Main Menu

British journalist declares Obama rumors baseless

In a new American edition of a book chronicling President Obama’s African roots, British journalist Peter Firstbrook writes that the rumors that President Obama was born in Kenya are baseless. In an interview with TheHill.com, Firstbrook said:

And it’s important to write these things, because there is a lot of misinformation about … the president, about his place of birth, about his religious inclinations. … Because I know that the polls suggest that something like 25 percent of the electorate think that he’s a Muslim, and he’s clearly not. There is a minority of people who think that he was born in Kenya, or possibly even Indonesia, and he wasn’t. And I felt that the work that I was doing for the book as a whole did give me an opportunity to address some of those issues.

The book is: The Obama’s: The Untold Story of an African Family. My copy is on order.

Update:

I received my copy of the book. The so-called debunking is crap. It’s a few bits from early news reports or half-informed web sites. It has nothing from the author’s several trips to Kenya, and is totally and completely lacking in evidence. Some of the information is out of date and other claims are unsupported. The two pages of text on this topic are found between page 208 and  210 (it’s not easy to find).

,

195 Responses to British journalist declares Obama rumors baseless

  1. avatar
    US Citizen February 13, 2011 at 8:34 pm #

    Below is a quote from a review on Amazon.
    It explains all there is to know regarding the disconnect between birthers and Obama…

    “The Luo, Obama’s tribe in Kenya, place a great deal of emphasis on education. It was this dedication to education that led Obama’s father to a university in Hawaii where he met and married the President’s mother and it was education that ultimately led Obama to the White House.”

  2. avatar
    john February 13, 2011 at 11:05 pm #

    [This is the banned James]

    I am more interested in Dr. Jerome Corsi’s book “Where’s the Birth Certificate?” due to come out in May. It is based on over 2 years of research by Dr. Jerome Corsi in effort to determine if Obama was really Born in Hawaii. All information to date according to Dr. Corsi is inconclusive on whether Obama was born in Hawaii. At best, Obama’s was registered as being born in Hawaii but not a shred of evidence has ever surfaced that actually proves Obama was in fact born in Hawaii.

  3. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 13, 2011 at 11:26 pm #

    john: Obama’s was registered as being born in Hawaii but not a shred of evidence has ever surfaced that actually proves Obama was in fact born in Hawaii.

    Uhhh, the fact that he was registered as born in Hawaii is evidence that he was in fact born in Hawaii, just as such things are the principle evidence for everyone else in the country. It is prima facie evidence in a court of law.

    Corsi is a political hack and a smear artist. I might look at his book if I found a copy laying next to a dumpster, but I certainly wouldn’t spend any money on it.

    By the way, this is the same Corsi who visited Kenya and has quotes in his book, The Obama Nation (pp 24-25), from Obama’s uncle Sayid saying Barack Obama’s first time in Africa was in 1986 as an adult.

  4. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP February 13, 2011 at 11:38 pm #

    john:
    [This is the banned James]

    At best, Obama’s was registered as being born in Hawaii but not a shred of evidence has ever surfaced that actually proves Obama was in fact born in Hawaii.

    That’s called hiding something in plain sight; a trick that he dumb, delusional, and/or gullible birther klan usually falls for hook, line, and sinker. It’s not going to work here.

  5. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP February 13, 2011 at 11:41 pm #

    My birth was registered in New Jersey, but there’s not a “shred of evidence” I was born there either.

  6. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP February 13, 2011 at 11:47 pm #

    In fact, I have no independent recollection of being born in New Jersey. If someone hadn’t told me I was born in a hospital there, I never would have known.

  7. avatar
    katahdin February 13, 2011 at 11:50 pm #

    john: [This is the banned James]I am more interested in Dr. Jerome Corsi’s book “Where’s the Birth Certificate?” due to come out in May. It is based on over 2 years of research by Dr. Jerome Corsi in effort to determine if Obama was really Born in Hawaii. All information to date according to Dr. Corsi is inconclusive on whether Obama was born in Hawaii. At best, Obama’s was registered as being born in Hawaii but not a shred of evidence has ever surfaced that actually proves Obama was in fact born in Hawaii.

    Why do you give Jerome Corsi the title of Doctor? Of what he a doctor?
    Lies, perhaps.

  8. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett February 14, 2011 at 12:07 am #

    He’s a doctor of FUNK.

    As for this so-called “journalist,” notice that he is BRITISH.

    And guess what nationality Obama still holds, by way of his Kenyan father, that makes him ineligible to be President????????

    That’s right! BRITISH!

    So it’s a plot! A conspiracy! Acquiescence in the UK! HAHAHAHAHAH!

    /birther dumB

  9. avatar
    CC February 14, 2011 at 12:41 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: By the way, this is the same Corsi who visited Kenya and has quotes in his book, The Obama Nation (pp 24-25), from Obama’s uncle Sayid saying Barack Obama’s first time in Africa was in 1986 as an adult.

    Also worth noting is that while that same book regurgitates nearly every anti-Obama smear and rumro imaginable, it doesn’t even HINT at any dispute over Obama’s birthplace or Constitutional eligibility. Not a single word.

    Why? Because Corsi finished writing the book a week or two before the birthplace conspiracy theories started getting popular online. He didn’t mention any doubts because, prior to Obama clinching the election in June 2008, there were never any doubts. Corsi and WND only jumped onboard the birther bandwagon months later when they saw profit to be had in it.

  10. avatar
    Keith February 14, 2011 at 1:42 am #

    J. Edward Tremlett: And guess what nationality Obama still holds, by way of his Kenyan father, that makes him ineligible to be President????????

    That’s right! BRITISH!

    Wrong again JET.

    He had provisional citizenship with Kenya had he chosen to take it up when he was 18yo. Since he didn’t it lapsed when he hit 19 and 6 months.

    (The exact numbers may be wrong here, I can be corrected on them. But the thrust of the assertion is correct)

  11. avatar
    Sean February 14, 2011 at 6:04 am #

    john:
    [This is the banned James]

    I am more interested in Dr. Jerome Corsi’s book “Where’s the Birth Certificate?” due to come out in May.It is based on over 2 years of research by Dr. Jerome Corsi in effort to determine if Obama was really Born in Hawaii.All information to date according to Dr. Corsi is inconclusive on whether Obama was born in Hawaii.At best, Obama’s was registered as being born in Hawaii but not a shred of evidence has ever surfaced that actually proves Obama was in fact born in Hawaii.

    I’m sure it’ll be just as accurate as is last masterpiece “Obama nation.”

  12. avatar
    Lupin February 14, 2011 at 6:25 am #

    Jerome Corsi is a nut who believes in all kinds of crazy world government black helicopters transamerican motorway nonsense, and why would anyone pay attention to him is quite beyond me.

  13. avatar
    dch February 14, 2011 at 9:09 am #

    John say:
    “At best, Obama’s was registered as being born in Hawaii but not a shred of evidence has ever surfaced that actually proves Obama was in fact born in Hawaii.”

    OK take that to court and see how well you do when the COLB appears and gets accepted. Please identify a court in thje USA that does not accept the Hawaii COLB. Be specific and provide the name of the court and the case.

    What POSTIVE evidence do you have to support birth outside of Hawaii? Why can’t a single birther answer that question?

    Why have ALL birther cases (90+) failed in the gate and why have all of the dismissals been upheld (35+)? Why have the SCOTUS attepts been ignored and denied within batches of 300 other cases (means they were NEVER discussed – just canned.)

    LOL

  14. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 14, 2011 at 10:14 am #

    john: Here is the Amzon link to Dr. Corsi’s new book. I can’t wait. I will defnitely purchase it when it comes out. Dr. Corsi is the foremost expert on the birther issue.http://www.amazon.com/Wheres-Birth-Certificate-Eligible-President/dp/1936488299/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297006028&sr=1-1

    Why don’t you buy a copies he obviously will need the help selling them.

  15. avatar
    richCares February 14, 2011 at 11:08 am #

    correction:
    Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
    Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
    Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
    Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
    Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
    Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
    HHa Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
    Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

  16. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 14, 2011 at 11:38 am #

    john: Dr. Corsi will be working hard to promote his books to make people aware of the facts.

    You mean he’s actually going to start telling the truth instead of the lies he puts in his books?

  17. avatar
    Lupin February 14, 2011 at 11:44 am #

    john: Dr. Corsi is the foremost expert on the birther issue.

    Isn’t that like being the boy who can eat the most cockroaches in kindergarten?

  18. avatar
    ellid February 14, 2011 at 11:45 am #

    James/John/whatever you’re calling yourself this week –

    Sorry, but Corsi’s little smear machine has been debunked repeatedly. FAIL.

  19. avatar
    Black Lion February 14, 2011 at 12:17 pm #

    john: Dr. Corsi will be working hard to promote his books to make people aware of the facts.

    John, do you mean like Corsi’s buddy Aaron Klein, also a WND “author” who wrote a book which said the following?

    WND Reporter Aaron Klein wrote in his book the following….

    “Aside from the “natural born” debate, there is the question of whether Barack Obama has ever provided documentation that proves he was born in the United States. Understandably, given the unusual and complex story of his origin, there is ample speculation that he may have been born in Kenya. However, as of this writing, the authors find no convincing evidence that Obama was born in Kenya, nor that his birthplace was any place other than Hawaii, his declared state of birth. (Page 70)”

    During that conversation, however, Sarah Obama immediately clarifies that her illustrious grandson was born in Hawaii, not Kenya, and she was not present for Obama’s birth. So the entire ensuing controversy involves a brief few seconds of the conversation in which President Obama’s proud grandmother appears to have said she was present in Kenya for Barack’s birth. Critics point out many reasons to be skeptical of the claim, including the possibility that something was lost in the translation between an American minister who presupposed Obama was born in Kenya and an elderly African woman who reportedly knows no English. Amid cross-talk in a combination of English, Swahili, and the local Luo tribal dialect, could she have understood McRae simply to be asking where she was when Barack Obama Jr. was born? [Page 71]

    http://mediamatters.org/research/201005280001

  20. avatar
    Black Lion February 14, 2011 at 12:19 pm #

    john: Here is the Amzon link to Dr. Corsi’s new book. I can’t wait. I will defnitely purchase it when it comes out. Dr. Corsi is the foremost expert on the birther issue.http://www.amazon.com/Wheres-Birth-Certificate-Eligible-President/dp/1936488299/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297006028&sr=1-1

    You mean a foremost expert in garbarge….Corsi has already been debunked as a smear artist and fool….

    http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/blog/index.blog?start=1248181014

    Corsi Couldn’t Find Doctor Linked to Obama Birth — But We Did
    Topic: WorldNetDaily

    A July 12 WorldNetDaily article by Jerome Corsi asserts: “Despite an in-depth search, the name of any physician or medical attendant who might have helped deliver the baby Barack Obama at Honolulu’s Kapi’olani Hospital in 1961 remains shrouded in mystery.”
    There is no way Corsi could have done any kind of “in-depth search.” How do we know? Because we found it at Snopes.
    Snopes cites a Buffalo News article about a woman who was a former teacher at the Hawaii school that Obama attended:

    When Barack Hussein Obama places his hand on the Bible today to take the oath of office as 44th president of the United States, Barbara Nelson of Kenmore will undoubtedly think back to the day he was born. It was Aug. 4, 1961, at Kapi’olani Medical Center for Women & Children in Honolulu.

    “I may be the only person left who specifically remembers his birth. His parents are gone, his grandmother is gone, the obstetrician who delivered him is gone,” said Nelson, referring to Dr. Rodney T. West, who died in February at the age of 98. Here’s the story: Nelson was having dinner at the Outrigger Canoe Club on Waikiki Beach with Dr. West, the father of her college friend, Jo-Anne. Making conversation, Nelson turned to Dr. West and said: “So, tell me something interesting that happened this week,’” she recalls.

    His response: “Well, today, Stanley had a baby. Now that’s something to write home about.”

    The new mother was Stanley (later referred to by her middle name of Ann) Dunham, and the baby was Barack Hussein Obama.

    “I penned the name on a napkin, and I did write home about it,” said Nelson, knowing that her father, Stanley A. Czurles, director of the Art Education Department at Buffalo State College, would be interested in the “Stanley” connection.

    She also remembers Dr. West mentioning that the baby’s father was the first black student at the University of Hawaii and how taken he was by the baby’s name.

    “I remember Dr. West saying Barack Hussein Obama, now that’s a musical name,’” said Nelson, who grew up in Kenmore and went to Hawaii in 1959 to be in Jo-Anne’s wedding party.

    Curiously, Corsi makes no mention whatsoever of Dr. West or Barbara Nelson’s story, which tells us that any “search” Corsi did was obviously not “in-depth.”
    Corsi didn’t even have to do that much of a search for this story — in January, WND’s Bob Unruh wrote about Barbara Nelson. But then, Unruh’s goal was to discredit her.
    Unruh claimed to have spoken with Nelson, who said she never claimed that West delivered Obama: “Being one of the leaders in obstetrics in Hawaii, he could have had physical or informational access to all of the obstetrics [on the islands].”
    But the online version of the Buffalo News article does not indicate any correction has made to it, nor does the version of the article in the Nexis database. If Nelson was as concerned as Unruh portrays her about the newspaper’s purportedly misleading portrayal, surely she would have sought a correction or clarification from the paper. But there’s no indication that she did.

    Corsi already has a long history of derelict journalism when it comes to Obama, and his failure to even mention Rodney West or Barbara Nelson is just another example of how Corsi will ignore facts to pursue his anti-Obama agenda.

  21. avatar
    john February 14, 2011 at 12:29 pm #

    The buffalo woman is just story and really not credible. There also someone in the military who claimed that he meet Obama in Hawaii and Obama told him he was born in Kenya. Just stories…Obama show your long-form BC..but he can’t because he wasn’t born in Hawaii.

  22. avatar
    Black Lion February 14, 2011 at 12:34 pm #

    john: The buffalo woman is just story and really not credible. There also someone in the military who claimed that he meet Obama in Hawaii and Obama told him he was born in Kenya. Just stories…Obama show your long-form BC..but he can’t because he wasn’t born in Hawaii.

    Really? But the crap that Corsi peddles is credible? Your hypocrisy is astounding. john, if you can show us one long form BC from HI that was issued since 2007, then you might have a point. Why hasn’t anyone been able to produce this document? Tell me? You and your ilk claim that this is available, yet you can’t show us even one so called long form that was issued since 2007. I wonder why? Nor can you show us even one person that has received a COLB from the state of HI since it was a state that has been shown to not have been born in HI. Yet you claim to know for sure that the President was not born in HI. You guys make me laugh. Barbara Nelson is more credible than any of you guys.

  23. avatar
    gorefan February 14, 2011 at 12:42 pm #

    john: There also someone in the military who claimed that he meet Obama in Hawaii and Obama told him he was born in Kenya.

    The Race Banyon story is not credible. A marine on leave in Honolulu in 1980, just happens to meet a young man, who tells him he was born in Kenya. And Race says he can not swear that it was President Obama. Only you would buy into his BS. LOL

  24. avatar
    JoZeppy February 14, 2011 at 2:04 pm #

    john: The buffalo woman is just story and really not credible. There also someone in the military who claimed that he meet Obama in Hawaii and Obama told him he was born in Kenya. Just stories…Obama show your long-form BC..but he can’t because he wasn’t born in Hawaii.

    So an anonomous post, on a right wing website, is equal in crediblity as a story published in an actual paper, with real names attached to it?

    So let’s add this to the list of birther logic:

    A document produced by a convicted forger is more trustworthy than a document produced by the State of Hawaii.

    A statement by the Kenyan minister of lands, who does not say what he bases is opinion on, is more trustworthy than the statements of officials of the state of Hawaii, who are responsible for maintaining vital records, and make it clear, they are relying on those records.

    A hearsay statement of temp election worker, with no access to vitial records is to believed above the statements of those whose job is to maintain vitial records.

    Only the heavily edited statements of the President’s materal step grandmother are to be trusted…the entire, unedited transcript is not trustworty.

    A single newspaper story, that alters the original AP text, stating Kenyan birth, is to be trusted over the thousands of other news stories saying Hawaiian birth.

    We are to believe the version of the COLB is altered because an anonomous “techdude” says so over the internet, over the statements of someone who has testified in court on the subject, who completely debunks the “techdude”‘s analysis.

    And to throw in Vattel….we are to trust the legal analysis of a mail order attorney, a DWI attorney, a professional poker player, and an unemployed paralegal over ever genuine Constitutional scholar in the US.

    Gee…..I wonder why no one takes birthers seriously?

  25. avatar
    Rickey February 14, 2011 at 2:09 pm #

    Jerome Corsi is a con artist who ripped off $1.2 million from investors in Minnesota in 1995. Several of the investors won lawsuits against him, but they were unable to execute the judgments because Corsi has transferred all of his assets into his wife’s name. A really swell guy.

    http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/article/2008/08/21/smear-mongering-author-jerome-corsi-ripped-minnesota-investors.html

    Just the sort of person that “James/John” finds to be admirable.

