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The occasional open thread: Birther blanket bingo

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209 Responses to The occasional open thread: Birther blanket bingo

  1. avatar
    Sean December 7, 2011 at 12:16 am #

    Trump recently said in a FOX interview that “they can’t even find the hospital records” of Obama’s Mother.

    Goal posts officially moved.

  2. avatar
    Steve December 7, 2011 at 12:25 am #

    Sean:
    Trump recently said in a FOX interview that “they can’t even find the hospital records” of Obama’s Mother.

    Goal posts officially moved.

    Not for nothing, but don’t hospitals destroy their records after a certain amount of time?

  3. avatar
    misha December 7, 2011 at 1:37 am #

    Steve: don’t hospitals destroy their records after a certain amount of time?

    After 7 years. If the patient is a minor, then 7 years after their 18th birthday.

  4. avatar
    gorefan December 7, 2011 at 1:40 am #

    Steve: Not for nothing, but don’t hospitals destroy their records after a certain amount of time?

    Maybe,

    Hawaiian Revised Statutes:

    §622-58 Retention of medical records. (a) Medical records may be computerized or minified by the use of microfilm or any other similar photographic process; provided that the method used creates an unalterable record. The health care provider shall retain medical records in the original or reproduced form for a minimum of seven years after the last data entry except in the case of minors whose records shall be retained during the period of minority plus seven years after the minor reaches the age of majority.

    Depending on Kapiolani policy, there may be microfilm copies. But my guess is they don’t have anything, except maybe some kind of birth registry.

  5. avatar
    Lupin December 7, 2011 at 3:19 am #

    What’s wrong with you people?

    http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-headlines/tennessee-fire-department-watches-house-burn-again

  6. avatar
    The Magic M December 7, 2011 at 4:02 am #

    Sean: Goal posts officially moved.

    Of course – the “ask for something I know doesn’t exist” method (aka modified straw man) is also from Propaganda 101 (or maybe 102).
    It’s like ID people asking “show us something that’s half human and half ape” or 9/11 truthers saying “show us the flight recorders”.
    It’s the same straw man as “show us proof Obama legally changed his name back from Soetoro”.

  7. avatar
    Todd Landrum December 7, 2011 at 5:34 am #

    Congratulations Dr. Mazanec!

    Rollcall.com reports:

    The Congressional Research Service has a new director.

    Mary Mazanec, who has been serving in the post in an acting capacity since April, will become the permanent director effective immediately.

    Sometimes, selling out is a good career move.

  8. avatar
    Keith December 7, 2011 at 7:37 am #

    Lupin:
    What’s wrong with you people?

    http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-headlines/tennessee-fire-department-watches-house-burn-again

    Yes. Well might you ask.

    I perceive an extremely poisonous undercurrent at the moment. This whole ‘rescue the Constitution’ bullcrap is code for resetting the political environment of the country to the 1850’s.

    Two small history lessons for the less American of our readers:

    The Know-Nothings

    The Know Nothing was a movement by the nativist American political faction of the 1840s and 1850s. It was empowered by popular fears that the country was being overwhelmed by German and Irish Catholic immigrants, who were often regarded as hostile to Anglo-Saxon Protestant values and controlled by the Pope in Rome. Mainly active from 1854 to 1856, it strove to curb immigration and naturalization, though its efforts met with little success. Membership was limited to Protestant males of British lineage over the age of 21. There were few prominent leaders, and the largely middle-class and entirely Protestant membership fragmented over the issue of slavery.

    Sound like anybody you’ve heard of the last few years might have taken some inspiration from them?

    More specific to the motivation for your question:

    History of firefighting in the US

    …However the United States did not have government-run fire departments until around the time of the American Civil War. Prior to this time, private fire brigades compete with one another to be the first to respond to a fire because insurance companies paid brigades to save buildings…

    …There were no full-time paid firefighters in America until 1850. Even after the formation of paid fire companies in the United States, there were disagreements and often fights over territory. New York City companies were famous for sending runners out to fires with a large barrel to cover the hydrant closest to the fire in advance of the engines.[citation needed] Often fights would break out between the runners and even the responding fire companies for the right to fight the fire and receive the insurance money that would be paid to the company that fought it.[citation needed] Interestingly, during the 19th century and early 20th century volunteer fire companies served not only as fire protection but as political machines. The most famous volunteer firefighter politician is Boss Tweed, head of the notorious Tammany Hall political machine, who got his start in politics as a member of the Americus Engine Company Number 6 (“The Big Six”) in New York City.

    Everything after the Civil War is tainted by Communism. Is it a coincidence that Marx published A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy in 1859? The Libertarians are out to destroy any vestige of public education and the Tea-Partiers are out to bankrupt every governmental body at the federal, state, and especially the local level.

    This episode demonstrates that they are winning. This scorch the earth campaign has taken decades to bear fruit, and I fear it is going to take a century to recover.

  9. avatar
    Majority Will December 7, 2011 at 7:46 am #

    Sean:
    Trump recently said in a FOX interview that “they can’t even find the hospital records” of Obama’s Mother.

    Goal posts officially moved.

    Then Dumbass Donald must not respect the HIPAA law covering the mandatory medical privacy of his thousands of employees.

    Class action lawsuit?

  10. avatar
    Mr. Gumball December 7, 2011 at 8:29 am #

    Keith: The Libertarians are out to destroy any vestige of public education and the Tea-Partiers are out to bankrupt every governmental body at the federal, state, and especially the local level.

    So, new and expanded tax revenues are the answer to exponential debt burden. Is that correct?

  11. avatar
    Scientist December 7, 2011 at 9:06 am #

    Mr. Gumball: So, new and expanded tax revenues are the answer to exponential debt burden. Is that correct?

    Given that federal revenues as a % of GDP are the lowest since 1950, part of the answer has to include getting revenues back to their normal range of 18-20% from the 15% they are today.

    http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=205

  12. avatar
    The Magic M December 7, 2011 at 9:14 am #

    I have a new scientific theory to propose:

    The value of entertainment of a birther site follows a Gaussian bell curve (with time on the x-axis and entertainment value on the y-axis).

    In the beginning, the site is boring because it mostly repeats known birther talking points and offers little originality.
    After some time, the site will have attracted enough crazies to spawn some new (crazy) theories, or at least a critical mass of people that will increase the silliness of the discussions (such as getting birther memes totally wrong, leading to gems such as “to be an NBC, you need two NBC parents” or “Obama’s BC has the father’s race as ‘African-American'”).
    After some more time, however, the site takes a dive in one of these directions, neither of them being very entertaining anymore:

    1. Endless repetition with no novelty value (example: Post and Email, endless whiney letters)

    2. Hitting rock bottom in the rabbit hole, becoming a melting pot of the silliest possible conspiracy theories (example: Dr Kate, Martha Trowbridge)

    3. Breakout of open hatred, mostly racist in nature (example: EU Times)

    [Note that these characteristics are not mutually exclusive.]

    For me, everything except WND and Orly’s site have reached the bottom of the other side of the bell curve, with WND already quite a bit down the slope and Orly close behind.

  13. avatar
    G December 7, 2011 at 11:08 am #

    It springs from the selfish idiot mentality that doesn’t believe in community responsibility or taxes… such a thought process is the antithisis of society and civilization.

    Lupin: What’s wrong with you people?http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-headlines/tennessee-fire-department-watches-house-burn-again

  14. avatar
    Mr. Gumball December 7, 2011 at 11:17 am #

    Scientist: Given that federal revenues as a % of GDP are the lowest since 1950, part of the answer has to include getting revenues back to their normal range of 18-20% from the 15% they are today.

    http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=205

    So, we need to increase revenue by taxing those who have increased domestic production to levels not seen since 1950.

    Wouldn’t that encourage CommieObomi to borrow more from international bankers?

  15. avatar
    Majority Will December 7, 2011 at 11:23 am #

    Mr. Gumball: Wouldn’t that encourage CommieObomi to borrow more from international bankers?

    Why would rational people take an obvious troll like you seriously?

  16. avatar
    Scientist December 7, 2011 at 11:43 am #

    Mr. Gumball: So, we need to increase revenue by taxing those who have increased domestic production to levels not seen since 1950

    What the F are you talking about? Who has increased “domestic production”? Are you blind?

  17. avatar
    Majority Will December 7, 2011 at 11:52 am #

    “Will bungled sex abuse investigations matter to the Joe Arpaio faithful?”

    (excerpt) “On Monday, Sheriff Joe Arpaio held a press conference to offer up what apparently passes for an apology in Joeland.

    ‘If there were any victims,” he said, “I apologize to those victims.’

    If there were any victims?”

    (source: http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/LaurieRoberts/150148)

  18. avatar
    G December 7, 2011 at 11:58 am #

    Where do you come up with this utter nonsense? Try pulling your head out of your @ss and live in the real world. Your arguments are quite untethered from reality.

    Mr. Gumball: So, we need to increase revenue by taxing those who have increased domestic production to levels not seen since 1950.

  19. avatar
    G December 7, 2011 at 12:00 pm #

    Wow…just wow… what a contemptable statement of sheer irresponsibility…

    Majority Will: If there were any victims?”

  20. avatar
    Observer December 7, 2011 at 12:10 pm #

    Todd wrote:”Sometimes, selling out is a good career move.”

    What is that all about?

  21. avatar
    Majority Will December 7, 2011 at 12:16 pm #

    Growth of Family Income from 1947 to 2007:

    http://www.connectthedotsusa.com/images/FavSlides/JobsWages/WeGrewApart.jpg

    Connect the Dots:

    http://www.connectthedotsusa.com/CTDFavSlides.html

  22. avatar
    Mr. Gumball December 7, 2011 at 12:25 pm #

    Scientist: What the F are you talking about?Who has increased “domestic production”?Are you blind?

    You’re original comment was we needed to increase taxes because Federal revenue as a percentage of production has decreased over the last 60 years.

    Federal Revenue has increased significantly over the last 60 years. In order for your statement to be correct, productivity would have to increase significantly more for tax as a percentage of domestic production to decrease.

    Understand? Or are you just spouting Dem talking points without thinking it through?

  23. avatar
    Lupin December 7, 2011 at 12:27 pm #

    G: It springs from the selfish idiot mentality that doesn’t believe in community responsibility or taxes… such a thought process is the antithesis of society and civilization.

    You know, this is a FAIL on so many levels I’m just gobsmacked astounded.

    1) I could understand NOT responding to the 911 call at all. (e.g.: “sorry, sir, you’re outside our area of intervention”)

    2) I could understand showing up, putting out the fire, THEN billing the victims triple the initial fee of $75 afterward (for example) or whatever sum is warranted.

    3) Fires don’t respect property lines; coming out to just WATCH the fire is utterly moronic; if I was the next door neighbor and I had paid the $75 I’d still be mad as hell that that fire next door is NOT being put out by the firemen, and frankly I’d be happy to pay an extra $75 to have it put out AT ONCE.

    4) All of the above deals only with property; what is there were human beings actually in danger?

    I’m sorry, this goes beyond selfishness and avarice; it is stupidity on such a grand scale that it threatens your society.

  24. avatar
    Lupin December 7, 2011 at 12:29 pm #

    Majority Will: If there were any victims,” he said, “I apologize to those victims.’

    Sociopaths. All.

    At least Hannibal Lecter was (a) well read and educated, and (b) fictional.

  25. avatar
    Lupin December 7, 2011 at 12:31 pm #

    Mr. Gumball: to borrow more from international bankers?

    c’mon, say it in plain English: you mean JEWS!!!!!!!

    Hey, Misha, antisemite on Aisle 13!

  26. avatar
    Majority Will December 7, 2011 at 12:35 pm #

    “Or are you just spouting Dem talking points without thinking it through?”

    And yet another batch of fresh irony meters explode in a fiery, embarrassing mess.

  27. avatar
    Majority Will December 7, 2011 at 12:39 pm #

    Lupin: c’mon, say it in plain English: you mean JEWS!!!!!!!

    Hey, Misha, antisemite on Aisle 13!

    And the NWO needs a more proactive secret police force if comments like the current troll’s are getting through.

  28. avatar
    Scientist December 7, 2011 at 12:44 pm #

    Mr. Gumball: Understand?

    Your original comment was “those who have increased domestic production to levels not seen since 1950.” That is a meaningless statement, since GDP is nowhere near levels of 1950, not now or anytime recently, because GDP increases just about every year and is now 50x what it was in 1950. As for who caused GDP to increase since 1950-EVERYONE-workers, consumers, investors, engineers, scientists, immigrants, people having babies, all of them caused GDP to increase.

    The simple fact is that taxes today are at a very low level compared to any other time in the past 60 years. They are 15% of GDP and they are historically around 18-19%. That means that they can be increased without any reason to think that would harm the economy,

    Try to clear the cobwebs out of your head.

  29. avatar
    jayhg December 7, 2011 at 1:24 pm #

    Sean: Trump recently said in a FOX interview that “they can’t even find the hospital records” of Obama’s Mother.Goal posts officially moved.

    That’s a birther talking point. Hospitals won’t talk about/admit/deny or say anything about anyone’s records other than mine. I dare any doctor/hospital or anything like that to discuss my personal records with ANYONE.

    Trump or any of those dumb ass birthers don’t know what records any hospital has about President Obama’s mother or anyone else. In birther world, if you go to or call the hospital where the president was born and ask and are rebuffed, VIOLA……..THEY DON’T HAVE RECORDS cause if they did have records, they’d say “I have them, but I can’t give them to you.”

    Of course this is ludicrous, but it’s butterdezillion’s logic cause she asserts that if they reject your request outright, this must mean that they are admitting that there are no records.

    So Trump just jumped on the talking point and now he’s doubling down since he can’t admit that he bought the ego stroking of a bunch of loons. Trump actually thought that these were MANY folks calling him instead of the same 10 loons calling him hundreds of time and sending tons of e-mails. He bought it, but too late realized it and was embarassed, but his ego will never allow him to say he was wrong. That’s why he just keeps going with this. You notice that each time Rove or someone calls him silly, a clown or carnival barker, he’s goes ballistic. Trump has the thinnest skin of any bully I’ve ever seen.

  30. avatar
    jayhg December 7, 2011 at 1:38 pm #

    My post was a little unclear at the beginning. I meant say hospitals won’t anything TO ME about anyone’s records but my own…….

  31. avatar
    misha December 7, 2011 at 1:49 pm #

    Mr. Gumball: Wouldn’t that encourage CommieObomi to borrow more from international bankers?

