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Fact checking the Obots

imageThe normal scenario is where a birther says something outlandish, and you can go to FactCheck.org, or Snopes.com or PolitiFact.com and see the Truth-o-Meter pinged in the “Pants on fire” zone.

On the other hand, when an Obot makes a claim, it’s normally well-sourced and not really a matter of controversy or in need of fact checking. That’s why I did a double-take when I saw this article at the Tennessee franchise of PolitiFact.com:

Says a federal judge “sanctions Tennessee ‘birther’ lawyer … for bringing a frivolous lawsuit.”

No news for regular readers here. I reported the sanctions against Liberty Legal Foundation attorney Van R. Irion on August 25, in my article “The Democrat’s Strike Back.”

Apparently the Tennessee Democratic Party released a press release last week touting the sanctions, and PolitiFact Tennessee thought they would check it out. Their ruling:

The Tennessee Democratic Party wanted to bring attention to Tennessee “birthers” challenging President Obama’s citizenship, and did so by pushing a press release claiming the judge found the claims so “frivolous” that he sanctioned the plaintiffs who brought them. We rule the statement True.

They might have done a little more digging and uncovered Van Irion’s twin lawsuit in Arizona and the earlier one in Georgia (Welden v. Obama). They might have dug up Van Irion’s connections to the racist Southern Legal Resource Center. In any case, they got the right answer.

88 Responses to Fact checking the Obots

  1. avatar
    Phil Cave September 3, 2012 at 11:46 pm #

    Interesting that the attorney compounded his errors by out of court statements calling the judge a liar. Not sure if that would affect the sanctions in the case. But I wonder if it raises an ethics issue with his state bar licencing authority?

  2. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 4, 2012 at 1:12 am #

    Orly Taitz has been getting away with such things for years, although Tennessee isn’t California.

    Phil Cave: But I wonder if it raises an ethics issue with his state bar licensing authority?

  3. avatar
    Lupin September 4, 2012 at 2:43 am #

    I could be wrong, but hasn’t PolitiFact been rather discredited lately and attacked for its sloppiness in fact checking?

  4. avatar
    G September 4, 2012 at 3:45 am #

    You are correct. Over the past few years, they seem to be going out of their way to play the false equivalency game… They have been called out on it a number of times.

    Lupin: I could be wrong, but hasn’t PolitiFact been rather discredited lately and attacked for its sloppiness in fact checking?

  5. avatar
    Thinker September 4, 2012 at 7:37 am #

    Irion’s screed in response to this sanctions ruling is strange. http://libertylegalfoundation.org/2237/the-obamanation-strikes-back/#.UEXkutZlRCA

    For one thing, it’s written in the third person. He says, “Van does not deserve this…” Who does he think he’s fooling? As the Politifact article points out, Liberty Legal Foundation seems to be a one-man operation. Also, he never mentions why he was sanctioned. He makes it sound like the judge ruled that birferism is frivolous. Irion seems to think that, had he been allowed discovery in this case, he would have demonstrated that his case was not frivolous. That’s a strange argument since Irion’s case was purely about the definition of natural born citizen. He did not argue that Obama was not born in the United States. How could discovery have helped his case? He was sanctioned because the judge ruled that he should have known that none of the plaintiffs had standing to sue. Irion’s screed never mentions that.

  6. avatar
    Lupin September 4, 2012 at 7:55 am #

    Thinker: Irion’s screed in response to this sanctions ruling is strange.

    The key graph is:

    “Please help Van fight this attack on his character and on his ability to keep fighting for the Constitution. Show him that you appreciate the work he has done to try to restore our Constitutional rule of law. Please make a donation today.”

    k-ching!

  7. avatar
    Riddle Me This September 4, 2012 at 8:33 am #

    The only question now is whether you’re a willing communist tool or have you been duped:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/09/frank_marshall_davis_and_the_subversion_of_the_democratic_party.html

  8. avatar
    The Magic M September 4, 2012 at 8:36 am #

    I might modify and resurrect my theory on Orly (and possibly Van Irion since he also shows all the signs such as botching an elementary thing like proper service) losing on purpose.
    It makes even more sense now: they are fishing for sanctions (remember Orly’s tendency to call the judge a traitor in her filings) because nothing begs for donations as well as “I am the poor victim of the evil regime trying to silence me”.
    While it may get harder to get people to fall for “donate so I can bring more lawsuits” as more and more of those fail, the victim card always makes the day.

  9. avatar
    Northland10 September 4, 2012 at 9:03 am #

    I believe all of his cases are simply PR for himself and his supposed foundation. I do not recall any court cases from him until this last year and even though he was right next door in Knoxville, he appears to have never lifted a finger to help until now . With this and filings that scream of Orly level incompetence, I feel this is nothing but a publicity stunt.

  10. avatar
    Thomas Brown September 4, 2012 at 9:22 am #

    Riddle Me This:
    The only question now is whether you’re a willing communist tool or have you been duped:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/09/frank_marshall_davis_and_the_subversion_of_the_democratic_party.html

    No, the only question is : Is there no outer limit to the stupidity and gullibility of idiots like you who throw the word “Communist” around like a five-year-old who’s just learned to cuss?

    Seriously, get out of my country so the adults can get to work.

  11. avatar
    G September 4, 2012 at 10:34 am #

    We are neither.

    Are you just projecting your own problems? I can’t speculate as to the first part, but based on the silly nonsense you cited, I can clearly see that you yourself are a delusional dupe.

    Riddle Me This: The only question now is whether you’re a willing communist tool or have you been duped:http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/09/frank_marshall_davis_and_the_subversion_of_the_democratic_party.html

  12. avatar
    The Magic M September 4, 2012 at 10:44 am #

    Northland10: With this and filings that scream of Orly level incompetence, I feel this is nothing but a publicity stunt.

    But any two-bit lawyer can do better with just 30 minutes spent. *I* could do better with 8 hours spent, and I’m neither a lawyer nor from your side of the world (though I’m doing quite well pro se in my home country when I have to).

    I would assume that doing something for publicity would result in trying to put some effort in it. I don’t buy it that attaching to birtherism has somehow lowered his skill significantly (or that he managed being a lawyer for decades with a skill as low as he is espousing now). So if he was making an effort and didn’t lose 50 IQ points all of a sudden, the only explanations are madness and deliberate fumbling. For Orly, I would buy the madness because she obviously never had to make a living as a lawyer. But Apuzzo, Klayman and Van Irion? (I must admit I tend to mix up the latter two.) All totally incompetent fools incapable of even serving the defendant properly who yet somehow were able to practice as professional lawyers for decades? I’m not buying that. So for me, deliberately messing it up is a viable theory.

  13. avatar
    G September 4, 2012 at 11:24 am #

    Agreed. Nothing more than hack publicity and grifting…along with desperation…

    Northland10: I believe all of his cases are simply PR for himself and his supposed foundation. I do not recall any court cases from him until this last year and even though he was right next door in Knoxville, he appears to have never lifted a finger to help until now . With this and filings that scream of Orly level incompetence, I feel this is nothing but a publicity stunt.

  14. avatar
    Lupin September 4, 2012 at 11:51 am #

    Riddle Me This: The only question now is whether you’re a willing communist tool or have you been duped:

    WHAT communists? WHERE? On the Moons of Jupiter?

