All the way back in November of 2008, we had claims that Barack Obama’s selective service registration, obtained directly from the Selective Service through FOIA mind you, was a fake. Debbie Schlussel was the main proponent of this theory that must have involved some heavy-duty conspiracy on the part of the government to have taken place as she suggests. Thanks to the Birther Debunkers for this image (click to enlarge).
At that time, conspiracy theorists focused on the “USPO” circular hand cancellation mark, claiming it should have been “USPS.” Since then other contemporary Hawaiian examples with “USPO” have been found, debunking that claim. What we did learn from this exercise is that Obama’s hand-canceled Selective Service registration form was stamped by an obsolete cancellation device that was still in use by a postal clerk in Honolulu (and long after).
Now the objection is the two-digit year on the stamp, when it should have been a 4-digit year. Again, we have something curious. I went through a couple of hundred old envelopes I have (I’m a stamp collector) and every circular hand cancel I found had a 4-digit year, even one from the 19th century!
However, postal regulations say that a 2-digit stamp is acceptable on metered mail:
The mailing date in meter indicia must meet the format standards in this section. The year must be represented by all four digits or by the last two digits. Mailers may print the indicia directly onto mailpieces or onto separate labels or tape affixed to mailpieces. The mailing date format used in the indicia is also subject to the following conditions.
Also, the “19” could have fallen out, or been too-far recessed to get ink. It’s certainly curious and very unusual, but to jump to allegations of fraud is unwarranted, and completely outside what one would expect from professional law enforcement.
I’m poking around for some other examples with the missing year, and if I find one, I’ll publish the results. There are hundreds of thousands of stamp collectors out there and it only takes one with an old Honolulu cover to blow Sheriff Joe out of the water on this point. My guess is that with 48 hours, someone will come up with an example.
Hey Doc something I noticed that I have not seen discussed before (or if I had I have forgotten it) Why is BHO’s signature dated July 30, 1980 and the post office stamp the day before?
In order for this to have been made in 2008, one would have to recreate the old form from 1980. To do so, one would have to have looked at archived forms from that era, most of` which would have a stamp that said USPS and 1980. A forger would have used the typical 1980 stamp as his template, not an atypical one. The fact that this one is atypical argues makes it less likely to be a forgery than one that looked perfect.
Quote Of The Day Nominee:
“In what is becoming a clear pattern for documents that are essential to the documentation of Obama’s life narrative, the selective service card isn’t just forged, it’s poorly forged.”
Just to taunt people looking at ti in the future, like Verna KL Lee signing her name with a “U.”
It was a thing people did back then, like phone booth stuffing and posting fake birth announcements in the paper.
Doc says: It’s certainly curious and very unusual, but to jump to allegations of fraud is unwarranted, and completely outside what one would expect from professional law enforcement.
What one would expect from professional law enforcement is that if they had a question about something at the Post Office they would have contacted the Post Office and asked them about the stamp and included the response in their report.
That they didn’t says more than we have time or space to deal with here.
Simple answer: The clerk forgot to change the date on the stamp.
Big conspiracy answer: It’s a forgery prepared by the Selective Service as part of a world wide, 50 year long conspiracy, involving hundreds if not thousands of people.
You choose which answer makes the most sense.
If a forger was under the impression that the date was given as two digits at the time, he would probably have centered them. But the spacing leaves room for the “19,” tending to indicate a faulty or poorly-inked stamp.
Several of the metering stamps I have found show two digits but yes, so far, despite a large variety of date stamps, few appear to have been 2 digits. Then again, I have so far found few USPO circular date stamps…
I figured that or the fact that POTUS didn’t know what day it was back then (what teenager does?), I was just curious if Doc (or anyone at Fogbow) had addressed it before. I was also surprised that the Posse didn’t make a big deal out of it.
Good question. Either Obama had the wrong date in his head or the clerk hadn’t set the stamp to the right date. This is a hand stamp, so it has to be set manually every day.
It’s not a mistake a forger would make 😉
That’s absolutely right.
My impression is that this particular document was not considered to be something handled with utmost precision. I mean, you’d gone there and said, “Hey, cannon fodder here!” Having done so was the key thing. Were they expecting someone to fraudulently present themselves for the draft?
How many documents can you think of where there’s actually an “ID / No ID” selection — and “No ID” was apparently perfectly acceptable? Of the various examples ORYR posted (link courtesy of gorefan on another thread), it looks like half of them had “No ID”
(And as long as I’m mentioning that: even though based on their own examples it seemed neither unusual nor important, ORYR still felt it notable to call out the “No ID” checkmark on Obama’s form, and it sure looks like they were trying to obscure that area on the other example docs.)
July 30, 1980 was a Wednesday.
Clearly the clerk was in on the conspiracy.
Would would would, hearsay
I am STILL unclear on the provenance of the registration form. Did Obama produce it? Or did some birther produce it at the same time they claimed forgery ????
Is this a McCain birth certficate issue (i.e., a birther-created forgery) or … is the copy itself actually legit ??
So far the fact that the two digits are ‘off center’ suggests to me that there were two additional digits which did not transfer. Would be interesting if the original shows any hints of this. The black and white copy is just too poor in quality.
I have seen several SS-forms close to Obama’s date range which show the full 1980, including USPO designation. So at least the USPO assertion has been laid to rest, now the missing two digits… Not much hear really.
Just found the answer @ http://wiki.birtherdebunkers.net/index.php?title=President_Obama%27s_Selective_Service_Registration
I do have a follow-up question.. the wiki site says “In November of 1980 Stephen Coffman, a retired Federal Law Enforcement Officer …”
Why was he doing a FOIA on Obama in 1980 ???
I strongly disagree. He, Lying Lucas Smith, most certainly could make that kind of mistake.
enablers glasses ‘ON’, gotta love these people.
Not only are the numbers off center, tsk, they’re inconsistently close to the edge of the circle from every angle compared to other 1980 stamps, and the 2 digits are closer together compared with other 1980 stamps.
So what did law enforcement showed? They cut the 2008 stamp and showed how 08 becomes 80 replicating the same effect we see in Obama’s SS Card. That’s how forensic analysts exposes criminals in court.
In a court of law, this is beyond reasonable doubt a forgery of the SS Card.
Yeah, well, we’ll see what a court thinks of it. Bring it the hell on. The courts have thrown out every piece of crap every Birfoon has offered to date, and every court has accepted BHO’s Hawaiian BC.
You birfoons are so dumb you think that showing how a document COULD have been forged proves that a particular document HAS been forged.
I could describe how your car could be built by hand, from raw materials. It would take twenty years or so, but you could do it. Does that prove your car WAS built by hand?
Morons. Bless their hearts.
Only in your dreams.
Forensic analysts don’t show what could have been done (wow, 08 can be turned into 80). No they have to show what was done, how it was done and then, if they have time, who did it and why.
That’s how it works in the real world.
Arpaio’s evidence had not been presented in any court
Huh, what an idiotic statement from this guy here; they showed that there is ‘probable cause’ it was a forgery not by proving the document could be forged, but by showing the document was probably forged..
The video showed what was done and how it was done with compelling reasons to believe it was an amateur forgery. You’re the one dreaming.
The document wasn’t probably forged. The investigation was probably rigged.
I have motive, method and opportunity.
Anyone with a grain of critical thinking could see the fallacy of that presentation. All they had to do was get ONE credentialed forensic document examiner to sign an affidavit that it was a probably forgery. One expert qualified to testify in court. Did they do it? No, they put on a tinker toy experiment by amateurs vetted by a person or persons unknown.
How many circular hand stamps have you personally examined?
Oh, none? Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.
I suggest that Sheriff Joe have the President indicted if he can. After all, he now has “proof” of a felony. If he does not immediately seek an indictment, I have it on good authority by Dr. Taitz that Sheriff Joe would be guilty of misprison of a felony.
I’m not happy about this being an issue. This is a trap for Republicans to fall into. But as someone inteterested in the truth, bring it on.
And just how do you think a sheriff can do that?
Well…there are these forums known as Grand Juries where prosecutors can present evidence and ask that a person be indicted…perhaps Sheriff Arpaio would like to present the evidence to a prosecutor, and convince them to organize a Grand Jury hearing and present the compelling evidence? BTW, I note that there was no sign of any prosecutor from Maricopa County at today’s press conference, one would think that if this investigation had uncovered compelling evidence that Sheriff Arpaio would already have convinced a prosecutor to snap into action…
What about the possibility that the flaw was with the ink pad. Perhaps somehow the ink was not uniformly distributed, even being almost dry in one spot, if that’s even possible. Either way, pad or stamp, the obviousness of it would not be missed by a forger who would focus on every detail in order to get them all right. So its presence does argue that such a thing could not be the deliberate work of a forger and must be assumed to have a mundane explanation.
So, you agree that he can’t.
My tongue in cheek suggestion was simply that for the chief law enforcement official in a county to call a press conference, announce a crime has been committed, and then do nothing further, is pretty strange. I doubt the sheriff will even present whatever “evidence” he has to a prosecutor, and this little side show will be ineffective in achieving any goal.
Yes, at least where I live, the sheriiff or police chief only calls a presser AFTER they have arrested their suspect and charged them. They certainly don’t call one to say, “The victim was murdered, we know who did it, but we aren’t going to do anything”. I suppose Arizona must have different laws.
How does this trap work? Why blame a chimera for your shortcomings?
The same way anyone else would: Persuade a majority of the House of Representatives to issue Articles of Impeachment. I have asked my state representative to ask Sheriff Arpaio some of Dr. C’s questions before the State Legislature.
You’re missing the point entirely. The sheriff cannot do it. He must ask someone, or a body with the actual power to do it. The sheriff just collects and presents evidence.
Mr. Reilly: I vote Democratic, because nothing less than the 1st Amendment is in peril:
“Only one Senate Republican — Olympia Snowe of Maine, who is retiring — voted against a truly horrible measure on Thursday that would have crippled the expansion of preventive health care in America. The amendment, which was attached to a highway bill, was defeated on a narrow 48-to-51 vote. But it showed once again how far from the mainstream Republicans have strayed in their relentless efforts to undermine the separation of church and state…”
Read on: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/02/opinion/a-bad-amendment-defeated.html
Not this Sheriff. He collected lies and fantasies, pumped them up to 200psi, wrapped them in glitter, and slipped them up the pre-lubricated butts of his gullible fans, knowing that these Birfoons would buy every word… based only on their insertion, not any sort of merit or reason.
So who do you think forged it and when and why?
The only possible 4 digit date stamp with “08” in it between 1980 and 2008 is 2008 itself.
The last possible 4 digit date stamp with a “08 or “80” in it prior to 1980 would have been 1908.
So if it was done in the way you suggest it was almost certainly done in 2008.
This document was released directly from the Selective Service System in 2008, not from the WH or Obama. In fact the WH was occupied by George Bush at the time and the Selective Service was operating under his administration.
Guess this goes even deeper than we thought eh Sherlock?
Has anyone come up with an intelligent reason why the “80” is out of place? Other than “does it matter” or name calling.
It isn’t out of place. The “19” failed to print due to wear. If the “19” were there, the date would be centered very nicely.
From what I saw and read the 80 is too close to the outer circle compared to a “typical stamp” with four digits. Let’s say for auguement sake that the 19 failed to print, how would that make the 80 off centered? Thanks for your response!
The 8 is more or less under the 9. Look, the entire form is an old form obviously. I have seen the current ones in post offices and they look nothing like that. So, why would someone recreate an entire perfect-looking form and then make a bad stamp.
