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An open letter Jerry Collette

Jerry,

I must say you handled yourself well on the RC Radio show. We probably got more substance on this show than any other birther/anti-birther confrontation I’ve listened to.

As I listened there were a few things I wanted to put before you at leisure.

I want to dig into the moral issue first. Let’s say that I believe that all conventional medicine is bunk and the only thing that heals is crystals. My neighbor has high blood pressure that is being managed by medication, but I tell him that he could be cured once and for all with crystals. My neighbor doesn’t buy it. So I email my neighbor a link to a web site, CrystalsCureYou.com. The next day, I have another crystal believer come over and the two of us visit my neighbor. Then I send him another web link to DoctorsAreQuacks.com, and the next day I drop off a copy of the book Crystal Power. Next day a link to PrescriptionDrugsKill.com. I persuade my neighbor to at least read the Crystal Medicine Advocacy Internet forum. I recommend online classes in crystal therapy. After 6 months of saturating my neighbor with pro-crystal material, he develops doubts about the way he’s managing his high blood pressure and decides to stop taking his medicine and give crystals a try. His blood pressure shoots up, he has a stroke, and dies.

In this story, I am doing what I believe is right, but is what I did right? I would say no, and the reason is that I gave advice to someone without applying a scientific methodology to evaluate treatment effectiveness before I gave advice and then pressured them into accepting it. My actions were reckless and they resulted in a death. In your case, you’re bringing a lawsuit and the very fact you bring the lawsuit is advising people to believe that their President is a usurper, but more than that, you actually provide a “kit” for other people to bring lawsuits.

You may know the Scripture, James 3:1

Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

As one who runs a web site on Obama conspiracy theories, I feel a tremendous weight of responsibility to check and double-check what I say and the positions I take. I don’t do things based on feeling, I do them based on facts. I force myself to study things I would normally dismiss out of hand. I make mistakes, but it pains me when I do, and I work hard to correct them. You seem to be rather cavalier about your significant misstatements of fact – “I’ll fix it later, “It’s just for the press,” “it’s not relevant to my case.”

Frankly, I would stake my life that Obama was born in Hawaii, without pause, because the evidence is so overwhelming.

I heard you make several statements (e.g. about Abercrombie and Tim Adams) related to where Obama was born that are straight off some birther web site (including WND in that category) and blatant distortions of fact. You have not done due diligence on the premises that led you to doubt where was Obama was born. You take information from birther web sites, and don’t check original sources. You are as negligent as the crystal believer trying to tell his neighbor now to treat high blood pressure.

So let me tell you how I know Obama was born in Hawaii (full documentation on this site for every item following):

  1. Barack Obama released his official Hawaiian birth certificate on June 12, 2008.
  2. Obama’s parents lived in Hawaii (a short trip to Kapi’olani Hospital) and most of the time children are born where their parents live.
  3. The Immigration files of Barack Obama Sr. categorically state that he did not leave the country in 1961.
  4. The INS statistical report for July 1, 1961 – June 30 states that NO American citizens traveled to the US by air on a trip starting in Kenya that whole year! Ann Obama could have traveled to Kenya, but not returned. (This is not surprising considering how expensive the trip was.)
  5. Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Republican, Director of the Hawaii Department of Health personally inspected Obama’s original birth certificate in the files in Hawaii and said it was there and Obama was born in Hawaii. Her statement is on the State web site, and she was interviewed on CNN confirming.
  6. Dr. Alvin Onaka, Chief of Vital Records, has sent a signed and sealed verification of Obama’s birth in Hawaii to the Secretary of State of Arizona, and it now resides on the Arizona State web site.
  7. Dr. Onaka has sent a signed and sealed verification filed with the Federal Court in Mississippi stating that he examined the long form PDF file on the White House web site and that it matches the original in the Department files in every respect.
  8. Dr. Loretta Fuddy, Democrat, Director of the Hawaii Department of Health, has stated on the Department web site that Barack Obama’s birth certificate is in the files, that she has personally inspected it, and that a copy was provided to the President (a couple of days before the White House released it).
  9. The Long Form birth certificate original certified copy was presented to the Press at the White House news conference, and one correspondent, Savannah Guthrie, snapped a photo of it and stated that she “felt the raised seal.” It is irresponsible to say that the long form hasn’t been released.
  10. An August 1961 hand-written memo from William Wood II in the State Department files for Obama Sr. state that Barack Obama II was born on August 4, 1961 in Honolulu.
  11. Obama’s birth was reported in 1961 in two competing Honolulu newspapers, from a list provided by the Health Department. A long-time reporter interviewed by CNN stated that parents could not submit names to these columns. Obama’s name appears in the same order in both papers, proving that they came from the same list.
  12. A trip to Africa would have been prohibitively expensive in 1961, and would have been extremely arduous (3 days) for a pregnant woman.
  13. Barbara Nelson recalls a conversation with Dr. West who practiced at Kapi’olani who told her that “Stanley had a baby.”
  14. Jon Chessoni, first Secretary at the Kenyan Embassy in Washington, DC, said, speaking of inquiries the Embassy received about President Obama being born in Kenya: “When this matter first came up, the Kenyan government did its research and confirmed that these are all baseless claims.”
  15. Hawaiian Law in 1961 did not allow issuance of a birth certificate except for persons born in Hawaii.
  16. Barack Obama appears in the 1961 bound birth index available for inspection at the Department of Health in Hawaii. (Several videos, including one from CNN confirm).

Notice that in every case, I cited a law or the statement of a named person who in the course of their job (except we don’t know who William Wood is) was in a position to know  the facts that they state. I compare this to the birther evidence from anonymous sources, documents that just “appeared” on the Internet with no provenance, claims from people like Tim Adams who had no access to the records he claimed showed what he said (and changed his story a few times), and persons never recognized as experts anywhere claiming to be experts. In fact four credentialed document experts looked at the Obama long form and said no indication of fraud. You’d never know that reading the birther press.

I have examined birther evidence for 4 years now and every bit of it falls apart. There is no smoking gun. There is a steady drip of misinformation that because of its persistence (and the echo chamber of the Internet communities who reinforce each other) have raised baseless doubts, but doubts once raised just reinforce themselves until they get out of control and result in the inability to hear opposing arguments.

Let’s say I did an experiment. I believe that watering plants is harmful. I plant 100 specimens and my gardener waters them. 99 do well, but one dies. My gardener tells me he forgot to water that one plant, but I don’t believe him. I conclude, based on that dead plant that watering plants is harmful. You’d think I was pretty strange.

Well you look at 100 published reports (e.g. Harvard biography, newspaper pieces, book) that say Obama was born in Hawaii, and one rather persistent error that didn’t get fixed, and say that is what you’re going to believe. The person who made the error says that she didn’t have any information from Obama saying about his being born in Kenya, but you don’t believe her. Well I think THAT is pretty strange, only I understand it; It’s called “confirmation bias.” Confirmation bias means we tend to accept evidence that reinforces what we already believe, and we downplay or reject evidence that goes against us. We all have it. Conspiracy theorists have it bad. You believe Tim Adams who had no access to birth records when he says there is no birth certificate, but you don’t believe Dr. Fuddy, Dr. Onaka and Dr. Fukino who are in charge of them. Is that rational? It’s confirmation bias in action.

You should go back and listen to yourself. Normal people say that the courts decide things based on their best judgment, but the judgment isn’t going your way so you make excuses. “The courts are afraid of chaos.” But you believe that it would create chaos because you think Obama being declared ineligible would invalidate every law he signed and order he issued. But that is legal nonsense (see de facto officer doctrine) that you likely got from some birther web site. You reached a conclusion, excusing yourself from paying attention to what the courts are telling you based on faulty information. You didn’t do diligence, you didn’t check your facts, and you are spreading false information about what would happen if a president were declared ineligible. Doesn’t that bother you at all?

I believe that you have been sloppy and negligent bringing a claim that Obama was foreign born. You have let crackpots persuade you, you have fallen prey to confirmation bias, you have not reasoned soundly, and you have made a big mistake. I don’t mean to imply that you’re not smart; smart people get sucked into the weirdest theories. You’re just not applying your intelligence, but letting your self be fooled by people whose intention is to fool you and others for political advantage. I  believe that people who advocate for a cause have a moral duty to make sure they are right BEFORE they try to persuade others.

Kevin

PS. Your views on the meaning of “natural born citizen” are equally the product of a lack of due diligence and confirmation bias, but that’s for another time.

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229 Responses to An open letter Jerry Collette

  1. avatar
    richCares June 20, 2012 at 1:16 am #

    “You should go back and listen to yourself. ”
    .
    good advice, may help him out of his delusions (unlikely)
    to say he will lose his case is an easy call

  2. avatar
    JPotter June 20, 2012 at 1:23 am #

    Plenty of whoppers in the conversation, but the most striking giveaway is the attitude of the conversation …. for Collette, it’s about what he believes (his headspace) not demonstrable, investigable fact (consensual reality). As is typical with all conversations with birthers I’ve heard …. it’s a psych eval,by necessity!

  3. avatar
    G June 20, 2012 at 1:38 am #

    Well said Doc C! Your entire letter here is SPOT on and really addresses the issues and concerns well.

    In particular, I wish to re-emphasize the following points you made to Mr. Collete, as I do believe that he intends to be sincere and honest, but just hasn’t grasped any of the real impacts from his cavalier tunnel-vision on fact-checking his own confirmation biases…

    So, to Mr. Collete, please do some sincere and deeply introspective reflection here:

    I heard you make several statement related to where Obama was born that are straight off some birther web site (including WND in that category) and are blatant distortions of fact. You have not done due diligence on the premises that led you to doubt where was Obama was born. You take information from birther web sites, and don’t check original sources. You are as negligent as the crystal believer trying to tell his neighbor now to treat high blood pressure.

    I believe that you have been sloppy and negligent bringing a claim that Obama was foreign born. You have let cranks persuade you, you have fallen prey to confirmation bias, you have not reasoned soundly, and you have made a big mistake. I don’t mean to imply that you’re not smart; smart people get sucked into the weirdest theories. You’re just not applying your intelligence, but letting your self be fooled by people whose intention is to fool you and others for political advantage. I believe that people who advocate for a cause have a moral duty to make sure they are right BEFORE they try to persuade others.
    </blockquote

  4. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 1:40 am #

    It is an incredibly difficult thing to question your own assumptions. If I didn’t think Jerry had a chance, I wouldn’t have invested two hours writing that open letter.

    It is clear that Jerry hasn’t realized the extent to which birthers are liars. He’s naive when it comes to trusting birther web sites, and he doesn’t check original sources. All the birthers are like that unfortunately.

    richCares: good advice, may help him out of his delusions (unlikely)

  5. avatar
    Reality Check June 20, 2012 at 1:41 am #

    First I want to thank Jerry for taking time to come on my show. I know from correspondence we had that his good friend Sam Sewell probably advised him not to do it.

    I take Jerry Collette at his word that he is out for truth. I believe he is wrong on many things especially his view that the courts are some kind of tool to be used in an exploratory manner.

    I think Jerry could make a very useful contribution if he would follow the advice in Psalms 31:3 “For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name’s sake lead me, and guide me.” and read this blog and other sites with an open mind guided by his faith. He would then see the folly of his ways in defaming an honest father and husband who has led an exemplary life and been completely honest unlike very few other politicians in our lifetime. He could make a lasting and important contribution by renouncing those who lie and have mislead him.

    I will be interested to see if Jerry is really interested in the truth or just following down the same paths as others who call themselves patriots but act in opposite. Those false patriots will detest him for acting courageously and it will not be easy.

  6. avatar
    Chef June 20, 2012 at 1:41 am #

    You’re the best!

  7. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 1:42 am #

    Sometimes I wax passionate.

    G: Well said Doc C! Your entire letter here is SPOT on and really addresses the issues and concerns well.

  8. avatar
    TheEuropean June 20, 2012 at 3:14 am #

    Doc, though I do not share all of your beliefs I have to say that I adore your attitude and your investment.

    Sincerely

    Your European

  9. avatar
    linda June 20, 2012 at 3:38 am #

    Well done, Doc. Both the letter and the Realty Radio. This was the first time listening for me and I enjoyed it.

  10. avatar
    Sam the Centipede June 20, 2012 at 6:50 am #

    Reality Check:
    … I think Jerry could make a very useful contribution if he would follow the advice in Psalms 31:3 …

    Thanks for the RC program, I only heard about half an hour of it as it was in the middle of the night in my current time zone, but that was certainly enough I think to get the flavor of the discussion. It was certainly enough for me to be astounded at Collette’s ignorance of the verifications from officials in Hawai’i about Obama’s birth records and amazed at Collette’s mis-understanding of the function of courts.

    But can’t you see the problem in your advice (quoted above)? My (unsubstantiated) guess is that one of the roots of this birther nonsense is precisely the prevalence of fervent Christianity in the USA. If one approached the Christian faith (or any religion) with the same analytic and honest attitude as we ask of birthers, one would conclude fairly quickly that it’s a collation of centuries old myths, rituals and fads, updated and adapted to whatever the requirements of the current crop of church leaders desire. So how can one expect birthers to reject Arpaio’s arseholery, Zebest’s burbling, Klayman’s swerving silliness, Taitz’s dribbling drivel, etc. when many swallow the fantastically implausible stories in the Bible wholesale? And perhaps congratulate themselves on their lack of skepticism, because that’s exactly what “faith” is – lack of skepticism?

    In post-Enlightenment European Christianity there is a more skeptical outlook, religion is not allowed to poison rational thought and reasoned debate. But in the USA you have armies of preachers screaming at their flocks “listen to me! believe what I say! only I and my people have the truth! everybody else lies! the false prophets say they have the truth but they mislead you! give me money!”.

    It is completely unfair and unreasonable to expect people to be evidence-based and rational in one area of their lives while being faith-based and irrational in another area (one which many hold dear).

    Of course, I don’t blame religion for all of these woes; the main drivers of birtherism seem to be racism and a right-wing exceptionalism. (Again, i assert without evidence!) And I am very much in favor of freedom of religion, even if I don’t shop an any religion’s store.

    One cannot come to truth through falsehoods.

  11. avatar
    bob j June 20, 2012 at 7:14 am #

    “I don’t mean to imply that you’re not smart; smart people get sucked into the weirdest theories. You’re just not applying your intelligence, but letting your self be fooled by people whose intention is to fool you and others for political advantage. I believe that people who advocate for a cause have a moral duty to make sure they are right BEFORE they try to persuade others”

    Is it okay to use the above quote, a lot (always be properly cited, of course)?

  12. avatar
    Majority Will June 20, 2012 at 7:57 am #

    I will venture to guess that Sam Sewell has already convinced Jerry that everything you wrote are nothing but foolish lies and Obot propaganda.

    Any takers on that bet?

    Drip . . . drip . . . drip.

  13. avatar
    Reality Check June 20, 2012 at 8:27 am #

    Unfortunately you are probably correct. However, wouldn’t it be neat if just one Birther actually said “You know I was wrong. I was reading the wrong sources and talking to the wrong people. Now that I see all these facts on Doc’s blog and other sites this isn’t an issue. I apologize to President Obama.”?

    Majority Will: I will venture to guess that Sam Sewell has already convinced Jerry that everything you wrote are nothing but foolish lies and Obot propaganda.

  14. avatar
    realist June 20, 2012 at 8:38 am #

    Reality Check:
    First I want to thank Jerry for taking time to come on my show. I know from correspondence we had that his good friend Sam Sewell probably advised him not to do it.

    I take Jerry Collette at his word that he is out for truth. I believe he is wrong on many things especially his view that the courts are some kind of tool to be used in an exploratory manner.

    I was unable to listen to the show last night, but will this morning while working. I too share in thanks for Jerry coming on the show and not backing out as so many have. Kudos.

    As to believing he is only after the truth, I do not have to listen to the show to strongly disagree. First, the truth is out there for anyone of moderate intelligence to see.

    If he indeed began legal training but dropped out, then has worked as a paralegal, he’d know better than the ridiculous legal premises he puts forth regarding the courts and their purpose and the law and procedure. Of course, working for Roni Deutch, not exactly the poster child for veracity, doesn’t speak well for his judgment. Yes, I realize everyone has to have a job and income. That aside, her practice was anything but a shining example of the practice of law. She was a scammer, nothing more.

    Further, if he really cared about the law and getting his case heard (which will most likely not happen, but just sayin’) he would not have dismissed out of hand a wealth of legal advice presented to him here by (I know for certain at least one) experienced and brilliant attorney and litigator, Tes.

    If he cared about the law and learning anything and was a decent paralegal he would not have created a DIY birther case kit with the aim of enticing birthers to file baseless lawsuits all over Florida.

    Sorry, but I don’t share the love.

    If I ever see/hear anything to change my mind, I’ll be more than happy to come back and post that also.

  15. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 20, 2012 at 8:38 am #

    “It’s easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.” — Mark Twain

  16. avatar
    Majority Will June 20, 2012 at 9:14 am #

    Reality Check:
    Unfortunately you are probably correct. However, wouldn’t it be neat if just one Birther actually said “Youknow I was wrong. I was reading the wrong sources and talking to the wrong people. Now that I see all these facts on Doc’s blog and other sites this isn’t an issue. I apologize to President Obama.”?

    The “I was wrong” part is enough. But for even intelligent people resolving their own cognitive dissonance while firmly grasping their underlying motives of hatred and deep rooted prejudices makes an admission of error nearly impossible.

    That’s one of the reasons why “moving the goal posts” is so common among birthers.

    There’s a popular line from A Few Good Men that comes to mind. And it’s no secret that we live in a world that has many walls.

  17. avatar
    Majority Will June 20, 2012 at 9:28 am #

    And speaking of dissonance, it’s no surprise and quite telling that many birthers (as observed here and on many other forums) either openly deny or adamantly refuse to accept that a non-birther might be a conservative, an independent, a Republican or anyone who does not support and did not and will not vote for the President.

    That just blows their minds and it’s pretty easy to guess why.

  18. avatar
    bgansel9 June 20, 2012 at 9:30 am #

    “You’re just not applying your intelligence, but letting your self be fooled by people whose intention is to fool you and others for political advantage.”

    And monetary, don’t forget that. Birtherism is an industry for moneymaking, after all.

  19. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 9:36 am #

    I’m a Christian (officer in my church, sing in the choir, taught Sunday School). There’s nothing in the Christian faith that condones slander. Jesus himself said:

    That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.

    I talked about morality in my letter, but knowing that Mr. Collette is a Christian, I assumed that he would take the moral admonitions in a Christian context. Slander, and rumor mongering, is essentially what the birther movement is — the steady drip of misrepresentations and smears that wear down the hearer, that cause doubts. Slander defiles the one who does it. The Ten Commandments (the moral short list if you will) repudiates the birthers:

    You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor

    The religious person has no excuse for being a birther.

    Sam the Centipede: But can’t you see the problem in your advice (quoted above)? My (unsubstantiated) guess is that one of the roots of this birther nonsense is precisely the prevalence of fervent Christianity in the USA.

  20. avatar
    john June 20, 2012 at 9:36 am #

    Jerry,

    I’m a birther and I listen the RC Radio too. He is some compelling information that lead me to believe that Obama was born in Kenya. It’s a YouTube Video that compiles most of the evidence to together. In most cases, the evidence that supports a Kenyan birth Coorborate one another. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1grt5uehak&list=UUAbWSSlfgdK8_RMSv2jKMnQ&index=7&feature=plcp
    Obama literary agent claims Obama was Kenyan-born ~ Now DOZENS more articles confirm the same!