    Your pathetic, ignorant, deluded raving would make more sense if you complained about zombies or orcs.

    I hesitate to equate the title “American Thinker” with “Military Intelligence” or “Microsoft Works” but I’m sorely tempted.

  15. avatar
    misha September 4, 2012 at 12:10 pm #

    Riddle Me This: The only question now is whether you’re a willing communist tool or have you been duped:

    I am willing: Да здравствует Ленин!

  16. avatar
    Joey September 4, 2012 at 12:23 pm #

    Anybody know what the actual sanction is for Van Irion? Is it court costs or like Orly’s sanction, a hefty fine?

  17. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 4, 2012 at 12:39 pm #

    I don’t know how independent the local franchise PolitiFact operations are.

    Lupin: I could be wrong, but hasn’t PolitiFact been rather discredited lately and attacked for its sloppiness in fact checking?

  18. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 4, 2012 at 12:43 pm #

    Oooooooooooooooooooo. [Said in spooky voice]

    Riddle Me This: The only question now is whether you’re a willing communist tool or have you been duped

  19. avatar
    G September 4, 2012 at 12:46 pm #

    Sane and rational folks refer to that online trash blog, as “American Stinker” for a reason…

    Merely citing that amateur loony bin as a reference is enough to disqualify a person from being taken seriously.

    Lupin: I hesitate to equate the title “American Thinker” with “Military Intelligence” or “Microsoft Works” but I’m sorely tempted.

  20. avatar
    Thinker September 4, 2012 at 12:54 pm #

    The order awards attorney fees “incurred as a result of preparing and briefing Defendants’ motion to dismiss on the standing issue.” So, it’s attorney’s fees, but not the entire cost of the defense. Since the case was dismissed because none of the plaintiffs had standing, the judge ruled that that was the only issue that was sanctionable and that Irion should have known that none of the plaintiffs had standing. The Tennessee Democratic Party has not yet submitted their costs.

    Joey:
    Anybody know what the actual sanction is for Van Irion? Is it court costs or like Orly’s sanction, a hefty fine?

  21. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 4, 2012 at 1:37 pm #

    The sanction is the payment of “reasonable attorney fees related to the preparation and briefing of the motion to dismiss in which they raised the issue of standing.”

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/103848738/2012-08-24-WDTN-LLFvDNC-SANCTIONS-ORDER-ECF-32 (Page 13)

    Birthers believe that such motions cost a small fortune to prepare. Let’s see.

    Joey: Anybody know what the actual sanction is for Van Irion? Is it court costs or like Orly’s sanction, a hefty fine?

  22. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 4, 2012 at 1:50 pm #

    He was too busy trying to keep the Confederate Flag in public schools.

    Northland10: I do not recall any court cases from him until this last year

  23. avatar
    Rickey September 4, 2012 at 2:06 pm #

    Riddle Me This:
    The only question now is whether you’re a willing communist tool or have you been duped:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/09/frank_marshall_davis_and_the_subversion_of_the_democratic_party.html

    Color me confused.

    You birthers had just convinced me that Frank Marshall Davis was Obama’s father. Now you’re telling me that he was just his mentor? Where does that leave Saul Alinsky?

  24. avatar
    Thomas Brown September 4, 2012 at 2:37 pm #

    misha: I am willing: Да здравствует Ленин!

    Не забывайте, Граучо Маркс!

  25. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 4, 2012 at 2:52 pm #

    Please don’t post under multiple user names.

    Riddle Me This: The only question now is whether you’re a willing communist tool or have you been duped

  26. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 4, 2012 at 2:54 pm #

    Где мой словарь?

    Thomas Brown: Не забывайте, Граучо Маркс!

  27. avatar
    ellen September 4, 2012 at 3:10 pm #

    On another site a birther has claimed that the image of Obama’s long form birth certificate should show a visible raised seal. I said that it was on the back and that the raised seal is not clearly visible. Any recommendations?

  28. avatar
    misha September 4, 2012 at 3:29 pm #

    ellen: I said that it was on the back and that the raised seal is not clearly visible. Any recommendations?

    Yes!

    Simply refer him to Obama’s Mombasa BC on the web, for everyone to see.

  29. avatar
    misha September 4, 2012 at 3:33 pm #

    Rickey: You birthers had just convinced me that Frank Marshall Davis was Obama’s father. Now you’re telling me that he was just his mentor? Where does that leave Saul Alinsky?

    Right here, silly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4-spBDcJyk

  30. avatar
    ellen September 4, 2012 at 3:57 pm #

    Re: Simply refer him to Obama’s Mombasa BC on the web, for everyone to see. (in answer to a request for information to disprove a claim that the seal on Obama’s long form should be clearly visible).

    Thanks but satire will not work. Any facts to reply with?

  31. avatar
    Thomas Brown September 4, 2012 at 4:12 pm #

    ellen:
    Re: Simply refer him to Obama’s Mombasa BC on the web, for everyone to see. (in answer to a request for information to disprove a claim that the seal on Obama’s long form should be clearly visible).

    Thanks but satire will not work. Any facts to reply with?

    Nothing will work. You’re a Birther. This means by definition you will accept no evidence that BHO is eligible.

    If you are not a hopeless case, and really interested in facts, see the other archived articles here or at John Woodman’s site. The “missing seal” malarkey has been debunked long ago.

  32. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 4, 2012 at 4:13 pm #

    That’s burden shifting. If the fellow asserts that the seal should be visible, then he should be asked to provide conclusive evidence of his claim. It’s not your job to refute unfounded claims.

    It’s not a matter of front or back, but the fact that the seal has no color and a perfectly straight on light source (such as provided by a scanner) doesn’t cast a shadow to be picked up by the scanner.

    In reality, it depends on the scanner. I scanned my own certificate with a flat bed scanner and the raised seal on it cannot be seen. On another scanner, it’s visible.

    In the photograph of Obama’s birth certificate taken by Savannah Guthrie of NBC News, the seal is visible.

    http://lockerz.com/s/96540937

    The top of the seal hits box 21 left. Zoom in.

    ellen: Re: Simply refer him to Obama’s Mombasa BC on the web, for everyone to see. (in answer to a request for information to disprove a claim that the seal on Obama’s long form should be clearly visible).

  33. avatar
    ellen September 4, 2012 at 4:17 pm #

    Re: “Nothing will work. You’re a Birther. This means by definition you will accept no evidence that BHO is eligible.”

    Gee. And I thought that people would remember me as an anti-birther.

    Thanks Doc! (That should do nicely.)

  34. avatar
    Joey September 4, 2012 at 4:45 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    The sanction is the payment of “reasonable attorney fees related to the preparation and briefing of the motion to dismiss in which they raised the issue of standing.”

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/103848738/2012-08-24-WDTN-LLFvDNC-SANCTIONS-ORDER-ECF-32 (Page 13)

    Birthers believe that such motions cost a small fortune to prepare. Let’s see.

    Thanks Doc!

  35. avatar
    donna September 4, 2012 at 4:54 pm #

    doc: Birthers believe that such motions cost a small fortune to prepare.

    you mean the MILLIONS obama spent “hiding” his records?

    i believe i remember early on, atty fees charged to kerchner (?) – it was under $900

  36. avatar
    Majority Will September 4, 2012 at 6:02 pm #

    ellen: Gee. And I thought that people would remember me as an anti-birther.

