar
    Majority Will December 8, 2010 at 12:53 am #

    Slartibartfast:
    Now you’re just damning broccoli with faint praise – I’ve seen nothing to indicate that you have any respect whatsoever for birthers (not that they deserve it…)

    Tru dat.

  65. avatar
    sfjeff December 8, 2010 at 12:54 am #

    Jason,

    Lakin was counseled several times by his superior officers that his refusal of orders was against regulations, and that his rational was not reasonable or acceptable- so i don’t see how he could claim ignorance.

    “Well, Obama is the CIC, meaning he’s the head guy in charge of the armed forces. The buck stops at Obama. If Obama is ineligibe, then everything he says and does regarding his role as CIC is all unlawful. Any policy, any statement, any decision, it’s all unlawful. A military officer who is sworn to support and defend the US Constitution (they don’t take an oath to the president, UCMJ, military only the Constitution) would certainly have issue about such ineligibility that would definitely include the validity of military orders. They may not familiar with the De Facto officer doctrine but even if they were, there is no way such a doctrine could repair the constiutional infringement.”

    Lakin continued to perform his duties- and collect his pay- up to and until he was ordered to go to Afghanistan. Was he breaking the law up to that point? Is every soldier except Lakin breaking the law? Because its really an all or nothing thing- either Lakin is breaking the law, or every other soldier who reports for duty, and follows the orders given him by his superior officer is breaking the law.

    Lakin had no plausible reason for refusing his orders, was counseled otherwise, and made an informed decision to be a martyr for something he wrongly believes in. He should be going to Leavenworth singing Hallelejuh’s, sure that his cause is just. He should be happy that he will be sacrificed for his cause.

  66. avatar
    gorefan December 8, 2010 at 12:54 am #

    ron: lakin is a college grad a doctor, he failed himself siding with the birther lunacy

    Lakin had a responsiblity to do the due diligence necessary before making such a life altering descision. Instead he expect everyone else to answer his questions. And he based those questions on internet rumors. If he had been serious about the truth, ten minutes on the internet would have provided him with enough information to show that the birthers were nuts. He made his choice. He should be willing to live with it.

  67. avatar
    Majority Will December 8, 2010 at 12:56 am #

    Jason: The prevailing theory is that Obama’s COLB regardless of whether is real or not is based on information that is fraudelant.The underlying information used to derive the COLB is fraudelant.Since we have not seen the underlying information, their is no way where to prove this true or false unless a long-form BC is released showing he was in fact born in a hospital with a doc.

    I seriously doubt you’re an American. Where is your original BC?

  68. avatar
    BatGuano December 8, 2010 at 2:14 am #

    Jason: their is no way where to prove this true or false unless a long-form BC is released showing he was in fact born in a hospital with a doc

    as been stated before, not all states list doctor and hospital on their birth certificates. my daughter’s doesn’t and it was perfectly valid in the eyes of the state dept to get her a US passport.

    do you believe, jason, that a hospital or doctor could verify with any certainty a birth from 50 years earlier ( or 35 for that matter ) ? hospital records are not kept forever. most records are only required legally to be kept for 7years and obstetric records only till the child reaches 18 or 25 ( depending on the state ). a hospital may keep a birth log but….. the information would be very limited.

  69. avatar
    Lupin December 8, 2010 at 2:37 am #

    I’m not sure if you consider your country officially at war or not, but in times of war, Lakin ought to be shot, end of story.

    My dad was in the army, my two grandfathers in the navy, my uncle and godfather were in the navy too, and a commendation for one of my ancestors, a navy officer who saved the life of his Captain during the siege of Toulon, hangs in my office. I really have no patience for Lakin.

  70. avatar
    Daniel December 8, 2010 at 3:17 am #

    Jason: If Obama is ineligibe,

    You can’t disobey orders based on an “if”.

    If you think you can then you’re as stupid as Lakin.

  71. avatar
    Daniel December 8, 2010 at 3:22 am #

    Jason: Puckett …certainly agrees that the answer to Obama’s eligiblity must be be resolved.

    I’m sure you’re very certain of that.

    However, that’s not what he said, and I highly doubt a lawyer of his stature and reputation would be so ignorant of the law.

    Obama’s eligibility was resolved when Congress verified it, as mandated by the Constitution.

    Sorry you don ‘t like that, but the real world is not bound by you or Lakin’s delusions.

  72. avatar
    The Magic M December 8, 2010 at 6:38 am #

    > You can’t use the theory that if you get the long form you will find proof of fraud….That is not how the law works…

    Unfortunately, it sometimes does. I’ve seen several civil lawsuits now (SCO vs. IBM being the most prominent) where the plaintiff basically went “I don’t have to tell you what you did wrong, you know it yourself since you did it” and “I can’t prove yet that you did anything wrong, so I need to see all your files to find my proof” – massive fishing expeditions. And some courts have actually entertained that.
    (Maybe birthers should try these courts? Just saying…)

    The birthers, as every conspiracy theorist, say “absence of evidence is evidence of absence”. I bet they wake up in a sweat every night because they dreamt that Obama actually produced his “long form BC”. They don’t want him to produce it since then they’d have to abandon their “he’s not born in Hawaii” meme which they need since the number of people who “believe” or “are not sure” is far higher than the number of people they could reach with their Vattel arguments.

  73. avatar
    Greg December 8, 2010 at 7:14 am #

    Jason: The underlying information used to derive the COLB is fraudelant. Since we have not seen the underlying information, their is no way where to prove this true or false unless a long-form BC is released showing he was in fact born in a hospital with a doc.

    You guys make such terrible investigators.

    You don’t need anything from Obama to prove that the information in the birth certificate is based on false information. Just prove, conclusively, that he was born somewhere else! Or, you could figure out how many OB/Gyns were working in August, 1961, then interview each of them that is still alive to see if they remember Obama’s birth. You could follow up with the woman who claims to have spoken with the doctor who delivered Obama.

    Pretend you have the long form birth certificate. What do you think it says? Okay, now what? What would you do with the information on the birth certificate? Now, do that! You don’t need the birth certificate to do any investigation of information you would have received from the birth certificate!

    If you guys were in charge of investigating real crimes, our prisons would be empty of souls.

    What pathetic whinery! In the absence of any evidence that Obama was born elsewhere, you have to rely on shifting the burden back to Obama to prove, and reprove, that he was born in Hawaii.

  74. avatar
    BatGuano December 8, 2010 at 8:15 am #

    Lupin: I’m not sure if you consider your country officially at war or not, but in times of war, Lakin ought to be shot, end of story.

    i’m pretty sure that a declaration of war is needed from congress before we are “officially” at war. that hasn’t happened since WWII. i think we are just in another one of those police action thingies ( altho the difference in definitions means squat to the ground troops ).

  75. avatar
    Jason December 8, 2010 at 9:17 am #

    One thing people need to understand about LTC Terry Lakin is that Lakin is prepared to deploy to AF if Obama would just produce the BC. His bags are packed and he’s ready to go. All Obama has to do is just produce it. I hope that during the court martial, Lakin’s lawyer is able to send this message strongly to to panel.

  76. avatar
    Whatever4 December 8, 2010 at 9:21 am #

    Greg:
    You guys make such terrible investigators.You don’t need anything from Obama to prove that the information in the birth certificate is based on false information. Just prove, conclusively, that he was born somewhere else! Or, you could figure out how many OB/Gyns were working in August, 1961, then interview each of them that is still alive to see if they remember Obama’s birth. You could follow up with the woman who claims to have spoken with the doctor who delivered Obama.
    Pretend you have the long form birth certificate. What do you think it says? Okay, now what? What would you do with the information on the birth certificate? Now, do that! You don’t need the birth certificate to do any investigation of information you would have received from the birth certificate!
    If you guys were in charge of investigating real crimes, our prisons would be empty of souls.
    What pathetic whinery! In the absence of any evidence that Obama was born elsewhere, you have to rely on shifting the burden back to Obama to prove, and reprove, that he was born in Hawaii.

    BINGO, that’s the whole issue in a nutshell.

  77. avatar
    DavidH December 8, 2010 at 9:28 am #

    Given that Lakin now has competent counsel, I was hoping that he could negotiate an article 15, reduction in rank, forfeiture his pay and then deploy like he should have to begin with.

  78. avatar
    kimba December 8, 2010 at 9:35 am #

    “If you guys were in charge of investigating real crimes, our prisons would be empty of souls.”

    This isn’t about accepting the burden of proof and finding the evidence to prove what they assert, it’s about people whose attitude about African Americans is right out of the 1850s. They expect a black man to show his papers when asked.

  79. avatar
    The Magic M December 8, 2010 at 9:40 am #

    > Or, you could figure out how many OB/Gyns were working in August, 1961, then interview each of them that is still alive to see if they remember Obama’s birth.

    But that’s what they did with the Columbia “non-attendance” pseudo-“proof” from Manning’s mock trial.
    If they really followed your advice, they’d say “we’ve interviewed everyone we could find and none of them remembers giving birth to Obama, so that proves he was not born there” – ignoring of course those they could not find or who have died since or who simply don’t remember because they don’t remember every child they delivered just in case one of them would become President some 45 years later.

  80. avatar
    kimba December 8, 2010 at 9:44 am #

    Jason: Jason December 8, 2010 at 9:17 am Jason(Quote) #
    One thing people need to understand about LTC Terry Lakin is that Lakin is prepared to deploy to AF if Obama would just produce the BC. His bags are packed and he’s ready to go. All Obama has to do is just produce it. I hope that during the court martial, Lakin’s lawyer is able to send this message strongly to to panel.

    The time is long past for Lakin to be ready to go to Afghanistan. His military career is over. His pension is lost. What’s at stake is how much time he spends in jail. That’s why his family has invested in the legal expertise of someone like Puckett. It would be sad if Lakin doesn’t understand this. I expect he does and the whole “I’d go to Afghanistan today if Obama showed the BC” facade is simply to drum up $ from the birthers.

  81. avatar
    The Magic M December 8, 2010 at 9:45 am #

    > Since we have not seen the underlying information, their is no way where to prove this true or false unless a long-form BC is released showing he was in fact born in a hospital with a doc.

    What would that “prove” to you?

    The “underlying information” would simply be “someone wrote something on a piece of paper” (name of doctor, place of birth etc.).

    You birthers would just claim that doesn’t make it true, so you’d ask for proof that that which is written in the records corresponds to the “actual factual real-real true truthy-truth” and was not made up/in error/hearsay/maliciously falsely entered etc.

    Or that writing something in a record does not make it true, does not cite the sources (“delivered by Dr. John Shultz and nurse Richards” could, in fact, also mean that the birth took place at home and the hospital was simply writing down what the Obamas told them, right, dear birfoons?) and so on.

    Talk about moving goalposts, you guys move entire stadiums.

  82. avatar
    James M December 8, 2010 at 10:12 am #

    BatGuano:
    i’m pretty sure that a declaration of war is needed from congress before we are “officially” at war. that hasn’t happened since WWII. i think we are just in another one of those police action thingies ( altho the difference in definitions means squat to the ground troops ).

    I wish there was a time or resource limit after which Congress was obliged to make a declaration. We need things like rationing of commodities, national production of materiel, conscription, and investment.
    I would go much further and require producers to stop taking profits in cash – past their operating costs they would be compensated in war bonds, redeemable upon Victory. There wouldn’t be any civilian autos or aircraft being produced, period. While at war, pretty much any endeavor that is not directly in support of the war effort would not be rewarded, either economically or socially.
    Why aren’t we so serious about war that we put everything aside for the duration? Do we really want other things more than Victory? While your nation is at war, there should be no such thing as “civilian life.” Anything you do for yourself is done at the expense of the war effort.