  21. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 20, 2012 at 9:37 am #

    I touched on exactly that premise last night near the end during my line of questioning. Jerry somehow thinks he can escape blame because he couldn’t be bothered to actually check his sources. Somehow he thinks its not his job to do his research before launching his frivolous lawsuit.

  22. avatar
    john June 20, 2012 at 9:41 am #

    Jerry, if you are still not convinced there is serious doubt Obama was born in Hawaii, I ask to watch of listen to the following videos.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx0XcTmYtSE
    Marine: 1980 In Hi. Obama Told Me He Was Born In Kenya And Wanted To Be President.

    http://www.wnd.com/2012/04/hollywood-producer-heard-bill-clinton-say-obama-ineligible/
    HOLLYWOOD PRODUCER HEARD BILL CLINTON SAY OBAMA INELIGIBLE
    Insider in Hillary’s 2008 campaign points to ‘original birthers’

    http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/postman-ayers-family-put-foreigner-obama-through-school/
    POSTMAN: AYERS FAMILY PUT ‘FOREIGNER’ OBAMA THROUGH SCHOOL
    Claims he met young Barack who boasted he’d someday be president

  23. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 9:43 am #

    Shhh! I’m trying to impress people with my uncanny ability to predict these things.

    richCares: to say he will lose his case is an easy call

  24. avatar
    bgansel9 June 20, 2012 at 9:43 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I’m a Christian (officer in my church, sing in the choir, taught Sunday School). There’s nothing in the Christian faith that condones slander. Jesus himself said:

    I talked about morality in my letter, but knowing that Mr. Collette is a Christian, I assumed that he would take the moral admonitions in a Christian context. Slander, and rumor mongering, is essentially what the birther movement is — the steady drip of misrepresentations and smears that wear down the hearer, that cause doubts. Slander defiles the one who does it. The Ten Commandments (the moral short list if you will) repudiates the birthers:

    The religious person has no excuse for being a birther.

    I’m NOT a Christian (I’m a former Christian, no longer am) and I completely agree with this. So long as Christianity exists, we can only hold the people who say they are Christians to their own savior’s doctrines and challenge them to take up his cross, and discard the lies of human men. Thanks, Doc.

  25. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 9:45 am #

    You may have heard Jerry say, and it’s on his web site as well, that he’s not so good with details. The problem is that even the most gifted legal strategist will run into the ditch if he doesn’t know what the facts of the case are. Or restated, you can’t make sound strategy based on unsound premises.

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): I touched on exactly that premise last night near the end during my line of questioning. Jerry somehow thinks he can escape blame because he couldn’t be bothered to actually check his sources. Somehow he thinks its not his job to do his research before launching his frivolous lawsuit.

  26. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 20, 2012 at 9:47 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: You may have heard Jerry say, and it’s on his web site as well, that he’s not so good with details. The problem is that even the most gifted legal strategist will run into the ditch if he doesn’t know what the facts of the case are. Or restated, you can’t make sound strategy based on unsound premises.

    Exactly. He also has a responsibility to do his research before launching a case. It’s the problem that he didn’t even think of some things. A good litigant would research every facet of their case to look for any holes. Same thing with a political campaign, that’s why they do opposition research.

  27. avatar
    Scientist June 20, 2012 at 9:48 am #

    realist: Sorry, but I don’t share the love

    Nor do I. Collette was mentored in scamming by Roni Deutch and has merely found a new scam now that hers has been shut down.

    Let us all remember that Jerry’s are not victimless acts. There is only so much money to fund the court systems, and right now there is nowhere near enough. Los Angeles County has laid off 157 court staff and put a whole bunch more on part time http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/06/la-superior-court-to-lay-off-150-workers-slash-salaries.html. This means that innocent suspects will wait longer in jail, victims of devastating tragedies will wait longer to have their cases heard. Justice delayed is justice denied.

    I doubt that where Jerry lives in Florida the courts are any more flush with cash than in LA. Jerry, by clogging the courts with his stale, worthless excrement (which has already been ruled on in 130 courts throughout the country), is denying justice to his fellow citizens. That is the plain truth.

  28. avatar
    richCares June 20, 2012 at 9:59 am #

    there is one way to convince Jerry of his follies, put all of john’s post in a memo and send it to Jerry. no one would want to associate with such an idiot.

  29. avatar
    john June 20, 2012 at 10:02 am #

    Jerry,

    I want to point something out that is extremely significant regarding the AZ verification form given to SOS Bennett. This is extremely important and goes to the very heart of the matter. Highly highly suspicious.
    First here is official verification form submitted to Bennett from the state of Hawaii – http://www.azcentral.com/12news/Obama-Verification.pdf

    It appears Bennett used the official and proper form that Hawaii has to get Verifications of Birth – http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/pdf/birth.pdf or Bennett issued a request that asked for specific elements of Obama’s birth to be verified.

    Now Jerry, look at the AZ Bennett Verification form. You will notice something very troubling, compelling and suspicious about it. Do you see it? OK, here it is…

    SOS Bennett asked Hawaii to verify 12 elements of Obama’s birth there. However, Bennett forgot to ask for the MOST IMPORTANT vital element to be verified –

    DATE OF BIRTH

    For The life of me, I can think no rational reason why Bennett would not have asked for this vital element to be verified. It make absolutely no sense.

    However, birthers have suggested that SOS Bennett did in fact ask for the DATE OF BIRTH but ultimately had to withdraw his request for verification for it. Why? It is believed that August 04, 1961 is NOT Obama’s birth date or that Obama’s vital record is legally non-valid and cannot be completely verified.

  30. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 20, 2012 at 10:05 am #

    richCares: there is one way to convince Jerry of his follies, put all of john’s post in a memo and send it to Jerry. no one would want to associate with such an idiot.

    You underestimate the power of the dark side.

  31. avatar
    john June 20, 2012 at 10:09 am #

    “Dr. Onaka has sent a signed and sealed verification filed with the Federal Court in Mississippi stating that he examined the long form PDF file on the White House web site and that it matches the original in the Department files in every respect.”

    *Actually this not true. The lawyers sent a letter to Hawaii asking that the “information” on the White House BC be verified. Onaka verified the “Information”. Unfortunately the lawyers failed to specify what “Information” they wanted verified and and Onaka did not specify which “Information” was verified. This is a significant concern because the lawyers failed to submit the official and proper form that should have submitted. In addition, it is believe that Onaka is involved in the cover up therefore his verification is self-serving can viewed as objectively credible.*

  32. avatar
    Majority Will June 20, 2012 at 10:13 am #

    richCares:
    there is one way to convince Jerry of his follies, put all of john’s post in a memo and send it to Jerry. no one would want to associate with such an idiot.

    Quite the contrary.

    Posts from “john” are EXACTLY what birthers want to hear. They don’t really care if the “evidence” is true or verifiable and readily admit to not checking the veracity or reliability of sources. They will tell you they can’t be bothered with that kind of responsibility.

    Spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt is work enough.

  33. avatar
    john June 20, 2012 at 10:17 am #

    Jerry,

    I also want you to listen to this video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvrb7YqdvxE
    Abercrombie Admits There Are No Obama Birth Records In Hawaii

    Mike Evans was interviewed on numerous radio shows and told the same story. After the story started getting lots of media attention, Mike Evan backpedalled. It is believed that Mike Evans was asked or threatened to change his story and he did.

    Because Gov. Abercrombie stated he couldn’t find the birth certificate, the media started really picking up.

    After Mike Evans changed his story, The Hawaii Attorney General ran interference for Abercrombie (very accurately put) and said Abercrombie couldn’t legally release anything. They did this kill the story and it was slowly buried. Today, Gov. Abercrombie adamantly refuses the discuss the matter.

  34. avatar
    JPotter June 20, 2012 at 10:20 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): I touched on exactly that premise last night near the end during my line of questioning. Jerry somehow thinks he can escape blame because he couldn’t be bothered to actually check his sources. Somehow he thinks its not his job to do his research before launching his frivolous lawsuit.

    That aspect was incredibly weaselly. I don’t believe Jerry is sincere, not a bit. He failed to demonstrate a mastery of any aspect of the topic, or even of his own filings, which he wrote! “I was just screwing around,” is not a good excuse for the crap he’s trying to pull. After seeing his comments here, his site, and listening to him last night, it’s a transparent, spineless, tapdancing routine. Insidious concern trolling online and off. Don’t fall for it or cut him any slack.

    I do hope he sees the error and pulls his head out.

  35. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 20, 2012 at 10:23 am #

    john: Now DOZENS more articles confirm the same!

    And what of the hundreds, if not thousands, of articles that confirm he was born in Hawaii?

  36. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 20, 2012 at 10:25 am #

    CarlOrcas: And what of the hundreds, if not thousands, of articles that confirm he was born in Hawaii?

    It’s like the tens of birthers outnumber the majority of the country.

  37. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 20, 2012 at 10:27 am #

    john: Jerry,I also want you to listen to this video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvrb7YqdvxEAbercrombie Admits There Are No Obama Birth Records In HawaiiMike Evans was interviewed on numerous radio shows and told the same story. After the story started getting lots of media attention, Mike Evan backpedalled. It is believed that Mike Evans was asked or threatened to change his story and he did.Because Gov. Abercrombie stated he couldn’t find the birth certificate, the media started really picking up.After Mike Evans changed his story, The Hawaii Attorney General ran interference for Abercrombie (very accurately put) and said Abercrombie couldn’t legally release anything. They did this kill the story and it was slowly buried. Today, Gov. Abercrombie adamantly refuses the discuss the matter.

    Having listened to Mike Evans’ story at the time it’s obvious he was overstating what happened. Common salesman tactic. He said he called and spoke with Abercrombie’s office he never specifically says he spoke to Abercrombie. Also at the time this story he told wasn’t even on his own website. When people called him on it he admitted he made it up. I know what a concept that a gossip reporter would make up gossip!

  38. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 20, 2012 at 10:30 am #

    CarlOrcas: And what of the hundreds, if not thousands, of articles that confirm he was born in Hawaii?

    Hey… john just gave you links to THREE examples of UTTERLY UNSUBSTANTIATED AND UNVERIFIABLE HEARSAY! That trumps all the actual evidence in the world!

    Game, set, match.

  39. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 10:30 am #

    What you believe, unless you have facts to back it up, is irrelevant.

    john: It is believed that Mike Evans was asked or threatened to change his story and he did.

  40. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 20, 2012 at 10:35 am #

    john: It is believed that August 04, 1961 is NOT Obama’s birth date or that Obama’s vital record is legally non-valid…

    … by people too stupid to tie their shoes or mail a letter.

  41. avatar
    bgansel9 June 20, 2012 at 10:36 am #

    John is so frightened that his new birther hero Jerry is going to be enlightened and he goes into panic mode. Laughable.

  42. avatar
    john June 20, 2012 at 10:36 am #

    Jerry,

    Obots also tout the official birth announcements in the Hawaii newpapers at the time. However, Sheriff Arpaio’s team has determined that the birth announcements ARE NOT credible sources of information to rely upon regarding the fact or instance of a Hawaii birth. Arpaio’s team has also discovered that there was lot of shady operations of selling Hawaii Birth Certificates back in the 1960’s. Doc C. might think otherwise, but he is not privy to the investigation which is ongoing criminal investigation so not all information can be released. Learn more hear.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiTFfrm5jvY&feature=player_embedded
    Sheriff Joe Arpaio’s Commander Says Mafia Sold Hawaiian Birth Certificates to Japanese Citizens.

  43. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 10:37 am #

    Any competent reader understands that when someone verifies “the information contained in the Certificate of Live Birth” that they mean all of the information, not some of it. Your objection is spurious.

    john: *Actually this not true. The lawyers sent a letter to Hawaii asking that the “information” on the White House BC be verified. Onaka verified the “Information”. Unfortunately the lawyers failed to specify what “Information” they wanted verified and and Onaka did not specify which “Information” was verified.

  44. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 20, 2012 at 10:40 am #

    john: Jerry, if you are still not convinced there is serious doubt Obama was born in Hawaii, I ask to watch of listen to the following videos.

    So, John, exactly why do you find uncoroborated recollections (one more than 30 years old) more convincing than two signed and sealed certifications from the State of Hawaii?

    No….this isn’t a trick question. It’s real and I’d appreciate you answering it.

  45. avatar
    john June 20, 2012 at 10:41 am #

    “What you believe, unless you have facts to back it up, is irrelevant.”

    I think is pretty reasonable to assume Mike Evans was asked to change his story. He told his story to like 6 different radio stations all stating the same story – That he talked with Abercrombie himself. Abercrombie’s Press Secretary was getting a ton of media attention. Suddenly Mike Evans backpedaled and the Hawaii AG suddenly runs interference (Very Accurately put) For Abercrombie. I don’t buy it. I believe Evans knew and knows the truth.

  46. avatar
    Scientist June 20, 2012 at 10:45 am #

    john: SOS Bennett asked Hawaii to verify 12 elements of Obama’s birth there. However, Bennett forgot to ask for the MOST IMPORTANT vital element to be verified –
    DATE OF BIRTH

    The only relevance of the date of birth would be if there was a question as to whether Obama was 35 when he took office. For that to have been the case , he would have had to have been born after January 1973. Since he was in high school in Hawaii in the 1970s and in college in 1980, that would seem impossible. Unless he was really, really brilliant, in which case, shouldn’t that mean that we should all want him as President? Anyway, to be ineligible now he would have to have been born after 1977, which would have had him in college at 3….

  47. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 20, 2012 at 10:47 am #

    john: *Actually this not true. The lawyers sent a letter to Hawaii asking that the “information” on the White House BC be verified. Onaka verified the “Information”. Unfortunately the lawyers failed to specify what “Information” they wanted verified and and Onaka did not specify which “Information” was verified. This is a significant concern because the lawyers failed to submit the official and proper form that should have submitted

    I’m amazed that you can type after twisting yourself into that knot.

  48. avatar
    john June 20, 2012 at 10:47 am #

    “Any competent reader understands that when someone verifies “the information contained in the Certificate of Live Birth” that they mean all of the information, not some of it. Your objection is spurious.”

    *Not neccessarily. Hawaii’s official and proper form is designed to verify specific elements of a vital record not to verify something that a person might possess (a piece of paper, an image on a computer, whatever). That’s why the form exists. The lawyers failed to use the form and just sent letter. Since letter was a legal request for verification, they did not specify what they wanted to be verified and they did not state they wanted the BC to be verified in its entirety. I believe there would grounds to object to the verification on this arguments.*

  49. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 20, 2012 at 10:54 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): It’s like the tens of birthers outnumber the majority of the country

    The pure of heart always win. (That’s a joke for the humor impaired.)

    One thing though……wasn’t Obama on the mainland….at Occidental or Columbia in 1980 when the Marine says he saw him in Hawaii?

    Maybe he stil had the time machine that got his mother back and forth to Kenya in 1961?

  50. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 20, 2012 at 10:55 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Any competent reader understands that when someone verifies “the information contained in the Certificate of Live Birth” that they mean all of the information, not some of it. Your objection is spurious.

    This came up last night with Jerry he didn’t know what the verification even entailed as he probably never read it. Onaka went line by line of the long form and verified the information.

    Doc you posted the verification last night. I’m not sure if you have a quick bookmark with the document or even a list of documents with links on this site. If not I think there should be a place for each document that verifies the hawaii birth.

  51. avatar
    Scientist June 20, 2012 at 10:59 am #

    Just to piss-off Jerry and john, let me add that even if you absolutely 100% proved that Obama was born in Kenya, you would still have not established that he is ineligible. There are several substantive arguments that could be raised that he would eligiible wherever he might have been born. None of them are slam dunks, but none of them are sure losers either.

  52. avatar
    john June 20, 2012 at 11:00 am #

    Jerry,
    http://www.wnd.com/files/110123adams1.pdf http://www.wnd.com/files/110123adams2.pdf
    Here are links to Tim Adam’s affidavit.

    Adam’s has taken some retaliation for publically stating about what he knows. For this reason it has been difficult to prove what Adam’s is stating is true because those whom he had worked for fear retaliation and refuse to talk or cooporate.

  53. avatar
    bgansel9 June 20, 2012 at 11:02 am #

    CarlOrcas: No….this isn’t a trick question. It’s real and I’d appreciate you answering it.

    Which is exactly why he will skip it.

  54. avatar
    Majority Will June 20, 2012 at 11:07 am #

    Scientist:
    Just to piss-off Jerry and john, let me add that even if you absolutely 100% proved that Obama was born in Kenya, you would still have not established that he is ineligible.There are several substantive arguments that could be raised that he would eligiible wherever he might have been born.None of them are slam dunks, but none of them are sure losers either.

    Coming from the land of dark, scary people isn’t enough for you? 😛

  55. avatar
    Scientist June 20, 2012 at 11:10 am #

    CarlOrcas: One thing though……wasn’t Obama on the mainland….at Occidental or Columbia in 1980 when the Marine says he saw him in Hawaii?

    Well, it was supposedly in August so he could have been back in Hawaii for the summer. But here’s the thing-we have a “Marine” with a fake name taken from a cartoon character. If he called himself “Pikachu” would he be more credible? He could be a guy making the whole thing up deliberately. Or he could be someone who actually was in Hawaii and met some other kid who was not Obama (he was not the only black kid in Hawaii in August 1980). Or it could have been Obama and he mis-heard or mis-understood. Or, it could have been Obama and he really did say that, but he was pulling the guy’s leg. After all casual conversations with strangers in coffee shops are not sworn to be true. Many people like to pretend when they meet strangers they are never going to see again. I might even have done it myself (don’t tell anyone, promise?) It’s immaterial. You can’t put any store in a YouTube video by a pseudonymous person.

  56. avatar
    Scientist June 20, 2012 at 11:12 am #

    Majority Will: Coming from the land of dark, scary people isn’t enough for you?

    We’ve covered that already. The only people I believe are barred from being President are Red Sox fans. The Adamses would have been barred had the Red Sox existed back then.

  57. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 11:16 am #

    That’s right, John. People who admit what they said is not true — are telling the truth, and people who consistently stick by their story are liars. Anonymous people always know more than real people. People who have no way to know something speak with authority, and those who definitely know cannot be believed. Convicted forgers make authentic documents, but US Presidents make fakes. Credentialed experts don’t know what they are talking about, but self-appointed experts are the best. And finally, pro se defendants know the law, but the county, state and federal judges are clueless.

    I don’t know how people this screwed up stay alive in the complex modern world. Perhaps Social Security is the explanation.

    john: After Mike Evans changed his story, The Hawaii Attorney General ran interference for Abercrombie (very accurately put) and said Abercrombie couldn’t legally release anything

  58. avatar
    Arthur June 20, 2012 at 11:19 am #

    In my experience, john never answers questions and rarely responds to comments. He broadcasts but doesn’t receive.

    CarlOrcas: So, John, exactly why do you find uncoroborated recollections (one more than 30 years old) more convincing than two signed and sealed certifications from the State of Hawaii?

    No….this isn’t a trick question. It’s real and I’d appreciate you answering it.

  59. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 11:23 am #

    The birther posse in Arizona has offered no evidence to support this claim, nor any other of their claims.

    john: Arpaio’s team has also discovered that there was lot of shady operations of selling Hawaii Birth Certificates back in the 1960′s

  60. avatar
    MattR June 20, 2012 at 11:23 am #

    Scientist: After all casual conversations with strangers in coffee shops are not sworn to be true. Many people like to pretend when they meet strangers they are never going to see again

    I could disclose a lifetime’s worth of W2’s, bank statements, tax returns and other financial records showing that I don’t have much money (or assets) nor have I ever earned a bunch in a single year, but none of that matters to John if I also told a girl in a bar one night that I was rich.

