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Mystery resignation at Hawaii Department of Health

Newly appointed interim director of the Hawaii Department of Health, Dr. Neal Palafox, has abruptly resigned for reasons not yet disclosed, according to CBS News.

Birthers will say that this is proof that there is something wrong about Obama’s birth certificate. I speculate that it is a personal dispute with the Governor over now to spell “Neil.” Others cite rumors that Dr. Palafox is under investigation for insurance fraud.

133 Responses to Mystery resignation at Hawaii Department of Health

  1. avatar
    Black Lion January 28, 2011 at 4:39 pm #

    WND Pretending It Didn’t Get Burned On Birther Claim
    Topic: WorldNetDaily

    WorldNetDaily is doing its best to pretend it didn’t get burned when its story that radio celebrity gossip Mike Evans claimed that Hawaii Gov. Neil Abercrombie told him that he couldn’t find a copy of Obama’s birth certificate in Hawaii state records went bad.

    First, WND pretended it didn’t happen. While it linked to the FoxNews.com article in which Evans retracted his claim, for a good while today that article appeared on its front page below Jerome Corsi’s original faulty story and a separate version of it on Fox Nation:

    In other words, WND played up the faulty story over the correct version.

    Then, WND cobbled together a follow-up written by Bob Unruh, in which Evans vowed on a radio show featuring Jerome Corsi — who wrote the original article uncritically repeating Evans’ claims without bothering to fact-check them — that he would talk to Abercrombie about it.

    Meanwhile, Corsi’s original article remains live and uncorrected, nor does it offer a link to Evans’ retraction.

    But that’s the way WND rolls — it generally doesn’t correct anything, no matter how false, unless it’s threatened with a lawsuit or if it can make the faulty article disappear quietly.

    http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/blog/

  2. avatar
    Majority Will January 28, 2011 at 4:57 pm #

    Birther: “He wanted to expose the truth and they got to him.

  3. avatar
    Sean January 28, 2011 at 5:14 pm #

    I picture Palafox being tied up and told the Dixie cup story from Mississippi Burning.

    “They took a razor blade…..like this one. And a Dixie cup, like this one…….”

  4. avatar
    Majority Will January 28, 2011 at 5:40 pm #

    Sean: I picture Palafox being tied up and told the Dixie cup story from Mississippi Burning.“They took a razor blade…..like this one. And a Dixie cup, like this one…….”

    Or questioned by the sadistic dentist in Marathon Man. “Is it safe?”

  5. avatar
    E. Glenn harcsar January 28, 2011 at 7:43 pm #

    Good joke, dear dr. C, but I fear it s all coming apart quickly. Are you yet returned to our frigid clime?

  6. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 28, 2011 at 8:07 pm #

    E. Glenn harcsar: Are you yet returned to our frigid clime?

    Yes, I returned to the good ole USA yesterday.

    When I was in Costa Rica, we visited an elementary school and the children sang their national anthem for us. Then they asked us to sing our national anthem for us and I am proud to say that we did a very fine job of it.

    Then one spunky kid asked us to name the 7 provinces of Costa Rica, which as a group we were able to do; then we asked them to name the 50 states of the United States 👿

  7. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 28, 2011 at 8:08 pm #

    E. Glenn harcsar: I fear it s all coming apart quickly

    I do not share your fears.

  8. avatar
    E. Glenn harcsar January 28, 2011 at 10:00 pm #

    Okay then….slowly. welcome back.

  9. avatar
    Mike January 29, 2011 at 11:52 am #

    Birthers will say that this is proof that there is something wrong about Obama’s birth certificate.

    The morons already are…

    Welcome back, Doc.

  10. avatar
    nc1 January 29, 2011 at 9:33 pm #

    “Gov. Neil Abercrombie’s office said he asked Dr. Neal Palafox to withdraw his nomination to lead the state Department of Health, contradicting his administration’s previous claim that Palafox withdrew himself.

    Abercrombie spokeswoman Donalyn Dela Cruz confirmed it was the governor and not Palafox who asked for the withdrawal….”

    http://www.mauinews.com/page/content.detail/id/545587/Abercrombie-asked-nominee-to-withdraw.html?nav=5031

  11. avatar
    US Citizen January 29, 2011 at 10:32 pm #

    Welcome back. 🙂

    Nothing’s really changed and “he’ll be out any day now” remains the basic chant.

  12. avatar
    Lupin January 30, 2011 at 3:30 am #

    The NY TIMES has an interesting story about this guy who believes the Jews had it coming with the Holocaust:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/nyregion/26email.html?_r=1&ref=technology

    What I found interesting was that the guy in question wrote this as part of his half-hearted, half-assed explanation:

    “There’s no reason if you question aspects of what may or may not happen or what murder weapon was used during the Holocaust that you should be called an anti-Semite.”

    No kidding.

    Well, nc1 and the other birthers play the same instrument. Let me make it clear: if you persist in denying the legitimacy of President Obama despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you are indeed a racist.

    I don’t care what you say; you actions speak for themselves.

  13. avatar
    nc1 January 30, 2011 at 3:02 pm #

    Lupin: The NY TIMES has an interesting story about this guy who believes the Jews had it coming with the Holocaust:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/nyregion/26email.html?_r=1&ref=technologyWhat I found interesting was that the guy in question wrote this as part of his half-hearted, half-assed explanation: “There’s no reason if you question aspects of what may or may not happen or what murder weapon was used during the Holocaust that you should be called an anti-Semite.”No kidding.Well, nc1 and the other birthers play the same instrument. Let me make it clear: if you persist in denying the legitimacy of President Obama despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you are indeed a racist.I don’t care what you say; you actions speak for themselves.

    How difficult is it for a person born in USA to show the original birth certificate?

    If it turned out that Obama was not eligible for the office – wouldn’t it make you a modern day Quilsling?

  14. avatar
    richCares January 30, 2011 at 3:14 pm #

    “If it turned out that Obama was not eligible for the office”
    that issue ended when Obama was sworn in, give up your foolishness as it will go nowhere. Go and live a real life!

  15. avatar
    G January 30, 2011 at 3:28 pm #

    nc1: How difficult is it for a person born in USA to show the original birth certificate?

    Sorry, but if the OFFICIAL birth certificate document released by the state of HI, the COLB, which clearly answers the ONLY relevant questions of where & when he was born (hint: Honolulu, HI) won’t satisy you, then I highly doubt that anything really will.

    Your protestations for more info ring hollow. They are nothing but a sham excuse that you are fronting to cover for your personal dislike and unhappiness that Obama got elected, because you can’t accept the world we live in today.

    nc1: If it turned out that Obama was not eligible for the office

    Yeah…and if it turned out that unicorns farted rainbows…

    Same level of unrealistic fictional nonsense scenarios. Nobody should take kooks like you that spout such implausible nonsense seriously. The only legitimate concern when hearing someone rant like you do is to wonder why we let such blatent mental illness go untreated.

  16. avatar
    Jules January 30, 2011 at 3:32 pm #

    nc1:
    How difficult is it for a person born in USA to show the original birth certificate?If it turned out that Obama was not eligible for the office – wouldn’t it make you a modern day Quilsling?

    Actually, showing the original itself would be quite difficult for anybody. Original birth certificates are kept in the archives of the relevant vital statistics office. Thus, accessing the original document would require getting a job in the vital statistics office that provides access to archived documents.

    Of course, states’ laws provide that people can request some sort of certified copy of the documents that registrars hold on their births. Hawaii law states that a certified copy can take the form of a computer printout of the information on file. This is what is now standard in Hawaii. This is what Obama obtained in 2007. He has proceeded to scan this for the Internet to see and allowed Factcheck to take photos and confirm that they had indeed seen the document.

    Of course, some jurisdictions do issue, as standard or on request, certified copies in the form of a photocopy of the original document on file. If it is possible for a person to obtain such a document from Hawaii today, then please cite evidence of this.

  17. avatar
    Scientist January 30, 2011 at 4:14 pm #

    nc1: If it turned out that Obama was not eligible for the office – wouldn’t it make you a modern day Quilsling?

    The comparison is ludicrous. Let’s look at a few points in logical order:

    1. Your scenario of a home birth is simply a home birth. Perfectly legal and has ZERO impact on eligibility.
    2. You can twist and turn and cry that that indicates fraud. It does not. Many people are born at home (I know one myself). From there to PROVING fraud is a long way and you have no way to get there 50 years after the fact.
    3. Even if you could prove there was a fraud, then you’d have to prove the President knew about it as opposed to being the innocent victim. In the event parents/grandparents committed fraud, there is a strong likelihood they would keep that secret from the child.
    4. Now, Suppose you could establish that he was born to a US citizen outside the US. Would he be ineligible? I don’t know and neither do you, since there are arguments eiither way. It would have to go to the Supreme Court, which might rule him eligible or decline to rule.
    5. Suppose the court ruled there was a technical ineligibility. How exactly would that be a terrible crisis? Several members of Congress served while below the minimum age, including the great Henry Clay. It’s a simple fact that every single one of us violates mulltiple laws every day. http://www.wcl.american.edu/journal/lawrev/54/luna.pdf?rd=1 and that includes all modern Presidents.

    So, even if you went all the way and proved that Obama was born outside the US and got a definitive ruling that that made him technically ineligible, it would not be the end of the world. Because no one has been able to show me how a President born outside the US and brought here a week or 2 later would make decisions any differently than if he had been born here. So you have wasted 2 years of your life on otaku-something as meaningless as train schedules or who said what in an old “Star Trek”.

  18. avatar
    Greg January 30, 2011 at 4:20 pm #

    If it turned out that Obama was not eligible for the office – wouldn’t it make you a modern day Quilsling?

    If Obama had led military coup, his presidency would be void. If he attained the Presidency under disability, when discovered he would have to be impeached. Prior to discovery, his Presidency is valid.

    That’s the way the law works and the way the law has to work. Do you really think a Democrat should be able to come onto the scene in 2007 and prove that Bush wasn’t born in Connecticut, like previously believed, but in Montreal and by that simple act, invalidate 7 years of Republican rule?

  19. avatar
    Scientist January 30, 2011 at 4:32 pm #

    Greg: Do you really think a Democrat should be able to come onto the scene in 2007 and prove that Bush wasn’t born in Connecticut, like previously believed, but in Montreal and by that simple act, invalidate 7 years of Republican rule?

    The birthers always ignore the fact that the Constitution requires that you win the most electoral votes in addition to being 35 and a natural born citizen (in fact, that is discussed first and at much greater length in Article II). Did Bush do that in 2007? I think a fair-minded person would have to say that is uncertain. Yet very few people and certainly no elected Democrats that i am aware of, even at the state level, maintained that he was not the legiitimate President (however much they disagreed with his policies). Yet there are Republican state reps who are open birthers today.

    Now, nc1, would you say that taking office without having won the election is somehow OK? Would you care to go to Cairo and say that?

  20. avatar
    nc1 January 30, 2011 at 4:46 pm #

    Scientist: The birthers always ignore the fact that the Constitution requires that you win the most electoral votes in addition to being 35 and a natural born citizen (in fact, that is discussed first and at much greater length in Article II). Did Bush do that in 2007? I think a fair-minded person would have to say that is uncertain. Yet very few people and certainly no elected Democrats that i am aware of, even at the state level, maintained that he was not the legiitimate President (however much they disagreed with his policies). Yet there are Republican state reps who are open birthers today.Now, nc1, would you say that taking office without having won the election is somehow OK? Would you care to go to Cairo and say that?

    Obama’s eligibility was questioned long before the elections. Even a lawsuit was filed three months prior to elections.

    Winning elections does not trump the Constitution.

    Had Bush lied about his eligibility and covered it for 7 years as in your hypothetical scenario – he should have been prosecuted and thrown to jail. The same is true with his enablers.

    The only hope for Obama is making sure that there is sufficient number of enablers who will fight for him and prevent the discovery of actual facts.

  21. avatar
    Rickey January 30, 2011 at 4:50 pm #

    nc1:
    How difficult is it for a person born in USA to show the original birth certificate?

    I was born in New York State in 1948. I have never seen my “original” birth certificate. I have, however, over the course of my lifetime had several occasions to order my birth certificate from New York State. Each version they sent me (including the one given to my parents a week after I was born) contains LESS information than Obama’s COLB. Nevertheless, with the birth certificates New York sent me I have been able to:

    1, Get a driver’s license
    2. Get a Social Security number
    3. Enlist in the U.S. Navy, where I was given a Top Secret security clearance
    4. Register to vote
    5. Obtain a U.S. passport

    I don’t know the name of the doctor who delivered me. I know the name of the hospital, but only because my parents told me – it doesn’t appear on any of the birth certificates I have received.

    And if I ran for President, you would never question my natural-born citizen status because I am white.

  22. avatar
    nc1 January 30, 2011 at 5:10 pm #

    Scientist: The comparison is ludicrous. Let’s look at a few points in logical order….

    ————————————————————————————————————-

    1,2. Home birth would not be an obstacle of course. It would however indicate that lies have been told to us and it would warrant a confirmation thet home birth registration was based on fact and not based on fraud. It would be an easy confirmation -check the passport records.

