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Donald Trump: Birther

The New York Times has a new article today titled, “Inside the Six Weeks Donald Trump Was a Nonstop ‘Birther’” that describes Trump’s birther trial balloon during the 2011 presidential campaign, a trial balloon that burst in Trump’s face when the President released his birth certificate in April of 2011.

The article certainly makes it appear that Trump is a genuine conspiracy theorist, who pursued the theory by contacting Joseph Farah of WorldNetDaily.

I don’t want to paraphrase the Times article. It’s their story. We can discuss it below.

I think it is, however, useful to revisit Trump’s Hawaii statement, and this is what he said, courtesy of the Daily News:

“I have people that have been studying it and they cannot believe what they’re finding,” the would-be presidential candidate told NBC’s “Today.”

“You have people now out there searching – I mean, in Hawaii?” asked host Meredith Vieira.

“Absolutely,” Trump replied. “And they cannot believe what they’re finding.”

Notice that Trump’s initial statement is more or less true. There were people investigating the birth certificate. He doesn’t actually say that they work for him. But when pressed he doubled down with a bigger lie, as he does almost daily on Twitter.

99 Responses to Donald Trump: Birther

  1. avatar
    Scientist July 2, 2016 at 9:33 am #

    Inside the Six Weeks Donald Trump Was a Nonstop ‘Birther’

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/us/politics/donald-trump-birther-obama.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

    I actually was unaware that Trump never sent any investigators to Hawai’i.. I thought he rewarded a couple of employees by sending them to drink Mai Tais at the tiki bar and pretend they were investigators,

  2. avatar
    Reality Check July 2, 2016 at 10:30 am #

    Thanks Scientist. I had always suspected that Corsi, Farrah and WND were behind Trumps Birthering. This article confirms my suspicions.

    Scientist: Inside the Six Weeks Donald Trump Was a Nonstop ‘Birther’

  3. avatar
    Scientist July 2, 2016 at 12:43 pm #

    Reality Check:
    Thanks Scientist. I had always suspected that Corsi, Farrah and WND were behind Trumps Birthering. This article confirms my suspicions.

    Actually, the article says Trump contacted Farah, not the reverse. I’m not letting Farah off the hook, but this was mostly on Trumpolini. It’s interesting that Roger Stone, one of Nixon’s original Dirty Tricksters was involved. I believe he is behind most of what Trump has done, especially the launch speech a year ago and the border wall. So I blame Nixon in the end.

  4. avatar
    Reality Check July 2, 2016 at 12:48 pm #

    I agree. I should have said involved in Trumps Birthering. I suspect though that much of what Trump learned came from articles at WND however. They were pushing Birther stuff harder than about any right wing rag.

    Scientist: Actually, the article says Trump contacted Farah, not the reverse.

  5. avatar
    Thrifty July 2, 2016 at 12:54 pm #

    Trump’s dalliance with Birtherism seems like the one stupid thing he’s said that he’s not continuing to say. He was quick to restate his desire to ban all Muslims from entering the U.S, but he seems content to let the world forget about his Birtherism.

  6. avatar
    Reality Check July 2, 2016 at 1:01 pm #

    Corsi and Farah certainly were the “go to” guys for all things Birther.

  7. avatar
    justlw July 2, 2016 at 9:38 pm #

    I was kind of annoyed by the line, “The White House counsel dispatched someone to Hawaii to find the president’s original long-form birth certificate from 1961” — as if it had to be found, rather than there just needing to be someone with the authority to pick up the certified copy.

    But fun to hear confirmation that Trump was actively in contact with Farah and Corsi.

  8. avatar
    Rickey July 3, 2016 at 1:02 am #

    Roger Stone, Trump’s slimy advisor, went to the same high school as me. He was in eighth grade when I was a senior. He wrote a book a couple of years ago in which he claims that JFK was killed by LBJ.

  9. avatar
    Curious George July 3, 2016 at 1:52 am #

    There were those at the time who seriously believed that Donald Trump was actually doing his talk show Birther tour demanding to see Obama’s birth certificate as a way to defuse the impact of the pending release of Corsi’s new book, “Where’s the Birth Certificate?” In other words, it was believed by some, that Trump was actually working for the Obama Administration because of the Birther tour timing and because of his contributions to prominent officials within the Democratic Party. Maybe this is why Trump went silent after Corsi’s book was released. His mission was accomplished?

  10. avatar
    Scientist July 3, 2016 at 7:01 am #

    The salient thing to me is that Trump isn’t creative enough to come up with his own conspiracy theories, but, rather, has to latch on to ones invented by others. Some leader….

  11. avatar
    Craig HS July 3, 2016 at 7:38 am #

    Trump latches on to any conspiracy he thinks will boost him in the polls.

    And then I go and watch the President rip him to shreds in that White House correspondents Dinner, and all is right with the world.

  12. avatar
    Bob July 3, 2016 at 9:57 am #

    I wonder if we’ll ever find out why Trump dropped the subject.

  13. avatar
    Scientist July 3, 2016 at 11:53 am #

    Bob:
    I wonder if we’ll ever find out why Trump dropped the subject.

    The article implies that it was the potential loss of minority audiences for “The Apprentice” which certainly could be true. My suspicion is that Trump knew he couldn’t beat an incumbent President in 2012 and was laying down a marker for 2016, especially for the Republican base. Once that was accomplished there was no need to continue.

  14. avatar
    Terry K. July 3, 2016 at 12:29 pm #

    Reality Check:
    Thanks Scientist. I had always suspected that Corsi, Farrah and WND were behind Trumps Birthering. This article confirms my suspicions.

    Actually, Politico reported on Farah coaching Trump on birther stuff back when it was happening:

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2011/04/trump-and-the-blacks-035020

    ALSO: My colleague Kendra Marr reports that WorldNetDaily’s birth certificate aficionado Joseph Farah has been on the phone with Donald Trump every day this week.