  83. avatar
    Black Lion December 8, 2010 at 10:15 am #

    Jason: One thing people need to understand about LTC Terry Lakin is that Lakin is prepared to deploy to AF if Obama would just produce the BC. His bags are packed and he’s ready to go. All Obama has to do is just produce it. I hope that during the court martial, Lakin’s lawyer is able to send this message strongly to to panel.

    That ship has passed. If that was the case how do you explain the fact that he is charged with missing a movement of his unit and disobeying a direct order from his superior? Meaning how does Obama showing his BC change those facts? You can disobey an order then change your mind and obey it. You can miss a movement of your unit and then join them at a later date. So tell us how will producing the BC help Lakin? He choose to end his career by doing what he did. The idiotic birthers live in some fantasy land where they think they can decide what laws apply to them and determine what laws mean.
    Trust me during the court martial Lakin’s attorney will be hoping to just limit the damage that Lakin has already done by listening to people like you.

  84. avatar
    Black Lion December 8, 2010 at 10:18 am #

    Black Lion: That ship has passed. If that was the case how do you explain the fact that he is charged with missing a movement of his unit and disobeying a direct order from his superior? Meaning how does Obama showing his BC change those facts? You can disobey an order then change your mind and obey it. You can miss a movement of your unit and then join them at a later date. So tell us how will producing the BC help Lakin? He choose to end his career by doing what he did. The idiotic birthers live in some fantasy land where they think they can decide what laws apply to them and determine what laws mean.Trust me during the court martial Lakin’s attorney will be hoping to just limit the damage that Lakin has already done by listening to people like you.

    Correction…I meant you can’t disobey an order and then change your mind and obey it.

  85. avatar
    JoZeppy December 8, 2010 at 10:34 am #

    Jason: One thing people need to understand about LTC Terry Lakin is that Lakin is prepared to deploy to AF if Obama would just produce the BC. His bags are packed and he’s ready to go. All Obama has to do is just produce it. I hope that during the court martial, Lakin’s lawyer is able to send this message strongly to to panel.

    Which is entirely irrelevant. He is in the military (at least for a little while longer). You don’t get to place conditions on orders handed down by your superiors. Particularly conditions based on stark raving mad conspiracy theories that have no foundation in law or even reality.

  86. avatar
    Black Lion December 8, 2010 at 10:37 am #

    From the Post and Fail regarding Lakin…

    “(Dec. 6, 2010) — Three rallies were held in the state of Arizona today in support of Army flight surgeon Lt. Col. Terrence Lakin, who is scheduled to be court-martialed in a court of no authority on December 14, 2010 for refusing to follow orders from his chain of command.

    Lakin’s decision was based on the fact that no conclusive proof that Obama was born in Hawaii, as he claims, has ever been presented. Rather, evidence exists which points to a birth in Kenya as claimed by Atty. Philip Berg in a lawsuit filed in Pennsylvania which eventually reached the U.S. Supreme Court but was dismissed.

    There have been several reports in African newspapers that Obama was born in Kenya or Tanzania, and his wife Michelle has also described Kenya as Obama’s “home country.” How, then, can he be considered a “natural born Citizen” in keeping with the U.S. Constitution’s requirement for President and Commander-in-Chief?

    Some arguments state that since Obama’s father was never a U.S. citizen, that alone disqualifies him from “natural born” status. Others have asked if Obama, having been born of a British citizen father and presumably an American mother, can be eligible based on his dual citizenship, which Obama has freely admitted to having.

    There is also the issue of his possible Indonesian citizenship and whether or not that expired or was forfeited by Obama when he reached the age of majority.

    As The Post & Email contends that, because the chain of command is apparently broken due to an illegitimate commander-in-chief, there is no one to authorize that charges be brought or a court-martial be held against anyone in the military at the present time. There is no authorization in the U.S. Constitution for the Pentagon or any other military body to hold a court-martial without the approval of the commander-in-chief of the military. It therefore appears that the military is abusing its authority by acting outside of its constitutional boundaries, something which LCDR Walter Francis Fitzpatrick, III claims it has been doing “for decades.”

    There is also an unanswered criminal complaint of treason against Obama filed by LCDR Walter Fitzpatrick with the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Tennessee. Members of the American Grand Jury also filed the complaint with courts, judges, district attorneys and governors across the country, and several states convened their own citizens’ grand juries, issuing presentments which charged Obama with fraud and treason.

    The following is a report of the times, locations and events which occurred at each rallying point.

    10:30 – 11:45 AM – McCain

    30 Supporters gathered at John McCain’s office on 16th Street in Phoenix. Except for a group of about six that entered the office for about a 10 minute period, all marched and held signs (some photos attached) and American flags on both sides of the street for the entire time. Many drivers honked in agreement as they drove by. The group that entered the office were greeted by McCain staffer Barb Donaldson, who listened to those of us who spoke and promised to report the rally and relay the comments made to her to the Senator. THE BEST ITEM TO NOTE ABOUT THIS ENCOUNTER IS THAT IT WAS VIDEO RECORDED BY A YOU TUBE VIDEOGRAPHER named Ed Vallejo and that video will be circulated as soon as we see it posted. We were all surprised that Ms. Donaldson allowed him to film.

    12 – 1:00 PM – Kyl

    The same 30 supporters made the short trip over to Jon Kyl’s office on Camelback Road in Phoenix and again displayed the signs and flags on both sides of the street for the entire period. Camelback Road is one of the most heavily travelled streets in Phoenix and again the sound of many horns signified driver support. This time, a larger sub-group of about ten entered the office itself and were allowed to comment for 25-30 minutes to staffers Andrew Wilder and Adam Bean, who took notes to relay to Kyl. Of course, most of the comments directly addressed LTC Lakin’s situation including the prohibition on his staging of his own defense, the ridiculous explanations for that by Judge Lind and the responsibility of someone like Jon Kyl to speak out for justice and for Lakin. Natural born citizenship was also addressed. THE VIDEOGRAPHER WAS NOT ALLOWED IN TO THIS MEETING. (Still photos attached – more to come)

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/12/07/summary-of-the-support-terry-lakin-rallies-held-in-arizona-on-december-6/

    So we got about 30 so called protestors….I wonder if that really means about 8 people and some homeless folks that just happened to be there…..

    And in the comments, some funny stuff…

    James says:
    Tuesday, December 7, 2010 at 12:02 PM
    The word is out that it appears Orly Taitz will be attending LTC Terry Lakin’s court martial is Ft. Meade, Maryland

    MattS says:
    Tuesday, December 7, 2010 at 7:23 PM
    She is the best attorney in this country. If I were facing the electric chair, I would want her on my side. Charles Lincoln said that she did her best work in a chair after all.

    If she is at the trial, this is a very good sign for Lakin. I bet Obama was sweating bullets when he heard the news.

    Go Lady Liberty!!!

    Jedi Pauly says:
    Tuesday, December 7, 2010 at 8:57 AM
    Thank you Sharon for covering this event. You are doing a great job and service to America!
    ———————-
    Mrs. Rondeau replies: The eyewitness coverage from Mr. Lichter was much appreciated.

  87. avatar
    Greg December 8, 2010 at 10:51 am #

    Jason: One thing people need to understand about LTC Terry Lakin is that Lakin is prepared to deploy to AF if Obama would just produce the BC. His bags are packed and he’s ready to go.

    It’s good that he’s packed, because the only place he’s going is Leavenworth. Obama could present him with a birth certificate signed by God, and unless that certificate were strapped to the Tardis, or the Way-Back machine and could reverse time so that Lakin could not disobey orders, Lakin committed a crime. That he did it because he really, truly, deeply, madly, believes that Obama’s not really a citizen matters not one bit.

  88. avatar
    Majority Will December 8, 2010 at 11:02 am #

    “The prevailing theory is that . . . ”

    Birther idiot. Should anyone wonder why they deserve derision?

  89. avatar
    JoZeppy December 8, 2010 at 11:12 am #

    Black Lion: MattS says:
    Tuesday, December 7, 2010 at 7:23 PM
    She is the best attorney in this country. If I were facing the electric chair, I would want her on my side. Charles Lincoln said that she did her best work in a chair after all.
    If she is at the trial, this is a very good sign for Lakin. I bet Obama was sweating bullets when he heard the news.
    Go Lady Liberty!!!

    Wow…just wow…I hope that was sarcasm….

  90. avatar
    Daniel December 8, 2010 at 11:13 am #

    Jason: One thing people need to understand about LTC Terry Lakin is that Lakin is prepared to deploy to AF if Obama would just produce the BC.

    But sir, you must understand that I am prepared to follow orders, if the army would just prove that the Illuminati Lizard men do not have control of the joint chiefs……

    Yeah sounds pretty ridiculous, doesn’t it….

  91. avatar
    Black Lion December 8, 2010 at 11:13 am #

    JoZeppy: Wow…just wow…I hope that was sarcasm….

    I couldn’t tell but it was hilarious either way….

  92. avatar
    SueDB December 8, 2010 at 11:15 am #

    dunstvangeet: A Military Pension is worth 50% of your final salary (plus COLAs) if you retire at 20 years.If you quit at 19 years, you get nothing.But anyways, in the Military (from what I’ve heard), if you get past 12 years, you’re basically guarenteed to get your 20.An O-5 (Lt. Colonel) with 18 would get $8675 a month in base pay, or about $104,100 a year.That would translate to roughly $52,050 a year for every year left in his life.So, Terry Lakin is 45 years old (born in 1965).If he was to retire at 20 years, that would be 48 years old.The average lifespan for a male is 75.6 years old.So, that’s 28.6 years, on average, that he is expected to live.So, take that, and not including COLAs, that would be worth $1,488,630.If you factor in COLAs, that would probably creep upto somewhere around $2 million.

    The military throws folks out all the time. When they got tough about weight standards in the 80’s several doctors didn’t believe that the Army would actually throw them out for being overweight. Wrong – it also cost them some money as they didn’t successfully complete their payback obligation.

    If you’re fat or fail your Physical Fitness test several time, you’re gone – period, done, over…bye bye.

    There is not auto at 12 years or any other time for that matter. If you end up staying at the rank of SGT you have to be booted or make SSG within 12 years – or you are gone. Typically a SSG can stay 20, but not any longer. The same applies to officers. If you are in grade too long, they boot you out.

  93. avatar
    Lupin December 8, 2010 at 11:15 am #

    Jason: Lakin is prepared to deploy to AF if Obama would just produce the BC.

    You little cretin. Do you understand that people with much better reasons to not deploy have been summarily shot or sentenced to hard labor for that type of behavior?

  94. avatar
    SueDB December 8, 2010 at 11:19 am #

    dunstvangeet: A Military Pension is worth 50% of your final salary (plus COLAs) if you retire at 20 years.If you quit at 19 years, you get nothing.But anyways, in the Military (from what I’ve heard), if you get past 12 years, you’re basically guarenteed to get your 20.An O-5 (Lt. Colonel) with 18 would get $8675 a month in base pay, or about $104,100 a year.That would translate to roughly $52,050 a year for every year left in his life.So, Terry Lakin is 45 years old (born in 1965).If he was to retire at 20 years, that would be 48 years old.The average lifespan for a male is 75.6 years old.So, that’s 28.6 years, on average, that he is expected to live.So, take that, and not including COLAs, that would be worth $1,488,630.If you factor in COLAs, that would probably creep upto somewhere around $2 million.

