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Hawaii makes nice to Arizona

I told you so.

Given the law in Hawaii, I expect them to reply, verifying the information that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.

Now it’s official. The Associated Press reports that the State of Hawaii yesterday replied to Arizona Secretary of State Ken Bennett, with a verification that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.

Joshua Wisch, special assistant to Hawaii Attorney General David Louie, told The Associated Press in an email late Tuesday that the matter is resolved after Hawaii gave Arizona the verification it was looking for.

The lesson to be learned here is that you can argue back and forth in emails and get nowhere, but a little phone conversation can work things out.

So Arpaio sending a Deputy to get a verification that could have  been gotten over the phone looks silly. Asking for a verification of something that’s all over the State Department of Health Web site looks silly. Hawaii has now verified Obama’s birth in a document the White House hasn’t touched, making the “birth certificate is a forgery” folks look silly. I’m happy as a clam.

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259 Responses to Hawaii makes nice to Arizona

  1. avatar
    john May 23, 2012 at 10:40 am #

    Does anyone know the details of the verification.

  2. avatar
    john May 23, 2012 at 10:43 am #

    Sheriff Joe needs to continue to investigate. I don’t trust Hawaii and do believe they are lying. Remember Folks….Governor Abercrombie had already conducted an internal investigation for Obama’s birth certificate. The result? No birth certificate could be located….Only a state notation. This fact cannot be forgotten.

  3. avatar
    Woodrowfan May 23, 2012 at 10:46 am #

    Is Fox not allowing comment on that article, or am I just looking in the wrong place?

  4. avatar
    James M May 23, 2012 at 10:47 am #

    Hawaii has now verified Obama’s birth in a document the White House hasn’t touched, making the “birth certificate is a forgery” folks look silly.

    I can’t wait for the realization of the unintended consequence of this new development to start sinking in.

    Trouble is, it does nothing at all for the “two citizen parent” branch of birtherism, which is far more prevalent than the “foreign birth” branch.

    What’s the going bid for a civics textbook that specifies that “two citizen parent” rule which so many people remember learning in school so clearly?

  5. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 10:48 am #

    I don’t see Arpaio pulling an Emily Litella (“Never mind!). Where he goes from here we can only imagine but I guarantee you it will be entertaining to watch.

  6. avatar
    James M May 23, 2012 at 10:48 am #

    Woodrowfan:

    Is Fox not allowing comment on that article, or am I just looking in the wrong place?

    They know better than to allow comments on this one 🙂

  7. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 10:49 am #

    Woodrowfan: Is Fox not allowing comment on that article, or am I just looking in the wrong place?

    No comments allowed as far as I can see.

  8. avatar
    john May 23, 2012 at 10:56 am #

    I encourage Sheriff Joe to contact the following people:

    Hawaii State Senator Sam Slom – Senator Slom is well aware of the crooked practices for the Hawaii DOH.

    Corsi’s Mole – Claimed the birth certificate for Obama mysteriously appeared in the record books prior a few days before being released.

    Mike Evans – Gov. Abercrombie’s friend who was told by Abercrombie himself that no birth certificate exists for Barack Obama after having conducted an internal investigation. Mike Evans then told dozens and dozens of radio stations his revelation before being told apparently by Abercrombie or Hawaii to change his story.

    The previous DOH director – Was appointed by Abercrombie before Fuddy for a very short time. Resigned after very short time under mysterious circumstances. Some speculate that DOH director didn’t was continue to cover up like Fuddy and was apparently let go because of it.

  9. avatar
    donna May 23, 2012 at 11:00 am #

    i foresee the next headline:

    obama’s democratic officials in hawaii say he was born there

  10. avatar
    john May 23, 2012 at 11:08 am #

    A verification of birth of Obama in Hawaii means nothing unless Hawaii can provide every detail of the birth – How, Where, Why, and When. Remember folks backs in the 1960’s is very possible and easy for the grandparents to registered Obama in the birth system without him actually being born there.

    The counter evidence pointing to a Kenya birth is compelling and stunning. In John Woodman’s words I would use “irresistable.’

  11. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2012 at 11:24 am #

    I just wrote an email not 5 minutes ago that said “the birthers will say that it is nothing.”

    john: A verification of birth of Obama in Hawaii means nothing

  12. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2012 at 11:26 am #

    My understanding is that Bennett will make a statement today (Wednesday). I would, however, expect it to be a standard “Verification in Lieu of a Certified Copy” and I would not expect to see hospital information on it, although I could be wrong.

    john: Does anyone know the details of the verification.

  13. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2012 at 11:30 am #

    for john
    How:…..Result of sexual activity
    Where:..Kapiolani Hospital
    Why……Normal activity after 9 months

  14. avatar
    Xyxox May 23, 2012 at 11:37 am #

    Maybe this will finally shut the birthers up!

    Then again, if pigs could fly we’d all carry umbrellas.

  15. avatar
    Rickey May 23, 2012 at 11:38 am #

    john:

    The counter evidence pointing to a Kenya birth is compelling and stunning. In John Woodman’s words I would use “irresistable.’

    John Woodman would not do that, because he knows that the correct spelling is “irresistible.”

    What is with birthers and poor spelling?

  16. avatar
    Thomas Brown May 23, 2012 at 11:38 am #

    john:
    Sheriff Joe needs to continue to investigate.I don’t trust Hawaii and do believe they are lying. Remember Folks….Governor Abercrombie had already conducted an internal investigation for Obama’s birth certificate.The result?No birth certificate could be located….Only a state notation. This fact cannot be forgotten.

    You’re a hopeless friggin’ imbecile. That bogus WND-grade story was debunked by Abercrombie himself. He never said he couldn’t find one; what he discovered is that even a Governor needs a reason RECOGNIZED BY HAWAII LAW to access a birth record. The only thing he could access is the publicly available birth index, which he did, and it lists BHO born in Hawaii in August 1961.

    Making you a gullible liar.

    Yeesh. Morons…. can’t live with ’em, can’t shoot ’em.

  17. avatar
    Rickey May 23, 2012 at 11:39 am #

    John obviously has become unglued by this development.

  18. avatar
    Thomas Brown May 23, 2012 at 11:39 am #

    Rickey: John Woodman would not do that, because he knows that the correct spelling is “irresistible.”

    What is with birthers and poor spelling?

    Ummm…. perhaps that they’re dumber than dog snot?

  19. avatar
    JPotter May 23, 2012 at 11:40 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: My understanding is that Bennett will make a statement today (Wednesday). I would, however, expect it to be a standard “Verification in Lieu of a Certified Copy” and I would not expect to see hospital information on it, although I could be wrong.

    Wednesday statement cancelled?

    http://www.azcentral.com/news/politics/articles/2012/05/22/20120522obama-birth-hawaii-arizona-verification.html

    Perhaps Bennett is going to clam up and hope this goes away now. Whether he makes whatever he received public (it’s insufficient! Bennett is one of Them!), or stays mum (They Got To Him!), birtherism will carry on.

  20. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 11:43 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: My understanding is that Bennett will make a statement today (Wednesday). I would, however, expect it to be a standard “Verification in Lieu of a Certified Copy” and I would not expect to see hospital information on it, although I could be wrong.

    One story has Bennett saying he will post the info from Hawaii on his webiste this morning. So far nothing at http://www.azsos.gov/

  21. avatar
    y_p_w May 23, 2012 at 11:44 am #

    Thomas Brown: You’re a hopeless friggin’ imbecile. That bogus WND-grade story was debunked by Abercrombie himself. He never said he couldn’t find one; what he discovered is that even a Governor needs a reason RECOGNIZED BY HAWAII LAW to access a birth record. The only thing he could access is the publicly available birth index, which he did, and it lists BHO born in Hawaii in August 1961.

    Even his predecessor wasn’t allowed to view the birth record. Only employees of the DoH are allowed to view it. That’s of course why Gov Lingle had her Director check up on the original birth record on her behalf.

  22. avatar
    john May 23, 2012 at 11:45 am #

    Yes, Abercrombie had the Hawaii AG run interference for him when it started making major news that Abercrombie could not find the birth certificate. First Abercrombie had Evans backpedal his story and then he had the Hawaii AG run interference by stating that Abercrombie couldn’t release anything he finds if he continues his investigation. Remember, Abercrombie made his claim that no birth certificate exists in the middle of investigation and he could only find a state notation. The AG then provided cover by stating that it would useless to continue to investigation because Abercrombie couldn’t release what he might find anyway.

  23. avatar
    Mary Brown May 23, 2012 at 11:47 am #

    Birthers, I tell you that your memories are so short. The Republican Governor and her workers tried to set this to rest. They also said the President was born in Hawaii. But really, none of this matters. The Angel Gabriel could fly from heaven with an announcement and you would claim he was part of a conspiracy. You just cannot and will not recognize this President. You are really cowards, the lot of you. Sometimes events do not play out as we might wish. Brave people recognize this. Cowards retreat into fantasy. That is what you are.

  24. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 11:50 am #

    john: Sheriff Joe needs to continue to investigate. I don’t trust Hawaii and do believe they are lying.

    Couple questions John:

    Why would Hawaii lie about this? How would they keep the lid on it given the myriad people (of both political parties) involved in the process?

    But for the sake of discussion (and trying to understand what you want) let’s say they are lying: Exactly what role would Arpaio (or any local official outside Hawaii) do about it?

  25. avatar
    y_p_w May 23, 2012 at 11:50 am #

    CarlOrcas: One story has Bennett saying he will post the info from Hawaii on his webiste this morning. So far nothing at http://www.azsos.gov/

    It’s early. Of course once it’s up there will be a rash of birther memes.

    It’s a created PDF and there is no original document.

    Someone from the Obama camp threatened a family member.

    The Hawaii Dept of Health lies.

    I can’t see the seal.

    The seal doesn’t look like the seal on the Nordyke certificate, so it must be fake.

    Why isn’t it white on black like the Nordyke birth certificate?

    There was no Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital in 1961.

  26. avatar
    Jim May 23, 2012 at 11:53 am #

    Grab the popcorn. Bennett and Arpaio are now in direct conflict with each other! Wonder how long it will take before Arpaio opens an investigation of Bennett, that is his usual method of operation. 😀

  27. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 11:54 am #

    y_p_w: It’s early. Of course once it’s up there will be a rash of birther memes.

    Of course. A more interesting discussion might be to consider if there is anything that will ever convince the birthers?

    I know how I will vote on that one!

  28. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) May 23, 2012 at 11:57 am #

    john: A verification of birth of Obama in Hawaii means nothing unless Hawaii can provide every detail of the birth – How, Where, Why, and When. Remember folks backs in the 1960′s is very possible and easy for the grandparents to registered Obama in the birth system without him actually being born there. The counter evidence pointing to a Kenya birth is compelling and stunning. In John Woodman’s words I would use “irresistable.’

    How: He was born there
    Where: Honolulu, Hawaii
    Why: His parents got together maybe with some wine and had a wrestling match the result was 9 months later Barack was born
    When: August 4, 1961. See all questions answered.

  29. avatar
    jayHG May 23, 2012 at 11:57 am #

    john: I encourage Sheriff Joe to contact the following people:Hawaii State Senator Sam Slom – Senator Slom is well aware of the crooked practices for the Hawaii DOH.Corsi’s Mole – Claimed the birth certificate for Obama mysteriously appeared in the record books prior a few days before being released.Mike Evans – Gov. Abercrombie’s friend who was told by Abercrombie himself that no birth certificate exists for Barack Obama after having conducted an internal investigation. Mike Evans then told dozens and dozens of radio stations his revelation before being told apparently by Abercrombie or Hawaii to change his story.The previous DOH director – Was appointed by Abercrombie before Fuddy for a very short time. Resigned after very short time under mysterious circumstances. Some speculate that DOH director didn’t was continue to cover up like Fuddy and was apparently let go because of it.

    Well then encourage him on his website. Don’t you get tired of being alternately ridiculed and ignored over here???

  30. avatar
    john May 23, 2012 at 11:58 am #

    Hawaii has plenty of reasons to lie for Obama.

    Because Obama was supposed to be born there, Obama is Hawaii’s “Favorite Son” and will never do anything to harm.

    Because the LFBC PDF is a forgery with Hawaii’s stamp on it, Hawaii has no choice but state on the record that they have what the White House has.

    As for Lingle, she was GOP and in 2008 the GOP refused to look at the Obama eligibility issue because of media attack and racism.

    As for McCain, he is protecting his deal he cut with Obama – The Senate Resolution for NBC in exchange for McCain and the GOP to slient on Obama’s eligiblity problem.

  31. avatar
    justlw May 23, 2012 at 12:14 pm #

    john: I don’t trust Hawaii

    It is indeed a very shifty looking archipelago. Especially Maui: I think it’s trying to convince people it’s two islands.

  32. avatar
    justlw May 23, 2012 at 12:17 pm #

    Rickey: What is with birthers and poor spelling?

    They think squiggly red lines mean, “Awesome word choice, dude!”

  33. avatar
    gorefan May 23, 2012 at 12:26 pm #

    justlw: It is indeed a very shifty looking archipelago

    Hawaii is shifty. The hot spot it sits on is stationary and the rotation of the Pacific Plate created the islands.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hawaii_hotspot_cross-sectional_diagram.jpg

  34. avatar
    Stanislaw May 23, 2012 at 12:32 pm #

    john:
    A verification of birth of Obama in Hawaii means nothing unless Hawaii can provide every detail of the birth – How, Where, Why, and When.Remember folks backs in the 1960′s is very possible and easy for the grandparents to registered Obama in the birth system without him actually being born there.

    The counter evidence pointing to a Kenya birth is compelling and stunning. In John Woodman’s words I would use “irresistable.’

    john, you’re an idiot. Seriously. A mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging moron.

  35. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2012 at 12:35 pm #

    “The previous DOH director – Was appointed by Abercrombie before Fuddy for a very short time. Resigned after very short time under mysterious circumstances. ”
    .
    this is a polical appointment, Lingle the Republican put in a Republican, then after Abercrombie was elected he put in a democrat, john stop being so stupid.

  36. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 12:48 pm #

    john: Hawaii has plenty of reasons to lie for Obama

    A little over 1.5-million people live in Hawaii, John. Are you saying that there is not one of them with the integrity, the strength of character to expose the lies you see?

  37. avatar
    Paper May 23, 2012 at 12:50 pm #

    Ha!

    Well, John also forgot who and what, to fill out the full sequence of: who what when where why/how.

    So:

    Who: Barack Obama
    What: Human baby, natural born citizen of the USA

    richCares:
    for john
    How:…..Result of sexual activity
    Where:..Kapiolani Hospital
    Why……Normal activity after 9 months

  38. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2012 at 12:51 pm #

    “john, you’re an idiot. Seriously. A mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging moron.”
    .
    a very good and objective comment on john, right on!

  39. avatar
    Jamese777 May 23, 2012 at 12:54 pm #

    john:
    Yes, Abercrombie had the Hawaii AG run interference for him when it started making major news that Abercrombie could not find the birth certificate.First Abercrombie had Evans backpedal his story and then he had the Hawaii AG run interference by stating that Abercrombie couldn’t release anything he finds if he continues his investigation.Remember, Abercrombie made his claim that no birth certificate exists in the middle of investigation and he could only find a state notation.The AG then provided cover by stating that it would useless to continue to investigation because Abercrombie couldn’t release what he might find anyway.

    The reason that Governor Abercrombie stopped looking for the original long form was because the state Attorney General told him that he was prohibited by statute from releasing any additional information about it AND the previous Republican administration of Governor Lingle had moved the Obama birth certificate to a safe within the records department.
    Here’s a link to the Fox News story from April 2011 about moving the birth certificate to a safe:
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/27/obama-birth-certificate-moved-secure-location-months-ago/

  40. avatar
    y_p_w May 23, 2012 at 1:01 pm #

    justlw: It is indeed a very shifty looking archipelago. Especially Maui: I think it’s trying to convince people it’s two islands.

    Maui County is actually 4 major islands, including Maui and Molaka’i.

    Maui itself is made up of two volcanic intrusions that combined into a single land mass. The Big Island is made up of five volcanoes and is still growing.

    Those islands just won’t stay still.

  41. avatar
    Jamese777 May 23, 2012 at 1:02 pm #

    For John: here’s a link to the interview with the former Director oh Health for Hawaii under the Lingle Administration, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, MD. She confirms the original vault copy birth certificate and she confirms that she has personally seen it.
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e9D4n6_Uifk

  42. avatar
    john May 23, 2012 at 1:05 pm #

    Dr. Fukino claimed that Obama’s birth certificate was not handled any differently from any other other birth record. Apparently Dr. Fukino was lying or had no intention of standing by her words because the birth certificate was handled differently. The claim that Abercrombie couldn’t release the BC is bogus because they also suggested it could be released with Obama’s consent. Finally, the DOH director and the State Register both worked under the Governor which was now Abercrombie. Any investigation by Abercrombie would have no doubted involved these 2 individuals. The notion that Abercrombie had no way knowing the BC was moved in another bogus claim.