    Dear Mr. Shweddy balls Gumball:

    I am writing from the International Jewish Conspiracy™, with subterranean headquarters in New York and Jerusalem. We control the world’s monetary supply, as explained by Reverend John Hagee:

    Hagee blamed American economic problems on the fact that the Federal Reserve System is controlled by “a group of Class A stockholders, including the Rothschilds.” In the same series, Hagee further asserted that the Rothschilds, who are Jewish, were part of a wide-ranging conspiracy of “international power brokers based in Europe.”

    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagee and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeaybfpgGLo

    We are monitoring your internet connection. As proof of our influence, an Israeli is now Chicago mayor. Watch your back.

    Славься, Отечество наше свобо´ное,
    ”ружбы наро´ов на´‘жный оплот!
    Партия Ленина — сила наро´ная,
    Нас к торжеству коммунизма ве´‘т!

    Long live Lenin!

  32. avatar
    misha December 7, 2011 at 2:25 pm #

    Mr. Gumball: Wouldn’t that encourage CommieObomi to borrow more from international bankers?

    I understand why you are so concerned about Obama. What I cannot understand is your complete lack of interest about a rape and murder that Glenn Beck refuses to deny. It would be so simple for Glenn Beck to release his criminal record abstract, and prove it is stamped “subject has clear record to date.”

    For the truth about Glenn Beck:
    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/11/glenn-beck-accidentally-not-put-down.html

  33. avatar
    Daniel December 7, 2011 at 2:26 pm #

    Mr. Gumball: So, we need to increase revenue by taxing those who have increased domestic production to levels not seen since 1950.

    Wouldn’t that encourage CommieObomi to borrow more from international bankers?

    I’ve never been able to understand that portion on my Republican party that has managed to convince the poor, who stand to lose the most by such a fallacy, that the rich should not be taxed, as they are the so-called “Job Creators”?

    Do these people not realize that the rich do not create jobs with their own money? Do they not realize that the money the Rich save by not paying their share of the tax burden doesn’t go into saving the poor, but rather goes into buying yachts, and mansions, and fast cars?

    Not taxing the rich doesn’t get the poor more jobs, unless you happen to be able to apply for Janitor at the Ferrari factory. If people like Mr. Gumball believe it’s OK for him to pay more than his fair share of taxes, so that a Rich person can get a new swimming pool installed this year, then I suppose that’s his choice…. but I’m not buying into that stupidity.

  34. avatar
    Daniel December 7, 2011 at 2:30 pm #

    Lupin: You know, this is a FAIL on so many levels I’m just gobsmacked astounded.

    1) I could understand NOT responding to the 911 call at all. (e.g.: “sorry, sir, you’re outside our area of intervention”)

    2) I could understand showing up, putting out the fire, THEN billing the victims triple the initial fee of $75 afterward (for example) or whatever sum is warranted.

    3) Fires don’t respect property lines; coming out to just WATCH the fire is utterly moronic; if I was the next door neighbor and I had paid the $75 I’d still be mad as hell that that fire next door is NOT being put out by the firemen, and frankly I’d be happy to pay an extra $75 to have it put out AT ONCE.

    4) All of the above deals only with property; what is there were human beings actually in danger?

    I’m sorry, this goes beyond selfishness and avarice; it is stupidity on such a grand scale that it threatens your society.

    If you knew the fire department would come out anyways, even for triple the subscription…. why would you bother paying the subscription?

    Would you expect the insurance company to pay for your auto accident if you’d never bought coverage, even if you were willing to pay triple the deductible?

    The fire department responded to preserve life and limb, if required. That was their moral duty. Their fiscal and moral duty to the taxpayers and subscribers was to not put out a fire that the person had refused to purchase protection for.

  35. avatar
    Scientist December 7, 2011 at 2:38 pm #

    Daniel: If I may be so bold as to ask you, it seems to me that you don’t share any of the views of the current Republican party. You have just disagreed with their most cherished economic position, that taxes must never, ever, under any circustances be raised on the wealthy. You have previously indicated you don’t share their theocratic Christianist views. You don’t share their anti-science, anti-reality views. I haven’t seen that you share their foreign policy views (though I can’t really say what the current Republican foreign policy views are except to oppose anything Obama is for and support anything Obama is against). So exactly which current Republican views do you share?

  36. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 7, 2011 at 2:42 pm #

    Congress determines the budget, not the Executive. Didn’t they teach you that in school?

    Mr. Gumball: Wouldn’t that encourage CommieObomi to borrow more from international bankers?

  37. avatar
    G December 7, 2011 at 2:46 pm #

    The responsible solution is what taxes exist for in the first place…and the same reason for insurance requirements. Everyone contributes to address situations of large loss potential within the greater community. The entire theory of insurance is based on the theory of spreading risk and cost on concerns that you hope will never manifest in the first place. The greater the population participating, the better as it reduces upfront costs for all. The point of taxes is similar.

    What is irresponsible is this community deciding that they can all arbitrarily gamble on such important social responsibilities in the modern world. Sorry, but they should have had mandatory taxes commesurate to handle fire fighting costs in place for everyone and critical social institutions such as police, fire and health care providers shouldn’t be placed in a position of choosing who to respond or not respond to, based on whether they’ve paid a fee.

    Daniel: The fire department responded to preserve life and limb, if required. That was their moral duty. Their fiscal and moral duty to the taxpayers and subscribers was to not put out a fire that the person had refused to purchase protection for.

  38. avatar
    Daniel December 7, 2011 at 2:59 pm #

    Scientist:
    Daniel:If I may be so bold as to ask you, it seems to me that you don’tshare any of the views of the current Republican party.You have just disagreed with their most cherished economic position, that taxes must never, ever, under any circustances be raised on the wealthy.You have previously indicated you don’tshare their theocratic Christianist views.You don’t share their anti-science, anti-reality views.I haven’t seen that you share their foreign policy views (though I can’t really say what the current Republican foreign policy views are except to oppose anything Obama is for and support anything Obama is against).So exactly which current Republican views do you share?

    I share traditional Republican values of, for example:

    1. fiscal responsibility, of which one important aspect is that everyone pays their fairshare.

    2. That Government works for the people, which includes letting Government do what Gov does best, and Business do what Bus does best. One of the main Gov roles is to protect the people from the excesses that unscrupulous businesses are prone to, while allowing responsible business to work as unfetterd as is reasonably possible, while establshing enough reasonable regulations as to ensure a level playing field.

    3. That freedom of religion includes all religions, and includes equal freedom for the non-religious. That a person’s religion or philosophy should not be a barrier to the pursuit of LLH.

    4. That the US must NOT attempt to manipulate, through foreign policy or trade, the progression of other countries who generally seek to abide by the welfare of their citizen’s or neighbors. That the US should be ready to offer assistance to people of good will everywhere. That we should keep our damn noses out of other people’s business. This is one point where we have failed miserably.

    There are others, but in short the current Republican party seems to have abandoned many of the ideals that it traditionally held, in favor of the tripe that the neo-cons have injected. I find myself continually embarrassed but the antics of the neocon elite/teabaggers idiots who seem to be running the show.

    I’m a Republican though, and I’d rather fight than switch, and leave what’s left of the Grand Lady to the dogs.

  39. avatar
    Daniel December 7, 2011 at 3:02 pm #

    G:
    The responsible solution is what taxes exist for in the first place…and the same reason for insurance requirements.Everyone contributes to address situations of large loss potential within the greater community.The entire theory of insurance is based on the theory of spreading risk and cost on concerns that you hope will never manifest in the first place.The greater the population participating, the better as it reduces upfront costs for all.The point of taxes is similar.

    What is irresponsible is this community deciding that they can all arbitrarily gamble on such important social responsibilities in the modern world.Sorry, but they should have had mandatory taxes commesurate to handle fire fighting costs in place for everyone and critical social institutions such as police, fire and health care providers shouldn’t be placed in a position of choosing who to respond or not respond to, based on whether they’ve paid a fee.

    Agreed. The people who are bitching at the fire department should be bitching at the local council, for shirking their responsibility for ensuring that even stupid people have fire protection through fair and representative taxation.

  40. avatar
    Scientist December 7, 2011 at 3:27 pm #

    Daniel: I’m a Republican though, and I’d rather fight than switch, and leave what’s left of the Grand Lady to the dogs.

    Those views are certainly quaint in today’s Republican party. Since Reagan, they have fought hard against #1-3. I’m not sure they ever shared #4, at least not after McKinley, though to be fair, the Democrats haven’t exactly been shy about foreign interventions either

  41. avatar
    Mr. Gumball December 7, 2011 at 5:18 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Congress determines the budget, not the Executive. Didn’t they teach you that in school?

    Congress also authorizes the debt ceiling. The Treasury Department of the Executive Branch issues debt instruments to finance excessive spending. Cutting back on the issuance of debt instruments forces a decrease in spending. The ObomiCommie is in charge.

    And, somehow, the Jews are responsible.

  42. avatar
    Tarrant December 7, 2011 at 5:26 pm #

    Lupin:
    What’s wrong with you people?

    http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-headlines/tennessee-fire-department-watches-house-burn-again

    This is one reason why things like fire protection should be included in taxes. However, there is a non-negligible percentage of people who have been convinced that, despite taxes actually being at their lowest in decades, that taxes are TOO HIGH and they’re NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE, and doesn’t care that things like roads cost money.

    This county actually had a vote – not via a council, but to the voters – to have a tax levied (one currently is not) to pay for fire service. The citizens voted no. That is their right. I think they’re idiots for doing so, but that was their decision, and from what I recall, it wasn’t even close. I believe that because it’s entirely possible for a fire to get out of control and harm not just nearby houses but entire towns, that fire protection should be part of my taxes. However, the people in this area have voted more than once that they do NOT want to pay a tax to pay for this. and fire trucks and certification and maintenance cost money.

    A nearby city offers residents the ability to pay $75/year to be covered by their fire services, but it is optional. About one year ago, a fire happened near this one, the fire department came out, made sure no one’s life was in danger (that is a requirement – if someone is in danger they WILL act to save them), and then watched it burn. The homeowners offered to pay the $75 then and there, but that’s ridiculous. Furthermore, while some people said “Just charge them the full cost of fighting the fire!”, again, fires are so rare that most people would just do that and not pay the $75 (or, after the fire, would have so little left they couldn’t pay it).

    What makes this so ridiculous to me is that in the article, the family THIS year says they KNEW ABOUT LAST YEAR’S FIRE BUT FIGURED THE ODDS OF A FIRE FOR THEM WERE SO LOW THEY DIDN’T BOTHER PAYING. That is, despite knowing that the fire department would watch their home burn if they didn’t pay the fee, they still chose not to pay the fee. That’s what insurance is all about, folks. A small amount paid by everybody to offset the overall risk.

    I lived in Arizona for many years. In Arizona there are a lot of small, un-incorporated areas, even near major cities. These areas have no fire protection and often no police other than county police. Many of the local cities offer similar things – pay a small fee, and their fire services will come. Every year there were 1-2 fires by people who didn’t pay, and the thing you would hear from those homeowners (whose fire insurance, by the way, WILL NOT COVER THEIR LOSSES BECAUSE THEY REFUSED TO PAY FOR FIRE PROTECTION) is:

    “I can’t believe out of the goodness of their hearts they wouldn’t put out the fire. We just figured, why should we pay when common decency would mean they wouldn’t just sit and watch…but then that’s what they did.”

    It happens EVERY TIME. There’s a thread on Freep about this fire. It’s filled with people who, if you look at their posts all over the site, are all SMALL GOVERNMENT and DON’T MAKE ME PAY TAXES GOVERNMENT THIEVES and PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and CUT ALL SPENDING. But, much like the “Don’t let the government control health care and by the way hands off my Medicare!” crowd during HCR, when push came to shove, the thread has them pissed off the fire department didn’t put out the fire that the people – using their free will and personal responsibility – chose 100% intentionally not to pay to have put out. The thread is filled with similar things “I can’t believe out of the goodness of their hearts they wouldn’t just put the fire out.” Few of these “LIBERALS HATE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY” people would admit that the logical extension of this is to have TAXES pay for this, and that for better or worse this is an EXAMPLE of what happens when you give people PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and they choose to exercise it in a disastrous way.

    On a side note, the city’s firefighters not only cost money, but they are covered by life insurance policies and worker’s comp and medical policies that WILL NOT COVER THEM if they are injured or, heaven forbid, killed, fighting a fire for which the city does not have a contract in place to fight (barring cases where lives are at stake, where federal and state law requires them to fight the fire and they are therefore covered). Their families would be left with nothing if something should happen. The city or firefighters could lose their certifications. Their equipment could be damaged and not covered. These things all matter. If the locals are that interested in having fire protection, they can vote for the tax, or organize a volunteer department, for which there are federal grants available (but then they’d be accepting government money…) to purchase equipment.

    (IMO, it should be paid by taxes, but I don’t live there).

  43. avatar
    G December 7, 2011 at 5:30 pm #

    I applaud and share all of those 4 points you espoused. Sadly, they have no connection to today’s GOP. The only one that comes anywhere near is #1 – but only in terms that they still give it lip service, but they never actually practice it when in power.

    In terms of where things are in today’s major two parties:

    re #1 – neither party has been good at practicing fiscal responsibility. However, I feel that today’s Dems are currently much closer to a true picture of at least pushing for “everyone pays their fair share” and that the current GOP is almost solely in protecting only the ultra-rich.

    re #2 – this really seems to be closer to the actual current Dem’s actual overall position than anything else. The current GOP doesn’t want the government to do much of anything at all, except where it wants to push a specific set of theocratic social views into law. They also have become so absurdly anti-regulatory that they practically worship at the alter of Ayn Rand. Therefore, the current GOP is the antithesis of your values on #2.

    re #3 – this is totally the Dem position. The GOP has completely become the opposite of what you want here.

    re #4 – none of the parties can really claim the mantle to the principles you’ve espoused under this one. This truly is an area where the the opinions & ideas have been all over the map…both from a proposal standpoint and practice. I sense that there are a lot of larger global realpolitik issues that end up muddying this one…

    I guess my point is that I respect your loyalty and why you view yourself as Republican. However, the current GOP platforms have absolutely no connection to those values you hold and I really think the cancer has spread too deep and has become too ingrained for that to change.

    You may not have left your party, but I have news for you… your party left you…quite a while ago. I wish you well and that one day you have a new 2nd option to call home.

    However, if you are still naively supporting this warped train wreck that is today’s GOP, then you are only serving to enable them to continue to spread their cancer and working against your own self-interests.

    You may not share their extreme and twisted positions, but you are guilty of continuing to prop them up and enabling them to just become further and further extreme by your continued support for a party that no longer has anything close to an actual connection to the things you value and indeed is often staking a position that flies in the face of everything you claim to value.

    Look, I don’t consider myself a Democrat and will remain an independent. That being said, until our current party makeup & structure changes, I have had to reluctantly realize and accept that other than the Democrats, I have no other serious or sane political choices at all anymore, beyond perhaps, the local municipal level.