    And I have even made up stories when talking to family. You go to a family wedding right after graduating college and you quickly get bored repeating the same conversation over and over about what you are planning on doing next with your life.

  61. avatar
    bgansel9 June 20, 2012 at 11:27 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    The birther posse in Arizona has offered no evidence to support this claim, nor any other of their claims.

    I would like to thank John for putting this nonsense out there though, as it will become very useful to us here in Arizona when we show that Arpaio is playing to a fan base of people who can’t distinguish facts from fiction and is involving himself in matters that are out of his jurisdiction and embarrassing to our state.

  62. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 11:28 am #

    Despite repeated grilling, Tim Adams has consistently refused to explain how he knows Obama has no birth certificate. First he said he had access to “databases.” Which database? Silence. Then he said he was told by a supervisor. What supervisor, and how did the supervisor know? Silence. He said the hospital was called. Who called? Silence. Who did they talk to? Silence. Exactly what did they say? Silence.

    I personally contacted the Honolulu City Clerk’s office (the elections division is under the City Clerk in Honolulu) where Tim Adams worked: no one in that office has access to birth records, only the Department of Health has that.

    Tim Adams’ affidavit (which answers none of the questions, by the way) is BS, pure and simple.

    john: Adam’s has taken some retaliation for publically (sic) stating about what he knows

  63. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 20, 2012 at 11:28 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Anonymous people always know more than real people. People who have no way to know something speak with authority, and those who definitely know cannot be believed. Convicted forgers make authentic documents, but US Presidents make fakes. Credentialed experts don’t know what they are talking about, but self-appointed experts are the best. And finally, pro se defendants know the law, but the county, state and federal judges are clueless.

    By George, I think you’ve got it!

  64. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 20, 2012 at 11:38 am #

    bgansel9: Which is exactly why he will skip it.

    Of course. What he, and his ilk, don’t understand is that their silence speaks volumes.

  65. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 20, 2012 at 11:38 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Despite repeated grilling, Tim Adams has consistently refused to explain how he knows Obama has no birth certificate. First he said he had access to “databases.” Which database? Silence. Then he said he was told by a supervisor. What supervisor, and how did the supervisor know? Silence. He said the hospital was called. Who called? Silence. Who did they talk to? Silence. Exactly what did they say? Silence.I personally contacted the Honolulu City Clerk’s office (the elections division is under the City Clerk in Honolulu) where Tim Adams worked: no one in that office has access to birth records, only the Department of Health has that.Tim Adams’ affidavit (which answers none of the questions, by the way) is BS, pure and simple.

    Not to mention Adams admitted on RC Radio that WND paid for and drafted the affidavit for him.

  66. avatar
    Chef June 20, 2012 at 11:39 am #

    Besides, it’s crystal-clear that the President can show a pdf and not an actual document because of like executive privilege and stuff.

    Birfoons can argue with us all they want, but they can’t argue with the law!

  67. avatar
    Jim June 20, 2012 at 11:46 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Despite repeated grilling, Tim Adams has consistently refused to explain how he knows Obama has no birth certificate. First he said he had access to “databases.” Which database? Silence. Then he said he was told by a supervisor. What supervisor, and how did the supervisor know? Silence. He said the hospital was called. Who called? Silence. Who did they talk to? Silence. Exactly what did they say? Silence.

    I personally contacted the Honolulu City Clerk’s office (the elections division is under the City Clerk in Honolulu) where Tim Adams worked: no one in that office has access to birth records, only the Department of Health has that.

    Tim Adams’ affidavit (which answersnone of the questions, by the way) is BS, pure and simple.

    Actually, I took his affidavit as a positive for the State of Hawaii DOH. His affidavit is further proof that the DOH protects its records from prying eyes and people with no legal rights to the records. Further showing how difficult it would have been for someone to add a forged document to their records.

  68. avatar
    bgansel9 June 20, 2012 at 11:52 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I personally contacted the Honolulu City Clerk’s office (the elections division is under the City Clerk in Honolulu) where Tim Adams worked: no one in that office has access to birth records, only the Department of Health has that.

    I have never been to any place that this Tim Adams frequents. I’m curious, does he have a birther website complete with a paypal donation button?

  69. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 20, 2012 at 11:53 am #

    Scientist:
    Well, it was supposedly in August so he could have been back in Hawaii for the summer. But here’s the thing-we have a “Marine” with a fake name taken from a cartoon character. If he called himself “Pikachu” would he be more credible? He could be a guy making the whole thing up deliberately. Or he could be someone who actually was in Hawaii and met some other kid who was not Obama (he was not the only black kid in Hawaii in August 1980). Or it could have been Obama and he mis-heard or mis-understood. Or, it could have been Obama and he really did say that, but he was pulling the guy’s leg. After all casual conversations with strangers in coffee shops are not sworn to be true. Many people like to pretend when they meet strangers they are never going to see again. I might even have done it myself (don’t tell anyone, promise?) It’s immaterial. You can’t put any store in a YouTube video by a pseudonymous person.

    I wondered about him. A quick Google search only picked up references to this story. Nothing else in his “life”. Any idea who he really is?

    Since Obama was in college in 1980 it would seem unlikely he would be jetting around but it is possible.

    As far as blacks in Hawaii is concerned the Census Bureau says there were about 17,000 in the state in 1980.

    As usual birthers demonstrate their gullibility by throwing stuff up against the wall without taking a nanosecond to think about it or check it out.

  70. avatar
    richCares June 20, 2012 at 11:56 am #

    CHEF “Besides, it’s crystal-clear that the President can show a pdf and not an actual document because of like executive privilege and stuff.”
    .
    tell us dear CHEF, what was that document that reporters were shown, the one with the raised seal, the one Guntrhie took a photo of and commented on the raised seal. hint: it was not a pdf!

  71. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 20, 2012 at 11:59 am #

    john: Doc C. might think otherwise, but he is not privy to the investigation which is ongoing criminal investigation so not all information can be released.

    And what are you “privy” to, John, that makes you so sure?

  72. avatar
    JPotter June 20, 2012 at 12:01 pm #

    Chef: Besides, it’s crystal-clear that the President can show a pdf and not an actual document because of like executive privilege and stuff.Birfoons can argue with us all they want, but they can’t argue with the law!

    It’s worse than that, Chef. In regards to birth certificates, most previous Presidents ran on nothing but air! 😛

  73. avatar
    JoZeppy June 20, 2012 at 12:01 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Tim Adams’ affidavit (which answers none of the questions, by the way) is BS, pure and simple.

    More to the point, his affidavit says absolutely nothing. Even if we were to accept everything in it as 100% true, it is nothing more than a statement about office gossip. It is 100% pure, inadmissable hearsay. He says he was told by others that no record existed. Note he has no direct knowledge of anything. He can’t say he checked because contrary to his original story, it was confirmed by the State that he, nor anyone else in his office had access to vital records. He doesn’t even say that those that told him no record existed checked. He merely says they told him State officials checked. He does not identify either the supervisors he claims made those statements, or the “officials” that made the inquiries, or how they would have even had access to those records, or why the division he tempted in, would be checking into the records of an individual that is not registered to vote in that State.

    So great, you have a sworn statement, that besides being inadmissable in a court of law as hearsay, actually says nothing of consequence what so ever. Congratulations on presenting a genuinely meaningless document.

  74. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 12:04 pm #

    Ya, sure.

    bob j: Is it okay to use the above quote, a lot (always be properly cited, of course)?

  75. avatar
    Bob June 20, 2012 at 12:10 pm #

    CarlOrcas: And what are you “privy” to, John, that makes you so sure?

    The entire history of Birtherism is nothing but empty threats . . . nothing.

  76. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 12:11 pm #

    So are you saying Barack Obama is not at least 35 years old? Wow, now THAT would be a constitutional crisis. Eldridge Cleaver was kicked off the ballot in a few states because he wasn’t 35. You got PRECEDENT! Run with it.

    john: SOS Bennett asked Hawaii to verify 12 elements of Obama’s birth there. However, Bennett forgot to ask for the MOST IMPORTANT vital element to be verified –

    DATE OF BIRTH

  77. avatar
    bgansel9 June 20, 2012 at 12:11 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I wondered about him. A quick Google search only picked up references to this story. Nothing else in his “life”. Any idea who he really is?

    i don’t think he would be jetting around, but on summer break from classes and at home close to his family.

    That said, the rest of the story sounds like utter b.s.

  78. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 12:14 pm #

    Maybe he doesn’t have indoor plumbing yet.

    CarlOrcas: And what are you “privy” to, John, that makes you so sure?

  79. avatar
    bgansel9 June 20, 2012 at 12:16 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: So are you saying Barack Obama is not at least 35 years old? Wow, now THAT would be a constitutional crisis. Eldridge Cleaver was kicked off the ballot in a few states because he wasn’t 35. You PRECEDENT! Run with it.

    You know, it might be to our advantage to encourage them to open this line of inquiry. I say every birther pro se plaintiff and every birther lawyer should file a case based on the question of Obama’s actual age.

    When the presidents age is proven to be more than 35, we could slay and flay birtherism completely wide open in one swell foop! 😛

  80. avatar
    Wilson June 20, 2012 at 12:34 pm #

    I don’t understand how Birthers think that Tim Adams’ affidavit has any merit. Anyone can say I was told something from an Un-Named Source.For example “I swear under Oath that I was told the Tooth Fairy leaves silver dollars under my pillow for a tooth.”

    My declaration is truthful because I was told that but the content is “A Fairy Tale.”

    Also I find it hard to argue against the Birther Lies because they travel like wildfire. And as more Birther sites pickup the lie they expand on it. Just like the “Obama’s Attorney Admits Birth Certificate is a Forgery” LIE.Even with the video right there on the internet they all believe it is true even when they can’t point to the minute mark where she was supposed to have said it. When you argue that if she said it they would have cropped the very point where it was said and that would have been pasted everywhere. But they still believe and refuse to accept it is a LIE.

  81. avatar
    john June 20, 2012 at 12:35 pm #

    “So are you saying Barack Obama is not at least 35 years old? Wow, now THAT would be a constitutional crisis. Eldridge Cleaver was kicked off the ballot in a few states because he wasn’t 35. You got PRECEDENT! Run with it.”

    If you are going verify someone’s birth somewhere the first thing you going to ask is the DATE OF BIRTH. It is extremely troubling and suspicious that SOS Bennett did not ask for this to be verified. For the life of me, I can’t explain why. The verifications that SOS Bennett specified are extremely troubling. Why in world would Bennett ask for TIME OF BIRTH to be verified but not the DATE OF BIRTH. It makes absolutely no sense. Bennett also failed to verify the identity of the parents but asked for their AGES to be verified. Again this make no sense. Birthers, particularily Butterdezillion have suggested why these elements were not verified.

  82. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 20, 2012 at 12:35 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Maybe he doesn’t have indoor plumbing yet.

    That would explain so much.

  83. avatar
    JPotter June 20, 2012 at 12:36 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Anonymous people always know more than real people …

    Absolutely and a great run-down …. as I’ve been commenting, it’s all inverted in the Birtherverse, the parallel, upside-down, mirrored reality of the irrational.

    Something that struck me when Lani and HellT noted possible errors in Amazon product descriptions, in parallel with all the typo-huinting the birther are engaged in. When you see an error, or encounter new information that seems wrong, it’s normal to assume there’s an explanation. You’re missing something, it’s a simple mistake, could be anything, but it almost certainly isn’t sinister or disingenuous and definitely not intentionally misleading. 99% of people can be assumed to be earnest. At worst, it may lead to a simple disagreement.

    Yep, that’s how normal entities deal with each other.

    And then, there are the spinners, the belief über alles types. The dream peddlers.

    I recall first encountering birtherism, approaching Vogt’s report like I would anything else, and quickly realizing I’d entered a funhouse hall of mirrors.

    Dealing with this silliness efficiently requires flipping the script: assume information from birthers is crap, backwards, a lie, intentionally misleading. Birthers complain about being received this way … but hey, they’re making their own reality. In terms of their reception, it’s the only part of their made reality that comes true!

  84. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 20, 2012 at 12:43 pm #

    bgansel9: don’t think he would be jetting around, but on summer break from classes and at home close to his

    BS it is!!

    I wonder what the roundtrip airfare from New York (or LA) to Honolulu would have been in 1980?

  85. avatar
    gorefan June 20, 2012 at 12:48 pm #

    Scientist: Well, it was supposedly in August so he could have been back in Hawaii for the summer.

    Here is the guys original story.

    http://noiri.blogspot.com/2009/11/first-hand-witness-to-obama-admitting.html

    He doesn’t exactly have an eye for detail as he misspells several of the NFL players names, he claims to have met.

  86. avatar
    gorefan June 20, 2012 at 12:50 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Since Obama was in college in 1980 it would seem unlikely he would be jetting around but it is possible.

    We know that Obama was in Hawaii on July 29, 1980. He registered for the draft.

  87. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 20, 2012 at 12:54 pm #

    gorefan: We know that Obama was in Hawaii on July 29, 1980. He registered for the draft.

    That’s right! Thanks.

  88. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 20, 2012 at 12:58 pm #

    gorefan: He doesn’t exactly have an eye for detail as he misspells several of the NFL players names, he claims to have met.

    He also misspelled Obama’s first name.

  89. avatar
    Scientist June 20, 2012 at 1:01 pm #

    gorefan: Here is the guys original story.
    http://noiri.blogspot.com/2009/11/first-hand-witness-to-obama-admitting.html
    He doesn’t exactly have an eye for detail as he misspells several of the NFL players names, he claims to have met.

    He makes a big deal of the fact that this “Obama” had never been to the mainland US. But the actual Obama started at Occidental in the fall of 1979 so he would have spent a full year in LA by August 1980.

  90. avatar
    Majority Will June 20, 2012 at 1:04 pm #

    JPotter: And then, there are the spinners, the belief über alles types. The dream peddlers.

    I recall first encountering birtherism, approaching Vogt’s report like I would anything else, and quickly realizing I’d entered a funhouse hall of mirrors.

    Dealing with this silliness efficiently requires flipping the script: assume information from birthers is crap, backwards, a lie, intentionally misleading. Birthers complain about being received this way … but hey, they’re making their own reality. In terms of their reception, it’s the only part of their made reality that comes true!

    Ain’t that txe truth! 😉

  91. avatar
    donna June 20, 2012 at 1:10 pm #

    doc et al thanks for the great radio show last night and thanks doc for the synopsis –

    one thing from last night ….. the “smoke machine”

    where there’s smoke there’s NOT ALWAYS fire, maybe it’s just a “smoke machine”

    one kudo for jerry – he did not spew the usual birther venom which was refreshing –

    and we now have birther kreep as a judge? hopefully he will get his wish and be assigned to family court where “wise” birthers never venture – GOD help pro-choice litigants –

    on second thought, maybe he will get an in vitro or “personhood” case and have to decide on what klayman asserted ….. that life begins at birth for the person with one deceased parent and before conception and before even having sex (as in arizona)

    “In Arizona, women are now legally pregnant two weeks before conception, according to a new law, the Orwellianly-named, “Women’s Health and Safety Act,” signed yesterday by Republican Governor Jan Brewer.” it “defines gestational age as beginning on the first day of a woman’s last period, has in practice banned abortions after about 18 weeks post-fertilization (20 weeks from the last menstruation) except in the case of medical emergencies”

    as the WORM TURNS……

  92. avatar
    Rob A June 20, 2012 at 1:12 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I personally contacted the Honolulu City Clerk’s office (the elections division is under the City Clerk in Honolulu) where Tim Adams worked: no one in that office has access to birth records, only the Department of Health has that.

    David Weigel of the Washington Post also contacted Tim Adams’ supervisor:

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/right-now/2010/06/there_are_some_people_who.html

  93. avatar
    Jim June 20, 2012 at 1:15 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Anonymous people always know more than real people.

    That’s why the main-stream press use them all the time…”a well-placed source says” 😀

    Of course, in a court of law they’re pretty useless.

  94. avatar
    y_p_w June 20, 2012 at 1:15 pm #

    Scientist: The only relevance of the date of birth would be if there was a question as to whether Obama was 35 when he took office.For that to have been the case , he would have had to have been born after January 1973.Since he was in high school in Hawaii in the 1970s and in college in 1980, that would seem impossible.Unless he was really, really brilliant, in which case, shouldn’t that mean that we should all want him as President?Anyway, to be ineligible now he would have to have been born after 1977, which would have had him in college at 3….

    With Bennett’s verification, the date of filing was verified. It would be logical to conclude that the DOB was before this date of filing. The verification also included a point that an attached “long form” was verified as accurate, and I’m sure that it was a copy of the LFBC complete with DOB.

  95. avatar
    gorefan June 20, 2012 at 1:16 pm #

    Scientist: He makes a big deal of the fact that this “Obama” had never been to the mainland

    He also doesn’t remember the store or type of store or location. The rest of his story is filled with details, but with the guy he says is Obama, things get fuzzy.

    By the way it has been shown (and he now admits) that he could not have met G. Gordon Liddy’s son.

  96. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 1:18 pm #

    So Arizona Secretary of State Bennett is in on the cover up? Maybe you could save time by just listing the people who are NOT part of the cover up.

    ROFL.

    john: It is extremely troubling and suspicious that SOS Bennett did not ask for this to be verified.

  97. avatar
    Northland10 June 20, 2012 at 1:20 pm #

    Today, however, he actually responded to and quoted comments. I did not see that coming. It looks like Doc’s open letter may have had an effect, though not the one anticipated.

    Arthur:
    In my experience, john never answers questions and rarely responds to comments. He broadcasts but doesn’t receive.

  98. avatar
    john June 20, 2012 at 1:43 pm #

    “So Arizona Secretary of State Bennett is in on the cover up? Maybe you could save time by just listing the people who are NOT part of the cover up.”

    No, I would say that Bennett was being manipulated into giving a verification that Hawaii wanted to verify. It is my understanding, that Bennett had asked for the DATE OF BIRTH to be verified but was required to remove it from the verification. Butterdezillion explains in detail on why Hawaii was being so manupulative. As for the verification of the long form, again like the MS verification it is really too vague to be of any value. In any event why verify the long form at all if Bennett was asking for verification of specific elements in the vital record. Or why ask for verification of specific elements when Bennett could have just asked for long form to be verified. The verification is extremely fishy and Arpaio’s team is investigating it with great veracity.

  99. avatar
    john June 20, 2012 at 1:46 pm #

    There is a reason why SOS Bennett didn’t ask or get the DATE OF BIRTH verification. That reason goes to the very heart of the matter.

  100. avatar
    BillTheCat June 20, 2012 at 1:48 pm #

    john: Jerry,I’m a birther and I listen the RC Radio too. He is some compelling information that lead me to believe that Obama was born in Kenya. It’s a YouTube Video that compiles most of the evidence to together. In most cases, the evidence that supports a Kenyan birth Coorborate one another. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1grt5uehak&list=UUAbWSSlfgdK8_RMSv2jKMnQ&index=7&feature=plcpObama literary agent claims Obama was Kenyan-born ~ Now DOZENS more articles confirm the same!

    Just go away. Seriously. All you deal with is junk information.

    Doc, I don’t see why you just don’t ban him. He spews cut and paste nonsense and does not respond to others. It’s a one-way conversation with a brick wall. I see no upside to allowing him to continue his drive-bys.

    That said, Goergetown tore collette a new one on the show last night. His case is dead.