  26. avatar
    Black Lion February 14, 2011 at 2:29 pm #

    JoZeppy: So an anonomous post, on a right wing website, is equal in crediblity as a story published in an actual paper, with real names attached to it? So let’s add this to the list of birther logic:A document produced by a convicted forger is more trustworthy than a document produced by the State of Hawaii.A statement by the Kenyan minister of lands, who does not say what he bases is opinion on, is more trustworthy than the statements of officials of the state of Hawaii, who are responsible for maintaining vital records, and make it clear, they are relying on those records.A hearsay statement of temp election worker, with no access to vitial records is to believed above the statements of those whose job is to maintain vitial records.Only the heavily edited statements of the President’s materal step grandmother are to be trusted…the entire, unedited transcript is not trustworty.A single newspaper story, that alters the original AP text, stating Kenyan birth, is to be trusted over the thousands of other news stories saying Hawaiian birth.We are to believe the version of the COLB is altered because an anonomous “techdude” says so over the internet, over the statements of someone who has testified in court on the subject, who completely debunks the “techdude”s analysis.And to throw in Vattel….we are to trust the legal analysis of a mail order attorney, a DWI attorney, a professional poker player, and an unemployed paralegal over ever genuine Constitutional scholar in the US.Gee…..I wonder why no one takes birthers seriously?

    JoZeppy, tremendous response. Amazing how little “evidence” the birthers really have. And John like the other birthers runs away and hides when asked a simple question regarding the mystical long form that no one from HI is able to get….And the birthers wonder why they are ridiculed all the time….

  27. avatar
    Black Lion February 14, 2011 at 3:31 pm #

    Orly Taitz, Walt Fitzpatrick and the Post and Email: Axis of anti-Americanism

    There’s a doozy of a post today at the malware-infested Web site of prominent anti-American “Dr.” Orly Taitz, “Esq.”

    In it, she brings together a cabal of America haters for their own little orgy of twisted logic and all-around batshittery: herself, disgraced former Navy Lt. Commander Walter Fitzpatrick, and professional harpy harpist and hobby seditionist, Sharon Rondeau of the Post and Email.

    Taitz presents a missive purportedly written by Fitzpatrick, in which he asserts that in Tennessee’s 10th Judicial District:

    Assistant District Attorney General Steve Morgan told us in a recorded conversation the Bill of Rights Tenth Amendment is no longer recognized as law. Morgan is a government attorney working for (10th Dist. District attorney) Steve Bebe in Tennessee’s 10th Judicial District. The recording is available on request.

    Ok, I’ll bite. Fitzpatrick, consider this a formal request for a copy of the recording. You can reach me through the Examiner.

    As for the context of this crap, which is really hard to discern, I think we have to go to a World Net Daily story Taitz links to in the article. The WND piece, purportedly written by “journalist” Robert Unruh, is headlined, “Government argues ‘liberty’ doesn’t mean ‘physical liberty.’ ”

    The really poorly written article seems to be about the case of one Jeremy Paul Hopkins of Bradley County, Tenn., who was incarcerated in 2006 after turning himself in when he found out there was an arrest warrant out for him.

    Hopkins, an attorney, is arguing that he should have been allowed to post bond and be released, but authorities detained him for more than 12 hours.

    He sued, and a lower court agreed with him. An appellate court panel, however, said that while he should have been released, the detention did not violate his due process rights. Hopkins has moved on to the state Supreme Court, and it is the opposition’s filing that has his tighty whiteys in knots:

    But when he submitted his request to the Supreme Court, the defendants, including the county, Sheriff Tim Gobble, Officer Marshall Hicks, and a number of unidentified officers, responded with the idea that liberty isn’t liberty.

    “Hopkins’ basic argument was and is that the concept of ‘liberty’ is the right to physical liberty enumerated in the Constitution,and therefore a fundamental right,” the county argues. “This position has been repeatedly rejected by the courts.”

    “While the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments mention the word liberty, ‘this does not mean that the ‘right to liberty’ is a free-floating fundamental substantive Due Proceses right,'” the county argues.

    “Justice Scalia’s holding that ‘the text of the Due Process Clause does not protect individuals against deprivations of liberty simpliciter. It protects them against deprivatations of liberty ‘without due process of law,'” the county said.

    Which sounds about right to me. My interpretation of this is that we all have the right to liberty, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t be jailed, as long as we also get our due process rights in the meantime.

    Apparently that view is not shared by the chronic America haters over at WND. Or Taitz, Fitzpatrick or Rondeau. No surprises there.

    Which brings us back to Fitzpatrick’s ramblings. I believe what he’s trying to do is shed a little more “light” on the goings-on in Bradley County, hence the recorded conversation with the astounding “admission.”

    Fitzpatrick also writes:

    It’s first reported in Tennessee’s 10th Judicial District the Jury system found in U.S. and Tennessee State Constitutions was thrown overboard decades ago and replaced with a rival government competing with both Constitutions (Treason). Attainder is Law in Tennessee’s 10th District. Takeover of the Jury system is reported to federal authorities, and to both federal Grand Juries in Knoxville, Tennessee since early January 2011.

    Problems discovered in Monroe County Tennessee and Tennessee’s 10th Judicial District are discovered and ubiquitous statewide.

    You got that? Yeah, me neither.

    Fitzpatrick, you will remember, is the fellow who tried to “arrest” a former Grand Jury foreman, after said foreman refused to issue an indictment against Pres. Obama. Fitzpatrick was sent to the hoosegow late last year, and now faces additional state charges.

    And of course, everything that’s happened to him has been as a result of a corrupt judicial system. Seems he’s found an ally in this Hopkins fellow. And they’re both aided and abetted by Taitz and Rondeau.

    What’s that old saying? The jails are full of innocent people?

    Keep the faith.

    http://www.examiner.com/birther-movement-in-national/orly-taitz-walt-fitzpatrick-and-the-post-and-email-axis-of-anti-americanism

  28. avatar
    ellid February 14, 2011 at 4:39 pm #

    The “soldier in Hawaii” article was an obvious, and obviously racist, hoax that claimed that race relations in Hawaii are terrible (they aren’t), that Barack Obama told a perfect stranger that he wanted to be President even though he was foreign born (he didn’t), and called the President a “mulatto” (old slavery pejorative for someone with one white and one African parent). It’s not even close to Barbara Nelson being interviewed by a credible newspaper and giving credible, easily checked details.

    FAIL.

  29. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 14, 2011 at 5:46 pm #

    john: The buffalo woman is just story and really not credible.

    Ah, slipped past my ban filter did you?

    At first I was skeptical about Barbara Nelson’s story, but everything I was able to verify checked out. For example, she said the conversation took place at the Outrigger Canoe Club, and I was able to verify that Dr. Rodney West was a member of that club.

  30. avatar
    Stanislaw February 14, 2011 at 6:20 pm #

    Lupin: Isn’t that like being the boy who can eat the most cockroaches in kindergarten?

    To me it’s like being the least retarded kid on the short bus.

  31. avatar
    Sean February 14, 2011 at 10:22 pm #

    ellid:
    James/John/whatever you’re calling yourself this week –

    Sorry, but Corsi’s little smear machine has been debunked repeatedly.FAIL.

    Corsi said in his last book that Obama didn’t dedicate his book to his family. And or course, all you need to do is open the first few pages of Obama’s book to see this is a lie.

    If he lies about easily debunked things like that, what is he NOT lying about?

  32. avatar
    nc1 February 15, 2011 at 3:15 am #

    JoZeppy: So an anonomous post, on a right wing website, is equal in crediblity as a story published in an actual paper, with real names attached to it?

    So let’s add this to the list of birther logic:

    A document produced by a convicted forger is more trustworthy than a document produced by the State of Hawaii.

    A statement by the Kenyan minister of lands, who does not say what he bases is opinion on, is more trustworthy than the statements of officials of the state of Hawaii, who are responsible for maintaining vital records, and make it clear, they are relying on those records.

    A hearsay statement of temp election worker, with no access to vitial records is to believed above the statements of those whose job is to maintain vitial records.

    Only the heavily edited statements of the President’s materal step grandmother are to be trusted…the entire, unedited transcript is not trustworty.

    A single newspaper story, that alters the original AP text, stating Kenyan birth, is to be trusted over the thousands of other news stories saying Hawaiian birth.

    We are to believe the version of the COLB is altered because an anonomous “techdude” says so over the internet, over the statements of someone who has testified in court on the subject, who completely debunks the “techdude”s analysis.

    And to throw in Vattel….we are to trust the legal analysis of a mail order attorney, a DWI attorney, a professional poker player, and an unemployed paralegal over ever genuine Constitutional scholar in the US.

    Gee…..I wonder why no one takes birthers seriously?

    You can argue about hearsay arguments back and forth. No need for speculation:

    1. State of Hawaii refuses to confirm that they issued COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007. That fact takes care of your claim that State of Hawaii issued document whose image is shown on FactCheck.

    2. State of Hawaii refuses to release birth registration index in case when request includes number 10641. The release of this information is not under Obama’s control. State of Hawaii can release it any time they want. So far they have refused to do it.

    I think they are hiding the truth. That registration number and Date Filed on one hand and the official birthplace story (Kapiolani Birth) on the other hand are incompatible. Either the COLB is forged or Obama is lying about Kapiolani birth. Both cannot be true.

    3. Gov. Abercrombie intention was to end the birthplace controversy because it started to hurt Obama’s chances for re-election. Yet he could only say that there is a “written down” something in the archive. It certainly is not a long form birth certificate he was hoping to find.

    4. Government still keeps passport records for Obama’s mother hidden from public. Since you assume that those records would not show that she returned from abroad with a newborn, what is the explanation for their refusal to publish these documents?

    It is highly unlikely that that they are working against Obama by refusing to publish information that would end the birthplace controversy.

  33. avatar
    Northland10 February 15, 2011 at 7:36 am #

    nc1: 1. State of Hawaii refuses to confirm that they issued COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007. That fact takes care of your claim that State of Hawaii issued document whose image is shown on FactCheck.

    I’m sorry but you are now lying intentionally. Only a a few weeks ago on “The Occasional Open Thread – Vacation Edition” others reminded you of the testimony of Dr. Fukino, on 23 February 2010 before the Hawaii Senate Committee on Judiciary and Government Operations:

    For more than a year, the Department of Health has continued to receive approximately 50 e-mail inquiries a month seeking access to President Barack Obama’s birth certificate in spite of the fact that President Obama has posted a copy of the certificate on his former campaign website.

    This, of course was the mentioned by the Doc http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/07/spinning-dr-fukino/

    It is your lack of honorable discussion here that keeps people from taking what remains of “thinking birthers” seriously. You are actually defiling your own cause.

  34. avatar
    The Magic M February 15, 2011 at 7:39 am #

    > It certainly is not a long form birth certificate he was hoping to find.

    You can repeat this a grillion times and it won’t become any more substantial. Abercrombie knew from the start that he cannot release any “original long form BC” because of Hawaii’s privacy laws. His “quest” was, from day one, to check if there are other records, not protected by privacy laws, that he could release to shut the birthers up.
    He never said “I will go looking for the birth certificate”, he never said “I cannot find the birth certificate”, not directly and not indirectly, not ex- nor implicitly.

    But as long as you birthers keep making up lies to mis-state somebody else’s case (and repeating them in the face of the facts again and again) just so you can claim that case had allegedly “failed”, it makes no sense to keep talking to you.

  35. avatar
    Keith February 15, 2011 at 8:24 am #

    Northland10: nc1: 1. State of Hawaii refuses to confirm that they issued COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007. That fact takes care of your claim that State of Hawaii issued document whose image is shown on FactCheck.

    I’m sorry but you are now lying intentionally. Only a a few weeks ago on “The Occasional Open Thread – Vacation Edition” others reminded you of the testimony of Dr. Fukino, on 23 February 2010 before the Hawaii Senate Committee on Judiciary and Government Operations:

    For more than a year, the Department of Health has continued to receive approximately 50 e-mail inquiries a month seeking access to President Barack Obama’s birth certificate in spite of the fact that President Obama has posted a copy of the certificate on his former campaign website.

    Just to be clear: the date that that document was issued [b]IS IRRELEVANT[/b].

    I understand that you are not satisfied that the sworn testimony that the Hawai’ian DoH issued the document that has been published doesn’t include the date that it issued that document.

    That date is unmitigated trivia. What is important is the birth information on the document relating to the eligibility of Obama to be President.

    The document contains all the information required by state and federal law to qualify as a birth certificate, including the certification itself. It is a valid legal birth certificate.

    The birth information on that document confirms that Obama is eligible. The birth information on that document has been confirmed correct, both directly and indirectly. Supplementary statements from the two authorized officers in charge of Hawai’ian vital records have confirmed the information on that document. The head of the Hawai’ian DoH has testified, under oath, that the document was issued by the Hawai’ian DoH.

    What possible difference would it make it the transaction took place on 4th June, 5th June, 6th June, or Juneteenth? The certification of the document that has been published took place on 6th June 2007. Yes it is within the realms of possibility that someone messed up and forgot to change the date on the signature stamp, so it really happened on the 7th, or they changed it wrong and its two days wrong.

    It just doesn’t matter one way or the other. The document is official as it stands, dated 6th June 2007. There is NO POSSIBLE SCENARIO that the date the certification was applied to that document changes any of the information on that document, or makes a difference to any act or procedure based on that document. There is no missed deadline that backdating might have tried to get around or anything of the sort.

    It is simply a normal, run of the mill, everyday, official birth certificate. The information it reports, and the certification that that information is correct makes it so. The date the certification was applied to the document is irrelevant. Period.

  36. avatar
    G February 15, 2011 at 9:29 am #

    The Magic M: > It certainly is not a long form birth certificate he was hoping to find.
    You can repeat this a grillion times and it won’t become any more substantial. Abercrombie knew from the start that he cannot release any “original long form BC” because of Hawaii’s privacy laws. His “quest” was, from day one, to check if there are other records, not protected by privacy laws, that he could release to shut the birthers up.
    He never said “I will go looking for the birth certificate”, he never said “I cannot find the birth certificate”, not directly and not indirectly, not ex- nor implicitly.
    But as long as you birthers keep making up lies to mis-state somebody else’s case (and repeating them in the face of the facts again and again) just so you can claim that case had allegedly “failed”, it makes no sense to keep talking to you.

    Completely agreed. There is absolutely nothing new in the 4 points that NC1 keeps saying over and over and over again like a broken record…as if magically by repeating them, they will somehow matter.

    All 4 points have been responded to and shot down endlessly. I can’t take NC1 seriously at all nor think she is being genuine by consistently bringing up the same meaningless points over and over and over again, where she has already been given answers. All that remains is either completely willful dishonesty / ignorance or an intentional agenda of misleading propoganda on her part.

  37. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett February 15, 2011 at 12:18 pm #

    Keith: Wrong again JET.

    He had provisional citizenship with Kenya had he chosen to take it up when he was 18yo. Since he didn’t it lapsed when he hit 19 and 6 months.

    (The exact numbers may be wrong here, I can be corrected on them. But the thrust of the assertion is correct)

    Well that’s what I get for channeling birthers – a lack of correctness.

  38. avatar
    nc1 February 16, 2011 at 2:22 am #

    G: Completely agreed.There is absolutely nothing new in the 4 points that NC1 keeps saying over and over and over again like a broken record…as if magically by repeating them, they will somehow matter.

    All 4 points have been responded to and shot down endlessly.I can’t take NC1 seriously at all nor think she is being genuine by consistently bringing up the same meaningless points over and over and over again, where she has already been given answers.All that remains is either completely willful dishonesty / ignorance or an intentional agenda of misleading propoganda on her part.

    Those 4 points are Achilles’ heel of Obama’s birthplace story. You can not answer them – it is easier to attack the messenger.

  39. avatar
    G February 16, 2011 at 2:36 am #

    nc1: Those 4 points are Achilles’ heel of Obama’s birthplace story. You can not answer them – it is easier to attack the messenger.

    Total BS. They have all been answered and refuted to you numerous times on here. Either learn to read or stop pretending. Every one of your points has been shot down or pointed out as completely meaningless endlessly. There is no point in continuing to give the same answers over and over again to someone like you who is dense as a doorknob and only pretending to not hear the answers you’ve been given. Give it up and give it a rest. Nobody here buys your nonsense. Not the 1st time you say silly things…not the 100th either.

  40. avatar
    Lupin February 16, 2011 at 2:37 am #

    nc1: Those 4 points are Achilles’ heel of Obama’s birthplace story. You can not answer them – it is easier to attack the messenger.

    Even I who couldn’t care less where Obama was born have seen your “points” refuted and debunked a gazillion times here. (I’m quite sick of it in fact.) Repeating the same drivel again and again and again just make you look like Rain Man.

    And you, OTOH, never ever responds to the points debunking your crazy theories. You’re a sorry waste of time.

  41. avatar
    nc1 February 16, 2011 at 2:55 am #

    Northland10: I’m sorry but you are now lying intentionally.Only a a few weeks ago on “The Occasional Open Thread – Vacation Edition” others reminded you of the testimony of Dr. Fukino, on 23 February 2010 before the Hawaii Senate Committee on Judiciary and Government Operations:

    This, of course was the mentioned by the Doc http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/07/spinning-dr-fukino/

    It is your lack of honorable discussion here that keeps people from taking what remains of “thinking birthers” seriously.You are actually defiling your own cause.

    State of Hawaii refuses to answer a direct question whether they issued a copy of birth certificate to Obama on June 6, 2007. Fukino never mentioned any dates in her statement. It is a similar statement to Okubo’s one from 2008. First she said that image posted on the web represents a genuine Hawaii COLB. When asked again she finally said that it was not possible to be quite certain what the image represented.

    If Fukino told the truth there would be no problem for Hawaii DoH to confirm the registration number.

    It is easy to hide behind general statements and assumptions – when it comes to verification of details the DoH refuses to cooperate with US citizens/voters asking questions under the UIPA law.

  42. avatar
    nc1 February 16, 2011 at 4:09 am #

    Lupin: Even I who couldn’t care less where Obama was born have seen your “points” refuted and debunked a gazillion times here. (I’m quite sick of it in fact.) Repeating the same drivel again and again and again just make you look like Rain Man.