    “We’ve have been speaking quite a bit,” he said.

    Farah is enthused that the mainstream media is finally listening. “”It’s irresistible theater, but he’s actually winning support,”” he said.

    WorldNetDaily first reached out to Trump as soon as he started publicaly talking about the conspiracy, offering to give him a birther primer and answer any questions about the topic. “”His people were very quick to respond,”” he said.

    Farah has advised Trump to simply ask, “”Where is the birth certificate?”” The Donald’s recent claim that Obama’s grandma in Kenya is on record saying he was born in Kenya is just troublesome, Farah said.

    “When you start making assertions and ‘grandma said,’” you start getting yourself in a bind,” Farah said. “I’m not sure that’s what grandma said. That’s fuzzy.”

  15. avatar
    scott e July 3, 2016 at 5:26 pm #

    i think we’re all in for a rude awakening.

  16. avatar
    Curious George July 3, 2016 at 10:04 pm #

    Reality Check:
    Thanks Scientist. I had always suspected that Corsi, Farrah and WND were behind Trumps Birthering. This article confirms my suspicions.

    I’m told that they actually had reservations about Trump back in 2011. You wouldn’t know it now.

  17. avatar
    Rickey July 3, 2016 at 11:32 pm #

    scott e:
    i think we’re all in for a rude awakening.

    Yeah, any day now.

  18. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 4, 2016 at 1:04 am #

    I get that every morning that I’m volunteering for Habitat.

    scott e: i think we’re all in for a rude awakening.

  19. avatar
    COMALite J July 4, 2016 at 12:36 pm #

    Craig HS:
    Trump latches on to any conspiracy he thinks will boost him in the polls.

    And then I go and watch the President rip him to shreds in that White House correspondents Dinner, and all is right with the world.

    That was indeed fun to watch when it was happening, but now? I dunno. I see Trump sitting there, glaring, fuming, and I wonder: is that when and why he decided to run for President himself, just to get back at Obama for that (never mind that he started it like the bully he is — bullies take very personal affront at any victim who dares to stand up to them, let alone publicly humiliate them)? Is America and all of human civilization going to be made to pay for Trump’s bruised ego?

    Even now he probably thinks, “Yeah, who’s laughing now, Kenyan funnyman?”

  20. avatar
    Pete July 4, 2016 at 1:41 pm #

    scott e: i think we’re all in for a rude awakening.

    Personally, I already had my rude awakening when I discovered just how much traction utter and complete, blatant lies and bullsh*t can get in America.

    I had a second rude awakening when I realized the birther bullcrap wasn’t just about people trying to gain name recognition and money through the use of blatant lies about others (Farah, Corsi, Zullo, Arpaio and a bunch of others), it was in fact about gaining traction to actually take over the Presidency of the entire d*mn United States (Trump).

    But as for you, scott, I’d have to agree. You are in for a rude awakening. Unfortunately, I don’t think you’re capable of it, even if someone slapped you upside the face repeatedly with a fresh mackerel straight out of the ice chest.

  21. avatar
    Charlie Burrow July 4, 2016 at 2:41 pm #

    Curious George:
    it was believed by some, that Trump was actually working for the Obama Administration

    Likewise, some suggest Trump is secretly working for Hillary:
    https://alibertarianfuture.com/2016-election/donald-trump-just-admitted-he-was-a-hillary-clinton-plant-the-whole-time/

    While that’s evidently an April Fool’s joke, other “serious” sources have questioned whether Trump is a Democratic plant:

    BBC: “Is Donald Trump a Democratic secret agent?”
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35066940

    Washington Post: “Jeb Bush tweets Trump-Clinton conspiracy theory.”
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/12/09/jeb-bush-jokes-of-trump-clinton-conspiracy-theory-heres-a-look-at-the-evidence/

    National Review: “Is Trump Working for Hillary?”
    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/428222/democrats-best-weapon-trump-mona-charen

  22. avatar
    Scientist July 4, 2016 at 2:46 pm #

    COMALite J: I see Trump sitting there, glaring, fuming, and I wonder: is that when and why he decided to run for President himself, just to get back at Obama for that

    I think the opposite-Trump’s birtherism was his laying the groundwork to run by getting attention and pandering to the base. He would have run in 2012, but he new that incumbent Presidents are hard to beat, especially ones who are great at campaigning as Obama. But he was laying the groundwork for 2016. So, I think he had already decided before Correspondents Dinner

    I can’t prove that, but there was no reason for Trump to birf except if he was going to run. It wasn’t going to help his casino business, nor did it increase ratings for “The Apprentice”.

  23. avatar
    justlw July 4, 2016 at 3:50 pm #

    Scientist: there was no reason for Trump to birf except if he was going to run.

    Nope, that makes sense. It sounds like exactly the kind of thing his buddy Roger Stone would encourage him to do.

    “Remember, politics is not about uniting people,” Stone told Jeffrey Toobin in 2008. “It’s about dividing people and getting your 51 percent.”

    And lest we forget, it wasn’t the first time Trump had stuck his toes in the presidential waters:

    That Time Trump Spent Nearly $100,000 On An Ad Criticizing U.S. Foreign Policy In 1987

  24. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater July 4, 2016 at 5:50 pm #

    scott e:
    i think we’re all in for a rude awakening.

    You’re still kicking around? Haven’t you learned by now?

  25. avatar
    Pete July 5, 2016 at 1:06 am #

    Of course scott hasn’t learned anything. The real birfers aren’t capable of it.

    Just like Mario Apuzzo continues to post his deplorable drivel over at his godawful legal pretense blog.

    It’s unreal, but as the saying goes, there’s a sucker born every minute.