    The military throws folks out all the time. When they got tough about weight standards in the 80’s several doctors didn’t believe that the Army would actually throw them out for being overweight. Wrong – it also cost them some money as they didn’t successfully complete their payback obligation.

    If you’re fat or fail your Physical Fitness test several times, you’re gone – period, done, over…bye bye.

    There is not auto at 12 years or any other time for that matter. If you end up staying at the rank of SGT you have to be booted or make SSG within 12 years – or you are gone. Typically a SSG can stay 20, but not any longer. The same applies to officers. If you are in grade too long, they boot you out. One name for it was the Quality Management Program. Sub par performance garners the boot. Drug abuse garners the boot. DWI has been the kiss of death for many folks. If you have 20 or over and get a DWI ticket, time to retire w/i 6 mo usually. That gives the Army time to process all the Admin actions it takes to send someone out the door.

    There was an article recently about service folks using laxatives, diuretics and other meds to decrease their weight just before a weight in. You might get 10 pounds from a really strong diuretic.

  95. avatar
    Tarrant December 8, 2010 at 11:20 am #

    If someone could “re-obey” an order once something was proven to their satisfaction and that was legal, one could have the following situation:

    “Lieutenant, do this!”

    “Sorry Captain, I need to see your commission and promotion paperwork to prove you’re really a Captain.”

    …time passes…

    “Ok here you go. Now do this!”

    “Sorry, sir, I believe you’re legit, but what about the Lieutenant Colonel above you? Gotta see his too..”

    And all the way up to the Colonel, General, Joint Chiefs, Secretary of Defense, and President.

    You can’t do that. Just like you can’t rob a bank and say “Oh, well if they show me the law that makes it illegal, I’ll happily return the money, with no punishment to me of course, but until then the money is mine.”

    It doesn’t work like that. There’s a reason the Regulations for the military – which are Congressionally authorized, as noted by the Constitution – state that an order is lawful, period end, unless it is *facially* invalid. “Kill those civilians” is facially invalid. “Lie on this form that says it’s a felony to lie on”. Invalid. (butterdezillion often gives the Nazi example of “Turn on that oven” as something that would be legal if this were true neglecting the fact that if the oven is filled with people it’s most definitely invalid on its face).

    If it is not invalid on its face, then one follows it and then asks if it is legal later – Lakin did this and was told the orders were legal, yet still chose to press on. His loss.

  96. avatar
    SueDB December 8, 2010 at 11:24 am #

    Greg:
    While he’s a “flight surgeon,” he’s not a surgeon. He’s board certified in family medicine and occupational medicine. He has done a residency in family medicine and an internship in internal medicine.

    IRR He can make a heck of a lot of money in a large city as a flight surgeon contracting for an airline. EVERY person who has a pilot’s license of any kind has had at least a Category III physical that must be done by a qualified Flight Surgeon holding the certificates. The last time I had a flight physical, it wasn’t too much money, but LTC Lakin has additional qualifications that boost his net worth (paid for by the US Govt of course).

  97. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) December 8, 2010 at 11:25 am #

    Black Lion: MattS says:Tuesday, December 7, 2010 at 7:23 PMShe is the best attorney in this country. If I were facing the electric chair, I would want her on my side. Charles Lincoln said that she did her best work in a chair after all.If she is at the trial, this is a very good sign for Lakin. I bet Obama was sweating bullets when he heard the news.Go Lady Liberty!!!Jedi Pauly says:Tuesday, December 7, 2010 at 8:57 AMThank you Sharon for covering this event. You are doing a great job and service to America!———————-Mrs. Rondeau replies: The eyewitness coverage from Mr. Lichter was much appreciated.

    A whole 30 people? That’s not a rally that’s an AA meeting. They need to stop calling these things rallies. Anyway Matt is hillarious if Orly defended him he’d get slapped in the face with a hammer, waterboarded, and the electric chair repeatedly.

  98. avatar
    SueDB December 8, 2010 at 11:28 am #

    gorefan:
    Lakin had a responsiblity to do the due diligence necessary before making such a life altering descision.Instead he expect everyone else to answer his questions.And he based those questions on internet rumors.If he had been serious about the truth, ten minutes on the internet would have provided him with enough information to show that the birthers were nuts.He made his choice.He should be willing to live with it.

    It depends on where he spends that 10 minutes – on the plethora of birfer sites or on a real site…such as NBCs.

  99. avatar
    Daniel December 8, 2010 at 12:11 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): A whole 30 people? That’s not a rally that’s an AA meeting.

    Plus there’s the obligatory quadrupling of any actual number for any birther gathering. Therefore the actual number would be…. 7.5 people attending the rally.

    Wait… “.5”? half a person? Maybe Orly did show up after all…

  100. avatar
    Sef December 8, 2010 at 12:26 pm #

    SueDB:
    It depends on where he spends that 10 minutes – on the plethora of birfer sites or on a real site…such as NBCs.

    That depends on what answer he wants. If he wants to have his ideas validated he would go to birther sites & ignore sites such as NBC’s. If he had an open mind he wouldn’t be in this mess in the first place.

  101. avatar
    dunstvangeet December 8, 2010 at 1:14 pm #

    Jason: However, Lakin’s BC provides a hell of alot more information than Obama’s such as hospital name and the birth doc.Lakin’s BC definitely establishes he was born where he claims.Obama’s BC lists no doc or hospital.

    However, this isn’t about Lakin’s birth certificate. It’s about Obama’s, which he has shown.

    Obama’s birth certificate has virtually the same information as mine does (from the state of Oregon), and the only 2 that I can find of me have virtually the same information as Obama’s. Only difference is that instead of Parent’s race, mine has the birthplace of my parents. I’ve been able to find 2 birth certificates for me. One of them is from around 1985. One of them is from around 2000. Both of them have the same information on them. There is no doctor on mine, there is no hospital. The hospital, in fact, that I was born at is now the U.S. Headquarters for Adidas.

    I’ve used this birth certificate to obtain a drivers license, get a U.S. Passport, register for little league, and do anything else that I’ve needed a birth certificate for.

    And since we don’t have this information and the COLB that Obama possesses could have easily been obtained even if Obama was NOT born in Hawaii given the 1961 circumstances, Obama’s birthplace remains in question.

    No, it doesn’t. You have absolutely no proof that someone could easily obtain one from Hawaii that says that they were born in Hawaii, when they weren’t. If it was easy, then you should be able to show one example of someone in the 1960s (after 1959 when Hawaii became a state) that got a birth certificate that says that they were born in Hawaii, when they were not. There is absolutely no doubt about Obama’s place of birth, as far as the State of Hawaii, and the National Government are concerned.

    Oh, by the way. The Little League World Series U.S. Champions are from Hawaii. Every one of them used a birth certificate that looks exactly like Obama’s to register for little league. None of them had the Doctor on them, and none of them had the hospital on them. Are you saying that their citizenship is in doubt on every single one of them? This same little league won the World Series in 2008 (different players, of course). Seems as the little league is behind the times in actually knowing what you know…

  102. avatar
    dunstvangeet December 8, 2010 at 1:17 pm #

    SueDB:
    The military throws folks out all the time.When they got tough about weight standards in the 80β€²s several doctors didn’t believe that the Army would actually throw them out for being overweight.Wrong – it also cost them some money as they didn’t successfully complete their payback obligation.If you’re fat or fail your Physical Fitness test several time, you’re gone – period, done, over…bye bye.There is not auto at 12 years or any other time for that matter.If you end up staying at the rank of SGT you have to be booted or make SSG within 12 years – or you are gone.Typically a SSG can stay 20, but not any longer.The same applies to officers.If you are in grade too long, they boot you out.

    I had heard that basically, if you make it past 12 years, you’re almost guarenteed the 20, unless you do something really stupid, as long as you remain fit for duty. Lakin falls under the first exception.

    I was wrong.

  103. avatar
    Patrick McKinnion December 8, 2010 at 2:13 pm #

    gorefan: What I don’t understand is the comment that the President hasn’t produced his BC when in fact he has.It’s just that LtC Lakin just doesn’t accept that BC.Which I find funny, because LtC Lakin put his own BC online and it has no signatures, only typed names (for the doctor, registrar and even his mother).So someone whose own BC is outside the norm, is questioning someone else’s BC.Strange.http://www.safeguardourconstitution.com/images/stories/documents/apf02-tlakincertificateoflivebirth.pdf

    More than that, Lakin posted online a Certificate of Live Birth. And the birthers will go on and on about how a COLB isn’t a “real” birth certificate……

  104. avatar
    Patrick McKinnion December 8, 2010 at 2:17 pm #

    ImaObot: certified copy of BO’s COLB from the HDoH will have the word “Amended” printed on it.

    And what brings you to THAT conclusion??

    Which brings about the question of why did Obama forge a document, post it on FTS and inform the public hehas posted his COLB on the website.Thus, a controversy worthy of a full investigation is begun.

    The only “controversy” has been with people who refuse to accept facts and reality, and cling to ever-complex conspiracy theories to explain away those facts.

    What’s this? Your adoption was annulled? How terrible. Tell us all about it.You renounced your what?

    No proof of an adoption ever having taken place. And under both US and Indonesian laws, Obama couldn’t have renounced his US citizenship as a minor or have been granted Indonesian citizenship.

  105. avatar
    BatGuano December 8, 2010 at 2:58 pm #

    Jason: One thing people need to understand about LTC Terry Lakin is that Lakin is prepared to deploy to AF if Obama would just produce the BC.

    jason, lakin also expressed doubts in his video because obama did not have two US citizen parents. how would producing the BC change that ? what would then be required to satisfy lakin’s curiousity ? i assume you believe he wouldn’t have to follow any orders during this time, correct?

    also did lakin mention indonesian citizenship in the video? pakistan? any thoughts on those subjects jason?

  106. avatar
    mikeyes December 8, 2010 at 3:26 pm #

    Here is the video of the McCain “rally” in support of LTC Lakin. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUE7GUQvi2g&feature=player_embedded#!)

    I only count about 19 people, perhaps there were others on the other side of the street, but it appears that this was a very monolithic** group of people. Everyone was very polite.

    ** Old and white, like me. I have that same stars and stripes shirt too. I’m sure they all voted for Senator McCain.

  107. avatar
    mikeyes December 8, 2010 at 3:36 pm #

    BTW, the McCain rally video is by the same guy who also filmed this screed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdeuU9GdrjM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL) which depicts “chemtrails” from aircraft that he is convinced is full of deadly toxins whose purpose is to “dumb down” the populace in order to keep them from rebelling.

    Sounds reasonable to me.

  108. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) December 8, 2010 at 3:51 pm #

    mikeyes: Here is the video of the McCain “rally” in support of LTC Lakin. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUE7GUQvi2g&feature=player_embedded#!) I only count about 19 people, perhaps there were others on the other side of the street, but it appears that this was a very monolithic** group of people. Everyone was very polite.** Old and white, like me. I have that same stars and stripes shirt too. I’m sure they all voted for Senator McCain.

    But Mikeyes you’re counting them wrong, you forgot to count their sock puppets as people too

  109. avatar
    BatGuano December 8, 2010 at 5:46 pm #

    mikeyes: I only count about 19 people, perhaps there were others on the other side of the street,

    interesting. 19-30 people is roughly 0.0005% of the metro phoenix area population ( 4.5million ). if we take that number and apply it on a national level then we’d have 1,650 birthers that are passionate enough to protest. not sure how many of those are passionate enough to start a revolution but….. the numbers aren’t looking good.