    Daniel: I share traditional Republican values of, for example:1. fiscal responsibility, of which one important aspect is that everyone pays their fairshare. 2. That Government works for the people, which includes letting Government do what Gov does best, and Business do what Bus does best. One of the main Gov roles is to protect the people from the excesses that unscrupulous businesses are prone to, while allowing responsible business to work as unfetterd as is reasonably possible, while establshing enough reasonable regulations as to ensure a level playing field.3. That freedom of religion includes all religions, and includes equal freedom for the non-religious. That a person’s religion or philosophy should not be a barrier to the pursuit of LLH.4. That the US must NOT attempt to manipulate, through foreign policy or trade, the progression of other countries who generally seek to abide by the welfare of their citizen’s or neighbors. That the US should be ready to offer assistance to people of good will everywhere. That we should keep our damn noses out of other people’s business. This is one point where we have failed miserably.There are others, but in short the current Republican party seems to have abandoned many of the ideals that it traditionally held, in favor of the tripe that the neo-cons have injected. I find myself continually embarrassed but the antics of the neocon elite/teabaggers idiots who seem to be running the show.I’m a Republican though, and I’d rather fight than switch, and leave what’s left of the Grand Lady to the dogs.

  44. avatar
    G December 7, 2011 at 5:31 pm #

    Yes, absolutely. You and I are in total agreement about this.

    Daniel: Agreed. The people who are bitching at the fire department should be bitching at the local council, for shirking their responsibility for ensuring that even stupid people have fire protection through fair and representative taxation.

  45. avatar
    G December 7, 2011 at 5:34 pm #

    Thanks Tarrant. You’re entire response was an excellent breakdown and reasoning of the situation and where the true problems and responsibility lie.

    Tarrant: This is one reason why things like fire protection should be included in taxes. However, there is a non-negligible percentage of people who have been convinced that, despite taxes actually being at their lowest in decades, that taxes are TOO HIGH and they’re NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE, and doesn’t care that things like roads cost money.

  46. avatar
    misha December 7, 2011 at 5:43 pm #

    Mr. Gumball: And, somehow, the Jews are responsible.

    Why, thank you. I’m glad my efforts are being acknowledged.

    Also, Trotsky was misunderstood.

    Socialism needs democracy like the human body needs oxygen. – Leon Trotsky

  47. avatar
    G December 7, 2011 at 5:47 pm #

    No it doesn’t. You truly are an idiot, an open bigot and an obvious mindless troll.

    Sorry, but a lot of the government’s expenses are locked in. Refusing to pay our bills will not decrease spending or reduce our obligations; only damage our own national credit.

    The issue of large or small government is a false choice. What we need is both a sufficient and efficient government that is equipped to address the needs of a 21st century 1st-world society reality for a population over over 300 Million people and covering a vast portion of an entire continent.

    Furthermore, our government must be focused on both the protection, growth and innovation of same, in order to regain our top ranking in the world and then to retain it.

    Sorry, but doing that requires A LOT of cost and government in order to effectively manage and maintain. Further “government” in practice is not some mysterious entitiy – it is composed of many thousands of actual citizens of the populace working towards making those needs happen. Those ARE jobs…and yes, very valuable and important ones.

    A modern nation of our size requires a sizeable cost to simply administer and maintain. In order to do that, you must bring in sufficient REVENUE to address those significant needs. That requires a sufficient tax base.

    The rest of what you wrote beyond that is just hollow, purile and bigoted flamethrowing without justification or meaning.

    Mr. Gumball: Congress also authorizes the debt ceiling. The Treasury Department of the Executive Branch issues debt instruments to finance excessive spending. Cutting back on the issuance of debt instruments forces a decrease in spending. The ObomiCommie is in charge.And, somehow, the Jews are responsible.

  48. avatar
    Arthur December 7, 2011 at 5:50 pm #

    Mr. Gumball:

    You wrote, “And somehow the Jews are responsible.”

    Ahf mir gezogt!

    Of course they’re responsible. Jews are the most intelligent, artistic, and successful ethnic/religious group on the planet, so they’re going to be where the action is.

    You better get used to it.

    Have a nosh . . . kvetch a little . . . answer a question with a question . . . and while you’re at it, would it kill you to call your Mother?

  49. avatar
    misha December 7, 2011 at 6:02 pm #

    Mr. Gumball: And, somehow, the Jews are responsible.

    The polio vaccine was invented by Dr. Albert Sabin, a Jewish physician. I challenge you to write below, a pledge that you will not allow your children to receive a polio vaccine. I also challenge you to pledge that you will actively encourage everyone you know and meet, to refuse a polio vaccine.

    I’m waiting.

  50. avatar
    misha December 7, 2011 at 6:07 pm #

    Mr. Gumball: And, somehow, the Jews are responsible.

    Arthur: Of course they’re responsible. Jews are the most intelligent, artistic, and successful ethnic/religious group on the planet

    We’re smarter than goyim like “Mr. Gumball,” who has a gumball stuck in his windpipe.

  51. avatar
    Bob J December 7, 2011 at 6:16 pm #

    Another Orly Update:

    I am a huge fan of the Orly site. I wish I could deny that fact, but I just can’t. She is nothing if not driven. Bat-{naughty word}, {ultimate bad word[ sorry Santa]} crazy, but she has an indefatigable spirit. One of the things I like about her, and her followers, is they say the first thing that pops in their head, without a care about factual implications. It is also nice to have the comfort food accusation that always ends every sentence. ” … and the fact that Obama is using a Conn. SSN that was never assigned to him.”

    Of course, I like the spontaneity because talking out of your ass is fine; if you are more interested in appearing knowledgeable than being right. The latest example from the Orly is her accusation that the Hawaii court “lost” her amended motion in her Nov 30th hearing. To read the narrative on her site, the amended motion was sent by her, for a fee of $78, and received by a clerk in Hawaii, but the court claimed to not have the motion. When some of her readers asked what the judge was talking about when stating something about the amended motion, Orly said that the judge was talking about the opposition to the amended motion. Ummmmm……..Please, if I do end up going to hell, don’t let it be a place where that makes sense.

    By looking at a few other sites, specifically from links here, it seems that the good doctor, lawyer, civil rights activist, freedom fighter, black belt, real estate agent, shining beacon for the Constitution ( am I forgetting any monikers of importance?) is trying to argue from a set of points that is different than the amended motion. She claims to have new evidence, as of the day before the hearing.

    She really is the ultimate carnival barker. The perfect foil for racist ADHD whack jobs. A stunning Miss. Direction. The strange thing is ; her followers eat it up. She reminds me of the sign: Free beer, tomorrow. It may be only a day away, but it is never here, and it is crazy that her people can’t see that. She plants the image of a shackled and disgraced President walking to the gallows, amid the throngs of grateful patriots patting the tireless heroine on the back. I wish she had delusions of judicial competence, as opposed to the grandeur she sees in that ever-spinning web called her mind.

    Sorry, that is my Orly rant for this edition of Occasional Open Thread theater. I do so love the opportunity to unburden my head of that site’s news. And I swear, I don’t have a problem. I can stop going to her site, and posting comments that will never be seen, anytime I want.

  52. avatar
    Scientist December 7, 2011 at 6:20 pm #

    Mr. Gumball: Congress also authorizes the debt ceiling. The Treasury Department of the Executive Branch issues debt instruments to finance excessive spending. Cutting back on the issuance of debt instruments forces a decrease in spending. The ObomiCommie is in charge.
    And, somehow, the Jews are responsible

    The Executive Branch is obligated by law to spend every penny appropriated by Congress (a law passed after Nixon refused to spend certain funds that Congress voted). If Congress votes taxes that are insufficient to pay for the spending they authorize, then the Treasury must borrow the funds. It’s the law, buddy.

    As for the main foreign buyers of US Treasuries they are the Bank of China, the Bank of Japan and the various OPEC countries. Not a single Jew among them. Now why don’t you go and play sonny?

  53. avatar
    misha December 7, 2011 at 6:27 pm #

    Scientist: Now why don’t you go and play sonny?

    Go play in heavy traffic.

  54. avatar
    Majority Will December 7, 2011 at 6:44 pm #

    Arthur: Have a nosh . . . kvetch a little . . . answer a question with a question . . . and while you’re at it, would it kill you to call your Mother?

    Nice!

  55. avatar
    misha December 7, 2011 at 7:02 pm #

    Mr. Gumball: And, somehow, the Jews are responsible.

    I have it figured out. “Mr. Gumball” is actually an advanced Chia pet.

  56. avatar
    G December 7, 2011 at 7:09 pm #

    Queen Bee of the Birthers… and variants thereof.

    Bob J: By looking at a few other sites, specifically from links here, it seems that the good doctor, lawyer, civil rights activist, freedom fighter, black belt, real estate agent, shining beacon for the Constitution ( am I forgetting any monikers of importance?) is trying to argue from a set of points that is different than the amended motion. She claims to have new evidence, as of the day before the hearing.

  57. avatar
    Mr. Gumball December 7, 2011 at 7:28 pm #

    Scientist: The Executive Branch is obligated by law to spend every penny appropriated by Congress (a law passed after Nixon refused to spend certain funds that Congress voted).If Congress votes taxes that are insufficient to pay for the spending they authorize, then the Treasury must borrow the funds.It’s the law, buddy.

    As for the main foreign buyers of US Treasuries they are the Bank of China, the Bank of Japan and the various OPEC countries.Not a single Jew among them.Now why don’t you go and play sonny?

    You’re confusing Mandatory Spending with Discretionary Spending. And you’re an ignorant fascist with body odor.

  58. avatar
    jayhg December 7, 2011 at 7:28 pm #

    Daniel: I’ve never been able to understand that portion on my Republican party that has managed to convince the poor, who stand to lose the most by such a fallacy, that the rich should not be taxed, as they are the so-called “Job Creators”? Do these people not realize that the rich do not create jobs with their own money? Do they not realize that the money the Rich save by not paying their share of the tax burden doesn’t go into saving the poor, but rather goes into buying yachts, and mansions, and fast cars?Not taxing the rich doesn’t get the poor more jobs, unless you happen to be able to apply for Janitor at the Ferrari factory. If people like Mr. Gumball believe it’s OK for him to pay more than his fair share of taxes, so that a Rich person can get a new swimming pool installed this year, then I suppose that’s his choice…. but I’m not buying into that stupidity.

    I agree, Daniel.

    I can’t remember where, but one nut posted that when he became rich, he wanted to have low taxes, so he was ALWAYS going to vote for republicans cause “they like to keep taxes low and this sounds great for the time when I becomes wealthy.” He says he wants to “leave all his capital gains to his children.”

    I couldn’t even post a comment I was so floored……

  59. avatar
    Scientist December 7, 2011 at 7:30 pm #

    Mr. Gumball: You’re confusing Mandatory Spending with Discretionary Spending. And you’re an ignorant fascist with body odor.

    Doc,this clown should be banned.

  60. avatar
    jayhg December 7, 2011 at 7:37 pm #

    misha: Go play in heavy traffic.

    …on the 405 (north or south between the hours of 3:30 p.m. to 8 p.m.). And do it after daylight savings times when it gets dark earlier……….

  61. avatar
    Arthur December 7, 2011 at 7:52 pm #

    Aw, let Gumbo stay. He’s like a drunk uncle at Christmas–for all his ranting, no one takes him seriously. And besides, I enjoy reading the posts that repudiate his foolishness, even as I laugh at his Palinesque “refutiations.”

    Scientist: Doc,this clown should be banned.

  62. avatar
    Daniel December 7, 2011 at 7:58 pm #

    Maybe just a warning label? Like on cigarettes, or teabaggers?

  63. avatar
    Bob J December 7, 2011 at 8:05 pm #

    Mr. Gumball

    “You’re confusing Mandatory Spending with Discretionary Spending. And you’re an ignorant fascist with body odor.”

    Wow, I have not seen such a blistering retort since; 3rd, no, 4th grade at least. Throwing in fascist, as opposed to doo-doo head, makes it a solid 4th grade comeback.

  64. avatar
    Arthur December 7, 2011 at 8:11 pm #

    Scientist: As for the main foreign buyers of US Treasuries they are the Bank of China, the Bank of Japan and the various OPEC countries. Not a single Jew among them.

    And that reminds me of a joke:

    So it’s Christmas, see, and a Jew and a Chinaman are having some chop suey in Chinatown, and the Jew, let’s call him Misha, he brings up the subject of Pearl Harbor, reprimanding the Chinaman for the disgraceful role his country played in making a sneak attack. Now the Chinese guy, I forget his name . . . Lee, Lao, Lin, something like that, starts yelling, saying the attack was carried out by Japan, not China.

    And Misha says, “Japanese, Chinese, they are all the same to me!”

    Well, the egg rolls arrive and they start eating, but pretty soon the Chinese guy is bringing up the tragic sinking of the Titanic, asking the Jew if he didn’t feel guilty about sinking it.

    “Hey, wait a minute,” says Misha, “Jews didn’t have anything to do with the Titanic sinking, it was an iceberg!”

    “Iceberg, Goldberg,” ays the Chinaman, “They’re all the same to me!”Men and Women

  65. avatar
    Majority Will December 7, 2011 at 8:45 pm #

    Arthur: He’s like a drunk uncle at Christmas–for all his ranting, no one takes him seriously

    Funny until you find out he puked in your gas tank, your wedding album is sticky and your pet gerbil is missing.

  66. avatar
    G December 7, 2011 at 9:32 pm #

    LOL… eeeewww…. that has to be the grossest combination of images to illustrate an example…

    Majority Will: Funny until you find out he puked in your gas tank, your wedding album is sticky and your pet gerbil is missing.

  67. avatar
    Keith December 7, 2011 at 9:32 pm #

    Majority Will: Funny until you find out he puked in your gas tank, your wedding album is sticky and your pet gerbil is missing.

    Oh, my goodness! What did he do with the gerbil?

  68. avatar
    G December 7, 2011 at 9:34 pm #

    Felching accident…

    …eeeeeewwwwwwwwww….

    Keith: Oh, my goodness! What did he do with the gerbil?

  69. avatar
    Arthur December 7, 2011 at 9:53 pm #

    Have you guys been drinking?

  70. avatar
    misha December 7, 2011 at 9:55 pm #

    Mr. Gumball: And you’re an ignorant fascist with body odor.

    Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries. I fart in your direction.

    I’m a communist. Communism and fascism are mutually exclusive. Learn your nouns. I’m not the ignorant one here.

  71. avatar
    jayhg December 7, 2011 at 9:59 pm #

    Arthur:
    Have you guys been drinking?

