Main Menu

Orly Taitz: US is dictatorship

“I know what it is to live in a dictatorship . . . where the whole system is corrupt,” Taitz said. “And that’s what we’re seeing here.”

That’s what the New Hampshire Concord Monitor reports Taitz told them. In an article about the birther’s challenge to Obama’s appearance on the 2012 Presidential Ballot. Taitz alleges fraud on the part of Obama, whom she believes is not eligible to be President of the United States because he does not have a natural born social-security number.

Birther news rag WorldNetDaily reports that the New Hampshire Election Commission said Obama was good to go after a brief meeting yesterday, November 18, despite a presentation of Taitz’s “alleged” evidence that Congress erred in certifying the election of Obama in 2008, in an 85-page packet of material.

The Concord Monitor today reports angry responses from the birthers who attended the meeting.

“Saying a treasonous liar can go on our ballot?” yelled State Rep. Harry Accornero, a Republican from Laconia. “You’re going to have to face the citizens of Laconia. You better wear a mask.”

One of the New Hampshire legislators seemed confused, thinking that the US Constitution was written in Switzerland by a guy named Vattel.

As of this writing, Taitz had not issued an official statement on her web site about the Commission’s decision.

,

164 Responses to Orly Taitz: US is dictatorship

  1. avatar
    Bob November 19, 2011 at 8:49 am #

    The cowards at WND removed their article (Wow! New Hampshire wakes up . . .) as soon as Orly lost.

  2. avatar
    Foggy November 19, 2011 at 8:55 am #

    If this be Dick Tater Ship, make the most of it!

  3. avatar
    Dr. Bob November 19, 2011 at 9:28 am #

    Orly . . . ugh. You. Just. Cannot. Cure. Stupid.

  4. avatar
    Reality Check November 19, 2011 at 9:42 am #

    I had a special radio program last night with a report on the Board hearing by an attendee:

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/rcr/2011/11/19/rc-radio–the-nuts-in-new-hampshire-special-edition

  5. avatar
    John November 19, 2011 at 10:00 am #

    Follow up article in the Concord Monitor:

    Lots of outrage by the assembled cast and crew.

  6. avatar
    G November 19, 2011 at 10:12 am #

    Well, there were some interesting tidbits about the NH GOP Birthers in that Concord article.

    So, we now know that at least 4 of the NH GOP state-level congress-critters are Birthers:

    Backing her complaint, Taitz said, are four Republican members of the New Hampshire House: Harry Accornero of Laconia, Larry Rappaport of Colebrook, and Lucien and Carol Vita of Middleton.

    The article also notes that Rappaport & BOTH of the Vitas are Ron Paul supporters.

    That is an interesting statistic and one to monitor as the GOP primaries move forward. This is the 1st *solid* correlation between individual Birthers and any actual running GOP candidate I’ve seen so far (Trump & Palin don’t count).

    It will be interesting to see if this emerges as a trend amongst the Birtheristani and if so, if such support ends up getting mentioned in broader media. I’m betting that none of the current GOP candidates want to be tarnished with the stink of Birtherism on them, including Ron Paul. Then again, he’s always been fairly good at brushing off any connection between the views, statements and beliefs of any of his supporters and himself.

    On a much more entertaining note, the comments from these Birthers themselves say it all:

    RAPPAPORT: “”I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer”

    LOL! I’ll file that one under DUH! Hey Rappaport, you are a Birther. The rest is obvious and goes without saying.

    Vita said he’s confident the Republican candidates are American citizens “because these people have all held other state offices” – though he acknowledged that could also apply to Obama, who was a U.S. senator before being elected president.

    *facepalm* Ah…the typical hypocricy on display by Birthers… amazing the cognative dissonance they display in not being able to see that…

  7. avatar
    G November 19, 2011 at 10:15 am #

    And wow…the usual hardcore Birtheristani are crapping all over the comments section, in typical fashion…LMAO!

    This is the most riled up I’ve seen these crybabies get in awhile. Tracy, aka KenyanBornObamaAcorn has been busy vomiting over this and just about every other Youtube and article on the subject. I’ve never seen such an obsessive sore loser…

    G: Well, there were some interesting tidbits about the NH GOP Birthers in that Concord article.

