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Spinning Dr. Fukino

Dr. Chiyome Fukino

Until a couple of years ago I daresay none of you, nor I, had ever heard of Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawai’i Department of Health, serving in that position since 2002, appointed by newly elected Republican Governor Linda Lingle. While Dr. Fukino has been honored by her colleagues, she had not made a national name for herself until this Obama conspiracy business came along.

You see, the Department of Health in Hawaii is also the custodian of the State’s vital records and Dr. Fukino had the audacity to cross the birthers. Early on in the birther crusade to discredit Obama’s birth certificate (in October of 2008), Dr. Fukino, along with the head of vital statistics, Dr. Alvin Onaka, made a little expedition to look at the original documents of President Obama’s birth, after which she said:

“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

“No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai‘i.”

Hawaii Dept. of Health web site

I’m sure that Dr. Fukino hadn’t any idea that her statement would be picked and spun to say anything but what it meant, but that’s exactly what happened. The birthers, using a law that did not exist when Obama was born, claimed that his registration was actually that of a foreign born child, and they took as significant the fact that Dr. Fukino didn’t actually say that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.

Using language that I believe expressed frustration as much as information, Dr. Fukino added this terse addendum in July of 2009:

“I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawai‛i State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawai‘i State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawai‘i and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008 over eight months ago.”

Hawaii Dept. of Health web site

That must have been a serious setback to the birthers, but their spin machine continued the old stories and spun out some new ones. They screamed that Fukino went “beyond her authority” to call Obama a “natural born citizen.” They pretended the first statement didn’t exist and claimed that we don’t know what kind of a record Dr. Fukino looked at, ignoring that the first statement explicitly says “original birth certificate.” For example, the Story Reports Comments blog said: “Dr Fukino saw an index record indicating that they had an entry for obama’s [sic] ‘original birth certificate’ in their database. That is what her ‘on record’ comment meant.” Next they took the word “records” (plural) as proof that the certificate was amended. Finally, they continued to claim in the face of this strong statement that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii that his published birth certificate was still a forgery because the Department of Health never verified it. It turns out that Dr. Fukino did indeed comment on it, back in February 23, 2010 in testimony before the Hawaii Senate Committee on Judiciary and Government Operations, saying:

For more than a year, the Department of Health has continued to receive approximately 50 e-mail inquiries a month seeking access to President Barack Obama’s birth certificate in spite of the fact that President Obama has posted a copy of the certificate on his former campaign website. Hawaii is a “closed records” state, meaning that vital records are available on ly to those with a direct and tangible interest as defined by statute; hence they are not subject to disclosure under public records requests.

Here she acknowledges that the image on the Obama web site is a copy of  the birth certificate.

Rather than give up, a conspiracy theorist always expands the conspiracy, putting the messenger of contrary evidence into the framework of the conspiracy. In the case of Dr. Fukino, a YouTube video by former fake document analyst Dr. Ron Polland accuses here of being a criminal. The Post & Email blog headlined: “HI Director of Department of Health Perjures Herself before HI Senate Committee” (the claim of perjury is that the actual number of emails was less than 50 per month). Some say she is a criminal for saying as much as she did, and others that she is a criminal for not saying as much as they want. One commenter at Resistnet.com even went so far as to say:

You can also add Hawaii’s DR.Fukino and Gov. Linda Lingle to that list of treasonous…They better have a good treason lawyer!

It saddens me to see anyone shamefully treated like this.

You birthers had better get used to the fact that the one person in all the world who is officially entrusted with the responsibility to say where Barack Obama was born, says that she personally viewed his original birth certificate, that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii, and that a copy of that certificate is what appears on the Obama campaign web site. Spin all you want–it still comes out the same.

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494 Responses to Spinning Dr. Fukino

  1. avatar
    aarrgghh July 8, 2010 at 4:16 am #

    so how many pieces of silver did fukino give you to post this codswallop?

    </birfer>

  2. avatar
    dp July 8, 2010 at 4:20 am #

    I agree.

    It is a testament to just how vile ideological blinders can make people behave that a basic civil servant is vilified for simply doing her job. Her statements are clear to anyone willing to listen. That’s why there’s really no point in playing along with the pretenders when they express “concern” that the available information may not be complete. It’s complete to anyone willing to process it. Or to anyone being honest.

  3. avatar
    dp July 8, 2010 at 4:23 am #

    aarrgghh: so how many pieces of silver did fukino give you to post this codswallop?</birfer>

    And how ignoble are you in the soul, wretch, to villify a quite likely very decent woman for the pitiful fantasies that pass for ethics and integrity in your life.

  4. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 6:49 am #

    dp:
    And how ignoble are you in the soul, wretch, to villify a quite likely very decent woman for the pitiful fantasies that pass for ethics and integrity in your life.

    Check to see if your sarcasm meter is functioning.

  5. avatar
    James July 8, 2010 at 7:35 am #

    Dr. Fukino is lying:

    “No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawaii.”

    This is definitely a lie by Dr. Fukino.

    I’d like someone to show me where it is standard procedure or practice for a governor of a state to tell the DOH director to look at someone’s birth record and then issue a press release revealing the contents of that record. (Actually another lie. Lingle’s story that Dr. Fukino looked at the record and stated a press release that Obama was born in Hawaii is a lie. It never happen.)

  6. avatar
    James July 8, 2010 at 7:36 am #

    born in a hospital – never happend.

  7. avatar
    Keith July 8, 2010 at 7:40 am #

    James: born in a hospital – never happend.

    Your use-by date is well and truly passed.

    Time to pass the baton to the next moron in the queue.

    Please.

  8. avatar
    kimba July 8, 2010 at 7:53 am #

    They don’t see her as a legitimate authority because Dr Fukino is a woman and she is not white. They think it’s OK to demean, insult and harass her because demeaning and dismissing women and minorities is probably a way of life for them wherever they live in Whitesville USA.

  9. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 8:03 am #

    O/T – Giving Orly some lip:

    http://modblog.bmezine.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/orly.jpg

  10. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 9:00 am #

    I don’t even know why I am bothering with this. A blogger who many are familiar with named Miss Tickley documented by e-mail exchanges a change in terminology from birth certificate to vital records when questioned about an amended certifcate. [This is a sketchy account of the details but it has likely been discussed already, as has most every thread topic.] Miss Tickley went on a strange path afterwards, but that doesn’t change the existence of the e-mails she publicized and the statement released by Fukino in this timeframe (with the vital statistics term). I am not arguing that there is an amended certificate, just showing a pattern of behavior for Fukino.

    For me, that alone doesn’t equate to proof of ineligibility at all, but Fukino’s careful crafting of statements. The DoH was asked by blogger Phil at The Right Side of Life whether a receipt exists to show that Obama requested a COLB, no answer was going to be provided because of privacy issues. From the archives of TRSoL:

    **Unfortunately, the FactCheck.org article never cites exactly who did the procuring of the certification of live birth, and, hence, producing a record of such a transaction. After all, would it not be far easier to establish credibility of the document by showing a receipt of the transaction having occrred (considering that the State doesn’t pull records without payment)? This would, at the very least, provide some basis to consider the potential genuineness of the document.

    Therefore, I decided to correspond with the folks in Hawaii to see if such a transaction was public information and could be known to have occurred. I sent an email to vr-info@doh.hawaii.gov, asking the following on July 2, 2009:

    To Whom It May Concern,

    I am writing to you today to find out information regarding the transaction that occurred on or about June 6, 2007 to procure Mr. Obama’s certification of live birth. Through much of the Internet-based discussion on his alleged ineligibility for the office of the presidency, I was not able to locate any information on the official transaction that produced the COLB.

    Is this information publicly available? If yes, what is the process by which I would need to go about obtaining this information? Is there a form that I would need to submit to retrieve this information?

    I am only interested in the details of the transaction concerning whomever requested Mr. Obama’s certification of live birth.

    Thank you ahead of time for any information that you can provide.

    Sincerely,

    -Phil
    Concerned Citizen from the great State of Georgia

    To which I received the following response later the same day:

    This is not public information.

    Aloha,

    kd

    Vital Statistics
    Office of Health Status Monitoring
    Hawai’i Department of Health
    1250 Punchbowl Street
    Honolulu, HI 96813**

    Okay, but Governor Lingle (who never claimed to have seen the birth certificate herself) revealed more sensitive information than what Phil was requesting. Inconsistency. If giving data index information can lead to verification of what is on the COLB (private information), why release that?

    Contrary to the topic of a thread a few weeks ago that generated a list of people who must have been involved in a conspiracy (which also generated the requisite guffaws), there is a very short list of people who have actually seen the birth certificate (Obama, Fukino), a couple of people who are shown holding a COLB (fact-check people who for some reason took stills instead of a video), and Gibbs who claims “”I’ve seen the real birth certificate. I put it on the Internet,” Gibbs shot back.

    Let the flurry of comments begin to bring up that count.

  11. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 9:08 am #

    kimba: They don’t see her as a legitimate authority because Dr Fukino is a woman andshe is not white.They think it’s OK to demean, insult and harass her because demeaning and dismissing women and minorities is probably a way of life for them wherever they live in Whitesville USA.

    Keep promoting the hatred and this is what you end up with.

    http://ironicsurrealism.blogivists.com/2010/07/06/new-black-panther-king-samir-shabazz-youre-going-to-have-to-kill-some-crackers-youre-going-to-have-to-kill-their-babies-video-transcript/

  12. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 9:09 am #

    charo: I don’t even know why I am bothering with this.A blogger who many are familiar with named Miss Tickley documented by e-mail exchanges a change in terminology from birth certificate to vital records when questioned about an amended certifcate.

    I screwed up my thought but I think you get the point.

  13. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 9:12 am #

    charo: Keep promoting the hatred and this is what you end up with. http://ironicsurrealism.blogivists.com/2010/07/06/new-black-panther-king-samir-shabazz-youre-going-to-have-to-kill-some-crackers-youre-going-to-have-to-kill-their-babies-video-transcript/

    Ah yes the fringe new black panther party which has nothing to do with the actual black panther party. But lets not forget Roy Warden
    http://crooksandliars.com/media/play/wmv/17451/

    The well known latino hating right wing racist

  14. avatar
    Fred July 8, 2010 at 9:18 am #

    Everybody is missing the point! It doesn’t matter whether Hawaii has records, or Kenya has records, or whatever.

    A huge conspiracy and coverup has taken place here.

    Obama is a Martian, a leftover remnant from Roswell and area 51. He is the result of an experiment gone awry.

    You don’t believe me? Look at his ears, his eyes or the gait of his stride as he walks toward the podium. He says whatever the teleprompter instructs him to say. He has no history – no papers, no documents, no records, no track record, etc.

    He was sent to earth in 1947 on a mission to weaken the defenses of earth’s inhabitants in advance of the final attack – which will occur in 2012.

  15. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 9:23 am #

    He must be a birther. I’ll have to consult my required birther manual which has an index of people to be revered.

  16. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 9:24 am #

    charo: He must be a birther.I’ll have to consult my required birther manual which has an index of people to be revered.

    That was to Fred.

  17. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 9:25 am #

    charo: That was to Fred.

    Duh, That was not to Fred but to Bob Ross.

  18. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 9:26 am #

    charo: Duh, That was not to Fred but to Bob Ross.

    Are you talking to yourself charo?

  19. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 9:30 am #

    No, I made a correction to my comment by using the quote function. But birthers do talk to themselves to hear what they want. That is a well established fact.

  20. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 9:31 am #

    charo: No, I made a correction to my comment by using the quote function. But birthers do talk to themselves to hear what they want. That is a well established fact.

    So which part were you directing at me?

  21. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 9:33 am #

    Birthers only wear white clothes, too. So the season of summer often leads to confusion of birther mis-indentification.

  22. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 9:34 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    So which part were you directing at me?

    He [Ray Warden] must be a birther.I’ll have to consult my required birther manual which has an index of people to be revered.

  23. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 9:37 am #

    charo: He [Ray Warden] must be a birther.I’ll have to consult my required birther manual which has an index of people to be revered.

    So why’d you get confused with Fred? Well I brought up Warden in response to your new black panther nonsense

  24. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 9:42 am #

    I responded to you after your comment but Fred in the meantime had a comment that posted and I looked at his name…. actually, it is part of a plot but I can’t remember what it is. It’ll come to me after I drink my daily birther koolaid.

  25. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 9:52 am #

    AH yes, coherent thought. So it is fair to call birthers racists as is done here daily (but some, not all) because of poor examples? I pointed out that by continuing fanning the racist flames, that video is the result. Complete ugliness. Your point was to associate Warden with the “right.” I never associated that video with anyone.

    But I am just a birther who has defective faculties. Once I acknowledged my state in life, complete freedom.

  26. avatar
    ellid July 8, 2010 at 9:55 am #

    As James and others yet again prove that they’re idiots….

  27. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 9:58 am #

    Just in case you forgot.

  28. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 10:00 am #

    Actually, ellid, that is the purpose of this site: birthers are idiots. So, why should you be surprised when you are obliged?

  29. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 10:20 am #

    charo: I responded to you after your comment but Fred in the meantime had a comment that posted and I looked at his name…. actually, it is part of a plot but I can’t remember what it is.It’ll come to me after I drink my daily birther koolaid.

    Congratulations for admitting you have a serious problem. Maybe you can get medical help?

  30. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 10:49 am #

    charo: AH yes, coherent thought. So it is fair to call birthers racists as is done here daily (but some, not all) because of poor examples? I pointed out that by continuing fanning the racist flames, that video is the result. Complete ugliness. Your point was to associate Warden with the “right.” I never associated that video with anyone.But I am just a birther who has defective faculties. Once I acknowledged my state in life, complete freedom.

    Really now? You associated that video with the poster you were responding to. It is fair to call birthers racists the whole point of the birther movement is to make Obama seem foreign, unlike the rest of us which is the reason a lot of people give for why they don’t ask about other president’s birth certificates but only Obama’s. I didn’t have to associate Warden with the right, Warden is a right winger.

  31. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 10:53 am #

    charo: AH yes, coherent thought.So it is fair to call birthers racists as is done here daily (but some, not all) because of poor examples? I pointed out that by continuing fanning the racist flames, that video is the result.Complete ugliness.Your point was to associate Warden with the “right.”I never associated that video with anyone.But I am just a birther who has defective faculties.Once I acknowledged my state in life, complete freedom.

    Blatant racists and bigots should always be exposed for their fear mongering and despicable hatred. Silence is more dangerous.

  32. avatar
    kimba July 8, 2010 at 10:59 am #

    “Fukino’s careful crafting of statements.”

    One of the birther myths about Fukino’s statements have been that they were “carefully crafted” to mean something other than what they said. Utter Nonsense, Charo. Dr Fukino’s statements were written in clear standard English. Only birthers looking for something deeper in her meeting parsed her statements to mean something other than what she meant. Just like you try to make something out of Hawaii not answering Phil.
    Read Hawaiian law, again. The law restricts the Dept of Health from releasing vital records information except to those who have a direct and tangible interest in the record.

    Go here, and I am certain you’ve been referred to it many, many times, and you will find a list of those who qualify as having a direct and tangible interest in any individual’s vital records.
    http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0018.htm
    If you read these honestly, you will understand that RSOL Phil and all the birthers who wrote to Hawaii wanting Pres Obama’s birth certificate have no legal right to it. In fact, they were all trying to get Hawaii Dept of Health to break its own laws. Trying to play clever and make the argument that not answering Phil “means” something is juvenile. If you don’t like the law in Hawaii, move there and try to change it.

  33. avatar
    kimba July 8, 2010 at 11:09 am #

    “So it is fair to call birthers racists as is done here daily ”

    The objection birthers have to Barack Obama is “Presidenting While Black”. No excuse given thusfar explains your “concerns” about the circumstances of the President’s birth. Every time you try to ‘splain, you give yourselves away.

  34. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 11:21 am #

    kimba: Only birthers looking for something deeper in her meeting parsed her statements to mean something other than what she meant.

    Birther’s Pedantic and Paranoid Analysis 101: Registrar of Vital Statistics anagrams to Savior’s artistic fat glitters.

    Oooh. Conspiracy.

  35. avatar
    Kbell July 8, 2010 at 11:27 am #

    I agree with you Doc C. these people are the low of the lowest. The thing that really perplexes me Is that Dr. Fukino and Lingle are both Republicans.

    Which reminds me of a Post&Fail letter writer who was calling for the military to arrest Pres. Obama. One of his statement of evidence is the fraud of a Hawaii COLB that the Democratic admin. of Hawaii was supporting. All I could think was WTF????

    It’s like if dones not match their view change it or ignore it.

    Must be really hard to live like that

  36. avatar
    Passerby July 8, 2010 at 11:28 am #

    Fred: Obama is a Martian, a leftover remnant from Roswell and area 51. He is the result of an experiment gone awry.

    You don’t believe me? Look at his ears, his eyes or the gait of his stride as he walks toward the podium. He says whatever the teleprompter instructs him to say. He has no history – no papers, no documents, no records, no track record, etc.

    He was sent to earth in 1947 on a mission to weaken the defenses of earth’s inhabitants in advance of the final attack – which will occur in 2012.

    You know what the sad thing is here? I can’t tell if you’re joking or not.

    Probably so. But while you might think this is so ridiculous that everyone could see it’s a parody, I’ve seen things just as ridiculous asserted in all seriousness. Just about everyone here has, most likely.

    Nah, it’s probably parody.

    But maybe not.
    \
    I hate the internet sometimes.

  37. avatar
    Passerby July 8, 2010 at 11:42 am #

    charo: Actually, ellid, that is the purpose of this site:birthers are idiots.So, why should you be surprised when you are obliged?

    I think this is really unfair of you. From what I’ve seen of your comments, you seem to be a pretty fair person, so I hope this is just momentary frustration talking.

    I don’t thing “birthers are idiots” is what the site is about. This is Dr. Conspiracy’s site, and I certainly don’t think that his point in having it is to say birthers are idiots. If anything, it seems to me to be the opposite. The premise of the site is that people can be convinced by putting factual information and good arguments out there. If he just wanted to call birthers idiots, he wouldn’t have to bother with that. He could just say that.

    I agree that people are sometimes a little too quick to assume that racism must be behind a birther’s doubts. I think that some birthers are undoubtedly racists. For a larger group of them, racism, or nativism, is part of the mix of motivations–none of us ever do what we do for just a single reason, there’s always more than one thing going on. For others, I really think it has more to do with just not liking him because he’s a Democrat or because he’s more liberal than they like, and they’re reaching out to an argument that’s available that ties into that dislike. Some people are just all-out crazy. And some are just confused by all the conflicting information out there, and haven’t gotten the hang of distinguishing good sources from bad.

    So, yeah, I think that the birthers are wrong. But they’re not really any more prone to stupidity or illogic than a lot of other people, including some of Obama’s supporters. It’s just human nature to more readily believe things that fit in with our own desires, and birthers are human.

    Eh, I’m not even sure what my point was …..

  38. avatar
    Lupin July 8, 2010 at 11:50 am #

    charo: So it is fair to call birthers racists as is done here daily

    I will apologize to any birther that can prove that he or she similarly questioned the birth particulars of any white officials before Obama became a candidate.

    Racism (or more accurately xenophobia) is the fuel that keeps the birther movement alive.

  39. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 11:56 am #

    kimba: f you read these honestly, you will understand that RSOL Phil and all the birthers who wrote to Hawaii wanting Pres Obama’s birth certificate have no legal right to it.

    He never asked for the birth certificate.

  40. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 11:57 am #

    Passerby: Eh, I’m not even sure what my point was …..

    I got what you are saying, and it was said in a decent way.

    Passerby: This is Dr. Conspiracy’s site, and I certainly don’t think that his point in having it is to say birthers are idiots. I

    The title of some of his threads seem to indicate otherwise.

  41. avatar
    Lupin July 8, 2010 at 11:59 am #

    Passerby: I agree that people are sometimes a little too quick to assume that racism must be behind a birther’s doubts. I think that some birthers are undoubtedly racists. For a larger group of them, racism, or nativism, is part of the mix of motivations–none of us ever do what we do for just a single reason, there’s always more than one thing going on. For others, I really think it has more to do with just not liking him because he’s a Democrat or because he’s more liberal than they like, and they’re reaching out to an argument that’s available that ties into that dislike. Some people are just all-out crazy. And some are just confused by all the conflicting information out there, and haven’t gotten the hang of distinguishing good sources from bad.

    You’re being very nice, but at some point Occam’s razor comes into play.

    Yes, there are people who opposes Obama because of what they (wrongly) perceive as his Marxist policies, and they have a record of opposing the Federal Government, e.g.: right wing militia, etc.

    It is not just the opposition to Obama, no matter how crazy, that makes a birther; it is the reliance on a delusional set of hypotheses that challenge his legitimacy.That is the racist core of the birther agenda, quite similar to the KKK’s or the Nativists’ in Arizona.

    I have to add that I used to have some tolerance for far-right, anti-government movements, until I saw them supinely worship GW Bush and passively accept the so-called Patriot Act.

    At that point, I thought they had no principles left whatsoever, their former opposition was a sham, and ultimately they’re nothing but poor whiteys who hate n*gg*rs and jews and sp*cs.

    As I have said in the past, if you want my respect, show me proof of your opposition to the same things you now denounce under Bush.

  42. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 12:00 pm #

    Majority Will: Birther’s Pedantic and Paranoid Analysis 101: Registrar of Vital Statistics anagrams to Savior’s artistic fat glitters.Oooh. Conspiracy.

    See he is trying to push the homosexual agenda! conspiracy!

  43. avatar
    Sef July 8, 2010 at 12:01 pm #

    Majority Will:
    Birther’s Pedantic and Paranoid Analysis 101: Registrar of Vital Statistics anagrams to Savior’s artistic fat glitters.Oooh. Conspiracy.

    MW, are you just terribly good at anagrams or do you have a program to generate these?

  44. avatar
    Sef July 8, 2010 at 12:05 pm #

    Majority Will:
    Birther’s Pedantic and Paranoid Analysis 101: Registrar of Vital Statistics anagrams to Savior’s artistic fat glitters.Oooh. Conspiracy.

    Howsabout “A Statecraft Rig Visitor Lists” (check out http://wordsmith.org/anagram)

  45. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 12:05 pm #

    Lupin:
    I will apologize to any birther that can prove that he or she similarly questioned the birth particulars of any white officials before Obama became a candidate.Racism (or more accurately xenophobia) is the fuel that keeps the birther movement alive.

    I wasn’t alive for most of the past presidents, didn’t care much about the presidency from Reagan through GHWBush, and thought Bush had something to hide about his military records. I thought McCain should have provided his certificate (a COLB would not suffice)..

    I support legislation that would make all candidates show verification of eligibility.

  46. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 12:07 pm #

    kimba: Every time you try to splain,

    Gee, KImba, that’s rather racist of you to make fun of Desi Arnaz.

  47. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 12:12 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Really now? You associated that video with the poster you were responding to.

    My words (to the commenter who referred to Whitesville USA):

    Keep promoting the hatred and this is what you end up with.

  48. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 12:14 pm #

    Sef:
    MW, are you just terribly good at anagrams or do you have a program to generate these?

    I wish! No, but the ‘net has crazy, scary good resources. My choice: http://www.anagramgenius.com/server.html

  49. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 12:16 pm #

    Majority Will:
    Congratulations for admitting you have a serious problem. Maybe you can get medical help?

    Yay me! I better get the medical help now because I think birthers disqualification will be kicking in, unless I could claim a pre-existing condition… have to check with Orly after the paypal hit.

  50. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 12:16 pm #

    Sef:
    Howsabout “A Statecraft Rig Visitor Lists”(check out http://wordsmith.org/anagram)

    Good one!

    Mario Apuzzo anagrams to O! Am our pizza!

  51. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 12:18 pm #

    charo:
    He never asked for the birth certificate.

    How do you know?

  52. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 12:18 pm #

    Lupin: I have to add that I used to have some tolerance for far-right, anti-government movements, until I saw them supinely worship GW Bush and passively accept the so-called Patriot Act.

    The one that President Obama extended?

  53. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 12:20 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    See he is trying to push the homosexual agenda!conspiracy!

    Do ask. Do tell!

  54. avatar
    bob July 8, 2010 at 12:21 pm #

    charo: He never asked for the birth certificate.

    Phil asked to see Obama’s receipt for the COLB.

    Phil has as much right to that I as I do in asking the state to see your receipt for your driver’s license renewal.

  55. avatar
    Passerby July 8, 2010 at 12:21 pm #

    charo: The title of some of his threads seem to indicate otherwise.

    If you’re talking about “birther defects”, I do understand what you mean. Honestly, though, I think he was just going for the easy pun. Some people just can’t resist those. I don’t know what causes it, but it seems to go along with a compulsion to quote Monty Python. I try to make allowances. 😉

  56. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 12:22 pm #

    Majority Will:
    How do you know?

    The communication I quoted above shows what he asked for. Whether he made a request beyond that, he didn’t say, but I trust that he would have said so if he did. See comment at 9:00 a.m.

    (here is the link but you have to scroll for it while trying not to lose your lunch,, knowing your thoughts on the material there)

    http://www.therightsideoflife.com/2009/07/13/certifigate-if-its-not-a-fraud-how-do-we-really-know/

  57. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 12:23 pm #

    charo:
    Yay me!I better get the medical help now because I think birthers disqualification will be kicking in, unless I could claim a pre-existing condition… have to check with Orly after the paypal hit.

    If you’re serious about getting psychiatric help, please take Orly with you.

  58. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 12:24 pm #

    charo: I trust that he would have said so if he did

    ” I trust that he would have said so if he did”

    But you don’t know that. How would you know beyond any doubt everything Phil has ever requested from the State of Hawaii?

  59. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 12:24 pm #

    Passerby:
    If you’re talking about “birther defects”, I do understand what you mean. Honestly, though, I think he was just going for the easy pun. Some people just can’t resist those. I don’t know what causes it, but it seems to go along with a compulsion to quote Monty Python. I try to make allowances.

    It was worth the other comments to have a civil exchange. Have a good day. It’s HOT and pool time is required. I am already half-baked so I’ll probably get the rest of the way in this heat…

  60. avatar
    sfjeff July 8, 2010 at 12:25 pm #

    James: “This is definitely a lie by Dr. Fukino.”

    Oh James- I am sure you must have some solid proof to make such a claim about Dr. Fukino’s honesty- so lets look at your explanation

    “I’d like someone to show me where it is standard procedure or practice for a governor of a state to tell the DOH director to look at someone’s birth record and then issue a press release revealing the contents of that record.”

    Think this through James…..Dr. Fukino’s statement was issued in 2008. When did Governor Lingle make the statement that she had had directed Dr. Fukino to review President Obama’s records? May 2, 2010. Since 2010 is after 2008 James, exactly again how did Dr. Fukino lie?

    “(Actually another lie. Lingle’s story that Dr. Fukino looked at the record and stated a press release that Obama was born in Hawaii is a lie. It never happen.”

    Question James- obviously you made a simple error in your statement there. Any reasonable person would understand that is a simple error. So why do you insist that the Governor lied, when it is clear to any reasonable person that she made an error- an immaterial error- rather than lieing.

    NC1 did this all the time to- insisting that everyone else’s clear errors of statement were lies, but his were just errors, not lies.

  61. avatar
    Passerby July 8, 2010 at 12:27 pm #

    Lupin:

    I want to make an answer to this, but I think it will be long, and I need to think about it first. I don’t think you’re totally wrong, but I don’t think you’re right either. Unfortunately, I don’t have the time–or don’t want to make the time–to do it right now. I will try to return to this, hopefully before this thread goes into internet oblivion.

    Or I’ll just catch it next time it comes up, I guess. Because it surely will.

  62. avatar
    Passerby July 8, 2010 at 12:29 pm #

    charo: It was worth the other comments to have a civil exchange. Have a good day. It’s HOT and pool time is required. I am already half-baked so I’ll probably get the rest of the way in this heat…

    🙂 You have a good one too. I’m off to lunch. Hungry.

  63. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 12:30 pm #

    Majority Will:
    ” I trust that he would have said so if he did” But you don’t know that. How would you know beyond any doubt everything Phil has ever requested from the State of Hawaii?

    That is irrelevant to the point I was making about the transaction receipt.

    (Me quoting from TRSoL)

    charo: Unfortunately, the FactCheck.org article never cites exactly who did the procuring of the certification of live birth, and, hence, producing a record of such a transaction. After all, would it not be far easier to establish credibility of the document by showing a receipt of the transaction having occrred (considering that the State doesn’t pull records without payment)? This would, at the very least, provide some basis to consider the potential genuineness of the document.

    Therefore, I decided to correspond with the folks in Hawaii to see if such a transaction was public information and could be known to have occurred. I sent an email …

  64. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 12:30 pm #

    Passerby: You have a good one too. I’m off to lunch. Hungry.

    Bye!

  65. avatar
    DP July 8, 2010 at 12:34 pm #

    Lupin:
    It is not just the opposition to Obama, no matter how crazy, that makes a birther; it is the reliance on a delusional set of hypotheses that challenge his legitimacy.That is the racist core of the birther agenda, quite similar to the KKK’s or the Nativists’ in Arizona.

    Quite right. It’s what makes people like James feel free to cavalierly indict a simple civil servant for lying when it is obvious to any reasonable person she has done no such thing.

    Based on the accumulated evidence to date, there is simply no rational basis for believing Obama was born anywhere but Hawaii. And once we move into the irrational, it’s patently obvious what one of the elements lurking there is. If people don’t like to face that, maybe they should reexamine some of their own presumptions.

  66. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 12:35 pm #

    bob:
    Phil asked to see Obama’s receipt for the COLB.Phil has as much right to that I as I do in asking the state to see your receipt for your driver’s license renewal.

    And Linda Lingle had no right to disclose what she did- yet she did (her words were based upon hearsay when you read her statement)

    If someone wanted to see my driver’s license renewal receipt, I would gladly release it even though I didn’t have to.

  67. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 12:37 pm #

    Majority Will: Do ask. Do tell!

    Well Will I think the fat glitter is a reference to “bears”

  68. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 12:39 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    Well Will I think the fat glitter is a reference to “bears”

    Or Cameron on Modern Family.

  69. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 12:39 pm #

    charo: The one that President Obama extended?

    How does one have to do with the other? I’m sure Lupin is against the Patriot Act as I am no matter which president supports it

  70. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 12:43 pm #

    charo:
    That is irrelevant to the point I was making about the transaction receipt.(Me quoting from TRSoL)

    You’re lecturing me on irrelevancy? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! ! ! ! !

    WHEW ! ! That was FUNNY ! ! Count the nits in your pile first.

    I was making an inane point about the inanity of specious birther sophism. Thanks for playing. It’s a good day for self-referential contradictions.

  71. avatar
    ellid July 8, 2010 at 12:44 pm #

    charo: Actually, ellid, that is the purpose of this site:birthers are idiots.So, why should you be surprised when you are obliged?

    No, the purpose of this site is to debunk a ridiculous conspiracy theory. If you want sheer mockery, head on over to Badfiction. Otherwise, if you don’t like being ridiculed, then take a good long look at what you’ve been writing.

  72. avatar
    bob July 8, 2010 at 12:46 pm #

    charo: And Linda Lingle had no right to disclose what she did- yet she did (her words were based upon hearsay when you read her statement)

    Holy Topic Shift, Batman!

    Regardless of Lingle’s statements, it is still undisputed Obama was born in Hawaii, and that is sufficient for natural-born citizenry purposes.

    charo: If someone wanted to see my driver’s license renewal receipt, I would gladly release it even though I didn’t have to.

    The point was that Phil asked the State of Hawaii, not Obama. If I asked your home state’s DMV to show me your receipt, I would expect it to tell me to buzz off as well, as I have no interest in your transactions with the DMV.

    But, hey, since you’re offering, let’s see your receipt.

  73. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 12:50 pm #

    bob:
    Holy Topic Shift, Batman!Regardless of Lingle’s statements, it is still undisputed Obama was born in Hawaii, and that is sufficient for natural-born citizenry purposes.
    The point was that Phil asked the State of Hawaii, not Obama.If I asked your home state’s DMV to show me your receipt, I would expect it to tell me to buzz off as well, as I have no interest in your transactions with the DMV.But, hey, since you’re offering, let’s see your receipt.

    And we want the original long form, vault copy DMV receipt! Not some easily forged, certified copy of the DMV receipt.

  74. avatar
    bob July 8, 2010 at 12:52 pm #

    Majority Will: And we want the original long form, vault copy DMV receipt! Not some easily forged, certified copy of the DMV receipt.

    Don’t step on my punchlines!

  75. avatar
    ellid July 8, 2010 at 12:54 pm #

    charo:
    I wasn’t alive for most of the past presidents, didn’t care much about the presidency from Reagan through GHWBush, and thought Bush had something to hide about his military records.I thought McCain should have provided his certificate (a COLB would not suffice)..I support legislation that would make all candidates show verification of eligibility.

    And guess what? PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS ALREADY DONE SO. Almost two years ago, as a matter of fact.

  76. avatar
    ellid July 8, 2010 at 12:57 pm #

    charo:
    The one that President Obama extended?

    The one that George W. Bush signed into law.

  77. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 12:58 pm #

    charo:
    I support legislation that would make all candidates show verification of eligibility.

    What are your standards of proof for verification of eligibility? Are they specific and thorough enough to erase any doubt from any other U.S. citizen’s mind?

  78. avatar
    yguy July 8, 2010 at 1:03 pm #

    the one person in all the world who is officially entrusted with the responsibility to say where Barack Obama was born

    I don’t know where you get the idea Fukino has any such responsibility. She doesn’t have to say word one about his birthplace, other than under the direction of someone legally empowered to compel such testimony. WRT to this controversy, her responsibility is to maintain vital records according to the relevant HI statutes; and it is those records which are authoritative on the question of Obama’s birthplace, not Fukino.

  79. avatar
    bob July 8, 2010 at 1:25 pm #

    yguy: it is those records which are authoritative on the question of Obama’s birthplace

    And those records say Obama was born in Hawaii. End of story.

  80. avatar
    yguy July 8, 2010 at 1:28 pm #

    charo: that is the purpose of this site:birthers are idiots.

    I wouldn’t go that far. Doc C has shown at least a modicum of respect for the truth, even if that can’t be said for 90% of those who post here.