    I wish I had been drinking when I read the drunk uncle/gerbil/puke comments. At least then I would not remember ‘em……..

  72. avatar
    misha December 7, 2011 at 10:02 pm #

    Mr. Gumball: And you’re an ignorant fascist

    The entire GOP is run by Christofascists.

  73. avatar
    Keith December 7, 2011 at 10:02 pm #

    G:
    Felching accident…

    …eeeeeewwwwwwwwww….

    ARMAGEDDON!

  74. avatar
    Majority Will December 7, 2011 at 10:10 pm #

    Keith: ARMAGEDDON!

    LMAO!

    Immortal words: “In retrospect, lighting the match was my big mistake. But I was only trying to save the gerbil . . .”

  75. avatar
    Majority Will December 7, 2011 at 10:47 pm #

    Arthur:
    Have you guys been drinking?

    Not at all but I know you like a good laugh so (if you haven’t seen this already), enjoy!
    http://damnyouautocorrect.com/15063/the-15-funniest-autocorrects-from-november-2011/

  76. avatar
    Arthur December 7, 2011 at 11:01 pm #

    Yes, I do, M.W. and thanks for the link. Very funny!

  77. avatar
    Sef December 8, 2011 at 12:27 am #

    Majority Will: LMAO!

    Immortal words: “In retrospect, lighting the match was my big mistake. But I was only trying to save the gerbil . . .”

    I like: “As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly.”

  78. avatar
    J. Edward Tremlett December 8, 2011 at 1:13 am #

    “beach blanket bolsheviks…”

  79. avatar
    G December 8, 2011 at 1:29 am #

    OMFG!!! ROTFLMFAO!!!

    Thanks! That site has to be one of the funniest things I have *EVER* read…and that really says a lot! I had to stop reading several times because my eyes had teared up from laughing so hard or because I was doubled over in side-splitting laughter. My throat is actually hoarse and sore from laughing so hard and long and my guts are still in pain…

    I’ve bookmarked the site & will have to check it out often. I only went through the “Nov top 15″ page that you directly linked too… I definitely need time to recover before I tackle another dose of those gems…

    Majority Will: Not at all but I know you like a good laugh so (if you haven’t seen this already), enjoy!http://damnyouautocorrect.com/15063/the-15-funniest-autocorrects-from-november-2011/

  80. avatar
    Keith December 8, 2011 at 1:41 am #

    Arthur:
    Yes, I do, M.W. and thanks for the link. Very funny!

    Whatever you do, don’t search Yahoo for ‘felching’ and ‘gerbil’.

  81. avatar
    Obsolete December 8, 2011 at 1:53 am #

    My fscale results:
    2.2666666666
    I am a liberal airhead.

  82. avatar
    Arthur December 8, 2011 at 1:54 am #

    Keith: Whatever you do, don’t search Yahoo for felching’ and ‘gerbil’.

    Thanks for the warning . . . I’m still recovering from when I looked up “Santorum.”

  83. avatar
    Keith December 8, 2011 at 2:55 am #

    Arthur: Thanks for the warning . . . I’m still recovering from when I looked up “Santorum.”

    I meant YouTube. Don’t search YouTube for ‘felching’ and ‘gerbil’.

    No really.

    Don’t.

    OK, you’ve been warned, I’m not responsible for your laugh related ass loss.

  84. avatar
    Lupin December 8, 2011 at 4:39 am #

    G: Yes, absolutely. You and I are in total agreement about this.

    Daniel: Agreed. The people who are bitching at the fire department should be bitching at the local council, for shirking their responsibility for ensuring that even stupid people have fire protection through fair and representative taxation.

    As someone who grew up in the South of France where barbecued pine forests were a summer ritual, and then lived in L.A. where there were only two seasons, earthquake and fires, I will say that not putting a fire out as soon as it is detected is the epitome of willful stupidity and recklessness.

    I don’t care what kind of tax, fee, or pay-as-you-go system you have, but fires, like tornadoes, etc. do not respect human property boundaries. They are unpredictable, and sometimes uncontrollable.

  85. avatar
    Lupin December 8, 2011 at 4:42 am #

    On the topic of taxing the rich, GDP, etc.

    I think the Rich (say, anyone with assets over $10 million) should pay a special and separate tax not on their income but on the value of their assets, and whose amount would be directly linked to military spending.

    Call it Uncle Sam’s Protection Racket, as in, “Nice bank you’ve got there; would be a shame if the Chinese broke it”.

  86. avatar
    G December 8, 2011 at 5:10 am #

    Your points are well taken. I hope you understand that Daniel & I would both agree with that assessment.

    Our points are that these particular citizens/villages/etc. in which there isn’t an agreed and automatic collection to pay for fire/emergency serivces ARE SHIRKING their civic responsibility and committing willful acts of reckless, selfish and short-sighted stupidity as a result.

    Lupin: As someone who grew up in the South of France where barbecued pine forests were a summer ritual, and then lived in L.A. where there were only two seasons, earthquake and fires, I will say that not putting a fire out as soon as it is detected is the epitome of willful stupidity and recklessness.I don’t care what kind of tax, fee, or pay-as-you-go system you have, but fires, like tornadoes, etc. do not respect human property boundaries. They are unpredictable, and sometimes uncontrollable.

  87. avatar
    Lupin December 8, 2011 at 5:37 am #

    G: Our points are that these particular citizens/villages/etc. in which there isn’t an agreed and automatic collection to pay for fire/emergency serivces ARE SHIRKING their civic responsibility and committing willful acts of reckless, selfish and short-sighted stupidity as a result.

    I certainly would agree with that!

  88. avatar
    Lupin December 8, 2011 at 6:16 am #

    This is a first-hand report from a writer of the cartoon show FAMILY GUY who was part of OCCUPY LA and was arrested. Well worth reading:

    http://myoccupylaarrest.blogspot.com/?mid=5490

    I do not know this specific writer, but I still have a few friends in the cartoon industry in LA, and I’m told by someone I trust who knows him that he isn’t prone to exaggeration, not is he is a rabid ideologue or anarchist.

    For Thifty’s benefit, my score:
    * The LAPD sucks and more generally, the trend towards militarizing your police forces isn’t going to end well, trust me, you should be worried
    * I greatly admire and support Americans like this fellow

  89. avatar
    Majority Will December 8, 2011 at 6:51 am #

    G:
    OMFG!!!ROTFLMFAO!!!

    Thanks!That site has to be one of the funniest things I have *EVER* read…and that really says a lot!I had to stop reading several times because my eyes had teared up from laughing so hard or because I was doubled over in side-splitting laughter.My throat is actually hoarse and sore from laughing so hard and long and my guts are still in pain…

    I’ve bookmarked the site & will have to check it out often.I only went through the “Nov top 15‘ page that you directly linked too… I definitely need time to recover before I tackle another dose of those gems…

    One of my favorites is a bashful thanks for a nice first date telling the girl she had really cute nipples. Girl: “WHAT?” “OMG I meant dimples! Stupid autocorrect.” It’s like there’s a devious computer gremlin with training in Freud.

    Enjoy “Getting In The Holiday Spirit” . . .

    http://damnyouautocorrect.com/category/best-of-dyac/page/4/

  90. avatar
    Majority Will December 8, 2011 at 6:56 am #

    Arthur: Thanks for the warning . . . I’m still recovering from when I looked up “Santorum.”

    Gerbil Rocket:

    http://www.darwinawards.com/legends/legends1998-10.html

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Jt_g10Jug

  91. avatar
    Keith December 8, 2011 at 7:18 am #

    Majority Will: Gerbil Rocket:

    http://www.darwinawards.com/legends/legends1998-10.html

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Jt_g10Jug

    Awww. I was pushing him to discovering it on his own. That radio announcer reading has got to be one of the all time greatest clips, bar none.

  92. avatar
    Tarrant December 8, 2011 at 7:23 am #

    Lupin: As someone who grew up in the South of France where barbecued pine forests were a summer ritual, and then lived in L.A. where there were only two seasons, earthquake and fires, I will say that not putting a fire out as soon as it is detected is the epitome of willful stupidity and recklessness.

    I don’t care what kind of tax, fee, or pay-as-you-go system you have, but fires, like tornadoes, etc. do not respect human property boundaries. They are unpredictable, and sometimes uncontrollable.

    I agree with you 100%. But what do you do in the following scenario:

    Reasonable legislator: “Our town has no fire protection at all. A minimal tax would cover full firefighting services.”

    Anti-Tax Citizenry: “NO NEW TAXES!”

    Legislator: “Without fire protection you’ll have to buy fire service yourself, and fires don’t always stay contained. We’re talking $20 a household here.”

    Citizens: *vote out legislator* “We don’t support taxes!”

    Everything you say makes perfect sense. But sense means nothing if the people living there adamantly refuse to see the reason of the statement and reject paying for firefighters over and over again.

    There is a somewhat independent mentality that one sees sometimes in these areas of the US that seems almost any and all sort of government service that costs money as some sor of violation of their (nomexistent) right not to be taxed…until of course they need the service then it’s heartless that it wasn’t provided to them gratis.

  93. avatar
    Lupin December 8, 2011 at 7:42 am #

    Tarrant: I agree with you 100%. But what do you do in the following scenario: … There is a somewhat independent mentality that one sees sometimes in these areas of the US that seems almost any and all sort of government service that costs money as some sort of violation of their (nomexistent) right not to be taxed…until of course they need the service then it’s heartless that it wasn’t provided to them gratis.

    How do you Americans handle military spending? Does someone have the right to say, “I don’t want my taxes to pay for the Army; I’d rather learn Chinese”?

  94. avatar
    Lupin December 8, 2011 at 7:48 am #

    Worth a good laugh:

    http://www.dickipedia.org/dick.php?title=Newt_Gingrich

  95. avatar
    Scientist December 8, 2011 at 7:53 am #

    Lupin: On the topic of taxing the rich, GDP, etc.I think the Rich (say, anyone with assets over $10 million) should pay a special and separate tax not on their income but on the value of their assets, and whose amount would be directly linked to military spending.Call it Uncle Sam’s Protection Racket, as in, “Nice bank you’ve got there; would be a shame if the Chinese broke it”.

    Lupin, i think you might be unaware that even the army can be victimized by protection rackets. Here is proof.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRm5WcjOikQ

  96. avatar
    Northland10 December 8, 2011 at 7:56 am #

    Tarrant: Reasonable legislator: “Our town has no fire protection at all. A minimal tax would cover full firefighting services.”

    There was this small town whose sewage treatment plant had lived far beyond its lifespan and capacity. It was in serious need of replacement as it was failing. The town council and representatives for the state DNR set up a forum to present the various alternatives for replacement. During the various audience question moments, a few of the citizens opposed any changes at all. They demanded there be no changes and they did not want to pay any more taxes. When the presenters from the state said the forum was about how they would replace the plant not, if they would replace, it fell on deaf years. The anti-tax citizens said they needed nothing more, even after the state reminded them, “there are floaties in the bay.” To the anti-tax citizens, they wanted no change and no possibility for new taxes.

    Fortunately for the town, Lake Michigan and, later, yours truly, the anti-tax folks did not win the day and the plant was replaced. The same folks popped up later when we had a school bond issue as they complained, “why do we need to change the traffic pattern in front of the school, it wasn’t a problem when they built the school?” The school was built in the fifties and this was 2004 (and btw, they lost again).

    For those people, they complained about taxes but there was just as much an issue of “it is good enough,” and “we don’t want to change nothing,” that permeated their comments. I sometimes wonder if “anti-tax” was a cover for “no change.”

  97. avatar
    Keith December 8, 2011 at 8:41 am #

    Northland10: For those people, they complained about taxes but there was just as much an issue of “it is good enough,” and “we don’t want to change nothing,” that permeated their comments. I sometimes wonder if “anti-tax” was a cover for “no change.”

    And yet those same folks will say they want to somehow ‘recover America’s greatness’ completely forgetting that the era they want to return to, when ‘America was great’ is the era when all that infrastructure was built, and that is part of what a ‘Great America’ does: maintain and improve its infrastructure.

    No infrastructure lasts for ever, unless you’re building the pyramids. Fifty years ago we built a lot of infrastructure with an expected life span of thirty years. That’s great, but one day it is going to need replacing. It is going to cost less to do it today than it will tomorrow, and “we can’t afford it in the current economic climate” argument doesn’t wash. You can’t afford NOT to do it. there will NEVER be the ‘right economic climate’ time to do this sort of stuff, there is only the ‘do it when it needs doing’ time.

  98. avatar
    Lupin December 8, 2011 at 8:49 am #

    Scientist: Lupin, i think you might be unaware that even the army can be victimized by protection rackets. Here is proof.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRm5WcjOikQ

    One of my favorite MP sketches ever, with the Piranha Brothers.

  99. avatar
    Tarrant December 8, 2011 at 8:49 am #

    Lupin: How do you Americans handle military spending? Does someone have the right to say, “I don’t want my taxes to pay for the Army; I’d rather learn Chinese”?

    Not at all. But then again the representatives vote for that military spending. If you don’t like the spending, the theory (ha) is that you could vote in other representatives next time.

    In this case, the people in that county flat-out voted against a tax for fire service. It was put to a vote and the people voted against it. I think that is folly, but I don’t live there.

  100. avatar
    Lupin December 8, 2011 at 8:52 am #

    Keith: And yet those same folks will say they want to somehow recover America’s greatness’ completely forgetting that the era they want to return to, when America was great’ is the era when all that infrastructure was built, and that is part of what a Great America’ does: maintain and improve its infrastructure.

    America was the greatest country in the world, fought off the very real Soviet threat and went to the Moon with a top marginal tax rate of 91%.

    http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=213

  101. avatar
    Lupin December 8, 2011 at 8:55 am #

    Tarrant: In this case, the people in that county flat-out voted against a tax for fire service. It was put to a vote and the people voted against it. I think that is folly, but I don’t live there.

    Insert here bloody keyboard guy animated gif. :-)

  102. avatar
    G December 8, 2011 at 4:50 pm #

    I completely agree that the police response in this situation and many of the examples I’ve seen has used intentional force, intimidation and methods far, far in excess of any “nusaince” issue created by the protesters.

    We live in a very broken world, full of a lot of corruption and unfairness. I get angry when I see such abuses like this… however, other than calling for investigations of the police & authorities who ordered and authorized such excessive tactics, I’m at a loss for how we can realistically both achieve justice for what happened and more importantly, prevent it from happening again.

    There is no fair playing field in this world. I wish we could make progress towards more fairness in society, but power always has an inherent need to over protect its perceived interests and greed and paranoia tend to lead to abusive behaviors and acts to maintain and grow that power and prevent others from similarly obtaining it…

    I’m at a loss for any good answers to these problems that can actually be implemented (the most important point) and work.

