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Is the seal bassackwards?

Update 3:

After further study, I will agree that Miss Tickly is half right. While there are optical illusions that make an embossed seal appear to be an impressed seal, I asked folks with real Hawaiian birth certificates what the real seal looks like. The answer is that the seal, when viewed with the text normal is impressed into the paper, not raised.

However, that is just how regular Hawaiian birth certificates are. Miss Tickly is an extreme literalist when reading regulations, and if you follow her, you would conclude that Hawaiian birth certificates are all illegal and invalid. One person’s impressed seal is another person’s embossed seal; it just depends on how you look at it. So yes, the seal is impressed, and no, there’s nothing special about Obama’s seal.

Following is the text of the article.

This one is courtesy of MissTickly from the Obama’s Garden blog and her article, The Audacity of Seal. I don’t know why birthers have to ramble on and on to make a simple point, but let me save you having to click the page down button 28 times and tell you what her article says (my words):

The caption (“State of Hawaii – Department of Health”) on a birth certificate’s embossed seal, when viewed from the raised (embossed) side, should read normally, but on Obama’s it is a mirror image.

OK, did everybody understand that? The rest of the Obama’s Garden article, and particularly stories of threats against their children, doesn’t add much to my one-sentence explanation except to spin an atmosphere of intrigue and to suggest that she’s come upon a bombshell error in the COLB that threatens the Obama administration to its foundations.

Part of the argument hinges on one essential detail: which side of Obama’s Certification of Live Birth is raised. Obama’s Garden helps us figure that out with the following convenient illustration:

Seal images from Obama's Garden blog

That picture makes it crystal clear which is which — or does it? Here is the same image, rotated 180 degrees (turned upside down).

Preceding imaged turned upside down

What happened? The raised and lowered portions seem to have been switched, but all I did was show the same picture from a different direction.

The shading information in images that depict surfaces of 3D objects cannot be perceived correctly unless the direction of the illuminating light source is known, and, in the absence of this knowledge, adults interpret such images by assuming that light comes from above.

Footprints Sticking Out of the Sand (Part I): Children’s Perception of Naturalistic and Embossed Symbol Stimuli

Let me give you two more examples of FactCheck image number 7, this time viewed from the side:

FactCheck photo 7 rotated counterclockwise 90 degrees

Same FactCheck Photo 7 rotated clockwise 90 degrees

Even though these are the same photo (just turned), one clearly appears raised and one clearly appears lowered. This last image appears “correctly” to the eye with the seal raised and the text right.

Yes, this controversy is could be nothing more than an optical illusion. Obama’s raised seal is raised on the back side of the document (exactly as it is on other certificates) and reads correctly in concert with the registrar’s seal and the date stamp. In all fairness to Miss Tickly, this is a very compelling optical illusion, but an illusion nonetheless.

Update:

While the preceding proves the presence possibility of an optical illusion, I can anticipate an objection from someone who supports Miss Tickly, and that is to point to FactCheck photo # 1.

FactCheck.org birth certificate image (click to enlarge)

I can rotate this image any way I want and it still appears embossed. I am still studying this illusion. One thing that may contribute to it is the “open window” that appears in the background which might lead the eye to think that it is the cause of the glare on the paper, but I think it more likely the glare is caused by an overhead ceiling light. I don’t like loose ends, so I am asking for reader help in a new article: Call for birth certificates.

Here is the seal on the De Costa certificate printed in 2002 first shown normally, and then upside down.

De Costa Certificate from 2002 rotated

 

De Costa seal from 2002

Here’s a photo I found on the Internet that shows how powerful the illusion can be:

The footprints on the left are the same as those on the right

,

61 Responses to Is the seal bassackwards?

  1. avatar
    Obsolete May 29, 2011 at 3:25 pm #

    Hilarious!
    This is so simple an explanation that maybe the Birthers will even understand it.
    (although some may hurt themselves standing on their heads).

  2. avatar
    Foggy May 29, 2011 at 3:50 pm #

    Oh, that is awesome, Doc! What a cool illusion! On the “debossed” and “lowered” photos, even knowing it’s an illusion doesn’t matter. My lyin’ eyes see it one way, and one way only. Until they’re upside down. Then my lyin’ eyes see it the other way, and the other way only.

    That’s the most powerful optical illusion I may have ever seen.

    (Attention birthers: some modern graphics cards allow you to rotate your display on your monitor. If you try that, remember to move your mousie opposite of how you think.)

