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Abercrombie smeared

The American Thinker blog represents a more literate smear vehicle than the usual birther web site. (The preceding sentence was not a smear; it was an insult). In a recent piece on Hawaii’s governor Abercrombie, the author, Jack Cashill, attempts to paint Abercrombie as someone trying create a parasitic relationship with Barack Obama, trying to gain a patina of celebrity by touting his (fictional?) relationship with the Obama family. At least that’s what the article, Will Obama Silence Blundering Abercrombie? might lead the weak-minded reader into thinking.

Early on the Cashill says:

Although the major media have questioned why Abercrombie would raise an issue that, according to the Los Angeles Times, “most people see as resolved,” they take Abercrombie at his word as to what he knows about the young Obama family.

The Thinker doesn’t tell us who is raising this question; it’s not a sentiment I personally have come across.

The Thinker article confuses the reader by conflating a visit to Washington State soon after Barack Obama was born with her enrollment in classes there the next January, leading the reader to jump to the wrong conclusion that Abercrombie could not have seen baby Obama at social events soon after his birth.

Some of the smears are a little less clever and really come across rather lame, such as this gem:

The 17-year-old Ann had met the 24 year-old Barack Sr. in Russian class at the University of Hawaii. Why they were studying Russian (in 1960, people like Lee Harvey Oswald studied Russian) is a question for another day.

Let me talk about this question today. Do you recall what Stanley Ann Dunham was studying at the University of Hawaii? Her 1967 degree from UH was in mathematics. In 1968, I was studying mathematics and my faculty adviser suggested that I study Russian because the Russians were #2 in the world in mathematics.

Cashill’s plugging his upcoming book, Deconstructing Obama. Maybe I can find a copy in the dumpster. The Lee Harvey Oswald thing was a smear; the preceding was an insult, a statement of derision.

Jack Cashill is a regular contributor to WorldNetDaily. (You might consider THAT a smear.)

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133 Responses to Abercrombie smeared

  1. avatar
    charo January 4, 2011 at 5:37 pm #

    I think she was enrolled in September according to copies records I have seen posted. There is a youtube video of a woman claiming to be SAD’s friend who places her in Seattle in late August:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=advfrQEeIBY

  2. avatar
    charo January 4, 2011 at 5:52 pm #

    There is no question in my mind that Governor Abercrombie and Obama Sr. were close friends. Clearly the Governor is a supporter of the President and vice-versa. Close friends?

    http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=13738754

    Abercrombie on vacation in Hana Posted: Dec 24, 2010 4:49 PM EST

    “Spokeswoman Donalyn Dela Cruz says Abercrombie will remain there until Jan. 3.

    She says there are no current plans for the governor to meet President Barack Obama, who is vacationing with his family in Kailua. Abercrombie is an old friend of Obama’s.”

  3. avatar
    Keith January 4, 2011 at 6:58 pm #

    Let me talk about this question today. Do you recall what Stanley Ann Dunham was studying at the University of Hawaii? Her 1967 degree from UH was in mathematics. In 1968, I was studying mathematics and my faculty adviser suggested that I study Russian because the Russians were #2 in the world in mathematics

    Exactly the same thing with my brother, and he was a strong Goldwater and Nixon backer. He grew to hate Nixon but remained a strong conservative all his life.

    The Lee Harvey Oswald thing was a smear; the preceding was an insult, a statement of derision.

    You aren’t getting a little streak of nasty in your retirement are you, Doc? ;-)

    By the way were you aware that Sarah Palin spent several years studying in Moscow? I wonder who paid for that?

  4. avatar
    BatGuano January 4, 2011 at 7:04 pm #

    oswald was also a marine……… i’ve got an old friend in the marines, full bird, that studied russian when we were in college. it was the tail end of the cold war and just seemed like a useful talent to have in the marines.

    i’ll let him know his repeated oswald like actions are suspicious.

  5. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 4, 2011 at 7:28 pm #

    Keith: You aren’t getting a little streak of nasty in your retirement are you, Doc? ;-)

    It’s not new.

  6. avatar
    Keith January 4, 2011 at 7:36 pm #

    Doc: Do you recall what Stanley Ann Dunham was studying at the University of Hawaii? Her 1967 degree from UH was in mathematics.

    I missed this assertion. My understanding is that Palin got her journalism degree in 1987 from the atheistic government controlled school in Moscow. No one in Moscow remembers her.

    She claims to have been at Hawaii Pacific University, a “private”, atheist (code for Communist?) school in 1982, the same year Obama was at Columbia. No one remembers her there either.

  7. avatar
    Rickey January 4, 2011 at 8:08 pm #

    charo: Spokeswoman Donalyn Dela Cruz says Abercrombie will remain there until Jan. 3.She says there are no current plans for the governor to meet President Barack Obama, who is vacationing with his family in Kailua. Abercrombie is an old friend of Obama’s.”

    Kailua is on Oahu, but Abercrombie was vacationing at Hana, which is on Maui. Getting together would require quite a bit of logistical work.

  8. avatar
    charo January 4, 2011 at 8:40 pm #

    I suppose it would be rather difficult for a sitting President and Governor, old friends, to meet because of logistics. The scenic drive was probably less of a bother.

    http://titcombfamilyhistory.blogspot.com/2008/12/obama-titcomb-connection.html

    HONOLULU (AP) — President-elect Barack Obama and his family spent nearly seven hours on Oahu’s North Shore, visiting one of his old high school buddies.
    Obama’s police-escorted motorcade took a two-hour scenic drive Sunday up the island’s windward coast from his rental home to the Mokuleia residence of Bobby Titcomb.

    Or maybe because Mitt Romney was vacationing in Maui.

    http://www.kitv.com/politics/26251809/detail.html

  9. avatar
    Slartibartfast January 4, 2011 at 9:57 pm #

    Doc C: Let me talk about this question today. Do you recall what Stanley Ann Dunham was studying at the University of Hawaii? Her 1967 degree from UH was in mathematics. In 1968, I was studying mathematics and my faculty adviser suggested that I study Russian because the Russians were #2 in the world in mathematics

    Who wouldn’t want to be able to read Kolmogorov in the original?

  10. avatar
    NdH January 4, 2011 at 10:51 pm #

    Dr. C: “The Thinker article confuses the reader by conflating a visit to Washington State soon after Barack Obama was born with her enrollment in classes there the next January…”

    Maybe you should do a little more readin’ now that you’ve retired!

    Stanley Ann was registered and taking EXTENSION courses at the University of Washington for the semesters of 9/19/61 thru 12/12/61 and 12/27/61 thru 3/20/62.

    So which is it, Dr. C? Was Stanley Ann in Washington in Sept 1961 or was she attending social events in Hawaii? When, exactly did Niel Abercrombie see Obama’s parents with little O at the social events? (Be careful how you answer this. Being that you have already demonstrated you lack of knowledge as to the fall/winter whereabouts of Stanley Ann, we wouldn’t want you to later find out about information that would make socializing with Obama Sr. less likely.) :)

    Since the entire plausability of birth in Kenya is based on what a sensible young woman/mother would or would not do; why don’t you tell us about the sensibility of a young woman leaving the support network of her parents and husband to attend college in another state?

  11. avatar
    Keith January 4, 2011 at 11:15 pm #

    NdH: Stanley Ann was registered and taking EXTENSION courses at the University of Washington for the semesters of 9/19/61 thru 12/12/61 and 12/27/61 thru 3/20/62.

    So which is it, Dr. C? Was Stanley Ann in Washington in Sept 1961 or was she attending social events in Hawaii?

    Do you have any idea what an ‘EXTENSION course’ is?

    There is no reason for her to be in Washington for an extension course.

  12. avatar
    Keith January 4, 2011 at 11:30 pm #

    Keith: I missed this assertion.

    I dunno how I bent your statement about SAD into a mixup about SLP. I’ll just plead senility I suppose.

    The contrast is mildly interesting anyway. Maybe not interesting. Curious maybe? No not curious. Irrelevant? Yeah, thats it. Irrelevant.

  13. avatar
    BatGuano January 5, 2011 at 12:51 am #

    NdH: Since the entire plausability of birth in Kenya is based on what a sensible young woman/mother would or would not do;…

    but it’s not just based on the actions of stanley ann. there are the aspects of the need for yellow fever shots ( a big no-no for pregnant mothers and infants ), the physical act of being able to travel from kenya to hawaii in the few days in 1961, the cost of that travel, the issue of obama coming thru customs in hawaii….

  14. avatar
    Peter January 5, 2011 at 2:37 am #

    “At the time, People like Lee Harvey Oswald were breathing air”

    Easy

  15. avatar
    The Magic M January 5, 2011 at 6:36 am #

    > Who wouldn’t want to be able to read Kolmogorov in the original?

    I’m just glad today’s greatest such as Perelman publish in English. :)

  16. avatar
    ellid January 5, 2011 at 7:03 am #

    NdH: Dr. C: “The Thinker article confuses the reader by conflating a visit to Washington State soon after Barack Obama was born with her enrollment in classes there the next January…”Maybe you should do a little more readin’ now that you’ve retired!Stanley Ann was registered and taking EXTENSION courses at the University of Washington for the semesters of 9/19/61 thru 12/12/61 and 12/27/61 thru 3/20/62.So which is it, Dr. C? Was Stanley Ann in Washington in Sept 1961 or was she attending social events in Hawaii? When, exactly did Niel Abercrombie see Obama’s parents with little O at the social events? (Be careful how you answer this. Being that you have already demonstrated you lack of knowledge as to the fall/winter whereabouts of Stanley Ann, we wouldn’t want you to later find out about information that would make socializing with Obama Sr. less likely.)
    Since the entire plausability of birth in Kenya is based on what a sensible young woman/mother would or would not do; why don’t you tell us about the sensibility of a young woman leaving the support network of her parents and husband to attend college in another state?

    As Misha has pointed out repeatedly, there is NO plausibility to the idea that Stanley Dunham went to Kenya. Zero. Nada. None. That you bring it up wrecks your credibility from the get-go.

  17. avatar
    ellid January 5, 2011 at 7:11 am #

    Keith:
    Do you have any idea what an EXTENSION course’ is?There is no reason for her to be in Washington for an extension course.

    The modern equivalent of an extension course is an on-line course. I’m taking classes on-line right now through a university 1500 miles from my home. Does that mean I’m not actually enrolled, or that I’ve somehow bilocated to be in Massachusetts and Nebraska at the same time?

  18. avatar
    NdH January 5, 2011 at 8:08 am #

    Keith and ellid,

    Stop trying to conflate extension courses and correspondence courses. In 1961 the ability to attend via computer did not exist. Either you took courses at an extension facility, or you took them via correspondence.

    Was there an extension of the University of Washington in Hawaii in 1961? I sure haven’t been able to find one.

  19. avatar
    Scientist January 5, 2011 at 8:47 am #

    NdH: Was Stanley Ann in Washington in Sept 1961 or was she attending social events in Hawaii?

    Given that the semester in Seattle began on Sept 19th, the answer is likely both.

    NdH: When, exactly did Niel Abercrombie see Obama’s parents with little O at the social events?

    I suppose you remember exact dates from 50 years ago? Personally, I remember seeing friends with their infants at social events 20 or 30 years ago, but I couldn’t tell you an exact date.

  20. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 5, 2011 at 9:04 am #

    NdH: Maybe you should do a little more readin’ now that you’ve retired!

    Stanley Ann was registered and taking EXTENSION courses at the University of Washington for the semesters of 9/19/61 thru 12/12/61 and 12/27/61 thru 3/20/62.

    But you make my point for me. Extension courses are those not given “at” the University. She only took classes AT the University of Washington starting in January (according to the source I consulted).

    Therefore, Abercrombie’s statement is completely in line with the facts, and the American Thinker article does conflate Stanley Ann’s visit to a friend in Washington State with her enrollment. to take classes there.

  21. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 5, 2011 at 9:09 am #

    Slartibartfast: Who wouldn’t want to be able to read Kolmogorov in the original?

    I took Russian for over 2 years, got A’s and couldn’t begin to read Russian literature in the original. I could, however, ask someone if they left their briefcase on the bus.

  22. avatar
    Scientist January 5, 2011 at 9:16 am #

    Condoleeza Rice studied Russian language and history in college (though some Russian sources don’t consider her all that fluent in the language).