    I checked over at Apuzzo’s just to make sure God hasn’t struck him with a lightning bolt between the eyes (for some reason inexplicable except for divine mercy, He hasn’t, yet), and the first thing to catch my eye was this slobbering comment from Kerchner:

    Your expertise on Article II Section 1 Clause 5 deserves publication in a peer reviewed law journal so all the academic legal world can learn of your wisdom on this subject an [sic] the truth about “natural born Citizen” to constitutional standards.

    That sound you hear is me giggling hysterically.

  26. avatar
    Reality Check July 5, 2016 at 8:27 am #

    I would love to see Mario try to submit an article for publication to a real legal journal. Any guess on how fast it would hit the trash can?

  27. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 6, 2016 at 11:59 pm #

    Clinton throws birther barb at Trump:

    “She complimented Obama as ‘someone who has never forgotten where he came from — and Donald, if you’re out there tweeting, it’s Hawaii.'”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/06/opinion/barack-obamas-final-fight.html?_r=0

  28. avatar
    J.D. Reed July 7, 2016 at 11:30 am #

    Much too late for that now!

  29. avatar
    Dave B. July 7, 2016 at 5:41 pm #

    And at WND, the headline for the story is “Hillary goes birther, shouts out Obama’s ‘birthplace’.”

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Clinton throws birther barb at Trump:

    “She complimented Obama as ‘someone who has never forgotten where he came from — and Donald, if you’re out there tweeting, it’s Hawaii.’”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/06/opinion/barack-obamas-final-fight.html?_r=0

  30. avatar
    scott e July 7, 2016 at 7:49 pm #

    the draft reg… is there another one like it ?

  31. avatar
    scott e July 7, 2016 at 7:53 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I get that every morning that I’m volunteering for Habitat.

    Trump elected wouldn’t mean the end of birtherism, i think there’s still info out on Obama, which we will eventually learn.

  32. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 7, 2016 at 10:21 pm #

    Mike Zullo got a number of Hawaiian draft registrations, excerpts of which he published in his book with Corsi.

    scott e: the draft reg… is there another one like it ?

  33. avatar
    justlw July 7, 2016 at 10:24 pm #

    scott e: i think there’s still info out on Obama, which we will eventually learn.

    I still have no idea who his favorite Beatle is.

  34. avatar
    Bonsall Obot July 8, 2016 at 3:05 am #

    “Eventually” is an ancient Sanskrit word for “any day now.”

  35. avatar
    Scientist July 8, 2016 at 6:24 am #

    scott e: i think there’s still info out on Obama, which we will eventually learn.

    Like that he says he’s a friend of American workers, but has all his products made in China and runs scam “Universities” that leave working folks in debt for life having learned nothing and that he stiffs small businesses that do work for him so they have to shut down and let their workers go? Will we learn that about Obama?

  36. avatar
    gorefan July 8, 2016 at 9:30 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Mike Zullo got a number of Hawaiian draft registrations

    How many from the Makiki Station post office?

    One of the claims made by Zullo was that the “80” on the President’s card was pushed too far to the right. As Arpaio outlined in his March 19th, 2012 letter to the SSS

    “When the person who cut off the “08” made the cut, the separation of numbers was not made squarely, so when the “08” was turned up-side down, to make the number print “80” the “80” was pushed too far to the right when placed back into the pica stamp. This explains how the “80” on Obama’s Selective Service Registration card appears out of line and to the right.”

    You even did an article about it:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/04/canceling-the-cold-case-posse/

    But one of the Hawaiian stamps used by Posseman Zullo in a CCP exhibit (Exhibit B) actually disapproved this claim. It was the stamp from Kapaa (upper left corner of Exhibit B) and the “1980” is pushed way too the right.

  37. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater July 8, 2016 at 10:18 am #

    scott e: Trump elected wouldn’t mean the end of birtherism, i think there’s still info out on Obama, which we will eventually learn.

    Yes we know nothing can ever stop conspiracy theorists from believing stupid crap.

  38. avatar
    scott e July 8, 2016 at 1:13 pm #

    question: do you guys think the long form would have come to be if there were/was no Trump ?

  39. avatar
    Rickey July 8, 2016 at 1:37 pm #

    scott e: Trump elected wouldn’t mean the end of birtherism

    That’s because there is no known cure for stupidity.

  40. avatar
    justlw July 8, 2016 at 1:44 pm #

    scott e:
    the draft reg… is there another one like it ?

    No, you can’t improve on a classic. The “artisanal Makiki stamper, used to create a forgery snuck into Bush-era government records systems” is my hands-down favorite absurd CCP theory.

  41. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 8, 2016 at 9:41 pm #

    I think it highly unlikely.

    scott e: question: do you guys think the long form would have come to be if there were/was no Trump ?

  42. avatar
    J.D. Reed July 9, 2016 at 1:04 am #

    scott e:
    question: do you guys think the long form would have come to be if it were not for Trump?

    Scott, what do you mean, come to be?
    Do you mean come to exist? Then definitely yes, it had already come to be, in August 1961. If you mean come to light, then I agree with Doc. But that’s essentially irrelevant because Obama had already released his so called short form, which serves for all legal purposes. Only people too obtuse or to obdurate refuse to accept. But refusing to accept reality doesn’t change reality one iota.

  43. avatar
    Charlie Burrow July 9, 2016 at 1:37 am #

    scott e: question: do you guys think the long form would have come to be if there were/was no Trump ?

    Trump may have triggered production of Obama’s BC but he utterly killed the “Where’s the birth certificate?” billboard & bumper sticker industry. Some businessman!!