  3. avatar
    GeorgetownJD May 29, 2011 at 3:59 pm #

    What do you expect — birthers to look at something from every angle (literally and figuratively) before coming to a conclusion about it? Remember, Miss Tickly is the same person who broke the shocking news (gasp!!!!) that Dr. Fukino made a hasty departure from the DOH on December 6, 2010 shortly after responding to one of Miss T’s never ending email chains.

  4. avatar
    Reality Check May 29, 2011 at 4:00 pm #

    I think Obama is just screwing with the birthers’ brains. That is hard to do considering the fact that they have yet to show they even have any.

  5. avatar
    bjphysics May 29, 2011 at 4:18 pm #

    Thanks

    I figured it was an orientation/concavity thing; concave from this side is convex from that side.

    Got to go eat BBG ribs and game hens.

  6. avatar
    Reality Check May 29, 2011 at 4:23 pm #

    The mind will always assume light is from above. Check this image: http://codeidol.com/img/mind/0596007795/figs/ctxh_0208.gif;380140 Which ones are embossed and which ones are “debossed”. Answer: neither.

  7. avatar
    Critical Thinker May 29, 2011 at 4:24 pm #

    So does this mean that Obama is not, in fact, a Marxist usurper?

  8. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 29, 2011 at 4:27 pm #

    Critical Thinker: So does this mean that Obama is not, in fact, a Marxist usurper?

    I suppose it depends on your point of view.

  9. avatar
    Reality Check May 29, 2011 at 4:36 pm #

    Doc, I have to congratulate you. A few days ago when I read Miss Tickly’s article the thought crossed my mind that the seal was embossed upside down or that the light was at a funny angle and I didn’t pursue it further. I am sure an apology will be forthcoming from MissTickly for jumping to conclusions about our esteemed and legitimate President. .

  10. avatar
    GeorgetownJD May 29, 2011 at 5:49 pm #

    Reality Check:
    Doc, I have to congratulate you. A few days ago when I read Miss Tickly’s article the thought crossed my mind that the seal was embossed upside down or that the light was at a funny angle and I didn’t pursue it further. I am sure an apology will be forthcoming from MissTickly for jumping to conclusions about our esteemed and legitimate President. .

    Has anyone checked with TerriK to learn how she likes crow served up? Pie or stew?

  11. avatar
    Obsolete May 29, 2011 at 5:58 pm #

    MissTickly doesn’t allow comments on her blog. What is she afraid of?
    She repeatedly accuses Obots of being “intellectually dishonest”. I wonder what she sees when she looks in the mirror.

  12. avatar
    Joey May 29, 2011 at 6:49 pm #

    Obsolete:
    MissTickly doesn’t allow comments on her blog. What is she afraid of?
    She repeatedly accuses Obots of being “intellectually dishonest”. I wonder what she sees when she looks in the mirror.

    “The fairest of them all?”

  13. avatar
    BouquetofRoses May 29, 2011 at 6:55 pm #

    If Corsi & Farah are very adamant of the birther theory, what don’t they run for the 2012 election??? It would be hilarious to see them both going across the country campaigning their beliefs!!! I hope Palin/ Bachmann will be the republican ticket! Can you imagine–Obama/Biden, Palin/Bachman, & Corsi/Farah in the next election??? LOL!!!

  14. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 29, 2011 at 7:41 pm #

    As Foggy said, it is a very powerful optical illusion.

    I attacked this problem with an open mind and first tried to methodically and independently reproduce the Tickly observation, but without using her assumptions and images. I questioned every step including the determination which side the embossing was on. I studied negative images, illumination level adjustments and rotation in order to convince myself that Tickly understood the image correctly before I would move on to look at reasons that the image was the way it was.

    In the process of examination I discovered that the embossing could fool the observer depending on the light direction. What was surprising is that not only is there a top-bottom bias, but also a left-right bias.

    I see the counterclockwise rotation as lowered and the clockwise rotation as raised. I wonder if a left-handed person sees it that way.

    I’m rather proud that the old guy can still figure stuff out.

  15. avatar
    Majority Will May 29, 2011 at 7:43 pm #

    Obsolete: I wonder what she sees when she looks in the mirror.

    Wouldn’t she turn to stone?

    There may be smart birthers but none of them are very bright.

  16. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) May 29, 2011 at 8:01 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I see the counterclockwise rotation as lowered and the clockwise rotation as raised. I wonder if a left-handed person sees it that way.

    Doc I see it the same way you do.

  17. avatar
    Reality Check May 29, 2011 at 8:18 pm #

    If you want to have some fun follow Doc’s link over to MissTickly’s blog if you have an iPad and look at the photo with the rotation lock on. You can flip the seal around and watch it magically change from debossed to embossed. MissTickly, however, is debossed from any angle.

