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AZ: Sheriff Joe asks for Selective Service investigation

Joe Arpaio photoIn a press release today, Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio says that he has sent a letter to Director Lawrence Romo of the U. S. Selective Service System, asking him to investigate Obama’s draft registration in the wake of the MSCO volunteer band of birther report that it’s a forgery. This is reported by E. J. Montini at AZCentral.com. Arpaio also wants Romo to “produce the original form so forensic document examiners can analyze the document to determine if it is authentic.” I would assume that the original form is long gone, having been filmed or scanned. I also have seen no information that leads me to believe that the MSCO has any qualified forensic document examiners.

If this were a legitimate inquiry, it would have been made privately and before the Cold Case Posse investigation went public with its own allegations. Doing this now  proves that the MSCO investigation wasn’t legitimate in the first place, and this letter is just for publicity. Now that the Maricopa County Sheriff appears to be acting as an agent for WorldNetDaily, we can reasonably expect a regular stream of such announcements about Obama’s birth certificate and related conspiracy theories from him, just has we have seen from WorldNetDaily for over three years now.

An interesting possibility, however, is that due to some strange planetary alignment, the Selective Service System might just reply. If they do, what impact will this have on the credibility of the Arizona investigation? Probably none. Most people think the investigation is bogus already, and the rest will just say the conspiracy is bigger, including the Selective Service.

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132 Responses to AZ: Sheriff Joe asks for Selective Service investigation

  1. avatar
    J. Potter March 22, 2012 at 12:10 am #

    Investigation via media? Interesting there a word for that?

    What’s wrong with McCarthy Breitbart’s face in that picture, Doc? Looks like his nose is determined to tuck into his lower lip. That can’t be right.

  2. avatar
    Thrifty March 22, 2012 at 12:15 am #

    So how long until Birthers cry “Obama has sealed the selective service records! If he has nothing to hide, why not release them??”

  3. avatar
    Kenneth Olsen March 22, 2012 at 12:29 am #

    How’s Doc’s hunt for 2-digit year stamp samples from Hawaii going?
    On March 1st, Doc said he’d probably debunk the good Sheriff with such samples within 48 hours.

    Ah, memories….

  4. avatar
    Thrifty March 22, 2012 at 12:48 am #

    I believe he did. It was only about 21 hours.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/03/sheriff-joes-selective-service-fraud-debunked/

    The Cold Case Posse provided no actual evidence that the selective service registration was forged. They provided a simple fact (the date stamp was missing a 1 and a 9) and said “this is proof of fraud”. Birthers, gullible and desperate to uncritically believe any sort of mud that anyone anywhere slings against Obama, believed them. It reminds me of ghost hunters who like to play scientist without any of the education or hard work. They point at electromagnetism and say “That means ghosts!!!!”

    Kenneth Olsen:
    How’s Doc’s hunt for 2-digit year stamp samples from Hawaii going?
    On March 1st, Doc said he’d probably debunk the good Sheriff with such samples within 48 hours.

    Ah, memories….

  5. avatar
    J. Potter March 22, 2012 at 12:52 am #

    WND is still floggin’ it:
    http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/sheriff-joe-tons-more-shocking-obama-info/

    The page came up for me with a Google ad for rubberstamps.com 😀

  6. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 22, 2012 at 12:57 am #

    I thought I banned you. Oh well.

    What I think I said was that I expected someone to come up with an example within 48 yours, not that I would personally debunk it with a sample within 48 hours.

    In any case, nobody published an example. I sent an email to one cover dealer and asked specifically for a 1980 Hawaiian example. He replied that he was out of town and would check when it got back to his place of business. He eventually replied that he didn’t have any. Of course finding any example for any year and any post office refutes the premise of the cold case posse claim that a missing year is proof of forgery and I shouldn’t have been so specific.

    In fact, one of the Posse’s “legitimate” marks shows letters from the supposedly authentic stamp missing (Exhibit G in the book).

    I have someone who is going to check a collection of cancels when he gets the chance in mid April.

    That said, there’s no reason to conclude that the Obama stamp is nothing other than poorly inked strike. The cold case posse offered no evidence against that possibility. They did point out that the “80” in the Obama stamp appeared in a different position than the “80” in another example, but if you look at the “good” example, the date is off-center, so that’s the one that is misplaced.

    The cold case posse’s results are facially invalid, but sometimes the smoking gun that even a birther can understand is hard to find.

    And you’re still banned.

    Kenneth Olsen: How’s Doc’s hunt for 2-digit year stamp samples from Hawaii going?
    On March 1st, Doc said he’d probably debunk the good Sheriff with such samples within 48 hours.

    Ah, memories….

  7. avatar
    justlw March 22, 2012 at 1:03 am #

    The CCP video has an example of a Makiki Station stamp with a missing character, from the Bruce Henderson SSS card. It’s a self-annihilating presentation.

  8. avatar
    Feinne March 22, 2012 at 1:32 am #

    The FBI must really be about to arrest America’s Most Corrupt Sheriff if he’s going this hog-wild.

  9. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 22, 2012 at 1:41 am #

    ANY
    DAY
    NOW.

    But seriously, what are they going to arrest him for?

    Feinne: The FBI must really be about to arrest America’s Most Corrupt Sheriff if he’s going this hog-wild.

  10. avatar
    Joe Acerbic March 22, 2012 at 3:24 am #

    Felony stupidity.

  11. avatar
    Judge Mental March 22, 2012 at 4:42 am #

    Got to disagree with you Doc that there can be much doubt the SS will reply to Arpaio.

    I fully understand that they are quite different circumstances but Amon replied to Pajama and Flahavan replied to Arduini, neither demonstrating any reticence about making comments and references to aspects of Obama’s actual registration by name and number. They also had no hesitation in complying with the FOIA request which gave rise to publication of the copy of the card in the first place.

    They’ll reply all right……whether Arpaio wil publish their reply and how it will be spun if he does, are quite another matter.

  12. avatar
    The Magic M March 22, 2012 at 5:04 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: But seriously, what are they going to arrest him for?

    It’s just the latest rehash of an old crank meme – “if he was lying, he’d have been arrested/sued by now; since he hasn’t been arrested/sued, he isn’t lying”.

  13. avatar
    Expelliarmus March 22, 2012 at 6:26 am #

    I believe that the Selective Service already confirmed Obama’s registration in response to a FOIA request, several years ago. I think the birthers played the whole fraud game back then, too … but they kind of miss the point on what the registration is all about.. (It’s not about the form used to submit the info or the method of delivery of the form — it is about the fact that the registration took place, by whatever means. These days it can be done online, or automatically by checking a box on the FAFSA form, which is what high school seniors use when they are applying for financial aid for college.) So once the Selective Service confirmed that they had Obama’s name in their database… that’s it. Whatever their records show is conclusive.

  14. avatar
    Ageix March 22, 2012 at 6:31 am #

    Just to let y’all know, The local talk radio show this morning is taking this WND Arpaio story and broadcasting it over the airways. Thanks for staying on top of this.

  15. avatar
    Majority Will March 22, 2012 at 6:35 am #

    Ageix:
    Just to let y’all know, The local talk radio show this morning is taking this WND Arpaio story and broadcasting it over the airways.Thanks for staying on top of this.

    I hope they’re ridiculing this senseless birther bigot.

  16. avatar
    bovril March 22, 2012 at 6:36 am #

    One of the many, many, many things our dear little Birfoon idiots forget is that the Shurrif has been very very loud in saying this was NOT a law investigation but an “investigation” by a bunch of amateur yahoos without any legal authorities or powers.

    They also forget that Shurrif of a county has at most LIMITED in state powers and authorities and ZERO out of state and federal.

  17. avatar
    Lupin March 22, 2012 at 6:53 am #

    I never get tired of this. Arpaio: wanted in Mexico.

    http://www.artotyrite.org/arpaio.jpg

  18. avatar
    Loren March 22, 2012 at 8:09 am #

    Remember how at the press conference and in interviews afterward, Arpaio was adamant that the investigation was done by volunteers and cost the taxpayers nothing?

    According to this latest press release, it is Sheriff Arpaio, *not* Zullo or the Posse, that has made the request of the Selective Service. So Arpaio can’t hide behind the excuse of ‘It’s not an official action of my office’ anymore.

  19. avatar
    alg March 22, 2012 at 8:38 am #

    Here is what the Arizona Republic has to say about all of this:

    http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/2012/03/20/20120320editorial0321-coming-birther-state.html

    Enjoy!

  20. avatar
    Scientist March 22, 2012 at 8:39 am #

    Loren: Remember how at the press conference and in interviews afterward, Arpaio was adamant that the investigation was done by volunteers and cost the taxpayers nothing?According to this latest press release, it is Sheriff Arpaio, *not* Zullo or the Posse, that has made the request of the Selective Service. So Arpaio can’t hide behind the excuse of It’s not an official action of my office’ anymore.

    Let’s pretend that everything Arpaio alleges is 100% Gospel truth (and pigs fly). Given that the alleged forged documents were Hawaiian and federal and that they were never used in Arizona (Arpaio has provide nothing to suggest they were), I cannot, for the life of me, see a crime that falls into the MCSO’s jurisdiction, And therefore, I cannot, for the life of me, see how using the resources of the MSCO to investigate a matter that is not a crime in their jurisdiction is not official misconduct by the Sheriff.

  21. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 22, 2012 at 8:56 am #

    The original FOIA response was accompanied by a “screen print” from the Selective Service data system showing the registration. The allegations at that time were that someone in Selective Service had participated in inserting the fake data and document into their system.

    Expelliarmus: I believe that the Selective Service already confirmed Obama’s registration in response to a FOIA request, several years ago.

  22. avatar
    Scientist March 22, 2012 at 9:07 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The original FOIA response was accompanied by a “screen print” from the Selective Service data system showing the registration. The allegations at that time were that someone in Selective Service had participated in inserting the fake data and document into their system.

    How would inserting a fake document in 2008 or thereabouts get you student loans in the 1980s? Also, there is an electronic Selective Service database and such systems have electronic records of each time an entry is altered.

  23. avatar
    Majority Will March 22, 2012 at 9:15 am #

    alg:
    Here is what the Arizona Republic has to say about all of this:

    http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/2012/03/20/20120320editorial0321-coming-birther-state.html

    Enjoy!

    “When a committee member, Sen. David Lujan, a Democrat, asked whether Seel believed Obama has a valid birth certificate, Seel cited Arpaio’s investigation as “pretty conclusively” showing there is a “great deal of question as to whether or not the long-form birth certificate issued by the White House is valid.”

    Issued by the State of Hawaii. What a moron. Or Seel is too cowardly to accuse another state government of malfeasance. Or both.