  81. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 1:29 pm #

    bob:
    Holy Topic Shift, Batman!Regardless of Lingle’s statements, it is still undisputed Obama was born in Hawaii, and that is sufficient for natural-born citizenry purposes.
    The point was that Phil asked the State of Hawaii, not Obama.If I asked your home state’s DMV to show me your receipt, I would expect it to tell me to buzz off as well, as I have no interest in your transactions with the DMV.But, hey, since you’re offering, let’s see your receipt.

    I would have no problem with the state disclosing that a receipt exists for the transaction.

  82. avatar
    yguy July 8, 2010 at 1:30 pm #

    bob:
    And those records say Obama was born in Hawaii.

    You don’t know what they say. You know what Fukino says the say.

  83. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 1:31 pm #

    yguy:
    I wouldn’t go that far. Doc C has shown at least a modicum of respect for the truth, even if that can’t be said for 90% of those who post here.

    I am rebelling against the title of his last thread.

  84. avatar
    Sef July 8, 2010 at 1:31 pm #

    yguy:
    I wouldn’t go that far. Doc C has shown at least a modicum of respect for the truth, even if that can’t be said for 90% of those who post here.

    How did you arrive at 90% of those who post here being birthers?

  85. avatar
    bob July 8, 2010 at 1:37 pm #

    charo: I would have no problem with the state disclosing that a receipt exists for the transaction.

    Glad to know you don’t.

    But the state doesn’t operate on your whims.

  86. avatar
    bob July 8, 2010 at 1:38 pm #

    yguy: You don’t know what they say. You know what Fukino says the say.

    The index data is available for public inspection. Please, go inspect and prove that Fukino is a liar.

  87. avatar
    DP July 8, 2010 at 1:39 pm #

    yguy:
    You don’t know what they say. You know what Fukino says the say.

    We know what the state official legally acting as the custodian of those records says.

    We also know what a bunch of blowhards at the end of the bar say, said blowhards having (1) no official capacity, (2) no first-hand knowledge of anything, and (3) an ax to grind.

    Sane people know which of those two possible sources has any actual meaning.

  88. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 1:49 pm #

    charo:
    I am rebelling against the title of his last thread.

    So, the Jonestown massacre is acceptable for sarcasm and humor but birther defects is not. Got it. Please make of list for us of everything you think is acceptable so we have some official guideline. Thanks in advance.

  89. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 1:54 pm #

    Majority Will:
    So, the Jonestown massacre is acceptable for sarcasm and humor but birther defects is not. Got it. Please make of list for us of everything you think is acceptable so we have some official guideline. Thanks in advance.

    The Jonestown reference was in poor taste. I apologize.

  90. avatar
    Mary Brown July 8, 2010 at 1:55 pm #

    Do you remember the people who belonged to and belong to the flat earth society. Nothing will ever convince them that the earth not flat. Birthers are that way. No document, proof or any other evidence will convince them. State official are lying or went beyond their mandate. It will always be something else. By the way Charo, I would never show anyone proof of any personal information unless they had a legal right to see it. Why? Once that begins the right of privacy begins to dsiappear. We owe proof to legal entities and those entities have boundries. And I am glad they do.

  91. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 1:59 pm #

    charo:
    The Jonestown reference was in poor taste.I apologize.

    Thank you.

  92. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 2:01 pm #

    Mary Brown: Do you remember the people who belonged to and belong to the flat earth society.Nothing will ever convince them that the earth not flat. Birthers are that way.No document, proof or any other evidence will convince them.State official are lying or went beyond their mandate. It will always be something else. By the way Charo, I would never show anyone proof of any personal information unless they had a legal right to see it. Why? Once that begins the right of privacy begins to dsiappear.We owe proof to legal entities and those entities have boundries.And I am glad they do.

    Moving the goalposts and an attitude of absolute entitlement even beyond the Constitution or U.S. laws are classic symptoms of birtherism.

  93. avatar
    Passerby July 8, 2010 at 2:04 pm #

    Majority Will:
    So, the Jonestown massacre is acceptable for sarcasm and humor but birther defects is not. Got it. Please make of list for us of everything you think is acceptable so we have some official guideline. Thanks in advance.

    You don’t see why someone would object to “birther defects”? For real? I do. Now, like I said before, I think he just couldn’t resist the cheap pun, and didn’t really mean anything insulting by it, but I get where charo is coming from here.

    And haven’t you, maybe just once or twice, reacted in an overly snippy or sarcastic manner to something that pissed you off? I don’t think charo deserves this.

    I know I don’t have a real right to say this–and this isn’t just to you–but can’t you guys try to play nice, a little bit? Imagine if someone came here looking for actual info or good reasoning. There’s plenty of that here, but the tone of some of the comments would tend to turn people off to it.

    And yeah, I know that most of the birthers who post here aren’t really looking for information. That doesn’t mean there aren’t people out there who are, who are reading this. Most people won’t comment. Someone who just has questions, and finds what they were looking for, wouldn’t have much reason to post. You’d mostly only hear from people who had a strong reaction. It’s internet self-selection, happens everywhere.

    Yeah, sorry, I know. I don’t mean to lecture, but I just had to say it.

  94. avatar
    yguy July 8, 2010 at 2:07 pm #

    bob:
    The index data is available for public inspection.Please, go inspect and prove that Fukino is a liar.

    I have no reason to prove she is a liar, since I have obviously made no such accusation. Moreover, the only way to prove or disprove such an accusation would be to inspect all birth records pertaining to Obama held by the HI DoH.

  95. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 2:11 pm #

    yguy: I wouldn’t go that far. Doc C has shown at least a modicum of respect for the truth, even if that can’t be said for 90% of those who post here.

    Yep those 10% are the birthers who come in to troll here

  96. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 2:13 pm #

    Mary Brown: Do you remember the people who belonged to and belong to the flat earth society.Nothing will ever convince them that the earth not flat. Birthers are that way.No document, proof or any other evidence will convince them.State official are lying or went beyond their mandate. It will always be something else. By the way Charo, I would never show anyone proof of any personal information unless they had a legal right to see it. Why? Once that begins the right of privacy begins to dsiappear.We owe proof to legal entities and those entities have boundries.And I am glad they do.

    I understand your point, but there are times when privacy is compromised, sometimes by necessity, sometimes by circumstance. I think there should be an eligibility verification law to ascertain the qualifications of candidates. That is a big gap in our election system. Throughout history, opposition research has been done on all candidates, privacy be da*ned. Let’s make it legal for candidates to provide proof of elegibility for the office they aspire to. Legislators can work that out. Courts can test the boundaries. This birther issue has been a fiasco that is not good for our country.

    I really want to get poolside.

  97. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 2:13 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Yep those 10% are the birthers who come in to troll her

    They obviously must have respect for the truth… I think we need to reopen the birther math thread

  98. avatar
    bob July 8, 2010 at 2:13 pm #

    yguy: I have no reason to prove she is a liar, since I have obviously made no such accusation.

    So we’re in agreement that Fukino had said (on behalf of the State of Hawaii) that Obama was born in Hawaii, and there is no basis to doubt her (or Hawaii). Excellent.

    yguy: Moreover, the only way to prove or disprove such an accusation would be to inspect all birth records pertaining to Obama held by the HI DoH.

    At your leisure, please go inspect the index data and report back; that’ll be a good start.

  99. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 2:14 pm #

    Passerby:
    You don’t see why someone would object to “birther defects”? For real? I do. Now, like I said before, I think he just couldn’t resist the cheap pun, and didn’t really mean anything insulting by it, but I get where charo is coming from here.And haven’t you, maybe just once or twice, reacted in an overly snippy or sarcastic manner to something that pissed you off? I don’t think charo deserves this.I know I don’t have a real right to say this–and this isn’t just to you–but can’t you guys try to play nice, a little bit? Imagine if someone came here looking for actual info or good reasoning. There’s plenty of that here, but the tone of some of the comments would tend to turn people off to it.And yeah, I know that most of the birthers who post here aren’t really looking for information. That doesn’t mean there aren’t people out there who are, who are reading this. Most people won’t comment. Someone who just has questions, and finds what they were looking for, wouldn’t have much reason to post. You’d mostly only hear from people who had a strong reaction. It’s internet self-selection, happens everywhere.Yeah, sorry, I know. I don’t mean to lecture, but I just had to say it.

    Thanks for your comment.

  100. avatar
    bob July 8, 2010 at 2:16 pm #

    charo: I think there should be an eligibility verification law to ascertain the qualifications of candidates. That is a big gap in our election system.

    Well, the place to make that happen is in the Legislature. Not in the courts; certainly not on blogs.

    Think about this: Republicans control the Arizona legislature and the governorship. Yet they couldn’t get an “eligibility” bill out of the Arizona senate. Maybe — just maybe — the grown-ups in the Arizona GOP realized how batguano crazy this all is?

  101. avatar
    AnotherBird July 8, 2010 at 2:18 pm #

    yguy:
    I have no reason to prove she is a liar, since I have obviously made no such accusation. Moreover, the only way to prove or disprove such an accusation would be to inspect all birth records pertaining to Obama held by the HI DoH.

    The real issue is that you and others birthers can accept the fact that you are wrong. You guys are more willing to accept the word of a temporary worker in one city that the state official directly in charge of the DoH. Either you believe that she in capacity of her job she is wrong or lying. Which is it? I have no belief that you will answer the question.

  102. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 2:18 pm #

    charo:
    I understand your point, but there are times when privacy is compromised, sometimes by necessity, sometimes by circumstance.I think there should be an eligibility verification law to ascertain the qualifications of candidates.That is a big gap in our election system. Throughout history, opposition research has been done on all candidates, privacy be da*ned. Let’s make it legal for candidates to provide proof of elegibility for the office they aspire to.Legislators can work that out.Courts can test the boundaries.This birther issue has been a fiasco that is not good for our country.I really want to get poolside.

    (Again.) What are your standards of proof for verification of eligibility? Are they specific and thorough enough to erase any doubt from any other U.S. citizen’s mind?

  103. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 2:22 pm #

    bob:
    Well, the place to make that happen is in the Legislature.Not in the courts; certainly not on blogs.Think about this: Republicans control the Arizona legislature and the governorship.Yet they couldn’t get an “eligibility” bill out of the Arizona senate.Maybe — just maybe — the grown-ups in the Arizona GOP realized how batguano crazy this all is?

    I think once Obama is out of office, either because he is not running, loses or wins a second time, whichever event occurs, the issue may be more palatable.

    This is a blog for public comment. It is an opinion board.

  104. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 2:22 pm #

    Majority Will:
    (Again.) What are your standards of proof for verification of eligibility? Are they specific and thorough enough to erase any doubt from any other U.S. citizen’s mind?

    I’ll have to get back to you.

  105. avatar
    charo July 8, 2010 at 2:23 pm #

    My 2:22 comment- if he wins a second election and when that term is over

  106. avatar
    Passerby July 8, 2010 at 2:26 pm #

    charo: I think there should be an eligibility verification law to ascertain the qualifications of candidates

    I don’t have any objection at all to this, in theory. In fact, I think it’s probably a good idea. The sticking point we might have would be the question of what the required documentation should consist of. The COLB that Obama posted–not the image itself, but the document that the image is made of–is legal proof of birth in the United States (and age). Are we talking about more than that, and if so, why? If we’re just talking about requiring candidates to provide a document like that, I’m for it. Or at least not against it.

  107. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 2:26 pm #

    Passerby:
    You don’t see why someone would object to “birther defects”? For real? I do. Now, like I said before, I think he just couldn’t resist the cheap pun, and didn’t really mean anything insulting by it, but I get where charo is coming from here.

    That wasn’t my point. It was about hypocrisy and double standards and charo apologized.

    Re: charo: “The paypal buttons from the various birther sources are being used to set up a fund to purchase the site of Jonestown as headquarters, which Is now available.In-house counsel: fill in the blank.”

    “And haven’t you, maybe just once or twice, reacted in an overly snippy or sarcastic manner to something that pissed you off?”

    Yep. The sarcasm has been extra thick from both sides today.

    charo: Gee, KImba, that’s rather racist of you to make fun of Desi Arnaz.
    charo: But birthers do talk to themselves to hear what they want. That is a well established fact.
    charo: Actually, ellid, that is the purpose of this site: birthers are idiots. So, why should you be surprised when you are obliged?

  108. avatar
    bob July 8, 2010 at 2:28 pm #

    charo: This is a blog for public comment. It is an opinion board.

    May I suggest if you want your desire to become reality, you address your efforts toward those who might be able to actually make it happen?

  109. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 2:28 pm #

    charo:
    I’ll have to get back to you.

    Please do. Evidently, the current offering is not adequate for a small but vocal minority of voters.

  110. avatar
    Passerby July 8, 2010 at 2:32 pm #

    Majority Will: Yep. The sarcasm has been extra thick from both sides today.

    It has. No one’s really innocent here. (Except me of course 🙂 )

    Now let’s all hold hands and sing a song together.

  111. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 2:34 pm #

    Passerby:
    I don’t have any objection at all to this, in theory. In fact, I think it’s probably a good idea. The sticking point we might have would be the question of what the required documentation should consist of. The COLB that Obama posted–not the image itself, but the document that the image is made of–is legal proof of birth in the United States (and age). Are we talking about more than that, and if so, why? If we’re just talking about requiring candidates to provide a document like that, I’m for it. Or at least not against it.

    I seriously doubt it will be an issue if the next President isn’t a mixed race person with a funny, foreign sounding name from a state with a foreign sounding name.

  112. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 2:37 pm #

    Passerby:
    It has. No one’s really innocent here. (Except me of course )Now let’s all hold hands and sing a song together.

    Kumbaya?

  113. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2010 at 3:01 pm #

    charo: This is a blog for public comment. It is an opinion board.

    For purely technical reasons, this blog is not a particularly good opinion board. The comment area was intended to accept criticism and questions about the articles posted and that works well; however, you really can’t start your own topics and that’s a major limitation for using Obama Conspiracy Theories as a discussion forum.

    As I have said before, Politijab.com is the place to be for an open discussion of Obama eligibility issues and birther lawsuits in a forum setting. (You have to log in to see the Obama content; logins are free and easy to get.) Obots outnumber birthers there, but there’s no helping that until birther forums stop censoring content.

  114. avatar
    yguy July 8, 2010 at 3:05 pm #

    bob:
    So we’re in agreement that Fukino had said (on behalf of the State of Hawaii) that Obama was born in Hawaii, and there is no basis to doubt her

    No, we are not. There is reason to doubt Fukino because there is reason to doubt Obama’s probity in this matter, since he has refused to for the original BC what he did for the putative COLB.

    (or Hawaii).

    The State presumably recorded its view of the matter in 1961, and barring compelling evidence to the contrary I am indeed content to let the documentation produced at that time be the last word on the subject.

    At your leisure, please go inspect the index data

    First I need a reason to.

  115. avatar
    bob July 8, 2010 at 3:13 pm #

    yguy: No, we are not. There is reason to doubt Fukino because there is reason to doubt Obama’s probity in this matter, since he has refused to for the original BC what he did for the putative COLB.

    Huh? Because Obama released what Hawaii gave him, Fukino is lying? Third base!

    yguy: The State presumably recorded its view of the matter in 1961, and barring compelling evidence to the contrary I am indeed content to let the documentation produced at that time be the last word on the subject.

    And under Hawaiian law, the COLB is an accurate reflection of those records. (And, really, the long form is a misnomer, it is a longer form — even it isn’t a complete record.)

    yguy: First I need a reason to.

    Well, you seems to have all these doubts about Hawaii and its officials lying….

  116. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2010 at 3:13 pm #

    Passerby: You don’t see why someone would object to “birther defects”? For real? I do. Now, like I said before, I think he just couldn’t resist the cheap pun, and didn’t really mean anything insulting by it, but I get where charo is coming from here.

    It is my desire to use cheap puns and sensational phrases in headlines as often as I can. I do not stigmatize those with birth defects so attributing sinful intent in the choice of words is, in my opinion, strained.

  117. avatar
    ellid July 8, 2010 at 3:14 pm #

    charo:
    I think once Obama is out of office, either because he is not running, loses or wins a second time, whichever event occurs, the issue may be more palatable.This is a blog for public comment.It is an opinion board.

    It’s no more palatable than the old “Hillary Clinton had Vincent Foster killed” lie, or the stories that George W. Bush’s marriage was cracking up during the White House years. It’s a smear, pure and simple, and those are never, ever “palatable.”

  118. avatar
    Sef July 8, 2010 at 3:15 pm #

    yguy: I have no reason to prove she is a liar, since I have obviously made no such accusation. Moreover, the only way to prove or disprove such an accusation would be to inspect all birth records pertaining to Obama held by the HI DoH.

    You folks just don’t get it. The ONLY thing which has to be proven is the birthers’ assertion that there is something wrong with the HI records. And they are the ones who have to prove it. That is the way burden of proof works in our system of justice. So, yes if you do not accept the statements of the HI DOH & the HI Governor you do have to prove that the statements are false. The burden is on you.

  119. avatar
    yguy July 8, 2010 at 3:19 pm #

    Passerby:
    I don’t have any objection at all to this, in theory. In fact, I think it’s probably a good idea. The sticking point we might have would be the question of what the required documentation should consist of. The COLB that Obama posted–not the image itself, but the document that the image is made of–is legal proof of birth in the United States (and age). Are we talking about more than that, and if so, why?

    As far as I’m concerned the original documentation is essential, as it reduces reasonable questions about the probity of vital records officials to a minimum.

    If we’re just talking about requiring candidates to provide a document like that, I’m for it. Or at least not against it.

    Why would you be against requiring the original documents?

  120. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 3:22 pm #

    yguy: There is reason to doubt Fukino because there is reason to doubt Obama’s probity in this matter, since he has refused to for the original BC what he did for the putative COLB.

    What proof do you have that the President has refused? Do you have evidence that the President has stated the original records are to remain sealed? What are your qualifications to doubt the veracity of any authorized U.S. government official and specifically Dr. Fukino?

    (Especially since what the state of Hawaii is legal evidence valid in any U.S. court.)

    I think you and many birthers are confusing refusal with unnecessary.

  121. avatar
    sfjeff July 8, 2010 at 3:25 pm #

    “I seriously doubt it will be an issue if the next President isn’t a mixed race person with”

    While i agree that is the origin of most of the malicious rumor and innuendo about the President, I wouldn’t be surprised in our current semi-xenophobic atmosphere to see other politicians try to prove their ‘patriotism’ by requiring proof of eligiblity.

    But as long as the proof is uniform and reasonable, I don’t see that as a big deal.

  122. avatar
    yguy July 8, 2010 at 3:29 pm #

    bob:
    Huh?Because Obama released what Hawaii gave him,

    Actually the provenance of the putative COLB has not been confirmed by the DoH.

    Fukino is lying?

    You have rather a one track mind.

    And under Hawaiian law, the COLB is an accurate reflection of those records.

    Irrelevant, as when such laws conflict with A2S1C5 it’s obvious which prevails.

  123. avatar
    sfjeff July 8, 2010 at 3:30 pm #

    “Why would you be against requiring the original documents?”

    Taking you at exactly your words- ‘requiring the original documents”- I am against the idea that states or counties or cities should be sending off original documents. The original documents stay in the vault or the record room or whatever. The controlling authority sends out authorized and certified copies. And once you are in the realm of authorized and certified copies, as far as I am concerned any document from that authority that has the appropriate seal(and that is current), should suffice.

    If the original copy says “born in Michigan” and the certified copy says “born in Michigan” then that is an accurate and relevant copy.

  124. avatar
    bob July 8, 2010 at 3:37 pm #

    yguy: Actually the provenance of the putative COLB has not been confirmed by the DoH.

    Uhhh, I think a read an article somewhere that says otherwise.

    yguy: You have rather a one track mind.

    Somewhere, an irony meter explodes.

    yguy: Irrelevant, as when such laws conflict with A2S1C5 it’s obvious which prevails.

    There’s nothing in A2S1C5 that concerns Hawaiian laws about a COLB being legally equivalent (and sufficient).

  125. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 3:37 pm #

    yguy:
    As far as I’m concerned the original documentation is essential, as it reduces reasonable questions about the probity of vital records officials to a minimum.
    Why would you be against requiring the original documents?

    Nonsense. The birther rule book says to always keep the goalposts moving. No evidence will ever satisfy a birther.

  126. avatar
    misha July 8, 2010 at 3:39 pm #

    yguy: Moreover, the only way to prove or disprove such an accusation would be to inspect all birth records pertaining to Obama held by the HI DoH.

    Let us know when you get back from your trip to Honolulu. You do have the address on Punchbowl street, right?

    Or are you just an armchair warrior?

  127. avatar
    Sef July 8, 2010 at 3:39 pm #

    yguy: Why would you be against requiring the original documents?

    yguy, what possible reason can YOU have for not posting here your full real name, address, current photo, age, marital status, employer, income, all your bank account numbers, passwords, your SSN, medical history, photos of the rest of your family, their addresses, etc? Why would you not want to do that?

  128. avatar
    sfjeff July 8, 2010 at 3:40 pm #

    “Actually the provenance of the putative COLB has not been confirmed by the DoH.”

    a) “have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record”
    b) seeking access to President Barack Obama’s birth certificate in spite of the fact that President Obama has posted a copy of the certificate on his former campaign website.

    Fukino says she has seen the original Birth certificate and the Obama campaign has posted a copy of the certificate. Provenance confirmed by DOH

  129. avatar
    yguy July 8, 2010 at 3:42 pm #

    Majority Will:
    What proof do you have that the President has refused? Do you have evidence that the President has stated the original records are to remain sealed?

    He doesn’t have to, as that is their default status by law. He can, however, according to HI law, UNseal the original just as he supposedly did for the COLB; and this he has refused to do.

    What are your qualifications to doubt the veracity of any authorized U.S. government official and specifically Dr. Fukino?

    I don’t need any, obviously.

  130. avatar
    misha July 8, 2010 at 3:42 pm #

    yguy: Why would you be against requiring the original documents?

    OK, start posting here with your real name.

  131. avatar
    jamese777 July 8, 2010 at 3:46 pm #

    yguy: Actually the provenance of the putative COLB has not been confirmed by the DoH.You have rather a one track mind.Irrelevant, as when such laws conflict with A2S1C5 it’s obvious which prevails.

    It seems rather strange then that 70 court adjudications including eight at the United States Supreme Court (Berg v Obama Beverly v FEC, Craig v US, Donofrio v Wells, Beverly v FEC, Herbert v Obama, Lightfoot v Bowen, Schneller v Cortes, and Wrotnowski v. Bysiewicz) have shown no interest in pursuing the Obama eligibility debate.

    In my humble opinion US District Court Judge David O. Carter put it best: “There may very well be a legitimate role for the judiciary to interpret whether the natural born citizen requirement has been satisfied in the case of a presidential candidate who has not already won the election and taken office. However, on the day that President Obama took the presidential oath and was sworn in, he became President of the United States. Any removal of him from the presidency must be accomplished through the Constitution’s mechanisms for the removal of a President, either through impeachment or the succession process set forth in the Twenty-Fifth Amendment. Plaintiffs attempt to subvert this grant of power to Congress by convincing the Court that it should disregard the constitutional procedures in place for the removal of a sitting president. The process for removal of a sitting president–removal for any reason–is within the province of Congress, not the courts.”—US District Court Judge David O. Carter in dismissing “Captain Pamela Barnett, et. al. v Barack H. Obama, et. al.,” October 29, 2009

  132. avatar
    bob July 8, 2010 at 3:56 pm #

    yguy: Actually the provenance of the putative COLB has not been confirmed by the DoH.

    Have you read the article you’re commenting on?

    yguy: You have rather a one track mind.

    Somewhere, an irony meter explodes.

    yguy: Irrelevant, as when such laws conflict with A2S1C5 it’s obvious which prevails.

    There’s nothing in A2S1C5 that concerns Hawaiian laws about a COLB being legally equivalent (and sufficient).

  133. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 3:59 pm #

    yguy:
    He doesn’t have to, as that is their default status by law. He can, however, according to HI law, UNseal the original just as he supposedly did for the COLB; and this he has refused to do.
    I don’t need any, obviously.

    “and this he has refused to do.”

    Again. Where’s your proof that the President has refused. Do you know what refused means? I don’t think you do.

    Birther: Show your original documents.
    Obama: No.

    That’s a refusal. Where’s your proof that the President refused? He also hasn’t made back flips down Pennsylvania Avenue. Is that a refusal? Of course not.

    And your assertion that Fukino’s authority must be doubted based on a fictional refusal is ludicrous at best. Since you admittedly have no authority, I’ll stick with the state of Hawaii and the respect of U.S. law.

  134. avatar
    Sef July 8, 2010 at 3:59 pm #

    yguy: Irrelevant, as when such laws conflict with A2S1C5 it’s obvious which prevails.

    I see that yguy is attempting to bring up the 2 CP “requirement” FAIL!

  135. avatar
    Rickey July 8, 2010 at 3:59 pm #

    charo:
    He never asked for the birth certificate.

    He was asking for information which is protected by Hawaii’s privacy laws.

    I last ordered a copy of my birth certificate from New York in 1988. If you write to the New York Department of Health and ask for a receipt for the birth certificate which was issued to me on June 2, 1988, what do you suppose the response would be? It would be along the lines of, “This is not public information.”

  136. avatar
    yguy July 8, 2010 at 4:18 pm #

    bob:

    yguy: Actually the provenance of the putative COLB has not been confirmed by the DoH.

    Have you read the article you’re commenting on?

    Not thoroughly, but what I said is accurate regardless.

  137. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 4:21 pm #

    yguy:
    Have you read the article you’re commenting on?

    Not thoroughly, but what I said is accurate regardless.

    Like most of what you’ve said, it’s irrelevant sophism.

  138. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 8, 2010 at 4:25 pm #

    yguy: He can, however, according to HI law, UNseal the original just as he supposedly did for the COLB; and this he has refused to do.

    No he can’t. A US President doesn’t have the authority to issue fiats directing state officials to conduct their business in any particular way.

    All Obama could do is authorize the release of his own personal records, but he couldn’t tell the department what form to release. Since they currently only issue COLB’s … all such authorization would do would be to enable people to send $12 to Hawaii to buy their own copy of Obama’s COLB — but obviously that wouldn’t satisfy birthers.

    Given that the Hawaii DOH people actually sought legislation to protect them from the burden of filling multiple requests for the same information – it would be irresponsible for Obama to authorize the release of his personal records — especially when he himself as publicly released the document and made it available for inspection during his campaign — AND Hawaii has posted the birth index information on line on its web site.

  139. avatar
    JoZeppy July 8, 2010 at 4:25 pm #

    yguy: As far as I’m concerned the original documentation is essential, as it reduces reasonable questions about the probity of vital records officials to a minimum.

    But you see, what you consider essential is completely irrelevant. You’re just not special that way. In the reality based world, a COLB is sufficient to prove birth in Hawaii, unless you have actual evidence as to why it should be questioned…and even then, it doesn’t neccessarily disprove the COLB, but is weighted against it to determine what is credible.

    yguy: Why would you be against requiring the original documents?

    Because it is entirely unnecessary, a waste of time, and prevents states from creating more efficient methods of handing public records. The whole point of creating a document, and a process to create that document, that can be labeled prima facie evidence, is to eliminate the need to keep re-proving what is contained on the document.

  140. avatar
    Passerby July 8, 2010 at 4:27 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It is my desire to use cheap puns and sensational phrases in headlines as often as I can. I do not stigmatize those with birth defects so attributing sinful intent in the choice of words is, in my opinion, strained.

    I wasn’t trying to say you were wrong to use the headline. Just that, while I thought charo had misunderstood the intent, I could understand why. Thought people should give her a break is all.

    I wouldn’t have taken it as a stigmatization of those with birth defects–but I could understand taking it as a stigmatization of birthers as people who were defective. Even though I didn’t think that was what you meant either.

    As for puns- ”
    A pun does not commonly justify a blow in return. But if a blow were given for such cause, and death ensued, the jury would be judges both of the facts and of the pun, and might, if the latter were of an aggravated character, return a verdict of justifiable homicide. ~Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr., The Autocrat of the Breakfast-Table, 1858″

    Just kidding 🙂

  141. avatar
    bovril July 8, 2010 at 4:38 pm #

    Oh fun Ygut has returned, something he does usually after getting spanked….again….over at Talk Rational….don’t you Y..?

    Ah, the cloying stench of twist and denial, so refreshing.

    So, Yguy, do tell.

    You want, nay demand to see the mystical long form as you have “issues” with the short one.

    What precisely IS it you expect to see in said form that differs from the posted COLB.

    Please, enquiring minds need to know, you have never ACTUALLY illuminated our darkness with your wisdom in this area, really, I and others need to know.

    What is your requirement, what is it you need to see and will the “long form” suffice.

    No squirming now, simple request, what is or are the elements that would calm your fevered mind.

  142. avatar
    Passerby July 8, 2010 at 4:41 pm #

    yguy: Why would you be against requiring the original documents?

    I’ve never given this much serious thought, but okay. My main issues are practicality and fairness.

    Whatever the requirements are, they should be uniform. I don’t mean necessarily from state to state, but from candidate to candidate. I would not want it left to the discretion of election officials to decide how much proof to require on a case by case basis. I trust that it’s obvious why that would be a problem? So I would want it specified beforehand exactly what information and documentation a candidate has to supply.

    “Original records” or “original documents” is way too vague. Which documents? What part of the original records? Everything that a state might happen to have on file about that person’s birth? What if some states don’t record or catalog exactly the same things in their birth records as other states? Could people from those states not run? It’s just not practical.

  143. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 4:47 pm #

    Passerby:
    So I would want it specified beforehand exactly what information and documentation a candidate has to supply.
    “Original records” or “original documents” is way too vague. Which documents?

    The answer is simple and obvious. The specifics and standards are what “yguy” demands.

  144. avatar
    yguy July 8, 2010 at 5:04 pm #

    Expelliarmus:
    All Obama could do is authorize the release of his own personal records, but he couldn’t tell the department what form to release.

    Yes, he can. HRS §338-13(a) says so, as I’ve tried to explain here many a time.

    Since they currently only issue COLB’s …

    It doesn’t matter what their policy is, as they are bound by HI law to provide a certified copy of the original to a qualified applicant.

  145. avatar
    bob July 8, 2010 at 5:12 pm #

    yguy: Yes, he can. HRS §338-13(a) says so, as I’ve tried to explain here many a time.

    And also as explained here many a time, no one agrees with your reading of § 338-13(a).

  146. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 5:16 pm #

    yguy:
    Yes, he can. HRS §338-13(a) says so, as I’ve tried to explain here many a time.
    It doesn’t matter what their policy is, as they are bound by HI law to provide a certified copy of the original to a qualified applicant.

    Irrelevant and unnecessary.

    HRS §338-13
    (b) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original, subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18.

  147. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 8, 2010 at 5:29 pm #

    Majority Will: Irrelevant and unnecessary.HRS §338-13(b) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original, subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18.

    As explained to Yguy multiple times the Copies mentioned in HRS 338-13 is the COLB

  148. avatar
    ellid July 8, 2010 at 5:33 pm #

    yguy:
    Yes, he can. HRS §338-13(a) says so, as I’ve tried to explain here many a time.
    It doesn’t matter what their policy is, as they are bound by HI law to provide a certified copy of the original to a qualified applicant.

    Already done, years ago.

  149. avatar
    Hawaiiborn July 8, 2010 at 5:35 pm #

    yguy:
    Yes, he can. HRS §338-13(a) says so, as I’ve tried to explain here many a time.
    It doesn’t matter what their policy is, as they are bound by HI law to provide a certified copy of the original to a qualified applicant.

    FALSE 100% . Hawaii provides a COLB which is the ONLY form they provide to Hawaii Resident.s NOWHERE in their law does it say “exact copy”

    Here is the HRS in total:
    §338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.

    (b) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original, subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18.

    (c) Copies may be made by photography, dry copy reproduction, typing, computer printout or other process approved by the director of health. [L 1949, c 327, §17; RL 1955, §57-16; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, §19; HRS §338-13; am L 1978, c 49, §1]

    I’ve put in bold the important part, of which you ignored completely

    CERTIFIED copy and goes on to say : certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.

    GET IT? contents of any certificate, or ANY PART thereof.

    ANY PART?

    GET IT NOW?

  150. avatar
    richCares July 8, 2010 at 5:37 pm #

    “GET IT? contents of any certificate, or ANY PART thereof.
    ANY PART?
    GET IT NOW?”
    .
    No, he don’t get it,birthers got no brains!

  151. avatar
    bob July 8, 2010 at 5:41 pm #

    yguy: Here is the Hawaii Department of Heath’s contact information; perhaps they can it explain it to you.

  152. avatar
    yguy July 8, 2010 at 5:48 pm #

    Passerby:
    I would not want it left to the discretion of election officials to decide how much proof to require on a case by case basis. I trust that it’s obvious why that would be a problem?

    Yes, but I think the equal protection clause and the privileges & immunities clauses pretty well cover that.

    Which documents? What part of the original records? Everything that a state might happen to have on file about that person’s birth?

    Every document that bears exclusively on the eligibility of the candidate.

    What if some states don’t record or catalog exactly the same things in their birth records as other states?

    Then whatever the law requires the state to have should be sufficient.

  153. avatar
    Bill July 8, 2010 at 5:53 pm #

    [§338-14.3] Verification in lieu of a certified copy. (a) Subject to the requirements of section 338-18, the department of health, upon request, shall furnish to any applicant, in lieu of the issuance of a certified copy, a verification of the existence of a certificate and any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event that pertains to the certificate.

    (b) A verification shall be considered for all purposes certification that the vital event did occur and that the facts of the event are as stated by the applicant. [Emphasis Added]

    The DOH does not certify that the birth took place, all they are certifying is that the recording of such an event did occur.

    That is why it is important to know who is on record to have witnessed the birth.

    I don’t think anyone here is stupid enough to think that the State of Hawaii is able to certify that an event, that was not witnessed by them, undoubtedly took place.

  154. avatar
    yguy July 8, 2010 at 5:56 pm #

    bob:
    And also as explained here many a time, no one agrees with your reading of § 338-13(a).

