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Universe-shattering investigation revealed in court testimony Friday

It was somewhat of an anticlimax when Chief Deputy Jerry Sheridan revealed in federal court Friday details of the “universe shattering” investigation Mike Zullo hinted about a year and a half ago. We already knew much of the story. Let’s view the facts chronologically.

Mike Zullo was the one who exposed the universe-shattering investigation in November, 2013. Carl Gallups tweeted:

Zullo spoke to the Surprise Arizona Tea Party Patriots about that time. Sharon Rondeau interviewed an attendee:

Zullo “said that the investigation that they started ‘turned very dark…’

We can place a proximate time on the start of the investigation from a confidential informant inside the Sheriff’s Office. Stephen Lemons of the Phoenix New Times newspaper wrote (in June 2014) that he had discovered:

My sources — one of whom is a former detective with the MCSO’s Special Investigations Division and is well-acquainted with SID and those in it — say Anglin and Mackiewicz were involved in an odd investigation dating back to October 2013.

Zullo, Anglin and Mackiewicz were the team working on the universe shattering investigation of some really deep, dark stuff. Zullo himself confirmed this the following February, 2014, that two MSCO deputies were involved in the secret investigation with Zullo. Zullo said:

You’re correct, Carl. I don’t know how this is all gonna play out. I know that the criminal investigation that we’re working on now, Sheriff Arpaio has dedicated resources in two full-time Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office detectives. These are seasoned pros that are working this. These are the guys that go hunt down the really bad guys.

Notice that Zullo said “we” on the Carl Gallups radio show, and for that story I refer readers to Mitch Martinson’s February 10, 2014, article at Arizona’s Politics, “BREAKING: MCSO Confirms Sheriff Arpaio Now Has 2 FT Detectives Working On Investigation Related To President Obama Birth Certificate Investigation.” Zullo had made the claim of the two deputies, and Martinson got confirmation from the Maricopa County Sheriffs Office, who had referred Martinson to Zullo for more information:

We have two Sheriff’s detectives assigned to look into other issues surrounding the birth certificate, however they are not investigating the birth certificate issue itself.

But then the Sheriffs Office walked back that confirmation, correcting it to say:

MCSO Lt. Brandon Jones states that he “was misinformed” when he had confirmed the information earlier.  He now states that “The detectives are not working on anything regarding the birth certificate. Not even surrounding. Mr. Zullo was incorrect, they are working on other sensitive cases not even related.”

I glean two facts from this series of statements: 1) Two deputies were working on a sensitive investigation with Mike Zullo was involved and 2) it had nothing to do with Obama’s identity documents.

Now, to the investigation.

Stephen Lemons of the Phoenix New Times uncovered much of the story in June of 2014. He disclosed that a notorious scammer, Dennis Montgomery, was the confidential informant driving the investigation. Montgomery bilked the Pentagon out of millions with claims that he had computer software that could determine the geographic coordinates of terrorist attacks using bar codes he claimed to find in noise from Al Jazeera TV broadcasts.

Starting around the time of that disclosure, we heard not a single word more from Zullo about the universe-shattering information and the deep dark investigation. The scam had been exposed.

Now for what was disclosed in court:

Deputy Sheridan, himself a subject of the contempt hearing, confirmed what Sheriff Arpaio said Thursday about the Seattle scammer-sourced investigation, but added (as reported by Lemons at the Phoenix New Times):

The chief deputy initially told the court, under questioning by defendants’ attorney Michelle Iafrate, that Montgomery had info about “computer tampering crimes” and purported to have evidence that the CIA had “hacked into 50,000 bank accounts in Maricopa County, and had the names and dollar amounts.”

and

Montgomery told them he had data left over from his time doing work for the government, which the pseudo-guru promised he could “mine” with “super computers.”

So there you have it (and read the Lemons article for more detail). Scammer Montgomery claimed that he had data that, with the help of super computers,” could dig out secret information tying the CIA, the Justice Department and the federal courts in a grand criminal conspiracy. This was to be the universe-shattering story that Zullo couldn’t keep in his pants.

What happened to the investigation? Sheridan tells us the rest of the story:

But Montgomery ultimately gave them nothing usable.

“We finally realized he was stringing us along,” said Sheridan.

Zullo spent time, along with MCSO deputies in Seattle in a condo they rented for Montgomery. It has been estimated that between $500,000 and $1,000,000 in public funds were wasted for Montgomery, the deputies, Zullo, the condo and computer equipment. It was all a con job, but Sheriff Joe and Mike Zullo fell for it.

The great universe-shattering investigation was just a scam.

Further reading:

PS: I had previously thought that Montgomery had offered some birther tidbit to entice Zullo alongside his attempt to find dirt on Eric Holder for Arpaio. There is no justification for this speculation. The investigation as disclosed by Sheridan fits what Zullo said and did. It was just me and the birthers who jumped to the conclusion that Zullo said something that he really didn’t say.

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127 Responses to Universe-shattering investigation revealed in court testimony Friday

  1. avatar
    Slartibartfast April 26, 2015 at 2:36 pm #

    Doc,

    That’s a nice bit of speculative reasoning. I can’t imagine a better explanation of what Zullo said when and why. If only the birthers could be made to understand that this was what they were dreaming about and that it will never come to fruition now.

  2. avatar
    Nancy R Owens April 26, 2015 at 3:14 pm #

    *yawn*

    I just had to get that out of the way.

    Unless, you’ve got something with more exact details, Doc.

    No offense, but, I’ve seen this baton get passed around time and time again where the Obama forged birth certificate documents are concerned.

  3. avatar
    Dave April 26, 2015 at 3:26 pm #

    Apparently Montgomery understood (as birthers generally do not) that his story had to include an angle that was within Arpaio’s jurisdiction — in this case, bank accounts in the county.

  4. avatar
    HistorianDude April 26, 2015 at 4:12 pm #

    When Lawrence Sellin was appearing on the Peter Boyles show, he asserted that he had been told (by Zullo IIRC) that the birth certificate investigation was in the process of being shut down in October of 2013 when the “new information” that prompted the “second criminal investigation” came to the MCSO’s attention. Zullo’s own interest in the birth certificate investigation seemed completely dead at that point. On the October 12, 2013 Freedom Friday Zullo completely freaked out Gallups with this comment:

    Let me say something Carl. You know we have been focused on this issue and, you know, your listeners, everybody is so intently focused on the birth certificate. And I just really want to make it clear. The birth certificate as it’s, in the form that it is now, a PDF file is absolutely of no evidentiary value. It’s useless. And it doesn’t really matter to an extent other than from a conspiratorial standpoint in the commission of felonies. It doesn’t matter about all these anomalies because this thing has no evidentiary value. It is nothing. It is absolutely nothing, and the American people were shown absolutely nothing.

    At that point it was evident to anybody paying attention that the Xerox Workflow had killed the Posse’s investigation of the birth certificate. And then… the “second criminal investigation” commenced.

    It seems clear to me that any impression of a connection between the two “investigations” was absolutely intentional on Zullo’s part, affording him cover for the untimely death of the BC investigation.

    I’m going to go back and review a few of the old audio recordings and clarify the details.

  5. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater April 26, 2015 at 4:22 pm #

    Nancy R Owens: No offense, but, I’ve seen this baton get passed around time and time again where the Obama forged birth certificate documents are concerned.