  43. avatar
    Joe Acerbic May 23, 2012 at 1:05 pm #

    john:
    I encourage Sheriff Joe to contact the following people:

    Corsi’s Mole – Claimed the birth certificate for Obama mysteriously appeared in the record books prior a few days before being released.

    How would one contact somebody else’s imaginary friend?

  44. avatar
    Joe Acerbic May 23, 2012 at 1:08 pm #

    James M:

    What’s the going bid for a civics textbook that specifies that “two citizen parent” rule which so many people remember learning in school so clearly?

    I wonder why Lucas Smith isn’t selling one. Probably too much work compared to one page Kenyan BCs.

  45. avatar
    y_p_w May 23, 2012 at 1:09 pm #

    richCares: “The previous DOH director – Was appointed by Abercrombie before Fuddy for a very short time. Resigned after very short time under mysterious circumstances. ”.this is a polical appointment, Lingle the Republican put in a Republican, then after Abercrombie was elected he put in a democrat, john stop being so stupid.

    I believe that Fukino resigned as soon as the Abercrombie administration took over and an interim DoH was appointed. That got interesting. He went back to the University of Hawaii then resigned that job amidst a medical billing scandal at one of his previous jobs.

    http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=13914818
    http://www.civilbeat.com/posts/2011/05/06/10811-former-hawaii-health-director-nominee-resigns-med-school-post/

  46. avatar
    dch May 23, 2012 at 1:10 pm #

    “The counter evidence pointing to a Kenya birth is compelling and stunning.”

    Really? Simple request: Kindly provide the “compelling” evidence. Otherwise get lost.

  47. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 1:15 pm #

    Jerome Corsi is back!!!! He just posted a story on WND that includes an “exclusive” interview with Sheriff Arpaio who says “I’m not going to call it quits.”

    http://www.wnd.com/2012/05/sheriff-joe-im-not-going-to-call-it-quits/?cat_orig=politics

    Not clear where Corsi is but the story says Zullo and his “team” are still in Hawaii. Zullo says:

    “Evidently Hawaii has had a change of heart, I’m now happy to return once again to the Hawaii Department in Health to repeat our request that Hawaii release whatever birth records may yet remain concealed in the Hawaii Department of Health vaults to public examination by a court-certified group of forensic examiners.”

    Can’t wait to see how that goes.

    But never fear Arpaio says…..“I am determined to remain above politics in the effort of my Cold Case Posse to discover the truth.”

  48. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2012 at 1:18 pm #

    … or you have no ability to read in context.

    john: Dr. Fukino claimed that Obama’s birth certificate was not handled any differently from any other other birth record. Apparently Dr. Fukino was lying or …

  49. avatar
    john May 23, 2012 at 1:22 pm #

    This is a criminal investigation by Sheriff Arpaio. OK, so Hawaii says they have the records. the next step is to go and run forensic tests on those records to finding evidence of tampering or forgery. If Arpaio can get support of the Hawaii Law Enforcement, then Arpaio can by force go in and sieze the records. Those at DOH who interfere will be arrested for interfering with a criminal investigation.

  50. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 1:24 pm #

    john: Apparently Dr. Fukino was lying…………..

    Apparently, John, it appears no one can tell the truth……except you. What a guy!

  51. avatar
    Paper May 23, 2012 at 1:29 pm #

    Hmmm…I think his crack team should get on to the really pressing business of investigating the truth about whether or not the earth orbits the sun. I mean, as long as they are trying to discover the truth of things already clear.

    CarlOrcas: But never fear Arpaio says…..“I am determined to remain above politics in the effort of my Cold Case Posse to discover the truth.”

  52. avatar
    linda May 23, 2012 at 1:30 pm #

    john: Remember folks backs in the 1960′s is very possible and easy for the grandparents to registered Obama in the birth system without him actually being born there.

    Actually, it wasn’t. Doc has info about that, if you care to read it.

  53. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2012 at 1:33 pm #

    Don’t you ever get tired butting your head against the wall?

    john: This is a criminal investigation by Sheriff Arpaio.

  54. avatar
    gorefan May 23, 2012 at 1:36 pm #

    john: Dr. Fukino claimed that Obama’s birth certificate was not handled any differently from any other other birth record.

    She made that statement in October, 2008. It was true at that time.

    Then the DOH got a tsunami of birther requests convinced them that they need to add an extra level of security to the his BC. President Obama’s BC along with all the other BCs in the bound volume were moved into a locked cabinet in the DOH.

    “More than a month before Donald Trump began his media blitzkrieg over the issue of President Obama’s birth certificate, the document was quietly moved to a more secure location within a dual combination-key lock safe inside the state’s health department vault.”

    “The certificate was moved there by Alvin Onaka, Hawaii’s State Registrar, in response to what had already become an increasing number of media requests by FoxNews.com and others, according to sources.”

    “It is my understanding that the book has been placed in a smaller locked container in the same secure safe,” Chiyome Fukino, who served as Hawaii’s health department director for eight years until last December, told FoxNews.com in late February. “The safe is still in the department.”

    “Fukino and others claim the additional security measure reduces the number of people with access to the much-sought-after document from a handful to just one: Onaka himself.”

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/27/obama-birth-certificate-moved-secure-location-months-ago/

  55. avatar
    Stanislaw May 23, 2012 at 1:36 pm #

    Paper:
    Hmmm…I think his crackhead team should get on to the really pressing business of investigating the truth about whether or not the earth orbits the sun.I mean, as long as they are trying to discover the truth of things already clear.

    FIFY.

  56. avatar
    linda May 23, 2012 at 1:37 pm #

    john: The counter evidence pointing to a Kenya birth is compelling and stunning.

    Please, present it. I would love to see it, given such a big buildup.

  57. avatar
    nbc May 23, 2012 at 1:38 pm #

    john: This is a criminal investigation by Sheriff Arpaio. OK, so Hawaii says they have the records. the next step is to go and run forensic tests on those records to finding evidence of tampering or forgery.

    ROTFL. Arpaio’s CCP was engaged in a smear attempt, and now that the DOH of Hawaii has verified that President Obama was born in HI, the CCP’s ‘findings’ that the electronic version of the certified copy shows signs that some, unfamiliar with compression technologies, may interpret as evidence of tampering, are totally irrelevant.

    It’s the end my friend. Arpaio’s CCP was sent out into the cold by the ‘brave’ tea party members who insisted that SOS Bennett verifies Obama’s eligibility.

    Hilarious how these poor sods manage to undermine eachother’s efforts so aptly.

    applause….

    It’s all over… Sanctions are being called for in various pending lawsuits, Orly has been accused of practicing law in violation of Indiana Law and may be facing some sanctions there. Her MS case is slowly unraveling and the tag team of Begley and Tepper is turning up the heat with cost and sanctions, while pointing out the continued incompetence of our dentist friend.

    Time to place all your bets on Orly’s quixotic run for Congress again John..

    Poor John…

  58. avatar
    Majority Will May 23, 2012 at 1:45 pm #

    john: If Arpaio can get support of the Hawaii Law Enforcement, then Arpaio can by force go in and sieze the records.

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! ! !

    Take birther Chuck Norris with you.

  59. avatar
    gorefan May 23, 2012 at 1:47 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Don’t you ever get tired butting your head against the wall?

    It probably feels so good when he stops.

  60. avatar
    gorefan May 23, 2012 at 1:49 pm #

    Majority Will: Take birther Chuck Norris with you.

    Or CCP member Steven Seagal.

  61. avatar
    Stanislaw May 23, 2012 at 1:53 pm #

    linda: Please, present it.I would love to see it, given such a big buildup.

    “Any day, now…any day, now…”

  62. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 1:56 pm #

    john: If Arpaio can get support of the Hawaii Law Enforcement, then Arpaio can by force go in and sieze the records

    What’s he gonna do, John….call Hawaii Five-0? Send his tank over there to knock down the doors at the Department of Health?

    Exactly how is it going to work? Hmm??

  63. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 1:58 pm #

    gorefan: It probably feels so good when he stops.

    But he never stops.

  64. avatar
    john May 23, 2012 at 1:59 pm #

    Remember what Mark Zullo said…Should Hawaii show proof of Obama’s birth in Hawaii, such as the microfilm or other documents, IT WILL NOT BE ENOUGH. Zullo insists that such evidence will need to be forensically tested. Because this is a criminal investigation of fraud and forgery, the Full Faith Credit Clause no longer holds. Statements by Hawaiian officials can no longer be taken at simply face value. The investigation will continue.

  65. avatar
    john May 23, 2012 at 2:01 pm #

    Possibly Carl. With help of Hawaii Law Enforcement, Zullo could go to the Hawaii DOH and demand surrender of the documents. Should anyone interfere, they will be arrested. i doubt Zullo will actually do that however.

  66. avatar
    nbc May 23, 2012 at 2:01 pm #

    john: If Arpaio can get support of the Hawaii Law Enforcement, then Arpaio can by force go in and sieze the records.

    ROTFL, such pipedreams… But I do agree with John, that such would be the best-case scenario and yet soooo unlikely.

    The End… If John has to resort to such desperate dreams then it is clear that there is no future for his follies and he knows it. But is struggling with the realization…

  67. avatar
    clestes May 23, 2012 at 2:13 pm #

    John,

    you are always good for a laugh and usually several of them. Your fantasies, mental gymnastics and lack of any analytical abilities are the end result of the depredation the republicans have had on our public education system.

    Your inability to spell or understand what the hell spellchecker is, let alone use it are priceless, but you are still a moron.

  68. avatar
    BillTheCat May 23, 2012 at 2:13 pm #

    john: . I don’t trust Hawaii and do believe they are lying. .

    Which means alot considering you are in no position of power or knowlege of the facts. Courts agree with HI, not you.

  69. avatar
    gorefan May 23, 2012 at 2:13 pm #

    The verification is out and it kills the birthers

    http://www.azcentral.com/12news/Obama-Verification.pdf

  70. avatar
    john May 23, 2012 at 2:24 pm #

    Quite interesting. None of the signatures were verified including the identity of the doctor. The verification itself is meaningless because not one signature has been verified.

  71. avatar
    DP May 23, 2012 at 2:27 pm #

    john:
    This is a criminal investigation by Sheriff Arpaio.OK, so Hawaii says they have the records.the next step is to go and run forensic tests on those records to finding evidence of tampering or forgery.If Arpaio can get support of the Hawaii Law Enforcement, then Arpaio can by force go in and sieze the records. Those at DOH who interfere will be arrested for interfering with a criminal investigation.

    I don’t mean any disrespect, but honestly, for your own good…

    If you really believe that paragraph captures a viable, credible thought that normal people would have, you are mentally disturbed. I hope it’s a low level that still allows some social functionality, but you really should get help.

    There was a United States before Obama, there will be a United States after Obama, and nothing out of the normal (besides a bad recession from bank fall out) is actually happening.

  72. avatar
    DP May 23, 2012 at 2:31 pm #

    gorefan:

    It’s all a lie, it’s all a lie, it’s all a lie, it’s all a lie, and when I tap my ruby slippers together I will be back in a land where only white people can be President.

  73. avatar
    dch May 23, 2012 at 2:37 pm #

    “The verification is out and it kills the birthers”

    Other than a few trivial details it says the same thing as the original COLB that was posted in 2008. We now have TRIPLE verification from the DoH on Obama’s birth location and ZERO verification on all the other candidates!

    Somewhere in birferstan there is an empty goal post hole missing a goal post.
    Is it now going to be that recent meme that he was fathered by that communist dude? How that makes him not a natural born citizen has yet to be explained.
    This whole birther must be a long term experiment to determine the limits of human capacity for willful ignorance in sticking to a lost causes.
    The Arizona SoS truly made a fool out of himself and got totally owned.

  74. avatar
    JPotter May 23, 2012 at 2:37 pm #

    gorefan: The verification is out and it kills the birthers

    Wow! It has been released! This will be brushed off as insufficient. I am sure they are nitpicking it now. Looking for layers (none, only an image and a clipping path), and will soon be obsessing over the “9K” squiggle. Where’s the smiley face in Alvin? Clearly the forger has learned from his mistakes. Explanations that this is not from the same source as the WH LFBC PDF will be ignored.

    Amazing, but not surprising, that birthers have slandered an entire state and the staff of an entire office as liars. Denial projects.

  75. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 2:37 pm #

    gorefan: The verification is out and it kills the birthers

    Were that it was true. Nothing will kill birtherism…..not even a stake through its heart.

  76. avatar
    y_p_w May 23, 2012 at 2:41 pm #

    gorefan: The verification is out and it kills the birthershttp://www.azcentral.com/12news/Obama-Verification.pdf

    Apparently they didn’t specifically ask to verify the DOB, although the line after item 12 would seem to cover that.

  77. avatar
    nbc May 23, 2012 at 2:49 pm #

    It’s even better than I had imagined… It verifies that the document matches the information in the birth certificate Bennett attached…

    The end…

  78. avatar
    Tarrant May 23, 2012 at 2:50 pm #

    This document will be practically impossible for birthers to call a “forgery” although I sure a few will still do so – it was sent directly from Hawaii to Arizona, with a certification.

    Birthers will instead say that Hawaii now 100% definitely has to be in on it, and intone with the two parent theory, wile still saying the COlB and LFBC are forgeries that somehow have the same information Hawaii certified.

  79. avatar
    gorefan May 23, 2012 at 2:50 pm #

    y_p_w: Apparently they didn’t specifically ask to verify the DOB

    Yeah, that is kind of strange. But here is what Bennett requested:

    Enclosed please find a request for a verification in lieu of a certified copy for the birth record of Barack Hussein Obama II. In addition to the items to be verified in the attached form, please verify the following items from the record of birth:

    Department of Health File #151 61 10641
    Time of birth: 7:24 p.m.
    Name of hospital: Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital
    Age of father: 25
    Birthplace of Father: Kenya, East Africa
    Age of mother: 18
    Birthplace of mother: Wichita, Kansas
    Date of signature of parent: 8-7-1961
    Date of signature of attendant: 8-8-1961
    Date accepted by local registrar: August-8 1961

    Additionally, please verify that the attached copy of the Certificate of Live Birth for Mr. Obama is a true and accurate representation of the original record in your files.

    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/05/ken_bennett_birther_hawaii_arizona_emails.php?ref=fpblg

    So Hawaii just went down the list without really changing his supplied answers.

  80. avatar
    nbc May 23, 2012 at 2:50 pm #

    y_p_w: Apparently they didn’t specifically ask to verify the DOB, although the line after item 12 would seem to cover that.

    It is devastating to the birther case… I think we should all thank the diligent Tea Party birther who encouraged Bennett on his quixotic quest, leading to a total destruction of the CCP’s case and Arpaio’s bargaining chips with the feds.

    Oh what a tangled web they weave…

  81. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 2:52 pm #

    y_p_w: Apparently they didn’t specifically ask to verify the DOB, although the line after item 12 would seem to cover that.

    And we know why there’s no DOB on the docoment, don’t we????? Born in Kenya, flown back to Honolulu and secreted into Kapiolani and thrown into a bassinet in the maternity ward to be found on August 8th.

    No doubt about it. Right, John?

  82. avatar
    richCares May 23, 2012 at 2:52 pm #

    in the verification letter sent to Bennett:
    “Additionally, I verify that the information in the copy of the Certificate of Live Birth for
    Mr. Obama that you attached with your request matches the original record in our files”
    Sheriff Joe and dippy Zullo won’t like this

  83. avatar
    gorefan May 23, 2012 at 2:54 pm #

    And here is the best part.

    “I certify that the information contained in the vital record on file with the Department of Health was used to verify the facts of the vital event.”

  84. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) May 23, 2012 at 2:59 pm #

    gorefan: And here is the best part.“I certify that the information contained in the vital record on file with the Department of Health was used to verify the facts of the vital event.”

    Not the best part is Alvin Onaka signed it

  85. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) May 23, 2012 at 3:07 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Not the best part is Alvin Onaka signed it

    Wait there’s no smiley face this has to be fake!!! 😉

  86. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 3:10 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Not the best part is Alvin Onaka signed it

    Ah….but I don’t think he did. See the initials next to his name? Looks like JK to me. John Kennedy? Hmm? Maybe Jack Kevorkian? It’s all starting to make sense now.

    Oh wait…..John…….maybe our John??

    Now it’s getting complicated.

  87. avatar
    nbc May 23, 2012 at 3:18 pm #

    91c? HRS Chapter 91? Administrative Procedure..

  88. avatar
    Keith May 23, 2012 at 3:20 pm #

    john: As for McCain, he is protecting his deal he cut with Obama – The Senate Resolution for NBC in exchange for McCain and the GOP to slient on Obama’s eligiblity problem.