  110. avatar
    BatGuano December 8, 2010 at 5:52 pm #

    if the birthers are looking for a meeting place, the scottrade center in saint louis seats exactly 1,650. ozzy osbourne is there this friday. could be a fun way to start the overthrow of the government.

  111. avatar
    Slartibartfast December 8, 2010 at 6:17 pm #

    BatGuano:
    interesting. 19-30 people is roughly 0.0005% of the metro phoenix area population ( 4.5million ). if we take that number and apply it on a national level then we’d have 1,650 birthers that are passionate enough to protest. not sure how many of those are passionate enough to start a revolution but….. the numbers aren’t looking good.

    I could believe that there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000 hardcore birthers in the country (people that would go to a protest in their area). It would be interesting to try to estimate the demographics of commitment level amongst the birthers by looking at rally attendance and blog traffic. How many ‘brithers’ are only willing to answer a poll or comment on a blog and how many are chafing because they haven’t gotten to try ‘2nd Amendment remedies’ to get the usurping mofo out of the Oval Office yet?

    BatGuano: if the birthers are looking for a meeting place, the scottrade center in saint louis seats exactly 1,650. ozzy osbourne is there this friday. could be a fun way to start the overthrow of the government.

    If you’re going, be careful you don’t get your head bitten off (we all know about Ozzy and bats…). πŸ˜‰

  112. avatar
    Daniel December 8, 2010 at 6:28 pm #

    Slartibartfast: If you’re going, be careful you don’t get your head bitten off (we all know about Ozzy and bats…). πŸ˜‰

    Ozzy and Birthers….. opposite ends of the bat issue….

  113. avatar
    Rickey December 8, 2010 at 6:59 pm #

    SueDB:
    If you end up staying at the rank of SGT you have to be booted or make SSG within 12 years – or you are gone.Typically a SSG can stay 20, but not any longer.The same applies to officers.If you are in grade too long, they boot you out.

    Back in they day that was known as “up or out” (and probably still is). I knew a Lieutenant Commander in the Navy who was sent packing after he was passed over for Commander too many times.

    My recollection is that enlisted sailors could make it to 20 years as an E-6, but not as an E-5.

  114. avatar
    Daniel December 8, 2010 at 7:11 pm #

    I know a Lt Commander who was booted to shore after displaying gross incompetence, misusing ship’s funds, and being cashiered out to a very successful civilian career as a certified loony…..

    Sure enough, he’s a birther too….

  115. avatar
    gorefan December 8, 2010 at 8:01 pm #

    mikeyes: Here is the video of the McCain “rally” in support of LTC Lakin.

    I liked when the one guy introduces himself to Sen. McCain’s office manager as “a congressman from the Continental Congress”. I wonder how soon after they left, did she throw their crap in the trash can.

  116. avatar
    James M December 8, 2010 at 8:24 pm #

    gorefan: I liked when the one guy introduces himself to Sen. McCain’s office manager as “a congressman from the Continental Congress”. I wonder how soon after they left, did she throw their crap in the trash can.

    I thought that was hilarious. What’s the Continental Congress? Can I run?

  117. avatar
    BatGuano December 8, 2010 at 9:10 pm #

    gorefan: I liked when the one guy introduces himself to Sen. McCain’s office manager as “a congressman from the Continental Congress”.

    if i remember correctly he also quickly tossed in “…voted in all 50 states !”.

    just like American Idol !!!!!!!!

    ” Senator Aikens, will you kindly yield the floor to the honorable Ms Clarkson from the great state of OMG! “.

  118. avatar
    Black Lion December 8, 2010 at 10:46 pm #

    mikeyes: Here is the video of the McCain “rally” in support of LTC Lakin. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUE7GUQvi2g&feature=player_embedded#!) I only count about 19 people, perhaps there were others on the other side of the street, but it appears that this was a very monolithic** group of people. Everyone was very polite.** Old and white, like me. I have that same stars and stripes shirt too. I’m sure they all voted for Senator McCain.

    Those people wouldn’t have voted for Obama if their lives depended on it. And McCain’s office manager filed that in the circular filing cabinet under the desk as soon as those wingnuts left…

  119. avatar
    noseitall December 9, 2010 at 12:52 am #

    .

    Well let’s see… this case will be tried in military court, with all of the judges being military officers.

    The lawsuit challenges President Obama’s eligibility requirement to hold the office of President (natural-born citizen).

    The President has not, or will not, produce a Birth Certificate, only a “Certification of Live Birth”. He has spent millions of dollars hiding his birth certificate.

    All the military judges have President Obama as their boss, as Commander-In-Chief.

    Obviously, the military judges have a conflict of interest in this case. They should recuse themselves, and this case should be heard in a Federal Court.

    .

  120. avatar
    G December 9, 2010 at 1:25 am #

    mikeyes: BTW, the McCain rally video is by the same guy who also filmed this screed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdeuU9GdrjM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL) which depicts “chemtrails” from aircraft that he is convinced is full of deadly toxins whose purpose is to “dumb down” the populace in order to keep them from rebelling.Sounds reasonable to me.

    LOL! Thanks for the video link. Like just about all birther videos…the actual footage differs greatly from their claims.

    First of all, I love how they claim all these people constantly “honking” their horns for them…. per the video, the ONLY evidence of any honking whatsoever at all is by the birther nut who is shooting the video.

    Second, the good old “birther math” seems to be at it again. Even their sad statistics of 30 people at their rally seems to be a rough doubling of the sparse gathering shown in the video. Not even the sad number of 10 birthers brave enough to go into the Senator’s offices seems to hold up. The video clearly shows only 6 total people in the McCain office (including the birther taking the video), which is further backed up by them all introducing themselves to the lady and a total of 6 voices being heard. As they said it was the same group (and we pretty much just see the same old faces) at Kyl’s office… well…that is still 6.

    So, birthers can’t even count to 6 properly…and once again, their sad 10 claim seems to be a near doubling of reality.

    The birther crowd itself was so stereotypical of what you expect a birther to look like that it feels more like a parody. I bet the Senator’s staff at first thought that a local AARP chapter had come to visit.

    Obviously, a Senator is supposed to represent all of his constituents and therefore the staff are well trained to be as polite and responsive as they can, no matter how loony the visitors come off. The whole tone and demeanor of the staff lady at McCain’s office conveyed a pretty clear message of trying to politely tolerate their visit and get them to continue on their way as quickly as possible.

    I’m sure it was the same at Kyl’s office. I got a laugh when the one old guy seemed surprised that Kyl’s staff took some offense to their minor threats and accusations that the Senator was a coward if he didn’t do what the birthers wanted… LOL! These people really are completely clueless when they offend, aren’t they.

    Sharon Rondeau’s account of the whole thing made it sound enough like yet another EPIC FAIL on its own. For the video to show that even that pathetic account was a gross exaggeration of their “success”….wow….just wow… these folks really are in PUMA territory now.

  121. avatar
    James M December 9, 2010 at 1:30 am #

    The President has not, or will not, produce a Birth Certificate, only a “Certification of Live Birth”.

    Your premise here appears to be that the Certification of Live Birth does not present a prima facie case that President Obama was born in Honolulu in 1961. On what do you base this premise?

    He has spent millions of dollars hiding his birth certificate.

    On what do you base this premise? Do you have evidence to support the claim? Has he spent two million or ten million? What, specifically, did this money buy, and how did it achieve the end result of “hiding his birth certificiate?”

    All the military judges have President Obama as their boss, as Commander-In-Chief. Obviously, the military judges have a conflict of interest in this case. They should recuse themselves, and this case should be heard in a Federal Court..

    Well that’s an interesting theory. Good luck with it.

  122. avatar
    Daniel December 9, 2010 at 1:30 am #

    noseitall: . Well let’s see… this case will be tried in military court, with all of the judges being military officers. The lawsuit challenges President Obama’s eligibility requirement to hold the office of President (natural-born citizen). The President has not, or will not, produce a Birth Certificate, only a “Certification of Live Birth”. He has spent millions of dollars hiding his birth certificate. All the military judges have President Obama as their boss, as Commander-In-Chief. Obviously, the military judges have a conflict of interest in this case. They should recuse themselves, and this case should be heard in a Federal Court..

    Whny not read back a few pages before you open your mouth and make a fool of yourself. WE’ve bneen over all those fallacies a hundred times or more.

    No, you’re not new, and you’re not clever.

  123. avatar
    G December 9, 2010 at 1:33 am #

    noseitall: . Well let’s see… this case will be tried in military court, with all of the judges being military officers. The lawsuit challenges President Obama’s eligibility requirement to hold the office of President (natural-born citizen). The President has not, or will not, produce a Birth Certificate, only a “Certification of Live Birth”. He has spent millions of dollars hiding his birth certificate. All the military judges have President Obama as their boss, as Commander-In-Chief. Obviously, the military judges have a conflict of interest in this case. They should recuse themselves, and this case should be heard in a Federal Court..

    TOTAL FAIL.

    What lawsuit are you talking about? The Lakin case is simply court martial charges against an officer for intentionally missing a movement and disobeying direct orders. It is not a “lawsuit” by any means. It is a trial.

    Furthermore, those actual court martial charges have nothing to do with the President nor his birth certificate – such things are completely irrelevant to what Lakin has been charged with. The judge already verified that and made that point quite clear back in the summer.

    Finally, failure of a military officer to follow military orders of deployment is SOLELY a military matter, to be handled within the military justice system. The federal courts nor civilian courts have anything to do with this case.

    Obviously, you either haven’t been paying attention or simply have no idea what you are talking about as you are wrong on just about every thing you said. Do some research next time before you come across so foolish and uninformed.

  124. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 9, 2010 at 1:40 am #

    noseitall: The President has not, or will not, produce a Birth Certificate, only a “Certification of Live Birth”. He has spent millions of dollars hiding his birth certificate.

    It’s sad to see these brainwashed people coming in day after day reciting their “only a certification” mantra. I don’t suppose they have ever looked at Obama’s Certification of Live Birth for themselves, or else they would have seen the phrase “THIS CERTIFICATE” down at the bottom and realized the nonsense of what they are saying.

  125. avatar
    Daniel December 9, 2010 at 1:44 am #

    Remember the kindergarten yard?

    “I know something you don’t know”. “I know something you don’t know”. “I know something you don’t know”. “I know something you don’t know”.

    That’s why these people keep coming here all proud of themselves and thinking their going to teach us a thing or two. They never grew out of needing to be “special”.

  126. avatar
    noseitall December 9, 2010 at 1:52 am #

    #####################

    The fact remains that the core of this case revolves around the argument that Obama may not be a natural-born citizen, which, if true, might mean that the officer’s order to deploy is invalid.

    And the fact remains that “The President has not, or will not, produce a Birth Certificate, only a “Certification of Live Birth””. (Can any of you geniuses answer why Obama won’t show his Birth Certificate? Hello… still waiting… a real answer please, not just a nasty comment… why not?

    And the fact remains that the military judges’ careers might be harmed if they rule against the Commander-In-Chief (if in fact he is). Or at least, there is that possibility, which might influence their decision.

    Good night, liberal wimps. I will check back tomorrow to see your replies. That is, if you can actually provide answers and not just rant.

    #####################

  127. avatar
    James M December 9, 2010 at 1:59 am #

    noseitall: Can any of you geniuses answer why Obama won’t show his Birth Certificate?