    There were no forged documents.

  6. avatar
    HistorianDude April 26, 2015 at 4:53 pm #

    Lawrence Selin on the Peter Boy;es Shw, September 22, 2014:

    I listened to the program and Carl Gallups didn’t say anything new. What he did say is something that’s well known, that was already well known, is that there are two lines of investigation. The first line comes out of the birth certificate, the original birth certificate investigation, which they… a large amount of the information that they looked at was already provided by people out there who have been investigating, many of whom you’ve had on your program. And they had two press conferences a couple years ago, you know. Nothing came out of it in terms of indictments, arrests or prosecutions. And then it continued and it was ready to be dropped last fall when allegedly a whistleblower came around and started giving them information about… that it might have been produced on government facilities, on government computers, and that John Brennan the CIA director may have been supervising this. Now the second line of investigation which Carl Gallups touched on really has little or nothing to do with birtherism. I believe it came out of the information they got from the whistleblower, and it deals more in terms of penetration of the sheriff’s office in Maricopa County in Arizona, and that there are six or more crimes involved. And this is why they call it a criminal investigation, and it has to do with as I understand it with the Department of Justice, at least one other Federal agency, and it may be connected back to the White House. So again, this has little or nothing to do with birtherism. But it is a potential crime and they’re investigating it. Now whether this rises to the level of the IRS scandal or the Benghazi scandal I think we’ll have to wait and see.

  7. avatar
    jtmunkus April 26, 2015 at 7:10 pm #

    ‘Round here, universe still looks okay.

    Poor birfers.

  8. avatar
    gorefan April 26, 2015 at 7:17 pm #

    HistorianDude:

    At that point it was evident to anybody paying attention that the Xerox Workflow had killed the Posse’s investigation of the birth certificate. And then… the “second criminal investigation” commenced.

    It was on the December 6th, 2013 Mike Volin show that Mark Gillar said he was a part time researcher for the CCP. And he said that they were never more excited or their morale higher. It was also about that time he came out with the video about we know who, we know why … People are going to jail.

  9. avatar
    Bonsall Obot April 26, 2015 at 7:46 pm #

    Lawrence Sellin:

    Now whether this rises to the level of the IRS scandal or the Benghazi scandal I think we’ll have to wait and see.

    I think we can safely say it has done exactly that, Herr Colonel. Just not in the way you’d hoped, for all three.

  10. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG April 26, 2015 at 8:20 pm #

    Oh that was some good reading, Doc!
    I bet you I can already predict the aggregate birther response “This means nothing!”

  11. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater April 26, 2015 at 8:24 pm #

    gorefan: It was on the December 6th, 2013 Mike Volin show that Mark Gillar said he was a part time researcher for the CCP.And he said that they were never more excited or their morale higher.It was also about that time he came out with the video about we know who, we know why … People are going to jail.

    We also got Mark Gillar to admit on this site that he was being paid by the CCP at least for the videos he produced. It wouldn’t surprise me if he was also paid for his “part time research”

  12. avatar
    gorefan April 26, 2015 at 8:58 pm #

    Here is Mark’s December 8th, 2013 video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyHJ5HJsKmk

    And one from December 26th, 2013

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhrNwYt9oU0

    I think they really thought they were on to something. They were true believers in what Montgomery told them.

  13. avatar
    Pete April 26, 2015 at 9:39 pm #

    “It has been estimated that between $500,000 and $1,000,000 in public funds were wasted for Montgomery, the deputies, Zullo, the condo and computer equipment.”

    Not that that’s really anything compared to the millions upon millions wasted by Mr. Arpaio in lawsuit settlements.

    More millions of which are soon to come.

  14. avatar
    Notorial Dissent April 26, 2015 at 10:57 pm #

    Ouch!!! That’s a whole lot more money than I had expected, but just goes to show you can’t keep a good con down. I think that is pretty close to the chain of events as far as what was going on, I still think we’re missing a couple of bits here and there, but I’m sure it will all come out with the rest of the dirty laundry.

  15. avatar
    john April 26, 2015 at 11:39 pm #

    The Montgomery story doesn’t make much sense. Why would the MCSO even go to Dennis Montgomery when it was known he was one biggest con artists who ever lived. Obviously his CIA Con job was no secret.

  16. avatar
    Rickey April 26, 2015 at 11:41 pm #

    It’s worth noting that between November and March neither Gallups nor Zullo ever did or said anything to disabuse birthers of the notion that the “universe-shattering information” was going to be about Obama’s eligibility.

    Zullo and Arpaio were being strung along by Montgomery, and in turn Zullo and Arpaio were stringing along the birthers. They all deserved one another.

  17. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater April 26, 2015 at 11:51 pm #

    john:
    The Montgomery story doesn’t make much sense.Why would the MCSO even go to Dennis Montgomery when it was known he was one biggest con artists who ever lived.Obviously his CIA Con job was no secret.

    Same reason they went to Jerome Corsi who was a known scumbag and smear merchant. They’re not very good judges of character. It’s the same reason they put a used car salesman as the head of the CCP

  18. avatar
    J.D. Sue April 26, 2015 at 11:56 pm #

    john: Why would the MCSO even go to Dennis Montgomery when it was known he was one biggest con artists who ever lived.

    —-

    That would be a good question to ask them when the hearing resumes in June.

  19. avatar
    Rickey April 27, 2015 at 12:13 am #

    john:
    The Montgomery story doesn’t make much sense.Why would the MCSO even go to Dennis Montgomery when it was known he was one biggest con artists who ever lived.Obviously his CIA Con job was no secret.

    This should be a wake-up call to you about the incompetence of Zullo and Arpaio. The entire CCP “investigation” into Obama’s birth certificate never made any sense. Zullo never did any real investigation. All he did was repackage the garbage which Jerome Corsi had given him.

    Why dd you suppose that Corsi is no longer birthing? It was never about proving that Obama isn’t eligible, because Corsi and Farah knew that they would never be able to do that. It was all about keeping Obama from being re-elected in 2012. When they failed at that, they lost all interest in the birth certificate.

  20. avatar
    Notorial Dissent April 27, 2015 at 12:19 am #

    John, Denny boy has a long long history of misbehavior, that’s a polite word for fraud, going back well before he took the CIA for a ride. If Defective Zullo had actually been even remotely competent or what he claimed to be, he would have run a criminal background check, you know those things he was always threatening people with and couldn’t legally have done since he really wasn’t part of law enforcement, and would have found all sorts of screaming red flags that a sensible person would then have run from, but HE DIDN’T!!!! And for that matter neither apparently did anyone at MCSO, who could have and should have, which says a lot about their operation too. Now admittedly, the gov’t tried really hard to smother anything about their little adventure with Denny since he made major fools out of their intelligence gathering arm, but the criminal record is still there to be seen otherwise.

  21. avatar
    john April 27, 2015 at 12:20 am #

    Montgomery is a bizarre character. Why would anyone spends billions of dollars on a a software system that doesn’t work and why isn’t Montgomery is prison for fraud.