    And you, OTOH, never ever responds to the points debunking your crazy theories. You’re a sorry waste of time.

    If answering four questions is difficult – I’ll make it easier for our smart European friend:
    Why does Hawaii DoH refuse to confirm that the registration number 10641 is part of Obama’s birth registration index data? Neither you nor any other Obama supporter has answered this question so far.

    According to UIPA law this infomation can be released to public – Obama does not have to give his consent.

  43. avatar
    misha February 16, 2011 at 4:19 am #

    nc1: If answering four questions is difficult – I’ll make it easier for our smart European friend:

    What’s that noise? Is it steam, or fingernails on a blackboard?

  44. avatar
    The Magic M February 16, 2011 at 6:11 am #

    > You can not answer them

    It’s a typical crank strategy to ask the same (already answered) questions over and over again until finally, when people get tired of answering the same stuff again and again, they can claim the ensuing silence means they “cannot be answered”.

    It’s like a child stubbornly saying “is too!” whenever a parent says “the moon is not made of cheese”. If the parent gives up at some point, it doesn’t mean the kid won and it definitely doesn’t mean the moon is made of cheese.

  45. avatar
    Lupin February 16, 2011 at 6:46 am #

    nc1: If answering four questions is difficult – I’ll make it easier for our smart European friend:
    Why does Hawaii DoH refuse to confirm that the registration number 10641 is part of Obama’s birth registration index data? Neither you nor any other Obama supporter has answered this question so far.

    By Grabthar’s Hammer, maybe you’re the plucky comedy relief around here, you ever think about that?

  46. avatar
    Northland10 February 16, 2011 at 6:50 am #

    nc1: If Fukino told the truth there would be no problem for Hawaii DoH to confirm the registration number.

    Since you are stating that Fukino is lying and Obama has a fraudulent birth certificate, the burden of proof is on you (we Americans have that funny way of things). Therefore, here is your challenge:

    Provide evidence he was born elsewhere.

    I should warn you, we will put your “evidence” up to the much same scrutiny that you want to give Hawaii (although, we tend to stop repeating the same statement that has been proven false). Therefore, if you try to use the “Lucas Smith BC” as evidence, we will expect you to be able to provide evidence from that hospital that they really did provide the BC (or even the Lucas Smith has proof he went to Kenya).

    The burden is now on you NC1, is your theory able to stand up to the light of real evidence?

  47. avatar
    Stanislaw February 16, 2011 at 8:04 am #

    The Magic M:
    > You can not answer them

    It’s a typical crank strategy to ask the same (already answered) questions over and over again until finally, when people get tired of answering the same stuff again and again, they can claim the ensuing silence means they “cannot be answered”.

    It’s like a child stubbornly saying “is too!” whenever a parent says “the moon is not made of cheese”. If the parent gives up at some point, it doesn’t mean the kid won and it definitely doesn’t mean the moon is made of cheese.

    The very definition of trolling. Continue to engage at your own risk.

  48. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 16, 2011 at 8:31 am #

    nc1: According to UIPA law this infomation [sic] can be released to public – Obama does not have to give his consent.

    Only that is not true. Birthers have a uniformly bad track record in interpreting laws as evidenced by their unbroken string of losses in court.

  49. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 16, 2011 at 8:36 am #

    nc1: Those 4 points are Achilles’ heel of Obama’s birthplace story. You can not answer them – it is easier to attack the messenger.

    The birthers have one Achilles heel: Barack Obama is eligible to be President of the United States.

  50. avatar
    Greg February 16, 2011 at 9:22 am #

    nc1: State of Hawaii can release it any time they want.

    Prove it. Get the State of Hawaii to release someone else’s information. Until then ,Occam’s Razor (actually, Occam’s Dull Soup Spoon) tells us that the State of Hawaii is right and you are wrong.

  51. avatar
    gorefan February 16, 2011 at 9:57 am #

    nc1: 1. State of Hawaii refuses to confirm that they issued COLB to Obama on June 6, 2007.
    2. State of Hawaii refuses to release birth registration index in case when request includes number 10641.
    3. Gov. Abercrombie intention was to end the birthplace controversy because it started to hurt Obama’s chances for re-election.
    4. Government still keeps passport records for Obama’s mother hidden from public.

    1 – Get them to confirm that they issued a BC to the Nordyke twins.
    2 – Get them to issue the index data for the Nordyke twins.
    3 – He never said he would release a long form BC.
    4 – If those records refer to a young son, Barack Obama, by name, they may not be able to release them under privacy laws.

  52. avatar
    Black Lion February 16, 2011 at 10:10 am #

    gorefan:

    That is what I find amazing about NC1 and all of the other birthers. They make these claims about the state of HI….
    That they are lying;
    They are covering for Obama because they won’t confirm the online COLB;
    They won’t confirm the index number;
    You can still get a copy of the long form;
    The COLB registration number is is fake;
    Anyone could get a COLB or BC stating that they were born in HI without supplying any proof to support these claims. They have never confirmed the Nordyke registration number. They never got the state of HI to confirm that the Nordyke BC is not fake. They have never had anyone born in HI provide a so called long form issued after 2007. Nothing. But we are to believe in this wild conspiracy theory with only their word that something is amiss….Truly amazing is the level of birther hypocrisy….

  53. avatar
    misha February 16, 2011 at 10:41 am #

    Black Lion: They have never confirmed the Nordyke registration number. They never got the state of HI to confirm that the Nordyke BC is not fake. They have never had anyone born in HI provide a so called long form issued after 2007.

    Glenn Beck has never denied raping and murdering a girl in 1990. Joseph Farah has never denied molesting barnyard animals.

    SHOW US YOUR RECORDS BECK!!!

  54. avatar
    nc1 February 16, 2011 at 11:12 am #

    gorefan:

    4 – If those records refer to a young son, Barack Obama, by name, they may not be able to release them under privacy laws.

    ====================================================================

    You just made my point, thank you.

    The official story claims that Obama was born in the Kapiolani hospital. There should be no record of him returning from abroad with his mother in 1961.

  55. avatar
    JoZeppy February 16, 2011 at 11:17 am #

    I find birthers like nc1 beyond tedious at this point. The state of Hawaii has confirmed to any reasonable level that the President was born in that state. The COLB has been photographed, with the seal and stamp visible. Right there, that is sufficient. There has been no evidence of fraud, forgery, or any manipulation. In a court of law, that would be the end of it right there. Hand that document over, and since you have no evidence to attack its credibility, that’s the end of the story. But we have more. We have the statements of the government officials of Hawaii. The custodians of the vital records of Hawaii (which would be admissible in a court of law), saying the have examined the records, and they indicate he was born in Hawaii. Then there are the newspaper announcements, which on their own would not be evidence of his birth, but they are admissable to the extent that an announcment was published, and is futher support once you add the testimony of how those lists were published.

    Then we have birthers like nc1, who says that just because they don’t use his particular magic words, or specifically give the exact information he wants, the exact way he wants it, that somehow, all that other, real, admissable evidence, goes away. Mind you, he has not a shred of evidence to back up the President’s birth anywhere but Hawaii, and add to the fact that the logicistics of him being born overseas are just beyond stupid, but hey, we’re supposed to take birthers serious, because they say so.

    You don’t get to dictate the standards. You’re just not that important. Get over yourself, and get on with your sad, pathetic existence.

  56. avatar
    nc1 February 16, 2011 at 11:22 am #

    Greg: Prove it. Get the State of Hawaii to release someone else’s information. Until then ,Occam’s Razor (actually, Occam’s Dull Soup Spoon) tells us that the State of Hawaii is right and you are wrong.

    ===================================================================

    Read the UIPA law – it allows the release of birth index data. It specifically mentions name, sex and other data that the Director of DoH authorizes,

    It is up to DoH to allow registration number to be included in the respons about birth registration uindex.

    This is what Hawaii lawyers said (in 1990) about the release of index data:
    http://hawaii.gov/oip/opinionletters/opinion%2090-23.pdf

    “Index data consisting of name, age, and sex of the registrant and date, type, and file number of the vital event and such other data as the director may authorize may be made available to the public.”

    Abercrombie can release full birth registration index data for Obama without asking for permission.

  57. avatar
    nc1 February 16, 2011 at 11:25 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Only that is not true. Birthers have a uniformly bad track record in interpreting laws as evidenced by their unbroken string of losses in court.

    ===================================================================

    Read the UIPA law – it allows the Director of DoH to release the full birth registration index data. You know it and still choose to argue otherwise.

  58. avatar
    nc1 February 16, 2011 at 11:31 am #

    Northland10: Since you are stating that Fukino is lying and Obama has a fraudulent birth certificate, the burden of proof is on you (we Americans have that funny way of things).Therefore, here is your challenge:

    Provide evidence he was born elsewhere.

    I should warn you, we will put your “evidence” up to the much same scrutiny that you want to give Hawaii (although, we tend to stop repeating the same statement that has been proven false).Therefore, if you try to use the “Lucas Smith BC” as evidence, we will expect you to be able to provide evidence from that hospital that they really did provide the BC (or even the Lucas Smith has proof he went to Kenya).

    The burden is now on you NC1, is your theory able to stand up to the light of real evidence?

    Once a state passes a “birther law” there will be no hiding behind Fukino’s words.

    An actual document will have to be submitted. Then we will see whether the COLB presented to us by FactCheck is a real deal or a forgery.

  59. avatar
    Daniel February 16, 2011 at 11:39 am #

    nc1, like most birthers, and indeed most conspiracy nutbags, is what he is to help assuage his intense feelings of inadequacy.

    By being a vocal part of a fringe minority, he gains the illusion of being important. If he chose to accept reality he would just become one insignificant, invisible person in a sea of reasonable people.

    We really should pity him.

  60. avatar
    Lupin February 16, 2011 at 11:44 am #

    nc1 reminds me of the character who gets eaten up or killed by the monster in the first act of any sci-fi/horror movie because he (or she) clearly deserves it, due to stupidity, intolerance, sheer nastiness, etc.

    I find it hard to pity someone so obviously blinded by bigotry, to the point of asperger.

  61. avatar
    Daniel February 16, 2011 at 11:45 am #

    nc1: Once a state passes a “birther law” there will be no hiding behind Fukino’s words.

    The only way any of those “birther laws” will survive constitutional muster is if it allows the HI COLB to be accepted as documentation.

    Since the paper COLB was already released by Obama, and indeed available at his campaign HQ for anyone to examine, there will be no substantive change.

    Any “birther law” that demands more than the COLB will fail, as it contravenes the US constitution on several levels.

    If you failed to exercise your due diligence in going to examine his COLB when it was available to you, you can’t really blame Obama.

  62. avatar
    gorefan February 16, 2011 at 11:50 am #

    nc1: You just made my point, thank you.
    The official story claims that Obama was born in the Kapiolani hospital. There should be no record of him returning from abroad with his mother in 1961.

    No, you are assuming something for which there is no evidence. If the 1965 Dunham passport had her son listed as part of her passport. They could not release it. At this point, it is not known if the 1965 passport was her first passport or a renewal. But the fact that they did not give Strunk pre-August, 1961 passport information suggests either the applications were routinely destroyed (as outlined in the State Dept. memo) or she didn’t have a passport before the President’s birth.

    What you seem to be suggesting is that she went to Africa before the birth without a passport.

  63. avatar
    JoZeppy February 16, 2011 at 11:55 am #

    nc1: ===================================================================Read the UIPA law – it allows the release of birth index data. It specifically mentions name, sex and other data that the Director of DoH authorizes,It is up to DoH to allow registration number to be included in the respons about birth registration uindex.This is what Hawaii lawyers said (in 1990) about the release of index data:http://hawaii.gov/oip/opinionletters/opinion%2090-23.pdf“Index data consisting of name, age, and sex of the registrant and date, type, and file number of the vital event and such other data as the director may authorize may be made available to the public.”Abercrombie can release full birth registration index data for Obama without asking for permission.

    And perhaps you should read a bit more closely. It says they “may” release the following index data and any other such information as the “director MAY authorize.” That does not mean that the State of Hawaii currently releases all of the listed information, nor does it mean the state is required to, nor does it mean that they even include that information on publicly available indicies, and it certainly doesn’t mean the governor can confirm the file number, if that is not the current policy of the state. So now please show us that the director has authorized the release of file number by showing us they will do so in other instances, and get back to us.

  64. avatar
    gorefan February 16, 2011 at 11:59 am #

    Lupin: nc1 reminds me of the character who gets eaten up or killed by the monster in the first act

    That just reminded me of this scene in “Galaxy Quest”,

    “Guy Fleegman: [whimpering] I changed my mind, I wanna go back.

    Sir Alexander Dane: After all the fuss you made about getting left behind?

    Guy Fleegman: Yeah, but that’s when I thought I was the crewman that stays on the ship and something is up there and it kills me. But now I’m thinking I’m the guy that gets killed by some monster 5 minutes after we land on the planet.

    Jason Nesmith: You’re not going to die on the planet, Guy.

    Guy Fleegman: I’m not? Then what’s my last name?

    Jason Nesmith: It’s, uh, uh– I don’t know.

    Guy Fleegman: Nobody knows. You know why? Because my character isn’t important enough for a last name, because I’m gonna die 5 minutes in.

    Gwen DeMarco: Guy, you have a last name.

    Guy Fleegman: Do I? Do I? For all you know, I’m “Crewman #6″! [puts his head on Gwen’s shoulder and cries] Mommy! Mommy!

    Sir Alexander Dane: [wearily] Are we there yet?”

  65. avatar
    JoZeppy February 16, 2011 at 12:06 pm #

    nc1: Once a state passes a “birther law” there will be no hiding behind Fukino’s words.
    An actual document will have to be submitted. Then we will see whether the COLB presented to us by FactCheck is a real deal or a forgery.

    What a genuinely stupid thing to say. We’re “hiding” behind the official document that you have provided not a single reason to doubt? We’re “hiding” behind the official statements of the custodian of records for Hawaii. I guess we have the luxery of “hiding” behind all the facts, and you’re stuck standing naked on your own, since you have nothing to “hide” behind and all you have are your delusions.

  66. avatar
    sfjeff February 16, 2011 at 12:19 pm #

    I admit to being somewhat confused by what NC1 is asking- no big surprise to anyone I am sure.

    But hasn’t Hawaii already released the Birth index data?

    Index Data
    Haw. Rev. Stat. §338-18(d) states, “Index data consisting of name and sex of the registrant, type of vital event, and such other data as the director may authorize shall be made available to the public.” Refer to link above for HRS §338-18.

    Index data consisting of name and sex of the registrant, and type of event is made available to the public. The director, in accordance with HRS §338-18(d), has not authorized any other data to be made available to the public.

    Index data referred to in HRS §338-18 from vital records in the State of Hawaii is available for inspection at the Department of Health’s Office of Health Status Monitoring at 1250 Punchbowl Street in Honolulu. The public will be asked to provide identification and sign in to inspect the names and sex of all births, deaths and marriages that occurred in the state. Data are maintained in bound copies by type of event with names listed alphabetically by last name.

    The index data regarding President Obama is:

    Birth Index
    Obama II, Barack Hussein
    Male

    To request a search for index data, provide a first and last name of the individual, and the type of event along with a self-addressed, stamped envelope. Requests must be sent in writing to:

    State Department of Health
    Office of Health Status Monitoring
    Issuance/Vital Statistics Section
    P.O. Box 3378
    Honolulu, HI 96801

    There may be a cost for search, segregation and copying based on the request. If prepayment is required, the DOH will send a Notice to Requestor form with the amount required for prepayment. Only a money order, certified check, or cashier’s check (make money order and checks payable to the State Department of Health) will be accepted. Personal checks will not be accepted. All fees are non-refundable; if no data is found after a search is conducted, the fees are retained to cover the cost of the search. Requests for index data will be sent out within 2-3 weeks after receipt of payment.

    What the heck is NC1 asking for then?

  67. avatar
    gorefan February 16, 2011 at 12:27 pm #

    sfjeff: I admit to being somewhat confused by what NC1 is asking- no big surprise to anyone I am sure.

    You need to be able to torture logic to understand it. But I think it goes like this. Back in the 70′;s and 80’s the index data from DOH consisted of name, date, vital event and index number. At some point that was changed to just name, date, and vital event. Birthers argue that index numbers were public information before the change in the regulations. Therefore any index number before the regs were changed is still public information.

  68. avatar
    Wile E. February 16, 2011 at 12:30 pm #

    Black Lion: They have never had anyone born in HI provide a so called long form issued after 2007.

    Do you say “issued after 2007” because that is when Obama received his so called short form?

    Could we, instead, insert “issued since 2001″…..and still have an accurate sentence?

  69. avatar
    Black Lion February 16, 2011 at 1:08 pm #

    Wile E.: Do you say “issued after 2007‘ because that is when Obama received his so called short form?Could we, instead, insert “issued since 2001‘…..and still have an accurate sentence?

    I am not sure…But the point is that the COLB issued in 2007 is considered to be a forgery by the birthers, while most normal intelligent people realize that is the only document issued as official proof of birth by the state of HI. 2007 to me seems to be more accurate. However I am still waiting for the birthers to show us any offical long form issued by HI since the state has claimed they no longer issue them….

  70. avatar
    Sef February 16, 2011 at 1:14 pm #

    sfjeff: What the heck is NC1 asking for then?

    (S)he’s complaining that the provided index data does not contain the registration number. I agree that it would be useful to see how frequent the birth date & reg # are out of order, but we have no data to suggest there is anything extraordinary here. In fact, many possible scenarios have been proposed to explain the misalignment of Obama & Nordyke.