  18. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 29, 2011 at 8:34 pm #

    This article has been revised for improved readability and conciseness.

  19. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 29, 2011 at 9:01 pm #

    I probably should have withheld this article until WorldNetDaily published MissTickly’s findings.

  20. avatar
    gorefan May 29, 2011 at 9:01 pm #

    I’m not sure how this fits into this discussion.

    Back in December, Misstickly had a discussion with someone at wtpotus, that person named ps made the following statement on december 8th, @ 12:27 a.m.:

    My sister’s seal, like mine is stamped from the back so when you are looking from the front side with the vitals, image is raised and reversed. All three (3) are dated below the seal, but our registrars stamp is on the right hand side of of the back of the certificate to the right of the seal and date, rather than just below the date as their certificate shows. So I don’t know if there is a standard as to where the registrars stamped is supposed to be.”

    http://wtpotus.wordpress.com/2010/12/04/they-aint-seen-nothin-yet/

    PS also posts several images.

  21. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 29, 2011 at 9:12 pm #

    It looks like I was not the first to figure this out:

    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1507960/pg1

    Oops. They didn’t figure it out.

  22. avatar
    charo May 29, 2011 at 10:38 pm #

    I checked the link before you deleted it and tried to figure out why you said that someone else figured out what you did However, you basically claim “nothing to see here,” and the claim of the deleted link post is “everything to see here.”

  23. avatar
    TruthSeeker May 30, 2011 at 1:06 am #

    I believe this is the link Dr. Conspiracy provided:
    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1507960/pg1

  24. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 30, 2011 at 7:07 am #

    TruthSeeker: I believe this is the link Dr. Conspiracy provided:
    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1507960/pg1

    Yes, I deleted my comment, which was in error.

  25. avatar
    Tarrant May 30, 2011 at 8:09 am #

    Great work, Doc.

    Like many birther conspiracies, I don’t get the connection that MissTickly is trying to make. Ignoring the optical illusion Doc found, is her position that Obama’s “goons” went through the trouble of creating an otherwise good forgery but then to “punk” everybody created a debossed seal instead of a raised one? Why would someone do that? I keep wondering if she thinks it’s somehow “difficult” to get an embosser and they couldn’t do they used a debosser instead but that’s ridiculous since if one side of the paper is raised the other must by definition be lowered.

    Even were it the case that it had such a seal wouldn’t an equally likely explanation be that somebody put it in the machine upside down and nobody noticed? I know MissTickly is “just a birther” looking for any possible thing that she can join with her preconceived judgment but this seems really stretching it thin.

  26. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 30, 2011 at 8:13 am #

    I attempted to add a couple comments to Miss Tickly’s long string over at ObamaReleaseYourRecords yesterday, but so far they haven’t appeared. Miss Tickly doesn’t accept comments on her own blog and the Contact Link is blocked, so I really don’t have any way to communicate with her.

  27. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 30, 2011 at 8:19 am #

    Tarrant:
    Great work, Doc.

    Like many birther conspiracies, I don’t get the connection that MissTickly is trying to make. Ignoring the optical illusion Doc found, is her position that Obama’s “goons” went through the trouble of creating an otherwise good forgery but then to “punk” everybody created a debossed seal instead of a raised one? Why would someone do that? I keep wondering if she thinks it’s somehow “difficult” to get an embosser and they couldn’t do they used a debosser instead but that’s ridiculous since if one side of the paper is raised the other must by definition be lowered.

    Even were it the case that it had such a seal wouldn’t an equally likely explanation be that somebody put it in the machine upside down and nobody noticed? I know MissTickly is “just a birther” looking for any possible thing that she can join with her preconceived judgment but this seems really stretching it thin.

    I think that Miss Tickly’s thesis is that the Obama goons, by using an invalid form of seal somehow avoid the crime of fraud, or that they were inept in making the fake seal, or that some angel on the inside is quietly signaling to the world that the document is a fake.

    What MT thinks she saw could not be caused by applying a valid seal incorrectly. The seal itself would have to be defective.

    She was fooled by an optical illusion and is running around trying to get everybody’s attention to tell them that it is the smoking gun, the truth what will undo the Obama regime. In truth, she just made a mistake and in her ignorance is pushing her farther and farther out on a limb.

  28. avatar
    Jules May 30, 2011 at 9:00 am #

    Foggy:
    Oh, that is awesome, Doc! What a cool illusion! On the “debossed” and “lowered” photos, even knowing it’s an illusion doesn’t matter. My lyin’ eyes see it one way, and one way only. Until they’re upside down. Then my lyin’ eyes see it the other way, and the other way only.