  101. avatar
    Thrifty June 20, 2012 at 2:15 pm #

    John is kind of annoying, and kinda stupid too, but he’s not nearly as insulting or combative as the Birthers that usually get banned. He’s more of a village idiot or loveable town drunk than a rabble-rouser, so I guess that’s why he gets to stay.

    BillTheCat: Just go away. Seriously. All you deal with is junk information.

    Doc, I don’t see why you just don’t ban him. He spews cut and paste nonsense and does not respond to others. It’s a one-way conversation with a brick wall. I see no upside to allowing him to continue his drive-bys.

    That said, Goergetown tore collette a new one on the show last night. His case is dead.

  102. avatar
    donna June 20, 2012 at 2:23 pm #

    BillTheCat: “That said, Goergetown tore collette a new one on the show last night. His case is dead.”

    she was AMAZING!!!!!!

  103. avatar
    Joey June 20, 2012 at 2:41 pm #

    I think that the eyewitness report from Stig Waidelich’s mother should be added to Doc C’s list of corroboration of Barack Obama’s birth in Hawai’i.
    In case anyone has forgotten the story:
    “Swede provides ‘proof’ in Obama birth debate”
    Published: 29 Apr 11

    A Swedish woman, Monica Danielsson, 78, may have provided the last piece in a the puzzle on where US president Barack Obama was born, when CNN recently went to Hawaii to finally lay the matter to rest.

    “Obama was lying there next to my Stig in the bassinet and I remember him because he was the only black child there and I thought he was very cute,” she said to Swedish daily “Expressen.”

    CNN recently sent reporter Gary Tuchman from the show `Anderson Cooper 360′ to Hawaii to find evidence that president Obama was born there.

    While there, he quickly discovered an announcement in the birth columns of the local paper of a Stig Waidelich who was born in the same hospital the day after Obama.

    “They then tried to track me down to compare my son’s birth certificate to the one provided by Obama,” Danielsson said.

    According to CNN the whole matter is complicated because the governor of Hawaii is not legally able to release the original certificate.

    But now ‘the CNN investigation showed that the `certification of live birth’ released by President Obama in 2008 is the same certificate that is issued to every Hawaiian’, according to a statement from CNN.

    Through Monica Danielsson, CNN obtained a certificate for her son Stig, to compare to president Obama’s.

    According to CNN, the document given to Stig from the Department of Health is the same exact document that President Obama has released.

    “Stig, who no longer has his original birth certificate, can use this document for any court proceedings and any legal purposes”, CNN said in a statement.

    Monica, who was borh in Traneberg in Stockholm, moved to Hawaii 50 years ago.
    Her memories of an African-American baby at the maternity ward further corroborate the story.

    “I have no absolute proof of course, but I saw Obama and I have always thought it was Obama,” she told Expressen.

    When President Obama became a candidate in 2008, Monika noticed his birth date and hospital in an article and remembered that day in the nursery. Since then more memories of Obama growing up has come back to Danielsson.

    “The memories come rushing back to me. Obama was very into sport and my son was good at tennis, although Obama was more into basketball,” she said.
    http://www.thelocal.se/33472/20110429/

  104. avatar
    Majority Will June 20, 2012 at 2:45 pm #

    Thrifty:
    John is kind of annoying, and kinda stupid too, but he’s not nearly as insulting or combative as the Birthers that usually get banned.He’s more of a village idiot or loveable town drunk than a rabble-rouser, so I guess that’s why he gets to stay.

    If Otis Campbell had been a birther bigot.

  105. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 3:23 pm #

    I think we can put aside the possibility that Fred Obama, born of a 18-year-old US Mother and a British father in Kenya, was a US citizen at birth. I apologize to anyone misled by my previous ambiguity on this point.

    http://www.volokh.com/posts/1227910730.shtml

    Scientist: There are several substantive arguments that could be raised that he would eligible wherever he might have been born.

  106. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 3:25 pm #

    Collette no doubt would reply “I’m not dead yet!”

    donna: BillTheCat: “That said, Goergetown tore collette a new one on the show last night. His case is dead.”

  107. avatar
    Stanislaw June 20, 2012 at 3:33 pm #

    BillTheCat: Just go away. Seriously. All you deal with is junk information.

    Doc, I don’t see why you just don’t ban him. He spews cut and paste nonsense and does not respond to others. It’s a one-way conversation with a brick wall. I see no upside to allowing him to continue his drive-bys.

    I’m inclined to agree. I’m not one to silence the opposition completely but in the past couple of years that I’ve been reading this blog, “john” has contributed absolutely nothing of any value to the discussions here. He sticks to his talking points and when confronted with difficult facts (which for a birther would be…well, all facts) he just goes on, oblivious to reality. Even some of the other birthers that have decided to post here have had something worthwhile to say.

    Okay, worthwhile is definitely a stretch but I think you get the drift.

  108. avatar
    Scientist June 20, 2012 at 3:35 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I think we can put aside the possibility that Fred Obama, born of a 18-year-old US Mother and a British father in Kenya, was a US citizen at birth. I apologize to anyone misled by my previous ambiguity on this point.

    However, Barack Obama, whose father was already married when he married Stanley Ann Dunham might have been a citizen at birth or a 2008 election might be decided under the laws of 2008. Prof Volokh is a smart guy and is entitled to his blog opinion (as are you), but he is not a judge ruling on the matter (nor are you), so it is just an opinion. Of course no judge will ever rule on the matter because Barack Obama was born in Hawaii (I don’t know where Fred Obama was born).

  109. avatar
    Stanislaw June 20, 2012 at 3:35 pm #

    donna:
    BillTheCat: “That said, Goergetown tore collette a new one on the show last night. His case is dead.”

    she was AMAZING!!!!!!

    Apparently I’m going to have to listen to that soon. I love it when birthers get destroyed, be it in print or verbally.

  110. avatar
    donna June 20, 2012 at 3:44 pm #

    Stanislaw:

    YES, DO listen

    her “cross examination” of jerry regarding a cognizable claim, negligence per se, negligence, etc was PRICELESS

    perhaps obama SHOULD SUE for damages and georgetown and/or others would get to cross examine the birthers about their BOGUS assertions

  111. avatar
    JPotter June 20, 2012 at 3:55 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Collette no doubt would reply “I’m not dead yet!”

    But, despite protestations, he sure isn’t getting any better.

  112. avatar
    G June 20, 2012 at 4:27 pm #

    Yep. That’s how I see him too. The village idiot. Birthers like John and Sven fit that role here well…

    Thrifty: John is kind of annoying, and kinda stupid too, but he’s not nearly as insulting or combative as the Birthers that usually get banned. He’s more of a village idiot or loveable town drunk than a rabble-rouser, so I guess that’s why he gets to stay.

  113. avatar
    Reality Check June 20, 2012 at 4:32 pm #

    You are correct Scientist. Folks should check out the ruling in Bradley v School Board of Richmond (1974) where the court ruled that the law in force at the time of the decision should be used except in cases when the application such a law would “impose new and unanticipated obligations on a party without notice or opportunity to be heard.”.

    Scientist: However, Barack Obama, whose father was already married when he married Stanley Ann Dunham might have been a citizen at birth or a 2008 election might be decided under the laws of 2008.Prof Volokh is a smart guy and is entitled to his blog opinion (as are you), but he is not a judge ruling on the matter (nor are you), so it is just an opinion.Of course no judge will ever rule on the matter because Barack Obama was born in Hawaii (I don’t know where Fred Obama was born).

  114. avatar
    TheEuropean June 20, 2012 at 5:55 pm #

    If I didn’t know that there is no Devil I would be sure that the Devil calls himself John and tries to seduce poor Jerry. Has anybody looked at John’s feet ? Does a tail come out of his trousers ?

  115. avatar
    jayHG June 20, 2012 at 6:48 pm #

    Wilson: I don’t understand how Birthers think that Tim Adams’ affidavit has any merit. Anyone can say I was told something from an Un-Named Source.For example “I swear under Oath that I was told the Tooth Fairy leaves silver dollars under my pillow for a tooth.”My declaration is truthful because I was told that but the content is “A Fairy Tale.”Also I find it hard to argue against the Birther Lies because they travel like wildfire. And as more Birther sites pickup the lie they expand on it. Just like the “Obama’s Attorney Admits Birth Certificate is a Forgery” LIE.Even with the video right there on the internet they all believe it is true even when they can’t point to the minute mark where she was supposed to have said it. When you argue that if she said it they would have cropped the very point where it was said and that would have been pasted everywhere. But they still believe and refuse to accept it is a LIE.

    …and when it’s shown to actually be a lie, birthers (and John) get really mad……..at President Obama!

  116. avatar
    traderjack June 20, 2012 at 6:53 pm #

    And, somewhere in the world, people are discussing whether it is possible for people to actually believe in the impossible, improbable , and such other oddities/

    No one will change their minds, supporters will always support, deniers will always deny, and each side will call the other side nuts.

    Neither side will admit error, neither side will do other than claim their evidence is correct!

    1.Barack Obama released his official Hawaiian birth certificate on June 12, 2008

    No, I do believe it was a Ceritification of Live Birth , and not a Certificate of Live Birth!

    2.Obama’s parents lived in Hawaii (a short trip to Kapi’olani Hospital) and most of the time children are born where their parents live

    No, they lived in the State of Hawaii, on the Island of Oahu, and their seems to be no evidence that they lived together after their supposed marriage!

    5.Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Republican, Director of the Hawaii Department of Health personally inspected Obama’s original birth certificate in the files in Hawaii and said it was there and Obama was born in Hawaii. Her statement is on the State web site, and she was interviewed on CNN confirming.

    And this is where you obtained the birth place as Hawaii. But, that does not indicate that Obama was born on the Island of Oahu, or gives a specific place of birth!

    9.The Long Form birth certificate original certified copy was presented to the Press at the White House news conference, and one correspondent, Savannah Guthrie, snapped a photo of it and stated that she “felt the raised seal.” It is irresponsible to say that the long form hasn’t been released.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgqlaco9OHY&feature=youtu.be

    Says there were two different at that time

    15.Hawaiian Law in 1961 did not allow issuance of a birth certificate except for persons born in Hawaii

    But they did allow the creation of false BCs at the request of government agencies, and , at that time, they allowed statements of births , without verification as the children were born outside of birthing centers on the Islands.

    Howeve, he may have been born in Honolulu, or he may have been born in Nanakuli, or Wailuki, or some where on the Island, as the director of Health has on said born in Hawaii.

    But, it is interesting how one side or the other always assumes their position is correct.

  117. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 6:54 pm #

    What evidence do have for this imaginative story? None. Your beliefs aren’t evidence and in this have no more validity than monkeys typing randomly on a typewriter.

    john: It is my understanding, that Bennett had asked for the DATE OF BIRTH to be verified but was required to remove it from the verification.

  118. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 20, 2012 at 7:01 pm #

    traderjack:
    And, somewhere in the world, people are discussing whether it is possible for people to actually believe in the impossible, improbable , and such other oddities/

    No one will change their minds, supporters will always support, deniers will always deny, and each side will call the other side nuts.

    Neither side will admit error, neither side willdo other than claim their evidence is correct!

    But, it is interesting how one side or the other always assumes their position is correct.

    Except that in this particular case, on this particular issue, the side that believes all the reasonably credible evidence is correct, and the side that believes hearsay and nonsense, and irrationally doubts the sound evidence, is, in fact, nuts.

    That would be you.

  119. avatar
    bob j June 20, 2012 at 7:20 pm #

    traderjack: No, I do believe it was a Ceritification of Live Birth , and not a Certificate of Live Birth!

    traderjack: you are correct, but the Certificate of Live Birth was released on April 27th 2011, despite the fact that it is not released by the State of Hawaii, normally.

    From Wikipedia:

    “It is a “Certification of Live Birth”, sometimes referred to as a short form birth certificate, and contains less information than the longer “Certificate of Live Birth”, which Hawaii no longer issues”

    and it is Certification; not Ceritification.

  120. avatar
    JPotter June 20, 2012 at 7:26 pm #

    Trolljack, so shallow and so obvious, it’s almost like you typed all that to say nothing at all!

    traderjack: Says there were two different at that time

    What were the differences?

  121. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 7:37 pm #

    There is no difference. Today if someone in Hawaii orders a birth certificate they get one just like the 2007 Obama certificate, except it says “Certificate of Live Birth” on it. Certificate/Certification. Same thing. They are both birth certificates.

    traderjack: No, I do believe it was a Ceritification of Live Birth , and not a Certificate of Live Birth!

  122. avatar
    BillTheCat June 20, 2012 at 7:43 pm #

    I love how birthers like trader don’t think they are just a bit mentally unstable when they post cut and paste 20 paragraph word-walls.

    Because as we all know, regurgitating birther-barfed-up screeds always makes you look intelligent.

  123. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 20, 2012 at 7:43 pm #

    john: No, I would say that Bennett was being manipulated into giving a verification that Hawaii wanted to verify. It is my understanding, that Bennett had asked for the DATE OF BIRTH to be verified but was required to remove it from the verification

    “Manipulated” by whom, John? Who do you “understand” “required” him to remove the DATE OF BIRTH?

  124. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 20, 2012 at 7:44 pm #

    No, they did not. You just made that up, which makes you well and truly a liar. The law enforcement provision was not written until 1973. The last part is inanely irrelevant, since the birth certificate clearly names the hospital.

    Go away. You add nothing to the discussion.

    traderjack: But they did allow the creation of false BCs at the request of government agencies, and , at that time, they allowed statements of births , without verification as the children were born outside of birthing centers on the Islands.

  125. avatar
    tes June 20, 2012 at 8:03 pm #

    I was otherwise engaged during the live show last night but had a chance to listen today. Just a few comments.

    First, Collette claimed during the show that under Florida law, negligence per se applies where – the specific example he used was when a person runs a red light and then crashes into someone causing injury. Per Collette, running the red light – a violation of law – creates negligence per se.

    As with nearly every aspect of law upon which he relies, Collette is flat out wrong. Under Florida law, as clearly stated in the Florida Standard Civil Jury Instructions – which, by the way, are promulgated by the Florida Supreme Court, violation of a traffic statute does *not* constitute negligence per se.

    Under Florida law, “it is ‘negligence per se’ to violate a penal statute or ordinance, not regulating traffic, which was enacted to protect a particular class of persons from a particular injury or type of injury.”

    In other words – Collette’s example is expressly EXCLUDED from the rule. See http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/civ_jury_instructions/2010/400/401(8).rtf . Not only is the example Collette provided expressly excluded, but — more importantly – the claim set forth in his FAC is excluded.

    Collette’s FAC alleges “negligence per se” based on alleged violation of the Constitution.
    However, the Constitution is not a “penal statute”; nor was it enacted to protected a “particular class of persons form a particular injury or type of injury.”

    To Doc C’s comment that courts generally don’t go after pro se litigants – I’ll just not that this is not always the case – especially in situations where the litigant has some legal experience. Sanctions would be well-founded in connection with this claim – even when brought by a pro se litigant.

    To be sure – were the plaintiff some uneducated non-Mensa member who had never been to court before, the courts can be more lenient. However, Collette – a self-professed member of Mensa and a paralegal with lots of litigation experience – has no such excuse. He’s brilliant, and experienced.

    Defendants would be well within their rights to ask for sanctions in light of such a frivolous claim. The court also would be well within its discretion in imposing sanctions sua sponte.

  126. avatar
    bgansel9 June 20, 2012 at 8:07 pm #

    TheEuropean:
    If I didn’t know that there is no Devil I would be sure that the Devil calls himself John and tries to seduce poor Jerry. Has anybody looked at John’s feet ? Does a tail come out of his trousers ?

    Feet? You mean cloven hooves? 😛

  127. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 20, 2012 at 8:14 pm #

    traderjack: And this is where you obtained the birth place as Hawaii. But, that does not indicate that Obama was born on the Island of Oahu, or gives a specific place of birth!

    What are you talking about?

    The Certification of Live Birth (short form) says he was born in the city and county of Honolulu on the island of Oahu.

    The Certificate of Live Birth (long form) says he was born city of Honolulu on the island of Oahu.

  128. avatar
    Stanislaw June 20, 2012 at 8:22 pm #

    CarlOrcas: What are you talking about?

    Although Doc’s letter was addressed to Jerry Collette, traderjack may want to take a nice long look at that letter as well. Either he’s lying, ignorant, or both.

  129. avatar
    Keith June 20, 2012 at 8:27 pm #

    john: I think is pretty reasonable to assume Mike Evans was asked to change his story.

    I think it is pretty reasonable to think that Evans MAY have been asked by Ambercrombie to clarify and correct the impression he was giving about what ever conversation they had or did not have.

    I think it is just as reasonable that when he realized the consequences of his actions in stretching the truth after some of the questions he was getting and the reactions from the blog-o-sphere that he chose to correct the record on his own.

    You may characterize that as pressure if you wish, but it is pretty much a normal thing to want the truth in these matters, wouldn’t you agree?

  130. avatar
    Keith June 20, 2012 at 8:40 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Collette no doubt would reply “I’m not dead yet!”

    That’s John Carter’s line. Warlord of Barsoom. The Greatest Virginian who Never Lived!

  131. avatar
    tes June 20, 2012 at 8:50 pm #

    9.The Long Form birth certificate original certified copy was presented to the Press at the White House news conference, and one correspondent, Savannah Guthrie, snapped a photo of it and stated that she “felt the raised seal.” It is irresponsible to say that the long form hasn’t been released.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgqlaco9OHY&feature=youtu.be

    Says there were two different at that time

    ——————-
    The HI DOH and the White House say that there were two certified copies of the LFBC. See http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/Birth_Certificate_Request.PDF. Therefore, that two copies were seen, passed around, and/or photographed is 100% consistent with what the HI DOH said it provided.

  132. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 20, 2012 at 8:53 pm #

    Stanislaw: Either he’s lying, ignorant, or both.

    In my experience one begets the other: Stupid people lie and liars are usually stupid.

  133. avatar
    Jim June 20, 2012 at 9:03 pm #

    Thanks Tes!

  134. avatar
    Jamese777 June 20, 2012 at 9:19 pm #

    For Doc. C., you list “Dr.” Loretta Fuddy but she is an MPH (Master’s degree in Public Health). She does not have an MD or a Ph.D.
    She also has degrees in sociology and social work.

  135. avatar
    jtmunkus June 20, 2012 at 9:34 pm #

    Thanks, Doc. You said everything I was feeling.

    Mr. Collette’s lies are all based on WND and birther sources. Nothing else. I wish he’d stay the F out of our courts with his frivolous claims (“I’m damaged but I can’t say how;” “there oughta be a law and there isn’t but I’m suing anyway;” “I’m suing for money, but maybe I’m not”).

    Typical birther grifter, trying to funnel some birtherbucks his way. I agree with Tes; Collette should be sanctioned severely, for his flagrant and knowing abuse of the court.

  136. avatar
    JPotter June 20, 2012 at 9:54 pm #

    Has anyone explored his “right” to not be governed? Is Collette going sovcit? Or just simply nutty?

    All romanticism aside, it takes a government, a social contract, a communal agreement of some kind (even if unspoken / unwritten) to originate and guarantee rights.

    A right to not be governed is a right to not have rights!

  137. avatar
    US Citizen June 20, 2012 at 10:13 pm #

    If more sanctions were levied, perhaps courts wouldn’t have to lay off so many employees.
    I wish they’d get together on this and look at the birthers as income when they’re presenting obvious non-cases.

  138. avatar
    Jerry Collette June 20, 2012 at 10:32 pm #

    Doc,

    It’s been a hectic day. I just got online, just learned about this, and don’t have time to read it before I head to bed. I’ll get to it soon and get back to you. I doubt I’ll be able to address all the posts, though.

