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Expert witnesses in Georgia

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This article is my informed opinion.

Courts in the United States have rules to exclude junk science and cranks posing as experts. At the federal level, experts are subject to what is called the “Daubert standard” defined by three Supreme Court cases: Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, General Electric Co. v. Joiner, and Kumho Tire Co. v. Carmichael. These decisions are incorporated in the Federal Rules of Evidence 702 and 703.

At the most  basic level, the Court said that an expert must meet two criteria:

  1. the expert witness used generally accepted practices and standards and
  2. the expert witness was property credentialed.

Their testimony must meet additional standards of relevance and methodology.

The Standard

The Supreme Court’s ruling sets up the following standards for relevance and reliability of expert testimony:

  1. whether the theory at issue can and has been tested,
  2. whether the theory has been subjected to peer review and publication,
  3. whether there is a known or potential error rate, and
  4. whether the theory has been generally accepted within the scientific community

Farrar v Obama

The “witness list” presented by Orly Taitz for the January 26 hearing of Farrar v. Obama includes two individuals, Dr. Ron Polland and Douglas Vogt; both have published papers in which they claimed expertise in forensic document analysis. Dr. Polland concluded that President Obama’s short form was created from images of other certificates (no actual physical certificate exists), and Mr. Vogt has said that the PDF copy of the long form birth certificate released by the White House is not a scan of any real document but rather something composed electronically. Both allege criminal fraud by the President and Hawaiian officials. Neither have any credentials as document experts.

The rule in Georgia

In 2005, the State of Georgia adopted tort reform that, among other things, established standards for expert testimony in civil cases similar to the Supreme Court’s standards in Daubert. Georgia law now essentially adopts the Federal Rules of Evidence  702 and 703 with minor differences in wording from Federal Rule 703. (Georgia has not adopted the entire Federal Rules of Evidence or the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, so the context under which Rule 702 and 703 are applied is different.) The Georgia statute also states:

(f) It is the intent of the legislature that, in all civil cases, the courts of the State of Georgia not be viewed as open to expert evidence that would not be admissible in other states.  Therefore, in interpreting and applying this Code section, the courts of this state may draw from the opinions of the United States Supreme Court in Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, Inc., 509 U.S. 579 (1993); General Electric Co. v. Joiner, 522 U.S. 136 (1997); Kumho Tire Co. Ltd. v. Carmichael, 526 U.S. 137 (1999); and other cases in federal courts applying the standards announced by the United States Supreme Court in these cases.

The Georgia statute also provides for an optional pre-trial hearing hearing to assess proposed expert testimony.

Conclusion

If Orly Taitz tries to present Polland and Vogt as expert witnesses I would expect an objection to be made by Obama’s attorney. There is also the issue of relevance. I cannot imagine anyone presenting a JPG or PDF image of a birth certificate as evidence at the hearing. If a birth certificate is presented, it will be on paper. Looking rules, I don’t see any chance that either Polland or Vogt will be allowed to testify as expert witnesses.

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90 Responses to Expert witnesses in Georgia

  1. avatar
    G January 15, 2012 at 8:32 pm #

    Excellent article summarizing the issue and explaining all of its key principles and how they apply in this situation.

    Well done, Dr. C! 🙂

  2. avatar
    GeorgetownJD January 15, 2012 at 8:37 pm #

    G:
    Excellent article summarizing the issue and explaining all of its key principles and how they apply in this situation.

    Well done, Dr. C!

    Yes, kudos. Too bad Orly Taitz has not read the same. Instead of reading two books by Justice Byron White to try to glean his views for a doomed certiorari petition, she should be reading up on Georgia law as it relates to the rules of evidence governing proceedings in that state.

  3. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 15, 2012 at 8:43 pm #

    Considering the source, I really appreciate your approval.

    I added a sentence since you read the article it pointing out that it is unlikely that any electronic document, such as Polland Vogt claim expertise on, would be presented at the hearing. Maybe Obama’s attorney will present a birth certificate, but it will be a real one, not a picture.

    So if the document “experts” can’t testify and the social-security number isn’t relevant, all Orly really has is the NBC claim and we saw how far that flew in Indiana.

    GeorgetownJD: Yes, kudos

  4. avatar
    Judge Mental January 15, 2012 at 10:32 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Considering the source, I really appreciate your approval.I added a sentence since you read the article it pointing out that it is unlikely that any electronic document, such as Polland Vogt claim expertise on, would be presented at the hearing. Maybe Obama’s attorney will present a birth certificate, but it will be a real one, not a picture.So if the document “experts” can’t testify and the social-security number isn’t relevant, all Orly really has is the NBC claim and we saw how far that flew in Indiana.

    It has been speculated that if Jablonski wanted to grandstand it, he might arrange for Obama to order a certified copy birth certificate and nominate that it be forwarded by Hawaii in a sealed envelope addressed to the Adminstrative Court in Georgia.

    A nice crisp signed and sealed standard format COLB would be produced from the envelope by the Court clerk thus cutting the legs from allegations of tampering with the information on the certificate after it left Hawaii. That would leave no forgery allegation avenue other than one resting on Hawaii themselves having deliberately issued a certified copy birth certificate containing birth information which they knew to be untrue.

  5. avatar
    Goat Rodeo Rider January 15, 2012 at 11:05 pm #

    While jpeg’s and pdf’s can’t be submitted as evidence, YouTube videos are admissible.

  6. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 15, 2012 at 11:11 pm #

    Well if he really wanted to grandstand it, he could bring in the original copy of the US Constitution, the one with the definitions scribbled on the back.

    Judge Mental: It has been speculated that if Jablonski wanted to grandstand it

  7. avatar
    JPotter January 15, 2012 at 11:12 pm #

    Goat Rodeo Rider:
    While jpeg’s and pdf’s can’t be submitted as evidence, YouTube videos are admissible.

    A joke…? JPG’s and PDFs can be evidence, when they are relevant. In this case, they aren’t …. and neither are YouTube videos discussing them! LOL!

  8. avatar
    JPotter January 15, 2012 at 11:13 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Well if he really wanted to grandstand it, he could bring in the original copy of the US Constitution, the one with the definitions scribbled on the back.

    And dress in period costume 😉

  9. avatar
    Tarrant January 15, 2012 at 11:24 pm #

    This is where much of birtherdom falls apart.

    It’s easy on the Internet to claim you’re an expert in something. Vogt had Photoshop experience yet has never looked at a single other document. Irwy (now partially recanted) sold copiers. Both can claim expertise in anything they want. It’s the Internet.

    Courts do not work that way. While it isn’t unusual in a real trial for both sides to have qualified experts that disagree, the key word is qualified. Neither Vogt nor Irey would get past a Daubert hearing. Hell, just asking them one, how many other times in their lives have they been called to testify as an expert (this isn’t wholly disqualifying, everyone has to have a first time) and how many other similar, authentic documents did they compare it to that did NOT have the features they claim, would lead them to be disqualified. They are not certified by any organization that does document examination.

    I feel bad for those taking the time and money to attend this for Orly – my guess is none of them will get to testify given she included none in her original witness list.

  10. avatar
    GeorgetownJD January 15, 2012 at 11:26 pm #

    Goat Rodeo Rider:
    While jpeg’s and pdf’s can’t be submitted as evidence, YouTube videos are admissible.