    That’s the most powerful optical illusion I may have ever seen.

    (Attention birthers: some modern graphics cards allow you to rotate your display on your monitor. If you try that, remember to move your mousie opposite of how you think.)

    You and other readers are likely to have seen the “Thatcherised face” illusion. For anyone who has not: http://scienceblogs.com/mixingmemory/2006/09/cool_visual_illusions_the_marg.php

  29. avatar
    Majority Will May 30, 2011 at 9:40 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I attempted to add a couple comments to Miss Tickly’s long string over at ObamaReleaseYourRecords yesterday, but so far they haven’t appeared. Miss Tickly doesn’t accept comments on her own blog and the Contact Link is blocked, so I really don’t have any way to communicate with her.

    Your comment must have been considered either porn spam or threatening (or both)?

    From obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com:

    “I am forced to moderate the comments at this site due to the Obama defenders constant porn spam and threatening comments.”

    And this quote is posted directly above the censorship warning:

    “As long as I am an American citizen and American blood runs in these veins I shall hold myself at liberty to speak, to write, and to publish whatever I please on any subject.” – Elijah Parish Lovejoy(1802-1837)

    The hypocrisy meter didn’t stand a chance.

  30. avatar
    Jules May 30, 2011 at 9:48 am #

    I have found that you get the same effect with the Home Office embossed seal on my old UK residence permit:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/8504333@N02/5775730813/in/photostream
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/8504333@N02/5775730607/in/photostream

    The embossed seal is at the bottom of the first image and at the top of the second. It should not be confused with the printed coat of arms in approximately the same place.

  31. avatar
    The Magic M May 30, 2011 at 11:42 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: is her position that Obama’s “goons” went through the trouble of creating an otherwise good forgery but then to “punk” everybody created a debossed seal instead of a raised one?

    I think there is an ever-growing list of birther ideas why such an allegedly “bad forgery” would exist, and you didn’t catch them all:

    1. Obama or his wife hastily made the forgery themselves and they are incompetent at anything they do.

    2. Obama deliberately released a bad forgery as an equivalent of flipping his critics off.

    3. The person who created the forgery wanted to drop hints that it is a forgery because he actually hates Obama.

    4. Whoever made or ordered the forgery wanted to leave enough wiggle room to not be thrown in jail once the birthers take over control of the country (similar to officials not using certain “magic words” that would make them accountable).

    5. The forgery was made by experts, however the birthers are even more clever than the best document-forging experts and saw through it right away.

    6. The forgery was an attempt to be as good as possible, but that nasty political correctness stopped them from saying “Race: Negro”, so they chose PC over quality.

    7. The forgery was deliberately bad to draw attention to the forging itself and away from “more damning evidence”, such as the father not being American or similar.

    8. The forgery was deliberately bad to allow Obama to release a better one in 2012 (which he allegedly planned to do until Trump and/or Corsi forced his hand).

    9. Maybe others, I forget…

    Still I think I have yet to see the most deluded, funniest and most unrealistic “explanation” the birfers can come up with. Those 8 are pretty deluded but not yet of the “‘true and correct copy or abstract’ means it’s just an abstract and not real” flavour.

  32. avatar
    gorefan May 30, 2011 at 11:43 am #

    “I don’t like loose ends.”

    From the wtpotus website:

    PS on Decenber 7, 2010 @ 7:36 p.m.

    “I took a closer look at the scan and it does APPEAR raised. However when you look at it naturally, it appears recessed. When you run your fingers accross the FRONT of the certificate where all my vitals are as though you were reading Braille…it feels raised. And when you turn it over and feel the seal from it’s correct orientation ..it feels recessed. Don’t know what to make of this?”

    And then later on December 8th @ 12:27 a.m.

    ““My sister’s seal, like mine is stamped from the back so when you are looking from the front side with the vitals, image is raised and reversed.”

    http://wtpotus.wordpress.com/2010/12/04/they-aint-seen-nothin-yet/

    It sounds like she is describing a debossed seal on a 1993 Hawaiian Birth Certificate.

  33. avatar
    BuckeyeTexan May 30, 2011 at 1:31 pm #

    Hello All,

    This explanation makes perfect sense, but I think we need to put it to bed if we can with confirmation. So I’m going to look into it a little bit.