    Lupin: This is a first-hand report from a writer of the cartoon show FAMILY GUY who was part of OCCUPY LA and was arrested. Well worth reading:http://myoccupylaarrest.blogspot.com/?mid=5490I do not know this specific writer, but I still have a few friends in the cartoon industry in LA, and I’m told by someone I trust who knows him that he isn’t prone to exaggeration, not is he is a rabid ideologue or anarchist.For Thifty’s benefit, my score:* The LAPD sucks and more generally, the trend towards militarizing your police forces isn’t going to end well, trust me, you should be worried* I greatly admire and support Americans like this fellow

  103. avatar
    G December 8, 2011 at 5:06 pm #

    The fear of change always seems to play a factor in that mentality… one which a good chunk of the population suffers from.

    The rest is selfishness and shortsightedness and not being able to grasp a world beyond one’s narrow and immediate self-interests.

    Northland10: For those people, they complained about taxes but there was just as much an issue of “it is good enough,” and “we don’t want to change nothing,” that permeated their comments. I sometimes wonder if “anti-tax” was a cover for “no change.”

    Everyone has really made some excellent points on these topics, so I don’t have much further to add except to agree that yes, that mentality is the problem and it is hard to deal with folks being that irrational and fighting against reasonable solutions…and hence why we have such difficulty making progress in our society today.

    The points about infrastructure maintenance are very important too. Well said, Keith. The only point I want to reflect on is that it seems that sometimes there is less resistence to actually conquering new ground (putting in roads, going to the moon, etc.) in the first place… yet there becomes a huge resistance to keep going back and addressing those issues.

    I think the excitement and possible sense of “adventure” of doing something the first time overcomes some of that inherent resistence mindset in the populace, but then the “newness” emotional thrill fades and it is hard to get short-sighted and selfish people to care about the very real and mundane realities of maintaining something…

  104. avatar
    Majority Will December 8, 2011 at 5:25 pm #

    Sarah who?

    “Sarah Palin endorses Donald Trump’s GOP debate, says Mitt Romney should participate”

    “What is a bit appealing about this idea of Trump hosting a debate is, consider the diverse audience that perhaps he can attract.”

    “America needs to wake up to what is going on under Obama’s socialist policies and how he will bankrupt the country,” she told Fox Business News. “I’m looking at the debate as a positive thing because of that fact.”

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/sarah-palin-endorses-donald-trump-gop-debate-mitt-romney-participate-article-1.988496

    SQUAWK!!!

  105. avatar
    Obsolete December 8, 2011 at 5:46 pm #

    Walter Fitzpatrick back in jail!

    TN man who wanted Obama indicted for treason charged after documents taken from courtroom

    http://www.wbir.com/news/article/194850/2/TN-man-who-wanted-Obama-indicted-for-treason-charged-after-documents-taken-from-courtroom

    (hat tip to NBC!)

  106. avatar
    Keith December 8, 2011 at 6:00 pm #

    Obsolete:
    Walter Fitzpatrick back in jail!

    TN man who wanted Obama indicted for treason charged after documents taken from courtroom

    http://www.wbir.com/news/article/194850/2/TN-man-who-wanted-Obama-indicted-for-treason-charged-after-documents-taken-from-courtroom

    (hat tip to NBC!)

    Now that, if true, is really, TRULY BATSHIT INSANE

    Stealing information that is going to allow you to harass and intimidate jury members?

    I don’t think Mr. Fitzpatrick is going to get a slap on the wrist this time.

  107. avatar
    G December 8, 2011 at 6:06 pm #

    Not surprised by this at all. Of course there is an audience for Donald Trump’s endorsement amongst the GOP base. Nor is it surprising that there would be considerable overlap with Palin’s following.

    These crazy folks are just a reflection of the actual (and often even more pathetically crazy) people that are part of society. They have become a significant portion of the GOP base. So yes, this clown show has total “serious” appeal to them, because they ARE clowns and this is the type of forum that represents their warped worldviews.

    Majority Will: Sarah who?“Sarah Palin endorses Donald Trump’s GOP debate, says Mitt Romney should participate”“What is a bit appealing about this idea of Trump hosting a debate is, consider the diverse audience that perhaps he can attract.”“America needs to wake up to what is going on under Obama’s socialist policies and how he will bankrupt the country,” she told Fox Business News. “I’m looking at the debate as a positive thing because of that fact.”http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/sarah-palin-endorses-donald-trump-gop-debate-mitt-romney-participate-article-1.988496SQUAWK!!!

  108. avatar
    G December 8, 2011 at 6:11 pm #

    Wow… that didn’t take long!

    People like Walt Fitzpatrick are too far gone and likely beyond redemption at this point. He is likely to continue to just cause problems any time he gets out of jail. I don’t think he can be rehabilitated or that he is any longer capable of learning lessons. He’s nothing but a broken, crazed old man and a constantly ticking time bomb.

    Obsolete: Walter Fitzpatrick back in jail!TN man who wanted Obama indicted for treason charged after documents taken from courtroomhttp://www.wbir.com/news/article/194850/2/TN-man-who-wanted-Obama-indicted-for-treason-charged-after-documents-taken-from-courtroom(hat tip to NBC!)

  109. avatar
    Arthur December 8, 2011 at 6:18 pm #

    Have you seen Rick Perry’s new ad? Among other things, he accusses Obama of leading a war on religion; but the real focus of his ire is on those homo-sicksuals. Why did you know that now it’s ok for gays can serve in the military, but American children can’t pray at school or celebrate Christmas??

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PAJNntoRgA&feature=player_embedded

  110. avatar
    Daniel December 8, 2011 at 6:27 pm #

    Arthur:
    Have you seen Rick Perry’s new ad? Among other things, he accusses Obama of leading a war on religion; but the real focus of his ire is on those homo-sicksuals. Why did you know that now it’s ok for gays can serve in the military, but American children can’t pray at school or celebrate Christmas??

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PAJNntoRgA&feature=player_embedded

    Filthy lying bastard knows how to appeal to other weak-minded lying bastards.

    Funny how when a%%#(*^% like pery appeal to “freedom of religion” it’s only HIS religion he wants freedom for.

  111. avatar
    misha December 8, 2011 at 6:32 pm #

    Obsolete: TN man who wanted Obama indicted for treason charged after documents taken from courtroom

    http://www.wbir.com/news/article/194850/2/TN-man-who-wanted-Obama-indicted-for-treason-charged-after-documents-taken-from-courtroom

    Check out my comment.

  112. avatar
    Lawyerwitharealdegree December 8, 2011 at 6:51 pm #

    misha: Check out my comment.

    I wonder if Tennessee has a three strikes law?

  113. avatar
    Daniel December 8, 2011 at 6:53 pm #

    G:
    Wow… that didn’t take long!

    People like Walt Fitzpatrick are too far gone and likely beyond redemption at this point.He is likely to continue to just cause problems any time he gets out of jail.I don’t think he can be rehabilitated or that he is any longer capable of learning lessons.He’s nothing but a broken, crazed old man and a constantly ticking time bomb.

    He only gets birther attention and sympathy when he’s in jail, therefore…

  114. avatar
    Arthur December 8, 2011 at 7:36 pm #

    Can the court order a psychiatric evaluation for a relatively minor infraction like this? Walt seems to be having an increasingly difficult time of controlling his compulsions. Like G, I’m concerned that he’s going to snap and act out in a very violent way. I believe he already has a record of domestic abuse, so the propensity to resort to violence is there.

  115. avatar
    Arthur December 8, 2011 at 7:39 pm #

    Daniel: Filthy lying bastard knows how to appeal to other weak-minded lying bastards.Funny how when a%%#(*^% like pery appeal to “freedom of religion” it’s only HIS religion he wants freedom for.

    Perry has the uncanny ability to spew hate and lies with a gentle smile and reassuring tone of voice.

  116. avatar
    Keith December 8, 2011 at 7:42 pm #

    Obsolete:
    Walter Fitzpatrick back in jail!

    TN man who wanted Obama indicted for treason charged after documents taken from courtroom

    http://www.wbir.com/news/article/194850/2/TN-man-who-wanted-Obama-indicted-for-treason-charged-after-documents-taken-from-courtroom

    (hat tip to NBC!)

    My earlier comment is in moderation, and I think I know why, so rather than wait for the Doc to return from his well deserved holiday, I’ll try to fix it.

    Now that, if true, is really, TRULY BAT SHIRT INSANE

    Stealing information that is going to allow you to harass and intimidate jury members?

    I don’t think Mr. Fitzpatrick is going to get a slap on the wrist this time.

  117. avatar
    G December 9, 2011 at 12:04 am #

    Beyond that…it looks like his previous release from prison a few days ago was in error and he owes a few more months worth of time from that:

    Additionally, the officer stated that someone had “made a mistake” in releasing Fitzpatrick on December 3, believing that he had “credit time” when he did not, and that Fitzpatrick actually “owed” 64 more days in jail as of last evening. As of press time, the time “owed” is now 63 days, according to Grande.

    http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2011/12/09/walt-go-to-jail-do-not-pass-go/

    Keith: I don’t think Mr. Fitzpatrick is going to get a slap on the wrist this time.

  118. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 9, 2011 at 1:25 am #

    I believe the film was called “Hot Summer.”

    J. Edward Tremlett: “beach blanket bolsheviks…”

  119. avatar
    Horus December 9, 2011 at 11:11 am #

    jayhg: He bought it, but too late realized it and was embarassed, but his ego will never allow him to say he was wrong.

    And boy was he embarrassed at the White House Correspondents dinner!

  120. avatar
    Horus December 9, 2011 at 11:28 am #

    Bob J: shining beacon for the Constitution

    I think you meant Bacon and not Beacon.

  121. avatar
    Horus December 9, 2011 at 11:31 am #

    jayhg: I can’t remember where, but one nut posted that when he became rich, he wanted to have low taxes, so he was ALWAYS going to vote for republicans cause “they like to keep taxes low and this sounds great for the time when I becomes wealthy.” He says he wants to “leave all his capital gains to his children.”

    As long as there are reality shows glamorizing the wealthy there will always be some poor idiot who will think that lifestyle is just within his grasp.

  122. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 9, 2011 at 8:01 pm #

    WHASSSUP DOCCCCC?

    So Doc Con, I just put up a new feature video and I was wonderin if you’d critique it for me…
    It’s REALLY a COOL video!
    I think you all are DONE!

    The American People WAKE UP after the Library of Congress proves Obama NOT to be a US Citizen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dbtOoX3exk

  123. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 9, 2011 at 8:45 pm #

    dunstvangeet: Let’s see if Berg approves my post of “The Supreme Court has already rejected your legal theory over 70 years ago. Why do you think that you don’t know that?”Gotta love a Supreme Court Case that is directly on point and is binding precedent directly against the exact theory that Philip J. Berg is actually putting out there.

    I wonder if Doc will approve MY post…C’mon Docccccccc! My video has many Supreme Court Cases that prove Obama is ineligible!

  124. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 9, 2011 at 9:15 pm #

    I’ll try to get some time to look at your video. What you say is curious, as the Congressional Research Service, an arm of the Library of Congress, just published a 50-page report saying Obama is eligible.

    I continue to find it remarkable, as I read comments on various web sites and in emails I get, how utterly and absolutely certain some folks are that Obama is ineligible to be President because his father wasn’t a US citizen, when the foundation for those beliefs is as flimsy as wet toilet paper.

    KenyanBornObama: The American People WAKE UP after the Library of Congress proves Obama NOT to be a US Citizen

  125. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 9, 2011 at 9:35 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I’ll try to get some time to look at your video. What you say is curious, as the Congressional Research Service, an arm of the Library of Congress, just published a 50-page report saying Obama is eligible.I continue to find it remarkable, as I read comments on various web sites and in emails I get, how utterly and absolutely certain some folks are that Obama is ineligible to be President because his father wasn’t a US citizen, when the foundation for those beliefs is as flimsy as wet toilet paper.

    You obviously haven’t watched the video yet. I see NO FLIMSY at all, unless you call the Library of Congress FLIMSY and I prove that Mr. CRS dude is 100% wrong!

  126. avatar
    Sean December 9, 2011 at 10:23 pm #

    KenyanBornObama: I wonder if Doc will approve MY post…C’mon Docccccccc! My video has many Supreme Court Cases that prove Obama is ineligible!

    Sure Obama is eligible to be President. He was born on US soil.

  127. avatar
    Kbell December 9, 2011 at 10:26 pm #

    Well isn’t that wonderful, She uses the speeches of anti-Chinese immigration proponents to refute Jus Soli.

    By the way “Vatt Lib” is not a reference to Vattel, But a reference to the material source. In this case” Vatt Lib.” is the Vatican Library.

  128. avatar
    Observer December 9, 2011 at 10:49 pm #

    There is no mention of Libraty of Congress. It just pastes up snippets from the Congressional Globe with the usual Trumbull etc quotes, maybe from LoC sites. The normal Vattel/Donofrio melange.

    After attacking the “left” she signs off with Woodie Guthrie, one of the best lefties in history!

  129. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 9, 2011 at 10:54 pm #

    Kbell: Well isn’t that wonderful, She uses the speeches of anti-Chinese immigration proponents to refute Jus Soli.By the way “Vatt Lib” is not a reference to Vattel, But a reference to the material source. In this case” Vatt Lib.” is the Vatican Library.

    Then how come when I pull up Vatt. Lib 4. S. 80…it has the SAME quote that I have in my video?
    “and give him a lesson which shall both efface the slain of the outrage”

    NOW HOW IS THAT? Hmmm, the Vatican, you are FUNNY!

  130. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 9, 2011 at 10:56 pm #

    Observer: There is no mention of Libraty of Congress. It just pastes up snippets from the Congressional Globe with the usual Trumbull etc quotes, maybe from LoC sites. The normal Vattel/Donofrio melange.After attacking the “left” she signs off with Woodie Guthrie, one of the best lefties in history!

    That’s cause I have no clue what “Libraty of Congress” is, so why would I mention it? DOH

  131. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 9, 2011 at 10:58 pm #

    So Doc, is your country worth 20 minutes of your time? Have you watched it yet? I’d like your opinion…

  132. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 9, 2011 at 11:02 pm #

    The American People start to pay attention after the Library of Congress proves President Obama NOT to be a United States Citizen.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=381_1323479550

  133. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 9, 2011 at 11:59 pm #

    Whattsa matte, DOCCCCC?

    Gettin a sinkin feelin in your stomach?

    I would be, if I were you and I watched the video!

    Did you watch it? OPINION????

  134. avatar
    G December 10, 2011 at 12:27 am #

    Sorry, KBOA. The CRS report has torpedoed all of your disingenuous arguments and has a huge list of citations to support it.