    3. If it turned out that Obama was born abroad a follow up investigation would determne whether he was an innocent victim or a willing participant. For example if he travelled to Pakistan with a foreign passport, or applied to school claiming to be a foreign student it would be difficult to claim he did not know he was not eligible for office.

    4. If he was born abroad he is not a natural born citizen – period.
    In addition, he would not be even citizen at birth. According to the US Immigration law (from 1952), which was in effect in 1961, a child born abroad of a foreign citizen parent and US citizen parent would get US citizenship only in case when the US parent lived in the US at least 5 years after the age of 14.
    Obama’s mother was several months younger than 19 when he was born.

    Therefore, if born abroad, Obama was not even US citizen at birth – he would have had to go through the naturalization process to become a US citizen.

    5. Having an ineligible person as POTUS is a terible idea. National security is compromised by having a person with dual loyalties exposed to national secrets. Conducting war, establishing rules of engagement that make soldiers more vulnerable than necessary, signing treaties with Russia that may not be in US national interest, planting seeds of doubts in the military about legitimacy of their command chain,…

    I could go on with problems created by having an usurper in the office.

  23. avatar
    G January 30, 2011 at 5:14 pm #

    nc1: Winning elections does not trump the Constitution.

    Yeah, but here’s the problem with your fallacy.

    There is no real evidence whatsoever at all to indicate that Obama is anything other than a qualified NBC and candidate for POTUS under our Constitution.

    Pure bitter speculation by people who don’t like him don’t count.

    The entire election process followed, which led to his election and his conformation WAS fully in accordance to our laws AND our Constitution.

    That is what you fools fail to grasp. There is no evidence of fraud. Everything took place in accordance with our laws.

    Your right to irrationally hate people or be tiresomely paranoid doesn’t give you priviledges above our Constitution.

    Suspicion doesn’t cut it. Our entire system of laws – founded in our Constituion is based in the premise of innocent UNTIL proven guilty. The burden of proof is always on the accuser – which is YOU. And you’ve got NOTHING.

  24. avatar
    nc1 January 30, 2011 at 5:21 pm #

    Rickey: I was born in New York State in 1948. I have never seen my “original” birth certificate. I have, however, over the course of my lifetime had several occasions to order my birth certificate from New York State. Each version they sent me (including the one given to my parents a week after I was born) contains LESS information than Obama’s COLB. Nevertheless, with the birth certificates New York sent me I have been able to:1, Get a driver’s license2. Get a Social Security number3. Enlist in the U.S. Navy, where I was given a Top Secret security clearance4. Register to vote5. Obtain a U.S. passportI don’t know the name of the doctor who delivered me. I know the name of the hospital, but only because my parents told me – it doesn’t appear on any of the birth certificates I have received. And if I ran for President, you would never question my natural-born citizen status because I am white.

    Do you think for a second that a US Senator running for presidency cannot obtain a copy of the original birth certificate?

    A person born in the USA with no reason to hide the birthplace would not behave like Obama did. He did not even authorize the DoH to release an uncertified copy of his COLB. It also does not make sense that DoH refuses to confirm the birth registration number shown on Obama’s document (the FactCheck image).

    You assumed that Hawaii DoH issued COLB – yet they refuse to answer a direct question about issuing it to Obama on June 6, 2007.

    Nobody is asking for his private medical records, just simple facts confirming the birthplace.

  25. avatar
    G January 30, 2011 at 5:22 pm #

    nc1: 1,2. Home birth would not be an obstacle of course. It would however indicate that lies have been told to us and it would warrant a confirmation thet home birth registration was based on fact and not based on fraud. It would be an easy confirmation -check the passport records.

    Nope. What you continue to FAIL to understand, is that even under such an unlikely scenario where evidence turned up that he was born in some other hospital or at a house or on the side of the road, etc – it would be completely IRRELEVANT.

    Furthermore, it in no way would indicate that Obama lied. If he’s been going through his whole life thinking his birth happened one way and the records showed that it took place at a different location – HE IS NOT AT FAULT for this. A baby has no awareness of their birth and can only go off of what they’ve been told.

    Again, the entire BURDEN of PROOF would be on YOU and your ilk to PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that he personally and knowingly lied as opposed to being merely mistaken and going off of what he thought was true.

    Furthermore, in this completely implausible scenario and the even more implausible fantasy that you somehow found evidence to prove that he lied – the next hurdle would hit you smack in the face – to prove that it was in any way relevant.

    And you’d be right back to failure again, as there is NO legal requirement to be born in a specific hospital vs. a home or whatever and so it would be completely irrelevant and not in any way against any of our laws and a good chuck of America wouln’t care at all.

  26. avatar
    Scientist January 30, 2011 at 5:25 pm #

    nc1: Therefore, if born abroad, Obama was not even US citizen at birth – he would have had to go through the naturalization process to become a US citizen

    With all due respect, you are neither a lawyer nor a judge. Simply reading a statute is not sufficient; you have to look at case law and how the statute would be applied. Thanks for your OPINION, but in the evnet i would wait gto hear what real judges said,

    nc1: Having an ineligible person as POTUS is a terible idea. National security is compromised by having a person with dual loyalties exposed to national secrets.

    A person who came here as a 1 week old baby and grew up here would have no different loyalities than someone who was born here.

    nc1: signing treaties with Russia that may not be in US national interest

    The Seante approves all treaties by a 2/3 majority.

    nc1: planting seeds of doubts in the military about legitimacy of their command chain,…

    Now you make me laugh. It’s the birthers who do that. I am now thinking that you don’t believe the b/s/ you say at all, but are just pulling our legs…

  27. avatar
    G January 30, 2011 at 5:26 pm #

    nc1: I could go on with problems created by having an usurper in the office.

    Yes, you go on and on and on.

    However, nothing changes that all your scenarios are merely useless paranoid speculative fiction existing within your own head and have no evidence to back them up.

    Innocent until proven guilty. Your fevered mind can’t just apply what-if scenarios and make them real.

    And that is why you will remain just an irrelevant and foolish blowhard with no credibility and even less ability to impact the POTUS or this country.

  28. avatar
    Scientist January 30, 2011 at 5:29 pm #

    nc1: Winning elections does not trump the Constitution

    Nor does not winning them. You seem to think being eligible is more important than winning.. In that case there are at least 100 million Presidents, including many on this board.

  29. avatar
    G January 30, 2011 at 5:39 pm #

    nc1: A person born in the USA with no reason to hide the birthplace would not behave like Obama did. He did not even authorize the DoH to release an uncertified copy of his COLB. It also does not make sense that DoH refuses to confirm the birth registration number shown on Obama’s document (the FactCheck image).
    You assumed that Hawaii DoH issued COLB – yet they refuse to answer a direct question about issuing it to Obama on June 6, 2007.
    Nobody is asking for his private medical records, just simple facts confirming the birthplace.

    Well, the problem there is that is just your meaningless OPINION of how a person should or shoudn’t behave.

    For one thing, a person in his position never had to provide the PUBLIC with ANY proof in the first place. The public has NO Constitutional right to that…. Sorry, but that is just a fact.

    Furthermore, he’s the ONLY candidate for POTUS to EVER do so – which his campaign did as a CHOICE in 2008, by scanning his COLB so that it could be viewed by everyone who wanted to see it on the Internet.

    That you’ve never questioned or needed to see ANY other prior President’s (or candidate’s) BC, speaks volumes.

    It sounds like you want to apply different rules to Obama….for some irrational reason…that you never cared about with any other candidate before.

    And unlike your opinion, many of us, if we were in the same position and went out of our way to offer, by choice, the COLB to the public and then had crazy folks like you scream that it was not enough, we’d take your attitude as an irrational insult and not pay any more attention to you whiny ingrates and losers too.

    Heck, I’d be a lot ruder myself if I was put in such a position & tell the haters to go pound salt…but then that’s not a very presidential way to talk, is it? Regardless, he could give you all the finger if he chose to do so and he would be well in his rights to do so.

    If I was in his position – on principal of the insult alone, I would refuse to acknowledge or listen to you nuts and would go way beyond his mere ignoring you folks and actively block your every demand.

    So, that’s MY opinion…which is a view that many others also share. You mere opinion doesn’t trump ours. Nor do either of our opinions have any relevance to the rules of law in place here. Nor do any of them in any way impose or constrain how Obama choses to react or not react to you whiny folks. Nor does it in any way impact his ability to do carry out his job as POTUS.

    And that is reality. Sucks to be you.

  30. avatar
    G January 30, 2011 at 5:43 pm #

    nc1: You assumed that Hawaii DoH issued COLB – yet they refuse to answer a direct question about issuing it to Obama on June 6, 2007.

    I fail to see where you’ve asked any question in regards to June 6, 2007.

    If you are too dumb to realize that his campaign got started in 2007 and then requested a copy (or copies) of his BC to have on file in case they needed it during the filing and registration process to get on the ballots…then you are just too obtuse and paranoid to see the obvious.

    Any competent campaign would take steps to request any potential relevant records they felt they might need to quickly and smoothly obtain ballot access.

  31. avatar
    nc1 January 30, 2011 at 6:12 pm #

    G: I fail to see where you’ve asked any question in regards to June 6, 2007.If you are too dumb to realize that his campaign got started in 2007 and then requested a copy (or copies) of his BC to have on file in case they needed it during the filing and registration process to get on the ballots…then you are just too obtuse and paranoid to see the obvious.Any competent campaign would take steps to request any potential relevant records they felt they might need to quickly and smoothly obtain ballot access.

    If they obtained a legitimate copy from DoH they would not have released the first image to Daily Kos, an obscure left wing site. They would have posted it on the campaign web site first.

    When people challenged its authenticity pointing out to several obvious flaws in that image, it took Obama campaign TWO months to come up with better version, which was offered only to FactCheck. This image is not an image of an official document – it is a forgery. The incompatibility of Date Filed and the registration number 10641 is the key error made by forgers.

    That is the reason why Abercrombie could not confirm it evern though his proclaimed goal was releasing information that would confirm official birthplace.

  32. avatar
    G January 30, 2011 at 6:43 pm #

    nc1: If they obtained a legitimate copy from DoH they would not have released the first image to Daily Kos, an obscure left wing site. They would have posted it on the campaign web site first.
    When people challenged its authenticity pointing out to several obvious flaws in that image, it took Obama campaign TWO months to come up with better version, which was offered only to FactCheck. This image is not an image of an official document – it is a forgery. The incompatibility of Date Filed and the registration number 10641 is the key error made by forgers.
    That is the reason why Abercrombie could not confirm it evern though his proclaimed goal was releasing information that would confirm official birthplace.

    Wow. That is one of the dumbest arguments you’ve made so far. You need to stop getting all your source fiction from your bunk birther sites.

    There are no multiple different documents released.

    That is a fiction of your own imagination and your gullibility into buying into nonsense you read from biased tabloid websites that lack credibility.

  33. avatar
    Greg January 30, 2011 at 6:44 pm #

    Daily Kos is obscure like Free Republic is obscure.

    As for my earlier example, putting Bush in jail is different than declaring everything he did void. Bush was president, by the proper method, and so, nothing he did can be impeached by a later discovered ineligibility!

    And, let me get this straight, you’ve got candidate A, who was born here to two US Citizens and the day after his birth, he moves to North Korea. He lives there for 21 years, going to school there but never loses his US citizenship. After 14 years living here, he runs for President. He’s running against Obama who thinks he wad born in Hawaii. He lives abroad for a few years before moving back here and runs for State office, then Senate, then the Presidency. And you think it is A) a national security issue if we learn that, contrary to what Obama believed, he was born abroad AND B) there is ZERO national security issue for candidate A!

  34. avatar
    dunstvangeet January 30, 2011 at 6:53 pm #

    nc1:
    Do you think for a second that a US Senator running for presidency cannot obtain a copy of the original birth certificate?

    So, you believe that governmental officials who are running for President should be able to get documents that the normal American who has to prove the same thing cannot get?

    A person born in the USA with no reason to hide the birthplace would not behave like Obama did.

    Actually, I would behave in exactly the same way that Obama has. I would have presented my official State Birth Certificate to the voters, the one I used to get a passport, the one I used to get a drivers license, then I would present no other documentation. I have proven my citizenship, and the fact that a bunch of people who continually suggest that I would kill my own grandmother claiming that I have not is of no consequence. I would not give the birthers one more document. In fact, if one of these lawsuits ever did get past standing, I would present the judge with the same exact birth certificate that I got from the State to that judge, and watch the birthers faces while the judge rules that I was born in the United States, based upon nothing more than the birth certificate that I had shown 3 years ago. Why should I present any sort of evidence to a bunch of people who continually say that I murdered my own grandmother, and that my mother and grandmother are a bunch of liars?

  35. avatar
    Keith January 30, 2011 at 7:28 pm #

    Scientist: Now you make me laugh. It’s the birthers who do that. I am now thinking that you don’t believe the b/s/ you say at all, but are just pulling our legs…

    I suggest he/she is pulling something alright, but its isn’t a leg, and it isn’t ours.

  36. avatar
    Black Lion January 30, 2011 at 7:47 pm #

    More fearmongering by the right and the birthers regarding the President…

    The U.S. State Department is moving to create a continental border around the United States, erasing the borders between the U.S. and Canada and Mexico.

    Now we’re all going to be one big, happy, North American continent—and it wouldn’t surprise me if the Open Borders crowd will nominate Obama to be our leader.