  24. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 22, 2012 at 9:30 am #

    You raise a valid point. I have tweaked the article.

    Judge Mental: Got to disagree with you Doc that there can be much doubt the SS will reply to Arpaio.

  25. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 22, 2012 at 9:41 am #

    I wouldn’t make that statement without knowing a lot more about the SSS software, and the history of that software. Lots of systems that track changes can be gotten around by and administrator or an IT person, and that’s true of older systems in particular. I say that having written systems used by the federal government that I could have circumvented (but we’re talking the 1980’s here, when generally accepted security standards were lower than they are today).

    Scientist: Also, there is an electronic Selective Service database and such systems have electronic records of each time an entry is altered.

  26. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 22, 2012 at 9:42 am #

    The Magic M: It’s just the latest rehash of an old crank meme – “if he was lying, he’d have been arrested/sued by now; since he hasn’t been arrested/sued, he isn’t lying”.

    Being stupid isn’t a crime….even in Arizona. Nothing Arpaio has done in this little drama will ever result in his arrest.

    That said there is a federal investigation of his office that has been going on for too long that might result in his arrest some day.

  27. avatar
    JPotter March 22, 2012 at 9:48 am #

    So the image floating around is from the Selective Service? Has anyone compared it to a vintage registration card from the 1980? If anyone collects such things.

    If Arpaio (or his crack team) actually sent a (proper!) request to the (proper!) office, he’ll get a similar response, and allege the SS has been duped. If no response, they’re stonewalling. More of same.

    There is an error at birther debunker wiki. On the page for this meme, under the heading “Resolution”, states image shows a postmark of July 29, 2008. A malicious edit? That’s irritating. Hope Foggy fixes that!

  28. avatar
    Obsolete March 22, 2012 at 10:24 am #

    BTW- how come no mention of SS number fraud by the Cold Case Posse? The Sheriff would have access to real databases to check SS numbers. Did they look into it and decide that the fraud charges were bogus? If so, how come they didn’t tell the public they “cleared” Obama on that one?
    If they learned the birthers were lying or “mistaken” about SS fraud, why did they take the rest of their nonsense at face value?

  29. avatar
    Obsolete March 22, 2012 at 10:26 am #

    Yup, I’ve decided- When birthers bring up the SS number crap, I’ll simply tell ’em how Sheriff Joe found no evidence of SS fraud.

  30. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 22, 2012 at 10:31 am #

    …unless WorldNetDaily had paid Sheriff Joe or promised him some future thing of value in exchange for the use of his office. I’m not saying that there’s any evidence of such a deal, just offering a scenario under which he could be arrested for his little drama.

    CarlOrcas: Being stupid isn’t a crime….even in Arizona. Nothing Arpaio has done in this little drama will ever result in his arrest.

  31. avatar
    JPotter March 22, 2012 at 10:39 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: …unless WorldNetDaily had paid Sheriff Joe or promised him some future thing of value in exchange for the use of his office. I’m not saying that there’s any evidence of such a deal, just offering a scenario under which he could be arrested for his little drama.

    He’ll be writing columns for them after his “retirement”. Hell, maybe before. I swear WND is like the Oakland Raiders of the frightwing media.

  32. avatar
    Thomas Brown March 22, 2012 at 10:42 am #

    My Posse (the Posse on the Side) is still looking into the possibility that Arpaio may have assisted Tim McVeigh in the Oklahoma Federal Building bombing. He lived in Arizona not long before carrying out the second most heinous terrorist attack on American soil.

    Of course, we’re not accusing Joe of any crimes. Yet. But we do have probable cause for suspicion.

  33. avatar
    Scientist March 22, 2012 at 10:44 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I wouldn’t make that statement without knowing a lot more about the SSS software, and the history of that software. Lots of systems that track changes can be gotten around by and administrator or an IT person, and that’s true of older systems in particular. I say that having written systems used by the federal government that I could have circumvented (but we’re talking the 1980′s here, when generally accepted security standards were lower than they are today).

    Having done FDA submissions in the 2000s, I know that there were a lot of standards developed since the 1980s to track changes made to databases. This has a big area of focus, since FDA and many other agencies have required electronic filing for the last decade and many security standards were implemented as part of that. At a minimum, you are implicating well beyond a single corrupt individual since you are dealing with both a paper document and a database, all of which had to have taken place under a prior administration of a different party.

    And again, federal student loans were cross-checked against the registration database even back in the 1980s as this was a big political bugaboo pushed by Congressman Gerald Solomon back in the day. Since we know the President got federal student loans (since people pled guilty to accessing those records) it is simply proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he registered in 1980.

  34. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 22, 2012 at 10:50 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: …unless WorldNetDaily had paid Sheriff Joe or promised him some future thing of value in exchange for the use of his office. I’m not saying that there’s any evidence of such a deal, just offering a scenario under which he could be arrested for his little drama.

    How about a possible consumer fraud case? WND thinks it’s getting a real investigation and they got their own drivel back?

  35. avatar
    Scientist March 22, 2012 at 10:50 am #

    CarlOrcas: Nothing Arpaio has done in this little drama will ever result in his arrest.

    I don’t think it’s legal to use a sheriff’s office to investigate a matter that is not a crime in the state where the sheriff serves. Otherwise, a sheriff could investigate anyone for anything-marital infidelity, reading a controversial book, you name it. I would think that would be a federal civil rights violation. As I noted above, none of the behavior alleged by Arpaio in this case is a crime in Ariizona (though some would be federal or Hawaii crime).

  36. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 22, 2012 at 10:52 am #

    While I don’t normally participate at the Debunker’s wiki, I do have access and I have fixed the error. Thanks.

    It was just a typo, nothing malicious. Like the Wikipedia, the Debunker’s Wiki has a “history” tab where you can see who made what change.

    JPotter: There is an error at birther debunker wiki. On the page for this meme, under the heading “Resolution”, states image shows a postmark of July 29, 2008. A malicious edit? That’s irritating. Hope Foggy fixes that!

  37. avatar
    JPotter March 22, 2012 at 11:02 am #

    Obsolete: BTW- how come no mention of SS number fraud by the Cold Case Posse?

    Arpaio is being employed to push the WND-brand strain of birtherism, most specifically, the Corsi strain. Corsi hasn’t pushed the SSN meme since 9/12/11, 5 days before announcing Arpaio had taken the bait. For Corsi/WND, the new (old) story is the selective service card. They have either abandoned the SSN poo as tainted by Taitz, a dead end, or let it idle so thy can whip it out again after other memes have run their course.

    Could we get these various memes listed at Intrade and trade them like futures?

    When WND posts another globe-spanning, everything including the birther sink, WTBC? in a handbasket article article (here’s the latest one!), usually tasked to a 2nd- or 3rd-tier writer (Hi, Mr. Kovacs! Thanks for keeping Corsi’s hands clean by taking out the trash!), they mention the SSN, and various others, in passing, to remind the readers what they should be seething about.

    With all that stuff wrong, something must be …. wrong, right? 😀

  38. avatar
    G March 22, 2012 at 11:21 am #

    Agreed.

    Expelliarmus: So once the Selective Service confirmed that they had Obama’s name in their database… that’s it. Whatever their records show is conclusive.

  39. avatar
    Bob March 22, 2012 at 11:41 am #

    I think Arpaio is selling WND books in exchange for favorable coverage during his legal problems with the DOJ. He knows that, at least, the Birthers will support him (or anyone no matter how odious) who is in their tribe of lying miscreants. As long as Arpaio continues with the weasel words and doesn’t dismiss the outlandish idea that Obama isn’t eligible the Birthers will support him.

  40. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 22, 2012 at 11:56 am #

    Scientist: don’t think it’s legal to use a sheriff’s office to investigate a matter that is not a crime in the state where the sheriff serves. Otherwise, a sheriff could investigate anyone for anything-marital infidelity, reading a controversial book, you name it. I would think that would be a federal civil rights violation.

    This little episode is mild compared to what he’s pulled in the past. I won’t go through it all here but if you want to look at years of similar nonsense – some of which may result in his indictment – check out the Phoenix New Times:

    http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/arpaio/

    Given the fact that what the posse did really isn’t an investigation (no police powers) I wonder what kind of case could be made. Don’t get me wrong….I’d love to see him held accountable but this one is really mild compared the arrests and indictments of judges, newspaper editors and county officials.

  41. avatar
    JPotter March 22, 2012 at 12:12 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: While I don’t normally participate at the Debunker’s wiki, I do have access and I have fixed the error. Thanks.It was just a typo, nothing malicious. Like the Wikipedia, the Debunker’s Wiki has a “history” tab where you can see who made what change.

    Thanks, Doc! I had perused the history a ways, all the edits I saw had the error. So I told myself “Doc will save me in the morning” and went to bed. Slept well, knowing I had created yet another conspiracy for the birthers to obsess over! 😉

    “It wasn’t a typo, it was an subconscious admission of the obvious!” says a future birther.

    “I confess to conspiring to correct. I did the proofreading, Doc did the editing. Guilty as charged.”

  42. avatar
    Scientist March 22, 2012 at 12:13 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Given the fact that what the posse did really isn’t an investigation (no police powers) I wonder what kind of case could be made

    That may have been true as long as the fiction of a posse not using public funds was maintained. Now that the Sheriff is sending out letters under the auspices of the office, then I think he must specify what Arizona law violations he is investigating.

    I think it’s a dangerous situation when law enforcement types investigate people (especially real or perceived political opponents) for non-criminal matters. Suppose a sheriff sends investigators to see whether an opponent has cheated on their spouse-wouldn’t that be an abuse of office?

    Or let’s make an analogy as close as I can get to this case. What if NY AG Schniederman (a Democrat) decided to investigate Mitt Romney’s Swiss and Cayman bank accounts, even though Romney is not a New York resident and thus there couldn’t be a violation of New York law? I will wait patiently for any of the birther to tell me that would be OK.

  43. avatar
    JPotter March 22, 2012 at 12:21 pm #

    CarlOrcas: How about a possible consumer fraud case? WND thinks it’s getting a real investigation and they got their own drivel back?

    Good one, CO! Arpaio would easily wiggle out …. by throwing Corsi under the bus! Hee-hee!

    But, to make such a case, there would have to be an admission of payment or a recognition of a contract between WND and Arpaio’s office? And WND would have to press the charges? Since it would immediately blow up in their faces, I am sure they’re already on it. 😉

  44. avatar
    donna March 22, 2012 at 12:23 pm #

    “I will wait patiently for any of the birther to tell me that would be OK.”

    lol

    are you holding your breath?

    please have 911 on “speed dial” and a defibrillator at your side

  45. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 22, 2012 at 12:34 pm #

    Scientist: That may have been true as long as the fiction of a posse not using public funds was maintained. Now that the Sheriff is sending out letters under the auspices of the office, then I think he must specify what Arizona law violations he is investigating.