    That you try to use mere examples of floor debate in support of either slavery-support based racism or xenophobia against Chinese, etc. as your only “evidence” is telling of your own bigoted heart and what is really your motivation behind your attempted arguments.

    Sorry, but the actual Amendment and laws passed, in their final forms, are what matter… not the bigotry-based arguments of the day that did not win in final passage.

    It was quite telling that in your example around 4:30 into the video that you conveniently skip over that opening portion, which states “There is no such word as white in your Constitution. Citizenship, therefore, does not depend upon complexion any more than it depends upon the rights of election or of office.”

    The rest of his statement is pretty clear – other than the exception he makes for Indians (Native Americans), foreigners coming here can become NATURALIZED citizens. If you are BORN here, you are NBC.

    Gee…same as what the 14th Amendments says. Very simple concept to understand. Only 2 types of citizens -Natural Born and Naturalized. That is also quite obvious that someone born here is automatically NBC, as such people DON’T EVER go through a naturalization process and don’t need a passport to be in this country of their own birth.

    Nobody born here, regardless of the citizenship of their parents (outside of the diplomat, etc. exceptions) EVER is required to take an Oath of Allegiance. *DUH* So your entire closing argument claiming that people born here without 2 citizen parents have to take an Oath is BOGUS. Where are your examples KBOA of these “Naturalization Oaths” by people born here with one citizen parent… or even for “anchor babies” for that matter? You can’t produce them, because it DOES NOT HAPPEN! Why, because they are born NBC, regardless of parentage. FAIL AGAIN.

    The “persons subject to any foreign power” points in those discussions simply refer to what is clearly cut out as exceptions to US citizenship already – children of diplomats, etc. That is ALL that means…(and as an exception for Native Americans at the time).

    You are simply trying to twist it and broaden it to mean something way beyond its intentions. Notice that the very examples you use from the authors of the “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” language ONLY use the example of Native Americans as falling outside that clause? There is a clear reason for that, which dealt with how we enacted treaties with the Natives and treated those indigenous people of this land as not part of the US at that time…as we were in fact conquerors of their lands. Nothing about issues of dual-citizenship, etc. Nada on those arguments… so again, your examples do nothing to actually support your bogus premises.

    You wasted over 20 minutes and came up with…nothing of consequence.

    KenyanBornObama: WHASSSUP DOCCCCC? So Doc Con, I just put up a new feature video and I was wonderin if you’d critique it for me…It’s REALLY a COOL video!I think you all are DONE!The American People WAKE UP after the Library of Congress proves Obama NOT to be a US Citizen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dbtOoX3exk

  135. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 10, 2011 at 12:33 am #

    Doc, how come people AFTER me have their comments posted? It’s not like you went to bed or anything or you wouldn’t have been able to post theirs…ooohhh, you are censoring me. C;mon…you know me by now, I post nothing but facts, c’mon…ya gotta admit it!

    FREE MY COMMENTS!

  136. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 10, 2011 at 12:39 am #

    You’re on the moderation list and that’s why your comments don’t show up immediately.

    KenyanBornObama: FREE MY COMMENTS!

  137. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 10, 2011 at 12:43 am #

    Not yet. I had to finish the church contribution accounting this afternoon. I promised. I’m still playing catch up after my vacation.

    KenyanBornObama: Did you watch it? OPINION????

  138. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 10, 2011 at 12:46 am #

    I think that’s a false choice. It’s hard to imagine anything I could do in 20 minutes that would noticeably affect my country.

    KenyanBornObama: So Doc, is your country worth 20 minutes of your time?

  139. avatar
    daniel December 10, 2011 at 1:10 am #

    KenyanBornObama:
    The American People start to pay attention after the Library of Congress proves President Obama NOT to be a United States Citizen.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=381_1323479550

    Not only that, but he’s a unicorn in disguise too

    ROFLMAO

  140. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 10, 2011 at 1:13 am #

    And you obviously haven’t read the CRS report.

    KenyanBornObama: You obviously haven’t watched the video yet. I see NO FLIMSY at all, unless you call the Library of Congress FLIMSY and I prove that Mr. CRS dude is 100% wrong!

  141. avatar
    G December 10, 2011 at 2:15 am #

    *yawn* is this supposed to be some empty threat by you, KBOA? Seriously, what is the point of your lame little paranoid-obsession stalker videos anyways? They don’t seem to have had any impact at all, have they?

    …Unless your trying to win the pointless obsession award of the year… well then good for you, I hereby dub thee Most Pointless Obsessive of the Year!

    KenyanBornObama: Long time no see, still making up your lies?
    Remember my video:
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=045_1307642475

  142. avatar
    Lupin December 10, 2011 at 2:18 am #

    KenyanBornObama: The American People start to pay attention after the Library of Congress proves President Obama NOT to be a United States Citizen.

    That’s really pathetic.

  143. avatar
    Lupin December 10, 2011 at 2:25 am #

    Demented troll KBOA is an utter waste of good bandwidth (and may I add, good oxygen as well). I am looking forward to the massive reelection of Obama to pour salt into her little bigoted mind for another 4 years.

  144. avatar
    Majority Will December 10, 2011 at 2:37 am #

    Kbell:
    Well isn’t that wonderful, She uses the speeches of anti-Chinese immigration proponents to refute Jus Soli.

    By the way “Vatt Lib” is not a reference to Vattel, But a reference to the material source. In this case” Vatt Lib.” is the Vatican Library.

    Facts are just pesky, inconvenient details to a racist dolt.

  145. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 10, 2011 at 9:42 am #

    It appears that the points in the video were discussed at length here a couple of years ago. The fact of the matter is that the 14th Amendment, for what ever reason, does not use the language of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and nothing in the Act can alter or reduce the action of the 14th Amendment which makes jurisdiction the criteria for citizenship of those born in the country.

    The jurisdiction of the United States is absolute within its borders, except when the United States grants an exception such as for foreign ambassadors and visiting heads of state. So with these exceptions, all children born in the United States are subject to its jurisdiction and therefore citizens at birth.

    Even under the language of the Civil Rights Act of 1866, Obama would have been a citizen because he was not born owing allegiance to a foreign power, since no foreign power would have been able to command him at birth. As James Madison said:

    “It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth, however, derives its force sometimes from place, and sometimes from parentage; but, in general, place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States;”

    If you want any comments beyond this, post the script of your video hyperlinked to original sources. I don’t have time to retype it in order to offer rebuttal or to search for the larger context for your quotes.

    KenyanBornObama: So Doc Con, I just put up a new feature video and I was wonderin if you’d critique it for me…

  146. avatar
    ballantine December 10, 2011 at 10:11 am #

    “The fact of the matter is that the 14th Amendment, for what ever reason, does not use the language of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and nothing in the Act can alter or reduce the action of the 14th Amendment which makes jurisdiction the criteria for citizenship of those born in the country.”

    The author of the Civil Rights Act language, Lymon Trumbull, like the language proposed by Howard for the 14th Amendment better. He had acknowledged his difficulty in coming up with language that was satisfactory. Trumbull and other members of such Congress repeatedly stated during the Civil Right Act debates that children of aliens would be citizens. One reason President Johnson vetoed the Act that it was understood to make children of Chinese aliens. The replies to his veto message were also clear:

    “This clause is unnecessary, but nevertheless proper, since it is only declaratory of what is the law without it. This has been sufficiently demonstrated by the by the distinguished chairman of the judiciary committee and by the authorities he has cited ….. In the great case of Lynch vs. Clarke, it was conclusively shown that in the absence of all constitutional provision or congressional law declaring citizenship by birth, “it must be regulated by some rule of national law coeval with the existence of the Union” it was and is that “all citizens that children born here, are citizens, without any regard to the political condition or allegiance of their parents.” Rep. Lawrence, Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., lst Sess. 1832 (1866)(House reply to Johnson’s veto).

    “And, as is suggested by a Senator-behind me, even the infant child of a foreigner born in this land is a citizen of the United States long before his father.” Senator Trumbull (reply to President Johnsons’s Veto), William Horatio Barnes, History of the Thirty-ninth Congress of the United States, pg. 254 (1868).

    “What I said then I say now, that as far as the United States are concerned, all persons born within the limits of the United States are to be considered as citizens, and that without reference to the color or the race; and after the abolition of slavery the negro would stand precisely in the condition of the white man….Mr. Justice Curtis held that the Constitution of the United States assumes that citizenship can be acquired by nativity. That is the common law, that is the law of the civilized world, that he would is born in a country, and not made a slave at the moment of birth by any municipal law, becomes, by virtue of his birth, a citizen…” Senator Johnson, Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., lst Sess. 1776 (1866).

  147. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 10, 2011 at 10:31 am #

    Mr. Cowan, cited in the video, clearly understood that the 14th Amendment would make the child of a non-citizen a citizen because he voted against the 14th Amendment. When he says: “It is perfectly clear that the mere fact that a man is born in the country has not heretofore entitled him to the right to exercise political power” he misstates the historical record (as did the Dred Scott decision which the 14th Amendment overturns).

    Cowan asks: “is the child of the Chinese immigrant in California a citizen?” What the video doesn’t say is that Lyman Trumbull replied “undoubtedly” to this question. And certainly that specific question was answered unambiguously post 14th Amendment by the US Supreme Court in US v Wong.

    The video essentially says “I know better than the Supreme Court.” That’s silly.

    KenyanBornObama: So Doc Con, I just put up a new feature video and I was wonderin if you’d critique it for me…

  148. avatar
    ballantine December 10, 2011 at 11:07 am #

    Trumbull also reminded Cowen that if children of German aliens were not citizens, his home state of Pennsylvania would not have any citizens it being well know that most immigrants never bothered to be naturalized. Cowen had no problem with children of Germans.

    “The children of Germans parents are citizens; but German are not Chinese.” Sen. Cowen, Cong. Globe, 39th Cong. 1st Sess. 498 (1866)

    I think there is a word for Cowen. He again later railed against the Chinese and asked how the Senator from California felt. Sen. Conness replied:

    “The proposition before us, I will say, Mr. President, relates simply in that respect to the children begotten of Chinese parents in California, and it is proposed to declare that they shall be citizens. We have declared that by law [the Civil Rights Act]; now it is proposed to incorporate the same provision in the fundamental instrument of the nation. I am in favor of doing so. I voted for the proposition to declare that the children of all parentage whatever, born in California, should be regarded and treated as citizens of the United States, entitled to equal civil rights with other citizens of the United States. Senator Conness, Cong. Globe, 39th Cong. 1st Sess. 2890 (1866)

    No one else raised an objection. Sen. Williams also talked about the Chinese:

    “The Constitution of the United States provides that no person but a native-born citizen of the United States, with other qualifications as to age and residence, shall be president of the United States…. Is the Congress of the United States prepared at this time to adopt a proposition that negroes and Indians and Chinese and all persons of that description shall be eligible to the office of President…” Senator Williams, Cong. Globe, 39th Cong., lst Sess. 573 (1866).

    Remember, the chinese could not be naturalized and hence all children of chinese were children of aliens. Williams spoke again on the subject during the 15th Amendment debates:

    “I propose to insert before the word “citizen” the word “natural-born;” so that it will read: “The right of natural-born citizens of the United States to vote and hold office shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.” If that amendment is adopted it will not be competent for Congress or for any State to discriminate against any person born in the United States on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude ; but the States may discriminate as against foreign-born persons. Adopt this amendment of mine and the States of California and Oregon would be able to provide that any persons born in China or Japan should not exercise political power in those States, but California or Oregon could not provide that any person born in the United States, no matter what his color might be, sbonld be deprived of the elective franchise or the right to hold office; so that the effect of this amendment would be that it would leave it with the States to declare that persons born in Asia or in Africa should not exercise political power within the several States.” Senator Williams, The congressional globe, Volume 61, Part 2. pg. 938 (1869)

    Senator Johnson also spoke on the Chinese:

    “The Amendments to the Constitution now pending seek to make citizens of the United States of all men born in the country of lawful age…It makes citizens not only of the pet negro but also of the filthy Chinese.” Sen. Johnson, The Congressional Globe, 3rd Session, 40th Congress pg. 1067 (1868)

  149. avatar
    The Magic M December 10, 2011 at 11:31 am #

    And more epic failure coming the birfers’ way:

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/12/10/presidential-candidate-meeting-with-sheriff-joe-arpaio-yielded-devastating-information/

    “The next morning, we headed over to the DNC at around 9:00. We walked into the office; there was an older guy playing video games. There was a bearded individual whom we approached and asked if he worked for the organization, and he said “yes.” So we served him the papers.”

    He’s referring to this garbage:
    http://libertylegalfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/CCA-AZ-MPI-filed.pdf

    So they think walking into a DNC office and handing papers to some random guy is proper service. I’m not a US lawyer, but I think this is hogwash squared, again.

    Expect another Orlyesque claim of “we win by default because no timely response was made” next. *facepalm*

  150. avatar
    The Magic M December 10, 2011 at 11:54 am #

    Kbell: By the way “Vatt Lib” is not a reference to Vattel, But a reference to the material source. In this case” Vatt Lib.” is the Vatican Library.

    I’m not so sure about this. The Vatican Library is usually abbreviated “Vat. lib.” (and I don’t see where the extra “t” would come from).
    Besides, Google only turns up 6 pages of “Vatt. lib.” references, but none explains the abbreviation.

  151. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 10, 2011 at 1:29 pm #

    Whatsa Matta Doc, why are you deleting the link to my video. You are WORRIED about it, aren’t you!

    If you weren’t afraid of the FACTS, you would not have deleted my comment!

    Your LIES are starting to unravel, oh what a shame! hahahahahahahaha

    [One of the reasons you are in moderation is that you don't respect the topics on this site, but post your stuff anywhere. Your video has nothing to do with Phil Berg's comments on social-security numbers. I moved all of the discussion over to the Open Thread topic where it belongs. I didn't delete anything; I just tidied up your mess. By the way, I did look at your video and made comments. Doc.]

  152. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 10, 2011 at 1:31 pm #

    The American People WAKE UP after the Library of Congress proves Obama NOT to be a US Citizen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dbtOoX3exk

  153. avatar
    GeorgetownJD December 10, 2011 at 3:08 pm #

    The Magic M:
    And more epic failure coming the birfers’ way:

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/12/10/presidential-candidate-meeting-with-sheriff-joe-arpaio-yielded-devastating-information/

    “The next morning, we headed over to the DNC at around 9:00.We walked into the office; there was an older guy playing video games.There was a bearded individual whom we approached and asked if he worked for the organization, and he said “yes.”So we served him the papers.”

    He’s referring to this garbage:
    http://libertylegalfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/CCA-AZ-MPI-filed.pdf

    So they think walking into a DNC office and handing papers to some random guy is proper service. I’m not a US lawyer, but I think this is hogwash squared, again.