  22. avatar
    Slartibartfast April 27, 2015 at 12:37 am #

    I think Nancy’s comment shows a fundamental flaw in the thinking of conspiracists. Doc presented a theory that explains all of the available evidence in a very plausible way (in other words, a viable hypothesis). Rather than present a more reasonable theory or at least a plausible alternative, she complains about the lack of “exact details”—the sort of factoids that conspiracists like to consider out of context so that they don’t have to acknowledge that their pet theory de jour contradicts other established facts.

    Nancy,

    Either find evidence that contradicts Doc’s theory (stuff you make up is not evidence, by the way) or acknowledge that it is possible that he is right. Or just come up with another crazy theory—that always convinces people.

    Nancy R Owens:
    *yawn*

    I just had to get that out of the way.

    Unless, you’ve got something with more exact details, Doc.

    No offense, but, I’ve seen this baton get passed around time and time again where the Obama forged birth certificate documents are concerned.

  23. avatar
    Keith April 27, 2015 at 1:14 am #

    john:
    Montgomery is a bizarre character.Why would anyone spends billions of dollars on a a software system that doesn’t work and why isn’t Montgomery is prison for fraud.

    Interesting.

    You said something that actually makes sense in the real world!

    Congratulations.

  24. avatar
    Lupin April 27, 2015 at 2:46 am #

    john:
    The Montgomery story doesn’t make much sense.Why would the MCSO even go to Dennis Montgomery when it was known he was one biggest con artists who ever lived.Obviously his CIA Con job was no secret.

    Because they’re imbeciles.

    SATSQ.

  25. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) April 27, 2015 at 4:38 am #

    It was somewhat of an anticlimax

    It’s the finale of LOST all over again. 😉

    Montgomery told them he had data left over from his time doing work for the government, which the pseudo-guru promised he could “mine” with “super computers.”

    So this resolves the issue we had on the other thread where the question was how Montgomery was able to convince Arpaio he could “hack into the DOJ” – he never claimed that but used a less suspicious claim for his scam.

    john: Why would the MCSO even go to Dennis Montgomery when it was known he was one biggest con artists who ever lived. Obviously his CIA Con job was no secret.

    First, it was Montgomery who went to them, wasn’t it?

    Second, when the mark is desperate to find information and the con artist claims he can give it, the mark is much more likely to suspend disbelief, even if he knows the guy was once exposed as a scammer.
    You wouldn’t believe how many people seek “cancer treatments” from physicians who had their license revoked, simply because they promise a cure where nobody else could offer one.
    Likewise, if you’re desperate to find the one “cure” for the black guy’s presidency, you likely think “I don’t care if this guy is a scammer or a mass murderer as long as he gives me what I need”. And that’s how your brain rationalizes ignoring the fact that “scammer” doesn’t just mean “bad person” but “totally untrustworthy person”.

  26. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater April 27, 2015 at 7:31 am #

    john:
    Montgomery is a bizarre character.Why would anyone spends billions of dollars on a a software system that doesn’t work and why isn’t Montgomery is prison for fraud.

    Why do you continue to be a birther when every thing you’ve been told by the birther movement has been false.

  27. avatar
    The European April 27, 2015 at 8:00 am #

    Doc, there is another link between Arpaio and Montgomery:

    the infamous lawyer Larry Klayman AKA KKKLayman (read about him touching his children here:)

    http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/docs/pdf/8/2012/2012-ohio-3354.pdf

    was and is their lawyer in several bizarre litigations.

  28. avatar
    Curious George April 27, 2015 at 8:00 am #

    Dr C,
    “The great universe-shattering investigation was just a scam.”

    Just like the entire investimagination was a scam.

  29. avatar
    The European April 27, 2015 at 8:04 am #

    john:
    Montgomery is a bizarre character.Why would anyone spends billions of dollars on a a software system that doesn’t work and why isn’t Montgomery is prison for fraud.

    Keith: Interesting.

    You said something that actually makes sense in the real world!

    Congratulations.

    i
    Why Montgomery is not in prison is the most interesting question in this yarn. Too embarasssing for too many people?

  30. avatar
    Bob April 27, 2015 at 8:47 am #

    Scammers, like Montgomery, are good at getting people to give them money while not actually promising anything in return or having a contract. The money, apartment, computers etc were gifts. Receiving a gift isn’t illegal.

    He’s an expert at employing weasel words. He’s a grifter and this was a “long con.”

  31. avatar
    Reality Check April 27, 2015 at 9:01 am #

    As Doc wrote in this article the connection to Montgomery was probably through Jerome Corsi and WND. Joe Arpaio, Mike Zullo, and Tim Blixseth met at the Sheriff’s offices on the 19th floor of the Wells Fargo building in Phoenix as early as June 2012. I believe Corsi was also there. Blixeth was Montgomery’s software business partner. WND had taken up Blixeth’s crusade against Credit Suisse AG and Eric Holder over a land deal gone bad. Blixeth claimed Holder had blocked prosecution of Credit Suisse.

    I think that this eventually evolved into a deal where Arpaio and Montgomery could go after their enemies using Montgomery’s computer savvy (real or imagined) and Joe’s CI (Confidential Informer) untraceable slush fund. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear Blixeth’s name turn up at some point.

    john:
    The Montgomery story doesn’t make much sense.Why would the MCSO even go to Dennis Montgomery when it was known he was one biggest con artists who ever lived.Obviously his CIA Con job was no secret.

  32. avatar
    Reality Check April 27, 2015 at 9:22 am #

    Exactly, Montgomery got in through Cheney’s people IIRC. This was a huge embarrassment. A prosecution would have aired too much dirty laundry. This is exactly what is going on with Arpaio. They wanted this to all go away quietly.

    The European: Why Montgomery is not in prison is the most interesting question in this yarn. Too embarasssing for too many people?

  33. avatar
    Arthur April 27, 2015 at 9:46 am #

    Ah, the old “Why?” question. Now you know how rational people feel. We’ve been asking the same thing for seven years:

    Why did birthers put their trust in foolish and duplicitous lawyers like Orly Taitz? Phil Berg? Mario Appuzo? Leo Donofrio? Larry Klayman? Etc.

    Why do birthers believe in clearly false and discredited misinterpretations of law?

    Why, after over 200 failed law suits, have the birthers learned nothing about the pointlessness and worthlessness of their claims?

    Why do birthers trust in websites like Birther Report? WND? Post and Email? Etc.

    Why do birthers lionize proven liars like Carl Gallups, Mike Zullo, Joe Arpaio?

    Why do birthers celebrate vile internet posters like Falcon and B.S.E.?

    Why do birthers believe anything negative that’s said about Obama, no matter how ludicrous, but rarely acknowledge the unenviable record of lies, corruption, and fraud within their own ranks,.

    Why have YOU not abandoned your faith in birtherism?

    I think the answer is hate. You, John, and others like you, hate Obama so viscerally that you eagerly suspend logic and reason to feed and justify your hate. The same thing is true of Arpaio and company. Hatred clouds reason and encourages bigoted thoughts and injudicious action. Without hate, birtherism would never have gotten off the ground.

    john: Why would the MCSO even go to Dennis Montgomery when it was known he was one biggest con artists who ever lived.

  34. avatar
    bgansel9 April 27, 2015 at 10:05 am #

    “It has been estimated that between $500,000 and $1,000,000” – as a Maricopa County resident, I think all county taxpayers have a right to see an itemized statement of these costs.