  44. avatar
    scott e July 9, 2016 at 8:46 am #

    why not just show it in the book ? why all the mystery and drama and pageantry.
    and could you guys comment on that letter ( http://www.wnd.com/2016/07/hillary-goes-birther-on-trump-shouts-out-obamas-birthplace/#! ), i haven’t heard your side yet. why is it so controversial.

    and just curious who do you like for president ? are there any conservatives here ? thanks.

  45. avatar
    Joey July 9, 2016 at 1:12 pm #

    In 2008 and in 2009 the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health, Dr. Fukino had confirmed the existence of and the data on the long form birth certificate.
    October 31, 2008: STATEMENT BY DR. CHIYOME FUKINO
    “There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.
    “Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.
    “No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai‘i.”

    In 2011, Donald Trump’s birther statements may have been an impetus for Barack Obama’s campaign staff to obtain copies of the original birth certificate to use as a reelection campaign strategy.

  46. avatar
    Rickey July 9, 2016 at 6:02 pm #

    Joey:

    “No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai‘i.”

    Birthers such as Scottie have never been able to come up with a plausible explanation as to why Linda Lingle, a strong supporter of John McCain in 2008, would have conspired to falsely proclaim that Obama was born in Hawaii.

  47. avatar
    justlw July 10, 2016 at 2:31 am #

    scott e:
    why not just show it in the book ? why all the mystery and drama and pageantry.

    Showing it in the book would be the very definition of “mystery and drama and pageantry.”

    The least mysterious, dramatic, and pageantious (this is totally a word) action would have been to show the official Hawaii certification of live birth — which is precisely what Obama did in 2008. This was the exact prescribed and appropriate procedure that would have been followed for any other person born in Hawaii. And birthers would have none of it, as you may recall.

    Second least MDP would be following the established procedure to release a certified copy of the long form certificate, which is what was done in 2011.

    If you can find any case in recent history where anyone in any state has had their birth certificate “shown in the book”, I’d be keen to see a record of it. On a scale of 1 to carnival atmosphere, I’d place the very idea in full Geraldo Rivera territory.

    and could you guys comment on that letter ( http://www.wnd.com/2016/07/hillary-goes-birther-on-trump-shouts-out-obamas-birthplace/#! ), i haven’t heard your side yet. why is it so controversial.

    Why do you think it is controversial? Obama was elected president in 2008, and re-elected in 2012, without it ever being raised as even a glimmer of an issue by his political opponents. That doesn’t sound very controversial to me.

    and just curious who do you like for president ? are there any conservatives here ? thanks.

    There are several people who have identified themselves as conservatives here. I’m not one of them, but since you asked, I’m for “whoever keeps Donald Trump out of the White House”, which means Hillary Clinton at this point.

  48. avatar
    justlw July 10, 2016 at 3:04 am #

    Oh yeah, the other thing about the letter: you and WND both appear to have forgotten why it was supposed to be controversial in the first place. I thought the idea was that the letter somehow contradicted the information on the then-unreleased LFBC. Which, we all learned in 2011, does indeed say “Kapiolani”.

    So why again is it now controversial? Why is WND bringing it up again years later, other than for the obvious reason: they’re lazy, lazy grifters who depend on their readership to be equally lazy?

  49. avatar
    Rickey July 10, 2016 at 3:05 am #

    scott e:
    why not just show it in the book ?

    Show it to who? When has any court of law required the production of an original birth certificate from a state’s archives?

    and just curious who do you like for president ? are there any conservatives here ? thanks.

    Is there a conservative running for president?

    “Donald Trump’s candidacy is a cancer on conservatism, and it must be clearly diagnosed, excised and discarded.” – Governor Rick Perry

    “Republicans chose Trump and his nonconservative, idiosyncratic populism.” – Charles Krauthammer

    “Conservatives who opposed Trump kept arguing — indeed provided unassailable proof – that Donald Trump is not a conservative and has never been one.” – National Review

  50. avatar
    Pete July 10, 2016 at 3:36 am #

    scott e: why not just show it in the book ?

    Why don’t you just bend over for an anethesia-free amateur colonoscopy to prove to us that you haven’t ingested a balloon filled with cocaine?

  51. avatar
    scott e July 10, 2016 at 7:51 am #

    Rickey: Show it to who? When has any court of law required the production of an original birth certificate from a state’s archives?

    Is there a conservative running for president?

    “Donald Trump’s candidacy is a cancer on conservatism, and it must be clearly diagnosed, excised and discarded.” – Governor Rick Perry

    “Republicans chose Trump and his nonconservative, idiosyncratic populism.” – Charles Krauthammer

    “Conservatives who opposed Trump kept arguing — indeed provided unassailable proof – that Donald Trump is not a conservative and has never been one.” – National Review

    i don’t think i care for rick perry. but you’re right, i was at Cpac in march, there was no love lost for Trump, i was surprised cruz won the straw poll. but Trump is conservative in certain areas, such as the birther issue.
    krauthammer never liked Trump from the beginning, and the national review ? no longer relevant. thanks to the folks who answered.

  52. avatar
    Rickey July 10, 2016 at 5:02 pm #

    scott e:t Trump is conservative in certain areas, such as the birther issue.

    The birther “issue” has nothing to do with conservatism, unless you consider “conservatism” a synonym for “xenophobia” and “racism.”

    When are you going to demand that Trump produce his long-form birth certificate?

  53. avatar
    Northland10 July 10, 2016 at 5:32 pm #

    scott e: Trump is conservative in certain areas, such as the birther issue.

    Trump is an opportunist who says whatever he thinks will get him attention. He is pandering not to conservatives but the paranoid xenophobes and racists. Birthers are part of the bigoted whiners.

    The right wing is about selfish pouting, not conservative values.

  54. avatar
    Pete July 10, 2016 at 6:35 pm #

    scott e: Trump is conservative in certain areas, such as the birther issue.