    Just out of curiosity, how is a guaranteed loss versus a guaranteed win a good bargain for McCain?

  89. avatar
    jayHG May 23, 2012 at 3:30 pm #

    gorefan: The verification is out and it kills the birthershttp://www.azcentral.com/12news/Obama-Verification.pdf

    Oh I’m sure there’s a smiley face on there SOMEWHERE…..hold on while I find it.

    signed, a dumb ass birther.

  90. avatar
    sfjeff May 23, 2012 at 3:35 pm #

    Keith: Just out of curiosity, how is a guaranteed loss versus a guaranteed win a good bargain for McCain?

    Invariably when a Birther conversation reaches this point they are left with impugning John McCain to make the Birther peg fit into the shredding machine.

  91. avatar
    nbc May 23, 2012 at 3:40 pm #

    I predict John’s next move is to throw his support behind Orly’s quixotic candidacy… So desperate… So unable to accept the facts.

  92. avatar
    Benji Franklin May 23, 2012 at 3:41 pm #

    And when the patience of even the Lord of the Universe ran dry, and he along with the Heavenly Hosts descended to Earth to quell the birther’s preposterous lies, and in a loud voice he spake into the ear of John, saying, “John, I will turn back the hands of time and whisk you to personally witness every relevant historical event from the discovery of America to Obama’s birth in Hawaii to Obama’s entire life so that you can see that he is a legitimate Natural Born Citizen of the United States and Constitutionally eligible to the Presidency, and when it came to pass that every eligibility challenge to Obama John could imagine or had heard voiced, was to his own satisfaction disproved or debunked, and the reality of Obama’s eligibility was repeatedly and admittedly verified by John’s own standards of proof, from the mouth of God itself, there came for a few seconds from John a torrential weeping and much gnashing of teeth. But then the light of his cumulative error did shew him a greater truth as he spat back at the the Creator, “But nobody remembers this guy from his years back before Time began, and anyway, I want to suggest that Sheriff Arpaio ask about the irrefutable evidence of eligibility I was shown today, “How could anybody who was really eligible need witnesses of this stature confirming these perfect standards of proof? Why, the appearance of God alone as his witness is stunning evidence that Obama MUST actually be ineligible.

  93. avatar
    JPotter May 23, 2012 at 3:43 pm #

    nbc: I predict John’s next move is to throw his support behind Orly’s quixotic candidacy… So desperate… So unable to accept the facts.

    He already did, a couple weeks back, somewhere here on OCT. He wanted her elected specifically so she could lodge an objection to the electoral vote counting.

    If I am confusing my birthers, I’m sorry. You know how it is. 😉

  94. avatar
    nbc May 23, 2012 at 3:56 pm #

    JPotter: He already did, a couple weeks back, somewhere here on OCT. He wanted her elected specifically so she could lodge an objection to the electoral vote counting.

    Yes, poor John does not know where to look for ‘help’ right now. His world is falling apart around him…

  95. avatar
    Scientist May 23, 2012 at 4:23 pm #

    nbc: It is devastating to the birther case… I think we should all thank the diligent Tea Party birther who encouraged Bennett on his quixotic quest, leading to a total destruction of the CCP’s case and Arpaio’s bargaining chips with the feds.

    Has anyone considered that this entire silliness has been orchestrated by the Romney campaign and the evil genius, Karl Rove? They have a real problem with the loony element in their party-birthers, fundies. Tea partiers-whose votes they need, but whose over-the-top style turns off Independents and swing voters. So we have seen repeated feints in the direction of birthers and Rev Wright, followed by pull-backs once the media exposes these gambits. The Rovian focus groups show that swing voters like Obama and doon’t react well to attacks on his character. They may be disaqppointed in the economy (wrongly, in my opinion-it is considerably better than many think), but there is a big risk in trying to portray Obama as an ineligible commie usurper-after all, for Mitt to sin he needs the votes of some people who voted for Obama last time.

    I would bet a large sum of money that Bennett took a whole pile of phone calls from Romney HQ throughout this silliness.

  96. avatar
    linda May 23, 2012 at 4:27 pm #

    Obama also has a resolution, too. On the anniversary of HI’s statehood, there was a resolution and it states that Obama was born there. But, just for fun, let’s say McCain wanted to cut a deal and that his resolution was binding (it isn’t), how was he able to include others in his scheme? How did he get republican judges and lawyers to get mass amnesia or agree to leave Obama alone? Of course, some of them must have been stubborn, as there are those birther suits, etc. What about the Clintons? They are both lawyers, how did he get them to go along with his plan?

    john: As for McCain, he is protecting his deal he cut with Obama – The Senate Resolution for NBC in exchange for McCain and the GOP to slient on Obama’s eligiblity problem.

  97. avatar
    nbc May 23, 2012 at 4:28 pm #

    Scientist: I would bet a large sum of money that Bennett took a whole pile of phone calls from Romney HQ throughout this silliness.

    Well, I would not think it would be beyond Rove to setup the Birthers this way… But really…

  98. avatar
    Scientist May 23, 2012 at 4:29 pm #

    Scientist: after all, for Mitt to sin he needs the votes of some people who voted for Obama last time

    A Freudian slip- for Mitt to WIN…(though it might be a sin…)

    Doc: I really wish you would use software that allows posters to edit their own words for some time after posting

  99. avatar
    Scientist May 23, 2012 at 4:32 pm #

    nbc: Well, I would not think it would be beyond Rove to setup the Birthers this way… But really…

    I will happily bet a good sum of money that Bennett had conversations with Romney HQ (though likely not Mitt himself). If the phone logs ever come out…..

  100. avatar
    donna May 23, 2012 at 4:35 pm #

    re the clintons:

    as huckabee said in march 2011

    “The only reason I’m not as confident that there’s something about the birth certificate … is because I KNOW THE CLINTONS WELL, and BELIEVE ME they had LOTS OF INVESTIGATORS ON HIM, and I’m CONVINCED if there WAS ANYTHING they could have found on that THEY WOULD HAVE FOUND IT, and I PROMISE THEY WOULD HAVE USED IT,” Huckabee said on “The Steve Malzberg Show” on New York station WOR.

  101. avatar
    James M May 23, 2012 at 4:41 pm #

    nbc:

    Well, I would not think it would be beyond Rove to setup the Birthers this way… But really…

    It does make sense. The GOP needs to quiet the birther movement down before they face a lot of televised events. All that Senator McCain had to actually deal with was a question about whether then-candidate Obama was “an Arab”, as opposed to, we were informed by Senator McCain, “a decent family man.”

  102. avatar
    James M May 23, 2012 at 4:43 pm #

    linda: But, just for fun, let’s say McCain wanted to cut a deal and that his resolution was binding (it isn’t), how was he able to include others in his scheme?

    The scheme to elect President Obama seems to have begun, at the latest, in the Seventeenth Century. You appear to have no concept of the magnitude of this conspiracy or just how intertwined it is with the entire history of this nation.

  103. avatar
    James M May 23, 2012 at 4:46 pm #

    gorefan:

    If any birther were serious, they would not have gone the route of civil suits, but would have demanded criminal charges for forgery and fraud against Dr. Onaka. This would simply add one more count to the charges. But no birther is seriously seeking justice.

  104. avatar
    James M May 23, 2012 at 4:55 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Were that it was true. Nothing will kill birtherism…..not even a stake through its heart.

    Probably after Obama’s second term, and then following the second term of the President who follows him, it will be an anecdote that some people remember, but it won’t be something that school kids learn about.

  105. avatar
    James M May 23, 2012 at 4:57 pm #

    john: Remember folks backs in the 1960′s is very possible and easy for the grandparents to registered Obama in the birth system without him actually being born there.

    There is some daylight between “very possible” and “a fact.” Prove that it is a fact, using evidence that would persuade one or more members of the House to impeach the President. If he is re-elected, that will be your only remaining course of action.

  106. avatar
    nbc May 23, 2012 at 5:08 pm #

    john: Remember folks backs in the 1960′s is very possible

    So you claim…

    Yawn…

  107. avatar
    JPotter May 23, 2012 at 5:14 pm #

    James M: If any birther were serious, they would not have gone the route of civil suits, but would have demanded criminal charges for forgery and fraud against Dr. Onaka. This would simply add one more count to the charges. But no birther is seriously seeking justice.

    Yes, but that’s a non-starter. It takes a prosecutor to file criminal charges. Civil suits can be filed by anyone. I wonder ….. how many prosecutors have been pestered by birthers? Corsi/Vogt supposedly spammed the FBI re: the LFBC PDF a year ago.

    Slowly, the wheels of justice turn.

  108. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) May 23, 2012 at 5:20 pm #

    john: Remember what Mark Zullo said…Should Hawaii show proof of Obama’s birth in Hawaii, such as the microfilm or other documents, IT WILL NOT BE ENOUGH. Zullo insists that such evidence will need to be forensically tested. Because this is a criminal investigation of fraud and forgery, the Full Faith Credit Clause no longer holds. Statements by Hawaiian officials can no longer be taken at simply face value. The investigation will continue.

    And then if testing happened it will still not be enough as he wants placental material.

  109. avatar
    HellT May 23, 2012 at 5:24 pm #

    john:

    Mike Evans – Gov. Abercrombie’s friend who was told by Abercrombie himself that no birth certificate exists for Barack Obama after having conducted an internal investigation.Mike Evans then told dozens and dozens of radio stations his revelation before being toldapparently by Abercrombie or Hawaii to change his story.

    Good grief, John. Do you ever wonder what life would be like if you’d had enough oxygen at birth?

    Mike Evans is a GOSSIP reporter, John. He ekes out a living by phoning radio stations and telling them the latest celebrity gossip live on their morning shows. You know what morning shows are, right? – comedy, fun and games.

    And Evans did NOT relate that story on “dozens and dozens” of radio stations. He told it only on KQRS, a radio station in my home town whose morning show is renowned for its comedy. I heard him tell it, and in the context of the show it was obvious that it was more an exaggerated tale coming from a guy who makes a living by claiming to have exciting “news” about people in the news. And, as it turned out, his claim that he’d talked to his supposed good buddy Gov. Abercrombie was b.s., as he had to shamefacedly admit he hadn’t heard from the guy since well before he was elected governor.

  110. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2012 at 5:26 pm #

    Have you tried the Edit button 😉

    Scientist: Doc: I really wish you would use software that allows posters to edit their own words for some time after posting

  111. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 5:29 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Have you tried the Edit button

    I’ll play. What edit button?

    For the first time I just noticed two button above the box where I’m writing this message. A spell checker and one that expands the little window to full screen.

    Is that new or am I just getting old?

    But…..seriously….I don’t see an edit button on my posted messages.

  112. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 5:33 pm #

    john: Remember what Mark Zullo said…Should Hawaii show proof of Obama’s birth in Hawaii, such as the microfilm or other documents, IT WILL NOT BE ENOUGH. Zullo insists that such evidence will need to be forensically tested. Because this is a criminal investigation of fraud and forger

    There is no criminal investigation, John. There is no criminal investigator. Zullo can’t write a parking ticket.

  113. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 5:48 pm #

    john: Possibly Carl. With help of Hawaii Law Enforcement, Zullo could go to the Hawaii DOH and demand surrender of the documents. Should anyone interfere, they will be arrested. i doubt Zullo will actually do that however.

    Help me with this, John: First, what authority does Zullo have to demand the “surrender” of any document anywhere? Second, what authority does any Hawaii peace officer have to assist him?

  114. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 5:53 pm #

    James M: Probably after Obama’s second term, and then following the second term of the President who follows him, it will be an anecdote that some people remember, but it won’t be something that school kids learn about.

    Google “Clinton Mena”. 496,000 results. This stuff never goes away

  115. avatar
    linda May 23, 2012 at 5:55 pm #

    No, it is not a criminal investigation. It is Arpaio’s pet project. He has not turned anything over for prosecution. They would be the ones to seek additional verification, if necessary, which of course it isn’t. CCP and Arpaio do not have the authority to receive any verification or conduct forensic testing in Hawaii. If they thought that was called for, they would turn it over to the proper authorities. They haven’t. Why do you think that is?

    john: Should Hawaii show proof of Obama’s birth in Hawaii, such as the microfilm or other documents, IT WILL NOT BE ENOUGH. Zullo insists that such evidence will need to be forensically tested. Because this is a criminal investigation of fraud and forgery, the Full Faith Credit Clause no longer holds.

  116. avatar
    y_p_w May 23, 2012 at 6:01 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I’ll play. What edit button?For the first time I just noticed two button above the box where I’m writing this message. A spell checker and one that expands the little window to full screen.Is that new or am I just getting old?But…..seriously….I don’t see an edit button on my posted messages.

    I don’t think the software has that option for anyone except a moderator. I’m not even sure how anyone manages to log in except perhaps through a backdoor way.

    I personally find that I can see a preview depending on the web browser, but only after I’ve posted once before and without clearing the cache. I don’t get this option with some web browsers.

  117. avatar
    linda May 23, 2012 at 6:05 pm #

    I get the edit and delete buttons after I post and I have used them. Love it!

  118. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 6:05 pm #

    john:
    Quite interesting. None of the signatures were verified including the identity of the doctor. The verification itself is meaningless because not one signature has been verified.

    Did they ask to have the signatures on the original document verified, John?

  119. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 6:10 pm #

    y_p_w: I don’t think the software has that option for anyone except a moderator. I’m not even sure how anyone manages to log in except perhaps through a backdoor way

    I believe Doc is using us as guinea pigs.

    I am seeing a Click to Edit and Delete button at the bottom of my new messages now once they are posted. I tried the edit function and it timed out. I dropped Doc and e-mail and gave him the error messages I got so I suspect he’s working on it right now.

    There is also a grammar/spell check button and a full screen button on the writing window now and both of them work.

    Nice additions, Doc.

  120. avatar
    James M May 23, 2012 at 6:42 pm #

    JPotter: Yes, but that’s a non-starter. It takes a prosecutor to file criminal charges. Civil suits can be filed by anyone. I wonder ….. how many prosecutors have been pestered by birthers? Corsi/Vogt supposedly spammed the FBI re: the LFBC PDF a year ago.

    Slowly, the wheels of justice turn.

    If you present sufficient evidence of a crime to a prosecutor, they will file criminal charges. They do it all the time. So it seems that all the Birthers need is evidence.

  121. avatar
    y_p_w May 23, 2012 at 6:55 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I believe Doc is using us as guinea pigs. I am seeing a Click to Edit and Delete button at the bottom of my new messages now once they are posted. I tried the edit function and it timed out. I dropped Doc and e-mail and gave him the error messages I got so I suspect he’s working on it right now. There is also a grammar/spell check button and a full screen button on the writing window now and both of them work.Nice additions, Doc.

    I see that now. I rather like it, especially since a lot of times the formatting is difficult. I’ve forgotten to end blockquotes or have been trying to get a particular format of italics and bolds, but it’s really hard to see the outcome and I like to be able to fix any mistakes.

  122. avatar
    Keith May 23, 2012 at 6:59 pm #

    Awww, the spell checker is just pandering to the Birthers, none of whom can figure out how to enable the spell checker built in to their browser.

  123. avatar
    Keith May 23, 2012 at 7:01 pm #

    Oooooh, I see the edit button!

    And it works!

  124. avatar
    Northland10 May 23, 2012 at 8:24 pm #

    Keith:
    Oooooh, I see the edit button!

    And it works!

    The Birthers had their new shiny thing with the “PR Pamphlet,” and now we have a new shining edit button that everyone is getting excited over. I suspect the edit button will be much more useful than their pamphlet and for a longer time (at least a week).

  125. avatar
    Benji Franklin May 23, 2012 at 8:25 pm #

    john: Quite interesting. None of the signatures were verified including the identity of the doctor. The verification itself is meaningless because not one signature has been verified.

    And if they had all been verified, wouldn’t John say,” Quite interesting. None of the signature-verifying experts’ credentials have been verified. The verification itself is meaningless because not one verifier’s expert credentials has been verified.

    And if their credentials had all been verified, wouldn’t John say,” Quite interesting. None of the credentials of verifiers of the the signature-verifying experts’ credentials have been verified. Verification of the online posted BC is itself therefore meaningless.

    And if they had all been verified, wouldn’t John say,” Quite interesting. None of the signature-verifying experts’ credentials have been verified. The verification itself is meaningless because not one set of the signature-verifying expert’s, expert credentials has been verified by a verifiable expert verifyer of such expert credential-verified verification.

    And so forth. Your goalposts are on the march again! We see your mind set. Alas, I fear our John is just a web site and a contribution button away from becoming another birther pay toilet.

  126. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 23, 2012 at 9:40 pm #

    y_p_w: see that now. I rather like it, especially since a lot of times the formatting is difficult. I’ve forgotten to end blockquotes or have been trying to get a particular format of italics and bolds, but it’s really hard to see the outcome and I like to be able to fix any mistakes

    My only problem is that I don’t usually spot my mistakes until the next day!