    If you can prove that he has a different document in his possession that he could show, then you may speculate as to why he chooses not to show it. However, there is no evidence that he has a different document, or that any different document would even be available.

  128. avatar
    misha December 9, 2010 at 2:09 am #

    noseitall: I will check back tomorrow to see your replies. That is, if you can actually provide answers and not just rant.

    Good point. I found an authentic Kenya BC (Obama’s?), which may help you.

    Thanks for visiting.

  129. avatar
    dunstvangeet December 9, 2010 at 2:33 am #

    noseitall: ##################### The fact remains that the core of this case revolves around the argument that Obama may not be a natural-born citizen, which, if true, might mean that the officer’s order to deploy is invalid.

    Actually, no it doesn’t. Even if it is proven tomorrow that Obama was ineligible to be President for one reason or another, the orders to deploy would still be valid. Research the de facto officer doctorine. I’ll give you a start: Ryder v. U.S.

    The de facto officer doctrine confers validity upon acts performed by a person acting under the color of official title even though it is later discovered that the legality of that person’s appointment or election to office is deficient.

    So, the order would be valid if Obama was declared tomorrow that he was ineligible. That means that Obama’s eligibility is not relevant to the case.

    And the fact remains that “The President has not, or will not, produce a Birth Certificate, only a “Certification of Live Birth”.

    This is like you saying to someone “you haven’t provided a driver’s license. You’ve provided a license to drive. It says so on your license.” It’s an issue of sematics, and as Obama has provided a document that would be held in any court in the land as Prima Facie Evidence that Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, why should he need to provide another document in order to satisfy the whims of a bunch of people that have already decided that no matter what he does, he’s not eligible to be President of the United States?

    Oh, and I love your theory. You think that Lakin should argue something that even if he’s correct, means that he’s guilty as sin. Maybe Lakin should just save the court’s time, and plead guilty. Because your proposed defense, even if it does work, still means that Lakin is guilty of missing movement, and disobeying an order.

  130. avatar
    gorefan December 9, 2010 at 2:38 am #

    noseitall: And the fact remains that the military judges’ careers might be harmed if they rule against the Commander-In-Chief (if in fact he is). Or at least, there is that possibility, which might influence their decision.

    You are aware aren’t you that Lakin’s defense attorney says that the judge in the case made the correct decision?

    The COLB that the President has shown is more then any other President or Presidential candidate has shown. And is in fact, a legal document showing place of birth as Honolulu, Hawaii. And is the only proof of U.S. birth necessary to obtain a passport.

    The fact, that you don’t accept it, is irrelevant.

  131. avatar
    Daniel December 9, 2010 at 2:42 am #

    noseitall: The fact remains… The fact remains… The fact remains… The fact remains…

    Your basic problem is that you are confusing the word “fact” with supposition drawn from conjecture arising from speculation.

    None of the “facts” you’ve stated are at all facts, and none of those suppositions are new. We’ve been through it all before with every other birther loser that thinks he knows better than every legal and constitutional expert in the country.

    Here are the real facts, which I have no doubt you won’t al;low yourself the hear.

    Obama HAS shown his BC, and he’s been validated by the only body authorized by the Constitution to do so; Congress.

    Obama’s eligibility is irelevant to Lakin’s case. The order to deploy was legal, even if Obama wasn’t eligible. You don’t get to disobey orders, as a soldier, based on “what-if”.

    Military Judges are exempt from career action based on how they rule, so long as they rule in good faith. In fact, basing a ruling on anything other than law and evidence is a sure way to end your career.

    I am not a liberal or a wimp. I’m a conservative who voted republican all my life, and wiull likely continue to do so. I’m also a retired combat infantry officer.You’re feeble attempt at ad himinem is as effective and efficacious as your feeble attempt to magically transform your birther delusions into fact by force of will alone.

    Your need to be “special” is not our concern.

  132. avatar
    isittrue December 9, 2010 at 3:07 am #

    An opinion I read the other day said that the Republicans have informed Barack Obama that in January, they are willing to use their majority in the House of Representatives to subpoena Obama’s birth certificate from Hawaii. And that Obama knows that will prove that he is not a natural-born citizen eligible to be president.

    He also stated that Obama has agreed to go along with the Republican agenda for the next 2 years in order to avoid a constitutional crisis over the presidency. Also, Obama had to agree not to run for a second term.

    Do you think that might be true, and that Obama caving on the tax increases on the rich is just the first step in trying to hide his ineligibility to be president?

  133. avatar
    misha December 9, 2010 at 3:17 am #

    isittrue: Do you think that might be true

    Yes! I found an authentic Kenya BC (Obama’s?). Hope this helps.

    Thanks for visiting.

  134. avatar
    dunstvangeet December 9, 2010 at 3:18 am #

    isittrue: An opinion I read the other day said that the Republicans have informed Barack Obama that in January, they are willing to use their majority in the House of Representatives to subpoena Obama’s birth certificate from Hawaii.

    Why would they do that, when they can just take a look at the one that has been there for the last 2 years? Furthermore the document that they’d recieve from the State of Hawaii would look exactly like the one that has been posted on the Internet for the last 2 years. Would Republicans be so stupid to look so partisian that they cave into conspiracy theories that have no basis in fact? I’d love for Republicans to do this. Democrats will then be able to point at Republicans and say, “Instead of working together to solve your problems, the Republicans decided to use their time to chase an lunatic conspiracy theory down the rabbit hole, and use their time to be partisian, rather than working with us to solve the Nation’s problems.”

    And that Obama knows that will prove that he is not a natural-born citizen eligible to be president.

    Actually, all that would do is produce another document that looks exactly the same as the one that he’s had on display for 2 years. It will have on it: “City of Birth: Honolulu, Island of Birth: Oahu, County of Birth: Honolulu”. It will further prove that he’s born in the United States.

  135. avatar
    Lupin December 9, 2010 at 3:48 am #

    isittrue: An opinion I read the other day said that the Republicans have informed Barack Obama that in January, they are willing to use their majority in the House of Representatives to subpoena Obama’s birth certificate from Hawaii. And that Obama knows that will prove that he is not a natural-born citizen eligible to be president.

    He also stated that Obama has agreed to go along with the Republican agenda for the next 2 years in order to avoid a constitutional crisis over the presidency. Also, Obama had to agree not to run for a second term.

    Do you think that might be true, and that Obama caving on the tax increases on the rich is just the first step in trying to hide his ineligibility to be president?

    Yes it is absolutely true. I even heard a rumor that Obama plans to have all the birthers rounded up and anally probed by little grey aliens.

  136. avatar
    Daniel December 9, 2010 at 4:10 am #

    isittrue: An opinion I read the other day said that

    An opionion I read the other day said that the earth was actually a flat disk and that the scientific community was in on a world wide conspiracy to create the lie that the earth is a sphere.

    Paying attention to the opinions of morons makes very little sense, unless you are also a moron.

  137. avatar
    AnotherBird December 9, 2010 at 5:08 am #

    isittrue: An opinion I read the other day said that the Republicans have informed Barack Obama that in January, they are willing to use their majority in the House of Representatives to subpoena Obama’s birth certificate from Hawaii. ….Do you think that might be true,…

    Is there an echo chamber or something? There is a reason why it is call an opinion.

    Listen carefully. Hawaii has already stated that they have Obama’s original birth record.

    And that is where the opinion that you read ends.

  138. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny December 9, 2010 at 5:36 am #

    mikeyes: The two million dollars was an estimate assuming he lived to be 80.There are other less well known benefits including travel and the ability to use military facilities that add value to a military pension that he will lose.

    The only judge the Birthers need, is Anne Robinson.

    “Mister Berg, you are the weakest link. Goodbye!”
    (comment by Berg in the dugout: “I was not the weakest link. They all ganged up on me because I am the only one who does not believe this Vattel nonsense.”)

    “Miss Spears, you are the weakest link. Goodbye!”
    (comment by Britney:”My fans are going to be so impressed I survived the first round. Though I do not understand why Anne did not allow me to sing.”)

    “Mr Donofrio, you are the weakest link. Goodbye!”

    “Mrs, er, or Mr Squeeky Fromm, you are the weakest link. Goodbye!”
    (comment by Squeeky: “What a wonderful experience meeting the terrible Anne Robinson in the flesh. I think I will write a haiku about it)

    “Mr Apuzzo, you are the weakest link. Goodbye!”

    “Mr Ankeny, you are the weakest link. Goodbye!”
    (Ankeny comment: “I think Strunk will be next to go. He’s too good.”)

    “Mr Strunk, you are the weakest link. Goodbye!”
    (comment by Strunk:”Anne is right. Those two deliberately voted off the one who was the strongest link throughout the game. It is all part of a Jesuit conspiracy, they do not want me to win.”

    “And this means, Mr Lakin – you are tonight’s winner and you go away with the prize, a two million dollar fine to be signed into Mr Sidamoor Vale’s bank account. Mrs Taitz, you leave with NOTHING. Join us again next week for The Weakest Link. Goodbye!”

    Comment by Mr Lakin. “Mrs Hemenway is going to be so pleased. After all, she is the one who signed me on to the show.”

    Comment by Mrs Taitz:”Though I am a bit disanointed, I am glat that the price was won by a reel patriot. I tank my supportres for providing me with free air miles to come to London. And Mr Land, for handing me a 20,000 dollar fine to have a pre-taste of victory.”

  139. avatar
    The Magic M December 9, 2010 at 7:44 am #

    > He also stated that Obama has agreed to go along with the Republican agenda for the next 2 years in order to avoid a constitutional crisis over the presidency. Also, Obama had to agree not to run for a second term.

    So the conspiracy religion is already preparing for the 100% likely case that their prediction that the GOP would “issue a barrage of subpoenas in the eligibility issue” after winning the November elections will not come true.
    It’s like “I have a perfectly logical reason why the world will not end on January 2nd, 2011, as I originally predicted, but 7 years later, which proves my predictions were correct from the start”.

  140. avatar
    G December 9, 2010 at 10:03 am #

    isittrue: Do you think that might be true, and that Obama caving on the tax increases on the rich is just the first step in trying to hide his ineligibility to be president?

    No.

    Stop being such a gullible gossip follower. You only make yourself look foolish.

  141. avatar
    G December 9, 2010 at 10:05 am #

    noseitall: ##################### The fact remains that the core of this case revolves around the argument that Obama may not be a natural-born citizen, which, if true, might mean that the officer’s order to deploy is invalid. And the fact remains that “The President has not, or will not, produce a Birth Certificate, only a “Certification of Live Birth””. (Can any of you geniuses answer why Obama won’t show his Birth Certificate? Hello… still waiting… a real answer please, not just a nasty comment… why not? And the fact remains that the military judges’ careers might be harmed if they rule against the Commander-In-Chief (if in fact he is). Or at least, there is that possibility, which might influence their decision. Good night, liberal wimps. I will check back tomorrow to see your replies. That is, if you can actually provide answers and not just rant. #####################

    You really need to learn the english language better. You keep using the word “fact” to describe baseless nonsense. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about and just make yourself look foolish.

  142. avatar
    isittrue December 9, 2010 at 12:18 pm #

    I wonder if a Freedom of Information Act request to Congress to see Obama’s birth certificate (which was supposedly supplied to Congress) would be successful? Not just the “Certification of Live Birth” that has been posted, but the actual birth certificate. Surely they would honor that request, right?

    Or if the FOIA does not apply to Congress, perhaps they would still comply with a request.

    Especially after January.