    Sheriffs are constitutional officers in Arizona and they have a lot of latitude in running their offices. That said it’s obvious that the use of paid staff to handle PR puts the lie to the notion that the “investigation” cost the taxpayers nothing.

    Scientist: I think it’s a dangerous situation when law enforcement types investigate people (especially real or perceived political opponents) for non-criminal matters. Suppose a sheriff sends investigators to see whether an opponent has cheated on their spouse-wouldn’t that be an abuse of office?

    Actually it might not be if adultery is a crime in the state but your point is right on and that’s exactly what Arpaio, with help from a foolish county attorney, did for years.

    Scientist: I will wait patiently for any of the birther to tell me that would be OK.

    I hope you’re not holding your breath.

  46. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 22, 2012 at 12:35 pm #

    JPotter: But, to make such a case, there would have to be an admission of payment or a recognition of a contract between WND and Arpaio’s office? And WND would have to press the charges? Since it would immediately blow up in their faces, I am sure they’re already on it.

    Well……we can hope.

  47. avatar
    The Magic M March 22, 2012 at 1:15 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The allegations at that time were that someone in Selective Service had participated in inserting the fake data and document into their system.

    That always was and always will be the final fallback for every birther claim.
    If any record they claim was “forged” or “doesn’t exist” were ever examined to the level birthers demand – and by an authority they trust – and found legit, they will simply claim the person creating the record was lying.
    As in “even a legit original birth certificate only proves someone back then wrote down that Obama was born in Hawaii, that doesn’t mean that person wasn’t lying”.
    And then you’re at the point where you ask them “then what is actually proof of anything” and they will go “I don’t care”…

  48. avatar
    y_p_w March 22, 2012 at 1:38 pm #

    Scientist: Or let’s make an analogy as close as I can get to this case. What if NY AG Schniederman (a Democrat) decided to investigate Mitt Romney’s Swiss and Cayman bank accounts, even though Romney is not a New York resident and thus there couldn’t be a violation of New York law? I will wait patiently for any of the birther to tell me that would be OK.

    Or perhaps if Arpaio’s office investigated, charged, and/or arrested judges and/or Maricopa County Supervisors who are his political enemies rather than refer it to the state of federal government like most would to avoid a conflict of interest. Wait a minute – that did happen.

  49. avatar
    justlw March 22, 2012 at 1:52 pm #

    JPotter: So the image floating around is from the Selective Service? Has anyone compared it to a vintage registration card from the 1980?

    Yeah — the birthers have, and the CCP has. In these comparisons, Obama’s card looks absolutely legitimate to me.

    The only two anomalies on it are the missing “19” (and I’ll point out yet again that the specimens of “genuine” cards the birthers have also have missing ink stamp characters) and the handwritten date, which is one day after that of the date stamp.

    Occam’s Razor would seem to me to favor

    “misinked stamp” and “wrote down the wrong date”

    over

    “the Obama campaign got one of a handful of 40-year-old stamps ever made for the post office in his neighborhood, but didn’t get one of the hundreds of thousands of stamp blocks with “19”s ever made. They then infiltrated the Bush-era Selective Service computer and inserted an image of the card, plus got the appropriate ’80s era Document Locator Numbers and Selective Service Registration Numbers, and properly integrate these into the electronic databases. And oh by the way, he was able to get student loans decades before this forgery was accomplished, even though these were predicated on Selective Service registration.”

    But that’s just me.

  50. avatar
    JPotter March 22, 2012 at 1:55 pm #

    justlw: the birthers have, and the CCP has.

    Thanks justlw …. but why do you imply a difference in these 2 entities? 😉

  51. avatar
    Scientist March 22, 2012 at 2:51 pm #

    y_p_w: Or perhaps if Arpaio’s office investigated, charged, and/or arrested judges and/or Maricopa County Supervisors who are his political enemies rather than refer it to the state of federal government like most would to avoid a conflict of interest. Wait a minute – that did happen.

    Many small town bullies have their way for a long time scaring the locals iinto submission. Until someone bigger and stronger comes to town…

  52. avatar
    jayHG March 22, 2012 at 3:15 pm #

    Arpaio made a fool of himself by throwing with the loony birthers and now he’s trying to drag legitimate agencies into the fray cause he’s embarassed!!??? And you, doc, think that they might actually give him something!???? You’re kidding, right?

    I don’t think that he can go to the U. S. Selective Service System in his capacity as sheriff doing an investigation and ask that they give him documents about anyone, least of all the President of the United States.

    I mean, if he is doing an actual investigation, has probable cause as happens in a REAL investigation BEFORE courts allow folks to get documents such as, say, a birther certificate. But I don’t believe that he can go willy nilly like he’s doing here. That’s scary.

    Suppose some fool gets mad at me and then the U. S. Selective Service System lets them go rooting around my files with them???? I just don’t think they would do that……even with sheriff joe WITHOUT some probable cause for asking for the records in the first place.

  53. avatar
    y_p_w March 22, 2012 at 5:52 pm #

    Scientist: Many small town bullies have their way for a long time scaring the locals iinto submission. Until someone bigger and stronger comes to town…

    Maricopa County is actually quite large, but Shurruff Joe actually has a pretty small department given the size of the county. He’s actually the small fish in the pond. Phoenix (by far) and Mesa have considerably larger police departments than the office Joe runs. Scottsdale and Tempe combined have more officers than the MCSO.

    The local police don’t get along with the MCSO. While most sheriff’s departments will back off if it’s not a coordinated effort like a joint task force, Joe will go right into the cities with primary jurisdiction, fire off an email saying they’re going in, and perform raids in cities with their own police forces. The former Chief of Police of Mesa could stand him and publicly criticized Joe. He basically had his deputies going around cities where his department doesn’t have primary juridiction and looked for minor reasons to pull over someone, then perform immigration checks.

    http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-07-10/news/mesa-police-chief-george-gasc-n-stares-down-sheriff-joe-arpaio/

    I like how the Chief sent out his officers in force to “protect” Joe at a public appearance after Joe had received threats and protesters at other public appearances. They literally outnumbered Joe and his deputies.

  54. avatar
    y_p_w March 22, 2012 at 5:57 pm #

    jayHG: I don’t think that he can go to the U. S. Selective Service System in his capacity as sheriff doing an investigation and ask that they give him documents about anyone, least of all the President of the United States.

    I think his office or the posse can make a FOIA request like anyone else.

    I’m just hoping they SSS sends him a polite reply that between the lines says “eat this Fat Joe”, similar to the reply the Maricopa County Attorney sent to Orly.

  55. avatar
    Arthur March 22, 2012 at 7:14 pm #

    Uh-oh you Obots–Sherrif Joe is announcing a reprise of his press conference, and this time, it’s personal!

    According to ORYR,

    “Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio (l) and Cold Case Posse lead investigator Mike Zullo will hold a press conference on Saturday, March 31, at 1 p.m. at the Church on the Green to present their findings and updates regarding Obama’s fraudulent Selective Service System registration form and Certificate of Live Birth.

    “SURPRISE – While the media blackout continues over the largest story in American history, Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio is stunned, but undaunted, and said his Cold Case Posse will continue to pursue its investigation into President Barack Obama’s fraudulent Certificate of Live Birth as well as his Selective Service registration, both of which it has deemed forgeries.”

  56. avatar
    Sef March 22, 2012 at 7:45 pm #

    Arthur:
    Uh-oh you Obots–Sherrif Joe is announcing a reprise of his press conference, and this time, it’s personal!

    According to ORYR,

    “Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio (l) and Cold Case Posse lead investigator Mike Zullo will hold a press conference on Saturday, March 31, at 1 p.m. at the Church on the Green to present their findings and updates regarding Obama’s fraudulent Selective Service System registration form and Certificate of Live Birth.

    “SURPRISE – While the media blackout continues over the largest story in American history, Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio is stunned, but undaunted, and said his Cold Case Posse will continue to pursue its investigation into President Barack Obama’s fraudulent Certificate of Live Birth as well as his Selective Service registration, both of which it has deemed forgeries.”

    This time the press attending will probably know what questions to ask. Do they allow popcorn in the church?

  57. avatar
    y_p_w March 22, 2012 at 8:13 pm #

    Sef: This time the press attending will probably know what questions to ask. Do they allow popcorn in the church?

    Will they allow concealed weapons in the church?

    http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/hannah-kelly-pastors-daughter-at-grace-connection-church-accidentally-shot-on-church-grounds

  58. avatar
    Ageix March 22, 2012 at 8:17 pm #

    Majority Will: I hope they’re ridiculing this senseless birther bigot.

    Sadly, no. When they did an almost all show exposé on the March 1 curcus, I emailed them about it. Their reply was a couple of cut and paste paragraphs from Apuzzo. ’nuff said.

  59. avatar
    G March 22, 2012 at 8:48 pm #

    I suspect that there will be even less actual press that bother to show to this press conference as there was for the previous one. WND & Arpaio are trying to play the Boy Who Cried Wolf strategy….and that never works out too well.

    Their increasingly desperate attempts to get mass media attention for their smears are more likely to just continue to have the opposite effect and cause less and less people to even bother paying attention to them….except to laugh and shake their heads.

    Sef: This time the press attending will probably know what questions to ask. Do they allow popcorn in the church?

  60. avatar
    Arthur March 22, 2012 at 9:07 pm #

    Sef: Do they allow popcorn in the church?

    No, but they’ve got wine and crackers–bring your own cheese.

  61. avatar
    Thomas Brown March 22, 2012 at 9:26 pm #

    Arthur: No, but they’ve got wine and crackers–bring your own cheese.

    Of course, we already knew there’d be at least two kinds of crackers.

  62. avatar
    Arthur March 22, 2012 at 9:46 pm #

    Thomas Brown: Of course, we already knew there’d be at least two kinds of crackers.

    Good one!

  63. avatar
    Arthur March 22, 2012 at 9:52 pm #

    Sef: This time the press attending will probably know what questions to ask. Do they allow popcorn in the church?

    Church on the Green is an Assemblies of God congreation. They believe in speaking in tongues but not health care reform. Ideal church for birthers.

  64. avatar
    Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter March 22, 2012 at 10:13 pm #

    Well, this is weird. I am researching a SCOTUS case for a Internet Article about what law Corsi and Zullo may be violating, and one of the search thingies sent me here, even though the case isn’t mentioned here at all.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  65. avatar
    Arthur March 22, 2012 at 10:35 pm #

    Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter: Well, this is weird. I am researching a SCOTUS case for a Internet Article about what law Corsi and Zullo may be violating, and one of the search thingies sent me here, even though the case isn’t mentioned here at all.