  35. avatar
    bgansel9 April 27, 2015 at 10:07 am #

    Nancy R Owens: *yawn*

    Sorry, your name wasn’t in it, so I can understand your lack of interest.

  36. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) April 27, 2015 at 10:14 am #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Why do you continue to be a birther when every thing you’ve been told by the birther movement has been false.

    Maybe he belongs to the “just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean nobody’s following you” school of thought. 😉

    I.e. “just because all birthers are racist idiots, it doesn’t mean Obama is eligible”. Or something.

    bgansel9: Sorry, your name wasn’t in it, so I can understand your lack of interest.

    Poor Nance, she killed so many people but nobody’s interested in her because she didn’t scam Arpaio. 😉

  37. avatar
    The European April 27, 2015 at 10:47 am #

    Reality Check:
    Exactly, Montgomery got in through Cheney’s people IIRC. This was a huge embarrassment. A prosecution would have aired too much dirty laundry. This is exactly what is going on with Arpaio. They wanted this to all go away quietly.

    RC, that is no answer. Cheney is out of power how long now? Holder is in charge of the DOJ for quite a while already. Who in the CIA has to be protected?

  38. avatar
    bgansel9 April 27, 2015 at 11:03 am #

    The European: Cheney is out of power how long now?

    CIA agents work history straddles multiple presidents (a person in the CIA doesn’t leave their position just because of a switch in the presidency), unless their name is Valerie Plame.

  39. avatar
    Rickey April 27, 2015 at 11:15 am #

    The European:
    .
    Why Montgomery is not in prison is the most interesting question in this yarn. Too embarassing for too many people?

    Certainly Arpaio wasn’t about to sue Montgomery. A lawsuit would have shined light on a fiasco which Arpaio surely wanted to sweep under a rug.

  40. avatar
    Notorial Dissent April 27, 2015 at 11:28 am #

    The CIA is not known for airing its dirty laundry and stupid mistakes in the public arena if it can at all help it. Taking Montgomery to trial, despite what I figure had to have been a literal bushel basket of chargeable acts would have exposed them to public scrutiny, and let’s not forget well deserved ridicule, and that is something they wouldn’t have wanted at all, and neither would that administration. It would also have exposed either accidentally or unintentionally other activities that they didn’t want aired, and so they just tried to pretend it didn’t happen. Didn’t really work all that well for them as it eventually got out, but didn’t at the time, or so I understand. The thing about a really good con, is that if you con the right people, the last thing they are going to want to do is end up in court themselves, so charges usually aren’t pressed, and it would seem Montgomery was good at picking his marks, which is why he isn’t in jail as he so richly deserves. He certainly had the Shurf and company pegged. Despite having grifted them out of what $1.5M being the latest total I’ve seen, nary a charge or complaint from that quarter, although that may change now that the county can’t pretend they don’t know what is going on, adn are goign to be in for some serious expenses as well. Tying in with the Shurf may well turn out to be an expensive mistake for Montgomery before this is all over and done with.

  41. avatar
    Reality Check April 27, 2015 at 11:52 am #

    Several things. The statute of limitations may have expired by the time Cheney left office in January 2009. I believe the purchases from Montgomery go back to 2003. As ND pointed out government agencies and especially the CIA would be loathe to air their dirty laundry to go after a guy who in the grand scheme of things is small potatoes. In Risen’s book he said the Justice department not only didn’t prosecute Montgomery they actively tried to suppress any information about the scheme from being released. Fraud is not an easy crime to prove. Montgomery could always claim he thought the software would work or actually did work. Look at the lawsuit for libel that Montgomery filed against James Risen and his publisher for an idea of how that might have gone.

    The European: RC, that is no answer. Cheney is out of power how long now? Holder is in charge of the DOJ for quite a while already. Who in the CIA has to be protected?

  42. avatar
    Benji Franklin April 27, 2015 at 12:50 pm #

    Arthur: Hatred clouds reason and encourages bigoted thoughts and injudicious action. Without hate, birtherism would never have gotten off the ground.

    I think you are so right, and blind hatred is also sustainable, lasting indefinitely, and even gaining momentum from the frustrating lack of success the lunatic Birther initiatives produce.

  43. avatar
    Curious George April 27, 2015 at 1:12 pm #

    The experts like Karl Giddie-Yap, Mark Gillyard, Mike Violin, who demand that their opponents be “vetted” certainly could have helped Corporal ZooLow by doing a simple internet search for Montgomery. Why didn’t Corporal ZooLow do his own search and “vet” Montgomery?

    By special request, from Joe, this song is dedicated to Birthers across America.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ARUwZlDqrI&feature=player_embedded

  44. avatar
    Krosis April 27, 2015 at 2:00 pm #

    I’ve got a new birther theory! Montgomery was an Obama agent deliberately sent to mislead and confuse Arpaio and the Cold Case Posse. This theory, I think, has the potential to be universe-shattering!

  45. avatar
    Notorial Dissent April 27, 2015 at 3:24 pm #

    Do we have any evidence that the Corporal even knows how to turn on a computer, let alone use one? I’m betting he has trouble working a fax/copier as we know for a fact that one(the workstation) certainly bit him in the butt. I’d suspect he was at least as tech savvy as the Shur and Depty Bozo.

    Curious George:
    The experts like Karl Giddie-Yap, Mark Gillyard, Mike Violin, who demand that their opponents be “vetted” certainly could have helped Corporal ZooLow by doing a simple internet search for Montgomery.Why didn’t Corporal ZooLow do his own search and “vet” Montgomery?

    By special request, from Joe,this song is dedicated to Birthers across America.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ARUwZlDqrI&feature=player_embedded

  46. avatar
    john April 27, 2015 at 5:40 pm #

    Doesn’t Doug Voygt know Dennis Montgomery? I wonder what Montgomery’s take on the birth certificate is if he is supposed to be this super hacker computer expert. Maybe they will Dennis Montgomery on Mike Violin’s Where’s the Birth Certificate Radio show.

  47. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 27, 2015 at 6:01 pm #

    While the two live relatively close to each other, I have never seen anything to suggest that they have met.

    john: Doesn’t Doug Voygt know Dennis Montgomery?

  48. avatar
    Pete April 27, 2015 at 8:12 pm #

    john:
    The Montgomery story doesn’t make much sense.Why would the MCSO even go to Dennis Montgomery when it was known he was one biggest con artists who ever lived.

    Maybe because Sheriff Arpaio and Mike Zullo are both highly incompetent?

  49. avatar
    Pete April 27, 2015 at 8:19 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Why do you continue to be a birther when every thing you’ve been told by the birther movement has been false.

    Really.

  50. avatar
    Pete April 27, 2015 at 8:27 pm #

    I’ll put it another way.

    John, by now you HAVE to be well aware that literally EVERYTHING you were ever told by birthers (except for stuff like “My name is Mike Zullo”) is totally, 100%, lies and bullsh*t.

    So why do you continue to support birtherism? If you don’t like Obama, fine. If you think his policies are bad for America, fine. But why continue the birther charade?

  51. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater April 27, 2015 at 8:59 pm #

    john:
    Doesn’t Doug Voygt know Dennis Montgomery?I wonder what Montgomery’s take on the birth certificate is if he is supposed to be this super hacker computer expert.Maybe they will Dennis Montgomery on Mike Violin’s Where’s the Birth Certificate Radio show.