    Expect another Orlyesque claim of “we win by default because no timely response was made” next. *facepalm*

    They didn’t even walk into a DNC office. While Dummett & Co. failed to follow the rules of procedure for service, even has they managed to do so, they served a non-party.

    Even had this been the correct party, they still failed. A corporation, partnership or unincorporated association can be served only via personal service on an officer, partner, registered agent or other person authorized to accept service. An unidentified volunteer doesn’t count.

    And then, even it they had managed to get that part correct, the service still would not be effective. Van Irion is a party’s attorney, and as such, he may not personally serve a complaint and summons.

    More birther buffonery.

  154. avatar
    G December 10, 2011 at 4:09 pm #

    Well, at least each of these “Great White Hope” fantasy tactics keep most of the unhinged occupied and rocking back and forth, muttering “any…day…now” instead of snapping and potentially taking matters to a harmful level. Hopefully, this latest garbage will keep the clowns occupied well into February.

    Further, all of these Birther “Presidential Candidates” that have come out of the wood work are no different than the Fantasy Grand Jury stuff we saw several years back.

    They are not real candidates, they are just playing at being one. So far we have 4 known Birther “Presidential Candidates” – Cody Judy, Thomas MacLeran, Leah Lax and this John Dummett.

    Not a single one of them appears on the NH primary ballot for either party, which is quite telling as any crazy who takes the time and effort and pays the small filing fee could have filled out the forms and even mailed in their info to get on that ballot:

    http://www.sos.nh.gov/Candidates.pdf

    Nor did they attempt nor qualify to appear in SC:

    http://www.p2012.org/chrn/souc12.html

    Claiming to run for President and then not really appearing on any ballots, except maybe a single state or a small handful of easy access states is not credibly running for anything.

    Many of these clowns are trying to glom onto state ballot challanges, using their “candidate” status to claim “standing”… sorry, but not much of an argument when you are not a serious candidate and have no actual path to either nomination delegates or electoral victory.

    The Magic M: And more epic failure coming the birfers’ way:http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/12/10/presidential-candidate-meeting-with-sheriff-joe-arpaio-yielded-devastating-information/“The next morning, we headed over to the DNC at around 9:00. We walked into the office; there was an older guy playing video games. There was a bearded individual whom we approached and asked if he worked for the organization, and he said “yes.” So we served him the papers.”He’s referring to this garbage:http://libertylegalfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/CCA-AZ-MPI-filed.pdfSo they think walking into a DNC office and handing papers to some random guy is proper service. I’m not a US lawyer, but I think this is hogwash squared, again.Expect another Orlyesque claim of “we win by default because no timely response was made” next. *facepalm*

  155. avatar
    sfjeff December 10, 2011 at 6:21 pm #

    After reading the posts by Kenyanborn- what is it about Birthers and video’s?

    When I see anyone posting a video- especially a video about what dead people said- I know it will be a waste of my time.

    First of all, I can read any actual content faster than I can listen to it. I can also more easily determine what the actual content is if it is written rather than some video presentation.

    Every Birther video I have wasted my time on has been a very clumsy attempt at obfuscating the actual facts.

    So I rarely if ever will ‘spend 20 minutes of my life’ viewing Birther propaganda. Reading it is trashy enough. Viewing it is like watching bad porn- you don’t learn anything, its all fake and you feel unclean afterwards.

  156. avatar
    Northland10 December 10, 2011 at 6:25 pm #

    G: They are not real candidates, they are just playing at being one. So far we have 4 known Birther “Presidential Candidates” – Cody Judy, Thomas MacLeran, Leah Lax and this John Dummett.

    Not a single one of them appears on the NH primary ballot for either party, which is quite telling as any crazy who takes the time and effort and pays the small filing fee could have filled out the forms and even mailed in their info to get on that ballot:

    Andy Martin is on the ballot but, apparently, not bothering to bring a challenge. Given the Martin does would not be eligible by the 2-parent birthers, I assume that the the Orly and her minions would want to protect the Constitution by challenging Martin as well. Oh yeah, they didn’t… I am SOOOO shocked.

  157. avatar
    Scientist December 10, 2011 at 6:32 pm #

    sfjeff: After reading the posts by Kenyanborn- what is it about Birthers and video’s?

    Their intended audience is barely literate, so text won’t work.

  158. avatar
    Northland10 December 10, 2011 at 6:33 pm #

    sfjeff: After reading the posts by Kenyanborn- what is it about Birthers and video’s?

    When I see anyone posting a video- especially a video about what dead people said- I know it will be a waste of my time.

    First of all, I can read any actual content faster than I can listen to it. I can also more easily determine what the actual content is if it is written rather than some video presentation.

    Thus I do not watch them.

    I have wondered about their fascination with using video instead. Maybe they are showing their dislike for reading by using videos or realize that their audience only learns by watching (Fox News).

    I suppose if you have a fondness in watching train wrecks, or Jerry Springer, watching Rudy’s videos could be a source of entertainment.

  159. avatar
    G December 10, 2011 at 6:48 pm #

    Ah, good catch! Yes, Andy Martin is the only actual Birther candidate on the NH ballot! I apologize that he is so forgetable that he slipped my mind. ;)

    As you also noted, he’s not participating in any of these crazy ballot challenge efforts to date.

    Northland10: Andy Martin is on the ballot but, apparently, not bothering to bring a challenge. Given the Martin does would not be eligible by the 2-parent birthers, I assume that the the Orly and her minions would want to protect the Constitution by challenging Martin as well. Oh yeah, they didn’t… I am SOOOO shocked.

  160. avatar
    Majority Will December 10, 2011 at 7:11 pm #

    G:
    Ah, good catch!Yes, Andy Martin is the only actual Birther candidate on the NH ballot!I apologize that he is so forgetable that he slipped my mind.

    As you also noted, he’s not participating in any of these crazy ballot challenge efforts to date.

    But I’ll bet he’d love to be on Trump the Rump’s Krazy Klown Klatch™ pretending to be a serious debater.

  161. avatar
    Majority Will December 10, 2011 at 7:15 pm #

    Northland10: Thus I do not watch them.

    I have wondered about their fascination with using video instead.Maybe they are showing their dislike for reading by using videos or realize that their audience only learns by watching (Fox News).

    I suppose if you have a fondness in watching train wrecks, or Jerry Springer, watching Rudy’s videos could be a source of entertainment.

    There’s a bizarre fascination of internet video by dim-witted birthers. You know, it’s them ‘movin’ pitchers’.

    “I saw it on the Utubes so it must be true!”

  162. avatar
    Majority Will December 10, 2011 at 7:18 pm #

    Scientist: Their intended audience is barely literate, so text won’t work.

    A similar phenomenon can be observed by dangling a piece of string over most small, young animals and teasing them with the motion.

  163. avatar
    Majority Will December 10, 2011 at 7:21 pm #

    sfjeff: So I rarely if ever will spend 20 minutes of my life’ viewing Birther propaganda. Reading it is trashy enough. Viewing it is like watching bad porn- you don’t learn anything, its all fake and you feel unclean afterwards.

    Apt analogy. But good porn on the other hand?

  164. avatar
    Scientist December 10, 2011 at 7:21 pm #

    Majority Will: A similar phenomenon can be observed by dangling a piece of string over most small, young animals and teasing them with the motion

    But small young animals are cute. Birthers aren’t.

  165. avatar
    Majority Will December 10, 2011 at 7:25 pm #

    Scientist: But small young animals are cute.Birthers aren’t.

    Excellent point.

    Many birthers start off looking like this:
    http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/ugly-babies-7.jpg

    And they never lose that expression of bewilderment.

  166. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 10, 2011 at 11:49 pm #

    “By the way, I did look at your video and made comments. Doc”

    Yes, I noticed your drivel!

  167. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 11, 2011 at 12:07 am #

    Keith: Just so you understand, it appears that this service is for employers to verify the SSN details of their employee for the purposes of filling out tax forms.Are you the direct employer of Barrack Husein Obama and are you filling out his tax forms? I thought not. You would then appear to be breaking the law by using that service in the manner you are using it. People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

    Actually, WE ARE the direct employer of Obama. He WORKS FOR US! DOH!

  168. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 11, 2011 at 12:08 am #

    Poor Doc, can’t handle the truth!

  169. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 11, 2011 at 12:09 am #

    WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH

  170. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 11, 2011 at 12:15 am #

    The Magic M: I’m not so sure about this. The Vatican Library is usually abbreviated “Vat. lib.” (and I don’t see where the extra “t” would come from).Besides, Google only turns up 6 pages of “Vatt. lib.” references, but none explains the abbreviation.

    It’s there, look harder!

  171. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 11, 2011 at 12:19 am #

    Northland10: Thus I do not watch them. I have wondered about their fascination with using video instead. Maybe they are showing their dislike for reading by using videos or realize that their audience only learns by watching (Fox News). I suppose if you have a fondness in watching train wrecks, or Jerry Springer, watching Rudy’s videos could be a source of entertainment.

    I make videos because the Obots can’t read or WON’T read the facts, when they are in writing. But obviously, they can’t watch pictures or words directly from the horses mouth and understand what they meant. Instead to change the law to whatever you feel like and act like it’s the truth.

    SORRY, YOU LOSE AGAIN!

    My facts win and the American People are waking up!

    Later libtards!

  172. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 11, 2011 at 12:20 am #

    Wah Wah Wah Doc can’t handle the truth!

  173. avatar
    KenyanBornObama December 11, 2011 at 12:17 pm #

    Oh I forgot, CENSOR CENSOR CENSOR!

    I LOVE IT!

    Tootles

  174. avatar
    The Magic M December 12, 2011 at 4:42 am #

    Northland10: I assume that the the Orly and her minions would want to protect the Constitution by challenging Martin as well. Oh yeah, they didn’t

    I can never decide if I find the birfers’ reaction, if confronted with such inconsequence, amusing or aggravating.

    On the one hand, they go “if we allow Obama to go through with this, it sets a dangerous precedent”, yet when you challenge one of their puppets, they say “why should he show his papers, Obama didn’t either”.

    The Dumb Reply Award however goes to one guy on WND who, the other day, replied to the question “why don’t the Republican candidates show their papers?” with “maybe no-one has asked them yet”…

    If this doesn’t prove it’s only about Obama (as in “the black Democrat”) and not “the Constitution”, nothing does.

  175. avatar
    Vince Treacy December 12, 2011 at 11:46 am #

    I seem to be caught in A Descent into the Maelstrom at the Kids Post at the Washington Post:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/kidspost/23-kids-adopted-from-other-countires-become-us-citizens-at-a-ceremony/2011/11/23/gIQAdPoAXO_allComments.html?ctab=all_&#comments

    It all started when Apuzzo wrote a response to an article at his site, but found himself unable to master the process of posting it on the Kids Post, so he asked for help.

    An obliging sock puppet named Aristotle obliged, and other birther trolls chimed in with the usual birther slime.

    It is now in the stratosphere.

  176. avatar
    Majority Will December 12, 2011 at 3:51 pm #

    Vince Treacy:
    I seem to be caught in A Descent into the Maelstrom at the Kids Post at the Washington Post:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/kidspost/23-kids-adopted-from-other-countires-become-us-citizens-at-a-ceremony/2011/11/23/gIQAdPoAXO_allComments.html?ctab=all_&#comments

    It all started when Apuzzo wrote a response to an article at his site, but found himself unable to master the process of posting it on the Kids Post, so he asked for help.

    An obliging sock puppet named Aristotle obliged, and other birther trolls chimed in with the usual birther slime.

    It is now in the stratosphere.

    I enjoyed reading your replies. You probably want some sort of cleansing chemical bath now to scrub off the birther slime. They certainly create quite a stink.

  177. avatar
    Majority Will December 12, 2011 at 4:18 pm #

    File this under, “You Have GOT To Be Kidding Me”.

    Newt takes no-adultery pledge

    By ALEXANDER BURNS | 12/12/11 1:09 PM EST

    (excerpt) When the Iowa social conservative group The Family Leader unveiled a sweeping pledge on marriage and abortion over the summer, Newt Gingrich was one of the candidates who passed on signing it.

    Now, Gingrich has answered the pledge with a lengthy written response, vowing to support a federal marriage amendment, reinstate the Mexico City policy — and, per the stipulations of The Family Leader pledge, to be faithful to his wife:

    “I also pledge to uphold the institution of marriage through personal fidelity to my spouse and respect for the marital bonds of others.”

    (source: http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-haberman/2011/12/newt-takes-noadultery-pledge-106920.html)

  178. avatar
    Daniel December 12, 2011 at 4:22 pm #

    Ummmmmmmm….. isn’t marriage itself a “no-adultery” pledge by default?

  179. avatar
    Majority Will December 12, 2011 at 4:41 pm #

    Daniel:
    Ummmmmmmm….. isn’t marriage itself a “no-adultery” pledge by default?

    Don’t blow their little minds with the obvious.

  180. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) December 12, 2011 at 5:03 pm #

    Vince Treacy: I seem to be caught in A Descent into the Maelstrom at the Kids Post at the Washington Post:http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/kidspost/23-kids-adopted-from-other-countires-become-us-citizens-at-a-ceremony/2011/11/23/gIQAdPoAXO_allComments.html?ctab=all_&#commentsIt all started when Apuzzo wrote a response to an article at his site, but found himself unable to master the process of posting it on the Kids Post, so he asked for help.An obliging sock puppet named Aristotle obliged, and other birther trolls chimed in with the usual birther slime.It is now in the stratosphere.

    I see you ran into our banned Troll DancingRabbit/DraggingCanoe/Whatever else he wants to call himself.

  181. avatar
    Observer December 12, 2011 at 5:38 pm #

    “I also pledge to uphold the institution of marriage through personal fidelity to my spouse and respect for the marital bonds of others, THIS TIME.”

    Cross fingers.

  182. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 12, 2011 at 10:51 pm #

    WorldNetDaily has unearthed the old Herb Titus video that I wrote about last May in their new article yesterday.

  183. avatar
    The Magic M December 13, 2011 at 3:53 am #

    I think it was linked in an article at P&E or ORYR a couple days before, which is why I saw it before WND did. ;)

  184. avatar
    John Reilly December 13, 2011 at 8:46 am #

    Ms. Dr. Taitz reports on her web site that she has obtained a Georgia administrative subpoena to Dr. Fuddy demanding both that Dr. Fuddy appear for a deposition and for a trial in Georgia. I’ve never seen a subpoena commanding an appearance at two events, but, then again, I have not been schooled in the law like Ms. Dr. Taitz. Several commentators have pointed out to Ms. Dr. Taitz that a Georgia subpoena does not have any effect in Hawaii, a problem I believe she has had before, but that has not deterred her.