  8. avatar
    john November 19, 2011 at 10:16 am #

    Watch Orly Taitz Grill the New Hampshire SOS and the Assistant AG like a Fish!
    Their Responses – Ummm and Duhh
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aie-UCBrwiQ

  9. avatar
    G November 19, 2011 at 10:25 am #

    Thanks for the update link, John!

    Hmmm…from the article, there are a few other NH GOP politicians that can be added to the Birther list:

    Dick Marple, a former state representative

    state Rep. Susan DeLemus, a Republican from Rochester

    John: Follow up article in the Concord Monitor:

    Lots of outrage by the assembled cast and crew.

  10. avatar
    Jules November 19, 2011 at 10:57 am #

    Taitz’s ramblings are pretty meaningless. She had her fifteen minutes of fame and now she’s just someone who is wrong on the Internet.

  11. avatar
    GeorgetownJD November 19, 2011 at 11:02 am #

    john:
    Watch Orly Taitz Grill the New Hampshire SOS and the Assistant AG like a Fish!
    Their Responses – Ummm and Duhh
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aie-UCBrwiQ

    Yeah, that is what happens when you question an employee of the Secretary of State’s office about what the employees of a WHOLE DIFFERENT AGENCY do.

  12. avatar
    Northland10 November 19, 2011 at 11:28 am #

    john:
    Watch Orly Taitz Grill the New Hampshire SOS and the Assistant AG like a Fish!
    Their Responses – Ummm and Duhh
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aie-UCBrwiQ

    And she did so well that the board ruled in her favor. Oh wait, she lost… again.

  13. avatar
    Tarrant November 19, 2011 at 11:35 am #

    Vita’s statement to me is the saddest. Despite the fact that Obama meets all the credentials he sets forth for te Republican candidates, AND the fact that Obama’s various qualifying documents are widely available while the Republican candidates have released nothing (nor should they have to, but then again Obama shouldn’t have had to either), he trusts they are eligible without proof, and believes Obama ineligible despite proof.

    Gee, could it be he’s a black Democrat?

  14. avatar
    Northland10 November 19, 2011 at 11:37 am #

    Northland10: And she did so well that the board ruled in her favor.Oh wait, she lost… again.

    “John,” Orly and the others are like an 0-22 team who lost another game 3-63 and blame the loss on the officials.

  15. avatar
    realist November 19, 2011 at 11:46 am #

    In addition to Reality Check’s excellent radio program last night on the commission hearing in NH there is a written version from an observer here http://www.scribd.com/doc/73157849/NEW-HAMPSHIRE-BALLOT-CHALLENGE-HEARING-REPORT-11-18-11-As-Reported-by-Whatever4-of-The-Fogbow

  16. avatar
    Tarrant November 19, 2011 at 11:47 am #

    Reading the comments on the Concord newspaper story makes me a little depressed about the country. But there is some real crazy to be seen by the comments by Joseph Haas, who I guess also had a complaint in front of the Board (which was denied). His argument was essentially that payment by check doesn’t constitute payment because checks aren’t legal tender, and this people that paid by check shouldn’t count as having paid until it clears. Or something equally nutty.

    The thing is his comments are filled with seemingly random capitalization of entire words or even parts of words (“PAYment”). Some make no sense…he likes to capitalize “the” a lot. Is that a sovereign citizen thing?

    His comments are recommended reading.

  17. avatar
    richCares November 19, 2011 at 11:48 am #

    john always touts Orly’s OMG moments yet never acknowleges that they always fail. Kinda Strange!

  18. avatar
    Lupin November 19, 2011 at 11:59 am #

    I hate to nitpick but this statement:

    “One of the New Hampshire legislators seemed confused, thinking that the US Constitution was written in Switzerland by a guy named Vattel.”

    …might lead one to believe that you endorse the view that, had Vattel written the US Constitution, Obama would then be ineligible.

    As you know from our numerous exchanges here, no accurate reading of Vattel’s Law of Nations leads to that conclusion, au contraire.

  19. avatar
    Northland10 November 19, 2011 at 12:14 pm #

    Tarrant: The thing is his comments are filled with seemingly random capitalization of entire words or even parts of words (“PAYment”). Some make no sense…he likes to capitalize “the” a lot. Is that a sovereign citizen thing?

    I followed up on one of the screamers in the audience which led me to his blog (I am not mentioning who, as the actual person does not matter). There, one can be enjoy his links to Dr. Kate and Lame Cherry along with chemtrails and the Restore America Plan. All the finest show up for an Orly event.

