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Pixelation is normal: Cold Case Posse lied

A commenter here was pointing out that when you zoom in the PDF file of Barack Obama’s birth certificate, part of the doctor’s signature is solid black, and some of it appears pixelated. They say it’s a sign of forgery. I say it’s just how PDF optimization and display works.

While one may argue arcane topics like Adaptive Optimization and MRC compression, there is a much more straightforward approach. Take a birth certificate, scan it and look at the result.

That’s what I did. In this case I took my own long form birth certificate from Alabama, scanned it to a JPG file at 600 ppi, opened the file in Adobe Acrobat Standard 9.5.0 and converted it to PDF, and they ran the Optimize Scanned PDF1 option. I opened it in Adobe Reader, zoomed in, and looked at it. Here’s a screen shot of what I saw:

image

You see black and white solid parts, and pixelated gray parts, just like the Obama certificate. This doesn’t take any special graphic expertise, just a $69 scanner and a copy of Acrobat. Birthers are hereby completely debunked on this topic and anyone who continues to raise partial pixelation as on objection to the authenticity of Obama’s birth certificate has no excuse.

Now here’s my point. Any fool can do what I did. And certainly any competent forensic document examiner would know this as a matter of course. Only incompetence or lying can explain Mara Zebest writing in the Arizona Cold Case Posse official report describing this perfectly normal artifact of scanning a real document as “an inconsistency that occurs with image manipulation” and “a color scan would produce anti-aliased results universally.” Following is her commentary in context, which is utter BS (click to enlarge).

image

Is the Cold Case Posse lying about the expected result, or are they lying when they claim they know what they are talking about? In any case, this example points out loud and clear that the Cold Case Posse’s results are crap, nothing but crap, and anyone who believes that theirs is a competent professional investigation is a fool.


1After preparing the sample image for this article, I scanned my certificate again using Acrobat Standard to scan, but did not run the separate optimization step. It turns out that Acrobat generates anti-aliased/pixelated and B&W regions without an explicit optimization step when scanning from inside the program.

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186 Responses to Pixelation is normal: Cold Case Posse lied

  1. avatar
    realist April 1, 2012 at 3:05 pm #

    “Is the Cold Case Posse lying about the expected result, or are they lying when they claim their results were vetted by forensic document examiners?”

    Both.

    Plus they’re lying about doing any investigation, as nothing they’ve said/published is anything other than WND/Corsi crap that’s been “out there'” and completely debunked since long before they began their “Swiftboating” operation.

    We already knew Arpaio and Corsi were liars, and now Zullo is confirmed.

  2. avatar
    Jamese777 April 1, 2012 at 3:07 pm #

    It continues to surprise me that so many people seem not to know the difference between a copy of a document and an original document.

    The only birth certificate and birth record data for Barack Obama that matters is the hard copy and data on that hard copy which is on file at the Hawaii Department of Health.

    Scanned images of photocopies of the original, vault copy document are irrelevant.

  3. avatar
    Thrifty April 1, 2012 at 3:08 pm #

    Obviously Doc was born in Norway and has presented a forged birth certificate. Everyone knows that a feature exists on Barack Obama’s birth certificate, that feature is an indication of forgery. Therefore any other document with that feature is also forged.

  4. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 1, 2012 at 3:25 pm #

    I regret that the pink background on the Alabama certificate doesn’t scan very well, or the image would have been a little more dramatic.

  5. avatar
    nbc April 1, 2012 at 3:40 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I regret that the pink background on the Alabama certificate doesn’t scan very well, or the image would have been a little more dramatic.

    I agree. It would be great to have a document similar to the one the DOH released to Obama and see what happens.

    The Cold Case Posse’s assertions about the jpeg/bitmap separation is indeed trivially explained by Mixed Raster Compression. What is even more interesting is that when you compare the scanned document with the AP photocopy to see how the latter one appears to not have the same artifact.

    Sad how these so-called ‘experts’ have missed all the tell-tale signs. But this is just one example of several ‘oversights’ on their part.

  6. avatar
    Obsolete April 1, 2012 at 3:51 pm #

    I keep telling the birthers who scream “forgery!” to simply open any similar PDF in Illustrator and see the layers themselves. No scanning or expertise required.
    Yet they won’t do this- I wonder why?

  7. avatar
    nbc April 1, 2012 at 3:53 pm #

    Our friend Yutube left as well with his tail between his legs when informed about Mixed Raster Compression.

  8. avatar
    Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter April 1, 2012 at 4:06 pm #

    Pixilation is normal, true dat. But still, one should try to keep it a minimum, perhaps on weekends only.

    Hic.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  9. avatar
    Scientist April 1, 2012 at 4:33 pm #

    “Lying” is such a strong word. I prefer to look at it this way: This is an exercise in post-modern philosophy. In effect, we must all acknowledge that any image is not the real object. Hence all computer documents and images are false, in that they are not the real object. That image of Doc at the top of the page is not the good Doctor himmself, but merely a collection of pixels that bears the appearance of Doc C. In that sense, a birth certificate is not a birth nor a person,, but merely ink on paper. Translate that to pixels and we are yet one step further removed. So Barack Obama’s birth certificate is not the President, nor his birth in Hawaii, only a state-sanctioned representation thereof. As money is simply strings of 1s and 0s passing through fiber-optic cables, yet I can use them to buy a bottle of wine at the liiquor store. Amazing, no? Think of this-if I visit the Louvre take a photo of the Mona Lisa it is in some senses a forgery, because it is not the actual daViinci itself, but merely a representation. The same with a pdf or jpg of the President’s birth certificate. But that doesn’t mean that his certificate isn’t just as real as the painting on the wall in Paris.

    Joe Arpaio, may be a simple goon and corrupt cop in his regular job, but his posse persona is wearing a black beret and smoking Gauloises in a cafe on the Left Bank…

    Happy, April, all

  10. avatar
    y_p_w April 1, 2012 at 5:19 pm #

    nbc: I agree. It would be great to have a document similar to the one the DOH released to Obama and see what happens.

    I’ve been trying to get a few sheets of the Simpson Security Papers DesignSecure basketweave green – product #72338.

    One could print a document on a sheet – preferably a photocopy of high-quality scan of a document typed with a manual typewriter. Then run it through a scanner to see what happens.

  11. avatar
    y_p_w April 1, 2012 at 5:22 pm #

    Jamese777: It continues to surprise me that so many people seem not to know the difference between a copy of a document and an original document.

    The only birth certificate and birth record data for Barack Obama that matters is the hard copy and data on that hard copy which is on file at the Hawaii Department of Health.

    Scanned images of photocopies of the original, vault copy document are irrelevant.

    Doesn’t matter. Legally a proper scan+printout or photocopy of the original document is a useful document as long as it carries the seal of the Hawaii Dept of Health.

    I haven’t seen the original document I signed around the time of my kid’s birth. However, I’ve managed to use it many times in an official capacity. Once was even with a photocopy of a certified birth certificate. As long as it contain’s a “registrar’s” signature, it was legally useful.

  12. avatar
    Sef April 1, 2012 at 5:50 pm #

    If the scan had been left as a JPEG Mara’s statement would be correct. Since the final product is a PDF, not so much. (Doc, you could post a pic of your original JPEG or TIFF to confirm this.)

  13. avatar
    misha April 1, 2012 at 6:30 pm #

    Take any photograph, blow it up to 400%, and there will be the same variations.

  14. avatar
    donna April 1, 2012 at 6:52 pm #

    re the martin/zimmerman incident, i noticed that they named the “experts”:

    Tom Owen, of Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence

    Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, used audio enhancement and human analysis and came to the same conclusion.

    why hasn’t arpaio NAMED his so-called “experts”?

    why the SECRECY?

  15. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 1, 2012 at 7:18 pm #

    One of the things you might try is photocopying the original typewritten document onto the security paper. That may be how the long form was made.

    y_p_w: One could print a document on a sheet – preferably a photocopy of high-quality scan of a document typed with a manual typewriter. Then run it through a scanner to see what happens.

  16. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 1, 2012 at 7:28 pm #

    The text of Zebest’s report referenced Figure 10 shown next to it. Figure 10 is the White House PDF. It is not a JPG file. I agree that what she said is true of a JPG file, but she didn’t show an image from a JPG file, but a PDF.

    Sef: If the scan had been left as a JPEG Mara’s statement would be correct. Since the final product is a PDF, not so much. (Doc, you could post a pic of your original JPEG or TIFF to confirm this.)

  17. avatar
    Jamese777 April 1, 2012 at 8:00 pm #

    y_p_w: Doesn’t matter.Legally a proper scan+printout or photocopy of the original document is a useful document as long as it carries the seal of the Hawaii Dept of Health.

    I haven’t seen the original document I signed around the time of my kid’s birth.However, I’ve managed to use it many times in an official capacity.Once was even with a photocopy of a certified birth certificate.As long as it contain’s a “registrar’s” signature, it was legally useful.

    Tell that to a birther! 😉

  18. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 1, 2012 at 8:16 pm #

    I should take this opportunity to note that there is pixelation and pixilation and then what Squeeky is talking about.

    Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter: Pixilation is normal, true dat. But still, one should try to keep it a minimum, perhaps on weekends only.

    Hic.

  19. avatar
    traderjack April 1, 2012 at 8:25 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy, Ah another example of not revealing all fo the truth, isn’t it.

    Now the complaint about the pixelation of the R in the name is that the other letters are not pixilated.

    now you have posted two letters with pixilation. Now why are both the same when the contention is that on the Obama BC there are two letter adjacent to each other , and one is pixilated and the other is not.

    Can you show that as happening on your birth certificate in one place on a piece of the bC. such as you birth place, as that will reveal little about your personal informtion.

  20. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 1, 2012 at 8:36 pm #

    The commenter referred to in the article is the person who runs the Cry and Howl web site. It looks like my article stung, as he chose to reply in an article “More Amateurs Defending Barack Obama’s Fake Birth Certificate.”

    Before you go over there, let me give you a little background. Some time ago I wrote an article: “The Doc got layers.” It’s about me scanning my birth certificate back last July. Cry and Howl had an article about the same kind of signature nonsense that I talk about in this article, so I went over there to leave a comment something like:

    You can see this for yourself if you have a copy of Adobe Acrobat Standard and a scanner. I scanned my own birth certificate, and selected “Optimize scanned PDF” from the Document menu. My scanned birth certificate shows the same anomalies you see in the Obama form including part of a signature stored as a colored image and part as B&W.

    When I went to post it, it wanted me to log in to WordPress.com. To make a very long story short, I had problems, tried a couple of different logins (I don’t normally use WordPress.com for anything). And apparently I got the comment posted twice under two different logins.

    So from that, the Howler got the impression that there were two people coordinating their activities, saying:

    It’s bullshit! Just like the website The Obama Conspiracy Theories and the opening line of the visitors guide: This is an independent blog about conspiracy theories and fringe views about Barack Obama. That line is bullshit; as there’s nothing “independent” about it.

    The Wolfer actually figured it out, but I guess it didn’t fit his world view:

    Now I’m sure they will explain the “coincidence” of two identical comments in which both commenters claimed to do the exact same thing to their birth certificates as being either “coincidence” or maybe even the same person using a different name. Folks, it is certified b.s. I don’t know who these people are and really don’t give a rat’s ass …

  21. avatar
    Majority Will April 1, 2012 at 8:45 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    The commenter referred to in the article is the person who runs the Cry and Howl web site. It looks like my article stung, as he chose to reply in an article “More Amateurs Defending Barack Obama’s Fake Birth Certificate.”

    Before you go over there, let me give you a little background. Some time ago I wrote an article: “The Doc got layers.” It’s about me scanning my birth certificate back last July. Cry and Howl had an article about the same kind of signature nonsense that I talk about in this article, so I went over there to leave a comment something like:

    When I went to post it, it wanted me to log in to WordPress.com. To make a very long story short, I had problems, tried a couple of different logins (I don’t normally use WordPress.com for anything). And apparently I got the comment posted twice under two different logins.

    So from that, the Howler got the impression that there were two people coordinating their activities, saying:

    The Wolfer actually figured it out, but I guess it didn’t fit his world view:

    Some hinges are looser than others.

  22. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 1, 2012 at 9:04 pm #

    BTW, it should be “pixelated” not “pixilated.” The latter is something different.

    What I did in this article is to show that what the CCP claimed was a sign of fakery is in fact not. I did this by providing a counterexample. And what I demonstrated is that the CCP are either liars or incompetent. With that demonstrated, their credibility and their validity becomes zero.

    I don’t have Obama’s long form birth certificate. I don’t have the White House scanning equipment. I don’t have the White House Software. I don’t even know what the equipment is, nor what the software settings were.

    My own birth certificate is at a hugely lower resolution than Obama’s. It’s like 150 DPI, probably from an imaging system. The certificate is mostly useless for this experiment, except that the registrar’s signature and certification (which was added to the certificate) is clear, but it is not typewritten and in fact it is a very bold and wide text.The registrar’s signature is what appears in the article. So the short of it is that there is no text on my birth certificate analogous to the reasonably clear typewriting on the Obama certificate.

    For this reason I will not accept a challenge to replicate every artifact in the White House PDF file. That is an unreasonable standard.

    However, it turns out that the PDF I created for this article does have two adjacent letters, one pixelated and one not. In fact it’s rather frequent.

    Here’s the Image:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/DocBC_Detail.png

    traderjack: Dr. Conspiracy, Ah another example of not revealing all fo the truth, isn’t it.

    Now the complaint about the pixelation of the R in the name is that the other letters are not pixilated.

  23. avatar
    nbc April 1, 2012 at 9:14 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: However, it turns out that the PDF I created for this article does have two adjacent letters, one pixelated and one not. In fact it’s rather frequent.

    So much fun to lay to rest the foolish beliefs of the birthers…

  24. avatar
    Keith April 1, 2012 at 10:08 pm #

    Jamese777: It continues to surprise me that so many people seem not to know the difference between a copy of a document and an original document.

    Me too. That is why examining PDF files and trying to determine whether the source document is fraudulent is stupid.

    The only birth certificate and birth record data for Barack Obama that matters is the hard copy and data on that hard copy which is on file at the Hawaii Department of Health.

    Well, yes and no.

    The birth record on file at the Hawai’i Department of Health is the ultimate source document, yes. It is not however a “Birth Certificate” because it does not carry a certification. That is why they lock it up and don’t let unauthorized persons anywhere near it. They must protect the integrity of that source document in order to ensure that the certified copies they produce from it are ‘True Copies’.

    YOU AIN’T GONNA GET NEAR THAT SOURCE DOCUMENT; NO HOW, NO WAY. That is what “certified copies” are for.

    (note: Doc ensures us that ‘in the trade’ the source document are referred to as Birth Certificates even though they don’t carry a certification. That is irrelevant to the argument though because I’m not talking shortcut jargon. I’m talking technicalities because that is what you are trying to press as an excuse to get at the vault source record.)

    On the other hand, production of certified hard copies of that source document, either via a direct scan of some sort or a computer database extract is the sole purpose of the retention and protection of that source document. Such a hard copy, properly certified, is indeed a “Birth Certificate” and is completely relevant.