    And a YouTube video qualifies under which exception to the hearsay rule …?

  11. avatar
    Goat Rodeo Rider January 15, 2012 at 11:30 pm #

    GeorgetownJD: And a YouTube video qualifies under which exception to the hearsay rule …?

    If said YouTube video is in Indonesian.

  12. avatar
    JPotter January 15, 2012 at 11:36 pm #

    In their defense, Irey was a typesetter, Vogt sold scanners and claimed intimate knowledge of digital archiving systems, and pushed crank new agey literature. I’d hate for anyone to get their CV’s confused. *cough* [sincereface.sincereface.sincereface.]

    Tarrant: Vogt had Photoshop experience yet has never looked at a single other document. Irwy (now partially recanted) sold copiers

  13. avatar
    NBC January 15, 2012 at 11:45 pm #

    Goat Rodeo Rider: While jpeg’s and pdf’s can’t be submitted as evidence, YouTube videos are admissible.

    Cite the appropriate rule of evidence that allows for this hearsay to be submitted.

  14. avatar
    NBC January 15, 2012 at 11:51 pm #

    Goat Rodeo Rider: If said YouTube video is in Indonesian.

    I see, Orly law…. Very funny.

  15. avatar
    GeorgetownJD January 15, 2012 at 11:55 pm #

    Goat Rodeo Rider: If said YouTube video is in Indonesian.

    Ah, a joke. You made a funny.

  16. avatar
    JPotter January 16, 2012 at 1:00 am #

    Thanks, Doc, for outlining the standards, the height of the bar, and just how far short the birth’e’sperts fall. If Orly is really intent on bringing these guys in as experts, it can only mean the plaintiffs assume the defense will present only a digital file. Which to me means they are projecting their own nuttiness onto the defense, or truly assume that there are no actual documents.

    Can’t wait for that bubble to be popped.

  17. avatar
    y_p_w January 16, 2012 at 2:01 am #

    Judge Mental: It has been speculated that if Jablonski wanted to grandstand it, he might arrange for Obama to order a certified copy birth certificate and nominate that it be forwarded by Hawaii in a sealed envelope addressed to the Adminstrative Court in Georgia.

    A nice crisp signed and sealed standard format COLB would be produced from the envelope by the Court clerk thus cutting the legs from allegations of tampering with the information on the certificate after it left Hawaii. That would leave no forgery allegation avenue other than one resting on Hawaii themselves having deliberately issued a certified copy birth certificate containing birth information which they knew to be untrue.

    That sounds pretty good. I remember when I’ve ordered up official college transcripts, they typically came in sealed envelopes with some sort of tamper-evident seal. Any kind of grad school admissions dept wanted then sent directly under seal. When I applied for grad school admissions, most wanted letters of recommendations sent directly from the professors. One school wanted me to send two recommendations and the rest of my application in a single package, but asked that each professor seal each recommendation in a special envelope with the professor’s signature signed over the envelope seal.

    However, I’d hope that if their intent is to use a certified birth certificate, they come with a backup plan. I’ve mentioned that there’s a volume discount from Hawaii ($4 after the first copy). I wouldn’t necessarily count on the mail to be that reliable. Occasionally stuff gets lost in the mail, and I don’t think the Hawaii Dept of Health normally uses package delivery services for birth certificates.

    Of course most government agencies or courts aren’t sticklers to for that level of detail. I recent got my kid’s passports (card and book), and the State Dept sure as heck didn’t request that I have a vital records office send them a birth certificate copy under seal.

  18. avatar
    reXteryalizer January 16, 2012 at 3:25 am #

    Want to thank all of you, for your Powerfull stand against Oboma & His Corrupted political partners.

    But there is so much more we can do. Being aggressive and focusing on the facts and truth is only the first step.

    We musT follow Up with more details standing by our convictions and dont back down.

    Oboma has NOT brought CHANGE, In fact ~! ~ THE ONLY real THING needing CHANGE !….Was Barack Hussein Obama II.

    HIMSELF

    Barack Hussein Obama II ( Who hates American Values ) who is A ” SELF

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    At your COST & Sacrifice

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    THESE ARE OBAMAS Very OWN WORDS.. sayyng ………To his supporters.
    Saying “Get ready for hand-to-hand combat with your Fellow Americans”

    – Obama has ALSO DECLARED to his Supporters….“I want all Americans to get in each others faces!– Obama demands !

    “You bring a knife to a fight pal, we’ll bring a gun” –

    THESE ARE OBAMAS OWN WORDS.. /and ANGER VIOLENCE and more taxes….. THIS IS OBAMAS Change for america

    /“Hit Back Twice As Hard”. He commands !*Obama on the private sector: ~~ “We talk

    to these folks…~ / so I know whose a*$ to KICK.“ OBOMA wants to KICK your a*$ /

    Shouting THAT Republican victory would mean ~ “hand to hand combat”

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    OBAMA TAKES a little NEW BORN innocent child. BORN. ALIVE sTabS it iN the head SUCKs ITS BRAINS OUT.

    This is just to wrong and horrible. Please stand for Loving Children and the USA

  19. avatar
    The Magic M January 16, 2012 at 4:12 am #

    JPotter: or truly assume that there are no actual documents

    I bet Orly does.

    y_p_w: Occasionally stuff gets lost in the mail, and I don’t think the Hawaii Dept of Health normally uses package delivery services for birth certificates.

    I don’t think they’d handle this like “any other” BC. Remember what lengths both Hawaii and the Obama administration went to with the copies presented to the press.
    Then again, this is all just dealing with a couple of cranks, so they might not go the extra mile because they’d yell “conspiracy!” anyway.

  20. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny January 16, 2012 at 5:35 am #

    GeorgetownJD: Ah, a joke.You made a funny.

    Not necessarily. The Birfer Queen (WBUH in the DC) has been calling out for a translator or interpreter who knows Indonesian to translate or interpret an Indonesian You Tube from an Indonesian woman pretending to be an adoptive sister of Obama (note that every Indonesian who knew the Soetoros ever interviewed by a Western newspaper has declared the claim bogus). Apparently, she thinks she can use the translation of the video as evidence in the Georgian court. Unbelievably, she does not even know that there is aomething called certified translation.

    I am a translator and I can assure you that just like a translation of a book by a Professor Marius Levy on the theory of Ignaz Semmelweis is still a book written by a crank on a theory that could have saved thousands of women, the translation and interpretation of hearsay, even by a certified translator, is still hearsay. If Jonathan Levy Esq is indeed the lawyer helping her out, he should tell her.

    Oh, and the other Levy’s book did indeed get translated, in German, by a German obstetrician. Who later famously committed suicide when he found out how many deaths he had caused (I am not making this up).

  21. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 16, 2012 at 10:32 am #

    A most curious motion to intervene in the Georgia case was filed:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/76200089/Orly-Taitz-OSAH-in-Re-Ghostwriting-Taitz

  22. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 16, 2012 at 10:34 am #

    Levy graduated from the same online law school as Taitz. He may not know.

    Paul Pieniezny: If Jonathan Levy Esq is indeed the lawyer helping her out, he should tell her.