    It doesn’t make sense to me that FactCheck would photograph the lowered/impressed side of the stamp as proof that the seal is raised. Does it to you? Since their goal was proving that the document had a raised seal, wouldn’t you expect them to photograph the raised side of the seal? Is it possible, in your opinion, that the FactCheck photograph labeled as “raised seal” is actually the back of the document? (That would indicate that the seal is raised on the back of the paper.) The security paper looks pretty thick to me, so I’m guessing it’s not the back side. Also, I don’t see any bleed through on the back of Danae’s photographs.

    I’ve asked Danae to let me know which side of the seal on her COLB is raised. She initially answered that it’s raised on the front and lowered on the back, which would be exactly as MT suggests Obama’s is. That would indicate to me that the HDoH uses both embossed and debossed seals, which is not what their regs stipulate. (I’m confident that Danae’s COLB is authentic.) I’ve asked Danae three follow-up questions to clarify the exact details. She may have meant that the front of the seal was raised on the back of the paper rather than that the back of the seal was raised on the front side of the paper. I’m still waiting for answer.

    FRegards,
    Tex

  34. avatar
    Expelliarmus May 30, 2011 at 2:06 pm #

    These Factcheck images is taken from the back (non printed) side of the 2007 COLB:
    http://factcheck.org/Images/image/birth_certificate_images/birth_certificate_7.jpg
    http://factcheck.org/Images/image/birth_certificate_images/birth_certificate_8.jpg

    These images are from the front (printed) side of the same, 2007 COLB:

    http://factcheck.org/Images/image/birth_certificate_images/birth_certificate_1.jpg
    http://factcheck.org/Images/image/birth_certificate_images/birth_certificate_2.jpg
    http://factcheck.org/Images/image/birth_certificate_images/birth_certificate_5.jpg
    http://factcheck.org/Images/image/birth_certificate_images/birth_certificate_6.jpg

    From the images it appears that the raised side of the embossing stamp is on the front, whereas the printed stamp is on the back — but even with a photograph of the paper being held at an angle, an optical illusion is possible. There is no getting around the fact that you are looking at a 2-dimensional photograph on a flat screen when you view this. It is impossible for a 2 dimensional photo to preserve a 3 dimensional image (at least not unless a holographic photo is made) — everything that appears 3 dimensional on a photograph is always a result of the way we naturally interpret shadows and effects of perspective.

    I’d note that the position of the print stamp (with date and Onaka signature) tells us nothing about the embossed stamp.

    More important — the embosser is always going to have the same side raised in terms of the direction of print on the actual embossed seal, but there is no particular reason to assume that the clerks at the Department of Health have any particular protocol about which way they stick the piece of paper in to be embossed. It is a HUGE mistake to think that every certified document is going to have stamp and seal in the same place.

    Also, the birthers seem to think that the phrase “raised seal” means that an embossed rather than debossed seal is required. That is nonsense. The purpose of the seal is to prevent a photocopy from being passed off as the certified document. A good quality photocopy might be indistinguishable from the original — but you can’t photocopy the bumps made by the embosser. There will always be a “raised” seal because if the seal is “debossed” on one side of the paper, it will necessarily be embossed on the other.

  35. avatar
    gorefan May 30, 2011 at 2:17 pm #

    Expelliarmus: the phrase “raised seal” means that an embossed rather than debossed seal is required.

    IIRC, the Hawaiian regs actually use the word “embossed”. If you read the wtpotus.com comments, the poster PS appears to be describing a debossed seal.

  36. avatar
    Jamese777 May 30, 2011 at 3:16 pm #

    BuckeyeTexan: Hello All,This explanation makes perfect sense, but I think we need to put it to bed if we can with confirmation. So I’m going to look into it a little bit.It doesn’t make sense to me that FactCheck would photograph the lowered/impressed side of the stamp as proof that the seal is raised. Does it to you? Since their goal was proving that the document had a raised seal, wouldn’t you expect them to photograph the raised side of the seal? Is it possible, in your opinion, that the FactCheck photograph labeled as “raised seal” is actually the back of the document? (That would indicate that the seal is raised on the back of the paper.) The security paper looks pretty thick to me, so I’m guessing it’s not the back side. Also, I don’t see any bleed through on the back of Danae’s photographs.I’ve asked Danae to let me know which side of the seal on her COLB is raised. She initially answered that it’s raised on the front and lowered on the back, which would be exactly as MT suggests Obama’s is. That would indicate to me that the HDoH uses both embossed and debossed seals, which is not what their regs stipulate. (I’m confident that Danae’s COLB is authentic.) I’ve asked Danae three follow-up questions to clarify the exact details. She may have meant that the front of the seal was raised on the back of the paper rather than that the back of the seal was raised on the front side of the paper. I’m still waiting for answer. FRegards,Tex

    Tex! How ya doin’ buddy? Please send my best regards to all my friends and haters over at freerepublic.com. Since I’ve been banned as a “troll” for exposing birther lies Ive been mainly posting here but I still enjoy reading the birther sub-culture over there.
    In my humble opinion, freerepubic is the best site for finding somewhat intelligent and logical posts from birthers.
    Buckeye Texan continues to fight the good fight against the most unintelligent and illogical of the birthers.