    Actually, one person here went on record as agreeing with my reading of it.

    Guess who. 8)

  155. avatar
    Sef July 8, 2010 at 5:59 pm #

    Passerby: Whatever the requirements are, they should be uniform.

    And the requirements ARE uniform & the same for all candidates. The requirements are listed in the Constitution & no state nor Congress can make additional requirements or define what they mean except via a Constitutional Amendment.

  156. avatar
    yguy July 8, 2010 at 6:00 pm #

    Hawaiiborn:
    FALSE 100% . Hawaii provides a COLB which is the ONLY form they provide to Hawaii Resident.s

    Which is not equivalent to a certified copy of the original that a qualified applicant is entitled to under the statute, obviously, since the original contains more information.

  157. avatar
    Sef July 8, 2010 at 6:04 pm #

    yguy:
    Which is not equivalent to a certified copy of the original that a qualified applicant is entitled to under the statute, obviously, since the original contains more information.

    But there is no information which might be on any other record which is not on the COLB which is relevant to the requirements for (V)POTUS.

  158. avatar
    Hawaiiborn July 8, 2010 at 6:05 pm #

    yguy:
    Which is not equivalent to a certified copy of the original that a qualified applicant is entitled to under the statute, obviously, since the original contains more information.

    Bullocks. Again, stop talking out of your rear end.

    I’m from Hawaii. I’m ONLY entitled to what the STATE of HAWAII is legally allowed to let me have. A CERTIFIED copy as illustrated in the VERY statute you cite, says that its as LEGAL as if it was the original version.

    here it is in case you missed it:

    (b) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original, subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18.

    emphasis mine.

    YOU ignore this VERY passage in the statute.

    For the umpteenth time: the COLB is the ONLY form that the STATE gives out, and the ONLY LEGAL form that will be given out to those who REQUEST a copy of their birth record.

    I, in my life time have now ordered 3 copies of my birth record. THEY all have appeared on the COLB that everyone is so familiar with today. The green form that only lists the pertinent information and VERIFIED by the SUPREME Court as being enough to satisfy all GOVERNMENT needs.

    The pertinent information found on a COLB is ALL the information needed by the US Government to establish citizenship. END of story.

  159. avatar
    bob July 8, 2010 at 6:08 pm #

    yguy: Actually, one person here went on record as agreeing with my reading of it.Guess who.

    Doc, care to clarify?

  160. avatar
    DP July 8, 2010 at 6:10 pm #

    Hawaiiborn: The pertinent information found on a COLB is ALL the information needed by the US Government to establish citizenship. END of story.

    That is the salient point. The COLB is legally equivalent to any original documentaiton for the purpose of documenting birth.

    The fact that some idiot has a bunch of wild fantasies running around in his/her head as to how the original certificate might give some clue to its information having been faked is legally meaningless, entitles them to nothing, and isn’t worth the consideration of serious people.

  161. avatar
    Passerby July 8, 2010 at 6:33 pm #

    Sef:
    And the requirements ARE uniform & the same for all candidates.The requirements are listed in the Constitution & no state nor Congress can make additional requirements or define what they mean except via a Constitutional Amendment.

    I might not have been clear. What I meant was that the election authorities should not have the ability to demand extra proof of some candidates in case there are “doubts.” The requirements for eligibility are uniform–I want uniformity in the documentation requirements, in the sense that the documentation required for one candidate would be the same as the documentation required for any other candidate.

    So what should be required? As far as birth records, there are two pieces of information that would/could be relevant for eligibility–date of birth and place of birth. So if a state wanted to pass a law stating that candidates had to provide documentation of those two things, I would have no problem with it. As far as the form, I don’t actually see any reason why a certified statement from the custodian of birth records shouldn’t suffice. A COLB should do the job.

    If a state wanted to require “original” records, my question would be what the purpose of that would be.

  162. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 6:34 pm #

    yguy:
    Which is not equivalent to a certified copy of the original that a qualified applicant is entitled to under the statute, obviously, since the original contains more information.

    Irrelevant and unnecessary.

  163. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP July 8, 2010 at 6:34 pm #

    Hot off the FAUX News forum presses, people. Here’s the latest

    “A private investigator in Hawaii has uncovered the divorce decree for Barack Obama’s father and mother, which indicates they had “one child under the age of eighteen, born in Kenya.” That is the report of Ed Hale of PlainsRadio.com, an Internet radio site which has focused upon the natural born Citizen challenges to Obama’s presidential eligibility.

    Hale announced this during his evening Internet broadcast on PlainsRadio.com, Tuesday, 12/30 and confirmed it with I.O. in an online interview, later that night. He reported that certified copies of this documentation have been sent from Hawaii by the investigator to himself and four others. Hale is to receive his copy Friday, 1/2 and plans to post it graphically on the site, during the day. He will also discuss this on a special Internet broadcast, between 6 pm and 10 pm Central Time, tonight. The site streams audio as soon as it is accessed via Web browser.”

  164. avatar
    jamese777 July 8, 2010 at 6:42 pm #

    Here’s a link to the statement of Janice Okubo, Director of Communications for the Hawaii Department of Health verifying that the ONLY Certified Birth Record that the State of Hawaii issues since they went paperless in 2001 is the short form Certification of Live Birth:
    http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2009/06/21/born-identity-star-bulletin-interviews-janice-okubo/

    As others have mentioned here. There is no additional information on an original LONG FORM Hawaii Birth Certificate that is relevant to the issue of eligibility to be president. Being born in a hospital and being delivered by a physician are not mandated by the Constitution.
    Barack Obama has a certified copy of a Hawaii vital record stating that he was born at 7:24 PM on August 4, 1961 in the City of Honolulu, in the County of Honolulu, on the Island of Oahu, in the state of Hawaii in the United States of America. That is the ONLY proof of presidential eligibility that he will ever be required to show. That information has further been authenticated on two separate occasions by Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawaii Health Department and by Dr. Alvin T. Onaka, Registrar of Vital Records for the State of Hawaii.

    In an irony of ironies, it is much easier to forge a long form, original birth certificate than it is a computer print out short form due to the introduction of “safety paper” about 20 years ago. “Safety Paper” does not allow document alteration much as “new” money is more counterfeit proof than “old” money.

  165. avatar
    yguy July 8, 2010 at 6:43 pm #

    DP:
    That is the salient point. The COLB is legally equivalent to any original documentaiton for the purpose of documenting birth.

    On the contrary, it’s nothing but a transparent attempt to keep alive the myth that HI law doesn’t allow Obama to obtain a copy of the original.

  166. avatar
    jamese777 July 8, 2010 at 6:47 pm #

    On the contrary, it’s nothing but a transparent attempt to keep alive the myth that HI law doesn’t allow Obama to obtain a copy of the original.

    Don’t you think that if Hawaii still issued original birth certificates to ANYONE these days that the internet and the conservative media would be flooded with them? Just to call Obama’s bluff?
    By “certified copy” they mean the short form COLB. ONLY

  167. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 6:49 pm #

    yguy:
    On the contrary, it’s nothing but a transparent attempt to keep alive the myth that HI law doesn’t allow Obama to obtain a copy of the original.

    Irrelevant, erroneous, illogical and unnecessary. You would make as much sense if you were squawking like a parrot.

  168. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP July 8, 2010 at 6:50 pm #

    The real myth is that he has any obligation to prove anything other than he’s a United States citizen, and the only legal document released by the state of Hawaii is proof that he’s a United States citizen. By your theory, we could doubt that every president is not qualified to be president since we can just doubt what’s right before us. If someone questioned Bush’s citizenship, and he posted a copy on the internet, all someone would have to do to claim he’s not eligible is to say, “I don’t believe it; it’s a fake.”

  169. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 6:53 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: If someone questioned Bush’s citizenship, and he posted a copy on the internet, all someone would have to do to claim he’s not eligible is to say, “I don’t believe it; it’s a fake.”

    NOW you tell me! 🙂

  170. avatar
    Sef July 8, 2010 at 6:54 pm #

    jamese777: On the contrary, it’s nothing but a transparent attempt to keep alive the myth that HI law doesn’t allow Obama to obtain a copy of the original.Don’t you think that if Hawaii still issued original birth certificates to ANYONE these days that the internet and the conservative media would be flooded with them? Just to call Obama’s bluff?
    By “certified copy” they mean the short form COLB. ONLY

    None of this long form nonsense would have started if the short forms issued by TX & CA were not deficient for passport requirements, thus requiring a long form from those states.

  171. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP July 8, 2010 at 6:55 pm #

    Majority Will:
    NOW you tell me!

    If we only knew then what we know now. lol

  172. avatar
    bovril July 8, 2010 at 6:56 pm #

    You ain’t getting off Yguy, answer the question, I can keep this up forever, just like a Birfer

    bovril: So, Yguy, do tell.
    You want, nay demand to see the mystical long form as you have “issues” with the short one.
    What precisely IS it you expect to see in said form that differs from the posted COLB.
    Please, enquiring minds need to know, you have never ACTUALLY illuminated our darkness with your wisdom in this area, really, I and others need to know.
    What is your requirement, what is it you need to see and will the “long form” suffice.
    No squirming now, simple request, what is or are the elements that would calm your fevered mind.

  173. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 6:58 pm #

    yguy:
    He doesn’t have to, as that is their default status by law. He can, however, according to HI law, UNseal the original just as he supposedly did for the COLB; and this he has refused to do.
    I don’t need any, obviously.

    Where’s your proof the President refused? Refusal is a willful act.
    Your words. Back them up or keep dodging and hiding as usual like a typical birther.

  174. avatar
    yolomann July 8, 2010 at 7:01 pm #

    “…and that a copy of that certificate is what appears on the Obama campaign web site. Spin all you want–it still comes out the same.”

    I don’t recall her saying the one she saw is the same as the one on the campaign website?

  175. avatar
    Gorefan July 8, 2010 at 7:01 pm #

    Hawaiiborn: FALSE 100% . Hawaii provides a COLB which is the ONLY form they provide to Hawaii Resident.s NOWHERE in their law does it say “exact copy”

    This appears to me to be a question of interpretation, yguy seems to reads 338-13 to say the applicant decides whether he/she wants “a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.”

    And, the State of Hawaii interpretes 338-13 to read that they shall provided either “a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.” With the State deciding which of those it will giving out.

  176. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 7:03 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP:
    If we only knew then what we know now. lol

    Or we could have convinced Lichtenstein into giving George citizenship thereby disqualifying him for President according to birther fantasy.

  177. avatar
    yguy July 8, 2010 at 7:07 pm #

    jamese777: Don’t you think that if Hawaii still issued original birth certificates to ANYONE these days that the internet and the conservative media would be flooded with them? Just to call Obama’s bluff?

    The question here is not whether the DoH actually issues them, but whether the law says they must. Why someone born in HI around 1960 hasn’t sued to get one I couldn’t say.

    By “certified copy” they mean the short form COLB. ONLY

    No sane reading of the statute will allow for such an interpretation.

  178. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2010 at 7:13 pm #

    bob: Doc, care to clarify?

    This is, as I understand it, in regard to whether President Obama can obtain a certified photocopy of his original birth certificate from the Hawaii Department of Health or not.

    It is my personal opinion (keep in mind that I am not a lawyer or a Hawaiian official) that §338-13(a) would entitle a person with a tangible interest in a birth certificate (of any kind held by the Hawaii Department of Health) to obtain a certified copy of the contents of that certificate in some form. Whether that means a certified photocopy of the long form or a transcription of it, I wouldn’t guess. This, of course, presumes that the Department of Health retains (and I believe they do) the original birth certificate or a microfilm copy of it.

    I think as a general statement of policy, the Department of Health truthfully says that they no longer issue long form birth certificates. However, there is sometimes a difference in what a government agency routinely does and what they will do when pressed.

    So far, no one has come up with an explanation of why this is incorrect beyond the general policy statement.

  179. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 7:22 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: So far, no one has come up with an explanation of why this is incorrect beyond the general policy statement.

    Or why it’s at all necessary given the legality of §338-13(b) which means COLB and what was provided and satisfies the legal requirement. IMO, random birther curiosity is not a valid reason.

  180. avatar
    DP July 8, 2010 at 7:23 pm #

    yguy:
    On the contrary, it’s nothing but a transparent attempt to keep alive the myth that HI law doesn’t allow Obama to obtain a copy of the original.

    No. If you will read my post, I’m noting that your whole issue is irrelevant (i.e., a red herring). The COLB is legally equivalent to any other record Hawaii has on record for documenting birth. It is all any legal entity needs to see. Your fantasies about the long form and irrational desire to see it are meaningless.

  181. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 7:23 pm #

    yguy:
    The question here is not whether the DoH actually issues them, but whether the law says they must. Why someone born in HI around 1960 hasn’t sued to get one I couldn’t say.
    No sane reading of the statute will allow for such an interpretation.

    Irrelevant and unnecessary.

  182. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2010 at 7:26 pm #

    Bill: The DOH does not certify that the birth took place, all they are certifying is that the recording of such an event did occur. …

    I don’t think anyone here is stupid enough to think that the State of Hawaii is able to certify that an event, that was not witnessed by them, undoubtedly took place.

    Actually, it’s neither of these. The state is certifying that the certified copy of a birth certificate is a true and accurate copy of the original birth certificate. The certification of the birth itself is done by the person who signed the original form. What one can infer from the certified copy is that the original birth certificate was signed by someone in accordance with whatever policies and procedures were operative at the time.

    Folks get hung up on who signed the form. It doesn’t matter who signed the form as long as someone did. And the fact is that according to Hawaiian Law, the certified copy is prima facie evidence of the information it contains. It is not evidence because of the process or who signed it or whether it was a hospital or an unattended home delivery. It is prima facie evidence because the law says so and the United States is a nation of laws, not birthers raising doubts.

  183. avatar
    sfjeff July 8, 2010 at 7:31 pm #

    “…and that a copy of that certificate is what appears on the Obama campaign web site. Spin all you want–it still comes out the same.”

    I don’t recall her saying the one she saw is the same as the one on the campaign website?

    Did you read her statements at the beginning of this thread?

    Statement #1: “have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate
    Statement #2: “in spite of the fact that President Obama has posted a copy of the certificate on his former campaign website.”

    Combine the two statements from Dr. Fukino and she is saying she has seen the original birth certificate and that President Obama has posted a copy of the certificate.

    Note she did not say a copy of a certificate but ‘the’ certificate. So unless Dr. Fukino has been willfully and knowlingly participating in a fraud, by her statement, the copy posted is a copy of the original that she has seen.

    Since the Governor has backed up her statement, I am going with the obvious being correct- that Dr. Fukino is doing her job rather than a coverup.

  184. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP July 8, 2010 at 7:33 pm #

    Frankly, I don’t know why they keep bring up the birth certificate. They say that his dad wasn’t a US citizen and that makes him ineligible to be president. This is information that has been in the public domain for at least a dozen years. The state boards of election knew it when they put him on the ballot. The FEC knew it when they accepted his candidacy. Most of those who voted for him knew it when they voted for him. The Congress knew it when they certified the election. The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States knew it when he swore the president in. Every one of the judges who have heard these cases knew it, including every justice on the Supreme Court. Anyone who can do a google search can find it out and can access millions of links that say it. So, if they already have the proof they claim they need that he’s not eligible, why spend years splitting hairs about the birth certificate? Of course, when they write their representatives in Congress saying this, they get a letter back saying that the president is, in fact, eligible to be president regardless of their claims

  185. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2010 at 7:45 pm #

    Passerby: “Original records” or “original documents” is way too vague.

    And unworkable. The reason we register births in this country is to avoid trying to find old documents and getting into disputes like the ones into which the birthers try to drag us.

  186. avatar
    Hawaiiborn July 8, 2010 at 7:52 pm #

    yguy:
    On the contrary, it’s nothing but a transparent attempt to keep alive the myth that HI law doesn’t allow Obama to obtain a copy of the original.

    What part of : “THE COLB is the only form that Hawaii issues” do you not understand?

  187. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2010 at 7:57 pm #

    Passerby: I could understand taking it as a stigmatization of birthers as people who were defective. Even though I didn’t think that was what you meant either.

    My reply came off more abrasively than I intended; however, I probably did mean to imply that birthers are defective in some way. I don’t see how my article could be read any other way. But I learn through criticism, so I thank you an charo for whatever I get out of this.

  188. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2010 at 8:12 pm #

    yguy: He doesn’t have to, as that is their default status by law. He can, however, according to HI law, UNseal the original just as he supposedly did for the COLB; and this he has refused to do.

    This is not how the statute reads. Birth records are not “sealed” or “unsealed” (except in cases of adoptions and court orders and that kind of stuff); the state just doesn’t issue certified copies to anyone but those with interests as determined by the statute. Obama didn’t “unseal’ his COLB; he just posted it on the Internet and let somebody take pictures of it. The statements from the Hawaii Department of Health are consistent with what they are permitted to disclose on anyone. That is, you can go down to the Department of Health and ask for a list of the people born in Hawaii on a particular day. They put this stuff IN THE NEWSPAPER even.

  189. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2010 at 8:22 pm #

    Majority Will: Kumbaya?

    Perhaps something like:

    The birthers on the bus go round and round,
    Round and Round,
    Round and Round.
    The birthers on the bus go round and round,
    All through the town.

    Hmmm, perhaps a Doctor Conspiracy musical offering for children CD…

    I’ve been workin’ on the web site
    All the live long day.
    I’ve been workin’ on the web site
    Just to keep birthers at bay…

    or

    I’m a little Obot, short and stout.
    Here is my handle, here is my spout.
    When the birthers see me they fume and shout,
    Kick the little Obot out!

  190. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2010 at 8:29 pm #

    Majority Will: I seriously doubt it will be an issue if the next President isn’t a mixed race person with a funny, foreign sounding name from a state with a foreign sounding name.

    My personal feeling is that if the Barack Obama story had one change, Chicago for Honolulu, we would not be talking about birth certificates at all.

  191. avatar
    Bob Weber July 8, 2010 at 8:31 pm #

    IIRC, birther [name deleted], who posts on FreeRepublic as “Danae”, says she was born in Hawaii and has asked for a copy of her original “long form”. This was more than a month ago. Since we’ve heard nothing more, I assume the HI DOH hasn’t obliged her.

    Majority Will:
    Irrelevant and unnecessary.

    yguy:
    The question here is not whether the DoH actually issues them, but whether the law says they must. Why someone born in HI around 1960 hasn’t sued to get one I couldn’t say.
    No sane reading of the statute will allow for such an interpretation.

  192. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2010 at 8:39 pm #

    charo: Let’s make it legal for candidates to provide proof of eligibility for the office they aspire to. Legislators can work that out. Courts can test the boundaries. This birther issue has been a fiasco that is not good for our country.

    I would not agree that such a law would have had any effect on the current “fiasco.” Under a proof of eligibility law, Obama would have shown someone his birth certificate. Under the current law Obama showed EVERYBODY a copy of his birth certificate. What good did that do.

    Under any scenario fraud could be claimed without any evidence to support it, grandmother tapes could be edited, fake forensic document experts could declare a forgery and Indonesian adoption could be alleged. And if under an eligibility law the eligibility question ever came to trial, what is to prevent the conspiracy theorists from shouting “fie, treason” just like they do at the courts today.

    I think one of the biggest fantasies in birtherism is the belief that any piece of evidence or collection of evidence would satisfy them.

  193. avatar
    Passerby July 8, 2010 at 8:48 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: however, I probably did mean to imply that birthers are defective in some way.

    We all are. That’s the problem.

    Dr. Conspiracy: I don’t see how my article could be read any other way.

    My memory had put a little more gentle spin on it. Must have been my cognitive bias in action ;).

    Having reread it, yeah. More so than the rest of us? I don’t know. I guess I’d suspect that if you took the intersection of the set of people who are more prone than average to confirmation bias with the set of people who really don’t like Obama, that birthers would be overrepresented in that set. At least. It’s not that different from what we all do, though. Wasn’t that part of the point? Anyway, I’ll let it go now.

    Dr. Conspiracy: But I learn through criticism, so I thank you an charo for whatever I get out of this.

    Um …. you’re welcome?

  194. avatar
    sfjeff July 8, 2010 at 8:49 pm #

    To go back to the very beginning of this thread, past all the derailments and you still have the fact that Dr. Fukino has still stated that she has seen President Obama’s original BC, that he is born in Hawaii, and that he posted a copy of his BC online.

    With those statements, there is no escaping that President Obama is a NBC unless:
    a) Dr. Fukino is lieing, and her lie is being supported by the Governor of Hawaii or
    b) Dr. Fukino somehow is incapable of noticing a clearly fraudalent BC or
    c) Dr. Fukino mistook “born in Kenya” for ‘born in Hawaii”

    Contrary to James assertion, there is no evidence of Dr. Fukino either lieing or being grossly incompetant. I have read no background on her, other than on rabidly birther sites, that questions her honesty in any other matter. From what i have read she appears to be considered by her profession to be very competant.

    In my profession we use a term called ‘reasonable care’, described as using the care that a reasonable person would use to come to a conclusion. I do not see how a reasonable conclusion can look at what Dr. Fukino has done and come to the concusion that she has used anything but reasonable care in coming to her conclusions and in her statements.

    All the things that Yguy and James and others try to find nits about will not change the fundamental concept- the proof is there that President Obama was born in Hawaii.

    What birthers hope is that the ‘long form’ BC will have some politically damaging information that they can use in further smears against the President.

  195. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 8:51 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    My personal feeling is that if the Barack Obama story had one change, Chicago for Honolulu, we would not be talking about birth certificates at all.

    Hmmm. That might make some difference but I’ve read hundreds of posts with vile, blatantly racist references to the President’s race and name and vile, bigoted comments about Michelle and the children too. I believe race is a predominant motive of birthers and any excuse to question the President’s legitimacy is leaped upon and repeated ad nauseam.

  196. avatar
    Passerby July 8, 2010 at 8:51 pm #

    Oh, I forgot to say–love the songs. I like the Obot one.

  197. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 8:54 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Perhaps something like:
    Hmmm, perhaps a Doctor Conspiracy musical offering for children CD…

    The birthers on the bus go round and round,
    Round and Round,
    Round and Round.
    The birthers on the bus go round and round,
    All through the town.

    Sarah Palin could sing to Trig at night with that song!

  198. avatar
    Passerby July 8, 2010 at 9:12 pm #

    Lupin: Yes, there are people who opposes Obama because of what they (wrongly) perceive as his Marxist policies, and they have a record of opposing the Federal Government, e.g.: right wing militia, etc.

    It is not just the opposition to Obama, no matter how crazy, that makes a birther; it is the reliance on a delusional set of hypotheses that challenge his legitimacy.That is the racist core of the birther agenda, quite similar to the KKK’s or the Nativists’ in Arizona.

    Coming back to this. I don’t mean that I think the primary motivation is opposition to Obama’s policies. I think the underlying thing here is something that, if anything, is even more insidious than simple racism: the inability to concede that any member of the Democratic party can legitimately be their president. The fact that they were all anti-government during the Clinton years, dropped it during the Bush years, and then started again with Obama just underlines that.

    That’s what all that “real America” stuff was about during the campaign, and what’s behind statements about the country being “stolen”. It’s not just Obama. It’s the whole party.

    A thought experiment: Hillary Clinton became president. I truly think that we’d have something equivalent to the birthers. They wouldn’t be birthers, although it would be a lot of the same people, because it’s not her birth they’d be questioning. It’d be something else–maybe some of those old accusations from when Bill was president.

    A lot of the rhetoric and arguments they’d use would be blatantly, vilely sexist. Some of the people who are birthers wouldn’t be part of it, because they are primarily about the race thing. And some people would be part of it who aren’t birthers, because they’d be mostly motivated by sexism. But there’d be a core of people who were just ready to take any argument at all, because their underlying problem would be that she’s a Democratic president.

    I don’t consider this a defense. I don’t think this is any better than just being a simple racist or sexist. I just think explaining it as simple racism is overlooking a real problem. One which we’re really going to need to face.

    Hopefully that made some sort of sense.

  199. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 9:15 pm #

    Passerby:
    Coming back to this. I don’t mean that I think the primary motivation is opposition to Obama’s policies. I think the underlying thing here is something that, if anything, is even more insidious than simple racism: the inability to concede that any member of the Democratic party can legitimately be their president. The fact that they were all anti-government during the Clinton years, dropped it during the Bush years, and then started again with Obama just underlines that.That’s what all that “real America” stuff was about during the campaign, and what’s behind statements about the country being “stolen”. It’s not just Obama. It’s the whole party.A thought experiment: Hillary Clinton became president. I truly think that we’d have something equivalent to the birthers. They wouldn’t be birthers, although it would be a lot of the same people, because it’s not her birth they’d be questioning. It’d be something else–maybe some of those old accusations from when Bill was president.
    A lot of the rhetoric and arguments they’d use would be blatantly, vilely sexist. Some of the people who are birthers wouldn’t be part of it, because they are primarily about the race thing. And some people would be part of it who aren’t birthers, because they’d be mostly motivated by sexism. But there’d be a core of people who were just ready to take any argument at all, because their underlying problem would be that she’s a Democratic president.I don’t consider this a defense. I don’t think this is any better than just being a simple racist or sexist. I just think explaining it as simple racism is overlooking a real problem. One which we’re really going to need to face.Hopefully that made some sort of sense.

    Interesting theory.

  200. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP July 8, 2010 at 9:24 pm #

    Passerby 08. Jul, 2010 at 9:12 pm Passerby(Quote) #

    Coming back to this. I don’t mean that I think the primary motivation is opposition to Obama’s policies. I think the underlying thing here is something that, if anything, is even more insidious than simple racism: the inability to concede that any member of the Democratic party can legitimately be their president. The fact that they were all anti-government during the Clinton years, dropped it during the Bush years, and then started again with Obama just underlines that.
    —————————————————————————————-
    All of my family are conservatives, and during the Clinton years, they were trying to get me to read all these government conspiracy books. That all went away during the Bush years. Now that Obama is president, they’re all talking about the government conspiracies again.

  201. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2010 at 9:53 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP: All of my family are conservatives, and during the Clinton years, they were trying to get me to read all these government conspiracy books. That all went away during the Bush years. Now that Obama is president, they’re all talking about the government conspiracies again.

    I think this is largely true, but the Fahrenheit 9/11 movie and some extent Maureen Dowd’s book BushWorld have a conspiracy theory aspect to them.

  202. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2010 at 10:19 pm #

    charo: Okay, but Governor Lingle (who never claimed to have seen the birth certificate herself) revealed more sensitive information than what Phil was requesting. Inconsistency. If giving data index information can lead to verification of what is on the COLB (private information), why release that?

    It’s not a matter of your opinion (or Phil’s opinion, or my opinion) as to what is more or less private, or more or less sensitive. They just follow the statutes. If someone thinks different classes of information should be made public, they should talk with the Legislature of Hawaii.

  203. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP July 8, 2010 at 10:19 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I think this is largely true, but the Fahrenheit 9/11 movie and some extent Maureen Dowd’s book BushWorld have a conspiracy theory aspect to them.

    Yes, that’s true, Doc. I’m not going to poo-poo all possibilities of government conspiracies, but I think the important point is that where liberals will accept the possibility of government conspiracy whoever the president is, conservatives willingly blind themselves to and deny that possibility when a Republican is in office. They claim they want to get rid of government conspiracies but only when a Democrat is in office. Well, if these conspiracies are so bad according to them, why don’t they say anything when a Republican is in office? If there really is such a conspiracy, as they claim now and claimed when Clinton was in office, where did it go when Bush was in office?

  204. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2010 at 10:23 pm #

    charo: A blogger who many are familiar with named Miss Tickley documented by e-mail exchanges a change in terminology from birth certificate to vital records when questioned about an amended certifcate. [This is a sketchy account of the details but it has likely been discussed already, as has most every thread topic.]

    Actually Miss Tickley has had very little discussion here. I read a little from Donofrio’s blog before those two parted ways.

    I will comment in general that some birthers spend too much reading between the lines of what Hawaiian officials say and not enough time reading on the lines.

  205. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 10:31 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I will comment in general that some birthers spend too much reading between the lines of what Hawaiian officials say and not enough time reading on the lines.

    Hear, hear.

  206. avatar
    Majority Will July 8, 2010 at 11:34 pm #

    FUTTHESHUCKUP:
    Oops, should have beenI’m NOT going to poo-poo all possibilities of government conspiracies,

    You made an misstatement but to a birther you lied. Which is always true unless you’re a birther.
    So convenient.

  207. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP July 8, 2010 at 11:42 pm #

    Yeah, Will, they get to chose their truth, lol

    🙂

  208. avatar
    FUTTHESHUCKUP July 8, 2010 at 11:43 pm #

    Oops, I lied again. Should be CHOOSE

  209. avatar
    SluggoJD July 8, 2010 at 11:47 pm #

    charo: Tickley

    Why does the anonymous Miss Tickley deserve more respect and trust, than the real person known as Fukino? Miss Tickley could be a guy, or a raving lunatic, or make up fake emails.

    Miss Tickley doesn’t have to follow any rules. Miss Tickley can change her online personna in a minute. Miss Tickley is expendable.

    Fukino is a real person.

    Are nutcases so desperate to get rid of “the scary black man” in the White House, that they will sell their soul to any devil who says what they want to hear?

    Is Lucas Smith, for example, credible because he says he went to Kenya and got Obama’s Kenyan birth certificate? Is he credible simply because he says what nutcases want to hear?

    The same Lucas Smith, who cannot provide any evidence he went to Kenya, who tried to auction the Kenyan BC without even displaying it, who forges checks, went to jail, tried to scam people using his kidney, claims the Virgin Mary visits his house that is for sale, claims to float in the air, threw hot oil on 4 fellow employees, stabbed another guy in the face with a metal clothing hook, steals books and razor blades and sells them on Ebay, and owns an airbrush – a handy tool for crime?

    Doe Charo actually believe Lucas Smith? Does Charo actually believe the anonymous Miss Tickley?

  210. avatar
    misha July 8, 2010 at 11:58 pm #

    I have written this before, but as long as there is an article about this, I’ll repeat it for emphasis:

    Linda Lingle is Jewish. She felt that McCain/Palin were far better for Israel, than Obama.

    If she could have found any dirt, the GOP would have used it with glee.

    Sorry Denialists. In no way would she be sympathetic to Obama. Accusing her being part of the conspiracy, is beyond insane.

  211. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett July 9, 2010 at 1:11 am #

    Silly little birthers
    Just like flat earthers
    Their minds have gone over the moon
    We “Obots” laugh and make their sport
    While Orly Taitz acts like a goon

  212. avatar
    charo July 9, 2010 at 4:26 am #

    SluggoJD: Why does the anonymous Miss Tickley deserve more respect and trust, than the real person known as Fukino? Miss Tickley could be a guy, or a raving lunatic, or make up fake emails.

    I could be a made up person also. So why are you arguing with me?

    SluggoJD: Are nutcases so desperate to get rid of “the scary black man” in the White House, that they will sell their soul to any devil who says what they want to hear?

    If I thought that statement had anything to do with me, I would prepare a response other than this.

    SluggoJD: Is Lucas Smith, for example, credible because he says he went to Kenya and got Obama’s Kenyan birth certificate? Is he credible simply because he says what nutcases want to hear?

    Lucas who?

    Senate-seeker wants Obama birth-certificate treatment
    Mexican-born candidate: ‘If I didn’t prove citizenship, I’d be removed from the ballot’

    http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=176325

    I suppose the guy could be making it all up.

  213. avatar
    charo July 9, 2010 at 4:29 am #

    My comment is in moderation to sluggo. I failed to follow G’s instructions this time and some of my answers are italicized.

    But, here is a link from the comment.

    http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=176325 (let’s see if it makes it through moderation)

  214. avatar
    Tommie July 9, 2010 at 5:02 am #

    I really fail to see what is so hard about Obama just releasing his birth certificate. What is the big deal?

  215. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 5:43 am #

    Why won’t another drive-by birther post the same inane question already answered ad nauseam?

    What IS the big deal?

  216. avatar
    AnotherBird July 9, 2010 at 5:48 am #

    Tommie: I really fail to see what is so hard about Obama just releasing his birth certificate.What is the big deal?

    I really fail to see what is so hard about you just accepting the fact that he has released his birth certificate.

    I really fail to see what is so hard about you just accepting the fact that Barack Obama is a natural born citizen.

    I really fail to see what is so hard about accepting the fact that the state of Hawaii, other states and the federal government control who are citizens by birth (natural born citizens).

    I really fail to see what is so hard about just taking a look at Barack Obama’s birth certificate.

    I really fail to see what is so important about people like you Tommie in spread factually false statements.

    What is the big deal Tommie?

  217. avatar
    AnotherBird July 9, 2010 at 6:00 am #

    charoI don’t even know why I am bothering with this.A blogger who many are familiar with named Miss Tickley documented by e-mail exchanges a change in terminology from birth certificate to vital records when questioned about an amended certifcate.

    I screwed up my thought but I think you get the point.

    There is no point to your revised statement or the original one. A random blogger can type what ever they want. They can fabricate documents and email exchanges.

    I wish birthers would drop their position, then and only then will they be able to see the logical inconsistencies in their arguments. So Charo there is absolutely nothing in your original statement that is consistent with the facts or could be considered to be.

  218. avatar
    Lupin July 9, 2010 at 6:18 am #

    charo: The one that President Obama extended?

    Re: Patriot Act, Gitmo, etc.

    Do not mistake my loathing for the xenophobic delusions of the birthers with support for Obama.

    As a devoted reader of Glenn Greenwald’s blog and one who agrees with GG 90% of the times, 100% when it’s about the insanity of the so-called “war on terror”, I am in fact quite opposed to Obama’s policies.

  219. avatar
    Lupin July 9, 2010 at 6:25 am #

    charo: I support legislation that would make all candidates show verification of eligibility.

    I have no problem witgh that.

    I do have a problem with your willful inability to grasp that Obvama has indeed proven his eligibility to the satisfaction of any court in the country (authenticated BC = prima facie evidence).

    I also have a problem with generic retroactive statements mentioning one’s alleged previous concerns in this very important matter of eligibility. You either exhibited concern or you did not. Let’s start with Dick Cheney who may or may not have been eligible, or McCain. I’d like to see links to any blog postings by you stating said concerns please.