    Yes that’s a sure way to increase credibility have a known scammer on your show.

  52. avatar
    Notorial Dissent April 27, 2015 at 9:03 pm #

    Why, hasn’t he had Zullo on before? Query, how do you increase something you do not have and will never have?

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Yes that’s a sure way to increase credibility have a known scammer on your show.

  53. avatar
    Slartibartfast April 27, 2015 at 9:43 pm #

    These people have credibility in the only place they need it—the eyes of their marks.

    Notorial Dissent:
    Why, hasn’t he had Zullo on before?Query, how do you increase something you do not have and will never have?

  54. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG April 27, 2015 at 10:41 pm #

    The A/Z sham of an investigation is pretty much the black knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. It’s been hopelessly hacked to pieces, but still insists that it is in top fighting form.

  55. avatar
    Benji Franklin April 27, 2015 at 10:47 pm #

    john: Maybe they will Dennis Montgomery on Mike Violin’s Where’s the Birth Certificate Radio show.

    John, don’t expect to hear ANY satisfactory explanatory statement from Zoo Low, Arpaio, or Gallups for two or three years from now, because they continue to remain incapable of telling the truth, and now they won’t know what lies are safe to tell, until they see where official courtroom testimony goes in revealing what they were really doing and NOT DOING!

    Yes, John, after 4 years of draggin’ their feet on revealing their evidence, get ready for the CCP/Gallups information highway, to SLOW DOWN!

    Meanwhile, as has already started with Montgomery et al, you’ll probably continue to see more proof of their (Birther’s) apalling trail of prior lies (to Birthers in particular) seeping out of the courtroom procedures. How does it feel to be in the cheering section of the lying gang who couldn’t think straight, John?

  56. avatar
    Curious George April 27, 2015 at 11:36 pm #

    Benji Franklin

    “How does it feel to be in the cheering section of the lying gang who couldn’t think straight, John?”

    …..the agony of defeat.

  57. avatar
    Curious George April 28, 2015 at 12:09 am #

    Arpaio, a “domestic enemy.”

    http://www.12news.com/media/cinematic/video/26487591/exclusive-former-judge-rips-arpaio/

  58. avatar
    Kate April 28, 2015 at 1:09 am #

    I really wish Arpaio was at least 20 years younger than he is. I’ve the feeling that no matter what happens, in the end, he’ll get off easy, with a slap on the wrist and his resignation at worst. Whatever money he is made to pay, if any, will probably be replaced from donations from the idiots who still blindly believe in him.

  59. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG April 28, 2015 at 1:29 am #

    Kate:
    I really wish Arpaio was at least 20 years younger than he is.I’ve the feeling that no matter what happens, in the end, he’ll get off easy, with a slap on the wrist and his resignation at worst.Whatever money he is made to pay, if any, will probably be replaced from donations from the idiots who still blindly believe in him.

    His legacy is forever tarnished. Even if he gets off easy, he won’t ride off into the sunset, fondly remembered as “America’s Toughest Sheriff”. He’ll fade into obscurity, rightfully shamed and vilified. Most likely, he’ll be remembered as a mean old crook, who’s stay in this life was far far too long.

    Curious George:
    Arpaio, a “domestic enemy.”

    http://www.12news.com/media/cinematic/video/26487591/exclusive-former-judge-rips-arpaio/

    Wow, and since birthers hold the opinions of former-this and ex-that in such high regard, that’s gotta feel like a punch in the kidney, to the denizens of BR.

  60. avatar
    James M April 28, 2015 at 1:44 am #

    Pete: But why continue the birther charade?

    There’s no reward for them in giving up. Clinging to the fringe of the birther movement carries little risk for someone who successfully remains anonymous, but think of the rewards if it turns out the birthers were right all along. You don’t have to be a true believer, just the kind of gambler who understands why a craps player would continue to make lay bets and don’t come box after a full night of losing.

  61. avatar
    James M April 28, 2015 at 1:56 am #

    Reality Check:
    Exactly, Montgomery got in through Cheney’s people IIRC. This was a huge embarrassment. A prosecution would have aired too much dirty laundry. This is exactly what is going on with Arpaio. They wanted this to all go away quietly.

    But, what’s being described sounds like a conspiracy to commit a computer crime targeting data whose provenance is said by the conspirator to be less than legitimate. I suppose that because it was a hoax to begin with, there’s not a crime here.

  62. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) April 28, 2015 at 4:45 am #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Even if he gets off easy, he won’t ride off into the sunset, fondly remembered as “America’s Toughest Sheriff”. He’ll fade into obscurity, rightfully shamed and vilified.

    Don’t underestimate the right-wing bubble. He might still have his time on Fox News or, at worst, as a WND column writer.

    Curious George: The experts like Karl Giddie-Yap, Mark Gillyard, Mike Violin, who demand that their opponents be “vetted” certainly could have helped Corporal ZooLow by doing a simple internet search for Montgomery. Why didn’t Corporal ZooLow do his own search and “vet” Montgomery?

    Because “vetting” is their code word for “swiftboating” at best and “making sure no black guy gets elected” at worst?

  63. avatar
    jtmunkus April 28, 2015 at 12:19 pm #

    James M: But, what’s being described sounds like a conspiracy to commit a computer crime targeting data whose provenance is said by the conspirator to be less than legitimate.I suppose that because it was a hoax to begin with, there’s not a crime here.

    Yathink Montgomery stayed put in Washington for the Arpaio/Zullo scheme to keep it outta Joe’s jurisdiction? 🙂

  64. avatar
    scott e April 28, 2015 at 3:26 pm #

    this story is just as compelling as the day i started.

  65. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater April 28, 2015 at 4:57 pm #

    scott e:
    this story is just as compelling as the day i started.

    That’s because you’re easily entertained. All one needs is a bug zapper or a shiny object for you to stare at.

  66. avatar
    Joey April 28, 2015 at 5:56 pm #

    I have to agree with scott e. I am still compelled by the complete and utter failure of the birther movement. I cannot remember the last time a political cause produced no victories whatsoever on any front over an eight year period of time. (Barack Obama first announced his candidacy on February 10, 2007).

  67. avatar
    Nancy R Owens April 28, 2015 at 6:32 pm #

    Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

    CarlOrcas: Here’s a link to the text story:

    http://tinyurl.com/ocup3tj

    http://www.12news.com/story/news/politics/2015/04/27/arizona-sheriff-joe-arpaio-judge-defended-by-judge-he-charged/26489967/

    The link doesn’t seem to be working on GR.

  68. avatar
    Lupin April 29, 2015 at 5:43 am #

    scott e:
    this story is just as compelling as the day i started.

    I started what? Moulting?

  69. avatar
    Thomas Brown April 29, 2015 at 2:02 pm #

    scott e:
    this story is just as compelling as the day i started.

    Started what exactly… chickening out of structured debates? …realizing your theories are so indefensible you shouldn’t risk public humiliation trying to defend them?

  70. avatar
    wrecking ball April 29, 2015 at 2:41 pm #

    arpaio’s attorney is objecting to judge snow questioning old joe:

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/29/ariz-sheriff-joe-arpaio-judge-questioning/26570501/

    they also want a looksies over the 3,300 pages of documents judge snow has ordered to be handed over related to the investigations of snow and his wife.