    More importantly, it is the information on that certificate that is relevant.

    Scanned images of photocopies of the original, vault copy document are irrelevant.

    Correctamundo. A scanned image of a certified document no longer carries the certification, and is no longer a certificate. Claiming forensic expertise and the ability to detect forgery from such a scanned image is itself a fraud.

    The hard copy source document (which is a TRUE COPY OR ABSTRACT of the vault source document and is properly certified) used to create the scanned image, is absolutely a proper, legal, birth certificate, and is absolutely relevant.

    What point then is a scanned image? Well, Obama cannot give everyone in America their own personal copy of his Birth Certificate, and putting it on tour, travelling around America for the interested to see is extremely impracticle. Publishing an image of the BC provides a method for masses of viewers to access the information and to assure themselves that the FUD merchants are just propagandizing.

    If they have doubts as to the veracity of the information on the image, they can look to the actual authority in charge of the maintenance of the information for confirmation of the information on the image, and alternate corroborating sources.

    So what confirmation as the actual authority (the Hawai’i Department of Health) provided?

    => Two different forms of “Birth Certificate”, one a Computer database extract the other a photocopy of the vault source document. These are of course in dispute by the birthers, but the relevant takeaway from them is that they both agree about the information.

    => The Hawai’i DoH has also published the “Birth Index” record, which is their internal reference to the contents of the “vault”. This has been reported in several forms, a memo, a web page FAQ, and anyone can walk in the door at the DoH and see the index printout for themselves. Again the takeaway from this is that the index agrees with published Birth Certificate images about the information.

    => The Hawai’i DoH officials have made personal official press releases saying that the published Birth Certificate images agree with the birth event source document as to the information they convey.

    => The Hawai’i DoH officials have testified under oath before the Hawai’i State Legislature that the Birth Certificate images, published by the Obama Campaign, are images of the Birth Certificate that was issued to him by their department, and that therefore they agree with the information they convey

    OK, sure, the DoH backs their data, but is there any alternate corroborating evidence? Maybe something that serves as an independent ‘witness’ contemporary with the event? Like a newspaper notice maybe? Yes, of course, the birth notice is published in two different Honolulu newspapers.

    So even if the PDF files were somehow created bit by bit, pixel by pixel by the CIA and MOSSAD, if the information on them is demonstrably correct, then that is all that is relevant. Of course since the DoH says the information is correct there is no motivation for Obama to have the CIA and MOSSAD forge a PDF when they could just get a proper Birth Certificate from Hawai’i. So that route just winds down the rabbit hole.

    So the scanned images are not birth certificates, but they are evidence that the Birth Certificate exists, and the information shown on the images has been confirmed in a number of ways.

    And that is all that is relevant.

    FUD Merchants do what FUD Merchants do. There is an entire segment of the popular media dedicated to choking off the BullSh1t Meters that we are born with. It takes more effort than ever before to identify propaganda and judge it for reasonableness.

  25. avatar
    Keith April 1, 2012 at 10:11 pm #

    Doc assures, not Doc ensures. sorry.

  26. avatar
    PaulBiler April 1, 2012 at 10:16 pm #

    Scientist:
    …This is an exercise in post-modern philosophy.In effect, we must all acknowledge that any image is not the real object.Hence all computer documents and images are false, in that they are not the real object…

    So we are left with this.

  27. avatar
    misha April 1, 2012 at 10:34 pm #

    Keith: Scanned images of photocopies of the original, vault copy document are irrelevant.

    Here’s what I’ve been looking for
    A genuine copy
    Of a fake Dior
    – Allan Sherman

  28. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 1, 2012 at 10:44 pm #

    Well, if the source is bad enough, I think such a determination is possible and I claim to have done that with the John McCain “certificate”. I also think we did a pretty good job on the Lucas Smith certificate.

    Keith: Me too. That is why examining PDF files and trying to determine whether the source document is fraudulent is stupid.

  29. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 1, 2012 at 10:46 pm #

    Try to remember that you are a guest here, and act accordingly.

    traderjack: Dr. Conspiracy, Ah another example of not revealing all fo the truth, isn’t it.

  30. avatar
    Keith April 1, 2012 at 10:48 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Well, if the source is bad enough, I think such a determination is possible and I claim to have done that with the John McCain “certificate”. I also think we did a pretty good job on the Lucas Smith certificate.

    Yes, but you made those determinations based on the information presented in the image, not on the bit patterns, number of layers, and all that nonsense.

    It is the information that is relevant, not the storage medium.

  31. avatar
    john April 1, 2012 at 10:53 pm #

    Doc C. appears to be very knowledgeable and intelligent about the issue of the birth certificate forgery, but he is not experienced. This fact was echoed by Mark Zullo that Obama’s BC was determined to be a forgery by many merely only after 30 minutes of being uploaded to the White House Server. This is because those who have used document and photo manipulation software everyday and who are highly experienced (But not necessarilly scholarly in the product) could easily see that Obama’s BC was a forgery. I would also suspect that Cold Case Posse Experts may not as scholarly expert in the subject as Doc C appears to be but are experienced in the product and in the field. There is is difference.

  32. avatar
    Keith April 1, 2012 at 11:05 pm #

    PaulBiler: So we are left with this.

    Exactly.

  33. avatar
    nbc April 1, 2012 at 11:29 pm #

    traderjack: Dr. Conspiracy, Ah another example of not revealing all fo the truth, isn’t it.

    In other words, Traderjack is once again concerned how the facts conflict with his ignorance driven fears.

  34. avatar
    G April 2, 2012 at 12:07 am #

    Well said on all accounts! Kudos.

    Keith: And that is all that is relevant.
    FUD Merchants do what FUD Merchants do. There is an entire segment of the popular media dedicated to choking off the BullSh1t Meters that we are born with. It takes more effort than ever before to identify propaganda and judge it for reasonableness.

  35. avatar
    J. Potter April 2, 2012 at 12:33 am #

    PaulBiler: So we are left with this.

    Knocked it out of the park, Paul!

    So then here’s something birthers and anti-birthers can agree on (although not for the same reasons):

    This is not a birth certificate.

  36. avatar
    J. Potter April 2, 2012 at 1:13 am #

    The continued abuse of the word “pixelization” continues to irritate. Yes, digital images are pixelated. Congratulations, birthers, you have caught up, conceptually, to the 1880s. Since you do call them “pixels”, I’ll spot you up to 1965. At least I have yet to see a birther rambling on about “them thar ‘picture elements'”.

    8-bit images allow for noise and anti-aliasing, 1-bit imagery does not. But all are pixelated. Further, there is no anti-aliasing in any scanned image or digital photograph, no more than your television is engaged in anti-aliasing. Anti-aliasing is a process used in render virtual objects, either 2D vector objects, or 3D wireframe objects, smoothly and pleasingly for display via raster technology, such as a monitor or a printer. The text on your display is anti-aliased; the text in any scanned image of document, is not. Unless it was added later (there’s a bone for the nutters)

    The kicker is that they go to great lengths to make much of elements being on “different layers” …. and occasionally into detail about the differences between those layers, salting the snake oil with a few grains of truth about color depths and resolutions … but then revert to comparing glyphs that are on different layers—different layers with different properties—and demand to know why they aren’t all the same! They make much of layers and want to pretend there aren’t any!

    Do they stop short of explaining the differences between 1-bit depth images and 8-bit? Surely not, if the audience got that, it would give the game away.

    Apples are apples and oranges are oranges are oranges. They are not the same.

    Wait … why isn’t this apple just like this orange? Isn’t all fruit the same?

  37. avatar
    J. Potter April 2, 2012 at 1:16 am #

    PS – a great paper on pixels in history, for any who haven’t seen it:

    http://www.foveon.com/files/ABriefHistoryofPixel2.pdf

  38. avatar
    Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter April 2, 2012 at 1:32 am #

    Scientist:

    You said: “Amazing, no? Think of this-if I visit the Louvre take a photo of the Mona Lisa it is in some senses a forgery, because it is not the actual daViinci itself, but merely a representation. The same with a pdf or jpg of the President’s birth certificate. But that doesn’t mean that his certificate isn’t just as real as the painting on the wall in Paris.”

    That is really a great way of saying it! Don’t be surprised if I quote you.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  39. avatar
    G April 2, 2012 at 2:09 am #

    I agree. That is a very apt and appropriate analogy.

    Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter: Scientist:You said: “Amazing, no? Think of this-if I visit the Louvre take a photo of the Mona Lisa it is in some senses a forgery, because it is not the actual daViinci itself, but merely a representation. The same with a pdf or jpg of the President’s birth certificate. But that doesn’t mean that his certificate isn’t just as real as the painting on the wall in Paris.”That is really a great way of saying it! Don’t be surprised if I quote you.Squeeky FrommGirl Reporter

  40. avatar
    traderjack April 2, 2012 at 2:59 am #

    Let’s see, what you are saying is that all scanner leave pixiled letters when scanned and converted to PDF, and you are , of course correct,

    But a scanner copying printed or typed document will have the same effect on all of the letter, and they should all be affected the same way.

    But in a typed letter has a pixel letter in a word, for some reason, it will show a different pixelation on that letter than on the other letters,

    And that, to me, is what the problem is in the word BARACK with the none uniform treatement of the R in that word.

  41. avatar
    G April 2, 2012 at 3:09 am #

    What part of this concept do you not grasp?

    Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter: Scientist:

    Think of this-if I visit the Louvre take a photo of the Mona Lisa it is in some senses a forgery, because it is not the actual daViinci itself, but merely a representation. The same with a pdf or jpg of the President’s birth certificate. But that doesn’t mean that his certificate isn’t just as real as the painting on the wall in Paris.” </b

    You are simply continuing to waste your time being cranky and nitpicky about completely immaterial and irrelavant issues.

    traderjack: Let’s see, what you are saying is that all scanner leave pixiled letters when scanned and converted to PDF, and you are , of course correct,But a scanner copying printed or typed document will have the same effect on all of the letter, and they should all be affected the same way.But in a typed letter has a pixel letter in a word, for some reason, it will show a different pixelation on that letter than on the other letters,And that, to me, is what the problem is in the word BARACK with the none uniform treatement of the R in that word.

  42. avatar
    traderjack April 2, 2012 at 3:29 am #

    Oh, come on, if I wasn’t here who could you be complaining about and showing your expert knowledge of this stuff.

    I am saying that a typwritten document, that was photocopied , should never show a different letter than the other typed letters in the same word.

    No way in the world can a typewritten word have different pixels on the different letters that would be caused by scanning.

    and yes it has nothing at all to do with the correctness of the information just a sympton that something is wrong with that typewritten name.

    you may disagee.

  43. avatar
    G April 2, 2012 at 3:56 am #

    At least you’ve moved to using a more reasonable word like disagree. Yes, I will agree to disagree with you and have no problem with that. No one can take away your fears and delusions from you except yourself. But just don’t expect anyone else to buy into the same stuff you do.

    These boards are full of lot of real conversation and dialogue. Trust me, a clutter of crazy troll talk is not missed when it leaves here at all.

    Look, there is nothing wrong with you not being happy with the direction of an ever changing world around you and prefering someone else to lead the country. No one begrudges you your right to cast your ballot as you chose and there is nothing wrong with you simply admitting that you don’t like a particular President and leave it at that.

    At your age, you should know how to handle and the very real disappointments that occur all the time in life in a more adult manner and be able to deal with it without needing to hold tantrums and come up with unnecessary excuses and imaginary bogeyman to blame things on.

    If Birtherism was completely gone tomorrow, I’d easily fill my time with plenty of other more important hobbies. The non-political crazy conspiracies are much more entertaining and less offensive to observe in progress…but sadly, this is the current kook fad.

    You would find that people would treat eventually treat you reasonable if you actually behaved like a reasonable and sincere person once in awhile. I can’t grasp why you choose to waste your freetime making yourself look bad and foolish all the time. I can’t think of many things that are more counterproductive than that.

    traderjack: Oh, come on, if I wasn’t here who could you be complaining about and showing your expert knowledge of this stuff.I am saying that a typwritten document, that was photocopied , should never show a different letter than the other typed letters in the same word.No way in the world can a typewritten word have different pixels on the different letters that would be caused by scanning.and yes it has nothing at all to do with the correctness of the information just a sympton that something is wrong with that typewritten name.you may disagee.

  44. avatar
    Keith April 2, 2012 at 4:02 am #

    traderjack: No way in the world can a typewritten word have different pixels on the different letters that would be caused by scanning.

    Yes it will, because the typewritten letters are not uniformly inked on the paper, they are not uniformly aligned in identical pixel ‘grids’, they are not uniformly displayed over the exact same bits of background, they don’t have the same specs of dust on the glass nearby.

    The algorithm isn’t trying to understand the meaning of the document. It is scanning it for light and dark and color and the best way to store it so it can be reproduced to a given level of accuracy. It doesn’t know about fonts and letters, it knows about what the programmer decided was a useful way to store an image efficiently with as little loss of fidelity as reasonable.

    and yes it has nothing at all to do with the correctness of the information just a sympton that something is wrong with that typewritten name.

    If the information is correct, then there is no point to arguing about a imaging fraud. It is the information that is relevant, not the image. If the correct information is written on toilet paper it is still the correct information.

    you may disagee.

    Geeze. There I go again, responding to an unAmerican, Constitution hating trool.

  45. avatar
    Scientist April 2, 2012 at 6:28 am #

    traderjack: I am saying that a typwritten document, that was photocopied , should never show a different letter than the other typed letters in the same word.

    Believe me, the paper document that came from Hawaii is the real deal.. I can vouch for it personally. And for the actual birth. Been there, done that. You picked the wrong guy to b.s.

    Now where is YOUR b.c? You’ve been here spreading a lot of nonsense. Now it’s time to show your cards, dude. Otherwise, go play bingo and stay off the nursing home computer. Let some of the others have a turn so they can email their grandkids.

  46. avatar
    Scientist April 2, 2012 at 6:29 am #

    Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter: That is really a great way of saying it! Don’t be surprised if I quote you.

    You’ll have to contact my agent,,,,

  47. avatar
    J. Potter April 2, 2012 at 6:43 am #

    traderjack: what the problem is in the word BARACK with the none uniform treatement of the R in that word.

    Jackie-me-boy, in an image full of mysteries for the unwise, why do you always obsess over the ‘R’?

    Why not the ‘1’?
    Or the comma in the date?
    Or the top piece of the ‘l’ in the gender?
    Or the ‘X’ in box 7e?
    Or the ‘K’ in ‘Kenya’?
    Or the ‘S’ in ‘Stanley’?
    Or the ‘, K’ in mother’s birthplace?
    Or the ‘Stanley Ann D’ in ‘Stanley Ann Dunham Obama’?
    Or all of the penciled notations?
    Or the attendant’s signature?
    Or the registrar’s signature?

    My god, the ‘Non’ in ‘None’ is a different color!
    So are the date stamps in 20 and 22!

    So … yeah …. what is the deal with that ‘R’?

    Does the ‘R’ look different in the AP image? Yes or no, and how or how not?

  48. avatar
    Majority Will April 2, 2012 at 8:24 am #

    nbc: In other words, Traderjack is once again concerned how the facts conflict with his ignorance driven fears.