    I remember. Unfortunately, some are a little too quick on the trigger (as I have been too in the past).

  37. avatar
    Rickey September 4, 2012 at 6:17 pm #

    ellen:

    Gee. And I thought that people would remember me as an anti-birther.

    I was just about to jump in and defend you, but I see that you have been cleared of any wrongdoing.

  38. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy September 4, 2012 at 6:33 pm #

    I wish folks wouldn’t beat up the birthers.

    Majority Will: I remember. Unfortunately, some are a little too quick on the trigger (as I have been too in the past).

  39. avatar
    Sudoku September 4, 2012 at 6:35 pm #

    I remember you. I think some speed read and are accustomed to blasting a stray birther or twelve.

    ellen: Gee. And I thought that people would remember me as an anti-birther.

  40. avatar
    misha September 4, 2012 at 7:06 pm #

    ellen: Thanks but satire will not work. Any facts to reply with?

    Dr. Conspiracy: That’s burden shifting. If the fellow asserts that the seal should be visible, then he should be asked to provide conclusive evidence of his claim. It’s not your job to refute unfounded claims.

    Our Constitution is based on ‘Innocent until proven guilty.’ The burden of proof is on the accuser. That’s why all lawsuits have been dismissed.

    Obama does not have to prove he was born in Hawaii. The myriad accusers have to prove he was not – which they cannot do. Hence, every crank gets on a internet soapbox, and brays until he gets a few followers.

    That’s the only thing I don’t like about the ‘Net. No one has to go to Union Square and vigorously defend his positions. Cranks used to be called out in public.

    Now we have Chuck Norris and his distaff sidekick on YouTube, rather than the public square. There is a dearth of street preachers. The repartee was invigorating. I miss it.

  41. avatar
    Thomas Brown September 5, 2012 at 8:39 am #

    My apologies to Ellen. I assumed any anti-birther would already know where to find the “missing seal” refutations. They’ve been all over the place. And that “satire won’t work” response just seemed so birfalicious…

    OK. Mea culpa.

    Looks like I need another tattoo. I’ve already got one that says “Donna is Not a Birther”…

  42. avatar
    Sam the Centipede September 5, 2012 at 1:01 pm #

    misha: Our Constitution is based on ‘Innocent until proven guilty.’ The burden of proof is on the accuser. That’s why all lawsuits have been dismissed.

    Sorry to be picky Misha, but I think most of the lawsuits have been dismissed because they’re badly drafted insane garbage: lack of standing, wrong defendants, wrong venue, not ripe, not justiciable, blah blah blah. There’s so much idiocy in their nonsense that the birthers rarely get as far as being told “… and you haven’t proved your substantive point”.

    And anyway, the eligibility of the President is primarily a matter for Congress, not for the courts. As it should be (I think) according to the principle of the separation of powers.

    In a way it’s a shame that there are not more clear smackdowns on the facts because the country seems replete with racist idiots. I can’t see how anybody can think that Arpaio is anything other than a nasty bully, but there are plenty of morons who think he’s great.

  43. avatar
    The Magic M September 6, 2012 at 4:09 am #

    misha: Obama does not have to prove he was born in Hawaii.

    Not to the birthers, besides he already *has* proved it.

    Birther lawsuits don’t fail because they have the burden of proof per se; they fail because they have the burden of proof since Obama has provided sufficient (or at least prima facie) proof of his birthplace (and because evaluating that proof is up to Congress by the Constitution) which the birthers have been unable to counter with substantial evidence to the contrary (because all they have is hearsay – flyers, two Kenyan politicians, posters, edited tapes and other ridiculous stuff).

    Technically, if the Constitution sets a requirement for eligibility, the burden of proof is on the candidate. (But Obama *has* proven where he was born so that doesn’t help the birthers.)
    However there has never been doubt that it is up to Congress alone what they consider sufficient proof. I mean, how has the residency requirement ever been proven “beyond a shadow of a doubt” in the last 200 years? Congress requires an affidavit and that’s it. Nobody goes “but what if the guy is lying?”. And I don’t think you can go to court and demand the President prove to you that he really lived 14 years in the US (while at the same time discounting testimony from his parents as “they’re lying of course”).

  44. avatar
    Tonytheplatypus September 9, 2012 at 7:52 pm #

    Majority Will: For the exact same reason the O is missing in Honolulu in the comparative stamp (Cold Case Posse Exhibit G).

    Link:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/04/canceling-the-cold-case-posse/

    I read the link and there was nothing that explained away how all of the date information on the date stamp on Obama’s SS card was so clear and dark, yet two digits were totally missing. The one part that tried to address the issue said that the whole year was missing on the example provided, yet there was a faint number that looked like a 5. If the whole year was missing on Obama’s SS card, or if the numbers that were there were also worn at least partially, it might be believable. I will concede that the 80 probably was not an 08 upside down, but the missing 19 in 1980 still hasn’t been explained in a convincing way.

  45. avatar
    Majority Will September 9, 2012 at 8:09 pm #

    Tonytheplatypus: I read the link and there was nothing that explained away how all of the date information on the date stamp on Obama’s SS card was so clear and dark, yet two digits were totally missing.The one part that tried to address the issue said that the whole year was missing on the example provided, yet there was a faint number that looked like a 5.If the whole year was missing on Obama’s SS card, or if the numbers that were there were also worn at least partially, it might be believable.I will concede that the 80 probably was not an 08 upside down, but the missing 19 in 1980 still hasn’t been explained in a convincing way.

    You missed my point spectacularly and entirely.

    “For the exact same reason the O is missing in Honolulu in the comparative stamp (Cold Case Posse Exhibit G).”

    You have also replied on the wrong thread. Are you avoiding the replies there? Do those birther bigot goal posts get too heavy?

  46. avatar
    misha September 9, 2012 at 9:47 pm #

    Tonytheplatypus: the missing 19 in 1980 still hasn’t been explained in a convincing way

    When is Arpaio going to present his findings to a grand jury?

  47. avatar
    American Mzungu September 9, 2012 at 10:25 pm #

    Majority Will: Tonytheplatypus: I read the link and there was nothing that explained away how all of the date information on the date stamp on Obama’s SS card was so clear and dark, yet two digits were totally missing.The one part that tried to address the issue said that the whole year was missing on the example provided, yet there was a faint number that looked like a 5.If the whole year was missing on Obama’s SS card, or if the numbers that were there were also worn at least partially, it might be believable.I will concede that the 80 probably was not an 08 upside down, but the missing 19 in 1980 still hasn’t been explained in a convincing way.

    You missed my point spectacularly and entirely.

    Doc figured it out on the other thread. Tony has a reading problem (among many others).

  48. avatar
    gorefan September 9, 2012 at 10:27 pm #

    Tonytheplatypus: but the missing 19 in 1980 still hasn’t been explained in a convincing way.

    Ok Tony, forgetting the stamp for a minute, explain this for me.

    President Obama’s SSR card has a 10 digit DLN and we also have the DLNs for two other people who also registered at the same Post Office in Honolulu.