  127. avatar
    Rickey May 23, 2012 at 9:51 pm #

    john:
    Quite interesting.None of the signatures were verified including the identity of the doctor.The verification itself is meaningless because not one signature has been verified.

    Sorry, John, but the doctor’s signature has been verified by his family.

    “We can attest to the fact that it is indeed dad’s signature,” Yoshimura-Sinclair said.

    http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/120805124.html?id=120805124

    Another John fail. Does it make your head hurt to be wrong so often?

  128. avatar
    Arthur May 23, 2012 at 9:51 pm #

    FYI, here’s a copy of the verification paper that Hawaii sent SoS Bennet.

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2012/05/hawaiis-verification-of-president-obamas-birth.php?page=1

  129. avatar
    Rickey May 23, 2012 at 9:54 pm #

    Keith:
    Awww, the spell checker is just pandering to the Birthers, none of whom can figure out how to enable the spell checker built in to their browser.

    And a spell checker only works if you can then figure out the correct spelling, a skill which appears to out of the reach of most birthers.

  130. avatar
    Thomas Brown May 23, 2012 at 10:12 pm #

    john:
    Remember folks backs in the 1960′s is very possible and easy for the grandparents to registered Obama in the birth system without him actually being born there.

    Yeah, but only if the Loch Ness Monster filled in the proper form prepared by Davey Jones and witnessed by Paul Bunyan, which had to be delivered via the Bermuda Triangle in a flying saucer piloted by Elvis Presley.

    Holy crap but you’re a gullible loser.

  131. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 23, 2012 at 10:32 pm #

    I think you will have to abandon that track. According to Bennett, the verification from Hawaii lists THE HOSPITAL. That means, no grandmother registration. Sorry. That avenue is closed. You must add the State of Hawaii to the conspiracy or give up.

    john: Remember folks backs in the 1960′s is very possible and easy for the grandparents to registered Obama in the birth system without him actually being born there.

  132. avatar
    John Reilly May 23, 2012 at 10:49 pm #

    Doc, your post here must be in error. Dr. Taitz reports differently. She says Bennett has President Obama cornered. They are all going to jail soon.

  133. avatar
    Keith May 23, 2012 at 10:54 pm #

    Rickey: And a spell checker only works if you can then figure out the correct spelling, a skill which appears to out of the reach of most birthers.

    Lessee… put mouse cursor on the highlighted word… click the right mouse button… select the correct spelling from the suggested list/ add the mispelled word to your private dictionary/ give up and go back to use a different word…

    Yep, too complicated.

  134. avatar
    nbc May 23, 2012 at 11:19 pm #

    John Reilly: Doc, your post here must be in error. Dr. Taitz reports differently. She says Bennett has President Obama cornered. They are all going to jail soon.

    We have been hearing that for many years now. Orly still has not gotten any closer…

    And Orly was listening to an old interview… She is so clueless and cannot do the minimal amount of research…

  135. avatar
    nbc May 23, 2012 at 11:23 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: You must add the State of Hawaii to the conspiracy or give up.

    Nothing is beyond John as he is mentally/emotionally unable to accept Obama’s birth on US soil.

  136. avatar
    SluggoJD May 23, 2012 at 11:40 pm #

    Dr. C, are you “John?”

    Maybe Foggy?

    “John” is obviously a caricature of the birther who will go down with the Titanic before coming to grips with truth and reality.

    “John” has been good for comedy relief, but it’s time to pull the plug…or torpedo the boat, perhaps.

  137. avatar
    JPotter May 24, 2012 at 12:03 am #

    James M: o it seems that all the Birthers need is evidence.

    Like I said, a non-starter! Although, again, I am certain many prosecutors have been pestered by birthers. They beguiled a SoS, but so far, no AGs? Or any prosecutor, anywhere? No one willing to flush a career for birtherism?

  138. avatar
    JPotter May 24, 2012 at 12:08 am #

    SluggoJD: “John” has been good for comedy relief, but it’s time to pull the plug…or torpedo the boat, perhaps.

    Never underestimate … er, wait I mean overestimate, de birfers. Many of them are willing to be blatantly contrary no matter what, no matter how ludicrous doing so becomes. Unable to get attention in other ways, they’ll take what they can get. Unable to express their desired realities offline, they’ll take whatever they can get online. Again, no matter how ludicrous.

    And, oh, how ludicrous it does become ….. !

  139. avatar
    nbc May 24, 2012 at 1:12 am #

    John is now ‘arguing’ that there is now a controversy as Arpaio insists that the birth certificate is a fake while Hawaii insists it is accurate. However, John fails to comprehend that all Arpaio has stated is that the electronic copy of the certified copy of the original BC shows evidence of what may be tampering. All because his ‘experts’ do not appear to comprehend the effects of multicontent raster compression.
    In the mean time, even if the electronic version had been touched up, there is no relevance to the veracity of the actual certified documents that Hawaii provided to the White House and which they have verified as accurate.

    Such despair from our poor John… What a world he must live in, getting so small and dark…. But with a bit of luck he can convince Orly to file a motion or complaint. She could use more sanctions anyway.

    In the mean time, Arpaio is never going to file any charges with the DA/AG, certainly not after today’s debacle… Those tea party friends really have messed up his bargaining chip… And Bennett, he played a beautiful part in this tragicomedy

    Poor Joe…

  140. avatar
    dch May 24, 2012 at 8:45 am #

    “Quite interesting. None of the signatures were verified including the identity of the doctor. The verification itself is meaningless because not one signature has been verified.”

    Somewhere there is a goalpost hole missing a goalpost.

    Amazingly in this case it WAS verified by the doctors’s daughter – which just made it WORSE for the birtfers. LOL

    Sorry the COLB is consider Prima Facie evidence – e.g. no “verification” required. There is not a court in the USA that would agree with you. Your side is batting ZER0 in over 100 court cases in a row. That might be the worst court record in US history.
    Losers.

  141. avatar
    Save a Birther May 24, 2012 at 9:57 am #

    I’m starting to think it’s like trying to get a a bird to change its mating call. They all say this stuff, so I think it’s really just their form of bird call to attract a mate.

    Case in point: I’m just now trying to get my pet birther to acknowledge that this verification means talk of forgeries is even more ridiculous than it ever was already, that the only option left is that Hawaii is lying, even if the officials don’t know it themselves. The poor little guy doesn’t quite seem to get it yet, even though part of his theory already involves someone planting fake records in Hawaii (of which there is a secret video, for which Breitbart was killed).

    Chirp, chirp, the call of the birther, where the most contradictory, incoherent theory attracts the best mate?

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I think you will have to abandon that track. According to Bennett, the verification from Hawaii lists THE HOSPITAL. That means, no grandmother registration. Sorry. That avenue is closed. You must add the State of Hawaii to the conspiracy or give up.

  142. avatar
    y_p_w May 24, 2012 at 10:08 am #

    dch: Sorry the COLB is consider Prima Facie evidence – e.g. no “verification” required. There is not a court in the USA that would agree with you. Your side is batting ZER0 in over 100 court cases in a row. That might be the worst court record in US history.
    Losers.

    Most states have laws on how out of state documents are submitted and accepted by courts. I remember during the administrative court brouhaha in GA I looked it up and it was pretty simple. However, if the Full Faith & Credit requirements were insisted it would be a bit more complex because US laws to “prove” a document under FF&C are a bit more complex.

    Under Hawaii’s procedures for this “proof” Onaka would have to personally sign a birth certificate, a notary would have notarize it, a Hawaii court would have to certify the notarial stamp, and the Lt Governor’s office would have to issue an additional certification.

    However, the COLB as is stands would almost always be accepted without further requirements. Unless you’re a birther.

  143. avatar
    gorefan May 24, 2012 at 11:10 am #

    dch: Amazingly in this case it WAS verified by the doctors’s daughter – which just made it WORSE for the birtfers. LOL

    Even worse – fame birther Miki Booth’s son Alan had the same doctor. LOL

  144. avatar
    JPotter May 24, 2012 at 11:15 am #

    gorefan: Even worse – fame birther Miki Booth’s son Alan had the same doctor. LOL

    The conspiracy has widened to the point that the birthers themselves are now implicated. Finally! 😀

  145. avatar
    Thomas Brown May 24, 2012 at 12:07 pm #

    SluggoJD:
    Dr. C, are you “John?”

    Maybe Foggy?

    “John” is obviously a caricature of the birther who will go down with the Titanic before coming to grips with truth and reality.

    “John” has been good for comedy relief, but it’s time to pull the plug…or torpedo the boat, perhaps.

    Doubtful. It’s really really tough to fake that level of cluelessness.

  146. avatar
    Keith May 24, 2012 at 3:26 pm #

    y_p_w: Under Hawaii’s procedures for this “proof” Onaka would have to personally sign a birth certificate, a notary would have notarize it, a Hawaii court would have to certify the notarial stamp, and the Lt Governor’s office would have to issue an additional certification.

    I think you are describing the “apostile” process which is only required for documents or courts foreign to the United States, not for documents or courts from a different State within the United States.

    Although the word “foreign” is applied by State legal systems to the legal systems of other States, the FF&C rule eliminates the requirement for apostiles between States.

    Edit: IANAL

  147. avatar
    y_p_w May 24, 2012 at 5:03 pm #

    Keith: I think you are describing the “apostile” process which is only required for documents or courts foreign to the United States, not for documents or courts from a different State within the United States.

    Although the word “foreign” is applied by State legal systems to the legal systems of other States, the FF&C rule eliminates the requirement for apostiles between States.

    Edit: IANAL

    Depends. Not all foreign jurisdictions are signatories to the Apostille convention. However, many foreign countries will take a “certification” and I believe that’s what many states will issue if the applicant specifically requests something for a “foreign jurisdiction” that’s not an Apostille signatory. I believe the same certification (although typcally defined as something for an “overseas” transaction probably meets the requirements to “prove” a document to compel a state or local government to accept it under FF&C.

    A typical court ruling will contain the seal of the clerk, which by definition meets the requirements that Congress set up for meeting FF&C.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/1738

    The way to “prove” a nonjudicial record for FF&C requires that a judge, Governor, or Secretary of State sign off on the document. Since Hawaii has no SoS, the Lt Governor has that duty.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/1739

    http://hawaii.gov/ltgov/office/apostilles

  148. avatar
    dch May 24, 2012 at 5:28 pm #

    ” However, if the Full Faith & Credit requirements were insisted it would be a bit more complex because US laws to “prove” a document under FF&C are a bit more complex.”

    We are talking about birth records and nothing else – stick to the facts.
    Specifically name a US court that does not accept the Hawaill COLB. That is the claim you are making after all.
    For example: My son’s 1993 California BC has LESS information than the HI COLB you all say is lacking.
    We’ve used it for 18 years in two states and for a passport and never had a problem with a court or government agency.

  149. avatar
    misha May 25, 2012 at 10:10 pm #

    john: As for Lingle, she was GOP and in 2008 the GOP refused to look at the Obama eligibility issue because of media attack and racism.

    I’ll try this for 5,000th time: Linda Lingle is Jewish. She felt McCain/Palin were far better for Israel than Obama. If she could have found anything, the GOP would have used it with glee.

    As for McCain, he is protecting his deal he cut with Obama – The Senate Resolution for NBC in exchange for McCain and the GOP to slient on Obama’s eligiblity problem.

    That is exactly what Orly said many times on Israeli TV. Did you listen to her in English, Hebrew, or Russian?

  150. avatar
    y_p_w May 25, 2012 at 11:43 pm #

    dch:
    ” However, if the Full Faith & Credit requirements were insisted it would be a bit more complex because US laws to “prove” a document under FF&C are a bit more complex.”

    We are talking about birth records and nothing else – stick to the facts.
    Specifically name a US court that does not accept the Hawaill COLB.That is the claim you are making after all.For example: My son’s 1993 California BC has LESS information than the HI COLB you all say is lacking.
    We’ve used it for 18 years in two states and for a passport and never had a problem with a court or government agency.

    Sure. I’ve used my kid’s California BC to get a passport and passport card from the State Department. However, the Federal Government isn’t subject to the Full Faith and Credit Clause; FF&C only applies to state to state transactions.

    What I’m saying (and you can try looking at anything else I might have mentioned about this on this site) is that if it ever got to the point where a state/local government agency or court refused to accept a birth record or other vital record, someone could request a vital record be “proved” via the issuing state’s process that corresponds to the 28 USC 1739 standard for “proving” a “nonjudicial record”. At that point they could be compelled to accept it by a Federal court.

    Most states have laws that prescribe how their courts and agencies accept vital records from other states. They usually mention things like seals and signatures. However, they don’t typically mention Full Faith and Credit or the federal government’s statutory requirements to “prove” a document under FF&C. FF&C just isn’t typically an issue since most states don’t actually insist on vital records that meet the FF&C standard.

    That’s what I mean. A lot of people bring up FF&C as if a common everyday certified birth certificate meets that requirement. However, the Constitution says that Congress sets the standard for how judicial proceedings and records are to be “proved” and Congress has passed various laws over the years on how this is to be done. This procedure is actually unusual since no states really insist on it.

  151. avatar
    Keith May 26, 2012 at 2:39 am #

    y_p_w: However, the Constitution says that Congress sets the standard for how judicial proceedings and records are to be “proved” and Congress has passed various laws over the years on how this is to be done.

    That is exactly right.

    This procedure is actually unusual since no states really insist on it.

    That is exactly wrong.

    In the specific case of the Birth Certificate, Congress has passed laws describing exactly what makes a Birth Certificate a FF&C ‘prooved’ document. That laws specifies stuff like raised seals, certification by the appropriate authority, inked signatures, and the minimum info about the birth event. Stuff that every official birth certificate has as a matter of course.

    An official birth certificate is always produced so as to meet the Congress rules for FF&C. There is no ‘extraordinary’ procedure to make it even more official.

    There are examples of jurisdictions issuing BC’s that did not meet this standard (some counties in Texas and one other state, I believe?) and they suffered the embarrassment of having the suspect certificates rejected and having to reissue them to the standard required. States don’t like being embarrassed that way.

  152. avatar
    y_p_w May 26, 2012 at 9:20 am #

    Keith: That is exactly wrong.

    In the specific case of the Birth Certificate, Congress has passed laws describing exactly what makes a Birth Certificate a FF&C ‘prooved’ document. That laws specifies stuff like raised seals, certification by the appropriate authority, inked signatures, and the minimum info about the birth event. Stuff that every official birth certificate has as a matter of course.

    An official birth certificate is always produced so as to meet the Congress rules for FF&C. There is no ‘extraordinary’ procedure to make it even more official.

    Again, read 28 USC 1739. I’ve read this many times, and this is the part that most people don’t seem to understand about FF&C or where few know of the existence of 28 USC 1739. A lot of people seem to assume that FF&C requirements are a given. A raised seal isn’t a requirement. If I’m reading the law correctly, a seal per se isn’t even required. What makes a “nonjudicial record” proved for FF&C purposes is a certification by a judge, the Governor, or the Secretary of State where the document was issued.

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2009-title28/pdf/USCODE-2009-title28-partV-chap115-sec1738C.pdf
    http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/28C115.txt

    Sec. 1739. State and Territorial nonjudicial records; full faith and credit

    All nonjudicial records or books kept in any public office of any State, Territory, or Possession of the United States, or copies thereof, shall be proved or admitted in any court or office in any other State, Territory, or Possession by the attestation of the custodian of such records or books, and the seal of his office annexed, if there be a seal, together with a certificate of a judge of a court of record of the county, parish, or district in which such office may be kept, or of the Governor, or secretary of state, the chancellor or keeper of the great seal, of the State, Territory, or Possession that the said attestation is in due form and by the proper officers.

    If the certificate is given by a judge, it shall be further authenticated by the clerk or prothonotary of the court, who shall certify, under his hand and the seal of his office, that such judge is duly commissioned and qualified; or, if given by such Governor, secretary, chancellor, or keeper of the great seal, it shall be under the great seal of the State, Territory, or Possession in which it is made.

    Such records or books, or copies thereof, so authenticated, shall have the same full faith and credit in every court and office within the United States and its Territories and Possessions as they have by law or usage in the courts or offices of the State, Territory, or Possession from which they are taken.

    It’s the “together with a certificate” part that most birth certificates, marriage certificates, or death certificates don’t meet. I have several versions of my kid’s certified BC from the local and state offices that can issue one. None have a stamp of a judge’s clerk in the county of issue. None are authenticated by the office of the Governor or Secretary of State of California. And frankly very few courts I’ve heard of actually require this level of authentication. Foreign courts might though.

    This is the requirement from the California Evidence Code. It doesn’t mention FF&C, but it does mention seals and signatures. And that’s what I’m getting at. Most states’ rules of evidence don’t even bother with FF&C.

    http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=evid&group=01001-02000&file=1450-1454

  153. avatar
    y_p_w May 26, 2012 at 5:15 pm #

    Keith: That is exactly wrong.