    Blame it on Vodoo Ergonomics.

  66. avatar
    Northland10 March 22, 2012 at 11:17 pm #

    Arthur: No, but they’ve got wine and crackers–bring your own cheese.

    I am not sure slapping some Gouda on a communion wafer would be entirely wise. Squirting cheese whiz on it would get you excommunicated, even in the Episcopal Church. We do have standards when it comes to cheese. It might work better for those churches whose great mystery is the transformation of wine into Welch’s.

  67. avatar
    Arthur March 22, 2012 at 11:39 pm #

    I think that in an Assemblies of God church, communion wafer is probably considered a papist abomination.

  68. avatar
    J. Potter March 23, 2012 at 12:18 am #

    Arthur:
    I think that in an Assemblies of God church, communion wafer is probably considered a papist abomination.

    You better believe it is! In my experience, footwashing is more common than communion at Pentecostal / AoG churches. Communion is incredibly rare. The guilt-trip altar call is a must-have at every service tho. Talk about peer pressure and manipulation!

    Still hoping to see a good river baptism before I die.

  69. avatar
    y_p_w March 23, 2012 at 1:20 am #

    CarlOrcas: Sheriffs are constitutional officers in Arizona and they have a lot of latitude in running their offices. That said it’s obvious that the use of paid staff to handle PR puts the lie to the notion that the “investigation” cost the taxpayers nothing.

    While he theoretically has a wide latitude to perform law enforcement within Maricopa County, it’s highly unusual for a county sheriff’s department to run regular law enforcement operations in city limits where there is an operating police department. Joe goes out of his way to piss off the local police departments in his county.

    You should see the Sheriff of the City and County of San Francisco. Actually – he’s just been suspended. However, the department itself has no unincorporated areas to patrol. It just runs the jails, provides a civil bureau (mostly evictions), and provides security at city/county facilities like courts, city hall, and city hospitals. It sounds like a boring existence, but they don’t go running around town looking for people to arrest.

    Most law enforcement I know of with overlapping jurisdictions have well defined areas of responsibility. I am a graduate of UC Berkeley. Within the city limits, there are literally five (maybe even six or seven) different law enforcement agencies that have some sort of jurisdiction. The city police department has primary jurisdiction in the city outside of the campus. The UC Police (recently in the news) has primary jurisdiction on campus areas and university owned buildings off campus. The Alameda County Sheriff’s Dept has a bus transit police division that hangs out a lot in the downtown area looking for cars that illegally stop at bus stops to drop and pick up passengers. The fine is $250 (clearly marked on signs), and I swear that people still do it even when they tell drivers to move on. California Highway Patrol patrol the freeways and sometimes even city streets. BART Police (also have been in the news) can be seen in their cars. There’s a regional park district with its own police, and California State Parks has it’s own armed peace officers – they have a state park on the shoreline with some responsibility.

    The strange thing is that they all get along. They all agree to memorandums of understandings about who has what responsibility. The sheriff’s dept doesn’t go around looking for people jaywalking on city streets. The CHP doesn’t go around taking residential burglary calls. The city police doesn’t go on campus regularly. I believe when CHP has an incident like an officer involved shooting, they almost always leave it to the local county sheriff’s dept to perform the investigation.

    Sheriff Joe doesn’t seem to understand this. There are certain things which he just should lay off of because it’s really someone else’s responsibility. However, he can’t help using his office to scratch his itch even if he should stay far, far away from that sort of thing.

  70. avatar
    Expelliarmus March 23, 2012 at 2:56 am #

    Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter: Well, this is weird. I am researching a SCOTUS case for a Internet Article about what law Corsi and Zullo may be violating, and one of the search thingies sent me here, even though the case isn’t mentioned here at all.

    Google? Try doing the same search on a “clean” browser — that is, a different browser than the one you normally use, preferably opened in “stealth” mode. And if you have a gmail or other Google account, make sure you are logged out at the time.

    I think Google now aggregates all sorts of data associated with your usage, and delivers search results tailored to what it has figured out your preferences to be. That will tend to drive up sites you frequently visit in search results where they might be marginally relevant.

    Here’s an article that kind of explains it… but this article is 3 years old:
    http://searchengineland.com/google-now-personalizes-everyones-search-results-31195

    So the article describes the baby steps Google was taking in 1999. So now you’ve got the same thing going on, but supercharged & on steroids.

    Here’s one example: if I search for the phrase “birth certificate” while logged in… the first result is a link to:

    [PDF]
    The long-form birth certificate – The White House
    at http://www.whitehouse.gov

    2nd result is

    Where to Write for Vital Records – Homepage
    at cdc.gov

    But if I open up a new browser in stealth mode (lose the identifying info) – do the same search again, the top result is the cdc.gov — no link to Obama’s birth certificate at all.

    You can opt out of this, somewhere buried within the preferences you can set for yourself at Google. I haven’t because it is not quite as sinister as it seems — the truth is, the Google version that recognizes me and remembers what I’ve searched for and clicked on in the past makes it a lot easier for me to find what I’m looking for– if I found a web site once, I’m pretty sure to be able to find the same site again when I come looking a couple of weeks later.

    Anyway… that’s probably what happened in your case. It could be coincidence… but in this particular instance, the conspiracy theory is right — that is, the Google-rules-everything conspiracy.

  71. avatar
    donna March 23, 2012 at 9:11 am #

    Arpaio Cold Case Posse to hold second news conference on March 31st

    The TEA Parties hosting the event stated, “This will be an historic event in Arizona. Please come and be a part of history. The public is invited to attend. Come early. Learn the truth.”

    theobamafile.com

  72. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 23, 2012 at 9:32 am #

    As I commented elsewhere, MCSO has adopted a WorldNetDaily style steady-drip release of information in an attempt to grab news cycles, and they’ve done a pretty good job, relatively speaking, so far.

    donna: Arpaio Cold Case Posse to hold second news conference on March 31st

  73. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 23, 2012 at 9:39 am #

    I don’t believe that for a moment.

    Sef: This time the press attending will probably know what questions to ask.

  74. avatar
    JPotter March 23, 2012 at 9:56 am #

    y_p_w: Joe goes out of his way to piss off the local police departments in his county.

    Thanks for the insights, and the reminder that modern urban sheriffs are elected administrators. Our own sheriff is such; he runs the jail and provides service to the county court, and various state functions.

    Arpaio has watched too many Westerns. Saying he’s misplaced in time doesn’t cover it. I didn’t know the half of his dysfunction!

  75. avatar
    JPotter March 23, 2012 at 9:57 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: As I commented elsewhere, MCSO has adopted a WorldNetDaily style steady-drip release of information in an attempt to grab news cycles, and they’ve done a pretty good job, relatively speaking, so far.

    Gots to milk it. Will they play the theme from Rawhide at low volume in the background? It would be fitting. Keep them doggies movin’!

  76. avatar
    y_p_w March 23, 2012 at 10:29 am #

    JPotter: Thanks for the insights, and the reminder that modern urban sheriffs are elected administrators. Our own sheriff is such; he runs the jail and provides service to the county court, and various state functions.

    Well – that is the prime function that a sheriff’s dept in California and many other states covers. I mentioned San Francisco where the sheriff’s dept pretty much gets zero action that normal law enforcement does, unless it’s a mutual aid request.

    Sheriff Joe only wishes he had responsibility like the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Dept, which serves about half of the county’s cities (including Malibu) and is bigger than the Los Angeles Police Dept.

    His department is smaller than the Alameda County Sheriff’s office that I mentioned, and that county has half the population of Maricopa County. Joe is actually a small fish in a big pond, but he’s like a puffer that pretends to be bigger than he is.

    Also – every time I hear the name Maricopa, it sounds a lot like Mariposa, which is the name of a county and community in California near the entrance to Yosemite NP. That county has no cities, and the sheriff’s office there is the only local law enforcement in the entire county. Sheriff Joe might fit in better in a place like that, where he’s got nobody else to contend with. Except maybe the California Highway Patrol. Or National Park Service law enforcement rangers.

  77. avatar
    JPotter March 23, 2012 at 10:50 am #

    y_p_w: Or National Park Service law enforcement rangers.

    I am sure tehy would appreciate Arpaio’s unrequested and misguided attempts at forestry. He’d be cutting down all the trees and deporting them. For cash. Sadly, that would probably result in quicker federal action than dealing in people.

    Rogue country sheriffs are not unheard of. Arpaio is just the most spectacular. A more rural county here that i am familiar with, where the Sheriff has jurisdiction over most fo the county, lost it’s sheriff to the drug trade. Stuff happens.

  78. avatar
    Horus March 23, 2012 at 11:14 am #

    Scientist: Let’s pretend that everything Arpaio alleges is 100% Gospel truth (and pigs fly). Given that the alleged forged documents were Hawaiian and federal and that they were never used in Arizona (Arpaio has provide nothing to suggest they were), I cannot, for the life of me, see a crime that falls into the MCSO’s jurisdiction, And therefore, I cannot, for the life of me, see how using the resources of the MSCO to investigate a matter that is not a crime in their jurisdiction is not official misconduct by the Sheriff.

    It really has nothing to do with any actual crime, they could care less.
    No, what this is all about is smearing Obama before a major election.
    Hell, it was the EXACT same guy(Corsi) who did it to John Kerry!
    Why anyone believes him this time around is mind boggling.

  79. avatar
    Horus March 23, 2012 at 11:18 am #

    y_p_w: Well – that is the prime function that a sheriff’s dept in California and many other states covers. I mentioned San Francisco where the sheriff’s dept pretty much gets zero action that normal law enforcement does, unless it’s a mutual aid request.

    I know when I lived in New York county sheriffs had very little authority, mostly they were used for transporting prisoners.
    But here in Arizona they seem to have more power.

  80. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 23, 2012 at 11:29 am #

    y_p_w: Joe goes out of his way to piss off the local police departments in his county.

    Yes he does. Departments are always conducting investigations that cross jurisdictional lines (as opposed to responding to called for services) and most manage to do that without calling press conferences.

    y_p_w: You should see the Sheriff of the City and County of San Francisco

    I have seen it. SF is the only combined city/county in the state and has been since the mid 1800’s. That’s why you have a board of supervisors but no city council, etc.

    y_p_w: Sheriff Joe doesn’t seem to understand this. There are certain things which he just should lay off of because it’s really someone else’s responsibility. However, he can’t help using his office to scratch his itch even if he should stay far, far away from that sort of thing.