  37. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 30, 2011 at 4:19 pm #

    Expelliarmus: I’d note that the position of the print stamp (with date and Onaka signature) tells us nothing about the embossed stamp.

    It physically says nothing, but logically it does. The stamp, the date, and the seal are the three parts of the certification. They should logically be together, and they should read in the same direction (not one the mirror image of the other).

    I think that all of the FactCheck images are completely ambiguous except #1. #1 looks like the embossed side is the front, but I couldn’t convince myself. Almost certainly the glare on the left side of the form leads the viewer to believe that the primary light source illuminating the seal is from the left and that the seal is embossed. However, I found parts of the seal inconsistent with that view.

  38. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 30, 2011 at 4:21 pm #

    BuckeyeTexan: Since their goal was proving that the document had a raised seal, wouldn’t you expect them to photograph the raised side of the seal?

    Actually, I think they did photograph the seal from the raised side. That’s the whole point of my article.

    Given that the Hawaii Department of Health says they provided the White House Obama Campaign documents, the only option we have is that the seal is whatever the Department of Health seal is, and the birther objection is either a real impressed seal or an optical illusion of an impressed seal.

  39. avatar
    BuckeyeTexan May 30, 2011 at 5:21 pm #

    Howdy y’all,

    FRegards, jamese777. Thanks for the comments. I will send your regards to the Sanity Squad. ;p

    Well, it’s resolved for me. Danae has answered my questions. Her document is sealed in exactly the same manner as Obama’s: front side of document is raised, back side is impressed.

    MT is correct about how the seal on Obama’s document is actually a debossed seal. Since I am confident that Danae’s BC is authentic, that tells me the HDOH understands “embossed” to mean raised on one side or the other and not necessarily raised on the front of the seal itself.

    FRegards,
    Tex

  40. avatar
    Wayne May 30, 2011 at 10:41 pm #

    With regard to your comments about FactCheck photo #1, on its “Born in the USA” page (http://factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa) FactCheck has captioned this picture “The raised seal.”

    Normal interpretation of this caption would mean that the photo shows a raised area above the surface of the paper.

    If you are saying that the area in question on photo #1 is in actuality depressed into the paper, then must you not also conclude that FactCheck has captioned this photo incorrectly?

  41. avatar
    Obsolete May 30, 2011 at 11:05 pm #

    Wayne-
    Just turn your computer monitor upside down.

  42. avatar
    Expelliarmus May 30, 2011 at 11:42 pm #

    gorefan: IIRC, the Hawaiian regs actually use the word “embossed”. If you read the wtpotus.com comments, the poster PS appears to be describing a debossed seal.

    That makes about as much sense as flipping a coin and arguing that it can’t be genuine if it comes up tails.

    “embossed” and “debossed” are the SAME thing. If you take a piece of paper and stick it into an embosser, one side of the paper will be “embosssed” and the flip side will be “debossed”. That’s just because of the nature of paper and the laws of physics.

  43. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 30, 2011 at 11:54 pm #

    Wayne: If you are saying that the area in question on photo #1 is in actuality depressed into the paper, then must you not also conclude that FactCheck has captioned this photo incorrectly?

    I would not say that it is labeled incorrectly. If the object being photographed is a “raised seal” then it correctly labeled that no matter at what angle it is photographed, even from the back.

  44. avatar
    Expelliarmus May 31, 2011 at 12:05 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The stamp, the date, and the seal are the three parts of the certification. They should logically be together, and they should read in the same direction (not one the mirror image of the other).

    I think that all of the FactCheck images are completely ambiguous except #1. #1 looks like the embossed side is the front, but I couldn’t convince myself.

    When the person is doing the certifying, they have 3 steps, which can be done in no particular order. They have to use a date stamp. They have to use a stamp that has the “true and correct” language along with Alvin Onaka’s signture. And they have to stick the piece of paper into the embosser.

    You are assuming that the person doing that task would take care to make sure that the paper was facing right side up in relation to whichever side of the embosser produces a raised impression and the side of the paper with the stamped date and signature. I’m assuming that it is very possible that the person just sticks the paper into the embosser any which way, then pulls it out and adds the date & signature stamp without paying much attention to which way the seal is facing.