    People can search for Lupin on Billmon’s archives or Kos’ and find plenty of postings by your truly so my stands on various issues can be verified; I find the sudden concern about the eligibility of a black president disingenuous and, yes, racist.

  220. avatar
    Lupin July 9, 2010 at 6:32 am #

    Mary Brown: Do you remember the people who belonged to and belong to the flat earth society.

    I never actually met any of those but when I lived in L.A. I did meet a man (who worked for Hughes Aircraft) who genuinely believed that the Earth was hollow, like Burroughs’ Pellucidar, and aliens came in flying saucers through a number of secret entrances in the Earth’s crust and operated secret bases there. (I think they also had bases on Venus but I’m not 100% sure.)

    I was thoroughly unable to disprove his beliefs because he pretty much had answers for everything, and while I don’t believe UFOs are alien spaceships, I do admit that the phenomenon isn’t satisfactorily explained either.

    Mind you, if the GLOBE said Bush Senior met with aliens, it must be true, no?

  221. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 6:50 am #

    Lupin:
    I never actually met any of those but when I lived in L.A. I did meet a man (who worked for Hughes Aircraft) who genuinely believed that the Earth was hollow, like Burroughs’ Pellucidar, and aliens came in flying saucers through a number of secret entrances in the Earth’s crust and operated secret bases there. (I think they also had bases on Venus but I’m not 100% sure.)
    I was thoroughly unable to disprove his beliefs because he pretty much had answers for everything, and while I don’t believe UFOs are alien spaceships, I do admit that the phenomenon isn’t satisfactorily explained either.Mind you, if the GLOBE said Bush Senior met with aliens, it must be true, no?

    Oh no. Now you’ve exposed them! RUN! 😉

  222. avatar
    Lupin July 9, 2010 at 7:09 am #

    Passerby: Hopefully that made some sort of sense.

    That made perfect sense, thank you.

    I touched upon the very same point when I said I lost the tiny ounce of tolerance I had for right-wing ideologues (militia, etc) when they supinely acquiesced to the patriot Act and every attempt by the Bush executive to grab power.

    At that point I realized that they had no principles whatsoever. As you correctly point out, they react viscerally, like a snarling dog on a chain, to their political opponents and use whatever ammunition is at hand: Hilary is a woman, Obama is black, etc.

    So you’re correct when you say that racism is only part of the equation, possibly just a convenient tool. That’s why I’ve taken to use the term “xenophobia” because I see this as a kind of tribal warfare.

    The right-wing is like a primitive tribe that will lash out at the enemy tribe and use every weapon they can devise to destroy them.

    The most important thing to remember, I think, is that birthers, tea baggers, etc. HAVE NO PRINCIPLES. All their rants about the constitution, eligibility, socialism and what-nots are just pretexts. They have no beliefs other than their tribal belief that they are the Chosen Ones and anyone else is the Enemy.

  223. avatar
    Lupin July 9, 2010 at 7:12 am #

    SluggoJD: Why does the anonymous Miss Tickley deserve more respect and trust, than the real person known as Fukino?

    If THE GLOBE is trustworthy when it claims Obama was born in Kenya, it is also trustworthy when it shows Bush shaking tentacles with a space alien.

    Personally I find the second story more worrisome, but that’s just me.

    Their cognitive dissonance is astounding.

  224. avatar
    Lupin July 9, 2010 at 7:17 am #

    Tommie: I really fail to see what is so hard about Obama just releasing his birth certificate. What is the big deal?

    You really don’t get it, do you?

    A number of us here are lawyers. We have some experience with presenting evidence in court, etc.

    Obama has presented his BC and it has been authenticated; if this was a passport or an immigration issue, say, it wouldn’t take more than 5 minutes of Court’s time to wrap the case.

    There is doubt only in the minds of a bunch of delusional birthers and their meretricious attorneys; no one else has any doubts, not even his political opponents.

  225. avatar
    Bob Ross July 9, 2010 at 7:43 am #

    Tommie: I really fail to see what is so hard about Obama just releasing his birth certificate.What is the big deal?

    Tommie: I really fail to see what is so hard about Obama just releasing his birth certificate.What is the big deal?

    Tommie: I really fail to see what is so hard about Obama just releasing his birth certificate.What is the big deal?

    *channels jerry seinfield* Hey guys whats the big idea with birthers?….

    anyway obama has released his birth certificate thats what the COLB is that you guys keep refusing to accept. how many other presidents have you seen their long form? how many other presidents have you asked this question of? seriously tommie whats the big deal?

  226. avatar
    Ellid July 9, 2010 at 7:46 am #

    Tommie: I really fail to see what is so hard about Obama just releasing his birth certificate.What is the big deal?

    Hi, concern troller! Here’s the answer to your question:

    THE PRESIDENT RELEASED HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE TWO YEARS AGO.

    Now, please go away, okay?

  227. avatar
    misha July 9, 2010 at 7:56 am #

    Tommie: I really fail to see what is so hard about Obama just releasing his birth certificate. What is the big deal?

    Tommie: I don’t know if you are reading this, but you raise a valid concern. I found a BC (Obama’s?) that’s right here!

    Thanks for your comment.

  228. avatar
    Ellid July 9, 2010 at 7:57 am #

    Lupin:
    I never actually met any of those but when I lived in L.A. I did meet a man (who worked for Hughes Aircraft) who genuinely believed that the Earth was hollow, like Burroughs’ Pellucidar, and aliens came in flying saucers through a number of secret entrances in the Earth’s crust and operated secret bases there. (I think they also had bases on Venus but I’m not 100% sure.)
    I was thoroughly unable to disprove his beliefs because he pretty much had answers for everything, and while I don’t believe UFOs are alien spaceships, I do admit that the phenomenon isn’t satisfactorily explained either.Mind you, if the GLOBE said Bush Senior met with aliens, it must be true, no?

    Seriously? What else, did he believe in the World Ice theory and the Black Sun?

  229. avatar
    SluggoJD July 9, 2010 at 8:15 am #

    Lupin:
    That made perfect sense, thank you.I touched upon the very same point when I said I lost the tiny ounce of tolerance I had for right-wing ideologues (militia, etc) when they supinely acquiesced to the patriot Act and every attempt by the Bush executive to grab power.At that point I realized that they had no principles whatsoever. As you correctly point out, they react viscerally, like a snarling dog on a chain, to their political opponents and use whatever ammunition is at hand: Hilary is a woman, Obama is black, etc.So you’re correct when you say that racism is only part of the equation, possibly just a convenient tool. That’s why I’ve taken to use the term “xenophobia” because I see this as a kind of tribal warfare.The right-wing is like a primitive tribe that will lash out at the enemy tribe and use every weapon they can devise to destroy them.The most important thing to remember, I think, is that birthers, tea baggers, etc. HAVE NO PRINCIPLES.All their rants about the constitution, eligibility, socialism and what-nots are just pretexts. They have no beliefs other than their tribal belief that they are the Chosen Ones and anyone else is the Enemy.

    Very well said, and this easily explains why there are so many “bad people” in BirtherLand. They are anti-government, when it suits them, because they don’t want any rules or laws that impinge on their ability to scam, con, fleece, steal, rob, screw, or any other action.

    Well said!

  230. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 9, 2010 at 8:22 am #

    AnotherBird: There is no point to your revised statement or the original one. A random blogger can type what ever they want. They can fabricate documents and email exchanges.

    That’s true, and we’ve seen our share of fake birth certificates. However, it is much more common to see true evidence taken out of context or misinterpreted (such as “records” = “amended”).

  231. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 9, 2010 at 8:27 am #

    Tommie: I really fail to see what is so hard about Obama just releasing his birth certificate. What is the big deal?

    Barack Obama released his birth certificate in June of 2008 (over 2 years ago). You’re a little bit behind the times. I hope this clears things up for you.

  232. avatar
    SluggoJD July 9, 2010 at 8:30 am #

    Charo, you ARE a “made up person,” and I’m not arguing with you…I don’t feed (must find a nice word to use here) gnomes. People like you will evade and deceive and dance around, and people like me love to shoot truth bullets at point blank range. We can’t tango together, sorry.

    BTW, I’m not a made up person. I’m John Dean, from Santa Ana, CA, and I have been SluggoJD online for over 15 years. Easy to find.

    How could you be a birther and not know of Lucas Smith.

    And what does a hispanic Republican candidate have to do with anything. He is right to challenge a ruling, but he is clearly wrong when he evokes Obama in his reasoning…he dilutes his “side” of the argument, by playing politics, instead of merely dealing with the law.

    The law is supposed to be non-political and color blind. That is a cornerstone of a just and fair society…which is what “America” is supposed to be.

    Now like I said, I don’t feed….gnomes. So don’t expect any continued civilized conversation between us. You’re here for a reason, and I loathe people like you.

  233. avatar
    kimba July 9, 2010 at 9:23 am #

    charo wrote:

    “I support legislation that would make all candidates show verification of eligibility.”

    Are you working with your legislators to change the law? Or do you support people who file objections to candidates’ eligibility to try to force candidates to show information the law does not require? People who then publicly state there’s no reason to suspect the candidate was born outside the US they just don’t think the law is specific enough? Wouldn’t you agree that filing an objection to a candidate’s eligibility with no evidence to support that claim is at least bearing false witness if not filing a fraudulent objection?

    “If someone wanted to see my driver’s license renewal receipt, I would gladly release it even though I didn’t have to.”

    So? You only show you don’t understand “burden of proof”. Just because you would be willing to give up your rights, does not create a precedent which would require others to do the same in the future. If Sally Oeffling Wiggins in McHenry County IL decides it’s personally more convenient to show her birth certificate to placate a birther than to insist the law be applied and the burden of proof is on the objector to her candidacy, it does not create a precedent that can be used in the future to require all other candidates to do the same. Besides, if Ms. Wiggins would give up her rights rather than insist the law be followed because it’s not convenient, she is a very poor candidate for judge anyway. Nothing any individual candidate does prevents any other candidate from insisting the law be applied and objectioins dismissed if the objector can’t meet the burden of proof required by law. The only way to require proof of eligibility, in whatever way satisifies you, can only be accomplished by working with legislators to change the law.

  234. avatar
    Lupin July 9, 2010 at 10:00 am #

    SluggoJD: Very well said, and this easily explains why there are so many “bad people” in BirtherLand. They are anti-government, when it suits them, because they don’t want any rules or laws that impinge on their ability to scam, con, fleece, steal, rob, screw, or any other action.

    Well said!

    I think it’s even simpler: you’re part of the tribe: you can do what the f*** you want. Bush could have skull-f****d a girl scout on the white house lawn, that would have been OK with them. You’re not part of the tribe: ex-ter-mi-na-te! Obama drops a cigarette butt in a park. Impeach him!

    Basically, they’re Daleks. They have no morals, no compass, no principles, just blind subservience to the tribe and enmity towards everyone else.

  235. avatar
    Lupin July 9, 2010 at 10:03 am #

    Ellid: What else, did he believe in the World Ice theory and the Black Sun?

    I have no idea what else he believed in — this was a chance meeting at a party in Venice Beach. I do think he was 100% serious though. That was around ’86 or ’87, way before X-FILES too. He looked like an engineer with the pencils on the shirt pocket, very mild, not the kind of person you’d expect to hold such beliefs. I loved California until the right-wing demolished it.

  236. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 10:18 am #

    Lupin:
    He looked like an engineer with the pencils on the shirt pocket, very mild, not the kind of person you’d expect to hold such beliefs. I loved California until the right-wing demolished it.

    Did he look like this?
    http://www.imdb.com/media/rm538021376/tt0106856

  237. avatar
    Sef July 9, 2010 at 10:35 am #

    Ellid:
    Seriously?What else, did he believe in the World Ice theory and the Black Sun?

    Sadly, in googling WIT I discover that Martin Gardner left us on May 22. He will be missed.

  238. avatar
    Reality Check July 9, 2010 at 10:37 am #

    Has anyone mentioned lately that Barack Obama did not release his birth certificate to prove he was eligible to run? In June 2008 Phil Berg and the other idiots hadn’t really started making noise yet. No, he released his birth certificate to prove his middle name was not “Mohammed”. Those were the rumors floating around the blogosphere at the time. It just also happened to provide further proof (as if any were needed) that he was born in Hawaii.

    I am not sure what this proves other than that the COLB was completely adequate to show his true name at birth as well as the location and that the Birthers re-framed the question after the release of the COLB.

  239. avatar
    Lupin July 9, 2010 at 10:51 am #

    Majority Will: Did he look like this?

    Yeah a bit. Older, smaller, with slicker hair.

  240. avatar
    Rickey July 9, 2010 at 10:55 am #

    Lupin:
    I never actually met any of those but when I lived in L.A. I did meet a man (who worked for Hughes Aircraft) who genuinely believed that the Earth was hollow, like Burroughs’ Pellucidar, and aliens came in flying saucers through a number of secret entrances in the Earth’s crust and operated secret bases there.

    A book called “The Hollow Earth” by Dr. Raymond Bernard (real name: Walter Siegmeister) was published in 1964 and was advertised extensively in the New York Times Book Review. Of course, the hollow earth theory did not originate with him, but his book intrigued a lot of people. Believe it or not, it is still in print!

    Wikipedia has an article on Siegmeister — check out his list of publications.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_W._Bernard

  241. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 11:01 am #

    Reality Check: Has anyone mentioned lately that Barack Obama did not release his birth certificate to prove he was eligible to run? In June 2008 Phil Berg and the other idiots hadn’t really started making noise yet. No, he released his birth certificate to prove his middle name was not “Mohammed”. Those were the rumors floating around the blogosphere at the time. It just also happened to provide further proof (as if any were needed) that he was born in Hawaii.I am not sure what this proves other than that the COLB was completely adequate to show his true name at birth as well as the location and that the Birthers re-framed the question after the release of the COLB.

    And thus re-affirming the President’s middle name is Hussein sparking the same despicable, xenophobic paranoia in Birferstan! It’s a no win.

  242. avatar
    Lupin July 9, 2010 at 11:01 am #

    I don’t know about you but I find the segue from james or yguy to the hollow earth rather refreshing.

    Could Obama be a Mahar in disguise?

  243. avatar
    charo July 9, 2010 at 11:16 am #

    kimba: Are you working with your legislators to change the law?

    I am not part of any grassroots effort. I didn’t realize that I had to be to have an opinion.

    kimba: “If someone wanted to see my driver’s license renewal receipt, I would gladly release it even though I didn’t have to.”

    So? You only show you don’t understand “burden of proof”. Just because you would be willing to give up your rights, does not create a precedent which would require others to do the same in the future.

    I was answering a direct question, not initiating “Well I would even show a receipt for my driver’s registration.” This actually needs to be narrowed to this: would I allow the DOT to answer yes or no as to whether there was a receipt. I don’t find that invasive. You may see that as a slippery slope argument. I don’t. I may be wrong but is it your position that there should be no legislation requiring a candidate to show any proof of eligibility? [Staying away from the whole Obama scene.] Electronic medical records is certainly a big issue for privacy concerns. There is a need for a more efficient way to handle records on the one hand, yet medical issues are very personal and who wants to take a chance on the loss of privacy for one’s health? There has to be some kind of balance. IMO, the same is true for proof of eligibility.

  244. avatar
    charo July 9, 2010 at 11:19 am #

    “would I allow the DOT to answer yes or no as to whether there was a receipt. I don’t find that invasive.”

    Clarification. If it were asked in some kind of context, not just randomly asking the question.

  245. avatar
    Sef July 9, 2010 at 11:27 am #

    charo: “would I allow the DOT to answer yes or no as to whether there was a receipt. I don’t find that invasive.”Clarification.If it were asked in some kind of context, not just randomly asking the question.

    In some states the only receipt is the license itself, thus a requirement to produce a license automatically produces the receipt as the date of issuance is on the license.

  246. avatar
    Dave July 9, 2010 at 11:37 am #

    charo: “would I allow the DOT to answer yes or no as to whether there was a receipt. I don’t find that invasive.”Clarification.If it were asked in some kind of context, not just randomly asking the question.

    Here I think you have gone to the crux of the matter. Obama, as candidate, released pictures of his birth certificate and permitted reporters to examine it two years ago not because it was in any way required, but because there was context. That context was that he lived much of his childhood outside the country, which was lending some traction to those who would spread the rumor that he wasn’t born in the US. The release closed the issue, except for an extremely few people who now think they need to see copies of the original birth record — but those people are unable to articulate a context that makes any sense of this request. What will we learn from seeing that record? I suspect that this request is a cynical attempt to provide a continued basis for the rumors — and given the minuscule number of people who worry about this, a failed attempt.

  247. avatar
    charo July 9, 2010 at 11:45 am #

    Sef:
    In some states the only receipt is the license itself, thus a requirement to produce a license automatically produces the receipt as the date of issuance is on the license.

    I didn’t provide that example: it was presented to me by Bob.

  248. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 11:52 am #

    Dave:
    Here I think you have gone to the crux of the matter. Obama, as candidate, released pictures of his birth certificate and permitted reporters to examine it two years ago not because it was in any way required, but because there was context. That context was that he lived much of his childhood outside the country, which was lending some traction to those who would spread the rumor that he wasn’t born in the US. The release closed the issue, except for an extremely few people who now think they need to see copies of the original birth record — but those people are unable to articulate a context that makes any sense of this request. What will we learn from seeing that record? I suspect that this request is a cynical attempt to provide a continued basis for the rumors — and given the minuscule number of people who worry about this, a failed attempt.

    I have no doubt that the release of any more Health Department related information would only add more fuel to the fires of the feverish, mentally challenged, paranoid, xenophobic birthers. They would immediately pounce on EVERY MINISCULE DETAIL and another slurry of half-truths, innuendo and outright lies would spew like uncontrollable dysentery across the internet. The gullible birther profit machines at Whirled Nut Daily and elsewhere would go into 24/7 overdrive. There’s all too much historical proof to back up my assertion.

    “Just release the long form” is an obscene, fear mongering and twisted ruse with absolutely no valid justification.

  249. avatar
    ellid July 9, 2010 at 12:27 pm #

    Sef:
    Sadly, in googling WIT I discover that Martin Gardner left us on May 22.He will be missed.

    I know. It was a terrible loss – his intelligence, learning, and ability to debunk ridiculous theories will be sorely missed.

  250. avatar
    ellid July 9, 2010 at 12:28 pm #

    Lupin: I don’t know about you but I find the segue from james or yguy to the hollow earth rather refreshing.Could Obama be a Mahar in disguise?

    As long as he’s not a Dero (which he manifestly isn’t), it’s all good.

  251. avatar
    E GLenn Harcsar July 9, 2010 at 12:42 pm #

    Hi Dr. C

    This post I know if off topic but I couldn’t find the site for new info.

    I mentioned this Obama conspiracy several weeks ago–it seems it indeed has legs. Your comment-makers seemed to agree with me then that indeed a crime has been committed, but that “it’s nothing to see-just move along, move along.”

    BTW one of your comment-makers above challenged charo to prove s/he was interested in abuse of gov’t power during the Bush era. For the record I was challenging grad students to use the Web to explain WTC 7 falling to the ground in rubble and dust.

    http://www.judicialwatch.org/news/2010/jul/judicial-watch-files-congressional-ethics-complaint-against-rep-joe-sestak-over-obama-

    Judicial Watch Files Congressional Ethics Complaint Against Rep. Joe Sestak Over Obama White House Jobs Scandal

    Contact Information:
    Press Office 202-646-5172, ext 305

    Washington, DC — July 8, 2010

    Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption, announced today that it has filed a congressional ethics complaint against Pennsylvania Rep. Joe Sestak for allegedly conspiring with the Obama White House to “cover up criminal conduct regarding job offers made to Congressman Sestak in exchange for leaving a political campaign.” As Judicial Watch notes in its complaint, Rep. Sestak changed his story regarding the details of the job offer “after consulting with the White House.”

    According to Judicial Watch’s complaint, dated July 7, 2010: “…The record of statements made to the media suggest that Congressman Sestak and Obama White House officials conspired to cover up the facts of a job offer made to Congressman Sestak in an effort to avoid criminal sanctions for violation of the Hatch Act and other federal laws. And by so doing they may have engaged in a criminal conspiracy.”

  252. avatar
    Dave July 9, 2010 at 12:45 pm #

    Lupin:
    I never actually met any of those but when I lived in L.A. I did meet a man (who worked for Hughes Aircraft) who genuinely believed that the Earth was hollow…
    I was thoroughly unable to disprove his beliefs because he pretty much had answers for everything…

    One way that birthers are unlike other tinfoil hat types is that birthers most definitely do not have an answer to everything. It’s rare that you can get them to answer anything. In fact, they seem completely incurious about the details of their own conspiracy theory.
    Why do judges keep ruling against them? Why didn’t McCain or Clinton pursue Obama’s eligibility? Why doesn’t one single Congressman do anything about it, or even so much as call for an investigation? This last question is the most striking one to me. Birthers really shy away from discussing Congress. Perhaps they realize that explanations like “bribed” or “threatened” or “part of the conspiracy” sound way too silly when applied to about 200 GOP members of Congress.

  253. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 12:51 pm #

    “Biographical history, as taught in our public schools, is still largely a history of boneheads: ridiculous kings and queens, paranoid political leaders, compulsive voyagers, ignorant generals – the flotsam and jetsam of historical currents. The men who radically altered history, the great scientists and mathematicians, are seldom mentioned, if at all.”

    “Did Adam and Eve Have Navels?”

    – Martin Gardner

  254. avatar
    Dave July 9, 2010 at 12:56 pm #

    E GLenn Harcsar: I mentioned this Obama conspiracy several weeks ago–it seems it indeed has legs.Yourcomment-makers seemed to agree with me then that indeed a crime has been committed, but that “it’s nothing to see-just move along,move along.”

    I don’t know what “comment-maker” agreed that the Sestak story involves the commission of a crime. I am aware that there is a wingnut talking point that a crime was involved. As for Judicial Watch, they are wingnut astroturfers. They pretend to be a public interest group, but all they do is spout right-wing talking points. So it’s not really news that they are also spouting this right-wing talking point.

  255. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 1:15 pm #

    Dave:
    I don’t know what “comment-maker” agreed that the Sestak story involves the commission of a crime. I am aware that there is a wingnut talking point that a crime was involved. As for Judicial Watch, they are wingnut astroturfers. They pretend to be a public interest group, but all they do is spout right-wing talking points. So it’s not really news that they are also spouting this right-wing talking point.

    Also known as the Richard Mellon Scaife Watch. [end sarcasm]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Mellon_Scaife

  256. avatar
    kimba July 9, 2010 at 1:23 pm #

    charo wrote:
    “I am not part of any grassroots effort. I didn’t realize that I had to be to have an opinion.”

    You can’t expect the law to change itself. That requires working with legislators. Sure there are those who think they can change eligibility laws through the courts. Eligibility is a politicial question that can only be answered in the legislative branch. but maybe you’re one of those who sits back and opines.

    “would I allow the DOT to answer yes or no as to whether there was a receipt. I don’t find that invasive. You may see that as a slippery slope argument. ”
    The slippery slope is believing because you’re willing to give up your rights, others should feel compelled to do so even though the law doesn’t require it.

    In your opinion, is it acceptable for someone to file objections to candidates to try to compel the candidates to show information they aren’t required by law to show? Is it proper to use the objection process to introduce the political question of eligiblity into the courts rather than work with the legislature to change the law? Is filing an objection to a candidate but then publicly stating one has no proof the allegations in the objection are true, bearing false witness or knowingly filing a fraudulent objection?

  257. avatar
    sfjeff July 9, 2010 at 1:49 pm #

    “I mentioned this Obama conspiracy several weeks ago–it seems it indeed has legs. Your comment-makers seemed to agree with me then that indeed a crime has been committed, but that “it’s nothing to see-just move along, move along.””

    Actually I don’t remember anyone agreeing that a crime might have been committed.

    But was has this have to do with President Obama’s eligibility?

    If your point is that you think this is confirmation of many Birthers faith that President Obama is corrupt, well this is only self serving press release by a fairly biased(I will not say completely) organization, tha they have filed a complaint. This by itself is no more evidence of corruption than Glenn Becks usual rants.

    But you know what? If real evidence does emerge showing real malfeasance within the Administration ala Richard Nixon, I will be glad to condemn those actions. I hope that if no such evidence emerges, that you will as gladly admit that there is no evidence demonstrating malfeasance.

  258. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 9, 2010 at 2:11 pm #

    E GLenn Harcsar: Hi Dr. CThis post I know if off topic but I couldn’t find the site for new info.I mentioned this Obama conspiracy several weeks ago–it seems it indeed has legs. Your comment-makers seemed to agree with me then that indeed a crime has been committed, but that “it’s nothing to see-just move along, move along.”BTW one of your comment-makers above challenged charo to prove s/he was interested in abuse of gov’t power during the Bush era. For the record I was challenging grad students to use the Web to explain WTC 7 falling to the ground in rubble and dust.http://www.judicialwatch.org/news/2010/jul/judicial-watch-files-congressional-ethics-complaint-against-rep-joe-sestak-over-obama-Judicial Watch Files Congressional Ethics Complaint Against Rep. Joe Sestak Over Obama White House Jobs ScandalContact Information:Press Office 202-646-5172, ext 305Washington, DC — July 8, 2010Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption, announced today that it has filed a congressional ethics complaint against Pennsylvania Rep. Joe Sestak for allegedly conspiring with the Obama White House to “cover up criminal conduct regarding job offers made to Congressman Sestak in exchange for leaving a political campaign.” As Judicial Watch notes in its complaint, Rep. Sestak changed his story regarding the details of the job offer “after consulting with the White House.”According to Judicial Watch’s complaint, dated July 7, 2010: “…The record of statements made to the media suggest that Congressman Sestak and Obama White House officials conspired to cover up the facts of a job offer made to Congressman Sestak in an effort to avoid criminal sanctions for violation of the Hatch Act and other federal laws. And by so doing they may have engaged in a criminal conspiracy.”

    This is a total non-issue. There was no quid pro quo here. What position would Sestak have been in, in order to give the Obama administration a favor? Dropping out of the race so someone else can run is normal party politics. Reagan did it in California years ago to try to stop the electorate from being split and swinging to the hard right. His daughter was a candidate in that race as well as Pete Wilson and others. Judicial watch is a right wing think tank posing as an impartial watch dog.

  259. avatar
    sfjeff July 9, 2010 at 2:17 pm #

    And Glenn, maybe your definition of “legs” is different from mine. Looking for articles about this ‘scandal’, I find almost nothing in the news for the past week.

  260. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 9, 2010 at 2:23 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): This is a total non-issue. There was no quid pro quo here. What position would Sestak have been in, in order to give the Obama administration a favor? Dropping out of the race so someone else can run is normal party politics. Reagan did it in California years ago to try to stop the electorate from being split and swinging to the hard right. His daughter was a candidate in that race as well as Pete Wilson and others. Judicial watch is a right wing think tank posing as an impartial watch dog.

    Also Judicial watch is directly funded by Richard Mellon Scaife, hardly a non-partisan organization

  261. avatar
    misha July 9, 2010 at 2:38 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Also Judicial watch is directly funded by Richard Mellon Scaife, hardly a non-partisan organization

    Judicial Watch is exactly the reason I am dismayed when Jews get involved with that crowd. One of their lawyers is Larry Klayman.

    He actually sued his mother, and took it to trial.

    The conservatives are a special kind of crazy – like Kristol, who is wrong about everything, but still finds a willing audience.

    Jewish conservatives – putting the insane in crazy.

  262. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 9, 2010 at 2:39 pm #

    misha: Judicial Watch is exactly the reason I am dismayed when Jews get involved with that crowd. One of their lawyers is Larry Klayman.He actually sued his mother, and took it to trial.The conservatives are a special kind of crazy – like Kristol, who is wrong about everything, but still finds a willing audience.Jewish conservatives – putting the insane in crazy.

    Its like Jews for Jesus

  263. avatar
    E GLenn Harcsar July 9, 2010 at 2:44 pm #

    Happy Happy Friday to you Bob Ross

    I agree with your position about “normal party politics.” But that doesn’t make it OK.

    The issue concerning Dr. C is to debunk the conspiracy of the cover up among Sestak, Obama, (and Clinton!). We hope for so much more from this man, but have been delivered the same bill of bad goods. The little lies here that cannot be hidden, crack open the big lies that have been otherwise “sealed.” If the Independence Day rhetoric offered early this month holds true–that it’s not about blood or birthplace, but faith that makes an American so, these things make us (me) lose faith. Without, what’s left except a naked will to power?

    And just for the sake of getting to use a smiley face at the end of this post , I’ll accept your assessment of Judicial Watch, as far as you’ll accept the same of FactCheck. 🙂

  264. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 9, 2010 at 2:47 pm #

    E GLenn Harcsar: Happy Happy Friday to you Bob RossI agree with your position about “normal party politics.” But that doesn’t make it OK.The issue concerning Dr. C is to debunk the conspiracy of the cover up among Sestak, Obama, (and Clinton!). We hope for so much more from this man, but have been delivered the same bill of bad goods. The little lies here that cannot be hidden, crack open the big lies that have been otherwise “sealed.” If the Independence Day rhetoric offered early this month holds true–that it’s not about blood or birthplace, but faith that makes an American so, these things make us (me) lose faith. Without, what’s left except a naked will to power?And just for the sake of getting to use a smiley face at the end of this post , I’ll accept your assessment of Judicial Watch, as far as you’ll accept the same of FactCheck.

    There was no cover up. There was no conspiracy. Once again you’re claiming something that was entirely legal somehow magically illegal. How often have you complained about this situation in the past? Both republicans and democrats do this on a day to day basis.

    Did you vote for Obama?

    Factcheck is funded by a Republican foundation. Dick Cheney pointed to them during his debate. How exactly is factcheck partisan?

  265. avatar
    sfjeff July 9, 2010 at 2:59 pm #

    “to debunk the conspiracy of the cover up among Sestak, Obama, (and Clinton!)”

    Consipiracy of the cover up? What does that even mean?.

    “The little lies here that cannot be hidden, crack open the big lies that have been otherwise “sealed.” ”

    Could you name 5 of the lies?

    RE: Comparing Factcheck and Judicial Watch- they are clearly different kind of organizations.

    Factcheck is specifically established to review the facts- and any reading of their website will find substantial criticism of both the right and the left.

    Judicial Watch is an activist organization that files lawsuits to change what it perceives is wrong- all having to do with a specific conservative/libertarian philosophy- sometimes Rebublicans though it is usually Democrats or left wing causes.

    What i do have an issue with is your claim that this one action by Judicial Watch indicates that there is any ‘legs’ to this. Its one action by one organization. Whoop de doo.

  266. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 3:17 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    Its like Jews for Jesus

    An oxymoron. Unless of course, they are just cheering him on in a friendly sort of way. “Give me a J!” “J!” . . .

  267. avatar
    SluggoJD July 9, 2010 at 3:32 pm #

    E GLenn Harcsar: SluggoJD

    Like cockroaches, aren’t they?

    Something that has no legs, “has legs.” One “gnome” who joined the fracas, becomes “your commenters agreed with me.”

  268. avatar
    charo July 9, 2010 at 3:36 pm #

    kimba: You can’t expect the law to change itself. That requires working with legislators. Sure there are those who think they can change eligibility laws through the courts. Eligibility is a politicial question that can only be answered in the legislative branch. but maybe you’re one of those who sits back and opines.

    And EVERY person opposed to the controversial Arizona law is an activist? Every last one. I am not having sleepless nights over the issue. I support a measure. So yes, I am sitting back and opining. I don’t think violates the comment policy here.

    kimba: Is filing an objection to a candidate but then publicly stating one has no proof the allegations in the objection are true, bearing false witness or knowingly filing a fraudulent objection?

    First, there is this:

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/29/obamas.first.campaign/index.html

    Obama played hardball in first Chicago campaign…

    From what I read about challenging signatures, as Candidate Obama did, you challenge without really knowing that there is non-compliance. In any case, he used the rules to get what he wanted. He had a legal right to do it, and when you enter politics, you have to cross your t’s and dot your i’s, so to speak. You have to be aware of all of the technicalities. I don’t think Chalice Jackson did anything illegal to get what she wanted. I don’t know that for sure. If it is illegal, then she’ll have some kind of consequence.

  269. avatar
    SluggoJD July 9, 2010 at 3:37 pm #

    E GLenn Harcsar: SluggoJD

    “The issue concerning Dr. C is to debunk the conspiracy of the cover up among Sestak, Obama, (and Clinton!). We hope for so much more from this man, but have been delivered the same bill of bad goods. The little lies here that cannot be hidden, crack open the big lies that have been otherwise “sealed.””

    Well, at least this “gnome” doesn’t try to hide the fact, but to claim “we hope for so much more…” is pure BS.

  270. avatar
    misha July 9, 2010 at 3:39 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Its like Jews for Jesus

    I was on a forum, and a West Bank settler told me that liberal Jews like myself would have been capos. I was raised by survivors, so that’s like throwing a match into a can of gasoline.

    I responded that JFJ are the latter day capos, and I pointed out they are funded by the same evangelicals who finance the settlements and their fascist politicians, like Avigdor Lieberman.

    No response.

  271. avatar
    Expelliarmus July 9, 2010 at 4:37 pm #

    charo: From what I read about challenging signatures, as Candidate Obama did, you challenge without really knowing that there is non-compliance.

    Actually, he had a strong reason to suspect that signatures wouldn’t stand scrutiny at the time he raised the challenge, both because the candidate he was challenging had decided to run late in the game, and because it was fairly common in Chicago for candidates to file petitions with bogus signatures. So it was a reasonably good bet that the petition challenge would succeed.

    In any case, he used the rules to get what he wanted. He had a legal right to do it, and when you enter politics, you have to cross your t’s and dot your i’s, so to speak.

    That’s the key point — he followed the rules, he crossed his t’s and dotted his i’s — he did not wait until it was too late (after the election), or bypass the system (such as by filing a post-election lawsuit rather than following statutory procedures for election challenges). Obama actually did lose one election in his life — when he ran for Congress — and there were no lawsuits or post-election whining. He recognized the problems of his own making that led to his defeat.