  71. avatar
    G February 16, 2011 at 1:43 pm #

    Sef: (S)he’s complaining that the provided index data does not contain the registration number. I agree that it would be useful to see how frequent the birth date & reg # are out of order, but we have no data to suggest there is anything extraordinary here. In fact, many possible scenarios have been proposed to explain the misalignment of Obama & Nordyke.

    In other words, NC1 wastes her time ranting about nitpick issues of absolutely no consequence or relevance to the overall NBC issue at all.

    Nothing in her broken record screeds addresses the ONLY relevant issue to NBC, which the COLB fully answered – where he was born (Honolulu, HI) and when. Birthers like her, Miss Tickly & BZ waste their time endlessly trying to over twist and parse the most inconsequential minutea in desperate need to hold onto their fantasy that somehow he didn’t “really” get elected.

    I truly suspect that they all suffer from some extreme OCD in their cognitive dissonance that has them endlessly stuck in these meaningless repetive arguments of irrelevency.

    Quite pathetic.

  72. avatar
    Wile E. February 16, 2011 at 2:06 pm #

    Black Lion: I am not sure…But the point is that the COLB issued in 2007 is considered to be a forgery by the birthers, while most normal intelligent people realize that is the only document issued as official proof of birth by the state of HI.2007 to me seems to be more accurate.However I am still waiting for the birthers to show us any offical long form issued by HI since the state has claimed they no longer issue them….

    Thanks. I understand. But, my own personal birther troll that I am dealing with at the moment is not of the “COLB is a forgery” variety but rather the “COLB not sufficient evidence” variety.

    When he says things like this:

    “”””Where the problem starts is with the fact that at the time Obama was born, under Hawaiian law, it was legal and normal for a foreign national to be issued with a COLB from Hawaii, simply by virtue of their parents living in the state for a year, or being residents of the state, and additionally, it was not necessary for the actual parents to register a child in person themselves, any relative could do so. This document, also a “short form”, is also a statement that an original document is on file. Of course that original document on file would reflect that the birth took place elsewhere. With me so far?

    This is why, alone of all the states in the union, it is common for a Hawaii state government COLB (short form) to NOT be accepted as proof of nationality/right to work by many businesses and government offices there – as the COLB’s for many of the working age adults may or may not be for an original birth certificate from another country altogether, and the person issued the COLB may not have the legal right to live and/or work in the USA. I gave you the large cruise ship company Norwegian Cruise Lines America as an example. Another example is the Hawaii Department of Health and Human Services. DSSH does not accept a short form for employment eligibility verification. They only accept the long form, or “original” as they call it, due tot he reasons given above.”””””

    or this:

    “”””One more thing – regarding foreign nationals being issued with Hawaiian COLBs – after 1980 this procedure was changed. Now they are issued with COFBs – certificate of foreign birth, rather than COLBs, and the reason for this change was exactly the scenario I have been describing: when you can’t trust a state short form certificate to cover your butt and prove you are hiring a legal employee, you gotta try to fix the system somehow.””””

    What the heck is he going on about? I suspect he is just confused, but what, if anything is based on reality?

    If anyone would care to play along….here is the thread in question:
    http://www.topix.com/forum/city/trinity-tx/TQ8IPQH52C9MHO5K9

  73. avatar
    Scientist February 16, 2011 at 2:16 pm #

    WileE: There are provisions for COLBs to be issued for births by Hawaiian residents outside of Hawaii. Such documents list the ACTUAL place the birth occured. Since the President’s says “Place of Birth: Honolulu”, then that is where he was born. Period.

    As for what employers accept, i can’t speak for all of them, but since Hawaii issues only COLBs for the last 10 years, then obviously no one born in Hawaii can have a job. The Passport Office certainly does accept Hawaiian COLBs.

  74. avatar
    G February 16, 2011 at 2:53 pm #

    Scientist: WileE: There are provisions for COLBs to be issued for births by Hawaiian residents outside of Hawaii. Such documents list the ACTUAL place the birth occured. Since the President’s says “Place of Birth: Honolulu”, then that is where he was born. Period. As for what employers accept, i can’t speak for all of them, but since Hawaii issues only COLBs for the last 10 years, then obviously no one born in Hawaii can have a job. The Passport Office certainly does accept Hawaiian COLBs.

    Wile E – Scientist’s post has pretty much covered it in a nutshell.

    It sounds like most of what your birther is stating is pure bunk drivel.

    Simply point out what Scientist has already said and then challenge them to provide any links or evidence to official HI DOH sites that support his claims (they do not) or that prove his likely made up accounts of businesses, etc. demanding “long forms”.

    Call your birther out on it. It sounds like he’s just making up stuff as he goes along. The burden of PROOF is on him to support his crazy claims.

  75. avatar
    Bovril February 16, 2011 at 3:16 pm #

    Just did a drive by Wile E and reminded the muppet that the bottom of the COLB (link provided for him) says its inherently GTG for all legal purposes…….I mean for gods sake Certificate/Certification……

    They could label the document a chocolate frog and it would STILL be legal proof.

    What’s he going to do next, say one of the copied images posted on line had the serial number redacted so that invalidates the original……?

  76. avatar
    Daniel February 16, 2011 at 4:02 pm #

    john: I am more interested in Dr. Jerome Corsi’s book “Where’s the Birth Certificate?” due to come out in May. It is based on…

    …Corsi’s uncanny ability to milk money from the weak minded and foolish.

  77. avatar
    Wile E. February 16, 2011 at 4:05 pm #

    Bovril:
    Just did a drive by Wile E and reminded the muppet that the bottom of the COLB (link provided for him) says its inherently GTG for all legal purposes…….I mean for gods sake Certificate/Certification……

    They could label the document a chocolate frog and it would STILL be legal proof.

    What’s he going to do next, say one of the copied images posted on line had the serial number redacted so that invalidates the original……?

    Yes, I enjoyed your drive-by. But you were addressing one of the minor muppets, “Barry”. I sometimes don’t even respond to him because it’s difficult to decipher what he is trying to say in the first place. The main muppet is “bduares” and I’ve taken a special interest in him because he actually seems like a reasonably intelligent fella, though certainly not always reasonable.

    Thanks Scientist and G for your input. What you point out is how I had it figured in my mind with what little I know about this madness, but I was checking for any blind-spots I may have.

    What can any of you tell me about this claim I have seen bantered about….
    “”””Laws of the Territory of Hawaii ACT 96 To Provide For The Issuance Of Certificates Of Hawaiian Birth was in effect from 1911 until 1972 and allowed someone who was born outside the Hawaiian Islands to be registered as though he were born in Hawaii. Under that law, someone simply would have presented herself to the Hawaiian authorities and declared that the child was born in Hawaii. The person could have sworn under oath and presented witnesses and other evidence. If the authorities accepted it, that was the end of it. All a person had to do was file a false statement and Hawaii took them at their word.””””

  78. avatar
    Daniel February 16, 2011 at 4:11 pm #

    Wile E.:
    What can any of you tell me about this claim I have seen bantered about….
    “”””Laws of the Territory of Hawaii ACT 96 To Provide For The Issuance Of Certificates Of Hawaiian Birth was in effect from 1911 until 1972 and allowed someone who was born outside the Hawaiian Islands to be registered as though he were born in Hawaii. Under that law, someone simply would have presented herself to the Hawaiian authorities and declared that the child was born in Hawaii. The person could have sworn under oath and presented witnesses and other evidence. If the authorities accepted it, that was the end of it. All a person had to do was file a false statement and Hawaii took them at their word.””””

    Even if such a claim were literally true, which it isn’t, but lets suppose for a moment; Even if such a claim were literally true, the burden of proof is still on the birthers to show that such a thing actually happened in Obama’s case. IF the birthers were legally able to shift the burden in such a manner, then it would invalidate the citizenship of every person born in the State of Hawaii after that date.

  79. avatar
    Bovril February 16, 2011 at 4:16 pm #

    I humbly beg forgiveness and will return to smite the foul miscreant “bduares” after I do this bloody work like thing….

    As for the “Laws” BS, real simple, it’s utter bollocks, ask ’em for a link to the the law or be so kind as to show ONE SINGLE INSTANCE where this occurred.

    The ONLY recorded legal occassion of a dodgy place of birth is with Sun Yat Sen and the details are on this very web site

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/hawaiian-birth-certificate-its-a-fake/

  80. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 16, 2011 at 4:25 pm #

    Bovril: The ONLY recorded legal occassion of a dodgy place of birth is with Sun Yat Sen and the details are on this very web site

    And if I knew of another one, I would cover that here also.

  81. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 16, 2011 at 4:35 pm #

    Wile E.: What can any of you tell me about this claim I have seen bantered about….
    “”””Laws of the Territory of Hawaii ACT 96 To Provide For The Issuance Of Certificates Of Hawaiian Birth was in effect from 1911 until 1972 and allowed someone who was born outside the Hawaiian Islands to be registered as though he were born in Hawaii. Under that law, someone simply would have presented herself to the Hawaiian authorities and declared that the child was born in Hawaii. The person could have sworn under oath and presented witnesses and other evidence. If the authorities accepted it, that was the end of it. All a person had to do was file a false statement and Hawaii took them at their word.””””

    Well, in essence it is true. All states have provisions to register births of children born outside hospitals. There is nothing special about Hawaii, nor about the statutes in force prior to 1972. My own father, who was born in Alabama, has a birth certificate issued when he was an adult upon nothing more than the sworn statement of his mother. This was issued just before he left to serve in combat during World War II.

    Birthers make this sound sinister, and imply that Hawaii is some hot-bed of vital records fraud. Nothing is further from the truth.

    Where the instance of fraud is more common is in delayed reports where the parent claims the child was born in some place years after the event. Jurisdictions typically require more documentation in those cases. Delayed birth certificates (usually defined as filed one year or more after the birth) are typically not alone sufficient evidence of citizenship. Barack Obama’s birth was registered within 4 days of his birth.

  82. avatar
    Black Lion February 16, 2011 at 4:35 pm #

    Bovril: Just did a drive by Wile E and reminded the muppet that the bottom of the COLB (link provided for him) says its inherently GTG for all legal purposes…….I mean for gods sake Certificate/Certification……They could label the document a chocolate frog and it would STILL be legal proof.What’s he going to do next, say one of the copied images posted on line had the serial number redacted so that invalidates the original……?

    I also dropped by and shared a few nuggets of truth for the birther faithful….

  83. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 16, 2011 at 4:49 pm #

    Wile E.: “”””Where the problem starts is with the fact that at the time Obama was born, under Hawaiian law, it was legal and normal for a foreign national to be issued with a COLB from Hawaii, simply by virtue of their parents living in the state for a year, or being residents of the state, and additionally, it was not necessary for the actual parents to register a child in person themselves, any relative could do so. This document, also a “short form”, is also a statement that an original document is on file. Of course that original document on file would reflect that the birth took place elsewhere. With me so far?

    That law, which is called an “out of state registration” was passed in 1972, with nothing like it before. In any case, if a birth certificate (whatever it is called) says the the place of birth is Hawaii, then the State is saying that it’s Hawaii.

    States do not knowingly issue false documents (well there is the witness protection program, but you know…).

  84. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 16, 2011 at 4:52 pm #

    Wile E.: This is why, alone of all the states in the union, it is common for a Hawaii state government COLB (short form) to NOT be accepted as proof of nationality/right to work by many businesses and government offices there

    This is what I call the “lie of convenience.” Just ask your birther for some proof and refuse to talk to him about anything else until he concedes that he cannot support his claim.

  85. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 16, 2011 at 4:54 pm #

    Wile E.: One more thing – regarding foreign nationals being issued with Hawaiian COLBs – after 1980 this procedure was changed. Now they are issued with COFBs – certificate of foreign birth, rather than COLBs, and the reason for this change was exactly the scenario I have been describing: when you can’t trust a state short form certificate to cover your butt and prove you are hiring a legal employee, you gotta try to fix the system somehow

    Again, ask for proof of the claim. No proof, no valid claim.

    Generally the Certificate of Live Birth is a specific term for live births in the jurisdiction.

  86. avatar
    Scientist February 16, 2011 at 5:31 pm #

    WileE: Regarding claims of fraudulent registration, I think the issue is not whether a fraudulent registration is impossible, in the way that my car exceeding the speed of light is impossible. Any birth regiistration, even one attested to by a doctor, could be fraudulent since doctors have been known to lie (there are doctors in the slammer for insurance fraud, dispensing phony prescriptions for oxycodone, etc.). So even a hospital b.c wouldn’t absolutely, positively preclude some elaborate fraud (FedEx used to advertise “when it absolutey, positively has to be there overnnight”, yet I have had FedEx packages delayed and even lost). The point is, as noted above, that there is no EVIDENCE of fraud. And in the absence of EVIDENCE, there is no reason to believe fraud occured. Nor is it possible to prove to scientific certainty that fraud couldn’t possibly have occurred. In real life, that’s how it goes.

    For the record, any of the other 42 Presidents could have been born in Canada and smuggled into the US as an infant and adopted by the family that we all believe gave birth to them. I defy anyone to prove that is impossible. Moreover, suppose that had happened; what difference would it make?

  87. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 16, 2011 at 5:32 pm #

    gorefan: At this point, it is not known if the 1965 passport was her first passport or a renewal.

    At that time, a passport could be renewed only once She could have had a passport before 1965, but the 1965 one was not a renewal since it was itself renewed.

  88. avatar
    Greg February 16, 2011 at 5:35 pm #

    nc1: ===================================================================

    Read the UIPA law – it allows the release of birth index data.It specifically mentions name, sex and other data that the Director of DoH authorizes,

    It is up to DoH to allow registration number to be included in the respons about birth registration uindex.

    This is what Hawaii lawyers said (in 1990) about the release of index data:
    http://hawaii.gov/oip/opinionletters/opinion%2090-23.pdf

    “Index data consisting of name, age, and sex of the registrant and date, type, and file number of the vital event and such other data as the director may authorize may be made available to the public.”

    Abercrombie can release full birth registration index data for Obama without asking for permission.

    Then it will be trivial for you to get them to release Someone’s index number. You, apparently, understand Hawaiian law much better than the current officials in Hawaii.

    The minute you convince them that you are right and that they’ve misread their law, then I’ll believe you, too. It’s simple, really.

    Put up, or shut up!

  89. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 16, 2011 at 5:36 pm #

    nc1: An actual document will have to be submitted. Then we will see whether the COLB presented to us by FactCheck is a real deal or a forgery.

    Is there any doubt over the outcome? I think not.

  90. avatar
    gorefan February 16, 2011 at 5:41 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: but the 1965 one was not a renewal since it was itself renewed.

    Or was she seeking an amendment to change the name to Soetoro?

  91. avatar
    Greg February 16, 2011 at 5:47 pm #

    nc1: ===================================================================

    Read the UIPA law – it allows the release of birth index data.It specifically mentions name, sex and other data that the Director of DoH authorizes,

    It is up to DoH to allow registration number to be included in the respons about birth registration uindex.

    This is what Hawaii lawyers said (in 1990) about the release of index data:
    http://hawaii.gov/oip/opinionletters/opinion%2090-23.pdf

    “Index data consisting of name, age, and sex of the registrant and date, type, and file number of the vital event and such other data as the director may authorize may be made available to the public.”

    Abercrombie can release full birth registration index data for Obama without asking for permission.

    Actually, nc1, a look at the statute in question shows the it was amended in 1997 and 2001. It no longer says the DOH can release file number:

    (d) Index data consisting of name and sex of the registrant, type of vital event, and such other data as the director may authorize shall be made available to the public.

    Do you think the Hawaiian legislature knew in 1997 that it would have to cover up Obama’s index number?

  92. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 16, 2011 at 5:48 pm #

    The main article has been updated.

  93. avatar
    Sef February 16, 2011 at 5:55 pm #

    Greg: Actually, nc1, a look at the statute in question shows the it was amended in 1997 and 2001. It no longer says the DOH can release file number:

    Do you think the Hawaiian legislature knew in 1997 that it would have to cover up Obama’s index number?

    Have anyone thought to check what the LDS genealogical library might have to answer some of these questions? They went around the country & microfilmed everything they could get their hands on. It probably wouldn’t be valid in Court, but might quiet some people.

  94. avatar
    misha February 16, 2011 at 5:58 pm #

    Sef: Have anyone thought to check what the LDS genealogical library might have to answer some of these questions? They went around the country & microfilmed everything they could get their hands on. It probably wouldn’t be valid in Court, but might quiet some people.

    Denialists won’t like what they hear, so they are avoiding the LDS and Ankeny.

  95. avatar
    Daniel February 16, 2011 at 6:53 pm #

    Sef: Have anyone thought to check what the LDS genealogical library might have to answer some of these questions?They went around the country & microfilmed everything they could get their hands on.It probably wouldn’t be valid in Court, but might quiet some people.

    But those LDS are a CULT!!!!!!

    They are tools of SATAN!!!!

    Anything they have is a LIE!!!!

    In fact if they do have records of Obama’s birth in HI, that would be proof that he wasn’t….

    /sarcasm off

  96. avatar
    Northland10 February 16, 2011 at 7:16 pm #

    nc1: Once a state passes a “birther law” there will be no hiding behind Fukino’s words.

    I did not ask about Fukino’s words. I asked you to:

    Provide evidence he was born elsewhere.

    NC1, If you have doubts and state that Fukino and Obama are being untruthful (fraudulent), you must have evidence that he was born elsewhere. What is that evidence?