    Babbling birther fool.

  49. avatar
    HistorianDude April 2, 2012 at 9:20 am #

    This is one of the areas where it is clear to me that the CCP (and Mara Zebest in particular) demonstrated pure incompetence rather than active dishonesty. The contention that the “noise” is different on different parts of the certificate only shows that they neither really understand what “noise” means, nor do they understand the PDF itself at even the most basic level.

    “Noise” in digital images is flecks of random color in an image that otherwise would consist of smooth color. What Zebest has identified is not differential noise at all, but the difference between the single “layer” that optimization rendered as a polychromatic JPEG, and all the other layers that were rendered an monochromatic bitmasks.

    The JPEG (the layer including the green security background, the form frame, much of the form text, most of the signatures, and some of the typed text and certificate number) is anti-aliased… a process that Zebest should understand since she actually discusses it. Anti-aliasing is very important in computer graphics for two reasons. First it makes the image easier to read by increasing contrast between, say, text and its background. Second it “tricks” the human eye into not noticing the vast amount of information that is lost when using “lossy” compression to shrink a file’s size.

    As a result you get multicolored object margins as the program endeavors to make the boundaries look clearer, smoother and more natural. This is what creates artifacts like the white halos and the multicolored pixels that can be seen on close examination of the terminal digit in the certificate number. It’s not “noise” but a deliberate digital effect.

    But monochrome bitmasks cannot be anti-aliased. They do not even have the pallet of different colors necessary for the effect. That is how they manage to compress so effectively, by eliminating any need to store the data associated with hundreds of different possible colors for each pixel. Additionally, the bitmasks in this PDF cut their storage size an additional 75% by using a lower resolution than the JPEG. Each pixel in the bitmasks is equivalent to four pixels in the JPEG. So not only is their no anti-aliasing, there is lower resolution.

    This is what Zebest and the CCP have misidentified as “different noise.” That they have identified it as an ‘anomaly’ at all is bad enough. But that Zebest would identify it as “noise” is particularly troubling, since any genuine power user of adobe would presumably have experience deliberately adding noise to some of their work, and therefore have no excuse for not knowing what it is.

  50. avatar
    HistorianDude April 2, 2012 at 9:29 am #

    traderjack:
    I am saying that a typwritten document, that was photocopied , should never show a different letter than the other typed letters in the same word.

    No way in the world can a typewritten word have different pixels on the different letters that would be caused by scanning.

    That’s just silly.

    Perhaps the only consistent characteristic one can confidently assign to typewritten text from a 1960s era manual mechanical typewriter is inconsistency.

    Inconsistency in spacing, alignment, saturation, even size (determined largely by the strength of the keystroke and the age of the ink ribbon).

    That an unthinking compression algorithm would recognize different typed letters as deserving of a different compression choice is actually the least mysterious detail of the PDF, especially when it made similar different choices for form text, stamped digits, even individual cursive stokes in the signatures.

    Most importantly… we all intuitively understand that the specific choices made to separate different characters or digits into different “layers” is weird. That should be your first clue that a thinking human (i.e. deliberate forger) was not responsible.

  51. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 2, 2012 at 9:34 am #

    Speaking only about Adobe Acrobat, I noticed that the optimization algorithm worked on a grid basis and that if any part of the rectangle had the black text represented as color, then all of the black in the rectangle was color. You can see this in the illustration on this article.

    As Woodman has pointed out, it appears that with the Mac software, regions compressed as gray scale are selected based on connectivity with other things on the form.

    Keith: The algorithm isn’t trying to understand the meaning of the document. It is scanning it for light and dark and color and the best way to store it so it can be reproduced to a given level of accuracy. It doesn’t know about fonts and letters, it knows about what the programmer decided was a useful way to store an image efficiently with as little loss of fidelity as reasonable.

  52. avatar
    y_p_w April 2, 2012 at 9:41 am #

    Keith: The birth record on file at the Hawai’i Department of Health is the ultimate source document, yes. It is not however a “Birth Certificate” because it does not carry a certification. That is why they lock it up and don’t let unauthorized persons anywhere near it. They must protect the integrity of that source document in order to ensure that the certified copies they produce from it are True Copies’.

    I would note that I remember trying to get a certified copy of my marriage license from my county’s clerk-recorder’s office. I paid and went to the window, at which point they couldn’t produce it and the “deputy clerk” was talking about perhaps trying to pull out microfilm from their local files to make a copy. I’d gotten a copy previously in less than two minutes of showing up at the window.

    However, this is what would probably blow some people’s minds. They obviously were having issues with accessing the database. The employee said that they were in contact with their IT contractor in Utah, who was working on fixing the issue. I waited a while, but had to leave and asked the employee if it could just be mailed to me. When I later called for a status update, I was told it was ready minutes after I left their office.

    So apparently someone else remotely had access to their systems, although I don’t know if they could access the pictures. In any case, the remote contractor didn’t have access to their engraved security paper, which would be needed to complete the process. Each certified copy would also need to be signed by a “deputy clerk”, which is the procedure in place for vital records from this office. Of course the original document is on file somewhere in Sacramento, and I’ll probably never see it again in my lifetime.

  53. avatar
    Scientist April 2, 2012 at 9:45 am #

    In a nutshell, here is the CCP’s argument: We did no training and are all in terrible shape. We tried to run a marathon. We all got tired after 1 mile and quit. Therefore, running a marathon is impossible and all those people who claim to have done it are liars. Many of them are Kenyan, by the way….

  54. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 2, 2012 at 9:57 am #

    This is not unusual. I did stuff like this when I was working.

    However, what might blow your mind even more is that nowadays, not only is IT support off site, but the data is off site as well. More and more that sensitive personal, medical and government data is housed in some secure data center in another state. Governments are getting out of the IT business.

    y_p_w: So apparently someone else remotely had access to their systems, although I don’t know if they could access the pictures. In any case, the remote contractor didn’t have access to their engraved security paper, which would be needed to complete the process

  55. avatar
    y_p_w April 2, 2012 at 10:04 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    This is not unusual. I did stuff like this when I was working.

    However, what might blow your mind even more is that nowadays, not only is IT support off site, but the data is off site as well. More and more that sensitive personal, medical and government data is housed in some secure data center in another state. Governments are getting out of the IT business.

    It did occur to me that the data could also be held off-site, or at least backed up off-site. The key would be that contracts are signed that the information is confidential, and that any off-site worker is held to the same standards for confidentiality as a government employee.

  56. avatar
    JPotter April 2, 2012 at 10:07 am #

    HistorianDude: we all intuitively understand that the specific choices made to separate different characters or digits into different “layers” is weird. That should be your first clue that a thinking human (i.e. deliberate forger) was not responsible.

    It should be, HD, it should be. But these guys demonstrate, repeatedly, an inability to understand how information is digitized. They can’t get beyond the physical realm. Permanent black ink must scan pure black. Letters generated on the same piece of equipment in the analog world must look the same when digitized. Scanned images must only have only layer …. after all, the original paper only have one layer, right? It wasn’t printed on 2-ply toilet tissue, was it? 😉

    Always remember, these guys are simple enough to believe it’s physically impossible for a typewriter strike twice in the same spot.

  57. avatar
    justlw April 2, 2012 at 10:07 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: with the Mac software

    We don’t know it was “the Mac software,” that did this and I’m fairly sure it was instead software on the scanning device itself.

  58. avatar
    Keith April 2, 2012 at 10:08 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Speaking only about Adobe Acrobat, I noticed that the optimization algorithm worked on a grid basis and that if any part of the rectangle had the black text represented as color, then all of the black in the rectangle was color. You can see this in the illustration on this article.

    As Woodman has pointed out, it appears that with the Mac software, regions compressed as gray scale are selected based on connectivity with other things on the form.

    I’m not sure I understand what you are trying to say here. Is it incompatible with my ‘diatribe’ above?

    I would argue that the algorithm cannot compute the ‘most effective’ way to store any particular pixel without looking at the pixels near by. Does the algorithm consider ‘nearby’ to be a 3×3 9 pixel window with the immediate neighbors or maybe a 5×5 25 bit window or even bigger? I dunno, I suppose it depends on the accuracy required by the user settings.

    Does it have pattern recognition built in that can recognize something that looks like a signature? Maybe, and maybe it take certain actions based on that determination. But it isn’t trying to read the signature, nor in general trying to identify any text and do OCR.

    I suppose you could argue that identifying text would be relatively easy and efficient to store. But then you would need to accurately identify the font and all sorts of parameters.

    Obviously, the most important thing for a end result of a scanning process is to be able to render the document again as faithfully as possible given the accuracy limits imposed by the hardware and the software settings. If you could perfectly recognize all text on the document you could render the meaning of the document pretty faithfully, but not necessarily the form.

  59. avatar
    marshman April 2, 2012 at 10:10 am #

    Both sides can not seem to agree on anything to do with the BC. What about the Selective service card? Is this forged?

  60. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 2, 2012 at 10:11 am #

    Yes, there is a difference. And the fact that every major media outlet in the country who employs the most experienced photographers and digital image processing professionals have described the Cold Case Posse’s report as “long-debunked” says volumes. It turns out that there is one level of qualification absolutely required to appreciate the flaws in the White House document, and that is being a birther. Unless someone is a birther, they cannot be seen or understood.

    john: I would also suspect that Cold Case Posse Experts may not as scholarly expert in the subject as Doc C appears to be but are experienced in the product and in the field. There is is difference.

  61. avatar
    bovril April 2, 2012 at 10:11 am #

    The part of all of this that annoys me the most is real simple…

    The map is not the country.

    A map cannot be used to farm land, house people, raise armies, trade with another country. IT’S A MAP

    An electronic representation of a hard copy BC cannot be used for the purposes of a BC such as applying for a passport, showing nationality etc.

    The image is an electronic representation of the hard copy, it is NOT the hard copy itself.

    The hard COPIES, remember there are TWO BC’s, have been physically seen OR handled OR both by members of the press INCLUDING WNDS’s own White House correspondent, Lester Kinsolving

    You CANNOT use an electronic representation of a hard copy document to validate or invalidate the hard copy.

    The MOST you can do is to use said representation to generate information that can be used when you are working on the original hard copy. As an example you may, via contrasting, change in lightness/darkness/color etc, be able to draw out other information that can be referred to in the original.

    All this blather by Arpaio and all of the rest of the Birthers is intellectual masturbation at best.

  62. avatar
    justlw April 2, 2012 at 10:18 am #

    “He lives in that piece of paper?”

  63. avatar
    Keith April 2, 2012 at 10:21 am #

    y_p_w: The key would be that contracts are signed that the information is confidential, and that any off-site worker is held to the same standards for confidentiality as a government employee.

    Oh, heck yeah. Contractors are (in theory) tied up in knots with confidentiality agreements. I had to invent an entire HR database at least 3 times, with ‘real’ instances of the the ‘real’ data, but scrubbed to high heaven of anything that could possibly identify the person that ‘provided’ the original data. One company had 10’s of thousands of employees and we needed an entire clean room database for stress testing. Functionality testing was much simpler, but stress testing was a nightmare (for many reasons). But it had to be done.

    Governments are, if anything, far far more stringent that private companies.

  64. avatar
    Keith April 2, 2012 at 10:23 am #

    bovril:
    The part of all of this that annoys me the most is real simple…

    The map is not the country.

    All this blather by Arpaio and all of the rest of the Birthers is intellectual masturbation at best.

    Well said. Succinct and to the point. I don’t have that failing myself.

  65. avatar
    JD Reed April 2, 2012 at 10:29 am #

    John: “Doc C. appears to be very knowledgeable and intelligent about the issue of the birth certificate forgery, but he is not experienced. This fact was echoed by Mark Zullo that Obama’s BC was determined to be a forgery by many merely only after 30 minutes of being uploaded to the White House Server. This is because those who have used document and photo manipulation software everyday and who are highly experienced (But not necessarilly scholarly in the product) could easily see that Obama’s BC was a forgery. I would also suspect that Cold Case Posse Experts may not as scholarly expert in the subject as Doc C appears to be but are experienced in the product and in the field. There is is difference.”
    John, what part of you can’t tell whether it’s valid or invalid from an online copy do you not understand. Zullo is a proven liar, from the very press conference when he asserted that someone in Hawaii back when Obama was born could just phone in and report a birth — real or imagined — and get it accepted as true. Proven cases of such happening are as scarce as unicorn.

  66. avatar
    justlw April 2, 2012 at 10:37 am #

    For those who didn’t recognize the previous quote, here’s the CCP video it came from. I think it sums up their main argument quite nicely, and even includes a thorough rebuttal.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSvNGUyPeNk&t=10m54s

  67. avatar
    JPotter April 2, 2012 at 10:38 am #

    bovril: All this blather by Arpaio and all of the rest of the Birthers is intellectual masturbation at best.

    Whatever it isn’ or it ain’, it tain’t inner-lekshul a’tall.

  68. avatar
    The Magic M April 2, 2012 at 10:41 am #

    traderjack: No way in the world can a typewritten word have different pixels on the different letters that would be caused by scanning.

    You conveniently ignore both the optimization and the size reduction process that obviously were involved in the creation of the PDF.

    A good example is comparing the registrar’s stamp in the PDF and in the photos Savannah Guthrie took. You know, the now infamous “TXE”.
    It shows what this scan-optimize-reduce did to the poor “H” that wasn’t perfectly pitch-black stamped in the first place.

    You are free to make a simplified experiment yourself: take a screenshot of the word “XooooooX” from a high-resolution source (such as a DTP program), then reduce the snippet by, like, factor 10 at least and convert to JPG (for fun, you can try to convert first, then reduce, then for comparison reverse the steps). Will the “X”‘s still look the same? Pixel by pixel? I highly doubt it.
    Now try the same with a “perfect” printout of “XooooooX”. Scan it, look at it at high magnification – identical by the pixel? And you weren’t even optimizing and reducing!

  69. avatar
    JPotter April 2, 2012 at 10:56 am #

    Thanks, JD Reed, for revisiting John’s comment. I had glossed over it. This is a keeper.

    John, you’re admitting, and stating that Zullo admitted as well, that the determination of forgery cames first, and the analysis* came second.

    There was never a chance that these guys would not say it was a forgery. I don’t expect this to sink in, but the birther shills did not come to the conclusion of forgery based on any evidence, they cry “FORGERY!” becasue the have to. The only ‘evidence’ they need is the fact that it’s associated with Obama. His birth certificate says he was born in Hawaii.Their whole game hinges on the propagating the belief that such a document doesn’t exist, and any document stating such must be a fake. To them, that any genuine document would indicate that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii is impossible. To come to any other conclusion requires an admission of error (and an apology 😉 ). They aren’t in the business of examining anything objectively, they are in the business of selling the idea that Obama is illegitimate. And so long as people like you want to believe it, they’re happy to sell you what you want to hear.

    By listening to these sophists, you’re merely allowing them to fool you. They have an agenda, and that agenda is to make a living off your bias, and to deliver bias to political interests.

    How does it feel to be used, John?

    _____________________

    * I use the word generously here.

    john: This fact was echoed by Mark Zullo that Obama’s BC was determined to be a forgery by many merely only after 30 minutes of being uploaded to the White House Server.

