Main Menu

Examining Trump’s documentation

Just for fun, I’ve been Polariking1 Donald Trump’s City of New York birth certificate. What I was primarily looking for was a raised seal, and that wasn’t anywhere to be seen. However, when I adjusted levels, I did see that the bottom part of the form was in two very distinct colors, which I can’t readily explain. That image follows:

Trump birth certificate with global lighting levels adjusted

Here is the unretouched image extracted from the PDF:

Trump certificate extracted from PDF

And here is the image with the negative section inverted and lightened.

Trump Certificate with positive image

What appears in the upper left seems to be a rubber stamp. I can’t be sure but it looks like:

BUREAU OF RECORDS
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH
BOROUGH OF QUEENS

1Polariking: Looking at images at high magnification and imagining things that aren’t there.

, , , ,

45 Responses to Examining Trump’s documentation

  1. avatar
    JohnC March 29, 2011 at 6:10 pm #

    Ah yes… But does the birth certificate say whether his Scottish-born mother was ever naturalized? No!!

    So we have no way of knowing whether Trump is a Vattel-approved natural-born citizen from this document.

    WHAT ARE YOU HIDING MR. TRUMP????

  2. avatar
    JoZeppy March 29, 2011 at 6:28 pm #

    And of course the irony is, the one that looks most like what they want the President to produce, could not get him a passport (assuming there is no raised seal), and one he could get a passport with, and would be admissiable in court (assuming there is a seal, which I can’t see) looks most like the President’s…or who knows…perhaps none of them have a seal, and none of them are of any value?

  3. avatar
    Sean March 29, 2011 at 6:34 pm #

    HA! FAKE!

  4. avatar
    Dave March 29, 2011 at 6:34 pm #

    I keep reading comments here that people have seen a Trump BC that looks like the President’s — but the only other Trump BC I’ve seen is the worthless souvenir. What am I missing?

  5. avatar
    Suranis March 29, 2011 at 6:35 pm #

    I don’t see any stamp with a date of issue!

  6. avatar
    JohnC March 29, 2011 at 6:35 pm #

    I can’t wait for all the Polariks out there, who have built careers out of trying to prove Obama’s COLB is a forgery, to spontaneously pronounce Trump has released his birth certificate on the basis of a crummy, pixellated digital image posted on the internet.

  7. avatar
    Whatever4 March 29, 2011 at 6:36 pm #

    I asked this on Fogbow, a few minutes ago, repeating here:

    The TBC3 (long form) says it’s a COPY of a certificate of birth. I can’t see a seal. But I have a document from PA that says Notification of Birth Registration that was issued free, that seems to be for correcting errors. Trump’s doesn’t have a seal like these attached. Could this be the same, or am I becoming a Trumpfer?

    http://www.foreigndocumentsexpress.com/ny/images/Birth%20certificates/NYC%20Birth%20Certificate_long%20form_3.jpg
    http://zoelund.com/docs/BirthCertificate.jpg
    http://www.apostilla.com/images/state/newyorkstevenschwartzbirthdeathcertificate.gif

    Does anyone have a NYC BC hanging around?

  8. avatar
    JohnC March 29, 2011 at 6:37 pm #

    Trump’s birth certificate was registered… BUT WAS IT ACCEPTED???

  9. avatar
    Whatever4 March 29, 2011 at 6:37 pm #

    The Newsmax one is a COLB short form: http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/DonaldTrump-BirthCertificate-newsmax/2011/03/29/id/391050

  10. avatar
    Suranis March 29, 2011 at 6:39 pm #

    Dave:
    I keep reading comments here that people have seen a Trump BC that looks like the President’s — but the only other Trump BC I’ve seen is the worthless souvenir. What am I missing?

    http://www.newsmax.com/getattachment/44d19bb5-b4c6-4b57-b059-92dae5f2acd5/receipt-birth-certificate.jpg

    Trump’s team released that to newsmax with a story that it only cost him 30 to get it, and when people yelled that it was just like Obama’s but with less info, he released the above one.

  11. avatar
    Jules March 29, 2011 at 6:40 pm #

    JohnC:
    Ah yes…But does the birth certificate say whether his Scottish-born mother was ever naturalized?No!!

    So we have no way of knowing whether Trump is a Vattel-approved natural-born citizen from this document.