  23. avatar
    JD Reed January 16, 2012 at 10:36 am #

    How about videoconferencing between the Georgia court and the Hawaii Department of Health? A Hawaii official could hold up to the camera a copy of the birth certificiate. Or they could bring the bound volume to the camera, take a close up of the original to show to the Georgia court.
    I guess there would have to be some court official or a notary public on the Hawaii end to put the Hawaii official under oath to certify that this is, yes, the real Department of Health, this is a real official of that department, and this is the real original certificate in the real bound volume where it’s supposed to be.
    Wouldn’t Orly have a cow?

  24. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 16, 2012 at 10:39 am #

    While it is common for states to offer expedited shipping (FedEx usually), Hawaii doesn’t seem to do this.

    y_p_w: I don’t think the Hawaii Dept of Health normally uses package delivery services for birth certificates.

  25. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 16, 2012 at 10:43 am #

    My sentiments exactly.

    reXteryalizer: This is just to wrong and horrible.

  26. avatar
    J. Potter January 16, 2012 at 11:00 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: A most curious motion to intervene in the Georgia case was filed:http://www.scribd.com/doc/76200089/Orly-Taitz-OSAH-in-Re-Ghostwriting-Taitz

    That *was* filed, Doc? Accusing Taitz of using a disbarred attorney to prepare docs?

  27. avatar
    Bob January 16, 2012 at 11:03 am #

    The whole GA thread disappeared from Fogbow.

  28. avatar
    Majority Will January 16, 2012 at 11:24 am #

    “OBAMA TAKES a little NEW BORN innocent child. BORN. ALIVE sTabS it iN the head SUCKs ITS BRAINS OUT.”

    “I also have always liked the monster within idea. I like the zombies being us. Zombies are the blue-collar monsters.”

    – George A. Romero

    CDC – Emergency Preparedness and Response – Zombie Apocalypse:
    http://www.bt.cdc.gov/socialmedia/zombies_blog.asp

  29. avatar
    Judge Mental January 16, 2012 at 12:05 pm #

    Bob: The whole GA thread disappeared from Fogbow.

    So have the Alabama, Mississippi and Illinois challenge threads. Maybe they’re doing some technical stuff as there don’t seem to be any posts in the remaining Eligibility Lawsuits topics since Saturday and some back up work was being done on Sunday.

    Ironically, the non availability of the Georgia thread probably denies Oily more than any Obots as she’s not getting access to sound advice and tips…..arf arf!

  30. avatar
    Majority Will January 16, 2012 at 12:08 pm #

    Judge Mental: So have the Alabama, Mississippi and Illinois challenge threads. Maybe they’re doing some technical stuff as there don’t seem to be any posts in the remaining Eligibility Lawsuits topics since Saturday and some back up work was being done on Sunday.

    Ironically, the non availability of the Georgia thread probably denies Oily more than any Obots as she’s not getting access to sound advice and tips…..arf arf!

    Birthers will blame Justia.

    😀

  31. avatar
    Bernard January 16, 2012 at 12:40 pm #

    One of these self-styled experts decided that the Obama birth certificate must be a fake by individually comparing the typing and coming to the conclusion that SOME letters were typed on a different typewriter.

    I bothered to doublecheck his work. First, he was using the 2008 “short form” for this analysis, so it doesn’t apply to the “long form” made public in 2011. Second, the short form was obviously photocopied from a bound volume with the pages fastened at the left edge, so there is distortion of the letters where the paper is bent near the left margin; this “expert” based a lot of his findings on the very letters that were distorted at this margin. While he could pick out certain letters that apparently didn’t match the rest of the typing, those standout letters are in the midst of words in which the other letters were clearly typed with the same machine as the rest of the b/c. Third, the FBI and other document analysts have catalogs of the typefaces available on hundreds of different typewriter models – it follows that this “expert” would – if he really were an expert – be able to identify the typewriter(s) involved in producing the b/c, but he didn’t. I am of the belief that the differences between typewriters would have been much more conspicuous if two machines had actually been used.

    Since the Dan Rather business in 2004, everybody imagines himself a documents expert.

  32. avatar
    y_p_w January 16, 2012 at 1:03 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: While it is common for states to offer expedited shipping (FedEx usually), Hawaii doesn’t seem to do this.

    Neither do many jurisdictions in California. Vitalchek does (along with some of the other 3rd party services) offer expedited shipping for many California jurisdictions, but then you’d run into a “chain of custody” issue since they would be sealing the envelope and not the vital records office. Pretty much all of the routine birth certificate requests are sent via 1st class mail and I rarely hear of any vital records offices that charge separately for mailing fees. California is also a pain if you need to order by mail. The request has to be notarized with a notary inspecting a photo ID, along with a statement of relationship to the registrant. That’s typically another $10, even if one uses Vitalchek. Hawaii isn’t quite as stringent. All they require is a photocopy of a government issued photo ID of the requestor with a statement of relationship.

  33. avatar
    y_p_w January 16, 2012 at 1:09 pm #

    Bernard: One of these self-styled experts decided that the Obama birth certificate must be a fake by individually comparing the typing and coming to the conclusion that SOME letters were typed on a different typewriter. I bothered to doublecheck his work. First, he was using the 2008 “short form” for this analysis, so it doesn’t apply to the “long form” made public in 2011. Second, the short form was obviously photocopied from a bound volume with the pages fastened at the left edge, so there is distortion of the letters where the paper is bent near the left margin; this “expert” based a lot of his findings on the very letters that were distorted at this margin. While he could pick out certain letters that apparently didn’t match the rest of the typing, those standout letters are in the midst of words in which the other letters were clearly typed with the same machine as the rest of the b/c. Third, the FBI and other document analysts have catalogs of the typefaces available on hundreds of different typewriter models – it follows that this “expert” would – if he really were an expert – be able to identify the typewriter(s) involved in producing the b/c, but he didn’t. I am of the belief that the differences between typewriters would have been much more conspicuous if two machines had actually been used.Since the Dan Rather business in 2004, everybody imagines himself a documents expert.

    What?

    The so-called “short form” or abstract is output generated straight from a laser printer using some sort of custom printing program that generates everything except the certification stamp, the date, and the seal. The printing program generates the border , the prima facie message at the bottom, and the image of the state seal at the top. There is no typewriter. It’s the same all caps font used throughout the document. The short form we know of for Obama was also from 2007.

  34. avatar
    Sef January 16, 2012 at 1:10 pm #

    Bernard: Second, the short form was obviously photocopied from a bound volume with the pages fastened at the left edge, so there is distortion of the letters where the paper is bent near the left margin;

    The LFBC is the one copied from a bound volume. The COLB was produced by a laser printer onto security paper; it was not photocopied. Are you confusing the effects of photographing the COLB.

    As I mentioned when the LFBC came out I think the process the DOH followed was to scan the original from the bound volume, rectify the image (Photoshop?), crop it and print it onto security paper. Since making certified copies of the LFBC is not standard practice I doubt they have a machine to automatically do this and they improvised. Note that the creation of a PDF is not necessary at any step in this process as the high res image is all that is necessary.

  35. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 16, 2012 at 1:18 pm #

    That’s not how VitalChek works. VitalChek prints the FedEx label remotely at the VR office and the jurisdiction actually ships it. VitalChek basically does three things for their not insignificant fee: take the order, verify the identity of the requester, and guarantee payment. They don’t physically handle any birth certificates.

    y_p_w: Vitalchek does (along with some of the other 3rd party services) offer expedited shipping for many California jurisdictions, but then you’d run into a “chain of custody” issue since they would be sealing the envelope and not the vital records office.