  70. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 2, 2012 at 11:02 am #

    If the birthers insist on crank experts and wildly implausible scenarios about the birth certificate, I do not see how we could expect to discuss the selective service registration rationally either.

    Just as the birth certificate is confirmed by the State of Hawaii computer system that printed out the short form, the selective service registration is confirmed by the selective service computer system, a screen shot of which was provided via FOIA, and also verified with a selective service public system by several reporters.

    Birthers say, if it’s not perfect it’s a fraud. In the real world things aren’t perfect. So long as the birthers operate with that kind of thinking, it’s a waste of time to argue the point. It’s not necessarily a waste of time to listen to what birther have to say; it’s just a waste of time to try try to tell them anything.

    marshman: Both sides can not seem to agree on anything to do with the BC. What about the Selective service card? Is this forged?

  71. avatar
    G April 2, 2012 at 11:08 am #

    There is no need for both sides to agree. You are assuming a false-equivalency here.

    The Birthers are very similar to the Flat Earth Society folks. The rest of us in the world have a clear chain of empirical evidence that backs up that the world is round and orbits the sun. There is ZERO need to agree or tolerate the silly ideas of the Flat Earthers at all.

    NO, there is no serious evidence or reason to suspect “forgery” with the Selective Service card either. The CCP arguments merely attempt to cast suspicion on artifacts that can also happen with normal and reasonable explanations as well. Nothing that in any way shape or form leads to justifing an assumption of “fraud”. That is simply an unsupportable leap of biased illogic.

    marshman: Both sides can not seem to agree on anything to do with the BC. What about the Selective service card? Is this forged?

  72. avatar
    G April 2, 2012 at 11:10 am #

    AGREED! Well said.

    bovril:
    You CANNOT use an electronic representation of a hard copy document to validate or invalidate the hard copy.
    The MOST you can do is to use said representation to generate information that can be used when you are working on the original hard copy. As an example you may, via contrasting, change in lightness/darkness/color etc, be able to draw out other information that can be referred to in the original.
    All this blather by Arpaio and all of the rest of the Birthers is intellectual masturbation at best.

  73. avatar
    G April 2, 2012 at 11:11 am #

    ROTFLMAO!!!

    JPotter: Whatever it isn’ or it ain’, it tain’t inner-lekshul a’tall.

  74. avatar
    Whatever4 April 2, 2012 at 11:23 am #

    traderjack:

    I am saying that a typwritten document, that was photocopied , should never show a different letter than the other typed letters in the same word.

    No way in the world can a typewritten word have different pixels on the different letters that would be caused by scanning.

    Doc has shown examples from typewritten documents that show how the same letter looks different throughout the document. It’s now up to you to show a different typed document to disprove his theory. Evidence is what is required, not rhetoric. (Doc used Corsi’s dissertation, which isn’t readily available. Try looking for other dissertations online.)

    I’ve typed plenty of papers on manual typewriters. The letters always looked different from each other.

  75. avatar
    JPotter April 2, 2012 at 11:59 am #

    Whatever4: I’ve typed plenty of papers on manual typewriters. The letters always looked different from each other.

    On the other hand, an indicator of a poor digital forgery, would be identical glyphs throughout the document. Not 1 or 2, but all. Further, a typewritten documents full of idetical glyphs would also be fishy. A human-powered mechanical process involving inked ribbons is expected to produce uniformity? In which dimension?

    Jack seems to have no appreciation for just how much interpretation the brain does on visual input. We see what we expect to see. Learn to see as a camera sees, Jackie-me-boy. Don’t see the symbols, just look. It’s ink on paper. A scanner doesn’t think about what it’s scanning, it simply moves along, recording color values at specified intervals.

    This isn’t condescension, Jack, it’s the first thing an artrist must learn. You have to be able to see it to show it.

  76. avatar
    y_p_w April 2, 2012 at 12:18 pm #

    JPotter: On the other hand, an indicator of a poor digital forgery, would be identical glyphs throughout the document. Not 1 or 2, but all. Further, a typewritten documents full of idetical glyphs would also be fishy. A human-powered mechanical process involving inked ribbons is expected to produce uniformity? In which dimension?

    I remember meeting a comic book artist who did everything himself, including lettering. i read some articles on how he would letter his early work individually, and it would look like it, with little inconsistencies in the same letter in a different spot. Then he used a tool to scan samples of his lettering, which he used to create a font template to automate it so that he didn’t have to do it. After that, it was easy to see that an N anywhere on the page looked the same.

    I would expect a scanned font pattern to look the same. It would of course be suspicious if there was that kind of consistency in a supposed typewritten source document.

  77. avatar
    thisoldhippie April 2, 2012 at 12:46 pm #

    I agree with bovril. We are just running on a hamster’s treadmill trying to show birthers’ their “experts’ opinions” are BS because they cannot grasp the one main issue: a scan of a document is not the document. Nothing about the scan is relevant. The only way to prove that a document was created by a computer program would be to have a forensic computer expert inspect the computer from which the document was created, and that is moot in this case because there is a certified copy from the state of Hawaii that clearly shows the BC was not created somewhere else. I think the standard answer whenever they have an “investigation,” a “press report,” or a “presentation” should be, you cannot determine a document is a forgery from a scan and any expert who says they can is a liar. End of story.

  78. avatar
    Joy April 2, 2012 at 1:03 pm #

    No, the Cold Case Posse is not lying! These men are credible law men, and the truth is coming out from all directions… Foreign countries are reporting the truth! Remember you pay to deal records when you have EVERYTHING TO HIDE! Mainstream media is a black out! Sheriff Arpaio, COLD CASE POSSSE, Jerome CORSI, ARE TELLING THE TRUTH! So why would you as an American Citizen have so many problems with your birth certificate? We gladly show ours, and don’t seal documents! We have nothing to hide as we are Natural born citizens of two parents born in America! The reason our Forefathers required NATURAL BORN IS SO THE US PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE ALLEGIANCE TO NO OTHER COUNTRY… Only to America, AMERICANS! The media has been threatened with an investigation if the report the EVIDENCE OF FRAUD, and many have quit their jobs! STAND UP AMERICA SEEK THE REAL TRUTH, and protect YOUR FREEDOM! GOD BLESS AMERICA, AND SET HER FREE FROM TYRANNY!!!

  79. avatar
    bovril April 2, 2012 at 1:04 pm #

    Repeat after me…. “The map is not the country”….. 😎

  80. avatar
    bovril April 2, 2012 at 1:07 pm #

    All those capitals and exclaimation marks make your viewpoint soooooooo compelling….must buy into insane caterwauling….IQ points dropping….cerebellum shrivelling….USURPER….MOOSLEM/NAZI/SOCILIST….spooling abuluty fauls….klnmdfvfv;mm p;;pm; f, ;bfm;dm,

  81. avatar
    BillTheCat April 2, 2012 at 1:10 pm #

    Joy: No, the Cold Case Posse is not lying! These men are credible law men, and the truth is coming out from all directions… Foreign countries are reporting the truth! Remember you pay to deal records when you have EVERYTHING TO HIDE! Mainstream media is a black out! Sheriff Arpaio, COLD CASE POSSSE, Jerome CORSI, ARE TELLING THE TRUTH! So why would you as an American Citizen have so many problems with your birth certificate? We gladly show ours, and don’t seal documents! We have nothing to hide as we are Natural born citizens of two parents born in America! The reason our Forefathers required NATURAL BORN IS SO THE US PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE ALLEGIANCE TO NO OTHER COUNTRY… Only to America, AMERICANS! The media has been threatened with an investigation if the report the EVIDENCE OF FRAUD, and many have quit their jobs! STAND UP AMERICA SEEK THE REAL TRUTH, and protect YOUR FREEDOM! GOD BLESS AMERICA, AND SET HER FREE FROM TYRANNY!!!

    Ignorance is bliss, eh?

  82. avatar
    justlw April 2, 2012 at 1:17 pm #

    Joy: Remember you pay to deal records when you have EVERYTHING TO HIDE!

    Or if you’ve got a mint condition copy of Herbie Mann’s Push Push you’re selling on eBay.

  83. avatar
    Scientist April 2, 2012 at 1:18 pm #

    Joy: So why would you as an American Citizen have so many problems with your birth certificate? We gladly show ours

    Calling Mitt Romeny? Mitt? Bueller??

  84. avatar
    misha April 2, 2012 at 1:28 pm #

    Joy: Foreign countries are reporting the truth!

    Name them, and provide links.

    Joy: We have nothing to hide as we are Natural born citizens of two parents born in America!

    Mitt Romney’s father was born in Mexico. Google it.

    Joy: why would you as an American Citizen have so many problems with your birth certificate? We gladly show ours, and don’t seal documents!

    Name one other president who showed his birth certificate, and provide links.

    Joy: BLESS AMERICA, AND SET HER FREE FROM TYRANNY!!!

    Yeah, let’s start with James Dobson, Pat Robertson, and John Hagee.

    US Constitution, Article VI, paragraph 3: “…no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

    Joy: Only to America, AMERICANS!

    I served in the IDF. Do you have a problem with that?

  85. avatar
    Joy April 2, 2012 at 1:28 pm #

    Why has the “sealed” Certified original birth certificate not been viewed to compare it with the one presented as the “real” one on White House website? Why his the selective service card been stamped with year 80 when all others issued have been stamped with 4 digits 1980! The 80 is not centered for the date! Why seal your records if you claim to be “transparent?” the only reason to seal anything is you are hiding from the truth! It doesn’t take a rocket scientist, or computer expert to see this! You can argue all you want, cast blame on everyone, but one, and only one is responsible to prove the truth by “unsealing” all records to prove he reall is an American citizen, and he has not committed forgery, or any other crime! As US CITIZENS WE WOULD ALL BE INVESTIGATED, and JUSTICE SERVED IF A CRIME IS COMMITTED! NO ONE SHOULD EVER ACT ABOVE THE LAW AS WE ARE ALL ACCOUNTABLE FOR OUR ACTIONS! We cannot allow this as we are turning to a lawless nation where those that have power are not made accountable like we the people! Every State citizen has the right to know their President is properly vetted, and eligible according to the United States Constitution! When we as Americans see there is allegiance to other countries against America it is our duty to stand strong, and abolish a government that acts against the people! It is my opinion that he is not an American citizen, and hides the truth of who he is, and his true intentions!! It must STOP! Sheriff Arpaio, and the Cold Case Posse are not lying, and are upholdin, and defending the US CONSTITUTION! Set aside the politics, the parties, and see TRUTH TO SAVE AMERICA, and protect our FREEDOM!!!

  86. avatar
    Thomas Brown April 2, 2012 at 1:29 pm #

    Joy:
    No, the Cold Case Posse is not lying! These men are credible law men…The media has been threatened with an investigation if the report the EVIDENCE OF FRAUD, and many have quit their jobs!

    Say “Hi” to Bigfoot, Elvis, and the Easter Bunny for me.

  87. avatar
    Scientist April 2, 2012 at 1:32 pm #

    Joy is an odd name for someone who is so unhappy….

  88. avatar
    misha April 2, 2012 at 1:33 pm #

    Joy: We cannot allow this as we are turning to a lawless nation

    Yeah, just like Trayvon Martin in Florida.

  89. avatar
    Joy April 2, 2012 at 1:44 pm #

    Dear Mr Scientist,
    Russia reporting. Google it, as is other Countries non Communist… See WND WORKD NET DAILY THE ONLY NEWS REPORTERS NOT BLACKING OUT!
    Yes, I do know Mitt Romney is also not eligible ALSO! I am not a Republican if that is your
    point! I believe the leaders TELLING THE TRUTH ARE RAND PAUL, Ron Paul, Allen West! They are the patriots of America, and serve America, and not themselves!
    Remember when you are telling the truth you show everything… You are transparent!
    I believe GOD MADE MEN ALL EQUAL.. So race is not my issue! As SHERIFF JOE SAID ALL THAT HAS TO BE DONE IS SHOW MICROFILM, the sealed birth certificate in Hawaii, the records SELECTIVE SERVICE WILL NOT RELEASE TO PROVE THE SELECTIVE CARD IS REAL TO DO A PROPER VETTING, and investigation that was NEVER DONE BY THE VETTING COMMITTEE, but was done on John McCain to prove he was eligible!
    How could the vetting committe VETT WITH EVERYTHING SEALED?!! That is the proof! You seal, and hide the truth when you are not telling the truth!!

  90. avatar
    dunstvangeet April 2, 2012 at 1:47 pm #

    Joy:
    Why has the “sealed” Certified original birth certificate not been viewed to compare it with the one presented as the “real” one on White House website?

    It has. Quote from the person who viewed it. “I certify that this is a true abstract or copy of the record on file in the Hawaii Department of Health. Alvin T. Onaka, State Registrar”

  91. avatar
    JPotter April 2, 2012 at 1:48 pm #

    Joy: Mainstream media is a black out!

    No, no, no, birtherism is the black out.

    Denial of media coverage is a blackout.

    See the difference?

  92. avatar
    JPotter April 2, 2012 at 1:51 pm #

    Joy: See WND WORKD NET DAILY THE ONLY NEWS REPORTERS NOT BLACKING OUT!

    Ohhhhhhh, no, ma’am, WND is definitely blacking out.

    Out blacking.

    Maybe even outting blacks.

  93. avatar
    Joy April 2, 2012 at 1:52 pm #

    Hahahaha you all must be paid to try to make those that know the truth look stupid! You can only call names, and be sarcastic! I know what I say is true… You seal, you hide because you are not telling the truth! Hahaha you guys must be paid to cover up the truth! I trust JOE ARPAIO, MIKE ZULLO, Jerome CORSI, RAND Paul, RON PAUL, and ALLEN WEST OVER ANY OF YOU!! You have nothing to say that proves any truth to me…

  94. avatar
    bovril April 2, 2012 at 1:56 pm #

    So “joyless”

    What exactly gives you and these seditious birfoons the right to overturn the democratic process, the Constitution, the popular vote, Congress and the Electoral College…?

    Please I’m curious…

  95. avatar
    nbc April 2, 2012 at 2:05 pm #

    Joy: Why seal your records if you claim to be “transparent?”

    The document is sealed by the Department of Health of Hawaii but of course, they have provided true and accurate copies both as a long form and short form.

    President Obama has released both forms. How more transparent do you want him to be?

  96. avatar
    JoZeppy April 2, 2012 at 2:07 pm #

    Joy: Why has the “sealed” Certified original birth certificate not been viewed to compare it with the one presented as the “real” one on White House website?

    Because Hawaii doens’t let people view the originals. Is that hard to understand? Besides, it’s entirely unnecessary under the law.

    Joy: Why his the selective service card been stamped with year 80 when all others issued have been stamped with 4 digits 1980! The 80 is not centered for the date!

    Of course the 80 isn’t centered. That’s because there was a 19 infront of it that didn’t transfer when stamped. As to why? Who knows? There are countless reasons why a stamp may not transfer properly. The burden isn’t on us to explain why it happened. The burden is on you to show that none of these countless innocent explanations (bad stamp, bad ink pad, etc) could not be possible.