    Can you Provide evidence he was born elsewhere?

  97. avatar
    Daniel February 16, 2011 at 7:21 pm #

    Northland10: I did not ask about Fukino’s words.I asked you to:

    NC1, If you have doubts and state that Fukino and Obama are being untruthful (fraudulent), you must have evidence that he was born elsewhere. What is that evidence?

    Can you Provide evidence he was born elsewhere?

    In the birther court, and objective, substantive, and conclusive evidence that disagrees with them is false by default, whereas “shouldwouldacoulda” is more than enough, if it agrees with them.

  98. avatar
    Rickey February 16, 2011 at 10:45 pm #

    nc1: Once a state passes a “birther law” there will be no hiding behind Fukino’s words.

    HB 283 may pass in Missouri, but you aren’t going to like it. It only calls for proof of identity and proof of citizenship. That can be done with a passport.

    http://ohforgoodnesssake.com/?p=16322

  99. avatar
    G February 16, 2011 at 10:56 pm #

    I received my copy of the book. The so-called debunking is crap. It’s a few bits from early news reports or half-informed web sites. It has nothing from the author’s several trips to Kenya, and is totally and completely lacking in evidence. Some of the information is out of date and other claims are unsupported. The two pages of text on this topic are found between page 208 and 210 (it’s not easy to find).

    How disappointing! Not only did it miss a great opportunity by neglecting the trips to Kenya as a chance to pursue better debunking, but also sounds like just an overall lazy and sloppy job for an investigative author, especially after the publicity blurb.

  100. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 16, 2011 at 11:41 pm #

    Sef: Have anyone thought to check what the LDS genealogical library might have to answer some of these questions?

    It’s an interesting idea, although I wouldn’t think the LDS would be particularly interested in a birth index that doesn’t list parents. But you never know.

  101. avatar
    nc1 February 17, 2011 at 4:04 am #

    gorefan: You need to be able to torture logic to understand it.But I think it goes like this.Back in the 70′;s and 80′s the index data from DOH consisted of name, date, vital event and index number.At some point that was changed to just name, date, and vital event.Birthers argue that index numbers were public information before the change in the regulations.Therefore any index number before the regs were changed is still public information.

    ===================================================================

    Almost right – they did not change the definition of birth index – they changed what must be released to the public upon request.

    The rest of the index data (date and registration number) can be released if the DoH Director approves it.

    We know that Abercrombie was eager to end the birther controversy – here is his chance – he can release the full birth registration index data without asking for Obama’s approval. There is no doubt that lawyers advising Abercrombie know about this law.

    If you haven’t noticed Abercrombie stopped talking about the issue.

  102. avatar
    nc1 February 17, 2011 at 4:20 am #

    Greg: Actually, nc1, a look at the statute in question shows the it was amended in 1997 and 2001. It no longer says the DOH can release file number:

    Do you think the Hawaiian legislature knew in 1997 that it would have to cover up Obama’s index number?

    ===================================================================

    Legislature did not prohibit the release of date and registration number – they left it at the discretion of DoH director.

    Read you own post again.

  103. avatar
    nc1 February 17, 2011 at 4:39 am #

    Northland10: I did not ask about Fukino’s words.I asked you to:

    NC1, If you have doubts and state that Fukino and Obama are being untruthful (fraudulent), you must have evidence that he was born elsewhere. What is that evidence?

    Can you Provide evidence he was born elsewhere?

    ==================================================================

    If we can verify that Obama was indeed born in the USA we don’t have to go on a goose chase for evidence of possible birth in Kenya or Canada.

    According to US laws, certain information is in public domain and should be released upon request. If government officials actually followed the law, it would be very easy to verify whether Obama was indeed born in the USA. His cooperation in this matter is not needed although it is telling that he has refused to release an official copy of his birth certificate.

    If you and other Obama supporters were interested in truth you would have supported requests for the release of public information.

  104. avatar
    The Magic M February 17, 2011 at 5:15 am #

    > although it is telling that he has refused to release an official copy of his birth certificate

    Which is only “telling” within the birtherverse. In the real world, the COLB *is* an “official copy of his birth certificate”, it’s just that you birthers won’t accept that.

    I wonder how you would react if someone pulled the same tricks on you. E.g. a cop throws you in jail because your driver’s license is not enough for him, your certified Hawaiian COLB is not enough for him and your copy of your “long form BC”, should you, arguendo, even be able to get one from Hawaii, he considers a forgery, so he keeps you locked up until you prove to his personal satisfaction that you are who you claim you are.
    I wonder at which step you would cry out “police state!” or “abuse of my civil rights!”. Probably already when he starts doubting the validity of your driver’s license.

    > If you and other Obama supporters were interested in truth you would have supported requests for the release of public information.

    Sure, and we would have supported requests for DNA tests, a subpoena of the entire Kenyan government and the release of the kindergarten records of every member of Congress.
    It is your problem alone if your definition of “truth” goes way beyond that of a sane person.
    It comes across as even more bigoted and hypocritical if your call for “truth” is accompanied by an astonishingly easy belief in lies, allegations and obvious forgeries such as the Kenyan BC. If you were really interested in the “truth”, you would not give more weight to obvious BS than to actual facts (such as the clear wording of the law or the clear statements of Hawaiian officials).

    However, spreading lies and the same long-debunked myths and half-truths and claiming that you are “after the truth only” do not go well together.
    It’s a bit like saying “I’m not a misogynist, I just want to know the truth about these damn small-brained b….s with their useless XX chromosomes”.

  105. avatar
    Northland10 February 17, 2011 at 6:43 am #

    nc1: If we can verify that Obama was indeed born in the USA we don’t have to go on a goose chase for evidence of possible birth in Kenya or Canada.

    So, that would be no. You have no evidence that he is born elsewhere, yet you state the what he has provided is not verification, even though it is. It is obvious that the truth means little to you but, instead, that there is somebody you do not like as the President. On top of that, you are too lazy to defend your own cause by finding evidence. You want Hawaii and Obama to prove how you think they are guilty for you.

    In all honesty, I did not expect much different of an answer. However, unlike others here, I thought that I might give you the opportunity to truly engage and show the reasoning on why you think he was not born Hawaii. Unfortunately, all you managed to prove is that the others are right. You had the opportunity and open ears to prove your case and you squandered it. What a pity.

    nc1: If you and other Obama supporters were interested in truth you would have supported requests for the release of public information.

    Since all evidence shows he was born in Hawaii and there is no evidence that he was born elsewhere, what other truth could there be? Since the release will only tell us what we already know, why should I care? He is still our President.

  106. avatar
    Northland10 February 17, 2011 at 6:47 am #

    nc1: If you haven’t noticed Abercrombie stopped talking about the issue.

    If you haven’t noticed, Obama is still President, the Birthers are still 0-80+ in the courts, the Congress will do nothing about this, and birther bills are falling faster than the snow in our last blizzard.

    Do try to keep up.

  107. avatar
    Greg February 17, 2011 at 8:54 am #

    nc1: Legislature did not prohibit the release of date and registration number – they left it at the discretion of DoH director.

    I’m sure you’ve read the legislative history. Why’d they change the legislation to take OUT the number?

    And, what evidence do you have that this is something the director can change on a case-by-case basis? “We’ll release the index number for Obama, but no one else!”

    Could the Director publish ANY information he wanted to, and call it index data? If not, where does that limit come from? Could there be OTHER laws at play here?

    nc1: If we can verify that Obama was indeed born in the USA we don’t have to go on a goose chase for evidence of possible birth in Kenya or Canada.

    But, we DO have evidence he was born in the USA.

    We have a COLB.
    We have statements made by the Governor of Hawaii and the director of HI DOH.
    We have contemporaneous newspaper announcements.
    Etc., etc., etc.

    Against this, we have nothing credible or substantive suggesting he was born in Kenya.

    Evidence v. no evidence.

    You’re the one who disbelieves the status quo. The burden is on you to give reasons why we should also disbelieve the status quo.

    Right now, it seems to boil down to:

    1. I don’t like the president.
    2. The COLB doesn’t have footprints.
    3. I can tell the state of Hawaii is lying to me because, well, I just can.
    4. The President is acting fishy by not giving me everything I want, even though I held my breath and stamped my feet.

    Not the most convincing of stuff there, nc1.

    nc1: If government officials actually followed the law

    What you mean to say is that if government officials CHANGED their interpretation of the law to fit YOUR reading of it.

    You cite nothing that suggests the Director can, willy-nilly, decide to publish Obama’s index number – the OIP report you posted referred to a law that is no longer operative.

    State of Hawaii versus nc1. I know which horse I’m backing in this race.

    Look, I’ll be nice and give you a roadmap for proving your case.

    1. Request the index number of someone in Hawaii.
    2. When you don’t get the index number – sue the State of Hawaii.

    When you win that lawsuit, you can tell us how Hawaii is misinterpreting its laws.

    If you want a shortcut, find me a case where someone has won that lawsuit.

  108. avatar
    G February 17, 2011 at 9:33 am #

    nc1: ===================================================================Legislature did not prohibit the release of date and registration number – they left it at the discretion of DoH director…and 2 other posts with the same broken record arguments…blah, blah, blah.

    Well, The Magic M, Northland10 & Greg have already COMPLETELY answered you on all your posts this morning again…so there is nothing really for me to add that hasn’t already been said, except to restate this point:

    Greg: Look, I’ll be nice and give you a roadmap for proving your case.

    1. Request the index number of someone in Hawaii.
    2. When you don’t get the index number – sue the State of Hawaii.
    When you win that lawsuit, you can tell us how Hawaii is misinterpreting its laws.
    If you want a shortcut, find me a case where someone has won that lawsuit.

    So put up or shut up, NC1. Quit whining and get right on that… or are you afraid to actually do anything but mouth off like a fool?

  109. avatar
    Sef February 17, 2011 at 10:29 am #

    nc1: Legislature did not prohibit the release of date and registration number – they left it at the discretion of DoH director.

    The DOH is required to follow their rules and procedures. You need to prove that these rules and procedures are not in compliance with the laws passed by the legislature. Good luck with that.

  110. avatar
    JoZeppy February 17, 2011 at 10:42 am #

    nc1: Legislature did not prohibit the release of date and registration number – they left it at the discretion of DoH director.
    Read you own post again.

    Read the DoH’s website. The index as they currently keep it consists of a name, date, sex, and type of event. In the case of President Obama, they have release the data that they currently have a policy of releasing. The point is, currently they do not, nor are they required to give you more. The language actually gives the Direct quite broad discretion as to how they index the information. In theory, he could include whether it was a hospital birth, names of witness attending the birth, and a bunch of other information that they may have on file. But again, they don’t. And as the director, using his discretion, has chosen not to keep that information as part of the information they release on the idex, the governor, nor anyone else in the State of Hawaii, can give that information out, until they actually change the administrative policy.

    And it comes to another point….what difference does it make? Every bit of information that has been released all supports him being born in Hawaii. Nothing has been shown to support him being born anywhere else. NOTHING!!!! Just because you can think of one more bit of information you would like, and are not entitled to get, doesn’t undermine everything that without exception points to a Hawaiian birth.

  111. avatar
    JoZeppy February 17, 2011 at 11:04 am #

    nc1: ===================================================================Almost right – they did not change the definition of birth index – they changed what must be released to the public upon request. The rest of the index data (date and registration number) can be released if the DoH Director approves it. We know that Abercrombie was eager to end the birther controversy – here is his chance – he can release the full birth registration index data without asking for Obama’s approval. There is no doubt that lawyers advising Abercrombie know about this law. If you haven’t noticed Abercrombie stopped talking about the issue.

    Almost right. They are not required to release anything at all. Note the statute uses the word “may.” And the “index data” is whatever they chose to keep in the index (which is up to the director), and they have released that information. And I’m sure the real lawyers have told the governor that. And perhaps the reason the governor isn’t talking about it anymore is because the real lawyers have told him that all the information that they can release under current Hawaiian statutes and regulations has been release, and it won’t make a lick of difference if they could release more, because birthers are just closed minded nutters that continue to ignore the fact that all evidence points to the president being born in Hawaii, and not a shred of evidence to counter that, and yet they still cling to rumour, innuendo, and debunked lies.

  112. avatar
    Daniel February 17, 2011 at 11:20 am #

    nc1: We know that Abercrombie was eager to end the birther controversy – here is his chance – he can release the full birth registration index data without asking for Obama’s approval. There is no doubt that lawyers advising Abercrombie know about this law.

    And how long after that release would it take you to claim that the data that you don’t want to be there had been faked?

  113. avatar
    Daniel February 17, 2011 at 11:23 am #

    nc1: If you and other Obama supporters were interested in truth you would have supported requests for the release of public information.

    If you and other birthers were interested in public mental health, you wouldn’t be pretending that there is an issue at all.

  114. avatar
    ellid February 17, 2011 at 3:37 pm #

    nc1: ==================================================================

    If we can verify that Obama was indeed born in the USA we don’t have to go on a goose chase for evidence of possible birth in Kenya or Canada.

    According to US laws, certain information is in public domain and should be released upon request.If government officials actually followed the law, it would be very easy to verify whether Obama was indeed born in the USA.His cooperation in this matter is not needed although it is telling that he has refused to release an official copy of his birth certificate.

    If you and other Obama supporters were interested in truth you would have supported requests for the release of public information.

    Short answer from nc1/Naturalized Citizen/Orly Taitz;

    No, I can’t provide any evidence.

  115. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 17, 2011 at 5:08 pm #

    ellid: Short answer from nc1/Naturalized Citizen/Orly Taitz;No, I can’t provide any evidence.

    Evidence? We don’t need no stinkin evidence!

  116. avatar
    Rickey February 17, 2011 at 5:38 pm #

    nc1: ===================================================================

    We know that Abercrombie was eager to end the birther controversy – here is his chance – he can release the full birth registration index data without asking for Obama’s approval.

    Really? If Hawaii DOH announced that the index data confirms that the registration number on the COLB matches the 1961 records, you would be satisfied that Obama was born in Hawaii? Why would you believe Hawaii officials on that point, when you refuse to believe everything else they have said about Obama having been born there?

    If we can verify that Obama was indeed born in the USA we don’t have to go on a goose chase for evidence of possible birth in Kenya or Canada.

    Jerome Corsi already went to Kenya in search of Obama’s birth records, and he came home empty-handed.

    Besides, we all know that even if you had Obama’s long-form birth certificate, a sworn affidavit from the doctor who delivered him, certified copies of Stanley Ann’s hospital records, and film of the birth itself, you would still claim that Obama is a usurper.

    I asked this of Mario several times, but he never had an answer: If you’re so confident about the Vattel theory, why do you need the birth records? Obama freely admits that his father wasn’t a U.S. citizen. Of course, finding an actual Constitutional lawyer who believes the Vattel nonsense is a problem for you.

  117. avatar
    Daniel February 17, 2011 at 5:46 pm #

    Rickey: If you’re so confident about the Vattel theory, why do you need the birth records?

    If you’re grasping at straws, it makes sense to grasp as many as you can.

  118. avatar
    Stanislaw February 17, 2011 at 6:56 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Evidence?We don’t need no stinkin evidence!

    Who needs evidence when you can just keep asking the same irrelevant questions over and over again? I think they learn that on the first day of Birtherism 101.

  119. avatar
    Northland10 February 17, 2011 at 11:03 pm #

    I just realized, NC1 is a really early morning person (or very late night person) or not from America. Interesting…

  120. avatar
    G February 17, 2011 at 11:30 pm #

    Northland10: I just realized, NC1 is a really early morning person (or very late night person) or not from America. Interesting…

    Well, we know that nc1 stands for “naturalized citizen” and it is a “she”…

    …with a poor understanding of American laws…

    NC1 tends to post often around 2-3 am EST – but then again, if she is on the west coast, say in CA – that’s not really too late to stay up.

    …hmmm…maybe those who’ve seen a connection between Orly and NC1 are on to something…

  121. avatar
    misha February 17, 2011 at 11:55 pm #

    G: …hmmm…maybe those who’ve seen a connection between Orly and NC1 are on to something…

    Have you ever seen Orly and nc1 in the same room together?

  122. avatar
    G February 18, 2011 at 12:05 am #

    misha: Have you ever seen Orly and nc1 in the same room together?

    😉

  123. avatar
    Sef February 18, 2011 at 12:14 am #

    G: Well, we know that nc1 stands for “naturalized citizen” and it is a “she”…

    …with a poor understanding of American laws…

    NC1 tends to post often around 2-3 am EST – but then again, if she is on the west coast, say in CA – that’s not really too late to stay up.

    …hmmm…maybe those who’ve seen a connection between Orly and NC1 are on to something…

    Maybe the “1” is of significance. Orly does think very highly of herself.

  124. avatar
    G February 18, 2011 at 12:20 am #

    Sef: Maybe the “1‘ is of significance. Orly does think very highly of herself.

    Then again, “one IS the lonliest number”….

  125. avatar
    nc1 February 18, 2011 at 1:58 am #

    Greg: (d) Index data consisting of name and sex of the registrant, type of vital event, and such other data as the director may authorize shall be made available to the public.

    ====================================================================

    You quoted the law and still have problems comprehending this sentence. It is clear that the DoH director can release other parts of birth index data – not just name, sex and type of vital event. When there is a public interest (clearly the information related to a presidential candidate falls under this category), the director decides whether to release full birth index. It is not up to Obama to make this decision.

    We know that registration number and date are part of the index data, it was publicly available 20 years ago. In one of my previous posts on this thread there is a link to the opinion letter written by state lawyers in 1990 mentioning these facts.