    In the specific case of the Birth Certificate, Congress has passed laws describing exactly what makes a Birth Certificate a FF&C ‘prooved’ document. That laws specifies stuff like raised seals, certification by the appropriate authority, inked signatures, and the minimum info about the birth event. Stuff that every official birth certificate has as a matter of course.

    I’m waiting for the retraction, but I suspect it’s not forthcoming. I posted the exact requirements, which have been law of the land since 1948. They mention an authentication by the office of a judge, Governor, or Secretary of State. No birth certificate I know of meets this standard without additional steps taken to authenticate the document.

  154. avatar
    Keith May 26, 2012 at 11:39 pm #

    y_p_w: I’m waiting for the retraction, but I suspect it’s not forthcoming.

    First we are many hours apart. I don’t know where you are, but I’m in Australia. I also have a life outside my computer room, though it may not seem so at times; sometimes I even sleep. Frankly, I don’t give a ratzazz about how long you are waiting.

    A ‘certificate’ is a document that carries a ‘certification’. A ‘certification’ is an official statement that attests to the veracity of some fact. A ‘Birth Certificate’ is a document that contains facts about a birth event, and carries a ‘certification’ as to the veracity of those facts. A document without a certification is just a document with information on it; the information may very well be correct, but it isn’t certified to be correct.

    In the case of the President’s Birth Certificate, the certification reads:


    I certify this is a true copy or abstract of the record on file in the Hawaii State Department of Health

    It is signed by Alvin T. Onaka Ph.D, the Director of Health.

    Congress has passed a laws and promulgated regulations that specify the requirements for Birth Certificates. See :Report of the Panel to Evaluate the U.S. Standard Certificates for more information.

    If you review the Organizational Chart of the State of Hawaii you will find that the Department of Health is ’employed’ by the Governor. Hawaii State law ‘delegates’ the authority of the Governor to employ the Director of the Department of Health and therefore to attest to the fact that the Director of the Department of Health is authorized to certify Birth Certificates.

    In the case of the Birth Certificates issued by the State of Hawaii for Barrack Obama II over the last few years this would have been a man named Alvin T. Onaka. Interestingly this is exactly who has signed the certificates on both Birth Certificates published by the campaign in 2008 and the White House in 2011.

    The phrase from 28 USC 1739 that you highlight (that begins ‘together…’) refers to a verification that the certifying custodian of the document is the person authorized to do so. It is not asking the Governor or Secretary of State to certify the Birth Certificate; it is asking the Governor or Secretary of State to vouch that the custodian has the authority to certify the document. In the case of the Obama Certificates, the certifying custodian is Alvin T. Onaka.

    Since it is public knowledge that Onaka is the duly authorized officer to Certify Hawai’ian Birth documents at the time the documents were certified, such formal vouching for is quite pointless, and furthermore only an issue if his authority is challenged in Court. I doubt that any court in the land will find there is evidence that Onaka is may not be the official custodian and authorized to certify Hawaiian vital statistic records. The Governor’s attestation is certainly not required for every BC issued used for the day to day business of the person whose birth event it records.

    Courts are required to give Full Faith and Credit to such properly certified non-judicial documents. Of course, ‘properly certified’ is the key; if there is evidence that the document is not ‘properly certified’, then, yes, the court has the right to ask the Governor or Secretary of State to verify that the certifying custodian is authorised to do so. Absent such evidence, this entire discussion is just more distraction from the point: Hawai’i records show that Barrack Hussein Obama II was born in Honolulu in 1961 and is there for a natural born citizen and old enough to be President.

  155. avatar
    y_p_w May 27, 2012 at 12:31 am #

    Keith: The phrase from 28 USC 1739 that you highlight (that begins ‘together…’) refers to a verification that the certifying custodian of the document is the person authorized to do so. It is not asking the Governor or Secretary of State to certify the Birth Certificate; it is asking the Governor or Secretary of State to vouch that the custodian has the authority to certify the document. In the case of the Obama Certificates, the certifying custodian is Alvin T. Onaka.

    Yes I understand that. That’s also the typical requirement for an Apostille or any other foreign certification in most states.

    Full Faith and Credit under Article IV, Section 1 of the US Constitution effectively makes a similar requirement since Congress placed 28 USC 1739 as the standard for meeting the requirements.

    I’ve said that most states aren’t the business of being pigheaded about going as far as to require every out of state birth certificate to contain an additional certification by a judge, Governor, or SoS office that the seal and/or signatures are authentic. I’m sure that most states’ SoS offices don’t want to have to authenticate the signatures on a birth certificate every time someone wants to use their states’ birth certificates in order to apply for an out of state driver license. In order for Hawaii to do this, their procedures include getting a live signature from Onaka or whoever the current registrar would be, before going through a notary, a court clerk, and the Lt Gov’s office. I don’t think he’d be too happy having to sign every single copy although all the others would probably be OK with using their rubber stamps.

    Most state courts or agencies do accept out of state “nonjudicial records” that haven’t gone the whole nine yards simply because it’s overkill. However, under FF&C and 28 USC 1739 a record has specific requirements to be “proved”. I’m just saying that there are a whole lot of citations of the Full Faith and Credit Clause where the citers don’t understand there’s more. Personally I don’t see that Obama’s certified birth certificates as we know them would meet the FF&CC because they don’t have the additional verification by a judge, Gov, or SoS office. I don’t think it really matters given how much information the Hawaii Dept of Health has released, but FF&C doesn’t really seem applicable to me.

    Now court judgements are another matter. As a matter of course, they are often signed by a judge or at least stamped by a clerk of the court and meet the similar standards under 1738. They are by definition FF&C compliant.

  156. avatar
    y_p_w May 27, 2012 at 12:49 am #

    Keith: In the specific case of the Birth Certificate, Congress has passed laws describing exactly what makes a Birth Certificate a FF&C ‘prooved’ document. That laws specifies stuff like raised seals, certification by the appropriate authority, inked signatures, and the minimum info about the birth event. Stuff that every official birth certificate has as a matter of course.

    My disagreement with you is that I’ve read the relevant laws, and Congress hasn’t actually described such things as raised seals, inked signatures, or information about a birth event. USC 28 1739 frankly only mentions that a seal may or may not be applied and that an additional government office attest that everything is in order. I understand that as a matter of policy, US government agencies such as the State Dept have guidelines, but then again they’re not a state/territorial agency.

    Of course I’ve never really heard of any issue where a government agency has gone that strict about FF&C. The State Dept or federal agencies frankly aren’t subject to FF&C since it only deals with state to state issues. Usually the cases where they’ve had issues are ones where there are legitimate questions about the likelihood of fraud, and that’s not really a FF&C issue.

  157. avatar
    MShaba June 3, 2012 at 12:20 pm #

    There’s sadly for America, a problem here that is not going away without the release of the usual information the nation expects for people running for the highest elected office. It’s too problematic all these issues surfacing and all with denials and intellectually dishonest insistence for years now that a Certificate of Live Birth issued by Hawaii is the gold standard and nothing else needs to be shown.

    Obama’s sister Maya has a COLB issued by Hawaii too. Where was she born? Indonesia.
    Remember Hawaii is the 50th state in the union and things were very loose there as American citizenship was highly prized.

    We’ve seen Chrissy Matthews have hissy fits and others in the media that all told us deviating from the story of Obama by calling the COLB insufficient makes you “a birthed,” re: a racist.

    Of course now we now the COLB in Hawaii is inadequate and we can’t as Americans see a document just showing the name of the hospital and the doctor who handled the delivery.

    Where is the document? That form on the White House website is not it and there’s too many questions on its veracity as well.

    Can’t conclude where Obama was born and suspect this problem is connected to his father in some way.

    But it’s clear that there’s many problems with who Obama is and who has pushed his political career forward. There’s more not less coming out on this so we’ll see if anything of substance develops.

    We do know the media lied selling us the COLB was the gold standard and it isn’t. Now an Obama book publicist from 1997 says their author (Obama) was born in Kenya. The bio didn’t come from the publicist obviously, it came from Obama.

    Again nothing conclusive, but very problematic. Very.

  158. avatar
    JPotter June 3, 2012 at 12:32 pm #

    MShaba: There’s sadly for America, a problem here that is not going away without the release of the usual information the nation expects for people running for the highest elected office.

    Please define “usual information”. Which Presidential candidates have you supported in the past, and what research into their background did you undertake before deciding to vote for them?

    Pretty transparent, MShabby.

  159. avatar
    Keith June 3, 2012 at 12:43 pm #

    y_p_w: My disagreement with you is that I’ve read the relevant laws, and Congress hasn’t actually described such things as raised seals, inked signatures, or information about a birth event.

    If a Birth Certificate is a non-judicial record, then the Title you quote specifically calls for the ‘attestation of the custodian of such records or books, and the seal of his office annexed, if there be a seal,’ so you are trivially wrong on that part.

    There is a definition of what constitutes an acceptable seal somewhere, I can’t remember whether it is regulation or statute, and it includes the idea that it must be raised and/or colored. Same for the ‘inked’ signature, which includes allowance for manual or mechanically stamped signature.

    These items are security features, not part of the Birth Certificate itself. The raised seal and inked signature don’t make them a Birth Certificate. They contribute to the security of a ‘self validating document’.

    Your peculiar hair-splitting is boring; I’m not playing anymore.

  160. avatar
    Sef June 3, 2012 at 1:26 pm #

    MShaba: Obama’s sister Maya has a COLB issued by Hawaii too. Where was she born? Indonesia.
    Remember Hawaii is the 50th state in the union and things were very loose there as American citizenship was highly prized.

    Does that BC say that she was born in HI?

    You people just can’t comprehend that some states, HI in particular, have laws that allow the state to generate a BC for someone not born in the state so that it can be read and understood by people in the state. The BC, however, states specifically where they were born. This is usually because the original BC is not written in English. Do you actually think people in Indonesia or Japan would create a BC in English?

  161. avatar
    misha June 3, 2012 at 1:31 pm #

    MShaba: Where is the document? That form on the White House website is not it and there’s too many questions on its veracity as well.

    I share your concerns. In fact, I found a Kenya BC (Obama’s?) that is going to make trouble for him.

  162. avatar
    MShaba June 3, 2012 at 1:46 pm #

    Some people are actually making the point the COLB from Hawaii is not evidence as a birth certificate for where someone is born. This type of issue was commonplace in Hawaii and it’s problematic for obvious reasons.

    So why did the media keep pushing the Obama COLB as a birth certificate one that is a gold standard to end the question when it clearly doesn’t.

    CNN did a story recently on the issue and what did they show as the “evidence” for their story as they dubbed over it? You guessed it, they were showing a camera scanning over the Certificate of Live Birth.

    Can’t make this stuff up.

    As for what I like to see in a US Presidential candidate: I want to see their voting records in elective office and school records and transcripts that give me an idea on what kind of student they were and the education they received along with the same standard applied to John McCain who was asked to provide medical and birth records.

    Has Obama? The answer is no.

    Just as or more important what is it that Obama will do in a second term? How come the media doesn’t ask that question? It’s a presidential election and shouldn’t their be a detailed plan available for review?

    It’s all very troubling and the media has failed to do the basics.

  163. avatar
    donna June 3, 2012 at 1:58 pm #

    DOC: I think you will have to abandon that track. According to Bennett, the verification from Hawaii lists THE HOSPITAL. That means, no grandmother registration. Sorry. That avenue is closed. You must add the State of Hawaii to the conspiracy or give up.

    due to HIPAA laws, hawaii was not initially allowed to release the name of the hospital

    HOWEVER, in 2009, when Kapiolani celebrated 100 years, they published a magazine which included a letter from obama indicating that he was born there

    from the magazine:

    In fact, our 44th President Barack Obama commended “the excellence of Kapi‘olani Medical Center—the place of my birth.” He added, “Hawaii has always been a home to me.” (see p.6)

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/52083178/Kapiolani-Medical-Center-100-Years-1909-to-2009

  164. avatar
    Arthur June 3, 2012 at 2:00 pm #

    Thank God you’re on the case! I look forward to further reports.

    MShaba: It’s all very troubling and the media has failed to do the basics.

  165. avatar
    JPotter June 3, 2012 at 2:03 pm #

    MShaba: Can’t make this stuff up.

    Oh, but you did just now! You did, you did, you did!

  166. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 3, 2012 at 2:20 pm #

    MShaba: Some people are actually making the point the COLB from Hawaii is not evidence as a birth certificate for where someone is born.

    Yes they are but that doesn’t make it so, does it?

    Out of curiosity I just wonder what it would take to convince you that Obama was born in Hawaii?

  167. avatar
    y_p_w June 3, 2012 at 2:28 pm #

    Keith: If a Birth Certificate is a non-judicial record, then the Title you quote specifically calls for the ‘attestation of the custodian of such records or books, and the seal of his office annexed, if there be a seal,’ so you are trivially wrong on that part.

    There is a definition of what constitutes an acceptable seal somewhere, I can’t remember whether it is regulation or statute, and it includes the idea that it must be raised and/or colored. Same for the ‘inked’ signature, which includes allowance for manual or mechanically stamped signature.

    These items are security features, not part of the Birth Certificate itself. The raised seal and inked signature don’t make them a Birth Certificate. They contribute to the security of a ‘self validating document’.

    Your peculiar hair-splitting is boring; I’m not playing anymore.

    I’ve read much of what you’ve posted here. I would say that I agree with you more often than not. However, what I believe is that most of the times someone brings up “Full Faith and Credit” the part about the laws on the authentication are typically left out.

    Again, here’s the first paragraph:

    Sec. 1739. State and Territorial nonjudicial records; full faith and credit

    All nonjudicial records or books kept in any public office of any State, Territory, or Possession of the United States, or copies thereof, shall be proved or admitted in any court or office in any other State, Territory, or Possession by the attestation of the custodian of such records or books, and the seal of his office annexed, if there be a seal, together with a certificate of a judge of a court of record of the county, parish, or district in which such office may be kept, or of the Governor, or secretary of state, the chancellor or keeper of the great seal, of the State, Territory, or Possession that the said attestation is in due form and by the proper officers.

    It doesn’t say there has to be a seal. It certainly doesn’t get into specifics about what the form of a seal (“if there be a seal”) should be, such as the State Dept with “a registrar’s raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal”. It does say there must be a certificate of a judge, governor, or secretary of state certifying that the attestation is “in due form and by the proper officers”. I certainly know in California, the Secretary of State’s office keeps a list of all stamps and registrar’s signatures for use with Apostille and non-Apostille certifications.

    If the certificate is given by a judge, it shall be further authenticated by the clerk or prothonotary of the court, who shall certify, under his hand and the seal of his office, that such judge is duly commissioned and qualified; or, if given by such Governor, secretary, chancellor, or keeper of the great seal, it shall be under the great seal of the State, Territory, or Possession in which it is made.

    I think this is pretty clear. Here’s a copy of the current version of the California Apostille:

    http://www.caapostilleagents.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/CA-birth-certificate-apostille-westside-LA-westwood-ca.jpg

    It spells out the name of the signature, the capacity of the signer, and what agency the seal belongs to. It has the Great Seal of California in two places (not embossed either) where one stamp is across both the certification sheet and the document itself. It may not actually be valid for use in the US, but I’m thinking that one could probably request a similar non-Apostille certification that is. It has a certification statement that the signature, capacity of the signer, and seal (if there is one) is accurate.

    Here’s an older version:

    http://www.usapostilleservice.com/us-apostilles/CA_Apostille.html

    Such records or books, or copies thereof, so authenticated, shall have the same full faith and credit in every court and office within the United States and its Territories and Possessions as they have by law or usage in the courts or offices of the State, Territory, or Possession from which they are taken.

    The law passed by Congress to “prove” a nonjudicial document under Full Faith and Credit Clause is two-pronged. The first prong is that there is an attestation of the custodian of records which is almost universally present on certified copies of vital records. The second is that the office of a judge, Governor, or SoS must certify that the signatures (and seal if present) are authentic. I don’t think it’s that hard to understand. This is what’s required in order for Full Faith and Credit to be invoked, but it’s almost never needed in order to use one state’s vital records in another state.

  168. avatar
    y_p_w June 3, 2012 at 2:41 pm #

    Sef: Does that BC say that she was born in HI?

    You people just can’t comprehend that some states, HI in particular, have laws that allow the state to generate a BC for someone not born in the state so that it can be read and understood by people in the state. The BC, however, states specifically where they were born. This is usually because the original BC is not written in English. Do you actually think people in Indonesia or Japan would create a BC in English?

    It’s actually possible to get one in Michigan, so perhaps Mitt’s BC should be equally in doubt.