    Joy: Why seal your records if you claim to be “transparent?” the only reason to seal anything is you are hiding from the truth!

    Nothing has been sealed. You just aren’t entitled to see them under the law, any more than you would be entitled to see anyone else’s records.

    Joy: It doesn’t take a rocket scientist, or computer expert to see this!

    No, it takes a birther to see things that aren’t there….the rest of us call that hallucinating.

    Joy: You can argue all you want, cast blame on everyone, but one, and only one is responsible to prove the truth by “unsealing” all records to prove he reall is an American citizen, and he has not committed forgery, or any other crime!

    In this country, we have the thing known as “innocent until proven guilty.” The president does not have to prove he has not committed a crime. It is the burden of those accusing to come up with the proof. Something birther are sorely lacking. And the p

    Joy: You can argue all you want, cast blame on everyone, but one, and only one is responsible to prove the truth by “unsealing” all records to prove he reall is an American citizen, and he has not committed forgery, or any other crime!

    You must really hate this county and our laws. You see we have this long standing tradition of “innocent until proven guilty.” No one, not even that scary colored guy in the white house, have to prove they have “not committed forgery, or any other crime.” The burden is on those making the accusations to prove he has committed a crime. And while the President has no burden to prove anything, he has done more to prove his citizenship than any President (or candidate, for that matter) before him.

    Joy: As US CITIZENS WE WOULD ALL BE INVESTIGATED, and JUSTICE SERVED IF A CRIME IS COMMITTED! NO ONE SHOULD EVER ACT ABOVE THE LAW AS WE ARE ALL ACCOUNTABLE FOR OUR ACTIONS!

    And I’m sure if you had actual evidence a crime was committed, we all wouldn’t be looking at you like you were a crazy woman, dressed in rags, screaming on a street corner.

    Joy: We cannot allow this as we are turning to a lawless nation where those that have power are not made accountable like we the people!

    Well…that is an entirely different discussion…

    Joy: Every State citizen has the right to know their President is properly vetted, and eligible according to the United States Constitution!

    He was….and if you don’t think so, you can always vote against him….but somehow, I don’t think there is any concern that voting for him was ever a serious consideration…you just don’t like the fact that other people get to vote for him.

    Joy: When we as Americans see there is allegiance to other countries against America it is our duty to stand strong, and abolish a government that acts against the people!

    Election day is 7 months away…have at it.

    Joy: It is my opinion that he is not an American citizen, and hides the truth of who he is, and his true intentions!!

    No one cares what your opnion is. If you can prove something, please do. If all you’re going to do is rant and wave you arms in the air while shouting baseless b.s., then be ready to be treated like the nut you are.

    Joy: It must STOP! Sheriff Arpaio, and the Cold Case Posse are not lying, and are upholdin, and defending the US CONSTITUTION!

    Sure they are. Then where are the charges? Referral to a DA? Why is it so easy to disprove everything in their silly report? Perhaps they aren’t lying, and there just grossly incompetent.

    Joy: Set aside the politics, the parties, and see TRUTH TO SAVE AMERICA, and protect our FREEDOM!!!

    Funny how all birthers are on the far right, but those of us that think you guys are insane come from both sides of the political specturm. I think we’re already set politics aside to come to the conclusion that birthers are insane.

  97. avatar
    nbc April 2, 2012 at 2:07 pm #

    Joy: Sheriff Arpaio, and the Cold Case Posse are not lying, and are upholdin, and defending the US CONSTITUTION!

    Then why have they not hired real experts, why have they not filed any charges? Please explain to us why they instead are interested in getting the media interested?

    And why is their research so easily debunked?

    Have you asked yourself those questions? Or is there no Joy in that.

  98. avatar
    JPotter April 2, 2012 at 2:09 pm #

    I had to look up Allen West. That guy? This has to be parody.

  99. avatar
    Joy April 2, 2012 at 2:09 pm #

    Poor J Potter…your point? WORKD NET DAILY IS PRINTING THE TRUTH, but there are some that can never face truth! I understand that! They have spent their whole lives being lied to, and lying… They start to believe their lies! I have a heart for anyone that has grown up this way! They never asked to live like this! To live a lie is always having to dodge the truth, make up more lies! People that lie get caught up in a web of lies, and are eventually found out! The truth is what sets us all free! To be honest is the best, and gives us peace, and a good conscience! We make our own choices to do right, or not! We will all leave here with nothing, but love, and how we have treated each other! I always strive for truth, and doing what is right! I believe we are all accountable, and responsible for our own actions! We will all come face to face with JESUS WHETHER you believe it or not, and will be accountable. We can face him doing good, or evil! I believe HE LOVES US ALL EVERY RACE, as he made us in HIS OWN IMAGE! He loves variety and is very proud! I pray we all seek truth, and never hide it.. As it really is the best way to live! GOD BLESS, JOY. BYE BYE!!!

  100. avatar
    nbc April 2, 2012 at 2:09 pm #

    Joy: Hahahaha you all must be paid to try to make those that know the truth look stupid!

    You are doing fine all by yourself Joy. But have you asked yourself why you allow others to make you look foolish? Does it not bother you that you have been so manipulated?

  101. avatar
    BillTheCat April 2, 2012 at 2:10 pm #

    Joy: words words words word salad

    You don’t really “post” so much as you do spew blocks of cut and paste words.

    Something you birthers will never learn – posting a big block of unbroken text pasted from Birther Talking Points 101 does nothing to further your “argument”, such as it is.

    And Allen West? ROFL. That guy is a tool and will be drummed out of office in the next election he is up for.

    “Nothing to say that proves any truth to me” – well there you have it – the intelligent razor sharp mind of the birther in full display, like a brick wall refusing to listen to reason or reality for that matter. That statement alone qualifies you for a full ban here, IMO, since you’ve already stated you won’t listen or even have a conversation. Posting a block of text is not a “conversation”, honey.

  102. avatar
    nbc April 2, 2012 at 2:10 pm #

    Joy: We will all come face to face with JESUS WHETHER you believe it or not, and will be accountable.

    Funny how you mention Jesus. What would he say when people allow themselves to so easily be manipulated by the ‘dark forces’?

    Come on Joy, help us understand why you are so easily fooled?

  103. avatar
    nbc April 2, 2012 at 2:12 pm #

    So let’s help Joy find her path to her Lord and help her understand why President Obama has been shown to be born on US soil by all credible data, which shows a consistent and coherent picture.

    So why does Joy believe lies and misrepresentations?

  104. avatar
    nbc April 2, 2012 at 2:14 pm #

    “We hope that issuing certified copies of the original Certificate of Live Birth to President Obama will end the numerous inquiries related to his birth in Hawai„i,” Hawai„i Health Director Loretta Fuddy said. “I have seen the original records filed at the Department of Health and attest to the authenticity of the certified copies the department provided to the President that further prove the fact that he was born in Hawai„i.”

    Ouch…

  105. avatar
    Scientist April 2, 2012 at 2:15 pm #

    Joy: Dear Mr Scientist

    Please, that’s DR Scientist. Thank you.

  106. avatar
    nbc April 2, 2012 at 2:17 pm #

    Joy, the Doc is correct that the Cold Case Posse’s “research” is of quite poor quality when they make claims that are so easily disproven as inaccurate…

    Did they lie? Or are they just blinded by their bias? Either way, do not expect much from Arpaio and his team, they will never file official charges, or testify in courts.

    And I am sure you know why…

  107. avatar
    Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter April 2, 2012 at 2:24 pm #

    Joy:
    Poor J Potter…your point? WORLD NET DAILY IS PRINTING THE TRUTH, but there are some that can never face truth! I understand that! They have spent their whole lives being lied to, and lying… They start to believe their lies!

    OMG, World Net Daily wouldn’t know the Truth if it bit them where they sit down. Have you read the latest Corsi whopper??? The Bill Gwatney murder one, and some goober named Bettina Viviano???

    WND has nothing but contempt for its readers.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  108. avatar
    JoZeppy April 2, 2012 at 2:27 pm #

    Joy: Hahahaha you all must be paid to try to make those that know the truth look stupid!

    I think George Soros is over-paying us, because, you certainly make our jobs easy.

    Joy: You can only call names, and be sarcastic!

    That is not true. First we point out all the glaring errors in your claims…then we call you names and be sarcastic.

    Joy: I know what I say is true

    Most insane people believe their delusions….why should you be any different?

    Joy: seal, you hide because you are not telling the truth!

    That would be a nice theory, except for the fact that the President didn’t seal anything.

    Joy: Hahaha you guys must be paid to cover up the truth!

    That’s right. Everyone who disagrees with you must be paid off. It can’t possiblely have anything to do with the fact that your rants have no support in fact or law.

    Joy: I trust JOE ARPAIO, MIKE ZULLO, Jerome CORSI, RAND Paul, RON PAUL, and ALLEN WEST OVER ANY OF YOU!!

    And my 3 year old daugher believes in the Easter Bunny…so what’s your point?

    Joy: You have nothing to say that proves any truth to me…

    The fact that you’re a birther already proves that you’re closed to actually looking at the facts, but thank you for admitting to all that you’re not interested in actually examining the evidence.

  109. avatar
    nbc April 2, 2012 at 2:35 pm #

    Squeeky Fromm, Girl Reporter: WND has nothing but contempt for its readers.

    Indeed. But their readers invite it on themselves.. Fools

  110. avatar
    JPotter April 2, 2012 at 2:36 pm #

    Joy: To live a lie is always having to dodge the truth, make up more lies! People that lie get caught up in a web of lies, and are eventually found out! The truth is what sets us all free! To be honest is the best, and gives us peace, and a good conscience! We make our own choices to do right, or not! We will all leave here with nothing, but love, and how we have treated each other! I always strive for truth, and doing what is right! I believe we are all accountable, and responsible for our own actions!

    And let the people say, “AMEN!”

  111. avatar
    El Diablo Negro April 2, 2012 at 2:46 pm #

    Hello boys and girls, this is your old pal, Stinky Wizzleteats
    This is a song about a whale, NO this is a song about being happy
    Thats right!
    Its the happy happy, joy joy song!

    Happy happy, joy joy
    Happy happy, joy joy
    Happy happy, joy joy
    Happy happy, joy joy
    Happy happy, joy joy
    Happy happy, joy joy
    Happy happy, joy joy joy

    I dont think your happy enough, thats right!
    I’ll teach you to be happy!
    I’ll teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    Now boys and girls, lets try it again…

  112. avatar
    Thomas Brown April 2, 2012 at 2:52 pm #

    Joy: ” Sheriff Arpaio, and the Cold Case Posse are not lying, and are upholdin, and defending the US CONSTITUTION!”

    Would it come as a surprise to you that even now there is an investigation into whether Joe “Pink Panties” Arpaio assisted Timothy McVeigh in the 2nd most deadly terrorist attack on US soil in history? McVeigh lived in Arizona, and had many of the same anti-Government-group contacts as Joe Arpaio. Arpaio also had the ability to buy large quantities of explosives and other supplies that McVeigh wouldn’t have easily been able to obtain.

    As yet, nobody is accusing Arpaio of committing (or conspiring to commit) this crime. But his silence concerning this investigation is deafening. He has done nothing to prove he wasn’t involved.

    What is he hiding?

  113. avatar
    Scientist April 2, 2012 at 3:13 pm #

    Joy: We will all come face to face with JESUS WHETHER you believe it or not, and will be accountable.

    I haven’t checked with Jesus, but his Dad is a BIG Obama supporter. Why do you guys think you’ve lost all those court cases?

  114. avatar
    Joy April 2, 2012 at 4:00 pm #

    HAHAHAHA you people are hilarious! Michelle Obama said his home country is Kenya!! He has said he is Muslim when speaking! That is a lie about Sheriff Arpaio! It is amazing to me how you all try to attack people to make them think they are wrong! It won’t work on me guys! I don’t fall for your verbal attack! There is absolutely nothing any of you can do to stop the truth! You have the right to believe what you want, and I have the right to believe what I want! You think everyone investigating is lying! You all wouldn’t know truth if it slapped you right in the face! Did you know most Americans believe he has not told the truth about who he is, or what his intentions are! America is bankrupt, and the days are over blaming everyone else!
    Why copies, computer images… Where is the original, where is the original selective service card, where is the passport showing COUNTRY?? Let the “experts” see everything! Let there be a complete investigation!CITIZENS HAVE QUESTIONS!!! Answer them if you are transparent! Open all records, put it to rest in court! Why would you have a Social Security card where you never lived? CONNEICUT verified by Social Security Administration!! There are many questions about what is going on… And as Americans we have the right to know the truth!! You guys are showing you are bought, and paid for!!!!

  115. avatar
    Scientist April 2, 2012 at 4:04 pm #

    There is this interesting gramatical invention called the period. It looks like this “.” Most sentences should end in that and only an occasional few should end in “!”.

  116. avatar
    nbc April 2, 2012 at 4:08 pm #

    Joy: HAHAHAHA you people are hilarious! Michelle Obama said his home country is Kenya!!

    Poor Joy, but God will understand…

  117. avatar
    y_p_w April 2, 2012 at 4:13 pm #

    Joy: Why copies, computer images… Where is the original, where is the original selective service card, where is the passport showing COUNTRY?? Let the “experts” see everything! Let there be a complete investigation!CITIZENS HAVE QUESTIONS!!! Answer them if you are transparent! Open all records, put it to rest in court! Why would you have a Social Security card where you never lived? CONNEICUT verified by Social Security Administration!! There are many questions about what is going on… And as Americans we have the right to know the truth!! You guys are showing you are bought, and paid for!!!!

    Why copies or computer images? Glad you asked. In the late 20th Century onwards, technology has moved on to the point where many “original” records only exist in electronic form. Many paper documents are simply scanned and only an electronic image is kept and the original shredded. My bank does that with checks. I’d have to pay to receive the actual cancelled checks, but opt not to since I can get free electronic images. Many checks aren’t even sent in person. My payment authorizes the payee to perform an electronic transfer. Once I went to a doctor’s office where the check was sent into a scanner and I got the check back.

    Also – a lot of original paper documents and records are destroyed after some time, but with an image archived. This is the case with tax forms, although it’s probably even stranger these days with most taxes filed electronically. It’s been interesting when a potential lender has asked me for a copy of a tax form that I filed electronically.

    Here’s the passport showing country, where the State Dept seems to think Obama was born in Hawaii”

    http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-08-17/news/27072878_1_passport-birther-president-obama

    As for Connecticut, there have been many possible explanations, the simplest which is a zip code transcription error somewhere along the way. The SSA says that there’s really nothing about the geographic numbering system that really matters in the grand scheme of things, and that the address one provides only has to be a place where one can receive mail. If I’m on vacation for a month at a friend’s place, I could receive a copy of my SSN card there.

  118. avatar
    Thomas Brown April 2, 2012 at 4:22 pm #

    Joy:
    Michelle Obama said his home country is Kenya!!

    [She most certainly did not. That’s a lie, and it has been proven that it would have been impossible for BHO to be born in Kenya. Besides, there is not a scrap of evidence that says he was.]

    He has said he is Muslim when speaking!

    [A doctored tape, and you fell for it. Hilarious.]

    That is a lie about Sheriff Arpaio!