  36. avatar
    J. Potter January 16, 2012 at 1:34 pm #

    Sef: (Photoshop?),

    Sef,

    Oh pleasepleaseplease do not make this suggestion! You’ll have the birthers all a’lathered up.

    The presence of Photoshop in an archive would strike me as odd; what else would they use it for? Most scanning software will easily make any necessary color corrections and handle the cropping.

  37. avatar
    Goat Rodeo Rider January 16, 2012 at 1:43 pm #

    GeorgetownJD: Ah, a joke.You made a funny.

    Tough crowd.

  38. avatar
    Sef January 16, 2012 at 1:54 pm #

    J. Potter: Most scanning software will easily make any necessary color corrections and handle the cropping.

    True. The point was that the book was not laid directly on a copier platen and the print made. There was intermediate processing, whatever the s/w.

  39. avatar
    G January 16, 2012 at 2:06 pm #

    Well…that was clearly the post of an escaped mental patient off their meds…

    reXteryalizer: This is just to wrong and horrible. Please stand for Loving Children and the USA

  40. avatar
    G January 16, 2012 at 2:13 pm #

    Wow! Risenhoover is sure off his rocker!

    Not sure what the point of any of those various HI territory citings had to do with anything… he certainly didn’t make any clear point I could see of where he was going with that.

    Interesting too that he starts off with worrying about CEL3 still being Orly’s “ghostwriter”. That was true several years back…but their “relationship falling out” was a pretty ugly thing. “A day late and a dollar short”, as they say.

    Risenhoover is definitely missing some screws…

    Dr. Conspiracy: A most curious motion to intervene in the Georgia case was filed:http://www.scribd.com/doc/76200089/Orly-Taitz-OSAH-in-Re-Ghostwriting-Taitz

  41. avatar
    y_p_w January 16, 2012 at 3:34 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: That’s not how VitalChek works. VitalChek prints the FedEx label remotely at the VR office and the jurisdiction actually ships it. VitalChek basically does three things for their not insignificant fee: take the order, verify the identity of the requester, and guarantee payment. They don’t physically handle any birth certificates.

    OK. Maybe I’m confusing them with those rush passport services. They literally send in the passport application on behalf of the applicant, and take physical delivery of the passport to send on to the applicant.

    I haven’t used Vitalchek myself. I either got my kids BCs in person or by regular service. I rather liked picking them up. I like to keep an imporant document neat and wrinkle free. The BCs we got in the mail were wrinkled from the envelope being folded and/or bent at various times during transit.

  42. avatar
    Bernard January 16, 2012 at 4:56 pm #

    The “short form” or COLB was photocopied (either immediately or by an intervening microform) from a bound volume onto green security paper. The bend of the page into the binding of the volume runs along the left margin and the typewriting “analysis” is based on that short form.

    http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2011/06/50-year-typography-expert-obama-online.html

    You can see that typed letters that this “expert” thinks are phony come from the area distorted by the bend in the photographed page or else in the midst of words whose other typed letters are not considered suspicious. In any case, he doesn’t identify the model typewriter(s) used to type the short form.

  43. avatar
    G January 16, 2012 at 5:01 pm #

    There is very little reason to pay attention to any of the nonsense posted at ORYR. Just another cr@p nutter site, full of nonsense.

    Bernard: The “short form” or COLB was photocopied (either immediately or by an intervening microform) from a bound volume onto green security paper. The bend of the page into the binding of the volume runs along the left margin and the typewriting “analysis” is based on that short form.http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2011/06/50-year-typography-expert-obama-online.htmlYou can see that typed letters that this “expert” thinks are phony come from the area distorted by the bend in the photographed page or else in the midst of words whose other typed letters are not considered suspicious. In any case, he doesn’t identify the model typewriter(s) used to type the short form.

  44. avatar
    Whatever4 January 16, 2012 at 6:20 pm #

    Judge Mental: So have the Alabama, Mississippi and Illinois challenge threads. Maybe they’re doing some technical stuff as there don’t seem to be any posts in the remaining Eligibility Lawsuits topics since Saturday and some back up work was being done on Sunday.

    Ironically, the non availability of the Georgia thread probably denies Oily more than any Obots as she’s not getting access to sound advice and tips…..arf arf!

    Just a bit of housekeeping as the place was getting untidy. All the State ballot challenges are now in their own bin.

    . Board index ‹ President Obama’s Eligibility ‹ State Ballot Challenges

    Most folks use the “Active topics” links, and the GA et. al. challenges show up fine there.

  45. avatar
    Northland10 January 16, 2012 at 6:36 pm #

    reXteryalizer:

    This is just to wrong and horrible.

    I’ll go get the mop.

  46. avatar
    Keith January 16, 2012 at 7:28 pm #

    Bernard: The “short form” or COLB was photocopied (either immediately or by an intervening microform) from a bound volume onto green security paper.

    The “Hawai’ian Standard Form” Birth Certificate was printed by computer using a laser printer onto security paper in 2007.

    The “Non-Standard Form” Birth Certificate was photocopied from a bound volume onto security paper in 2011.

    There doesn’t seem to have been any microfiche (or microfilm) involvement what-so-ever.

  47. avatar
    Judge Mental January 16, 2012 at 7:50 pm #

    Whatever4: Just a bit of housekeeping as the place was getting untidy. All the State ballot challenges are now in their own bin. . Board index ‹ President Obama’s Eligibility ‹ State Ballot ChallengesMost folks use the “Active topics” links, and the GA et. al. challenges show up fine there.

    Thanks WV4!

  48. avatar
    mimi January 16, 2012 at 7:57 pm #

    Doc, you posted about Rivenhoover before. A long time ago. He’s kinda… nutz.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/06/new-argument-that-obama-is-not-a-natural-born-citizen/

    If you check his scribd account, he does this all the time.

  49. avatar
    mimi January 16, 2012 at 7:58 pm #

    Risenhoover. Sorry for the tpyo. 🙁

  50. avatar
    mimi January 16, 2012 at 8:03 pm #

    More on Risenhoover from the comments thread at this post:
    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/08/honolulu-prepares-for-orlys-attack/#comment-131678

  51. avatar
    G January 16, 2012 at 8:38 pm #

    Good recall mimi!

    mimi: More on Risenhoover from the comments thread at this post:http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/08/honolulu-prepares-for-orlys-attack/#comment-131678

  52. avatar
    Sterngard Friegen January 16, 2012 at 8:56 pm #

    Doc, in an otherwise excellent post, with excellent follow up posts, I’d make one correction: I would put the words “tort reform” in quotes, because the statutes enacted were only purportedly for tort reform. Their real intent was to protect the moneyed from valid lawsuits by making such lawsuits harder to pursue.

  53. avatar
    jtmunkus January 16, 2012 at 10:02 pm #

    Tarrant: I feel bad for those taking the time and money to attend this for Orly – my guess is none of them will get to testify given she included none in her original witness list.

    I feel worse for the sap(s) who paid their own way to be Orly’s witness(es), than the ones who are flying on Orly’s dime.