    “Global Entry” is a U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) program that has implemented a new Trusted Traveler Program (TTP). These travelers will be issued cards with a logo depicting North America as a continent, without borders to identify the United States.

    The Words “global entry” and “protection” don’t belong in the same sentence. Apparently this doesn’t strike anyone in the Obama administration as a problem.

    The Global Entry website states, “Though intended for frequent international travelers, there is no minimum number of trips necessary to qualify for the program. Participants may enter the United States by using automated kiosks located at select airports.”

    Americans deserve to know the truth about how Obama is ERASING our borders. STANDPAC is going to flood the media with information about the “Trusted Traveler” program, because the mainstream media won’t. Will you send a donation to STANDPAC and help us with our communication efforts?

    When you and I want to fly back and forth within the United States, we are subjected to a humiliating and time-consuming analysis by government employees. Our IDs are scrutinized, our kids are carefully looked over, and we have a choice of posing for a nude scan or having a stranger in a blue uniform put their hands on our private parts. I don’t want a stranger at an airport intimidating and subjecting my mother to invasive and embarrassing procedures while at the same time we propose to let criminals and terrorists infiltrate our borders.

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  37. avatar
    obsolete January 30, 2011 at 8:06 pm #

    nc1: If they obtained a legitimate copy from DoH they would not have released the first image to Daily Kos, an obscure left wing site. They would have posted it on the campaign web site first.

    They give the COLB to Daily Kos because they ACTUALLY ASKED him for it. Others have gotten info from Hawaii because they ACTUALLY ASKED for it. Some people never ask but just keep repeating claims that Obama or Hawaii refuse to confirm this or that.

    BTW, Daily Kos is not an obscure site- It counts amongst its member US Senators, Congressmen, and media figures like Keith Olberman.

    And, for the umpteenth time- what EVIDENCE do you have that Obama’s COLB is a forgery? The two “experts” who first claimed it was a fake have been roundly discredited. You look really bad when you repeat what you know to be lies.

  38. avatar
    Scientist January 30, 2011 at 8:24 pm #

    Black Lion: “Global Entry” is a U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) program that has implemented a new Trusted Traveler Program (TTP).

    This program has been in operation for many years It’s called NEXUS on the US-Canada border and you can apply and be screened by the FBI and the Mounties so you can go back amd forth without waiting in lines. It started under Bush (there was an earlier version in the 1990s). There are people who live on one side of the border and work on the other and literally go back and forth every day. For them these cards are major time savers. Not to mention all the trucks that cross in both direction carrying critical materials for industry on both sides. I thought the right-wingers were supposed to be pro-business.

  39. avatar
    BatGuano January 30, 2011 at 8:43 pm #

    nc1: …it took Obama campaign TWO months to come up with better version,….

    …..and the corresponding newspaper announcements from 1961?

  40. avatar
    G January 30, 2011 at 8:48 pm #

    Black Lion: Now we’re all going to be one big, happy, North American continent—and it wouldn’t surprise me if the Open Borders crowd will nominate Obama to be our leader.

    This is the same bogeyman nonsense that these kooks were claiming on Lou Dobbs back during the Bush years about some nutty conspiracy of a North American Highway.

    These folks are complete nutters and they keep coming up with new versions of trying to invent some sort of NWO global conspiracy or North American Union conspiracy crap.

    Noone is endangering the sovereignity of the USA.

  41. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 30, 2011 at 9:24 pm #

    nc1: When people challenged its authenticity pointing out to several obvious flaws in that image, it took Obama campaign TWO months to come up with better version, which was offered only to FactCheck

    I’m sorry, what flaws? I’ve never seen a demonstration of flaws in the originally released images, nor have I seen any evidence that the original images are of a different certificate than the FactCheck images. I have seen evidence that persons claiming such differences lied.

  42. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 30, 2011 at 9:37 pm #

    nc1: Do you think for a second that a US Senator running for presidency cannot obtain a copy of the original birth certificate?

    I am fairly confident that the reason that we have not seen a certified photocopy of Obama’s original birth certificate is purely political.

    You have to remember that when the COLB was released, birthers were just asking for a birth certificate, and Obama released the standard Hawaiian birth certificate. It was only later that birthers decided that they had to have a long form. Reasonable people were convinced by the COLB, and what value is there in trying to persuade partisan cranks and conspiracy theorists?

  43. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 30, 2011 at 9:42 pm #

    nc1: 4. If he was born abroad he is not a natural born citizen – period.

    That is a question which is not clearly decided. Since Obama’s father was a bigamist, the Obama marriage might not have been valid, in which case Obama would have been born a US citizen by virtue of his mother’s citizenship. Whether US Presidents must be born in the US, or only born citizens is a matter of scholarly debate.

    A credible argument can be made that Barack Obama is eligible to be president no matter where he was born.

  44. avatar
    Joey January 30, 2011 at 9:53 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I am fairly confident that the reason that we have not seen a certified photocopy of Obama’s original birth certificate is purely political.You have to remember that when the COLB was released, birthers were just asking for a birth certificate, and Obama released the standard Hawaiian birth certificate. It was only later that birthers decided that they had to have a long form. Reasonable people were convinced by the COLB, and what value is there in trying to persuade partisan cranks and conspiracy theorists?

    By NOT producing a long form and ending the controversy, Obama forces Republicans to take a stand on the issue. By not producing a long form, he’s dividing Republican against more conservative Republican and getting even the new Speaker of the House and the new Majority Leader to declare him to be born in Hawaii. This infuriates the “birther” cohort.
    Obama knows that no one who would ever vote for him cares about the birther issue.
    As Karl Rove said in a Wall Street Journal editorial: “If Tea Party groups are to maximize their influence on policy, they must now begin the difficult task of disassociating themselves from cranks and conspiracy nuts. This includes 9/11 deniers, “birthers” who insist Barack Obama was not born in the United States and militia supporters espousing something vaguely close to armed rebellion.”–February 17, 2010

  45. avatar
    obsolete January 30, 2011 at 11:21 pm #

    Joey: As Karl Rove said in a Wall Street Journal editorial…

    Doncha know Karl Rove is in on it too?

    nc1: 4. If he was born abroad he is not a natural born citizen – period.

    If it did make its way up to the Supreme Court on this particular issue, I don’t think the Supremes would rule against Obama and be seen as nullifying a Presidential election and the votes of 69 million Americans on what could be described as a technicality. To do so would require extraordinary evidence that the law has always excluded NBC from citizens born abroad to one American parent. Maybe/iffy wouldn’t cut it.
    But, of course Obama was born in Kapiolani in Hawaii so it is all just academic.

  46. avatar
    nc1 January 31, 2011 at 1:39 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: That is a question which is not clearly decided. Since Obama’s father was a bigamist, the Obama marriage might not have been valid, in which case Obama would have been born a US citizen by virtue of his mother’s citizenship. Whether US Presidents must be born in the US, or only born citizens is a matter of scholarly debate.A credible argument can be made that Barack Obama is eligible to be president no matter where he was born.

    If he was born abroad, he is not a natural born citizen regardless of the marital situation of his parents. His father was a foreigner.

    It is a murky situation when it comes to citizenship. Marital situation of his parents would play a role. If they were not legally married (how would you prove it?) Obama would have received US citizenship through his mother.

    Scholarly debate would be needed only in case of a child born abroad to two US citizen parents.

  47. avatar
    nc1 January 31, 2011 at 2:10 am #

    obsolete: They give the COLB to Daily Kos because they ACTUALLY ASKED him for it. Others have gotten info from Hawaii because they ACTUALLY ASKED for it. Some people never ask but just keep repeating claims that Obama or Hawaii refuse to confirm this or that.BTW, Daily Kos is not an obscure site- It counts amongst its member US Senators, Congressmen, and media figures like Keith Olberman. And, for the umpteenth time- what EVIDENCE do you have that Obama’s COLB is a forgery? The two “experts” who first claimed it was a fake have been roundly discredited. You look really bad when you repeat what you know to be lies.

    1. Why didn’t they post it on the official campaign web site first – it does not make sense to post it anywhere else first.

    2. Evidence that COLB is a forgery is simple – compare the image on Factcheck with Nordyke certificates. The registration number on COLB does not fit the Date Filed field – that is as simple as I can explain it for you.

    Obama’s birth registration could not have originated at Kapiolani – his Date Filed should have been August 11, 1961, to be consistent with the number 10641. Okubo said that local registrars were sending registrations on weekly basis to central office in Honolulu. If that was the case Obama’s document should have been sent together with Nordykes’ documents (on August 11).

    An unattended birth registered on August 8, 1961 would have received lower registration number than Nordyke certificates.

    Therefore even in this scenario the registration number does not fit.

    It is easy to see why Abercrombie and his predecesors do not want to confirm that this number is part of Obama’s registration index – they cannot do it because it is not true. There is no law that prevents them from releasing this information if it was true.

  48. avatar
    Joey January 31, 2011 at 2:20 am #

    nc1: If he was born abroad, he is not a natural born citizen regardless of the marital situation of his parents. His father was a foreigner. It is a murky situation when it comes to citizenship. Marital situation of his parents would play a role. If they were not legally married (how would you prove it?) Obama would have received US citizenship through his mother.Scholarly debate would be needed only in case of a child born abroad to two US citizen parents.

    The operative word in NC1’s post is “if.” There is no proof that Barack Obama was born abroad. There is rumor and forged and discredited Kenyan birth certificates.
    However the former Republican Governor of Hawaii, Linda Lingle says: “It’s been established. He was born here.”
    The new Speaker of the House says: “The state of Hawaii has said that the President was born there. That’s good enough for me.”
    The Chief Judge of the US District Court for the District of Columbia (Judge Royce C. Lamberth) says: “This is one of several suits filed by Ms. Taitz in her quixotic attempt to prove that the president is not a natural born citizen as is required by the Constitution. This Court is not willing to go tilting at windmills with her.”

  49. avatar
    nc1 January 31, 2011 at 2:41 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I’m sorry, what flaws? I’ve never seen a demonstration of flaws in the originally released images, nor have I seen any evidence that the original images are of a different certificate than the FactCheck images. I have seen evidence that persons claiming such differences lied.

    You know very well that the first COLB image (the Daily Kos version) does not show the seal, bottom fold crease and the registration number is blacked out.

    The same day it was posted there were numerous comments pointing out at deficiencies. Obama campaign was aware that the image was problematic.

    If they really had an official certificate in their possession, it would have been easy to post a good scan or to invite interested media to see the document. They waited two months to come up with the FactCheck version. Only two people from Factcheck could see that document. I have asked FactCheck to publish what methods of verification they used: bsaically the same two questions I asked on this blog. They never replied to my emails and did not publish answers to those two questions on their web site.

    They are partisan hacks not interested in truth but providing cover for Obama.

    The easiest confirmation that one could think of – a simple Yes/No from DoH whether they issued a COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007 cannot be obtained.

  50. avatar
    nc1 January 31, 2011 at 3:06 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I am fairly confident that the reason that we have not seen a certified photocopy of Obama’s original birth certificate is purely political.You have to remember that when the COLB was released, birthers were just asking for a birth certificate, and Obama released the standard Hawaiian birth certificate. It was only later that birthers decided that they had to have a long form. Reasonable people were convinced by the COLB, and what value is there in trying to persuade partisan cranks and conspiracy theorists?

    When you release an image that contains obvious flaws people will ask for verification that this is an official document.

    If the reason for hiding a certified photocopy of original was purely political, it would have been bad politics. At minimum it is a distraction – it does not do any good to Obama or Democrats to see polls showing more than 43% of people not sure that Obama was born in the USA.

    A true leader and CiC would have never allowed the situation where high ranking offciers doubt his eligibility. Ordering people to go to war and risk their lives while doubting your eligibility for office is wrong.

    If he was simply playing politics – this would paint a picture of a mean politician who simply lied to the nation when he promised the change of business as usual in Washington DC.

    I doubt that an intelligent person would engage in that kind of behavior without a deeper reason.

  51. avatar
    Hawaiiborn January 31, 2011 at 3:22 am #

    nc1:
    If he was born abroad, he is not a natural born citizen regardless of the marital situation of his parents. His father was a foreigner.

    That’s your opinion. Merits on citizenship rests on the Courts to decide and even his father was a foreigner, his mother was an American. The courts, IMO, would look favorably on Stanley Ann Dunham with the law in place, Obama could be confirmed as Natural born (IF he was born outside of the US)

    All of that is moot, since he was born in Hawaii and the citizenship status of his parents have NO bearing on his citizenship.

    Case closed.

  52. avatar
    Hawaiiborn January 31, 2011 at 3:25 am #

    nc1:
    When you release an image that contains obvious flaws people will ask for verification that this is an official document.

    address two posts in one:

    the one on Obama’s campaign site has the SEAL and the date, you can see it if you up the contrast/brightness on the image in any photo editing software, or play with the levels

    and to your question above, that is what FACTHCECK did, they went to Obama’s campaign office to see the COLB in person

    Can you tell me what birther did this prior to November 2008? Oh wait. NONE of them.

    Phil Berg, who filed one of the first lawsuits against Obama had all the time in the world to go and see his COLB. He didn’t.

    Tells us the true motives of birthers.