  272. avatar
    Jim Cricket July 9, 2010 at 4:57 pm #

    The right winger crazies keep referring to this new black panther party and their hate speech … Ok , my question is: there is a LOT of white supremacy hate speech out there, (hal turner, etc) , how come these hypocrites don’t call attention to that ??? They just ignore the white supremacy shit, does it have any thing to do with the fact that the white supremacist hate groups are fellow Obama haters, so the racism is ok in that case? You damn right it does…

    These people are pure evil liars and hypocrites.

  273. avatar
    kimba July 9, 2010 at 4:58 pm #

    charo wrote:

    “And EVERY person opposed to the controversial Arizona law is an activist? ”

    You said you thought election law should be different. Opining won’t make it happen.

    “Obama played hardball in first Chicago campaign…”

    Waaaah Obama. Any citizen can examine the signatures, they’re public record.
    Meroni wants candidates to provide information that is not public record and not required by law. Many candidates won’t provide the information and the board will rule in their favor, then Meroni can bring it to the courts. She will have used the board of elections process just as she planned, to get back into the judicial branch and try to get a ruling on eligibility. Eligibility is a political question and no judge will give her what she seeks. She could have spent the last 4 months talking to her representatives, urging them to change the laws, garnering support. Instead she has chosen to play games, waste the resources of her state. By law the state has to certify the Nov ballot by Aug 27th. The court cases will ahve to be expedited, costing IL even more, but heh, she’ll probably get her name in the papers again ( sooooo exciting) God Bless!

  274. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 9, 2010 at 5:23 pm #

    E GLenn Harcsar: The issue concerning Dr. C is to debunk the conspiracy of the cover up among Sestak, Obama, (and Clinton!).

    This web site is for more fringe issues.

  275. avatar
    bob July 9, 2010 at 5:30 pm #

    Charo, where’s the receipt for the driver’s license?

    What are you hiding?

  276. avatar
    obsolete July 9, 2010 at 5:33 pm #

    Reagan administration reportedly offered job for candidate to step down

    Reagan adviser reportedly offered CA senator a job with the administration “if he decided not to seek re-election.” A November 25, 1981, Associated Press article (from the Nexis database) reported that President Reagan’s political adviser Ed Rollins planned to offer former California Sen. S.I. Hayakawa a job in the administration in exchange for not seeking re-election.

    From the AP article:

    Sen. S.I. Hayakawa on Wednesday spurned a Reagan administration suggestion that if he drops out of the crowded Republican Senate primary race in California, President Reagan would find him a job.

    “I’m not interested,” said the 75-year-old Hayakawa.

    “I do not want to be an ambassador, and I do not want an administration post.”

    […]

    In an interview earlier this week, Ed Rollins, who will become the president’s chief political adviser in January, said Hayakawa would be offered an administration post if he decided not to seek re-election. No offer has been made directly to Hayakawa, Rollins said.

    Similarly, Hayakawa said in a statement, “I have not contacted the White House in regard to any administration or ambassadorial post, and they have not been in contact with me.”

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1454&dat=19811126&id=ibcsAAAAIBAJ&sjid=HhQEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5060,5317656

    Has anyone seen Reagan’s long-form? It is likely he was born in Canada, because he never denied that he was.

  277. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett July 9, 2010 at 5:36 pm #

    Ellid: Seriously? What else, did he believe in the World Ice theory and the Black Sun?

    if you ever get a chance, look up “kooks” by Diana Kossy. it’s a great book.

  278. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 9, 2010 at 5:41 pm #

    obsolete: Reagan administration reportedly offered job for candidate to step downReagan adviser reportedly offered CA senator a job with the administration “if he decided not to seek re-election.” A November 25, 1981, Associated Press article (from the Nexis database) reported that President Reagan’s political adviser Ed Rollins planned to offer former California Sen. S.I. Hayakawa a job in the administration in exchange for not seeking re-election.From the AP article:Sen. S.I. Hayakawa on Wednesday spurned a Reagan administration suggestion that if he drops out of the crowded Republican Senate primary race in California, President Reagan would find him a job.“I’m not interested,” said the 75-year-old Hayakawa.“I do not want to be an ambassador, and I do not want an administration post.”[…]In an interview earlier this week, Ed Rollins, who will become the president’s chief political adviser in January, said Hayakawa would be offered an administration post if he decided not to seek re-election. No offer has been made directly to Hayakawa, Rollins said.Similarly, Hayakawa said in a statement, “I have not contacted the White House in regard to any administration or ambassadorial post, and they have not been in contact with me.” http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1454&dat=19811126&id=ibcsAAAAIBAJ&sjid=HhQEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5060,5317656Has anyone seen Reagan’s long-form? It is likely he was born in Canada, because he never denied that he was.

    Obsolete the real question is if Reagan didn’t remember would they still call him a liar?

  279. avatar
    ellid July 9, 2010 at 6:12 pm #

    Richard Mellon Scaife doesn’t debunk conspiracies, He creates them. He’s a revolting excuse for humanity who happens to be filthy rich thanks to his descent from two of Pittsburgh’s richest families. His newspaper is a joke, his Arkansas Project was a smear factory, and he himself is a typical right-wing hypocrite who went through an extremely ugly divorce. No one should take him, or any of his right-wing fronts, seriously.

  280. avatar
    yguy July 9, 2010 at 6:47 pm #

    Jim Cricket: The right winger crazies keep referring to this new black panther party and their hate speech … Ok , my question is: there is a LOT of white supremacy hate speech out there, (hal turner, etc) , how come these hypocrites don’t call attention to that ???

    Because the AG hasn’t abandoned any prosecutions against white supremacists who didn’t even bother defending themselves against charges of violations of the Voting Rights Act?

  281. avatar
    AnotherBird July 9, 2010 at 6:56 pm #

    E GLenn Harcsar:I mentioned this Obama conspiracy several weeks ago–it seems it indeed has legs. Your comment-makers seemed to agree with me then that indeed a crime has been committed, but that “it’s nothing to see-just move along, move along.”

    The nobody has agreed “a crime has been committed.” Why bother continue to spread misinformation? There a very clear rules on what can be offered. Joe Sestak was just “beating his chest” to try to suggest that he was not part of the establishment. You seem to be projecting a cigarette bud into a fire (you are making a bid deal out of nothing).

  282. avatar
    dunstvangeet July 9, 2010 at 7:20 pm #

    Obsolete, what’s even more interesting is that Reagan’s own daughter (Maureen) was running in that Republican Primary, when this came out.

    So, it looks like the primary reason that Reagan wanted him out of the Primary may have been to clear the way for the President’s Daughter to run for the seat.

  283. avatar
    obsolete July 9, 2010 at 7:27 pm #

    dunstvangeet, you are right!
    This shows the Gipper should be retroactively impeached, and anything he signed into law nullified. That means that George H.W. Bush was actually president for those eight years, which means he wasn’t eligible during his four year term, which means Dan Quayle was actually president.
    I give up, I’m having a hard time trying to be as loony as a birther….

  284. avatar
    sfjeff July 9, 2010 at 7:36 pm #

    “Yguy: Because the AG hasn’t abandoned any prosecutions against white supremacists who didn’t even bother defending themselves against charges of violations of the Voting Rights Act?”

    Even more obscure than usual. I am trying to interpret- you are saying the reason why the right wing criticizes Black Supremicists is because the AG isn’t prosecuting them, but isn’t criticizing White Supremicists because the AG is prosecuting them?

    Is the AG really prosecuting all White Supremacists?

    Does the right ever criticize any White Supremacists?

  285. avatar
    misha July 9, 2010 at 7:50 pm #

    sfjeff: Does the right ever criticize any White Supremacists?

    Never. Rand Paul even said that businesses could deny service if they wanted. I don’t know about Rand, but his father Ron Paul is an anti-semite.

  286. avatar
    Black Lion July 9, 2010 at 8:40 pm #

    charo: My comment is in moderation to sluggo. I failed to follow G’s instructions this time and some of my answers are italicized.But, here is a link from the comment.http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=176325 (let’s see if it makes it through moderation)

    Thinking that WND is any kind of a source of news is the scary thing. This article is such a joke. Plus one WND writes the following excerpt, they lose the little credibility they might have had…

    ——————————————————————————–

    ——————————————————————————–
    BORN IN THE USA?

    Senate-seeker wants Obama birth-certificate treatment
    Mexican-born candidate: ‘If I didn’t prove citizenship, I’d be removed from the ballot’

    ——————————————————————————–
    Posted: July 08, 2010
    9:20 pm Eastern

    By Chelsea Schilling
    2010 WorldNetDaily

    A Mexican-born candidate for U.S. Senate said he is considering a lawsuit against the Missouri secretary of state for discrimination because her office forced him to produce a birth certificate but “didn’t make Obama show proof of citizenship” to appear on the ballot.

    Hector Maldonado, 38, a self-described “Lincolnian Republican conservative,” is seeking the Republican nomination for U.S. Senate in Missouri. He was born one of 10 children in Durango, Mexico. His father is a migrant field worker who owns a small hog ranch in Perris, Calif.

    Here’s the movie Obama does not want you to see: The investigation into this unprecedented presidential-eligibility mystery!

    During the following July 5 interview with Karen Berka of Branson Radio Live posted on YouTube, Maldonado explains why he thinks his rights were violated when the secretary of state’s office asked for proof of U.S. citizenship when he filed to run for the Senate:

    Maldonado, a U.S. Army combat veteran who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, explains on his website that he became a U.S. citizen in 1995. But he said Secretary of State Robin Carnahan sent him a letter in May asking him to produce documentation.

    “It said, ‘Hey, you have to prove you’re a citizen.’ I ignored it,” he said. “You know, Obama ignored it, so I figured I could get away with it, too.”

    The audience began laughing, applauding and cheering during his statement.

    Maldonado continued, “But it’s not that simple. I didn’t get away with it. I got a certified letter from Ms. Robin Carnahan’s office saying that if I did not prove that I was a U.S. citizen, then I would be removed from the ballot.”

    He claims Carnahan’s office gave him a deadline of May 12.

    “I got all my documents together: my birth certificate, which is a Mexican birth certificate; my naturalization certificate; my orders sending me to Iraq and Afghanistan; my bronze-star citations and a couple of officer evaluations that say I’m a pretty good and effective leader,” he said. “So I brought all this documentation, and they were only interested in the naturalization certificate. They made a photocopy of it.”

    Maldonado said he asked Carnahan’s office if his citizenship documentation would be public record and available to anyone who wants a copy.

    “They said, oh yes, absolutely, anyone that wants proof, we have it,” he explained. “I said, OK, can you do me a favor then? I’m sure Ms. Carnahan requested the same of Barack Obama when he petitioned to get on the Missouri ballot to become president.”

    He added, “They had no response. They had nothing.”

    (Story continues below)

    Maldonado said he thought about picketing during Obama’s visit to Missouri today to raise money for Carnahan’s U.S. Senate campaign. Obama arrived in Kansas City this morning to make appearances at two fundraising events for Carnahan. Missouri’s primary election will take place on Aug. 3.

    “But I decided something different. I’m actually considering suing Ms. Robin Carnahan because she discriminated against me,” he said. “She has said that her job is to protect Missouri from fraud and corruption. But the fraud that she created if she did not make Mr. Obama show proof of citizenship when he petitioned to get on the Missouri ballot … all the votes that he got should be taken back.”

    He said he hopes citizens of other states sue their own secretaries of state if they cannot show they requested proper documentation from Obama before allowing him to appear on the state ballot.

    “Sooner or later, he’s going to have to prove – based on our demand – that he is in fact a U.S.-born citizen,” he said.

    In an earlier interview on the subject, Maldonado said he spoke with other candidates running for the same office and asked if they had to show proof of citizenship or prove that they were citizens.

    “They said no. I was the only one,” he said. “… I just don’t know, if I were running as a Democrat, would I have to prove the same thing? Or is there a more stringent process for the Republican candidates?”

    The following is a YouTube posting with audio from that interview:

    As WND has reported, Obama himself has still not provided simple, incontrovertible proof of his exact birthplace. The information would be included on his long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate, which Obama has steadfastly refused to release amid a flurry of conflicting reports.

    The White House has only proffered on the Internet a “Certification of Live Birth” to assert he was born in Hawaii. But that document was available for children not born in Hawaii at the time of Obama’s birth.

    Many people remain unaware a child could be born somewhere else and still receive a Hawaii Certification of Live Birth. State law specifically allows “an adult or the legal parents of a minor child” to apply to the health department and, upon unspecified proof, be given the birth document.

    “Anyone can get that (Certification of Live Birth),” Tim Adams, a former Hawaii elections official, told WND in an earlier interview. “They are normally given if you give birth at home or while traveling overseas. We have a lot of Asian population (in Hawaii). It’s quite common for people to come back and get that.”

    Besides his actual birth documentation, documentation that remains concealed for Obama includes kindergarten records, Punahou school records, Occidental College records, Columbia University records, Columbia thesis, Harvard Law School records, Harvard Law Review articles, scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, passport, complete medical records, his files from his years as an Illinois state senator, his Illinois State Bar Association records, any baptism records and adoption records.”

  287. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 9:05 pm #

    Black Lion:
    Thinking that WND is any kind of a source of news is the scary thing.This article is such a joke.Plus one WND writes the following excerpt, they lose the little credibility they might have had…”
    ——————————————————————————–——————————————————————————–
    BORN IN THE USA?Senate-seeker wants Obama birth-certificate treatment
    Mexican-born candidate: If I didn’t prove citizenship, I’d be removed from the ballot’——————————————————————————–
    Posted: July 08, 2010
    9:20 pm EasternBy Chelsea Schilling
    2010 WorldNetDaily
    A Mexican-born candidate for U.S. Senate said he is considering a lawsuit against the Missouri secretary of state for discrimination because her office forced him to produce a birth certificate but “didn’t make Obama show proof of citizenship” to appear on the ballot.
    Hector Maldonado, 38, a self-described “Lincolnian Republican conservative,” is seeking the Republican nomination for U.S. Senate in Missouri. He was born one of 10 children in Durango, Mexico. His father is a migrant field worker who owns a small hog ranch in Perris, Calif.
    Here’s the movie Obama does not want you to see: The investigation into this unprecedented presidential-eligibility mystery!
    During the following July 5 interview with Karen Berka of Branson Radio Live posted on YouTube, Maldonado explains why he thinks his rights were violated when the secretary of state’s office asked for proof of U.S. citizenship when he filed to run for the Senate:
    Maldonado, a U.S. Army combat veteran who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, explains on his website that he became a U.S. citizen in 1995. But he said Secretary of State Robin Carnahan sent him a letter in May asking him to produce documentation.
    “It said, ‘Hey, you have to prove you’re a citizen.’ I ignored it,” he said. “You know, Obama ignored it, so I figured I could get away with it, too.”
    The audience began laughing, applauding and cheering during his statement.
    Maldonado continued, “But it’s not that simple. I didn’t get away with it. I got a certified letter from Ms. Robin Carnahan’s office saying that if I did not prove that I was a U.S. citizen, then I would be removed from the ballot.”
    He claims Carnahan’s office gave him a deadline of May 12.
    “I got all my documents together: my birth certificate, which is a Mexican birth certificate; my naturalization certificate; my orders sending me to Iraq and Afghanistan; my bronze-star citations and a couple of officer evaluations that say I’m a pretty good and effective leader,” he said. “So I brought all this documentation, and they were only interested in the naturalization certificate. They made a photocopy of it.”
    Maldonado said he asked Carnahan’s office if his citizenship documentation would be public record and available to anyone who wants a copy.
    “They said, oh yes, absolutely, anyone that wants proof, we have it,” he explained. “I said, OK, can you do me a favor then? I’m sure Ms. Carnahan requested the same of Barack Obama when he petitioned to get on the Missouri ballot to become president.”
    He added, “They had no response. They had nothing.”
    (Story continues below)Maldonado said he thought about picketing during Obama’s visit to Missouri today to raise money for Carnahan’s U.S. Senate campaign. Obama arrived in Kansas City this morning to make appearances at two fundraising events for Carnahan. Missouri’s primary election will take place on Aug. 3.
    “But I decided something different. I’m actually considering suing Ms. Robin Carnahan because she discriminated against me,” he said. “She has said that her job is to protect Missouri from fraud and corruption. But the fraud that she created if she did not make Mr. Obama show proof of citizenship when he petitioned to get on the Missouri ballot … all the votes that he got should be taken back.”
    He said he hopes citizens of other states sue their own secretaries of state if they cannot show they requested proper documentation from Obama before allowing him to appear on the state ballot.
    “Sooner or later, he’s going to have to prove – based on our demand – that he is in fact a U.S.-born citizen,” he said.In an earlier interview on the subject, Maldonado said he spoke with other candidates running for the same office and asked if they had to show proof of citizenship or prove that they were citizens.“They said no. I was the only one,” he said. “… I just don’t know, if I were running as a Democrat, would I have to prove the same thing? Or is there a more stringent process for the Republican candidates?”The following is a YouTube posting with audio from that interview:As WND has reported, Obama himself has still not provided simple, incontrovertible proof of his exact birthplace. The information would be included on his long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate, which Obama has steadfastly refused to release amid a flurry of conflicting reports.
    The White House has only proffered on the Internet a “Certification of Live Birth” to assert he was born in Hawaii. But that document was available for children not born in Hawaii at the time of Obama’s birth.Many people remain unaware a child could be born somewhere else and still receive a Hawaii Certification of Live Birth. State law specifically allows “an adult or the legal parents of a minor child” to apply to the health department and, upon unspecified proof, be given the birth document.“Anyone can get that (Certification of Live Birth),” Tim Adams, a former Hawaii elections official, told WND in an earlier interview. “They are normally given if you give birth at home or while traveling overseas. We have a lot of Asian population (in Hawaii). It’s quite common for people to come back and get that.”
    Besides his actual birth documentation, documentation that remains concealed for Obama includes kindergarten records, Punahou school records, Occidental College records, Columbia University records, Columbia thesis, Harvard Law School records, Harvard Law Review articles, scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, passport, complete medical records, his files from his years as an Illinois state senator, his Illinois State Bar Association records, any baptism records and adoption records.”

    So, this birther fool is basically a pompous jerk, like most birthers, playing the victim card.

    Anyone who cites WND should be checked for severe mental illness.

  288. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 9:07 pm #

    yguy:
    Because the AG hasn’t abandoned any prosecutions against white supremacists who didn’t even bother defending themselves against charges of violations of the Voting Rights Act?

    Where’s your proof the President refused to release any records? You keep running off to hide.

  289. avatar
    obsolete July 9, 2010 at 9:09 pm #

    Wow,
    It is so easy for anyone to get a Hawaiian COLB, just based on their word, that I’m not surprised that there have been nearly 16 million of them mailed out recently, mostly to people in the southwest with Hispanic sounding last names. After all, anyone can get one, right? Guess what, there are no more illegal immigrants! They all have gotten Hawaiian COLBs!
    Wait, you mean that hasn’t happened? I wonder why not….

  290. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 9:24 pm #

    obsolete: Wow,
    It is so easy for anyone to get a Hawaiian COLB, just based on their word, that I’m not surprised that there have been nearly 16 million of them mailed out recently, mostly to people in the southwest with Hispanic sounding last names. After all, anyone can get one, right? Guess what, there are no more illegal immigrants! They all have gotten Hawaiian COLBs!
    Wait, you mean that hasn’t happened? I wonder why not….

    Not only that but Iran just declared that every American alive and everyone yet to be born has official Iranian citizenship giving every U.S. citizen dual citizenship with Iran. There will never be another eligible Presidential candidate ever again.

    Checkmate. It was just that easy.

  291. avatar
    Bovril July 9, 2010 at 9:27 pm #

    Yguy

    Still waiting for you to show yoy have an iota of spine, answer the question posed

    So, Yguy, do tell.

    You want, nay demand to see the mystical long form as you have “issues” with the short one.

    What precisely IS it you expect to see in said form that differs from the posted COLB.

    Please, enquiring minds need to know, you have never ACTUALLY illuminated our darkness with your wisdom in this area, really, I and others need to know.

    What is your requirement, what is it you need to see and will the “long form” suffice.

    No squirming now, simple request, what is or are the elements that would calm your fevered mind.

    Come on Yguy man up…..if you can

  292. avatar
    Black Lion July 9, 2010 at 9:30 pm #

    More nonsense from old friend Polarik….I guess like most birthers he doesn’t know when to give it up….

    To: rosettasister; TigersEye
    Let me put it another way:

    I have, on good authority, from those who actually were in the Class of 1979 at Punahou, that Obama was not in it.

    IMHO, the SI interview was totally staged: it was like a lawyer training his client on what to say and what to avoid saying.

    But, don’t let that interfere with your day.

    I’m off.

    225 posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 10:57:31 AM by Polarik

    Although some at FR don’t trust Polarik…

    To: rosettasister
    With all due respect, Polarik, when you spout stuff like you did, it really makes us wonder.

    Retraction?

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2236188/replies?c=41

    221 posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 5:46:09 PM by rosettasister

    And Polarik’s response…

    To: rosettasister
    According to his biography, in 1972, Obama enrolled in Punahou’s fifth grade. In 1979, he is said to have graduated Punahou. Basically, I have witnesses who say he never was in the graduating senior class of 1979 – but, as for his time at the elementary and middle school levels, there are huge gaps in time.

    His time in Indonesia is critical because he was known as Barry Soetoro and a classmate who remembers him said that “Barry was previously quite religious in Islam.”

    We heard this crap from the Obama campaign that Obama Sr. was not a “practicing Muslim.” We heard the same crap about Lolo Soetoro being a “secular Muslim.”

    The truth is that Barry is not a Muslim apostate who converted to Chistianity – he is a dissimulating Muslim who joined a “black liberation church” that is connected to the Nation of Islam ideologically, if not literally.

    Both hate white America.

    Throughout the campaign of 2008, Obama and his handlers made sure to jump down the throats of anyone even mentioning Muslim and Obama in the same sentence.

    Politifact did that to the exclusion of all else – including the total avoidance of discussing where Obama was born. They started the “Muhammed is Obama’s middle name” rumor and used it to lie about him.

    Then again, Politifact, Factcheck, Hawaii DOH, and the Obama Campaign/Administration are serial liars and frauds. That fact does not bode well for those who rely on them to support their contentions that Obama was born in Hawaii and was never a “practicing” Muslim.

    227 posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 12:10:40 PM by Polarik

    To: TigersEye; rosettasister
    No, I was not implying that. The records are missing. Eye witnesses who were in the Class of 79 told me that Obama was not there.

    I was thinking #21 should be rewritten as “Punahou records missing and Obama, too.”

    g

    229 posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 5:57:15 PM by Polarik

    To: TigersEye; Polarik
    http://dakotatoday.typepad.com/dakotatoday/2010/05/mitchell-daily-republic-saturday-sunday-may-15-16-2010-front-page–has-an-interesting-story-about-a-friend-of-a-south-d.html

    For about six years, Nordyke’s daughters attended school with Obama at the Punahou School, a school of about 4,000 geared for the college-bound, which Nordyke called “the best school in Hawaii.”

    “about six years”

    of course I know the story about Obama being adopted by his Indonesian stepfather and I’ve seen the record which lists Obama’s religion as “Muslim”

    I remember at the time thinking who cares if Obama spent a portion of his childhood practicing Islam, what bothered me is that he would lie about it.

    As far as the Punahou records, and the gaps, what is being implied here?

    What could possibly be revealed that is “revealing”

    231 posted on Friday, July 09, 2010 12:50:57 PM by rosettasister

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2545580/posts?page=225#225

  293. avatar
    SluggoJD July 9, 2010 at 9:30 pm #

    obsolete: Wow,
    It is so easy for anyone to get a Hawaiian COLB, just based on their word, that I’m not surprised that there have been nearly 16 million of them mailed out recently, mostly to people in the southwest with Hispanic sounding last names. After all, anyone can get one, right? Guess what, there are no more illegal immigrants! They all have gotten Hawaiian COLBs!
    Wait, you mean that hasn’t happened? I wonder why not….

    Cue the Jeopardy music!

    Outstanding comment.

  294. avatar
    Black Lion July 9, 2010 at 9:45 pm #

    Interesting article from the AP…

    “WASHINGTON — Too many Republican leaders are acquiescing to a poisonous “demagoguery” that threatens the party’s long-term credibility, says a veteran GOP House member who was defeated in South Carolina’s primary last month.

    While not naming names, 12-year incumbent Rep. Bob Inglis suggested in interviews with The Associated Press that tea party favorites such as former vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin and right-wing talk show hosts like Glenn Beck are the culprits.

    He cited a claim made famous by Palin that the Democratic health care bill would create “death panels” to decide whether elderly or sick people should get care.

    “There were no death panels in the bill … and to encourage that kind of fear is just the lowest form of political leadership. It’s not leadership. It’s demagoguery,” said Inglis, one of three Republican incumbents who have lost their seats in Congress to primary and state party convention challengers this year.

    “It’s a real concern, because I think what we’re doing is dividing the country into partisan camps that really look a lot like Shia and Sunni,” he said, referring to the two predominant Islamic denominations that have feuded for centuries. “It’s very difficult to come together to find solutions.”

    Inglis’ refusal to join in on the Obama-bashing of the far right played a big role in his landslide defeat on June 22. Leading up to the election, he frequently challenged voters who questioned the president’s citizenship or patriotism. At one town hall meeting, he was jeered for saying that Beck, a Fox News Channel host, is a divisive fearmonger.

    In his primary runoff against prosecutor Trey Gowdy, Inglis failed to break 30 percent, an improbably low result for a sitting incumbent not embroiled in scandal.

    Inglis said he was shocked during the health care votes as he watched protesters jeering Rep. John Lewis, a Georgia Democrat who was beaten as a leading civil rights activist in the 1960s.

    Inglis said he was too far away during the jeering incident to hear whether the protesters shouted racial epithets, as Lewis and other black lawmakers have claimed. But Inglis said the behavior was threatening and abusive.

    “I caught him at the door and said, ‘John, I guess you’ve been here before,'” Inglis said.

    Inglis, 50, who calls himself a Jack Kemp disciple because he has emphasized outreach to minorities as the late Republican congressman did, thinks racism is a part of the vitriol directed at President Barack Obama.

    “I love the South. I’m a Southerner. But I can feel it,” he said.

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gMVWMPMusNiWy1BWNNaU9V16LrDwD9GRHQH03

  295. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 9:55 pm #

    Black Lion: Interesting article from the AP…“WASHINGTON — Too many Republican leaders are acquiescing to a poisonous “demagoguery” that threatens the party’s long-term credibility, says a veteran GOP House member who was defeated in South Carolina’s primary last month.While not naming names, 12-year incumbent Rep. Bob Inglis suggested in interviews with The Associated Press that tea party favorites such as former vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin and right-wing talk show hosts like Glenn Beck are the culprits.He cited a claim made famous by Palin that the Democratic health care bill would create “death panels” to decide whether elderly or sick people should get care.“There were no death panels in the bill … and to encourage that kind of fear is just the lowest form of political leadership. It’s not leadership. It’s demagoguery,” said Inglis, one of three Republican incumbents who have lost their seats in Congress to primary and state party convention challengers this year.“It’s a real concern, because I think what we’re doing is dividing the country into partisan camps that really look a lot like Shia and Sunni,” he said, referring to the two predominant Islamic denominations that have feuded for centuries. “It’s very difficult to come together to find solutions.”Inglis’ refusal to join in on the Obama-bashing of the far right played a big role in his landslide defeat on June 22. Leading up to the election, he frequently challenged voters who questioned the president’s citizenship or patriotism. At one town hall meeting, he was jeered for saying that Beck, a Fox News Channel host, is a divisive fearmonger.In his primary runoff against prosecutor Trey Gowdy, Inglis failed to break 30 percent, an improbably low result for a sitting incumbent not embroiled in scandal.Inglis said he was shocked during the health care votes as he watched protesters jeering Rep. John Lewis, a Georgia Democrat who was beaten as a leading civil rights activist in the 1960s.Inglis said he was too far away during the jeering incident to hear whether the protesters shouted racial epithets, as Lewis and other black lawmakers have claimed. But Inglis said the behavior was threatening and abusive.“I caught him at the door and said, ‘John, I guess you’ve been here before,’” Inglis said.Inglis, 50, who calls himself a Jack Kemp disciple because he has emphasized outreach to minorities as the late Republican congressman did, thinks racism is a part of the vitriol directed at President Barack Obama.“I love the South. I’m a Southerner. But I can feel it,” he said.http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gMVWMPMusNiWy1BWNNaU9V16LrDwD9GRHQH03

    Shia and Sunni. Chilling analogy.

  296. avatar
    misha July 9, 2010 at 9:57 pm #

    obsolete: Wow,It is so easy for anyone to get a Hawaiian COLB, just based on their word, that I’m not surprised that there have been nearly 16 million of them mailed out recently, mostly to people in the southwest with Hispanic sounding last names. After all, anyone can get one, right? Guess what, there are no more illegal immigrants! They all have gotten Hawaiian COLBs!Wait, you mean that hasn’t happened? I wonder why not….

    I sent an e-mail to Bill Keller and to Paul Jensen, saying that because they claim anyone can get a Hawaiian COLB by filling out a form. all they have to do is get one for themselves, prove it to me, and I’ll donate to their cause.

    The only one I heard from was Keller, who said Hawaii no longer gives out a COLB to anyone, just a regular BC, so he can’t get one. Then he said I should try to get Obama’s original BC “because there’s $10,000 in it for you.”

    He then told me he is praying for me, and he will be sure I am “richly blessed.” Yuck. My skin crawls thinking about that.

    He also has a racket going that reminds me of National Lampoon’s Radio Hour’s Robbery of the Air. He actually asks people to send him their unwanted jewlery, and they’ll get a check for 10% of the melt down value.

    Pardon me while I roll on the floor.

  297. avatar
    yguy July 9, 2010 at 10:00 pm #

    sfjeff:
    Is the AG really prosecuting all White Supremacists?

    I don’t know of any such people whose acts of voter intimidation at a polling place have been recorded and posted on youtube, much less any such cases in which the DOJ got a default judgment against the defendant and subsequently dropped the case.

    Does the right ever criticize any White Supremacists?

    They are politically inconsequential at this time – especially considering we don’t have a President who spent 20 years under the ecclesiastical authority of the white supremacist counterpart of the little black Hitler who calls himself Jeremiah Wright.

  298. avatar
    misha July 9, 2010 at 10:01 pm #

    Majority Will: Shia and Sunni. Chilling analogy.

    And accurate.

  299. avatar
    yguy July 9, 2010 at 10:03 pm #

    Majority Will:
    Where’s your proof the President refused to release any records? You keep running off to hide.

    Failing to answer idiotic questions is not hiding.

  300. avatar
    charo July 9, 2010 at 10:05 pm #

    bob: Charo, where’s the receipt for the driver’s license?What are you hiding?

    It was a yes no question: is there a receipt or not (for the COLB, not the driver’s license).

    Phil asked for all the details (no harm in asking). I did not.

    Also, I am not running for the highest office in the land.

    I am only answering your question and not rehashing the whole thing again.

  301. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 10:06 pm #

    yguy:
    I don’t know of any such people whose acts of voter intimidation at a polling place have been recorded and posted on youtube, much less any such cases in which the DOJ got a default judgment against the defendant and subsequently dropped the case.
    They are politically inconsequential at this time – especially considering we don’t have a President who spent 20 years under the ecclesiastical authority of the white supremacist counterpart of the little black Hitler who calls himself Jeremiah Wright.

    Where’s your proof the President actually refused to release any personal records? You’ve made the claim repeatedly so must have solid evidence like a direct quote from the President.

    You’re not lying are you? Do you only answer questions that fit your personal version of the truth?

  302. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 10:08 pm #

    yguy:
    Failing to answer idiotic questions is not hiding.

    So you were lying. Thanks for admitting as much. I thought you were going to be cowardly about it again. Kudos.

  303. avatar
    charo July 9, 2010 at 10:08 pm #

    Black Lion: Thinking that WND is any kind of a source of news is the scary thing. This article is such a joke. Plus one WND writes the following excerpt, they lose the little credibility they might have had…

    I never said it was a news source. The article is taken from a youtube video, not any independent interviewing.

  304. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 10:10 pm #

    yguy:
    Failing to answer idiotic questions is not hiding.

    And it’s not a refusal, is it?

    Oops. You’re trapped in your own illogic. Bazinga.

  305. avatar
    misha July 9, 2010 at 10:15 pm #

    yguy: They are politically inconsequential at this time – especially considering we don’t have a President who spent 20 years under the ecclesiastical authority of the white supremacist counterpart of the little black Hitler who calls himself Jeremiah Wright.

    Inconsequential? Tim Adams is making a lot of noise. There were several cross burnings near where I lived in Maryland, which made the Washington Post. The Post reporter said she spotted a county employee at the burning, and he told her they “don’t allow a Jew bitch,” and told her to leave.

    Wright is angry about the way the descendants of slaves have been treated, and I don’t blame him. Slaves’ descendants did not have civil rights until 1964, 100 years after emancipation. I suggest you learn why Wright is angry. It’s nothing to be proud of.

    Remember, during slavery, children were sold from their parents. When Schwerner and Goodman were murdered, my mother and grandfather were terrified. Those Klan people only got 10 years for 3 murders.

  306. avatar
    yguy July 9, 2010 at 10:16 pm #

    Majority Will:
    So you were lying.

    No, that’s what you’re doing.

  307. avatar
    charo July 9, 2010 at 10:16 pm #

    kimba: “Obama played hardball in first Chicago campaign…”

    That was the title of the CNN article, Kimba.

  308. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 10:17 pm #

    charo:
    It was a yes no question:is there a receipt or not (for the COLB, not the driver’s license).Phil asked for all the details (no harm in asking).I did not.Also, I am not running for the highest office in the land.I am only answering your question and not rehashing the whole thing again.

    “I am not running for the highest office in the land.”

    Whew! That’s a relief! 😉

    Under current U.S. law, are there varied or different rules or levels of protection for personal privacy based on any standard other than being a U.S. citizen?

    Are famous people, rich people, military officers or politicians under a different set of privacy laws?

    Or is it just this President?

  309. avatar
    charo July 9, 2010 at 10:18 pm #

    Addendum

    kimba: “Obama played hardball in first Chicago campaign…”

    Waaaah Obama.