  54. avatar
    reXteryalizer January 16, 2012 at 10:12 pm #

    The ONLY SHOVEL READY Jobs that Oboma has CREATED

    is DIGGING the Graves BURYINGt he MILLIONS of CHILDREN that Obomas Supporters have MURDERED

    ….PLEASE…. go to reXes NEW WebsiTe ~ ! Oboma *( Just like Adolf Hitler~~\oBOMA~~~ Demands ! — [ THE FINAL SOLUTION – for Un~Wanted Children

    Barak Obama is A MURDERER .~Torturing UNWANTED babys on DEATH ROE

    CLICK HERE http://obomlnation.webstarts.com/index.html

    OBOMA is Finished. He is NOT WORTHY of a Conspiracy Theory.

  55. avatar
    RuhRoh January 17, 2012 at 10:22 am #

    Orly’s made a strange post on her malware-infested website this morning titled THE OTHER SIDE IS PLAYING DIRTY:

    “I found out that the other side has started a campaign of defaming not only me, but also my witnesses, as well as contacting witnesses and trying to persuade them not to show up at trial. A known FBI informant, who was caught by a judge lying in another case, sent a defamatory letter to judge Malihi. Bottom line, the same usual dirt and scum, that we saw before. Please, stay strong, do not pay any attention to thugs, we will win at the end, criminals will go to prison.”

    Does anyone have any idea what she’s referencing? I assume this rant somehow pertains to her upcoming hearing in GA, but beyond that, I am lost.

  56. avatar
    Majority Will January 17, 2012 at 11:06 am #

    RuhRoh: . . . criminals will go to prison.

    Let’s hope so.

  57. avatar
    Horus January 17, 2012 at 11:37 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Maybe Obama’s attorney will present a birth certificate, but it will be a real one, not a picture.

    I think that’s a guarantee.
    He’s probably itching to pull that out of his briefcase!

  58. avatar
    Horus January 17, 2012 at 11:46 am #

    reXteryalizer: arack Hussein Obama II ( Who hates American Values ) who is A ” SELF

    PROCLAIMED Enemy” ~of responsible, Morally Conscious HARD WORKING Americans.

    Do you even know what the term Self Proclaimed means?
    I don’t recall Obama EVER making that proclamation.
    Get a clue.

  59. avatar
    Horus January 17, 2012 at 11:51 am #

    JD Reed: How about videoconferencing between the Georgia court and the Hawaii Department of Health? A Hawaii official could hold up to the camera a copy of the birth certificiate. Or they could bring the bound volume to the camera, take a close up of the original to show to the Georgia court.

    The court MUST accept the Certified Copy of Obama’s BC, no ifs ands or buts about it.
    No jumping through hoops is necessary.

  60. avatar
    Horus January 17, 2012 at 12:29 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: A most curious motion to intervene in the Georgia case was filed:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/76200089/Orly-Taitz-OSAH-in-Re-Ghostwriting-Taitz

    I can’t believe that this is NOT a joke.

  61. avatar
    Armano Dippolopolus January 17, 2012 at 12:39 pm #

    Horus: The court MUST accept the Certified Copy of Obama’s BC, no ifs ands or buts about it.
    No jumping through hoops is necessary.

    Prima Facie evidence is contravened when an anomaly is shown. For example, a copy of the original birth record has signatures of three witnesses attesting to the factual data “accepted” by the Hawai’i DoH. The COLB does not have signatures of the witnesses attesting to the factual data on the record “filed” by the Hawai’i DoH.

    If the Defendant would show up at the Hearing, then Plaintiff’s could ask the Defendant why the witnesses withdrew their attestation shown on the original birth record. Did they discover fraud after the fact and ask a Court in Hawai’i to seal and archive the document because they will not attest to the data on the document?

    Which witness demanded their name and sworn statement on the original be withdrawn? Was it the hospital administrator or the delivery doctor or both? Without a knowledgeable witness about the situation, only a complete audit of the birth records on file with Hawai’i DoH; much to the disappointment of AAG Nagamire.

  62. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm #

    Sven, I remembered you being smarter than that.

    Armano Dippolopolus: For example, a copy of the original birth record has signatures of three witnesses attesting to the factual data “accepted” by the Hawai’i DoH. The COLB does not have signatures of the witnesses attesting to the factual data on the record “filed” by the Hawai’i DoH.

  63. avatar
    Bernard January 17, 2012 at 5:29 pm #

    I STAND CORRECTED. And I can see how frustrating was my repeated error.

    I had confused the long form (the one with the signatures) with the short form (the computer printout) … primarily because the long form was also only one page long.

    The purported typewriter analysis was of the “long form” and otherwise it has the same defects I already mentioned.

    The short form was printed directly by computer onto green security paper and its image is completely flat. The long form was photocopied from a bound book and it is the long form that shows the page being bent at the left margin with the resultant distortion.

    But Armano is wrong about prima facie evidence and the signatures being withdrawn, etc. Hawaii law – the sections are cited explicitly on the short form – makes the short form produced by the computer the equivalent in its evidentiary legal weight to the original long form, not prima facie but as conclusive evidence of the information set forth in the short form. Further, no witness signatures were “withdrawn” — the short form does not have any provision for signatures; the signatures appear and were expected to appear only on the original 1961 long form – and they include (1) Mama Obama (2) one of the hospital doctors and (3) one of the people at the Hawaiian Dept of Health which received and archived this report. At least two of those three were deceased by the time the data on the birth certificate was digitized in the Health Dept computers.

    The short form has an impression seal and a rubber stamp on the back attesting that it was produced by the Hawaiian Health Dept from their digitized records, and this is sufficient proof that it is an official copy of an official record kept on file. As I said, Hawaii law makes the short form satisfactory evidence in court.

    Besides the birth certificates there is a great deal more contemporary evidence of Obama’s birth in Hawaii, including the announcements in two Honolulu newspapers, a contemporary statement by one of the attending obstetricians, and the recollection of the current Governor who was then a neighbor of the Obama family. Considerably more evidence that we have regarding the birth of almost any other President!

  64. avatar
    y_p_w January 17, 2012 at 5:34 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Sven, I remembered you being smarter than that.

    Yeah – I guess they came out with these computer generated forms (I’ve seen that they’ve been using them since the early 90s) and changed policy in 2001 (that only these forms are issued) just because the named “witnesses” objected on one birth certificate back in 1961.

  65. avatar
    Arthur January 17, 2012 at 5:35 pm #

    Doc, your memory must be better than mine!

    Dr. Conspiracy: Sven, I remembered you being smarter than that.

  66. avatar
    y_p_w January 17, 2012 at 5:44 pm #

    The other thing Taitz asked for was the microform of the original document as well as the original document itself. The thing she cited was that he already released a reproduction of it publicly, so the logic is that the original is now somehow in the public domain. I don’t get how she thinks a collection of unrelated document images is going to be relevant If I’m not mistaken, there is medical information in the complete original vital record. I thought it wasn’t there at one time, but I now recall that there was additional medical information. On my kid’s certified birth certificate copies, there’s a thick black line that serves as the marker to deliberately cut information out of the certified copy. I’ve seen images of other California birth certificates, and it’s the same for all of them past a certain timeframe.

  67. avatar
    Horus January 17, 2012 at 5:53 pm #

    Armano Dippolopolus: Prima Facie evidence is contravened when an anomaly is shown. For example, a copy of the original birth record has signatures of three witnesses attesting to the factual data “accepted” by the Hawai’i DoH. The COLB does not have signatures of the witnesses attesting to the factual data on the record “filed” by the Hawai’i DoH.