  53. avatar
    obsolete January 31, 2011 at 3:43 am #

    nc1: 1. Why didn’t they post it on the official campaign web site first – it does not make sense to post it anywhere else first.

    They gave it to Kos, who posted it as soon as they got it. Obama’s campaign posted it on fightthesmears.com shortly after Kos posted it. Again, when you are familiar with how things work in the real world, you can see that a blogger can act quicker than a campaign site with layers of bureaucracy. Nothing nefarious here.

    nc1: 2. Evidence that COLB is a forgery is simple – compare the image on Factcheck with Nordyke certificates. The registration number on COLB does not fit the Date Filed field – that is as simple as I can explain it for you.

    If that’s your main proof- you don’t have much. How do you know that the registration number on the COLB is the same one in the date filed field on a “long-form”? You are assuming too much. What is more likely- a simple explanation (registration number ≠Date Filed field) or the President of the United States forged a birth certificate, when Hawaiian officials confirm he was born there and they have the birth index data?)
    No wonder you don’t go to the FBI with your suspicions- you would be quickly added to their kook list (like the lady suing P-Diddy for causing 9/11)

    nc1: Obama’s birth registration could not have originated at Kapiolani –(YET ALL AVAILABLE EVIDENCE SAYS IT DID) his Date Filed should have been August 11, 1961, to be consistent with the number 10641. (SO YOU CLAIM. DID YOU WORK THERE?) Okubo said that local registrars were sending registrations on weekly basis to central office in Honolulu. If that was the case Obama’s document should have been sent together with Nordykes’ documents (on August 11).(HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY WEREN’T SENT TOGETHER? WHAT HAPPENED ONCE THE CENTRAL OFFICE RECEIVED THEM? IN WHAT ORDER WERE THEY PROCESSED? COULD TWO PEOPLE EACH GRAB HALF A STACK TO PROCESS THEM QUICKER, AND THAT IS WHY THE NUMBERS ARE CLOSE BUT NOT EXACTLY IN ORDER?

    An unattended birth registered on August 8, 1961 would have received lower registration number than Nordyke certificates. (SO YOU CLAIM. DID YOU WORK THERE? WHY IS THE NORDYKE”S NUMBER HIGHER THAN IT SHOULD BE?)

    (Sorry for the CAPS- Just trying to make my words stand out in the quotes.)
    The point you are missing is this- I can sit here and think of a hundred reasons why the certificates weren’t filed in the exact order you somehow know they should have been filed in, and each one is still more likely than your conclusion- A forged COLB by the President of the United States.

    You even have other half-baked theories about hacked databases (why forge a COLB then?)

    I’ll say it again clearly-

    There are hundreds of explanations more likely than forgery by a US President. Until you present some actual evidence, you have less than nothing.

  54. avatar
    Lupin January 31, 2011 at 3:52 am #

    The string of posts by nc1 above illustrates perfectly what I was saying, which was that the denial of the legitimacy of President Obama (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) reeks of racism — as in, “I’ll never accept a black man as president” — just as much as holocaust denial reeks of anti-semitism.

    I don’t care what nc1 says; the arguments are exactly the same: specious, meretricious, unfounded hypotheticals, willful ignorance of the facts.

  55. avatar
    obsolete January 31, 2011 at 3:53 am #

    nc1: They are partisan hacks not interested in truth but providing cover for Obama.

    Pure BS- Obvious evidence of your confirmation bias and conspiracy mindset.

    nc1: The easiest confirmation that one could think of – a simple Yes/No from DoH whether they issued a COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007 cannot be obtained.

    They have confirmed they issued him a COLB. To rational people, that would be enough.
    If they said yes, we issued him one on June 6, 2007, you would ask AM or PM and demand to see the receipt, and demand to see Obama’s receipt cause you think they won’t match, and ask what is Obama hiding? Why can’t he show me a three year-old receipt? Then you would muse about how Hawaii didn’t answer you while under oath, so they must be hiding something, etc. etc. etc. etc. on to infinity.

    And again, how do you know they won’t confirm? Have you asked them?

    I would love to see your letters to Factcheck- if they are anything like your questions here they must have added it to their kook file. Yours might even be good enough that they hung them on the wall for mocking.

  56. avatar
    nc1 January 31, 2011 at 5:54 am #

    obsolete: How do you know that the registration number on the COLB is the same one in the date filed field on a “long-form”? You are assuming too much. What is more likely- a simple explanation (registration number ≠Date Filed field) or the President of the United States forged a birth certificate, when Hawaiian officials confirm he was born there and they have the birth index dataYou even have other half-baked theories about hacked databases (why forge a COLB then?)I’ll say it again clearly-There are hundreds of explanations more likely than forgery by a US President. Until you present some actual evidence, you have less than nothing.

    1 The reason why I know that Obama’s certificate was not sent together withg Nordykes’ is simple. Check the dates when Nordyke documents were signed by the physician, local registrar and the registrar in the central office. All three dates are same August 11, 1961. If Obama’s document had a legitimate Date Filed as August 8, 1961 – this is the date when the file was processed by the central DoH office and registration number applied.

    We also know that Okubo said that documents were sent to the central office on weekly basis.

    It is impossible that Obama’s certificate originated at Kapiolani – it would either have been processed on August 11, 1961 or had a lower number than 10637.

    There is no reason for DoH to use two different numbers – one on the long form and something different on the COLB. The purpose of the registration number is to provide a unique identifier. You can use it to label the storage place. If you need to create a sorted list you can simply order index cards – no need to shuffle documents in the warehouse. In addition a sequential birth registration index controlled by the central office gives you immediate count how many births have been registered up to that point.

    My comment about hacked database was about passport records. We know that the database had been hacked into and Obama’s records were breached. What was changed is not known. The person in charge of investigation was named Vice-President. The person whose company was responsible for safe keeping of those records has been named as a security advisor.

    Why forge COLB in addition to hacked passport records – you have to take care of all problems pointing out that the official birthplace story is a ficticious one.

    I could give you the evidence if the governement officials followed the law and released the PUBLIC information.

  57. avatar
    ellid January 31, 2011 at 7:41 am #

    nc1:
    1 The reason why I know that Obama’s certificate was not sent together withg Nordykes’ is simple. Check the dates when Nordyke documents were signed by the physician, local registrar and the registrar in the central office. All three dates are same August 11, 1961.If Obama’s document had a legitimate Date Filed as August 8, 1961 – this is the date when the file was processed by the central DoH office and registration number applied.
    We also know that Okubo said that documents were sent to the central office on weekly basis.It is impossible that Obama’s certificate originated at Kapiolani – it would either have been processed on August 11, 1961 or had a lower number than 10637.There is no reason for DoH to use two different numbers – one on the long form and something different on the COLB.The purpose of the registration number is to provide a unique identifier.You can use it to label the storage place.If you need to create a sorted list you can simply order index cards – no need to shuffle documents in the warehouse. In addition a sequential birth registration index controlled by the central office gives you immediate count how many births have been registered up to that point.
    My comment about hacked database was about passport records. We know that the database had been hacked into and Obama’s records were breached.What was changed is not known. The person in charge of investigation was named Vice-President.The person whose company was responsible for safe keeping of those records has been named as a security advisor.Why forge COLB in addition to hacked passport records – you have to take care of all problems pointing out that the official birthplace story is a ficticious one.I could give you the evidence if the governement officials followed the law and released the PUBLIC information.

    You’re grasping at straws again, old sport. When are you going to give up? You’re no more right now than you were on the Independent two years ago.

  58. avatar
    Lupin January 31, 2011 at 8:00 am #

    nc1: 1 The reason why I know that Obama’s certificate was not sent… bla bla bla bla

    Just as I described: specious, meretricious, unfounded hypotheticals, willful ignorance of the facts.

    (And note the absence of an item 2 — the raving loon lost his thread.)

  59. avatar
    The Magic M January 31, 2011 at 8:51 am #

    > At minimum it is a distraction – it does not do any good to Obama or Democrats to see polls showing more than 43% of people not sure that Obama was born in the USA.

    I’m pretty sure the Obama team knows a lot more about market research than you do. Because it doesn’t mean squat if 100% of the people are “not sure” if Obama is a space lizard as long as only 0.01% of the people actually consider this important.

    > A true leader and CiC would have never allowed the situation where high ranking offciers doubt his eligibility.

    In a military of several million, half a dozen of “high ranking” officers and their opinion does not matter at all. Especially since the most high ranking active member was probably LTC Lakin.
    The opinion of retired military personnel is even less important to a President. Especially since here, as well, the numbers are a fringe minority compared to the total number of retired soldiers.

    As a leader, you learn that you don’t waste your resources on having 100% agree with you (in fact, in the military you don’t care if 100% disagree with you unless you think there’s mutiny afoot) or on having more than 50% agree with you 100%.
    And you don’t cater to opinions that are either a fringe minority or not really important to the people holding these opinions themselves.

    When our Vice Chancellor openly stated he was gay, he probably knew that a significant conservative minority would not approve (either of his sexual orientation itself or of the fact that he made it public), but he also knew this would not decisively affect his or his party’s chances for the next election (and it didn’t).
    In birthers’ opinion, he would have had to hide (and even deny) it because x% of the people do not approve.

    On the contrary, the numbers prove that the birthers’ issue is a non-issue to the general public. If 43% of the people think he may be foreign-born, why is birther support so small? Where are the 100+ million Americans demanding an answer? I can assure you, if 43% of the people believed he was Bin Laden’s half-brother or a space lizard, there would be tremendous public pressure. For the birther agenda, there simply is none.

    No matter how they try to explain that away with conspiracies – their own admission that 43% of the people “have doubts” refutes the argument of “the mass media are in on the conspiracy and suppress the issue”. If they really do, why are so many people “not sure”?

  60. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 31, 2011 at 10:09 am #

    nc1:
    We also know that Okubo said that documents were sent to the central office on weekly basis.

    And how do “we” know this?

  61. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 31, 2011 at 10:17 am #

    nc1: All three dates are same August 11, 1961. If Obama’s document had a legitimate Date Filed as August 8, 1961 – this is the date when the file was processed by the central DoH office and registration number applied.

    The number is applied at the end of the process. The question is why the Nordyke certificate was delayed so long, since the twins were born on the 3rd if memory serves me right. You have nothing to backup your assertion that the document should have been numbered on the same day that it was signed by the registrar.

    Further, you have yet to explain why, given that Obama has a Hawaiian birth certificate according to Hawaiian officials, why Obama would have an incorrect number on his COLB.

    If you are going to assert an alternate history for Obama’s birth, then you must put together a complete and consistent narrative of that history that fits the facts. No birther has ever put forth such a narrative; all they do is ask questions.

  62. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 31, 2011 at 10:30 am #

    nc1: There is no reason for DoH to use two different numbers – one on the long form and something different on the COLB. The purpose of the registration number is to provide a unique identifier. You can use it to label the storage place. If you need to create a sorted list you can simply order index cards – no need to shuffle documents in the warehouse. In addition a sequential birth registration index controlled by the central office gives you immediate count how many births have been registered up to that point.

    This perhaps the first reasonable thing you have said on this blog.

    However, when records are converted from a manual system to a computerized system, or from one computer system to another, they are SOMETIMES renumbered. I have personally converted state birth databases for 2 states where the state file number (which prints on the certificate) was reassigned in the new system. In one case the state wanted to change the structure of the number and in the other they had duplicate numbers in legacy data.

    I have no reason to think Hawaii renumbered their records when they went paperless and my gut tells me that they didn’t; however, it is a possibility. If the records had been renumbered in order of birth date, then Obama’s number should be after Nordyke’s.

  63. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 31, 2011 at 10:35 am #

    nc1: My comment about hacked database was about passport records. We know that the database had been hacked into and Obama’s records were breached. What was changed is not known.

    No, that’s not what happened. Someone who had access to passport records looked at some that they were not supposed to look at. Nothing was “hacked” and nothing was changed. The records peeked at were those of Obama, Clinton and McCain.

  64. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) January 31, 2011 at 10:42 am #

    nc1: My comment about hacked database was about passport records. We know that the database had been hacked into and Obama’s records were breached. What was changed is not known. The person in charge of investigation was named Vice-President. The person whose company was responsible for safe keeping of those records has been named as a security advisor.

    That’s a damned lie and you know it. I was the one you were having the discussion with. Your original comment was that the birth records database was hacked. You then said that the passport records were modified by Brennan without any proof.

  65. avatar
    Rickey January 31, 2011 at 11:11 am #

    nc1:
    Do you think for a second that a US Senator running for presidency cannot obtain a copy of the original birth certificate?

    I have no idea, since no previous US Senator running for President has ever been asked to produce his birth certificate. Of course, we never had a black U.S. Senator run for President before.

    He did not even authorize the DoH to release an uncertified copy of his COLB.

    Who asked Obama to authorize the DOH to release an uncertified copy of his COLB? Please provide a link to your evidence.

    It also does not make sense that DoH refuses to confirm the birth registration number shown on Obama’s document (the FactCheck image).

    I have yet to see any evidence that DOH has refused to confirm the birth registration number. If you have evidence of this, please point me to it. I hope that your source is someone other than Sharon Rondeau.