    There is no law preventing Abercrombie from releasing the full birth index data. The reason why he stopped talking about it is simple – it would expose official birthplace story as a lie.

    He broke the promise to prove birthers wrong.

    As long as the State of Hawaii refuses to confirm trivial things – COLB issuing date (June 6, 2007) and the registration number (10641), the image of that document is as worthless as images of Obama’s birth certificate from various other sources.

  126. avatar
    G February 18, 2011 at 2:06 am #

    nc1: As long as the State of Hawaii refuses to confirm trivial things – COLB issuing date (June 6, 2007) and the registration number (10641), the image of that document is as worthless as images of Obama’s birth certificate from various other sources.

    Yeah, you just keep telling yourself that. The only point you got correct here is that these things are “trivial”.

    Nothing trumps that the only relevant bit of info is PLACE of BIRTH (Honolulu, HI is clearly in the US) and that he is over 35.

    That has been answered. There is NO actual evidence that disputes that. Keep plucking that chicken and getting nowhere….

  127. avatar
    nc1 February 18, 2011 at 3:16 am #

    Rickey: Really? If Hawaii DOH announced that the index data confirms that the registration number on the COLB matches the 1961 records, you would be satisfied that Obama was born in Hawaii? Why would you believe Hawaii officials on that point, when you refuse to believe everything else they have said about Obama having been born there?

    If we can verify that Obama was indeed born in the USA we don’t have to go on a goose chase for evidence of possible birth in Kenya or Canada.

    Jerome Corsi already went to Kenya in search of Obama’s birth records, and he came home empty-handed.

    Besides, we all know that even if you had Obama’s long-form birth certificate, a sworn affidavit from the doctor who delivered him, certified copies of Stanley Ann’s hospital records, and film of the birth itself, you would still claim that Obama is a usurper.

    I asked this of Mario several times, but he never had an answer: If you’re so confident about the Vattel theory, why do you need the birth records? Obama freely admits that his father wasn’t a U.S. citizen. Of course, finding an actual Constitutional lawyer who believes the Vattel nonsense is a problem for you.

    Hawaii officials (from the previous administration) were very careful in their statements. I have no doubt that Obama’s birth was registered in Hawaii. The questions that need to be answered are: when did the registration take place and what was the source?

    Based on publicly available information I think that his birth was registered as an unattended one and the registration was not completed immediately after the birth but at a later point.

    If Hawaii officials confirmed that registration number 10641 is indeed Obama’s registration number it would tell us that the official birthplace story (Kapiolani Hospital) is not true. Compare Obama’s COLB with Nordyke long form birth certificates: The only way that his number could be legitimate is scenario where his unattended birth was reported on August 8 and it took three days to verify all details and stamp the number on the form on August 11, shortly after Nordyke certificates were processed.

    Had he been born at Kapiolani, his birth certificate should have been sent together with the rest of the Kapiolani certificates for that week and in that case his Date Filed would have been August 11.

    There is a reason why Jerome Corsi came back home empty-handed. He was detained at the airport by Kenyan police and deported. Kenyan government did not take chance letting him investigate Obama’s background. Care to guess why they did not want him in the country?

    I don’t think that Obama was born in the USA, nor do I think he is eligible as NBC because his father was a foreigner. It is much easier to go after the birth certificate issue. It is less open to interpretation.

    Let me give you an analogy – Al Capone was convicted for tax evasion – not for ordering rivals to be executed. Why did it happen: Government had tough time finding witnesses who would testify against him.

  128. avatar
    Lupin February 18, 2011 at 3:30 am #

    nc1: I don’t think that Obama was born in the USA, nor do I think he is eligible as NBC because his father was a foreigner. It is much easier to go after the birth certificate issue. It is less open to interpretation.

    I see the asperger person is at it again. Repeating, repeating, repeating the same thing as if somehow it makes it true.

    I’m reminded of this recent quote by Chris Rock (h/t Balloon Juice):

    Scott Raab: Like many nice Caucasians, I cried the night Barack Obama was elected. It was one of the high points in American history. And all that’s happened since the election is just a shitstorm of hatred. You want to weigh in on that?

    Chris Rock: I actually like it, in the sense that — you got kids? Kids always act up the most before they go to sleep. And when I see the Tea Party and all this stuff, it actually feels like racism’s almost over. Because this is the last — this is the act up before the sleep. They’re going crazy. They’re insane. You want to get rid of them — and the next thing you know, they’re fucking knocked out. And that’s what’s going on in the country right now.

    nc1’s racism is strangling her brain. Last gasp.

  129. avatar
    The Magic M February 18, 2011 at 4:51 am #

    > Kenyan government did not take chance letting him investigate Obama’s background.

    Interesting, since allegedly it was “the Kenyan government” which “claimed” that Obama was born in Kenya in the first place. And that there was even a statue of Obama at his alleged birthplace in Mombasa.
    So why all the secrecy all of a sudden? You would assume that if the Kenyan government was “in on the conspiracy”, they would never have “admitted” to an alleged Kenyan birth and never have built a statue at Obama’s alleged birthplace in the first place.
    That’s the thing about conspiracy theories; for the believers, it makes sense, but the sane people see the holes…

    > Hawaii officials (from the previous administration) were very careful in their statements.

    No, they simply didn’t say the magic words you wanted them to say. I suppose at least the “abracadabra” was missing.

    > Al Capone was convicted for tax evasion

    But Obama would not be “convicted”, nor rendered ineligible, for, arguendo, not having an “original long-form BC”. Even if it turned out to be an unattended home birth, that would be enough for the state to accept him as native-born (same as with Eisenhower).
    And since you cannot prove he lied about it, that’s it. And even if he lied about it, it would not be enough for impeachment, let alone “ex ante” ineligibility.
    So no matter how this turns out, you birthers would still not “win”.

    So since there is nothing to be gained for the birthers from Obama not having an “original long form BC”, why are the birthers asking for one?
    I believe they don’t hope he has none, but that he has one which somehow “embarrasses” him (in other words, in their dreams might make many people not vote for him again).

  130. avatar
    misha February 18, 2011 at 5:49 am #

    The Magic M: I believe they don’t hope he has none, but that he has one which somehow “embarrasses” him

    The “long form” probably shows Obama’s parents were not married. Christian moralists would have a field day – like James Dobson.

  131. avatar
    Northland10 February 18, 2011 at 7:14 am #

    nc1: I don’t think that Obama was born in the USA,

    So, what evidence do you have that we was born elsewhere?

  132. avatar
    Scientist February 18, 2011 at 7:22 am #

    nc1: It is much easier to go after the birth certificate issue. It is less open to interpretation.

    For once, nc1 has made a strikingly honest statement. For her/him/it, the entire story is about “going after” Obama. The reasons don’t matter, nor does truth or logic or decency.

  133. avatar
    The Magic M February 18, 2011 at 8:23 am #

    > Christian moralists would have a field day

    Sure, but that doesn’t have any implications on the baby. I dare wager that anyone who would not vote for Obama because he’s the offspring of two non-married parents would never have voted for him anyway.
    I think the birthers are rather hoping for something either more sinister (such as their “Frank Marshall Davis is the father” theory) or more appalling to the general public (such as his mother being a Hawaiian street hooker).

  134. avatar
    Greg February 18, 2011 at 9:52 am #

    nc1: Based on publicly available information I think that his birth was registered as an unattended one and the registration was not completed immediately after the birth but at a later point.

    You are so not getting the nature of evidence.

    Let’s pretend, for a second, that everything comes out exactly as you imagined and that a long form shows that Obama’s birth in Hawaii was unattended.

    Know what this proves?

    That Obama was BORN IN HAWAII!

    To rebut that bit of proof, you STILL HAVE TO SHOW HE WAS BORN SOMEWHERE ELSE!

    And you’ve admitted, time and again, that you have ZERO proof he was born anywhere but Hawaii.

    There are court cases saying that a birth certificate filed with the state 50 years after a person’s birth are prima facie evidence of the facts contained therein. Unrebutted, they prove that the person was born where the certificate says he was born.

    nc1: The only way that his number could be legitimate is scenario where his unattended birth was reported on August 8 and it took three days to verify all details and stamp the number on the form on August 11, shortly after Nordyke certificates were processed.

    This is really a failure of imagination, nc1.

    This isn’t the ONLY way that the number could be legitimate.

    Let’s see if we can imagine some other scenarios.

    Obama was born on a Friday. The Nordyke twins were born on a Saturday. State offices are closed on the weekends. Maybe the hospital put all the forms in a pile and submitted
    them on Monday.

    nc1: It is clear that the DoH director can release other parts of birth index data – not just name, sex and type of vital event.

    It’s clear from the law that the Director could release anything [s]he wanted, right?

    But, there are OTHER laws in Hawaii. You realize this, don’t you?

    There’s an administrative code that tells administrators what they can and cannot do. Changes in policy that have to have public comment and changes that have to be adjudicated.

    There’s a privacy law that tells administrators what they can and cannot release.

    The Hawaiian legislature affirmatively changed their law to take out index number from the list of things the director could release. If it’s so completely non-private, nc1, why did they do this? You really think they went to the trouble of amending their law for the heck of it?

    Here’s the thing, nc1. Your argument boils down, at the end of the day, to “trust me, I’m right and the State of Hawaii is wrong.” Except, you’ve given us no reason to believe that you are correct. You parrot birther arguments – the ones that have been rejected by 74 courts (and counting).

    You give us no case law.
    No legislative history.
    You try to sneak in a reference to the OIP report, which cites the pre-amendment law.

    You’ve got nothing except your personal interpretation of Hawaii law. Since you’ve wasted your credibility on birther nonsense, I’m going to go with Hawaii’s interpretation.

    nc1: Care to guess why they did not want him in the country?

    Maybe because he was violating their laws by working without a work permit?

    But you’re right, it makes much more sense to imagine that the whole world is lying to cover up for Obama.

    Do you believe Corsi when he says that Al Qaeda supported McCain financially? Or that Bush covered up 9/11? How about his allegation that W. was planning the joinder of the USA, Canada and Mexico.

    Yeah, why would I doubt Corsi?

  135. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 18, 2011 at 10:15 am #

    nc1: Based on publicly available information I think that his birth was registered as an unattended one and the registration was not completed immediately after the birth but at a later point.

    That’s odd. All the publicly available information I have ever seen says Obama was born in the Kapi’olani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital.

  136. avatar
    The Magic M February 18, 2011 at 11:01 am #

    > This isn’t the ONLY way that the number could be legitimate.

    In addition, birthers disregard the fact that from looking at two samples, it’s impossible to tell which one is “off”.
    I’ve had a similar discussion over at motherjones.com with a birfer who tried to back up his claims of the COLB being a forgery by looking at lo-res scans and claiming that because two words (of three) on a line were “1 pixel off”, they must have been added by Photoshop. Completely ignoring the fact that it was the other way around; the third word was off (compared to the alignment of all other words in relation to their label). But that single word being “off” wouldn’t have helped the birther argument, besides they of course didn’t bother checking if this word (the name of the island) was off on *every* COLB, pointing to a particularity of the template instead of “sloppy forgery”.

    And even if Obama’s record number is the one that’s “off”, that doesn’t mean it’s definitely (or even likely) forged.
    (As we’ve discussed here previously, the passport that had my eye colour plain wrong was 100% not a “forgery”; it wouldn’t even lead a customs officer or police officer to question the validity.)

  137. avatar
    G February 18, 2011 at 1:42 pm #

    Scientist: For once, nc1 has made a strikingly honest statement. For her/him/it, the entire story is about “going after” Obama. The reasons don’t matter, nor does truth or logic or decency.

    That pretty much sums up all birthers in a nutshell.

  138. avatar
    gorefan February 18, 2011 at 1:54 pm #

    nc1: The only way that his number could be legitimate is scenario where his unattended birth was reported on August 8 and it took three days to verify all details and stamp the number on the form on August 11, shortly after Nordyke certificates were processed.

    Once again you are making an assumption without evidence. You are assuming that the President’s number is out-of-whack, when it could be the Nordykes’ numbers are screwy

    Scenario:

    On Monday August 7th, 1961, all the BCs from children born over the weekend are typed up and taken to the maternity ward to be signed by the mothers. Then later that day or the next, they are sent to the DOH. At this point the BC are in no particular order. As the registrar is getting ready to sign the BCs, he suddenly realizes that the doctor had not signed the Nordykes’ BCs. So they were sent back to the hospital for signatures, but the cert numbers had already been assigned to them. And since the doctor didn’t go back to the Hospital until August 11th, that’s when he and the registrar both signed them.

  139. avatar
    Daniel February 18, 2011 at 2:00 pm #

    nc1: …I think…

    No… you don’t think…

    And that, is the basis of your problem with reality.

    You need to get this ass-backward idea that evidence arises from conclusion and start to realize that conclusions need to rise from evidence.

    As long as you reeeeeeeeeeally need to have Obama be ineligible, you will always be able to find spurious minutiae that you can repackage in “fact wrap”.

    It’s what you have to ignore in order to give a varnish of validity to your delusions that is more important than what you pretend to have found.

  140. avatar
    Rickey February 18, 2011 at 7:54 pm #

    nc1:

    Based on publicly available information I think that his birth was registered as an unattended one and the registration was not completed immediately after the birth but at a later point.

    Irrelevant, even if true. He would still be a natural-born U.S. citizen.

    Compare Obama’s COLB with Nordyke long form birth certificates:The only way that his number could be legitimate is scenario where his unattended birth was reported on August 8 and it took three days to verify all details and stamp the number on the form on August 11, shortly after Nordyke certificates were processed.

    You state that as a fact, but in reality you have no idea if Obama’s registration number is out of order, or if the Nordyke’s registration numbers were out of order, or if there was no particular order. Have you birthers tracked anyone down who has personal knowledge about how these documents were handled in 1961? I didn’t think so.

    And answer me this. Obama’s newspaper birth announcements appeared in the Honolulu newspapers on Sunday, August 13 and Monday, August 14. It is your contention that the Nordyke births were registered before Obama’s birth was registered. Yet the Nordyke birth announcements didn’t appear in the Honolulu newspapers until Wednesday, August 16. If the Nordyke births were in fact registered before Obama’s birth, we would expect to see the Nordyke announcements appear in the newspapers before Obama’s announcement, since the newspapers received that information directly from the Health Department. The fact that the newspapers printed Obama’s birth announcement before the Nordkyke birth announcements is powerful evidence that Obama’s birth was registered before that of the Nordykes – which proves that the “discrepancy” in registration numbers means absolutely nothing.

    Had he been born at Kapiolani, his birth certificate should have been sent together with the rest of the Kapiolani certificates for that week and in that case his Date Filed would have been August 11.

    You’re making that up. Where is your evidence that birth records were sent to DOH only once a week?

    There is a reason why Jerome Corsi came back home empty-handed.He was detained at the airport by Kenyan police and deported.Kenyan government did not take chance letting him investigate Obama’s background.Care to guess why they did not want him in the country?

    Because they found out that he is a serial liar and a con artist who swindled Minnesota investors out of $1,2 million?

    I don’t think that Obama was born in the USA

    When you find some admissible evidence about where he was really born, please let us know.

  141. avatar
    Judge Mental February 18, 2011 at 8:37 pm #

    misha: The “long form” probably shows Obama’s parents were not married. Christian moralists would have a field day – like James Dobson.

    Does a 1961 Hawaian long form birth certificate even have a section in which the marital status of the father and mother can be entered?

  142. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 18, 2011 at 9:22 pm #

    Judge Mental: Does a 1961 Hawaian long form birth certificate even have a section in which the marital status of the father and mother can be entered?

    It does not.

  143. avatar
    gorefan February 18, 2011 at 10:24 pm #

    Rickey: Where is your evidence that birth records were sent to DOH only once a week?

    This is based on – you guessed it – the birthers misreading of Hawaiian Regulations.

    “Public Health Regulations”, Chapter 8, Section 8, Transmittal of certificates. Local registrars shall transmit certificates filed with them weekly to the State Health Department.”

    http://gen.doh.hawaii.gov/sites/har/AdmRules1/8%208A%20B%20VR%20Admin%20Rules.pdf

    Birthers claim this means that Kapolani Hospital only sent their BCs to the DOH on Fridays. It says “weekly” but it doesn’t stop someone from sending them twice a week or more frequently, say for example, after a busy weekend. I’m sure this regulation was written to keep local registrars from letting the BCs pile up on their desks.

    Rickey: Yet the Nordyke birth announcements didn’t appear in the Honolulu newspapers until Wednesday, August 16.

    And other children born on August 5th as well as August 6th and 7th, made the same newspaper announcements as President Obama.

    So why didn’t the Nordyke’s announcements also go into those editions. The fact, that they were not registered until August 11th (is it the missing doctor again?) suggests they did not make the deadline for the two papers. Maybe the other birth announcements had already been sent ot the newspapers before the Nordyke’s doctor and the State registrar had signed their BCs.

  144. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 18, 2011 at 10:42 pm #

    gorefan: This is based on – you guessed it – the birthers misreading of Hawaiian Regulations.

    “Public Health Regulations”, Chapter 8, Section 8, Transmittal of certificates.Local registrars shall transmit certificates filed with them weekly to the State Health Department.”

    http://gen.doh.hawaii.gov/sites/har/AdmRules1/8%208A%20B%20VR%20Admin%20Rules.pdf

    Birthers claim this means that Kapolani Hospital only sent their BCs to the DOH on Fridays.It says “weekly” but it doesn’t stop someone from sending them twice a week or more frequently, say for example, after a busy weekend.I’m sure this regulation was written to keep local registrars from letting the BCs pile up on their desks.