  71. avatar
    wrecking ball April 29, 2015 at 2:47 pm #

    also, an interesting article on the ethics of an ATTORNEY hiring a private investigator to investigate a judge:

    https://news.azpm.org/p/state-and-local/2015/4/29/62603-arpaio-hearing-raises-ethical-questions/

    but, as we know, arpaio’s former attorney has denied being the one to hire a PI.

  72. avatar
    Jim April 29, 2015 at 4:04 pm #

    If they find that this has gone further than what just came out in court, it could be really bad. As it stands now, likely another letting the Sheriff slide…as they’ve always done for him.

  73. avatar
    Reality Check April 29, 2015 at 5:04 pm #

    it appears that any attorney who represents Arpaio puts his bar license at risk.

    wrecking ball: also, an interesting article on the ethics of an ATTORNEY hiring a private investigator to investigate a judge:

  74. avatar
    wrecking ball April 29, 2015 at 5:12 pm #

    Jim:
    If they find that this has gone further than what just came out in court, ….

    at 3,300 pages i’m going to guess “yes”.

  75. avatar
    Notorial Dissent April 29, 2015 at 8:54 pm #

    If not their very soul and morals, but then I suspect he chooses them carefully. I don’t know if it is too late for Casey or not at this point.

    Reality Check:
    it appears that any attorney who represents Arpaio puts his bar license at risk.

  76. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) April 30, 2015 at 3:33 am #

    Reality Check: it appears that any attorney who represents Arpaio puts his bar license at risk.

    How long until only KKKlayman would be willing to represent him?

  77. avatar
    scott e April 30, 2015 at 9:14 am #

    Thomas Brown: Started what exactly… chickening out of structured debates?…realizing your theories are so indefensible you shouldn’t risk public humiliation trying to defend them?

    i have to couch my remarks here. i consider that i started as a birther on 4/27/11.

    i really thought this would dry up completely, but here we are. i stand by everything i still believe.i believe that the chicago machine has orchestrated several cover ups, not just this one.

    this is a structured debate.

  78. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 30, 2015 at 9:59 am #

    I tell you what, we could have a debate here with you. First, you would present a resolution that you want to defend, something specific, rather than than the vague and open-ended “i believe that the chicago machine has orchestrated several cover ups.” I could set up a specific article for it?

    Are you game? You can have the couch.

    There’s not much else going on right now.

    scott e: this is a structured debate.

  79. avatar
    AGROD April 30, 2015 at 12:07 pm #

    scott e loses as soon as the words “chicago machine” come out….

  80. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater April 30, 2015 at 1:20 pm #

    scott e: i have to couch my remarks here. i consider that i started as a birther on 4/27/11.

    i really thought this would dry up completely, but here we are. i stand by everything i still believe.i believe that the chicago machine has orchestrated several cover ups, not just this one.

    this is a structured debate.

    Yeah you’ve established you’re pretty slow when it comes to thinking. So you came on board late to the birther game and you’ll leave it I’m sure just as late.

    It has “dried up” there hasn’t been a single new claim in birtherism for the last few years. Chicago machine? Wow Scott you really need to stop watching movies because it’s like you’re a walking cliche. What cover-ups do you dream happened?

    The debate with Frank was going to be a structured debate and you ran when it came to that as well.

  81. avatar
    scott e April 30, 2015 at 7:12 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I tell you what, we could have a debate here with you. First, you would present a resolution that you want to defend, something specific, rather than than the vague and open-ended “i believe that the chicago machine has orchestrated several cover ups.” I could set up a specific article for it?

    Are you game? You can have the couch.

    There’s not much else going on right now.

    fine then, be it resolved: people are still talking about presidential eligibility and mr. obama’s provenance. that this will continue far beyond a/his critical presidency.

  82. avatar
    scott e April 30, 2015 at 7:16 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Yeah you’ve established you’re pretty slow when it comes to thinking.So you came on board late to the birther game and you’ll leave it I’m sure just as late.

    It has “dried up” there hasn’t been a single new claim in birtherism for the last few years.Chicago machine?Wow Scott you really need to stop watching movies because it’s like you’re a walking cliche.What cover-ups do you dream happened?

    The debate with Frank was going to be a structured debate and you ran when it came to that as well.

    when did you “come aboard” doctor ??

  83. avatar
    RanTalbott April 30, 2015 at 7:48 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: there hasn’t been a single new claim in birtherism for the last few years.

    Would the “Fuddy assassination” claim be considered “new”, or an extension of the “He killed all his gay lovers to conceal his past” claim?

  84. avatar
    Rickey April 30, 2015 at 8:16 pm #

    scott e: i have to couch my remarks here. i consider that i started as a birther on 4/27/11.

    i really thought this would dry up completely, but here we are. i stand by everything i still believe.

    Every argument raised by every birther has completely unraveled, yet you still believe.

    There must be a word for that.

  85. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy April 30, 2015 at 10:43 pm #

    I don’t think you would get much disagreement there.

    “just everytime i think it’s over something like this comes along, and i have to wonder why.

    — scott e (December 2012)
    — Comment at Obama Conspiracy Theories

    I’ve never been much of a fan of the “where there’s smoke, there’s fire” argument. Sometimes it’s just someone blowing smoke.

    scott e: fine then, be it resolved: people are still talking about presidential eligibility and mr. obama’s provenance. that this will continue far beyond a/his critical presidency.

  86. avatar
    RanTalbott April 30, 2015 at 10:50 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Sometimes it’s just someone blowing smoke.

    And often the smoke is coming from the pants of the person making the claim.

  87. avatar
    CarlOrcas April 30, 2015 at 10:57 pm #

    scott e: fine then, be it resolved: people are still talking about presidential eligibility and mr. obama’s provenance. that this will continue far beyond a/his critical presidency.

    You weren’t in speech and debate in high school, were you?

  88. avatar
    John Reilly May 1, 2015 at 12:20 am #

    scott e: fine then, be it resolved: people are still talking about presidential eligibility and mr. obama’s provenance. that this will continue far beyond a/his critical presidency.

    There are folks still talking about how the earth is flat.

  89. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) May 1, 2015 at 4:08 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I’ve never been much of a fan of the “where there’s smoke, there’s fire” argument.

    It’s cynical at best anyway because it allows the one doing the damage to complain about the damage.

  90. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) May 1, 2015 at 4:18 am #

    RanTalbott: Would the “Fuddy assassination” claim be considered “new”, or an extension of the “He killed all his gay lovers to conceal his past” claim?

    More like a rehash of the “Lt.” Quarles Harris (sp?) claims (“he was murdered because he saw something in Obama’s files”).

  91. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater May 1, 2015 at 7:38 am #

    The Magic M (not logged in): More like a rehash of the “Lt.” Quarles Harris (sp?) claims (“he was murdered because he saw something in Obama’s files”).

    I notice the Harris claim doesn’t make the rounds as much anymore

  92. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater May 1, 2015 at 7:42 am #

    scott e: when did you “come aboard” doctor ??

    What was there to come aboard with? I’ve been paying attention to Obama since I found out he was giving the keynote at the democratic convention in 2004. Unlike you I actually paid attention to regional politics and knew who the players were. Just as I knew who Palin was before McCain plucked her out of obscurity. I thought the birther delusions were always funny. You must not have much going on in your life that you continue to believe the president isn’t really the president despite reality.