    Thanks for the dialogue.

    Best,

    Jerry

  139. avatar
    G June 20, 2012 at 10:49 pm #

    Well said! Excellent and VERY valid points!!!

    JPotter: All romanticism aside, it takes a government, a social contract, a communal agreement of some kind (even if unspoken / unwritten) to originate and guarantee rights.

    A right to not be governed is a right to not have rights!

  140. avatar
    Arthur June 20, 2012 at 10:59 pm #

    Jerry, your ears must be red; people been talkin’ about you all day.

    Jerry Collette: Doc,It’s been a hectic day. I just got online, just learned about this, and don’t have time to read it before I head to bed. I’ll get to it soon and get back to you. I doubt I’ll be able to address all the posts, though.Thanks for the dialogue.Best,Jerry

  141. avatar
    JPotter June 20, 2012 at 11:16 pm #

    US Citizen: If more sanctions were levied, perhaps courts wouldn’t have to lay off so many employees.I wish they’d get together on this and look at the birthers as income when they’re presenting obvious non-cases.

    What we gain too cheaply, we esteem too little.

    That includes the stupid.

  142. avatar
    Keith June 20, 2012 at 11:29 pm #

    JPotter:
    Has anyone explored his “right” to not be governed? Is Collette going sovcit? Or just simply nutty?

    All romanticism aside, it takes a government, a social contract, a communal agreement of some kind (even if unspoken / unwritten) to originate and guarantee rights.

    A right to not be governed is a right to not have rights!

    Now you are treading on the “Natural Law/Natural Rights” folks toes.

  143. avatar
    JPotter June 21, 2012 at 12:01 am #

    Keith: Now you are treading on the “Natural Law/Natural Rights” folks toes.

    Tread, tread …… and? 😛 I’ve read the Enlightenment, ’tis beautiful stuff. However, having laid aside Romanticism in favor of practicality, I observe that in a world of “natural rights”, we’d have no need for insecticide.

  144. avatar
    Benji Franklin June 21, 2012 at 1:47 am #

    Wilson: I don’t understand how Birthers think that Tim Adams’ affidavit has any merit.

    Most of them don’t think it has any merit. Most of them are not that stupid. They’re mortified to be “calling” such a witness. Doing so confirms the fact that they have no legitimate witnesses or legitimate arguments to use against Obama’s eligibility. Having no way to prevail legally, they have become argument-anarchists, intent on turning any attempt to analyze Obama’s eligibility into a gibberish-throwing verbal food-fight.

    Accordingly, If Bin Laden had declared the posted long form a “forgery”, Birthers would pronounce him an expert. If the Birthers’ God made a high-profile descension to Earth and announced that Obama was a Constitutional Natural Born Citizen and Vattel was on such matters, never in the Framers’ loop, World Nut Daily would trot out Adams, Corsi, Arpaio, and Farah (or some other circle of jerks) to angst over their worst fear being realized – clearly somebody had gotten to the creator of the Universe or He had been horn-swoggled by the Obat conspiracy in Hawaii. No Obama-doubting premise is too weak for the Birther Mantra because there is no legitimate eligibility argument against Obama to dilute with such foolishness.

    While people can honestly disagree about interpretations of the Constitution, any real defender of the Constitution, will honor the judiciary’s interpretations as being Constitutionally definitive and, at least, lawful. But Birthers generally hold themselves as most qualified to interpret the Constitution, and see the judiciary’s only non-traitorous role as one of confirming Birther Constitutional premises. In this regard, they violate one of the most important responsibilities of citizenship – arguably the one that guards most against a descent into anarchy. That responsibility is the obligation of all parties to any controversy (and especially those seeking the judgment of the courts) to accept the judgment of the branch of government Constitutionally designated to settle disagreements about Constitutional interpretation, primarily the Judiciary, and less frequently, Congress (internal affairs and powers effecting the President), and eventhe regulatory and administrative powers of the Executive branch.

    Though we rarely speak of it, there are at least two unwritten principles which the Framers and those of us who treasure our republic would agree, transcend the Constitution in any situational assessment of what constitutes the supreme” Law of the Land”.

    The first is that the Constitution must be interpreted in a way that lets the Republic physically survive. We engage that principle when Presidents ask for national security exceptions to other Constitutional guarantees. During indisputable national emergencies which threaten national survival, few patriots would argue for a superior Constitutional priority to be applied that resulted in the total destruction of the nation.

    The second is that in order to make ANY part of the Constitution function the way the Framers and Founders intended, the discourse employed to discuss and debate the issues must adhere to previously established standards of coherency, logic, and the unequivocal use of technical, everyday, and legal terminology. This precludes such Birther tactics as misleading and contextually dishonest historical quote-mining, the incessant misapplication of the term “forgery”, Arpaio’s torturing of the formerly meaningful expression, “probable cause”, and the deliberate misrepresentation of almost every aspect of every courtroom, administrative, or regulatory procedure involving a birther case.

    Presumably, all the Framers and Founders predicated the possibility that they could successfully establish our nation, on all involved in the enterprise employing and adhering to an interacting standard of civility and rationality during the framing and going forward. Our glorious Revolutionaries would undoubtedly have found typical Birther tactics ignominiously revolting.

  145. avatar
    Reality Check June 21, 2012 at 9:18 am #

    Actually, I don’t think the Wikipedia article is correct. There is no difference between “Certificate” and “Certification”. As a matter of fact Hawaii changed the COLB form in 2008 to read “Certificate of Live Birth”. No explanation was given that I have seen but many of us speculated it was because the Birthers made such a big deal about “Certification”.

    bob j: traderjack: you are correct, but the Certificate of Live Birth was released on April 27th 2011, despite the fact that it is not released by the State of Hawaii, normally.

    From Wikipedia:

    “It is a “Certification of Live Birth”, sometimes referred to as a short form birth certificate, and contains less information than the longer “Certificate of Live Birth”, which Hawaii no longer issues”

    and it is Certification; not Ceritification.

  146. avatar
    Sally Hill June 21, 2012 at 10:42 am #

    G: Well said Doc C! Your entire letter here is SPOT on and really addresses the issues and concerns well.

    I found the letter to be quite arrogant in nature.

    Dr. Conspiracy: What you believe, unless you have facts to back it up, is irrelevant.

    Not really – but if it makes you feel better to think that, then go for it. What really matters when I enter the voting booth is ONLY what I believe.

    Poor John….you need to understand this blog is about ‘group think’, nothing more. There is no real discussion with open minds. They have their minds made up, they believe Obama hook, line and sinker.

    To be honest, I have no clue what to believe anymore, other than something isn’t quite right with his story. My gut says he was born in Hawaii. It seems most plausible that his bio mother was Ann, but I’m not convinced about his bio father. It probably was Obama Sr., but there really is no way to know that for a fact. I believe this is where the story gets muddied and when you add that with where he ‘says’ he spent his childhood, his life experiences, and all the other unexplained inconsistencies, I have to finally come to the conclusion that he wants to keep the waters muddied. Obama very well knows that he has the ‘group think tank’ people in his corner, no matter what. What you need to understand is that no amount of typing here will get you anywhere, other than perhaps a better understanding of those that protect the President’s questionable stories.

    They berate, belittle, and name call people until they run them off. When some new news hits, I visit just to see what the ‘group think’ take is. Yeah, I guess I’m just using them, but they seem to be fine with it. Currently, they are using you for a punching bag, and you seem to be fine with it. My advice is to move on sooner rather than later.

  147. avatar
    Lupin June 21, 2012 at 11:20 am #

    Sally Hill: To be honest, I have no clue what to believe anymore, other than something isn’t quite right with his story. My gut says he was born in Hawaii. It seems most plausible that his bio mother was Ann, but I’m not convinced about his bio father. It probably was Obama Sr., but there really is no way to know that for a fact. I believe this is where the story gets muddied and when you add that with where he ‘says’ he spent his childhood, his life experiences, and all the other unexplained inconsistencies, I have to finally come to the conclusion that he wants to keep the waters muddied. Obama very well knows that he has the ‘group think tank’ people in his corner, no matter what. What you need to understand is that no amount of typing here will get you anywhere, other than perhaps a better understanding of those that protect the President’s questionable stories.

    Speaking as a 58-year-old Frenchman, who is really not party to your fight, everything I’ve read or seen about Obama seems perfectly and reasonably clear without any shadows or inconsistencies.

    In fact, for a political figure of that stature, he seems remarkably free of scandals.

    On the other hand, his opponents seem either delusional or make up all kind of crazy lies about him. It’s not a he said-she said thing either: the lies and delusions are totally transparent.

    And I’m saying this as someone who does not approve of many of your president’s policies (this is not the place to go into this).

    Near where I live there is a mountain called Bugarach (google it up) and many delusional people who believe the world is going to end later this year flock to it because for reasons i don’t fully understand, they think it’s a holy place where they’ll be safe (or saved).

    The world is full of people who believe crazy stuff. You should reflect on this.

  148. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 21, 2012 at 11:32 am #

    Sally Hill: To be honest, I have no clue what to believe anymore, other than something isn’t quite right with his story

    Listen up, and listen good:

    You are adopting the generally reliable common-sense idea of “Where there’s Smoke, there’s Fire.” But that is not always true. Sometimes where there’s Smoke, there’s a Smoke Machine.

    How hard is it to understand that our President’s political enemies have spent millions of dollars and thousands of hours generating clouds of Smoke you could see from the moon, so people like you will think there’s Fire? You sound like a nice person, but you have fallen for their baloney.

    This isn’t group-think. This is people who have examined all the evidence, ad nauseam, and see no hint that any of the Smoke is due to a Fire. None. It is, provably, demonstrably, bull guano. All of it.

  149. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 21, 2012 at 11:39 am #

    Sally Hill: I found the letter to be quite arrogant in nature.Not really – but if it makes you feel better to think that, then go for it. What really matters when I enter the voting booth is ONLY what I believe.Poor John….you need to understand this blog is about ‘group think’, nothing more. There is no real discussion with open minds. They have their minds made up, they believe Obama hook, line and sinker. To be honest, I have no clue what to believe anymore, other than something isn’t quite right with his story. My gut says he was born in Hawaii. It seems most plausible that his bio mother was Ann, but I’m not convinced about his bio father. It probably was Obama Sr., but there really is no way to know that for a fact. I believe this is where the story gets muddied and when you add that with where he ‘says’ he spent his childhood, his life experiences, and all the other unexplained inconsistencies, I have to finally come to the conclusion that he wants to keep the waters muddied. Obama very well knows that he has the ‘group think tank’ people in his corner, no matter what. What you need to understand is that no amount of typing here will get you anywhere, other than perhaps a better understanding of those that protect the President’s questionable stories. They berate, belittle, and name call people until they run them off. When some new news hits, I visit just to see what the ‘group think’ take is. Yeah, I guess I’m just using them, but they seem to be fine with it. Currently, they are using you for a punching bag, and you seem to be fine with it. My advice is to move on sooner rather than later.

    As usual fake Scott Brown your beliefs say a lot more about your lack of character than ours. You have no reason to doubt his father was really his father and yet you seem to cling to anything negative about the President. It’s rather funny how you question this president and only this president’s story which you know more about than say 20 years of the last president’s life.

  150. avatar
    Scientist June 21, 2012 at 11:56 am #

    Sally Hill: What really matters when I enter the voting booth is ONLY what I believe.

    You are absolutely 100% entitled to vote for whomever you wish for what ever foolish reason you choose. So is Mr Collette. Where I part company with him and with you if you support him is that he is trying to impose his views on everybody else. And that my dear makes him the arrogant one. Doc has never, so far as I know, attempted to stop anyone from being able to vote for the candidate of their choice.

  151. avatar
    Majority Will June 21, 2012 at 11:58 am #

    Sally Hill: What you need to understand is that no amount of typing here will get you anywhere, other than perhaps a better understanding of those that protect the President’s questionable stories.

    Scott:

    Do you mean like the many, many lies including lies about yourself you were caught spouting here?

    Are you this desperate for attention and sympathy?

    That was a rhetorical question.

    As for your your brilliant assertion, “What really matters when I enter the voting booth is ONLY what I believe,” here’s the best takeaway for that:

    “The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.”
    – John F. Kennedy

    And if you don’t want to be ridiculed, consider why so many people have found your shallow drivel to be utterly clueless and ridiculous.

  152. avatar
    y_p_w June 21, 2012 at 1:06 pm #

    Reality Check:
    Actually, I don’t think the Wikipedia article is correct. There is no difference between “Certificate” and “Certification”. As a matter of fact Hawaii changed the COLB form in 2008 to read “Certificate of Live Birth”. No explanation was given that I have seen but many of us speculated it was because the Birthers made such a big deal about “Certification”.

    It’s nothing more than a style issue, no matter what Donald Trump says. Speaking of The Donald, were he to obtain another copy of his abstract, it would read “Certification of Birth”. The standard form for NY state (which doesn’t issue NYC birth certificates) would read “Certified Transcript of Birth”. They’re both birth certificates, and the title isn’t really that important except for conspiracy theorists.

  153. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 21, 2012 at 1:36 pm #

    To Sally, or Scott, or whoever you are:

    I take it back. You are not a nice person. You are what’s wrong with America.

  154. avatar
    JoZeppy June 21, 2012 at 2:10 pm #

    Sally Hill: Not really – but if it makes you feel better to think that, then go for it. What really matters when I enter the voting booth is ONLY what I believe.

    It’s what you believe is probably pretty irrelevant, because I’m guessing there is probably nothing in the world that would convince you to vote for the President.

    Sally Hill: Poor John….you need to understand this blog is about ‘group think’, nothing more. There is no real discussion with open minds. They have their minds made up, they believe Obama hook, line and sinker.

    It’s not that we believe President Obama. It’s just that all the actual evidence, and logical review of the evidence, supports his nativity story. One side has actual admissible documents (and documents that have been admitted to court), the law, and a plausible story. The other side is base on baseless accusations, junk law, and an impossible nativity scenario. If birther, perhaps could actually bring forth actual evidence, I would consider it. Until then, there is nothing to actually discuss.

    Sally Hill: To be honest, I have no clue what to believe anymore, other than something isn’t quite right with his story.

    That’s because you, unlike us, has no interest in the truth. Perhaps you should just look at the actual facts?

    Sally Hill: My gut says he was born in Hawaii.

    Well, the State of Hawaii say so too. So under the law, the State of Hawaii word matters. And the kicker is, you can take the State’s word to court, and even though I may agree with your gut, I really don’t care one way or another, because your gut isn’t an actual source of factual evidence. You see that’s the difference between some of us. We look towards facts, not just something that agrees with our decided point of view, and are willing to pay no mind to something, even it it agrees with us.

    Sally Hill: It seems most plausible that his bio mother was Ann, but I’m not convinced about his bio father. It probably was Obama Sr., but there really is no way to know that for a fact.

    And why exactly would be believe anything else? Fact of the matter is you have no reason to doubt who his parents were. All you have are smear merchants making up utter B.S. with nothing to support their accusations. As Doc said earlier, this is more a reflection of your lack of character than anyone elses. You’re willing to buy into smears by people who have no evidence, and no actual plausible basis to know these things, whereas I demand that someone have something to back up their statements than, besides, “well, he looks like Malcolm X.” Yeah, I understand. To some people, “they all look the same.”

    Sally Hill: I believe this is where the story gets muddied and when you add that with where he ‘says’ he spent his childhood, his life experiences, and all the other unexplained inconsistencies, I have to finally come to the conclusion that he wants to keep the waters muddied.

    And what you believe isn’t worth two rats, because as you have clearly shown, you have no interest in facts, or reality. Nothing is muddied. We have a very clear indication where he spent his childhood, and to top it off, there is documentary evidence that backs up those statements. There are really no unexplained inconsistencies. His “story” his corroborated with contemporaneous news stories about him and his parents, and both state and federal documents. Considering humans’ natural ability to err, I think it is remarkably consistent….even adding in where he spent his childhood, and his life experiences (why exactly this would muddy the waters, I have no idea…except perhaps a smack of xenophobia).

    Sally Hill: Obama very well knows that he has the ‘group think tank’ people in his corner, no matter what.

    Just as he knows that no amount of evidence will convince birther conspiracy nuts to ever vote for him….do you have a point?

    Sally Hill: What you need to understand is that no amount of typing here will get you anywhere, other than perhaps a better understanding of those that protect the President’s questionable stories.

    You’re right…no amount of typing will get you anywhere. If you want to be taken seriously, perhaps you should actually dredge up some actual evidence. You know, something that would even stand up in a court of law. Otherwise, you’re just wasting all our time with your not only questionable, but laughably ridiculous stories.

    Sally Hill: They berate, belittle, and name call people until they run them off.

    Only those that type things worthy of berating, belittling, and name calling. Perhaps if you could actually bring up some evidence to support you crazy theories, you wouldn’t be treated so harshly.

    Sally Hill: When some new news hits, I visit just to see what the ‘group think’ take is.

    What you call “group think” is known as the reality based community to the rest of us.

    Sally Hill: Yeah, I guess I’m just using them, but they seem to be fine with it.

    That’s because we’re using you too. It gets pretty boring around here without the occasional nutter to respond to.

    Sally Hill: Currently, they are using you for a punching bag, and you seem to be fine with it. My advice is to move on sooner rather than later.

    I’m not convince john is an actual birther rather than some kind of performance artist of some twisted nature. There’s just no way someone with enough brain cells firing to support human life could actually believe some of the things he comes out with.

  155. avatar
    bgansel9 June 21, 2012 at 2:16 pm #

    Sally Hill: Poor John….you need to understand this blog is about ‘group think’, nothing more. There is no real discussion with open minds. They have their minds made up, they believe Obama hook, line and sinker.

    Having an understanding that there is only one set of facts is “groupthink”. Geesh! Apparently keeping an open mind to variable conspiracy theories (ie: “Obama spent his childhood in Indonesia… except… no wait, Corsi says it’s Singapore now? Okay!”) apparently makes you a model of intellectual honesty. LMAO! What will they think of next?

  156. avatar
    bgansel9 June 21, 2012 at 2:20 pm #

    JoZeppy: Considering humans’ natural ability to err, I think it is remarkibly consistent….even adding in where he spent his childhood, and his life experiences (why exactly this would muddy the waters, I have no idea…except perhaps a smack of xenophobia).

    Ding, ding, ding, ding… “We have a WINNER!”

  157. avatar
    Rickey June 21, 2012 at 2:52 pm #

    Sally Hill: .My gut says he was born in Hawaii.It seems most plausible that his bio mother was Ann, but I’m not convinced about his bio father.It probably was Obama Sr., but there really is no way to know that for a fact.I believe this is where the story gets muddied and when you add that with where he ‘says’ he spent his childhood, his life experiences, and all the other unexplained inconsistencies, I have to finally come to the conclusion that he wants to keep the waters muddied.

    What “inconsistencies” are you referring to? Obama’s “story” is that he was born in Hawaii, he then lived in Indonesia for a few years, then he returned to Hawaii to live with his grandparents. He finished elementary school and high school in Honolulu, then he enrolled at Occidental College, then he transferred to Columbia University. All of those elements of his “story” have been documented many times over.

    As for his father, there is no reason for Obama to doubt that he is the son of Barack Obama, since that is what he was told and that is what it says on his birth certificate. However, even if his father was a different man, it doesn’t change anything about his eligibility.