    Hmm…

  143. avatar
    Black Lion December 9, 2010 at 12:26 pm #

    isittrue: I wonder if a Freedom of Information Act request to Congress to see Obama’s birth certificate (which was supposedly supplied to Congress) would be successful? Not just the “Certification of Live Birth” that has been posted, but the actual birth certificate. Surely they would honor that request, right?Or if the FOIA does not apply to Congress, perhaps they would still comply with a request.Especially after January.Hmm…

    So I can requst through a freedom of information act your private birth certificate records? You think? Wow…The force is definately not with you. If you really think that a freedom of information act can really get private information like someone’s birth certificate released I have a bridge to sell you in San Francisco. How many time must you wingnuts be told that there is no long form BC? There is only the COLB. I am begining to wonder if being stupid is a requirement for being a birther.

  144. avatar
    BatGuano December 9, 2010 at 12:32 pm #

    isittrue: Not just the “Certification of Live Birth” that has been posted,….

    what does the state that you live in issue for proof of birth ?

  145. avatar
    G December 9, 2010 at 12:38 pm #

    isittrue: I wonder if a Freedom of Information Act request to Congress to see Obama’s birth certificate (which was supposedly supplied to Congress) would be successful? Not just the “Certification of Live Birth” that has been posted, but the actual birth certificate. Surely they would honor that request, right?Or if the FOIA does not apply to Congress, perhaps they would still comply with a request.Especially after January.Hmm…

    No. FAIL.

    FOIA applies to GOVERNMENT documents, not personal records, which are protected by privacy laws.

  146. avatar
    isittrue December 9, 2010 at 12:44 pm #

    Sooo… Obama still won’t provide the public his actual Birth Certificate (not Certificate of Live Birth).

    That’s the bottom line, isn’t it?

    Why didn’t you just say so?

  147. avatar
    sfjeff December 9, 2010 at 12:46 pm #

    “I wonder if a Freedom of Information Act request to Congress to see Obama’s birth certificate (which was supposedly supplied to Congress) would be successful? Not just the “Certification of Live Birth” that has been posted, but the actual birth certificate. Surely they would honor that request, right?”

    Well, I am no expert on Freedom of Information Act requests, but doesn’t it only apply to documents a government agency has? Since Congress doesn’t have President Obama’s birth certificate, I think you would just get a short note saying that they have no such document.

    But perhaps you are thinking again that Congress might subpoena the State of Hawaii for a President Obama’s birth certificate? Again, I am no lawyer, but I think a State can ignore a Congressional subpoena.

    Now Congress could subpoena an individual- like Dr. Fukino- and she could come to Congress and testify that she has seen President Obama’s original birth certificate on file in Hawaii in accordance with state law, and that she has verified that the birth certificate shows that President Obama was born in Hawaii, and therefore, as everyone knows, is a natural born citizen.

    But I am guessing that won’t be the answer you are looking for.

    “Especially after January”

    Oh I think it will be interesting. I am guessing the Republican House will ignore the Birther issue, but on the off chance they do start issueing subpoena’s, I expect there it to be a field day for pundits pointing to the Tea Party agenda and asking why the Repubs new big priority is suddenly the President’s birth certificate- instead of the budget, or the deficit or earmarks.

  148. avatar
    sfjeff December 9, 2010 at 12:50 pm #

    “Sooo… Obama still won’t provide the public his actual Birth Certificate (not Certificate of Live Birth). That’s the bottom line, isn’t it?”

    According to the State of Hawaii both a Certificate of Live Birth(the original birth certificate, which I think you are looking for) and the Certification of Live Birth are both actual Birth Ceritificates.

    If you request a copy of a birth certificate from Hawaii, you get a Certification of Live Birth

    Thats what Candidate Obama did. What he posted is an image of a valid Hawaii Birth Certificate

    “Why didn’t you just say so?”

    Because it isn’t true. I could say you refuse to bring Santa Claus to me and that would be as equally true as your fact. President Obama hasn’t refused to produce anything- he produced a valid Hawaii BC.

    Birthers just don’t like it because it doesn’t say ‘made in Kenya’ on it.

  149. avatar
    Bovril December 9, 2010 at 12:51 pm #

    So “isisttrue” care to share which of the states in the US you were born in..?

    If not feel free to order a BC from your birth state and see if you get one of them there mystical “long forms”

    Come back when you have it and tell us all the useful, Constitutionally required for running as President items it has on it.

  150. avatar
    G December 9, 2010 at 1:22 pm #

    isittrue: Sooo… Obama still won’t provide the public his actual Birth Certificate (not Certificate of Live Birth).That’s the bottom line, isn’t it?Why didn’t you just say so?

    Again, you FAIL.

    First of all, there is no requirement that the president “owes” the public any bit of his personal information. You can wish to see it all you want, but you simply aren’t entitled to it.

    Second, he DID, of his own campaign’s chosing, provide the PUBLIC with access to see his birth certificate in the only sensible way one can show a document to the public these days – it was scanned and posted on his website for anyone to see. Those who don’t have internet…well, many news shows have repeatedly covered the issue when it was brought up and showed a copy of that exact same document image.

    Besides, Obama is the ONLY presidential candidate who even took that step to show his birth certificate to the public. You can’t show any where in prior history that a presidential candidate has offered up that info for the public to see before. So, he was being more open with his personal information that he had to be or anyone ever has before and all you do is complain about it because you personally don’t like him.

    You are just a whining and unhappy ingrate.

  151. avatar
    Mike December 9, 2010 at 1:44 pm #

    isittrue: Sooo… Obama still won’t provide the public his actual Birth Certificate (not Certificate of Live Birth).That’s the bottom line, isn’t it?Why didn’t you just say so?

    That is his actual birth certificate, you numpty.

  152. avatar
    Sef December 9, 2010 at 2:07 pm #

    Mike:
    That is his actual birth certificate, you numpty.

    These birther numbnuts just don’t get it that the ONLY required info of Obama’s birth as regards eligibility are name, place & date. The COLB provided that & more. For the relevant purposes they don’t need anything else.

  153. avatar
    James M December 9, 2010 at 2:09 pm #

    isittrue: Sooo… Obama still won’t provide the public his actual Birth Certificate (not Certificate of Live Birth).That’s the bottom line, isn’t it?Why didn’t you just say so?

    There are a couple of points that are very important and seem to get lost whenever this dialog begins:

    1. President Obama was never required to provide any birth record to the public. He released his birth record, of his own volition. For this, he was rewarded with increased hostility and irrational skepticism from his detractors. Clearly he doesn’t care about this.

    2. He has not actually been asked to produce this or any other birth record. There is a hidden reality assumption among the birthers that he has been asked to provide a birth certificate (and has therefore “refused” to do so.) But there is no evidence that the request has even been made, even though nobody who would make such a request is entitled to have the request granted.

    3. Where the birthers, and those who enjoy dialog with the birthers, participate in the discussion on a daily basis, it is extremely unlikely that President Obama has given the issue one millisecond of thought. He doubtless has other things on his mind, what with his high-pressure 24/7 job and all.

  154. avatar
    JoZeppy December 9, 2010 at 2:19 pm #

    isittrue: I wonder if a Freedom of Information Act request to Congress to see Obama’s birth certificate (which was supposedly supplied to Congress) would be successful?

    It would fail for several reasons. FOIA does not apply to Congress. Even if it did, FOIA does not apply personal documents of a living individual. And not the least of which, release of the document would violate privacy laws.

    isittrue: Not just the “Certification of Live Birth” that has been posted, but the actual birth certificate.

    As has been said, what was posted is an actual birth certificate. Anywhere the President would have been required to provide an official birth certificate, that is the form he would use. It is the current form that Hawaii uses when it issues birth certificates.

    isittrue: Surely they would honor that request, right?

    Surely they would not. And even if they did, they would simply release a copy of the document the President posted on the internet.

    isittrue: Or if the FOIA does not apply to Congress, perhaps they would still comply with a request.

    Only in your wild and wet birther dreams. And again, even if they did, all they would have is the exact same document you’ve already seen, so why do you care?

    isittrue: Especially after January.
    Hmm…

    And why exactly would it matter when? Do you really think the Republican Congress is going to be so eager to be associated with the looney right conspiracy wing of their party? Sure way to po the moderate independants (and even the ever shrinking not so looney wing of their party).

  155. avatar
    BatGuano December 9, 2010 at 2:41 pm #

    isittrue: Sooo… Obama still won’t provide the public his actual Birth Certificate (not Certificate of Live Birth).

    isit, do a simple easy test for us. call your local DMV and ask if they accept a hawaiian COLB as proof of birth. if they say “yes” ….. you have your answer. if “no” please let us know the state you asked.

  156. avatar
    Sean December 9, 2010 at 7:13 pm #

    noseitall: #####################
    That is, if you can actually provide answers and not just rant. #####################

    Please tell me the parameters of how you want my answer presented to you. After you do that, please just write my answer for me. If I answer you myself, you most likely won’t be satisfied.

  157. avatar
    Daniel December 9, 2010 at 7:21 pm #

    isittrue: I wonder if a Freedom of Information Act request to Congress to see Obama’s birth certificate (which was supposedly supplied to Congress) would be successful? Not just the “Certification of Live Birth” that has been posted, but the actual birth certificate. Surely they would honor that request, right?Or if the FOIA does not apply to Congress, perhaps they would still comply with a request.Especially after January.Hmm…

    The COLB… IS the birth certificate. We get that you don’t like that, but nobody cares what you like or don’t like.

    And Congress, even a Repubvlican Congress, also doesn’t care what birthers don’t like.

    Republicans will be too busy running the country after January to worry about flat earthers, moon landing hoaxers, chem trail loonies, or birthers.

  158. avatar
    Sean December 9, 2010 at 7:28 pm #

    Black Lion:
    That ship has passed.If that was the case how do you explain the fact that he is charged with missing a movement of his unit and disobeying a direct order from his superior?Meaning how does Obama showinghis BC change those facts?You can disobey an order then change your mind and obey it.You can miss a movement of your unit and then join them at a later date.So tell us how will producing the BC help Lakin?He choose to end his career by doing what he did.The idiotic birthers live in some fantasy land where they think they can decide what laws apply to them and determine what laws mean.
    Trust me during the court martial Lakin’s attorney will be hoping to just limit the damage that Lakin has already done by listening to people like you.

    Lakin is in no position to give orders to the Commander in Chief.

  159. avatar
    Sean December 9, 2010 at 7:39 pm #

    isittrue: Sooo… Obama still won’t provide the public his actual Birth Certificate (not Certificate of Live Birth).That’s the bottom line, isn’t it?Why didn’t you just say so?

    The bottom line is there is a fringe movement (you are a member) that don’t like Obama. One of the rumors started by them that they cling to is that Obama was not born in the US. Obama posted a standard issue copy of his birth record that was received by the birthers (you are one of them) as either not enough or a forgery. Since Obama was never required to produce such documents in the first place, he’s left the birthers to stew in their own hatred and misery. Obama has chosen not to play this game.

    If he decides to run in 2012 and a particular state requires a copy of his original BC, I’m sure he’d oblige.

  160. avatar
    James M December 9, 2010 at 7:48 pm #

    Sean: If he decides to run in 2012 and a particular state requires a copy of his original BC, I’m sure he’d oblige.