    [We’ll see about that. You’ll be able to write him next year in Cell Block D.]

    You have the right to believe what you want, and I have the right to believe what I want!

    [Sure. Say hi to Bigfoot for me!!!! There’s a difference: We believe evidence, and you believe nonsense with no proof.]

    Did you know most Americans believe he has not told the truth about who he is, or what his intentions are!

    [Nonsense. Just the really, really stupid people, mainly drooling Fox-watching morons. The majority, including sane Republicans, know it’s all a bunch of hooey.]

    Where is the original, where is the original selective service card, where is the passport showing COUNTRY??

    [He has a passport showing American Citizen. People have seen and touched the physical copies authenticated by the Republican Governor of Hawaii. Selective Service verified on the record that his document was there and was authentic. Again, You’ve been duped.]

    Why would you have a Social Security card where you never lived?

    [The SSA has stated, on the record, officially, that SS#s do not always correlate with birthplace or residence. Next.]

    You guys are showing you are bought, and paid for!!!!

    [Jeez, I wish.]

    Arpaio is a liar, a traitor, and a criminal. Sorry to have to break the news that your “messiah” is more like a Judas.

  119. avatar
    JPotter April 2, 2012 at 4:33 pm #

    Joy: LA-LA-LA-LA!!! You guys are showing you are bought, and paid for!!!!

    Check, please?

  120. avatar
    traderjack April 2, 2012 at 4:55 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Just as the birth certificate is confirmed by the State of Hawaii computer system that printed out the short form, the selective service registration is confirmed by the selective service computer system, a screen shot of which was provided via FOIA, and also verified with a selective service public system by several reporters

    And, again, are you , perhaps, forgetting that the HDOH has a proviso in the law that allows them to create, yes, create new birth certificates for government agencies, that need them for some reason.

    So , the birth certificates, not , necessarily Obama’s, but somewhere in the BC records of Hawaii there are created birth certificates and the necessary informtion to hide from the public the real facts.

    Now , if that is done by the HDOH, and the Feds with witnesses protection programs new identities, then the same thing would be able to be done with the SSS registration

    tthere is no surety in these things , if there ever was!

    And how would a citizen ever find out when it is all secret! And protected by the government.

    He who controls the identification records is the one who controls your life.

  121. avatar
    Scientist April 2, 2012 at 5:05 pm #

    traderjack: And, again, are you , perhaps, forgetting that the HDOH has a proviso in the law that allows them to create, yes, create new birth certificates for government agencies, that need them for some reason.
    So , the birth certificates, not , necessarily Obama’s, but somewhere in the BC records of Hawaii there are created birth certificates and the necessary informtion to hide from the public the real facts.

    Yes, and they also went back in time and created birth announcements in the newspaper. They also forced Stanley Ann Dunham to live in Hawaii, rather than Kenya so she would give birth there.

    But, if there are that many people working so hard to bend space-time to make Obama President, perhaps they are working for good rather than evil. Perhaps it is God who wants Obama as President. That would explain why the birthers have been such abject failures. Now, If I, an agnostic, could come up wiith that, why couldn’t you?

  122. avatar
    y_p_w April 2, 2012 at 5:10 pm #

    Scientist: Yes, and they also went back in time and created birth announcements in the newspaper. They also forced Stanley Ann Dunham to live in Hawaii, rather than Kenya so she would give birth there. But, if there are that many people working so hard to bend space-time to make Obama President, perhaps they are working for good rather than evil. Perhaps it is God who wants Obama as President. That would explain why the birthers have been such abject failures. Now, If I, an agnostic, could come up wiith that, why couldn’t you?

    I’m just wondering with this flight of fancy that jack-o has here, why the heck would anyone need to go into the HDOH archives and create a new one from scratch? They primarily operate off of computer records now, where the certified copy wouldn’t show any signs of its “original” form. Even before they went with a computer printout abstract, they had hand-transcribed abstracts at the Hawaii DOH.

  123. avatar
    nbc April 2, 2012 at 5:14 pm #

    traderjack: And, again, are you , perhaps, forgetting that the HDOH has a proviso in the law that allows them to create, yes, create new birth certificates for government agencies, that need them for some reason.

    So how did they get a birth certificate signed in 1961 by the attending physician and filed at that date?

    Making up more and more fantastic stories I notice… Fascinating… And so desperate

  124. avatar
    misha April 2, 2012 at 5:19 pm #

    Joy: We will all come face to face with JESUS WHETHER you believe it or not

    Not me. I’m Jewish. Also, Hercules is the son of Zeus and a human woman. Sound familiar?

    Joy: BYE BYE!!!

    Some parting advice: lay off the coffee and helium. And don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

  125. avatar
    justlw April 2, 2012 at 5:36 pm #

    traderjack: And, again, are you , perhaps, forgetting that the HDOH has a proviso in the law that allows them to create, yes, create new birth certificates for government agencies, that need them for some reason.

    Then I’m afraid you lose, because you have just claimed that we cannot obtain adequate certification of birth of anyone who claims to have been born in Hawaii. If we cannot do that for anyone, it is pointless to try to prove or disprove the particulars of one specific person, Barack Obama.

    The options would then seem to be:

    1. Never allow any Hawaiian to ever be President of the United States or, when you get down to it conduct any activity that requires proof of identity, age or location of birth; or,
    2. Accept the State of Hawaii’s authority on this.

    The US Constitution is quite clear on which option is the correct one.

    I know you’re not actually an American, but you’ll have to accept that here in the USA, we’re quite fond of the document.

  126. avatar
    y_p_w April 2, 2012 at 5:38 pm #

    traderjack: And, again, are you , perhaps, forgetting that the HDOH has a proviso in the law that allows them to create, yes, create new birth certificates for government agencies, that need them for some reason.

    But if you actually read the law, it only applies to create a new identity for people who were in reality born in Hawaii. The law includes requirements that the original Hawaii birth certificate be placed under seal.

    http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol06_ch0321-0344/hrs0338/hrs_0338-0017_0007.htm

    338-17.7 Establishment of new certificates of birth, when. (a) The department of health shall establish, in the following circumstances, a new certificate of birth for a person born in this State who already has a birth certificate filed with the department and who is referred to below as the “birth registrant”:

    So as you can see, it doesn’t apply to someone born outside of Hawaii. It would only be used to change a fact in the original birth certificate, such as name, DoB, the name of a parent, or perhaps place of birth in Hawaii.

  127. avatar
    y_p_w April 2, 2012 at 5:46 pm #

    justlw: traderjack: And, again, are you , perhaps, forgetting that the HDOH has a proviso in the law that allows them to create, yes, create new birth certificates for government agencies, that need them for some reason.
    Then I’m afraid you lose, because you have just claimed that we cannot obtain adequate certification of birth of anyone who claims to have been born in Hawaii. If we cannot do that for anyone, it is pointless to try to prove or disprove the particulars of one specific person, Barack Obama.

    However – I looked up the entire text of the law. Most of it applies to updates to paternity, discontinuence of parental rights, adoption (this would apply in pretty much any state), or an incorrectly entered sex or future sex change operation. The kicker is that the entire section (including the part about law enforcement requests) only applies to people who are actually born in Hawaii. If I’m reading this correctly, it couldn’t apply to a foreign birth that’s registered in Hawaii if a parent was a Hawaiian resident for at least a year.

    The section on a new birth certificate via a law enforcement request doesn’t even remove the original birth certificate or place it under seal, unlike all the other categories. Basically the law acts as if the original birth certificate still exists, but that this person most likely takes on a new identity. It doesn’t replace the original birth certificate, but rather adds to it.

  128. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 2, 2012 at 6:05 pm #

    It’s much worse than that because Hawaii’s vital statistics laws are pretty much in line with the rest of the country.

    For example, North Carolina:

    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/pdf/bysection/chapter_130a/gs_130a-93.pdf

    Illinois:

    Sec. 15.1. (1) The Director of the Department of State Police or his designee may obtain a registration of a fictitious vital record for the purpose and in the manner prescribed in this Section.
    (2) A registration of a fictitious vital record may be obtained pursuant to this Section only for law enforcement purposes in providing: (a) witnesses with new identification to protect them during and following criminal investigations or proceedings; and (b) law enforcement officers with new identification to enable them to escape detection while performing criminal investigations.

    justlw: The options would then seem to be:

    1. Never allow any Hawaiian to ever be President of the United States or, when you get down to it conduct any activity that requires proof of identity, age or location of birth; or,

  129. avatar
    JL from Sherman Oaks April 2, 2012 at 6:19 pm #

    Joy:
    … We will all come face to face with JESUS WHETHER you believe it or not, and will be accountable. We can face him doing good, or evil! I believe HE LOVES US ALL EVERY RACE, as he made us in HIS OWN IMAGE! He loves variety and is very proud! I pray we all seek truth, and never hide it.. As it really is the best way to live! GOD BLESS, JOY. …

    Joy, it’s nice that you have faith, but mine might not be the same as yours, and I find your remarks more than a little offensive.

    That said, I have to ask this question of you: Why do you think Linda Lingle (former Republican Gov. of Hawaii) and all the Hawaii DOH appointed and civil servant employees have stood behind the Certified copies of Obama’s birth certificate? How do you think so many people could be coerced to, as you believe, lie? Why would the current head of the HI DOH issue a letter of authentication, when the certified copy was issued last April? Do you believe the letter of authentication posted on the White House site is not real? And if it isn’t, why has the DOH website similarly posted it? What could the motivation or coercion be that could be so strong for so many people — without a single defection for four years now — to participate in such a huge, huge coverup?

  130. avatar
    Scientist April 2, 2012 at 6:25 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It’s much worse than that because Hawaii’s vital statistics laws are pretty much in line with the rest of the country.
    For example, North Carolina:
    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/pdf/bysection/chapter_130a/gs_130a-93.pdf

    At the end of the day, what difference does it make? Suppose Obama is really Michael Corleone in the witness protection program, so what? He’s been President for 3 years already. You either like what he’s done or you don’t. No one needs to even consider anything he did prior to January 2009, since his time in ooffice gives one moore than enough information.

    Besides, if Obama is Michael Corleone who is Romney?

  131. avatar
    misha April 2, 2012 at 6:26 pm #

    JL from Sherman Oaks: Why do you think Linda Lingle (former Republican Gov. of Hawaii)…stood behind the Certified copies of Obama’s birth certificate?

    Thank you. I have repeatedly said that Linda Lingle is Jewish. She felt McCain/Palin would be better for Israel, than Obama. If she could have found anything, the GOP would have used it with glee.

  132. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 2, 2012 at 6:29 pm #

    You talk about truth, but then you say: “you guys must be paid to cover up the truth!”

    I know that’s not true, and I know that you have no justification to believe it’s true. You have basically borne false witness against your neighbor right there.

    Just a word of caution: you have placed your trust in the wrong people.

    Aside: I find it remarkable that lots of birthers come here and accuse me and others of spreading lies, only they never can quite get around to mentioning what specifically the lie is. I can point to birther lies all day. Why can’t they do the same?

    Joy: Hahahaha you all must be paid to try to make those that know the truth look stupid! You can only call names, and be sarcastic! I know what I say is true… You seal, you hide because you are not telling the truth! Hahaha you guys must be paid to cover up the truth! I trust JOE ARPAIO, MIKE ZULLO, Jerome CORSI, RAND Paul, RON PAUL, and ALLEN WEST OVER ANY OF YOU!! You have nothing to say that proves any truth to me

  133. avatar
    JPotter April 2, 2012 at 6:37 pm #

    Scientist: if Obama is Michael Corleone who is Romney?

    Carlo.

    Gingrich is Tattaglia.

    Santorum is a bit harder to place ….. Flanders has no place in that world.

  134. avatar
    Scientist April 2, 2012 at 6:44 pm #

    JPotter: Santorum is a bit harder to place

    Maybe Cardinal Lamberto in Godfather III?

  135. avatar
    JPotter April 2, 2012 at 6:49 pm #

    Scientist: Maybe Cardinal Lamberto in Godfather III?

    They made a 3rd one? *cough* 😉

  136. avatar
    BillTheCat April 2, 2012 at 7:04 pm #

    Joy: HAHAHAHA you people are hilarious! Michelle Obama said his home country is Kenya!! He has said he is Muslim when speaking!

    Sorry but you are dumb even in birther terms. Got a link/source/shred of evidence for either of those allegations? Of course you don’t.

    Seriously, Doc? Can we 86 this mush mouth? This person has no intention of “discussing” anything and just spews her nonsense in blocks of text, repeated ad nauseum (heavy on the “nauseum”).

  137. avatar
    G April 2, 2012 at 7:09 pm #

    Ah yes, my favorite Ren & Stimpy classic! 8)

    El Diablo Negro: Hello boys and girls, this is your old pal, Stinky WizzleteatsThis is a song about a whale, NO this is a song about being happyThats right!Its the happy happy, joy joy song!Happy happy, joy joyHappy happy, joy joyHappy happy, joy joyHappy happy, joy joyHappy happy, joy joyHappy happy, joy joyHappy happy, joy joy joyI dont think your happy enough, thats right!I’ll teach you to be happy!I’ll teach your grandmother to suck eggs!Now boys and girls, lets try it again…

  138. avatar
    The Magic M April 3, 2012 at 6:53 am #

    bovril: Repeat after me…. “The map is not the country”…..

    There’s another argument regarding the PDF.

    The PDF is a low resolution scan. What was handed out at the press conference, plus the photos made by Savannah Guthrie of the actual certified copy, was high resolution stuff.
    Since their content is IDENTICAL to the PDF, birther theory requires us to assume either

    (a) The hi-res copies were somehow created from the lo-res PDF or

    (b) Instead of just forging the hi-res document and scanning that, someone decided to forge the PDF independently of the forged paper documents but with the exact same contents to the pixel.

    The odds for (a) are 0% (technically impossible), for (b) less than 0.0001% (next to impossible and idiotic).

    Remember, birther lore says that Obama (or someone close to him) forged the PDF in a hurry, that’s why it’s so “amateurish”. Yet the same person forged the paper documents, including raised seal, to look exactly like the PDF forgery, or vice versa, and managed to get it done pixel-perfect?

  139. avatar
    JPotter April 3, 2012 at 10:21 am #

    The Magic M: Yet the same person forged the paper documents, including raised seal, to look exactly like the PDF forgery, or vice versa,

    To expand on that a bit … it’s either, as M said, a serial forgery, or that these files were created through different workflows from a common ancestor. Presumably the document Guthrie photgraphed.

    A person can claim that this source document itself was forged, but the WH provided a paper trail saying it wasnt. Obama has shown his papers, and even his papers have papers.

    So the claim must be continued …. the images availbel to the public were reproduce from a forgery, which itself is backed by a forged paper trail. Already, Obama is at least complicit or duped, parts of his staff are in on it, his personal lawyer is at least complicit or duped, the state of Hawaii is complicit or duped …. the circles of conspiracy widen, like ripples on a disturbed pond. 😉

  140. avatar
    Joy April 3, 2012 at 11:19 am #

    This is the most negative people, and most vicious I have seen on any site! Don’t fall for their conquer, attack, and divide rhetoric! Very mean spirited… Didn’t read your posts… As there is nothing kind to read!!! Have a great day… I will!!!