    WHAT ARE YOU HIDING MR. TRUMP????

    Those who argue that Vattel defined natural-born citizenship in the United States frequently conflate birth to a foreigner with birth as a dual national. However, the British law at the time of Trump’s birth would not have allowed the mother to transmit British nationality. This raises an interesting question for those arguing about the magical and mysterious qualities of natural-born status: Which is it that matters? The status of both parents under US law or the status of the child under foreign law?

  12. avatar
    Whatever4 March 29, 2011 at 6:47 pm #

    Doc: Did my post go into moderation or did I mess up? It had 3 links, might that be it?

  13. avatar
    JohnC March 29, 2011 at 7:12 pm #

    Jules: Those who argue that Vattel defined natural-born citizenship in the United States frequently conflate birth to a foreigner with birth as a dual national. However, the British law at the time of Trump’s birth would not have allowed the mother to transmit British nationality. This raises an interesting question for those arguing about the magical and mysterious qualities of natural-born status: Which is it that matters? The status of both parents under US law or the status of the child under foreign law?

    I make my statements about Vattel fully tongue-in-cheek, of course. In fact, birthers haven’t even gotten Vattel’s rule right, let alone whether the U.S. ever bought into it. Although we keep reading English translations of Section 212 in the Law of Nations that refer to “citizens who are parents,” the actual French roughly translates to “citizen parents.” Given that Vattel made this reference in connection with natural-born citizens as a collective, we are left with an ambiguity. “Citizen parents” in this context could be read as requiring multiple citizen parents per child. Alternatively, it could also be read as requiring each individual natural-born citizen to have a citizen parent (but perhaps not two citizen parents).

    Almost certainly, Vattel was referring to the latter, since he also stated in the same paragraph: “I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a FATHER who is a citizen.” Vattel continues on this line in Section 215, when he states: “By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers.”

    Birthers get around this by saying that in those days the wife’s citizenship followed that of the husband, so the two-citizen-parent standard wasn’t worth expressly mentioning. But that’s nothing but wishful thinking on the part of birthers.

    Moreover, Vattel never argued that “natural-born citizens” were a subset of citizens by birth. He believed that either your father was a citizen – or you weren’t. Under Section 213, such non-citizens are called “foreigners” by Vattel.

    In short, if birthers were honest, they would argue this: To be a natural-born U.S. citizen, your father must be a U.S. citizen. If your father is not a U.S. citizen, you’re a natural-born foreigner, who has only been made a second-class citizen by virtue of the Constitution.

  14. avatar
    James M March 29, 2011 at 8:43 pm #

    A New York Certificate of Birth is not directly comparable to a Hawaii Certification of Live Birth. Where is Donald Trump’s Hawaii Certification of Live Birth? I thought they gave those out to everyone regardless of where they were born :-)

  15. avatar
    Sean March 29, 2011 at 8:56 pm #

    James M:
    A New York Certificate of Birth is not directly comparable to a Hawaii Certification of Live Birth.Where is Donald Trump’s Hawaii Certification of Live Birth?I thought they gave those out to everyone regardless of where they were born
    That’s true. Apparently you can into any Hawaiian hospital and get one. I hope that line sticks with him.

  16. avatar
    James M March 29, 2011 at 9:03 pm #

    Just to be fair, it is worth noting that Trump has produced what appears to be a copy derived from vintage microform. The provenance of this document will, at a gut level, register as authentically from the 1940s, whereas the Obama COLB is very obviously a 21st century artifact that has no literal connection to a vintage document. This, more than any other factor, is what mostly drove the birther movement and is at the core of the whole “long form” nonsense.

    (For the record, as most of you should be well aware if you read me, I consider it nonsense, and engage in the whole thing strictly for its entertainment value)…

    Still, Obama could go a long way toward shutting up a lot of loud idiots, if he had a vintage document. I realize I say that at the risk of sounding like a long-former, but the point is that other politicians may be suffering as a result of the birther phenomenon. Now it has the face of one Donald Trump, of all people, who appears to have produced, of all things, a vintage copy of a New York birth certificate.