    Arpaio has been a political animal since the day he took office. There is a history of this sort of stuff in the MCSO but he has elevated it to an art form.

  81. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 23, 2012 at 11:31 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I don’t believe that for a moment

    Smart man. Surprise is 25 miles from downtown Phoenix and given that plus Saturday staffing at the paper and local TV stations Lord knows who or what will show up from the media.

  82. avatar
    y_p_w March 23, 2012 at 11:32 am #

    Horus: I know when I lived in New York county sheriffs had very little authority, mostly they were used for transporting prisoners.
    But here in Arizona they seem to have more power.

    The New York City Sheriff’s Department is the oldest law enforcement agency in the US and they don’t even have those duties. Apparently they haven’t run the jails since the 1940s. They basically do civil enforcement actions (evictions, property seizures, etc) and go around the city looking for vehicles to seize due to unpaid tickets.

  83. avatar
    JPotter March 23, 2012 at 11:38 am #

    CarlOrcas: Lord knows who or what will show up from the media.

    The Usual Suspects of course! Those the Tea Party and WND bus in. Maybe some overly curious local reporters who enjoy a good laugh.

  84. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 23, 2012 at 11:39 am #

    y_p_w: Well – that is the prime function that a sheriff’s dept in California and many other states covers. I mentioned San Francisco where the sheriff’s dept pretty much gets zero action that normal law enforcement does, unless it’s a mutual aid request.

    Actually field operations are the primary duty of most western sheriffs as opposed to those back east where there may be county or state police.

    Even in the most urbanized counties the sheriff still provides primary law enforcement to unincorporated areas and, particularly in California, to incorporated cities that contract with the sheriff for police services rather than operate their own police department.

    In less urbanized counties they may be the only law enforcement.

  85. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 23, 2012 at 11:43 am #

    Horus: I know when I lived in New York county sheriffs had very little authority, mostly they were used for transporting prisoners.
    But here in Arizona they seem to have more power.

    The thing to remember is that in many eastern states there may be county police and state police who have primary law enforcement duties.

    In the west sheriffs were there first and there are no county police (that I can think of off the top of my head) and except for a few no state police handling called for services.

  86. avatar
    y_p_w March 23, 2012 at 11:56 am #

    JPotter: y_p_w: Or National Park Service law enforcement rangers.

    I am sure tehy would appreciate Arpaio’s unrequested and misguided attempts at forestry. He’d be cutting down all the trees and deporting them. For cash. Sadly, that would probably result in quicker federal action than dealing in people.

    I think at most there might be one or two NPS units in Maricopa County, but not really major ones with large visitation. At least in California, federal law enforcement is required to get the written permission of police chiefs and/or sheriffs in order to enforce state or local laws. I’m wondering if Joe would cooperate like that with the Feds since they seem to have a great working relationship (or not). It probably wouldn’t be an issue with agencies like ICE that work primarily with federal violations, but FBI and Justice often help investigate tough local crimes. Still – most of Maricopa County is cities where nobody has to get Joe’s cooperation.

    It just occurred to me that Tonto National Forest runs through parts of Maricopa County. I looked it up, and apparently the Board of Supervisors made sure that the MCSO signed this agreement with the USDA.

    http://maricopa.gov/Clk_Board/Minutes/2006/100406fb.pdf

    DEPUTATION OF FOREST SERVICE OFFICERS

    Motion was made by Supervisor Wilson, seconded by Supervisor Brock, and unanimously carried (5-0) to approve the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Service, Southwestern Region, Law Enforcement & Investigations (Forest Service) and Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office (MCSO) to establish a framework for cooperation between the Forest Service and MCSO. The term of this MOU begins when both parties have signed the agreement and is effective through December 31, 2011 at which time it will expire unless extended. Approval of this Memorandum of Understanding will allow the deputation of Forest Service Officers and give them the authority granted pursuant to Title 16 United States Code, Sections 551a, 553, 559d(5), 559g(c) and A.R.S. 13-3875. It will allow the Forest Service Officers to take any constitutionally approved action within the authority of MCSO for violations in progress and will increase the protection of the public. (C5007021200)

    A lot of BLM land also runs through Maricopa County, and pretty much only in unincorporated areas where the MCSO is the only local law enforcement. I’m wondering how cooperative he’s going to be with the Feds now that they’re clamping down on him. It wouldn’t surprise me if Joe sent out his troops to perform actions on federal land where he doesn’t have primary authority.

  87. avatar
    y_p_w March 23, 2012 at 12:07 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Actually field operations are the primary duty of most western sheriffs as opposed to those back east where there may be county or state police.

    Even in the most urbanized counties the sheriff still provides primary law enforcement to unincorporated areas and, particularly in California, to incorporated cities that contract with the sheriff for police services rather than operate their own police department.

    In less urbanized counties they may be the only law enforcement.

    Los Angeles County has a huge department. They handle urban issues like auto thefts and gang violence. They serve in some of the nastiest parts of the county. The city of Compton disbanded their police dept and contracted with the sheriff’s dept.

    I don’t know of many counties that don’t have at least some incorporated cities with their own police, but there are a few.

  88. avatar
    JPotter March 23, 2012 at 12:09 pm #

    y_p_w: It just occurred to me that Tonto National Forest runs through parts of Maricopa County.

    I made a crack here about the lack of an AZ logging industry, really served up a fat one, but no one called me on it. AZ had a vibrant timber industry. Since federal regulation pretty much killed it 20 years ago, I expected a self-righteous birther to have a field day, tying it in with Obama’s socialism or whatever, depite a significant time difference (he was at Harvard at the time).

    Oh well.

  89. avatar
    y_p_w March 23, 2012 at 12:23 pm #

    JPotter: I made a crack here about the lack of an AZ logging industry, really served up a fat one, but no one called me on it. AZ had a vibrant timber industry. Since federal regulation pretty much killed it 20 years ago, I expected a self-righteous birther to have a field day, tying it in with Obama’s socialism or whatever, depite a significant time difference (he was at Harvard at the time).

    Oh well.

    I looked at pictures of Tonto National Forest. They’ve got ponderosa pine forests, but also a lot of desert areas with nothing but scrub brush and saguaros. The northern part of Arizona is still heavily forested – especially the areas surrounding the Grand Canyon.

    As for Sheriff Joe, I really wonder how all this stuff with the Feds is going to go down. Several federal land management agencies have holdings in unincorporated parts of Maricopa County, and they all need cooperation from Sheriff Joe to deputize their law enforcement officers. I mentioned the NPS, Forest Service, and BLM. There’s probably some national wildlife refuge in the county, so he’d have to work with the US Dept of Fish and Wildlife, which has armed officers.

    There are also several Indian reservations in the county, but I don’t think that the MCSO technically has jurisdiction. The Bureau of Indian Affairs wouldn’t have to work through Joe.

    If he refuses to cooperate, then I think the Board of Supervisors could force his hand, or maybe the state would force it.

  90. avatar
    Scientist March 23, 2012 at 12:26 pm #

    This is not a jurisdictional dispute between a local PD and a county sheriff about who should investigate a state crime. This is about whether, even if we believe every word Arpaio says, there is any Arizona crime at all. And if the answer is no, as I believe it is, then there shouldn’t be any investigation by any law enforcement agency. WND can print their garbage and “authors” can flog their “books”, but there is no role for any official agency.

  91. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 23, 2012 at 12:29 pm #

    y_p_w: Los Angeles County has a huge department. They handle urban issues like auto thefts and gang violence. They serve in some of the nastiest parts of the county. The city of Compton disbanded their police dept and contracted with the sheriff’s dept.

    Yes, the LASO is a very large department and they provide services in a wide variety of areas……from the Palos Verdes peninsula to West Hollywood and Malibu to some of the roughest areas in south central LA to East Los Angeles.

    In addition to unincorporated areas they handle about 40 cities on contract. My recollection is that they have the largest contingent of contract cities of any California sheriff.

  92. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 23, 2012 at 12:35 pm #

    y_p_w: Several federal land management agencies have holdings in unincorporated parts of Maricopa County, and they all need cooperation from Sheriff Joe to deputize their law enforcement officers

    I read the the thing from the board of supervisors and it doesn’t make much sense. The sheriff can’t “deputize” anyone. Only AZPost has the ability to confer peace officer powers and then only with authority from the legislature.

    There are some provisions in title 13 for granting peace officer powers to certified law enforcement officers from federal agencies and, in some cases, certified peace officers from other states…..like California HIghway Patrol officers who live in border cities like Yuma.

    y_p_w: There are also several Indian reservations in the county, but I don’t think that the MCSO technically has jurisdiction. The Bureau of Indian Affairs wouldn’t have to work through Joe.

    The reservations that surround metropolitan Phoenix have their own police departments with interesting mixes of authority.

  93. avatar
    Horus March 23, 2012 at 12:49 pm #

    y_p_w: I looked at pictures of Tonto National Forest. They’ve got ponderosa pine forests, but also a lot of desert areas with nothing but scrub brush and saguaros. The northern part of Arizona is still heavily forested – especially the areas surrounding the Grand Canyon.

    I love the northern part of the state, the high desert is gorgeous.
    I live in the hottest part of the state and would eventually like to buy a summer home in the northern part to escape the heat.
    It still amazes me how much the climate changes within a 2 hour drive from my home.

  94. avatar
    JPotter March 23, 2012 at 1:15 pm #

    Scientist: This is not a jurisdictional dispute between a local PD and a county sheriff about who should investigate a state crime.

    I think we all understand that very well, Scientist, just exploring the level of crazy that illuminates the good sheriff’s actions in this matter. He’s a bully and an egomaniac with no reagrd for procedure, law, decency, or reality. We’ve wondered off-topic, and visitors may be confused, but it’s informative, IMO.

  95. avatar
    y_p_w March 23, 2012 at 2:07 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I read the the thing from the board of supervisors and it doesn’t make much sense. The sheriff can’t “deputize” anyone. Only AZPost has the ability to confer peace officer powers and then only with authority from the legislature.
    There are some provisions in title 13 for granting peace officer powers to certified law enforcement officers from federal agencies and, in some cases, certified peace officers from other states…..like California HIghway Patrol officers who live in border cities like Yuma.

    I think it’s legitimate. They cited the statute (A.R.S. 13-3875), which I found from several databases.

    http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/03875.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS

    13-3875. Cross-certification of federal peace officers; policy; powers; qualifications; liability; records

    A. The sheriff of each county shall develop and adopt a policy on cross-certification of federal peace officers, including whether cross-certification shall be permitted in that county.