  66. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 31, 2011 at 11:30 am #

    nc1: You know very well that the first COLB image (the Daily Kos version) does not show the seal, bottom fold crease and the registration number is blacked out.

    The seal clearly present on the Daily Kos version if you look closely or you enhance the image. The fold is impossible to see, but I scanned my birth certificate and you can’t see the fold on it either. An enhanced version showing the seal is here:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/06/obamas-colb-sealed/

    There are no “flaws” in the Daily Kos version. Try again.

  67. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 31, 2011 at 11:55 am #

    nc1: If they were not legally married (how would you prove it?)

    Obama Sr’s prior Kenyan marriage is a matter of public record. Under Hawaiian law, a bigamous marriage is null and void. All one would have to show is that Hawaii recognizes a Kenyan tribal marriage and Obama is a citizen no matter where he was born.

    One parent or two (or zero) is an open question. My view is that the prevailing legal opinion is that Obama would be a natural born citizen if he were born a citizen, no matter where and no matter who his unmarried father was. However, there is no clear legal precedent to follow.

  68. avatar
    Black Lion January 31, 2011 at 2:50 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Obama Sr’s prior Kenyan marriage is a matter of public record. Under Hawaiian law, a bigamous marriage is null and void. All one would have to show is that Hawaii recognizes a Kenyan tribal marriage and Obama is a citizen no matter where he was born.One parent or two (or zero) is an open question. My view is that the prevailing legal opinion is that Obama would be a natural born citizen if he were born a citizen, no matter where and no matter who his unmarried father was. However, there is no clear legal precedent to follow.

    That is why I never understood the birther motive to prove that either Barack Sr. was not the President’s father or that he was a bigamist….Both possibilities hurt their argument. But for the birthers, it is always more important to insult the President than anything else…

  69. avatar
    Black Lion January 31, 2011 at 3:05 pm #

    Maybe some sanity emerges in Arizona?

    Arizona’s presidential citizenship bill worries Bennett
    .
    Updated: 1:54 am, Sat Jan 29, 2011.

    More than three dozen Republican legislators want plan to require Barack Obama to produce an original birth certificate for Arizona officials if he intends to seek reelection.

    HB 2544 would forbid the secretary of state from putting a presidential candidate’s name on the ballot unless certain documents were first provided. These include a sworn statements outlining where the candidate has lived for the last 14 years, that the candidate does not hold dual citizenship and that the person’s allegiance “is solely to the United States of America.”

    But what worries Ken Bennett, the current secretary of state, is that he also would have to be furnished “an original long form birth certificate that includes the date and place of birth, the names of the hospital and the attending physician and signatures of the witnesses in attendance.” Without that, he said, the measure would bar him from including the candidate’s name on the ballot.

    “I don’t know that’s on MY birth certificate, for goodness sakes” said Bennett, who was born in Tucson.

    Potentially more problematic, he said, is that each state has its own system of recording births. And Bennett, who is a Republican like all of the measure’s 41 sponsors, is not sure that its even possible to get an “original” birth certificate.

    For example, he said, people seeking birth certificates from many states, often for passports or other documentation, are instead furnished with a “certificate of live birth.” That usually takes the form of a state official certifying, under oath, that there are documents on file proving a specific person was born on a specified date.

    That’s not all, Bennett said, pointing to the requirement for the birth certificate to have the names of the attending physician and the signatures of witnesses.

    “If you were delivered at home with a midwife, does that mean you are no longer qualified to be the president of the United States?” he asked. “If there aren’t any signatures of witnesses in attendance, you’re no longer qualified?”

    And what, exactly, is a “long form birth certificate,” he asked.

    “Is that a standard term of art that means the same thing in all 50 states?” Bennett continued. “And is it even available in all 50 states?”

    Officially speaking, the legislation crafted by Rep. Judy Burges, R-Skull Valley, does not mention Obama. And Burges, who first sponsored a slightly different version of the measure last year, said it’s not necessarily about Obama, though she admitted she doubts he was born in Hawaii as he claims, or that he can show he is a U.S. citizen.

    “With what’s happening throughout the world, that we need to make sure that our candidates are certifiable,” she told Capitol Media Services when she introduced the first measure.

    Burges managed to get the measure through the House last year. The bill died in the Senate.

    That requirement for the “long form original,” appears designed with Obama in mind.

    Officials in Hawaii released a short-form version of the birth certificate when the issue first arose before the 2008 election.

    When that failed to satisfy critics, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the state’s health director, issued a statement saying he has “seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen.”

    Bennett seems satisfied.

    “I think he was born in Hawaii,” he said. “I personally believe he is a U.S. citizen.”

    Others sponsors of the legislation, though, apparently have their doubts.

    Rep. Carl Seel, R-Phoenix, told KPNX this week he believes Obama — and all presidential candidates — should provide proof of their citizenship. Asked specifically if he believes Obama is a citizen, Seel responded, “I have questions about that.”

    Bennett, acknowledging all the controversy, said he is sympathetic to the goal.

    “I think we need a legitimate and verifiable process for candidates to demonstrate that they meet the qualifications,” he said.

    “In the case of the president’s office … the best place is at the federal level so that each state is not doing its own, different thing,” Bennett continued. “But it seems, unfortunately obvious, that they’ve not sufficiently implemented such a process at the federal level or we wouldn’t be having these questions.”

    He added, though, that no process might be enough “in the minds of some people.”

    http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/arizona/politics/article_7d8bf3dc-2b41-11e0-bfbe-001cc4c03286.html

  70. avatar
    Majority Will January 31, 2011 at 3:15 pm #

    Black Lion: Maybe some sanity emerges in Arizona?Arizona’s presidential citizenship bill worries Bennett.
    Updated: 1:54 am, Sat Jan 29, 2011.http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/arizona/politics/article_7d8bf3dc-2b41-11e0-bfbe-001cc4c03286.html

    More of the same idiotic birther myths in the comments section, I see.

  71. avatar
    Black Lion January 31, 2011 at 4:50 pm #

    Majority Will: More of the same idiotic birther myths in the comments section, I see.

    The usual birther nimrods…The can’t understand that the COLB is a legitimate BC….

  72. avatar
    Majority Will January 31, 2011 at 5:03 pm #

    Black Lion:
    The usual birther nimrods…The can’t understand that the COLB is a legitimate BC….

    Which is quite telling since many states and presumably then many birthers would receive nearly the exact same type of certified copy when requesting a BC.

    Hypocrites. What’s worse is the damage WND and the Pest and E-Fall have done by deliberately feeding these idiots easily debunked lies and myths.

  73. avatar
    Stanislaw January 31, 2011 at 5:42 pm #

    ellid:
    You’re grasping at straws again, old sport.When are you going to give up?You’re no more right now than you were on the Independent two years ago.

    Hmmm…I thought that nc1’s recycled nonsense looked familiar. I guess he got tired of being wrong there and decided to be wrong somewhere else for a change.

  74. avatar
    BatGuano January 31, 2011 at 5:44 pm #

    Majority Will:
    More of the same idiotic birther myths in the comments section, I see.

    this one rules:

    ” A computer program calculated the chance of Obama being a U.S. citizen, there is a 97.6% chance he is not “

  75. avatar
    G January 31, 2011 at 5:44 pm #

    Majority Will: Hypocrites. What’s worse is the damage WND and the Pest and E-Fall have done by deliberately feeding these idiots easily debunked lies and myths.

    True, but that doesn’t let any gullible birthers off the hook.

    These folks desperately WANT to believe such things. They intetionally and with almost certainty, KNOWINGLY listen to and parrot from ONLY such fringe RW propoganda sites.

    Although I’m sure there are a few truly “gullibly misled” folks out there…such things don’t pass muster if they are presented with non-biased info that contradicts those notions and they refuse to acknowledge or digest the new info. To remain a “birther” for an extended period of time, one must WILLINGLY deny reality.

    Therefore, it is a choice for these folks. They so desperately WANT to believe RW lies… or at least to help spread them.

    They are therefore just as guilty and culpible for their own actions, statements and willful stupidity as the various con artists and birther sites spoon-feeding them this nonsense.

  76. avatar
    BatGuano January 31, 2011 at 6:32 pm #

    G: Although I’m sure there are a few truly “gullibly misled” folks out there…such things don’t pass muster if they are presented with non-biased info that contradicts those notions and they refuse to acknowledge or digest the new info. To remain a “birther” for an extended period of time, one must WILLINGLY deny reality.

    Therefore, it is a choice for these folks. They so desperately WANT to believe RW lies… or at least to help spread them.

    as my in-laws like to say ” there are SO many questions about his eligibility .”

    at this point i calmly, politely and systematically go thru all the questions and give them the the correct answers. to which i get ” that may be true but………. if something wasn’t up there wouldn’t be SO many questions.”

    i don’t think my in-laws are racist but they grew up in a time pre-civil rights. i don’t think it would have been fathomable to them, in their younger days, that a black man could be president. obama just by his physical presence alone is a symbol that things have changed.

    it just seems easier for them to think there is “something” to birtherism.

  77. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 31, 2011 at 8:14 pm #

    G: Although I’m sure there are a few truly “gullibly misled” folks out there…such things don’t pass muster if they are presented with non-biased info that contradicts those notions and they refuse to acknowledge or digest the new info. To remain a “birther” for an extended period of time, one must WILLINGLY deny reality.

    I personally think that virtually all of the birthers (meaning those who responded to the poll saying they thought Obama was born outside the country) are gullibly misled, and that because they only get their information on the topic from biased sources such as WorldNetDaily.

  78. avatar
    qwertyman January 31, 2011 at 8:59 pm #

    I feel that there are two types of birthers:

    1. The ignorant
    2. The intellectually dishonest

    As Doc just said, the vast majority of birthers fall into #1. They read a rumor on their favorite right wing sites that Obama might not be a citizen, and they trust that, and don’t dig any deeper. If you confront them they won’t actually concede, but you can generally tell that you’ve burst their bubble, and that going more than an inch deep into any birther issue shows that it’s full of bull.

    Those in #2 are the ones who are the most influential. Almost all of them are digging and working to spread this as far and wide as possible, and going the extra mile to come up with new tacks and stories and theories. And their number is probably no more than 20. And we know who they are: Orly, Donofrio, jbjd, RSoL Phil, Phil Berg, Apuzzo, a few prolific YouTube posters, and not all that many more. A few posters who pop up from time to time here, or on PJ/Fogbow and a few other places. These guys have bought fully into the narrative, and they are either lying to themselves or to everybody else, because so much time and effort has been expended on it, that they don’t want to admit to themselves that they’re wrong.

    Frankly, Lakin always struck me as a type #1 birther. His interview on CNN where he sat silently while Jensen tried to bring forward as many birther talking points as possible before Anderson Cooper shot him down seemed really telling to me. It’s not that he wanted to cover himself legally, it’s that he couldn’t say more than what was actually on the script Jensen wanted him to say in that first YouTube he posted. At his court martial, he didn’t double down and give every birther tack he possibly could; he pleaded guilty to almost every charge and threw himself at the mercy of the jury. He was being used the whole time (and to this day) by the Type #2 birthers who wanted more than anything else a “martyr” to the cause to use to drive up donations and spread their anti-American, anti-Constitution, anti-democratic, racist agenda.

  79. avatar
    G February 1, 2011 at 12:04 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I personally think that virtually all of the birthers (meaning those who responded to the poll saying they thought Obama was born outside the country) are gullibly misled, and that because they only get their information on the topic from biased sources such as WorldNetDaily.

    qwertyman: I feel that there are two types of birthers:
    1. The ignorant
    2. The intellectually dishonest
    As Doc just said, the vast majority of birthers fall into #1.

    I wish I didn’t feel so cynical on the topic as you two do. In the early days, it seemed like I ran into a fair amount of just “gullibly ignorant”. However, I haven’t seen any of their kind for well over a year now.

    It seems like most of what remains in even the #1 category is not just gullible or ignorant, but both wilfully and purposefully so…and even worse, proud of it.

    These folks aren’t really “victims” here. They desperately WANT to believe these lies and they’d rather cling to them, so they have an excuse to hate and demonize.

    I have no sympathy for that and consider that type of mentality just as culpable as the people who are manipulating them. They may be “pawns”, but they totally choose to be.

  80. avatar
    nc1 February 1, 2011 at 4:27 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): That’s a damned lie and you know it. I was the one you were having the discussion with. Your original comment was that the birth records database was hacked. You then said that the passport records were modified by Brennan without any proof.

    You can search my posts on this blog – you will not find the claim that DoH birth database was hacked. I said that COLB presented to the FactCheck is a forgery and that passport records database was hacked.

  81. avatar
    nc1 February 1, 2011 at 4:36 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I personally think that virtually all of the birthers (meaning those who responded to the poll saying they thought Obama was born outside the country) are gullibly misled, and that because they only get their information on the topic from biased sources such as WorldNetDaily.

    Yes, we were mislead by Kenyan ambassador, Kenyan minister of lands, Bill Richardson, newspaper articles mentioning birth in foreign country, DoH refusal to confirm trivial facts that are supposed to be in public domain according to Hawaii laws, inconvenient facts that registration number does not fit the Date Filed, first image posted on the web has no visible seal or bottom fold, Abercrombie’s “written down” thing,…

    All of this is just a WND invention, right!?