    Date – JUL 29 1980 DLN – 0897 080 632 (Obama)
    Date – JUL 31 1980 DLN – 0897 080 653 (Oniwa)
    Date – AUG 2 1980 DLN – 0897 080 613 (Henderson)

    So Tony, if President Obama did not register in 1980, how did he get a DLN in the range of other people who did register in 1980?

  49. avatar
    Dave B. September 9, 2012 at 11:20 pm #

    Tonytheplatypus: I read the link and there was nothing that explained away how all of the date information on the date stamp on Obama’s SS card was so clear and dark, yet two digits were totally missing.

    I’ve never read anything that said anybody had actually looked at anything but a copy of “Obama’s SS card” of unknown quality and provenance. And the guy who says he knows so much about it is just a used car salesman. What kind of goofball would try to draw a conclusion of forgery from something like that?

  50. avatar
    Majority Will September 9, 2012 at 11:27 pm #

    American Mzungu: Doc figured it out on the other thread.Tony has a reading problem (among many others).

    If only it was just reading comprehension, there might be hope for these hate consumed, paranoid lunatics.

  51. avatar
    misha September 10, 2012 at 4:46 am #

    Dave B.: And the guy who says he knows so much about it is just a used car salesman.

    Randall Terry sold used cars before starting Operation Rescue. Coincidence?

  52. avatar
    Tonytheplatypus September 10, 2012 at 6:25 pm #

    Majority Will: You missed my point spectacularly and entirely.

    “For the exact same reason the O is missing in Honolulu in the comparative stamp (Cold Case Posse Exhibit G).”

    You have also replied on the wrong thread. Are you avoiding the replies there? Do those birther bigot goal posts get too heavy?

    The other thread was locked and wouldn’t let me post there. As to the link you posted, it did not expain why the “19” was missing in the date stamp on Obama’s SS card. All it did was ask why it was ok for the “O” to be missing in Honolulu, but not the two digits in the year on the stamp. There is a huge difference. The information on the outer ring showed signs of wearing. The stamp would have been used for more than one year, and as long as most information was legible, they would keep using the stamp. The date information was changed to keep current. The year part of the stamp would have been used at most for the current year. If you look at the 80 part of the stamp, it doesn’t look like the numbers were worn at all. What are the odds that two of the numbers would show no major signs of wearing, and the other two would be worn so bad that they wouldn’t leave any trace of the numbers? If all the text on the part of the stamp was missing, then maybe it had not been inked properly, but that is not the case. Giving one example of a possible explanation doesn’t mean that all of a sudden it has been proven that hat is the reason the dates are missing. You still haven’t proven that there was a valid reason for two digits to be gone.

  53. avatar
    Scientist September 10, 2012 at 7:08 pm #

    Tonytheplatypus: You still haven’t proven that there was a valid reason for two digits to be gone

    There is no particular reason for them to be there either, since the “80” on that registration could only refer to 1980 not 1880 or 2080. So the ’19” was unnessecary. You don’t want the government spending money on things that aren’t necessary, do you?

    I will ask you again, but with little hope of getting an answer, why would a forger leave the “19” out? A forger would be working on a single document and have virtually unlimited time and resources at his disposal to do a perfect job. A clerk stamping dozens of forms in a day would be far more prone to carelessness. There is no conclusion that can drawn from the presence or absence of the “19”. But we can draw conslusions from the followiing:

    1. The presence of Obama in the database in 2007.
    2. the fact that Obama had federal student loans, which required a student to have registered for the SS.

    And the conclusion we draw is that Obama registered as required in 1980.

    I note that by contrast his opponent dodged the Vietnam draft, for a war he supported but thought other, lesser mortals should do the actual fighting in, while he supposedlly preached mormonism to the French.

  54. avatar
    misha September 10, 2012 at 7:45 pm #

    Scientist: I note that by contrast his opponent dodged the Vietnam draft, for a war he supported but thought other, lesser mortals should do the actual fighting in, while he supposedlly preached mormonism to the French.

    “Hey Frenchie, stop drinking coffee and wine. It’s a crime against nature. I fart in your general direction.”

    “You foppish American. I’ll stop drinking coffee and wine, when you learn how to drive. N’est-ce pas?”

  55. avatar
    gorefan September 10, 2012 at 7:53 pm #

    Tonytheplatypus: There is a huge difference.

    For it to be a forgery this is what had to happen:

    1) Forger had to obtain a SSR card from the 1980s.

    2) Forger had to get a 10 digit DLN from the 1980s that falls into the range of DLNs for other people who registered in Honolulu within several days of President Obama.

    3) Forger had to get an obsolete round handstamp from Honolulu Makiki Station Post Office.

    4) Forger had to obtain a 10 digit Selective Service number that is in the same range as other people’s Selective Service numbers that were issued in 1980 and processed at the same time as President Obama’s.

    5) Forger had to break into the Selective Service Administrations computers and insert President Obama’s information.

    6) Forger had to break into two Federal data repositories and splice the microfilm copy of the President’s SSR card into the rolls housed at the repositories.

    7) All of this had to be done during the Bush Administration.

    But this same forgery who could do all of that could not find a 19nn stamp!

    You agreed that the 80 is not an upside down 08. Ok, that means the forgery had access to an nn80 plug and cut the first two digits off. What were those two digits? Obviously not 19, why would he cut a 1980 plug and just put in the 80? How about 18? Do you think he found a 1880 plug and cut off the 18? Or as Scientist pointed out, did he get a 2080 plug and cut the 20 off?

    What do you think? What’s your theory of the crime?

    Personally, I think there are a number of things that could be going on, worn stamp, poor ink pick up from the ink pad to the stamp, poor ink transfer from the stamp to the card, and poor black and white copy.

  56. avatar
    Keith September 10, 2012 at 8:01 pm #

    Tonytheplatypus: The stamp would have been used for more than one year, and as long as most information was legible, they would keep using the stamp. The date information was changed to keep current. The year part of the stamp would have been used at most for the current year.

    The ’19’ could have been used for ONE HUNDRED YEARS (in theory) you silly person. That is the point. The century slug would have been used every time those letters on the outer ring were used. EVERY TIME.

    And since the year slug was changed every year, the century slug would have been subject to much damage as it was pried and poked and prodded by tweezers and hairpins and paper clips year after year after year. And sometimes it might have been pushed back in too far or scratched or who knows what?

    Do you not read your own posts before you hit the send button or is it your life’s work to make yourself look foolish?

  57. avatar
    Tonytheplatypus September 10, 2012 at 8:25 pm #

    Keith: The ’19′ could have been used for ONE HUNDRED YEARS (in theory) you silly person. That is the point. The century slug would have been used every time those letters on the outer ring were used. EVERY TIME.

    And since the year slug was changed every year, the century slug would have been subject to much damage as it was pried and poked and prodded by tweezers and hairpins and paper clips year after year after year. And sometimes it might have been pushed back in too far or scratched or who knows what?

    Do you not read your own posts before you hit the send button or is it your life’s work to make yourself look foolish?

    You should look into the issue just a little bit, and you will see how foolish you look. I would ask for someone who agrees with you to explain why you don’t know what you are talking about, just for added impact, but I will save the dramatics. The year part of the stamp has all 4 digits on the same pience of rubber, so it would only be used for 1 year. Thanks for making me look good.