    If that comes to pass, it will be hilarious after the birthers learn that the state may not disclose this document for the curiosity of their movement! If a state did raise that requirement, it would *still* be illegal for them to publish his private record! Watch the birthers twist in the breeze as he is put on the ballot without comment…

  161. avatar
    Sean December 9, 2010 at 9:22 pm #

    James M:
    If that comes to pass, it will be hilarious after the birthers learn that the state may not disclose this document for the curiosity of their movement!If a state did raise that requirement, it would *still* be illegal for them to publish his private record!Watch the birthers twist in the breeze as he is put on the ballot without comment…

    That’s right. If any of the birther bills do go through, is there any language that states this document must be made public, or just furnished to the elections people?

  162. avatar
    Daniel December 9, 2010 at 9:43 pm #

    Sean: That’s right. If any of the birther bills do go through, is there any language that states this document must be made public, or just furnished to the elections people?

    Privacy laws would trump any such law anyways, so I highly doubt any state legislature would pass it.

  163. avatar
    Sean December 9, 2010 at 10:56 pm #

    Daniel:
    Privacy laws would trump any such law anyways, so I highly doubt any state legislature would pass it.

    I think the proposed birther laws, if passed would require a candidate to produce a copy of the original birth certificate to be included on the ballet for that state.

    But of coarse, if that’s the requirement Obama will meet it. What are they going to say, “this is fake?”

  164. avatar
    AnotherBird December 10, 2010 at 4:21 am #

    isittrue: Sooo… Obama still won’t provide the public his actual Birth Certificate (not Certificate of Live Birth).

    That’s the bottom line, isn’t it?

    Why didn’t you just say so?

    A Certificate of Live Birth is a birth certificate. There is no reason for anyone to provide their birth certificate to the public. If there was any such requirement Lakin wouldn’t be facing a court martial, now would he. Or, at least of the 70 odd cases would have succeeded.

  165. avatar
    The Magic M December 10, 2010 at 5:16 am #

    > If there was any such requirement Lakin wouldn’t be facing a court martial, now would he.

    He would. You’re making the same mistake as the birthers by believing that Obama’s eligibility has anything to do with Lakin’s right to disobey orders by his immediate superiors.

    Or do you mean “if there was such a requirement, there would be no birthers”? Sure there would, as all conspiracy believers do not care about documents disproving their claims, those are “all forgeries”, after all.

  166. avatar
    AnotherBird December 10, 2010 at 5:36 am #

    The Magic M: > If there was any such requirement Lakin wouldn’t be facing a court martial, now would he.He would. You’re making the same mistake as the birthers by believing that Obama’s eligibility has anything to do with Lakin’s right to disobey orders by his immediate superiors.Or do you mean “if there was such a requirement, there would be no birthers”? Sure there would, as all conspiracy believers do not care about documents disproving their claims, those are “all forgeries”, after all.

    I don’t mean either.

    All that is meant is that there is no legal requirement or otherwise for the president to make his birth certificate publicly available. The president has however released his birth certificate for the public to view.

    Birther like Lakin believe through their various actions that they can force the president to release what ever document they want to see. Lakin like the fool he is believed that by disobeying his order that he could have the president release his records.

    Birthers would still exist if Obama had to make his birth certificate publicly available.

    There has been frequent failures for birthers.

    “At least one f the 70 odd cases would have succeeded” if there was such a rule. None exist and that is the point.

  167. avatar
    The Magic M December 10, 2010 at 7:14 am #

    > Lakin like the fool he is believed that by disobeying his order that he could have the president release his records.

    As I’ve pointed out before, I don’t even think that any plaintiff in any birther lawsuit actually believed he would get to see the records.
    If that were the case, instead of having the likes of Orly and Berg file dozens of blatantly deficit lawsuits, they could have tried just a single case, supported by a competent lawyer (who may not agree with their theories but has the competence of advancing them better), and that would have been it.
    But their flurry of shabby lawyering (see the reasons for denial of Orly’s latest appeal) rather points to a different strategy:

    To appeal to their paranoid fringe audience, they’ll have to evoke the impression of “the entire judicial system is corrupt and in on the conspiracy”. How better can you do that than failing not in one (perfectly prepared) case but in 100 cases (so badly prepared they get thrown out before even getting to the merits)?

    They never intended to “win” because they knew they couldn’t. And they definitely did not want their theories (foreign birth, NBC redefinition etc.) debunked thoroughly.
    (For the same reason they don’t intend to see Obamas BC because it would debunk their claims of foreign birth.)
    It’s much easier for them to point the finger at the courts for “not hearing our case on the merits” than explaining to their followers why a carefully worded court rebuttal of their so-called “merits” was “erroneous”.

    Now my opinion is that in every conspiracy theory being promoted, there are not just lunatics involved, but also a small but important percentile who know very well what they’re doing.
    And these people obviously decided not to take a single “blockbuster” case right in the heart of D.C. but scatter incompetent pseudo-lawsuits all across the country. So the question is: why?

  168. avatar
    Keith December 10, 2010 at 8:20 am #

    The Magic M: To appeal to their paranoid fringe audience, they’ll have to evoke the impression of “the entire judicial system is corrupt and in on the conspiracy”.

    We are seeing this same strategy starting to gather momentum in the Wikileaks scandal. There are already reports that the U.S. State department has declared that Assange will not be allowed legal representation and that any lawyer who takes on his case will be considered an accessory after the fact.

    I don’t care which side of the Wikileaks affair you come down on, it is un-American to spread such stupid obvious falsehoods in an attempt to poison the minds of vulnerable people.

  169. avatar
    DCH December 10, 2010 at 8:34 am #

    “How many time must you wingnuts be told that there is no long form BC? There is only the COLB. I am begining to wonder if being stupid is a requirement for being a birther.”

    Blinded by ideology. Birthers are like a religious cult now. Facts make no difference to the birthers. All of the claims and cases fail upon contact with the thing called “reality.”
    They have tested and retested the same arguments with the same results. Lunatics in the true sense of the word.

    Not one of the idiots has produced a scrap of evidence and the grifters just recycle the exact same zombie claims over and over. They are 100% failures at predicting what judges will do, and get all excited when one of the grifters goes to the SCOTUS requesting Cert. They all seem to think that the SCOTUS Justices actuall have “discussed” these cases – failing to realize that that the court denies 300 cases in a single conference day.

    Latkin is the suicider version of birther – a new escalation!

  170. avatar
    John Reilly December 10, 2010 at 9:50 am #

    Speaking of lawsuits failing, Judge Lambreth in Washington DC ruled against Ms. Taitz’s motion for reconsideration yesterday.

    If folks who believe that President Obama is not eligible really wanted to succeed in court, in addition to retaining attorneys who can spell, they would have appealed Ankeny, the case which got closest to the merits. However, they chose not to do so. I can only assume from that is that their exit strategy is not victory. As we have often learned in matters military, an exit strategy which does not focus on winning is an exit strategy doomed to failure.

    As to the suggestion that Congress issue an FOIA request to Hawaii, FOIA is a statute which allows citizens to get certain information from the federal government. It is not a statute which gives Congress any right to secure information from anyone. Congress can issue a subpoena to investigate whatever it pleases. However, I would prefer that my Congressman work on getting the budget and deficit under control. I would think that if a House committee went off on this frolic and detour that they would be derelict in their duty to solve the real problems we face, i.e., two wars, out of control spending, high unemloyment, etc.

  171. avatar
    The Magic M December 10, 2010 at 10:15 am #

    > they would have appealed Ankeny, the case which got closest to the merits. However, they chose not to do so

    Of course, because that might have resultet in binding precedent. Without appeal, they can always dismiss it as “a single non-binding (false) opinion of a single court”.

    Maybe they were surprised the Ankeny case got to the merits at all. Success is failure, if your aim is to fail on purpose. πŸ˜‰

  172. avatar
    G December 10, 2010 at 10:46 am #

    The Magic M: Now my opinion is that in every conspiracy theory being promoted, there are not just lunatics involved, but also a small but important percentile who know very well what they’re doing.

    Most definitely. These are the folks who have an agenda to manipulate and profit. Most of these conspiracies wouldn’t last that long or spread very far without the shameless con artists feeding their paranoia.

  173. avatar
    Black Lion December 10, 2010 at 3:38 pm #

    Humorous article by noted crank and failed lawsuit filer Cort Wrotnowski from the Post and Fail….#1 make him think that he is somehow Tom Cruise in “A Few Good Men”…

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/12/10/top-ten-reasons-for-supporting-ltc-terry-lakin-md/

    THIS IS THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEMAND OBAMA’S PROOF OF ELIGIBILITY
    by Cort Wrotnowski

    (Dec. 10, 2010) — Editor’s Note: The following submission outlines why Lt. Col. Terrence Lakin’s questioning of Obama’s eligibility to serve as Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. military is valid and should be first and foremost on the minds of every American.

    10. TO GET THE JUDGES TO SIMPLY ANSWER THE QUESTION: IS OBAMA A NATURAL BORN U.S. CITIZEN? YES OR NO. They won’t answer the question. They criticize, they bluster, they do so much judicial hand-waving in every ruling that has been issued to date; but they avoid answering the question as if it’s poison.

    9. BECAUSE THE U.S. SUPREME COURT HAS ABDICATED ITS RESPONSIBILITY. In a Congressional budget hearing, when Chairman David Serrano joked about natural born citizenship, Justice Clarence Thomas responded “We are evading that one,” then laughed with the rest of the room. Then in November, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear the Kerchner case. Is there a connection? You bet there is.

    8. LTC LAKIN HAS FOLLOWED ALL THE PROPER CHANNELS – LTC Lakin took every correct administrative step to seek the answer to the simple question everyone treats as poison: Is Obama eligible to be president? The system has responded by breaking all the rules.

    7. BECAUSE THE MILITARY AND CIVILIAN JUDICIAL SYSTEMS ARE OBVIOUSLY PREJUDICED – Denying an appellant due process could not be more prejudicial. Threatening baseless sanctions without permitting the plaintiff the ability to clear his name is also extremely prejudicial.

    6. EVERYONE ELSE IS PLAYING STUPID AND GETTING AWAY WITH IT – The comments offered by various members of Congress when asked about Obama’s eligibility are classic textbook examples of moronic and idiotic conduct. That so many give such uninformed and thoroughly ridiculous answers shows that there is a problem and they are doing everything they can to avoid taking responsibility for it. Congress will have to learn to stop being a group of useful idiots.

    5. OBAMA IS AN ILLEGAL PRESIDENT – His father was never an American citizen. He never even had a green card. THAT is why he is not a natural born Citizen, and that is why he is not eligible to be president. Around that extremely simple point has been built a system which has compromised the whole federal and state governments. More government officials have started to speak up, but not nearly enough. That’s why you people in Congress need to wake up. For you, time is running out.

    4. HISTORY WILL DAMN THE LIARS – Over 200 years of precedence in the form of notes and influences of our Founding Fathers, Congressional acts, judicial rulings and legislative initiatives has not changed one iota the original meaning of “natural born Citizen.” When the truth does finally come out, those who lied to protect a criminal president will by damned by history.

    3. UNDER AN ILLEGAL PRESIDENT, THE U.S. MILITARY LOSES GENEVA CONVENTION PROTECTIONS – It is only a matter of time before some terrorist group or country takes advantage of this at our fighting men and women’s expense. Blood will be on the hands of The Liars.

    2. THE TRUTH WILL OUT – More people are aware of this than the elite power structure believes. The only thing stopping the truth from getting out is sufficient public pressure on the media.

    1. THEY CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH – More than any other reason, this is why the public is needed, and why Congress must take heed. The judiciary has already proven they can’t handle the truth. This court martial of LTC Terry Lakin, MD, will be no different. In fact, since the stakes are so high, it stands to be worse. In a sense, what happens to LTC Lakin will happen to America. If his rights get trampled on, look forward to yours getting trampled on, too.