  185. avatar
    Daniel December 13, 2011 at 3:44 pm #

    Orly never lets things, like being schooled on a previous mistake, prevent her from making that same mistake again…. and again….and….

  186. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 13, 2011 at 6:33 pm #

    There has been some speculation in comments here (some deleted) as to the reason for the recent silence of KenyanBornObamAcorn. The actual reason is the third-party spam filter this site uses that decided that KBOA comments were spam. The filter usually works remarkably well, but on rare occasions such as this it makes a mistake. I just found the comments when clearing out the spam.

    However, KBOA became upset when her comments didn’t appear, and she went back in to her threatening mode. For this reason, after approving some of the mistakenly flagged comments, I have banned her for life and that is the reason for any future silence.

  187. avatar
    Bob J December 13, 2011 at 6:40 pm #

    KenyanBornObama claims their facts win ( never knew facts could be claimed as one’s own), so here is my question:

    Is your moniker one of those “facts”?

    Was the current President born in Kenya?

    “I make videos because the Obots can’t read or WON’T read the facts, when they are in writing. But obviously, they can’t watch pictures or words directly from the horses mouth and understand what they meant. Instead to change the law to whatever you feel like and act like it’s the truth.”

    What does that mean? The last 2 sentences make no sense. The first sentence is a little iffy. ( A person can’t read facts when they are writing? Ummm……)

    This is not an attack, but a question to a poster who claims a factual high ground.

    If your name is a lie can anything you state be verified?

  188. avatar
    Keith December 13, 2011 at 8:07 pm #

    The Donald has fired himself.

    Donald Trump Pulling Out Of GOP Debate

    Because he wants to keep his options to run as an independent open :-))

  189. avatar
    Rickey December 13, 2011 at 8:24 pm #

    John Reilly:
    Ms. Dr. Taitz reports on her web site that she has obtained a Georgia administrative subpoena to Dr. Fuddy demanding both that Dr. Fuddy appear for a deposition and for a trial in Georgia.I’ve never seen a subpoena commanding an appearance at two events, but, then again, I have not been schooled in the law like Ms. Dr. Taitz.Several commentators have pointed out to Ms. Dr. Taitz that a Georgia subpoena does not have any effect in Hawaii, a problem I believe she has had before, but that has not deterred her.

    Yes, a civil court in Georgia has no jurisdiction to compel the testimony of someone in another state. A spoof subpoena has surfaced:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/75527814/Georgia-Subpoena

  190. avatar
    Keith December 13, 2011 at 8:58 pm #

    Discrimination is destroying people from all walks of life, yes, even in Australia.

    Tough at the Top

  191. avatar
    G December 13, 2011 at 10:02 pm #

    lol

    Keith: Discrimination is destroying people from all walks of life, yes, even in Australia.Tough at the Top

  192. avatar
    Daniel December 13, 2011 at 10:42 pm #

    Keith:
    The Donald has fired himself.

    Donald Trump Pulling Out Of GOP Debate

    Because he wants to keep his options to run as an independent open )

    Of course it has nothing at all to do with the fact that only two of the candidates would show up, none of the serious and influential GOPr’s wouldhave anything to do with it….. nooooo…. nothing like that….

    /facepalm

  193. avatar
    The Magic M December 14, 2011 at 4:47 am #

    I have one question about something that struck me as odd when I read the transcript of Wolf vs Fuddy.

    The judge asked defense cousel if it really was Congress’ job to determine the eligibility of a candidate/president-elect and went as far as saying “are you sure, because when I rely on your statement, that carries a lot of weight”.
    I was puzzled because I thought judges know such things. Why would the judge want an argument from counsel?
    Or is that a question of procedure, like, a judge cannot presume an argument that a party never made? (In my country, the judge may presume everything which is “common knowledge”, such as “there’s a full moon every X days”, but may not make a legal argument on behalf of one party, such as “plaintiff’s request is barred by the statute of limitation even though defendant never claimed it is”.)

  194. avatar
    Daniel December 14, 2011 at 10:22 am #

    The Judge was probably just crossing her t’s and dotting her i’s. Always better if you can make have counsel make the arguement.

  195. avatar
    sfjeff December 14, 2011 at 2:25 pm #

    Majority Will: File this under, “You Have GOT To Be Kidding Me”.Newt takes no-adultery pledgeBy ALEXANDER BURNS | 12/12/11 1:09 PM EST(excerpt) When the Iowa social conservative group The Family Leader unveiled a sweeping pledge on marriage and abortion over the summer, Newt Gingrich was one of the candidates who passed on signing it.Now, Gingrich has answered the pledge with a lengthy written response, vowing to support a federal marriage amendment, reinstate the Mexico City policy — and, per the stipulations of The Family Leader pledge, to be faithful to his wife:“I also pledge to uphold the institution of marriage through personal fidelity to my spouse and respect for the marital bonds of others.”(source: http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-haberman/2011/12/newt-takes-noadultery-pledge-106920.html)

    I figure this pledge is sort of like when convicts suddenly find God in prison. Sure it can be true for some of them….but the timing is rather suspicious.

  196. avatar
    Rickey December 14, 2011 at 3:28 pm #

    sfjeff: I figure this pledge is sort of like when convicts suddenly find God in prison. Sure it can be true for some of them….but the timing is rather suspicious.

    I have often asked religious people who believe that divorce is a sin the following question:

    “If you want forgiveness from God for divorcing your spouse, shouldn’t you demonstrate your sincerity by divorcing your new spouse and reconciling with your first spouse?”

    I have never received a satisfactory answer to that one.

  197. avatar
    Daniel December 14, 2011 at 3:48 pm #

    Rickey: I have often asked religious people who believe that divorce is a sin the following question:

    “If you want forgiveness from God for divorcing your spouse, shouldn’t you demonstrate your sincerity by divorcing your new spouse and reconciling with your first spouse?”

    I have never received a satisfactory answer to that one.

    What I find interesting is that the religious right is constantly preaching about how divorce is a sin, and how “true” Christianity is the solution to all our family breakup problems. Yet, according to BARNA, born-again Christians have a divorce rate that’s just as high as non-Christians.

    If “Christian marriage” is so much better, wouldn’t one expect to see a very much reduced divorce rate among the very Christians making the claim?

  198. avatar
    The Magic M December 15, 2011 at 4:17 am #

    sfjeff [quoting Newt]: I also pledge to uphold the institution of marriage through personal fidelity to my spouse and respect for the marital bonds of others

    Let’s parse words the birfer way here: isn’t it very suspicious he’s only referring to “the marital bonds of others”? This sounds like “I won’t sleep with somebody else’s wife, but a single woman is fair game”.

  199. avatar
    J. Potter December 16, 2011 at 3:18 pm #

    Speaking of conspiracies in relation to Obama, here’s a fun twist from Borowitz. It is, of course, a joke … website referenced in story is not real ….. but suspicion may grow over time. Especially as these twice daily debates hammer home the disconnects.

    http://www.borowitzreport.com/2011/12/16/conspiracy-theorists-believe-actual-republican-candidates-are-tied-up-somewhere/

  200. avatar
    Vince Treacy December 16, 2011 at 3:33 pm #

    I was in an exchange at the Washington Post, but the Post has started scrubbing my postings. I hope the Doctor will allow me to post here what I cannot post there:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/kidspost/23-kids- ceremony/2011/11/23/gIQAdPoAXO_allComments.html?ctab=all_&#comments adopted-from-other-countires-become-us-citizens-at-a-

    Arbitrary wrote this:

    Mr. Treacy,

    Why not just admit that there was no municipal law of the United States regarding birth on the soil? The only municipal law of the United States regarding citizenship are the naturalization laws of United States.

    The U.S. Constitution did not provide a mandate that the individual state adopt the common law of England. At the time the U.S. Constitution was ratified, only one State had ratified their state constitution. That was Massacheusetts (and that constitution did not mention the common law of England).

    In order to accept your premise, we would also be forced to accept the notion that the states had been able to amend the Constitution simply because a majority of them adopted similar laws. This premise of statutory creation is wholely unsupported and repugnant to our form of government. It is the law of a snake oil salesman, not the law of the United States.

    If most of the counties in a state adopt the same stautory provision, does that become the municipal law of the state? Can you provide any judical holding or statutory provision to support that premise?

    Did Louisiana adopt the common law of England? would you go so far as to impose the common law of England on a state that rejected it?

    You tell us to look to municipal law for citizenship laws. What source provided guidance for this proposition? Is Van Dyne the original source?

    Why didn’t Van Dyne provide support for his footnote? Since when did Van Dyne’s footnote become the law of the land?

    This is my response, deleted by the Washington Post:

    You sure have a lot of questions, Arbitrary. Who are you, anyway?

    Are you Mario Apuzzo? He thinks the framers relied “upon natural law and the law of nations and not the English common law to define citizenship in our society.” Are you maybe Brennan Joseph Murphy, “eestorblog”?

    Try answering your own questions for a change. Try reading the CRS Report again, because it cites nearly 1000 authorities in over 200 footnotes and states the conclusions generally accepted by the American legal profession and the American public.

    By the way, I do NOT admit that there was no American municipal law of citizenship before the 14th Amendment. See the Lynch case in the Report. The American law of citizenship is now governed by the 14th Amendment, in Louisiana and everywhere else, so it doesn’t really matter that much anymore, does it now?

    I will repeat, American citizenship is determined by American law, and always has been, not by international law or by the “law of nature” or by any British or Kenyan law. Some want to let a foreign country, or their personal theories of some unenacted “laws of nature,” determine eligibility for an American President. They are welcome to their theories; it would be very dangerous if it were the law, but it is not the law.

    The Constitution and laws of the United States are the supreme law of the land, and they are the basis for both natural born citizenship and citizenship.

    (This discussion has gone on long enough, so anonymous posters cannot expect any more, but I will be glad to talk to folks with real names).

    Anyone interested in the topic should take a look at: http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/bookmarks/fact-checking-and-debunking/the-debunkers-guide-to-obama-conspiracy-theories/

  201. avatar
    G December 16, 2011 at 5:11 pm #

    LMAO! Great use of humor to make a very, very true point.

    J. Potter: Speaking of conspiracies in relation to Obama, here’s a fun twist from Borowitz. It is, of course, a joke … website referenced in story is not real ….. but suspicion may grow over time. Especially as these twice daily debates hammer home the disconnects.http://www.borowitzreport.com/2011/12/16/conspiracy-theorists-believe-actual-republican-candidates-are-tied-up-somewhere/

  202. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy December 17, 2011 at 8:13 am #

    Vince Treacy: Arbitrary wrote this:

    The U.S. Constitution did not provide a mandate that the individual state adopt the common law of England. At the time the U.S. Constitution was ratified, only one State had ratified their state constitution. That was Massacheusetts [sic] (and that constitution did not mention the common law of England).

    “Arbitrary” is not correct in this statement. South Carolina ratified their constitution in 1776 and it states that existing colonial laws remain in effect until changed. One of those laws adopts the English Common Law.

  203. avatar
    Majority Will December 17, 2011 at 6:50 pm #

    Evidently, birthers think it is acceptable professional conduct by an attorney to stalk a judge or anyone possibly associated.

    Posted on Orly’s blog:

    MARTINDALE JUDGE PROFILE FOR JUDGE MICHAEL M. MALIHI

    Posted on | December 15, 2011 | 4 Comments

    (source: http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/?p=29112#comments)

    Michael M. Malihi
    Deputy Chief State Admin.
    230 Peachtree St., N.E., Ste. 850
    Atlanta, Georgia
    (DeKalb & Fulton Cos.)

    Profile Visibility
    #159 in weekly profile views out of 18,227 lawyers in Atlanta, Georgia
    #11,965 in weekly profile views out of 1,458,411 total lawyers Overall
    Experience & Credentials
    Practice Areas Employment Law; Housing Law; Domestic Relations law
    University University of Alabama, B.A.
    Law School Boston University, J.D.
    Admitted 1991
    ISLN 900907621

    Comments:

    Insight
    December 15th, 2011 @ 8:46 am

    This, is not good. He was at B.U. when Obama, was at Harvard. The two law schools, are right across the Charles River from, each other. Obama and Malihi probably knew each other (maybe from, attending Muslim functions together). You should, get this judge recused and get a judge, with an American name.

    orly taitz
    December 15th, 2011 @ 11:55 am

    (IP redacted)
    1625 Rose Ave
    Long Beach, CA 90813
    Juana Mora
    1625 Rose Ave, Apt A
    Long Beach, CA
    0Sarob Sim
    Saroeun Sim
    1625 Rose Ave, Apt C
    Long Beach, CA
    Your IP leads to Sarob and Saroeun Sim, which sounds lika Muslim names from Pakistan. Which one are you?
    You seem to be pretty close, only half an hour away from my office and you are engaged in baiting me in doing something that would infuriate the judge and will get me sanctioned.
    So, who are you really and who are you working for?

    MichaelN
    December 15th, 2011 @ 2:20 pm

    Saroeun Sim
    https://www.facebook.com/(redacted)

    MichaelN
    December 15th, 2011 @ 2:27 pm

    Sarob Sim
    Upload Photo
    Sarob Sim
    Location: Long Beach, CA
    URL: mylife.com/(redacted)
    Places Lived:
    Long Beach, CA
    Lakewood, CA
    Get Sarob’s Contact Info!
    http://www.mylife.com/(redacted)

  204. avatar
    The Magic M December 17, 2011 at 8:03 pm #

    Majority Will: Evidently, birthers think it is acceptable professional conduct by an attorney to stalk a judge or anyone possibly associated.

    I’m not sure if “Insight” isn’t punking Orly and her minions. His atrocious punctuation is obviously a spoof of some birthers’ way of putting commas where none belong.

  205. avatar
    Majority Will December 17, 2011 at 8:52 pm #

    The Magic M: I’m not sure if “Insight” isn’t punking Orly and her minions. His atrocious punctuation is obviously a spoof of some birthers’ way of putting commas where none belong.

    Good, point.

  206. avatar
    Greenfinches December 18, 2011 at 7:38 am #

    R.I.P. Vaclav Havel

    wholly unrelated to Obama, but we can pause to mourn the passing of a great man and fighter for democracy.

  207. avatar
    Obsolete December 18, 2011 at 1:05 pm #

    Is that snark, Greenfinches?
    (Not the part about Havel dying, or being a “great man and fighter for democracy.”)

  208. avatar
    Greenfinches December 18, 2011 at 1:57 pm #

    what, you want to mock my cybername????

  209. avatar
    G December 18, 2011 at 4:00 pm #

    Here is more about him:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A1clav_Havel

    Greenfinches: Vaclav Havel