    And other children born on August 5th as well as August 6th and 7th, made the same newspaper announcements as President Obama.

    So why didn’t the Nordyke’s announcements also go into those editions.The fact, that they were not registered until August 11th (is it the missing doctor again?) suggests they did not make the deadline for the two papers.Maybe the other birth announcements had already been sent ot the newspapers before the Nordyke’s doctor and the State registrar had signed their BCs.

    I think it would be a good idea for someone who lives in Hawaii to go to the public library and see if they can find the nordyke announcements

  145. avatar
    gorefan February 18, 2011 at 10:59 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): I think it would be a good idea for someone who lives in Hawaii to go to the public library and see if they can find the nordyke announcements

    Consider it done.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/01/nordyke-twins-birth-announcement-found/

  146. avatar
    misha February 19, 2011 at 1:00 am #

    Judge Mental: Does a 1961 Hawaian long form birth certificate even have a section in which the marital status of the father and mother can be entered?

    That was conjecture. I should have noted that.

  147. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 19, 2011 at 1:13 am #

    gorefan: Consider it done.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/01/nordyke-twins-birth-announcement-found/
    oh yeah i forgot about that

  148. avatar
    Wile E. February 19, 2011 at 1:20 am #

    gorefan:

    ….. but the cert numbers had already been assigned to them……

    Quick question….Do we know that the blank “Certificates of Live Birth”s didn’t already have numbers pre-printed on them?

  149. avatar
    nc1 February 19, 2011 at 5:13 am #

    gorefan: Once again you are making an assumption without evidence.You are assuming that the President’s number is out-of-whack, when it could be the Nordykes’ numbers are screwy

    Scenario:

    On Monday August 7th, 1961, all the BCs from children born over the weekend are typed up and taken to the maternity ward to be signed by the mothers.Then later that day or the next, they are sent to the DOH.At this point the BC are in no particular order.As the registrar is getting ready to sign the BCs, he suddenly realizes that the doctor had not signed the Nordykes’ BCs.So they were sent back to the hospital for signatures, but the cert numbers had already been assigned to them.And since the doctor didn’t go back to the Hospital until August 11th, that’s when he and the registrar both signed them.

    Your logic is twisted like a pretzel: You have to rely on multiple errors made in succession while processing Nordyke certificates in order to make your logic work.

    How do you explain local registrar sending certificates to the central office without signing it himself and without physician’s signature?

    It would be even more surprising that the state registrar assigned numbers to two certificates (Nordyke TWINS), each missing two required signatures.

    How could I have missed such an obvious scenario?

  150. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 19, 2011 at 8:42 am #

    nc1: You have to rely on multiple errors made in succession while processing Nordyke certificates in order to make your logic work.

    I think you have this backwards. You rely on a complicated and precise business process that you don’t even know existed in order to insure that the numbers are in order the way you expect them to be. In fact, you are relying on a host of assumptions for which you have no evidence.

  151. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 19, 2011 at 8:49 am #

    Wile E.: Quick question….Do we know that the blank “Certificates of Live Birth”s didn’t already have numbers pre-printed on them?

    Yes. Department of Health spokesperson Akubo stated that the numbers were assigned at the end of the process. There are many reasons why prenumbered forms simply would not work for this application. The state file number is what we call and accession number. Vital records are filed in volumes by number. It is essential that the numbers be sequential as the documents are put in the volumes as it would be a nightmare to go back and insert numbers into already filled volumes as oddly numbered certificates filtered in from the other islands.

  152. avatar
    gorefan February 19, 2011 at 12:40 pm #

    nc1: Your logic is twisted like a pretzel:

    Right but your’s makes so much more sense. In 1961, 18 year old girl who is 8 months pregnant,goes half way around the world to have baby, and as soon as it is born, makes transAtlantic phone call to grandmother telling her to rush to the DOH and register the birth. Then the registrar assigns a date based on no evidence, but three days later finds the evidence. And verifies the birth is legit. You are ridiculous.

    What would that evidence be? A baby that is in Africa?

    How did the Dunhams know that they could go to the DOH and register a birth, much less a birth in a foreign country? Wouldn’t it be more likely they would have contacted the State Department not the DOH? Or were they experts in Hawaii birth registration laws?

    You fail on the birth certificate and you fail on Vattel – sad to be you.

  153. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 19, 2011 at 1:05 pm #

    gorefan: So they were sent back to the hospital for signatures, but the cert numbers had already been assigned to them.

    This doesn’t work. They would not have numbered a certificate until it was correct. However, there is no reason to assume any strange processing. Obama and Nordyke were numbered on the same day and there is no reason to think they had to be in date order before they were numbered; indeed, simply alphabetizing the stack to be numbered explains everything.

  154. avatar
    nc1 February 21, 2011 at 4:17 am #

    gorefan: Right but your’s makes so much more sense.In 1961, 18 year old girl who is 8 months pregnant,goes half way around the world to have baby, and as soon as it is born, makes transAtlantic phone call to grandmother telling her to rush to the DOH and register the birth.Then the registrar assigns a date based on no evidence, but three days later finds the evidence.And verifies the birth is legit.You are ridiculous.

    What would that evidence be? A baby that is in Africa?

    How did the Dunhams know that they could go to the DOH and register a birth, much less a birth in a foreign country?Wouldn’t it be more likely they would have contacted the State Department not the DOH?Or were they experts in Hawaii birth registration laws?

    You fail on the birth certificate and you fail on Vattel – sad to be you.

    If my logic was wrong it would be easy to prove it – government will release passport records for Obama’s mother (issued in 1965 and possibly prior to 1965) – there will be no record that she returned to the USA with a newborn baby.

    The Hawaii DoH will release the full birth index data including the registration number 10641 – we know it is up to Abercrombie to make this decision.

    It is very simple to prove birthers wrong – data which is supposed to be in public domain could do it.

    The fact that hide and seek the documents game has been played for almost three years tells me all I need to know about truthfulness of the official birthplace story. Obama was not born in the Kapiolani Hospital.

    Big mouth Abercrombie would not have missed the opportunity to shut the birthers up once and for all.

  155. avatar
    The Magic M February 21, 2011 at 4:34 am #

    > If my logic was wrong it would be easy to prove it – government will release passport records for Obama’s mother (issued in 1965 and possibly prior to 1965) – there will be no record that she returned to the USA with a newborn baby.

    You know very well that birthers’ reaction to “Hawaii says: there is no record” will be “they are hiding it”.

    How do you prove to people like birthers that something does not exist?

    > If my logic was wrong it would be easy to prove it

    Sure, if my logic that Earth is flat was wrong, it would be easy to prove it – the government would just have to sponsor a sea cruise around the world for me or take me on the next space shuttle mission. Right.

  156. avatar
    Sef February 21, 2011 at 10:42 am #

    nc1: If my logic was wrong it would be easy to prove it – government will release passport records for Obama’s mother (issued in 1965 and possibly prior to 1965) – there will be no record that she returned to the USA with a newborn baby.

    You’re missing the real reason for the government not tying up all the loose ends for you; it gives you a shiny object to focus on so you are distracted and continue to look like the crazies we all know you to be.

  157. avatar
    gorefan February 21, 2011 at 11:27 am #

    nc1: we know it is up to Abercrombie to make this decision.

    You forgot to add “In my interpetation of Hawaiian Law, I know…decision.”

    If you truely believe that the vast conspiracy includes the Federal government hiding documents and creating fake memos, then what is stopping them from creating a fake 1965 passport and simply declaring that there is no record of a previous passport. That would be proof positive that Dr. Dunham could not have been in Africa in 1961.

    Again, the fact that they did not release a pre-August 1961 passport, shows that she could not have gone to Africa in June or July, 1961. And we know from Hawaii officials that the President was born in Hawaii.

    “Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai’i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai’i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures,” Fukino said in the three paragraph statement.

    “No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai’i,” the statement concludes.

    Does this mean Obama was born in Hawaii?

    “Yes,” said Hawaii Health Department spokeswoman Janice Okubo, in both email and telephone interviews with the Tribune. “That’s what Dr. Fukino is saying.

    http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/11/obama_hawaaianborn_citizen_for.html

    So, was Janice Okubo lying to the Tribune?
    Why would Dr. Fukino (who has donated money to the Hawaiian GOP) also lie?

  158. avatar
    Rickey February 21, 2011 at 12:18 pm #

    nc1:

    The Hawaii DoH will release the full birth index data including the registration number 10641 – we know it is up to Abercrombie to make this decision.

    If registration number 10641 wasn’t assigned to Obama, who was it assigned to? Instead of spending money to send Jerome Corsi to Kenya or paying for Orly’s sanctions or funding Andy Martin’s Hawaiian vacations, why not invest in some real investigative journalism? Have a reporter examine the birth index at Hawaii DOH and the newspaper birth announcements for the first two weeks of August, 1961 and start tracking down the people who were born then and their families, and ask for their registration numbers. Or how about this – take out an ad in the Honolulu newspaper offering a $10,000 reward to the person born in Hawaii in 1961 who was given birth registration number 10641! Of course, that could backfire when Obama comes forward to claim the reward.

    We know that 10641 had to have been assigned to someone. If you want to prove that it wasn’t assigned to Obama, find that someone and you have something to talk about.

  159. avatar
    sef February 21, 2011 at 1:01 pm #

    Rickey: If registration number 10641 wasn’t assigned to Obama, who was it assigned to? Instead of spending money to send Jerome Corsi to Kenya or paying for Orly’s sanctions or funding Andy Martin’s Hawaiian vacations, why not invest in some real investigative journalism? Have a reporter examine the birth index at Hawaii DOH and the newspaper birth announcements for the first two weeks of August, 1961 and start tracking down the people who were born then and their families, and ask for their registration numbers. Or how about this – take out an ad in the Honolulu newspaper offering a $10,000 reward to the person born in Hawaii in 1961 who was given birth registration number 10641!Of course, that could backfire when Obama comes forward to claim the reward.

    We know that 10641 had to have been assigned to someone. If you want to prove that it wasn’t assigned to Obama, find that someone and you have something to talk about.

    This is why I mentioned that it would be prudent to check the LDS records. They might have microfilmed an early birth index copy which contained the number. Iron Mountain contains the answer.

  160. avatar
    Northland10 February 21, 2011 at 5:18 pm #

    nc1: Obama was not born in the Kapiolani Hospital.

    So, where was he born? What’s your evidence he was born there?

    If you state he was not born in “Kapiolani Hospital,” and you do not have evidence he was born elsewhere, does that mean he just appeared? Is this why many birthers like to refer to him as a messiah?

    If you are correct, he was not born in “Kapiolani Hospital,” how does his change his status as a Natural Born Citizen? Do you have to be born in a hospital to be NBC?

    But with your story, I have doubts. If you would just provide the evidence, it may shut us up once and for all.

  161. avatar
    nc1 February 21, 2011 at 5:32 pm #

    gorefan: You forgot to add “In my interpetation of Hawaiian Law, I know…decision.”

    If you truely believe that the vast conspiracy includes the Federal government hiding documents and creating fake memos, then what is stopping them from creating a fake 1965 passport and simply declaring that there is no record of a previous passport.That would be proof positive that Dr. Dunham could not have been in Africa in 1961.

    Again, the fact that they did not release a pre-August 1961 passport, shows that she could not have gone to Africa in June or July, 1961.And we know from Hawaii officials that the President was born in Hawaii.

    “Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai’i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai’i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures,” Fukino said in the three paragraph statement.

    “No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai’i,” the statement concludes.

    Does this mean Obama was born in Hawaii?


    “Yes,” said Hawaii Health Department spokeswoman Janice Okubo, in both email and telephone interviews with the Tribune. “That’s what Dr. Fukino is saying.

    http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/11/obama_hawaaianborn_citizen_for.html

    So, was Janice Okubo lying to the Tribune?
    Why would Dr. Fukino (who has donated money to the Hawaiian GOP) also lie?

    1. Fukino’s and Okubo’s statements are most likely based on an unattended birth registration.

    2. If there was nothing to hide government should have released all passport records for Obama’s mother.

    Nobody is going to persuade me that US government destroyed passport application records for live people without having a specific order for doing so and even in that case it is very likely that a microfiche copy would have been made.

  162. avatar
    nc1 February 21, 2011 at 5:45 pm #

    Northland10: So, where was he born?What’s your evidence he was born there?

    If you state he was not born in “Kapiolani Hospital,” and you do not have evidence he was born elsewhere, does that mean he just appeared?Is this why many birthers like to refer to him as a messiah?

    If you are correct, he was not born in “Kapiolani Hospital,”how does his change his status as a Natural Born Citizen?Do you have to be born in a hospital to be NBC?

    But with your story, I have doubts.If you would just provide the evidence, it may shut us up once and for all.

    My evidence is circumstantial – the registration number shown on Obama’s COLB and the Date Filed do not fit the offical birthplace story (Kapiolani Hospital).

    In addition, Abercrombie missed the opportunity to fullfill his promise and prove birthers wrong: the “writen down” thing is not the same as long form birth certificate he expected to find in DoH records.

    At any time he can release the full birth registration index – why is he silent.

    If Obama was born at home why would the official story be different? A follow up investigation into passport and consular records would have to be made to check whether his mother returned from abroad with a newborn baby.

    This is not a complicated issue. At least it should not have been for a person claiming birth on USA soil.

  163. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 21, 2011 at 5:56 pm #

    nc1: 1. Fukino’s and Okubo’s statements are most likely based on an unattended birth registration.

    2.If there was nothing to hide government should have released all passport records for Obama’smother.

    Nobody is going to persuade me that US government destroyed passport application records for live people without having a specific order for doing so and even in that case it is very likely that a microfiche copy would have been made.

    How are they most likely based on an unattended birth? What evidence do you have of that? What is the purpose of keeping decades old receipts for a passport application if they person has a passport? How long do you think your state would keep your receipts for when you paid for your driver’s license the first time?

  164. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 21, 2011 at 5:59 pm #

    nc1: My evidence is circumstantial – the registration number shown on Obama’s COLB and the Date Filed do not fit the offical birthplace story (Kapiolani Hospital).

    In addition, Abercrombie missed the opportunity to fullfill his promise and prove birthers wrong:the “writen down” thing is not the same as long form birth certificate he expected to find in DoH records.

    At any time he can release the full birth registration index – why is he silent.

    If Obama was born at home why would the official story be different? A follow up investigation into passport and consular records would have to be made to check whether his mother returned from abroad with a newborn baby.

    This is not a complicated issue. At least it should not have been for a person claiming birth on USA soil.

    What you call evidence is completely made up and non-existent. There is nothing to prove that things are the way you say they are. You haven’t anything to compare the Nordyke and Obama birth certificates to, to somehow say one is out of order or the other. You haven’t bothered to take the time to track down people born during the same time period to ask them for their registration number. So all you have is mere speculation.

    Nowhere did Abercrombie claim he was going to look for the long form. Once again this is you lying about what was said.

    This isn’t complicated if you think he was born elsewhere it is on you to prove it. So far all available evidence shows he was born in Hawaii. If you think he was born elsewhere you should have no problem finding passenger manifests proving his mother traveled overseas during the time he was born.

  165. avatar
    Sef February 21, 2011 at 8:28 pm #

    nc1: At any time he can release the full birth registration index – why is he silent.

    You and all the other birthers seem to think that President Obama sees anything to be silent about. No one of competent jurisdiction has asked to see any of his birth information. He provided the world with the document the State of Hawaii issued to him. If a birther suit ever gets to the point of actually requiring any more info from HI, Obama is not going to object. In the meantime you can all pound salt.

  166. avatar
    misha February 21, 2011 at 8:34 pm #

    Sef: In the meantime you can all pound salt.

    Excuse me. That should be “compress NaCl.”

  167. avatar
    Joey February 21, 2011 at 8:39 pm #

    When Dr. Chiyome Fukino testified before the Hawaii Senate Committee on the Judiciary and Government Operations Committee on the Vexatious Requestor Bill she said (and I quote) “…the President posted a copy of his birth certificate on his former campaign web site.”
    Does anyone know if Dr. Fukino’s statement was delivered under oath? If it was, it undercuts another birther claim that none of the statements from Hawaii officials are given in sworn testimony.

  168. avatar
    G February 21, 2011 at 8:49 pm #

    nc1: Nobody is going to persuade me that US government destroyed passport application records for live people without having a specific order for doing so and even in that case it is very likely that a microfiche copy would have been made.

    Of course noone is going to persuade you of anything. You’re mind is made up on your own pre-conceived, yet unsupported conclusions and no reality that doesn’t fit what you want to believe will ever reach you.

  169. avatar
    G February 21, 2011 at 8:52 pm #

    nc1: At any time he can release the full birth registration index – why is he silent.

    Why don’t you contact his office and ask them? Why do you only always complain, yet never take even the simplest actions to get answers for yourself?

  170. avatar
    Greg February 21, 2011 at 9:09 pm #

    1. Fukino’s and Okubo’s statements are most likely based on an unattended birth registration.

    Let’s pretend that’s true. Know what a certificate showing an unattended birth in Hawaii proves?

    A birth in Hawaii!

    Evidence FAIL!

    With that (it’s not true, though) you STILL have to come up with EVIDENCE he was born somewhere else than Hawaii!

    Here’s you, nc1: “You’re honor, sure I hit him with my car, but he said it was blue, but my car is green!”

  171. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 21, 2011 at 9:42 pm #

    nc1: At any time he can release the full birth registration index – why is he silent.

    This reminds me of a story. Back in the 70’s, I had a telephone number that was very similar to that of a local doctor. Sometimes I would get calls meant for the doctor.