  58. avatar
    Tonytheplatypus September 10, 2012 at 8:30 pm #

    gorefan: For it to be a forgery this is what had to happen:

    1)Forger had to obtain a SSR card from the 1980s.

    2) Forger had to get a 10 digit DLN from the 1980s that falls into the range of DLNs for other people who registered in Honolulu within several days of President Obama.

    3) Forger had to get an obsolete round handstamp from Honolulu Makiki Station Post Office.

    4) Forger had to obtain a 10 digit Selective Service number that is in the same range as other people’s Selective Service numbers that were issued in 1980 and processed at the same time as President Obama’s.

    5) Forger had to break into the Selective Service Administrations computers and insert President Obama’s information.

    6) Forger had to break into two Federal data repositories and splice the microfilm copy of the President’s SSR card into the rolls housed at the repositories.

    7)All of this had to be done during the Bush Administration.

    But this same forgery who could do all of that could not find a 19nn stamp!

    You agreed that the 80 is not an upside down 08.Ok, that means the forgery had access to an nn80 plug and cut the first two digits off.What were those two digits?Obviously not 19, why would he cut a 1980 plug and just put in the 80? How about 18?Do you think he found a 1880 plug and cut off the 18?Or as Scientist pointed out, did he get a 2080 plug and cut the 20 off?

    What do you think?What’s your theory of the crime?

    Personally, I think there are a number of things that could be going on, worn stamp, poor ink pick up from the ink pad to the stamp,poor ink transfer from the stamp to the card, and poor black and white copy.

    Nothing you posted explains the two digit number. I challenged you to provide a compelling explanation for the two difit number. Challenging me to explain how exactly the fraud being committed doesn’t change the fact that you can’t explain away the fact that the stamp only has 2 digits when it should contain 4.

  59. avatar
    American Mzungu September 10, 2012 at 8:37 pm #

    Keith: Do you not read your own posts before you hit the send button or is it your life’s work to make yourself look foolish?

    (Tony. Hint, hint. Your answers are NO and YES)

  60. avatar
    Tonytheplatypus September 10, 2012 at 9:07 pm #

    Scientist: There is no particular reason for them to be there either, since the “80″ on that registration could only refer to 1980 not 1880 or 2080.So the ’19″ was unnessecary.You don’t want the government spending money on things that aren’t necessary, do you?

    I will ask you again, but with little hope of getting an answer, why would aforger leave the “19″ out? A forger would be working on a single document and have virtually unlimited time and resources at his disposal to do a perfect job.A clerk stamping dozens of forms in a day would be far more prone to carelessness.There is no conclusion that can drawn from the presence or absence of the “19″.But we can draw conslusions from the followiing:

    1. The presence of Obama in the database in 2007.
    2. the fact that Obama had federal student loans, which required a student to have registered for the SS.

    And the conclusion we draw is that Obama registered as required in 1980.

    I note that by contrast his opponent dodged the Vietnam draft, for a war he supported but thought other, lesser mortals should do the actual fighting in, while he supposedlly preached mormonism to the French.

    There is a particular reason. Postal stamps had a 4 digit year. The logic for it doesn’t matter. Claiming the other two digits are not necessary and so it doesn’t matter that they are missing is a sad explanation.

    Why do you think a forger would leave off the “19”? My answer is that they couldn’t figure out how to make the stamp have a real looking “19” to go with the “80”. It is possible that prior to his running for the senate, he had the forged document made. The signature and date look almost exactly the same as documents he signed in 2008 & 2010. In a letter he signed dated July 23, 2008, the July looks almost exactly the same. The signature on a bill he signed is very close to the signature on his SS card. Most people’s signatures change significantly from when they are 19 as compared to when they are 50. The fact that his signature looks so close on his SS card to his more recent signatures is a possible indicator that the signature on his SS card was not really from 1980, but closer to 2008, maybe 2000 when he was beginning his political career. That would explain the difficulty in getting the “19” for the stamp, since all the stamps with the year 19 in it would have been destroyed, and 2019 was too far away to get a stamp that could be used to get the 19. It would be very interesting looking at Obama’s signature from 1980 to compare it to the SS card. If Obama had the forged card done in 2000, it would be in the system in 2007. A far as him having to register to get federal student loans, that was not always the case. When he was enrolled at Occidental College from 1979-1981, he could have received federal student loans without registering for Selective Service. Federal loans did not have the Selective Service registration requirement until The Solomon Amendment, which was passed in 1982. Without seeing records, we have no way of knowing what types of loans Obama took out to pay for Columbia and Harvard. It is possible he took out loans that did not require Selective Service registration.

    It is amazing how Mitt Romney’s lack of service suddenly gets brought up when Obama’s shady SS card comes up. Deflect much?

  61. avatar
    Scientist September 10, 2012 at 9:20 pm #

    Tonytheplatypus: There is a particular reason. Postal stamps had a 4 digit year. The logic for it doesn’t matter

    Logic ALWAYS matters, except to birthers.

    Tonytheplatypus: Claiming the other two digits are not necessary and so it doesn’t matter that they are missing is a sad explanation

    It’s actually a TERRIFIC explanation and you have no answer for it.

    Tonytheplatypus: Why do you think a forger would leave off the “19″? My answer is that they couldn’t figure out how to make the stamp have a real looking “19″ to go with the “80″

    It’s a piece of cake to order a “19”. Doc showed several places you could get one. Making it yourself would also be easy. Try again.

    Tonytheplatypus: It is amazing how Mitt Romney’s lack of service suddenly gets brought up when Obama’s shady SS card comes up. Deflect much?

    Not amazing at all. I remember how Bill Clinton was called a draft dodger. At least he opposed the war, which gives some moral weight to his not wanting to fight in it. Mitt and Cheney and Gingrich and a bunch of others supported the war, but refused to fight. Now that is shady. By the time Obama turned 18 there was no draft, so he had no reason not to register, and is not a draft dodger. So Obama comes out smelling like a rose and Mitt is the bad guy again, just like on his taxes. I wonder if when Mitt was iin France, he visited Switzerland?

    4 more years, my friend…

  62. avatar
    Scientist September 10, 2012 at 9:23 pm #

    Tonytheplatypus: Nothing you posted explains the two digit number. I challenged you to provide a compelling explanation for the two difit number. Challenging me to explain how exactly the fraud being committed doesn’t change the fact that you can’t explain away the fact that the stamp only has 2 digits when it should contain 4.

    You say it “should” have 4 digits. I say it is perfectly legal and valid with 2. We deal in “is” here not “should”. Next question.

  63. avatar
    Tonytheplatypus September 10, 2012 at 9:31 pm #

    Scientist: Logic ALWAYS matters, except to birthers.

    It’s actually a TERRIFIC explanation and you have no answer forit.

    It’s a piece of cake to order a “19″.Doc showed severalplaces you could get one.Making it yourself would also be easy.Try again.

    Not amazing at all.I remember how Bill Clinton was called a draft dodger.At least he opposed the war, which gives some moral weight to his not wanting to fight in it.Mitt and Cheney and Gingrich and a bunch of others supported the war, but refused to fight.Now that is shady.By the time Obama turned 18 there was no draft, so he had no reason not to register, and is not a draftdodger.So Obama comes out smelling like a rose and Mitt is the bad guy again, just like on his taxes.I wonder if when Mitt was iin France, he visited Switzerland?