    Are you really that stupid?

    The COLB says right at the bottom “This copy serves as Prima Facie evidence of the fact of birth in ANY court proceeding”. PERIOD!

    I added emphasis on any.

  68. avatar
    Arthur January 17, 2012 at 5:55 pm #

    Bernard:

    So you’re saying that Sven’s “anomaly” is actually common practice and not an irregularity? How unusual for a birther to misrepresent the truth! One could hardly believe that a man who uses multiple screen names in a bumbling attempt to hide his identity would ever lie. It’s shocking.

    Armano Dippolopolus: Prima Facie evidence is contravened when an anomaly is shown. For example, a copy of the original birth record has signatures of three witnesses attesting to the factual data “accepted” by the Hawai’i DoH. The COLB does not have signatures of the witnesses attesting to the factual data on the record “filed” by the Hawai’i DoH.

    Bernard: Further, no witness signatures were “withdrawn” — the short form does not have any provision for signatures; the signatures appear and were expected to appear only on the original 1961 long form

  69. avatar
    Bernard January 17, 2012 at 6:14 pm #

    I am not too sure where “Sven” wrote about this, but the short form (the computerized form) clearly doesn’t have any blanks for signatures, so it didn’t intend to have signatures …. for anybody’s b/c. If Obama’s short form had spaces for signatures but those were somehow left blank then there might be some “anomaly” but there isn’t so there wasn’t.

    I might add that, years ago, I was a passport adjudicator at the the US State Dept Passport Office in Rockefeller Center, NYC. I saw many thousands of birth certificates, and they included certificates from every State, some US territories, virtually every decade of the preceding century, an enormous variety of forms and styles – and lesser documents including short forms, hospital birth documents, baptismal certificates, etc. So I know whereof I speak: Obama’s short form (and, definitely, the long form) are both (1) genuine and (2) sufficient proof of US citizenship by birth to get him a US passport no questions asked.

  70. avatar
    y_p_w January 17, 2012 at 6:32 pm #

    Bernard: I am not too sure where “Sven” wrote about this, but the short form (the computerized form) clearly doesn’t have any blanks for signatures, so it didn’t intend to have signatures …. for anybody’s b/c. If Obama’s short form had spaces for signatures but those were somehow left blank then there might be some “anomaly” but there isn’t so there wasn’t.I might add that, years ago, I was a passport adjudicator at the the US State Dept Passport Office in Rockefeller Center, NYC. I saw many thousands of birth certificates, and they included certificates from every State, some US territories, virtually every decade of the preceding century, an enormous variety of forms and styles – and lesser documents including short forms, hospital birth documents, baptismal certificates, etc. So I know whereof I speak: Obama’s short form (and, definitely, the long form) are both (1) genuine and (2) sufficient proof of US citizenship by birth to get him a US passport no questions asked.

    Hasn’t the State Dept tightened up some of the standards?

    They now require the names of both parents. I’ve heard of the old California Abstract of Birth being used to get a passport, but that doesn’t have an embossed seal. Now the hospital forms and baptismal certificates are only secondary. Of course the Hawaii COLB meets all the current State Dept standards.

    Did you ever recall seeing an old Territory of Hawaii birth certificate? I’ve seen a few images. I’m also guessing it was a lot easier to verify federal documents, like a naturalization certificate or report of birth abroad.

    I have experience with passport services completely manhandling my docs. They returned my certificate folded in thirds when I was hoping it would be returned flat. My wife and I just applied for my kid’s passport and passport card. I made sure to fold a copy of his birth certificate carefully in thirds so they’d have no excuse to mail if back folded haphazardly. I have experience that toner rubs off where paper is creased, and I folded it in such a way that there was no crease over any toner. All the information was centered in the middle of the paper. I was also a bit worried since the issue date was machine stamped right over the certification text. I could read the date, but I wasn’t sure if an adjudicator was going to say “I can’t read that” without making an effort.

  71. avatar
    Bernard January 17, 2012 at 7:25 pm #

    The State Dept tightened up standards while I was there many years ago — it stopped accepting church baptismal certificates and hospital certificates cold. We had been getting dozens of warnings about different churches being robbed of their blank forms and impression seals, and similarly of hospitals (in the Virgin Islands, one weekend, some island burglars very leisurely made off with the health dept’s office safe). Since then, of course, home computers have become popular and sophisticated, so evidentiary standards have undoubtedly been tightened further. (In the case of people with serious evidence problems, the senior staff at the passport office can suggest and authorize alternatives to the stringent preferences.)

    A few words of advice regarding passports & passport applications: You would be well advised to apply for a US passport as soon as convenient, even if you have no travel plans. Should there be any sort of problem about your citizenship evidence it is to your great advantage to have that smoothed over early, before relatives die and family papers are gone for good. Once you are on a US passport (even if it was on someone else’s passport — before 1973 minor siblings and married couples could be on shared passports) the State Dept has a record of your proof of citizenship; provide the old passport or as much info about it as possible and the Passport Office can look up the old files and issue you a new one.

    Yes, either of Obama’s birth certificates would be sufficient evidence of his citizenship. The green security paper came into vogue about the time color copiers became available, as a method to frustrate forgeries and alterations. (Some people crank about the insistence that the passport state their true birthdate and hair color, which are required by international agreements – but US passports are Extremely Desired by all sorts of criminals and the US citizens carrying them would be in terrible danger if the passports ever got a reputation for being sloppy about identifying details.)

    And, yes, I am sorry that valuable family documents were damaged by the passport office. We had to work very fast, with a ton of papers, and (this is significant) very few choices about what sort of envelopes we had to send stuff back. I would suggest that anyone concerned about handling of delicate or valuable documents Personally Apply at one of the 20 or so passport offices in the US, in which case their documents will be handed back to them on the spot, rather than sending them by mail.

  72. avatar
    Keith January 17, 2012 at 7:54 pm #

    Bernard: I had confused the long form (the one with the signatures) with the short form (the computer printout) … primarily because the long form was also only one page long.

    I am lobbying to stop using the ‘short form’/’long form’ terminology. Hawai’i has only one form: the ‘Standard Form’. The one Obama asked for and published in 2011 is a ‘non-Standard Form’.

    Other states may have a long form and a short form. Hawai’i does not.

  73. avatar
    y_p_w January 17, 2012 at 8:03 pm #

    Bernard: The State Dept tightened up standards while I was there many years ago — it stopped accepting church baptismal certificates and hospital certificates cold. We had been getting dozens of warnings about different churches being robbed of their blank forms and impression seals, and similarly of hospitals (in the Virgin Islands, one weekend, some island burglars very leisurely made off with the health dept’s office safe). Since then, of course, home computers have become popular and sophisticated, so evidentiary standards have undoubtedly been tightened further. (In the case of people with serious evidence problems, the senior staff at the passport office can suggest and authorize alternatives to the stringent preferences.)A few words of advice regarding passports & passport applications: You would be well advised to apply for a US passport as soon as convenient, even if you have no travel plans. Should there be any sort of problem about your citizenship evidence it is to your great advantage to have that smoothed over early, before relatives die and family papers are gone for good. Once you are on a US passport (even if it was on someone else’s passport — before 1973 minor siblings and married couples could be on shared passports) the State Dept has a record of your proof of citizenship; provide the old passport or as much info about it as possible and the Passport Office can look up the old files and issue you a new one.Yes, either of Obama’s birth certificates would be sufficient evidence of his citizenship. The green security paper came into vogue about the time color copiers became available, as a method to frustrate forgeries and alterations. (Some people crank about the insistence that the passport state their true birthdate and hair color, which are required by international agreements – but US passports are Extremely Desired by all sorts of criminals and the US citizens carrying them would be in terrible danger if the passports ever got a reputation for being sloppy about identifying details.)And, yes, I am sorry that valuable family documents were damaged by the passport office. We had to work very fast, with a ton of papers, and (this is significant) very few choices about what sort of envelopes we had to send stuff back. I would suggest that anyone concerned about handling of delicate or valuable documents Personally Apply at one of the 20 or so passport offices in the US, in which case their documents will be handed back to them on the spot, rather than sending them by mail.