  158. avatar
    Whatever4 June 21, 2012 at 3:28 pm #

    Sally Hill:

    To be honest, I have no clue what to believe anymore, other than something isn’t quite right with his story.My gut says he was born in Hawaii.It seems most plausible that his bio mother was Ann, but I’m not convinced about his bio father.It probably was Obama Sr., but there really is no way to know that for a fact.I believe this is where the story gets muddied and when you add that with where he ‘says’ he spent his childhood, his life experiences, and all the other unexplained inconsistencies, I have to finally come to the conclusion that he wants to keep the waters muddied.Obama very well knows that he has the ‘group think tank’ people in his corner, no matter what.What you need to understand is that no amount of typing here will get you anywhere, other than perhaps a better understanding of those that protect the President’s questionable stories.

    Why on earth would anyone think Obama’s bio father isn’t Obama Senior, other than to insult his mother? She was a teenager who had barely settled in Hawaii after moving there from the Mainland. She ment Obama Senior in a language class at the university they both attended. They had a “shotgun wedding,” after which the father of the child quietly left the picture. What “inconsistancies” are in that story at all? It happened fairly frequently in the days before the pill. The black population of Honolulu in 1960 was pretty small. The odds are pretty good that the story exactly what is reported.

  159. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 21, 2012 at 3:52 pm #

    The purpose of the alternate father stories, besides verbal violence and disrespect, is to make Obama seem a liar and an “unknown.” It’s not working though.

    Whatever4: Why on earth would anyone think Obama’s bio father isn’t Obama Senior, other than to insult his mother?

  160. avatar
    JPotter June 21, 2012 at 3:58 pm #

    Sally Hill: My gut says he was born in Hawaii.

    Congrats, questions of eligibility answered.

    If the rest of his life story is important to you in deciding whether to vote for him, fine, understandable. Form an opinion and vote accordingly.

  161. avatar
    Thrifty June 21, 2012 at 4:49 pm #

    Do you go around scoffing at people who believe the Earth revolves around the Sun, for their silly groupthink and unwillingness to have an open mind to consider other possible celestial configurations?

    Facts are facts. That’s why rational people agree on them. If you go around saying “2 + 2 is not actually 4!” or “Dinosaurs are not extinct!” or “It’s possible to divide by zero, the mathematical-industrial complex is just lying to you!”, you aren’t some brave soul daring to stand up against the prevailing groupthink. You’re a fool disputing known and proven facts.

    Sally Hill: Poor John….you need to understand this blog is about ‘group think’, nothing more. There is no real discussion with open minds. They have their minds made up, they believe Obama hook, line and sinker.

  162. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 21, 2012 at 4:49 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    The purpose of the alternate father stories, besides verbal violence and disrespect, is to make Obama seem a liar and an “unknown.” It’s not working though.

    My favorite “verbal violence and disrespect” meme, though, has got to be the stories about Stanley Ann making pornos. I’m just hoping I never meet anyone who drags that one out in my presence.

    It might, you know, “make my day.”

    Saying vile things about any American President’s dead mother? Seriously?

  163. avatar
    linda June 21, 2012 at 5:25 pm #

    In his letter, Bennett asked for certain additional information to be verified along with the copy of the COLB he attached. The Hawaii DOH did exactly that. They verified the elements he requested and stated “Additionally, I verify that the information in the copy of the Certificate of Live Birth for Mr. Obama that you attached with your request matches the original record in our files.” Obviously, date of birth is on the Certificate of Live Birth.

    http://tinyurl.com/7qb47q5
    http://www.azcentral.com/12news/Obama-Verification.pdf

    In the MS Verification, the Hawaii DOH states the original COLB for Obama is on file and says that the COLB published by the White House, a copy of which the attorneys attached with their request, matches the original on file.
    http://tinyurl.com/crvdkj4

    What exactly do you find vague?

    john: As for the verification of the long form, again like the MS verification it is really too vague to be of any value. In any event why verify the long form at all if Bennett was asking for verification of specific elements in the vital record. Or why ask for verification of specific elements when Bennett could have just asked for long form to be verified. The verification is extremely fishy and Arpaio’s team is investigating it with great veracity.

  164. avatar
    misha June 21, 2012 at 5:31 pm #

    john: Here are links to Tim Adam’s affidavit. Adam’s has taken some retaliation for publically stating about what he knows…those whom he had worked for fear retaliation and refuse to talk or cooporate.

    I have sworn in an affidavit that Glenn Beck raped and murdered a girl in 1990. No one will take action against him because he is a powerful media figure.

  165. avatar
    donna June 21, 2012 at 5:32 pm #

    john: The verification is extremely fishy and Arpaio’s team is investigating it with great veracity.

    investigating WHAT?

    any state and any court would accept those 2 verifications –

    it is more than you and i have as verifications of our births

    it is more than romney produced

    it is more than mccain produced

    i submit that obama has been verified more than the dozens of bin laden family members who live here

  166. avatar
    bgansel9 June 21, 2012 at 5:37 pm #

    donna:
    john: The verification is extremely fishy and Arpaio’s team is investigating it with great veracity.

    investigating WHAT?

    Investigating how to make sure the birthers continue to open up their wallets to Arpaio’s crazy Republican birther pals. It hurts Obama and that is all he cares about on a personal level.

    And, as I stated to John before, Election law and Florida birth records are OUT OF THE JURISDICTION of the MARICOPA COUNTY Sheriff.

  167. avatar
    misha June 21, 2012 at 5:38 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I wonder what the roundtrip airfare from New York (or LA) to Honolulu would have been in 1980?

    I don’t have that figure, but roundtrip from Honolulu to Nairobi would be ~$22K in constant dollars.
    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.html

  168. avatar
    misha June 21, 2012 at 5:42 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: “I’m not dead yet!”

    – “I’m not dead yet!”
    – “Oh, shut up. You will be in a few hours.”

  169. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 5:43 pm #

    Bravo! Well said!

    I loved your Smoke Machine analogy when you delivered it on RC’s Reality Check Radio show with guest Jerry Collete.

    It really is an excellent and apt analogy and it bears constant repeating. KUDOS!

    Thomas Brown: Listen up, and listen good:

    You are adopting the generally reliable common-sense idea of “Where there’s Smoke, there’s Fire.” But that is not always true. Sometimes where there’s Smoke, there’s a Smoke Machine.

    How hard is it to understand that our President’s political enemies have spent millions of dollars and thousands of hours generating clouds of Smoke you could see from the moon, so people like you will think there’s Fire? […] but you have fallen for their baloney.

    This isn’t group-think. This is people who have examined all the evidence, ad nauseam, and see no hint that any of the Smoke is due to a Fire. None. It is, provably, demonstrably, bull guano. All of it.

  170. avatar
    donna June 21, 2012 at 5:53 pm #

    john: Here are links to Tim Adam’s affidavit. Adam’s has taken some retaliation for publically stating about what he knows…those whom he had worked for fear retaliation and refuse to talk or cooporate.

    adams emerged on the scene on june 6, 2010 …… over 2 years ago

    where has he been?

    why hasn’t he been called to testify under oath?

    it’s been 2 years

    doesn’t his absence suggest something to you?

  171. avatar
    Jerry Collette June 21, 2012 at 5:53 pm #

    Dear Doc,

    I just got to read your article. Thank you for your concern.

    As I said on the radio show, Barack Obama could easily mitigate any damages from the birther movement by simply authorizing better access to the original birth records and, as Sheriff Joe pointed out, the microfiche. If I were in the PR department of his reelection campaign, I would certainly recommend that. That he has not done so says to me that he either has something to hide or doesn’t have the competence to make such a simple decision. Either way, maybe he shouldn’t be reelected.

    Best,

    Jerry

    P.S. While I don’t have time, now, to address the comments on this thread, nonetheless, I thank your audience for their interest in this important subject.

  172. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 5:55 pm #

    Strongly agreed!

    “Sally Brown” is one of the most disreputable and craven of the disingenuous concern trolls that tries to pop back up here from time to time, hoping nobody will remember her long history of prior intentional deceitfulness.

    She is of similar mindset to the Corsi’s of the world out there, desperate to manipulate others through lies and smears. The main differences are that she lacks the forum and following that the larger smear peddling propagandists have…and for what passes as “skill” amongst concern-trolling con artists – well, she is pretty weak in that arena too.

    I would go further and argue that the mindset and tactics of folks like her and her ilk are what is wrong with humanity…

    Thomas Brown:
    To Sally, or Scott, or whoever you are:

    I take it back.You are not a nice person.You are what’s wrong with America.

  173. avatar
    Majority Will June 21, 2012 at 6:17 pm #

    “If I were in the PR department of his reelection campaign, I would certainly recommend that.”

    BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ! !

    Well bless his heart.

    Who didn’t expect more asinine birther drivel?

    smh

  174. avatar
    Northland10 June 21, 2012 at 6:21 pm #

    Sally, the Birthers say he is not eligible so don’t let him run. We say that he is eligible, so let the voters decide. Our whole point is not should he be President but is he eligible for President. It is only that and nothing more.

  175. avatar
    donna June 21, 2012 at 6:41 pm #

    a poll was just released by Dartmouth government professor Benjamin Valentino

    64% of Republicans believe that Obama was born in another country.

    63% of Republican respondents STILL BELIEVE that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the United States invaded in 2003, even though this assertion has been thoroughly debunked.

    10% of DEMOCRATS think obama was born in another country.

    Less than 15% of DEMOCRATS believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the United States invaded in 2003

    30% OF INDEPENDENTS think Obama was born in another country.

    27% of INDEPENDENTS believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the United States invaded in 2003

    FASCINATING!!!!

  176. avatar
    linda June 21, 2012 at 6:44 pm #

    I am disappointed in Mr. Collette’s response. Apparently the truth can only be found in a vault in HI.

    His mild demeanor is misleading, but I believe he is no different than Apuzzo and the rest. He claims to be brilliant, on a quest for the truth, but while he has experience in litigation, he failed to do the due diligence. He instead relied on baseless accusations, courtesy of Sheriff Joe and WND, etc.

    I am rooting for sanctions.

  177. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 6:45 pm #

    Hi Jerry,

    You seem to be fixated on this particular assertion as your premise for pursuit.

    As I and many others have repeatedly pointed out, there is no rational basis or evidence to support that he either needs to or should do as you state.

    Most importantly, this is a very irresponsible and disingenuous assertion to use as a premise in the first place.

    (Note: while I don’t think *you* are “intending” to be disingenuous, the argument itself totally *is*, because it is a LAZY argument and not properly thought through to its implications… therefore, for someone with your clear level of intelligence and capacity to think rationally, there quickly becomes a time where you no longer have the excuse to continue to propagate the same lazy argument, after being confronted and being made aware of the larger implications, without addressing them).

    As I and many others have repeatedly pointed out, you are asking this ONE particular candidate to be held to a standard that NO OTHER presidential candidate has ever been held to…

    …More importantly, a standard which has ZERO basis and support in existing laws – in fact, such a premise of irrational levels of endlessly re-confirming disclosure run CONTRARY to ALL the laws and procedures in our society – laws which are intended to not only protect EVERY individuals personal information but even more importantly, define what is the necessary level of authority for legally accepting documented information as official between various entities.

    Quite simply, a certified document from the state (in this particular instance, the HI COLB) *is* the official document of information on the matter and *HAS* to be accepted by LAW on its face as valid by EVERY other official entity.

    End of Story right there. It matters not one whit that YOU or someone else (with no official duty or authority) doesn’t fully “trust” or “accept” the document at face value. It certainly doesn’t matter to the courts. Our system and the courts are NOT a place for mere unsubstantiated and idle speculation at all.

    The ONLY time such a document’s authenticity can officially become “in question” is if you FIRST have SOLID and CREDIBLE tangible evidence UPFRONT that appears to CONTRADICT the official document AND which appears UPFRONT to legitimately hold AT LEAST an equal if not greater weight of authenticity than the official document released. For the sake of future simplicity, let’s call this the BASIC EVIDENTIARY THRESHOLD BURDEN you must satisfy BEFORE you even have ANY valid argument to pursue in the REAL world at all.

    Without that, NADA. ZIP. ZILCH. No REAL case, no REAL argument of substance at all. Neither the courts nor the actual processes of our governance are designed to entertain emotional and hypothetical “fishing expeditions” at all.

    In general, NO ONE (other than the state officials in charge of issuing and protecting birth certificates) has access to the “original birth records” or their microfiche representations. NOR will anyone else, without that BASIC EVIDENTIARY THRESHOLD BURDEN being satisfied FIRST.

    In summary, your premise is based on nothing more than the biased hypocrisy of demanding to hold a particular individual to a burden of proof standard that NO ONE ELSE has EVER been held to and that NO ONE ELSE is currently being held to either.

    As was mentioned on RC’s show, although you personally may not have any racial motive in your pursuit, you still need to be able to “put yourself in the other person’s shoes” and grasp that there *IS* a significant and historical negative racial implication and connotation in such “papers, please” demands – period.

    It matters not that your personal intention on the matter is not driven by such bias, as the unintended consequences of your selective and unequal standards for burden of proof ARE by their very nature, not just hypocritical, but ALSO a type of bias and bigotry. (HINT: bigotry does not just apply to race, religion or sex – it applies to *any* exclusionary prejudicing against others, based on an unequal and unfair application of rights).

    Therefore, the very request and “expectation” that Obama should go out of his way to provide such completely UNPRECEDENTED access to any of his records is both a FOOLISH and FALSE premise to begin with.

    Jerry Collette:

    As I said on the radio show, Barack Obama could easily mitigate any damages from the birther movement by simply authorizing better access to the original birth records and, as Sheriff Joe pointed out, the microfiche.

  178. avatar
    Majority Will June 21, 2012 at 6:59 pm #

    linda:
    I am disappointed in Mr. Collette’s response. Apparently the truth can only be found in a vault in HI.

    His mild demeanor is misleading, but I believe he is no different than Apuzzo and the rest.He claims to be brilliant, on a quest for the truth, but while he has experience in litigation, he failed to do the due diligence.He instead relied on baseless accusations, courtesy of Sheriff Joe and WND, etc.

    I am rooting for sanctions.

    Hear, hear.

  179. avatar
    Scientist June 21, 2012 at 7:02 pm #

    Jerry Collette: If I were in the PR department of his reelection campaign, I would certainly recommend that.

    Collette reminds me of the loudmouths who call sports talk shows and believe they know how to manage the Yankees much better than Joe Girardi does. Axelrod and Plouffe have already managed a successful presidential campaign; they have their candidate ahead, if only modestly, in an economy where he could easily be 5 points behind. As far as I know Collette hasn’t run a successful campaign for dog catcher (and. yes, I know that dog catcher is not actually an elective office).

  180. avatar
    JPotter June 21, 2012 at 7:10 pm #

    Scientist: Collette hasn’t run a successful campaign for dog catcher (and. yes, I know that dog catcher is not actually an elective office).

    It is in Duxbury, VT!

    Run, Jerry, Run!

  181. avatar
    linda June 21, 2012 at 7:11 pm #

    I think those numbers are disheartening. Only 79% of dems believe Obama was born in the US, for independents that numbers drops to 49% and hits a barrel-scraping 22% for the reps.
    http://www.dartmouth.edu/~benv/files/poll%20responses%20by%20party%20ID.pdf

    donna: FASCINATING!!!!

  182. avatar
    Majority Will June 21, 2012 at 7:25 pm #

    linda:
    I think those numbers are disheartening.Only 79% of dems believe Obama was born in the US, for independents that numbers drops to 49% and hits a barrel-scraping 22% for the reps.
    http://www.dartmouth.edu/~benv/files/poll%20responses%20by%20party%20ID.pdf

    How many of those people surveyed know the eligibility requirements for the office of President or know the meaning of natural born citizen?

    Wouldn’t the answers to the where born question take on an entirely different meaning if it was qualified with regards to eligibility?

    These surveys never seem to ask about eligibility.

  183. avatar
    JPotter June 21, 2012 at 7:28 pm #

    Jerry Collette: the microfiche

    What is this fascination with microfiche?!? Why do the silly birthers think fudging a sheet of microfiche is any harder that whipping up “custom” vital records and slipping them into state archives? They’re already obsessing over the specter of shadowy operatives armed with vintage paper forms and typewriters … why not a vintage microforming lab as well?

    Did anyone ever determine that any of Hawaii’s vital records were transferred to microfiche or -film? I see that the Family History Library in Utah has microfilm copies for Hawaii up to certain dates, depending on type of record.

  184. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 21, 2012 at 7:40 pm #

    On the radio show, you observed that after Obama released his long form, the number of birthers dropped sharply. What you didn’t say is that the numbers have climbed back up as high or as little higher before. As long as there are the Corsis, the Farahs, the Taitzs, the Apuzzos, the Kerchners, the Sewells and the Collettes out there day-by-day fanning the issue, stoking that “smoke machine,” it will keep coming back and nothing Obama can do will change that. I list you because you are actively promoting lawsuits against Obama from others with your Do it Yourself Ballot Challenge Kit.

    All the while you are advocating and encouraging others to file lawsuits like you did. I think you are in denial about your responsibility for your own actions, and I find that extremely troubling.

    You can make the claims that a microfilm examination would mitigate your damage to President Obama, but that is just your opinion which, based on evidence to date, is wrong.

    Releasing the short form had no long-term positive effect. Releasing the long form, which is all the birthers wanted, had no long-term positive effect. Obtaining independent verification direct form the Hawaii Department of Health seems to be having no positive effect.

    Let me open your eyes to what’s happening:

    Some people believe Obama is foreign born because he won’t release his microfilm birth records in Hawaii, but people thought he was foreign born before that.

    Some people believe Obama is foreign born because they think his long form birth certificate is a forgery, but people thought he was foreign born before that.

    Some people believe Obama is foreign born because he waited so long to release his long form birth certificate, but people thought he was foreign born before that.

    Some people think that Governor Abercrombie of Hawaii couldn’t find Obama’s birth certificate, but people thought that he was foreign born before that.

    Some people think that Tim Adams somehow knows Obama has no Hawaiian birth certificate, but people thought that he was foreign born before that.

    Some people believe Obama is foreign born because they think his step grandmother said he was born in Kenya, but people thought he was foreign born before that.

    Some people believe Obama is foreign born because they think his short form birth certificate is a fake, but people thought that he was foreign born before that.

    Some people think Obama was foreign born reading between the lines of the official Hawaii press releases, but people thought that he was foreign born before that.

    In fact no matter what reason you give for thinking Obama was foreign born, any reason any birther ever used, people believed Obama was foreign born before that.

    The “born in Kenya” rumor started on a day that we can identify in a post on the Internet that had nothing but the story of Obama born in Kenya without a single reason presented to believe it, but believe it people did. In the 4 years since then, people have been trying to rationalize that belief with various “reasons”, but the belief came first and then the “reasons.” That is why evidence, including my 16 points, makes no difference. It is about belief, not reason. Birthers, you included, have invested so much of their self image and their personal reputation in belief that Obama was foreign born, or in the validity of doubts about it, that they would crush their self image to change — so they don’t and they can’t. Microfilm is just the excuse of the day.

    And if there is any argument to show that birthers are immune to reason, just look in the mirror. You saw my 16 points. If you can’t see a compelling picture, you’re beyond hope. A microfilm examination would just be point 17 of a list that is brushed aside in favor of a bevy of faux experts, anonymous sources, outright lies, and errors.

    So somehow forensic experts verify the Obama birth certificate is on 51-year-old microfilm. What of it? Obama got to the expert — threatened to kill his kid. Dr. Sinclair was bribed to file a false birth report in 1961. The CIA keeps unexposed vintage microfilm in a vault for just such purposes. There’s no mitigation Obama can do. The only thing that will help is for people like you to think instead of being led around by the nose and to take responsibility for your own actions.