  23. avatar
    Slartibartfast January 5, 2011 at 9:17 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I took Russian for over 2 years, got A’s and couldn’t begin to read Russian literature in the original. I could, however, ask someone if they left their briefcase on the bus.

    I can’t read Russian, but if I could, then Kolmogorov would be one of the first things I read… reading technical mathematics is easier than reading literature – between the equations and the jargon you can pretty much figure it out if you understand the little words and sentence structure.

  24. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 5, 2011 at 9:33 am #

    NdH: Either you took courses at an extension facility, or you took them via correspondence.

    Since you don’t seem to know what the UW extension program consisted of, I think this assertion is not worth consideration.

    However, even if Stanley Ann Obama did physically take courses at UW starting 9/19, that still conflates the two trips and turns a 5-week period where Abercrombie could have seen the Obama’s at social events into a 2-week period. No matter how you slice it, the American Thinker is misleading.

  25. avatar
    DCH January 5, 2011 at 9:38 am #

    NdH
    Assertions made with no evidence can be dismissed just as easily.

    EIGHTY courts have summarily dismissed these birther cases, and the dismissals have been upheld by state and federal appeals courts. The SCOTUS has not given you the time of day.

    Why is that?

    No a single respected Republican legal mind as come out in support of a single birther claim or legal argument. The number is ZERO. Why is that?

    LOL.

  26. avatar
    Sef January 5, 2011 at 10:24 am #

    DCH: No a single respected Republican legal mind as come out in support of a single birther claim or legal argument. The number is ZERO. Why is that?

    The conspiracy obviously runs much deeper that we could possibly imagine. They have gotten to the very fabric of reality.

  27. avatar
    BatGuano January 5, 2011 at 10:58 am #

    curious to find an exact definition of “extension courses” all i could find was ” Noun. A course offered as part of an extension service.” but looking at a few university sites it appears that “extension courses” encompasses correspondent, on-line and off campus studies.

  28. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) January 5, 2011 at 10:58 am #

    Sef: The conspiracy obviously runs much deeper that we could possibly imagine. They have gotten to the very fabric of reality.

    There goes the time/space continuum

  29. avatar
    Black Lion January 5, 2011 at 11:13 am #

    The birthers still can’t get over the Lakin issue…

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/01/03/citizen-requests-congressional-investigation-of-lt-col-lakin-court-martial/

    “Lt Col. Lakin is being punished because he questioned the legitimacy of the Commander in Chief and his orders. The Armed Services Committee, the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee and the Congress as a whole are responsible for oversight over the Executive Branch and the Department of Defense. We the People of the United States and the constituents of Virginia are requesting your action regarding this important matter, by a thorough investigation and inquiry of what is now widely being called a “kangaroo” court-martial. Major General Karl R. Horst should be pressed to grant clemency and be called into account, along with Judge Lind, for the denial of due process to LTC Lakin. This shameful incident falls on the shoulders of Congress for failure to deal with this matter prior to the electoral contest of 2008, with not one single question raised from the Congressional floor about the sweeping concealed records of Barack Obama, or the fact that We the People of the United States of America evidently have no judicial standing to try to rectify what appears to be massive fraud.”

    And in the comments…

    ch says:
    Tuesday, January 4, 2011 at 1:47 PM
    What is Judge Lind’s background? Has anybody investigated? This has got to be the first time in the history of the court system that “embarrassment” was accepted by a judge as reason to conceal vital records. The only way to save Obama embarrassment is for him to leave office. He chose to embarrass himself. Good Grief. This is just another Alinsky game, and it seems to be also played by this Judge, so what is her real background? What maneuvering got her into that spot? Few judges would have used their career to play that type of bizarre game with the Truth. I noticed what an interesting law firm that Lakin had as his lawyers. This is all so so weird. A doctor of 18 years with honorable service losing a pension because the guy in the White House is too embarrassed to identify himself? Is this a comedy scripted by Saturday Night LIve? Lakin will certainly have standing in court, now, but if embarrassment is a defense, we do not have a court for him to enter. That judge needs to be sentenced for mocking the court system.

    AuntieMadder says:
    Wednesday, January 5, 2011 at 4:51 AM
    Just opened and read the Resolution 593. I feel like I may throw up. I’m serious; my stomach is doing back flips. My body doesn’t know what to do with the overwhelming emotion of rage that hit it so suddenly.

    Ruth Petersen says:
    Tuesday, January 4, 2011 at 5:40 PM
    When I wrote to my Congressman, John Shimkus (R-IL), about Barry’s probable ineligibility, he told me to “get a life.” Cute, huh?

    Leo Patrick Haffey says:
    Tuesday, January 4, 2011 at 10:14 AM
    I am sure that LTC Lakin never thought that the BHO regime would dare come for him. After all, he was only doing his Constitutional Duty as an Officer of the United States Military in filing an Article 138 to determine the legitimacy of BHO as CIC.

    I certainly never thought that the BHO regime would dare come for me. All I was doing was my Constitutional Duty as an Officer of the Court by writing Articles questioning the legitimacy of BHO as POTUS. My only “crime” was that I thought that we still had Freedom of Speech in America.

    How long do you think it will be before the madmen of the BHO regime come for all of you?

    Remember the madmen don’t need a valid legal reason to imprison you. If the madmen don’t have a valid charge against you, in their madness, the madmen simply make one up.

    http://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2010/04/25/splc-enemy-list-leo-haffey-first-they-came-for-me-southern-poverty-law-center-enemy-list-nashville-attorney-haffey/

    RacerJim says:
    Tuesday, January 4, 2011 at 8:08 AM
    Here’s another coward’s response (to my email):

    Dear Mr. Carter:

    Thank you for getting in touch with me. It’s nice to hear from you.

    I appreciate knowing of your concern over a rumor that President Obama is ineligible to serve as President because he is not a U.S. citizen.

    The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution states that “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.” Since President Obama was born in Hawaii two years after it was admitted as the 50th state, he is a natural-born citizen. He has released a copy of his birth certificate and it has been authenticated by experts. Following Obama’s overwhelming and undisputed victory in the 2008 presidential election, the Supreme Court has considered challenges to his citizenship and dismissed them as being without merit.

    Again, thank you for contacting me. Please do not hesitate to let me know if I can be of assistance to you again in the future.

    Sincerely,
    Barbara A. Mikulski
    United States Senator

  30. avatar
    Black Lion January 5, 2011 at 11:20 am #

    More from the Post and Fail….

    “The following email was sent to numerous “Tea Party” groups in regard to the Obama eligibility question:

    Hi, Tea Party Groups,

    We are contacting you all to find out how you feel about something. And we always believe in not wasting time and going right to the source, especially when our surveys show something which we feel is highly unusual. So, with your indulgence….

    The general national impression (over 80%) from a survey I’ve just completed is that…..

    ….The Tea Parties seem not to care whether the president is eligible or not, has the authority to do what he’s done, or even born in the United States.

    …..That’s why, overall, The Tea Parties have refused to do anything about/with demanding the valid birth certificate, even without making any accusations”.

    Some respondents have said the reason for this is because The Tea Party Groups are certain that Mr. Obama is Constitutional eligible for president and born in the United States at the least..

    And this is the purpose of this email.

    In all our searches, we have been unable to find any proof, especially a valid birth certificate for starters, about Mr. Obama’s eligibility one way or the other. Further, without that, we were also unable to find valid proof for the identities of his parents and related.

    If any of you has such documentation (unfortunately “hearsay” and “public statements” are inadmissible), PLEASE would you forward them to us, of course along with any constructive statements you may wish to offer (Identities are confidential information).”

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/01/05/open-letter-to-tea-party-groups/

  31. avatar
    BatGuano January 5, 2011 at 11:21 am #

    i found this:

    The University of Washington Educational Outreach is the continuing education and professional development unit of the University of Washington(UW), in Seattle, Washington. Founded in 1912, UW Educational Outreach, was originally the branch of the university offering correspondence courses. It now provides educational opportunities and online learning for nontraditional students, most of whom are working adults.

  32. avatar
    ellid January 5, 2011 at 12:01 pm #

    NdH: Keith and ellid,Stop trying to conflate extension courses and correspondence courses. In 1961 the ability to attend via computer did not exist. Either you took courses at an extension facility, or you took them via correspondence.Was there an extension of the University of Washington in Hawaii in 1961? I sure haven’t been able to find one.

    Only if you stop smearing a woman who is dead and cannot defend herself.

  33. avatar
    misha January 5, 2011 at 12:02 pm #

    Condi Rice studied Russian in college, and speaks it at the native level.

  34. avatar
    misha January 5, 2011 at 12:17 pm #

    NdH: Since the entire plausability of birth in Kenya is based on what a sensible young woman/mother would or would not do; why don’t you tell us about the sensibility of a young woman leaving the support network of her parents and husband to attend college in another state?

    You raise some plausible points. I have found Obama’s Kenya BC!!

  35. avatar
    Greg January 5, 2011 at 12:18 pm #

    Black Lion: unfortunately “hearsay” and “public statements” are inadmissible

    Evidence FAIL!

    Hearsay has exceptions!

  36. avatar
    Greg January 5, 2011 at 12:37 pm #

    [quote]Since the entire plausability of birth in Kenya is based on what a sensible young woman/mother would or would not do; why don’t you tell us about the sensibility of a young woman leaving the support network of her parents and husband to attend college in another state?[/quote]

    You think it is equally plausible that a pregnant woman would travel to Kenya as travel to another state?

    Or, do you think that Stanley Ann was lying about both the travel to Kenya and her studies in Washington?

    Wait, it hurts my head to think like a birther. What are you claiming, exactly? That since it was easy to travel to Washington, that it was easy to travel to Kenya? (Wouldn’t it also be easy to travel BACK to Hawaii to meet Abercrombie, too?)

  37. avatar
    Scientist January 5, 2011 at 12:53 pm #

    misha: Not to argue, but I offer this

    I suppose one shouldn’t be surprised about the stuff that people will blog about (someone’s birth certificate from 1961, for example), but someone has actually blogged abour Condoleeza Rice’s fluency in Russian.
    http://briansteel.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/translation-8-fluency-in-foreign-languages-the-case-of-dr-condoleezza-rice/

    The bottom line-she speaks some Russian, but calling her fluent is probably a stretch. Same for her French.

    By the way, both my children took 4 years of Russian in high school, yet I don’t think they would call themselves fluent. Real fluency would probably require an extended stay in Russia.

  38. avatar
    The Magic M January 5, 2011 at 1:25 pm #

    > unfortunately “hearsay” and “public statements” are inadmissible

    Especially funny since the birthers have no more “evidence” than just that. If you graciously include a manipulatively shortened interview and unclear “statements” by some Kenyan dudes as “public statements”. If you don’t, all they have is hearsay. And “absence of evidence is evidence of absence”.

  39. avatar
    Rickey January 5, 2011 at 4:23 pm #

    NdH: Keith and ellid,Stop trying to conflate extension courses and correspondence courses. In 1961 the ability to attend via computer did not exist. Either you took courses at an extension facility, or you took them via correspondence.Was there an extension of the University of Washington in Hawaii in 1961? I sure haven’t been able to find one.

    Let me explain it to you, from personal experience.

    I took extension courses from the University of Wisconsin when I was in the Navy in the Philippines in 1968. The university had no facility in the Philippines. I enrolled and was mailed textbooks and assignments. I did the work in my barracks. I mailed my assignments to Madison, where they were graded and returned to me. I never met or spoke with my instructors. Then I took a final examination, which was held at my education officer’s office. The education officer mailed the completed exam to Madison where it was graded, and then I received a final grade.

    I expect that the University of Washington conducted its extension courses in much the same way in 1961.

    An extension service is defined as “an educational opportunity provided by colleges and universities to people who are not enrolled as regular students.” Regular students – whether full-time or part-time – typically take their classes on the college campus. Extension students take their classes elsewhere, usually wherever they happen to be living. Stanley Ann probably qualified for reduced tuition extension courses at the University of Washington because she was a graduate of a Washington high school.

  40. avatar
    NdH January 5, 2011 at 7:37 pm #

    Rickey: I took extension courses from the University of Wisconsin when I was in the Navy in the Philippines in 1968.