    Dr. C can weigh in on this one since he has a policy against posting BCs of people who aren’t public figures. However, this one was deliberately posted by the parents. It’s of a delayed birth certificate for a child born in China and adopted by a Michigan family. The date of filing is almost three years after the DOB and it states the child was born in China.

    http://jazzyrose.blogspot.com/2009/04/praise-god-jazmynes-michigan-birth.html

  169. avatar
    JPotter June 3, 2012 at 2:45 pm #

    My fine state, Okieland, has verbiage nearly identical to that in Hawaii’s code regarding delayed BCs, altered BCs, and BCs issued for persons born elsewhere. It’s all standard stuff. And not at all suspicious. Well, not for normal people anyway.

  170. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 3, 2012 at 2:56 pm #

    Well I think it was inadvisable for the parents to post that, but I don’t have a problem to a link to the parent’s web site showing the certificate. I wouldn’t save a copy and host it here.

    This shows that all we haven’t seen from the Romney certificate is the document control number, which is an attribute of the sheet of security paper, not the birth record. That is, it has no use for us unless another certificate had the same number, and that’s not likely.

    y_p_w: Dr. C can weigh in on this one since he has a policy against posting BCs of people who aren’t public figures. However, this one was deliberately posted by the parents.

  171. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 3, 2012 at 3:03 pm #

    The media pushed the COLB because it is a standard Hawaiian Birth Certificate, and its publication proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Obama was born in Hawaii.

    Birthers automatically deny any proof. What they say means nothing because it has no substance behind it.

    MShaba: So why did the media keep pushing the Obama COLB as a birth certificate one that is a gold standard to end the question when it clearly doesn’t.

  172. avatar
    y_p_w June 3, 2012 at 3:12 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: This shows that all we haven’t seen from the Romney certificate is the document control number, which is an attribute of the sheet of security paper, not the birth record. That is, it has no use for us unless another certificate had the same number, and that’s not likely.

    Hawaii of course no longer uses such paper.

    Once I ordered four copies of my kid’s BC from the California Dept of Public Health, and they had consecutive numbers and came with a receipt that indicated all of the serial numbers. The receipt specifically called them “Banknote Numbers”.

    I also got one copy from the county, but the clerk mistakenly pulled up the wrong record and had it printed on his laser printer. He noticed the error almost immediately and had it voided before putting it through the embosser or stamping the date of issue. It went into a specific slot in his file, and he didn’t shred it immediately. I’m guessing there was a procedure for such mistakes, and that was the reason why it wasn’t immediately destroyed. Otherwise it might be possible for an employee to claim that a sheet was destroyed but simply sell it to someone on the black market.

  173. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 3, 2012 at 3:12 pm #

    John McCain never released any birth records. He allowed reporters to look at his medical records, but not to make copies.

    MShaba: John McCain who was asked to provide medical and birth records.

  174. avatar
    John Reilly June 3, 2012 at 3:14 pm #

    MShaba, thank you for pointing out that John McCain made his birth records and medical records available. Perhaps you could provide a citation so all of us can see those records. I think it was widely known that Sen. McCain’s academic record at the Naval Academy was less than stellar, but perhaps you could give a citation to exactly where we can see his grades.

    If you want to move on to this year, let’s see Gov. Romney’s school records. You do have a citation for those, right? You would not be demanding the records from the Black guy but not the white guy? And Gov. Romney’s medical records? He loks healthy, but shouldn’t we see those? You do have a citation, right? You did not come here and accuse the President of hiding stuff that everyone else makes public, right?

  175. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 3, 2012 at 3:15 pm #

    Certificates of that type are “controlled documents” on “accountable paper.” No doubt a supervisor had to certify to the document’s destruction.

    y_p_w: It went into a specific slot in his file, and he didn’t shred it immediately. I’m guessing there was a procedure for such mistakes, and that was the reason why it wasn’t immediately destroyed. Otherwise it might be possible for an employee to claim that a sheet was destroyed but simply sell it to someone on the black market.

  176. avatar
    katahdin June 3, 2012 at 3:21 pm #

    No evidence has ever been produced to prove that Maya has a Hawaiian BC. This claim was simply invented by a birther, posted on a blog, and then repeated endlessly by other birthers. It’s nonsense, like all other birther claims.

    MShaba: Obama’s sister Maya has a COLB issued by Hawaii too. Where was she born? Indonesia.
    Remember Hawaii is the 50th state in the union and things were very loose there as American citizenship was highly prized.

  177. avatar
    JPotter June 3, 2012 at 3:24 pm #

    y_p_w: It’s of a delayed birth certificate for a child born in China and adopted by a Michigan family.

    This can’t be real. I’ve seen Mitt’s. Michigan BCs all say “VOIDVOIDVOIDVOIDVOID”. How could the Chinese forger miss such an obvious detail?

  178. avatar
    gorefan June 3, 2012 at 3:54 pm #

    katahdin: No evidence has ever been produced to prove that Maya has a Hawaiian BC.

    When asked by a birther to see the index data for Maya, the Hawaii DOH said they have no data for her.

  179. avatar
    Sef June 3, 2012 at 4:09 pm #

    gorefan: When asked by a birther to see the index data for Maya, the Hawaii DOH said they have no data for her.

    That’s because the birth index data only contains actual births in HI. No strangeness there.

  180. avatar
    y_p_w June 3, 2012 at 4:22 pm #

    John Reilly: MShaba, thank you for pointing out that John McCain made his birth records and medical records available. Perhaps you could provide a citation so all of us can see those records. I think it was widely known that Sen. McCain’s academic record at the Naval Academy was less than stellar, but perhaps you could give a citation to exactly where we can see his grades.

    My understanding is that McCain graduated near the bottom of his class at Annapolis. He was also a pretty lousy pilot. It certainly helped that he was the son and grandson of highly accomplished Navy officers.

  181. avatar
    sfjeff June 3, 2012 at 4:26 pm #

    y_p_w: My understanding is that McCain graduated near the bottom of his class at Annapolis. He was also a pretty lousy pilot. It certainly helped that he was the son and grandson of highly accomplished Navy officers.

    I don’t know about the lousy pilot part or not….but he was an excellent prisoner of war, refusing to be released just because he was the son of someone important.

    I disagree with McCain on many things, but the man voluinteered to serve our country and did so honorably. I see no reason to dirty up his name. Reeks of swift boating too much to my taste.

  182. avatar
    Scientist June 3, 2012 at 4:48 pm #

    MShaba: As for what I like to see in a US Presidential candidate: I want to see their voting records in elective office

    What an inane statement. Obama’s voting records in the Illinois and US Senate are a matter of public record. So are the bills he supported and opposed as President as well as executive orders issued. The President does cast votes on anything. Romney was never a legislator, but there are records of bills he supported and opposed as Governor of Massachusetts.

    MShaba: Just as or more important what is it that Obama will do in a second term? How come the media doesn’t ask that question? It’s a presidential election and shouldn’t their be a detailed plan available for review?

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/state-of-the-union-2012
    http://www.barackobama.com/

    And here’s Romney’s

    http://www.mittromney.com/

    Frankly, both contain large elements of b.s. and puffery because there are a milllion unforseen events that will happen in the next 4 years. Oh, and there is this body called Congress. They specialize in making sure that very little gets done.

    Why don’t you do your own research instaed of asking others to do it for you?

  183. avatar
    y_p_w June 3, 2012 at 5:07 pm #

    sfjeff: I don’t know about the lousy pilot part or not….but he was an excellent prisoner of war, refusing to be released just because he was the son of someone important.

    I disagree with McCain on many things, but the man voluinteered to serve our country and did so honorably. I seeno reason to dirty up his name.Reeks of swift boating too much to my taste.

    In many ways I think he’s an honorable man. He’s someone who as a member of Congress could disagree with others but still treat others with respect. I remember when he even defended Obama during the 2008 campaign. I would imagine Romney would stay silent under the same question.

    However, the gist I get about his military career was that a lot of what he got was because of his family. He really wasn’t a very good pilot.

  184. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 3, 2012 at 5:39 pm #

    y_p_w: However, the gist I get about his military career was that a lot of what he got was because of his family. He really wasn’t a very good pilot.

    Here is a 2008 LA Times profile that provides a pretty complete picture of McCain’s Navy career…………….

    http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/06/nation/na-aviator6

    He graduated 894th in his class of 899 in 1958.

  185. avatar
    JPotter June 3, 2012 at 5:56 pm #

    MShaba:

    Some people are actually making the point the COLB from Hawaii is not evidence as a birth certificate for where someone is born. This type of issue was commonplace in Hawaii and it’s problematic for obvious reasons.

    Waiting for something, anything of substance …..

    So why did the media keep pushing the Obama COLB as a birth certificate one that is a gold standard to end the question when it clearly doesn’t.

    … more emptiness ….

    CNN did a story recently on the issue and what did they show as the “evidence” for their story as they dubbed over it? You guessed it, they were showing a camera scanning over the Certificate of Live Birth.

    … something will be coming along, right?

    Can’t make this stuff up.

    Well, congrats, your worries about this possibility are unfounded.

    As for what I like to see in a US Presidential candidate: I want to see their voting records in elective office and school records and transcripts that give me an idea on what kind of student they were and the education they received along with the same standard applied to John McCain who was asked to provide medical and birth records.

    Oh! Whew. Here it is. Oh, dear, you’re all hopped up on birtherism .. asking for what birthers are always asking for. Not that you’re a birther, no, goodness me, definitely not. Why not get more creative? Ask for work history? Employer evaluations? Personal references? Credit reports? Passports? Bank statements? Utiity bills?

    Getting back to your modest request, you said you wanted “the usual information the nation expects for people running for the highest elected office.” If you’re saying that consists of voting records, transcripts, medical records, and birth certificates, again, please provide references to past candidates who submitted these records in response to the “usual” demands. Further, this is a list of what you like to see …. did you secure this information from candidates you have supported in the past? This is the “usual information,” right? If not, why change now?

    Has Obama? The answer is no.

    He didn’t respond to the “usual” requests for the “usual information”? If your list of demands is indeed universal and long-established, then how did he get elected?

    Just as or more important what is it that Obama will do in a second term? How come the media doesn’t ask that question? It’s a presidential election and shouldn’t their be a detailed plan available for review?

    That’s called a campaign platform. Usually aligns more or less with the candidate’s party platform. You can find this information online, others have noted as much. Also, there will be these events called “national conventions” in August. They’re nationally televised and everything. Agendas and visions, policies and ideas, will be much discussed at these conventions. Afterwards, there will be a series of debates between Presidential and Vice Presidential candidates. Each debate typically has its own format and theme. All of this repeats every 4 years, and has changed little for the past several decades. Is this your first election cycle as an American?

    No concern over the plans of other candidates?

    Personally, i am holding out hope for a tag-team style debate (we never get to see the P’s take on the VP’s … why not?), and a debate on science issues. I’m not holding my breath on either, tho.

    It’s all very troubling and the media has failed to do the basics.

    Yes, that you expect to be spoonfed, and that there may be more Americans of a similar mindset, is troubling indeed.

  186. avatar
    Northland10 June 3, 2012 at 6:25 pm #

    Some time ago, I had considered linking this one as proof of what a COLB might look like if it was delayed or if the person had been born outside of the state. I always held off out of concern for the families privacy. As generally easy as it was to find, I can only assume some Birthers found it and ignored it since it would not help their cause, at all. That is what happens when you look for verification of your opinion and not the the truth.

    Doc, you might know better but I assume the 121 at the beginning of the file number (see Romney’s which has the same) refers to birth records, since it is actually pre-printed on my very old copy of the “long form.” I suppose I should consider ordering a new copy since my only certified copy is from 1974 and does not even have the full file number (it was a “true copy” from the local county records, not the Certificate of BIrth on file at the state). I cannot remember the last time I actually needed one.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Well I think it was inadvisable for the parents to post that, but I don’t have a problem to a link to the parent’s web site showing the certificate. I wouldn’t save a copy and host it here.

    This shows that all we haven’t seen from the Romney certificate is the document control number, which is an attribute of the sheet of security paper, not the birth record. That is, it has no use for us unless another certificate had the same number, and that’s not likely.

  187. avatar
    Keith June 3, 2012 at 6:31 pm #

    MShaba:
    Some people are actually making the point the COLB from Hawaii is not evidence as a birth certificate for where someone is born.This type of issue was commonplace in Hawaii and it’s problematic for obvious reasons.

    “Some people” are wrong. Hawai’ian Birth Certificates list the actual place of birth. Always have. Birth Certificates for out of state births, such as adoptions of foreign children, always, repeat, always, show the ACTUAL place of birth, such as China or Kenya or Wherever.

    Be that as it may, in 1961 Hawai’i did not allow Birth Certificates for out of state births, period. That didn’t start until the 1980’s. Obama could not possibly have such a certificate.

    So why did the media keep pushing the Obama COLB as a birth certificate one that is a gold standard to end the question when it clearly doesn’t.

    Because it clearly is; just like the Birth Certificates from every other state.

    CNN did a story recently on the issue and what did they show as the “evidence” for their story as they dubbed over it?You guessed it, they were showing a camera scanning over the Certificate of Live Birth.

    And your problem with that is what exactly?

    Can’t make this stuff up.

    Why would you say that? The “Some people” you reference in your first sentence are obviously making this stuff up.

    As for what I like to see in a US Presidential candidate: I want to see their voting records in elective office

    Fair enough, have you had any trouble finding Obama’s voting record?

    and school records and transcripts that give me an idea on what kind of student they were and the education they received along

    You simply have no right to see “school records and transcripts” from any candidate. None. End of story. See FERPA.

    It is well known that he graduated from Columbia and Harvard Law School where he was President of the Harvard Law Review. Neither of those institutions is a lousy school, both are in the top 5 law schools in the country (2012 rankings ), and you don’t get to be President of Harvard Law Review by being on the bottom of your class.

    So you don’t get to see his transcripts, but from what you do know, you can be pretty sure that he was a pretty good student and well regarded.

    with the same standard applied to John McCain who was asked to provide medical and birth records.

    McCain provided neither.

    One person asserted that they saw his birth certificate, but the campaign refused to confirm that occurred. He allowed a small number of reporters to be in a room with a 500 page medical report for 30 minutes. No notes or photocopies were allowed. 30 minutes in the room with 5 or more people glancing at a 500 page document is not ‘releasing his medical records’. It isn’t even window dressing.

    Has Obama?The answer is no.

    Nor has any other Presidential candidate in history. Including McCain.

    Just as or more important what is it that Obama will do in a second term? How come the media doesn’t ask that question?It’s a presidential election and shouldn’t their be a detailed plan available for review?

    Yes, there should. And when the Democratic Presidential campaign begins, sometime after the Democratic National Convention, we should begin to see what that platform is.

    It’s all very troubling and the media has failed to do the basics.

    The only thing I find troubling is that any of this perfectly normal ‘stuff’ is somehow troubling to you.

  188. avatar
    Scientist June 3, 2012 at 7:13 pm #

    JPotter: Personally, i am holding out hope for a tag-team style debate (we never get to see the P’s take on the VP’s … why not?), and a debate on science issues. I’m not holding my breath on either, tho.

    Now that’s intriguing, a debate on science issues. I’m not sure what you had in mind, “The Higgs boson-Lost or found?” or “Can Alzheimer’s be prevented?” If only Rick Perry and Herman Cain were still in, such a debate could be comedic gold.

  189. avatar
    Sef June 3, 2012 at 7:14 pm #

    MShaba: As for what I like to see in a US Presidential candidate: I want to see their voting records in elective office and school records and transcripts that give me an idea on what kind of student they were and the education they received along with the same standard applied to John McCain who was asked to provide medical and birth records.

    Has it ever occurred to you that this might be information that our foreign enemies would give their treasuries to have? Why are you trying to help our enemies?

  190. avatar
    MShaba June 3, 2012 at 7:33 pm #

    People right to basic information on anyone holding the highest office in the land trumps some weak argument it will help enemies. But that is not as bad as others who keep insisting the Emperor has clothes when clearly he does not.

    A fraud has been perpetuated on the American people. The state of Hawaii has played fast with what a COLB means and it is not a birth certificate. Just would like to see the actual real documentation end of story.

    Haven’t concluded again on it other than there’s something I suspect related to the father. But it’s interesting to see the emotional reactionary attacks in raising legitimate questions. Reminds me of the media that did just the same telling us over and over a COLB from Hawaii was a birth certificate.

    Clearly it’s not.

    Americans are far more likely to vote on the economy in November anyway. But the voters of the United States deserve to know the truth and it’s been problematic getting it.

    McCain did release medical information, maybe a 1,000 pages worth. Of course Obama ardoesn’t have to do so. He doesn’t have to release anything. His State Senate records in Illinois are sealed, his college records are sealed, his birth records are sealed.

    Obama sure has a lot of secrets. Maybe Valerie Jarrett will tell us something she thinks we are allowed to know.

  191. avatar
    misha June 3, 2012 at 7:40 pm #

    y_p_w: In many ways I think he’s an honorable man. He’s someone who as a member of Congress could disagree with others but still treat others with respect.