Since the USPO became the USPS in 1970, we know the stamp had to be at least 10 years old. So it isn’t surprising it’s worn.
I think you are on to something. I found a Kenya BC (Obama’s?) that may help you.
Why do you assume that the stamp is a precision piece of equipment that would give every stamp identically to every other stamp in the country? The stamps were made so that the dates were changed my manually inserting and removing number blocks. Why do you assume there is no wiggle room in a manual stamp….particulary one that is at least 10 years old? And just how many manual stamps have you observed? The very tiny sampling provided to you by someone of questionable objectivity?
So what is your explanation? If we are going by the conspiracy theory de jur, then it is claimed that they took a legitmate stamp, took a 2008 cut and flippled it. So then if the 80 is too close to the edge, it has to be a function of the fact that the legitimate stamp lets it be that close, so it can’t be evidence of a fake. Then the only other option is that it is a complete forgery (perhaps another claim of “photoshopping”) so then the absence of the 19 can’t be evidence of a forgery because if you’re photoshopping it, why would you leave the 19 out?
And now we know why scams work. when the scammer is good, the scammed will resist every attempt to convince him that he was scammed.
it must be true, I was assured it was true, and the scammer could not possibly have done that, and I just can not believe that what you are telling me is true.
I trust him to do right and he would never do wrong.
Well, that certainly is a close description of the whole Cult of Birtherism and how it works.
Their ODS and susceptibility to paranoid conspiracy makes them easy marks for the scammers out there. That is quite obvious and evident.
However, the only clarification from what you wrote and what we see with the Birthers is that the scammer doesn’t even need to be good at their scam at all.
No, most of the Birther myths, lies and performance acts are fairly weak. Nigerian Prince “Send Money Now” scams come across more credibile than most of the wacky Birther claims and flimsy presentations.
So in the end, Birthers really take gullibility to an entirely new level. Birther scams that wouldn’t pass the smell test with a ten year old child will be readily and eagerly swallowed by most Birthers.
So, scammers pursuing Birther marks don’t even require a minimum threshold of credibility or skill in order to get their gullible Birther marks to bite. Which is why such a farcical flop such as Sheriff Joe’s “dog and pony show” plays well ONLY within the insular walls of Birtheristan and doesn’t come close to passing the smell test anywhere else.
WTF is wrong with you people?don’t you think for one minute that every presidential candidate is vetted? Can you imagine that the DNC tossed a candidate into the mix, not knowing if he was who he said he was? Can you imaging that the Secret Service said, “We don’t care if he’s legally the president.”? Even his most adamant foes in Congress have conceded his legitimacy. You guys should be arguing this on the Art Bell show. Even SCOTUS has annointed him legit. Don’t you people have real lives? People like you are the primary reason he only has five more years left in office. BTW, his Social Security number is 042-68-4425. You may not believe it, but the Social Security Administration does. Sheesh! What a gaggle of putzes.
My accountant told me all candidates go through the highest level IRS audit, for the past 5 years. They have to show BCs, and SS cards among other documents.
“It’s very uncomfortable.”
Why all all you people who are defending Obama so myopic. Your so busy trying to explain this post office stamp is not a forgery that you that you can’t even see all the other alleged forgeries and fraudulent things that Obama has been accused of. Just to mention a few, his forged BC, using somebody else’s social security number, and his paternal grandmother is on the record saying that see was in a hospital room in Kenya and witnessed Obama being born. The list is a lot longer.
Before you acuse anyone of anything you might actually try getting your claim correct. How does “were you present when he was born” to Obama’s grandmother being in the hospital room in Kenya and witnesssing his birth. That’s not even close to what she said. Bishop McRae constantly interchanged his questions about her son and grandson. Right before he asked her he was saying he would pray for her son. After asking if she was Present McRae stated he was coming to Kenya and wanted to see the birthplace of President Obama. This was a clarification McRae was asking for and she immediately corrected him saying “No he was born in America” She stated 3 different times that he was born in Hawaii. In Susequent interviews she has said the same thing. So no she never claimed she was in the hospital room. Those are birther words and not hers. His BC is not forged the State of Hawaii’s Department of Health said they issued and certified it. Also there is no proof he was using anyone’s social but his own. The social being used on the selective service card further proves it.
Why did the Sheriff from Arizona say a few days ago that when he investigated the microfilm of airplane flights leaving Kenya to the United States the whole week after Obama’s alleged birth date were missing. Why just that week. Why is it next to impossible for the press to interview Obama’s paternal grandmother now. Why is the press denied access to her?.
There were no direct flights from Kenya to the United States. They would have to look for flights from London.
There is no fraudulent SSN, there is no interview where his paternal grandmother makes this statement
Why do you make such foolish accusations.
Do you know that all the names on the SSN track back to Obama, even the ones with 1890, 1990 and 8/4/61 and 4/8/61 DOB’s
I wrote about this extensively:
Also, Obama would be a US citizen at birth, no matter where in the universe he was born, just like George Romney.
James Johnson-Why would an 18 tear old woman travel from Hawaii to Kenya to have a baby while her Kenyan husband stayed in Hawaii? Give me a credible story and then we can talk.
Spend some time reading something other than lies from WND and other birther echo chambers.
The debunker’s guide to Obama conspiracy theories:
Some SSN data to help.
Have you considered it possible that Arpaio and Corsi and other birthers have lied to you?
What would be their motive? Political? Monetary? What else?
Isn’t she dead? Or was that his maternal grandmother?
Other possibilities: she’s not granting interviews because she’s tired of dealing with conspiracy theorists who call themselves “the press”, or you’re actually just lying (or more likely, uncritically repeating a lie).
Why are some of the lettered kerned on Obama’s BC, that was allegedly typed in 1961. type machines that kerned letter were not available until the early 1980s.
No, she’s pining for the fjords.
Why has Glenn Beck gotten away with a rape and murder, since 1990?
That’s just wrong, and you know it.
The truth is that she built the hospital with her own hands, personally designing and installing the advanced technology video cameras that recorded the birth, which is now replayed every two hours, rain or shine, on giant outdoor screens at the Mombasa Obama Birthodrome.
On Sundays the noon playback is pre-empted by a live re-enactment, featuring Grandma Herself in her original role as the delivering physician. Stanley Dunham is frequently played by special guest stars, most recently Helen Mirren.
James do you just regurgitate the standard Birther talking points uncriticially without thinking about them? Do you even know what kerning is?
She’s getting on in years, and has to save her strength for the Sunday matinees.
Apparently Corsi looked for international flights to Honolulu; however, anyone coming back from Africa would most likely have flown from Los Angeles, hence not an international flight. I can’t believe Corsi actually examined every International flight into the United States.
There have been a handful of interviews with Sarah Obama over the years, but none recently.
ancestry.com spontaneously delivered to me (in their “absolutely free not even a free trial” limited mode, to boot), records of my mother traveling through New York and Hawaii in the ’50s. So presumably all the available stuff has been nicely pre-indexed by the Mormons already.
Also presumably, folks have already searched the heck out of this data for any Stanley/Ann Dunham/Obama records, and come up with zilch.
So… what Corsi has would be, from this inference and from the description at the presser, completely new data that no one else has, in microfilm form. Is that the consensus belief at this point?
Or, of course, he’s lying. And given that he hasn’t shown any evidence that I’m aware of that he has any of these microfilm records, that would be my go-to explanation.
Just as long as they don’t baptize any of those dead people.
I think there’s an opt-out box in their Terms of Service.
Yes, expecting a direct international flight from Kenya into Hawaii is hard to believe. More likely trips would have been Hawaii/Los Angeles/New York/London
Then again, the absence of anything is not evidence of much. I find it amusing how the Posse focused on some minor discrepancies but ignored the many similarities…
Wouldn’t it save a lot of time and money if Obama would just showed up in court and proved once and for all, he is what he claims to be. It would just take a day or two and this could all be laid to rest. Doesn’t Obama realize there are 100s of thousands if not millions of Americans at this point have doubts about him. If he is what he says he is why is he playing games? Isn’t he a little old for that?
69M voted for Obama in ’08. Intrade has Obama at 60.2%, as I write. You are going to vote GOP, no matter what, so why should we care if you are miserable.
The only ones playing games are Sheriff Joe and his merry band of grifters.
Not true, a fast a typist can create kerning on a typewriter..
Look at the Nordyke BCs they also show kerning.
misha, you failed to answer my question, which is par for the course.
Every time I listen to Wagner, I feel like invading Poland. – Woody Allen
Answering Birthers and not answering Birthers has the same effect, so we usually just do whatever is the most fun at the moment.
For the sake of discussion let’s assume you and you alone will be the judge in this matter. What would Obama have to say or show you that would lay the matter “to rest” for you?
misha, why are you still playing dodgeball?
Soros is paying me to.
You are greatly overstating your numbers. No birther gathering has been able to eclipse a hundred people. Obama doesn’t have to show up in court he’s already proved himself to their satisfaction. Thus far Obama is the only president to show his birth certificate publicly while President. Why is it that his papers aren’t good enough for you? He’s not the one playing games. The birthers have with their continually changing shell game of what they consider to be sufficient evidence.
Poor Durwood, so very very remedial class in Birthing, terribly sad.
Now, in response to your sad little “WWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYY”
Explain precisley why the President of the USA should, after releasing not one but two independantly verified (by the government of Hawai’i) BC’s, dance to your tune.
Have you asked for the BC of Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney, Rick Santorum, Ron Paul..?
If not, why not..?
please don’t say Obama is just too busy to go to court. Obama is always going on either vacation or campaigning junkets, he should be able to squeeze a court junket in.
Why don’t you write him a letter that says,
“Show me your papers, boy!”?
And then you’ll vote for him, right?
Your ignorance is breathtaking. As a young lad in the late 60’s I sold typewriters so I have more than a passing acquaintance with this particular delusion.
Proportional spacing typewriters were first available in the mid-1940’s and widely available and used in business’ until the advent of computerized word processors.
Kerning in any basket typewriter (manual or electric) can be caused by a number of things. A fast typist can often get the second key up before the carriage has moved a full space. Poor lubrication and/or a weak carriage spring can also cause inaccurate spacing.
Also letters can be or appear to be out of alighment if type bars collide or if the type slug has come loose from the type bar or was soldered on crooked.
I hope that puts your mind to rest.
please give me the names of some experts in the field of print analysis that have examined the two documents you just mentioned and then issued a report in writing that those two documents are not just cheap, poor forgeries.
Oh bye the way can you do this without any name calling, Do your best!
I wonder if Birtherism would exist if Barack Obama had shown zero birth certificates instead of the two.
Why should he go to court? I do not get it? Why should our President set aside time to go to a court where foolish people claim that NBC means birth to two-citizen parents and who are unwilling to accept his birth on US soil?
Come on be real…
You’ve got it backwards. No one has to prove something “didn’t” happen. If you think they are “cheap, poor forgeries” then it’s up to you to prove it, make the case.
Hawaii DOH issued statements that both the short form and long form were authentic. Given that they are the issuing bodies, why would they forge a birth certificate, rather than issue authentic ones with fraudulent information? Does the Treasury issue counterfeit money?
The Department of Health of Hawaii comes to mind, and while they are not experts in the field of print analysis they maintain the records that some people so foolishly question.
John Woodman is as much of an expert or more than those people on the ‘Posse’… Just look at their shoddy work…
I accuse James Durwood Johnson of being the Zodiac killer. I’ll see him court next month to prove that he didn’t!