    It’s the vintage that matters, not the “longness” of the form. Just sayin’

  17. avatar
    Rickey March 29, 2011 at 10:02 pm #

    It isn’t apparent when that copy of the New York City birth certificate was issued, but it doesn’t surprise me that it doesn’t have a raised seal. I have my original New York birth certificate which was issued a week after I was born in 1948, and it does not have any kind of seal, only a registrar’s signature. Mine also contains less information than Trump’s, I wasn’t born in New York City, so my birth certificate form was developed by the New York State Department of Health. People who are born in New York City have their birth certificates issued by the New York City Department of Health, which makes its own forms.

    When I ordered a copy of my birth certificate in 1988, it came with a raised seal.

  18. avatar
    Whatever4 March 29, 2011 at 10:30 pm #

    Posted over at Fogbow, but I think I lost it when I posted it here:

    The TBC3 (long form) says it’s a COPY of a certificate of birth. I can’t see a seal. But I have a document from PA that says Notification of Birth Registration that was issued free, that seems to be for correcting errors. Trump’s doesn’t have a seal like these attached. Could this be the same, or am I becoming a Trumpfer?

    http://www.foreigndocumentsexpress.com/ny/images/Birth%20certificates/NYC%20Birth%20Certificate_long%20form_3.jpg
    http://zoelund.com/docs/BirthCertificate.jpg
    http://www.apostilla.com/images/state/newyorkstevenschwartzbirthdeathcertificate.gif

    Rickey — did you try for a passport with the original one?

  19. avatar
    Sean March 29, 2011 at 10:32 pm #

    James M:
    Just to be fair, it is worth noting that Trump has produced what appears to be a copy derived from vintage microform.The provenance of this document will, at a gut level, register as authentically from the 1940s, whereas the Obama COLB is very obviously a 21st century artifact that has no literal connection to a vintage document.This, more than any other factor, is what mostly drove the birther movement and is at the core of the whole “long form” nonsense.

    (For the record, as most of you should be well aware if you read me, I consider it nonsense, and engage in the whole thing strictly for its entertainment value)…

    Still, Obama could go a long way toward shutting up a lot of loud idiots, if he had a vintage document.I realize I say that at the risk of sounding like a long-former, but the point is that other politicians may be suffering as a result of the birther phenomenon.Now it has the face of one Donald Trump, of all people, who appears to have produced, of all things, a vintage copy of a New York birth certificate.

    It’s the vintage that matters, not the “longness” of the form.Just sayin’

    Well, if any of the birther bills go through, I’m sure Obama will comply. But of course that would be called a fake.

  20. avatar
    Black Lion March 29, 2011 at 11:04 pm #

    WND Uncritically Repeats Trump’s Bogus Birther Claim
    Topic: WorldNetDaily

    A March 28 WorldNetDaily article uncritically promotes Donald Trump’s claim that Presieent Obama has “spent millions of dollars trying to get away from this issue” of his birth certificate and eligibility. But WND did not serve up any evidence Trump has to back up the claim — perhaps because there isn’t any, as WND should know.

    WND reported in October 2009 that “President Obama has paid nearly $1.7 million to his top eligibility lawyer since the election” — a claim that wasn’t exactly true. The evidence WND presented showed only that Obama’s campaign, reorganized after the 2008 election as Organizing for America, paid that money to the law firm representing the campaign, but no proof was offered that all of the money — or, for that matter, any of it — went toward addressing “eligibility” questions.

    WND also touted how “Trump released a copy of his own hospital-generated birth certificate to the media today, listing New York City’s Jamaica Hospital as his place of birth on June 14, 1946.” But as we’ve noted, the certificate was issued by a hospital, not the state-issued certificate he’s demanding from Obama. That makes it even less valuable the certification of live birth Obama’s campaign released, which, unlike Trump’s certificate, was issued by a state agency.

    You’d think WND would call Trump out on that. But since he’s doing WND’s dirty work in promoting the birther narrative, Joseph Farah and Co. are apparently going to give him a pass on the certificate’s relatively meaninglessness.

  21. avatar
    Lucas_d_Smith@live.com March 30, 2011 at 2:12 am #

    Dear Doc Conspiracy,

    Ron Polarik is a digital quack nutcase. He’d be better off if he could find a different hobby or something and give the digital imaging crap a rest for a while (or maybe forever!).

  22. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 30, 2011 at 2:12 am #

    Whatever4: Doc: Did my post go into moderation or did I mess up? It had 3 links, might that be it?