    B. A federal peace officer who is employed by an agency of the United States and who has completed the basic training curriculum for the officer’s agency shall possess and exercise all law enforcement powers of peace officers in this state for one year, including, if directed by the officer’s employer, the capability to enforce the criminal laws of this state if the federal peace officer:

    1. Submits to the sheriff a written request for certification as a peace officer in this state.

    2. Submits evidence that the officer has been certified as a federal peace officer, is authorized by federal law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation or prosecution of a violation of federal law and is authorized by federal law to make arrests, serve warrants and carry firearms.

    C. Each federal peace officer who requests cross-certification may submit to the sheriff a written request for certification as a peace officer in this state pursuant to subsection B. The cross-certification remains in effect for one year from the date on which the certification was authorized by the sheriff.

    D. Neither the state nor any political subdivision is liable for any acts or failure to act by a federal peace officer.

    E. The Arizona peace officer standards and training board shall maintain records of all federal peace officers who are certified as peace officers in this state.

    This is different than California. The California Penal Code sets out that federal law enforcement needs to get permission from the agency with primary juridiction – being local police and/or county sheriff’s – to enforce state or local laws. I know in the San Francisco Bay Area, National Park Service lands/offices are within the boundaries of three counties and perhaps up to 10 cities. They have a regional HQ in Oakland. US Park Police and NPS LE rangers patrol many of these areas. There’s also been controversy over the years. One case was of an NPS LE ranger off park land who arrested someone for pot possession (may be a federal violation?). The Marin County Sheriff’s Dept issued a statement that they did deputize the ranger, but only so he could enforce local/state laws on NPS property. He and his partner also pepper sprayed a few friends of the arrestee who asked him why they were arresting him. I think that was settled out of court. Recently NPS added a place that was popular with off-leash dog walkers and instituted new rules. Someone got hit with a Taser in the back as he was walking away from a ranger.

  96. avatar
    y_p_w March 23, 2012 at 3:43 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Yes, the LASO is a very large department and they provide services in a wide variety of areas……from the Palos Verdes peninsula to West Hollywood and Malibu to some of the roughest areas in south central LA to East Los Angeles.

    I remember the 2006 crash of a Ferrari Enzo in Malibu.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ferrari28feb28,0,3986184.story

    There were some copious quotes from the LASO. One article quoted a deputy as saying that a million dollar car bought a lot of physical protection in case of a crash.

  97. avatar
    G March 23, 2012 at 5:50 pm #

    *meh*

    I completely disagree. I think you are simply giving them far too much credit. I suspect you have simply lost sight of the key fact that you happen to be aware of the chatter in the fever swamps, simply because it is your hobby to pay attention to that particular echo chamber.

    But most of the world doesn’t consider our little hobby of paying attention to crazies to be worth even a moment of their time.

    In the first press conference with Arpaio, a decent amount of actual news reporters showed up and asked some very skeptical questions. The event got some minor coverage from the mainstream media, but all of it widely panned and mocked the event. It seems fairly clear that the mainstream media was less than impressed with wasting their time on this Dog & Pony show. Despite WND & Arpaio’s repeated desperate efforts, they haven’t been able to goad the mainstream media into biting any further on this.

    So, it truly is a “The Boy Who Cried Wolf” scenario we see developing here. I strongly suspect that even less mainstream media will bother to pay attention or report much on Arpaio’s next “press conference” at the end of the month. Any that do show up are likely to be even more skeptical and scathing in their coverage.

    WND’s “steady drip” technique is only backfiring on him & Arpaio here. The more they try to pull these shameless stunts, the less any credible source is willing to even entertain listening to them. Therefore, I think the Arpaio stunt at the beginning of the month only served to really make this avenue of propaganda DOA and has absolutely poisoned their future pursuits along this avenue.

    Really, the only folks who WND & Arpaio have succeed in getting to cover and talk about this stuff are the same rabid RW fever swamps that always wallow in conspiracy smear talk. I don’t see that changing at all. Nor is it any threat or surprise for these same predictable sources to be taking this bait and trying to run with it.

    Nor should any of us be worried that these crazies continue to chatter amongst themselves within the cozy walls of their own enclosed echo chambers.

    So of course it is worth monitoring them (especially for signs of incitement), but really, what net effect changes by them repeatedly reaching out and ending up only preaching to their own choir? NONE.

    I argue that the evidence shows that the disease of Birtherism has been effectively quarantined and that the mainstream has been inoculated.

    Dr. Conspiracy: As I commented elsewhere, MCSO has adopted a WorldNetDaily style steady-drip release of information in an attempt to grab news cycles, and they’ve done a pretty good job, relatively speaking, so far.

  98. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 23, 2012 at 6:39 pm #

    y_p_w: I think it’s legitimate. They cited the statute (A.R.S. 13-3875), which I found from several databases.

    My point was that the sheriff can’t just “deputize” people – like in the old westerns – without legal authority and then through AZPost.

  99. avatar
    y_p_w March 23, 2012 at 7:22 pm #

    CarlOrcas: My point was that the sheriff can’t just “deputize” people – like in the old westerns – without legal authority and then through AZPost.

    Sure. However, the law seems to state that there needs to be some sort of cooperation with county sheriff departments, and apparently AZPOST only has to serve as a record keeper of which federal law enforcement officers are certified in Arizona. I don’t know exactly what kind of detail is needed. It just say it’s up to the sheriff to decide if the feds can have that authority, and if they do they need to develop a policy.

    I know in California, the law is extremely vague about how detailed the process is. It just mentions “written consent” for most federal law enforcement. However, NPS rangers are specifically mentioned in a separate paragraph, and there is no specific requirement that they receive written permission from a local law enforcement agency (although I understand that this is the norm). I also noticed that they didn’t mention US Park Police, which has their western HQ in the Presidio of San Francisco, which became part of Golden Gate NRA in the mid-90s when the Army decommisioned it as HQ of the Sixth Army. Of course I’m thinking that parts of the law might predate the time when USPP moved in and might have been written before NPS law enforcement got their own shiny oversized badges rather than wearing the dinky littles ones that your average interepretive ranger wears.

    http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=830-832.17

    (b) Duly authorized federal employees who comply with the training
    requirements set forth in Section 832 are peace officers when they
    are engaged in enforcing applicable state or local laws on property
    owned or possessed by the United States government, or on any street,
    sidewalk, or property adjacent thereto, and with the written consent
    of the sheriff or the chief of police, respectively, in whose
    jurisdiction the property is situated.

    (c) National park rangers are not California peace officers but
    may exercise the powers of arrest of a peace officer as specified in
    Section 836 and the powers of a peace officer specified in Section
    5150 of the Welfare and Institutions Code for violations of state or
    local laws provided these rangers are exercising the arrest powers
    incidental to the performance of their federal duties or providing or
    attempting to provide law enforcement services in response to a
    request initiated by California state park rangers to assist in
    preserving the peace and protecting state parks and other property
    for which California state park rangers are responsible. National
    park rangers, prior to the exercise of these arrest powers, shall
    have been certified by their agency heads as having satisfactorily
    completed the training requirements of Section 832.3, or the
    equivalent thereof.

  100. avatar
    Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter March 23, 2012 at 7:36 pm #

    I did a Internet Article on the code and training. The posse guys are law enforcement officers. I have some questions about liability, but note some of them are permitted to carry firearms, and drive sheriff’s cars and make arrests.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  101. avatar
    Montana Wildhack March 23, 2012 at 7:39 pm #

    donna:
    Arpaio Cold Case Posse to hold second news conference on March 31st

    The TEA Parties hosting the event stated, “This will be an historic event in Arizona. Please come and be a part of history. The public is invited to attend. Come early. Learn the truth.”

    theobamafile.com

    And notice that it is NOT being held on County property.

  102. avatar
    Montana Wildhack March 23, 2012 at 7:47 pm #

    donna:
    Arpaio Cold Case Posse to hold second news conference on March 31st

    The TEA Parties hosting the event stated, “This will be an historic event in Arizona. Please come and be a part of history. The public is invited to attend. Come early. Learn the truth.”

    theobamafile.com

    And notice that it is NOT being held on County property.

    Horus: It still amazes me how much the climate changes within a 2 hour drive from my home.

    I admit I definately miss being able to soak up the sun by the pool at 8am then be skiing on Mt. Lemmon by 9:30am. Even if I can’t ski for poop.

  103. avatar
    Keith March 23, 2012 at 7:48 pm #

    Oops, foiled by the back button.

  104. avatar
    Keith March 23, 2012 at 7:57 pm #

    y_p_w: However, the law seems to state that there needs to be some sort of cooperation with county sheriff departments, and apparently AZPOST only has to serve as a record keeper of which federal law enforcement officers are certified in Arizona.

    As I understand it, AZPOST doesn’t even have to ‘certify’ the Sheriff. The Sheriff is an elected official meant to serve as an administrator, not as a peace officer.

    As it happens, Sheriff Joe is actually a ‘certified’ LEO in his prior career, but not all Arizona Sheriffs are or have been. If I recall correctly, the Pima County Sheriff in the 60’s was not. Of course the current Pima County Sheriff (Clarence Dupnik) is the poster boy for the ‘good Sherrif’ just as the current Maricopa County Sheriff is the poster boy for the ‘bad Sheriff’. Like night and day, those two.

  105. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 23, 2012 at 8:35 pm #

    y_p_w: Sure. However, the law seems to state that there needs to be some sort of cooperation with county sheriff departments, and apparently AZPOST only has to serve as a record keeper of which federal law enforcement officers are certified in Arizona. I don’t know exactly what kind of detail is needed

    I believe the law says they have to demonstrate that they have specific training from their agency.

  106. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 23, 2012 at 8:40 pm #

    Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter: I did a Internet Article on the code and training. The posse guys are law enforcement officers. I have some questions about liability, but note some of them are permitted to carry firearms, and drive sheriff’s cars and make arrests.

    Squeeky,

    Posse members are not peace officers. They have no powers of arrest beyond those of the ordinary citizen. Some are allowed to carry guns…..but then anyone can carry a gun (openly or concealed) in Arizona.

    Many posse members do drive department vehicles or vehicles with department lettering. The Sun City Posses are the best examples in that regard.

    The only people who can make arrests are regular employed deputies and certified reserve deputies.

    And, yes, there are lots of questions obout the liability posses create for themselves and the county.

  107. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 23, 2012 at 8:52 pm #

    Keith: As I understand it, AZPOST doesn’t even have to certify’ the Sheriff. The Sheriff is an elected official meant to serve as an administrator, not as a peace officer.

    The sheriff is a constitutional officer (mentioned specifically in the administrative code that deals with counties) and hence is not required to be certified by AZPost but he (or she) is definitely a peace officer. AZPost deals with it on their website, as I recall.