Does anyone else have anything they’d like to accuse him of doing?
Since you claim to be a super genius on typing machines, please explain why some letters are kerned and other letters are not kerned on the same document. Did typewriting machines back in those good old days just do the kerning when they felt like doing it? Maybe thos good od machine had a kerning on/off switch which the typer of this document turned on and off, Oh bye the way could you give me the name and model of a machine that could do kerning back then. Please no name calling.
How do you explain the “kerning” on parts of the Nordyke twin certificates?
He was Derchowitz’ partner in crime
I explained it in my message, James. Here it is again:
Kerning in any basket typewriter (manual or electric) can be caused by a number of things. A fast typist can often get the second key up before the carriage has moved a full space. Poor lubrication and/or a weak carriage spring can also cause inaccurate spacing.
Any or all of those can result in kerning on one strike of a letter and not another.
I also gave you that information in my original message with the link to the IBM website. It was the IBM Executive and was on the market for about ten or twelve years with many of them lasting well into the age of computerized word processing.
Here is the link for you….again:
Any other questions, James?
Why doesn’t Obama sue all these people that are saying all these bad things about him? Is Obama scared to go to court. He did have an active law license at one time. Dr. Orly Taitz, Esq. has been begging Obama to show up in court against her. Why is he scared of Dr. Orly Taitz, Esq,?
James Dustbin Johnson,
Since you claim to be a super genius, explain why the certified paper documents that the Candidate / President (courtesy of the electoral [and popular] vote) has twice shown to people who have seen, handled, photographed and posted the resultant photos of on the web have repeatedly been confirmed by the State of Hawaii — declared by the Constitution to be the canonical authority for such confirmation?
It appears that your most compelling counter to this is “some of the letters look squished.”
Go ahead and call me names, because they can’t be any worse than the as-of-yet unstated reciprocal.
I responded to this message once but it disappeared so here we go again.
If you look at the original message you will see the explanation for why one imprint of a letter kerns and another doesn’t: Speed of the typist, lubrication, carriage spring tension.
It’s the IBM Executive and you will find everything you want to know about it on the link I supplied in the original message.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Probably because he has nothing to gain from it. The Birthers lose every case they take to court, none of the 435 Congressmen have attempted to draw up articles of impeachment. Even if he were somehow to convince every last Birther that he was eligible to be President, they wouldn’t vote for him anyway.
I would ask you what he could possibly stand to gain from suing these people, but I imagine you’d give some incomprehensibly absurd answer.
I’m not sure what this has to do with Circular Date Stamps, but there are two reasons that Obama doesn’t sue, one political and one practical.
The political reason is that there is nothing to be gained by such a suit except to publicize the crank claims and give them an aura of legitimacy when they are taken seriously by the President. A suit would be an admission by the president that birther claims were causing him problems.
The practical reason is that he can’t win because he is a public figure. See the case of NY Times v. Sullivan. When was the last time you remember ANY public figure suing anyone for defamation?
He’s the Freaking President of the Freaking United States.
This is my third time trying to respond to you message, James.
The answers to you questions are all in the original message. A letter may kern on one strike but nother another because fo the reasons I described….speed, lubrication, spring tension.
The name of the typewriter was the IBM Executive and I provided you with a link about it that will tell you everything you want to know.
If you have any other questions just let me know.
Come on layers in a PDF document, separating text and graphics. When optimizing for size, adobe compresses the two components differently.
Simple, check out MRC compression
Glad to help
That’s essentially correct. Depending on the age, wear, adjustment, and operation of a typewriter, the precise location that a letter will hit varies from letter to letter and stoke to stroke.
What birthers seem not to understand is that the only place you NEVER get kerning is with a Typewriter font on a computer. These are what are called “monospaced” fonts and they are always spaced exactly and unvaryingly the same. You only get “kerning” (irregular spacing) on a mechanical typewriter.
I guess you have not heard of freedom of speech.. I am not surprised… Plus who cares what these foolish people have to say ?
Type writers move at different distances depending on typing speed as well as depending on the letters themselves. This ‘kerning’ is trivial to show
There are three, but only one has actually published a report and that is Ivan Zatkovich, who was commissioned by WorldNetDaily to do an analysis. They didn’t like the result and never published the report, but Zatkovich published it anyway.
See my article with a link to the report:
I note that you have dumped a lot of questions on this article. First I don’t appreciate you dumping stuff on articles about something else. This is hijacking the discussion. I maintain an Open Thread (check out the “Open Mike” link in the right sidebar for the current open thread) so that the discussion of the articles isn’t interrupted with every birther who thinks he’s cool.
The other thing is that if you had taken the trouble, you could have answered your questions by searching the site and not had to bother other people asking them to do your research for you.
You should also note that you have raised a series of pretty dumb questions.
So please, in the future, don’t pollute the current article discussions with off-topic material. Use the open threads. And check the site for answers before dumping stupid questions that were answered months ago.
I realize that birthers live in their own little world where the same old bunk is repeated over and over, and things totally disproven stay alive. However, this is the real world where disproven rumors stop.
Are you litigious?
Do you think government officials should silence citizens who say bad things about them?
Sue them? Take away their homes and possessions? Imprison them?
Now back in my arena. The abuse of a proud word, “kerning”, is driving me nuts!
Imprecision gives opening to the stupid.
“Kerning” is an intentional act, and only possible in typesetting (digital or mechanical), never in typewriting, unless you’re willing to go way out of your way / are extremely anal.
Glyphs are said to be “kerned” if either a) they intentionally overlap the horizontal space of an adjacent glyph (were designed to do so by the typographer), or b) a typesetter has intentionally adjusted the horizontal spacing between two glyphs (whether miles apart or right on top of each other).
Typewriters were all monospaced (all characters the same), and then variable spacing came along (‘w’ causing more shift than ‘i’). But even that improvement was based on a set of defaults. The only horizontal controls typewriters allow are default multipliers of the built-in spacing scheme, use of tabs, spaces, margins, indents, and the option of manually manipulating the carriage. And all of this was subject to the imprecision of a mechanical device.
There’s nothing suspicious about the positioning of characters on the LFBC. Anyone believing so needs to stare at random typewritten pages until the realization sinks in.
Or, better, try to do better with a blank LFBC and a 1960ish typewriter!
For the same reason Dalmatians fear Cruella de Vil.
Scared of Orly? Why she is totally clueless, fails to comprehend legal concepts and continues to fail in her lawsuits. Orly is funny but that’s about it, there is nothing to be afraid of, other than perhaps her screeching voice when she gets lost.
You must be kidding… Tell me you are…
Bit of a hint for you: Misha is our resident gadfly/Borscht Belt comedian. When he gets serious, he’s very serious. But that’s not often.
Somebody told me about this loony web-site so I just decided to get on it to see for myself if it was really as crazy as they told me it was.
You know what, every time I wrote something I got a some silly dumb excuse explaining why it was the way it was, or you just stooped to calling me names.
There are hundreds of ways Obama’s documentation is invalid, and you people just jump at the chance to prove each and every one of those invalid things AINT invalid. Do you really have yourselves fooled?
The best thing you people can do, is keep your fingers crossed the Obama doesn’t ever have to come face to face with Dr. Orly Taitz, Esq in a courtroom.
I’ve often wondered that. GW Bush never lowered himself to address ridiculous conspiracies, neither did Clinton or GHW Bush. The birther thing took off like a skyrocket when Obama posted his first COLB. McCain pretty much ignored his birthers, too.
One difference is the internet. A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on. The internet multiplies that effect exponentially. If I had a slide rule, I might be able to calculate if.
I call parody troll! Excellent spoofin’, sir!
Unfortunately, I have to take it back. I see Mr. Johnson is a devoted, elderly fan of Taitz, as expressed by his comments at her site.
Silly, optimistic me.
Good luck, Johnson, you’ll need it.
I think someone (Doc? NBC?) had posted sample typewritten letters. People these days forget how unperfect typing really was. There’s some examples in the FOIA requests. Manual typing is radically different from typesetting.
Ah — here’s one: http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2011/05/12/kerning-and-apuzzo/
Don’t blame yourself for having fallen for the lies and myths of the birthers. It will take some time to recover from this realization but recovery is possible.
That you realize that others have manipulated into looking foolish is something that will sting for a while. Hope a lesson well learned.
If you still are interested in expanding your knowledge, share with us some other of your myths and we can help you.
We’re fooled? You’re the one who thinks Obama’s in trouble when Birthers have lost over 100 court cases and no articles of impeachment have been drawn up and even staunch conservatives call your cause nuts.
And now James Durwood should understand why Arpaio’s ‘findings’ are without any real relevance. It’s a cheap marketing stunt at best, at the expense of our ‘sheriff’…
Pwned by people he trusted…
Orly his only hope… Well all is lost then… Her history speaks for itself… So many people manipulated by our part-time dentist/lawyer friend…
May I ask what you expected? What you call excuses, we call debunking. It’s what we do. It’s like a debate. You make an assertion, we counter with our explanations and evidence, you rebut with evidence, until someone is convinced or gives up. Do you expect us to suddenly see your light and convert? It’s far better than what happens on most birther sites, where debunkers/anti-birthers just have their comments deleted.
“The best thing you people can do, is keep your fingers crossed the Obama doesn’t ever have to come face to face with Dr. Orly Taitz, Esq in a courtroom.”
LMAO! Pretty good laughs today.
West Wing. Morning briefing.
“Mr. President, there’s an unhinged, incompetent dentist and amateur attorney from Rancho Santa Margarita asking about your birth certificate. What should we do?”
“Send her a mug.”
“Yes, sir. Moving on to the situation in Iran.”
There were some electric typewriters that were almost always perfectly spaced. I remember using an IBM Selectric II for some of my college applications. The spacing was always perfect and I’d never seen one character ever touch another.
Of course I remember trying out a manual typewriter that my folks bought for me at a flea market. That thing was an adventure. I remember playing with it and getting ink-stained fingers from readjusting the ribbon. I used to have fun banging two keys at the same time. My fingers would get sore from the pressure needed to get the carriage moving.
There was an office repair company that I remember for years on Bancroft Ave in Berkeley, CA. They still repaired typewriters, but I think within the last year they finally closed. I guess they couldn’t move on to modern office equipment, which is either fixed on site via contract with the equipment seller, or just tossed because it’s so cheap to replace. I remember seeing old typewriters and other relics there.
I read on the ‘net that James Durwood Johnson is an accessory after the fact, to Glenn Beck’s rape and murder of that poor girl.
He’s no fun; he fell right over.
I suspect this is just another silly “Performance Art Parody Troll” intentionally playing a lame act.
I mean claiming anyone would fear Orly in a courtroom, seriously???
Nah, not even the delusional crazies out there are going to claim that with a straight face. Orly is the most inept and clueless lawyer I’ve ever seen. She’s capable of nothing but endless failure. There’s a reason she’s lost to an Empty Table – TWICE.
“Is it safe?”
Poor Obama, the screeching voice would not be welcome to anyone but really Orly is no match in any court room Look how she continues to fail and when she gets to present her evidence, it’s ruled non probative and she forgets to qualify her witnesses.
She’d better focus on being a dentist. But I enjoy her failings in court so who am I to disagree with her choices.
Finally, it has surfaced, the compression scheme that fits all the clues seen in the WH PDF. A great old white paper on it from Xerox can be found here:
I’m happy someone found it, sad it wasn’t me (I don’t get this deep in the technical weeds unless work requires it!), and feel like writing a lengthy, majestic, PDF Madness killing (yeah right!) dissertation … but it’s late.