    You took correspondence courses.
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&defl=en&q=define:correspondence+course&sa=X&ei=QA0lTb2IEM-UnQf4rrSiAQ&ved=0CBwQkAE

    You may have taken classes, but today you were educated. :)

    Stanley Ann’s transcript identifies Extension and Correspondence courses separately. The four courses that she completed during the fall and winter semesters are clearly identified as “Extension” courses.

    So was she in Hawaii or Washington from Sept 19th thru Dec 12th 1961?

  41. avatar
    misha January 5, 2011 at 7:42 pm #

    NdH: So was she in Hawaii or Washington from Sept 19th thru Dec 12th 1961?

    She was in Kenya. Here’s proof of that.

  42. avatar
    Scientist January 5, 2011 at 8:18 pm #

    NdH: So was she in Hawaii or Washington from Sept 19th thru Dec 12th 1961?

    You seem to think it’s of monumental importance where somone who is long dead was 50 years ago. Would you care to explain why it matters?

  43. avatar
    Stanislaw January 5, 2011 at 10:00 pm #

    Ruth Petersen says:
    Tuesday, January 4, 2011 at 5:40 PM
    When I wrote to my Congressman, John Shimkus (R-IL), about Barry’s probable ineligibility, he told me to “get a life.” Cute, huh?

    This made me feel awesome inside.

  44. avatar
    Stanislaw January 5, 2011 at 10:03 pm #

    Greg:
    Evidence FAIL!Hearsay has exceptions!

    That’s true. Back in the dayl, my rule for evidence was “Hearsay is admissible, except when it’s not.” It was much easier than having to keep track of the quintillion exceptions to that damn rule.

  45. avatar
    Stanislaw January 5, 2011 at 10:21 pm #

    That should be “day.” I don’t know where that l on the end came from. Sorry about that…guess I had a birther moment.

  46. avatar
    Keith January 6, 2011 at 12:10 am #

    NdH:
    You took correspondence courses.
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&defl=en&q=define:correspondence+course&sa=X&ei=QA0lTb2IEM-UnQf4rrSiAQ&ved=0CBwQkAEYou may have taken classes, but today you were educated.
    Stanley Ann’s transcript identifies Extension and Correspondence courses separately. The four courses that she completed during the fall and winter semesters are clearly identified as “Extension” courses.

    So what?

    Google Define: Extension Course

    Notice that the key description of ‘Extension Course’ is a course that is delivered off campus. The original “Wisconson Idea” in the early 1900’s was to enable farmers and other folks who could not attend classes on campus to continue their education.

    One way to do that is via mail which, of course, is your traditional correspondence course, and now-a-days would be delivered by Internet. A ‘correspondence course’ is one kind of ‘extension course’.

    But that is not the only way to deliver an extension service. Some courses and students may find it convenient to study at home, then show up at campus periodically for exams, or maybe just the final. No correspondence required, and no campus presence required until exam time.

    There are many permutations and the point is to make it convenient for the student. What the individual institution choses to list each method of delivery separately in student records, or lump them all together as ‘extension courses’ or not even reference the delivery method at all is absolutely 100% irrelevant.

    If she was taking an extension course of any kind she was not required on campus, in the state, or even in the country ;-) .

    That is the whole point of an extension course.

  47. avatar
    sfjeff January 6, 2011 at 2:11 am #

    NDH: So which is it, Dr. C? Was Stanley Ann in Washington in Sept 1961 or was she attending social events in Hawaii? When, exactly did Niel Abercrombie see Obama’s parents with little O at the social events?

    I find this odd, because even if Stanley Ann had gone to Seattle that fall, she still would have been around for long enough time for Abernathy to have seen them, and could have returned over the Christmas break.

    “Since the entire plausability of birth in Kenya is based on what a sensible young woman/mother would or would not do; why don’t you tell us about the sensibility of a young woman leaving the support network of her parents and husband to attend college in another state?”

    Which is more implausible? Going off to Kenya, which just ended the Mau Mau war, or a young woman returning to the area where she went to High School and had friends?

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2004334057_obama08m.html
    Obama’s half-sister says Dunham remembered her teen years on Mercer Island so fondly that she wanted to attend college in Seattle. Instead, her parents took her after high school to Hawaii, where Obama was born.

  48. avatar
    The Magic M January 6, 2011 at 4:38 am #

    Scientist:
    You seem to think it’s of monumental importance where somone who is long dead was 50 years ago.Would you care to explain why it matters?

    It’s another “move the goalposts and shift the burden of proof” play, nothing more. Now all of a sudden “we” have to prove to the birthers that Abercrombie was not lying because “they” opened another can of speculation, hearsay and wrong conclusions.

  49. avatar
    ellid January 6, 2011 at 8:02 am #

    NdH:
    You took correspondence courses.
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&defl=en&q=define:correspondence+course&sa=X&ei=QA0lTb2IEM-UnQf4rrSiAQ&ved=0CBwQkAEYou may have taken classes, but today you were educated.
    Stanley Ann’s transcript identifies Extension and Correspondence courses separately. The four courses that she completed during the fall and winter semesters are clearly identified as “Extension” courses.So was she in Hawaii or Washington from Sept 19th thru Dec 12th 1961?

    Who cares? She was in Hawaii on August 4, 1961, when she gave birth to her first child.

  50. avatar
    The Magic M January 6, 2011 at 8:46 am #

    > Who cares?

    Smear campaign. If they can “prove” (by birther standards, not real-world) that “Abercrombie lied when he said he spent time with the Obamas in Sept ’61”, it automatically follows any document he releases must be a forgery and it underscores the “everything he says is a lie” notion.

    Just like the “teach the controversy” campaign attempting to get Intelligent Design into the schools, they somehow believe if they can “create a controversy” or “raise sufficient doubts” about just about everything surrounding the issue, it will actually make a political subject out of it.
    In other words, if you blow enough smoke, you’ll make people believe there’s a fire somewhere, that’s their reasoning.

  51. avatar
    Black Lion January 6, 2011 at 10:08 am #

    From WND….

    ==================quote===================
    It seems the more Abercrombie talks, the more unbelievable his story gets.

    And with good reason.

    The new governor of Hawaii may have been involved in perpetrating a fraud on donors to the Kapi’olani Medical Center when he a read a letter, purportedly from Barack Obama on official White House letterhead, claiming he was born at that hospital. The event was a fundraiser for the hospital. Since this was as close as anyone had ever come to revealing the birthplace of Obama, WND asked the hospital about the letter featured on its website. Kapi’olani refused to confirm it was Obama’s birthplace and removed the image from the website. http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=103633

    Later, hospital officials said they’re sure the letter was genuine because it was produced by then-Rep. Neil Abercrombie.
    ==================quote===================
    From:
    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=247369

    And Ms. Tickly’s response…

    misstickly
    January 5, 2011 at 8:20 pm
    WND can investigate and speculate all they want about Abercrombie, that’s great and all – but I still don’t understand why they haven’t answered this simple yes-or-no question if they have nothing to hide or no one to protect:

    “Did Kapi’olani Hospital present WND the photo of the raised White House seal on cream paper with the false claim that it is a close-up of the incised seal seen on the full letter appearing on white paper?”

    They know the answer, why not tell be forthcoming with it?

    (And, personally, I’d like to hear the rest of the story on how they obtained those photos, too, while they are at it.)

  52. avatar
    Black Lion January 6, 2011 at 10:10 am #

    More BZ nonsense regarding eligibility bills by individual states…

    http://butterdezillion.wordpress.com/2011/01/01/proposed-state-eligibility-bill/

    “I had a discussion about this proposal, beginning with about Post 130 at http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2649720/posts .

    Someone there suggested some potential legal problems, which I’m trying to sort through. I think the Department of Injustice would challenge the Constitutionality of it in any event, just to try to stall so it couldn’t impact the 2012 election. I think there would have to be something in the bill which would make the documentation part of the bill remain in effect regardless of whether the particular procedures to flag problems and determine whether or not the candidate was eligibile were challenged in court.

    Maybe there need to be a pair of bills – one to require the documentation, and for the procedure to determine whether the candidate’s name can be placed on the ballot. I don’t think there would be Constitutional grounds to challenge the requirement for the documentation. The public posting of the documents includes redaction of whatever information is confidential by law. And there is already supposedly a requirement for this kind of documentation before any federal employee, including POTUS, can even receive a federal paycheck. So I don’t think there would be any grounds for the DOJ to sue for unconstitutionality. There shouldn’t be any jurisdictional grounds for the feds to interfere with that part either, because the Constitution gives the states the authority to administer the presidential election.

    So then if the DOJ was going to sue they’d probably sue to stop the other bill, which would say what things should be flagged to cause the candidate to be left off the ballot, which would require judicial action for the candidate to be placed on the ballot. If the DOJ sued by saying the law was unconstitutional for excluding candidates without 2 US citizen parents, then eventually the courts would have to decide whether 2 citizen parents are required for natural born citizenship status. They would probably have to decide whether a person is Constitutionally eligible if their birth records have been tampered with at the DOH where the record was kept. Etc.

    Once the judicial system had decided on which criteria should remain as reasons to exclude someone from the ballot, we would have a functioning definition of “natural born citizen”. And any ruling they made on what procedures can or can’t be followed to determine any individual’s eligibility would tell the state how to amend the law or what a different law would have to say, in order to pass Constitutional muster and go into effect.

    But the reason I’m putting this out into the public is so that others, especially including lawyers hopefully, can help me process how to close any vulnerabilities so we wouldn’t waste time and money on the arguments from the Department of Injustice.

    As long as just the documentation portion was in effect, the SOS would have tremendous pressure to make the right ruling on blatantly ineligible candidates such as Roger Calero, even if the law never specifically said he/she HAD to exclude somebody who wasn’t born in the US. And as long as the transaction records for the BC, passports, etc were required to be disclosed (with confidential information redacted) so it could be seen whether the record had been manipulated or corrupted, it would keep both the HDOH (which has already indirectly confirmed that what they have is amended and therefore not legally valid) and the Department of State (which has already allowed Obama’s passport record to be sanitized) from presenting a corrupted and/or forged record and passing it off as genuine. If the HDOH and DOS had to disclose the transactions taken on Obama’s BC and passport files, the story of who knew what and when would become very clear and there would be immediate public accountability for those who perpetrated this hoax. That would be a strong deterrent against anybody EVER trying this crap again.

    It seems impossible to believe that a judge or AG would refuse to conduct an official investigation of the Passport Office or HDOH if those agencies basically failed an audit on the candidate’s records and it was forced to be publicly disclosed that the records they oversaw were manipulated from within their own departments. Just having that made public would compel an investigation, I would think. I wonder if an investigation could or should be required in such an event.”

  53. avatar
    Black Lion January 6, 2011 at 10:21 am #

    Black Lion: From WND….==================quote===================It seems the more Abercrombie talks, the more unbelievable his story gets.And with good reason.The new governor of Hawaii may have been involved in perpetrating a fraud on donors to the Kapi’olani Medical Center when he a read a letter, purportedly from Barack Obama on official White House letterhead, claiming he was born at that hospital. The event was a fundraiser for the hospital. Since this was as close as anyone had ever come to revealing the birthplace of Obama, WND asked the hospital about the letter featured on its website. Kapi’olani refused to confirm it was Obama’s birthplace and removed the image from the website. http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=103633Later, hospital officials said they’re sure the letter was genuine because it was produced by then-Rep. Neil Abercrombie.==================quote===================From:http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=247369And Ms. Tickly’s response…missticklyJanuary 5, 2011 at 8:20 pmWND can investigate and speculate all they want about Abercrombie, that’s great and all – but I still don’t understand why they haven’t answered this simple yes-or-no question if they have nothing to hide or no one to protect:“Did Kapi’olani Hospital present WND the photo of the raised White House seal on cream paper with the false claim that it is a close-up of the incised seal seen on the full letter appearing on white paper?”They know the answer, why not tell be forthcoming with it? (And, personally, I’d like to hear the rest of the story on how they obtained those photos, too, while they are at it.)

    From Ms. Tickly…

    The As-Yet-Unmentioned’ Third Close-Up from WND

    [UPDATE: Dear WorldNewsDaily – Instead of speculating about whether Gov. Abercrombie has defrauded donors of Kapi'olani Hospital, why not just produce the high resolution original photo of the full view of the letter that the EXIF data indicates exists, and just answer the following simple question:

    Did Kapi’olani Hospital present WND the photo of the raised White House seal on cream paper with the false claim that it is a close-up of the incised seal seen on the full letter appearing on white paper?]