    McSame voted against the King holiday, was one of the Keating Five, and took a marriage license while still married to the woman who waited for him, while a POW.

  192. avatar
    Sef June 3, 2012 at 7:42 pm #

    MShaba: People right to basic information on anyone holding the highest office in the land trumps some weak argument it will help enemies.

    Sounds like just what a traitor to our country would say.

  193. avatar
    JD Reed June 3, 2012 at 7:46 pm #

    MShaba: I want to see their voting records in elective office and school records and transcripts that give me an idea on what kind of student they were and the education they received along with the same standard applied to John McCain who was asked to provide medical and birth records.Has Obama?

    Just as or more important what is it that Obama will do in a second term? How come the media doesn’t ask that question? It’s a presidential election and shouldn’t their be a detailed plan available for review? .

    Ah, another poster pretending to be ignorant, or actually is ignorant.
    Voting records of legislators are public records. Get off your * and search them out if you’re that curious. Academic records and medical records, however, are not public records. Thus it’s up to the candidate to decide what he’ll reveal. But intelligent and informed voters can learn quite a lot by just observing, as Yogi Berra is believed to have saiid. (Or something similar.)

    McCain didn’t release a transcript, but we can infer from his low class rank that it was lackluster at best. Obama’s graduation magna cum laude from Harvard Law, on the other hand, is a good indication of his academic abilities. And you need more info to become available on where Obama stands on the issues? Review all the medica coverage for the past four years. Should be a clue. And as others have noted, should the Democratic platform forthcoming after the convention, as well as the campaign itself.
    Others have explained the medical records issue quite well.

  194. avatar
    Scientist June 3, 2012 at 7:47 pm #

    MShaba: The state of Hawaii has played fast with what a COLB means and it is not a birth certificate.

    In what sense is it not? How exactly does it differ from what Romney released last week? You don’t express yourself very clearly.

    Also, since you don’t like the COLB, the President, just for you, released the long form. Too bad you were on another planet when it came out…

  195. avatar
    Scientist June 3, 2012 at 7:56 pm #

    Come on MShaba, show us how the Obama and Romney COLBs differ. Go, on, I dare you. Take them line by line. And show us Romney’s school records and medical records. And please explain why has Romney released 1 year of tax returns vs 10 for Obama? Don’t you think a candidate’s recent financial dealings are at least as important as their undergraduate grades? I certainly do.

    Get off your high horse and answer specific questions or get lost!

  196. avatar
    misha June 3, 2012 at 8:00 pm #

    MShaba: But that is not as bad as others who keep insisting the Emperor has clothes when clearly he does not.

    Glad you brought that up. Mitt Romney, son of a Mexican born father, grandson of a polygamist, and guilty of animal cruelty, is running for president.

    David Huckabee caught a stray dog, hung it, slit its throat, and stoned it to death – at age 18. http://crooksandliars.com/2007/12/16/huckabee-squashed-charges-against-his-son-for-stoning-hanging-dog

    Michael Vick went to prison. Care to speculate why?

  197. avatar
    misha June 3, 2012 at 8:14 pm #

    MShaba: A fraud has been perpetuated on the American people.

    I completely agree with you. Here’s Romney: “Before I made a statement of that nature, I’d get on the phone to my friend Bibi Netanyahu and say: ‘Would it help if I say this? What would you like me to do?’ “
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/08/us/politics/mitt-romney-and-benjamin-netanyahu-are-old-friends.html?ref=politics&pagewanted=all

    And here is what Bibi is protecting: Brooklyn child-molest monster ‘got away with it’ after fleeing to Israel

    Here is Avrohom Mondrowitz, New York’s most notorious child molester — living scot-free in Israel.

    Called the “Bin Laden of pedophiles” by one victim, the bogus rabbi and self-proclaimed psychologist fled the United States in 1984 just before cops broke into his Borough Park, Brooklyn, home with a search warrant. They found a cache of kiddie porn and lists of hundreds of names of local boys, most referred to Mondrowitz by Jewish families and child-service agencies for counseling and his yeshiva-style program.

    Read more:
    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/molest_fiend_who_got_away_iOmYpBK7UEiNSdHacbnNUO#ixzz1wmL2D3B0

  198. avatar
    MShaba June 3, 2012 at 8:14 pm #

    Obama’s graduation magna cum laude from Harvard Law. So where is the transcript proving he graduated with high grades out of Harvard?

    Interesting that we hear about Romeny being the son of a polygamist? Is that a problem? Obama’s father was a polygamist. So was Obama’s grandfather. In fact everyone on the father’s side of the family is a polygamist.

    Interesting logic like much of the people who refuse to deal with the lie sold to the American people that a COLB from Hawaii was all we ever needed. Years later a long form is finally released but no one can request it from Hawaii and obtain the records for themselves.

    Obama won’t provide access. This has gone on for years. Something is rotten in Denmark. Thinking it must be related to the father but perhaps it doesn’t end there.

    None of this matters because Obama is doing great. Did you see the jobs report released Friday? Another bang up job by Obama.

    America’s standing in the world is now saved too. The Arab Spring is going great with the Muslim Brotherhood an eyelash from taking power in the most important Arab county and the US sitting by as Syria slaughters defenseless civilians.

    Lech Walesa a Nobel Prize winner and one of the greatest living legends for freedom is snubbed from accepting an award on behalf of a WWII Polish Freedom fighter.

    But Obama hands out a similar award to a big Socialist who is warmly welcomed.

    Welcome to Amerika.

  199. avatar
    Scientist June 3, 2012 at 8:17 pm #

    MShaba: I have challenged you once to go through Obama’s and Romney’s COLB line by line and show me why one is good and one isn’t. Why are you afraid to do that? The people want to know. The people have a right to know why you make cowardly charges.

    Are you being paid to do so?

  200. avatar
    MShaba June 3, 2012 at 8:24 pm #

    My apologies I see no value in going down a rabbit hole when it’s fairly obvious a fraud was presented to the American people on Obama’s COLB being a valid birth document when it clearly wasn’t.

    If you wish to compare such a document to anything Romney has, feel free to do so.
    It’s however irrelevant to the point already made.

    Paid to make a few comments? Please let me know how I can do so. I’m just one average American voter, but I know a stinker when I smell it. All I’ve done is point out the smell.

    Perhaps you would like to entertain changing the subject again to something else.

  201. avatar
    misha June 3, 2012 at 8:28 pm #

    MShaba: A fraud has been perpetuated on the American people.

    Quite right, only it’s Romney and Bibi: Brooklyn ‘perv’ rabbi Gershon Kranczer and son on the lam in Israel

    They may run, and it seems they can hide.

    Brooklyn rabbi Gershon Kranczer, 58, hopped a JFK flight to Tel Aviv on Nov. 29, 2010, running away just days before cops went to his Midwood house of horrors to arrest him on charges of repeatedly raping several female relatives. One of his sons, Asher, 21, facing similar charges, joined his dad on the plane.

    More than 18 months later, their Brooklyn indictments are sealed from public view and authorities won’t discuss any efforts to bring them to justice.

    Read on:
    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/and_another_who_may_walk_too_OEyWZbQJCqpgVOKJVoQEeM

  202. avatar
    Scientist June 3, 2012 at 8:33 pm #

    MShaba: If you wish to compare such a document to anything Romney has, feel free to do so.

    They are the same, line by line. Explain clearly WHY you believe one is fraudulent and one is real. But of course you can’t.

    The smell is entirely from YOU. Go take a shower.

  203. avatar
    Northland10 June 3, 2012 at 8:35 pm #

    MShaba: My apologies I see no value in going down a rabbit hole when it’s fairly obvious a fraud was presented to the American people on Obama’s COLB being a valid birth document when it clearly wasn’t.

    Explain the law that determines if a Birth Certificate is legitimate. The State of Hawaii states, Obama was born there and his Birth Certificate (either version) is accurate. Just because you do not like the answer does not mean it is not the truth.

    You are obviously not interested in holding any other candidate to the same standard you expect from the current President. Unfortunately, your insincere, “show your papers, boy” attitude will not cut it here.

  204. avatar
    G June 3, 2012 at 8:39 pm #

    Oh and where is that “people’s basic right to information” in the Constitution? Oh, that’s right, IT DOESN’T EXIST.

    But hey, we DO have many laws that protect the right of PRIVACY, including protecting PRIVATE records of many different types for ALL Americans.

    Thanks for playing and showing us how absolutely clueless and ignorant you can be…

    MShaba: People right to basic information on anyone holding the highest office in the land trumps some weak argument it will help enemies. But that is not as bad as others who keep insisting the Emperor has clothes when clearly he does not.

    *blah..blah…blah…crazy rant and tantrum…blah…blah..blah*

  205. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 3, 2012 at 8:41 pm #

    MShaba: Obama’s graduation magna cum laude from Harvard Law. So where is the transcript proving he graduated with high grades out of Harvard?

    Are you saying one can graduate from Harvard Law (or any school) magna cum laude with low grades?

    MShaba: Interesting that we hear about Romeny being the son of a polygamist? Is that a problem?

    No. Because it’s not true. Romney’s father was not a polygamist. His great grandfather reportedly had five wives.

    MShaba: Interesting logic like much of the people who refuse to deal with the lie sold to the American people that a COLB from Hawaii was all we ever needed. Years later a long form is finally released but no one can request it from Hawaii and obtain the records for themselves.

    Are yiou saying there are states and jurisdictions in the U.S. where one can go and acquire a legal birth certificate for anyone…..no matter their relationship?

    MShaba: Obama won’t provide access. This has gone on for years. Something is rotten in Denmark. Thinking it must be related to the father but perhaps it doesn’t end there.

    What do you mean by “access”? He has provided two certified copies of birth records from Hawaii. Records that Hawaii has gone out of its way to say are accurate and complete.

    MShaba: None of this matters because Obama is doing great. Did you see the jobs report released Friday? Another bang up job by Obama.

    Wow….you’re all over the map.

    MShaba: Welcome to Amerika.

    I live in America and I’m quite proud that you’re still free to post this sort of drivel without fear of anything worse than laughter.

  206. avatar
    G June 3, 2012 at 8:43 pm #

    Simple solution for you there, tantrum boy:

    HINT: No one is forcing you to cast a vote for Obama, so simply DON’T.

    That’s it. That’s all. No need to come off like a snivelling little piss-pants at all. Just don’t vote for a candidate you don’t like.

    Easy as that. Welcome to how America works and how really easy the right to vote can be.

    MShaba: Obama’s graduation magna cum laude from Harvard Law. So where is the transcript proving he graduated with high grades out of Harvard?

    *waaaah* *more crying about irrelevant nonsense* *waaaah*

  207. avatar
    Keith June 3, 2012 at 8:44 pm #

    MShaba: Lech Walesa a Nobel Prize winner and

    … a Socialist! OMG! Run!

  208. avatar
    misha June 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm #

    MShaba: Paid to make a few comments? Please let me know how I can do so.

    Yes, we are. Sign up here:
    http://onlineprofitmasters.net/ ,or here: http://www.homeprofitmasters.com/

  209. avatar
    Keith June 3, 2012 at 8:46 pm #

    MShaba: My apologies I see no value in going down a rabbit hole when it’s fairly obvious a fraud was presented to the American people on Obama’s COLB being a valid birth document when it clearly wasn’t.

    What are you afraid of? That Obama’s will be proven valid, or Romney’s will be proven fake?

    Either way, you are a coward. A hypocrite and a coward.

  210. avatar
    G June 3, 2012 at 8:47 pm #

    Well, based on the inanity and sheer immature tantrum quality of your comments so far, I’d say that you most certainly come across as an extremely below-average voter.

    HINT: That stink you smell is the rotting of your own brain… look no further than a mirror to point to your source.

    MShaba: I’m just one average American voter, but I know a stinker when I smell it. All I’ve done is point out the smell.

  211. avatar
    John Reilly June 3, 2012 at 9:01 pm #

    Our friend MShaba said Sen. McCain had made his birth certificate and medical records available. I asked for a citation or link so we could see them. MShaba has ignored the request to see Sen. McCain;’ birth certificate, but says that Sen. McCain provided 1000 pages of medical records.

    MShaba: may we have a link please to see both of these factual matters you have asserted are so. Surely since Sen. McCain released both his birth certificate and medical records, and the people have a right to know, you will tell us where we will find them.

    Actually stating a fact and posting a link to verify the fact is the first step to getting into a respectable argument around here.

    And it’s “America.” Don’t tell me you need a spell checker?

  212. avatar
    John Reilly June 3, 2012 at 9:04 pm #

    Misha, it’s “McCain,” not “McShame.” I get that you don’t think much of him, and like all of us, he has his flaws. However, he served his country honorably, and has served in the Senate for many years. Much like President Bush the other day referred to President Obama as “our” President, Sen. McCain deserves to be called by his proper name.

  213. avatar
    Scientist June 3, 2012 at 9:26 pm #

    John Reilly: Misha, it’s “McCain,” not “McShame.” I get that you don’t think much of him, and like all of us, he has his flaws. However, he served his country honorably, and has served in the Senate for many years. Much like President Bush the other day referred to President Obama as “our” President, Sen. McCain deserves to be called by his proper name.

    I agree with you John, although Misha actually called him “McSame”, as in “same as Bush.” I don’t agree with him on many issues, but McCain is an honorable man, who refused to let his campaign go into the gutter. We will see if Romney does the same; initial signs are not promising. The McCain-Feingold bill was an honest attempt to reduce the corrupting influence of money on campaigns. The real McShames were the 5 black-robed idiots who overturned it.

  214. avatar
    MShaba June 3, 2012 at 9:30 pm #

    I’m amazed at the thin skinned reactions here, especially ones that feign an inability to deal with clearly posed factual information.

    I guess this is like a Socialists of America website. That’s fine, it’s imploding in Europe so you have to support it somewhere.

  215. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 3, 2012 at 9:36 pm #

    MShaba: I’m amazed at the thin skinned reactions here, especially ones that feign an inability to deal with clearly posed factual information.

    I dealt with your “factual information” in my response a little while ago. Are you going to answer the questions or not?

  216. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2012 at 9:41 pm #

    No evidence of fraud have been presented. In fact, the Department of Hawaii has consistently confirmed the content of these documents which by any reasonable standard do appear to be official COLB and Long Form Birth Certificates. The only fraud is in your own mind. Given the lack of any evidence of Fraud, why do you believe it to be ‘fairly obvious’?

    MShaba: My apologies I see no value in going down a rabbit hole when it’s fairly obvious a fraud was presented to the American people on Obama’s COLB being a valid birth document when it clearly wasn’t.

  217. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2012 at 9:42 pm #

    MShaba: I’m amazed at the thin skinned reactions here, especially ones that feign an inability to deal with clearly posed factual information.

    So far I have seen little factual from you.

  218. avatar
    Thrifty June 3, 2012 at 9:43 pm #

    And yet, your side is the one that has lost well over 100 court cases, and hasn’t had a single member of Congress move for impeachment.

    MShaba:
    I’m amazed at the thin skinned reactions here, especially ones that feign an inability to deal with clearly posed factual information.

    I guess this is like a Socialists of America website.That’s fine, it’s imploding in Europe so you have to support it somewhere.

  219. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2012 at 9:44 pm #

    MShaba:

    Obama’s sister Maya has a COLB issued by Hawaii too.

    Which would show Indonesia as the country of her birth. Similarly, Obama’s would have shown Kenya if he had been born there. But the facts do not support such a birth in a foreign country and strongly suggest birth on soil.

  220. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2012 at 9:46 pm #

    MShaba: Some people are actually making the point the COLB from Hawaii is not evidence as a birth certificate for where someone is born. This type of issue was commonplace in Hawaii and it’s problematic for obvious reasons.

    There is noone making a persuasive argument for this as they ignore that such a document would not show Hawaii as the birth state, nor would it show a hospital witness. So again, your position, is flawed at best.

    Lacking ANY evidence to the contrary and the strong evidence of President Obama’s birth in Hawaii, one may wonder what motivates some people to accept arguments which are foolish at best.

    A bit desperate…

  221. avatar
    MShaba June 3, 2012 at 9:47 pm #

    Thanks for proving the point NBC. A COLB from Hawaii is not a US birth certificate.

  222. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2012 at 9:48 pm #

    JPotter: My fine state, Okieland, has verbiage nearly identical to that in Hawaii’s code regarding delayed BCs, altered BCs, and BCs issued for persons born elsewhere. It’s all standard stuff. And not at all suspicious. Well, not for normal people anyway.