  82. avatar
    obsolete February 1, 2011 at 7:21 am #

    nc1: Yes, we were mislead by Kenyan ambassador, Kenyan minister of lands, Bill Richardson, newspaper articles mentioning birth in foreign country, DoH refusal to confirm trivial facts that are supposed to be in public domain according to Hawaii laws, inconvenient facts that registration number does not fit the Date Filed, first image posted on the web has no visible seal or bottom fold, Abercrombie’s “written down” thing,…

    Actually, you were really misled by yourself, because you WANT to believe and you want the scary black man to be gone as quick as possible.
    YOU made the decision, when confronted by a choice of believing either the random statements by an obscure Kenyan official or the sworn statements of the official Hawaiian keeper of records as well as the Republican Governor, to believe the Kenyan guy every time.
    Is it because he tricked you with all the evidence he presented? No, because he didn’t actually present any evidence. You just want what he says to be true, so very badly that you deceive yourself time after time.

  83. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 1, 2011 at 8:38 am #

    nc1: You can search my posts on this blog – you will not find the claim that DoH birth database was hacked. I said that COLB presented to the FactCheck is a forgery and that passport records database was hacked.

    I didn’t have to search too hard. One of the open threads from last week you said.

    nc1 January 24, 2011 at 12:47 am #
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): That is an absolute lie. It is actually much easier to forge the 1961 paper form as it lacked a lot of the security features built into the paper nowadays. The COLB is actually a lot harder to fake
    ——————–
    Are you serious? The COLB is printed using a database record. Hacking into a database is much easier than fixing the paper trail. You see, there is a handwritten original index (from 1961) somewhere in the DoH archive. It is much more difficult to insert a record into a book written 50 years ago than add a record into a database and then print out a list of names claiming it is the birth registration index. There is a second book (in the Kapiolani Hospital archive) that shows the names of people born there in 1961. A forger would have to take care of that book as well. It would not be easy to accomplish it.
    —————
    So there you go you were talking about hacking the database that had to do with birth registration. Now do you see why no one takes you seriously? You can’t even keep your lies straight.

  84. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 1, 2011 at 8:47 am #

    nc1: Yes, we were mislead by Kenyan ambassador, Kenyan minister of lands, Bill Richardson, newspaper articles mentioning birth in foreign country, DoH refusal to confirm trivial facts that are supposed to be in public domain according to Hawaii laws, inconvenient facts that registration number does not fit the Date Filed, first image posted on the web has no visible seal or bottom fold, Abercrombie’s “written down” thing,…All of this is just a WND invention, right!?

    There was no Kenyan ambassador who said such. Please name the ambassador and link to a credible source. The Kenyan Minister of lands presented no evidence of his claim. Why is it you guys didn’t try to get interviews from him? He had no access to birth records and so would have no knowledge of the claim. As for your Bill Richardson claim all I see is fringe sites posting this and claiming that in Spanish that Obama was an immigrant. There is no full video or context to prove the claim. As for newspaper articles: The inquirer and other tabloids don’t count as newspapers. If you say a kenyan paper said such then it seems you put more faith in Kenya than our own country. I dug up a few kenyan articles a while back that stated Obama was born in America. The first image was a scan. Its hard to see seals on a scanner. if you played with the contrast levels though it would be visible. So you have basically no evidence to back you up just wild claims.

  85. avatar
    Black Lion February 1, 2011 at 9:12 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): There was no Kenyan ambassador who said such. Please name the ambassador and link to a credible source. The Kenyan Minister of lands presented no evidence of his claim. Why is it you guys didn’t try to get interviews from him? He had no access to birth records and so would have no knowledge of the claim. As for your Bill Richardson claim all I see is fringe sites posting this and claiming that in Spanish that Obama was an immigrant. There is no full video or context to prove the claim. As for newspaper articles: The inquirer and other tabloids don’t count as newspapers. If you say a kenyan paper said such then it seems you put more faith in Kenya than our own country. I dug up a few kenyan articles a while back that stated Obama was born in America. The first image was a scan. Its hard to see seals on a scanner. if you played with the contrast levels though it would be visible. So you have basically no evidence to back you up just wild claims.

    Bob, but that is the usual MO…If you ever look at the so called list of birther evidence it is never anything that could even come close to being legally admissible. For instance there are some that sitll believe that Obama admitted that he was not natural born to Alan Keyes in the infamous Senate debate even though there is no evidence of that and even Keyes himself has never confirmed it. They would rather believe some obscure newspaper articles than the NY TImes and other real journalistic papers that have stated on numerour occasions that the President was born in America. They think that somehow a couple of minor Kenyan politicans are more believable that the American Republican administration of HI. However they never actually attempt to depose the so called Kenyan officals or the step grandmother, who they claim said that Obama was born in Kenya. NC1 and others are never taken seriously because they can never provide real evidence to support their wild accusations, just hearsay and lies….

    Lets be honest. If the birthers were really interested in litigating this issue they would have appealed the State of IN decision to the SCOTUS. They would have required that the infamous Tim Adams be deposed under oath and specify names. They would request an interview with Governor Abercrombie to clarify his statements. This is what legitimate people do. The birthers are all about smearing the President. So seeing his approval rating in the 50% range must drive them crazy. The bottom line is that they will never go away…

  86. avatar
    Black Lion February 1, 2011 at 9:46 am #

    Perfect example is how the birthers recycle the a discredited “API” article to make it seem like it was legitimate….from the Dr Kate house of hate….

    Quantum Leap
    January 30, 2011 at 10:12 pm
    Yes and look back at this old news during the last campaign:

    Decipher this?

    The API is not backing down.

    Dear God, we must never wonder such things aloud.

    African Press International is standing by their story from yesterday.
    The news agency yesterday reported that they talked with Michelle Obama and she was very angry with their reporting:

    Mrs Obama was angered and she came out loud with the following: “African press International is supposed to support Africans and African-American view,” and she went to state that, “it is strange that API has chosen to support the racists against my husband. There is no shame in being adopted by a step father. All dirt has been thrown onto my husband’s face and yet he loves this country. My husband and I know that there is no law that will stop him from becoming the president, just because some American white racists are bringing up the issue of my husband’s adoption by His step father. The important thing here is where my husband’s heart is at the moment. I can tell the American people that My husband loves this country and his adoption never changed his love for this country. He was born in Hawaii, yes, and that gives him all the right to be an American citizen even though he was adopted by a foreigner; says Michelle Obama on telefon to API.”

    I just hate to caption those pics. They are too awful.

    http://drkatesview.wordpress.com/2011/01/30/the-wtf-campaign/

  87. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 1, 2011 at 10:00 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): There was no Kenyan ambassador who said such.

    This is in reference to a WRIF radio telephone interview (Mike in the Morning show) where the Kenyan Ambassador to the United States, Peter N.R.O. Ogego, said that Obama’s birthplace in Kenya was a well-known attraction. (This would have to be a reference to Kogelo Village, which has become a tourist attraction.) The Ambassador’s secretary later clarified and said that the Ambassador did not know where PRESIDENT Obama was born.

  88. avatar
    Majority Will February 1, 2011 at 10:00 am #

    Speaking of birther edited and discredited newspaper stories:

    Paul Colford, director of media relations for the Associated Press: “The AP has never reported that President Obama was born in Kenya. In fact, AP news stories about the state of Hawaii have confirmed that he was born there. The Kenyan paper that you cite rewrote a 2004 AP story, adding the phrase ‘Kenyan-born.’ That wording was not in the AP version of the story.”

  89. avatar
    Majority Will February 1, 2011 at 10:06 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    This is in reference to a WRIF radio telephone interview (Mike in the Morning show) where the Kenyan Ambassador to the United States, Peter N.R.O. Ogego, said that Obama’s birthplace in Kenya was a well-known attraction.

    Isn’t this the same Ogego who got livid and became extremely angry and defensive over accusations and criticism of political corruption by Obama?

  90. avatar
    nc1 February 1, 2011 at 10:53 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): There was no Kenyan ambassador who said such. Please name the ambassador and link to a credible source. The Kenyan Minister of lands presented no evidence of his claim. Why is it you guys didn’t try to get interviews from him? He had no access to birth records and so would have no knowledge of the claim. As for your Bill Richardson claim all I see is fringe sites posting this and claiming that in Spanish that Obama was an immigrant. There is no full video or context to prove the claim. As for newspaper articles: The inquirer and other tabloids don’t count as newspapers. If you say a kenyan paper said such then it seems you put more faith in Kenya than our own country. I dug up a few kenyan articles a while back that stated Obama was born in America. The first image was a scan. Its hard to see seals on a scanner. if you played with the contrast levels though it would be visible. So you have basically no evidence to back you up just wild claims.

    Listen to his interview on YouTube. The ambassador mentioned that his paternal grandmother was still alive. It is absolutely clear that he was not talking about Obama senior.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH4GX3Otf14

    Our government is hiding public documents that would tell us where he was born. I don’t hear you asking for the release of these documents. Afraid what they may show?

  91. avatar
    nc1 February 1, 2011 at 11:11 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): I didn’t have to search too hard. One of the open threads from last week you said.nc1 January 24, 2011 at 12:47 am #Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): That is an absolute lie. It is actually much easier to forge the 1961 paper form as it lacked a lot of the security features built into the paper nowadays. The COLB is actually a lot harder to fake——————–Are you serious? The COLB is printed using a database record. Hacking into a database is much easier than fixing the paper trail. You see, there is a handwritten original index (from 1961) somewhere in the DoH archive. It is much more difficult to insert a record into a book written 50 years ago than add a record into a database and then print out a list of names claiming it is the birth registration index. There is a second book (in the Kapiolani Hospital archive) that shows the names of people born there in 1961. A forger would have to take care of that book as well. It would not be easy to accomplish it.—————So there you go you were talking about hacking the database that had to do with birth registration. Now do you see why no one takes you seriously? You can’t even keep your lies straight.

    I was talking about hypothetical situation. We were talking about what was more difficult to forge: an old original document or a recent document printed from a database.

    If you followed my posts on this blog you know that I don’t believe that Hawaii DoH issued COLB to Obama – that is the reason why they refuse to confirm June 6, 2007 as the date of issuing.

  92. avatar
    Sef February 1, 2011 at 11:21 am #

    nc1:
    I was talking about hypothetical situation.We were talking about what was more difficult to forge: an old original document or a recent document printed from a database.If you followed my posts on this blog you know that I don’t believe that Hawaii DoH issued COLB to Obama – that is the reason why they refuse to confirm June 6, 2007 as the date of issuing.

    If Hi DOH were to issue another birth certificate to Obama today it would be a “Certificate” instead of a “Certification” (they changed the form last year). It would contain the exact same information that the one from 2007 had. I don’t know who would be signing it, as that could have changed with the admin change. It would contain a current date. What is your point?

  93. avatar
    Black Lion February 1, 2011 at 11:31 am #

    nc1: Listen to his interview on YouTube. The ambassador mentioned that his paternal grandmother was still alive. It is absolutely clear that he was not talking about Obama senior.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH4GX3Otf14Our government is hiding public documents that would tell us where he was born. I don’t hear you asking for the release of these documents. Afraid what they may show?

    Which shows you that the ambassador doesn’t have a clue. This is why the birthers always fail The President’s paternal grandmother is not alive. The woman that the birthers claim said Obama was born in HI and that the ambassador may be referencing is the step-grandmother….So if the ambassador was wrong regarding who the person was/is, then why would we even come close to believing that he was “right” when claiming that the President was born in Kenya….In other words he is claiming a dead woman is alive….

    But this can be resolved easily. Why not depose the ambassador under oath? See what he says on the record. Why do you and the other birthers refuse to do that? You claim that at best ambiguous claims are “evidence” and proof of something, but you never take the logical step and attempt to get this evidence “on the record” where it actually means something. Why is that? And you never mention that the ambassador “recanted” the so called claim and stated for the record that he misspoke and that the President was not born in Kenya. So which is it?

  94. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 1, 2011 at 11:34 am #

    nc1: Listen to his interview on YouTube. The ambassador mentioned that his paternal grandmother was still alive. It is absolutely clear that he was not talking about Obama senior.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH4GX3Otf14Our government is hiding public documents that would tell us where he was born. I don’t hear you asking for the release of these documents. Afraid what they may show?

    Sorry can’t watch youtube videos where I’m at. So what about the paternal grandmother?

    The government isn’t hiding anything. You don’t have a right to the documents and its downright racist that you want him to “show his papers” when you required it of no previous president. The documents that have been released have shown that he was born in Hawaii. Now what actual evidence can you point to that proves otherwise?

  95. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 1, 2011 at 11:37 am #

    nc1: I was talking about hypothetical situation. We were talking about what was more difficult to forge: an old original document or a recent document printed from a database.If you followed my posts on this blog you know that I don’t believe that Hawaii DoH issued COLB to Obama – that is the reason why they refuse to confirm June 6, 2007 as the date of issuing.

    Oh you were talking about a hypothetical of hacking the birth database and then claimed you said nothing about the birth database. It is much easier to forge the older document than the one with multiple security features. It’s hard to follow your posts since they are all over the map and include wild conspiracies and continued jumping around by you. First you wanted a birth certificate, he showed it then you wanted the DOH to confirm it which they did 3 times. Now you want them to confirm that they released it on that specific date. Next you’re going to want them to confirm the type of paper it was on, which printer it came from and every person in the office who handled it. You’re being absurd.