  54. avatar
    JoZeppy January 6, 2011 at 10:45 am #

    NdH: You took correspondence courses.http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&defl=en&q=define:correspondence+course&sa=X&ei=QA0lTb2IEM-UnQf4rrSiAQ&ved=0CBwQkAEYou may have taken classes, but today you were educated. Stanley Ann’s transcript identifies Extension and Correspondence courses separately. The four courses that she completed during the fall and winter semesters are clearly identified as “Extension” courses.So was she in Hawaii or Washington from Sept 19th thru Dec 12th 1961?

    Why do birthers cling to things that really don’t make any difference what-so-ever? Does it really matter if Abercrombie’s memory about exact days is off some 50 years later? Not really. Doesn’t make any difference at all if she was in Hawaii or Washington in mid-September or how she attended classes. How exactly does that effect the President’s eligiblity? The fact that you equate her flying to a third world nation, on the other side of the world, where she doesn’t know a blessed soul, to give birth, with flying after the birth of her child to another state within the Union, a state where she attended high school, to and had friends (who have admitted to watching after a young Barack) shows an unfathomable degree of either intellectual dishonest or stupidity (you pick which). You are quibbiling of issues that have no impact one way or the other.

  55. avatar
    Black Lion January 6, 2011 at 11:03 am #

    Black Lion: More BZ nonsense regarding eligibility bills by individual states…http://butterdezillion.wordpress.com/2011/01/01/proposed-state-eligibility-bill/“I had a discussion about this proposal, beginning with about Post 130 at http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2649720/posts . Someone there suggested some potential legal problems, which I’m trying to sort through. I think the Department of Injustice would challenge the Constitutionality of it in any event, just to try to stall so it couldn’t impact the 2012 election. I think there would have to be something in the bill which would make the documentation part of the bill remain in effect regardless of whether the particular procedures to flag problems and determine whether or not the candidate was eligibile were challenged in court.Maybe there need to be a pair of bills – one to require the documentation, and for the procedure to determine whether the candidate’s name can be placed on the ballot. I don’t think there would be Constitutional grounds to challenge the requirement for the documentation. The public posting of the documents includes redaction of whatever information is confidential by law. And there is already supposedly a requirement for this kind of documentation before any federal employee, including POTUS, can even receive a federal paycheck. So I don’t think there would be any grounds for the DOJ to sue for unconstitutionality. There shouldn’t be any jurisdictional grounds for the feds to interfere with that part either, because the Constitution gives the states the authority to administer the presidential election.So then if the DOJ was going to sue they’d probably sue to stop the other bill, which would say what things should be flagged to cause the candidate to be left off the ballot, which would require judicial action for the candidate to be placed on the ballot. If the DOJ sued by saying the law was unconstitutional for excluding candidates without 2 US citizen parents, then eventually the courts would have to decide whether 2 citizen parents are required for natural born citizenship status. They would probably have to decide whether a person is Constitutionally eligible if their birth records have been tampered with at the DOH where the record was kept. Etc.Once the judicial system had decided on which criteria should remain as reasons to exclude someone from the ballot, we would have a functioning definition of “natural born citizen”. And any ruling they made on what procedures can or can’t be followed to determine any individual’s eligibility would tell the state how to amend the law or what a different law would have to say, in order to pass Constitutional muster and go into effect.But the reason I’m putting this out into the public is so that others, especially including lawyers hopefully, can help me process how to close any vulnerabilities so we wouldn’t waste time and money on the arguments from the Department of Injustice.As long as just the documentation portion was in effect, the SOS would have tremendous pressure to make the right ruling on blatantly ineligible candidates such as Roger Calero, even if the law never specifically said he/she HAD to exclude somebody who wasn’t born in the US. And as long as the transaction records for the BC, passports, etc were required to be disclosed (with confidential information redacted) so it could be seen whether the record had been manipulated or corrupted, it would keep both the HDOH (which has already indirectly confirmed that what they have is amended and therefore not legally valid) and the Department of State (which has already allowed Obama’s passport record to be sanitized) from presenting a corrupted and/or forged record and passing it off as genuine. If the HDOH and DOS had to disclose the transactions taken on Obama’s BC and passport files, the story of who knew what and when would become very clear and there would be immediate public accountability for those who perpetrated this hoax. That would be a strong deterrent against anybody EVER trying this crap again.It seems impossible to believe that a judge or AG would refuse to conduct an official investigation of the Passport Office or HDOH if those agencies basically failed an audit on the candidate’s records and it was forced to be publicly disclosed that the records they oversaw were manipulated from within their own departments. Just having that made public would compel an investigation, I would think. I wonder if an investigation could or should be required in such an event.”

    From BZ’s FR post…

    IMHO, the laws that have been proposed to this point would not change anything. They still leave it up to “somebody”/nobody to decide what documents are needed and what definition of “natural born citizen” to use, which defies the whole checks and balances system.

    We have to have laws which say exactly what documents have to be submitted. We have to have laws which require the documents to be made public and a way for the public to contribute to the accountability so that corrupt bureaucrats CANNOT screw the American public.

    Look at what happened in Hawaii. The Hawaii Elections Office, according to Brian Adams, knew all along that Hawaii has no valid birth certificate for Obama. So they knew there was a problem with his eligibility even if the most lax definition of “natural born” was used. They have no SOS so the Elections Office is the only verifying body they have. Even if the HI DOE were required to see all the documents and it could be absolutely proven that they knew Obama had no valid BC, the laws that have been proposed in other states to this point would leave the public with no way to force the DOE to keep Obama off the HI ballot.

    There also would be no way to force the courts to rule on the definition of “natural born citizen” and thus no functional definition for an SOS to use even if he/she MEANT to be earnest.

    I’ve posted a thread proposing a draft of a bill that could be proposed in the various states, which I believe addresses the legal snags and pitfalls that the Obama coup has revealed. I want to make a few changes, based on input I’ve received, and then I’ll repost it here.

    At this point I don’t think we can count on Congress or the federal government AT ALL. But there is no way that Obama’s thugs can threaten the legislators in every state legislature without making their whole scheme of bribes and threats too well-known and greatly increasing the risk of the threatened people spilling the beans on him. If he has to threaten that many people it would be an open, all-out coup.

    That’s why we need to – immediately – lean on our state legislatures to HOLD THAT LINE. We’ve made huge gains in the states, and that’s where the battle for America is going to play out.

    I’m going to do some revising on what I had posted earlier and get back to you. I especially hope that those who have a different “bent” than mine on the eligibility issue look at what I’ve got and see if they think it addresses the vulnerabilities they feel most keenly right now.

    Basically I want the laws that are passed to

    1) require a process that eliminates from the ballot anybody whose documentation show them ineligible,

    2) enable the people to hold bureaucrats LEGALLY accountable to deal honestly, and

    3) to require the courts to decide eligibility issues according to the standards for evidence and law.

    I’ll get back to you.

    by butterdezillion

  56. avatar
    ellid January 6, 2011 at 11:11 am #

    I wonder why Butterdezillion’s relatives haven’t tried to have her involuntarily committed. The level of obsession and insanity revealed by her posts surely must compromise her ability to function in society.

  57. avatar
    aarrgghh January 6, 2011 at 11:18 am #

    JoZeppy: Why do birthers cling to things that really don’t make any difference what-so-ever?

    every niggling detail on which they can hang doubt allows a birfer to remain a birfer, especially in the face of overwhelming counterevidence. such details are the oxygen of conspiracy theory.

  58. avatar
    The Magic M January 6, 2011 at 11:22 am #

    > to require the courts to decide eligibility issues according to the standards for evidence and law

    I think that would be funny. Thankfully some birther pointed me to the Eisenhower case where the BC was filed (!) 62 years after his birth, based solely on the declaration of the mother where and when he was born (it was a home birth).

    I wonder if, should that birther dream about “codified eligibility proof requirements” ever come true, people who’ve had home births are either excluded because “mother’s testimony is not reliable” (which would probably result in a flurry of lawsuits since this would make a significant part of the population unable to become President if they were not fortunate enough to be born in a hospital with at least a notary or certified birth supervisor present) or they would be included, making the birthers’ “I doubt everything” attitude pretty much moot – even without a Hawaiian BC, Obama would be eligible simply on the testimony of his mother who registered the birth in Hawaii.

    I strongly suspect the latter would come to pass. :)

  59. avatar
    Black Lion January 6, 2011 at 11:40 am #

    More birhter insanity…

    Some interesting and established facts :
    1. The BC from Mombasa has never been discredited. (This document has been public for almost two years, and still stands. It is now in the halls of congress, in the hands of every Senator. No one has been charged with fraud.)

    2. Rahm Emanual did go to Kenya before Obama became president.

    3. Kenyan Parliament members started to sound off , and immediately Obama dodged the press near the Kenyan Embassy for an hour or so.

    4. Aid to Kenya has increased, significantly.

    5. We have never seen an American BC.

    6. His wife brags that Kenya is his home country.

    7. Election official from Hawaii states there is no American BC.

    8. Obama imprisons a man rather than produce a BC. This is the most damning fact to date.

    Facts are starting to accumulate on their own. We may have seen his BC, and it may be in every ones pocket in DC.

    139 posted on Saturday, January 01, 2011 9:17:49 AM by PA-RIVER

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2649720/posts?q=1&;page=151

  60. avatar
    Black Lion January 6, 2011 at 11:40 am #

    ellid: I wonder why Butterdezillion’s relatives haven’t tried to have her involuntarily committed. The level of obsession and insanity revealed by her posts surely must compromise her ability to function in society.

    I have wondered the same thing….Her level of craziness is almost unmatched except by the hardcore birthers….

  61. avatar
    Benji Franklin January 6, 2011 at 11:52 am #

    Black Lion: More BZ nonsense regarding eligibility bills by individual states…

    http://butterdezillion.wordpress.com/2011/01/01/proposed-state-eligibility-bill/

    Dear Black Lion,

    Her “bill” is ludicrous. How could any prospective candidate swear to: “…… the US citizenship status of each parent at the time of the prospective candidate’s birth…..”.?

    Benji Franklin

  62. avatar
    Black Lion January 6, 2011 at 11:55 am #

    More birther blather…It is hilarious how they continue to recycle the same discredited info and make it seem like it was some sort of proof on what they claim….

    Oct 20th 2009 There was a “copy” received from a law firm of the Birth Certificate that Obama’s Grand Mother:
    Madlyn Payne Dunham signed & submitted to Hawaiian Registrator of Birth

    The Birth place: Honolulu with (1) after it for a footnote

    At the bottom:

    1. Birthplace : Kenya; Registered Honolulu HRS. 338-17.8 per Grandmother

    The Hospital: Unknown—Kenya, Africa

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/24001567/Obama-BC-GMom

    (It must be a screen shot because it will not copy/paste)

    This was just dismissed ……. Why??

    183 posted on Saturday, January 01, 2011 8:59:06 PM by ebysan (ebysan)

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2649720/posts?q=1&;page=151

  63. avatar
    Black Lion January 6, 2011 at 11:57 am #

    Benji Franklin: Dear Black Lion,Her “bill” is ludicrous. How could any prospective candidate swear to: “…… the US citizenship status of each parent at the time of the prospective candidate’s birth…..”.?Benji Franklin

    Benji, remember that BZ has no experience with the law and is not dealing fully with reality….So that is why she thinks that this so called law would be constitutional and someone would swear to it…If you follow her crazy posts on FR when someone with legal experience tries to explain to her the many problems with her scenario he is ridiculed by the other inmates of the asylum….

  64. avatar
    Scientist January 6, 2011 at 12:10 pm #

    I wonder if this is anyone we know? By the way, why would Jesus, himself not a natural born citizen (and of questionable parentage), care about this?

    Moths to the Flame
    Josh Marshall | January 6, 2011, 11:43AMWhile Reps were reading the portion of the Constitution covering presidential eligibility (“natural born citizen”, a feral birther disrupted the proceedings from the Gallery, yelling “except obama, except obama. Help us Jesus.”

    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/01/mouths_to_the_flame.php?ref=fpblg

  65. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) January 6, 2011 at 12:24 pm #

    Black Lion: From BZ’s FR post…Look at what happened in Hawaii. The Hawaii Elections Office, according to Brian Adams, knew all along that Hawaii has no valid birth certificate for Obama.by butterdezillion

    Brian Adams? Is she talking about the Canadian singer saying Obama has no birth certificate? What does a canadian know about it?