Hopefully Doc is writing an article about MRC and the WH PDF. OCT won’t be complete without it! 😀
I remember that place! The year I took the bar exam, there was a rule that the exam could be typed, but only with a mechanical typewriter – no electric typewriters allowed. I think the concern was with inability to provide enough power strips at the exam location. So I needed to get a mechanical typewriter in order to sit the exam. (My handwriting is terrible, so that wasn’t an option). So I went to that shop to buy one.
Now here is what really dates me: living on a student’s budget, it was hard for me to come up with the $40 or so they wanted for the typewriter. So I worked out a trade. What did I trade for the manual typewriter? The CB radio in my car. 🙂 That was the end of my “breaker, breaker” days…. I don’t remember my handle, unfortunately.
First of all its bovRil not bovil and your name is Durwood so no horrid name calling
As for this fascination with “experts” I just bet you believe that Sherrif Joe had “experts doing his “analysis” of the BC don’t you?
For a fuller but non exhaustive breakdown on how the Cold Custard Posse’s “experts” fail in forensic analysis please reference
Thanks for that hilarious story!!! 😀
It wasn’t “Expelliarmus”?
Hundreds? You mean there’s only one because he’s black. We know that’s the real reason you ignore those tasked with being the custodians of vital records at the DOH and instead believe some random internet “experts” talking about an image instead of the paper document.
CB, eh? Perhaps you remember this classic by C.W. McCall that begins with the following dialogue:
“Ah, breaker one-nine, this here’s the Rubber Duck. you gotta copy on me, Pig Pen, cmon?”
“Ah, yeah, 10-4, Pig Pen, fer sure, fer sure. By golly, it’s clean clear to Flag Town, cmon.”
“Yeah, that’s a Big 10-4 there, Pig Pen, Yeah, we definitely got the front door, good buddy. Mercy sakes alive, looks like we got us a CONVOY!”
Durwood ate all the skin off the Extra-Crispy KFC. Then he ate the last piece of pizza! BLERG!
This …. ummm …. welcome visitor was flogging kerning in multiple threads? Gettin’ musty in here. I accuse him of stinkin’ up the place!
(PS—I answered your foolishness in the first thread I noticed it. Up to you to find it. Follow your trail of breadcrumbs back to the exit….)
I never had a handle, but I was KCR-4303 and KXX-7070. Funny what you remember (and what you DON’T).
Huh, I would have thought it would have been on this thread, but it’s not:
NBC, didn’t you post a link to something on your site that showed that the numbers on Obama’s SSreg were very close in sequence to someone else’s contemporaneous SSreg?
That would strike me as being a very significant data point demonstrating that Obama’s reg was filed in 1980, not 2008 — one that the Posse needs to address with something more than hand waving.
(And I can see those hands in the air now…)
I hope all the reader of this web-site took note of the fact you couldn’t come up with a name and model number for the type machine that could kern letters back in you said the 40’s., 50s, 60s.
You want me to find it when you can’t.
Come on JPotter, you can do it? You weren’t telling tale tales were you?
Remember no name calling, only people that have nothing of substance to say, resort to calling names.
Yes, we have freedom of speech, but that doesn’t give a person the right to accuse people of committing felonies, and that what a lot of people are accusing Obama of doing.
Exactly, JDJ! I will repeat myself from this thread:
Here’s a bone: I did not make the claim you are attributing to me (how rude you are!), and specifically refuted it where I first discovered you. The technology has existed since the 1920s (go read up on the history of electric typewriters and typesetting machines), but wouldn’t have been used to file out a form in an office setting in 1961.
Readers of this site know that I have given you that information…..twice in the last day…in this thread. Here it is again from IBM:
The machine is the IBM Executive and their were various model numbers ending with the C model in 1959.
The likelihood that one of them would be used to fill out forms is slim and the explanation for the spacing issues is, as also described, much simpler: typist speed, lubrication, etc.
Cue countdown until Durwood again accuses you of not providing the information he requested. He reminds me of that robot from Robocop that orders the OCP executive to put down his gun, then continues ordering him to put down his gun even after the executive complies, then finally shoots him.
James does as Birthers are so fond of doing:
1) Ask question.
2) Receive answer.
3) Ignore answer.
4) Accuse anti-birthers of not having any responses to his questions.
5) GOTO step 1.
LOL! You just outlined a brilliant birther version of Eliza. So simple it could be written in a few lines of BASIC, plus a database of birther favorites:
1. Read random string from database into string variable.
2. Print string
3. Input, string arry, for user entry
4. Goto 1.
Some more sophitication to cover empty-headed reworking of answers input into mindless new questions, and a basic AI to generate insults based on an anger/frustration index would be teh next steps, but eh simple mindless loop above would wonderfully simulate many birther interactions!
What makes you believe I just outlined a brilliant birther version of Eliza? Can you elaborate on that?
I see my Birther 2.0 is already up and running …. or are you 3.0, with fully-functional add homyanimz module in place?
From the “Statute of Limitations Has Long Expired” File: Back in the day, on the *mumble* computer system, I put up a copy of Eliza that logged the responses for my later perusal. People would invariably get angry with her *very* quickly.
With 4.0 comes pee-pee jokes.
Development track written to mimic the general arc of a typical troll revue.
” James Durwood Johnson”
Prove you are not Dr. Orly Taitz
Not enough commas.
Why should he show up, when an empty chair beats Orly every time?
Do you have any idea what type of typing machines were used in Hawaii’s Department of Health in 1961?
Check it out, they didn’t have the ability to KERN letters.
I’m still waiting for you to come up with a name and model number.
What’s the delay?
Oh man, if only I had the time. Proposed updated version:
I AM THE DENTIST AND ALSO A LAWYER. PLEASE, WHY IS THE USURPER GUILTY?
I don’t think he is.
YOU SAY HE WON’T SHOW YOU HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE. SHOULD HE BE HUNG, OR JUST DEPORTED?
No, see, he did provide the
LET ME FEENISH. TELL ME WHY HE IS USING A FAKE SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER.
LET ME FEENISH. WHAT MAKES YOU BELIEVE HE KILLED ANDREW BREITBARD? CAN YOU ELABORATE ON THAT? DO YOU KNOW WHO THIS MAN WITH A GREY BEARD AND A NOTICEABLE LIMP, CARRYING A PARROT IN A CAGE, IS?
That’s “Breitbart,” and that’s ridi
LET ME FEENISH. DO YOU HAVE A PAYPAL ACCOUNT OR ACCESS TO A PHOTOCOPY MACHINE THAT I CAN USE FOR A WHILE?
YOU SAY YOU ARE CONVINCED HE WAS BORN IN KENYA. DO YOU LIKE MY NEW HAIRSTYLE? IS THIS A FETCHING POSE?
LET ME FEENISH.
LET ME FEENISH.
LET ME FEENISH.
LET ME FEENISH.
Obama’s birth certificate is not kerned. In fact it looks the same as the Nordyke certificate. They could easily have been typed on the same machine.
Durwood — may I call you Durwood? It kind of makes me feel like Samantha’s father, and I was always a big fan of Maurice Evans — you still haven’t explained why, even if your “squished letters” theory hold water, the State of Hawaii backs the president’s birth information 9 ways from everywhere, and explicitly says Obama is a natural born citizen.
Don’t we have to get past that before we move on to squished letters?
You certainly put all this Obama eligibility stuff to rest with all your undeniable facts.
WHY?? Are you sold a bill of goods that easy.
President Obama was born on August 4, 1961 at 7:24PM in Kapiolanii Maternity and Gynecological Hospital in Honolulu Hawaii, to (Stanley) Ann Dunham and Barack Hussein Obama. The attending physician was Dr David A. Sinclair who also delivered Miki Booth’s child and was her OB/GYN.
Birth on soil, regardless of the status of the parents, makes President Obama a Natural Born citizen.
Based on his age, his residency requirements and his birth, President Obama is eligible to be our President.
Any other questions?
Most likely they did not. But as people have explained to you, what you are observing is not kerning but rather the variation in displacement between letters due to variations in typing speed, caused by the mechanical variations due to wear and tear. Anyone familiar with the old typewriter knows how uneven the spacing between letters can be.
Sorry are you so easily fooled by others that you cannot even allow yourself to ponder the issue?
This is giving me flashbacks. Ready, JDJ?
Ready ….. set ….. study!
I am glad this thread has the word “circular” in its title.
I’d think a 77-yr old man would know a thing or two about old-school typer-rightin’.
Why not? We have the right to petition the government for our grievances to be heard. That the Government ignores us when such grievances are based on pure conjecture, is how the system works.
President Obama is a political, public figure and our Constitution provides much protection for political speech, whether truthful or not.
And since these accusations only serve to confuse a few foolish souls, why should the President be paying attention? He has a country to run…
We must be looking at different Obama BCs because the one that I have examined has KERNED letters, different types of print, and the BC number is out of sequence with the BCs from the same hospital at that time.
I know I’m nit picking, but why is there so much nit picking available on this one BC?
Poor James, 77 years old and putting all his hopes on Orly Taitz, who has shown herself fully incapable of even defeating an empty chair twice now. Her musings continue to fail to meet legal standards, she fails to properly perfect service, she fails to properly qualify her ‘experts’… All in a day’s work.
No wonder James is somewhat worried… He too must have seen that Orly does not have the goods…
Social Security Fraud? No evidence, the number has been consistently assigned to President Obama, at known addresses, even the 1890, 1990 DOB records point to President Obama. So they are clearly database entry mistakes.
So Durwood, as NBC stated, exactly how you are going to work around the HDoH stating the President (God the must really irritate you) was born in Hawai’i and ALL the details in the BC’s are good.
I mean they stated it, they are the custodians of the records and according to the REAL Constitution there’s that horrid Full Faith and Credit thingy where, guess what, their records are Constitutionally accepeted to say what they say..
In fact, every word you wrote is b.s. And YOU know it. The b.c,.looks like every other typed document from that era. Sorry if you haven’t looked at others, but I have. You lose, sucker!!! 0-99.
Nope the BC is well within sequence when you realize how the numbers were assigned. Dr Conspiracy has shown how a simple 2-3 week window with names alphabetically ordered leads to much of the expected numbering. What is more shocking is that the numbers are so close to Nordyke’s showing that they were filed the same time, no delayed filings nothing.
And Kerning… I provided you the link that lays that foolish notion to rest.
Education yourself my friend, don’t let other manipulate you into making foolish statements that show that you really have not studied the issues.
Obama’s Birth Certificate Number
Cheers my friend.
Durwood has no explanation why all the data point to Hawaiian birth, other than that in his belief world, Obama could not possibly be eligible….
Reality and reason has nothing to do with Durwood’s dislike of our President.
Which is why he can be observed spouting known myths or irrelevant issues, and refuses to address the facts as we know them.
Quite fascinating in my opinion. Confirmation bias at its best and worst.
There are many old examples of typewriters with uneven horizontal spacing (what you call “kerning”, only real kerning is consistent and doesn’t look like the random bad spacing on the Obama long form). Further, this uneven spacing is proof that the type was NOT computer generated because typewriter fonts on computers are always perfectly spaced with no kerning whatever.
As for the certificate number, there are several known examples and they don’t show any particular order. That discussion is easy to locate, and I point to it here:
Now you will either consider the evidence honestly and try to understand that we are helping you, or you will put your hands over your eyes. Birthers who stay birthers are in the latter category. I realize how hard it is to change your mind once you have invested so much energy in another viewpoint. If you’re stuck where you are, I understand.