    I’ve had to obtain plenty of certified copies over my career, and maybe it is a product of having to deal with very busy clerks with a high volume of work, but I’m pretty much accustomed to seeing date stamps & embossed seals all over the place,, in fairly random positions. In fact, in many offices it is the custom of the staff to leave the date stamp on the counter & let the requester make their own stamp of the date impression, and then hand the paper over to the clerk for purposes of addition of the embossing stamp. This is fairly common where the person wants multiple copies of the same document, but only needs one copy to be certified.

    You know, sometimes when I mail a letter, I stick the envelope in the printer the wrong way and the address is typed upside down. I don’t throw away the envelope when that happens, I just go ahead and mail my letter in an envelope with the flap on the bottom in relation to where the stamp goes. That happens to me fairly frequently because I never seem to be able to remember which way to feed the envelopes into the printer, but usually I do get the envelopes printed right side around. If you were to collect envelopes received from me and compare them, the fact that a letter arrives in an envelope with the flap sealed on the bottom doesn’t mean that it’s a fake letter or that it didn’t come from me, it just means that I fed the envelope into the printer wrong that day.

    I do think that the factcheck document looks like the raised part of the stamp is on the front side (though I agree that you can’t tell for sure from a picture) — and it is clear that the data and signature stamp are on the back. So that would be an example, perhaps, of the person sticking the COLB into the embosser face up and then flipping the document over to stamp it. Or maybe the way that particular embosser works is that the raised part comes out on the bottom of whatever paper you stick in, so that sticking the document in face down — the same way it was facing when the date & signature stamp was done — would result in the raised part showing on the front of the document.

  45. avatar
    Expelliarmus May 31, 2011 at 12:09 am #

    BuckeyeTexan: Since I am confident that Danae’s BC is authentic, that tells me the HDOH understands “embossed” to mean raised on one side or the other and not necessarily raised on the front of the seal itself.

    My point exactly.

  46. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 31, 2011 at 12:27 am #

    Expelliarmus: You are assuming that the person doing that task would take care to make sure that the paper was facing right side up in relation to whichever side of the embosser produces a raised impression and the side of the paper with the stamped date and signature. I’m assuming that it is very possible that the person just sticks the paper into the embosser any which way, then pulls it out and adds the date & signature stamp without paying much attention to which way the seal is facing.

    For this reason, I am attempting to collect more data.

    The only question of any real importance is: Is Obama’s certificate sealed with same device that sealed other certificates? Based on what Hawaii has said, the answer to that is certainly “yes” but, you know, this is a blog about Obama conspiracy theories.

  47. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 31, 2011 at 12:34 am #

    BuckeyeTexan: I’ve asked Danae to let me know which side of the seal on her COLB is raised.

    When you get your info, add it to this article if you would be so kind:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/05/call-for-birth-certificates/

  48. avatar
    charo May 31, 2011 at 5:11 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: When you get your info, add it to this article if you would be so kind:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/05/call-for-birth-certificates/

    Did you see his follow up comment at 5:21 p.m.?

  49. avatar
    charo May 31, 2011 at 5:30 am #

    I was wondering about the significance of Hawaii will even continuing using a seal with the language true copy rather than just abstract given that its own policy is to only generate short forms. I was wondering what language other states use because short forms are the norm. I found this in the process; I don’t know if it has been addressed on another thread:

    http://www.cityoforange.org/depts/cityclerk/passport.asp

    SPECIAL NOTICE – CALIFORNIA BIRTH ABSTRACTS ARE NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE – PASSPORT APPLICANTS BORN IN CALIFORIA MUST SUBMIT LONG FORM PHOTOREPRODUCTION CERTIFIED COPIES OF BIRTH RECORDS

  50. avatar
    gorefan May 31, 2011 at 10:22 am #

    Expelliarmus: “embossed” and “debossed” are the SAME thing.

    deboss: to indent (a figure or design) into a surface.

    emboss: 1. to raise or represent (surface designs) in relief.

    http://dictionary.infoplease.com/deboss#ixzz1NwUjoS4L

    MissTickly is arguing that whether the letter is normal or reversed determines if something is embossed or debossed. So when you look at the face (side with the vital statistics listed) of President’s COLB or PS’s or Danae’s, the lettering in the seal is backwards (HTLAEH FO TNEMTRAPED, IIAWAH FO ETATS) and raised. When you turn it over (side with registrar’s stamp), the lettering is normal (DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, STATE OF HAWAII) and indented into the paper.

    By definition, this would be a debossed seal.