  310. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 10:20 pm #

    yguy:
    No, that’s what you’re doing.

    Ah yes. The old Rubber v. Glue defense. Always convincing!

    I don’t understand why you can’t honestly defend the claims that you post repeatedly.

  311. avatar
    charo July 9, 2010 at 10:25 pm #

    Majority Will:
    “I am not running for the highest office in the land.”Whew! That’s a relief!
    Under current U.S. law, are there varied or different rules or levels of protection for personal privacy based on any standard other than being a U.S. citizen?Are famous people, rich people, military officers or politicians under a different set of privacy laws?Or is it just this President?

    You got to me. I’ll just agree to whatever you say, whether true or not. You’re right! Good points all! You know me better than anyone, like an empath. How could I have been so blind? I suppose I need to be executed, or at least sterilized and my children as well because we just pollute society.

  312. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 10:25 pm #

    yguy:
    He doesn’t have to, as that is their default status by law. He can, however, according to HI law, UNseal the original just as he supposedly did for the COLB; and this he has refused to do.

    “. . . and this he has refused to do.”

    Then you must have proof of the President refusing – a quote, a sound bite, something where he actually said no.

    You do, right?

  313. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 10:27 pm #

    charo:
    You got to me.I’ll just agree to whatever you say, whether true or not.You’re right!Good points all!You know me better than anyone, like an empath.How could I have been so blind?I suppose I need to be executed, or at least sterilized and my children as well because we just pollute society.

    That’s some excellent sarcasm. Well done. [golf clap]

  314. avatar
    Bovril July 9, 2010 at 10:34 pm #

    Come on Yguy, real simple question posted, man up if you can or shall you simply perpetuate your all to well know FAIL at Rational.

    Answer the question I posted or say why you can’t.

  315. avatar
    yguy July 9, 2010 at 10:35 pm #

    misha:
    Wright is angry about the way the descendants of slaves have been treated,

    No he isn’t. If he were, he’d be directing his anger at white liberals who pretend to love blacks because their victim status translates to political power, and at race hustlers like Jackson, Sharpton and himself who get filthy rich by catering to everything that’s despicable in their followers.

    and I don’t blame him.

    I’ll just bet you don’t. 🙂

    Slaves’ descendants did not have civil rights until 1964

    And for the most part they’ve been going backwards ever since, thanks to people like you who don’t understand that political rights are worse than useless without the personal freedom born of morality, which is inimical to modern liberalism.

    For the education you so clearly need in this matter, go to bondinfo.org

  316. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 10:36 pm #

    charo: Re: Miss Tickly

    This part of the thread was fun:

    “Perhaps Miss Tickly was too close to the truth.

    In my opinion, it appears that this is another instance of something I’ve said many times:

    Those who can’t handle the truth,
    try to silence those who speak it.”

    http://wtpotus.wordpress.com/2009/11/08/what-happened-to-miss-ticklys-blog/

    When in doubt, make it a conspiracy. The Birther Way.™

  317. avatar
    yguy July 9, 2010 at 10:41 pm #

    Majority Will:
    I don’t understand why you can’t honestly defend the claims that you post repeatedly.

    Actually, I never do anything else. Your failure to apprehend this, which arises from your antipathy for inconvenient truths, is not my problem.

  318. avatar
    SluggoJD July 9, 2010 at 10:44 pm #

    Charo and yguy are sockpuppets for two of Lucas’ little goon squad.

    If you review the postings there, you can see them laugh about spreading fires here, and talking about what goes on here. The same talking points move back and forth.

    Dr. C, since Lucas does not allow the truth at his site, isn’t it time his goons are banned on site?

  319. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 10:55 pm #

    yguy:
    Actually, I never do anything else. Your failure to apprehend this, which arises from your antipathy for inconvenient truths, is not my problem.

    You stopped making sense before your first post and “apprehend”? My failure to arrest this?

    “Actually, I never do anything else.”

    O.K. So put your putative integrity where your non-stop mouth is.

    Where’s your credible evidence that the President refused to release his personal information? Was it a press conference? State of the Union address? Media interview?

  320. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 10:58 pm #

    SluggoJD: Charo and yguy are sockpuppets for two of Lucas’ little goon squad.If you review the postings there, you can see them laugh about spreading fires here, and talking about what goes on here.The same talking points move back and forth.Dr. C, since Lucas does not allow the truth at his site, isn’t it time his goons are banned on site?

    A few hundred threads shy of a functional sock puppet?

  321. avatar
    SluggoJD July 9, 2010 at 11:08 pm #

    BTW, may I have the normal and sane folks attention for a moment?

    1. At Lucas’ goon site, mocorrupt (aka James, Paully, BIRTHER, Kahunah, et al) acts like he knows something about law…and of course, the other goons praise him often.

    Well, let’s put that BS to rest – mocorrupt gets his legal advice by one of the biggest nutcases on the internets – the fake Attorney General of Birtherland, Paul Andrew Mitchell.

    Here’s the proof! Just look for “Jim.” And please notice the name of the absurd Yahoo group, and check out some of the other nutcases lol.

    2. But that’s not all! Please note who is included in Jim’s small email group there – brianhicksmail. And where does that lead us? lol

    To Captain May! Yes, Captain May, the fake commander of the fake Ghost Troop, who has been putting out absurd, insane posts for years about all his super secret missions that everyone knows about.

    3. Brianhicksmail also leads us to a solid connection between the Lucas goon club, and that far right nutcase paradise known as APFN!

    Why oh why is APFN posting a private email argument between two nutcases, mocorrupt (Jim) and “Ralph…………?”

    I for one want to know.

    These “gnomes” really are nutcases!

  322. avatar
    Majority Will July 9, 2010 at 11:19 pm #

    SluggoJD: BTW, may I have the normal and sane folks attention for a moment?1.At Lucas’ goon site, mocorrupt (aka James, Paully, BIRTHER, Kahunah, et al) acts like he knows something about law…and of course, the other goons praise him often.Well, let’s put that BS to rest – mocorrupt gets his legal advice by one of the biggest nutcases on the internets – the fake Attorney General of Birtherland, Paul Andrew Mitchell.Here’s the proof!Just look for “Jim.”And please notice the name of the absurd Yahoo group, and check out some of the other nutcases lol.2.But that’s not all!Please note who is included in Jim’s small email group there – brianhicksmail.And where does that lead us? lolTo Captain May!Yes, Captain May, the fake commander of the fake Ghost Troop, who has been putting out absurd, insane posts for years about all his super secret missions that everyone knows about.3.Brianhicksmail also leads us to a solid connection between the Lucas goon club, and that far right nutcase paradise known as APFN!Why oh why is APFN posting a private email argument between two nutcases, mocorrupt (Jim) and “Ralph…………?”I for one want to know.These “gnomes” really are nutcases!

    “These “gnomes” really are nutcases!”

    And definitely not lawn worthy. The bizarre, drum beating, fear mongering threads on these heavily censored birther blogs is a great example of birther hypocrisy and chiropteran excrement delusion.

  323. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 9, 2010 at 11:45 pm #

    SluggoJD: Dr. C, since Lucas does not allow the truth at his site, isn’t it time his goons are banned on site?

    No. I’m not like them.

  324. avatar
    misha July 9, 2010 at 11:49 pm #

    yguy: And for the most part they’ve been going backwards ever since, thanks to people like you who don’t understand that political rights are worse than useless without the personal freedom born of morality, which is inimical to modern liberalism.For the education you so clearly need in this matter, go to bondinfo.org

    I went to bondinfo, which is the usual boilerplate. They also have a link to Dennis Prager. If there is anything I can’t stand, it’s a Jew who sucks up to evangelicals.

    “which is inimical to modern liberalism” I’m one of those Jewish New York liberals you read about. True story: my grandfather gave up being a rabbi to bootleg. Also true: my mother let girlfriends stay overnight.

    Eat your heart out.

  325. avatar
    charo July 9, 2010 at 11:52 pm #

    Majority Will: “Perhaps Miss Tickly was too close to the truth.

    I never said that. I have nothing do with Lucas Smith. When I said Lucas who awhile back, I thought the innuendo was clear, as in I could care less about him. Sluggo is lying about me. Outright lying.

  326. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 12:03 am #

    charo:
    I never said that.I have nothing do with Lucas Smith.When I said Lucas who awhile back, I thought the innuendo was clear, as in I could care less about him. Sluggo is lying about me.Outright lying.

    You’re mixing threads and intention. Again.

  327. avatar
    SluggoJD July 10, 2010 at 12:07 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    No. I’m not like them.

    You’re just too nice!

  328. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 12:08 am #

    SluggoJD: Dr. C, since Lucas does not allow the truth at his site, isn’t it time his goons are banned on site?

    But if we censored everyone, only molds, yeast, mushrooms, and toadstools and their inevitable spores would be in charge.

  329. avatar
    SluggoJD July 10, 2010 at 12:08 am #

    charo:
    I never said that.I have nothing do with Lucas Smith.When I said Lucas who awhile back, I thought the innuendo was clear, as in I could care less about him. Sluggo is lying about me.Outright lying.

    I’m not a Cylon!

    I’m not a Cylon!

  330. avatar
    obsolete July 10, 2010 at 12:12 am #

    The “little black Hitler who calls himself Jeremiah Wright”, as you refer to him, is a decorated Marine veteran who aided President Lyndon Johnson in surgery. I have read that he also operated on John McCain’s father, which is why he was mostly off limits during the election for McCain. (I did not save the link about McCain’s pop, maybe someone else has it?)
    But rather than viewing him as a complex and, at times, heroic American, he is just another black boogeyman to the racist right & birther scum. They hate blacks who are intelligent and succeed, and even moreso if they are veterans.
    May they never regain power.

  331. avatar
    bob July 10, 2010 at 4:08 am #

    charo: I am only answering your question and not rehashing the whole thing again.

    You said you have no problem showing the receipt for your driver’s license. So where is it?

    Your failure to respond to this very simple request is quite suspicious .

  332. avatar
    bob July 10, 2010 at 4:10 am #

    yguy: I don’t know of any such people whose acts of voter intimidation at a polling place have been recorded and posted on youtube, much less any such cases in which the DOJ got a default judgment against the defendant and subsequently dropped the case.

    You are aware, of course, that the DoJ did in fact obtain an injunction against the person weilding the nightstick? Is that “dropping the case”?

  333. avatar
    dunstvangeet July 10, 2010 at 5:13 am #

    yguy:
    Failing to answer idiotic questions is not hiding.

    So, we agree that Obama has not hidden anything…

  334. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 7:21 am #

    dunstvangeet:
    So, we agree that Obama has not hidden anything…

    Yguy obviously despises logic. At least, real world logic.

  335. avatar
    ellid July 10, 2010 at 8:40 am #

    Y’know, I liked Charo a lot better when she stuck to playing flamenco guitar and palling around with Xavier Cugat.

  336. avatar
    misha July 10, 2010 at 9:39 am #

    ellid: Y’know, I liked Charo a lot better when she stuck to playing flamenco guitar and palling around with Xavier Cugat.

    cuchi-cuchi

  337. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 10:07 am #

    ellid: Y’know, I liked Charo a lot better when she stuck to playing flamenco guitar and palling around with Xavier Cugat.

    And she has the honorable distinction of the most guest appearances on The Love Boat.

  338. avatar
    Keith July 10, 2010 at 10:11 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): His daughter was a candidate in that race as well as Pete Wilson and others.

    I love Pete Wilson. He was mayor of San Diego when I lived there. He was up to his neck in the J. David Ponzi scheme, and as Governor was closely connected to the Pioneer Mortgage Ponzi scheme principles. There must be something in the water in San Diego that attracts Ponzi schemers and Pete Wilson together. Does he have any connection to PinnFund too?

  339. avatar
    yguy July 10, 2010 at 10:28 am #

    charo:
    Sluggo is lying about me.Outright lying.

    And me as well…but what else can he do?

    He can’t find fault with what I say, so he has to try to find fault with what I am. To that end, he makes an effigy of me, burns it and declares victory.

  340. avatar
    yguy July 10, 2010 at 10:32 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    No. I’m not like them.

    Sluggo is, though. He’s the mirror image of what he hates.

  341. avatar
    Keith July 10, 2010 at 10:41 am #

    ellid: Y’know, I liked Charo a lot better when she stuck to playing flamenco guitar and palling around with Xavier Cugat.

    And she was great on Jerry Lewis’ Telethon. “It” almost happened!

    (but she must have been very carefully taped in).

  342. avatar
    yguy July 10, 2010 at 10:47 am #

    obsolete: The “little black Hitler who calls himself Jeremiah Wright”, as you refer to him, is a decorated Marine veteran

    And Benedict Arnold was a hero of the Revolutionary War until he turned traitor. What’s your point?

    who aided President Lyndon Johnson in surgery. I have read that he also operated on John McCain’s father,

    I don’t care if he raised them both from the dead. He’s a hate-mongering bigot.

    They hate blacks who are intelligent and succeed,

    What makes you think I hate Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams or Thomas Sowell?

    and even moreso if they are veterans.

    What makes you think I hate Allen West?

  343. avatar
    charo July 10, 2010 at 10:49 am #

    misha 07. May, 2010 at 12:15 pm

    Charo: 1 – Why did you name yourself after the woman who married Xavier Cugat?

    charo 07. May, 2010 at 2:04 pm #

    First name origin & meaning:

    Latin: A flower

    My daughter’s name has a similar spelling, although different pronunciation: Chiara (pronounced Key ARE ah). A nice older lady used to call her Char-ah (as in CHARcoal).

    Charo seemed like just as good a screen name as any other, although the coochie-coochie persona may be problematic.

    G 07. May, 2010 at 2:27 pm #

    Wow. Thanks for the explanation of the names.

    Chiara is a beautiful name, especially when pronounced with the hard ‘K’. Does that also mean flower or something else?

    Nice to know that charo means flower. I’m surprised my mind didn’t immediately think of the coochie-coochie latin singer/dancer who goes by that name! LOL! Maybe because she hasn’t been in the news much for the past few decades. Last I heard, she was doing her act in Las Vegas & on boat cruises.

  344. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 10:50 am #

    yguy:
    Sluggo is, though. He’s the mirror image of what he hates.

    Isn’t that a bit hypocritical?

  345. avatar
    yguy July 10, 2010 at 10:50 am #

    bob:
    You are aware, of course, that the DoJ did in fact obtain an injunction against the person weilding the nightstick?

    Yeah, he has to keep away from that specific polling place. Whooptydamndoo.

    Is that “dropping the case”?

    Pretty much, yeah.

  346. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 10:52 am #

    yguy:
    And me as well…but what else can he do?He can’t find fault with what I say, so he has to try to find fault with what I am. To that end, he makes an effigy of me, burns it and declares victory.

    The victim card. So predictable and pathetic. Grow a pair.

  347. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 10:55 am #

    yguy:
    He can’t find fault with what I say, so he has to try to find fault with what I am.

    That’s a huge, steaming pile of excrement.

  348. avatar
    yguy July 10, 2010 at 10:57 am #

    Majority Will:
    Isn’t that a bit hypocritical?

    Nothing hypocritical about stating the obvious.

  349. avatar
    yguy July 10, 2010 at 10:59 am #

    Majority Will:
    The victim card.

    Nope, just stating the facts.

    So predictable and pathetic.

    So is lying about your opponents. Wouldn’t you agree?

  350. avatar
    Northland10 July 10, 2010 at 11:31 am #

    yguy: He’s a hate-mongering bigot.

    Have you ever heard one of his entire sermons from beginning to end? Did you ever listen beyond a very short clip of some of the more animated rhetoric he employs?

    I myself have heard some full sermons from Dr. Wright and realize the “hate-mongering” statements you have heard are minor preaching styles and not the main subject of the sermon (and, btw, he also is just as hard on the gangbangers). Most sermons I have listened to come back to the theme of growing and trusting in God and Christ to defeat the “enemy” in their life. That “enemy” is drugs, poverty, crime, addiction and despair that is all around them in the Englewood neighborhood of Chicago. This life is one that I, from a generally comfortable upbringing, and I suspect you, would never understand. He is preaching to his congregation to not be the victim but to pull themselves up and create for themselves and their community pride in who they are, where they come from and what they can accomplish. Yes, he is preaching responsibility, which I thought was a conservative value?

    Yguy, do you have a problem with his congregation making themselves and the community around them better? Do you have a problem with responsibility? Would you rather they just stay in their place?

  351. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 11:33 am #

    Northland10:
    Would you rather they just stay in their place?

    I think you have your answer.

  352. avatar
    Reality Check July 10, 2010 at 11:41 am #

    Keith: And she was great on Jerry Lewis’ Telethon. “It” almost happened!

    (but she must have been very carefully taped in).

    i assume you are speaking of the this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Vf_G-0X9X8&NR=1 in 2000 and not the 2009 show?

  353. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 11:41 am #

    So maybe there should be a Whites Only America and one for Everyone Else. I’m sure the Everyone Else America will accept refugees.

    Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
    With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
    Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
    A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
    Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
    Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
    Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
    The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
    “Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
    With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
    – Emma Lazarus

  354. avatar
    yguy July 10, 2010 at 12:07 pm #

    Northland10:
    Have you ever heard one of his entire sermons from beginning to end?Did you ever listen beyond a very short clip of some of the more animated rhetoric he employs?

    I’ve never listened to one of Fred Phelps’ sermons either, and I don’t need to, to know he’s a bigot.

    Yguy, do you have a problem with his congregation making themselves and the community around them better?

    He’s not doing that. He’s inspiring them to become what they hate.

    Would you rather they just stay in their place?

    Would you rather your wife learn to accept the beatings you give her as just punishment?

  355. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 12:11 pm #

    yguy:

    Would you rather your wife learn to accept the beatings you give her as just punishment?

    Classy!

  356. avatar
    Northland10 July 10, 2010 at 12:14 pm #

    yguy: I’ve never listened to one of Fred Phelps’ sermons either, and I don’t need to, to know he’s a bigot.

    He’s not doing that. He’s inspiring them to become what they hate.

    I see you sit in judgment of everybody and know exactly what they are doing even though you actually have not listened to them. Unbelievable.

    And unlike you, I despise Fred Phelps and his group because I have actually read some of his… (redacted by Northland10 – unable to finish due to language use).

  357. avatar
    Northland10 July 10, 2010 at 12:36 pm #

    In an attempt to steer back to “Spinning Dr. Fukino,” we have covered many times what might be considered lying or just misspeaking. James refers to various Hawaii statements as lying where some statements may just be an error or rash. It really comes down to the intent to deceive in your words. You could speak falsehoods without lying if you did not know any better and did not have the intent to deceive anyone (or yourself). Now they question to ask may be, if we refuse to learn the details of facts we know to exist, and continue to make the same false statements, are we attempting to deceive since we know there are facts that may contradict us?

    From St. Augustine’s On Lying (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1312.htm):

    For from the sense of his own mind, not from the verity or falsity of the things themselves, is he to be judged to lie or not to lie. Therefore he who utters a false thing for a true, which however he opines to be true, may be called erring and rash: but he is not rightly said to lie; because he has not a double heart when he utters it, neither does he wish to deceive, but is deceived. But the fault of him who lies, is, the desire of deceiving in the uttering of his mind; whether he do deceive, in that he is believed when uttering the false thing; or whether he do not deceive, either in that he is not believed, or in that he utters a true thing with will to deceive, which he does not think to be true: wherein being believed, he does not deceive though it was his will to deceive: except that he deceives in so far as he is thought to know or think as he utters.

  358. avatar
    bob July 10, 2010 at 1:07 pm #

    yguy: Yeah, he has to keep away from that specific polling place. Whooptydamndoo.

    And that was the exact relief desired by the Bush DoJ, which originally filed the case.

    Pretty much, yeah.

    So you acknowledge that the case was, in fact, not dismissed.

    Was your prior statement a lie, or merely an error?

  359. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 10, 2010 at 1:21 pm #

    Northland10 (quoting St. Augustine): For from the sense of his own mind, not from the verity or falsity of the things themselves, is he to be judged to lie or not to lie.

    And it for this reason that I do not use the word “lie” hastily. This is also the standard truthfulness to which I try to hold myself, but also not to speak rashly or without good supporting information — that last being the hardest of the lot.

  360. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 1:38 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    And it for this reason that I do not use the word “lie” hastily. This is also the standard truthfulness to which I try to hold myself, but also not to speak rashly or without good supporting information — that last being the hardest of the lot.

    Making repeated and numerous hypothetical or speculative claims without credible evidence about people or events with the motive to disparage or destroy someone’s reputation is a form of lying and is exhibited all too frequently by WND and birther blogs for profit and political gain and by individual birthers out of desperation.

  361. avatar
    Northland10 July 10, 2010 at 1:39 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: but also not to speak rashly or without good supporting information — that last being the hardest of the lot.

    Amen!!!

  362. avatar
    yguy July 10, 2010 at 2:16 pm #

    bob:
    So you acknowledge that the case was, in fact, not dismissed.

    It was, against the other three defendants. The injunction clearly had no other purpose than to make it look like the DoJ was enforcing the VRA.

    I will correct myself on the injunction, which evidently bans Shabazz from Philadelphia polling places – while in possession of a weapon, which means it doesn’t forbid him from inciting others to “kill summa dey babies”.

  363. avatar
    bob July 10, 2010 at 2:37 pm #

    yguy: I will correct myself on the injunction, which evidently bans Shabazz from Philadelphia polling places – while in possession of a weapon, which means it doesn’t forbid him from inciting others to “kill summa dey babies”.

    So we’re in agreement that the DoJ did not, in fact, dismiss this case. Good.

    But I have no idea who said “kill summa dey babies” or how that relates to any VRA violations.

  364. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett July 10, 2010 at 2:40 pm #

    ellid: Richard Mellon Scaife doesn’t debunk conspiracies, He creates them. He’s a revolting excuse for humanity who happens to be filthy rich thanks to his descent from two of Pittsburgh’s richest families. His newspaper is a joke, his Arkansas Project was a smear factory, and he himself is a typical right-wing hypocrite who went through an extremely ugly divorce. No one should take him, or any of his right-wing fronts, seriously.

    I do believe he’s one of the major bankrollers behind Davy Horowitz’s media machine, too.

  365. avatar
    SluggoJD July 10, 2010 at 3:30 pm #

    yguy: Sluggo

    LOL, I make one post about you, and you come unglued?

    As for your “arguments,” they have all been debunked numerous times by folks here. But that doesn’t matter to you…you just want to spread those fake fires.

    I guess we should come up with a new term – Fantasy Arsonist. Or how about Delusional Arsonist.

  366. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 3:44 pm #

    SluggoJD:
    LOL, I make one post about you, and you come unglued?As for your “arguments,” they have all been debunked numerous times by folks here.But that doesn’t matter to you…you just want to spread those fake fires.I guess we should come up with a new term – Fantasy Arsonist.Or how about Delusional Arsonist.

    Fire Island. Burn Notice. Vanity of the Bonfires.

  367. avatar
    yguy July 10, 2010 at 3:54 pm #

    bob:
    So we’re in agreement that the DoJ did not, in fact, dismiss this case.

    No, we are not, because they dismissed the case against the other 3 defendants.

    But I have no idea who said “kill summa dey babies”

    Those are the words of Minister King Samir Shabazz, the thug who was “punished” with that meaningless injunction.

  368. avatar
    yguy July 10, 2010 at 3:56 pm #

    SluggoJD:
    LOL, I make one post about you, and you come unglued?

    No, I just pointed out that you lied about me, and why you did so.

  369. avatar
    SluggoJD July 10, 2010 at 4:00 pm #

    yguy:
    No, I just pointed out that you lied about me, and why you did so.

    Ok ok, you’re not a cylon. I’m sorry.

  370. avatar
    bob July 10, 2010 at 4:11 pm #

    yguy: No, we are not, because they dismissed the case against the other 3 defendants.

    The case wasn’t dismissed. (Some defendants were dismissed from the case.) The DoJ sought — and obtained — an injunction. Is it so hard for you to be accurate?

    yguy: Those are the words of Minister King Samir Shabazz, the thug who was “punished” with that meaningless injunction.

    If the injunction was so meaningless, why did the Bush DoJ initiate this case?

    And Shabazz statement has to do with VRA violations….how?

    And Shabazz speaks in eubonics? But you’re not racist. Nooooooooo, sir.

  371. avatar
    Rickey July 10, 2010 at 4:24 pm #

    yguy:
    It was, against the other three defendants. The injunction clearly had no other purpose than to make it look like the DoJ was enforcing the VRA.

    Typical yguy twisting of the facts. The charges against the other three defendants were dropped because of insufficient evidence. In particular, there is no evidence that the New Black Panther Party for Self-Defense had condoned Shabazz’s actions.

    I will correct myself on the injunction, which evidently bans Shabazz from Philadelphia polling places – while in possession of a weapon

    The full text of the injunction can be found here:

    http://www.slideshare.net/LegalDocs/findlaw-voting-rights-new-black-panther-party-figure-shabazzs-weapons-order

    As the plain wording of the injunction makes clear, the purpose of it is to prevent Shabazz from engaging in similar acts in the future.

    The Federal Judge who issued the injunction, J. Stewart Dalzell, was appointed by President George H.W. Bush. He would not have signed it if he had not agreed that it is an appropriate resolution to the matter.

  372. avatar
    sfjeff July 10, 2010 at 4:32 pm #

    Face it folks, its just Yguy. You know the one who claimed that Obama is a repeated liar, and cited as examples some errors in his books, and of course which Yguy made errors in his own statements. Yguy can’t tell the difference between a lie and an error in anyone he opposes, and his own errors are never lies.

    He compares Rev Wright to Hitler- which is pretty the most desperate tactic anyone can take. He clearly opposes any ‘liberal’ thought- which of course explains his rabid opposition to Obama.

    He repeatedly claims this nit or that nit about the birth certificate or the DOH but will not admit that no matter proof is provided, he will never accept President Obama as legitimate- he considers him a protege of Hitler, and a liberal/commie/marxist dedicated to the destruction of the United States that Yguy imagines exists or existed.

    Its just a waste of time

  373. avatar
    Rickey July 10, 2010 at 4:40 pm #

    sfjeff Face it folks, its just Yguy. You know the one who claimed that Obama is a repeated liar, and cited as examples some errors in his books, and of course which Yguy made errors in his own statements. Yguy can’t tell the difference between a lie and an error in anyone he opposes, and his own errors are never lies.
    He compares Rev Wright to Hitler- which is pretty the most desperate tactic anyone can take.

    He also claimed that John Kerry is a worse traitor than Benedict Arnold, and he made the entirely false claim that Arnold lived out the rest of his life in remorse.

  374. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 10, 2010 at 5:10 pm #

    sfjeff: Face it folks, its just Yguy. You know the one who claimed that Obama is a repeated liar, and cited as examples some errors in his books, and of course which Yguy made errors in his own statements. Yguy can’t tell the difference between a lie and an error in anyone he opposes, and his own errors are never lies.
    He compares Rev Wright to Hitler- which is pretty the most desperate tactic anyone can take. He clearly opposes any liberal’ thought- which of course explains his rabid opposition to Obama.
    He repeatedly claims this nit or that nit about the birth certificate or the DOH but will not admit that no matter proof is provided, he will never accept President Obama as legitimate- he considers him a protege of Hitler,and a liberal/commie/marxist dedicated to the destruction of the United States that Yguy imagines exists or existed.
    Its just a waste of time

    He also said he never read any of Obama’s books and couldn’t point to the specific page the quote was on. He then also tried to say factcheck lies but couldn’t point to anything.

  375. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 5:16 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    He also said he never read any of Obama’s books and couldn’t point to the specific page the quote was on.He then also tried to say factcheck lies but couldn’t point to anything.

    It must have been all of that prescription cough syrup.

  376. avatar
    Black Lion July 10, 2010 at 5:20 pm #

    yguy: No he isn’t. If he were, he’d be directing his anger at white liberals who pretend to love blacks because their victim status translates to political power, and at race hustlers like Jackson, Sharpton and himself who get filthy rich by catering to everything that’s despicable in their followers.I’ll just bet you don’t. And for the most part they’ve been going backwards ever since, thanks to people like you who don’t understand that political rights are worse than useless without the personal freedom born of morality, which is inimical to modern liberalism.For the education you so clearly need in this matter, go to bondinfo.org

    Amazing…yguy is telling people why Blacks in America, who have been subjigated and been second class citizens for most of the time America has been in existence, what the problem is. Liberalism? Really? Because the neocons and the conservatives have been really at the forefront of civil rights. That is why the neo nazis and the white power movements support GOP candidates. Your theory is ridiculous, which is evident in how you disparage Jackson and other leaders.

  377. avatar
    Sef July 10, 2010 at 5:24 pm #

    Majority Will:
    It must have been all of that prescription cough syrup.

    Hack, hack, hack.

  378. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 7:30 pm #

    Sef:
    Hack, hack, hack.

    John Winger: “Oh, it’s not the speed really so much, I just wish I hadn’t drunk all that cough syrup this morning.”

  379. avatar
    Reality Check July 10, 2010 at 9:09 pm #

    There are some interesting exchanges between Inspector Smith and mocurrupt today on Lucas’ Youtube page. http://www.youtube.com/user/InspectorSmith Inspector Smith has been spewing nonstop for several hours.

  380. avatar
    bob July 10, 2010 at 9:18 pm #

    yguy: Is it so necessary for you to strain at gnats?

    Somewhere, an irony meter explodes.

    yguy: fify

    The DoJ testified to Congress it was 60, gnat strainer.

    …and you do know it is pro forma to seek costs, right?

    yguy: He did when he said what I quoted

    Really? Where did he say, “kill summa dey babies”? Specifically “summa” and “dey.”

    yguy: The injunction doesn’t prevent him from saying stuff like that at a polling place – at least not under the reading of 42USC1973i(b) that Holder can be expected to adhere to.

    So it has nothing to do with VRA violations. You just like being a racist.

  381. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 9:30 pm #

    yguy:
    fify

    Do you understand the concept of pathological liar?

    I don’t think that’s possible.

  382. avatar
    Majority Will July 10, 2010 at 10:36 pm #

    And the birther slithers off under a rock.

  383. avatar
    AnotherBird July 11, 2010 at 2:24 am #

    yguy:
    And me as well…but what else can he do?He can’t find fault with what I say, so he has to try to find fault with what I am. To that end, he makes an effigy of me, burns it and declares victory.

    Yguy this is one of your earlier statements ” I don’t know where you get the idea Fukino has any such responsibility. She doesn’t have to say word one about his birthplace, other than under the direction of someone legally empowered to compel such testimony.”

    Which is a gross misrepresentation through the obfuscation of the facts. Dr. Fukino responsibility is to ensure the integrity of all records held in the Department of Health. These records are representations of some fact, such as the place an event has occurred. If needed Dr. Fukino as her capacity of director of health is suppose to check the validity of those records, which is exactly what she did for Barack Obama. This is what she clearly stated in her statement about Obama’s birth.

    Your obfuscation is suggesting that she doesn’t have a say about his birth place. It is the state of Hawai’i, specifically the Department of Health, that has a say in Obama’s birth place at the time of his birth and recording such a fact. As director of the Hawai’i Department of Health Dr. Fukino’s responsibility to state what fact was recorded.

    Everything else is just disinformational noise.

    I hope in the future if need be that the person responsible for your birth records does the same that was done for Obama. However, as Obama birth records were a extraordinary situation, your birth record will be accept as “prima facie.”

  384. avatar
    yguy July 11, 2010 at 11:18 am #

    AnotherBird:
    Yguy this is one of your earlier statements ” I don’t know where you get the idea Fukino has any such responsibility. She doesn’t have to say word one about his birthplace, other than under the direction of someone legally empowered to compel such testimony.”Which is a gross misrepresentation through the obfuscation of the facts. Dr. Fukino responsibility is to ensure the integrity of all records held in the Department of Health. These records are representations of some fact, such as the place an event has occurred. If needed Dr. Fukino as her capacity of director of health is suppose to check the validity of those records, which is exactly what she did for Barack Obama. This is what she clearly stated in her statement about Obama’s birth.

    No, that’s not what she said, and it’s not true. Taking him at his own word, Obama didn’t need those records checked because the DoH had sent him a COLB the previous year. What he DID need, and what the Democrats needed, was for Fukino to issue a statement before the election – preferably within a few days of it – that appeared to support his claim. And THAT is “exactly what she did for Barack Obama”.

    Your obfuscation is suggesting that she doesn’t have a say about his birth place. It is the state of Hawai’i, specifically the Department of Health, that has a say in Obama’s birth place at the time of his birth and recording such a fact.

    Nobody “has a say” in his birthplace. The state and its responsible official(s) are obligated to keep those records. Neither is obligated to make any public statement in support of a candidate’s eligibility.

    As director of the Hawai’i Department of Health Dr. Fukino’s responsibility to state what fact was recorded.

    Show me the law that compelled her to make such statements as she released regarding Obama.

  385. avatar
    Reality Check July 11, 2010 at 12:03 pm #

    yguy: Show me the law that compelled her to make such statements as she released regarding Obama.

    I think that is the wrong question. The question is for you ,yguy, to show me a law that says she was barred from making such a statement by law. The statements made by Dr. Fukino and Gov. Lingle are perfectly understandable considering the badgering by Obama conspiracy nuts (lower case “c”) like WND, the Pest and Efail, The RSOL, Plains Radio, and individuals who to this day are accusing them of lying and participating in a conspiracy without a singe morsel of evidence. Dr. Fukino’s job is to maintain accurate records. I am sure that she is human enough to be bothered by accusations made by a bunch of kooks that she is not doing her job correctly.

  386. avatar
    yguy July 11, 2010 at 12:29 pm #

    Reality Check:
    I think that is the wrong question.

    Will wonders never cease?

    The question is for you ,yguy, to show me a law that says she was barred from making such a statement by law.

    And I should do that because…?

    Dr. Fukino’s job is to maintain accurate records.

    And how exactly was the statement she released a few days before the election necessary to that end?

    I am sure that she is human enough to be bothered by accusations made by a bunch of kooks that she is not doing her job correctly.

    Why would any of that impel her to release that statement four days before the election rather than a day after it?