    Thanks for the detailed comments.

    The Puerto Rico birth certificate situation was absolutely crazy. I read that every school and almost every activity group that a child could belong to would keep a certified BC on file. It was a way of life that parents would order dozens of copies of their kids’ birth certificates and dole them out as needed. Part of the problem included people selling their birth certificates, but theft of the files from school administration was the biggest problem. It was generally easier for someone from Latin America to take the identity of a person named in a fraudulently obtained PR birth certificate. I guess it was so bad that they’re considered invalid, with two extensions due to the lag in getting out hundreds of thousands of new ones.

    http://www.prfaa.com/birthcertificates/
    http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=45e3285ca77fa210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=c94e6d26d17df110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD
    http://articles.courant.com/2010-10-28/news/hc-puerto-rico-birth-certificates-10220101028_1_certificates-documents-applications

    Of course I’ve got my passport and passport card now. I don’t particularly like the rule that I have to send in both if I’m just renewing one. I’ve also read about some who sent in a passport book to get a passport card as a “renewal” and had their passport books cancelled when they should have been returned intact.

    I’ve also noticed that some birthers have homed in on the State Dept verbiage that “some abstracts may not be acceptable” when it’s fairly common knowledge among acceptance offices that they’re targeting the non-embossed California form that’s no longer issued and the Texas form due to rampant midwife fraud. For some reason Texas still issues their abstract; apparently any office can issue one in minutes, but the long form may take extra time. I’m not sure about the green cross-hatched security paper. I thought one of the features is that the dyes smear when a solvent is applied to try and remove inks or toner. In California, there’s a standard security paper style, although there are several vendors who each have their own minor variations. It’s got an engraved Intaglio border (you can feel the ink), watermarks, color-gradient background, and those VOID ghosts with B&W photocopies. I understand that most of the vendors also were at one time big in producing stock certificates and paper bonds.

    By the way, the federal passport agencies don’t accept routine applications any more (just expedited requests), although they did routine ones when I applied. I actual went in person to the San Francisco Passport Agency, and they wouldn’t give me my documents back at the counter. I got them back in the mail. My first passport was one with an actual photo under a laminate. I remember they used to have a photo glued to the page with both embossed together. I guess it was difficult, but not impossible to convincingly place a new photo. The Polaroid photo susprising hasn’t faded after all these years. I guess the new ones are scanned and the digital image is imprinted in color ink. They also only require one photo now, and the same scanned image can go onto a passport and passport card.

  74. avatar
    Bernard January 17, 2012 at 8:56 pm #

    The abstract of a birth certificate was also used in NYC, at least until fairly recently, and probably many other jurisdictions. Essentially it was a very short document, omitting a great deal of the details of the official b/c, but setting forth the baby’s name, date of birth, and names of parents (and the serial number of the official b/c). It did not have a seal nor was it on security paper. It primarily served as a free souvenir but also a signal to the parents that, if an error existed, they should contact the Health Dept right away to have the correction made to the official b/c before it was perpetuated on microfilm. As an example, in a great many instances the parents didn’t decide on the child’s name until they were home from the hospital (or they changed their mind about their first choice).

    Although, as a generality, the abstract was obviously correct and genuine, since it wasn’t the “certificate” it wasn’t supposed to be accepted by the Passport Office (although I still remember once the family came in with the abstract in its original envelope with the postmark showing it was sent within a couple of weeks of the birth and the adjudicator made an “executive decision” to accept it).

    Puerto Rican b/cs were ALWAYS a problem that had to be sent to a Senior Adjudicator. At the Rockefeller Center office there were at least a hundred such instances every day, and this is over and above the many instances of parents who spoke only Spanish. I suggested we set up a line especially for both Spanish-speaking & Puerto Rican cases, with a suitable sign in both languages, so those people didn’t kill an enormous amount of time in one line and then get sent to another long line. But my suggestion was vetoed.

  75. avatar
    NBC January 17, 2012 at 9:01 pm #

    Barry Ragsdale is on Reality Check Radio, explaining why state court is not the place to determine Presidential eligibility as this is not a State function.

    Makes sense.

  76. avatar
    y_p_w January 17, 2012 at 9:12 pm #

    You know, with all this talk about paper, what I was thinking the first time I saw Obama’s COLB issued in 2007 was Disneyland’s old ticket books. They were produced by Globe ticket using their special safety paper with a wavy pattern along with Globe Ticket logos.

    http://vintagedisneylandtickets.blogspot.com/2010/08/magic-kingdom-club-membership-card-1967.html

    As for the paper that the Hawaii Dept of Health uses, I don’t think there’s anything all that unusual about it. It’s nothing unique like the Intaglio bordered paper that several states use. I doubt that Hawaii is too worried about anyone trying to steal the paper (which can be a problem in some vital records offices), since it’s easily available. Those Intaglio papers have serial numbers and apparently require a tight chain of custody. They’re probably more worried about someone getting hold of their printing software or the certification stamp, or trying to modify an record that’s been issued. It looks like it might just be something similar to this:

    http://www.simpsonsecuritypapers.com/design.asp

    The one that matches the pattern closest is Simpson DesignSecure™ Basketweave Green.

    Our security products are chemically sensitive to a variety of document altering chemicals including polar and non-polar solvents. This feature produces a visible stain or starburst reaction on
    the paper when altering chemicals are applied. When bleach or ink eradicators are applied the colored pattern will disappear. DesignSecure™ products also contain “invisible fluorescent fibers” that become visible when viewed under an ultraviolet light source. This feature provides covert protection from counterfeiting because the fibers do not copy or scan and will not be visible in a counterfeit document.

    Apparently it’s not that expensive. I saw prices as little as $144 for a case of 5000 sheets online.

  77. avatar
    y_p_w January 17, 2012 at 9:30 pm #

    Bernard:P>Puerto Rican b/cs were ALWAYS a problem that had to be sent to a Senior Adjudicator. At the Rockefeller Center office there were at least a hundred such instances every day, and this is over and above the many instances of parents who spoke only Spanish. I suggested we set up a line especially for both Spanish-speaking & Puerto Rican cases, with a suitable sign in both languages, so those people didn’t kill an enormous amount of time in one line and then get sent to another long line. But my suggestion was vetoed.

    Puerto Ricans in New York City. Who would have thunk it? I’m pretty sure they’d have little problem in Miami, which also has a pretty large Puerto Rican population. I remember checking in at Miami international Airport, where they didn’t need any special Spanish speaking lines. Every single employee spoke Spanish, including non-Hispanics.