  174. avatar
    G December 10, 2010 at 3:44 pm #

    LOL! What a completely demented and fact-free temper tantrum from Cort W.

    It should be retitled Top Ten Delusions for why Cort needs to go back on his meds…

  175. avatar
    Sef December 10, 2010 at 4:12 pm #

    G: LOL!What a completely demented and fact-free temper tantrum from Cort W.It should be retitled Top Ten Delusions for why Cort needs to go back on his meds…

    At least some of his titles were accurate, 4 & 2 for instance.

  176. avatar
    G December 10, 2010 at 4:46 pm #

    Sef:
    At least some of his titles were accurate, 4 & 2 for instance.

    Yeah, but too bad the titles actually refer to reality smacking the birthers upside the head…

    πŸ™‚

  177. avatar
    joey December 10, 2010 at 4:47 pm #

    God, I love birther rants!

  178. avatar
    SueDB December 10, 2010 at 4:57 pm #

    Jason: However, Lakin’s BC provides a hell of alot more information than Obama’s such as hospital name and the birth doc.Lakin’s BC definitely establishes he was born where he claims.Obama’s BC lists no doc or hospital.And since we don’t have this information and the COLB that Obama possesses could have easily been obtained even if Obama was NOT born in Hawaii given the 1961 circumstances, Obama’s birthplace remains in question.

    Rant away, but his documentation lists his birthplace as the Island of Oahu.

  179. avatar
    SueDB December 10, 2010 at 5:25 pm #

    dunstvangeet:
    I had heard that basically, if you make it past 12 years, you’re almost guarenteed the 20, unless you do something really stupid, as long as you remain fit for duty.Lakin falls under the first exception.I was wrong.

    If you do what you’re told, finish the right leadership schools, no drugs, keep within the weight limits, do your job to at least your supervisor’s satisfaction, you are almost guaranteed 20 years…Promotion happens to those who at least meet the standards. Promotion early happens to those who exceed the standards.

    There is the “unspoken rule” that if you got to 18, then you would make the 20. There is an AF LTC Feurerback (sp) who was booted at 19 years (F-15 jock too).

    Nothing is for sure when you deal with the Military. Doo Doo happens…

  180. avatar
    Stephen December 11, 2010 at 2:13 am #

    Can someone explain to me (in small words) how anything that President Obama could show to LTC Lakin would make it that LTC Lakin had not missed movement and had not disobeyed orders? LTC Lakin did those things. There are no take-backs.

  181. avatar
    misha December 11, 2010 at 2:19 am #

    Stephen: Can someone explain to me (in small words) how anything that President Obama could show to LTC Lakin

    Lakin initially wanted to be flown, at govt. expense, to Hawaii, and be personally shown the actual form signed by the physician who delivered him.

    He was told by birther lawyers, that he was correct, and that the military lawyers were wrong. Oops.

  182. avatar
    Daniel December 11, 2010 at 2:36 am #

    Stephen: Can someone explain to me (in small words) how anything that President Obama could show to LTC Lakin would make it that LTC Lakin had not missed movement and had not disobeyed orders?LTC Lakin did those things.There are no take-backs.

    Your supposition is correct. There is nothing.

    Birthers don’t like that.

    The universe does not care what birthers like.

  183. avatar
    The Magic M December 11, 2010 at 6:08 am #

    > 3. UNDER AN ILLEGAL PRESIDENT, THE U.S. MILITARY LOSES GENEVA CONVENTION PROTECTIONS

    *lol* It’s funny how these people never read the documents they’re referring to.

    The Geneva convention even protects members of “militias” and “volunteer corps'”, so even if no soldier in the entire US was “following legal orders”, they’d still be protected.

    I wonder if my respective comment at the P&E will make it through, fact-challenged as they are.

  184. avatar
    Farkinookin_Slenad December 11, 2010 at 9:20 am #

    Stephen: Can someone explain to me (in small words) how anything that President Obama could show to LTC Lakin would make it that LTC Lakin had not missed movement and had not disobeyed orders?LTC Lakin did those things.There are no take-backs.

    Orders must be refused if they are given by a usurper. The Defacto Officer Doctrine does not apply to individuals who question the authority of the alleged usurper in the beginning.

    Any military officer who followed orders from Obama has acquiesced and must continue to follow orders. LTC Lakin questioned Obama’s authority since the beginning of Obama’s term. Consequently, he maintains the right to question Obama’s authority and disobey orders.

    It is not imperative for Lakin, under the Defacto Officer Doctrine, to disobey all orders. It is logical Lakin will only disobey the orders that could be detrimental to him personally.

  185. avatar
    Northland10 December 11, 2010 at 10:11 am #

    Farkinookin_Slenad: TC Lakin questioned Obama’s authority since the beginning of Obama’s term.

    The determination of whether or not the President is qualified is for a LTC, “above his pay grade.” That determination lies with the civilian world, i.e. Congress (and the Electoral College/Voters). By acting as if the President were not qualified, LTC Lakin is exercising power not entitled to his position/rank. I believe that would be referred to as “usurping” the Congress’s role. So who is the Usurper?

    Farkinookin_Slenad: It is logical Lakin will only disobey the orders that could be detrimental to him personally.

    Make sure you inform the soldier that has been ordered to attack a machine gun nest that he does not need to follow orders that are detrimental to him. I am sure he will thank you. His unit and surrounding civilians being cut down by the machine gun nest may not be so appreciative, but they will have the honor of being cut down in the service of making your world safe from Presidents with funny sounding names. You will want to visit their families so they may pay homage for their relatives honor.

  186. avatar
    BatGuano December 11, 2010 at 10:28 am #

    Farkinookin_Slenad:
    Orders must be refused if they are given by a usurper. The Defacto Officer Doctrine does not apply to individuals who question the authority of the alleged usurper in the beginning.

    where exactly is this exception to the de facto officer doctrine written? is there a time frame on what constitutes “the beginning” and are there criteria to be met to qualify “question the authority”. can i just state at the beginning of each president’s term that i have doubts then pick and choose which orders are “detrimental to me personally” till those doubts are answered to my satisfaction?

    judge col. lind has already ruled that obama’s eligibility has nothing to do with with lakin’s refusal to obey orders and lakin’s own lawyer agrees. if you truly have found a loop-hole in the de facto officer doctrine i’d suggest you get it to lakin’s defense team before the 14th. obviously the are unaware of such rule.

  187. avatar
    Sef December 11, 2010 at 10:42 am #

    Farkinookin_Slenad: Any military officer who followed orders from Obama has acquiesced and must continue to follow orders.

    That, of course, means that Lakin MUST give back all his pay (with interest) that he has gotten since 1/20/2009.

  188. avatar
    Sef December 11, 2010 at 10:44 am #

    Farkinookin_Slenad: It is not imperative for Lakin, under the Defacto Officer Doctrine, to disobey all orders. It is logical Lakin will only disobey the orders that could be detrimental to him personally.

    So, you are saying that Lakin is a coward.

  189. avatar
    Steve December 11, 2010 at 11:03 am #

    The Magic M: > 3. UNDER AN ILLEGAL PRESIDENT, THE U.S. MILITARY LOSES GENEVA CONVENTION PROTECTIONS*lol* It’s funny how these people never read the documents they’re referring to.The Geneva convention even protects members of “militias” and “volunteer corps’”, so even if no soldier in the entire US was “following legal orders”, they’d still be protected.I wonder if my respective comment at the P&E will make it through, fact-challenged as they are.

    Why all this sudden concern about the Geneva Convention?
    Where was the birthers’ concern about it when Bush was President?

  190. avatar
    Arthur December 11, 2010 at 11:51 am #

    I recall that back in the summer of 2009, Orly Taitz, when she was representing Capt. Connie Rhodes, proposed the fraudulent notion that an “illegal” president would abrogate Geneva Convention protections for U.S. military personnel. Her claim was thoroughly discredited, but in the birther community, spurious ideas never die, they just fall out of use until new nincompoops rediscover them.

  191. avatar
    DaveH December 11, 2010 at 12:39 pm #

    Stephen: Can someone explain to me (in small words) how anything that President Obama could show to LTC Lakin would make it that LTC Lakin had not missed movement and had not disobeyed orders? LTC Lakin did those things. There are no take-backs.

    You’re soooo right. There are no ‘take-backs’. This is something the birfoons and Lakin’s first attorney, the bloviating-bozo Jensen, obviously didn’t understand. This could NOT be over if Obama decided to show his long form BC to Lakin because the damage was already done when Lakin decided not to follow his orders.

    It is hard for me to understand the birfer mind and that’s why I rarely ever argue with them because I’d get better results from banging my head against a brick wall and fewer headaches.

  192. avatar
    Greg December 11, 2010 at 12:54 pm #

    Steve: Why all this sudden concern about the Geneva Convention?

    Because the birthers will grab onto anything that even sounds like it could help, without ever checking to see if what they’re grabbing onto helps or even actively undermines their case. An example – one of Mario’s articles had him saying this:

    Thomas Lee (University of Chicago Law), in his essay, “The Safe-Conduct Theory of the Alien Tort Statute,” said: “The treatise by the Swiss thinker Emmerich de Vattel entitled The Law of Nations or Principles of the Law of Nature Applied to the Conduct and Affairs of Nations and Sovereigns was the supremus inter pares of the international law texts the founding group used during the crucial decade between 1787 and 1797. The Founders also read and cited other leading authorities, most notable Hugo Grotius and Samuel Pufendorf, but Vattel was their clear favorite. “

    Okay, so Vattel’s the Founders favorite authority, right? Not so much, the article also says:

    “But at the very least, it seems fair to look to The Law of Nations—and secondarily to the foundational treatises by Hugo Grotius and Samuel Pufendorf—when Blackstone and other evidence is silent or lacking on a key point, particularly as to the definition and scope of safe conducts at international law.”

    This Geneva Convention thing is just the same. It covers all international armed conflict whether it’s illegally declared or not – indeed, whether it’s declared at all!. The question is, “Is one of the parties to the conflict a signatory to the Geneva Conventions?” If so, and it’s a conflict, the Geneva Conventions apply.

    There’s actually a good article about the subject of illegal wars and soldier liability and the failure to follow orders in the July edition of the legal journal <a href="http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/07-2010.pdf"The Army Lawyer. (pdf)

    Soldiers can be prosecuted for violating the jus in bello, laws governing war, and cannot be prosecuted for violating the jus ad bellum, the law governing just/legal wars.

  193. avatar
    J.D. Reed December 11, 2010 at 3:08 pm #

    To Farkinookin_Slenad:
    Lemme get this straight: A soldier in a war zone who didn’t question Barack Obama’s legitimacy from the beginning is required to follow military orders from that point forward, and is protected by the de facto officer doctrine from being prosecuted as a war criminal, but is justly subject to prosecution by the U.S. military if he disobeys a superior’s order. Meanwhile, a soldier who has questioned Mr. Obama’s legitimacy from the beginning is justified in disobeying a superior’s orders, and should be protected from prosecution by the U.S. military for doing so — but if he deploys to a war zone and is captured by the enemy, he can justly be treated as a war criminal?
    Is this what they teach in enlisted basic training and in officer training, when they cover the topic of the Uniform Code of Military Justice?

  194. avatar
    misha December 11, 2010 at 4:23 pm #

    Farkinookin_Slenad: Orders must be refused if they are given by a usurper.

    I read about this type of clinical insantity in one of my textbooks.