    It was in the SPAM bucket for reasons unknown.

  23. avatar
    G March 30, 2011 at 2:27 am #

    Lucas_d_Smith@live.com: Ron Polarik is a digital quack nutcase. He’d be better off if he could find a different hobby or something and give the digital imaging crap a rest for a while (or maybe forever!).

    Agreed.

  24. avatar
    TigerClaws March 30, 2011 at 3:09 am #

    Here’s an article where a Hawaiian official states they saw the original:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32180625/ns/politics-white_house

    So… show it to us! Make it public like other people, like Trump, just talking about running for POTUS have done.

  25. avatar
    TigerClaws March 30, 2011 at 3:12 am #

    Link to a 1963 Hawaiian Birth Certificate:

    http://snarkybytes.com/2008/06/18/hawaii-birth-certificate-1963/

    And one from 1961:

    http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=105347

    This is the document Obama has yet to produce.

    If a Certificate of Live Birth wasn’t enough for Trump, why is Obama held to a different standard?

  26. avatar
    The Magic M March 30, 2011 at 3:47 am #

    > If a Certificate of Live Birth wasn’t enough for Trump

    Who said it “wasn’t enough”? Enough for what?

    Besides, if by “Certificate of Live Birth” you mean Trump’s hospital souvenir, that is not a certificate because it is not certified by the state. Obama’s COLB, on the other hand, *is* certified by the state and thus a real certificate.

    (Besides, Trump’s souvenir does not say “Live Birth”; does that allow me to conclude baby Donald was not a live birth and some other guy has stolen poor dead Donald’s identity?)

  27. avatar
    Jules March 30, 2011 at 5:59 am #

    TigerClaws:
    Link to a 1963 Hawaiian Birth Certificate:

    http://snarkybytes.com/2008/06/18/hawaii-birth-certificate-1963/

    And one from 1961:

    http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=105347

    This is the document Obama has yet to produce.

    If a Certificate of Live Birth wasn’t enough for Trump, why is Obama held to a different standard?

    Those are certified copies issued by the State of Hawaii in 1998 and 1966, respectively. Someone born in Hawaii in 1961 or 1966 who orders a birth certificate today will not receive a certified copy in either format. Either of those people who ordered an official birth certificate today would receive a certified abstract copy of information taken from a computer database and printed onto security paper.

  28. avatar
    Bovril March 30, 2011 at 6:03 am #

    TigerClaws,

    We’ll make the assuption that you’re not a Birther out of charity.

    It’s real simple although not simple enough for the small and deluded number of muppets out there.

    Hawai’i DOES NOT ISSUE “LONG FORMS” full stop, end of story. Just like over 15 other states in the US, it is not available, in hawai;i’s case since at least 2001.

    What they issue is regarded as wholly sufficient and proper for all legal purposes.

    In the REAL Constitution, unlike the Birfoons distorted and seditious imaginary version, the President doesn’t get to demand a state has to change it’s records or internal working processes to his satisfaction.

  29. avatar
    Scientist March 30, 2011 at 6:44 am #

    TigerClaws: If a Certificate of Live Birth wasn’t enough for Trump, why is Obama held to a different standard?

    A Certificate of Live Birth is MORE than enough for Trump, Obama or anyone else. The United States managed to elect Presidents from 1790-2004 without looking at pieces of paper at all.

    We don’t need certificates or any other pieces of paper. Just look at facts and use your brain (if you have one):

    1. Donald Trump’s parents lived in New York City. Therefore, where was he born? New York City. Do I believe his mother, who was born in Scotland and doubtless had relatives there, ran back to Scotland (home of one of the world’s great hospitals, the University of Edinburgh) to have her baby? Of course not.

    2. Barack Obama’s parents lived in Honolulu. Therefore, where was he born? Honolulu. Do I believe his mother who had no family or friends in Kenya (home of no world-renowned hospital at all) ran there to have her baby? Of course not.

    You have to admit, there was more reason for Trump to have been born in Scotlland than for Obama to have been born in Kenya. Yet neither were. They were born where their parents lived, in NYC and Honolulu, respectively. And I didn’t need ANY certificates, long, short or in-between to figure it out.