    And remember that the foreign birth part of the law was added in the 1980’s

  223. avatar
    Scientist June 3, 2012 at 9:50 pm #

    Since MShaba refuses I wiill compare Obama’s and Romney birth certificates for him:

    Both have the name of the state-Even
    Both have the child’s name-Even
    Both have parent’s names and birthplaces-Even
    Both have place and date of birth (Obama’s also has time)-Advantage Obama
    Both have a signatuure of a state officials. Obama’s is publically kknown and Romney’s isnt-Advantage Obama
    Romney’s is marked “Void”-Advantage Obama

    So if I had to call one fraudulent, the data suggest it is Romney’s

  224. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 3, 2012 at 9:50 pm #

    MShaba: Thanks for proving the point NBC. A COLB from Hawaii is not a US birth certificate

    What is a “US birth certificate”?

  225. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2012 at 9:51 pm #

    I guess this is like a Socialists of America website.That’s fine, it’s imploding in Europe so you have to support it somewhere.

    Socialism… What a fool you are… But what’s wrong with socialism anyway, compared to unbridled capitalism and the objectivism of the Tea party, socialism is not interested in taking voting rights away, prohibit legal citizens from voting, undermining the middle class. As to Europe, socialism is as strong as ever, and for good reasons. It has shown itself to work quite well.

    Ignorance and fear of socialism, and Europe may explain why you are similarly uninformed about Obama’s birth and the various issues involved here.

  226. avatar
    Thrifty June 3, 2012 at 9:51 pm #

    No such thing exists. The United States does not issue birth certificates. The 50 states individually issue their own.

    MShaba:
    Thanks for proving the point NBC.A COLB from Hawaii is not a US birth certificate.

  227. avatar
    Scientist June 3, 2012 at 9:52 pm #

    MShaba: A COLB from Hawaii is not a US birth certificate.

    Of course it is. Ones from Michigan on the other hand, especially the parts right next to Canada, those are doubtful.

  228. avatar
    MShaba June 3, 2012 at 9:53 pm #

    No a COLB from Hawaii is clearly not a birth certificate. See Maya. LOL

    More importantly, the referendum is on:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmRgaKfWMPA&feature=player_embedded

    There’s been too much damage done and no matter who wins in November it will be a choice between bad or worse.

    Obama can’t keep printing paper (currency). It’s going to be bad so to all you cult of personality lovers, prepare to see your wallets savaged.

    Should Obama win, it’s going to be worse. You heard it here first.

  229. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2012 at 9:53 pm #

    MShaba: Thanks for proving the point NBC. A COLB from Hawaii is not a US birth certificate.

    It surely is. It is in fact the only birth certificate Hawaii is providing now in certified format. Why are you so ignorant about these facts? And why are you so intent of exposing yourself as such when you could have done the minimal research that would have avoided exposing yourself as uninformed and lazy.

  230. avatar
    Scientist June 3, 2012 at 9:56 pm #

    The Greek conservative government lied to enter the Euro. Ireland is in the crapper because they bailed out their banks (capitalist banks). Spain is in trouble because their banks made bad loans and will need a bailout. Italy was run by a successful business man for many years who was a disaster. Portugal? OK, not sure about them…

  231. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2012 at 9:56 pm #

    MShaba: Should Obama win, it’s going to be worse. You heard it here first.

    From someone who has shown himself to be poorly informed on facts. Obama won in 2008 and things quickly turned better in many areas. I am sure that you are totally unfamiliar with these facts as well. No problem, this website will be more than helpful in educating you a bit.

    Let’s start with your foolish comment that the COLB is not a US birth certificate.

    First of all, you do know that birth certificates are issued by the States, not the Federal Government, secondly you do realize that various states only provide certification of birth in the form on COLB’s?

    Let’s see if you can make a coherent argument or if you will be capable of admitting to your mistakes. I have my doubts that you will be able to do either. You heard it here first… Or perhaps not?

  232. avatar
    Scientist June 3, 2012 at 9:58 pm #

    MShaba: See Maya

    Link??? Show me. I dare you

  233. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2012 at 10:01 pm #

    Scientist: The Greek conservative government lied to enter the Euro

    In fact, it was Goldman Sachs which helped Greece get itself into these troubles.

    Goldman Sachs Group Inc. managed $15 billion of bond sales for Greece after arranging a currency swap that allowed the government to hide the extent of its deficit.

    Same with Iceland. The unchecked manipulations by US banks and financial institutions has brought our Nation and the world to the brink of financial destruction. It’s time that they are made to pay for their follies.

    Fair is fair… They made billions from their manipulations and now hundreds of millions of people are suffering because of it.

  234. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2012 at 10:05 pm #

    MShaba: Yes things are great, look at the laughter and joy in the land of Obama. Unemployment going up and Americans thrilled, even though other unemployed are not counted.

    Unemployment is still high, and the recent increase is partially due to the Republicans having forced layoffs amongst the US Postal Office. Furthermore, Republicans have cut funding to education, health and security, causing the public sector to shed many more jobs.

    The Obama administration saw a reversal from job losses and managed to add 4 million jobs since they took office. See http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/jobs.gif for example.

    Inform yourself before you look even more foolish. And yes, there is more to Obama’s successes than reversing the trend in jobs. Reforms in many areas have improved our Nation significantly.

    Obama has overhauled the food safety system
    Advanced women’s rights in the work place
    Ended Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell (DADT) in our military
    Stopped defending DOMA in court.
    Passed the Hate Crimes bill.
    Appointed two pro-choice women to the Supreme Court.
    Expanded access to medical care and provided subsidies for people who can’t afford it.
    Expanded the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP)
    Fixed the preexisting conditions travesty [and rescissions] in health insurance.
    Invested in clean energy.
    Overhauled the credit card industry, making it much more consumer-friendly.
    While Dodd-Frank bill was weak in many respects, it was still an extremely worthwhile start at re-regulating the financial sector.
    He created a Elizabeth Warren’s dream agency: The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.
    He’s done a lot for veterans
    He got help for people whose health was injured during the clean-up after the 9/11 attacks.

    Just a few of his successes, and of course, he captured Osama Bin Laden, ended the war in Iraq, and captured or killed many of the top of Al Qaeda.

  235. avatar
    Scientist June 3, 2012 at 10:08 pm #

    MShaba: Obama is doing awesome. Re-elect him and ignore the facts.

    Romney will fix everything right? He did a terrific job in Massachusetts. NOT!!!!! The one good thing he did (health care reform) he is running away from, Apparently it is terrific for Bay Staters but terrible for everyone else. Must be the water or the Red Sox.

    I am waiting for Maya’s birth certificate. Surely, you wouldn’t make up a story that she has one that says she was born in Hawaii. So, come on, show it!!

  236. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2012 at 10:10 pm #

    MShaba: No a COLB from Hawaii is clearly not a birth certificate. See Maya. LOL

    Maya’s COLB would show Indonesia as her location of birth. So yes, it is a birth certificate and by virtue of Obama’s birth in Hawaii, as certified by the COLB it is clearly the only certified birth certificate Hawaii provides.

    You appear to be somewhat ignorant as to what a birth certificate is and how it is relevant. For instance, Maya, who was born in Indonesia may have a Hawaiian birth certificate showing that she was indeed born in a foreign country to a US parent.

    A US birth certificate that shows birth on soil is prima facie evidence of natural born citizenship.

  237. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2012 at 10:11 pm #

    Of course, noone so far has presented any evidence that Maya indeed has a Hawaiian COLB or Long form birth certificate.

    But that is of no relevance to our poor Mshaba.

  238. avatar
    Scientist June 3, 2012 at 10:14 pm #

    nbc: Of course, noone so far has presented any evidence that Maya indeed has a Hawaiian COLB or Long form birth certificate.

    MShaba is such a tease. He swears it exists, but won’t show it. I will offer MShaba $10 to show Maya’s birth certificate. Yoo-hoo, MShaba, where are you??

  239. avatar
    MShaba June 3, 2012 at 10:15 pm #

    Wow a COLB with Indonesia really proves how useful it is to prove birth in the USA. LOL

    All these socialists spending nations in Western Europe just have a bank problem or two and then they could spend their way forever into a socialist paradise. Sure.

    Obama is doing so swell but if we could just keep losing billions and eat the cost to keep more USPS workers on the employment books then everything would be just roses.

    How so very delusional.

    Good night to you Obamunists. Nirvana is at hand. It’ll be easier if we let those illegal aliens in Florida vote. LOL

  240. avatar
    Scientist June 3, 2012 at 10:17 pm #

    MShaba: Good night to you Obamunists.

    So, you can’t show Maya’s birth certificate. Goodnight. liar…

  241. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2012 at 10:18 pm #

    MShaba: Wow a COLB with Indonesia really proves how useful it is to prove birth in the USA. LOL

    As I have shown, the fact that Obama’s COLB shows him born on US soil is prima facie evidence of his natural born status.

    I understand why you are running away now..

    PS: The USPS was in fact self funded and until the Republicans passed requirements that caused it to have to fund retirement on untenable terms, it was actually in fine shape. The Republicans managed to pass a law which now results in the lay off of many postal office workers. I am sure you see that as a good thing even though you do not even know the facts. The USPS has averaged a $1Billion dollar profit over the last half dozen years or so.

    Inform yourself or be doomed to let your ignorance allow others to manipulate you and expose you as foolish and uninformed. The USPS also does not take tax payer moneys. You foolish person…

  242. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2012 at 10:20 pm #

    Scientist: So, you can’t show Maya’s birth certificate. Goodnight. liar…

    Such is the inevitable outcome of those poor sods who allow their ignorance to make them make uninformed comments and look like the total fools they have become.

  243. avatar
    Majority Will June 3, 2012 at 10:24 pm #

    MShaba: How so very delusional.

    At least you admit you have a problem.

  244. avatar
    JPotter June 3, 2012 at 11:00 pm #

    Scientist: Now that’s intriguing, a debate on science issues.

    No, of course not a debate on theoretical science. Rather an opportunity to explain how science informs policy decisions. More of an opportunity for voters to evaluate how educated and rational a candidate is. Questions would touch on various contemporary areas in which policy should be informed by hard science. Energy production, transmission, and storage; environmental issues; information security; communications; stem cells and other health regulations; transportation technology and infrastructure; basic research to pursue; military research priorities; space exploration and development; climate change response and preparedness …

    Could go on for hours. Could—and should!—be its own series.

    But science is hard to fudge. Have to take chances, be willing to admit error, risk being wrong. Not that the debate would be about being right or wrong … but demonstrating how a person approaches issues, makes decisions, and deals with new information. How do they problem solve? Can they rationally evaluate data and claims of experts?

    There is a group pushing the idea. Hope it goes somewhere someday.
    http://www.sciencedebate.org/

  245. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 3, 2012 at 11:00 pm #

    Under Hawaiian law, Maya is not entitled to any kind of Hawaiian certificate, not even one that says she was born in Indonesia.

    nbc: Of course, no one so far has presented any evidence that Maya indeed has a Hawaiian COLB or Long form birth certificate.

  246. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 3, 2012 at 11:03 pm #

    MShaba:

    “Blah blah blah, woof woof, blither blather, lie lie lie.”

    Thank you. Being able to grab your comments and show them to sane moderate voters is doing more to re-elect President Obama than you can imagine.

    “See?” I tell them. “This is the state of the people you will be putting in charge if you vote against the President. People who have no ability to think. People who believe anything they see on the internet. People who mindlessly regurgitate utter lies, absolute garbage, and hold them up like the swords of medieval Crusaders as Weapons of Holy Truth, when they are in fact nothing but turds. This is the kind of toxic, hate-filled nitwit who opposes the President.”

    Congratulations. You are exhibit A in the case “Birfers are Loopy Gullible Dipsticks.”

  247. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 3, 2012 at 11:04 pm #

    This web site is for conspiracy theories and fringe views about Barack Obama. Any discussion of his performance in office (good or bad) is strictly off topic.

    Any further off-topic comments will be deleted, and all replies to them.

    MShaba: Yes things are great, look at the laughter and joy in the land of Obama. Unemployment going up and Americans thrilled, even though other unemployed are not counted.

  248. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 3, 2012 at 11:31 pm #

    That’s simply not true.

    There are two fundamental problems with what you say. First, the certificate issued for children born to Hawaiian parents out of state is not a COLB. Second, Maya Soetoro-Ng does not qualify for a certificate of out of state birth because her mother did not meet the residency requirements.

    What is, of course, troubling is that you would assert with confidence that Maya has a COLB, when no evidence has ever been offered that such a thing exists. You’re confusing rumors (and in this case a demonstrably false rumor) with facts.

    MShaba: Obama’s sister Maya has a COLB issued by Hawaii too. Where was she born? Indonesia.

  249. avatar
    nbc June 3, 2012 at 11:31 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Under Hawaiian law, Maya is not entitled to any kind of Hawaiian certificate, not even one that says she was born in Indonesia.

    That is true, she was born after her mother had left Hawaii more than a year earlier. You are correct. MShaba is so full of nonsense.

  250. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 3, 2012 at 11:35 pm #

    nbc:
    MShaba is so full of nonsense…

    …well, certainly full of something.

  251. avatar
    y_p_w June 4, 2012 at 12:29 am #

    Thrifty:
    No such thing exists.The United States does not issue birth certificates.The 50 states individually issue their own.

    I’ve noted before that there are a limited number of jurisdictions where a US government agency can actually issue a birth certificate. The US Dept of Homeland Security issues birth certificates in American Samoa. The State Dept also issues serves as the custodian of records for former US territories and can issue birth certificates for births while under US jurisdiction. If John S. McCain III wanted to obtain his official government birth certificate, he would need to send in a request to the State Dept and pay $50 for each copy.

    http://www.travel.state.gov/passport/faq/faq_5055.html

    However, it’s ludicrous to suggest that the COLB from Hawaii doesn’t meet the definition of a “birth certificate”. Plenty of people have obtained passports using the same form, and Hawaii has had two Little League World Series champions in the last ten years. Little League is one of the organizations that birthers claim won’t accept abstracts, but that’s patently untrue. They require “originals” of certified copies and won’t accept photocopies of certified copies.

  252. avatar
    Lupin June 4, 2012 at 3:20 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: That’s simply not true.

    Might I suggest you make this into a “cut & paste” document as well, as it seems to be the appropriate response to about 80% of the birthers’ claim.

    🙂

  253. avatar
    Keith June 4, 2012 at 3:54 am #

    MShaba: No a COLB from Hawaii is clearly not a birth certificate. See Maya. LOL

    Here is the thing: IF Maya has a Birth Certificate from Hawai’i it isn’t a COLB. It would be a COFB: Certificate of Foreign Birth. It would identify the ACTUAL location of her birth.

    There is no such thing as a ‘US Birth Certificate’ as in a Federally Issued Birth Certificate. There are Birth Certificates from American States and Hawai’i is an American State. In that sense, it most certainly is an ‘American Birth Certificate’.

    Even Maya’s COFB (if it in fact exists) is an ‘American Birth Certificate’ in that sense – even though it indicates that she was born in a foreign country. Such a COFB is a document of convenience – it is provided by the State of Hawai’i as a service to its citizens so they don’t have to constantly go through the Apostile system everytime they need to use their original foreign BC (possibly in a foreign language) for something. They go through it once with the State, and the State then vouches for it from then on.

    The Certificate, whether a COLB or a COFB always, ALWAYS, ALWAYS specifies the ACTUAL PLACE OF BIRTH. Your pointing out the existence of the COFB in Hawai’ian law does absolutely nothing to change the fact that Birth Certificates certify the actual location of the birth, whether foreign or domestic and date of birth. End of story.

  254. avatar
    Keith June 4, 2012 at 3:57 am #

    Scientist: Portugal? OK, not sure about them…

    Forgot to tax recreational drugs when they legalized them all?

  255. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 4, 2012 at 10:18 am #

    Actually there is. It’s called a Consular Certificate of Birth Abroad.

    Keith: There is no such thing as a ‘US Birth Certificate’ as in a Federally Issued Birth Certificate.

  256. avatar
    y_p_w June 4, 2012 at 10:21 am #

    Keith: There is no such thing as a ‘US Birth Certificate’ as in a Federally Issued Birth Certificate. There are Birth Certificates from American States and Hawai’i is an American State. In that sense, it most certainly is an ‘American Birth Certificate’.

    I’ve noted before that there are some outliers.

    American Samoa BCs are issued by the US Dept of Homeland Security:

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/w2w/american_samoa.htm

    And of course Panama Canal Zone BCs for births from February 26, 1904 and September 30, 1979 are now issued by the State Department.

    http://panama.usembassy.gov/obtaining_former_panama_canal_zone_documentation.html
    http://www.travel.state.gov/passport/faq/faq_5055.html

  257. avatar
    sfjeff June 4, 2012 at 1:34 pm #

    MShabaShould Obama win, it’s going to be worse. You heard it here first.

    Oh not really first. I have heard Republicans say if Obama wins it is the end of the United States. Seriously- some people think the United States is so fragile that a second term of Obama will destroy it entirely.

    Me? I have more faith in our Constitution and Americans. Regardless of whether Obama or Romney wins, the power still still flow to our houses, the grocery stores will still have food, and China won’t be invading.