  20. avatar
    Majority Will November 19, 2011 at 12:20 pm #

    Tarrant:
    Reading the comments on the Concord newspaper story makes me a little depressed about the country. But there is some real crazy to be seen by the comments by Joseph Haas, who I guess also had a complaint in front of the Board (which was denied). His argument was essentially that payment by check doesn’t constitute payment because checks aren’t legal tender, and this people that paid by check shouldn’t count as having paid until it clears. Or something equally nutty.

    The thing is his comments are filled with seemingly random capitalization of entire words or even parts of words (“PAYment”). Some make no sense…he likes to capitalize “the” a lot. Is that a sovereign citizen thing?

    His comments are recommended reading.

    If payment by check doesn’t constitute payment, then Orly’s BofA check she wrote to pay her $20,000 sanction was insufficient to settle her debt.

  21. avatar
    Sef November 19, 2011 at 12:21 pm #

    I am in agreement with Foggy’s and Butterfly Bilderberg’s replies to Loren at The Fogbow on pages 19 & 20 { http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=6843&sid=920a4e6b4f53977b84778c91897db69d&start=475 ) (I don’t know how to quote a particular reply of The Fogbow). I think the NH ballot access is a case of “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it”. All too often legislators are elected and then their days are consumed with “What will I fix today?” Certain people have paid for them to be there and they feel they should be dong “something”. They may hear about bridges about to collapse and think that probably no one important will die when they collapse, at least none of their donors. Or maybe some of their constituents will get jobs rebuilding the bridge after it collapses. We do live in a sick society, but our legislators think they should cure acne, instead of cancer.

  22. avatar
    john November 19, 2011 at 12:24 pm #

    Orly has not issued a Blog statement yet but Charles Kerchner has. I could not agree more with his statement. I don’t believe Orly failed at all. It was the failure of corrupt Obot appointees who fail their honor their oaths.
    Charles Kerchner’s statement – An A+

    The New Hampshire Election Commission has ducked the issue and Obama’s enablers are gaming the system once again. In effect, even if Obama is a criminal and committing identity theft they would allow him on the ballot simply because he filled out his application of candidacy and paid the $1000 fee. What a bunch of B.S. Once again these officials are totally ignoring their oath of office to support and defend the Constitution of the United States and instead eagerly look for legal obfuscations and technicalities in their law books to allow them to duck the issue instead of bringing it to a head to get it resolved by forcing Obama to produce true and correct paper certified copies with raised seals of the original contemporaneously generated documents sent directly from the issuing agencies (State of Hawaii original 1/2 hand typed and 1/2 hand written vault copy contemporaneously created long form 1961 Birth Certificate and the Social Security Administration SS-5 form for the SSN Obama is using 042-68-4425) instead of fabricated, forged internet images and unsubstantiated statements from Obama, his handlers, and the Obama campaign. This is a disgrace. And our main stream media is the enabler and facilitators allowing this to happen.

    # # # #

    See evidence Obama forged the birth certificate posted on White House servers 27 Apr 2011: http://www.scribd.com/​collections/3166684

    See evidence Obama is using a SSN not legally issued to him: http://www.scribd.com/​collections/3260742

    See evidence of Obama’s forged and back dated draft registration here: http://​www.debbieschlussel.com/4428/​exclusive-did-next-commander-in​-chief-falsify-selective-servi​ce-registration-never-actually​-register-obamas-draft-registr​ation-raises-serious-questions​/

    Adjectives mean something. Barack Obama may be a Citizen of the United States’. But he is not a natural born Citizen of the United States’ and does not meet the constitutional standards as to who can be the President and Commander in Chief of our military: http://puzo1.blogspot.com/​2010/03/​obama-maybe-citizen-of-united-s​tates.html

    South Carolina Poll Results – A poll done by Public Policy Polling (PPP) shows that almost 2/3 of GOP Voters Want Obama Eligibility Investigated. This is not a fringe issue: http://www.wnd.com/​index.php?fa=PAGE.printable&pag​eId=340805

    CDR Charles Kerchner (Ret)
    Lehigh Valley PA USA
    http://​www.protectourliberty.org/
    http://​cdrkerchner.wordpress.com/

  23. avatar
    Majority Will November 19, 2011 at 12:46 pm #

    Sef: We do live in a sick society, but our legislators think they should cure acne, instead of cancer.