Here is my suggestion-Let’s compare Obama’s b.c to a few others from that era. I suggest that just for variety we pick Mitt Rmoney (1947) and Rick Santorum (1958). You would see that they had all the same features. Or at least, you would if they released theirs. Unfortunately, they have not. Because they weren’t born in the US?
Oh yes, easy. Subverting an entire state government is, as the kids say, cinchy.
James may want to read the book by John Woodman which addresses some of these issues quite in depth.
Or check out my latest contribution on layers, halos, and MRC compression or the similarities between Obama’s and Bruce’s Selective Services filings
Filed within a few days, close in numbering… Even the ’80’ on the stamp appears to align.
All these ‘findings’ by the ‘Cold Case Posse’ showing layers and halos have since long been explained. What is disturbing is how they given little air time to these findings. Every minor ‘discrepancy’ is pointed out, while the vast majority of indicators of authenticity are being ignored.
Now you understand why there will never be official charges or an official investigation… There is just nothing… Even Arpaio understands as does Farah who hoped that the stunt/circus may generate enough media interest that congress may pick it up.
Do you even know what kerning is? Or are you just regurgitating the Birther talking points that sound best to you?
Why is the Registrar’s name different on Obama’s BC then the Nordyke twins, who were born only one day later. Did the State of Hawaii change their Registrar in one day?
Because the “local registrar” is whichever Health Dept employee receives the form and signs it. The equivalent in most California county clerk offices would be “deputy clerk”. I’ve got three copies of our marriage certificate, each of which has an attestation of accuracy from a deputy clerk. Each one has the signature of a different deputy clerk.
Have you found the “kerning” on Mitt Rmoney’s Ontario birth certificate yet? I did.
There is more than one registrar. Duh…
But you are moving the goalposts once again…. Such confirmation bias eh…
Birther Eliza cycles again!
Really need some fresh material for that database.
Note how UK La Lee is also the registrar on Edith’s birth certificate
Ouch.. Do you really believe that your observation is anything new here? People on this blog have done research to support their beliefs.
You on the other hand…
James has now expressed his concerns about the name of the registrar, even though I have now shown that there is really a registrar with that name, as shown on Edith’s BC.
Will James address these issues or will he move the goal posts once again
To justlw and anybody else who has the correct answer,
I’m a little confused, it looks like you people are tying to play two sides against the middle. One person tells me that there were type machines available back in 1961 that could kern letters, and the other person is saying that those letters are just a misprint by a machine that didn’t have the kerning ability.
Which is that answer you want me to accept?
By the way I’m still waiting for a name and model number.
If you don’t have a name and model number, just make one up.
Why do you abruptly change the subject every time some answers one of your questions?
I have to admit I never actually understood what “kerning” was until I saw this XKCD comic
Durwood I don’t know anything about this kerning business, but I’m still wondering why the state of Hawaii would be complicit in a conspiracy to forge a birth certificate when, as the issuing authority, they could just issue a genuine birth certificate.
Confirmation bias means that James is unable to accept any evidence that undermines his position and he can only resolve this by raising yet another objection, which we put to rest as well…
See James run…
Someone was just giving a mostly off-topic example of a machine that was designed to do kerning.
However, there’s no evidence that the typewriter(s) used with the Obama or Nordyke certificates was designed to do that. They do show the typical signs of inconsitent pitch, such as letters that touch each other or are spaced well away from each other. The “a” touches the “n” in Caucasian. In Wichita, the “i” is under the “W”. The “i” is also well spaced from the “c”. That suggests the spacing was simply a bit off to the left.
Well, you know, two different administrations, one Republican, and one Democrat are all protecting our President…
Is it not self evident?…
There is no “kerning”. The Obama b.c. looks like any typed document from the era. Compare it to Rmoney’s b.c..
Are you clear? I could post this 10 more times if you’d like, though Doc might object.
So it’s come to this?
I enjoyed the comments there, although they’re now closed. The first one couldn’t figure out why “Certificate of Live Birth”. That’s only because there exists the possibility of a still birth, for which every state has a different documentation procedure. Some states have a “Certificate of Still Birth”, while others don’t and won’t issue a birth certificate at all in the case of a still birth.
For years, California wouldn’t issue a certificate of stillbirth. The usual paperwork was just to file a death certificate without a birth certificate. Now, a parent can make a request directly to the State of California. The usual procedure for a live birth is that the paperwork is directly filed with the county (or city in four cases).
Why do you think they are mutually exclusive?
Because birthers deal in absolutes.
Issuance of such certificates is a trend among states. The states are helping parents by acknowledging the child, even if still born. In the industry, though, they are called “fetal deaths.”
And yes, there were typewriters as early as 1941 which could do kerning
Sigh… Did you even realize this James?…
What, you think we’re birther er’sumpin’?
Well, OK, I suggest the Ford Galaxy Kernatron 5100 SX Supersport, with custom leather keys, hydraulic carriage arrest, quab USB ports for uploading / remixing custom MP3 sound effects on the fly (In 1961! I know!), neon desk effects, coffee cup feelers, and chrome spinners on the ribbon spools, all built around the patented, laser-aligned, Ford “kern-by-wire” system. Each and every character burns in by a blast of microflame on the exact spot the operator is focused on!
No hammers. no mechanical action of any kind. That would be … imprecise! Noooo, my friends, this bad boy is completely digitronic for the space age!
12,000 characters per pint nitromethane guaranteed!
So …. with all that awesomenes at their fingertips, what happened on Obama’s BC?
Registrar had a lazy eye.
It’s always somethin’.
This (and 966) makes me wonder if Randall is following all of this. I’d think this kind of thing would be serious catnip for someone of his personality type.
Both answers are accurate.
For the fourth time: The typewriter that did proportional spacing was the IBM Executive Models A thru C which were sold from the late 40’s to around 1960.
They were expensive and it is unlikely that the county or state folks in Hawaii used them to fill out birth certificates.
The more reasonable explanation is, and forever will remain, that the anomolies in spacing or placement are the result of the typist over striking keys and/or maintenance of the machine.
The point is that there are two ways in which unevenly spaced characters can be produced by a typewriter. However, the varitype machines were used for special purposes, and I wouldn’t expect a hospital clerk to use one to type a birth certificate form. Just plain old typewriters get out adjustment and exhibit wear.
You should to read up on typographic kerning to understand why and when it happens. Then you can see that what you observe in the birth certificate is not kerning.
I used to do computer-generated newsletters back when you had to do your kerning manually and that is why I speak with confidence on the topic. The Obama certificate doesn’t have kerning; it has worn out and bent keys.
I really have no input on the squished letters question, although having used many manual typewriters in my day, I have seen firsthand that they’re not always the epitome of precision.
I’m the one who is asking how you get past the State of Hawaii confirming that the documents and the data they represent are valid. Let’s jump over that 100 foot wall first, then get down to the squished letters.
If anyone is still interested in the original subject, I’ve come across this little item:
Burns, Edward J., “Supplement No. 2 to Additions to Hawaiian Postal History, Volume II”, Po’Oleka O Hawaii, No. 38, p. 1-5, Jan., 1985.
Burns, Edward J., December, 1988 Update Of: Additions to Hawaiian Postal History, Vol. II, Hawaiian Philatelic Society, Honolulu, 1988. Burns’s last and most complete listing; numerous 235.01 style listings were deleted as they were found to be worn examples of style 253.01; numerous other corrections were made to the earlier listings.
(Sorry about the block-of-words; I can’t get any formatting to show up, not even blank lines. Hmmm.)
OK, that’s the one I was looking for.
It implies there’s an image of Bruce’s filing somewhere. Is it online?
Yes… Search for obama selective services on google, goto image search and look for a picure with 6/8 side by side SS forms.
You can also search for Bruce Henderson and get the data which is sometimes harder to read from the images.
These documents were obtained under FOIA by birthers…
Evidence that SSS was forged
It turns out I’d included a link from gorefan to a page with exactly that image, in a post of mine in this very thread.
Nice clear image there comparing the two, where you can see that Henderson’s stamp was very nicely inked and scanned, whereas there’s lots of dropout in Obama’s. What is presumably “MAKIKI STA.” on both forms is nearly illegible on Obama’s. (I’m sure hiding the station name ties into… something.)
I don’t think there’s anything I enjoy more than when the birthers document their own fails. It makes things so much more convenient.
If it was just a worn out typewriter, why didn’t sometimes one letter partial print over another letter. What gave this old worn out typewriting the ability to make the letters look like they were kerned when it misprinted? Sound like that typewriting knew when to misprint.
How about the twins BCs, did that old worn out typewriter make similar mistakes a day later or had that old worn out typewriter already repaired itself.
Check very close you will see that some of the letters on the twins BCs and Obama’s BC are identical, so that a good indication, that the same typewriter was used in those areas of their respective BCs.
I working on a ladder right now to scale that 100 foot high wall that you say I must get over.
I’m glad to see that you have decided the State of Hawaii had no type machines in their Department of Heath in 1961 that could KERN letters. So we are making progress.
The twins certificate has all the same features as Obama’s. You should visit a good optician.
It’s got clear signs of being the same typewriter, but as with any manual typewriter output there appear to be slight differences for all sorts of reasons. There’s a high H in one instance of “Honolulu”.
I also couldn’t figure out the dropped M in P.M. Then I realized that the M was printed ahead of time, and the typist was only supposed to type an A or P. I guess that was Hawaii’s way of avoiding people from using 24 hour time, which is ironically (24 hour time) the way time was recorded on my kid’s California birth certificate.
Your right, the IBM Executive Model A thru C did do proportional spacing, but in no way did it KERN letters,.
Proportional spacing did not have the ability for any two letter to share any part of the same vertical space. It only had the ability to vary the distances between letters, never to share any part of the same vertical space.
Did someone call me?
Huh.. Kerning and proportional are the same concepts.
Come on James, educate yourself, you are making it too easy to show you to be clueless
Perhaps JDJ is suffering from the common birther delusion …. that it’s impossible for two typewritten characters to occupy the same horizontal space …. after all two physical objects can’t occupy the same place at the same time, right?
Is James Durwood Johnson really in his 70’s? Did he not grow up in an era of typewriters and typewritten documents and letters? Does he really believe that every typewriter and typist were perfect and no imperfections were possible?
I want to ask James Durwood Johnson to explain his theory, because I am not gettin it.
Is he claiming that, in 1961, it was impossible for any typewritten document to be less than perfect? OK for the sake of argument, we’ll grant him that.
Then what does the less-than-perfect typing on Obama’s LFBC mean? That it is a forgery, made with computers to look imperfect, which as we know, are not how genuine 1961 typewritten documents looked?
Why didn’t the “forgers” use computers with perfect spacing to make it, so it would look perfect like every 1961 typed document?
You should really posit your theory- because I believe you are just grasping at anomalies, and lack any kind of cohesive theory or logic to explain what you think they mean.
KERNING is when two letters SHARE the same vertical space, not adjusting how much vertical spacing is BETWEEN two letters like the old IBM Executive typewriters did.
Play all the semantic games you want to, what is, is!
This KERNING issue is just one small little thing wrong with Obama’s personal documentation.
Let’s compare the kerning in Obama’s document and Nordyke’s. No surprise that both show similar examples
These ‘kerning’ examples are found on a myriad of contemporaneous birth certificates…
Well James, time to move those goalposts again?