  93. avatar
    Reality Check May 1, 2015 at 7:50 am #

    Thomas Brown has said this several times on my show: “Sometimes when there is smoke there is a smoke machine.” It’s never more true than with Birthers.

    Dr. Conspiracy: ’ve never been much of a fan of the “where there’s smoke, there’s fire” argument. Sometimes it’s just someone blowing smoke.

  94. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater May 1, 2015 at 7:50 am #

    scott e: fine then, be it resolved: people are still talking about presidential eligibility and mr. obama’s provenance. that this will continue far beyond a/his critical presidency.

    Your heads I win tails you lose argument continues to show the laziness of an irrational mind. You have the habit of trying to have it both ways. You have claimed that if Noone refutes your nonsense that there must be something there while at the same time claiming that when people refute your nonsense there must be someone there. It’s sad that the birther movement is left with only dead enders like you and “John”

  95. avatar
    Reality Check May 1, 2015 at 7:57 am #

    I love this meme Obama haters push that he came out of nowhere in 2008 to take the nomination from Hillary as if he were a chosen Manchurian candidate. Obama was a star after the 2004 key note speech at the convention. He trounced Alan Keyes in the Illinois Senate race in 2006 gathering something like 70% of the vote. Keyes was a carpet bagger the Republicans brought in from Maryland because they thought the only way to beat a popular young black guy was by running their own black guy. It didn’t work out. Yes, Hillary was the favorite but Obama was considered a serious threat from the time he entered the race in 2007.

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: What was there to come aboard with? I’ve been paying attention to Obama since I found out he was giving the keynote at the democratic convention in 2004.

  96. avatar
    Arthur May 1, 2015 at 8:26 am #

    scott e: fine then, be it resolved: people are still talking about presidential eligibility and mr. obama’s provenance. that this will continue far beyond a/his critical presidency.

    This is a self-evident proposition. It’s akin to proposing that, “People will still be talking about family members long after they’re dead.” I’ts absurd to debate a self-evident proposition because it is true on its own without any need to be considered, supported, or discussed.

    A resolution in a debate is a proposition of policy, fact or value that can be supported by facts, is open to argument, and can be affirmed or denied. For example,

    Policy: The office of president should be open to naturalized citizens.

    Fact: The term “natural born citizen” is best understood to mean a child born within the boundaries of the United States to parents who are U.S. citizens.

    Value: Natural-born citizens are uniquely qualified to serve as president.

  97. avatar
    Arthur May 1, 2015 at 8:34 am #

    Reality Check: Thomas Brown has said this several times on my show: “Sometimes when there is smoke there is a smoke machine.” It’s never more true than with Birthers.

    A variation: “Sometimes when there’s smoke, someone’s burning cow pies.”

  98. avatar
    scott e May 1, 2015 at 10:29 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I don’t think you would get much disagreement there.

    I’ve never been much of a fan of the “where there’s smoke, there’s fire” argument. Sometimes it’s just someone blowing smoke.

    thank you doc

  99. avatar
    scott e May 1, 2015 at 10:30 am #

    Reality Check:
    Thomas Brown has said this several times on my show: “Sometimes when there is smoke there is a smoke machine.” It’s never more true than with Birthers.

    or a xerox copier, right ?

  100. avatar
    scott e May 1, 2015 at 10:34 am #

    CarlOrcas: You weren’t in speech and debate in high school, were you?

    i had a great debate coach growing up, but no, my skills run to the artistic side. but i enjoy the process, and i enjoy the perspective that i get from all of you. politically, i’m smack dab in the middle. good question C O

  101. avatar
    scott e May 1, 2015 at 10:36 am #

    Arthur: A variation: “Sometimes when there’s smoke, someone’s burning cow pies.”

    i live in a dairy state, so watch it. (lol)

  102. avatar
    scott e May 1, 2015 at 10:40 am #

    Arthur: This is a self-evident proposition. It’s akin to proposing that, “People will still be talking about family members long after they’re dead.” I’ts absurd to debate a self-evident proposition because it is true on its own without any need to be considered, supported, or discussed.

    A resolution in a debate is a proposition of policy, fact or value that can be supported by facts, is open to argument, and can be affirmed or denied. For example,

    Policy: The office of president should be open to naturalized citizens.

    Fact: The term “natural born citizen” is best understood to mean a child born within the boundaries of the United States to parents who are U.S. citizens.

    Value: Natural-born citizens are uniquely qualified to serve as president.

    it was satire, nothing really more than that.

    but there are questions i still have. i have been away from all of this for awhile. i need to do a front to back recap on this since i started on 4/27/11. there are so many facets with this jewel. we can all get to the bottom of this together.

    this is good: The office of president should be open to naturalized citizens.

    would require a constitutional amendment, after defining natural born. if it has a definition, it may well not.

  103. avatar
    scott e May 1, 2015 at 10:48 am #

    Joey:
    I have to agree with scott e. I am still compelled by the complete and utter failure of the birther movement. I cannot remember the last time a political cause produced no victories whatsoever on any front over an eight year period of time. (Barack Obama first announced his candidacy on February 10, 2007).

    thank you, it’s a unique and multi-layered story, i have never seen anything like it.

    what continues to drive it, is an unknown, but i like all of it.

  104. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater May 1, 2015 at 10:52 am #

    scott e: or a xerox copier, right ?

    What about the xerox copier? It’s a logical explanation for all the things birthers imagine are wrong with the scan.

  105. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 1, 2015 at 11:36 am #

    scott e: i had a great debate coach growing up, but no, my skills run to the artistic side. but i enjoy the process, and i enjoy the perspective that i get from all of you. politically, i’m smack dab in the middle. good question C O

    I asked because your question isn’t debatable.

    Still waiting for more direct, factual responses to other questions on the blog.

  106. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater May 1, 2015 at 11:40 am #

    scott e: i had a great debate coach growing up, but no, my skills run to the artistic side. but i enjoy the process, and i enjoy the perspective that i get from all of you. politically, i’m smack dab in the middle. good question C O

    Apparently he didn’t teach you the fundamentals. It would explain why you backed out on Frank.

  107. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater May 1, 2015 at 11:42 am #

    scott e: i need to do a front to back recap on this since i started on 4/27/11. there are so many facets with this jewel. we can all get to the bottom of this together.

    this is good: The office of president should be open to naturalized citizens.

    would require a constitutional amendment, after defining natural born. if it has a definition, it may well not.

    I think most people here have read your cowpies that you’ve dropped over on another forum since 2011. Not once have you presented anything that could be considered factual let alone worth reading. We already got to the bottom of this before 2008

  108. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater May 1, 2015 at 11:42 am #

    scott e: what continues to drive it, is an unknown, but i like all of it.

    Simple. Stupid people in the birther movement like you that can’t get over that the American people elected the President.

  109. avatar
    Arthur May 1, 2015 at 11:44 am #

    scott e: it was satire, nothing really more than that.

    Really? Then in addition to your ignorance of debate and argumentative writing, you don’t know what satire is. Quite often, when people say or write something they later learn is incorrect, their fallback position is, “I was just kidding,” or “I was just trying to be sarcastic.”