  387. avatar
    Bovril July 11, 2010 at 12:48 pm #

    Come on Yguy, still waiting for any answer, or is it simply you have NO answer or ability to own up to your inherent lacks….?

    So, Yguy, do tell.

    You want, nay demand to see the mystical long form as you have “issues” with the short one.

    What precisely IS it you expect to see in said form that differs from the posted COLB.

    Please, enquiring minds need to know, you have never ACTUALLY illuminated our darkness with your wisdom in this area, really, I and others need to know.

    What is your requirement, what is it you need to see and will the “long form” suffice.

    No squirming now, simple request, what is or are the elements that would calm your fevered mind.

  388. avatar
    Majority Will July 11, 2010 at 1:03 pm #

    Bovril: Come on Yguy, still waiting for any answer, or is it simply you have NO answer or ability to own up to your inherent lacks….?So, Yguy, do tell.You want, nay demand to see the mystical long form as you have “issues” with the short one.What precisely IS it you expect to see in said form that differs from the posted COLB.Please, enquiring minds need to know, you have never ACTUALLY illuminated our darkness with your wisdom in this area, really, I and others need to know.
    What is your requirement, what is it you need to see and will the “long form” suffice.No squirming now, simple request, what is or are the elements that would calm your fevered mind.

    More proof that birthers are lying, delusional cowards.

  389. avatar
    AnotherBird July 11, 2010 at 1:05 pm #

    yguy:
    No, that’s not what she said, and it’s not true. Taking him at his own word, Obama didn’t need those records checked because the DoH had sent him a COLB the previous year.

    That is the point that your entire argument falls apart. If you don’t understand what a birth certificate is then just say so, but your continual obfuscation of the facts doesn’t help in anyway.

    Any birth record that is released is based on the document or documents held by the department responsible for maintaining those records.

    Everything after your comment is just more misinformation and word play. Come on you guys have over 2 years to disprove the validity of a certificated birth record, but nothing has been produced.

    As stated before the fact of Obama’s birth has been confirmed by the government agency who maintains the records pertaining to those facts.

    The statement made by the government of Hawaii had absolutely no effect on the election, for it did change peoples minds birthers wouldn’t exist today.

  390. avatar
    Majority Will July 11, 2010 at 1:12 pm #

    Birthers are truly a desperate and sad bunch grasping at non-existent straws.

  391. avatar
    yguy July 11, 2010 at 2:14 pm #

    AnotherBird:
    Any birth record that is released is [putatively] based on the document or documents held by the department responsible for maintaining those records.

    Obviously. What I’m missing is what the hell it has to do with anything I said.

    Everything after your comment is just more misinformation and word play.

    As nebulous and patently unfounded as this accusation is, I think it can be fairly said that the obfuscation and misinformation is all yours.

    Come on you guys have over 2 years to disprove the validity of a certificated birth record, but nothing has been produced.

    I have no intention of disproving its validity. I merely note that said validity is, by any reasonable standard, an open question.

    The statement made by the government of Hawaii had absolutely no effect on the election,

    Even forgetting that you couldn’t substantiate this claim to save your life, if it’s true, why could she not have waited until afterwards to release it?

    for it did change peoples minds birthers wouldn’t exist today.

    It would not have changed the minds of reasonable skeptics like myself, since it did not confirm his birth in HI.

  392. avatar
    Sef July 11, 2010 at 2:28 pm #

    yguy: I merely note that said validity is, by any reasonable standard, an open question.

    If you have never been to Antarctica do you believe it exists? If you were not in Hiroshima on Aug 6, 1945 do you believe that a bomb went off there? What, exactly, do you believe?

  393. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 11, 2010 at 2:35 pm #

    yguy: She doesn’t have to say word one about his birthplace, other than under the direction of someone legally empowered to compel such testimony.”

    yguy, under birther standards, I guess that would make you a liar. Under my standards, I would just call it negligent ignorance.

    §338-18 Disclosure of records.
    …(d) Index data consisting of name and sex of the registrant, type of vital event, and such other data as the director may authorize shall be made available to the public.

    A fair number of the members of the public requested this information and she made it available as required by the statute.

  394. avatar
    Majority Will July 11, 2010 at 2:39 pm #

    “reasonable skeptics like myself”

    Not by any actual definition in the real world. Birther blather.

  395. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 11, 2010 at 2:46 pm #

    yguy: I have no intention of disproving its validity. I merely note that said validity is, by any reasonable standard, an open question.

    A flat earther would say that about whether the earth is round or flat. It seems to me that your use of the word “reasonable standard” means nothing more than “whatever it takes to smear Barack Obama.” I reject that standard and I reject any assertion that Barack Obama’s birthplace is an open question; it is not.

  396. avatar
    yguy July 11, 2010 at 3:32 pm #

    Sef:
    If you have never been to Antarctica do you believe it exists?If you were not in Hiroshima on Aug 6, 1945 do you believe that a bomb went off there?What, exactly, do you believe?

    That no evidence is generally known to exist which could possibly, if divulged, refute either claim.

    hth

  397. avatar
    yguy July 11, 2010 at 3:38 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    yguy, under birther standards, I guess that would make you a liar. Under my standards, I would just call it negligent ignorance.
    A fair number of the members of the public requested this information

    That may well be, but according to Fukino it was those asking for his BC that prompted the press release.

    and she made it available as required by the statute.

    So had she failed to issue that statement, she and/or HI would have been in legal jeopardy.

    Have I got that about right?

  398. avatar
    yguy July 11, 2010 at 3:51 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    It seems to me that your use of the word “reasonable standard” means nothing more than “whatever it takes to smear Barack Obama.”

    Were that the case, I would not hesitate to post shameless lies, as so many of my adversaries do.

    I reject that standard

    Swell, just don’t call it mine without backing it up.

    and I reject any assertion that Barack Obama’s birthplace is an open question;

    You have every right to do that, but you can’t do it without assuming a fact which is not in evidence, as I’ve noted here so many times.

  399. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 11, 2010 at 4:22 pm #

    yguy:
    Were that the case, I would not hesitate to post shameless lies, as so many of my adversaries do.
    Swell, just don’t call it mine without backing it up.
    You have every right to do that, but you can’t do it without assuming a fact which is not in evidence, as I’ve noted here so many times.

    You already do post shameless lies yguy and no one stopped you from doing so before? See that’s the problem with extremists such as you. Everyone who disagrees with you is considered an enemy or adversary instead of just being someone who disagrees with you.

    The fact is there it has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that Obama was born in Hawaii you have proven nothing on your side.

  400. avatar
    Sef July 11, 2010 at 4:37 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    You already do post shameless lies yguy and no one stopped you from doing so before?See that’s the problem with extremists such as you.Everyone who disagrees with you is considered an enemy or adversary instead of just being someone who disagrees with you.The fact is there it has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that Obama was born in Hawaii you have proven nothing on your side.

    And he & the other birthers (or sock puppets) continue to think they can change the subject to Obama having to prove his nativity, rather than the burden of proof being on them to prove otherwise. Until they come up with some actual proof that will stand up in a real court of law we should just ignore them.

  401. avatar
    Ellid July 11, 2010 at 4:59 pm #

    yguy:
    Obviously. What I’m missing is what the hell it has to do with anything I said.
    As nebulous and patently unfounded as this accusation is, I think it can be fairly said that the obfuscation and misinformation is all yours.
    I have no intention of disproving its validity. I merely note that said validity is, by any reasonable standard, an open question.
    Even forgetting that you couldn’t substantiate this claim to save your life, if it’s true, why could she not have waited until afterwards to release it?
    It would not have changed the minds of reasonable skeptics like myself, since it did not confirm his birth in HI.

    You are not reasonable. You are not a skeptic. Your mind is made up, and so you ignore evidence, reason, and facts in favor of conspiracies and nonsense.

    If you were not such a belligerent, nasty troll, I would pity you.

  402. avatar
    Majority Will July 11, 2010 at 5:36 pm #

    Ellid:
    You are not reasonable.You are not a skeptic.Your mind is made up, and so you ignore evidence, reason, and facts in favor of conspiracies and nonsense.If you were not such a belligerent, nasty troll, I would pity you.

    Well said.

  403. avatar
    AnotherBird July 11, 2010 at 5:50 pm #

    yguy:
    Obviously. What I’m missing is what the hell it has to do with anything I said.
    As nebulous and patently unfounded as this accusation is, I think it can be fairly said that the obfuscation and misinformation is all yours.
    I have no intention of disproving its validity. I merely note that said validity is, by any reasonable standard, an open question.
    Even forgetting that you couldn’t substantiate this claim to save your life, if it’s true, why could she not have waited until afterwards to release it?
    It would not have changed the minds of reasonable skeptics like myself, since it did not confirm his birth in HI.

    Why bother add words that are were neither included or need to my original comment?

    So can we question the “validity” of you being a human?

    Everything comes down to two facts where or not Dr. Fukino in her capacity can confirm the validity of a birth in Hawaii. — This has done as it is in her capacity.

    The second fact is where or not Obama posted a copy of birth certificate, specifically the COLB. — This is valid as confirmed, as his birth 48 years.

    Let try and determine your logic. You think that “validity is an open question.” Keep tilling … if is funny watching your continue to muddy the facts.

    Your not a skeptic, not even close.

  404. avatar
    Bovril July 11, 2010 at 5:58 pm #

    Come on Ygut

    Still waiting you cowardly sack of poo

    So, Yguy, do tell.

    You want, nay demand to see the mystical long form as you have “issues” with the short one.

    What precisely IS it you expect to see in said form that differs from the posted COLB.

    Please, enquiring minds need to know, you have never ACTUALLY illuminated our darkness with your wisdom in this area, really, I and others need to know.

    What is your requirement, what is it you need to see and will the “long form” suffice.

    No squirming now, simple request, what is or are the elements that would calm your fevered mind.

  405. avatar
    Jay July 11, 2010 at 7:38 pm #

    yguy: Were that the case, I would not hesitate to post shameless lies, as so many of my adversaries do.Swell, just don’t call it mine without backing it up.You have every right to do that, but you can’t do it without assuming a fact which is not in evidence, as I’ve noted here so many times.

    you are beyond all hope. enough said.

  406. avatar
    Majority Will July 11, 2010 at 8:00 pm #

    “so many of my adversaries”

    Pathetic narcissistic victim complex. It must suck to be a birther filled with pointless rage and paranoid delusions.

  407. avatar
    Rickey July 11, 2010 at 8:47 pm #

    yguy: That no evidence is generally known to exist which could possibly, if divulged, refute either claim.

    Just as there is no evidence generally known to exist which could possibly refute the claim that Obama was born in Honolulu on August 4, 1961.

    If someone has such evidence, bring it on. If the Hawaii DOH has such evidence, there is no reason why its Republican governor and Republican-appointed Director of DOH would want to keep it under wraps.

  408. avatar
    yguy July 11, 2010 at 10:29 pm #

    Rickey:
    Just as there is no evidence generally known to exist which could possibly refute the claim that Obama was born in Honolulu on August 4, 1961.
    If someone has such evidence, bring it on.

    The only person who can do it without a court order is Obama.

    If the Hawaii DOH has such evidence, there is no reason why its Republican governor and Republican-appointed Director of DOH would want to keep it under wraps.

    What they want has nothing to do with it, since the law says they can’t do otherwise except for a party with “direct and tangible interest”.

  409. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 11, 2010 at 10:36 pm #

    yguy:
    The only person who can do it without a court order is Obama.
    What they want has nothing to do with it, since the law says they can’t do otherwise except for a party with “direct and tangible interest”.

    Courts won’t allow you discovery based on an assumption and absolutely no evidence.

  410. avatar
    misha July 11, 2010 at 10:47 pm #

    Rickey: If someone has such evidence, bring it on. If the Hawaii DOH has such evidence, there is no reason why its Republican governor and Republican-appointed Director of DOH would want to keep it under wraps.

    Rickey: I have written this several times before: Linda Lingle is Jewish, and was an ardent McCain supporter. She felt McCain/Palin were better for Israel. If she could have found any dirt, it would be broadcast to the world.

    To accuse her of being part of a conspiracy, is beyond absurd.

  411. avatar
    Majority Will July 11, 2010 at 11:21 pm #

    misha:
    Rickey: I have written this several times before: Linda Lingle is Jewish, and was an ardent McCain supporter. She felt McCain/Palin were better for Israel. If she could have found any dirt, it would be broadcast to the world.To accuse her of being part of a conspiracy, is beyond absurd.

    Baseless accusations without a shred of credible evidence is cowardly and despicable.

  412. avatar
    sfjeff July 11, 2010 at 11:57 pm #

    Yguy- once again arguing about the nits, and ignoring the facts.

    The facts:

    Dr. Fukino has declared in her official capacity that President Obama was born in Hawaii
    We have seen a copy of the official certified birth certificate
    We have seen copies of the birth announcements

    Yguys counter? Why did Dr. Fukino announce anything? Why won’t the DOH say this or say that in exactly the way Yguy wants?

    Notice that none of Yguy’s objections actually have any substance regarding eligibility.

  413. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 12, 2010 at 12:20 am #

    sfjeff: Yguy- once again arguing about the nits, and ignoring the facts.
    The facts:Dr. Fukino has declared in her official capacity that President Obama was born in Hawaii
    We have seen a copy of the official certified birth certificate
    We have seen copies of the birth announcementsYguys counter? Why did Dr. Fukino announce anything? Why won’t the DOH say this or say that in exactly the way Yguy wants?
    Notice that none of Yguy’s objections actually have any substance regarding eligibility.

    Jeff we both know that if Dr Fukino never said anything Yguy would then be saying why didn’t DOH say anything? Why didn’t they confirm it? Why didn’t they say this or that.

  414. avatar
    misha July 12, 2010 at 12:25 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Jeff we both know that if Dr Fukino never said anything Yguy would then be saying why didn’t DOH say anything? Why didn’t they confirm it? Why didn’t they say this or that.

    It’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

  415. avatar
    Bovril July 12, 2010 at 10:44 am #

    sfjeff: Yguys counter? Why did Dr. Fukino announce anything? Why won’t the DOH say this or say that in exactly the way Yguy wants?

    Yguy persistently refuses to deign to inform anyone here precisely what it is, the parameters of his concern on ANY of his “problems”.

    The routine is basically

    “They are ALL BAAAAAD”
    “Err, why are they all bad”
    “They just are”
    “Yes I hear what you are saying, but what makes them bad”
    “It’s obvious and if you don’t get it I won’t bother to argue with you”

    Etc etc ad-infinitum

    This, to me denotes an individual who is at best an intellectual coward.

    I might add that this modus operandi of Yguys is consistent on other sites he posts on and is equally detested.

    Par example an entire 12 page, 293 comment thread devoted to him and his buddy Jerome Da Gnome

    http://www.talkrational.org/showthread.php?t=26091

  416. avatar
    Keith July 13, 2010 at 1:19 am #

    Bovril:… This, to me denotes an individual who is at best an intellectual coward….

    You gotta realize that yguy claims to be 13 years old.

    I tried to explain to him that we were assuming he was an adult and that is why we weren’t cutting him any slack for his 3yo behavior. But he rejected that chastisement on the grounds that he wasn’t an adult. And I doubt his ‘sock-friends’ are either.

    There is not a lot of point in trying to hold a 13yo to adult conversational expectations. It isn’t their goal to be ‘reasonable’; it is their goal to be ‘confrontational’ – to stick it to the man.

    Assuming that yguy is being truthful about his/her age, he/she is quite likely not a birther in fact; most likely he/she is just trying to be maximally facetious.

    I’m trying to ignore him/her from now on, but I expect only spotty success.

  417. avatar
    misha July 13, 2010 at 1:28 am #

    Keith: You gotta realize that yguy claims to be 13 years old.

    That goes along with the rest of the BS he posts.

  418. avatar
    Bovril July 13, 2010 at 5:02 am #

    My personal belief is the only reason that Yguy would purport himself to be 13 years of age would be for reasons nefarious and unpleasant…

    Maybe that’s a calumney on my part and he is in reality merely a socially inadequate, compulsively masturbating, acne ridden juvenile with at best a passing acquaintance with personal hygiene.

  419. avatar
    Lupin July 13, 2010 at 6:19 am #

    Keith: You gotta realize that yguy claims to be 13 years old.

    Physically or mentally?

  420. avatar
    PetJake July 13, 2010 at 9:33 am #

    Hawaii never sent any birth certificate to Obama and Fukino never said she saw Obama’s original birth certificate in October 2008.

    Never said it.

    I mean, how stupid an illiterate can you be?

    The only thing she said sge saw was a computer record. A computer record, not a paper birth certificate. She saw an index record. Not a birth certificate.

    She said that “Hawaii has his original birth certificate “on record.”

    If she actually saw Obama’s birth certificate, then she would have said,

    “I SAW OBAMA’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE.”

    Did she say, “I HAVE SEEN OBAMA’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE?”

    Did she say, “WE HAVE SEEN OBAMA’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE?”

    NO.

    If McCain, Bush, or Palin did what Obama did, you guys would not only be birthers, but stupid, illiterate birthers as well.

  421. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 13, 2010 at 9:37 am #

    PetJake: Hawaii never sent any birth certificate to Obama and Fukino never said she saw Obama’s original birth certificate in October 2008.Never said it.I mean, how stupid an illiterate can you be?The only thing she said sge saw was a computer record. A computer record, not a paper birth certificate. She saw an index record. Not a birth certificate.She said that “Hawaii has his original birth certificate “on record.”If she actually saw Obama’s birth certificate, then she would have said, “I SAW OBAMA’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE.”Did she say, “I HAVE SEEN OBAMA’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE?” Did she say, “WE HAVE SEEN OBAMA’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE?” NO.If McCain, Bush, or Palin did what Obama did, you guys would not only be birthers, but stupid, illiterate birthers as well.

    *yawn* She said she saw the birth certificate. The english language shouldn’t be difficult for you. McCain hasn’t even released his birth certificate if you birthers had integrity you’d be calling for the release of his

  422. avatar
    Majority Will July 13, 2010 at 9:40 am #

    “I mean, how stupid an illiterate can you be?”

    The irony never ends.

    “I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawai’i State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen.”

  423. avatar
    misha July 13, 2010 at 9:43 am #

    PetJake: The only thing she said sge saw was a computer record. A computer record, not a paper birth certificate. She saw an index record. Not a birth certificate.

    PetJake: Thank you for having the courage to point out the flaws in Fukino’s statements. I found a Kenya birth certificate (Obama’s?) that’s right here!

    Thanks for taking the time to visit here.

  424. avatar
    PetJake July 13, 2010 at 9:48 am #

    And she never said he was born in Hawaii in her 2008 statement. If you find the word, “born,” and the phrase “in Hawaii,” let me know.

    Otherwise, stop telling lies.

  425. avatar
    PetJake July 13, 2010 at 9:49 am #

    Meow, Misha

  426. avatar
    PetJake July 13, 2010 at 9:51 am #

    “*yawn* She said she saw the birth certificate. The english language shouldn’t be difficult for you.”

    Apparently, literacy IS difficult for you.

    She never said she saw a birth certificate on Oct 31, ’08

  427. avatar
    PetJake July 13, 2010 at 9:53 am #

    That’s what Fukino said on JULY 27, 2009, Majority Will, NOT on 10/31/2008.

  428. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 13, 2010 at 9:56 am #

    PetJake: And she never said he was born in Hawaii in her 2008 statement. If you find the word, “born,” and the phrase “in Hawaii,” let me know.Otherwise, stop telling lies.

    What part of “I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawai’i State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen” do you not understand?

  429. avatar
    PetJake July 13, 2010 at 9:58 am #

    Maybe YOU need to go back to the TOP of the post and read what this again:

    “Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawaii, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

    HAWAII HAS ON RECORD.

    NOT, “HAS SEEN”

    NOT, “HAS READ”

    NOT NOTHING.

  430. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 13, 2010 at 9:58 am #

    PetJake: “*yawn* She said she saw the birth certificate. The english language shouldn’t be difficult for you.”Apparently, literacy IS difficult for you.She never said she saw a birth certificate on Oct 31, ’08

    Yeah she did. Even so she has said it since. Why do you assume it was a computer record? It could have been a paper record. Not all “records” have to be digital.

  431. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 13, 2010 at 9:59 am #

    PetJake: Maybe YOU need to go back to the TOP of the post and read what this again:“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawaii, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.HAWAII HAS ON RECORD.NOT, “HAS SEEN”NOT, “HAS READ”NOT NOTHING.

    Verification requires seeing that a record exists. You’re making an assumption this was a computer record and not a paper record

  432. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 13, 2010 at 10:00 am #

    PetJake: “*yawn* She said she saw the birth certificate. The english language shouldn’t be difficult for you.”Apparently, literacy IS difficult for you.She never said she saw a birth certificate on Oct 31, ’08

    I majored in english you apparently don’t understand how one verifies something without seeing it.

  433. avatar
    PetJake July 13, 2010 at 10:03 am #

    BOB ROSS

    “Yeah she did”

    NO SHE DID NOT. Hawaii specifically and conspicuously uses the phrase, “on record,” to refer to an index record.

    If people would actually do a little research instead of blindly swallowing whatever they are fed, they just might realize it, too.

    There is absolutely nothing in her statement that has anything to do with seeing a physical birth certificate. There is absolutely nothing in her statement that has anything to do with seeing a facsimile of his birth certificate.

    It went something like this.

    “Hey, Al. Ya got an index record for Obama’s birth certificate?

    “Yeah, Chi, we do, Go make the announcement.”

  434. avatar
    PetJake July 13, 2010 at 10:08 am #

    “Verification requires seeing that a record exists. You’re making an assumption this was a computer record and not a paper record”

    “Verification requires seeing that a record exists” but it is not the same thing as examining the record.

    You have check #2300 recorded in your ledger. I have not actually seen the check. I have no idea that the check actually exists.

    ALL I did was to VERIFY that you have a record of it.

  435. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 13, 2010 at 10:08 am #

    PetJake: BOB ROSS“Yeah she did”NO SHE DID NOT. Hawaii specifically and conspicuously uses the phrase, “on record,” to refer to an index record.If people would actually do a little research instead of blindly swallowing whatever they are fed, they just might realize it, too.There is absolutely nothing in her statement that has anything to do with seeing a physical birth certificate. There is absolutely nothing in her statement that has anything to do with seeing a facsimile of his birth certificate.It went something like this.“Hey, Al. Ya got an index record for Obama’s birth certificate?“Yeah, Chi, we do, Go make the announcement.”

    Do you think typing in caps makes your point clearer or less? Yes she did. How exactly do you know what it meant you think record means the computer records. People have done research its you who has failed to do any. She has clarified her statement multiple times for people like you. You obviously have no idea how vital records work

  436. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 13, 2010 at 10:10 am #

    PetJake: “Verification requires seeing that a record exists. You’re making an assumption this was a computer record and not a paper record”“Verification requires seeing that a record exists” but it is not the same thing as examining the record.You have check #2300 recorded in your ledger. I have not actually seen the check. I have no idea that the check actually exists.ALL I did was to VERIFY that you have a record of it.

    You open the file you look at the record, you verify it exists. I have a check in my ledger I then verify that the record matches the check. Again you’re trying to play semantics but then want to weasle around when they’re played on you.

  437. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 13, 2010 at 10:12 am #

    Jake do you have an actual point? Dr Fukino has since clarified the original point that she has seen the original document verifying Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural born citizen.

  438. avatar
    Bovril July 13, 2010 at 11:32 am #

    So PetJake

    Just to clarify, please, what precisely is it that concerns you?

    Really, we all would like to know.

    On seperate occassions, the custodian of the records of the births of Hawai’i has stated that a specific individuals records….the word is RECORDS (multiple) exist, have been and that they demonstrate the birth of said individual in Hawai’i.

    Said birth, by the laws and Constitution of the USA are sufficient to “quailfy” said individual to run (and in this case win) the Presidency of the USA.

    Said determination is, also as per the laws and Constiution of the USA sufficient and whole and legal and recognizable in all the individual states in the USA (That’s the Full Faith and Credit bit in case you forgot)

    Said records are sufficient and appropriate to issue a signed and sealed, legally self authenticating birth certificate or COLB sufficient to demonstarte the birth of an individual for all purposes of said BC/COLB.

    So, what is your specific and not specious problem?

  439. avatar
    Sef July 13, 2010 at 11:40 am #

    Bovril: So PetJakeJust to clarify, please, what precisely is it that concerns you?Really, we all would like to know.On seperate occassions, the custodian of the records of the births of Hawai’i has stated that a specific individuals records….the word is RECORDS (multiple) exist, have beenand that they demonstrate the birth of said individual in Hawai’i.Said birth, by the laws and Constitution of the USA are sufficient to “quailfy” said individual to run (and in this case win) the Presidency of the USA.Said determination is, also as per the laws and Constiution of the USA sufficient and whole and legal and recognizable in all the individual states in the USA (That’s the Full Faith and Credit bit in case you forgot)Said records are sufficient and appropriate to issue a signed and sealed, legally self authenticating birth certificate or COLB sufficient to demonstarte the birth of an individual for all purposes of said BC/COLB.So, what is your specific and not specious problem?

    It is interesting to contemplate what might happen when Obama runs for re-election. Even if there are states which have enhanced eligibility requirements the full faith & credit clause applies. Even if someone has standing the burden of proof requirement still exists. So, unless ironclad, multiply supported evidence of birth outside the U.S is brought forward the potential suits in 2012 will have a similar outcome as all the others.

  440. avatar
    Majority Will July 13, 2010 at 11:42 am #

    PetJake: “Verification requires seeing that a record exists. You’re making an assumption this was a computer record and not a paper record”“Verification requires seeing that a record exists” but it is not the same thing as examining the record.You have check #2300 recorded in your ledger. I have not actually seen the check. I have no idea that the check actually exists.ALL I did was to VERIFY that you have a record of it.

    You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about but it is amusing.

  441. avatar
    Gorefan July 13, 2010 at 12:06 pm #

    PetJake: It went something like this.
    “Hey, Al. Ya got an index record for Obama’s birth certificate?
    “Yeah, Chi, we do, Go make the announcement.”

    Actually, it probably went more like this:

    October, 2008:
    Fukino: Ok, I’m going to make a statement and end this this birther nonsense once and for all.

    July, 2009:
    Fukino: Holy sh*t, how stupid can these morons get. I tell them I’ve seen the birth certificate, and they twist my words until even I don’t recognize them. Well, this statement should show those idiots.

    Feburary, 2010:
    What the f*ck do I have to do to get it through to these chuckleheads, we have the President’s original BC, he was born in Hawaii and he posted his BC on his website. Man, I wish there was a law.

  442. avatar
    sfjeff July 13, 2010 at 1:07 pm #

    Petjake- lets examine your original statement line by line shall we?

    “Hawaii never sent any birth certificate to Obama”

    And you know this how? Please enlighten us poor deluded folks. Because on the face o it, this appears to be just another Birther talking point- i hesitate to call it a lie but lets call it an ‘untruth’. That can be your opinion but the facts indicate otherwise:
    a) Obama posted a copy online and it was verified in person by Factcheck
    b) Dr. Fukino has verified that Obama was born in the United States- and she has stated that Obama has posted his BC online. Those taken together would lead a reasonable person to understand that yes indeed, Hawaii sent Obama a BC aka COLB.

    ” and Fukino never said she saw Obama’s original birth certificate in October 2008″

    “I as Director of Health for the State of Hawaii, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record ”

    Did you miss the “personally seen” part? For your education I will remove the words that confuse Birthers:

    ” have personally seen that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record ”

    Easier to understand now?
    Never said it.

    “I mean, how stupid an illiterate can you be?”

    Your words not mine. But I thought I would put them in again for amusement.

    “The only thing she said sge saw was a computer record. A computer record, not a paper birth certificate. She saw an index record. Not a birth certificate.”

    Prove that assertion.

    She said that “Hawaii has his original birth certificate “on record.”

    “Did she say, “I HAVE SEEN OBAMA’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE?” ”

    Yes she did- but in words too complicated for you to understand apparently.

    “If McCain, Bush, or Palin did what Obama did, you guys would not only be birthers, but stupid, illiterate birthers as well.”

    This is the most uninformed statement you have made. None of them provided any proof of their birth in the United States- McCain because he couldn’t, Palin and Bush probably because they didn’t feel it was necessary. Obama is the only one who has published a copy of this BC. Obama is the only one who has had a state verify he was born there.

    Personally, I feel that McCain is eligible, but I can’t say thats proven law, but if he hadn’t chosen Palin as his VP candidate i would have seriously considered voting for him. I like McCain. I voted against Bush, but not because he never provided his BC.

    I wonder though- what are Bush and Palin trying to cover up by not releasing their BC’s?

  443. avatar
    Sef July 13, 2010 at 1:12 pm #

    sfjeff: I wonder though- what are Bush and Palin trying to cover up by not releasing their BC’s?

    They’re probably worried that they will use up the country’s black ink supply with all the expurgations necessary.

  444. avatar
    PetJake July 14, 2010 at 9:20 am #

    OK, found my way back here after a detour to the Twitter thing.

    Let’s talk 2nd or 3rd grade, basic English.

    A sentence is comprised of three basic parts: subject, verb, and object.

    I feel safe to say that everyone has got the subject and the verb – actually two verbs – down pat. In fact, to the exclusion of all else.

    It’s that nasty “object” that is causing all the misinterpretation here.

    Take each of the two verbs individually. The subject and first verb is

    “I” + “have seen”

    The subject and second verb is

    “I” + “have verified”

    So far, so good.

    Now, what is the object?

    If you said, “birth certificate,” or “original birth certificate,” or “Obama’s original birth certificate,” you’ll have to stay after class because you got that wrong.

    What we have here (besides a “failure to communicate”) is actually a compound sentence, and that compounds the problem for people who think it is equivalent to Fukino’s very simple statement in July 2009.

    The “object” of Fukino’s 2008 sentence is an “affirmation of possession,” and nothing more.

    Here is her fully lawyered-up, compound sentence.

    “”I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai’i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai’i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record.”

    Stripping her statement down to the bare essentials, without all its lawyerly garbage, we have the following:

    For the first sentence, leave out the “verified” and focus on the “seen.” Use “HDOH” to refer to the Health Department.

    “I…have seen that the HDOH has…Obama’s original birth certificate.”

    OK, replace “seen” with “verified”

    “I…have verified that the HDOH has…Obama’s original birth certificate.”

    What prevented her from saying,

    “I have seen Obama’s original birth certificate and he was born in Hawaii”

    which she did say SIX months after Obama was already in office (I use CAPS for emphasis in place of bold – so, deal with it)

    Why not say “I have seen Obama’s original birth certificate and he was born in Hawaii?”

    In fact, what was the purpose of waiting until the Friday afternoon before Election Tuesday to issue a statement – if not to stymie any possible discussion after the fact?

    To put it in the parlance of which some of you are most accustomed to hearing:

    “Are you f**king kidding me? Less than two f***king work days before voting for President? How f***king con-VEN-ient!”

    But, since you made up in your minds that Fukino’s statement did nothing more than echo what you had already decided long before Election Day, you did not bother to really listen to it.

    Just as you did not bother to listen to all of the media talking about John McCain’s Panama problem.

    How is it that nobody heard about McCain’s problem when it was all over the news for seven months – after it had been already brought up in 2000 and in 1998?

    Probably because you screened out anything having to do with just McCain.

    And, I’m sure that Fukino telling us eight months after the Presidential election that Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born citizen – except for the fact that Obama is not a natural-born citizen, never was a natural-born citizen, and never will be a natural-born citizen.

    McCain is also not a natural-born citizen, but he has a better argument than Obama who has, at most, one qualifying US citizen parent.

    Obama may be a citizen, but definitely not a natural-born one.

    Obama’s own Campaign website still calls him a “native-born” citizen after more than two years.

    If Obama was a “natural-born citizen” then his Campaign would have said so – especially since Fukino did, and we all know that her word is as valid as the Constitution, Congress, and the Suypreme Court combined.

    Right?

    Forget about Tribe.

    Forget about Olson.

    Forget about Dowdy.

    Make way for Dr. Chiyome Le’ilaana Fukino, the Official United States Constitutional Authority.

    “Native-born” is not interchangeable with “natural-born” citizen. If you had interpreted Wong Kim correctly, then you would have realized that Kim’s parents were not US citizens, but were non-US permanent residents and that this was about 14th Amendment citizenship that originally applied to slaves in other states, and was never intended to grant automatic citizenship to babies dropped by pregnant teens from South of the Border going North of the Border.

    “Native-born” citizen is a third class of citizenship established by the 14th Amendment, and there is movement to stop granting automatic citizenship to “anchor babies.”

  445. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 14, 2010 at 9:56 am #

    PetJake: Native-born” is not interchangeable with “natural-born” citizen. If you had interpreted Wong Kim correctly, then you would have realized that Kim’s parents were not US citizens, but were non-US permanent residents and that this was about 14th Amendment citizenship that originally applied to slaves in other states, and was never intended to grant automatic citizenship to babies dropped by pregnant teens from South of the Border going North of the Border.“Native-born” citizen is a third class of citizenship established by the 14th Amendment, and there is movement to stop granting automatic citizenship to “anchor babies.”

    You haven’t really been paying attention now have you? If you bothered reading through this site you will see multiple court cases where Native Born and Natural born were used interchangeably. There is no third class of citizenship that is contrary to Minor V Happersett which states there are only two types of citizens Native Born and Naturalized. The 14th Amendment only extended the rights that were not given through flaws of the constitution. Yet time and again it was been upheld that those born on US Soil are natural born citizens. Multiple federal cases have determined this and were never appealed further. You’re wrong as usual.

  446. avatar
    Bovril July 14, 2010 at 10:42 am #

    Jake dear boy,

    Having parsed your rather asinine adventure in grammar it is plain you fail at the first flush.

    There is a damn good LEGAL reason as well as grammatically correct reason why Fukino didn’t say “I have seen Obama’s original birth certificate and he was born in Hawaii?”

    Guess what, SEEING does not VERIFY you muppet.

    Seeing means I perceived a thing or an image it does not prove the existence or in this case the legality of it…Witness the mad Birfers and the perpetual whine of “The BC’s a fake ’cause I haven’t seen and felt it, its a fake photoshop” etc etc etc.