Watch out for that ….
You are wrong. Kerning IS proportional spacing and proportional spacing kerns letters to achieve proportionality!
Wrong again. It adjusted the space based on the letter pair and often they overlapped. The lower case “y” was the one that most often showed up with the tail tucked under the letter on the left.
You might want to explain that every typesetter, type designer, typographer, layout artist, graphic designer … everyone involved with print design and production of any kind all the way back to Gutengerg. We’ve had it wrong for 560+ years!
Really, obstinate troll, go educate yourself.
Oh yeah? Obama does not tie his dog to the roof of his car, for 12 hours, so Seamus does
a Romney. Sorry.
Obama’s children do not hang a dog, and stone it to death, like Mike Hucabee’s do.
ROTFL… Sure, and the experts are all wrong about the meaning of the term?..
My goodness sakes James, educate yourself.
Source: Graphic Junkies
Ah, but if they had then Durwood would be arguing that the perfection was the anomoly and that everyone knows typewriters in 1961 were imperfect machines.
For goodness sakes James, look up some of these terms, do not let others manipulate you in looking foolish online… Trust but verify…
And don’t grant others the power to control you and have you spout nonsense in a public forum.
What we see here is a desperate concerted effort at yet again, moving the goalposts back to trotting out long debunked and dead arguments that failed to catch traction the first time.
We’ve got 3 Concern Trolls on 3 different posts who have all appeared over the past few days to pick at irrelevant nits at weave a “the birth certififcate is fake” meme, yet again.
As this is all old news and well worn failed ground, the bigger picture here is really what this latest meme tells us: The Birther propagandists are in abject panick and their recent failures and therefore are simply again moving away from currently failing memes and trying to bait and switch the conversation to a different tactic.
Their main meme for awhile now has been the “2 citizen parents” myths. However, those have been spectacularly thrashed in all the Ballot Challenges.
Then WND tried to ressurect the PDF nonsense with Arpaio. That has been a spectacular DUD as well.
So all of a sudden, there is a concerted effort in Birtheristan to re-trot out the even older failed themes of “the birth certificate is fake” and attempt to refocus and rebrand on that silly angle.
The problem with their obvious “throwing sphaghetti against the wall and hoping something will stick” strategy is that they’ve been failing at this for so long that there is nothing NEW for them left in their bowl to throw against the wall.
All they’ve got is picking up some moldy strands of sphaghetti from the floor and lamely trying to throw it at the wall again…
That is what is really going on here in a nutshell.
Something else I noticed about the circular date stamps and Obama’s Selective Service registration (remember the circular date stamps and Obama’s Selective Service registration? It’s an article about circular date stamps and Obama’s Selective Service registration…):
In the image on ORYR:
It’s clear that the image of Obama’s registration is not even grayscale, but monochrome, and correspondingly, lots of detail is lost. Henderson’s is full color.
I wonder whether, if the scan Obama’s form had been in color or grayscale, there might be discernable traces of the “19”. Since it’s a monochrome scan, any pixel that was below the threshold of registration is rendered as white — it’s GONE.
It’s the kind of question that I would raise if I were running an impartial posse, I think. Might even make another FOIA request with that thought in mind.
Or, I could bust out with the scary narration and pictures of disembodied gloved hands cutting apart rubber stamps. Same thing, I guess.
Yes that is something I noticed as well… Time for a FOIA request 🙂
I have been given illogical answers for every question that I have asked. It’s as simple as a rose is a rose. No more no less. Tweedle Dee Tweedle Dumb.
I think I just give you all some fodder to work with. Have fun among you all.
Remember no name calling, that aint nice.
Pointing out that typewriters and typists in 1961 weren’t always perfect is illogical?
Run back to the censored blogs of birther-stan and declare victory.
Oh please let that be your way of saying goodbye.
Nope — other end.
Just because you do not understand these concepts or answers does not mean that they are illogical.
You are apparently ignorant of the term kerning, and other common issues. We are here to help you realize that your position lacks in foundation of fact, logic and reason.
Don’t be mad, if you believe that you have a real argument, defend it…
Running away…. So unable to defend their foolish positions they do not even comprehend. Manipulated by others to spread rumor and innuendo… Sad really. What a legacy to leave behind for a 77 year old.
Translation: BUSTED! Time to cut & run.
It finally got through his thick Birther head that we’ve been onto him and we know exactly what he & his silly Birther propagandist troll buddies are doing all along…
To: justlw, Arthur, Obsolete, nbc, CarlOreas, Misha, JPotter, Scientist, Dr. Conspiracy, Y_P_W, Sef, thrifty, bevril, Thomas brown, bob, Dr, Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross), Rotflmao!!!, Majority Will,
You should all be very proud of yourselves, it only took 18 of you.
Please remember no name calling.
That would be unwise.
“Pride goes before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.”
Any single one of us could have taken you with half our brain tied behind our backs. Ignorance is no substitute for knowledge.
Totally unable to defend himself, totally wrong on countless topics. And I never even worked up a sweat. Bring me a real challenge I say…
But James does it not worry you that someone fed you all this nonsense causing you to look somewhat clueless on this web site? Have you no interest in the truth? Have you no interest in doing the minimal research necessary when making claims? Does it not concern you how easy it was to rebut your ‘claims’?
Come on James, do your homework and present us a real argument, or perhaps you should chose your sources more wisely. Just a thought my friend, just a thought.
Good luck my friend…
So James, any explanations as to why President Obama’s SSN only matched him at known addresses and how the 1890 and 1990 DOB’s all were pointing to his name? Clearly just a database entry problem as these are not official databases. And yet you trusted Orly when she claimed she had evidence of SSN fraud.
There are so many things you avoided addressing and so far you have not taken ANY responsibility for your errors, no retractions, no apologies and no evidence that you have learned from your mistakes.
Oh and then the kerning/proportional font claims. That was just priceless… How wrong can anyone possibly be, just because he failed to comprehend the arguments and the evidence. Now we see kerning on many contemporaneous birth certificates, best explained by the mechanical wear and tear, as anyone who has typed on a mechanical typewriter would understand and appreciate.
Sorry for hurting your feelings but you came here spouting all this nonsense which could not be left unaddressed.
Evidently, the proud, ever observant birther thinks that’s your screen name.
So long. Kindly remember to close the door on your way out. It gets drafty this time of year.
Yes James, 18 people here disagreed with you; without resorting to name calling. Did you expect the vitriolic nonsense that is the staple of your favorite website? Besides the 18 people who proved your premise wrong, there are over 100 judges who disagree with your position. In addition, there are over 500 elected officials in D.C who think your theories are bunk.
I think you need to venture away from Orly’s site. The anti-birther comments there are as mean and nasty as the birther responses. There are no actual discussions there.
Expand your world. If you are convinced that the President is ineligible and you are, merely, looking for others who feel the same way; stay on the fringe birther sites.Remember that none of this is a fight; if you are searching for the truth.
If you are looking for facts, go to the links provided here and think for yourself. If you are a 77 year old veteran, then you are too wise to remain willfully ignorant.
Good day and good luck.
and apologies to Doc for this thread going away from the article.
I can’t really believe that I bedazzled so many you with the very small issue of KERNING.
How many different answers did you people come up with for KERNING.
Remember no name calling.
If KERNING is a non-issue, why even respond?
Well, that causes me to ROTFLMAO all over again… 😉
What would we do without asinine, hypothetical, self-referential contradictions?
Oh yeah, you’d like that. Than you go to birther sites and say “I posed a question about kerning and all I got was the sound of crickets.”
It is pretty obvious that you will never accept that kerning is not an issue, but someone else coming to this site might see the responses and see how wrong you are and than they move on. It has happened here in the past.
Full disclosure: I did refer to him as “Dustbin” once. But it wasn’t intended to be insulting; it was an homage to classic television.
Welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, well!
As to the old gang up, I cannot speak for these, my fellow droogies, but one thing I could never stand was to see a filthy, dirty old drunkie like you, howling away all the filthy lies of his fellow birthers and going blurp blurp in between as it might be a filthy old orchestra in his stinking, rotten guts. I could never stand to see anyone like that, whatever his age might be, but more especially when he was real old birther like you was.
Still and always, your visit was a real kick and good for laughs, but now it’s off for us to the Korova Milkbar for a nog of milk plus vellocet, which will really sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit the old ultra-mocking.
But enough of words, it’s been a wonderful evening and what I need now, to give it the perfect ending, is a little of the Ludwig Van.
Because it is an example of people finding a small issue, blowing it out of proportion and then when educated as to its relevance, pretend that it was much ado about nothing. Sorry my friend.
Remember you asked
First we showed how such type writers existed as early as 1941, secondly we showed that this is not due to kerning. You were lied to by myths and you chose to present it as an argument which you were woefully unable to defend as you were totally clueless about the meaning of kerning.
Do you often make arguments you are so ill-equipped in defending with reason and logic?
Do you often allow others to mislead you into believing this was a real issue, only to find out you had, once again, been lied to?
Do you have no pride, self-esteem, responsibility?
1. We showed you wrong on the date of the earliest type writer
2. We showed you that the kerning was due to typical wear and tear and was found on other birth certificates as well.
Totally outclassed you were… Once again.
Don’t you take responsibility for your expressed ignorance and your reliance on misleading data fed to you by others?
What is it?
And noone was bedazzled as this is a common myth from birthers, and you were foolish enough to repeat it without doing any research or even understanding the meaning of kerning. You were outclassed, outwitted and shown to be nothing more than a willing mouth piece for lies and misrepresentations of others.
Does that help?
When Dr. Orly Taitz, Esq., wins I love to be where I could see the expression on your faces, She is a very gifted brilliant lady that has accompliced more in life than most of you have ever dreamed of doing.
Jump all over this, but when that day comes, when Dr. Orly Taitz, Esq. wins, and that day is coming, in spite of all your efforts, I will check back on this web-site and see who you are making fun then, with all your silly semantic gymnastics .
Go to the top of this page. Look under “Docket”. Go to “Birther Scorecard”.
After ALL these loses, what makes you think Orly will EVER win? What new evidence does she have, what great new strategy? You may admire and like her, but that doesn’t make her RIGHT.
Only Congress can remove a sitting President. So what exactly can Orly “win”?
You are funny. She has failed in so many of her cases. Her achievements are none, her losses notorious, her sanctions $20,000. She failed to properly serve in a multitude of cases, failed to timely file, failed to duly qualify her ‘expert witnesses’ was sanctioned for her remarks in court, she continues to blame others for her failures. In one of the few cases she ‘won’, she managed to get a $290,000 verdict but all three defendants filed for bankruptcy and she failed to get herself involved in time to recover anything.
Mind my words: She will never win any case and your hopes in her will be shattered for the simple reason that her understanding of the legal rules and law are minimal.
How sad that your ‘heroine’ is such a loser. Why not look up to people who have achieved something worthy? Have you no goals or standards?
You mean we understand the term kerning and can apply it using reason and logic unlike some who appear to let others mislead them into believing that there is something nefarious, only to find out, they have been had. Same with Orly, a waste of time and money, the moment she wins a lawsuit will not happen in our lifetime.
Just saying… But I guess, if you wait to return until Orly wins, we won’t be seeing you any longer. That’s too bad.
She could keep him off a ballot in a single state perhaps? If it were to happen, with Orly’s abilities, it will be a GOP state anyway and it won’t make any difference. Of course, even keeping him off the primary will just mean that he returns for the general election.