  96. avatar
    nc1 February 1, 2011 at 11:42 am #

    Sef: If Hi DOH were to issue another birth certificate to Obama today it would be a “Certificate” instead of a “Certification” (they changed the form last year). It would contain the exact same information that the one from 2007 had. I don’t know who would be signing it, as that could have changed with the admin change. It would contain a current date. What is your point?

    The point is simple – such document would not show registration number 10641 as indicated on the FactCheck document.

    Abercrombie can confirm that the registration number 10641 is part of Obama’s index data – his lawyers know it. If they were really trying to inform the public, they could do it.

  97. avatar
    nc1 February 1, 2011 at 11:47 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Sorry can’t watch youtube videos where I’m at. So what about the paternal grandmother?The government isn’t hiding anything. You don’t have a right to the documents and its downright racist that you want him to “show his papers” when you required it of no previous president. The documents that have been released have shown that he was born in Hawaii. Now what actual evidence can you point to that proves otherwise?

    Government is hiding passport records for Obama’s mother.

    Government is hiding the original birth registration index from 1961. At least the DOH could confirm that number 10641 was issued to Obama.

    Government is also hiding the evidence that they issued COLB to Obama campaign on June 6, 2007.

    None of the above mentioned documents/confirmations depend on Obama’s good will. It should be public data.

  98. avatar
    Black Lion February 1, 2011 at 11:50 am #

    nc1: The point is simple – such document would not show registration number 10641 as indicated on the FactCheck document. Abercrombie can confirm that the registration number 10641 is part of Obama’s index data – his lawyers know it. If they were really trying to inform the public, they could do it.

    You don’t know that at all. You are making an assumption with no sort of evidence. How about you show us a list of BC’s from 1961 issued around the same time as the President’s? And not the Nordykes because no one has verified that BC as being legitimate. I don’t recall the state of HI issuing a statement saying that the Nordykes were born in HI or tha their BC is an official state of HI BC. So we just have your word that it is legitimate. And we don’t have any other BC’s or COLB’s from that period to verify that either number is correct. Abercrombie cannot confirm anything…And we all know you would then require him to release whatever he viewed to verify the number knowing he couldn’t, then claim that he was lying to cover for Obama….We all know how that will go. Again you supply us with no evidence. Just an alleged BC from some lady that claims her daughters were born at that time. No supporting evidence. No question to the hospital to see if the BC is genuine or asking the doctor if he in fact delivered those twins….Can you show us any proof of legitimacy of the Nordyke BC or of their alleged registration numbers? Come on, you are requesting that of the President’s info, so I would assume that you would be a through with your so called evidence…

  99. avatar
    nc1 February 1, 2011 at 11:51 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Sorry can’t watch youtube videos where I’m at. So what about the paternal grandmother?The government isn’t hiding anything. You don’t have a right to the documents and its downright racist that you want him to “show his papers” when you required it of no previous president. The documents that have been released have shown that he was born in Hawaii. Now what actual evidence can you point to that proves otherwise?

    Paternal grandmother reference was used by Kenyan Ambassador in an interview to a radio station. It shows that he was talking about pResident-elect Obama and not about his father.

  100. avatar
    Sef February 1, 2011 at 11:53 am #

    nc1: Abercrombie can confirm that the registration number 10641 is part of Obama’s index data – his lawyers know it. If they were really trying to inform the public, they could do it.

    So you think “10641” was stamped on Obama’s big toe at birth?

  101. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 1, 2011 at 11:57 am #

    nc1: Paternal grandmother reference was used by Kenyan Ambassador in an interview to a radio station. It shows that he was talking about pResident-elect Obama and not about his father.

    What was he saying about the paternal grandmother because his paternal grandmother is dead the step grandmother is alive. So which one was he talking about?

  102. avatar
    Black Lion February 1, 2011 at 11:57 am #

    nc1: Government is hiding passport records for Obama’s mother. Government is hiding the original birth registration index from 1961. At least the DOH could confirm that number 10641 was issued to Obama.Government is also hiding the evidence that they issued COLB to Obama campaign on June 6, 2007.None of the above mentioned documents/confirmations depend on Obama’s good will. It should be public data.

    Note how NC1 ignores direct questions regarding the fact that the ambassador made a mistake on who he was referencing, which casts doubt on his entire statement. In other words NC1 wants us to believe he made a mistake regarding one part of his statement but was correct on the other part. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. His so called statement has been impeached by the fact that he didn’t know who he was referencing regarding the President’s relative…paternal grandmother or step-grandmother….

    Then you claim the usual government conspiracy that somehow the government is hiding records….Amazing…

  103. avatar
    Black Lion February 1, 2011 at 12:00 pm #

    nc1: Paternal grandmother reference was used by Kenyan Ambassador in an interview to a radio station. It shows that he was talking about pResident-elect Obama and not about his father.

    So he was referencing someone who is deceased? Because there is no paternal grandmother alive now or at the time of the alleged interview….So again he was wrong about that but he is correct about him being born in Kenya? Really?

  104. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 1, 2011 at 12:02 pm #

    nc1: Government is hiding passport records for Obama’s mother. Government is hiding the original birth registration index from 1961. At least the DOH could confirm that number 10641 was issued to Obama.Government is also hiding the evidence that they issued COLB to Obama campaign on June 6, 2007.None of the above mentioned documents/confirmations depend on Obama’s good will. It should be public data.

    You’re assuming they are because no information before 1965 was released. You’re also assuming she had a passport before 1965. If she didn’t have one no records would be released. This is much like the FOIA requests for Barry Soetoro which aren’t going anywhere because they’re no proof Barry Soetoro ever existed. You sure whine a lot you get a confirmation then you want further confirmations. You have access to the birth index you can see that Obama was born of Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack Obama Senior on August 4, 1961 in Honolulu, HI. Your problem with the number is moot at this point.

  105. avatar
    Majority Will February 1, 2011 at 12:13 pm #

    Black Lion:
    You don’t know that at all.You are making an assumption with no sort of evidence.How about you show us a list of BC’s from 1961 issued around the same time as the President’s?And not the Nordykes because no one has verified that BC as being legitimate.I don’t recall the state of HI issuing a statement saying that the Nordykes were born in HI or tha their BC is an official state of HI BC.So we just have your word that it is legitimate.And we don’t have any other BC’s or COLB’s from that period to verify that either number is correct.Abercrombie cannot confirm anything…And we all know you would then require him to release whatever he viewed to verify the number knowing he couldn’t, then claim that he was lying to cover for Obama….We all know how that will go.Again you supply us with no evidence.Just an alleged BC from some lady that claims her daughters were born at that time.No supporting evidence.No question to the hospital to see if the BC is genuine or asking the doctor if he in fact delivered those twins….Can you show us any proof of legitimacy of the Nordyke BC or of their alleged registration numbers?Come on, you are requesting that of the President’s info, so I would assume that you would be a through with your so called evidence…

    And I’m convinced that nc1 is most likely mentally ill and undoubtedly motivated by rabid hatred and bigotry.

    She has used the exact same b.s. hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of time going back over two years.

    She knows she won’t convince anyone which is what makes her a pathetic troll.

    Her repetition is an obsessive compulsive power game to assert her poisonous, diseased mindset.

    You will notice that she is not know nor has she ever been interested in the truth but merely arguing the same debunked myths ad nauseam to prop her confirmation bias, soothe her painful dissonance and project her deeply ingrained fear and hatred of dark skinned people and especially President Barack Hussein Obama II.

    Like all sick conspiracy theorists, merely “having questions” makes them think they have the assurance of a cover up, fraud and illegitimacy regardless of their complete lack of credible evidence and actual, credible evidence to the contrary.

    And like every other birther troll, responding to her repetitive, nonsensical rambling and baseless paranoia just keeps pulling her See ‘n Say – Birther Editionâ„¢ string.

  106. avatar
    Black Lion February 1, 2011 at 12:48 pm #

    Majority Will: And I’m convinced that nc1 is most likely mentally ill and undoubtedly motivated by rabid hatred and bigotry.She has used the exact same b.s. hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of time going back over two years.She knows she won’t convince anyone which is what makes her a pathetic troll.Her repetition is an obsessive compulsive power game to assert her poisonous, diseased mindset.You will notice that she is not know nor has she ever been interested in the truth but merely arguing the same debunked myths ad nauseam to prop her confirmation bias, soothe her painful dissonance and project her deeply ingrained fear and hatred of dark skinned people and especially President Barack Hussein Obama II.Like all sick conspiracy theorists, merely “having questions” makes them think they have the assurance of a cover up, fraud and illegitimacy regardless of their complete lack of credible evidence and actual, credible evidence to the contrary.And like every other birther troll, responding to her repetitive, nonsensical rambling and baseless paranoia just keeps pulling her See n Say – Birther Editionâ„¢ string.

    Will, I agree 100%. She never addresses any issues and keeps bringing up the same debunked info and then disappears…I like how she ignored the fact that the so called Kenyan ambassador was wrong about the President’s grandmother being alive….Yet in her view we are now to believe that he was wrong about that but right about being born in Kenya….Kind of like the Indonesian school registration form…they like to push the fact that he is called Soetero but ignore the fact that it says he was born in HI….The birthers are hilarious….Even their own “evidence” undermines their ridiculous claims…..

  107. avatar
    G February 1, 2011 at 10:29 pm #

    Majority Will: And I’m convinced that nc1 is most likely mentally ill and undoubtedly motivated by rabid hatred and bigotry.
    She has used the exact same b.s. hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of time going back over two years.
    She knows she won’t convince anyone which is what makes her a pathetic troll.
    Her repetition is an obsessive compulsive power game to assert her poisonous, diseased mindset.
    You will notice that she is not know nor has she ever been interested in the truth but merely arguing the same debunked myths ad nauseam to prop her confirmation bias, soothe her painful dissonance and project her deeply ingrained fear and hatred of dark skinned people and especially President Barack Hussein Obama II.
    Like all sick conspiracy theorists, merely “having questions” makes them think they have the assurance of a cover up, fraud and illegitimacy regardless of their complete lack of credible evidence and actual, credible evidence to the contrary.
    And like every other birther troll, responding to her repetitive, nonsensical rambling and baseless paranoia just keeps pulling her See n Say – Birther Editionâ„¢ string.

    Agreed. On all points.

  108. avatar
    nc1 February 2, 2011 at 2:34 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): You’re assuming they are because no information before 1965 was released. You’re also assuming she had a passport before 1965. If she didn’t have one no records would be released. This is much like the FOIA requests for Barry Soetoro which aren’t going anywhere because they’re no proof Barry Soetoro ever existed. You sure whine a lot you get a confirmation then you want further confirmations. You have access to the birth index you can see that Obama was born of Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack Obama Senior on August 4, 1961 in Honolulu, HI. Your problem with the number is moot at this point.

    1. Government is hiding some passport documents for Obama’s mother. How do we know: the earliest document that was released is an application for passport RENEWAL. What happened to the original? It is still hidden in the archive.

    2. There is no access to birth index for a specific date. DoH only included the name and sex, claiming that this was the index data. Registration number and date were never included.

  109. avatar
    nc1 February 2, 2011 at 2:42 am #

    Black Lion: Will, I agree 100%. She never addresses any issues and keeps bringing up the same debunked info and then disappears…I like how she ignored the fact that the so called Kenyan ambassador was wrong about the President’s grandmother being alive….Yet in her view we are now to believe that he was wrong about that but right about being born in Kenya….Kind of like the Indonesian school registration form…they like to push the fact that he is called Soetero but ignore the fact that it says he was born in HI….The birthers are hilarious….Even their own “evidence” undermines their ridiculous claims…..

    This is what Huffington Post reported back in the day:
    “Sarah Obama, Barack Obama’s Kenyan, paternal grandmother, will soon arrive in Washington DC for her grandson’s inauguration on January 20. ”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/13/sarah-obama-baracks-kenya_n_157449.html

  110. avatar
    Majority Will February 2, 2011 at 6:05 am #

    (Yea, it goes like this, here it goes)
    Paranoia, the destroyer
    (Here’s to paranoia)
    Paranoia, the destroyer
    (Hey hey, here it goes)
    Paranoia, the destroyer
    (And it goes like this)

    Paranoia, the destroyer
    (And it goes like this.)

  111. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 2, 2011 at 10:28 am #

    nc1: 1. Government is hiding some passport documents for Obama’s mother. How do we know: the earliest document that was released is an application for passport RENEWAL. What happened to the original? It is still hidden in the archive. 2. There is no access to birth index for a specific date. DoH only included the name and sex, claiming that this was the index data. Registration number and date were never included.

    You don’t know that. You’re only assuming that they are. So far you haven’t been able to prove that she had a passport during the time that Obama was born. Until you can prove that you got nothing but your own delusions.

    You can look up Obama in the birth index. He appears. That’s all you need to know. The registration number is irrelevant. If his name appears in the birth index, he has a COLB all this points to him being born in Hawaii.