    Again – you mentioned going to a passport office. They don’t accept an application without an expedited fee, which is $60 now, plus overnight delivery if requested. Also in my experience they insisted on keeping the docs.

    http://travel.state.gov/passport/npic/agencies/agencies_913.html

    The Expedited Fee is required for each application submitted in person at a Passport Agency or Center.

  78. avatar
    Arthur January 17, 2012 at 9:51 pm #

    Which is why it will be ignored by those who most need to hear it.

    NBC: Makes sense.

  79. avatar
    G January 17, 2012 at 10:14 pm #

    I second your motion!

    Keith: I am lobbying to stop using the short form’/’long form’ terminology. Hawai’i has only one form: the Standard Form’. The one Obama asked for and published in 2011 is a non-Standard Form’. Other states may have a long form and a short form. Hawai’i does not.

  80. avatar
    G January 17, 2012 at 10:17 pm #

    Hi Horus.

    Sad to say, it is not a joke. The author of that Motion to Intervene has quite his own long and storied history as a kook. He’s been off his rocker for a long, long time.

    Horus: Dr. Conspiracy: A most curious motion to intervene in the Georgia case was filed:
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/76200089/Orly-Taitz-OSAH-in-Re-Ghostwriting-Taitz
    I can’t believe that this is NOT a joke.

  81. avatar
    Majority Will January 17, 2012 at 10:27 pm #

    NBC:
    Barry Ragsdale is on Reality Check Radio, explaining why state court is not the place to determine Presidential eligibility as this is not a State function.

    Makes sense.

    Yeah, but birther morons have never been a fan of common sense. Or reality. Or fairness. Or tolerance . . .

  82. avatar
    y_p_w January 17, 2012 at 10:32 pm #

    My understanding right now for NYC is that the default BC is a full page abstract on security paper complete with seal. I remember when Donald Trump was going through the motions, he first displayed his hospital souvenir, then the full certified abstract, and finally an old certified photostat of the original. The application says that a “vault copy” can be requested in person or requested online via VitalChek. They don’t mention anything about getting one via mailed-in application, although there’s a comment area in the application.

    http://home2.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/vr/vr-online-order.shtml
    http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/vr/birth1.pdf

    They still issue a free copy for newborns, but I’m guessing it’s the same fully valid abstract that they issue for a fee.

    http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/vr/vrbappl.shtml

    Newborn Certificates & Social Security Cards

    Birth certificates for newborns are automatically mailed about a month after the child’s birth at no charge. We cannot provide information about the status of your child’s certificate until three weeks after the child’s birth.

    I’m wondering if NYC is the only city jurisdiction in the US where a city not only maintains its own vital records office, but where they don’t forward the originals to a county or state archive. And yes I realize that NYC is unique in that it’s composed of five counties.

  83. avatar
    G January 18, 2012 at 12:00 am #

    Yep… some folks are just beyond reach of reality or sanity anymore…

    Majority Will: Yeah, but birther morons have never been a fan of common sense. Or reality. Or fairness. Or tolerance . . .

  84. avatar
    Jim F January 18, 2012 at 6:35 am #

    Can you for a moment consider a situation (not Obama’s) where the mother does not know the name of the person who fathered her child. There are many ways for this to happen including rape and donor sperm.
    The mother cannot know if the father is an American citizen and cannot even post a fathers name on the birth record.. Assuming that the child is born on US soil can that child ever aspire to be president. According to birther logic the answer is “no”. Am I missing something?

  85. avatar
    Keith January 18, 2012 at 6:41 am #

    Jim F:
    Can you for a moment consider a situation (not Obama’s) where the mother does not know the name of the person who fathered her child. There are many ways for this to happen including rape and donor sperm.
    The mother cannot know if the father is an American citizen and cannot even post a fathers name on the birth record..Assuming that the child is born on US soil can that child ever aspire to be president. According to birther logic the answer is “no”. Am I missing something?

    Nope.

  86. avatar
    JD Reed January 18, 2012 at 9:30 am #

    DNA testing.

  87. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy January 18, 2012 at 9:47 am #

    Yes, you are missing something. You are not allowed to use “birther” and “logic” in the same sentence.

    Jim F: Assuming that the child is born on US soil can that child ever aspire to be president. According to birther logic the answer is “no”. Am I missing something?

  88. avatar
    The Magic M January 18, 2012 at 10:01 am #

    Jim F: According to birther logic the answer is “no”.

    Indeed.

    Another interesting hypothetical question:

    In the parallel universe where the Vattelists are right, what happens if a child has a different biological father than legal father (in one of the birfer fantasies: if Obama’s biological father was Malcolm X)? Whose citizenship would count?

    (The birfer answer is: that of the father who is listed on the BC, however I think that’s just idle speculation based on the desire to always choose the option that makes Obama ineligible. If Obama’s BC showed Malcolm X as the father but evidence showed that Obama Sr. was the father, they’d claim the biological father counts.)

    In my country, a child born within wedlock legally is the husband’s child, even if he claims it cannot be his. (The father doesn’t have a legal right to a DNA test against the mother’s will, his only hope of not having to pay alimony after divorce would be to prove his infertility.)

    How does US law see this?
    If a DNA test proved the mother’s husband wasn’t the father, does this change anything?
    Would the Founders have cared for the legal father or the biological father?

    All these thoughts make it all the more obvious that Vattelists can’t be right in this universe. Since the Founders didn’t forsee DNA testing, they necessarily would have meant “the mother’s testimony is enough proof”. Something that birthers, in turn, would never accept. And they would be correct in part, because that certainly isn’t a “strong protection” of the office. “Yeah, I had a one night stand with my neighbour’s son, it cannot possibly the child of the British King, honest!”.

  89. avatar
    y_p_w January 18, 2012 at 11:17 am #

    The Magic M: Indeed.

    Another interesting hypothetical question:

    In the parallel universe where the Vattelists are right, what happens if a child has a different biological father than legal father (in one of the birfer fantasies: if Obama’s biological father was Malcolm X)? Whose citizenship would count?

    (The birfer answer is: that of the father who is listed on the BC, however I think that’s just idle speculation based on the desire to always choose the option that makes Obama ineligible. If Obama’s BC showed Malcolm X as the father but evidence showed that Obama Sr. was the father, they’d claim the biological father counts.)

    Well – it’s unquestioned that Obama’s mother was the former Stanley Ann Dunham.

    I’m not sure how it all goes down. I know it’s possible to get an amended birth certificate to reflect the father when the father isn’t named on the initial BC. I would think in most states there can be a procedure to amend should there be evidence that it’s a different biological father.

    It really gets muddied here in California. I thought in California it’s possible for adoptive parents (even same sex now?) to have their names on an original filed birth certificates.

  90. avatar
    Hawaii Born January 18, 2012 at 1:02 pm #

    y_p_w: Did you ever recall seeing an old Territory of Hawaii birth certificate? I’ve seen a few images. I’m also guessing it was a lot easier to verify federal documents, like a naturalization certificate or report of birth a

    My mother, my 3 uncles, my grandfather, and my grandmother all have Territory of Hawaii Birth Certificates (all of them being born before 1959). There is no real difference between pre-1959 COLBs and after 1959 COLB’s except for the name change of the Hawaii from Territory to State of Hawaii.

    If I can find my grandfathers and/or grandmother’s COLB, I’ll get around to scanning them.