It’s such an unfair system.. What were our Founders thinking…
Better take that one off your Bucket List, Durwood, because it isn’t going to happen. Replace it with something reasonable–like getting a pair of good-fitting dentures.
Johnson, you’re alll over the place. When did you last use a manual typewriter?
This for me is a first, seeing a birther hung up on kerning branching out into vertical positioning … possibly because this assertion is an escalation into a higher level of stupid! Only the very oldest typewriters lack any vertical controls. Good luck typing your Chemistry papers without the ability to perform baseline shifts, creating sub- or superscripts. And another basic feature is the ability to manipulate linespacing, a crude form of leading, typically 1x, 1.5x, and 2x. And there’s always the carriage return, or the option of manually positioning the paper.
Again, it’s slippage introduced and increased by wear. Typewriters are violent and kinetic, and do require maintenance and refurbishment if you wish to prevent them from beating themselves to bits.
Since you seem to be unaware of teh existence of mechanical wear, may i ask how long it’s been since your conveyance of choice has had a brake job?
If our friend is still motoring, I suggest giving him a wide berth lads!
As for your feeling ganged up on … well, we’re suckers for free pizza. Keep serving up the fat ones!
Does that include her many bad dental reviews including leaving a 92 year old father with a mouth filled with blood?
Little Shop of Horrors
Provided by Citysearch Posted by joninoc on 08/31/2011
Found what must have been the inspiration for Steve Martin’s dentist character in the movie. Waited 45-50″ with our 92 year old father to have his teeth cleaned. When told it would be at least 30″ longer, we asked if it would be better if we rescheduled. The receptionist said it probably would. Dr. Taizt then came out and said that she could clean his teeth. She evidently was filling in as the appointment was with Dr. Tran. She seem irritated and was very gruff. Approximately 5-10 minutes later the receptionist said you can get your father now. We took him his walker and noticed when we got back to the waiting room that his mouth was filled with blood. We pointed it out and asked if someone could rinse his mouth. The receptionist took us to a nearby room and rinsed it. In rating Dr. Taitz, the one star I gave her was for speed. Fastest cleaning I have ever heard of. Otherwise she deserves zero stars.
And all of her malpractice suits?
718165 DEFENDANT ORLY TAITZ
09/30/1993 MALPRACTICE – DENTAL
S41640 RESPONDENT ORLY TAITZ
02/27/1998 SMALL CLAIMS APPEAL
00CC11017 DEFENDANT ORLY TAITZ
09/14/2000 MALPRACTICE – DENTAL
03CC04813 DEFENDANT ORLY TAITZ
03CC12382 DEFENDANT ORLY TAITZ
10/10/2003 BREACH OF CONTRACT/WARRANTY
03CC12364 DEFENDANT ORLY TAITZ
10/09/2003 MALPRACTICE – DENTAL
04CC05196 DEFENDANT ORLY TAITZ
04/23/2004 BREACH OF CONTRACT/WARRANTY
04CC06308 DEFENDANT ORLY TAITZ
05/28/2004 CONTRACT – SPEC PERFORMANCE
AP14265 APPELLANT ORLY TAITZ
12/16/2004 MISC COMPLAINTS – OTHER
05CC12538 DEFENDANT ORLY TAITZ D.D.S 11/23/2005 MALPRACTICE-MEDICAL
06CC12669 DEFENDANT ORLY TAITZ D.D.S. 12/06/2006 MEDICAL MALPRACTICE
There’s a really good view from over there by the Invisible Pink Unicorns
I cannot believe that this is anything but parody. No human being can be this clueless. It is just not possible.
If Oily Taints is gifted, brilliant and accomplished I’d be interested to see someone who would count as stupid, incompetent, and a failure.
Oh, wait… that would be J. D. Johnson.
James, I feel bad for calling you James.
The efficacy of the Obama presidency can and, should, be debated with the utmost vigor. Is he a good President? Should he be re-elected? Can he lead the country? These are all valid questions, in the great nation of America. The validity of his Presidency makes this country look like rubes, all over the world( at least in the part of Asia, where I live.).
Dr. Taitz makes Americans look like assholes; people can’t even determine who can be President, let alone pick one. What a bunch of assholes.
Are you a patriot, or are you a bigot? That is the question you have to answer in your heart.
Bluster on any blog you want, but ask yourself why you hate YOUR President.
Just ask him about kerning.. He got it all from the web, did not fully understand, decided to ‘argue it’ and lost miserably. Uninformed, unable to verify his sources and arguments, the perfect Orly groupie.
Like General Douglas MacArthur said “I shall return”, and I’ve already told you when that would be.
Please no name calling..
8 times in one thread! Why not make it your screen name?
Are you against screen name calling as well?
Little Jimmy is probably lucky I was busy picking on Princess Miki, because I know me, and I could not have kept from re-naming him James Dorkwood Johnson.
It sounds like a really bad porn name.
4.6.1 Mailing Date Format
The mailing date in meter indicia must meet the format standards in this section. The year must be represented by all four digits or by the last two digits. Mailers may print the indicia directly onto mailpieces or onto separate labels or tape affixed to mailpieces. The mailing date format used in the indicia is also subject to the following conditions.”
This applies to postage that companies or individuals print on the envelopes themselves. This does not prove that it was the practice of the Postal Service to let individual Post Offices decide if they would use two or four digits. Even if individual Post Offices were able to decide on using two or four digits for the date, within that post office, the stamps would be uniform.
It would make no sense to order two different kinds of stamps. You would also have to order different year stamps. Some would need four digit dates, and some would need two digit dates. If they ordered two digit dates, the digits would be centered, just like they are on the four digit stamp.
We have seen examples from the same Hawaiian Post Office that Obama registered in that have a 4 digit stamp. It makes no sense that the same Post Office would order four and two digit stamps.
To claim that the first two digits fell off, or were worn down makes no sense. If it was missing or worn down, it would have been replaced. None of the other dates were missing the 19. What are the odds that there is a question about the authenticity of that document, and that is the one and only known case of this irregularity? There is definitely something suspect about that document.
Exactly. Which means it doesn’t apply to cancellation or receipt stamps which is what was used on the Obama draft registration form.
How do you know that?
How do you know this is the only “case of this irregularity”? There are 31,000 post offices today and I’m not sure but I’d guess that there were at least that many back then with probably dozens of these hand cancellers in each one. The only one? I doubt it.
Only in your dreams Tony.
Mr Egg-laying mammal: No one says the stamp had only 2 digits; it’s just that inking is an imperfect process. And this is assuming that the document on the birther web siite is real-something that remains unproven (on most birther web sites, the only thing that is accurate is “the”, and even that is in doubt)
And praytell, why would a forger not make a stamp with 4 digits?
And why forge the document at all? Just say you won’t release it under FOIA and tell the birthers to go F themselves. There is no motive to forge such a document since the President is not subject to laws regarding federal employees (he the elected CEO, not an employee).
Your argument is beyond foolish.
Besides being completely irrelevant because you cite a section about meters, not cancellations, you ever claimed that it was an intentionally only 2 digits.
You do spend quite a bit of time arguing against a position that no one took…
Those are among countless rational explanations. Others include that the stamp wasn’t inked properly, random schmootz on the paper or stamp, the postal employee just hit the paper at a poor angle. We not talking about an exact science here. It is a manual process subject to countless vairable.s
Tonytheplatypus: If it was missing or worn down, it would have been replaced.
And I’m sure it eventually was. However, you’re not talking about a piece of equipment that is required to perform with any percision. It’s a cancellation mark. The fact that it merely leave ink on paper is sufficient. A crisp cancellation really isn’t that important in the greater scheme of things.
Exactly how many hand stampped post marks have you examined? I can assure you, an uneven hand stamped cancellation is nothing unusual. In fact, right in my hand at this moment is a customs declaration from my local post office from just last week, containing a hand stamp. The name of the city is spotty. The state is clear, the Feb is clear, the 2 for the date is clear, the second number is near illegible, and the 2012 is the darkest part of the stamp (USPS is barely visible, but the zip code is clear). And that is just the one example that I currently have access to (and I’m perfectly willing to send it to anyone who asks for it).
The only thing that is suspect is your ability to view things rationally and imparitially. What is more likely, that a stamp was a little worn, or the ink pad perhaps a little dry, or the PO employee, just doesn’t hit the paper right….or…some time in 2008, a then senator Obama, infiltrates the selective service records, a branch of the executive office, then held by Republican George Bush, get’s it’s hand on a Post Office stamp that was around 30 years old, but couldn’t come up with a 19, fakes the selective service document, and then slips it into the records for Selective Service, without anyone ever noticing, just in time for it to be provided in response to a FOIA request.
I’ve seen interesting rubber stamping in my day. A lot of my passport stamps are a little bit hard to read because the ink wasn’t evenly applied. I had a visa that came in the form of a full-page rubber stamp, and the lines and text are really messy looking. A departure stamp at Melbourne Airport was double-pressed and sort of blurs.
I remember asking for a specific hand cancellation a few times for a stamp that wasn’t going to be mailed. Those were done with a lot of care. Once was at the Bryce, Utah contract post office at Ruby’s Inn. I placed a 2005 issue Bryce Canyon international mail stamp from the National Park Service series. I would have done the same (I also had a Yosemite stamp from the same series) at the Yosemite main PO on the same trip, but I arrive there on a Saturday after it was closed. I just mailed it home on a postcard.
From Makiki Station, which happens to be the post office closest to where Obama was living in 1980. These guys are good.
…except for the “19” part, of course. Then they’re bumbling idiots, foiled by those meddling kids from Birferstan.
It was filed around the same time of Bruce Henderson’s, the form numbers are close, the registration numbers are close. All that remains is a poorly inked stamp/missing digits. Is that the extent of your ‘suspicions’? In spite of the fact that all the other data clearly indicate that the form was properly and timely filed?
I like the duck-billed platypus
Because it is anomalous.
I like the way it raises its family
Partly birdly, partly mammaly.
I like its independent attitude.
Let no one call it a duck-billed platitude. – Ogden Nash
Thank you. I’ll be here all week.
In researching my article I looked at a ton of them, and a fair number were completely illegible.
Corsi’s book keeps mentioning the “PIKA stamp.” That’s not a term I was familiar with, so I looked up what a PIKA stamp really was and I was somewhat surprised at the explanation:
JoZeppy, Did you read the initial post? DrConspiracy posted that regulation as a possible explanation why there were only two digits. My post was to dispute his contention. You are so argumentative that you didn’t realize you were actually arguing my point. You also said that nobody is making the two digit stamp argument. That was exactly what DrConspiracy was suggesting by posting that regulation.
Look at the stamp on the document. Other than the 19 missing, the stamp looks good. The circles are even all around, so it doesn’t make sense that the stamp had uneven wear. If it was a matter of uneven wear, at least a small part of the 1 or 9 should have been there, and part of the 8 or part of the circle and text on the left side should have been worn.
On another topic, someone tried to explain away the fact that the no ID box was checked and the signature didn’t match Barack’s signature from a few years later. They said it was possible a friend in Hawaii signed it for him since Barack was in California, and at least he registered. Think about what that person was saying. They thought it was okay that someone signed Obama’s name for him. The fact that someone else might have signed it automatically would make the document a fraud. You Obots make fun of birthers, but you guys aren’t too bright either.
A fraud?… That’s just ridiculous. How can filing a form by someone else be a fraud? You are assuming that Obama could not have signed it beforehand and then dropped it off at the Post Office? Geez. That’s another simple explanation that appears to have escaped you.