  66. avatar
    Black Lion January 6, 2011 at 12:32 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Brian Adams? Is she talking about the Canadian singer saying Obama has no birth certificate? What does a canadian know about it?

    I was waiting for someone to catch that…The birther can’t even get their so called “heroes” straight….

  67. avatar
    Scientist January 6, 2011 at 1:23 pm #

    Here is the full story on the birther who disrupted the reading of the Constitution in the House. Her name is Theresa Cao (I haven’t heard her name before).

    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/birther_interrupts_house_reading_of_constitution_yells_help_us_jesus.php?ref=fpb

  68. avatar
    Rickey January 6, 2011 at 1:57 pm #

    NdH:
    You took correspondence courses.
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&defl=en&q=define:correspondence+course&sa=X&ei=QA0lTb2IEM-UnQf4rrSiAQ&ved=0CBwQkAEYou may have taken classes, but today you were educated.

    You are confusing the type of program with the method of delivery of the instruction.

    An extension program is defined as “an educational opportunity provided by colleges and universities to people who are not enrolled as regular students.” I was not enrolled as a regular student at the University of Wisconsin, so the correspondence courses which I took were in fact extension courses.

    That fact that Stanley Ann Dunham Obama was enrolled in extension courses in 1961 means that she was not enrolled as a regular student. The fact is that extension courses can be administered in many ways. Sometimes there are held on satellite campuses, sometimes via the Internet, sometimes via mail.

    In fact, the only conclusion you can draw from her being enrolled in extension courses is that she was not enrolled as a regular student. In addition, the records show that she began her extension courses on 9/19/61, nearly seven weeks after Obama was born. So even if she did go to Washington to take the courses, so what? It proves nothing. Abercrombie could have seen her on multiple occasions between her release from the hospital and September 19.

  69. avatar
    Rickey January 6, 2011 at 2:05 pm #

    Scientist: Here is the full story on the birther who disrupted the reading of the Constitution in the House.Her name is Theresa Cao (I haven’t heard her name before).

    I’ve seem her in pictures taken at some birther events. Check out this one of her blogs – scroll down and you will see her. She clearly is a religious fanatic.

    http://getheavensbailout.blogspot.com/

  70. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) January 6, 2011 at 2:06 pm #

    Black Lion: I was waiting for someone to catch that…The birther can’t even get their so called “heroes” straight….

    I’ve run across a few birthers who repeatedly confuse Obama’s grandmothers. Like when they say that his dead grandmother said she was right there in the delivery room in the hospital in Kenya when Obama was born.

  71. avatar
    ellid January 6, 2011 at 3:36 pm #

    Rickey:
    I’ve seem her in pictures taken at some birther events. Check out this one of her blogs – scroll down and you will see her. She clearly is a religious fanatic.http://getheavensbailout.blogspot.com/

    Reportedly she’s a Lakin groupie and attended his court martial.

  72. avatar
    Black Lion January 6, 2011 at 4:00 pm #

    Good Article…

    As Republicans prepare to decide Michael Steele’s fate, the party has no agenda, a Palin management problem, and a resurgent president. Matt Latimer on the GOP’s pre-2012 punch list.

    Next Friday, a week after the swearing-in of a new GOP congressional majority, the Republican National Committee will select a chairman to guide the party through the 2012 elections.
    At first blush, the lofty post might sound like the political version of a “Yogi Bear” movie: No thinking required. After all, aren’t we fresh off an election where Republicans, despite massive unpopularity, delivered a thrashing so thorough that they won everything but both showcases on The Price Is Right?

    Then again, just ask President Bob Dole how quickly political fortunes can turn. If the new GOP chairman is savvy, he or she will see ample reasons to be nervous this year, for signs are aplenty that 2011 might be for the GOP what college football has been for University of Michigan fans: a baffling, dream-crushing headache that makes you wish the whole thing would end early.
    Headache #1: The Obama Rebound. When Republicans gaze upon Barack Obama, we know who they see: one-term wonder Jimmy Carter, the in-over-his-head know-it-all who suffered through a bad economy, international turmoil, domestic malaise, and bouts with killer rabbits before the voters sent him home. This time it may not turn out that way.
    While Republicans have been choosing color palettes for their plush new offices and dreaming about where they will sit at Mitt Romney’s Cabinet table, their written-off political nemesis has pulled together a string of impressive political victories. Obama lifted the ban on gays in the military when Republicans said it couldn’t happen. He got a nuclear-arms reduction treaty with Russia through the Senate, when that was supposed to be tricky. And he extended the Bush tax cuts when Republicans said he was too ideological to make a deal. The economy is showing signs of life: The Dow is rising; the U.S. automotive industry is reporting robust sales; and Americans are growing more optimistic about their economic futures. Even Obama’s personal approval rating, never as disastrous as advertised, is moving into lukewarm territory, hitting 50 percent in the Gallup poll for the first time since April. (Obama’s predecessor considered the support of half the electorate a rousing mandate.) Depending on which poll one believes, Obama is either tied or well ahead of most of his likely Republican rivals—not bad for a man who is supposedly about to be sent back to Hawaii, Chicago, or wherever it is the Birthers think he came from this week.

    Republicans managed to win seats by simply saying “no” to the Democrats. But can they really govern that way?

    Headache #2: Between Barack and a Hard Place. It is easy to see what a smart White House will do this year: Put forward a host of popular-sounding initiatives and shake their heads sadly when Republicans oppose them. From childrens’ health insurance to education spending to environmental protection to regulations on Big Oil, Democrats will come off as Sandra Bullock to the Republicans’ Jesse James. Shrewdly Obama will go out of his way to work with the GOP on these initiatives offering all sorts of tempting inducements. But, as Admiral Ackbar might say, “It’s a trap!” Each time Republican leaders compromise with the Democrats, the Tea Party will stand ready to blast them for abandoning their principles on spending and smaller government, just as GOP leaders did before. This makes staying on issues offense a top priority for the party. The trouble is that when it comes to issues, the party doesn’t appear to have any.

    Headache #3: The “What Now” Problem. Ask voters what Republicans stand for and they likely will mention two things: tax relief and war fighting. For the moment at least, the Obama White House has preempted both. In addition to extending the Bush tax cuts, the president has ended the Iraq War and endorsed a military “surge” in Afghanistan, winning praise even from his fiercest critics.
    With war and taxes off the table, the GOP faces a far less popular issue agenda for the next two years. Their top priority—the repeal of Obamacare over a certain presidential veto—looks impossible on a good day. Aside from that, what major issue does the GOP tackle next? Immigration reform tore the party in two in the last election. The GOP has shown no capacity for meaningful spending cuts, and no interest whatsoever in trimming one of the government’s biggest spenders: the Pentagon. No effort appears on the horizon to revive the Reagan-era proposal of eliminating Cabinet departments. Few in the GOP, and certainly none in its cautious retread leadership, show any interest in tackling the real fiscal problems facing the country—massive entitlement programs. Without advancing a substantive conservative philosophy, that leaves the Republicans little to do other than manufacture issues—whatever happened to the “ground zero mosque,” by the way?—or play defense. Republicans managed to win seats by simply saying “no” to the Democrats. But can they really govern that way?

    Headache #4: The Palin Peccadillo. It is time to face facts.There is only one Republican able to garner international attention with an offhand utterance or sway any political debate with a single posting on Twitter. You betcha: Sarah Palin is now the party’s top spokesperson, whether Washington likes it or not. (They don’t.) Party leaders have tried ignoring her, belittling her, laughing at her, whispering about her, rolling their eyes, and stomping their feet. It has only made her stronger to her supporters, who think the GOP leadership is a bunch of crusty, out of touch, K Street elitists. (Now that you mention it…) Here’s a thought for the RNC chairman: Why not take Palin seriously? Treat her as a frontrunner for the Republican nomination. Ask her to serve as spokesman on high-profile issues. Fire anyone found to denigrate her. Let the Alaska governor sink or swim: You don’t have much of a choice anyway.

    Headache #5: The Comeback Couple. Perhaps the most worrisome sign for the GOP is what they’ve let slip right past them. Yes, the political Brangelina of our times, the Clintons, have pulled a fast one on their old rivals yet again. While Republicans have trained all their fire on Barack Obama—plastering his face on magazine covers, accusing him of coddling terrorists, and hating America—they have allowed their far more dexterous political opponents to rebuild their standing. It was not long ago that Bill Clinton was considered a disgraced former president who collected scandals like they were antique cars. Now he’s hailed as a “hero” by Time magazine and hugged by the Bush family as a surrogate son. Meanwhile the once-polarizing Hillary not only survived the WikiLeaks scandal, but beat out Oprah Winfrey to become the most admired woman in the United States. AGAIN. (Oprah, call your agent: Sarah Palin beat you, too.) Now Republicans not only face a reviving Obama in 2012, but the likelihood of running against an even more popular, statesmanlike Hillary in 2016 (if not sooner). That is a prospect that should cause any RNC chairman to reach for the aspirin bottle.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-01-05/michael-steeles-fate-and-the-republican-partys-2012-punch-list/2/

  73. avatar
    Freddy N. January 6, 2011 at 4:35 pm #

    She was living in Seattle in August, 1961. See here:

    “Dunham also registered for classes at the University of Washington for both the winter and spring quarters of 1962. (She took extension courses, attending classes at night, during the autumn 1961 and winter 1962 quarters, but in the spring of 1962 switched to a more traditional schedule, attending classes during the day.”

  74. avatar
    Scientist January 6, 2011 at 4:40 pm #

    Freddy N.: She was living in Seattle in August, 1961

    No. The article says she arrived “around the end of August”. So she spent almost all of August 1961 in Hawaii.

  75. avatar
    Majority Will January 6, 2011 at 7:39 pm #

    Freddy N.: She was living in Seattle in August, 1961

    As Scientist pointed out, the historylink.org specifically states, “It appears that they arrived around the end of August 1961, as two of her friends recall Dunham returning to Mercer Island and visiting her and the new baby about this time.”

    As it also states, “Records from the University of Washington confirm that she registered for the autumn 1961 quarter at the University of Washington, which began on September 25, 1961.

    But more importantly it states, “President Barack Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, on August 4, 1961, to Stanley Ann Dunham Obama (1942-1995) and Barack Obama (1936-1982).”

    (emphasis mine)

  76. avatar
    NdH January 6, 2011 at 8:22 pm #

    Dr. C says;

    “The Thinker article confuses the reader by conflating a visit to Washington State soon after Barack Obama was born with her enrollment in classes there the next January, leading the reader to jump to the wrong conclusion that Abercrombie could not have seen baby Obama at social events soon after his birth.”

    The article by Phil Dougherty says;

    “It appears that they arrived around the end of August 1961, as two of her friends recall Dunham returning to Mercer Island and visiting her and the new baby about this time.”

    Dougherty’s article goes on to say;

    “She took extension courses, attending classes at night, during the autumn 1961″

    It looks like, contrary to the claim of Dr. C, that The Thinker (the real one) didn’t conflate anything. They just reported on what somebody who did some actual investigating had found out.

    This significantly narrows the timespan in which Abercrombie could have seen little O. For not only would little O have been with mama in the hospital for about a week after he was born (as was customary back then), he would have left town with mama less than three weeks later. Abercrombies account further disintegrates when you figure out that newborn babies didn’t travel to social events in 1961. They were kept home in order that they not be exposed to ordinary viruses.

    Oh. Before I forget: Extension courses provided by state institutions were not offered outside of the state. State institutions were not permitted to enroll students who were not residing within the state. Military members were provided an exception because their address of record was within the state.

  77. avatar
    misha January 6, 2011 at 8:34 pm #

    NdH: It looks like, contrary to the claim of Dr. C, that The Thinker (the real one) didn’t conflate anything. They just reported on what somebody who did some actual investigating had found out.

    I have been reading your rants, and I don’t care. Ann Dunham was not legally married to BHO Sr., so her child could have been born on Mars, and he would have been a citizen by birth.

    Obama will be re-elected, and Cory Booker will follow. Better get used to it.

  78. avatar
    Scientist January 6, 2011 at 8:47 pm #

    misha: Obama will be re-elected, and Cory Booker will follow

    If he follows with a snow shovel, he will win in a landslide.