    I would agree with Rickey. The birther crap really isn’t “conservative.” It’s basically conspiracy-theorist, with a twist of bigotry and racism.

    You might as well say bigotry and racism are “conservative.”

    But neither birtherism, nor bigotry, nor racism, are essentially political ideas.

  55. avatar
    COMALite J July 10, 2016 at 9:22 pm #

    Hey, scott e! Do you know how Birtherism got started in the first place?

    I do (no, not Hillary Clinton).

  56. avatar
    Joey July 10, 2016 at 10:21 pm #

    scott e:
    why not just show it in the book ? why all the mystery and drama and pageantry.
    and could you guys comment on that letter ( http://www.wnd.com/2016/07/hillary-goes-birther-on-trump-shouts-out-obamas-birthplace/#! ), i haven’t heard your side yet. why is it so controversial.

    and just curious who do you like for president ? are there any conservatives here ? thanks.

    If anyone in an official capacity (a judge or a congressional committee) wished to see the original birth certificate in the binder, they could issue a court order or a congressional subpoena for it to be inspected that way. No judge and no congressional committee chair ever needed that. Hawaii Revised Statute 338-18 is the law which governs releases of confidential public records and the law says nothing about viewing a birth certificate “in the book.” The law says “copies” can be released to certain individuals and organizations including anyone with a court order from a judge.
    Also President Obama’s cousin, Dr. Milton Wolf, who was the Tea Party endorsed candidate for the Republican Senate seat of Pat Roberts in Kansas could inspect or receive a copy of Barack Obama’s original birth certificate because Dr. Wolf and Barack Obama share a common ancestor which is one of the categories of who has a tangible interest in a birth document listed in Hawaii Revised Statutes 338-18.

  57. avatar
    scott e July 11, 2016 at 6:14 pm #

    Rickey: The birther “issue” has nothing to do with conservatism, unless you consider “conservatism” a synonym for “xenophobia” and “racism.”

    When are you going to demand that Trump produce his long-form birth certificate?

    he should just show it, everyone should, college records, everything.

  58. avatar
    scott e July 11, 2016 at 6:15 pm #

    COMALite J:
    Hey, scott e! Do you know how Birtherism got started in the first place?

    I do (no, not Hillary Clinton).

    no one does. that’s why i’m still here.
    i’d say ayers, mark penn, a combination. who knows. there was a circling around the issue of eligibility. there’s the sunday standard in jakarta. maybe one of you fogbow guys. orly, corsi, it’s still up in the air. the story is still revealing it’s characters, some still remain.

  59. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 11, 2016 at 6:22 pm #

    How about your college application? Can you show a copy? I bet you can’t get one.

    scott e: he should just show it, everyone should, college records, everything.

  60. avatar
    scott e July 11, 2016 at 6:24 pm #

    Joey: If anyone in an official capacity (a judge or a congressional committee) wished to see the original birth certificate in the binder, they could issue a court order or a congressional subpoena for it to be inspected that way. No judge and no congressional committee chair ever needed that. Hawaii Revised Statute 338-18 is the law which governs releases of confidential public records and the law says nothing about viewing a birth certificate “in the book.” The law says “copies” can be released to certain individuals and organizations including anyone with a court order from a judge.
    Also President Obama’s cousin, Dr. Milton Wolf, who was the Tea Party endorsed candidate for the Republican Senate seat of Pat Roberts in Kansas could inspect or receive a copy of Barack Obama’s original birth certificate because Dr. Wolf and Barack Obama share a common ancestor which is one of the categories of who has a tangible interest in a birth document listed in Hawaii Revised Statutes 338-18.

    i thought of that, or the people just in front or behind might get a peek. it one of the great mysteries in American politics. (second cousin once removed isn’t an issue ?)

  61. avatar
    scott e July 11, 2016 at 6:29 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    How about your college application? Can you show a copy? I bet you can’t get one.

    i went to four different universities.

  62. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 11, 2016 at 6:32 pm #

    OK, now many of them can you get application copies from? I bet none of them.

    scott e: i went to four different universities.

  63. avatar
    scott e July 11, 2016 at 7:07 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    OK, now many of them can you get application copies from? I bet none of them.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    OK, now many of them can you get application copies from? I bet none of them.

    everything that’s available. but in obama’s case, i don’t think college records are the problem. no ivy league school would put their endowments and reputations at risk.

    hey i do have a question: is there any evidence of muhammad subuh sumohadiwidjojo ever meeting stanley ann ?

  64. avatar
    Loren July 11, 2016 at 7:20 pm #

    scott e: no one does. that’s why i’m still here.
    i’d say ayers, mark penn, a combination. who knows. there was a circling around the issue of eligibility. there’s the sunday standard in jakarta. maybe one of you fogbow guys. orly, corsi, it’s still up in the air. the story is still revealing it’s characters, some still remain.

    I’d like to point out that MY argument is based on, and backed up by, actual, documented sources with quotes, dates, citations, and links.

    Whereas YOUR argument, for Ayers/Penn/Combination/Who Knows is seemingly based on nothing more than your imagination and a lot of wishful thinking. The mere fact that you can’t even narrow down your *candidates* for responsibility demonstrates how pitiful your argument is.

    I published my findings in 2011, over FIVE YEARS AGO. Notice how that was closer to the beginning of Birtherism than 2011 is to today. If the “story is still revealing its characters,” and you don’t have any better evidence to back up your preferred conclusions, that’s because you’ve never bothered to do any competent research in the last EIGHT YEARS.

  65. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater July 11, 2016 at 8:56 pm #

    scott e: he should just show it, everyone should, college records, everything.

    a piece of his umbilical cord, DNA evidence, used condoms. The problem being no president has had to show what you request.

  66. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater July 11, 2016 at 8:57 pm #

    scott e: i went to four different universities.