  112. avatar
    Rickey February 2, 2011 at 2:31 pm #

    nc1:
    This is what Huffington Post reported back in the day:
    “Sarah Obama, Barack Obama’s Kenyan, paternal grandmother, will soon arrive in Washington DC for her grandson’s inauguration on January 20. ”http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/13/sarah-obama-baracks-kenya_n_157449.html

    And if you read past the headline, you see this:

    “The article also mentions that President-elect Obama is not well-acquainted with his grandmother, who is actually the stepmother of his Kenyan father.

  113. avatar
    Judge Mental February 2, 2011 at 4:28 pm #

    nc1 is beyond confused.

    She expresses a belief that Hawaii did not issue a COLB for Obama on 6th June 2007 and a few posts later then expresses a belief that Hawaii are hiding the evidence that they released a COLB to Obama on 6th June 2007. Brilliant!

  114. avatar
    Black Lion February 2, 2011 at 4:59 pm #

    Rickey:

    Typical move by NC1, showing why birthers always fail in supporting their wild claims….meaning in her haste to prove that everyone thought that Sarah Obama was the President’s grandmother, which in turn would make her so called Kenyan ambassador statement look like evidence, she links to an article that debunks her so called evidence….Hilarious….Of course she never addresses the fact that President Obama’s grandmother is dead and the so called ambassador’s statement is meaningless…

  115. avatar
    Majority Will February 2, 2011 at 5:02 pm #

    Rickey:

    Reading comprehension and birtherism have never been acquainted or even on speaking terms.

  116. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 2, 2011 at 5:05 pm #

    Judge Mental: She expresses a belief that Hawaii did not issue a COLB for Obama on 6th June 2007 and a few posts later then expresses a belief that Hawaii are hiding the evidence that they released a COLB to Obama on 6th June 2007. Brilliant!

    This is a symptom of something I have pointed out before. Birthers are denialists. They have no coherent alternate theory of events; they just say “no” to everything that supports President Obama’s eligibility to be president.

    Because they have no alternate version of events to explain all the facts (except that “everybody’s lying”) they will naturally contradict themselves often.

  117. avatar
    Majority Will February 2, 2011 at 5:11 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    This is a symptom of something I have pointed out before. Birthers are denialists. They have no coherent alternate theory of events; they just say “no” to everything that supports President Obama’s eligibility to be president.Because they have no alternate version of events to explain all the facts (except that “everybody’s lying”) they will naturally contradict themselves often.

    Goalposts with big, knobby tires and 4WD.

  118. avatar
    nc1 February 4, 2011 at 12:55 am #

    Judge Mental: nc1 is beyond confused. She expresses a belief that Hawaii did not issue a COLB for Obama on 6th June 2007 and a few posts later then expresses a belief that Hawaii are hiding the evidence that they released a COLB to Obama on 6th June 2007. Brilliant!

    There is no confusion – I don’t believe that DoH issued a COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007.

    I simply questioned from your viewpoint – if you were right and DoH issued the COLB on June 6, 2007 – they have been hiding something you think is a fact. That is why I asked why you thought they kept hiding the evidence.

    I don’t think they hide the evidence – they hide the lack of it.

  119. avatar
    nc1 February 4, 2011 at 1:15 am #

    Black Lion: Typical move by NC1, showing why birthers always fail in supporting their wild claims….meaning in her haste to prove that everyone thought that Sarah Obama was the President’s grandmother, which in turn would make her so called Kenyan ambassador statement look like evidence, she links to an article that debunks her so called evidence….Hilarious….Of course she never addresses the fact that President Obama’s grandmother is dead and the so called ambassador’s statement is meaningless…

    You need to think things through before posting.

    Did you read what the author of the Huffington Post article thought? The article uses the phrase “paternal grandmother” – did it occur to you that the Ambassador used the same language. The role in the family is important not just the biological connection.

    According to your logic, when people adopt children they should not call them son or daughter but stepson or a stepdaughter.

    Let me give you another analogy – when Michelle Obama used phrase “home country” while talking about Kenya, according to Obama supporters, she did not litterally mean the country where her husband was born but the country of his ancestors.

    Why are you using different standard when judging what the Ambassador said?

  120. avatar
    The Magic M February 4, 2011 at 4:51 am #

    > I don’t think they hide the evidence – they hide the lack of it.

    Yes, the typical “absence of evidence is evidence of absence” meme that any good conspiracy theory employs.
    It just doesn’t work that way. If you have evidence, show it. If you have no evidence, that is not evidence for anything (except for you making things up as you go along).

    Suppose I sell you my house. I’ve also shown you the required papers proving I owned the house at the time of sale. Now you come and demand to see a verification that these papers were really issued to me and when, plus sworn testimony from the previous owner that he sold it to me, plus a pony. No getty, my dear.

  121. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 4, 2011 at 9:14 am #

    nc1: You need to think things through before posting. Did you read what the author of the Huffington Post article thought? The article uses the phrase “paternal grandmother” – did it occur to you that the Ambassador used the same language. The role in the family is important not just the biological connection.According to your logic, when people adopt children they should not call them son or daughter but stepson or a stepdaughter. Let me give you another analogy – when Michelle Obama used phrase “home country” while talking about Kenya, according to Obama supporters, she did not litterally mean the country where her husband was born but the country of his ancestors.Why are you using different standard when judging what the Ambassador said?

    How is that a different standard? Home country or home land is generally understood to mean the country of one’s ancestors especially in the context it is said. Also there’s a difference between a paternal grandmother which implies a blood relative and a step grandmother which does not. What was the point of even bringing the grandmother up?

  122. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 4, 2011 at 9:15 am #

    The Magic M: > I don’t think they hide the evidence – they hide the lack of it.Yes, the typical “absence of evidence is evidence of absence” meme that any good conspiracy theory employs.It just doesn’t work that way. If you have evidence, show it. If you have no evidence, that is not evidence for anything (except for you making things up as you go along).Suppose I sell you my house. I’ve also shown you the required papers proving I owned the house at the time of sale. Now you come and demand to see a verification that these papers were really issued to me and when, plus sworn testimony from the previous owner that he sold it to me, plus a pony. No getty, my dear.

    But I want a pony!

  123. avatar
    Majority Will February 4, 2011 at 9:16 am #

    “I don’t think they hide the evidence – they hide the lack of it.”

    Paranoia like that is an essential component of insanity.

    Keep chasing shadows idiot birthers.

    Truly pathetic and disturbed.

  124. avatar
    Black Lion February 4, 2011 at 9:45 am #

    nc1: You need to think things through before posting. Did you read what the author of the Huffington Post article thought? The article uses the phrase “paternal grandmother” – did it occur to you that the Ambassador used the same language. The role in the family is important not just the biological connection.According to your logic, when people adopt children they should not call them son or daughter but stepson or a stepdaughter. Let me give you another analogy – when Michelle Obama used phrase “home country” while talking about Kenya, according to Obama supporters, she did not litterally mean the country where her husband was born but the country of his ancestors.Why are you using different standard when judging what the Ambassador said?

    First of all you are the one that is implying that the ambassador’s comments mean anything. I said that he made a mistake regarding place of birth, just like he did with confusing the President’s dead grandmother with his step-grandmother, who is alive. You can’t have it both ways. If you want to imply that somehow his comments have evidentary value, you have to also accept that he was INCORRECT in referencing someone who is not alive and could not have said anything. In other words you want us to ignore where he was wrong (grandmother vs. step-grandmother) but accept his comments regarding that the President was born in Kenya. OK. My response is that he was as wrong with his place of birth as he was with saying grandmother as opposed to step-grandmother. Secondly Sarah Obama never adopted Barack Obama, so your comparison is worthless. And just becasue the Huff post got it wrong also doesn’t mean that it was a common mistake. There were many articles, even the infamous Bishop McRae tape that got it right in describing her as his stepgrandmother. So again your argument is an epic fail.

  125. avatar
    Sef February 4, 2011 at 10:21 am #

    Majority Will: “I don’t think they hide the evidence – they hide the lack of it.”

    How big is the box that you need in which to hide lack of evidence?

  126. avatar
    The Magic M February 4, 2011 at 11:25 am #

    > But I want a pony!

    I already got first dibs if ever any shows up in the entire birtherpalooza.

    As a funny side note, the proverbial pony is an office joke in my company – as in “Why did you leave the meeting early? Everyone who stayed got a pony!”. That’s quite uncommon in Germany, probably a growing meme imported from English.

    > How big is the box that you need in which to hide lack of evidence?

    The empty set would suffice. But I ran out of empty sets, probably I need to collect some birther braincells to refill my stock.

    > In other words you want us to ignore where he was wrong (grandmother vs. step-grandmother) but accept his comments regarding that the President was born in Kenya.

    Didn’t we see this birther reasoning with the Indonesian school application document? Where they took as gospel the line “Name: Barry Soetoro” but totally disregarded/ignored the line “Birthplace: Honolulu”?

  127. avatar
    Majority Will February 4, 2011 at 2:19 pm #

    Sef:
    How big is the box that you need in which to hide lack of evidence?

    That’s a question for Lewis Carroll, Erwin Schrödinger, Monty Python or M.C. Escher.

  128. avatar
    nc1 February 5, 2011 at 4:08 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): How is that a different standard? Home country or home land is generally understood to mean the country of one’s ancestors especially in the context it is said. Also there’s a difference between a paternal grandmother which implies a blood relative and a step grandmother which does not. What was the point of even bringing the grandmother up?

    The point is simple – Ambassador mentioned that “his paternal grandmother” was alive. He was talking about Sarah Obama, not about Obama Sr’s grandmother. Ambasador’s comments about birth in Kenya were comments about senator Obama not his father.

    The same phrase “parental grandmother” was used by Huffington Post to desribe Sarah Obama in their article about inauguration. I used the example to show that the phrase is used in both cases for biological and step-grandparents. Similarly, within adoptive families, members use words son, daughter, mother and father even though there is no biological connection.

    The phrase “home country” is used in both situations – for country where ancestors came from or a country where person was born.

  129. avatar
    nc1 February 5, 2011 at 4:17 am #

    The Magic M: > I don’t think they hide the evidence – they hide the lack of it.Yes, the typical “absence of evidence is evidence of absence” meme that any good conspiracy theory employs.It just doesn’t work that way. If you have evidence, show it. If you have no evidence, that is not evidence for anything (except for you making things up as you go along).Suppose I sell you my house. I’ve also shown you the required papers proving I owned the house at the time of sale. Now you come and demand to see a verification that these papers were really issued to me and when, plus sworn testimony from the previous owner that he sold it to me, plus a pony. No getty, my dear.

    Your house selling analogy is faulty. The more appropriate would be a case when you wanted to sell a house and instead of showing the title papers you refered to an image posted on the web.

    If your propsective buyer asked the issuing institution whether they sent you the house title and not received the answer – would you blame the customer for being sceptical about your claim to be a rightful owner?

  130. avatar
    The Magic M February 5, 2011 at 5:54 am #

    > The more appropriate would be a case when you wanted to sell a house and instead of showing the title papers you refered to an image posted on the web.

    Well, if I was advertising my house, I could hardly send a certified copy of the papers to anyone in the country, could I?

    > If your propsective buyer asked the issuing institution whether they sent you the house title and not received the answer – would you blame the customer for being sceptical about your claim to be a rightful owner?

    No, if said institution’s regulations say that such info is not publically disclosed, I wouldn’t.

    And if I still were skeptical, I would just buy another house but I wouldn’t demand papers from the seller of a house I didn’t even buy.

  131. avatar
    Majority Will February 5, 2011 at 9:04 am #

    nc1:
    Birther vomit.

    The point is you’re still an idiot.

  132. avatar
    Majority Will February 5, 2011 at 9:06 am #

    “parental grandmother”

    Which is nothing like a paternal grandmother, mind you.

    Birther idiot.

  133. avatar
    Keith February 5, 2011 at 9:37 am #

    nc1:
    Your house selling analogy is faulty. The more appropriate would be a case when you wanted to sell a house and instead of showing the title papers you refered to an image posted on the web.

    No, a more appropriate analogy is the prospective buyer wanted to be sure of the property dimensions, so you posted a copy of the title on line for him to access. The image is not the title, but the information on the image is what is relevant.

    If your propsective buyer asked the issuing institution whether they sent you the house title and not received the answer – would you blame the customer for being sceptical about your claim to be a rightful owner?

    Yes. It is none of your business what the title office has or has not sent to me, the owner. You are entitled to the results of the title search when regulations permit. The titles office has no obligation to you to report on what services it has provided to others.

    There is a prescribed methodology for doing a title search, and it is the customer’s responsibility to ensure that is done. In some jurisdictions, the vendor performs it and makes it available to the contracted (or MOA) buyer upon request. In some jurisdictions it is the contracted (or MOA) buyer’s responsibility (as in Buyer Beware).

    Your analogy breaks down anyway. Unlike birth records, title records are public records and you can pay your fee and get a title search on any property you want.The result of a title search will not, of course, be a Title or even a photo of the title document, but a simple uncertified list of previous owners, caveats, and leans. In many ways this is equivalent to the birth index data that you are allowed to see, so I guess in this way, your analogy does hold up.

    On the other hand, your analogy is actually more similar that you probably expected. Titles are now electronic, and in most cases when you buy a property today (or more accurately when you discharge the mortgage(s) over it and the mortgage holder returns the title to you) you will not get the original ‘handwritten’ title document, but a certified extract printed from a computer database.