    4 more years, my friend…

    The government requires the 4 digit year. Whether it makes sense or not, the government requires it, so whether or not it makes sense or is logical, it is required. Since it is required, that is why it doesn’t matter if it is logical. Many things the government requires doesn’t make logical sense.That is what I meant by logic didn’t matter.

    Clinton was a draft dodger, as was John Kerry. Kerry applied for several education deferments, but got turned down. To avoid being drafted into the army, he joined the naval reserves. He figured that the North Vietnamese didn’t have much of a navy, so he wouldn’t see combat. He was wrong. For him to spin that he joined to serve his country is as believable as Bush saying he joined the Air National Guard to serve his country.

  64. avatar
    Tonytheplatypus September 10, 2012 at 9:34 pm #

    Scientist: You say it “should” have 4 digits.I say it is perfectly legal and valid with 2.We deal in “is” here not “should”.Next question.

    You are wrong. By law it has to have a 4 digit year. You saying it is legal and valid with a two digit number doesn’t make it so. You are wrong. Next question.

  65. avatar
    Scientist September 10, 2012 at 9:44 pm #

    Tonytheplatypus: Clinton was a draft dodger, as was John Kerry. Kerry applied for several education deferments, but got turned down. To avoid being drafted into the army, he joined the naval reserves. He figured that the North Vietnamese didn’t have much of a navy, so he wouldn’t see combat. He was wrong. For him to spin that he joined to serve his country is as believable as Bush saying he joined the Air National Guard to serve his country.

    No, joining the reserves is not dodging the draft. Kerry wasn’t a draft dodger and neither was Bush. Clinton was, but he opposed the war, which makes dodging the draft far more morally acceptable than for those who supported the war. Mitt supported the war, so his scamming out of going was reprehensible, as was Cheney. You know that. He could have gone to Vietnam, then done his Mormon mission afterwards. Are you seriously defending Romney? Seriously?

    Tonytheplatypus: You are wrong. By law it has to have a 4 digit year. You saying it is legal and valid with a two digit number doesn’t make it so. You are wrong. Next question.

    So are you saying a registration would have been rejected by SSS because it had a 2 digit stamp? I really doubt that anyone would look at it or care. Anyway, Obama was in the SSS database, so obviously it was accepted despite the lack of digits. Try again.

  66. avatar
    Paper September 10, 2012 at 9:45 pm #

    Could you provide a link to the law?

    Tonytheplatypus: You are wrong.By law it has to have a 4 digit year.You saying it is legal and valid with a two digit number doesn’t make it so.You are wrong.Next question.

  67. avatar
    Scientist September 10, 2012 at 9:56 pm #

    Tony is basing his argument on the impossibility of the US Government (Post Office, SSS) doing a sloppy job. An odd position for a right wing birther, to say the least.

  68. avatar
    gorefan September 10, 2012 at 10:16 pm #

    Tonytheplatypus: committed doesn’t change the fact that you can’t explain away the fact that the stamp only has 2 digits when it should contain 4.

    You obviously didn’t read the last paragraph.

  69. avatar
    Rickey September 10, 2012 at 10:27 pm #

    Tonytheplatypus:Kerry applied for several education deferments, but got turned down.To avoid being drafted into the army, he joined the naval reserves.He figured that the North Vietnamese didn’t have much of a navy, so he wouldn’t see combat.He was wrong.For him to spin that he joined to serve his country is as believable as Bush saying he joined the Air National Guard to serve his country.

    Once again you put your ignorance on display.

    Kerry didn’t “join” the Navy Reserve. He enlisted in the regular U.S Navy. He then was selected for Officers’ Candidate School. When he completed OCS and was commissioned as an Ensign, he was automatically transferred to the Navy Reserve. That happened because only graduates of Annapolis could be officers in the regular Navy. All Navy officers who were commissioned through OCS were immediately transferred to the Navy Reserve.

    Once he became an officer, Kerry was assigned to a relatively safe position aboard a guided missile frigate. He then volunteered to serve in Vietnam. His first choice was Swift boats and his second choice was River Patrol Boats. Both were far more dangerous than serving aboard a guided missile frigate.

    I know these things because I was in the Navy four four years in the late 60s. I spent two of those years aboard an aircraft carrier. All but two of the officers I served directly under were members of the Navy Reserve. Would you now care to retract your statement?

  70. avatar
    Keith September 10, 2012 at 10:31 pm #

    Tonytheplatypus: You should look into the issue just a little bit, and you will see how foolish you look. I would ask for someone who agrees with you to explain why you don’t know what you are talking about, just for added impact, but I will save the dramatics.The year part of the stamp has all 4 digits on the same pience of rubber, so it would only be used for 1 year.Thanks for making me look good.

    The date stamps that I used in the late eighties, had split slugs for the century and the year. They were already getting ready for the millennium change. Perhaps Australian banks are just a little bit more technically advanced than the US Gummint.

    But it is true that I don’t remember what the date stamps were like when I was working in local Government in Arizona in the mid-70’s. So your point may be scored. So. given that the date slug may have been 4 digits wide, lets examine how hard it would be to obtain such a date slug.

    Since the (alleged) forgers are connected to the Government and don’t have access to private facilities like the CIA or the Mossad or the KGB or the Government Surplus Office Supplies Warehouse or the local neighborhood injecting molding shop, or a telephone to call around to the various Office Supply stores in town, I guess they’d have to do just like everybody else, and look them up on EBay.

    Gosh that was hard.

    4 BOXS VINTAGE RUBBER STAMP LETTERS AND NUMBERS PICA DATES

    No wonder they couldn’t get a ‘correct’ slug. The damn thing is gonna cost them $25 and they only need to use it once! What a waste of money! Better to just fool everybody with an upside down ’08’. Makes much better sense.

  71. avatar
    Rickey September 10, 2012 at 10:34 pm #

    Scientist:
    Tony is basing his argument on the impossibility of the US Government (Post Office, SSS) doing a sloppy job.An odd position for a right wing birther, to say the least.

    Anyone who has experience working with hand stamps and ink pads knows how easy it is to end up with an incomplete image. The person doing the stamping might not apply the stamp to the ink pad with equal force, or part of the ink pad might have dried out. I have a boxful of letters which were hand-cancelled back in the sixties, and many of them have “missing” letters or digits.

  72. avatar
    Tonytheplatypus September 10, 2012 at 11:21 pm #

    Scientist:
    Tony is basing his argument on the impossibility of the US Government (Post Office, SSS) doing a sloppy job.An odd position for a right wing birther, to say the least.

    Stop putting words in my mouth. I never based my argument on the impossibility of the government doing a sloppy job. Any US Post Office is required to use a post mark with a 4 digit year. The post offices didn’t have any room for discretion, they had to use a 4 digit year. There was no good reason to use a stamp with 4 digits. If their stamp for some reason was missing two digits, or wasn’t printing all 4 digits, they would have had to use a different stamp. Dr. C started a post several months ago regarding this issue. In his post he said that within two days, someone would be able to produce a post mark with a two digit year. I am still waiting. Here is a link to that thread: http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/03/circular-date-stamps-and-obamas-selective-service-registration/

  73. avatar
    Tonytheplatypus September 10, 2012 at 11:49 pm #

    Keith: The date stamps that I used in the late eighties, had split slugs for the century and the year. They were already getting ready for the millennium change. Perhaps Australian banks are just a little bit more technically advanced than the US Gummint.