  79. avatar
    Scientist January 6, 2011 at 9:00 pm #

    NdH: This significantly narrows the timespan in which Abercrombie could have seen little O

    If you actually read the article, you would see that the Governor said the following: “he “remembers seeing Obama as a child with his parents at social events.”
    Note the word “child”, not “infant”. Since “child” would cover out to at least 10 years old that is quite a window.

    NdH: Abercrombies account further disintegrates when you figure out that newborn babies didn’t travel to social events in 1961. They were kept home in order that they not be exposed to ordinary viruses.

    I am a few years older than the President. I have pictures of myself as an infant with friends of my parents. A “social event” doesn’t necessarily mean a huge party. It can can mean a small gathering with a few friends.

    Perhaps you should invest in a good dictionary.

  80. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) January 6, 2011 at 9:12 pm #

    Scientist:
    If he follows with a snow shovel, he will win in a landslide.

    Good lord and to think Chris Christie is now being touted as a republican nominee

  81. avatar
    misha January 6, 2011 at 9:52 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Good lord and to think Chris Christie is now being touted as a republican nominee

    I can see Camden from my window. It glows.

  82. avatar
    Greg January 6, 2011 at 9:59 pm #

    NdH: This significantly narrows the timespan in which Abercrombie could have seen little O. For not only would little O have been with mama in the hospital for about a week after he was born (as was customary back then), he would have left town with mama less than three weeks later. Abercrombies account further disintegrates when you figure out that newborn babies didn’t travel to social events in 1961. They were kept home in order that they not be exposed to ordinary viruses.

    You forget, though, that this was a woman who, apparently, flew to Africa to have her child, then brought this child back to the United States. She then falsified his birth certificate in order to ensure that he was a natural born citizen. Flying back and forth between Washington and Hawaii on the weekends would be no problem for this globe-trotter. And exposing him to viruses? Please. The flu ain’t got nothing on malaria or dengue fever.

    NdH: Extension courses provided by state institutions were not offered outside of the state. State institutions were not permitted to enroll students who were not residing within the state.

    All states? So, is it a Federal law? No state can offer extension courses to someone living in another state. So, KU, in Lawrence, KS, couldn’t have offered extension courses to someone living in Kansas City, Missouri, but if they got a PO Box in Kansas City, KS, that would be okay?

    Do you have proof that this was the universal rule?

  83. avatar
    Black Lion January 7, 2011 at 9:10 am #

    NdH: Extension courses provided by state institutions were not offered outside of the state. State institutions were not permitted to enroll students who were not residing within the state.

    Really? I thought the U of Washington was a private University and Washington State University was the “state” university….But I could be wrong…

  84. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 7, 2011 at 9:12 am #

    NdH: State institutions were not permitted to enroll students who were not residing within the state.

    That is patently absurd. Anybody who has ever attended a state school can tell you the same. Have you never heard the phrase “out of state tuition?”

    I have placed you in the category of “liar of convenience,” the lowest class of birther.

  85. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 7, 2011 at 9:15 am #

    Black Lion: I thought the U of Washington was a private University

    It’s public.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Washington

  86. avatar
    Black Lion January 7, 2011 at 9:56 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It’s public.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Washington

    OK, thanks….I thought it was similar to PA, where Penn State is public and U of Penn is private….

  87. avatar
    NdH January 7, 2011 at 2:13 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: That is patently absurd. Anybody who has ever attended a state school can tell you the same. Have you never heard the phrase “out of state tuition?”

    Now who’s guilty of conflation? Come into a state and pay them; no problem. Collecting from out of state, from a non-resident; not so easy. Agreements have been created that now permit that to take place, but I have not seen anything like that in the 60s. Programs like the “Academic Common Market” and the “Midwest Student Exchange Program” weren’t even around in the 60s.

    In regard to your ad hominem; I have always found such to be the refuge of an undiciplined mind, but I guess you work with what you have available.

  88. avatar
    Freddy N. January 7, 2011 at 2:38 pm #

    Dunham’ did not take correspondence classes.

  89. avatar
    Black Lion January 7, 2011 at 3:09 pm #

    Freddy N.: Dunham’ did not take correspondence classes.

    Where exactly does it state that they were not correspondence classes? I did not find that declaration on the document. And just as an aside, you do realize that it is from the Spring 1962 semester, which doesn’t exactly bolster your argument…

  90. avatar
    Freddy N. January 7, 2011 at 3:17 pm #

    Look in the bottom right corner, “Extension and Correspondence Courses”. In the fall of 1961 she she took a poly sci and an anthro class. Both are marked with an “X”, for “Extension”, not a “C”, for “Correspondence”. She took two more extension classes winter quarter.

  91. avatar
    Bovril January 7, 2011 at 3:31 pm #

    Sorry, that document doesn’t have footies, a doctors signaturer, I see many obvious Photoshop artifacts, it’s not printed on the right paper, it’s not called the right thing, in other words it a plain forgerey.

  92. avatar
    BatGuano January 7, 2011 at 3:38 pm #

    it does appear to be marked “X”. i’m a bit suspect tho that the line giving the definition of “x” and “c” crosses over two lines. only time that happens in the document. a little sloppy design work there.

    but, i’m willing to take it at face value. still doesn’t change obama’s eligibility status.

    ( would also be curious how the document was obtained and if i could get my own copy for spits-n-giggles ).

  93. avatar
    Majority Will January 7, 2011 at 3:39 pm #

    NdH: In regard to your ad hominem; I have always found such to be the refuge of an undiciplined mind, but I guess you work with what you have available.

    Your objection to ad hominem is to respond with ad hominem?

    How’s that working out for you?

  94. avatar
    Scientist January 7, 2011 at 3:41 pm #

    Can someone help me out here? Are you guys actually arguing about what classes someone who has been dead for 15 years took 50 years ago? Some lay people accuse scientists of sometimes being arcane, but this is orders of magnitude more arcane than anything I have ever seem in my professional career.

    What possible relevance is this? Barack Obama was born on August 4, 1961. The semester at U Washington started September 19, 1961. What possible relevance does his mother’s whereabouts 6 weeks later have?

  95. avatar
    Majority Will January 7, 2011 at 3:41 pm #

    NdH: the refuge of an undiciplined mind

    Also, you misspelled undisciplined and another irony meter just exploded.

  96. avatar
    Majority Will January 7, 2011 at 3:50 pm #

    Freddy N.: She was living in Seattle in August, 1961. See here:

    Once again and more importantly, the link YOU provided states, “President Barack Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, on August 4, 1961, to Stanley Ann Dunham Obama (1942-1995) and Barack Obama (1936-1982).

    Did you skim over that part?

    Born in Hawaii on on August 4, 1961 = Natural Born Citizen and meets age requirements to be eligible for the Presidency of the United States according to Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the U.S. Constitution.

    It’s straight and simple enough for even the hardcore birther to grasp. Just kidding, of course. Birthers aren’t actually interested in the truth. Or they’re incapable. Either way.

  97. avatar
    Freddy N. January 7, 2011 at 3:54 pm #

    Majority Will: Go back and read the post we are discussing.

  98. avatar
    Scientist January 7, 2011 at 3:58 pm #

    Freddy N.: Go back and read the post we are discussing

    The post says she arrived in Seattle in “late August” If you understand English that means that for most of August, she was elsewhere (i.e., Hawaii).

  99. avatar
    Black Lion January 7, 2011 at 4:02 pm #

    Scientist: The post says she arrived in Seattle in “late August” If you understand English that means that for most of August, she was elsewhere (i.e., Hawaii).

    And it never states whether or not she went back to HI at any time during any semester to see her husband and friends there…..The bottom line is that you are attempting to dispute something by using documentation that does not entirely support your contention….The bottom line is this…You were not there and it is irrelevant to the fact that the President was born in HI on August 4, 1961. Again if you dispute that then show us some proof that she was elsewhere on that specific date, not somewhere 6 weeks later…

  100. avatar
    JoZeppy January 7, 2011 at 4:11 pm #

    NdH: Now who’s guilty of conflation? Come into a state and pay them; no problem. Collecting from out of state, from a non-resident; not so easy. Agreements have been created that now permit that to take place, but I have not seen anything like that in the 60s. Programs like the “Academic Common Market” and the “Midwest Student Exchange Program” weren’t even around in the 60s.In regard to your ad hominem; I have always found such to be the refuge of an undiciplined mind, but I guess you work with what you have available.

    So you haven’t seen anything like it in the 60, but have you even looked? Can you show that it didn’t exist? Of course not. How about coming back when you have something called proof. And not that it remotely matters (again, why are we stressing about a vague statement of seeing Obama as a child…it doesn’t prove anything, really), how difficult is to take payment in advance? You know, people did write checks in the 1960s. There were banks….and an educational institution refuse to give you a grade or transcripts, or degree if you refuse to pay, so it’s not like a school is helpless in collecting from out of state students (correspondence schools have been around since the 19th century…I think they’ve figured out since then).

    And again, big deal? It’s not like he said he saw baby Barack on a particular day. There’s still plenty of time for him to have seen baby B.

  101. avatar
    Rickey January 7, 2011 at 4:27 pm #

    NdH:
    Now who’s guilty of conflation? Come into a state and pay them; no problem. Collecting from out of state, from a non-resident; not so easy.

    Are you serious? Students who aren’t on scholarship pay their tuition and fees in advance (or at least they did in the sixties and seventies). “Collecting” isn’t an issue when you already have the cash in the till.

  102. avatar
    Majority Will January 7, 2011 at 4:30 pm #

    Freddy N.: Majority Will: Go back and read the post we are discussing.

    I’m not an idiot birther and understand exactly what is being discussed.

    You can shove your teenage patronizing.

    Your insistence on moving the goalposts seals your fate as a birther who is incapable of understanding the truth.

    You have no more first hand knowledge of Abercrombie’s relationship with Obama’s parents than you do Reverend Wright’s former relationship with the President of the United States.

    Your senseless, irrelevant speculations are typical of the politically motivated hatred and confirmation bias stupidity of many hardcore birthers.

    Can you grasp the concept of irrelevance?

  103. avatar
    Freddy N. January 7, 2011 at 4:40 pm #

    “Your senseless, irrelevant speculations”

    I provided a link to an article with verified sources from History Link (a “non-profit tax-exempt corporation guided by a distinguished board of scholars, educators, and community leaders”) which refutes a specific claim in the subject post. Do you have anything of substance to add to this discussion?

  104. avatar
    Majority Will January 7, 2011 at 4:52 pm #

    Freddy N.: “Your senseless, irrelevant speculations”I provided a link to an article with verified sources from History Link (a “non-profit tax-exempt corporation guided by a distinguished board of scholars, educators, and community leaders”) which refutes a specific claim in the subject post. Do you have anything of substance to add to this discussion?

    Now you’re just babbling, idiot birther. We’ve pointed out and confirmed your problems with read comprehension already in previous posts.

    Not that it really matters, but explain to the class the amount of time between August 4th and as the historylink.org specifically states, “It appears that they arrived around the end of August 1961.”

    Abercrombie said, “Maybe I’m the only one in the country that could look you right in the eye right now and tell you, ‘I was here when that baby was born.”

    So birther boy, other than you implying that he’s lying, where’s your credible evidence that this isn’t true?

  105. avatar
    Freddy N. January 7, 2011 at 5:00 pm #

    From the post: “The Thinker article confuses the reader by conflating a visit to Washington State soon after Barack Obama was born with her enrollment in classes there the next January”

    Dunham was taking night classes at the University of Washington in the fall of 1961.

    “Now you’re just babbling, idiot birther. We’ve pointed out and confirmed your problems with read comprehension already in previous posts”

    You’ve done a lot of name calling and hand waving.

    “Abercrombie said, “Maybe I’m the only one in the country that could look you right in the eye right now and tell you, I was here when that baby was born.”

    So birther boy, other than you implying that he’s lying, where’s your credible evidence that this isn’t true”

    Abercrombie has admitted he wasn’t there when Obama was born.

  106. avatar
    Scientist January 7, 2011 at 5:09 pm #

    Freddy N.: Abercrombie has admitted he wasn’t there when Obama was born

    But I was. He cried when the doctor slapped his butt. This is fact.

  107. avatar
    Freddy N. January 7, 2011 at 5:14 pm #

    Doctor? I heard he was born in a manger.