    I fear that is not going to happen.

    PS. There are few things in life that disgust me as much as “blame the victim.”

    Jerry Collette: As I said on the radio show, Barack Obama could easily mitigate any damages from the birther movement by simply authorizing better access to the original birth records and, as Sheriff Joe pointed out, the microfiche

  185. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 7:43 pm #

    I really don’t find anything particularly different in this poll than others that have asked similar questions over the past several years. The numbers might change slightly, but in general, the results have been pretty much the same.

    What you need to do is be careful to not draw erroneous conclusions of what such polling means. Something which it seems evident that many of the propagandist hopefulls are drawn to endlessly do…and what the hand-wringing set also overly frets about.

    First of all, I continue to assert that Birtherism is nothing more than ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome) manifesting itself in a poll question. In other words, an indication of someone irrationally and emotionally predisposed to not vote for Obama, regardless of what he does AND who grasps at any negative-reinforcing meme or smear against Obama as their personal justification / rationalization/ “cover excuse” for their ODS.

    So, in a period of history in which the main political parties are so entrenched in polarization and demonization of their opponents, it is of NO surprise at all to see high percentage levels of ODS and polling “pushing” Birtherism excuses in those that self-identify as GOP voters.

    That holds true for the other self-identified classifications and the percentage numbers they showed on the issue as well, as I will explain:

    First, the over-generalized term “INDEPENDENTS” is fairly meaningless as an aggregate. It simply represents a whole collection of people with DIFFERENT reasons for NOT self-identifying with one of the two major parties. It does NOT in any way imply that someone self-identifying as such is MODERATE or even non strongly affiliated with a particular ideology.

    The many disappointments and failures of the GWB administration caused many former GOP self-indentifiers to start calling themselves “Independent”, even though their voting pattern remains just as solidly GOP as it always was. A number of those classified as “Independent” actually belong to third-parties out there (Libertarian, Constitutionalist, etc.). The example third-parties I stated happen to be extremely “conservative” these days… (in other words, the GOP is too “mild” for them. So therefore, it is not surprising at all to see a THIRD of the lump-sum group “Independents” also have a Pavlovian support response to a Birther question. That is about the proportion of extreme ODS sufferers I would expect to fall under that category.

    Finally, a small proportion of any that self-identify as a particular party on a poll are likely to be those whose personal beliefs don’t actually match up to what the current party’s platform actually is (or even ever was)… and therefore, can reasonably be taken with a grain of salt.

    For instance, the PUMA movement of 2008 (anti-Obama Democrats (claiming “pro-Hillary)) from the last election cycle. They seem to always show up in polls around that 10-15% margin (not that I believe their numbers are actually that large in the broader public. Of course, whenever you encounter these folks, they “CLAIM” to be Democrats to this day…yet are often big supporters of Palin, Fox News, conservative radio…and voted for McCain in the last election…

    So yeah…I caution everyone to take that particular 10% polled with a grain of salt and healthy skepticism as well. They are clearly ODS sufferers and there is a sufficient reasonable doubt to believe that they actually continue to vote for Democratic Party candidates (or ever were part of Obama’s base in the first place)…

    I fail to see any evidence that the ODS-infected out there are a factor at all in this upcoming election cycle. There is simply NO credible evidence that has come forward to date that indicates any of those folks ever voted for Obama in the first place, nor would they in this election under any reasonable circumstances. Therefore, they have ALWAYS been already baked into the equation as part of the existing “base” of opposition votes to be cast against him.

    No, the real flexible margins of this election will not hinge on that kind of nonsense. The real issues come down to “base” turnout, particularly in a polarized political environment.

    Where there remains a true undecided middle to be swayed or changed from last time, it will be most likely be based on other standard factors, such as POV and perspective of the economy, proposed “platforms/promises” for the future and the calculation between sticking with re-electing a known entity or being persuaded to take a risk with a replacement.

    Even if “turnout” is a concern, Obama was first elected with a VERY sizeable and comfortable margin in both the Popular Vote (over 9.5 Million votes in Obama’s favor) and the Electoral College (192 more for Obama). So he retains quite a bit of breathing room…. especially as an incumbent against a challenger that lacks the ability to generate much personal enthusiasm.

    Therefore, in a fairly polarized environment, with those wide margins and the current re-election candidacies in place, I do not see ANY plausible scenario where ODS isn’t electorally irrelevant and already sufficiently baked into the equation. In a razor-thin election scenario, maybe such an argument could be made. But the existing data, combined with the entrenched polarization, doesn’t match up with the perception meme of there suddenly being that vast a shift to enduce a true “razor-thin” margin.

    The attempts to spread ODS memes, such as Birtherism are very polarizing by their own nature and thus, only serve to reinforce the existing dynamic…including turnout. Those likely to buy into such propaganda are already predisposed in their attitude, and thus were never part of the potential Obama vote in the first place. But such smear tactics ALSO serve to have the opposite effect in those that support him – to rally around someone perceived as being unfairly attacked. Therefore, ODS propaganda memes only serve to also motivate voter turnout and donations amongst his base support as well.

    donna:
    a poll was just released by Dartmouth government professor Benjamin Valentino

    64% of Republicans believe that Obama was born in another country.

    63% of Republican respondents STILL BELIEVE that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the United States invaded in 2003, even though this assertion has been thoroughly debunked.

    10% of DEMOCRATS think obama was born in another country.

    Less than 15% of DEMOCRATS believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the United States invaded in 2003

    30% OF INDEPENDENTS think Obama was born in another country.

    27% of INDEPENDENTS believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the United States invaded in 2003

    FASCINATING!!!!

  186. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 21, 2012 at 7:50 pm #

    As I said in my longer reply to Jerry, birthers would brush microfilm results aside and say that Obama’s grandmother bribed/coerced Dr. Sinclair to fake the certificate back in 1961 and slip it into the legitimate work flow from the hospital to the Health Department.

    Anyone who has watched birthers and their shifting goalposts for any length of time knows that evidence is irrelevant and always has been.

    JPotter: What is this fascination with microfiche?!?

  187. avatar
    Majority Will June 21, 2012 at 7:51 pm #

    JPotter: What is this fascination with microfiche?!?

    The microfiche is meaningless. It just represents another idiotic goal post for the birther bigot to move.

    Next they’ll be demanding the doctor’s audio notes on wax cylinders.

  188. avatar
    donna June 21, 2012 at 7:51 pm #

    Majority Will “These surveys never seem to ask about eligibility.”

    this wasn’t that kind of poll

    my fascination was the correlation between the people who still believe there were WMDs & those who think obama was born in another country

    the numbers are almost identical depending on whether you were rep, dem or indy

    i refer to those people as no/low information voters

    IF people really believed obama were “ineligible”, his numbers would reflect that

    some brithers think romney is ineligible yet he was just chosen out of a dozen other candidates

  189. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 21, 2012 at 7:53 pm #

    I agree. Personally I think that 50% of independents are just Republicans trying to appear cool.

    G: First, the over-generalized term “INDEPENDENTS” is fairly meaningless as an aggregate

  190. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 7:56 pm #

    Hi Jerry,

    Again, I fail to see that you’ve thought through your argument or provided any model to which your mere conjecture stands up under scrutiny. I just laid out the case for why such political appeasement PR would be nothing but FOLLY and a FOOL’S ERRAND for his campaign in a previous reply on political polling to another poster. What I said there serves to also rebut and debunk your premise here, so I’ll restate it again:

    I fail to see any evidence that the ODS-infected out there are a factor at all in this upcoming election cycle. There is simply NO credible evidence that has come forward to date that indicates any of those folks ever voted for Obama in the first place, nor would they in this election under any reasonable circumstances. Therefore, they have ALWAYS been already baked into the equation as part of the existing “base” of opposition votes to be cast against him.

    No, the real flexible margins of this election will not hinge on that kind of nonsense. The real issues come down to “base” turnout, particularly in a polarized political environment.

    Where there remains a true undecided middle to be swayed or changed from last time, it will be most likely be based on other standard factors, such as POV and perspective of the economy, proposed “platforms/promises” for the future and the calculation between sticking with re-electing a known entity or being persuaded to take a risk with a replacement.

    Even if “turnout” is a concern, Obama was first elected with a VERY sizeable and comfortable margin in both the Popular Vote (over 9.5 Million votes in Obama’s favor) and the Electoral College (192 more for Obama). So he retains quite a bit of breathing room…. especially as an incumbent against a challenger that lacks the ability to generate much personal enthusiasm.

    Therefore, in a fairly polarized environment, with those wide margins and the current re-election candidacies in place, I do not see ANY plausible scenario where ODS isn’t electorally irrelevant and already sufficiently baked into the equation. In a razor-thin election scenario, maybe such an argument could be made. But the existing data, combined with the entrenched polarization, doesn’t match up with the perception meme of there suddenly being that vast a shift to enduce a true “razor-thin” margin.

    The attempts to spread ODS memes, such as Birtherism are very polarizing by their own nature and thus, only serve to reinforce the existing dynamic…including turnout. Those likely to buy into such propaganda are already predisposed in their attitude, and thus were never part of the potential Obama vote in the first place. But such smear tactics ALSO serve to have the opposite effect in those that support him – to rally around someone perceived as being unfairly attacked. Therefore, ODS propaganda memes only serve to also motivate voter turnout and donations amongst his base support as well.

    So, I argue that again Jerry, you are not thinking your premise through rationally and fully and that you have yet to make a valid argument to support such contentions. How can you expect to accomplish anything tangible here, if you are merely blustering about without substance behind you?

    Whether he should or shouldn’t be reelected is certainly a matter of individual opinion and hence, why we all vote in the first place. I fully respect your right and intent not to vote for him. I do not expect you to, NOR do I have any interest in persuading you to change your vote. I simply argue that under the current environment and dynamic, you are already factored into the equation and whether the net result of the election goes “your way” or otherwise, you simply need to accept it. You certainly don’t have to like it or agree with it. But there is no need for you or anyone to make up irrational sore-loser arguments or take up frivolous actions, simply because an election didn’t go your way.

    Jerry Collette:
    If I were in the PR department of his reelection campaign, I would certainly recommend that. That he has not done so says to me that he either has something to hide or doesn’t have the competence to make such a simple decision. Either way, maybe he shouldn’t be reelected.

    Best,

    Jerry

    You are very welcome and I very much appreciate the opportunity! It has been a pleasure to hear from you and to dialogue with you. 

    Jerry Collette:

    P.S. While I don’t have time, now, to address the comments on this thread, nonetheless, I thank your audience for their interest in this important subject.

  191. avatar
    bovril June 21, 2012 at 8:03 pm #

    Based on the statements of the HDoH, there is NO microfiche record there are the original bound records and there are electronic records.

    For example it was stated that when the LFBC was printed it was taken from the bound book.

  192. avatar
    Stanislaw June 21, 2012 at 8:07 pm #

    Sally Hill:

    Poor John….you need to understand this blog is about ‘group think’, nothing more.There is no real discussion with open minds. They have their minds made up, they believe Obama hook, line and sinker.

    You’re mistaking groupthink with a group that thinks. Common birther mistake. As you were.

  193. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 8:19 pm #

    An excellent point, but one that I think better serves as a general warning of self-reflection to ANY of us and not only to Jerry in this particular situation.

    It is very easy, particularly when one is intelligent, for the ego to overinflate and assume we know better or can do better in theory than people who ACTUALLY do certain things for a living, in which we have no actual direct experience.

    (Then again, per the Dunning-Kruger Effect, that seems to also hold true for those who lack such wits in the first place. 😉 )

    So yeah, I completely agree with you and others that Jerry has come across like a bit of an arrogant and unqualfied blowhard in making that particular statement. However, I DO think he’s smart enough (and at least TRIES to be sincere enough) that he is actually capable of taking a moment to pause and reflect on what he said and how you, others and I have reacted to it and eventually GRASP where he’s letting his ego get the best of him.

    So I hold out hope that he is capable of self-reflection and introspection and being able to grow from this feedback and be less “lazy” in his glib assessments in the future.

    I too will take your wise lesson to heart and do my best to constantly reassess and reflect upon it.

    That is one of the things I love most about this blog – how much I can constantly learn from others about topics outside of my own areas of personal knowledge and experience. It is a wonderful and humbling experience – especially in the realm of legal cases and how the law works. As IANAL, I usually do my best to limit my commentary or opinions on those conversation topics that specifically require such expertise and instead just do my best to learn from them.

    Nor would I be so foolish as to confidently tell professional political operatives (with a successful record) that they don’t know what they are doing…

    Scientist: Collette reminds me of the loudmouths who call sports talk shows and believe they know how to manage the Yankees much better than Joe Girardi does.Axelrod and Plouffe have already managed a successful presidential campaign; they have their candidateahead, if only modestly, in an economy where he could easily be 5 points behind.As far as I know Collette hasn’t run a successful campaign for dog catcher (and. yes, I know that dog catcher is not actually an elective office).

    Jerry Collette: If I were in the PR department of his reelection campaign, I would certainly recommend that. That he has not done so says to me that he either has something to hide or doesn’t have the competence to make such a simple decision.

  194. avatar
    linda June 21, 2012 at 8:25 pm #

    Doc, I agree completely with your response to Mr. Collette. Well said, indeed.

  195. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 8:26 pm #

    LOL! I tip my hat to you sir! +1000 Jeopardy or Trivial Pursuit points are now headed your way!!

    What a good find and KUDOS to you on doing the actual research on this particular urban legend!!

    As per the Wikipedia article you cited,

    It claims to be the only municipality in the United States which has an elected position of dogcatcher.[3]

    Now, footnote 3 seems to go nowhere, so I checked the town’s actual website and found confirmation that PROVES it is true and that Dog Catcher *IS* an elected position there:

    http://www.duxburyvermont.org/index.asp?Type=B_DIR&SEC={AB28124F-6DE1-45B4-B154-BB6A2228F103}

    Under the list of elected officials on that page, it clearly states:

    Dog Catcher: Zeb Towne

    LMAO!!! 😉

    JPotter: It is in Duxbury, VT!

    Run, Jerry, Run!

  196. avatar
    linda June 21, 2012 at 8:27 pm #

    Precisely.

    donna: my fascination was the correlation between the people who still believe there were WMDs & those who think obama was born in another country

    i refer to those people as no/low information voters

  197. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater June 21, 2012 at 8:27 pm #

    Jerry Collette:
    Dear Doc,

    I just got to read your article. Thank you for your concern.

    As I said on the radio show, Barack Obama could easily mitigate any damages from the birther movement by simply authorizing better access to the original birth records and, as Sheriff Joe pointed out, the microfiche. If I were in the PR department of his reelection campaign, I would certainly recommend that. That he has not done so says to me that he either has something to hide or doesn’t have the competence to make such a simple decision. Either way, maybe he shouldn’t be reelected.

    Best,

    Jerry

    P.S. While I don’t have time, now, to address the comments on this thread, nonetheless, I thank your audience for their interest in this important subject.

    Mitigate my ass. You and I both know nothing he does would stop the lawsuits. You even admitted half your case is based on your mistaken belief that it takes two citizen parents to be eligible. Even so releasing the original which is not something he has the power to do wouldn’t change anything as you and other birthers will just say it was planted or created well after the fact. You are a dishonest hack Jerry. In our after show I asked you about Sam Sewell and how you could trust he is who he says he is to serve on your board. You stated we just act like the old days, we take them at their word. It’s funny how you trust someone like Sam at his word and not the President. But now it’s beyond that, you have the Department of Health of Hawaii’s word, and other records backing up his birth and you still don’t trust it. It wreaks of hypocrisy. You have one set of rules for Obama and one set of rules for everyone else.

  198. avatar
    linda June 21, 2012 at 8:29 pm #

    An excellent point.

    Stanislaw: You’re mistaking groupthink with a group that thinks. Common birther mistake. As you were.

  199. avatar
    Stanislaw June 21, 2012 at 8:55 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Mitigate my ass.You and I both know nothing he does would stop the lawsuits.You even admitted half your case is based on your mistaken belief that it takes two citizen parents to be eligible.Even so releasing the original which is not something he has the power to do wouldn’t change anything as you and other birthers will just say it was planted or created well after the fact.You are a dishonest hack Jerry.In our after show I asked you about Sam Sewell and how you could trust he is who he says he is to serve on your board.You stated we just act like the old days, we take them at their word.It’s funny how you trust someone like Sam at his word and not the President.But now it’s beyond that, you have the Department of Health of Hawaii’s word, and other records backing up his birth and you still don’t trust it.It wreaks of hypocrisy.You have one set of rules for Obama and one set of rules for everyone else.

    Shorter birther movement: “The President won’t meet my unreasonable demands? He’s hiding something!”

  200. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 9:07 pm #

    Yes, that particular Dartmouth’s poll’s numbers were particularly disheartening… not just on claimed Birtherism (Q64) but also on those that erroneously still believe that Iraq had WMD (or at least tell pollsters that) (Q63).

    Then again, there were a few odd outliers with this particular 1056 respondant dataset that stood out and caught my eye:

    In Q1-Q3, the data seems to show a significant proportion of overall respondants who view themselves as “libertarian”, “evangelical” and show some support for the Tea Party. Those proportions across the segmentation seemed sufficiently higher than I’ve seen in other broad-based polling to date.

    In the demographic questions, I noticed that ONLY 24.6% of these respondants had a college degree or more. (see pg 28). So I also see a likely correlation to lack of higher education at play here as well…

    Just my two-cents on this one.

    linda:
    I think those numbers are disheartening.Only 79% of dems believe Obama was born in the US, for independents that numbers drops to 49% and hits a barrel-scraping 22% for the reps.
    http://www.dartmouth.edu/~benv/files/poll%20responses%20by%20party%20ID.pdf

  201. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 21, 2012 at 9:10 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: As I said in my longer reply to Jerry, birthers would brush microfilm results aside and say that Obama’s grandmother bribed/coerced Dr. Sinclair to fake the certificate back in 1961 and slip it into the legitimate work flow from the hospital to the Health Department.

    Moses could walk to downtown Honlulu from the heights of the Pali with Obama’s birth certificate chiseled on a lava tablet and they’d complain that he and God were in on the coverup.

  202. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 9:13 pm #

    Those that make such demands are merely performing a Pavlovian response and acting like gullible parroting sheep, because they merely HEARD the term “microfiche” in their little selective circles that spoon feed them all their “thinking points” (aka talking points) and tell them what to say.

    These folks don’t think independently. They are just roused to anger by stuff that someone else in their “information circle” told them to be angry about…and like good little brainwashed followers, they instinctively start shouting it from the rooftops themselves.

    Simply another very illustrative example of lazy thinking from the gut-reactionary crowd.

    JPotter: What is this fascination with microfiche?!? Why do the silly birthers think fudging a sheet of microfiche is any harder that whipping up “custom” vital records and slipping them into state archives? They’re already obsessing over the specter of shadowy operatives armed with vintage paper forms and typewriters … why not a vintage microforming lab as well?

    Did anyone ever determine that any of Hawaii’s vital records were transferred to microfiche or -film? I see that the Family History Library in Utah has microfilm copies for Hawaii up to certain dates, depending on type of record.