    But it is true that I don’t remember what the date stamps were like when I was working in local Government in Arizona in the mid-70′s. So your point may be scored. So. given that the date slug may have been 4 digits wide, lets examine how hard it would be to obtain such a date slug.

    Since the (alleged) forgers are connected to the Government and don’t have access to private facilities like the CIA or the Mossad or the KGB or the Government Surplus Office Supplies Warehouse or the local neighborhood injecting molding shop, or a telephone to call around to the various Office Supply stores in town, I guess they’d have to do just like everybody else, and look them up on EBay.

    Gosh that was hard.

    4 BOXS VINTAGE RUBBER STAMP LETTERS AND NUMBERS PICA DATES

    No wonder they couldn’t get a ‘correct’ slug. The damn thing is gonna cost them $25 and they only need to use it once! What a waste of money! Better to just fool everybody with an upside down ’08′. Makes much better sense.

    The forgery wasn’t done in 2012. If it was done in 1999 or 2000, the forger may not have thought about using Ebay to obtain the rubber date stamp. It is also possible that Ebay did not have the exact size letters needed, or that there would be too much space between the numbers if single digits were used instead of a single stamp. I never claimed that I could recreate how the stamp was done, only that there is something very odd about there only being two digits on the date stamp on Obama’s SS card. It is also possible the forger never thought that the SS card would receive any close scrutiny, so they didn’t worry about the year being only two digits. Since there is an anomaly, if you want to defend it, the burden of proof is on you, my proof is that it is only 2 digits and not the required 4.

  74. avatar
    nbc September 11, 2012 at 12:01 am #

    It is also possible the forger never thought that the SS card would receive any close scrutiny, so they didn’t worry about the year being only two digits. Since there is an anomaly, if you want to defend it, the burden of proof is on you, my proof is that it is only 2 digits and not the required 4.

    Why all this about the registration card? We know that the President registered himself properly. The rest is just speculation as to the two digits in the date stamp. Hardly a relevant issue.

  75. avatar
    G September 11, 2012 at 12:16 am #

    AGREED! Such silly grasping at straws and picking at irrelevant nits, by those who are desperate to come up with silly justifications to cover for their internal irrational emotional gut-biases.

    nbc: Why all this about the registration card? We know that the President registered himself properly. The rest is just speculation as to the two digits in the date stamp. Hardly a relevant issue.

  76. avatar
    gorefan September 11, 2012 at 12:18 am #

    Tonytheplatypus: The forgery wasn’t done in 2012. If it was done in 1999 or 2000,

    How did it get into the SSA system? I understand why you don’t want to answer that question and only focus on the date stamp. What good is making a forged SSR card if it sits in a desk drawer in your house. Because there is no logical way for the forged SSR card to get into the system, the 2 digit year is at most an anomaly and maybe not even that. It could be the copy doesn’t show a faint 19 that didn’t get as much ink.

  77. avatar
    Keith September 11, 2012 at 12:39 am #

    Tonytheplatypus: The forgery wasn’t done in 2012.If it was done in 1999 or 2000, the forger may not have thought about using Ebay to obtain the rubber date stamp.It is also possible that Ebay did not have the exact size letters needed, or that there would be too much space between the numbers if single digits were used instead of a single stamp.

    The point, is that the numbers are trivially easy to find today. PIKA stamps were much more pervasive ‘back then’ than they are now. That product photo on EBay shows an earliest date of 2002, who knows what dates are under the sticky label. Probably not 1980 anyway. But there IS a ’19’ as in the 19th day of the month. If they could somehow ‘manufacture’ an ’80’ by cutting a 2008 slug in half and turning it upside down or whatever they did, they could certainly use the number ’19’ from the day of the month set. An upside down ’08’ looks uglier than slightly imperfectly spaced single digits anyway.

    You are suggesting superstar forgers did everything exactly perfect for everything but the minor job of producing a proper forgery and without figuring out that every month has more than 19 days and therefore what every set of slugs they found the ’80’ in has also got a ’19’. Do you have no sense of shame what-so-ever when you let your fantasies be read by other people?

    I never claimed that I could recreate how the stamp was done, only that there is something very odd about there only being two digits on the date stamp on Obama’s SS card.It is also possible the forger never thought that the SS card would receive any close scrutiny, so they didn’t worry about the year being only two digits.Since there is an anomaly, if you want to defend it, the burden of proof is on you, my proof is that it is only 2 digits and not the required 4.

    Your claim is that the 2 digit year hasn’t been explained (to your satisfaction). In fact, several different perfectly reasonable scenarios have been proposed, certainly much more reasonable than your ‘maybe they thought the single digit would be too widely spaced’ rubbish. There is nothing to prove with that one way or the other, there are just too many legitimate ways for it to have happened to prove which one (or combination) actually occurred. Who gives a flying fornication anyway?

    You have also made a claim asserting that “the Government” (that would be the SSA system, I take it) absolutely requires a 4 digit date. Presumably you would claim that the registration would be rejected without it. You have not made any attempt to prove that claim or explain why in the world it would matter to anyone, anyhow, anywhere.

    Until you can prove the ‘Government’ requirement for a 4 digit year on the date stamp impression, speculation about how a 2 digit year got ‘through the system’ is meaningless (and I am trying extra special hard to be polite).

  78. avatar
    LW September 11, 2012 at 1:41 am #

    They weren’t able to produce a “19”, literally the defining two-digit combination of the 20th century, but they were able to find a 40 year old Makiki Station stamper, one of probably fewer than a dozen ever to exist.

  79. avatar
    Majority Will September 11, 2012 at 3:30 am #

    Tonytheplatypus: You are wrong.By law it has to have a 4 digit year.You saying it is legal and valid with a two digit number doesn’t make it so.You are wrong.Next question.

    Source?

    Speaking of sources and fact checking, here’s one you’ll like:

    May 17, 2012

    Miriam Goderich issued the following statement to Political Wire:

    “You’re undoubtedly aware of the brouhaha stirred up by Breitbart about the erroneous statement in a client list Acton & Dystel published in 1991 (for circulation within the publishing industry only) that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. This was nothing more than a fact checking error by me — an agency assistant at the time.

    There was never any information given to us by Obama in any of his correspondence or other communications suggesting in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii.

    I hope you can communicate to your readers that this was a simple mistake and nothing more.”

  80. avatar
    Lupin September 11, 2012 at 3:48 am #

    IMHO John Kerry was/is a hero and a very principled man (albeit not a very good candidate) and what the Right did to him with, for the most part, the complicity of a supine media was a travesty and an abomination.

  81. avatar
    Northland10 September 11, 2012 at 6:50 am #

    Tonytheplatypus: Any US Post Office is required to use a post mark with a 4 digit year. The post offices didn’t have any room for discretion, they had to use a 4 digit year.

    So, you have comparison examples from the same post office at the same time showing that all of the examples have the 4 digit year and only Obama’s is different? How do sing the Sesame Street song, “One of these things is not like the other,” when you only have one of these things? A sample set of one does not evidence make.