  30. avatar
    Suranis March 30, 2011 at 7:43 am #

    If a Certificate of Live Birth wasn’t enough for Trump, why is Obama held to a different standard?

    It is enough for Trump.

    Donald Trump made the mistake of releasing his Certification of Birth yesterday as well as the Certificate of Birth Registration above, and his COB is functionally identical to President Obama’s. Which shows that the guy has a COB, boasted it only took him 30 dollars to get it, and probably used it to get his passport ETC. The copy above is a copy of his vital records, not the “original birth certificate”. Its up to the lawyers to tell if that copy would be admissible for use as a Birth certificate (there are various factors that stand against it, like it isn’t stamped and has no raised seal), but his Certification of Birth most certainly would be valid for all purposes.

  31. avatar
    Majority Will March 30, 2011 at 7:58 am #

    TigerClaws:
    Here’s an article where a Hawaiian official states they saw the original:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32180625/ns/politics-white_house

    So… show it to us! Make it public like other people, like Trump, just talking about running for POTUS have done.

    I’m sure you’re no hypocrite, so show us where you demanded that the same information must be made public from McCain or Bush or any other presidential candidate.

    Oh wait. You said “just talking about running.”

    Have you demanded to see every birth form from Huckabee, Pawlenty, Daniels, Bachmann, Barbour, Cain, Christie, DeMint, Gingrich, Graham, Palin, Jindal, Ron or Rand Paul, Romney, Root, Rubio, Santorum, or Thune?

    You did, right? Where is your outrage for any of these people?

    When and where have you screamed, “So… show it to us!” for any of these other candidates?

    Why not? What’s your real motive?

  32. avatar
    kimba March 30, 2011 at 9:01 am #

    James M: It’s the vintage that matters, not the “longness” of the form. Just sayin’

    It’s more than just the vintage-ness, it’s the mistaken idea that a document that was issued nearer to the time of birth is more valid. It’s complete birther nonsense. The idea that the “modern” form Trump first gave Newsmax is “better” than this “vintage” form is silly and should be ridiculed. Any office that issues copies of birth records would confirm they’re all equal and no one has to account for where their other copies have gone to when they request new ones.

    I think Obama does have a “vintage” copy. Perhaps the same one folded into his mother’s papers that he wrote about in “Dreams..”. Instead of handing it over to the campaign to use for whatever it needed, they requested copies to make sure the old one didn’t get lost. Perhaps it wasn’t in good enough condition to cart around the country to various secretaries of state offices. It doesn’t matter. The copy he posted on his campaign website is equal to a vintage.

    The real hypocrisy here is birthers have readily accepted a picture of Trump’s, with no other records and they won’t accept a picture of Obama’s and need all sorts of other documentation. Why? There’s only one answer. Trump is white.

  33. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 30, 2011 at 9:12 am #

    TigerClaws: Here’s an article where a Hawaiian official states they saw the original:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32180625/ns/politics-white_houseSo… show it to us! Make it public like other people, like Trump, just talking about running for POTUS have done.

    There is no requirement for a President to show his original birth certificate from the day he was born. No other President has had to do that.

  34. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 30, 2011 at 9:13 am #

    TigerClaws: Link to a 1963 Hawaiian Birth Certificate:http://snarkybytes.com/2008/06/18/hawaii-birth-certificate-1963/And one from 1961:http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=105347This is the document Obama has yet to produce.If a Certificate of Live Birth wasn’t enough for Trump, why is Obama held to a different standard?

    No one has said the COLB wasn’t enough for trump. People are just pointing out the birther’s hypocrisy. Many of the supposed things missing from Obama’s Birth Certificate are missing from Trumps yet the birthers have nothing to say about it. The COLB from both Trump and Obama is enough.

  35. avatar
    kimba March 30, 2011 at 9:18 am #

    Said that wrong. The idea that this “vintage” copy is better than the “modern” one Trump gave Newsmax is nonsense. I think it’s hilarious that Trump is the one the birthers have jumping when they say how high instead of Obama.

  36. avatar
    Eglenn harcsar March 30, 2011 at 9:32 am #

    I congratulate and am thankful for the creativity of those posting here who contribute polarking, trumpfer and vintage bc to the lexicon. These, and others, could prove to have the staying power of say watergate.