    Then State Rep. Harry Accornero is a zit ready to pop.

  24. avatar
    Joey November 19, 2011 at 1:56 pm #

    Orly blames the New Hampshire Democrats for her latest defeat (in spite of the fact that her two biggest nemeses have been Republican appointed federal judges: Royce Lamberth, appointed by Reagan andJudge Land, who fined her $20,000, appointed by George W. Bush).

    It is good to remember that a conservative Republican named Fred Hollander was upset in 2008 when moderate John McCain won the New Hampshire Republican primary. Hollander sued McCain and the Republican National Committee on the grounds that McCain was not a natural born citizen due to his birth in Panama.

    McCain’s lawyers and the Republican Party’s lawyers got the lawsuit dismissed in US District Court in New Hampshire on the grounds that Hollander lacked standing to sue.
    Sound familiar?

  25. avatar
    Sef November 19, 2011 at 2:10 pm #

    Let’s do the math: 4 NH legislators join Orly’s crusade. There are 400 (leg + sen) in the NH legislature. That’s 1%. Where have I heard a comparison of” the 1%” to “the 99%” recently?

  26. avatar
    john November 19, 2011 at 2:16 pm #

    There is still hope for New Hampshire!!!!
    http://www.sos.nh.gov/statutes.htm
    “Jurisdiction
    665:6 General Duties. The ballot law commission shall have jurisdiction in the following cases: I. When the nominations at the primary, as declared pursuant to RSA 659:86-89, are in apparent conformity with law, they shall be valid unless changed upon recount as provided by law *********or unless written objection to their conformity with the law shall be filed with the secretary of state within 3 days of the date of publication of the results of the primary*********** by the secretary of state under RSA 659:89; or, if there is a recount for the office in question, within 3 days after the declaration of the secretary of state upon such recount. If written objections are filed, the secretary of state shall forthwith notify the ballot law commission of such filing. The ballot law commission shall then meet as provided in RSA 665:5 in order to hear and decide all the objections. The decision of the ballot law commission in such cases shall be final as to questions both of law and fact, and no court shall have jurisdiction to review such decision.”

  27. avatar
    Obsolete November 19, 2011 at 6:19 pm #

    Hey John,
    Maybe Orly would have won if she threatened to spank the officials?

  28. avatar
    Sef November 19, 2011 at 6:32 pm #

    What I think is somewhat sad about Orly’s legal shenanigans is that no one in authority has told her that her theories are totally absurd. Court cases are dismissed for standing reasons, but this allows her and her flying monkeys’ feeble brains to fester on their made-up problems.

    Someone should tell her that most databases have problems, especially when there are millions and millions of records and the data validation upon entry is limited. (It also looks like some of them are poorly designed.) So, her misunderstanding about things in DBs with SSN entries led her telling the world about President Obama;s SSN. This, quite probably, led to the SSA issuing him (and maybe Michelle) a new SSN, thus leading to the eVerify failures. If she had been shot down initially it wouldn’t have gotten this bad. The problem is not so much her beliefs, but how much she has has stirred up other people with her nonsense. The consequences could be dire.

    Similarly for the birth certificate issues & the 2-citizen-parent nonsense.

    I doubt the MSM has as much understanding of these issues as the people frequenting these blogs, so they probably need to be educated. Does anyone have any good contacts in the media where people could be enlightened?

  29. avatar
    Bob J November 19, 2011 at 7:19 pm #

    Corruption is such an easy word to write. I really love how every birther defeat is turned to victory by the claim; the defeat is proof of how widespread the corruption truly is. My question to John, and birthers in general, is; if this corrupt, criminal enterprise is so vast why can’t any of it be proven? Certainly with a conspiracy involving tens of thousands of people, there is a weak link.

    By taking birther logic, I have determined ; Angelina Jolie is in love with me. Obviously Brad Pitt is trying to destroy our love. She won’t talk to me. Proof of the Pitt conspiracy to keep me down. She pretends not to know me. The Hollywood corrupt establishment doesn’t like the fact that I am shorter than Jolie, so they act to keep us apart. It is all a plot to prevent her from expressing her true love for me.Every day she ignores me shows her true feelings.