    Keith: As it happens, Sheriff Joe is actually a certified’ LEO in his prior career, but not all Arizona Sheriffs are or have been. If I recall correctly, the Pima County Sheriff in the 60′s was not.

    Arizona didn’t start certifying peace officers until the late 60’s.

    Arpaio worked for the old BNDD (Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs) now the Drug Enforcement Administration and, as I recall had retired long before ran for sheriff. In any case….as noted several times…..as a constitutional officer he is not subject to the requirements for certifiication as a peace officer.

  108. avatar
    y_p_w March 23, 2012 at 8:53 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I believe the law says they have to demonstrate that they have specific training from their agency.

    Yeah – but that’s pretty basic though. Most federal law enforcement send their officers to FLETC. I’m thinking they just submit a copy (long-form of course) of their graduation record, and a letter from their supervisor about their duties and authorization to make arrests and carry a firearm.

    Of course that makes sense for someone who is assigned to a specific area in Arizona. I’m wondering how they handle it if it’s someone like an FBI Special Agent brought in from another district for a specific reason. In California, any federal law enforcement officer who is brought in via a request of a state or local law enforcement agency can make arrests for state or local laws, and isn’t required to receive specific written authorization.

  109. avatar
    y_p_w March 23, 2012 at 9:11 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Arpaio worked for the old BNDD (Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs) now the Drug Enforcement Administration and, as I recall had retired long before ran for sheriff. In any case….as noted several times…..as a constitutional officer he is not subject to the requirements for certifiication as a peace officer.

    Sounds a bit different than what we have here in California. Here, a candidate for sheriff must have passed POST advanced certification. The currently suspended Sheriff of San Francisco actually did. He used to be an investigator with the San Francisco DA’s office, and graduated from the San Francisco Police Academy to satisfy the requirement for him to carry a weapon. I found an article that a guy who wanted to run for Orange County Sheriff in 1990 couldn’t because of a 1988 law that required candidates to have a current POST certification. He was a former US Treasury officer and a police officer, but didn’t have a current certification and didn’t have the time to get it with a full-time job.

    http://articles.latimes.com/1990-03-09/local/me-2374_1_years-law-enforcement-experience

  110. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 23, 2012 at 9:37 pm #

    y_p_w: Sounds a bit different than what we have here in California

    Yes…it’s different. Here’s the relevant section from Title 13 of the Arizona Revised Statutes:

    R13-4-103. Certification of Peace Officers

    A. Certified status mandatory. A person who is not certified by the Board or whose certified status is inactive shall not function as a peace officer or be assigned the duties of a peace officer by an agency, except as provided in subsection (B).

    B. Sheriffs are exempt from the requirement of certified status.

  111. avatar
    Winston Court March 24, 2012 at 3:57 pm #

    HOW CAN I EXAMINE OBAMA’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND KNOW IT IS A FRAUD?
    You will need a few things:

    1) A copy of the fraudulent birth certificate, directly from the whitehouse website:
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-long-form.pdf

    1a.) You will also need Adobe Reader to open the web file, and download/save it to your hard drive:
    http://get.adobe.com/reader

    2) A free trial copy of Adobe Illustrator:
    http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/tdrc/index.cfm?product=illustrator
    (this will allow you to open the birth certificate with software which is capable of displaying the layers, accurately, and allowing the fraud to be seen in detail.)

    3) Arpaio’s full video report, to show you a few things to look for. It discusses important evidence of fraud:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1wiGDYPALI
    (duplicating the demonstrations, with the tools given above, will allow you to do much of the same investigation Arapio’s team did.)

    4) Tom Harrison’s report on defects/artifacts in birth certificate, proving fraud:
    http://www.wnd.com/files/2011/07/110726whitedots.pdf
    (following Tom’s guide, you will be able to see that that obama’s birth certificate is an ABSOLUTE FRAUD!)

    The web is also full of other inconsistencies and evidence of the fraud, mismatched type imported from other documents, mixed, modern day computer type with 1961 typewriter type, etc.

    There is little doubt that the birth certificate is a fraud (but, hey, if obama can explain the posting of a fraudulent document to the whitehouse website — and how he became so confused as to think it is his birth certificate, I will listen.) And, one must wonder why a criminal is being allowed to remain in the public servant office of president. There are obvious problems with a criminal occupying the office of president, one is the military being unable to follow unlawful orders, since a criminal issuing orders from the whitehouse, and acting as commander in chief would be unlawful, all of his orders would be unlawful, and the military would be unable to act, lawfully, on such orders.

    Also, any and all actions, bill, laws, executive orders, decisions, etc. would be unlawful, illegal, unbinding and without validity — if done by an illegal and criminally treasonous president. As more and more American citizens wake up to these truths, there is only one way to accurately describe the situation we are in, or simply, “WE ARE IN DEEP DUDU!”

    And remember, while Angels may have halos, birth certificates DON’T! (you will learn about this while examing the materials, above.)

  112. avatar
    G March 24, 2012 at 5:48 pm #

    Your list only needed 2 entries, as follows:

    1. Start with a pre-conceived irrational hatred of Obama and a desperate desire to imagine any possible scenario in which you can pretend he isn’t “really” the President.

    2. Ignore all facts, evidence and reality. Especially that the HI DOH officials fully certify and back up his document as being the real deal.

    Winston Court: HOW CAN I EXAMINE OBAMA’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND KNOW IT IS A FRAUD?
    You will need a few things:

  113. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 24, 2012 at 7:27 pm #

    Winston Court: You will need a few things

    How about starting with an open mind?

    Just a thought. If you can’t find yours you might want to check with the Scarecrow.

  114. avatar
    Thomas Brown March 24, 2012 at 8:00 pm #

    W.C.: EVERY SINGLE “ANOMALY” YOU CLAIM AS PROOF OF FRAUD IS UTTERLY NORMAL. It is purely laughable that you buy each one as rock-solid evidence. This has garbage has been de-bunked a hundred times.

    Wake up and smell the con game. You’ve been duped.

  115. avatar
    Winston Court March 25, 2012 at 12:26 pm #

    CarlOrcas: irrational

    Oh really?

    Was Hawaiian Governor Abercrombie ever able to find a real birth certificate?
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1348916/Hawaii-governor-says-Obamas-birth-record-exists-produce-it.html

    And, did anyone ever get Tim Adams to admit to a mistake?
    http://state-of-the-nation.com/5571/tim-adams-signs-affidavit-government-official-hawaii-find-longform-birth-certificate-senator-obama-issued-hawaii-hospital-time-birth/

    And, coupled with the evidence of the birth certificate:

    [Please stop advertising your web site with every message. Doc.]

    … now the Selective Service Card, etc., honest American citizens should accept nothing less than a congressional investigation into the evidence which seems to prove FRAUD by obama, or parties he engaged to commit the fraud for him … no point in arguing any further — it is past all of that, this matter needs to be resolved by a full blown federal investigation(s.)

  116. avatar
    Paper March 25, 2012 at 1:29 pm #

    Better yet, resolved by a good nap.

    Winston Court: … no point in arguing any further — it is past all of that, this matter needs to be resolved by a full blown federal investigation(s.)

  117. avatar
    Paper March 25, 2012 at 1:44 pm #

    You may have noticed a LFBC was released. It’s been a long time since the lie was passed around that Abercrombie couldn’t find the b.c. records. Update your make-believe.

    As for Tim Adams, no need to get him to admit a mistake. Pretending the LFBC wasn’t released, Adams still didn’t say anything worth the effort. It doesn’t matter whether or not hearsay is accurate or mistaken; it is irrelevant. If you want to expend your energies to go and prove that there actually is something real behind the hearsay (notice I say behind the hearsay, not whether or not someone said such things), then go for it. We’ll wait for you to get something real. No rush, take your time.

    Winston Court:

    Was Hawaiian Governor Abercrombie ever able to find a real birth certificate?
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1348916/Hawaii-governor-says-Obamas-birth-record-exists-produce-it.html

    And, did anyone ever get Tim Adams to admit to a mistake?
    http://state-of-the-nation.com/5571/tim-adams-signs-affidavit-government-official-hawaii-find-longform-birth-certificate-senator-obama-issued-hawaii-hospital-time-birth/

  118. avatar
    G March 25, 2012 at 1:46 pm #

    *yawn*

    Desperately trying to trot out a bunch of long-debunked myths and misquotes, I see.

    You are your article are completely misrepresenting and lying about what Abercrombie ever actually said & did. That has ALL been thoroughly covered and debunked on here long ago.

    So here is the list of article citations on here that has already addressed that issue:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/category/whoswho/neil-abercrombie/

    Winston Court: Oh really?
    Was Hawaiian Governor Abercrombie ever able to find a real birth certificate?

    Same thing with your trotting out the made up stories of the low level temp, Tim Adams. That has all been looked into and debunked as well:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/category/whoswho/tim-adams/

    Winston Court: And, did anyone ever get Tim Adams to admit to a mistake?

    Yeah, no point in arguing any further, since you seem incapable of discussing anything here that hasn’t been throroughly debunked a long time ago. If you are too terminally susceptible to falling for lies and internet rumours, that is your own problem.

    Everything you are ranting about has already been addressed and rehashed here numerous times. The index of this website is an easy source to reference these answers on your own.

    So, learn to read for yourself before you spout off silly lies that have already been addressed. But then you aren’t here for honest answers anyways and are just desperate to troll your lies and plug your pathetic website.

    Winston Court: … now the Selective Service Card, etc., honest American citizens should accept nothing less than a congressional investigation into the evidence which seems to prove FRAUD by obama, or parties he engaged to commit the fraud for him … no point in arguing any further — it is past all of that , this matter needs to be resolved by a full blown federal investigation(s.)

  119. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 25, 2012 at 1:58 pm #

    The prisons are full of people who have been proven to have committed crimes who do not admit their mistakes. We’ve had numerous birthers who have been proven wrong in argument here, but they don’t admit their mistakes. It’s a character flaw, not evidence of anything.

    Tim Adams told various versions of his story including that he was not a racist, even after racist remarks by him were found online. He backtracked on some of his claims. However, the central problem with Tim Adams’ story is that he makes claims about hospital records and Department of Health records that neither he, nor anyone in his office had access to.

    The are various theories about what Adams was up to, but there is no question as to the fact that he had no way of knowing what he claimed to know.

    Winston Court: And, did anyone ever get Tim Adams to admit to a mistake?

  120. avatar
    Paper March 25, 2012 at 2:04 pm #

    This area is one thing I felt was still up in the air, though I never cared to resolve it. I mean, he said that wasn’t him online. I don’t remember seeing anything proving it was him (more than just assumption, likely or otherwise). But with all things Adama, it just seemed irrelevant to the point.