    Sarah Palin went to 5 and you both believe equally stupid things. I say you registered as a foreign student let’s see all your applications.

  67. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 11, 2016 at 9:06 pm #

    If you decide to stop evading the question, I will stop deleting your future comments.

    scott e: everything that’s available.

  68. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater July 11, 2016 at 10:01 pm #

    scott e: hey i do have a question: is there any evidence of muhammad subuh sumohadiwidjojo ever meeting stanley ann ?

    No

    scott e: everything that’s available.

    That’s not an answer. So which of the 4 colleges you attended still have your applications that you can get copies of?

  69. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater July 11, 2016 at 10:02 pm #

    scott e: i don’t think college records are the problem. no ivy league school would put their endowments and reputations at risk.

    How would they be at risk since each of the colleges have admitted he went there?

  70. avatar
    COMALite J July 11, 2016 at 11:28 pm #

    scott e: no one does. that’s why i’m still here.
    i’d say ayers, mark penn, a combination. who knows. there was a circling around the issue of eligibility. there’s the sunday standard in jakarta. maybe one of you fogbow guys. orly, corsi, it’s still up in the air. the story is still revealing it’s characters, some still remain.

    I take it, then, that you don’t know what greenish text that becomes underlined when you hover your mouse cursor over it, means? You know, like this text right here does? Yeah. Like that. And like the “I do” in the post to which you Replied.

    Those are clickable links. Guess what you’re supposed to do with them? C’mon. Guess.

    Had you done so, you might’ve found out just when and how Birtherism did start, complete with clickable links right in my comment on that forum that lead to the original research by Loren Collins, and to the actual posts still in their actual original forums with date stamps plainly visible.

    So yes, scott e, we bloody well do know exactly how Birtherism got started. And you would’ve, too, had you clicked the link and read it and followed the links therein.

  71. avatar
    COMALite J July 11, 2016 at 11:34 pm #

    Loren: I’d like to point out that MY argument is based on, and backed up by, actual, documented sources with quotes, dates, citations, and links.

    Whereas YOUR argument, for Ayers/Penn/Combination/Who Knows is seemingly based on nothing more than your imagination and a lot of wishful thinking. The mere fact that you can’t even narrow down your *candidates* for responsibility demonstrates how pitiful your argument is.

    I published my findings in 2011, over FIVE YEARS AGO. Notice how that was closer to the beginning of Birtherism than 2011 is to today. If the “story is still revealing its characters,” and you don’t have any better evidence to back up your preferred conclusions, that’s because you’ve never bothered to do any competent research in the last EIGHT YEARS.

    Waitaminnit, are you Loren Collins of “The Birth of a Notion”!? If so, oh how ironic for scott e! I linked to a summary of your work which in turns links directly to your website, and here the actual researcher is actually debating him in this very thread!

    Big admirer of yours!

  72. avatar
    Keith July 11, 2016 at 11:55 pm #

    COMALite J: Waitaminnit, are you Loren Collins of “The Birth of a Notion”!? If so, oh how ironic for scott e! I linked to a summary of your work which in turns links directly to your website, and here the actual researcher is actually debating him in this very thread!

    Big admirer of yours!

    Geddaroom you two! 😎

    Speaking of clickable links… he’s baaaaaack (but I’m not THAT mean).

  73. avatar
    scott e July 12, 2016 at 7:55 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    If you decide to stop evading the question, I will stop deleting your future comments.

    that’s fine, some people keep copies in their personal records. but your point is well taken. i just don’t know if all institutions of higher learning, keep those kinds of records, again irrelevant because the institutions in obama’s life are pretty prestigious, they are not going to risk everything even for that. i think the state of hawaii is much different.

    [I don’t consider that an answer. Why don’t you call the registrar’s of those four universities and ask them if a copy of your APPLICATION is available. I deleted your other comments. Doc.]

  74. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater July 12, 2016 at 2:10 pm #

    scott e: i just don’t know if all institutions of higher learning, keep those kinds of records, again irrelevant because the institutions in obama’s life are pretty prestigious,

    Being prestigious doesn’t change that they usually don’t keep those kinds of records. He also asked you about your own school which you still can’t answer. As usual scott you play the coward and can’t answer any direct questions.

  75. avatar
    J.D. Sue July 12, 2016 at 2:45 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: How about your college application? Can you show a copy?


    I went to a couple of colleges, and when I much later applied to law school, the first college said it had no record of me at all. Fortunately, the second college still had records of accepting the transferred credits/grades from the first college.

    (Of course, I never requested copies of school applications. Why would they still have that, and why would anyone ever want to see it? As for storage, they couldn’t even scan them back in the day).

  76. avatar
    Rickey July 12, 2016 at 3:21 pm #

    scott e:

    hey i do have a question: is there any evidence of muhammad subuh sumohadiwidjojo ever meeting stanley ann ?

    I debunked that particular theory when it was advanced by a birther with the ironic handle “The Truth.” Here it is, for your edification.

    Sometime in 1959, after the summer but while Mercer Island High School was in session. Stanley Ann Dunham and a male friend named Bill Byers decided to make an impromptu trip by car to San Francisco. We know that it happened during the school year because another friend, John Hunt, was asked to go along but he refused in part because “They would get in trouble for cutting school” (“A Singular Woman” by Janny Scott, pp. 67-68). “The Truth” believes that Dunham was impregnated by Subuh during her time in San Francisco. His belief is easily debunked, if for no other reason than the incontrovertible fact that Subuh was not in San Francisco at any time after July 14, 1959.