  141. avatar
    Lupin April 3, 2012 at 11:34 am #

    Joy: This is the most negative people, and most vicious I have seen on any site! Don’t fall for their conquer, attack, and divide rhetoric! Very mean spirited… Didn’t read your posts… As there is nothing kind to read!!! Have a great day… I will!!!

    We are the Borg. Resistance is futile.

  142. avatar
    y_p_w April 3, 2012 at 11:42 am #

    The Magic M: There’s another argument regarding the PDF.

    The PDF is a low resolution scan. What was handed out at the press conference, plus the photos made by Savannah Guthrie of the actual certified copy, was high resolution stuff.
    Since their content is IDENTICAL to the PDF, birther theory requires us to assume either

    (a) The hi-res copies were somehow created from the lo-res PDF or

    (b) Instead of just forging the hi-res document and scanning that, someone decided to forge the PDF independently of the forged paper documents but with the exact same contents to the pixel.

    There was our special guest who stated that he could produce a “better copy” that was sharper than the photos that Guthrie took using the WH PDF as a source document. At least before he got blocked. I guess his last hurrah was to sent Doc C his result, which looked horrible. It looked like the WH PDF, only with all the pencil marks wiped out and the background looking really funky. It had all the problems that I said it would have, only he insisted that one could get a great looking document using the WH PDF as the source.

    I’d also have a hard time believing that anyone could do it exactly. The photos that Guthrie took had all the “basketweave” pattern aligning perfectly with the background of the WH PDF.

    What I would like to see are the original photos that Guthrie took. The upload to Lockerz obviously involved some sort of downsizing. The blowup still looks much sharper than the WH PDF, but I’d love to see the original with all its details and probably no “jaggies”.

  143. avatar
    Thrifty April 3, 2012 at 11:51 am #

    Sounds like someone has never read the comments section on any given Yahoo News article.

    Joy:
    This is the most negative people, and most vicious I have seen on any site! Don’t fall for their conquer, attack, and divide rhetoric! Very mean spirited… Didn’t read your posts… As there is nothing kind to read!!! Have a great day… I will!!!

  144. avatar
    bovril April 3, 2012 at 11:58 am #

    Oh, not to worry “joyless” we are all going to have a wonderful day…in fact we are looking forward to another very good 4 years with the Presidents second term.

  145. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 3, 2012 at 12:08 pm #

    Joy: This is the most negative people, and most vicious I have seen on any site! Don’t fall for their conquer, attack, and divide rhetoric! Very mean spirited… Didn’t read your posts… As there is nothing kind to read!!! Have a great day… I will!!!

    You haven’t gone to any birther sites have you?

  146. avatar
    Thomas Brown April 3, 2012 at 12:08 pm #

    y_p_w: There was our special guest who stated that he could produce a “better copy” that was sharper than the photos that Guthrie took using the WH PDF as a source document… which looked horrible.It looked like the WH PDF, only with all the pencil marks wiped out and the background looking really funky.

    I saw that. He/she thought we would be fooled by simply using some sort of smoothing function. The letters did look better, but that’s not the same thing as higher resolution, now is it?

  147. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) April 3, 2012 at 12:10 pm #

    JPotter: the images availbel to the public were reproduce from a forgery, which itself is backed by a forged paper trail. Already, Obama is at least complicit or duped, parts of his staff are in on it, his personal lawyer is at least complicit or duped, the state of Hawaii is complicit or duped …. the circles of conspiracy widen, like ripples on a disturbed pond.

    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  148. avatar
    nbc April 3, 2012 at 12:19 pm #

    Joy:

    This is the most negative people, and most vicious I have seen on any site!

    Translation. The Doc is right and I have nothing to contribute to explain why the Cold Case Posse missed these simple facts.

    Joy is still under the magical spell of the dark side…

  149. avatar
    Thomas Brown April 3, 2012 at 12:49 pm #

    Joy:
    This is the most negative people, and most vicious I have seen on any site!

    What we are doing is simply aggressively defending the Constitution, respect for the Presidency, and the Rule of Law; we cannot help but be negative about those who would destroy them. Like the traitor, liar, and criminal Joe “Pink Panties” Arpaio and hate-filled self-serving propagandist Jerome “Swift Butt” Corsi.

    Excuuuuuse me for loving America.

  150. avatar
    nbc April 3, 2012 at 1:10 pm #

    Thomas Brown: What we are doing is simply aggressively defending the Constitution, respect for the Presidency, and the Rule of Law; we cannot help but be negative about those who would destroy them.

    It may appear to those who hold foolish and poorly informed beliefs, that objections to them are ‘mean and vicious’ but it is in fact an act of love meant to educate the person as to his or her follies. It’s those who continue to let their fear and ignorance fester who have become disconnected from reality and their God.

    What surprises me is how effective Dr Conspiracy’s contributions have been in exposing the lack of diligence by the “Cold Case Posse”, and how this evokes such strong emotions in some people who have apparently invested much emotion in their work.

    It serves to show that relying on poorly informed data, to help guide once ignorance and fear, inevitably will end up make one look foolish. And that must hurt. But let’s not blame the messenger here…

  151. avatar
    Thomas Brown April 3, 2012 at 1:57 pm #

    nbc: It may appear to those who hold foolish and poorly informed beliefs, that objections to them are mean and vicious’…

    It serves to show that relying on poorly informed data, to help guide once ignorance and fear, inevitably will end up make one look foolish. And that must hurt. But let’s not blame the messenger here…

    Exactly put. How can one politely say “everything you now believe is utter hogwash, no doubt fed to you by people you foolishly respect as honorable folks, who are in fact lying charlatans”?

  152. avatar
    JPotter April 3, 2012 at 1:57 pm #

    nbc: It may appear to those who hold foolish and poorly informed beliefs, that objections to them are mean and vicious’ but it is in fact an act of love meant to educate the person as to his or her follies.

    I recommend intervention and a lengthy followup of deprogramming. This will require professional assistance.

  153. avatar
    Jim April 3, 2012 at 2:24 pm #

    Joy:
    This is the most negative people, and most vicious I have seen on any site! Don’t fall for their conquer, attack, and divide rhetoric! Very mean spirited… Didn’t read your posts… As there is nothing kind to read!!! Have a great day… I will!!!

    Actually, I’m a very positive person. When this first came up 3+ years ago, I read and looked at all the evidence presented. It was actually a wonderful thing that happened, I relearned the constitution and what it means to be a citizen of this great country. The web has allowed both the accusers and the defenders to take their cases directly to the people and hash out their different interpretations of the evidence and make their own decisions. Decisions that will be recorded in the ballot boxes around the country this November. Our forefathers, who would have had no inkling of the power of the internet, would be proud that the final arbiter will be the people voting and not some judge in deciding this issue of who will lead this great country.

  154. avatar
    Sef April 3, 2012 at 2:48 pm #

    Jim: Actually, I’m a very positive person.When this first came up 3+ years ago, I read and looked at all the evidence presented.It was actually a wonderful thing that happened, I relearned the constitution and what it means to be a citizen of this great country.The web has allowed both the accusers and the defenders to take their cases directly to the people and hash out their different interpretations of the evidence and make their own decisions.Decisions that will be recorded in the ballot boxes around the country this November.Our forefathers, who would have had no inkling of the power of the internet, would be proud that the final arbiter will be the people voting and not some judge in deciding this issue of who will lead this great country.

    We, also, unlike Orly, have gotten quite a good legal education. Probably enough to pass the California bar exam, if she is any indication.

  155. avatar
    nbc April 3, 2012 at 2:53 pm #

    Thomas Brown: Exactly put. How can one politely say “everything you now believe is utter hogwash, no doubt fed to you by people you foolishly respect as honorable folks, who are in fact lying charlatans”?

    It gets worse as more and more conservatives become more and more skeptical about science. And while skepticism by itself is not necessarily bad, it explains why people’s religious beliefs force them to reject the science of evolution or global warming.

    It is hard when one is told relentlessly, misrepresentations of scientific understanding by people you have come to ‘trust’ and then reject them based on a more objective standard.

    How did this happen? Gauchat theorizes that it came about because the most educated conservatives are also the most politically engaged and the most likely to seek information that conforms to their ideology — and in recent years they’ve been able to find it in spades. Right-wing think tanks, funded by corporate interests to undermine the scientific consensus on such expensive-to-fix phenomena as climate change, have proliferated, as have conservative cable-TV networks, blogs and radio talk shows. In general, these outlets are talking to a well-educated audience. And they’re presenting a very one-sided view of scientific issues.

    Source: LA Times

    It’s sad that people place their trust in sources that effectively betray them and force them to look foolish.

  156. avatar
    Arthur April 3, 2012 at 2:56 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): You haven’t gone to any birther sites have you?

    Good point. There is a considerable difference between the ridicule directed at birther arguments at obamaconspiracy and the invective found at sites like Obama Release Your Records or drkates view. For example, at ORYR, the first comment following an article titled “Adolf H*tler and Obama’s Illegal Alien Aunt Able to Donate to Obama 2012” says,

    “fake, fraud, scum, phoney, a**hole = obum the kenyan fraud may he go to hell!”

    And this comes from a website that says it must moderate its comments because of too many, “Obama defenders constant porn spam and threatening comments.”

    Apparently, however, errors in punctuation are always welcolme.

    (Asterisks used to avoid Dr. C.’s moderation filter.)

  157. avatar
    G April 3, 2012 at 3:56 pm #

    Yeah. Sadly, there seems to be way too much intentional systemic misinformation on the Right. A lot of otherwise good people have simply been suckered and brainwashed into buying into a lot of imaginary bogeymen, simply because they have put their faith in the wrong authoritarian sources – one’s who only served to con them and use them…

    nbc: It’s sad that people place their trust in sources that effectively betray them and force them to look foolish.

  158. avatar
    y_p_w April 3, 2012 at 4:07 pm #

    G: Yeah. Sadly, there seems to be way too much intentional systemic misinformation on the Right. A lot of otherwise good people have simply been suckered and brainwashed into buying into a lot of imaginary bogeymen, simply because they have put their faith in the wrong authoritarian sources – one’s who only served to con them and use them…

    Even after nearly a year, we still hear of the BS claims that Kenya didn’t exist as a name until independence in 1964, that Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital was named something else in 1961 (possibily even a children’s hospital if it fits into their narrative), and that “African-American” was listed on the birth certificate. Heck – we even know as far back as 2008 that the race of Obama Sr. was listed as “African”.

  159. avatar
    G April 3, 2012 at 4:28 pm #

    Just about everything you mentioned goes back much farther than a year. All of those memes have been around in some form since at least early 2009 or late 2008 and sometimes even earlier than that…

    It works the same way that FOAF urban legends and fake chain email rumours never die and keep popping up time and time again, with only a slightly new twist each time…

    y_p_w: Even after nearly a year, we still hear of the BS claims that Kenya didn’t exist as a name until independence in 1964, that Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital was named something else in 1961 (possibily even a children’s hospital if it fits into their narrative), and that “African-American” was listed on the birth certificate. Heck – we even know as far back as 2008 that the race of Obama Sr. was listed as “African”.

  160. avatar
    JPotter April 3, 2012 at 5:21 pm #

    G: with only a slightly new twist each time…

    Yep, except those tightwad birther prophets don’t even bother to entertain us with a twist. They just rehash the same crap word for word!

    It’s almost like they don’t believe in evolution or something. The memes are not only true, but pure. Gospel pure. No need for refining … as if they are of divine origins … truth sprung from the void.

    😉

  161. avatar
    y_p_w April 3, 2012 at 5:40 pm #

    G: Just about everything you mentioned goes back much farther than a year. All of those memes have been around in some form since at least early 2009 or late 2008 and sometimes even earlier than that…It works the same way that FOAF urban legends and fake chain email rumours never die and keep popping up time and time again, with only a slightly new twist each time…

    I remember hearing about the “African-American” thing when the COLB was the only document released by anyone associated with Obama. However, the Kapiolani name issue didn’t seem to be an issue (it was valid enough when the birthers were touting the Nordyke certificates) until April 27. Same thing with Kenya named on the birth certificate. It’s amazing how they can take something that is true (Kenya was once known as The British East African Protectorate and the hospital was once known as Kapiolani Maternity Home), don’t find out the dates the names changed, and come to conclusions based on that.

    Then of course there’s the absolutely absurd notion that the only form of a legitimate “long form” would look like the photostats of the Nordyke twins. Technology moves on unless you’re a birther. I guess we need to return to manual typewriters and ditto paper.

  162. avatar
    G April 3, 2012 at 6:54 pm #

    April 27th of what year? Your conclusion here is simply wrong, as that meme had already been floating out there since the very early days of Birtherism.

    Look, although the original focus of Birtherism was mainly to flog the “born in Kenya” meme, many of the other Birther bits of insinuating rumour and doubt about his HI birth story were swirling along in that mix as part of the Birther “arguments” even back then.

    Because the COLB does not include birth hospital information as part of its fields, this was a piece of information that wasn’t conclusively verifed until the LFBC came out, true.

    However, there was a lot of other evidence long before the LFBC release that correctly pointed to Kapi’olani as the correct hospital and one of the memes of BIrtherism even back then was to push the erroneous Queens hospital mistake, which originated from an ameteur interview with Obama’s half-sister Maya, who is younger than Obama and woudn’t have known in the first place. The Birthers would trot out and push that weak chestnut a lot, for the sole purpose of trying to muddy the waters and cast doubts on the very compelling evidence that was building for Kapi’olani.

    So, as I stated, none of this was new at all and had memes of sowing confusion since the early days of Birtherism and not just something they started up with after the LFBC came out and answered that question.

    Just from this site alone, you can see that Doc was addressing evidence for Kapi’olani as far back as Jan 26 in 2009:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/more-testimony-obama-was-born-in-k/#more-1602

    On 2/7/2009, Doc. C made reference to how Birthers were already working hard to cast doubt on Obama’s Honolulu birth, by sowing doubts that the hospitals are reliable sources. Heck, even Mad Orly was very active in that wing of attack way back then:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/02/what-you-dont-know/#more-1869

    Calls to Honolulu Hospitals
    You may have heard that someone called all the hospitals in Honolulu and they said they had no record that Obama or his Mother was ever a patient there. Orly Taitz said this in her National Press Club appearance. Do you know the names of anyone who made those calls? (Hospital spokespersons say they are prohibited by federal privacy laws from saying anything.)

    But the big event that really brought the Birther memes of discrediting hospitals into full force was way back in May of 2009, when Obama wrote the letter to Kapi’olani (which they proudly published), establishing that as his place of birth.

    Doc C. wrote about that at the time as well on 5/25/2009:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/05/where-obama-was-born/

    No. It seems President Obama was born exactly where we always thought he was, at the Kapi’olani Medical Center in Honolulu.

    [The persistent Internet rumor that Barack Obama’s half sister Maya claimed that he was born at Queens Hospital, is not true.]

    From the tone of his phrasing on both of those statements I excerpted, two things are clear from even way back then:

    Those seriously looking into the issue (such as Doc C and the rest of us) were finding evidence that supported Kapi’olani.