    So, when Fukino states she has VERIFIED it means SEEN and CHECKED and that it passes all the necessary legal needs to be accepted as a legally valid and binding document.

    Do try and keep up or don’t play with the adults, there’s a good chap.

  447. avatar
    Bovril July 14, 2010 at 10:46 am #

    Oh and Jakey,

    The phrase you so relish, “anchor baby”….?

    The legal term is “US Citizen” and denotes an NBC who can run for Prez.

    Don’t like it, feel free to petion your political reps to try and get a Constitutional Amendment passed.

  448. avatar
    yguy July 14, 2010 at 10:48 am #

    Keith:
    You gotta realize that yguy claims to be 13 years old.

    Do you have me confused with someone else, or are you just lying?

    I tried to explain to him that we were assuming he was an adult and that is why we weren’t cutting him any slack for his 3yo behavior.

    Did you indeed? That’s funny, seeing I don’t remember ever conversing online with anyone named “Keith”.

  449. avatar
    Majority Will July 14, 2010 at 11:00 am #

    “Keith:
    You gotta realize that yguy claims to be 13 years old.”

    Based on the puerile and obstinate posts, that’s a decade more than I would have guessed.

    Then again, I haven’t met many three year olds that were that delusional.

  450. avatar
    sfjeff July 14, 2010 at 12:42 pm #

    “Do you have me confused with someone else, or are you just lying?”

    Well, Yguy, I have repeatedly asked whether you understand the difference between a mistake and a lie but you never respond.

    Wasn’t it you who claimed that Obama was a habitual liar and then when pressed for examples cited statements he made in his book- but the statements were not in his book, and the statements were clearly mistakes not lies. So was your statement a mistake or a lie?

  451. avatar
    yguy July 14, 2010 at 1:23 pm #

    sfjeff: “Do you have me confused with someone else, or are you just lying?”Well, Yguy, I have repeatedly asked whether you understand the difference between a mistake and a lie but you never respond.

    The question merits no response, obviously.

    Wasn’t it you who claimed that Obama was a habitual liar and then when pressed for examples cited statements he made in his book-

    No. You’re welcome.

  452. avatar
    misha July 14, 2010 at 3:48 pm #

    Bovril: Oh and Jakey, The phrase you so relish, “anchor baby”….? The legal term is “US Citizen” and denotes an NBC who can run for Prez.Don’t like it, feel free to petion your political reps to try and get a Constitutional Amendment passed.

    Jindal and Michelle Malkin were anchor babies. And here is what is going to happen:

    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2009/10/likely-scenario.html

  453. avatar
    misha July 14, 2010 at 3:50 pm #

    yguy: The question merits no response, obviously.

    You just gave one. [snicker]

  454. avatar
    PetJake July 14, 2010 at 4:06 pm #

    Bovril: So, when Fukino states she has VERIFIED it means SEEN and CHECKED and that it passes all the necessary legal needs to be accepted as a legally valid and binding document.”

    ========================================================================
    I’m not sure if you were the last one to be commenting on what I originally said, or if yours was simply the last epithet-laden diatribe on the subject I saw, let me restate the proverbial, “It” so there is no confusion as to what “It” means to you or anyone else.

    Fukino could have said, and should have said, “I have seen and verified Obama’s original birth certificate which {states, confirms, shows, demonstrates, proves} that Obama was born in Hawaii IF that is what she meant to say. But, she said nothing even remotely close to “It”
    In fact, on the second go around, on 07/27/;09, Fukino dispenses with the words, “birth certificate,” altogether. What she actually said, and I quote, was “Vital records,” which include death certificates and marriage certificates, in addition to birth certificates. Darned if I know which vital records she meant.

    Conversely, what I have definitely seen and verified, is that people’s personal perceptions and interpretations of “It” – as impassioned as they are worded – do nothing to clarify the origin or contents of “the original birth certificate that Fukino claimed, on 10/31/08, that Hawaii has in its possession” – nor does it provide any reference to that artist’s rendering of a Hawaiian Certification of Live Birth posted on Obama’s website which is, most assuredly, not “It.”

  455. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 14, 2010 at 4:10 pm #

    PetJake: ========================================================================I’m not sure if you were the last one to be commenting on what I originally said, or if yours was simply the last epithet-laden diatribe on the subject I saw, let me restate the proverbial, “It” so there is no confusion as to what “It” means to you or anyone else. Fukino could have said, and should have said, “I have seen and verified Obama’s original birth certificate which {states, confirms, shows, demonstrates, proves} that Obama was born in Hawaii IF that is what she meant to say. But, she said nothing even remotely close to “It”In fact, on the second go around, on 07/27/;09, Fukino dispenses with the words, “birth certificate,” altogether. What she actually said, and I quote, was “Vital records,” which include death certificates and marriage certificates, in addition to birth certificates. Darned if I know which vital records she meant.Conversely, what I have definitely seen and verified, is that people’s personal perceptions and interpretations of “It” – as impassioned as they are worded – do nothing to clarify the origin or contents of “the original birth certificate that Fukino claimed, on 10/31/08, that Hawaii has in its possession” – nor does it provide any reference to that artist’s rendering of a Hawaiian Certification of Live Birth posted on Obama’s website which is, most assuredly, not “It.”

    verify   /ˈvɛrəˌfaɪ/ Show Spelled[ver-uh-fahy] Show IPA
    –verb (used with object), -fied, -fying.
    1. to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony; confirm; substantiate: Events verified his prediction.
    2. to ascertain the truth or correctness of, as by examination, research, or comparison: to verify a spelling.
    3. to act as ultimate proof or evidence of; serve to confirm.
    4. Law .
    a. to prove or confirm (an allegation).
    b. to state to be true, esp. in legal use, formally or upon oath.

    Saying she has seen and verified the document would be redundant. I’m sorry you have such a tough time with the english language

  456. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 14, 2010 at 4:13 pm #

    sfjeff: “Do you have me confused with someone else, or are you just lying?”Well, Yguy, I have repeatedly asked whether you understand the difference between a mistake and a lie but you never respond. Wasn’t it you who claimed that Obama was a habitual liar and then when pressed for examples cited statements he made in his book- but the statements were not in his book, and the statements were clearly mistakes not lies. So was your statement a mistake or a lie?

    A book he couldn’t name nor said he even read. Yguy as usual has no idea what he’s talking about

  457. avatar
    sfjeff July 14, 2010 at 4:15 pm #

    Okay, my apologies to Yguy- he did not say that Obama was a habitual liar here on this site,

    I confused Yguy with NC1.

    Note this was a mistake on my part, not a lie.

  458. avatar
    Majority Will July 14, 2010 at 4:16 pm #

    PetJake:
    ========================================================================
    I’m not sure if you were the last one to be commenting on what I originally said, or if yours was simply the last epithet-laden diatribe on the subject I saw, let me restate the proverbial, “It” so there is no confusion as to what “It” means to you or anyone else.
    Fukino could have said, and should have said, “I have seen and verified Obama’s original birth certificate which {states, confirms, shows, demonstrates, proves} that Obama was born in Hawaii IF that is what she meant to say. But, she said nothing even remotely close to “It”
    In fact, on the second go around, on 07/27/;09, Fukino dispenses with the words, “birth certificate,” altogether. What she actually said, and I quote, was “Vital records,” which include death certificates and marriage certificates, in addition to birth certificates.Darned if I know which vital records she meant.Conversely, what I have definitely seen and verified, is that people’s personal perceptions and interpretations of “It”– as impassioned as they are worded– do nothing to clarify the origin or contents of “the original birth certificate that Fukino claimed, on 10/31/08, that Hawaii has in its possession” – nor does it provide any reference to that artist’s rendering of a Hawaiian Certification of Live Birth posted on Obama’s website which is, most assuredly, not “It.”

    Pedantic birther nonsense. What you want isn’t actually relevant.

  459. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 14, 2010 at 4:17 pm #

    sfjeff: Okay, my apologies to Yguy- he did not say that Obama was a habitual liar here on this site, I confused Yguy with NC1. Note this was a mistake on my part, not a lie.

    Sometimes its hard to separate them. They all say the same crap. Are we sure it wasn’t yguy? I think it was another of his rants against factcheck that started it

  460. avatar
    Majority Will July 14, 2010 at 4:18 pm #

    sfjeff: Okay, my apologies to Yguy- he did not say that Obama was a habitual liar here on this site,
    I confused Yguy with NC1.
    Note this was a mistake on my part, not a lie.

    Unless of course they are the same person.

  461. avatar
    sfjeff July 14, 2010 at 4:23 pm #

    I will admit i am weak on grammer. I just tend to read things and go with what is evident to me reading them.

    When Dr. Fukino states, in the course of 2 press releases and one hearing that:
    a) “have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record”
    b) have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii
    c) that President Obama has posted a copy of the certificate on his former campaign website

    I don’t see any wiggle room there. She is confirming that she has personally seen the records that verify President Obama was born in Hawaii. Thats all I need.

    Parse the grammar all you want, she states in her official capacity that President Obama was born in Hawaii.

    You’ve got nothing but nits to pick.

  462. avatar
    yguy July 14, 2010 at 5:51 pm #

    sfjeff: Okay, my apologies to Yguy- he did not say that Obama was a habitual liar here on this site,

    Actually I probably say something to that effect, but not based on Obama’s book.

  463. avatar
    Majority Will July 14, 2010 at 8:53 pm #

    sfjeff: I will admit i am weak on grammer. I just tend to read things and go with what is evident to me reading them.
    When Dr. Fukino states, in the course of 2 press releases and one hearing that:
    a) “have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record”
    b) have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii
    c) that President Obama has posted a copy of the certificate on his former campaign websiteI don’t see any wiggle room there. She is confirming that she has personally seen the records that verify President Obama was born in Hawaii. Thats all I need.
    Parse the grammar all you want, she states in her official capacity that President Obama was born in Hawaii.
    You’ve got nothing but nits to pick.

    All the arrogant, xenophobic birthers can do is chase shadows and pick at tiny insects in a pathetic and desperate attempt to convince anyone of their hopeless delusions.

  464. avatar
    Keith July 15, 2010 at 12:01 am #

    yguy:
    Do you have me confused with someone else, or are you just lying?
    Did you indeed? That’s funny, seeing I don’t remember ever conversing online with anyone named “Keith”.

    You are right. My wholehearted apology.

    I confused you with yawdle and I don’t know why that happened..

    I have no excuse, I was just wrong.

  465. avatar
    Keith July 15, 2010 at 7:19 am #

    yguy: Yguy

    Hmmm. I thought I had replied to this earlier today, but now I cannot find it.

    You are correct yguy and I wholeheartedly apologize.

    I did indeed confuse you with someone else: yawdle.

    I have no excuse, I just made a mistake.

    Mea Culpa

  466. avatar
    yguy July 15, 2010 at 2:42 pm #

    Fair enough, Keith, it’s forgotten.

    If you do take issue with anything I say, I encourage you to speak up, as I’m gonna have a hard time writing off someone with that kind of honesty. 😉

  467. avatar
    Majority Will July 15, 2010 at 10:18 pm #

    Meanwhile, Dr. Fukino’s integrity and professionalism will always outweigh any cowardly, delusional birther with no legal authority.

  468. avatar
    PetJake July 16, 2010 at 7:35 pm #

    sfjeff: I will admit i am weak on grammer. I just tend to read things and go with what is evident to me reading them.
    When Dr. Fukino states, in the course of 2 press releases and one hearing that:
    a) “have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record”
    b) have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii
    c) that President Obama has posted a copy of the certificate on his former campaign websiteI don’t see any wiggle room there. She is confirming that she has personally seen the records that verify President Obama was born in Hawaii. Thats all I need.
    Parse the grammar all you want, she states in her official capacity that President Obama was born in Hawaii.
    You’ve got nothing but nits to pick.

    \

    Of course you would feel the same way and say the same thing if Fukino had said that, “Barack Obama is not his real name and he was not born in the US.”

    Uness, you’re not really sincere about her credibility.

    However, there’s a basic problem with your statements, vis-a-vis, Fukino’s.

    “No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawaii.”

    Fukino’s statement above either totally invalidates all of what you said, or, what you said totally invalidates Fukino’s statement above

    I go with the latter. No other vital record in Hawaiian history has ever been handled like Obama’s, and it seems that many of you are in total agreement that the statements of a single State bureaucrat holds sway over the other 305,999,999 citizens in saying that none of them have any tangible interest in knowing, whether or not, the person running for President is who she says he is, as opposed to who she says he is.

    How come you didn’t take the word of Katherine Harris in the 2000 election?

  469. avatar
    sfjeff July 16, 2010 at 8:22 pm #

    “Of course you would feel the same way and say the same thing if Fukino had said that, “Barack Obama is not his real name and he was not born in the US.””

    If Dr. Fukino stated that Barack Obama was not born in the United States I would be clamouring for the FBI or whichever the appropriate law enforcement agency was, to investigate. As the Hawaiian official entrusted with such documents, a claim that Obama was not born in Hawaii would be suffiicient in my mind to instigate an investigation.

    Thank you- that is a great example. See if Birthers ever had any real proof, I would be fine with investigation, and if the evidence showed that President Obama knowingly committed fraud to become President, I would be all for his impeachment and criminal prosecution. But all the evidence shows otherwise.

    “Fukino’s statement above either totally invalidates all of what you said, or, what you said totally invalidates Fukino’s statement above”

    Not at all. In 2008 she made that statement. I have seen no evidence that contradicts the statement she made in 2008. And again, you are missing the trees for the forest. Her statements clearly say Obama was born in Hawaii, and that corroborates the COLB he presented to the American people. Thats all that matters.

    “it seems that many of you are in total agreement that the statements of a single State bureaucrat holds sway over the other 305,999,999 citizens in saying that none of them have any tangible interest in knowing, whether or not, the person running for President is who she says he is, as opposed to who she says he is.”

    Frankly, I find your statement confusing, but I will say that 69 million American voters said they believed he was a natural born citizen. The fact that the DOH has confirmed it is just icing on the cake.

    “How come you didn’t take the word of Katherine Harris in the 2000 election?”

    I supported everyone following the legal process to determine the election. Once the Supreme Court ruled in her favor, I was fine with it. Once Bush was announced the winner, I nodded my head and even though i voted against him, i announced that I hoped he had a very succesful presidency.

    See, the time to argue about whether a President is the President or not is before he gets sworn into office, not after.

  470. avatar
    Majority Will July 16, 2010 at 8:32 pm #

    sfjeff: “Of course you would feel the same way and say the same thing if Fukino had said that, “Barack Obama is not his real name and he was not born in the US.””If Dr. Fukino stated that Barack Obama was not born in the United States I would be clamouring for the FBI or whichever the appropriate law enforcement agency was, to investigate. As the Hawaiian official entrusted with such documents, a claim that Obama was not born in Hawaii would be suffiicient in my mind to instigate an investigation.
    Thank you- that is a great example. See if Birthers ever had any real proof, I would be fine with investigation, and if the evidence showed that President Obama knowingly committed fraud to become President, I would be all for his impeachment and criminal prosecution. But all the evidence shows otherwise.“Fukino’s statement above either totally invalidates all of what you said, or, what you said totally invalidates Fukino’s statement above”Not at all. In 2008 she made that statement. I have seen no evidence that contradicts the statement she made in 2008. And again, you are missing the trees for the forest. Her statements clearly say Obama was born in Hawaii, and that corroborates the COLB he presented to the American people. Thats all that matters.“it seems that many of you are in total agreement that the statements of a single State bureaucrat holds sway over the other 305,999,999 citizens in saying that none of them have any tangible interest in knowing, whether or not, the person running for President is who she says he is, as opposed to who she says he is.”Frankly, I find your statement confusing, but I will say that 69 million American voters said they believed he was a natural born citizen. The fact that the DOH has confirmed it is just icing on the cake.
    “How come you didn’t take the word of Katherine Harris in the 2000 election?”I supported everyone following the legal process to determine the election. Once the Supreme Court ruled in her favor, I was fine with it. Once Bush was announced the winner, I nodded my head and even though i voted against him, i announced that I hoped he had a very succesful presidency.
    See, the time to argue about whether a President is the President or not is before he gets sworn into office, not after.

    Interesting, sensible, logical reply to a bizarre post. Let’s see if the goalposts get moved or one of the other typical replies.

  471. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 16, 2010 at 8:35 pm #

    PetJake: Of course you would feel the same way and say the same thing if Fukino had said that, “Barack Obama is not his real name and he was not born in the US.”

    If she had said that, I would be calling for a congressional investigation. Only Congress can remove a president, and is certainly the proper venue for such an investigation.

  472. avatar
    PetJake July 16, 2010 at 9:59 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    If she had said that, I would be calling for a congressional investigation. Only Congress can remove a president, and is certainly the proper venue for such an investigation.

    Obama was not President when she made her first statement. And the folks up above still think she actually said anything having to do with a birth in Hawaii or the one-eyed COLB copy in 2008.

    Fukino dually reinforced what I said.

    I said that the only thing Fukino saw and verified is “possession” (and I don’t mean the Exorcist-type).

    Majority Will – I realize that you and some others are not in the habit of actually thinking about the meaning of words – you leave that for the media to do it for you – so, you can sit this one out.

    As proof, I resubmit Fukino’s concluding remark:

    “No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other the vital record in possession of the State of Hawaii.”

    And, as we all know, “Possession is 9/10th of the law” as well as the substance of Fukino’s pedantic statement

    ———–

    On another note, what passes for people’s understanding of world history on this site is definitely not of this world.

  473. avatar
    Sef July 16, 2010 at 10:40 pm #

    PetJake:
    Obama was not President when she made her first statement. And the folks up above still think she actually said anything having to do with a birth in Hawaii or the one-eyed COLB copy in 2008.Fukino dually reinforced what I said.I said that the only thing Fukino saw and verified is “possession” (and I don’t mean the Exorcist-type).Majority Will – I realize that you and some others are not in the habit of actually thinking about the meaning of words – you leave that for the media to do it for you – so, you can sit this one out.As proof, I resubmit Fukino’s concluding remark:
    And, as we all know, “Possession is 9/10th of the law” as well as the substance of Fukino’s pedantic statement———–On another note, what passes for people’s understanding of world history on this site is definitely not of this world.

    Hey folks, we go a live one!

  474. avatar
    Majority Will July 16, 2010 at 10:43 pm #

    Sef:
    Hey folks, we go a live one!

    And another lonely, arrogant sociopath. Ah, the terrified birther.

  475. avatar
    Majority Will July 16, 2010 at 10:48 pm #

    Sef: . . . a live one!

    And as I said, “Let’s see if the goalposts get moved or one of the other typical replies.”

    I know it was guaranteed but sometimes it’s fun to see where the roaches scatter each time the light comes on.

    Every rare once in a while it’s a weirder surprise.

  476. avatar
    Majority Will July 16, 2010 at 10:50 pm #

    The over the top arrogance and defensiveness seems to be a common birther trait whether of low or higher intelligence.

  477. avatar
    Majority Will July 16, 2010 at 11:02 pm #

    “Majority Will . . . you can sit this one out.”

    I know the sane will appreciate the literal irony of a birther saying this. It’s just a fun aside for the handle.

  478. avatar
    sfjeff July 16, 2010 at 11:19 pm #

    “Obama was not President when she made her first statement.”

    I find it interesting that you comment about that but don’t comment to my response to your challenge. I showed consistancy. I will say it again- if Dr. Fukino made a statement in the manner that she did, saying in a manner that any reasonable person would conclude meant that she was saying that Obama was not born in Hawaii. Yet you either lack the ability to understand straighforward statements or are intellectually unable to be consistant- you would embrace Dr. Fukino’s statement if she even hinted that President Obama was not born in Hawaii.

    “And the folks up above still think she actually said anything having to do with a birth in Hawaii or the one-eyed COLB copy in 2008.”

    Of course, because thats what she said.

  479. avatar
    Keith July 16, 2010 at 11:24 pm #

    PetJake: Fukino’s statement above either totally invalidates all of what you said, or, what you said totally invalidates Fukino’s statement above

    I go with the latter. No other vital record in Hawaiian history has ever been handled like Obama’s,

    What evidence do you have to back up that assertion?

    Other than the obvious extra verification birthers demanded and reported by Fukino, then rejected, in what way has Obama’s BC been handled in anyway different that any other Hawai’ian’s BC?

  480. avatar
    Keith July 16, 2010 at 11:26 pm #

    I’m replying to myself to clear up the grammar of my question…

    Keith: What evidence do you have to back up that assertion?

    Other than the obvious extra verification birthers demanded and reported by Fukino, then rejected by those birthers who asked for it in the first place, in what way has Obama’s BC been handled in anyway different that any other Hawai’ian’s BC?

  481. avatar
    jamese777 July 17, 2010 at 12:59 pm #

    Here’s a recent (May 2, 2010) statement from Dr. Fukino’s boss: Governor Linda Lingle, the Republican Governor or Hawaii:
    “You know, during the campaign of 2008, I was actually in the mainland campaigning for Sen. McCain. This issue kept coming up so much in the campaign, and again I think it’s one of those issues that is simply a distraction from the more critical issues that are facing the country. And so I had my health director, who is a physician by background, go personally view the birth certificate in the birth records of the Department of Health, and we issued a news release at that time saying that the president was, in fact, born at Kapi’olani Hospital in Honolulu, Hawaii. And that’s just a fact. And yet people continue to call up and e-mail and want to make it an issue. And I think it’s, again, a horrible distraction for the country by those people who continue this. … It’s been established. He was born here.”

  482. avatar
    Majority Will July 17, 2010 at 1:10 pm #

    jamese777: It’s been established. He was born here.”

    But you’re being asked to trust the baseless and nonsensical speculation by an anonymous, non-authoritative birther with obvious ulterior motives over the legal authority of the state of Hawaii with full faith and credit guaranteed by the Constitution.

    Case closed.

  483. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 26, 2010 at 11:08 pm #

    PetJake: Maybe YOU need to go back to the TOP of the post and read what this again:

    “Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawaii, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

    HAWAII HAS ON RECORD.

    NOT, “HAS SEEN”

    NOT, “HAS READ”

    NOT NOTHING.

    Don’t play stupid. One can’t verify that something is on record without seeing it and reading it. Such verbal gnat straining is exactly what I was writing about in my article.

  484. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 26, 2010 at 11:15 pm #

    PetJake: Let’s talk 2nd or 3rd grade, basic English.

    A sentence is comprised of three basic parts: subject, verb, and object.

    I feel safe to say that everyone has got the subject and the verb – actually two verbs – down pat. In fact, to the exclusion of all else.

    It’s that nasty “object” that is causing all the misinterpretation here.

    Take each of the two verbs individually. The subject and first verb is

    “I” + “have seen”

    The subject and second verb is

    “I” + “have verified”

    So far, so good.

    OK, so you have managed to capture the mindless literalism of a 2nd grader. Bravo.

  485. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) July 26, 2010 at 11:17 pm #

    PetJake:
    Obama was not President when she made her first statement. And the folks up above still think she actually said anything having to do with a birth in Hawaii or the one-eyed COLB copy in 2008.Fukino dually reinforced what I said.I said that the only thing Fukino saw and verified is “possession” (and I don’t mean the Exorcist-type).Majority Will – I realize that you and some others are not in the habit of actually thinking about the meaning of words – you leave that for the media to do it for you – so, you can sit this one out.As proof, I resubmit Fukino’s concluding remark:
    And, as we all know, “Possession is 9/10th of the law” as well as the substance of Fukino’s pedantic statement———–On another note, what passes for people’s understanding of world history on this site is definitely not of this world.

    Now Jake I have a question. If Fukino said just the opposite in her statement would you still be parsing her words and trying to say she didn’t say what she said like you are doing now. Verification by the very definition means that she examined the record and made a comparison to make sure it was valid. You keep straining logic with this continued swatting in the air and changing the meaning of words. People’s understanding of world history on this site far outweighs your lack of understanding of world history.

  486. avatar
    PetJake August 2, 2010 at 7:54 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Now Jake I have a question. If Fukino said just the opposite in her statement would you still be parsing her words and trying to say she didn’t say what she said like you are doing now. Verification by the very definition means that she examined the record and made a comparison to make sure it was valid. You keep straining logic with this continued swatting in the air and changing the meaning of words. People’s understanding of world history on this site far outweighs your lack of understanding of world history.

    .
    You’re joking, right? People’s understanding of world history on this site is absolutely pathetic and borderline criminal. It’s not anything like real history. It’s the same, recycled revisionist bullshit that’s been shoved down the throats of students by “progressive” professors for the last 30 years. Who was the it that said the Holocaust would never have happened if not for Europe’s defeat of the Ottomans? Tell that to the Armenians. Who was it that said they only recollect Muslim terrorism beginning in 1972? Ever hear of Yassir Arafat and the PLO? Read their 1964 Charter. It’s still in effect in the PA. Ever hear of Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, Hitler’s like-mined Arab ally? Or how about a guy named Mohammed? Yeah, he was a sweetheart to them “dirty Zionists” stealing Arab children so they can use their blood for bread, anjd plotting to spend the next 1,400 years raping and pillaging the known world, until he came to the rescue. That was the 1,002th Arabian night.
    .
    And you think my logic is faulty?
    .
    Do you stare at a container of orange juice because it says, “Concentrate?”
    .
    I don’t grab a word and to run to Merriam-Webster like you did just to figure out what Fukino said. A word derives its meaning from the context in which it was used, and the context of Fukino’s statement, especially the prelude, was to fool people exactly like you.
    .
    The preamble was a bunch of high-falooting words that, if her statement stopped short of her saying the word, “verify” you would fill it in for her.
    .
    I know what she said, and she sad zero about where Obama was born and zero about the type of birth certificate that Hawaii allegedly has on record in its possession. Did you even know there were five different types of Hawaiian birth certificates, and that they are quite different from each other. Of course, that does not matter because you have made up your mind that, despite what you hear about Obama, you are sure it cannot be true.
    .
    But, Oh golly! What if the Birthers are right?
    .
    I believe that you would rather let America go up in flames than to admit you were wrong and Birthers are right..
    That kind of dissonance is lethal in the hands of those who cannot deal with it.

  487. avatar
    Majority Will August 2, 2010 at 8:02 pm #

    PetJake:
    .
    You’re joking, right? People’s understanding of world history on this site is absolutely pathetic and borderline criminal. It’s not anything like real history. It’s the same, recycled revisionist bullshit that’s been shoved down the throats of students by “progressive” professors for the last 30 years. Who was the it that said the Holocaust would never have happened if not for Europe’s defeat of the Ottomans? Tell that to the Armenians. Who was it that said they only recollect Muslim terrorism beginning in 1972? Ever hear of Yassir Arafat and the PLO? Read their 1964 Charter. It’s still in effect in the PA. Ever hear of Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, Hitler’s like-mined Arab ally? Or how about a guy named Mohammed?Yeah, he was a sweetheart to them “dirty Zionists” stealing Arab children so they can use their blood for bread, anjd plotting to spend the next 1,400 years raping and pillaging the known world, until he came to the rescue. That was the 1,002th Arabian night.
    .
    And you think my logic is faulty?
    .
    Do you stare at a container of orange juice because it says, “Concentrate?”
    .
    I don’t grab a word and to run to Merriam-Webster like you did just to figure out what Fukino said. A word derives its meaning from the context in which it was used, and the context of Fukino’s statement, especially the prelude, was to fool people exactly like you.
    .
    The preamble was a bunch of high-falooting words that, if her statement stopped short of her saying the word, “verify” you would fill it in for her.
    .
    I know what she said, and she sad zero about where Obama was born and zero about the type of birth certificate that Hawaii allegedly has on record in its possession. Did you even know there were five different types of Hawaiian birth certificates, and that they are quite different from each other. Of course, that does not matter because you have made up your mind that, despite what you hear about Obama, you are sure it cannot be true.
    .
    But, Oh golly! What if the Birthers are right?
    .
    I believe that you would rather let America go up in flames than to admit you were wrong and Birthers are right..
    That kind of dissonance is lethal in the hands of those who cannot deal with it.

    So, where’s your training and credentials in forensic science and forensic document examination?

  488. avatar
    sfjeff August 2, 2010 at 8:57 pm #

    Wow PJ- hyped up a wee bit? Next time don’t spend 6 or 7 days working up a steam on your reply.

    “I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Director of the Hawai’i State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen.

    You are wrong. Wrong about pretty much everything you post. But especially wrong about this.

  489. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) August 2, 2010 at 10:17 pm #

    PetJake:
    .
    You’re joking, right? People’s understanding of world history on this site is absolutely pathetic and borderline criminal. It’s not anything like real history. It’s the same, recycled revisionist bullshit that’s been shoved down the throats of students by “progressive” professors for the last 30 years. Who was the it that said the Holocaust would never have happened if not for Europe’s defeat of the Ottomans? Tell that to the Armenians. Who was it that said they only recollect Muslim terrorism beginning in 1972? Ever hear of Yassir Arafat and the PLO? Read their 1964 Charter. It’s still in effect in the PA. Ever hear of Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, Hitler’s like-mined Arab ally? Or how about a guy named Mohammed?Yeah, he was a sweetheart to them “dirty Zionists” stealing Arab children so they can use their blood for bread, anjd plotting to spend the next 1,400 years raping and pillaging the known world, until he came to the rescue. That was the 1,002th Arabian night.
    .
    And you think my logic is faulty?
    .
    Do you stare at a container of orange juice because it says, “Concentrate?”
    .
    I don’t grab a word and to run to Merriam-Webster like you did just to figure out what Fukino said. A word derives its meaning from the context in which it was used, and the context of Fukino’s statement, especially the prelude, was to fool people exactly like you.
    .
    The preamble was a bunch of high-falooting words that, if her statement stopped short of her saying the word, “verify” you would fill it in for her.
    .
    I know what she said, and she sad zero about where Obama was born and zero about the type of birth certificate that Hawaii allegedly has on record in its possession. Did you even know there were five different types of Hawaiian birth certificates, and that they are quite different from each other. Of course, that does not matter because you have made up your mind that, despite what you hear about Obama, you are sure it cannot be true.
    .
    But, Oh golly! What if the Birthers are right?
    .
    I believe that you would rather let America go up in flames than to admit you were wrong and Birthers are right..
    That kind of dissonance is lethal in the hands of those who cannot deal with it.

    Once again Pollarik such a long response and you said absolutely nothing. Ahh yes Dr Fukino is intentionally trying to mislead people. Its not like she has a job to do she must go about changing the meaning of words and you alone are the one to figure out what you think her true meaning is. In the context of her several statements she made it quite clear she verified the document against his records and found they were in compliance. Now once again as a supposed documents expert you have failed miserably to get a damned thing right.

    Her statement was quite clear that Obama is a natural born citizen based on the documents she’s examined one of them being the COLB. Extremists like you love to attack people’s patriotism but its you who would rather bring down America in flames because of your hatred of one mine who rightfully is president. You lost get over it. Enough with your cowardly words.

  490. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy August 2, 2010 at 11:26 pm #

    It appears that petjake is having considerable success poking the ant hill and stirring up the ants.

  491. avatar
    AnotherBird August 3, 2010 at 12:01 am #

    PetJake: The preamble was a bunch of high-falooting words that, if her statement stopped short of her saying the word, “verify” you would fill it in for her.
    .
    I know what she said, and she sad zero about where Obama was born and zero about the type of birth certificate that Hawaii allegedly has on record in its possession. Did you even know there were five different types of Hawaiian birth certificates, and that they are quite different from each other. Of course, that does not matter because you have made up your mind that, despite what you hear about Obama, you are sure it cannot be true.
    .
    But, Oh golly! What if the Birthers are right?

    So, first you ignore the fact that Hawaii explicitly stated that Obama is a natural born citizen, and then you complain about the absence of the word “verify.” It seems that you have a problem with English or you are past the normal state of disillusion.

    It is baffling that no one in the state of Hawaii has claimed that there are five distinct birth certificates, while rejecting a clear statement from the State of Hawaii.

    Sorry, I will have to conclude that you are past the extreme state of disillusion.

  492. avatar
    AnotherBird August 3, 2010 at 12:17 am #

    PetJake:
    .
    And you think my logic is faulty?
    ….

    The preamble was a bunch of high-falooting words that, if her statement stopped short of her saying the word, “verify” you would fill it in for her.
    .
    I know what she said, and she sad zero about where Obama was born and zero about the type of birth certificate that Hawaii allegedly has on record in its possession. Did you even know there were five different types of Hawaiian birth certificates, and that they are quite different from each other. Of course, that does not matter because you have made up your mind that, despite what you hear about Obama, you are sure it cannot be true.
    .
    But, Oh golly! What if the Birthers are right?
    .
    I believe that you would rather let America go up in flames than to admit you were wrong and Birthers are right..
    That kind of dissonance is lethal in the hands of those who cannot deal with it.

    Yep, past the extreme state of disillusion. No, you logic isn’t faulty. It is the fact it doesn’t exist.

    Here is part of the original statement as seen both on the Hawaii State website and in the above article.

    “have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.”

    You want to complain about “verify” when “accordance with state policies and procedures” mean that she has “verified” everything.

    Let me repeat Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

    You lost get over it. Enough with your cowardly words.

  493. avatar
    sfjeff August 3, 2010 at 1:01 am #

    “But, Oh golly! What if the Birthers are right?”

    Yeah, what if the Birthers are right?

    What if the President was born at home?

    Or what if Grannie and Momma conspired with Hawaiian officials to smuggle baby Barack into Hawaii and register him as a U.S. Citizen so that 50 years later he can be President?

    What exactly will be the difference between today and tomorrow if those facts were proven to be true?

    Barack Obama will still be the exact same person, promulating the exact same policies. The same persons who detest him now will still detest him. And unless you can show me that he either knowlingly defrauded the American people, or is a puppet of a foreign government, I really wonder how the difference between today and tomorrow would really, really matter.

  494. avatar
    G August 3, 2010 at 1:35 am #

    Pet Jake aka outed hack fraudster Ron Polarik, is just cranky and whiny and lashing out. It has been a few days for the birthers, with all of the FOIL info shredding many of their remaining fantasies. So, they’ve been dealt some real severe kicks in the nuts and all they can do is froth and give meaningless nonsensical angry rants.

    All of Polarik’s recent posts can pretty much be summed up as nothing but: *Waaaaaaaah!!!*