    It’s not the President’s fault, or Danae’s fault or anybodies fault, that’s just the way Hawaii does it. Does that violate Hawaii Regulations? maybe. But it doesn’t delegitmize the COLBs. They are still official records from the State of Hawaii.

    Which brings up a question, on the current LFBC where the registrar stamp is on the same side as the vital statistics, is the seal raised with the lettering normal (embossed)?

  51. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 31, 2011 at 12:14 pm #

    gorefan: MissTickly is arguing that whether the letter is normal or reversed determines if something is embossed or debossed.

    Miss Tickly’s writing, both here and on other subjects, exhibits what I would describe as a “hyper literalism,” which is one of the thinking errors that characterize cranks and conspiracy theorists.

  52. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 31, 2011 at 12:24 pm #

    charo: I don’t know if it has been addressed on another thread:

    The issue with California and Texas birth certificates was discussed some time ago. Additional information is required for these two states because of certain incidents of fraud by midwives.

  53. avatar
    BuckeyeTexan May 31, 2011 at 5:17 pm #

    Expelliarmus: “embossed” and “debossed” are the SAME thing. If you take a piece of paper and stick it into an embosser, one side of the paper will be “embosssed” and the flip side will be “debossed”. That’s just because of the nature of paper and the laws of physics.

    Actually, the two are not the same. They are mirror opposites of each other.

    With an embossed seal, the text reads properly from left to right on the raised, front side of the seal. The text is backwards (a mirror opposite) on the depressed, back side of the seal. For example, “BuckeyeTexan” would be raised. “naxeTeyekcuB” would be depressed.

    With a debossed seal, the text reads properly from left to right on the depressed, front side of the seal. The text is backwards (a mirror opposite) on the raised, back side of the seal. For example, “BuckeyeTexan” would be depressed. “naxeTeyekcuB” would be raised.

  54. avatar
    BuckeyeTexan May 31, 2011 at 5:26 pm #

    Expelliarmus: ” ‘embossed’ and ‘debossed’ are the SAME thing. If you take a piece of paper and stick it into an embosser, one side of the paper will be ‘embosssed’ and the flip side will be ‘debossed’. That’s just because of the nature of paper and the laws of physics.”

    Actually, the two are not the same. They are mirror opposites of each other. In the paper industry (and in a court of law,) the two terms have distinct meanings.

    With an embossed seal, the text reads properly from left to right on the raised, front side of the seal. The text is backwards (a mirror opposite) on the depressed, back side of the seal. For example, “BuckeyeTexan” would be raised. “naxeTeyekcuB” would be depressed.

    With a debossed seal, the text reads properly from left to right on the depressed, front side of the seal. The text is backwards (a mirror opposite) on the raised, back side of the seal. For example, “BuckeyeTexan” would be depressed. “naxeTeyekcuB” would be raised.

  55. avatar
    BuckeyeTexan June 1, 2011 at 2:41 pm #

    Doc,

    Will you please delete the first one of my duplicate comments above. Also what information, specifically, do you want me to add to that thread? The questions I asked Danae and her answers? Just a summary of my conversation with her?

    FRegards,
    Tex

  56. avatar
    gorefan June 1, 2011 at 3:00 pm #

    Hi BuckeyeTexan,

    I was confused by one thing – are you saying that Danae’s COLB’s seal is raised on the side where the vital statistics are written and that the lettering is backwards? And on the side where Dr. Onaka’s signature stamp is, the seal is indented and the lettering is normal?

  57. avatar
    BuckeyeTexan June 1, 2011 at 3:27 pm #

    Howdy Gorefan,

    Yes. That’s it exactly. Danae’s COLB has a debossed seal, as does Obama’s COLB.

    Tex

  58. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 1, 2011 at 3:36 pm #

    BuckeyeTexan: The questions I asked Danae and her answers? Just a summary of my conversation with her?

    I think direct quotes are best.

  59. avatar
    BuckeyeTexan June 1, 2011 at 3:52 pm #

    Doc,

    I added the requested information to the article you referenced. I also included links to 600 DPI scans and photographs of her documents.

    FRegards,
    Tex

  60. avatar
    gorefan June 1, 2011 at 4:00 pm #

    Tex,

    I suspect that originally, Hawaii used only an embossed seal, because the signatures of the Director of Health and the Registrar General were also on the front along with the vital statistics (like the Nordyke’s). Then when they started putting the signatures of the registrar on the back of the document, they started using the debossing stamp. As Dr. C. said above, they would want the lettering to read normally on the side with the registrar’s signature. And they would probably want a raised seal on the side where the vitals are listed.

  61. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 1, 2011 at 4:49 pm #

    The article has been updated.