    I find it interesting that you believe the Post Office and government can never make a mistake.

  82. avatar
    Scientist September 11, 2012 at 6:50 am #

    Tonytheplatypus: Stop putting words in my mouth. I never based my argument on the impossibility of the government doing a sloppy job. Any US Post Office is required to use a post mark with a 4 digit year. The post offices didn’t have any room for discretion, they had to use a 4 digit year. There was no good reason to use a stamp with 4 digits. If their stamp for some reason was missing two digits, or wasn’t printing all 4 digits, they would have had to use a different stamp.

    The post office is required to promptly deliver all mail to the correct address. Yet sometimes that doesn’t happen. Are you saying that a post office clerk stamping dozens, perhaps 100s of pieces every day is not only super careful with each one and examines each one meticulously to assure there are no missing leters or numbers? And suppose there are? Would he call the registrant back and say, “Sorry, you have to register all over again, because I screwed up the stamp?”. No, I have never heard of that happening. I think it would just get sent through and I doubt the folks at SSS who receive a few million registrations every year would notice the digits on the date stamp (or care).

    Tonytheplatypus: If it was done in 1999 or 2000, the forger may not have thought about using Ebay to obtain the rubber date stamp.

    They would have gone to Staples, though, which existed in 1999 (or so Mitt Romney says). Given that the 20th century was ending, they could probably have gotten a great deal on stamps with “19” in them. So, basically, this “forgery” is Mitt Romney’s doing, IMO.

  83. avatar
    Northland10 September 11, 2012 at 7:11 am #

    Tonytheplatypus: Clinton was a draft dodger, as was John Kerry. Kerry applied for several education deferments, but got turned down. To avoid being drafted into the army, he joined the naval reserves.

    I guess, by you logic, my uncle was a draft dodger because, instead of being drafted, he went to the Air Force Academy. Instead of allowing himself to be drafted to go to war, he died in a crash in Vietnam. When Veteran’s Day and Memorial Day come around, do you use it to honor only those that you agree with politically ,today? Their service in the defense of our liberty is only good if they have the right “ideology?”

    Why do you spit on our veterans? You sir, are no patriot.

  84. avatar
    Lupin September 11, 2012 at 7:56 am #

    Northland10: I guess, by you logic, my uncle was a draft dodger because, instead of being drafted, he went to the Air Force Academy. Instead of allowing himself to be drafted to go to war, he died in a crash in Vietnam. When Veteran’s Day and Memorial Day come around, do you use it to honor only those that you agree with politically ,today? Their service in the defense of our liberty is only good if they have the right “ideology?”

    Why do you spit on our veterans? You sir, are no patriot.

    Tonytheplatypus is a vile, vile person. I dare say platypusses everywhere are ashamed of him.

  85. avatar
    American Mzungu September 11, 2012 at 7:59 am #

    Tonytheplatypus first brought up the topic of the missing “19” on Obama’s Selective Service registration card on the thread “Amazing Fact Found in the National Archives: Birthers Will Believe Anything” on September 9 at 3:56 a.m. He said,

    “I still haven’t seen a valid explanation for the 2 digit date stamp on his Selective Service card. All you champions of facts should be able to find a conclusive explanation for why there are only two digits. Can you provide at least 1 that is reasonable? The worn stamp one doesn’t work, there is no other part of the stamp close to the missing digits that is worn. The explanation that only two digits were required is also not convincing, the two digit requirement had to do with indicia, not postal stamps. Let’s see if any of you can come up with at least one.”

    Board members responded several times, but the thread turned to a discussion of the French citizenship of Washington, Madison and possibly Jefferson. Doc C closed out the thread after stating that there were no authoritative sources that proved Jefferson’s French citizenship.

    Tonytheplatypus, not satisfied to let the topic die, reintroduced the topic of the missing “19” on this thread. Members engage, but Tony then shifts the goalposts in his September 10 post at 6:26 p.m. He now says,

    “Giving one example of a possible explanation doesn’t mean that all of a sudden it has been proven that hat [sic] is the reason the dates are missing. You still haven’t proven that there was a valid reason for two digits to be gone.”

    Members have given him plausible explanations, but Tonytheplatypus now says we have not supplied sufficient PROOF to convince him. He shifts the goal posts after the ball sails through the first location of the goal posts. Classic troll behavior.

    I suggest we rename him TONYTHETROLL.

  86. avatar
    Rickey September 11, 2012 at 10:51 am #

    Northland10: I guess, by you logic, my uncle was a draft dodger because, instead of being drafted, he went to the Air Force Academy.Instead of allowing himself to be drafted to go to war, he died in a crash in Vietnam.When Veteran’s Day and Memorial Day come around, do you use it to honor only those that you agree with politically ,today?Their service in the defense of our liberty is only good if they have the right “ideology?”

    Why do you spit on our veterans? You sir, are no patriot.

    Hear, hear.

    You undoubtedly noticed that Tony continued to ramble on about the date stamp while ignoring the facts which I gave him about Kerry’s enlistment (he still has not responded).

    Tony apparently does not realize (or does not care) that in the sixties all young men were faced with a choice when they became draft-eligible and their student deferments ended. They could wait to be drafted into the Army or the Marines and serve two years on active dury with no say in what duties they would be given. Or they could enlist in the Army for three years of active duty and have some say. Or they could enlist in the Navy, Air Force or Coast Guard with a four-year active duty commitment and perhaps a guarantee of being sent to a service school to learn a specialty.

    The other alternative, of course, was to try (legally or illegally) to avoid military service altogether.

    Tonys assertion that someone who enlisted instead of waiting to be drafted was a “draft dodger” is a reprehensible slur. He should try telling that to the relatives of the enlistees who were killed when the USS Forrestal nearly sank after planes and bombs began to blow up on its flight deck in 1967.

    http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/cv-59/kf670729-02.gif

  87. avatar
    Scientist September 11, 2012 at 11:29 am #

    No one who volunteered, like Kerry, could ever be termed a draft dodger. To say they were is simply ludicrous and offensive.

    But Romney was a draft dodger. Did he dodge legally? Yes, I believe so. Did his father exert influence? Maybe. But, I’m sorry, there was no urgency to his Mormon mission to France. France would have still been there had he done his miltary service first. So Romney was a draft dodger. And, moreover, he supported the war in Vietnam, which makes his dodging much less understandable and justifiable than those who dodged the draft while opposing the war.

    So, Tony, we know that Obama registered for the draft. But, suppose he hadn’t-he still wouldn’t be a draft dodger, because there was no draft and no war when he 18. So he beats Romney either way.

  88. avatar
    Thomas Brown September 11, 2012 at 5:27 pm #

    The Platypus is a Monotreme.

    From Wikipedia:

    “The key anatomical difference between monotremes and other mammals is the one that gave them their name; monotreme means ‘single opening’ in Greek and comes from the fact that their urinary, defecatory, and reproductive systems all open into a single duct, the cloaca. This structure is very similar to the one found in reptiles. Monotremes and marsupials have a single cloaca (though marsupials also have a separate genital tract), while placental mammal females have separate openings for reproduction, urination, and defecation: the vagina, the urethra, and the anus.”

    But I suppose that’s more information about Tony the Monotreme than any of us really wanted to know.

    Not that there’s anything wrong with that.