  110. avatar
    scott e May 1, 2015 at 12:21 pm #

    CarlOrcas: I asked because your question isn’t debatable.

    Still waiting for more direct, factual responses to other questions on the blog.

    rhetorical. it has always seemed to me that the antibirthers have always said that there is no issue, no controversy, that no one is talking about eligibility or obama provenance and the chicago way. i disagree with at. i am not generalising though. there are many from each camp that do not qualify for that description.

    you have all created quite a brotherhood and sisterhood, more so than my birther side. just as some are racist some are not. but that field is open and growing.

    the race discussion is very interesting too. especially now. but again the perspective and the players are increasing exponentially.

  111. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy May 1, 2015 at 12:30 pm #

    Oh, have you not visited the Obama Conspiracy Theories blog? They talk about this stuff all the time. They also have some articles on polling data, like this one:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/07/rasmussen-23-say-obama-not-american-citizen/

    🙄

    scott e: rhetorical. it has always seemed to me that the antibirthers have always said that there is no issue, no controversy, that no one is talking about eligibility or obama provenance and the chicago way

  112. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 1, 2015 at 12:37 pm #

    scott e: rhetorical. it has always seemed to me that the antibirthers have always said that there is no issue, no controversy, that no one is talking about eligibility or obama provenance and the chicago way. i disagree with at. i am not generalising though. there are many from each camp that do not qualify for that description.

    Sorry, scott, but that’s not a response. It is, however, a classic case of gross generalization.

    The “anti-birthers” on this blog have long said the problem isn’t the lack of an issue or controversy. Clearly that’s not the case given the history of the blog.

    What the people who disagree with you are saying is that your problem is the lack of any evidence, any proof, to support your position. We’re still waiting, scott.

    scott e: you have all created quite a brotherhood and sisterhood, more so than my birther side. just as some are racist some are not. but that field is open and growing.

    the race discussion is very interesting too. especially now. but again the perspective and the players are increasing exponentially.

    Race? What does that have to do with facts about Obama?

  113. avatar
    scott e May 1, 2015 at 12:47 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Sorry, scott, but that’s not a response. It is, however, a classic case of gross generalization.

    The “anti-birthers” on this blog have long said the problem isn’t the lack of an issue or controversy. Clearly that’s not the case given the history of the blog.

    What the people who disagree with you are saying is that your problem is the lack of any evidence, any proof, to support your position. We’re still waiting, scott.

    Race? What does that have to do with facts about Obama?

    some birthers have been accused of being racist or bigoted about this topic. race is at the center of the stage now in this country. it shouldn’t be relevant, but it is. i am saying that there are going to be a lot of conservatives of color, there are more and more coming. not to generalise, but those people that have played the race card for obama, may have a hard time being critical of those conservatives of similar descent.

    are you for instance carl, being dogmatic ?

    you sound as if i shouldn’t be permitted to disagree with the antibirthers.

  114. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater May 1, 2015 at 1:11 pm #

    scott e: rhetorical. it has always seemed to me that the antibirthers have always said that there is no issue, no controversy, that no one is talking about eligibility or obama provenance and the chicago way. i disagree with at. i am not generalising though. there are many from each camp that do not qualify for that description.

    It isn’t an issue. This blog is an educational tool for dead enders like yourself. Chicago way? Seriously you watch too many movies. Can you get anymore cliched with your ignorance? You’re not generalizing? Really? So bringing up the chicago way and “the chicago machine” several times here isn’t considered a generalization by you?

  115. avatar
    bgansel9 May 1, 2015 at 1:57 pm #

    scott e: the chicago way

    Sounds like a method to make pizza or apply condiments to a polish sausage.

  116. avatar
    bgansel9 May 1, 2015 at 1:58 pm #

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: So bringing up the chicago way and “the chicago machine” several times here isn’t considered a generalization by you?

    His bias is okay. It’s only the media that can’t be biased. LOL He watches biased Rush Limbaugh, I bet. He doesn’t mind bias, actually, he just hates Liberals.

  117. avatar
    bgansel9 May 1, 2015 at 2:01 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Race? What does that have to do with facts about Obama?

    Hmmm! Methinks that Scott E. is sounding a lot like “Obliged Friend” (the racist), does anyone else see this too?

  118. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater May 1, 2015 at 2:26 pm #

    bgansel9: Sounds like a method to make pizza or apply condiments to a polish sausage.

    Every time I hear “the chicago way” I hear Sean Connery’s voice in my head.

  119. avatar
    Crustacean May 1, 2015 at 2:36 pm #

    I didn’t before, but now I do, too. Thanks a *lot* Dr. Ken!! 🙂

    (or is that Darrell Hammond’s voice I’m hearing?)

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Every time I hear “the chicago way” I hear Sean Connery’s voice in my head.

  120. avatar
    James M May 1, 2015 at 5:37 pm #

    … those people that have played the race card for [ President O]bama …

    What’s involved in “playing the race card?” Acknowledging that someone is a member of some particular race, and what else?

  121. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG May 1, 2015 at 10:46 pm #

    bgansel9: Sounds like a method to make pizza or apply condiments to a polish sausage.

    Now you’re making me hungry for a proper Italian beef sammich, damn it.

  122. avatar
    J.D. Sue May 1, 2015 at 10:46 pm #

    scott e: i am saying that there are going to be a lot of conservatives of color, there are more and more coming. not to generalise, but those people that have played the race card for obama, may have a hard time being critical of those conservatives of similar descent.

    —-

    If you think that people of color have a “hard time being critical of those conservatives of similar descent” then you must be living in a complete bubble.

  123. avatar
    CarlOrcas May 1, 2015 at 11:25 pm #

    scott e: ome birthers have been accused of being racist or bigoted about this topic.

    If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, scott……………………..

    scott e: race is at the center of the stage now in this country. it shouldn’t be relevant, but it is.

    Race has occupied center stage in this country and its politics from the very beginning, scott.

    scott e: i am saying that there are going to be a lot of conservatives of color, there are more and more coming. not to generalise, but those people that have played the race card for obama, may have a hard time being critical of those conservatives of similar descent.

    Good thing you didn’t generalize.

    scott e: are you for instance carl, being dogmatic ?

    I don’t think you know what the word means.

    scott e: you sound as if i shouldn’t be permitted to disagree with the antibirthers.

    A baseless, unsupportable comment.

  124. avatar
    Rickey May 2, 2015 at 2:19 am #

    scott e: some birthers have been accused of being racist or bigoted about this topic.

    Because Many of them are racist and bigoted.Take a look at posts on this blog by a creep calling himself ObligedFriend. Birther John calls undocumented aliens “vermin.”

  125. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) May 2, 2015 at 5:30 am #

    scott e: i am saying that there are going to be a lot of conservatives of color, there are more and more coming.

    Yes, any day now blacks are going to turn conservative “in droves”, or whatever Bibi’s words were.
    Problem is, the well-known black conservative politicians are just as crazy as the white ones (Carson, Cain, West, Keyes); the well-known black conservative pundits are just as crazy and racist as the white ones (Rush, Massie); and the average black conservative is going to have a hard time feeling at home among the Tea Party racists.
    Maybe they will be the ones who push the GOP back to normal, who knows, but I’m not holding my breath.