    The Birther’s had already been working hard to push the Queens hospital story via the rumour mill, in order to sow doubts, even before then.

    y_p_w: I remember hearing about the “African-American” thing when the COLB was the only document released by anyone associated with Obama. However, the Kapiolani name issue didn’t seem to be an issue (it was valid enough when the birthers were touting the Nordyke certificates) until April 27.

  163. avatar
    y_p_w April 3, 2012 at 7:08 pm #

    I was only referring to the assertion that “Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital” wasn’t the hospital’s DBA name at of the time of Obama’s birth. I never heard of any birthers questioning that before the April 27, 2011 release of the LFBC. Before that time, the Nordyke long forms were held up by the birthers as exemplars of the information that one would see on a proper Hawaiian birth certificate.

    They were obviously trying to persuade people that the information could not have been real.

  164. avatar
    G April 3, 2012 at 7:08 pm #

    Arguments of the proper name for Kenya at various periods of time go way back to the early days of Birtherism too. Birthers brought forth various variations of them in support of their early arguments for speculating on a “born in Kenya” scenario. Whenver a new fake “Kenya BC” would appear, the issue came up as well. Whenever Birthers would come up with some angle to argue citizenship laws (Kenyan, British), the argument of how that area of the world was properly named and classified was part of the BIrther arguments and were filled with lots of misinformation that persists and pops up in new forms even today.

    Even the speculative scenario of American law in regards to *if* a young Ms. Dunham travelled and gave birth to a child overseas would be filled with Birther talking points trying to cite incorrect or misleading controlling Kenyan/British law and territorial claims of the time and deal with pushing those same muddied arguments.

    (As a side-note – it is interesting to go back and see these Birther discussions from this early time period, as this was before Leo’s “2 citizen parents” nonsense had gained sufficient traction…so many of the Birthers were comfortable conceding NBC to A single citizen parent born abroad back then – but attacked the possibility instead from the angle that Ms. Dunham was simply TOO YOUNG in controlling law for her citizenship to pass onto her foreign born child.)

    The whole point is that although the Birthers may have shifted HOW they argue these same misleading tidbits of their bad arguments over time, just about NONE of them are completely new or weren’t carryover bits of the Birther misinformation propaganda rumour mill from long before the LFBC release forced them to attempt to repackage these same drabs of misinformation in new ways…

    y_p_w: Same thing with Kenya named on the birth certificate. It’s amazing how they can take something that is true (Kenya was once known as The British East African Protectorate and the hospital was once known as Kapiolani Maternity Home), don’t find out the dates the names changed, and come to conclusions based on that.

  165. avatar
    G April 3, 2012 at 7:12 pm #

    But even that is just a weaker version of the same meme from before – the whole goal is trying to sow doubt on Kapi’olani as a true and credible origin by intentionally muddying the waters. It is simply another attack on that origin by distraction. A common con artist sleight of hand trick and a weaselly one at that.

    y_p_w: I was only referring to the assertion that “Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital” wasn’t the hospital’s DBA name at of the time of Obama’s birth. I never heard of any birthers questioning that before the April 27, 2011 release of the LFBC. Before that time, the Nordyke long forms were held up by the birthers as exemplars of the information that one would see on a proper Hawaiian birth certificate.They were obviously trying to persuade people that the information could not have been real.

  166. avatar
    G April 3, 2012 at 7:28 pm #

    Yes, that has always been a KEY part to the true goal of Birtherism. But that goes hand-in-hand with their desire to also cast a revisionist history on everything, including their OWN role in being disingenuous Birthers and they put a lot of effort in attempting to distract people from being aware that they are re-packaging elements of debunked myths they tried earlier and just constantly shifting the goal posts. They desperately try to hide revealing how intentionally biased they really are, because the truth only reveals that their intent has been a goal of smearing for smearing’s sake all along…

    It is easy for time to cause origins of statements and memes to blur… which the Birthers take advantage of whenever possible. Heck, their latest big push (from WND a few days ago and now all the other Birther blogs) is to try to falsely tie the Clinton’s to Birtherism and as being the originators of all of it. It is simply their latest meme and they repackage it as if this is some “new” breaking revelation. However, the material from their interview with this particular director is nothing new at all. The lady has a very LONG history of openly being a PUMA Birther and herself had made similar variations of those same silly claims that go all the way back to at least 2009 as well.

    There is nothing really new in BIrtherism at all, as it is all based on nonsense. It has just reached its saturation point where they have even run out of truly original tactics and angles to push. All they can do is try to repackage their old material and present it as “breaking news”.

    Even in the early days of this blog in 2009, the real origins of what became Birther memes had already been fading into the dustbin of forgotten (or overlooked) memory. Doc C had made some surprising finds when he started to take a further look back and investigate the source of the evolving memes from even way back then.

    I highly recommend 2 of his articles that he published way back in Feb 2009, in trying to back-trace the origins of Birtherism memes. I’ll share just some small interesting excerpts of what he found as well:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/02/where-did-born-in-africa-start-part-1/#more-2118

    Ah, but not born in Kenya. Must have jumped too far back…
    This is a cool article: The Wingnut Smear Machine at Work from June 2008.
    One might argue the Obama campaign ought to just release the mystery birth certificate to put the rumors to rest. But you know that would just set off a new round of rumors. Some rightie blogger would question the authenticity of the birth certificate, and that very evening Sean Hannity would look into a Faux Nooz camera and intone, why did Barack Obama release a forged birth certificate? Questions are being asked, after all.
    Velvet Hammer was calling for a Birth Certificate in March 2008, but the one article I found didn’t specifically suggest a Kenyan Birth.
    Wait, Mahalo (nice site, by the way) says it goes back to 2007:
    In 2007, rumors began that Obama was born in Kenya, and may not legally be a natural-born citizen. As pointed out in the National Review, if this is true then Obama and his relatives have been lying about his birthplace for most of his life. All official accounts point to Obama’s birth taking place in Hawaii, one of the 50 United States.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/02/where-did-born-in-africa-start-part-2/#more-2138

    On September 23, 2007, an article by John Ross in the Red: No al la guerra blog in the article NO EN NUESTRO NOMBRE! – UNA CARTA PARA EL MOVIMIENTO MEXICANO CONTRA LA GUERRA said:
    Nor can North American activists vote the war in Iraq away. The PRI/Dems’ presidential candidates for the party’s 2008 nomination are selling their anti-war credentials like sexoservadoras in La Merced, Hillary Clinton says she’s against the war but voted for the war and is proud of it. John Edwards, the liberal senator from North Carolina, is against the war but voted for it and is ashamed of it. Barak Obama, who was born in Kenya and attended an Islamic madrassa growing up in Indonesia, is against the war and never voted for it because he was not yet in congress when the vote was taken. Dennis Kucinich, the only real anti-war candidate (he campaigns for reparations to the Iraqis), is considered the lunatic fringe in this circus.

    y_p_w: They were obviously trying to persuade people that the information could not have been real.

  167. avatar
    misha April 3, 2012 at 8:47 pm #

    Joy: Don’t fall for their conquer, attack, and divide rhetoric!

    Hi Joy! Welcome back. I gave some thought about your comments, and did some research.

    I found a a Kenya BC (Obama’s?) , that may be just the smoking gun you are looking for.

  168. avatar
    John D April 6, 2012 at 9:19 pm #

    I just want ONE birther to explain to me what they think the “plan” behind the “conspiracy” might be. Who absolutely NEEDED a non-citizen to become President, and for what reason exactly?

    Their conspiracy is this grand plan stretching back decades and crossing international lines… All for what? To pass health care legislation? To take away your guns? To sign over the title for the U.S. to Kenya?

    I really don’t get what they think is happening. All I see is a bunch of hicks who can’t stand a half-black man in the White House and are doing anything they can to prove he actually is a “strange foreigner” the way they think he is.

    Any ideas?

  169. avatar
    Linda April 6, 2012 at 9:39 pm #

    John D: I just want ONE birther to explain to me what they think the “plan” behind the “conspiracy” might be.

    Exactly! If it were all so clear as they pretend, the whole 2 citizen-parent theory, etc. where were all the republican lawyers, judges, etc.? If it were all common knowledge, why didn’t they speak up?

  170. avatar
    misha April 6, 2012 at 9:56 pm #

    John D: All I see is a bunch of hicks who can’t stand a half-black man in the White House and are doing anything they can to prove he actually is a “strange foreigner” the way they think he is.

    That is exactly what is behind all this. A black family in the White House is driving them nuts.

  171. avatar
    The Magic M April 7, 2012 at 4:32 am #

    misha: A black family in the White House is driving them nuts.

    I think the only thing that would’ve infuriated them more would be if Obama had a white wife.
    A black man “not knowing his place” only takes 9/10 on the racist scale, he needs to “steal our women and taint our beloved white race with mixed offspring” to clinch the tenth point.

    John D: Who absolutely NEEDED a non-citizen to become President, and for what reason exactly?

    A typical crank explanation (remember these people believe it’s always about them personally) would be “to flip us off and show us they can get away with anything”. That’s how most of them try to explain away the generic “why would the almighty and top secret conspiracy make such obvious hints at its existence?” question.

  172. avatar
    Fifty-thousandth time is the charm April 7, 2012 at 8:52 am #

    As explained to me over and over again, the plan is to make us all slaves, after severely wiping out a bunch of us to keep us under control. Why? To rule the world. To turn the world into one big socialist utopian land of do-what-I-say. Either for secular reasons or demonic reasons, take your pick.

    The whole business with the birth certificate is so that the Rockefellers and the top members of the conspiracy can control him. Don’t do what we say? We will expose you!

    So I have been told fifty thousand times.

    May I just tell these guys to talk to you instead of me?

    John D:
    I just want ONE birther to explain to me what they think the “plan” behind the “conspiracy” might be. Who absolutely NEEDED a non-citizen to become President, and for what reason exactly?

    Their conspiracy is this grand plan stretching back decades and crossing international lines… All for what? To pass health care legislation? To take away your guns? To sign over the title for the U.S. to Kenya?

    I really don’t get what they think is happening. All I see is a bunch of hicks who can’t stand a half-black man in the White House and are doing anything they can to prove he actually is a “strange foreigner” the way they think he is.

    Any ideas?

  173. avatar
    J. Potter April 7, 2012 at 11:26 am #

    The Magic M: I think the only thing that would’ve infuriated them more would be if Obama had a white wife.

    He could add some minarets and a dome to the White House, at taxpayer expense of course. Install Louis Farrakhan as imam. I think I’ll go start that rumor.

    The Magic M: A typical crank explanation would be “to flip us off and show us they can get away with anything”.

    Shockingly, that a common comment dropping left by birfers! Magic M really is Magic! 😉

  174. avatar
    gorefan April 7, 2012 at 12:28 pm #

    Fifty-thousandth time is the charm: As explained to me over and over again,

    The voices in your head don’t count. Ignore them.

  175. avatar
    Linda April 7, 2012 at 12:34 pm #

    Thomas Brown: Nope… I do believe you’ve nailed it.Accurate, descriptive, and concise.

    I agree with you both. I know many of them rail against the notion, claiming the race card is played whenever one doesn’t agree with Obama. To me the proof lies in the fact that there is not the same ferver for demand of long-form birth certificates from ALL candidates.

  176. avatar
    Majority Will April 7, 2012 at 12:47 pm #

    gorefan: The voices in your head don’t count.Ignore them.

    My sarcasm meter went off with 50,000th’s post.

  177. avatar
    Fifty-thousandth time is the charm April 8, 2012 at 12:34 am #

    I wish they were in my head; then I could do something about them. Family, however, doesn’t stop, and if I could get them to spend their time “explaining” to John D. instead of me, I’d be a happy camper.

    gorefan: The voices in your head don’t count.Ignore them.

  178. avatar
    Dave April 14, 2012 at 8:59 am #

    What ever happened to the original BC Obama had up on his campaign website? Which one is a forgery? I think they both are.

  179. avatar
    Arthur April 14, 2012 at 9:38 am #

    Dave:

    I think you’re a forgery and I demand to see proof of your identity. If you put up an image of your b.c., however, I won’t believe it. The only thing you can do is frog-march yourself into prison and await deportation to the country that I say you’re from. Sounds kind of stupid huh? That’s what it’s like to read your post.

  180. avatar
    Northland10 April 14, 2012 at 10:57 am #

    Dave: I think

    Doubtful.

  181. avatar
    justlw April 14, 2012 at 12:00 pm #

    Dave:
    What ever happened to the original BC Obama had up on his campaign website?

    Funny story.

    After he put that up, most people realized the whole “Where’s the BC?” story was ridiculous, and, get this:

    He went on to be elected President.

    Kind of a big deal; it was in the all the papers. I’m surprised you missed it.

    So there’s more… even after he was elected, a small core of loonies, including a New York real estate developer with several bankruptcies under his belt, decided that somehow every government agency and news organization on the planet had been hoodwinked, or somehow intimidated, or bought off with gewgaws and trinkets like nuclear power plants.

    (I know! But this is really what they think!)

    So the White House went to the State of Hawaii and got them to issue a certified paper copy of the president’s “Long Form” birth certificate. The White House then showed this certificate to people, let them touch it, photograph it. Handed out high-res copies of it.

    Since this new BC incontrovertibly exists — I mean, with all this, who would even consider claiming that it never even existed? You’d have to be some kind of addled coot with his brains baked out by the desert sun to say it didn’t even exist. But I digress. — since it exists and is certified by the State of Hawaii, there is no longer any reason to show the document the Obama campaign posted in 2008. Although there are of course still plenty of sites with photographs from the time the campaign showed it, and let people examine it and photograph it, or you can always Wayback it.

    So there you are. Hope this helps!

    Which one is a forgery? I think they both are.

    Oh.

    Oh, I’m so sorry. So very, very sorry. I didn’t know. Best of luck, and I wish you a speedy recovery.

  182. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 14, 2012 at 12:51 pm #

    As far as I know, there has been no public report of the so-called short-form birth certificate since Factcheck.org photographed it in 2008 at the Chicago Obama campaign headquarters.

    For any number of reasons (which are all over this web site), I am certain that both certificates are authentic.

    Dave: What ever happened to the original BC Obama had up on his campaign website? Which one is a forgery? I think they both are.

  183. avatar
    J. Potter April 14, 2012 at 4:09 pm #

    Dave:
    What ever happened to the original BC Obama had up on his campaign website? Which one is a forgery?I think they both are.

    Since they both reflect the same information, that Obama was born in HI in 1961, it’d be pretty weird—and pointless—if only one was authentic.

  184. avatar
    gorefan April 14, 2012 at 7:38 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: As far as I know, there has been no public report of the so-called short-form birth certificate

    I believe a copy of the COLB was included in the package of materials handed out to reporters at the White House on April 27, 2011.

  185. avatar
    AnotherBird April 14, 2012 at 9:50 pm #

    Dave:
    What ever happened to the original BC Obama had up on his campaign website? Which one is a forgery?I think they both are.

    That is wonderful, however both birth certificates are authentic. It seems that the State of Hawaii has more say in the authenticity of birth certificates they issues, than a random person on line who just can’t accept that fact that Obama is a natural born citizen.