  108. avatar
    BatGuano January 7, 2011 at 5:21 pm #

    Freddy N.: Abercrombie has admitted he wasn’t there when Obama was born.

    “there” at the hospital….. no according to ambercrombie. but “there” being the island of oahu….. yes.

  109. avatar
    BatGuano January 7, 2011 at 5:36 pm #

    Freddy N.: Doctor? I heard he was born in a manger.

    would one magi signature be sufficiant or would you demand all three.

  110. avatar
    misha January 7, 2011 at 6:03 pm #

    Freddy N.: Doctor? I heard he was born in a manger.

    The physician who delivered Obama was Doctor Tari. Everyone called him Doc Tari.

  111. avatar
    Majority Will January 7, 2011 at 6:25 pm #

    Freddy N.: Doctor? I heard he was born in a manger.

    Why would a woman in labor try to squeeze into the livestock’s feed trough in order to give birth?

    It sounds unnecessary, inconvenient and very painful.

    Placed in a manger as a cradle once born?

    Birthers are such clueless idiots.

  112. avatar
    Majority Will January 7, 2011 at 6:38 pm #

    Freddy N.: You’ve done a lot of name calling and hand waving.

    And you caught yourself lying.

    Here as in on the island of Oahu and ready to visit when Ann was ready?

    You avoid explaining to the class the amount of time between August 4th and as the historylink.org specifically states, “It appears that they arrived around the end of August 1961.”

    You said, “She was living in Seattle in August, 1961.”

    What you left out what was in your link – that she was still in Hawaii for most of the month of August.

    Your pedantic b.s. is puerile and pointless and your incessant dishonesty is obvious.

    You also refuse to admit that your link states, “President Barack Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, on August 4, 1961, to Stanley Ann Dunham Obama (1942-1995) and Barack Obama (1936-1982).”

    You are a birther through and through.

    Ann Dunham and her newborn son lived in Oahu from August 4th to the end of August according to your link.

    From your source, which according to you, is a link to an article with verified sources from History Link (a “non-profit tax-exempt corporation guided by a distinguished board of scholars, educators, and community leaders”).

    Now go grab your goalposts.

  113. avatar
    G January 7, 2011 at 10:39 pm #

    Scientist: Can someone help me out here? Are you guys actually arguing about what classes someone who has been dead for 15 years took 50 years ago? Some lay people accuse scientists of sometimes being arcane, but this is orders of magnitude more arcane than anything I have ever seem in my professional career.

    What possible relevance is this? Barack Obama was born on August 4, 1961. The semester at U Washington started September 19, 1961. What possible relevance does his mother’s whereabouts 6 weeks later have?

    Agreed!

  114. avatar
    aarrgghh January 8, 2011 at 7:11 am #

    Scientist: What possible relevance is this? Barack Obama was born on August 4, 1961. The semester at U Washington started September 19, 1961. What possible relevance does his mother’s whereabouts 6 weeks later have?

    see my comment upthread.

  115. avatar
    Northland10 January 8, 2011 at 10:40 am #

    BatGuano: Freddy N.: Doctor? I heard he was born in a manger.

    would one magi signature be sufficiant or would you demand all three

    Since scripture does not actually state the number of Maji, they can always move the goalposts and claim that there need to be even more signatures. Since Matthew does not give us the number, I suppose he must be hiding something, or it was “scrubbed” by the traitorous, liberal, commie-marxist foreign regime.

  116. avatar
    Majority Will January 8, 2011 at 11:29 am #

    aarrgghh:
    every niggling detail on which they can hang doubt allows a birfer to remain a birfer, especially in the face of overwhelming counterevidence. such details are the oxygen of conspiracy theory.

    Exactly right.

  117. avatar
    Greg January 8, 2011 at 1:09 pm #

    Majority Will:
    Exactly right.

    Some times, it helps to step back and put the new, niggling, detail into the big picture. Absurdity often results.

    So, it’s now crucial that Ann was in Washington so she couldn’t possibly have met with Abercrombie at a social gathering with a child-Obama.

    This is a woman, birthers would have us believe, that flew, pregnant, to Africa, then flew back to America with an infant, stopping in Hawaii to forge government documents. She’s going to observe niceties like not taking an infant to social gatherings?

    A more rational, less conspiratorial-minded individual might point out that human memory is fallible and that Abercrombie might be remembering something that happened at a later date, or with one of Obama’s sisters.

    (NB: The account that places Ann in Washington at the “end of August” is based on the memories of two friends who were relatively young at the time:

    It appears that they arrived around the end of August 1961, as two of her friends recall Dunham returning to Mercer Island and visiting her and the new baby about this time.

    You don’t have to be Perry Mason to think of ways to poke holes in that. And, yes, her classes started on September 25, but do we have records showing she was there on the first day of class? etc.

    By the way, Stanley Ann seems pretty amazing! Mom on her own, night classes, 3 As and 3 Bs.)

  118. avatar
    Majority Will January 8, 2011 at 1:53 pm #

    Greg:
    Some times, it helps to step back and put the new, niggling, detail into the big picture. Absurdity often results.
    So, it’s now crucial that Ann was in Washington so she couldn’t possibly have met with Abercrombie at a social gathering with a child-Obama.
    This is a woman, birthers would have us believe, that flew, pregnant, to Africa, then flew back to America with an infant, stopping in Hawaii to forge government documents. She’s going to observe niceties like not taking an infant to social gatherings?
    A more rational, less conspiratorial-minded individual might point out that human memory is fallible and that Abercrombie might be remembering something that happened at a later date, or with one of Obama’s sisters.
    (NB: The account that places Ann in Washington at the “end of August” is based on the memories of two friends who were relatively young at the time:
    You don’t have to be Perry Mason to think of ways to poke holes in that. And, yes, her classes started on September 25, but do we have records showing she was there on the first day of class? etc.By the way, Stanley Ann seems pretty amazing! Mom on her own, night classes, 3 As and 3 Bs.)

    Well stated.

    “By the way, Stanley Ann seems pretty amazing!”

    Also, exactly right.

  119. avatar
    Slartibartfast January 9, 2011 at 12:56 am #

    Greg: By the way, Stanley Ann seems pretty amazing!

    That’s one of the things I’ve learned from birtherwatching – Dr. Dunham was a very impressive woman. According to Wikipedia:

    While at the Ford Foundation, she developed a model of microfinance which is now the standard in Indonesia, a country that is a world leader in micro-credit systems.

    and

    Anthropologist Michael Dove described [Dr. Dunham's] dissertation as “a classic, in-depth, on-the-ground anthropological study of a 1,200-year-old industry”

    To me the contempt and disrespect shown by the birthers to the president’s mother is a clear indication of just how pathetic they truly are.

  120. avatar
    ellid January 9, 2011 at 8:47 am #

    BatGuano:
    “there” at the hospital….. no according to ambercrombie. but “there” being the island of oahu….. yes.

    No one but the doctor and nurses were allowed in the delivery room in 1961. Freddy seems unaware of this, which is not surprising given that he’s fallen for the birther nonsense.

  121. avatar
    Majority Will January 9, 2011 at 8:55 pm #

    Slartibartfast:
    That’s one of the things I’ve learned from birtherwatching – Dr. Dunham was a very impressive woman.According to Wikipedia:
    and
    To me the contempt and disrespect shown by the birthers to the president’s mother is a clear indication of just how pathetic they truly are.

    Which is why I hope Lakin the birther idiot’s prison window is facing SW towards Wichita, KS.

  122. avatar
    Black Lion January 9, 2011 at 9:44 pm #

    And from the Post and Fail….Usual nonsense…

    “(Jan. 8, 2010) — Are you kidding? For God’s sake, my fellow Americans, that’s how we got here. Don’t you get it? Sure! While we negotiated, they regulated! While we cooperated, they indoctrinated! While we capitulated, they propagated.

    When they were in power, which has been for way too long, they did whatever they pleased, in disdain of the constitutional limits placed upon them. When we were in power they cried for bipartisanship. If we took actions to save the country from bankruptcy, they called us baby killers, child “starvers” and abject racists. If we said some of our institutions and unfunded liabilities would send us headlong into bankruptcy, they said we were crazy. If we challenged their policies, they called us uneducated, irrational and radical.

    For over 100 years they have inched us closer and closer to an Absolute Democrat Monarchy. They were able to achieve it by our side negotiating, cooperating, capitulating and even worse, appeasing. In that 100 years they bought off huge segments of the American people with “free” gifts from the public treasury (our money) and made those segments weak, dependent on government and loyal voters of the “gift” providers, or all-powerful, like big business, big banks and big unions. As each decade went by and we negotiated, cooperated and capitulated, they took our freedom and stomped on it. They took our liberty and called it nonsense. They shredded our constitution and called it meaningless. They robbed us of our wealth and called it compassion. They diluted our sovereignty and called it necessary to the One World Order.
    ………

    How to plug the leak is simple. How to implement the plug is problematic. It seems that our once-great Republic is now occupied by weak, dependent and loyal, voting subjects of the Absolute Democrat Monarchy and won’t bite the hand that feeds them. While we negotiated, cooperated and capitulated with the other side for the last 100 years, they were busy regulating, indoctrinating and propagating their failed ideology and convinced millions of naive individuals, who forgot that freedom comes at a price, that the “light,” the “way” and the “path” are that of a powerful, centralized, nanny government. They opted for security rather than liberty. They opted for a free handout instead of the harder path of self-reliance, responsibility and independence. Many of those Americans salivated at the chance to get something for free, their pride and honor evaporating in the false glory of a government-sponsored gold rush.
    ……………

    We say, either it’s freedom, or it’s war. Not a shooting war, but a war between vastly different ideologies, where one of them is more right than the other and in keeping with the tenets of American freedom and liberty. If we have any hope of surviving as a free nation, there is only one choice to make: individual freedom. The only other choice is collective enslavement, a condition brought on by too much negotiating, cooperating and capitulating to the other side.”

    And in the comments….

    Kathleen Gotto says:
    Sunday, January 9, 2011 at 6:00 PM
    Yes! I have been thinking about a class-action suit on obama’s ineligibility for a long time and even had written one of the attorneys who had filed numerous petitions of grievances against the government, but never to my knowledge, did he file a class-action suit. He never even bothered to respond to my e-mail. If there is an attorney (or law firm) out there who would take this on pro bono and believes a class-action suit could actually be adjudicated, then I would help in any way possible. We would need to set up a fund to help with legal expenses and I would help to do that or help research or whatever else I could do.

    How about it? Any takers?

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/01/08/its-either-freedom-or-its-war/

  123. avatar
    Black Lion January 9, 2011 at 9:56 pm #

    More Post and Fail sedition….

    “Every concerned American should read carefully the following article posted at The Daily Pen in which the following statement is made:

    The legal tactics employed by the Obama machine are specifically designed…to discourage challenges to Obama’s fraudulent occupation of the White House…

    In my opinion, the most important statement in the whole article appears in fact number 13 in a list of twenty-eight indisputable facts associated with the 2008 Hawaii presidential election fraud:

    the Democratic National Committee, headed by Nancy Pelosi, committed election fraud and violated the Constitutional right(s) of the people of the state of Hawaii (and all Americans).

    There is no conceivable criminal act more serious than election fraud of this magnitude, such that the very essence of the protections from tyranny so carefully incorporated into the Constitution by its authors were intentionally, and in a conspiratorially subversive manner, bypassed and compromised.

    At a minimum, this is an extremely serious violation of the oath of office sworn to by every government official, office-holder, and employee.”

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/01/09/how-many-people-committed-fraud-to-get-obama-into-the-white-house/

    ch says:
    Sunday, January 9, 2011 at 9:06 PM
    Perhaps retired mlitary, unarmed, in full uniform, on 24-hour watch, with a formal change of the guard, marching silently back and forth in front of the White House, The Congress, and the Supreme Court.

    Silence is powerful. They could have a sign and flyers that say:

    ********************************
    Uphold the US Constitution

    We are the US Retired Military, and We Will March to Uphold and Protect the Constitution, and You Will See Us Here Marching Unarmed for 24 Hours a Day Until All Birth, College, and Travel Papers are Released, and a Natural Born President, Proven to be Born in the US, with Two Citizen Parents, Sits in the Office of Presdent.

    ***************

    Since Gandhi freed India with passive resistance, and did not look to the media or the courts to free them, the same tactic could very well apply here.