    Subuh gave four talks in San Francisco during the summer of 1959. The first was on July 3 and the last was on July 13. He then gave five talks in Los Angeles, and by August 1 he was in Oslo, Norway. He remained in Europe until January, 1960, when he traveled from Greece to India. Subuh was nowhere near San Francisco when Dunham was there, so he could not possibly have impregnated her.

    http://www.subudstories.info/bapak/talks/talks.html

    “The Truth” has offered two fallback theories. One is his claim that Dunham “disappeared” shortly after she returned to Washington from San Francisco. But that isn’t true. “Whatever the case, sometime shortly after graduation in 1960, Stanley Ann vanished.” (“A Singular Woman” p. 71). Not only is “The Truth’s” time frame wrong, in context it is clear that she did not literally vanish. She was upset that her parents were moving to Hawaii and that her father would not let her attend the University of Chicago, and she reacted by cutting off contact with her high school friends. As her friend Maxine Box said, “She was upset that she had to move.” (“A Singular Woman” p. 71).

    The other fallback theory is that Dunham met Subuh in Chicago during the summer of 1959. President Obama has written that she told him that she worked as an au pair in Chicago that summer, and this is supported by her aunt, Arlene Payne, who has said that Dunham stayed with her for a time while Payne was doing graduate work at the University of Chicago (“A Singular Woman” p. 71). Subuh, meanwhile, gave three talks in Chicago in 1959. The first was on June 17 and the last was on June 25. He then was in Denver on June 30. The population of Chicago in 1959 was 3.5 million; the idea that Dunham would have met Subuh during the ten days or so that he was there is rather remote, even if she happened to be there at the same time (and “The Truth” has no idea what part of the summer she spent in Chicago). However, simple arithmetic tells us that Subuh could not possibly have impregnated Dunham while he was in Chicago. If she had conceived during the last week of June, she would have given birth in late March or early April of 1960, during her senior year in high school. None of her many high school friends who have been interviewed have any recollection of her being pregnant.

    “The Truth” then makes the evidence-free suggestion that Stanley Ann became involved in Subud during her time in Indonesia. In fact, Subud is mentioned only twice in “A Singular Woman” and Subuh is not mentioned at all. In 1970 Stanley Ann was recruiting teachers for the Ford Foundation. “A half-dozen of them [teachers] accepted her invitation, many of them members of an international spiritual organization, Subud” (“A Singular Woman” pp. 116-117). One of Stanley Ann’s many friends in Indonesia was Mohammad Mansur Medeiros, “a reclusive and scholarly Subud member from Fall River, Massachusetts” (“A Singular Woman” p. 121). Those are the only mentions of Subud in the book that I can find, and there is not even a suggestion that Stanley Ann ever joined the organization. The fact that she met a few members of Subud is hardly a dramatic or significant revelation.

  77. avatar
    Rickey July 12, 2016 at 3:31 pm #

    scott e: he should just show it, everyone should, college records, everything.

    Don’t tell me, tell Trump.

    Obama has released two versions of his birth certificate, both certified, and his tax returns going back to 2000.

    Trump has released only a photocopy of what purports to be his birth certificate, and no tax returns.

  78. avatar
    gorefan July 12, 2016 at 4:31 pm #

    scott e: i just don’t know if all institutions of higher learning, keep those kinds of records

    They don’t.

    Here is the records retention schedule for Occidental College.

    https://www.oxy.edu/sites/default/files/assets/College_Policies/Record_Retention_Policy.doc

    The President’s records except for transcripts would have been destroyed back in the 1980s. Only transcripts and date of graduation/degree awarded are permanent records.

  79. avatar
    justlw July 12, 2016 at 4:55 pm #

    gorefan: Here is the records retention schedule for Occidental College.

    How convenient. You’re going to tell me Oxy “just deleted” the future president’s application records, 32 years before he ran for president, because of some policy that “just happens” to cover his and every other student’s records?

  80. avatar
    gorefan July 12, 2016 at 5:14 pm #

    justlw: How convenient.You’re going to tell me Oxy “just deleted” the future president’s application records, 32 years before he ran for president, because of some policy that “just happens” to cover his and every other student’s records?

    Not just Oxy. Looking at rentenion schedules for several other universities shows the same time periods.

    It is university shattering evidence.

  81. avatar
    Northland10 July 12, 2016 at 7:54 pm #

    gorefan: Not just Oxy.Looking at rentenion schedules for several other universities shows the same time periods.

    It is university shattering evidence.

    I was going to look up at least my Alma Mater when I got home but you saved me the time. Thank you.

    I assume scott e. will intentionally decide that the “academic records” and “Date of graduation and degree award” mean more than the information available on college transcripts (dates of attendance, classes taken, grades for classes, graduation and degree info).

    On an OT side note, when I get back to the day job office after my current vacation, I will need research, in my advancement services resources, retention time for gift batches. Though I doubt Permanent, which OXY listed, is really necessary, I think I may need to discuss our current policy and why it should be followed better (finance would like a few months).

    Thank you Gorefan for making me think of my day job while on vacation. I’ll let it slide for now.

  82. avatar
    Northland10 July 12, 2016 at 8:03 pm #

    scott e: everything that’s available. but in obama’s case, i don’t think college records are the problem. no ivy league school would put their endowments and reputations at risk.

    You think colleges that are 200-300 years old retain every record like applications forms?

    It’s a good thing I think you are just trolling because the alternative is that you are delusional.

  83. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 12, 2016 at 9:19 pm #

    Two stories on retention:

    This is a story from our church. I’m the financial secretary, meaning that I do the accounting for contributions. We keep those records on a computer in the secretary’s office. We bought that computer a couple of years ago, replacing a previous computer that we stored in a closet. Well the closet needed to be cleared out to make room for other stuff, so I decided to put the old computer in the attic. When I went in the attic, I had to move the previous old church financial computer to make room for the new old church financial computer.