  203. avatar
    Scientist June 21, 2012 at 9:19 pm #

    G: Now, footnote 3 seems to go nowhere, so I checked the town’s actual website and found confirmation that PROVES it is true and that Dog Catcher *IS* an elected position there:
    http://www.duxburyvermont.org/index.asp?Type=B_DIR&SEC={AB28124F-6DE1-45B4-B154-BB6A2228F103}
    Under the list of elected officials on that page, it clearly states:
    Dog Catcher: Zeb Towne

    The title at the top of that page says “Other Elected and Appointed Officials” so I am not convinced that the dogcatcher is elected. I will try to call the town offices tomorrow.and let everyone know.

    By the way, Duxbury lies right below Camel’s Hump, which is shown on their web page. I I climbed it once and got caught on the open summit in a thunderstorm. The next town over, Waterbury, has the Ben and Jerry’s ice cream factory. A fun visit if you are ever in the area.

  204. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 9:21 pm #

    Kudos! Another excellent post and I agree with everything you stated. I’m only selecting and highlighting a few small sections, because I feel they deserve extra emphasis and cannot be repeated enough in response to such willful denialism.

    Dr. Conspiracy: In fact no matter what reason you give for thinking Obama was foreign born, any reason any birther ever used, people believed Obama was foreign born before that.

    The “born in Kenya” rumor started on a day that we can identify in a post on the Internet that had nothing but the story of Obama born in Kenya without a single reason presented to believe it, but believe it people did. In the 4 years since then, people have been trying to rationalize that belief with various “reasons”, but the belief came first and then the “reasons.” That is why evidence, including my 16 points, makes no difference. It is about belief, not reason. Birthers, you included, have invested so much of their self image and their personal reputation in belief that Obama was foreign born, or in the validity of doubts about it, that they would crush their self image to change — so they don’t and they can’t. Microfilm is just the excuse of the day.

    And if there is any argument to show that birthers are immune to reason, just look in the mirror. You saw my 16 points. If you can’t see a compelling picture, you’re beyond hope. A microfilm examination would just be point 17 of a list that is brushed aside in favor of a bevy of faux experts, anonymous sources, outright lies, and errors.

    So somehow forensic experts verify the Obama birth certificate is on 51-year-old microfilm. What of it? Obama got to the expert — threatened to kill his kid. Dr. Sinclair was bribed to file a false birth report in 1961. The CIA keeps unexposed vintage microfilm in a vault for just such purposes. There’s no mitigation Obama can do. The only thing that will help is for people like you to think instead of being led around by the nose and to take responsibility for your own actions.
    I fear that is not going to happen.

    PS. There are few things in life that disgust me as much as “blame the victim.”

  205. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 9:23 pm #

    I concur.

    donna: my fascination was the correlation between the people who still believe there were WMDs & those who think obama was born in another country

    the numbers are almost identical depending on whether you were rep, dem or indy
    i refer to those people as no/low information voters

    IF people really believed obama were “ineligible”, his numbers would reflect that

  206. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 9:36 pm #

    LOL! Yeah – at least somewhere between a third and a half of them likely fit that bill.

    My brother-in-law is a perfect example of that set. Mr. Tea-Party has been loudly trying to profess his “independence” and “reimagine” his past voting record for the past 6 years now… something I’ve confronted him on numerous occasions, as to this day, he can still NOT come up with a single example of when he’s ever voted for anything BUT a GOP candidate in his life… (although he claims some “libertarian” votes…yet can’t recall the names or races). And the man will be 50 next year…so he’s had a very long voting record to judge him on.

    But one challenge to your assessment if I may – I’m not so sure if they are trying to “appear cool” quite so much as simply trying to run away from the stink of the GOP label

    These “Tea Party” so-called “independent conservative” types such as my brother-in-law do also regularly complain and gripe about how much Bush/ the GOP hasn’t “come through for them” (which they glibly blame on individual politicians being “RINOs
    or “corrupt” or that the “NWO” got to them…etc)…

    …yet they keep voting for these same fools over and over and over again…because they’ve been raised and brainwashed to think that everyone else is a bunch of “commies out to git them”… *facepalm*

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I agree. Personally I think that 50% of independents are just Republicans trying to appear cool.

  207. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 9:39 pm #

    Yep. That pretty much sums up the endless hypocricy and lack of critical thinking skills we see applied in Birtherism (and in modern RW “conservatism” in general)…

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: In our after show I asked you about Sam Sewell and how you could trust he is who he says he is to serve on your board. You stated we just act like the old days, we take them at their word. It’s funny how you trust someone like Sam at his word and not the President. But now it’s beyond that, you have the Department of Health of Hawaii’s word, and other records backing up his birth and you still don’t trust it. It wreaks of hypocrisy. You have one set of rules for Obama and one set of rules for everyone else.

  208. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 9:40 pm #

    BINGO.

    Stanislaw: Shorter birther movement: “The President won’t meet my unreasonable demands? He’s hiding something!”

  209. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 9:46 pm #

    Good point. I guess I too quickly accepted that page as confirmation of what Wikipedia says they claim.

    I look forward to hearing what you find out. When you call, see what you can find out about that specific office, IF it is actually elected… I think that might help fill in the blanks, as I suspect that IF it *is* an elected office, they have simply recently made it so, for no real reason other than to claim attention for actually making that urban legend true…

    So, I’d be curious to find out:

    – When it first became an elected position

    – What is the pay, duties and term lengths / limits?

    – How “seriously” it has been competitively contested in the past and whether candidates openly declare their political party affiliation or not…

    Scientist: The title at the top of that page says “Other Elected and Appointed Officials” so I am not convinced that the dogcatcher is elected.I will try to call the town offices tomorrow.and let everyone know.

    By the way, Duxbury lies right below Camel’s Hump, which is shown on their web page.I I climbed it once and got caught on the open summit in a thunderstorm.The nexttown over, Waterbury, has the Ben and Jerry’s ice cream factory.A fun visit if you are ever in the area.

  210. avatar
    SluggoJD June 21, 2012 at 9:56 pm #

    Hi Jerry,

    If I was God, I would make all people who lack honor disappear, and never bother good people again.

    Go away.

  211. avatar
    y_p_w June 21, 2012 at 9:57 pm #

    Scientist: The title at the top of that page says “Other Elected and Appointed Officials” so I am not convinced that the dogcatcher is elected.I will try to call the town offices tomorrow.and let everyone know.

    By the way, Duxbury lies right below Camel’s Hump, which is shown on their web page.I I climbed it once and got caught on the open summit in a thunderstorm.The nexttown over, Waterbury, has the Ben and Jerry’s ice cream factory.A fun visit if you are ever in the area.

    They have a town elections page that lists all official results since 2004. I don’t see any election for dogcatcher, although you never know if it’s something like a judicial election which takes place every 10 years.

    http://www.town.duxbury.ma.us/Public_Documents/DuxburyMA_Clerk/elect/Election

  212. avatar
    Scientist June 21, 2012 at 10:03 pm #

    As far as surveys, I am sceptical of most of them, other than those that directly measure voting intentions, because they are enormously sensitive to wording, the order the choices are given and many other variables. In the end, all that matters is “Who are you voting for?” which polls are pretty accurate on.

    it’s interesting to look at polls on budget-related issues. Large majorities support cutting the deficit. However, large majorities oppose raising taxes (at least on themselves). Large majorities also oppose cuts to: Social Security, Medicare, defense, roads, border security, anti-terrorism efforts, farm programs, and on and on. The only thing that a majority thinks should be cut is foreign aid, which is <1% of the budget (though most people think it is around 25%). So, how can anyone base policy on those polls?

    I'm curious if anyone ever asked where people think McCain was born. Whatever the outcome of such a poll, he was of course indisputably born outside the US, yet 47% voted for him.

    I think it is probably a mistake to take the participants of this site as representative. Most people don't give much thought to birth or eligibility. They judge based on perceptions. Pretty much everyone would say Henry Kissinger wasn't born in the US. But how many would say that of Jennifer Granholm, who was born in Canada? Virtually nobody. So, Obama, certainly speaks like an American (unlike Kissenger), but he has a foreign name, unlike Granholm. So some people, especially those who don't support him will consider him foreign. I'm sure plenty of people think Mario Cuomo was born in Italy (frankly I suspect that of Mario Apuzzo) and plenty of folks in Nebraska doubtless found him foreign even if they thought he was born in Queens, NY.

    That's why I think this whole eligibility thing is overblown as an issue and simply is not a factor in the election. The NBC thing is a foolish rule that fails even the most fundamental tests of logic. Who would any sensible person consider more American-someone who came here as a 1 year old and lived here their whole life or someone born here who left at 1 and came back for 14 years at age 50? The answer is self-evident.

    No, the ONLY issue for Obama is, as James Carville said ,"The economy, stupid". A 0.1 % tick up or down in the unemployment rate will have a 100x greater impact than anything Corsi or Arpaio or Collette says.

  213. avatar
    Stanislaw June 21, 2012 at 10:04 pm #

    G:
    Those that make such demands are merely performing a Pavlovian response and acting like gullible parroting sheep, because they merely HEARD the term “microfiche” in their little selective circles that spoon feed them all their “thinking points” (aka talking points) and tell them what to say.

    I would love to see what would happen if someone did “forensically examine” the microfiche (what does that even mean, anyway?) and that person concluded “Yep, it’s authentic. It hasn’t been doctored in any way, shape, or form.” That means the birthers will move the goalposts back even further.

    They’ll say the expert was threatened/bribed/corerced. Or that the expert is afraid that the “Blacks” will riot in the streets. Or that he’s waiting to release his true findings until after the election so that there won’t be a “Constitutional crisis.” Or that Mitt Romney struck a deal with Barack Obama, which included doctoring the results of the examination. Or that his report was fabricated in exchange for…hell, I don’t even know what the idiots would do. There’s no way I could make myself delusional enough to get inside their heads.

  214. avatar
    Scientist June 21, 2012 at 10:10 pm #

    y_p_w: They have a town elections page that lists all official results since 2004. I don’t see any election for dogcatcher, although you never know if it’s something like a judicial election which takes place every 10 years.
    http://www.town.duxbury.ma.us/Public_Documents/DuxburyMA_Clerk/elect/Election

    Your link is for Duxbury, MA, not Duxbury, VT. But they are probably all Red Sox fans in both places (though some Vermonters were Expos fans until they became the Washington Nationals).

    G: I look forward to hearing what you find out.

    I will post back if I can reach anyone there.

  215. avatar
    G June 21, 2012 at 10:18 pm #

    Yeah, that one always gets me. It seems to be just another sign of how glib and lazy many American loudmouths are and how completely disconnected their essentially “cushy modern lives” have become from actually needing to participate in addressing real world problems.

    They just *love* to complain about the debt, etc…

    But do they ever want to lift a finger or contribute to actually FIX the problems or be willing to PAY the very real costs necessary to address these problems… NOPE….

    Scientist: it’s interesting to look at polls on budget-related issues. Large majorities support cutting the deficit. However, large majorities oppose raising taxes (at least on themselves). Large majorities also oppose cuts to: Social Security, Medicare, defense, roads, border security, anti-terrorism efforts, farm programs, and on and on. The only thing that a majority thinks should be cut is foreign aid, which is <1% of the budget (though most people think it is around 25%). So, how can anyone base policy on those polls?

  216. avatar
    Keith June 21, 2012 at 11:32 pm #

    Jerry Collette: as Sheriff Joe pointed out, the microfiche.

    What microfiche, Jerry? What microfiche?

  217. avatar
    Keith June 21, 2012 at 11:35 pm #

    Jerry Collette: If I were in the PR department of his reelection campaign,

    Is that not a bit redundant? An “election campaign” is ALL PR department, isn’t it?

  218. avatar
    Keith June 21, 2012 at 11:46 pm #

    Scientist: (though some Vermonters were Expos fans until they became the Washington Nationals).

    I thought any Benedict Arnold’s descendants would be in Connecticut where he was from. Did they migrate to Vermont to escape the ignominy or to be closer to him in Canada perhaps?

  219. avatar
    y_p_w June 22, 2012 at 12:30 am #

    Scientist: Your link is for Duxbury, MA, not Duxbury, VT. But they are probably all Red Sox fans in both places (though some Vermonters were Expos fans until they became the Washington Nationals).

    Oh – I guess I did miss that. There are two town with the same odd name?

    I did find this:

    Duxbury wrestles with roads
    http://www.stowetoday.com/waterbury_record/news/article_840ca2ec-6934-11e1-9a39-0019bb2963f4.html

    Duxbury residents showed confidence Tuesday in select board member Dick Charland, re-electing him to a three-year term.

    Town-meeting voters backed Charland almost two-to-one over former selectman Bob Magee, who challenged him for the seat.

    Both men are on a town road committee, which advises the select board on managing the town’s road crew and machinery. The condition of town roads has been a point of contention in the past year. Spring flooding caused almost $1 million in road damage a month after a new road foreman was appointed. More destruction followed in August from Tropical Storm Irene.

    “Last year was a challenge for me and for everyone who went through what they did,” Charland said before the vote. He received 90 votes to Magee’s 46.
    Officials in Duxbury are nominated and elected from the floor.

    [snip]

    Zeb Towne told voters he was gearing up for the media swarm after being re-elected town dogcatcher. “I got six calls already from reporters,” said Towne. “I guess I’m the only elected dogcatcher in the U.S.”

    “Well, then, you’re putting us on the map,” Morse said.

    So they’ve got positions nominated and elected by a public vote at a scheduled town hall meeting.

  220. avatar
    G June 22, 2012 at 2:13 am #

    Interesting! I wonder how long that has been an elected position and if anyone other than Zeb Towne has held that office…

    y_p_w: Zeb Towne told voters he was gearing up for the media swarm after being re-elected town dogcatcher. “I got six calls already from reporters,” said Towne. “I guess I’m the only elected dogcatcher in the U.S.”
    “Well, then, you’re putting us on the map,” Morse said.
    So they’ve got positions nominated and elected by a public vote at a scheduled town hall meeting.

  221. avatar
    JPotter June 22, 2012 at 3:45 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Microfilm is just the excuse of the day.

    Majority Will: The microfiche is meaningless.

    Thanks, guys, was curious as to whether I had missed anything. Gosh, that would have been tragic. Sometimes, even birther memes are metastasized out of a kernel of truth. Sometimes. At 3am, I can’t remember any of those times …

  222. avatar
    JPotter June 22, 2012 at 3:48 am #

    donna: my fascination was the correlation between the people who still believe there were WMDs & those who think obama was born in another country

    It was a fun correlation of political beliefs and rationality … a spectrum of emphasis on belief over reason to emphasis on reason over belief.

    Or it could be a spectrum of bias in regards to political narratives …. but I am biased against that interpretation.

  223. avatar
    Lupin June 22, 2012 at 4:46 am #

    Correlation doesn’t mean causality; as opponents of Dr Wertham’s famous study on 1950s comics and teenage delinquency pointed out, a majority of kids in reform schools drink milk; it doesn’t mean that milk causes teenage delinquency.

  224. avatar
    JPotter June 22, 2012 at 4:47 am #

    G:
    Interesting!I wonder how long that has been an elected position and if anyone other than Zeb Towne has held that office…

    Wow, didn’t guess that would be of such interest! After a few minutes of searching farther, I see reports that the office was up in 2009, and up in 2012, so I guess it’s an ongoing thing. He’s also listed as one of the town’s fence viewers (I love that those still exist! What about hogreaves? hide inspectors?). It also seems that he lost a dog last December. Bummer.

    In the 2011 Northwestern Vermont Animal Resources Guide, he’s listed as an Animal Control Officer, so he is apparently actively engaged in the trade, not just a honorary title.

    There a story from a small paper in Ashland, KY, about the phrase that lead the writer, Ken Hart, to Duxbury, VT, as well:

    http://dailyindependent.com/columns/x816761249/KEN-HART-A-dog-of-an-office/print

    So, it all looks legit to me, just that a small, independent town decided to call the post “dogcatcher” as a goof. Also look like the old Colonial tradition of every darn near every citizen having a position or two or three (gov’t of, by, for the people!) is alive and well!

  225. avatar
    Scientist June 22, 2012 at 8:05 am #

    I called the Town Office in Duxbury, VT. The person I spoke to confirmed it is an elective position and has been as far back as anyone remembers. The election is done at the annual town meeting and Mr Towne has held the position unopposed for “a long time”. The job is unpaid, but there is a small budget for expenses.

    So, the question is: Could Obama or Romney get elected dogcatcher in Duxbury, VT? I would say probably not, because the residents appear very satisfied with the work done by Mr Towne and would be leery of bringing in an outsider to do what he has been doing just fine. If Duxburians were forced to choose between the 2, I would give Obama the edge, because of Romney’s little incident with Seamus and also because Romney has a house in New Hampshire and Vermonters have a bitter rivalry with the Granite State.

  226. avatar
    JPotter June 22, 2012 at 9:52 am #

    So, Scientist, even dogcatchers treat their animals humanely? Tehy don’t even lash nuisance dogs to the roof?

    I think Romney is a robot.

  227. avatar
    The Magic M June 22, 2012 at 11:20 am #

    Stanislaw: I would love to see what would happen if someone did “forensically examine” the microfiche (what does that even mean, anyway?) and that person concluded “Yep, it’s authentic. It hasn’t been doctored in any way, shape, or form.” That means the birthers will move the goalposts back even further.

    They’ll simply claim the document that was microfiched is the one that was forged.

  228. avatar
    Rickey June 22, 2012 at 12:11 pm #

    Keith: What microfiche, Jerry? What microfiche?

    Of course, the last thing that Jerry wants is the truth. The objective is simply to keep the birther movement alive, so they keep demanding evidence which may not exist (the microfiche) or which probably no longer exists (hospital records of Obama’s birth). And even if that evidence does exist, they know full well that no court is ever going to grant their demands to see it.

    In case anyone missed it, the Liberty Legal Foundation/Dummett ballot challenge in Tennessee was dismissed yesterday.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/97824831/TN-WDTN-LLF-2012-06-21-Memorandum-ORDER-DISMISSING-CASE

  229. avatar
    G June 22, 2012 at 4:28 pm #

    Fascinating stuff!!!

    Kudos gentlemen, for sharing your research on this!!

    JPotter: Wow, didn’t guess that would be of such interest! After a few minutes of searching farther, I see reports that the office was up in 2009, and up in 2012, so I guess it’s an ongoing thing. He’s also listed as one of the town’s fence viewers (I love that those still exist! What about hogreaves? hide inspectors?). It also seems that he lost a dog last December. Bummer.

    In the 2011 Northwestern Vermont Animal Resources Guide, he’s listed as an Animal Control Officer, so he is apparently actively engaged in the trade, not just a honorary title.

    There a story from a small paper in Ashland, KY, about the phrase that lead the writer, Ken Hart, to Duxbury, VT, as well:

    http://dailyindependent.com/columns/x816761249/KEN-HART-A-dog-of-an-office/print

    So, it all looks legit to me, just that a small, independent town decided to call the post “dogcatcher” as a goof. Also look like the old Colonial tradition of every darn near every citizen having a position or two or three (gov’t of, by, for the people!) is alive and well!

    Scientist:
    I called the Town Office in Duxbury, VT.The person I spoke to confirmed it is an elective position and has been as far back as anyone remembers.The election is done at the annual town meeting and Mr Towne has held the position unopposed for “a long time”.The job is unpaid, but there is a small budget for expenses.

    So, the question is: Could Obama or Romney get elected dogcatcher in Duxbury, VT?I would say probably not, because the residents appear very satisfied with the work done by Mr Towne and would be leery of bringing in an outsider to do what he has been doing just fine.If Duxburians were forced to choose between the 2, I would give Obama the edge, because of Romney’s little incident with Seamus and also because Romney has a house in New Hampshire and Vermonters have a bitter rivalry with the Granite State.