PS: Are we done on the foundling and natural born thread? Not much left I gather?
The U in USPO is also partially missing, in the same ‘corner’ And since the document was scanned in B&W, the 19 may every well have disappeared due to the cutoff being too high. It would be helpful to see a greyscale for Obama’s just as for the other documents.
My signature from 20 years ago looks nothing like my signature today.
As for where he would be in July, wouldn’t that normally be summer vacation? For academic year 2011-12, Occidental College classes started on August 31.
And how does our platypus friend explain that Obama and Bruce Henderson who filed close in time and location got very close form numbers and registration numbers? In fact, they were registered at the same date into the system.
Explain that? You are looking for minor discrepancies while ignoring the overall evidence that undermine your position.
Is there a reason for that?
My signature changed significantly, since a stroke. Before the stroke, it was significantly different from college.
As far as everything else, I don’t care. George Romney was born in Mexico purportedly to US citizens, and there wasn’t this outcry when he tried a run for president.
Since you are new here, I will repeat what I have written before: I drove from DC to Anchorage in February, 2001 for the Iditarod. While there, I met a man who was a minister in the Anchorage AoG, which is Sarah Palin’s denomination; she belongs to the Wasilla AoG. When I told him I was Jewish, he stridently told me all the terrible things that would befall the Jewish people, and demanded I let him baptize me.
When I twice refused, he bellowed at me “Auschwitz was divine retribution because you people have refused to accept God’s only son.” A woman with him told me Jewish people “deserve to suffer.” Palin’s denomination preaches that, among others. I also had told him my wife from Kaohsiung was Buddhist. He called her “an idol worshipper,” said “Buddhism should be banned,” and “the 1st Amendment is wrong.”
He demanded I give him the amulet my wife gave me, so he could put it in the trash.
This election is about subversion of the 1st Amendment, and the US Constitution, Article VI, paragraph 3: “…no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” The Blunt Amendment was nothing more than an attempt to tear down that wall.
Santorum has said that Kennedy’s 1960 speech to a Dallas group of Baptist ministers on the separation of church and state made him want to “throw up.”
“I have opponents in this race who do not want to change the Constitution,” Huckabee told a Michigan audience on Monday. “But I believe it’s a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living god. And that’s what we need to do — to amend the Constitution so it’s in God’s standards…” Mike Huckabee thinks it’s time to put an end to that.
Huckabee’s son hung a dog, and tortured it to death. He stopped the state police investigation. Romney tied his dog to the roof of his car, for 12 hours. Why would I vote for people who enjoy animal cruelty?
I will remember all of this, every time I go into the voting booth – and that you can believe in.
Later in life I had a volunteer job that required me to sign my name 100 time a day. Guess what? My signature changed and became somewhat simplified. I daresay Senator Obama had to sign his name a lot too.
There was a faint mumble, though.
Suffer through a real estate closing …. it will happen before your eyes in less than an hour!
Excellent post, Misha! Being very familiar with the AoG, I am not surprised … they’re not all that nuts. It’s a denomination birthed in millenialist fever, and the farthest right of any organized denomination. To get nuttier, you have to go to the independents … standalone pentecostal churches, snake handlers, isolated cults, and the classic example …. Westboro.
Not to argue: “Questions were occasionally asked about Romney’s eligibility to run for President owing to his birth in Mexico, given the ambiguity in the United States Constitution over the phrase “natural-born citizen”. Romney departed the race before the matter could be more definitively resolved, although the preponderance of opinion since then has been that he was eligible.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Romney
Actually, with the exception of the Jul 29 and 80, all lettering looks fairly worn. Which is consistent with the month, day, and last two digits of the year being the only ones that were removable.
Perhaps he forgot to bring his drivers license? If they were forging the document outright, why would the check the no ID box? That make no bloody sense at all!! Do you even try to have a consistent story, or do you just throw sh!t on the wall and see what sticks?
And exactly how many examples from the time period have you examined? I assume you can provide us with at least a couple dozen, since you made such a definitive statement. I, not having seen very many examples, and certainly not enough to make such a judgement, cant speak in this issue. But please, do provide us with a few examples, and we can discuss..
Who is “they”?
Why? I don’t even know who this person is, so why should I care?
And you come to this conclusion based on your strawman argument?
This is the language of Concern Trolls. You don’t actually say what you’re suspicious of, or what your suspicions might imply. We are left to make assumptions. I will venture a guess, and assume that you are almost, but not quite saying that you suspect that President Obama, when required to do so in 1980, did not register for Selective Service. I will go futher and suggest that you are almost, but not quite saying that President Obama, or someone working on his behalf, forged this document at a later date.
I note that you do not lodge any such accusations, and are in fact quite careful to avoid making any claims at all. You just voice your “concern” and even throw the word “definitely” in there in case that helps cloud the fact that you don’t actually have anything specific to be suspicious about.
Make a claim and then present evidence that supports that claim, don’t use weasel words to imply that others should do all this for you.
I’ll say it. I’ve seen many a date stamp that had rubber number rings that were selected by knurled wheels. It was common enough that the rubber rings would have a flat spot. It would not be the dumbest office story I’ve ever heard if you told me that some manager decided it would be better to dial in a 2-digit date, and had some clerk do so as an order. The things I’ve seen have taught me to never try to second guess a functionary when it comes to his or her function.
But until someone makes an accusation of a specific crime against a specific individual with regard to this alleged date stamp, I’m totally confident to say it doesn’t mean anything.
Is anyone actually saying that this document is evidence of a crime, and if so, committed by whom, and in violation of what law or lawful order?
I want to add, I have health insurance on my cat and my dog. It sure beats the Republican way.
Hey everyone: Gail Collins has a great column about Mitt and the dog. Enjoy!
Another great site:
Dogs Against Romney – http://www.dogsagainstromney.com/
Great find, Misha. I love it!
Has anyone expained this? The DLN number has a number missing, too. I suppose that stamp was worn out, too. It’s a ten digit number on one side. Then, it becomes an eleven digit number. 0897080632 becomes 80897080632. So either that stamp was worn out on one digit, hehehehehehe, or they added an eight to correctly match the year.
Yes, like for the other selective services forms of those days, the 10 digit was extended to 11 digits
There is an interesting observation here
Either way, we know that the form matches the one filed by Henderson, a few days later from Hawaii, and differs by 29 IIRC. Both Henderson and Obama were assigned SS registration numbers on the same date: 61-1125539-1 and 61-1125522-7
Henderson’s DLN 897080613 changed to 8970806130
Obama’s DLN 897050632 changed to 8970506320
The RIMS system printout shows a preceding 8 instead of a trailing 0
Allen’s printout is from a different system. Will do some research. Both were signed by Flahavan.
We also know that the RIMS system printout shows a transaction date of 9/4/80. Presumably that is the date when Obama’s registration was entered into the database. The of course shoots a gaping hole into the theory that the documents were created in 2008.
Yes, at the same time as Bruce Henderson who filed his a few days after Obama from Hawaii. His DLN is 29 away from Obama’s and his SSS number is also quite close
Much ado about nothing really
The Selective Service Card was received in response to an FOIA Request, by Ken Allen. The Selective Service Agency dragged their feet on the FOIA, until Mr. Allen had to threaten a “lawsuit” against the Agency. The Agency finally “honored” the FOIA Request.
What is the measure for “feet dragging”? Is there a statistically valid measured length of time for acceptable compliance?
How do you know those events are connected and not coincidence? How many lawsuits are filed for FOIA requests?
By “honored” are you implying there was a distinction placed on this request by the SSA that was different than other requests? Do you have credible evidence of this?
The only Ken Allen FOIA dump I’ve seen was related to Obama senior. Was there another?
The SSS card I’ve seen, according to Debbie Schlussel’s rant, was provided in response to a request filed by “retired Federal agent” J. Stephen Coffman.
Although Schlussel’s page has lots of things that just aren’t true (such as the leading digits of the document number being directly tied to the year), and lots of other things that have been slanted or just plain left out, the sequence that I get from it is:
1. Sometime in 2008 (“Early this year”, specific date not given), Coffman made a non-FOIA request to the SSS to verify that Obama had registered.
2. On September 9, the SSS responded that he had, and gave him Obama’s registration number.
3. On October 13, 2008, Coffman made a FOIA request.
4. On October 27, the SSS received the FOIA request.
5. On October 29, the SSS sent him the form, and a screen print of the September 9 data lookup.
Without knowing the date for (1), we have no idea how much “footdragging” there was between his first query and their providing the affirmative.
The actual FOIA request seems to have been handled pretty quickly as such things go — about 2 weeks from when he dropped it in the mailbox.
Allen filed his FOIA request with Selective Service on 2/9/09 and he received his response less than a month later.
That’s some pretty fancy footdragging.
Do you people know the difference between a “meter stamp” and a “round stamp”?
The YEAR in a meter stamp run thru a machine for postage is allowed to show a TWO digit year.
The YEAR in a Postal round dater, HAND STAMP (or bopper) must ALWAYS show the year as FOUR digits.
Any postal windown clerk could look at that Obama Selective Service registration and tell you in a second, that it is a FORGERY.
I don’t know who you are addressing as “you people.” In any case, do you have a postal official who would be willing to testify in the form of a sworn deposition as to their expert knowledge that the document in question is a forgery? Who is the postal official that you have in mind, and how may we contact him or her?
So President Obama used graphic editing software to piece together his forged birth certificates, but carved up a rubber stamp to make a paper forgery of his selective service card?
I love it when Birthers and other cranks use jingoistic terms in their user names. When I see a “RealAmerican1776” or “TruePatriot1781” or “Patriotallday”, I chuckle because it seems so… cartoonish. I just imagine a more paranoid version of Hank Hill sitting behind his computer.
Wouldn’t that be Dale Gribble?
Here, “Patriot”, this should keep you busy:
After you’ve digested the US portions (1, 2, and 3), try googling “vintage US postmarks”.
Perhaps the chaos and variety of daily life in the real world will begin to sink in.
Want to try boiling more broad, vast topics down into simple, pithy, unsupported blanket statements again?
And, again, how does this affect a person’s eligibility to the Office of the Presidency? Why were birthers digging up this selective service stuff in the first place?
Whio found this thing anyway? Did President Obama present it? No, a birther dug it up.
Not really. It would be more like a hybrid personality of Dale and Hank. Dale was the paranoid conspiracy theorist, but he didn’t really have that heavily patriotic “America is the greatest thing in the world and is totally infallible” attitude that Hank did.
Well I think that, like the crank claims about social security fraud, the idea is to say that he committed a crime and should be tried for it. It’s a separate thing from the eligibility issues.
So you’re telling us that never in the history of the Post Office or Postal Service has a hand canceller lost any of the elements – like the century numbers – and then been used?
Is that what you’re saying?
When idiotic birther bigots start with the conclusion they want and work backwards, anything is possible, plausible and suddenly stunning in its obviousness.
Can’t wait to see his explanation for how Obama got the Selective Service folks to issue it before he was President.
Yes, but when will they realize even if true, this won’t make Obama go away? Or rewind the last 3 years?
Yeah, I know ….. never.
At least some of the nuts are tasty.
Here’s an interesting site…http://www.postmarks.org For $20, you could get a CD of their entire collection of Hawaii postmarks. Or you could attend their convention in Branson July 25 — 28, 2012 to meet with collectors of postmarks from all over the country.
Did the Cold Case Posse or any of the birther detectives contact these folks for their expertise? Hmmm… I think I’ll ask them.