    Dr. Conspiracy: even after racist remarks by him were found online.

  121. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 25, 2012 at 2:15 pm #

    My recollection is that they comments were by him, but he claimed that they weren’t racist. Adams was on RC’s radio show and he was confronted by that material on the show. You can listen to it if you’re interested.

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/rcr/2011/04/01/reality-check-radio

    Paper: This area is one thing I felt was still up in the air, though I never cared to resolve it. I mean, he said that wasn’t him online. I don’t remember seeing anything proving it was him (more than just assumption, likely or otherwise). But with all things Adama, it just seemed irrelevant to the point.

  122. avatar
    Paper March 25, 2012 at 2:37 pm #

    I listened to the show at the time, and followed up a bit doing some Google research on this issue. At the moment, I recall he claimed the racist ones weren’t him. I remember the one woman (whose internet handle I don’t recall right now, but she was the one who researched and pushed him on it) made a big point of it, and others seemed to concur, but it struck me as undetermined that it was him. I remember it because it struck me as one of the few type of moments where I get itchy about such claims, even with certain commentators who generally I find reliable. I was losing a bit of rapport, so to speak, with the group on the radio program at that moment, you might say.

    Just to benchmark my sense here: Rachel Maddow was talking about the Georgia birther case back at the time, finding it incredible that the judge issued a subpoena for the President to appear. Well, we know he didn’t really do that. Orly Taitz did, using a pre-printed form, and the judge merely didn’t quash it, which is a different matter.

    I felt the same way about the Adams racist accusations. Now, it’s just an itch that comes up when I read about it here or on Fogbow. I just remember not getting resolution. I was kind of hoping you might have a more definitive reference. The problem is I don’t care enough to go make an extra effort to rehash it now, because whatever he says is irrelevant in the first place, whether or not he is racist. I don’t really need to know his motives to know he has nothing to offer.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    My recollection is that they comments were by him, but he claimed that they weren’t racist. Adams was on RC’s radio show and he was confronted by that material on the show. You can listen to it if you’re interested.

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/rcr/2011/04/01/reality-check-radio

  123. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 25, 2012 at 3:25 pm #

    Winston Court: CarlOrcas: irrational
    Oh really?

    Well….I didn’t use the word “irrational” but I think it’s right on the mark when it comes to your post of yesterday.

    I’m not going to waste everyone’s time going through your messages They are long answered and debunked but I doubt that will make any different to you.

  124. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 25, 2012 at 3:33 pm #

    I went back and listened to the segment. Adams never denied making the comments. He started out saying something like “I said that?” and “when did I say that?”. The only thing he denied was being the same person as “Brian” online, but when confronted with same posts on the same day by “Brian” and Adams MySpace page, Adams then started saying that the comments were not racist. He affirmed the remark “Ghetto paradise” (racist or not) and when other quotes were thrown at him he said things like “Isn’t that true?”

    My original impression and my impression today is that Adams started out evading, then tried to deny being the person who said the things, and finally gave up on that and began defending the comments as not racist.

    I applaud your sensitivity to unproven allegations being cited as facts. I wish everybody was like that. However, if I had to sit on a jury and decide based on that radio broadcast, I would confidently conclude that Adams said the things he was accused of saying on the program.

    Paper: I listened to the show at the time, and followed up a bit doing some Google research on this issue. At the moment, I recall he claimed the racist ones weren’t him. I remember the one woman (whose internet handle I don’t recall right now, but she was the one who researched and pushed him on it) made a big point of it, and others seemed to concur, but it struck me as undetermined that it was him. I remember it because it struck me as one of the few type of moments where I get itchy about such claims, even with certain commentators who generally I find reliable. I was losing a bit of rapport, so to speak, with the group on the radio program at that moment, you might say.

  125. avatar
    Rickey March 25, 2012 at 4:36 pm #

    Tim Adams also reportedly was an attendee at the 2010 Council of Conservative Citizens National Conference. The Council of Conservative Citizens is described by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) as a “white supremacist” “hate group,” and by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) as having a “white supremacy, white separatism” ideology.

    http://mediamatters.org/blog/201006140017

  126. avatar
    Reality Check March 25, 2012 at 4:37 pm #

    Some fine folks at the Fogbow created a full transcript of the RC Radio show with Tim Adams. Mimi’s call starts on page 67. I think it is quite clear that Adams wrote what Mimi quoted. It is linked in this blog post: http://rcradioblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/rc-radio-march-31-timothy-adams/

  127. avatar
    Reality Check March 25, 2012 at 4:39 pm #

    Correct, that is where Adams first made his claims on a radio show called “The Political Cesspool”.

    Rickey: Tim Adams also reportedly was an attendee at the 2010 Council of Conservative Citizens National Conference.

  128. avatar
    Paper March 25, 2012 at 6:59 pm #

    Thanks, RC. I actually sent that transcript back at that time to my birther family members to make a different point about Tim Adams.

    And thanks Dr. C for taking the time to review and update your perspective on T. A.’s comments.

    After reviewing the transcript, I remain unconvinced, or at least not eager to join the consensus. Rereading it, I still find the questioning on the point of racism inadequate.

    He outright denies he is Brian Johnson. He may be, but he denies it.

    Then there is that confused riff, but basically that strikes me as him being coy and playing the cat to what he perceived as your mouse, namely that to him you were proving his point, that someone talking about corruption, say in Chicago, ends up being called racist as a way of dismissing their more salient points. The reference to Hebrew slave and white woman in Alaska is harsh, but purposely so it seems to make the point, and is part of the frame, whereby he says “Isn’t that the state of public discourse? Any criticism of Obama has to be based on race?”

    I think his comments about Hawaiin natives are offensive, but I don’t find what he actually says as racist as much as insufferably pretentious. The idea that isolation reduces a specie’s or group’s competitiveness is not particularly radical. I think it is unclear that he holds that *against* the Hawaiians just because he uses pretentious language that he thinks is evocative but is just sloppy.

    Perhaps he is sloppy because he is racist, or skirts the edges, or because he is just too coy for his own good, or …

    His evasiveness could be because he is a racist, or just because he thinks he is talking to fools who are proving his points. Knowing some birthers quite closely, I find myself hearing the latter in his voice much more than the former.

    In the end, I just don’t think there is anything there that catches him out as such in a way that makes it worth calling him a racist, rather than just foolish. I think that caloing him a racist just muddies the waters on the much clearer point of his incompetence.

    I think we can agree on his incompetence in these matters, and I can respect how you would be more than ready to just call him out. At the very least, he plays foolish, stupid games. He’s not really worth my time, much less my defending him on anything.

    Reality Check:
    Some fine folks at the Fogbow created a full transcript of the RC Radio show with Tim Adams. Mimi’s call starts on page 67. I think it is quite clear that Adams wrote what Mimi quoted. It is linked in this blog post: http://rcradioblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/rc-radio-march-31-timothy-adams/

  129. avatar
    Paper March 25, 2012 at 7:15 pm #

    I suppose if I were on such an imaginary jury, I might be inclined to say he could be, but that I didn’t think the prosecution proved its case.

    Be that as it may, I don’t need to spend time on Tim Adams. I have to deal with real live birthers. That is enough penance for one life.

    Dr. Conspiracy:

    … if I had to sit on a jury and decide based on that radio broadcast, I would confidently conclude that Adams said the things he was accused of saying on the program.

  130. avatar
    y_p_w March 26, 2012 at 1:03 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Yes…it’s different. Here’s the relevant section from Title 13 of the Arizona Revised Statutes:R13-4-103. Certification of Peace OfficersA. Certified status mandatory. A person who is not certified by the Board or whose certified status is inactive shall not function as a peace officer or be assigned the duties of a peace officer by an agency, except as provided in subsection (B). B. Sheriffs are exempt from the requirement of certified status.

    Well – in California, any federal law enforcement legally isn’t considered a “California Peace Officer”. The federal law enforcement training received isn’t quite the same, although I’d think it’s equivalent to some degree.

    Local law enforcement can agree to allow other agencies the right to exercise “peace officer authority” or to make arrests, but they’re not considered “peace officers” per se. There are some university security departments where city or county law enforcement has authorized their officers to have limited arrest powers. The Golden Gate Bridge Patrol are public employees, but legally are just security guards with limited arrest powers granted by San Francisco Police and the Marin County Sheriff’s Dept. There is one private security force where the employees are legally deputized as legal peace officers. Stanford University’s Dept of Public Safety has armed officers. They have a MOU with the Santa Clara County Sheriff’s Dept to deputize their officers, who are legally referred to as “Stanford Reserves” by the department. While they’re paid by the University, they have to receive POST certification like any other peace officer in California.

  131. avatar
    CarlOrcas March 26, 2012 at 2:04 pm #

    y_p_w: Well – in California, any federal law enforcement legally isn’t considered a “California Peace Officer”.

    I didn’t say they were. What I was noting is the Arizona statute, 13-4-103(b), that says :”Sheriffs are exempt from the requirement of certified status.”

    That means Arpaio has peace officer powers without being certified by AZPost.

  132. avatar
    y_p_w March 26, 2012 at 2:57 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I didn’t say they were. What I was noting is the Arizona statute, 13-4-103(b), that says :”Sheriffs are exempt from the requirement of certified status.”That means Arpaio has peace officer powers without being certified by AZPost.

    I’m just noting that the definition of “peace officer” isn’t consistent from state to state. Arizona obviously has a mechanism in place where federal LE are legally considered to be as such for one year terms. You also noted the loophole for the elected guy in charge. I remember the scene in National Lampoon’s Vacation where the Griswolds just got scammed by a local mechanic (probably somewhere in Arizona, as they just left the Grand Canyon) who is charging an extortionary price to fix their station wagon because they have other no means to get out. When he threatens him by saying if his local sheriff would like to know about the operation he’s running, the mechanic just flips out a badge indicating that he’s also the county sheriff.

    At least in California, the county sheriff has to be certified. It wasn’t the case before, when interested parties would run and get elected even if they had no law enforcement background, or when they were experienced law enforcement who had been retired for a few years and didn’t keep up their training.

    There are a lot of things people don’t really think of. For one, there’s no requirement that a Supreme Court Justice be an attorney. Nor an Attorney General in a some states. I remember when Jerry Brown ran for Attorney General of California, he renewed his law license that he’d let expire sometime in the 60s. I don’t think he legally had to, but he decided to do it. I’ve alread read op-ed pieces suggesting that perhaps there should be a nominee to the Supreme Court who isn’t an attorney.