    I’ll tell you another story. I worked for the South Carolina Department of Health when I first got out of college, and around 1977 we developed what we called the Multiphasic Screening System, a battery of tests we could administer to the public as a health screening, and part of the battery of test was a blood test for bilirubin. Employees were the first guinea pigs. Many years later my doctor did the same test and noted that it was elevated, and I told him that I had had an elevated result many years back. The doc wanted to look at the result, so I called the Health Department to get the result. It turns out that the MPSS was no longer in use and had been taken offline. However, since I had been head of IT there, I had some friends who pulled an old reel of backup tape. I remembered my patient ID number so they could find the record and I had file layouts for the data. I was able to read the raw numbers and tease out the lab result; but I’m probably the only person who could have gotten that result. Nobody else knew how to read the data.

    Northland10: think I may need to discuss our current policy and why it should be followed better (finance would like a few months).

  84. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 12, 2016 at 9:44 pm #

    I knew about retention schedules for college applications before I challenged scott. In general they don’t last very long after graduation.

    J.D. Sue: (Of course, I never requested copies of school applications. Why would they still have that, and why would anyone ever want to see it? As for storage, they couldn’t even scan them back in the day).

  85. avatar
    Charlie Burrow July 13, 2016 at 10:05 am #

    justlw: How convenient.You’re going to tell me Oxy “just deleted” the future president’s application records, 32 years before he ran for president, because of some policy that “just happens” to cover his and every other student’s records?

    Shocking! You’d think they would have sent the records to The Obama Presidential Library. c/o The Future.

  86. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater July 13, 2016 at 10:19 am #

    Charlie Burrow: Shocking! You’d think they would have sent the records to The Obama Presidential Library. c/o The Future.

    I know I’m sure Scott E. thought it was weird that they didn’t predict a random black student would become president many years later.

  87. avatar
    Joey July 13, 2016 at 5:13 pm #

    Scott e said: “i thought of that, or the people just in front or behind might get a peek. it one of the great mysteries in American politics. (second cousin once removed isn’t an issue ?)”

    People in line would only see the short form, computer print out abstract, not the original long form. That is only available by special request.
    The statute says that anyone with a “common ancestor” can inspect or get a copy of the Registrant’s birth certificate.
    Barack Obama and Dr. Wolf are related through Thomas Creekmore McCurry (1850–1939), President Obama’s great-great-grandfather, and Wolf’s great-grandfather. Obama’s grandmother, Madelyn Dunham, was Wolf’s mother’s first cousin

  88. avatar
    Joey July 13, 2016 at 6:06 pm #

    scott e: that’s fine, some people keep copies in their personal records. but your point is well taken. i just don’t know if all institutions of higher learning, keep those kinds of records, again irrelevant because the institutions in obama’s life are pretty prestigious, they are not going to risk everything even for that. i think the state of hawaii is much different.

    [I don’t consider that an answer. Why don’t you call the registrar’s of those four universities and ask them if a copy of your APPLICATION is available. I deleted your other comments. Doc.]

    In the political arena, if a candidate wants to force his opponent’s hand, he or she reveals the desired information first.
    Are you aware of any Republican candidate or elected federal official who has released the records that you say President Obama should release?

  89. avatar
    Charlie Burrow July 14, 2016 at 1:14 am #

    Joey:
    .
    The statute says that anyone with a “common ancestor” can inspect or get a copy of the Registrant’s birth certificate.

    “It’s already been learned that Mr. Obama is related, however distantly, to people as diverse as Warren Buffett, Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh and George W. Bush.”
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/surprising-link-found-in-obamas-family-tree/

    So, it looks like Warren, Sarah, Rush and W are all qualified to receive certified copies of Obama’s BC. Amazing! Better get those orders in quick before they change the rules!

  90. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 14, 2016 at 7:08 am #

    Hawaii does not consider “ancestor” to extend back to Adam and Eve or the common ancestor of humankind. It’s just parents, grandparents, siblings aunts and uncles. See http://health.hawaii.gov/vitalrecords/who-is-eligible/

    Charlie Burrow: Amazing! Better get those orders in quick before they change the

  91. avatar
    Joey July 14, 2016 at 1:13 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Hawaii does not consider “ancestor” to extend back to Adam and Eve or the common ancestor of humankind. It’s just parents, grandparents, siblings aunts and uncles. See http://health.hawaii.gov/vitalrecords/who-is-eligible/

    I believe that many states will often interpret their statutes more broadly in the case of a direct descendant if the applicant is seeking documentation for legitimate genealogical research. They tend to decide on a case by case basis.

  92. avatar
    Charlie Burrow July 14, 2016 at 1:54 pm #

    Joey: I believe that many states will often interpret their statutes more broadly in the case of a direct descendant if the applicant is seeking documentation for legitimate genealogical research. They tend to decide on a case by case basis.

    Hawaii’s policy for genealogy based requests:
    http://health.hawaii.gov/vitalrecords/geneaology/

  93. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 14, 2016 at 5:36 pm #

    I vaguely remember a Hawaiian lawsuit about this.

    Joey: I believe that many states will often interpret their statutes more broadly in the case of a direct descendant if the applicant is seeking documentation for legitimate genealogical research. They tend to decide on a case by case basis.

  94. avatar
    Arthur B. July 14, 2016 at 6:06 pm #

    BREAKING NEWS:

    Trump picks Pence

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/14/politics/donald-trump-vice-presidential-choice/index.html

  95. avatar
    Rickey July 14, 2016 at 7:23 pm #

    Arthur B.:
    BREAKING NEWS:

    Trump picks Pence

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/14/politics/donald-trump-vice-presidential-choice/index.html

    It seems that way, although an official announcement may not come tomorrow.

  96. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 15, 2016 at 6:14 pm #

    I should have bought stock in Twitter

    Rickey: It seems that way, although an official announcement may not come tomorrow.