  37. avatar
    The Magic M March 30, 2011 at 9:39 am #

    > Many of the supposed things missing from Obama’s Birth Certificate are missing from Trumps yet the birthers have nothing to say about it.

    Not just that, Orly has called it (the souvenir version) a “long form birth certificate”. At least the bigger birther outlets weren’t *that* stupid. But if The Donald hadn’t followed up so quickly with his “real long form”, I’m sure they would have spun it in a similar way.

    But the biggest issue, IMO, is still the forensic analysis on the Trump BC that Doc C has suggested. If the birthers do not apply the same amount of pixel-peeping, fact-twisting scrutiny to the Trump BC, they have shown their real worth.

    At least the “registrar of records” signature looks so suspicious that 9 out of 10 birthers would have shouted “copy/pasted!” within seconds of seeing the rectangular section that does not match in colour – if this was on any Obama document, that is.

    I would love to see the Trump BC in a similar resolution as the Obama COLB, i.e. nearly 6 megapixels. I could give the birthers a tough time because I’m sure I’m at least as inventive as they are when it comes to find something where there’s nothing. I just wasn’t willing to use my skills for a bad cause. ;)

  38. avatar
    Thrifty March 30, 2011 at 10:05 am #

    Vattel Vattel Vattel. The terms “birtherism” and “stupidity” are practically synonymous, but this Vattel business takes the stupidity cake. The argument is not that previously undiscovered facts render Obama eligible. Rather facts that are publicly known, were known during the election, were known when the election was certified by Congress, and were known at the inauguration, supposedly render the man invalid.

    It’s just so staggeringly stupid because everyone *knows* that Barack Obama’s father was not a citizen at the time of Obama’s birth. Nobody denies it, the way people (rightfully so) deny that he was born in Kenya and smuggled to Hawaii. Yet despite all this, nobody in charge of running or certifying the election, at any level, said “Hey, this guy isn’t eligible to be president. We can’t let him be inaugurated!”

    It’s like if I ran some crusade during the 80s to declare that Ronald Reagan wasn’t eligible to be president because the Constitution says that no man who’s first, middle, and last names all contain the same number of letters is eligible to be president.

  39. avatar
    y_p_w March 30, 2011 at 11:18 am #

    Thrifty:

    It’s like if I ran some crusade during the 80s to declare that Ronald Reagan wasn’t eligible to be president because the Constitution says that no man who’s first, middle, and last names all contain the same number of letters is eligible to be president.

    Or perhaps because his BC was suspect due to the 31 year time lapse from birth to when it was written up and filed.

    I mean – It was probably well over 150 years where the US had Presidents born at a time when government issued birth certificates weren’t common.

  40. avatar
    Thrifty March 30, 2011 at 11:35 am #

    y_p_w: Or perhaps because his BC was suspect due to the 31 year time lapse from birth to when it was written up and filed.

    Nah. Screw birth certificates. I prefer to make up fictional requirements to exclude presidential candidates based on those requirements.

  41. avatar
    Fred March 30, 2011 at 11:40 am #

    and still he refuses to wear a lapel pin flag. Why does Trump hate America?

  42. avatar
    Majority Will March 30, 2011 at 11:55 am #

    Fred:
    and still he refuses to wear a lapel pin flag.Why does Trump hate America?

    ZING! Good one!

    And two of his three concubines wives were furriners!

    What is Trump hiding?

  43. avatar
    Majority Will March 30, 2011 at 11:59 am #

    Thrifty: It’s like if I ran some crusade during the 80s to declare that Ronald Reagan wasn’t eligible to be president because the Constitution says that no man who’s first, middle, and last names all contain the same number of letters is eligible to be president.

    Yeah, and each name has six letters. I remember doofuses through the years remarking that Ronald Wilson Reagan was a 6, a 6 and a 6. It’s such a shame stupidity can’t be painful.

  44. avatar
    The Magic M March 30, 2011 at 6:30 pm #

    Doesn’t “George Walker Bush-Jr” also make 666?
    In numerology, the only science is by which trick you can come up with the result you wanted to reach. ;)

  45. avatar
    Majority Will March 30, 2011 at 8:40 pm #

    The Magic M:
    Doesn’t “George Walker Bush-Jr” also make 666?
    In numerology, the only science is by which trick you can come up with the result you wanted to reach.

    Yes, the Lord of Dorkness.