    David F LaRocque says:
    Sunday, January 9, 2011 at 9:43 PM
    Could somebody put together a list of retired military officers in order of rank?

    In accordance with military procedures and tradition, the responsibility for command action when under attack falls upon the most senior line officer present. We need to find out who that is, then if he refuses, we go to the next most senior, until we find the officer needed by the country to handle this crisis.

    thinkwell says:
    Sunday, January 9, 2011 at 8:18 PM
    If we are to get our country back, this is no time for timidity. Those Americans who have committed treason (Pelosi is the first and most egregious example to come to mind, but there are certainly many others) must be justly punished to the full extent of the law – no more, but no less.

    As distasteful as this may be, we must carry out this duty without misguided mercy or clemency of any kind. It may be difficult and wrenching, but, those duly convicted per the rule of law, must receive the fair and just penalties, up to and including life imprisonment or death. Preservation of and respect for our Constitutional republic demands no less. No more excuses. No more bending the limits. Those who are found guilty of treason must pay the full price that their treachery has wrought or our laws mean nothing.

    I believe the majority of my fellow Americans who love our country would demand no less. Unseat and punish the usurper and his enablers, protect the Constitution and preserve the rule of law.

  124. avatar
    Benji Franklin January 10, 2011 at 12:13 am #

    Black Lion: In accordance with military procedures and tradition, the responsibility for command action when under attack falls upon the most senior line officer present.

    Uh, Black Lion, uh…… Let’s say that I was turned down for enlistment, twice. If that makes me the most senior line officer, is there some way I could get my present before the responsibility for command action falls upon it?

    BenjiFranklin

  125. avatar
    The Magic M January 10, 2011 at 5:17 am #

    > We need to find out who that is, then if he refuses, we go to the next most senior, until we find the officer needed by the country to handle this crisis.

    So if they really tried that, they would probably end up with a low rank who would then have a hard time convincing those below him that the order “arrest the president and the joint chiefs of staff and everyone else in rank above me” is legal… *faceplant*

    Of course they’re still dreaming they won’t have to search long and will find a four-star general or an admiral who will command 20,000 soldiers to… ah, wait, that would be a military coup, right? *sigh*

  126. avatar
    Black Lion January 10, 2011 at 12:44 pm #

    More guilt by association spewed by WND….

    ALERT! ALERT!
    BREAKING NEWS

    Arizona shooter was trained by Barack Obama and Bill Ayers.
    **********************************************************

    Bill Ayers, communist provided Arizona shooter’s curriculum?
    High school part of learning community funded jointly by Obama and domestic terrorist
    ——————————————————————————–
    Posted: January 10, 2011
    9:59 am Eastern

    By Aaron Klein
    2011 WorldNetDaily

    Jared Lee Loughner, the suspected gunman in Saturday’s Arizona shooting, attended a high school that is part of a network in which teachers are trained and provided resources by a liberal group founded by Weatherman terrorist Bill Ayers and funded by President Obama, WND has learned.

    The group, Small Schools Workshop, has been led by a former top communist activist who is an associate of Ayers.

    Obama provided the group with funds in the 1990s when he worked at an education reform group alongside Ayers.

    Loughner attended Mountain View High School, which is part of Arizona’s Morana Unified School District.

    Since 2003, Mountain View has been part of what is known as the Smaller Learning Community, a network of schools that have been restructured to create a more personalized learning environment where students often have the same teachers and fellow students from grade to grade.

    (Story continues below)
    Read more: Bill Ayers, communist provided Arizona shooter’s curriculum? http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=249429#ixzz1AeSE2500

    And in the comments over at the Dr Kate cesspool….

    Wild Bill
    January 10, 2011 at 10:06 am
    I don’t think anyone should be surprised that americans are taking things into their own hands after being ignored by the government, the courts, and the congress for so long. Sure they’ll say this guy is derranged, but I really wonder if he just wasnt’ fed up and decided to take a little western justice out on the dumbocrat or the judge or both for ignoring the eligibility issue and other real issues. Of course we cant’ condone such violence and I pray for the innocent bystanders (although the “innocent” girl who was shot was recently elected to her school counsel and was there to learn about politics – brainwashing much? she should be learing from some real patriots, not people inside the belly of the beast – still, it’s sad, it probably wasn’t too late for her to learn about our real consititutional rights).

    mary kay lafore
    January 10, 2011 at 10:29 am
    Has anyone considered the fact that Gabby Giffords may have
    intended to seek higher office in 2012 as a moderate democrat?

    http://drkatesview.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/obama-is-responsible-for-the-cult-of-violence-embraced-by-his-supporters/

  127. avatar
    ballantine January 10, 2011 at 12:58 pm #

    Black Lion: More guilt by association spewed by WND….ALERT! ALERT!BREAKING NEWSArizona shooter was trained by Barack Obama and Bill Ayers.**********************************************************Bill Ayers, communist provided Arizona shooter’s curriculum?High school part of learning community funded jointly by Obama and domestic terrorist——————————————————————————–Posted: January 10, 20119:59 am EasternBy Aaron Klein 2011 WorldNetDaily Jared Lee Loughner, the suspected gunman in Saturday’s Arizona shooting, attended a high school that is part of a network in which teachers are trained and provided resources by a liberal group founded by Weatherman terrorist Bill Ayers and funded by President Obama, WND has learned. The group, Small Schools Workshop, has been led by a former top communist activist who is an associate of Ayers.

    .

    Ever listen to this guy on the radio. He has a show on WABC on sunday afternoon. Just rants about how evil Islam and Obama are.

    Over at Citizen Wells, there is a bit of a fight going on as some think the accusations by some posters that Obama was directly involved in the killings is a little too much even for them. Hard to make this stuff up. Here is the article they were basing these claims on:

    http://www.eutimes.net/2011/01/top-us-federal-judge-assassinated-after-threat-to-obama-agenda/

    These people just can’t help themselves.

  128. avatar
    Black Lion January 10, 2011 at 4:09 pm #

    Ballantine, you would be corrrect….Look at some of the comments from the Citizen Wells article…

    Free Speech | January 10, 2011 at 9:43 am | Contact your congressman, senators, County Sheriff, DA, State Legislators, Governor, and County Grand Jury Foreman and demand that they indict and prosecute BO and all his local co-conspirators for the Murders of Opponents of the BO regime, Birth Certificate Forgeries, TSA Sexual Assaults & Illegal Searches, Voter Fraud, Identity Theft, Illegal Foreign Campaign Contributions, Poisoning of the Gulf of Mexico, Embezzlement of Government funds, WikiLeaks etc.

    Zach Jones | January 10, 2011 at 10:40 am | This is a comment on freerepublic:

    To: woofie
    From facebook for a Jared Laughner from Tuscon, Arizona, the man named as the shooter. People who inspire him include Barack Obama, Saul Alinsky, Fidel Castro, Che Guevara, Huo Chavez, Noam Chomsky, Mao Tse-tung, Joseph Stalin, and Yassir Arafat. He writes “Fight the Right! Obama and the Progressives will overcome the tyrrany of big business and the racist Tea Party.

    BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!

    21 posted on Saturday, January 08, 2011 5:53:22 PM by Scanian

    Free Speech | January 10, 2011 at 10:41 am | Even more curious are Loughner’s ‘heroes.’ He mentions by name Venezuelan Communist Hugo Chavez, Latin American Communist mass-murderer Che Guevara, American Socialist revolutionary Saul Alinsky, and even Barack Obama.

    But someone actually calls out CW for posting an article that he could not source…

    jc | January 10, 2011 at 10:28 am | CW, I am trying to source this articles author. Who is Sorcha Faal? It keeps linking back to whatdoesitmean.com. It this for real? I am pretty sure years ago this Sorcha Faal was found to be an American guy doomer hoaxster just making and stirring it up. Does anyone else know?

    jc | January 10, 2011 at 10:59 am | Free Speech, you are wrong. This BO disinformation name calling crap should stop. Look at the European Union Times source at the bottom of the article. Push and see where it goes. Do a little basic research yourself before spewing your opinions in my direction. I am only asking a question of who authored this crap. Trying to filter this crap is becoming more difficult and when is it is found good people should point it out.

    http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1438.htm

    January 9, 2011

    Top US Federal Judge Assassinated After Threat To Obama Agenda

    By: Sorcha Faal, and as reported to her Western Subscribers

    citizenwells | January 10, 2011 at 11:34 am | jc, et al.
    I didn’t drop any damn ball.
    I simply quoted an article.
    Perhaps you desire that I hide them?

    jc | January 10, 2011 at 11:35 am | Thanks cabby! I am not interested in what FS has to say on the subject. I was pointing out to CW that he may not want to be associated with this crap by posting this current thread. CW, did you really mean to post this article by Sorcha Faal? Is it a mistake?

    jc | January 10, 2011 at 11:47 am | citizenwells, really?
    You didn’t just quote an article. You put it out there without the true byline. No one is asking you to hide articles but if you are going to throw it out there it would be nice to have all the facts, including who to attribute it to, so we can all see the whole picture.

    How credible is the European Times if they publish this Sorcha Faal crap?

    Crystal | January 10, 2011 at 12:03 pm | I don’t often post here for various reasons (probably similar to those cited by jbjd), but I am concerned for the tone of this blog, primarily what is written by the blogger known as Free Speech. This blogger has done more to divide the posters on this site than any other blogger on any blog I visit. Now FS is claiming that BHO is responsible for the Tucson murders. Where is the evidence? It is one thing to give your opinion, but it is another thing to make a statement without evidence. I’m sure FS will call me an obot, but nothing could be further from the truth and I really don’t care what FS says. My only point here is that FS is definitely doing his/her best to undermine this blog, not only by his/her wild accusations against fellow bloggers, but also clogging up the blog with repeated posts, repeated blogs, repeated videos, and repeated vitriol. The mental state of a person that would do these things on a daily basis must be questioned.

  129. avatar
    The Magic M January 11, 2011 at 8:26 am #

    > Over at Citizen Wells, there is a bit of a fight going on as some think the accusations by some posters that Obama was directly involved in the killings is a little too much even for them.

    It took some time, but the nice paint is coming off the “defenders of the Constitution” birther masterminds fast and they show themselves as the utterly crazy conspiracy loons they really are.
    Those who were just too gullible to fall for their nonsense will soon part ways…

    Always fascinating to see how even the fringe cannot agree to disagree and creates factions (“we need to see the BC” vs. “no, he fails the two citizen parent theory anyway” or “Congress is simply lazy” vs. “no, the entire government is a huge conspiracy since 1794 – and chemtrails!” etc.) that are, or at some point will be, opposing and censoring each other just like they’re doing it with the sane people right now.

  130. avatar
    Black Lion January 11, 2011 at 2:31 pm #

    Farah Lies About Lakin’s Crime, Orly Taitz’s Fine
    Topic: WorldNetDaily

    In yet another birther rant in the form of his Jan. 8 WorldNetDaily column, Joseph Farah gooses the martyrdom of Terrence Lakin, misleadingly claiming that he “is serving a prison sentence for simply asking for proof of Obama’s eligibility before being deployed to a foreign war.” Wrong: As we’ve pointed out, Lakin is serving a prison sentence for disobeying orders, and if every soldier who received orders challenged the legitimacy of them, as Farah seems to want, the entire system of military discipline would break down.

    Then Farah claims: “Attorneys who have brought lawsuits demanding proof Obama is a ‘natural born citizen’ as the Constitution requires have been fined for following the legal remedies.” That’s not true at all. Only one birther attorney has been fined — Orly Taitz — and it was not for “following the legal remedies” but, rather, for willfully violating the rules of the court system and for filing frivolous claims — the facts of which, to our knowledge, WND has never accrately reported.

    Farah can’t even relay the simplest of facts without trying to twist them to fit his Obama-hating agenda. Is it any wonder his website cannot be trusted to tell the truth?

    http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/blog/

  131. avatar
    KenyanBornObamAcorn January 13, 2011 at 1:37 pm #

    FogBlow can’t take the heat…hahahahha

    THe BANNED me eeeewwwwwwwww, wah friggin wah

  132. avatar
    obsolete January 15, 2011 at 12:34 am #

    You were banned for spamming and telling members to “f*ck off” and called one a “ska nk”. How is that a victory in your small, diseased mind?
    And please, point me to one birther site that will allow me to post over 200 times.