    One day a lady called and asked about her lab results. I explained that she had dialed the wrong number and gave her the correct number. She apologized for bothering me, but before hanging up she said: “but could you give me the lab results anyway?”

    Here nc1 is asking us a question best directed to someone else.

  172. avatar
    Joey February 21, 2011 at 10:25 pm #

    The person with statuatory authority to address birth records in Hawaii is the Director of the state Health Department.
    At the current time, that position is vacant. The interim Director, Dr. Neal Palafox was never confirmed by the state Senate and then he resigned/was fired.
    Once a new Health Director is confirmed, perhaps we’ll get more action from Hawaii. The previous Republican administration had political reasons to not want to assist Obama too much.

  173. avatar
    misha February 21, 2011 at 11:22 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Back in the 70′s, I had a telephone number that was very similar to that of a local doctor. Sometimes I would get calls meant for the doctor.

    True story: One optometrist I worked for had a number one digit different from a popular restaurant. I used to answer the ‘phone “good afternoon. Thank you for calling…” Before I could say the rest, they would say “I’d like to make a reservation.”

    So I would make reservations. “Party of four at 6? See you then.”

  174. avatar
    nc1 February 22, 2011 at 3:14 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: This reminds me of a story. Back in the 70′s, I had a telephone number that was very similar to that of a local doctor. Sometimes I would get calls meant for the doctor.

    One day a lady called and asked about her lab results. I explained that she had dialed the wrong number and gave her the correct number. She apologized for bothering me, but before hanging up she said: “but could you give me the lab results anyway?”

    Here nc1 is asking us a question best directed to someone else.

    You advertise this blog as a one-stop place for addressing birthplace conspiracy theories. The following question should be easy for you to answer:

    Is it true that Hawaii law allows Abercrombie to release the complete Obama’s birth registration index without asking for anybody’s permission?

  175. avatar
    nc1 February 22, 2011 at 3:24 am #

    Greg: Let’s pretend that’s true. Know what a certificate showing an unattended birth in Hawaii proves?

    A birth in Hawaii!

    Evidence FAIL!

    With that (it’s not true, though) you STILL have to come up with EVIDENCE he was born somewhere else than Hawaii!

    Here’s you, nc1: “You’re honor, sure I hit him with my car, but he said it was blue, but my car is green!”

    ===================================================================

    Wrong conclusion: If the birth registration turned out to be for unattended birth, the only thing proven would be a lie told by the Obama campaign (Kapiolani birth).

    One would still have to examine evidence (passport records for Obama’s mother) to check whether the unattended birth is based on a fact or another lie.

  176. avatar
    obsolete February 22, 2011 at 4:21 am #

    nc1: Is it true that Hawaii law allows Abercrombie to release the complete Obama’s birth registration index without asking for anybody’s permission?

    Why would Hawaii have ANY birth index data on Obama unless he was born there?

    nc1: Wrong conclusion: If the birth registration turned out to be for unattended birth, the only thing proven would be a lie told by the Obama campaign (Kapiolani birth).

    What if Obama was lied to as well all these years? Why do you assume it has to be something bad that Obama did, everytime?
    You’ve been asked this before, but never answer. I’m left to wonder what is it that makes this President different in that you refuse to give him the benefit of the doubt?

  177. avatar
    The Magic M February 22, 2011 at 6:06 am #

    > Why would Hawaii have ANY birth index data on Obama unless he was born there?

    It’s been “invented fact” since day 1 for the birthers. Since some foreign-born people have a Hawaiian COLB (not stating a Hawaiian birthplace of course), birthers assume that Hawaii simply merges any foreign birth information into their data as if the baby had been born on the islands.
    Or that, for example, if an immigrant’s baby was born in Japan, Hawaii would keep the original Japanese BC in their archives for the baby.
    Not that there is any factual base to this allegation, but it helps them twist statements into their opposite (e.g. by claiming that when the Hawaiian DoH said “we have Obama’s original birth certificate on file”, they “intentionally” did not say it’s a Hawaiian BC, so it might very well be a Kenyan BC).

  178. avatar
    Greg February 22, 2011 at 6:41 am #

    Is it true that Hawaii law allows Abercrombie to release the complete Obama’s birth registration index without asking for anybody’s permission?

    1. Is he the Director of the Department of Health?
    2. Have you asked the governor’s office if they considered releasing the info?
    3. Why don’t you hire a Hawaiian administrative law expert and sue the state already?! We don’t believe you’re interpreting Hawaiian law correctly and repeating the same thing over and over isn’t going to convince anyone!

  179. avatar
    Greg February 22, 2011 at 7:01 am #

    One would still have to examine evidence (passport records for Obama’s mother) to check whether the unattended birth is based on a fact or another lie.

    Sue the Kapiolani Foundation already! They published a letter from Obama that they knew, or should have known, was false. All you need to do is find someone who gave to the charity. Bam! Standing!

    Now, if you had ANY evidence Obama was born somewhere else, you could bring this lawsuit today. Without that evidence, you fail to carry your burden to plead fraud with particularity.

    If there were a single lawyer in your midst worth the title, he/she would be pursuing real evidence along those lines instead of holding your breath and stamping your feet that the government isn’t giving you what you want, when you want it!

  180. avatar
    Northland10 February 22, 2011 at 7:42 am #

    nc1: This is not a complicated issue. At least it should not have been for a person claiming birth on USA soil.

    And it should not be a complicated issue for those who believe he was born elsewhere. Even if you see discrepancies, you still need to provide evidence he was born somewhere else (unless he just dropped from the sky). But, since birthers like to repeat the same thing over and over again, I might as well prove that I can play the same game:

    Where was he born? What evidence do you have he was born elsewhere?

    It is really that simple.

  181. avatar
    Stanislaw February 22, 2011 at 10:04 am #

    Northland10: And it should not be a complicated issue for those who believe he was born elsewhere. Even if you see discrepancies, you still need to provide evidence he was born somewhere else (unless he just dropped from the sky).But, since birthers like to repeat the same thing over and over again, I might as well prove that I can play the same game:

    Where was he born?What evidence do you have he was born elsewhere?

    It is really that simple.

    Feed the trolls at your own risk.

  182. avatar
    gorefan February 22, 2011 at 12:17 pm #

    misha: So I would make reservations. “Party of four at 6? See you then.”

    That reminded me of something I read years ago. Walter Cronkite would tell a story about someone in New York who looked just like him. People would go up to the look-a-like and ask if he was Walter Cronkite. And the look-a-like would answer “Yes I am. Now f*ck off.”

  183. avatar
    Black Lion February 22, 2011 at 12:32 pm #

    From OFGS…Possibly a bit of satire?

    A Night Which Will Live In Infamy

    It started with a girl, but it wouldn’t end that way. He, Lucas Smith’s latest tall tale is one for the books and that’s probably where this is headed.

    At the present moment, for legal reasons, I will not say exactly what happened inside of the house on the night of the 7th of December.

    You’ll have to read the book.

    But he tells us, on December 7, 2010, there came a soft tap, tap, tapping on his Cedar Rapids door:

    I didn’t think much of the knocks because over the summer and late fall of 2010 I’d experienced the same sort of soft knocks which turned out to be a young girl (about 21 years old) that liked me. I’d never seen the girl in the past but I could tell that she was one of the many Chicago people that have been pouring into Cedar Rapids since the mid 1990′s. The girl would knock softly on my door at night and then she would scamper, or run? nimbly, off.

    But it wasn’t her! Rendition agents, on this dark night, gained entry. Lucas ran! He hid in the closed-off air shaft of a nearby tenement, and when he returned to his house, six days later–let’s not even think about what he could have been drinking over the days and nights in a closed air shaft–”to gather clothing, important paperwork, some electronics devices and other items,” he safely stole away. But then:

    Sometime on, I believe, the 14th or 15th of December 2010 I again returned to my house on 5th Avenue to gather other items. I remember that I was in my house one moment and then the next moment I was waking up in what appeared to be a jail cell or prison cell. Some white men speaking American English kept coming into to? see me in the cell. They told me that I was in Mexico and that I would never leave unless I told them everything about what happened at the hospital in Kenya and whether or not I was in working as a team with certain people in Kenya.

    Either he spilled the beans or they were very nice rendition agents:

    From some point in mid December? thru on or about Christmas Eve (12.24.2010) I was held in Mexico against my will. Upon release (or dump) I managed to travel a distance (much on foot) in a northerly direction until I reach the US Border.

    That fence is truly useless.

    But the rendition agents were not too nice:

    While in Mexico against my will I was interrogated on a round the clock basis and bombarded with questions regarding the hospital in Mombasa, Kenya and questions regarding the hospital’s staff. At times my arm was pumped intravenously with some sort of solution and at times I was in a state of semi consciousness.

    Where, oh where, is FKBC2, the second Fake Kenyan Birth Certificate now? Surely not all this time in a storage locker at the Miami airport, under the watchful eye of Homeland Security.

    http://ohforgoodnesssake.com/?p=16567

  184. avatar
    Sef February 22, 2011 at 1:06 pm #

    Black Lion:
    From OFGS…Possibly a bit of satire?

    A Night Which Will Live In Infamy

    It started with a girl, but it wouldn’t end that way. He, Lucas Smith’s latest tall tale is one for the books and that’s probably where this is headed.

    At the present moment, for legal reasons, I will not say exactly what happened inside of the house on the night of the 7th of December.

    You’ll have to read the book.

    But he tells us, on December 7, 2010, there came a soft tap, tap, tapping on his Cedar Rapids door:

    I didn’t think much of the knocks because over the summer and late fall of 2010 I’d experienced the same sort of soft knocks which turned out to be a young girl (about 21 years old) that liked me. I’d never seen the girl in the past but I could tell that she was one of the many Chicago people that have been pouring into Cedar Rapids since the mid 1990′s. The girl would knock softly on my door at night and then she would scamper, or run? nimbly, off.

    But it wasn’t her! Rendition agents, on this dark night, gained entry. Lucas ran! He hid in the closed-off air shaft of a nearby tenement, and when he returned to his house, six days later–let’s not even think about what he could have been drinking over the days and nights in a closed air shaft–”to gather clothing, important paperwork, some electronics devices and other items,” he safely stole away. But then:

    Sometime on, I believe, the 14th or 15th of December 2010 I again returned to my house on 5th Avenue to gather other items. I remember that I was in my house one moment and then the next moment I was waking up in what appeared to be a jail cell or prison cell. Some white men speaking American English kept coming into to? see me in the cell. They told me that I was in Mexico and that I would never leave unless I told them everything about what happened at the hospital in Kenya and whether or not I was in working as a team with certain people in Kenya.

    Either he spilled the beans or they were very nice rendition agents:

    From some point in mid December? thru on or about Christmas Eve (12.24.2010) I was held in Mexico against my will. Upon release (or dump) I managed to travel a distance (much on foot) in a northerly direction until I reach the US Border.

    That fence is truly useless.

    But the rendition agents were not too nice:

    While in Mexico against my will I was interrogated on a round the clock basis and bombarded with questions regarding the hospital in Mombasa, Kenya and questions regarding the hospital’s staff. At times my arm was pumped intravenously with some sort of solution and at times I was in a state of semi consciousness.

    Where, oh where, is FKBC2, the second Fake Kenyan Birth Certificate now? Surely not all this time in a storage locker at the Miami airport, under the watchful eye of Homeland Security.

    http://ohforgoodnesssake.com/?p=16567

    Oh, for goodness sake!

  185. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 22, 2011 at 1:37 pm #

    Black Lion: From OFGS…Possibly a bit of satire?A Night Which Will Live In InfamyIt started with a girl, but it wouldn’t end that way. He, Lucas Smith’s latest tall tale is one for the books and that’s probably where this is headed.At the present moment, for legal reasons, I will not say exactly what happened inside of the house on the night of the 7th of December.You’ll have to read the book.But he tells us, on December 7, 2010, there came a soft tap, tap, tapping on his Cedar Rapids door:I didn’t think much of the knocks because over the summer and late fall of 2010 I’d experienced the same sort of soft knocks which turned out to be a young girl (about 21 years old) that liked me. I’d never seen the girl in the past but I could tell that she was one of the many Chicago people that have been pouring into Cedar Rapids since the mid 1990′s. The girl would knock softly on my door at night and then she would scamper, or run? nimbly, off.But it wasn’t her! Rendition agents, on this dark night, gained entry. Lucas ran! He hid in the closed-off air shaft of a nearby tenement, and when he returned to his house, six days later–let’s not even think about what he could have been drinking over the days and nights in a closed air shaft–”to gather clothing, important paperwork, some electronics devices and other items,” he safely stole away. But then:Sometime on, I believe, the 14th or 15th of December 2010 I again returned to my house on 5th Avenue to gather other items. I remember that I was in my house one moment and then the next moment I was waking up in what appeared to be a jail cell or prison cell. Some white men speaking American English kept coming into to? see me in the cell. They told me that I was in Mexico and that I would never leave unless I told them everything about what happened at the hospital in Kenya and whether or not I was in working as a team with certain people in Kenya.Either he spilled the beans or they were very nice rendition agents:From some point in mid December? thru on or about Christmas Eve (12.24.2010) I was held in Mexico against my will. Upon release (or dump) I managed to travel a distance (much on foot) in a northerly direction until I reach the US Border.That fence is truly useless.But the rendition agents were not too nice:While in Mexico against my will I was interrogated on a round the clock basis and bombarded with questions regarding the hospital in Mombasa, Kenya and questions regarding the hospital’s staff. At times my arm was pumped intravenously with some sort of solution and at times I was in a state of semi consciousness. Where, oh where, is FKBC2, the second Fake Kenyan Birth Certificate now? Surely not all this time in a storage locker at the Miami airport, under the watchful eye of Homeland Security.http://ohforgoodnesssake.com/?p=16567

    Renditioning in mexico? That’s quite a funny story at least now he could put up a picture and claim he was actually in Mexico as opposed to that picture he put up claiming it was kenya when it was south america.

  186. avatar
    James M February 22, 2011 at 3:02 pm #

    The Magic M: Since some foreign-born people have a Hawaiian COLB

    This is possible, but has any such individual ever been identified?

  187. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP February 22, 2011 at 4:19 pm #

    James M: This is possible, but has any such individual ever been identified?

    As Doc has pointed out in the past, and individual who was born in another country and adopted by a resident of Hawaii can get a Certificate of FOREIGN Birth, not a Certificate of LIVE Birth. President Obama has a Certificate of LIVE Birth, not a Certificate of FOREIGN Birth

  188. avatar
    James M February 22, 2011 at 5:34 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: As Doc has pointed out in the past, and individual who was born in another country and adopted by a resident of Hawaii can get a Certificate of FOREIGN Birth, not a Certificate of LIVE Birth. President Obama has a Certificate of LIVE Birth, not a Certificate of FOREIGN Birth

    I understand this, but even under this constraint, can anyone produce one such certificate? One birther premise is that it’s extremely common, but have they presented a known COFB representing such an individual?

  189. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP February 22, 2011 at 6:13 pm #

    James M: I understand this, but even under this constraint, can anyone produce one such certificate?One birther premise is that it’s extremely common, but have they presented a known COFB representing such an individual?

    Of course they can’t, James. They just assume that anything that might have gone wrong did go wrong until proven otherwise; in other words, they are assbackwards

  190. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 22, 2011 at 9:51 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: As Doc has pointed out in the past, and individual who was born in another country and adopted by a resident of Hawaii can get a Certificate of FOREIGN Birth, not a Certificate of LIVE Birth. President Obama has a Certificate of LIVE Birth, not a Certificate of FOREIGN Birth

    There are two types of “foreign” certificates, the foreign born adoption as Fut described, and an out of state birth which is a registration of a birth outside the state to Hawaiian residents. Both types are common for other states.

    I haven’t seen any documentation as to the form of the second type of certificate, except the obvious points that the certificate will show the actual place of birth, and that it won’t be a “certificate of live birth”.

  191. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP February 22, 2011 at 10:04 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: There are two types of “foreign” certificates, the foreign born adoption as Fut described, and an out of state birth which is a registration of a birth outside the state to Hawaiian residents. Both types are common for other states.

    I haven’t seen any documentation as to the form of the second type of certificate, except the obvious points that the certificate will show the actual place of birth, and that it won’t be a “certificate of live birth”.

    Just a point of clarification, Doc. In the latter case, ie. outside the state of Hawaii, that is for other US states and not foreign states or countries, correctamundo?

  192. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy February 22, 2011 at 11:01 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: Just a point of clarification, Doc. In the latter case, ie. outside the state of Hawaii, that is for other US states and not foreign states or countries, correctamundo?

    Nothing in the Statute says it has to be a state.

    http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm

  193. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) February 22, 2011 at 11:08 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Nothing in the Statute says it has to be a state.

    http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm

    Nothing in the statute also says it has to be a foreign country. Birthers take this as somehow Hawaii is a birth certificate mill for foreign countries

  194. avatar
    The Magic M February 23, 2011 at 4:31 am #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: As Doc has pointed out in the past, and individual who was born in another country and adopted by a resident of Hawaii can get a Certificate of FOREIGN Birth, not a Certificate of LIVE Birth. President Obama has a Certificate of LIVE Birth, not a Certificate of FOREIGN Birth

    My bad, I was mixing those up birther-style. *oops*

  195. avatar
    JoZeppy February 23, 2011 at 10:25 am #

    nc1: Is it true that Hawaii law allows Abercrombie to release the complete Obama’s birth registration index without asking for anybody’s permission?

    No, it is false.