    Delusion is a fun place to visit for a spell, but for those who live there; what is the appeal?

  30. avatar
    GeorgetownJD November 19, 2011 at 8:12 pm #

    john: When the nominations at the primary, as declared pursuant to RSA 659:86-89, are in apparent conformity with law, they shall be valid unless changed upon recount

    Good grief. Did you actually read the statute provision you posted? How about this …

    “When the nominations at the primary, as declared pursuant to RSA 659:86-89, are in apparent conformity with law, they shall be valid unless changed upon recount …”

    Did you bother to look up RSA 659:86-89?

    No, of course not. Those are the provisions for counting election returns for the primary election. At the end of the day, after all the primary votes are counted, each party’s nomination is discerned. If there is any objection to the returns of a town, ward or district, the Ballot Law Commission has jurisdiction under RSA 665:6 “to hear and decide all the objections.”

    In other words, Legal Beagle John, the statute that you believe “gives hope” to the birther cause has absolutely nothing to do with yesterday’s hearing.

    Geez, Louise, you are as incompetent at law as Orly.

  31. avatar
    Judge Mental November 19, 2011 at 8:37 pm #

    GeorgetownJD: Good grief.Did you actually read the statute provision you posted?How about this …

    “When the nominations at the primary, as declared pursuant to RSA 659:86-89, are in apparent conformity with law, they shall be valid unless changed upon recount …”

    Did you bother to look up RSA 659:86-89?

    No, of course not.Those are the provisions for counting election returns for the primary election. At the end of the day, after all the primary votes are counted, each party’s nomination is discerned.If there is any objection to the returns of a town, ward or district, the Ballot Law Commission has jurisdiction under RSA 665:6 “to hear and decide all the objections.”

    In other words, Legal Beagle John, the statute that you believe “gives hope” to the birther cause has absolutely nothing to do with yesterday’s hearing.

    Geez, Louise, you are as incompetent at law as Orly.

    Couldn’t make this stuff up. If we wrote comments like John’s into the script of a spoof satire film about birthers Hollywood would reject it as too far fetched that anyone with a purported strong interest in the subject could be quite so incredibly ignorant.

  32. avatar
    Joe Acerbic November 19, 2011 at 8:45 pm #

    Sef:
    Someone should tell her that most databases have problems, especially when there are millions and millions of records and the data validation upon entry is limited. (It also looks like some of them are poorly designed.)

    Au contraire, the databases birfoons use to fuel their Obama SSN delusions are designed quite competently to produce oodles of bogus “associations” because that’s how they are sold to all the rubes who then imagine there’s some relevant data there.

  33. avatar
    katahdin November 19, 2011 at 9:07 pm #

    Bob J: By taking birther logic, I have determined ; Angelina Jolie is in love with me. Obviously Brad Pitt is trying to destroy our love. She won’t talk to me. Proof of the Pitt conspiracy to keep me down. She pretends not to know me. The Hollywood corrupt establishment doesn’t like the fact that I am shorter than Jolie, so they act to keep us apart. It is all a plot to prevent her from expressing her true love for me.Every day she ignores me shows her true feelings.
    Delusion is a fun place to visit for a spell, but for those who live there; what is the appeal?

    All that sweet imaginary lovin’ from Angelina?

  34. avatar
    Rickey November 19, 2011 at 9:40 pm #

    GeorgetownJD:
    In other words, Legal Beagle John, the statute that you believe “gives hope” to the birther cause has absolutely nothing to do with yesterday’s hearing.

    Geez, Louise, you are as incompetent at law as Orly.

    John’s ignorance of the law is exceeded only by his inability to recognize that he is ignorant.

  35. avatar
    john November 19, 2011 at 9:46 pm #

    Clearly the NH Ballot Election Commission is corrupt. As Orly pointed out, Obama has an “Identity Problem” is virtually every respect. NH is essentially accepted a candidate on the ballot in which they know “nothing” about beyond a name and $1000 fee. NH also knows damn well they have the authority and duty to remove Obama from the ballot as precident has been established for it as a person who was born in Eygpt was removed from the ballot a couple of years ago. Orly gave a masterful argument but she should have taken another hour to try her evidence to the specific statues. Orly should have brought up the person who was born in Eygpt precident.

  36. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 19, 2011 at 10:10 pm #

    john: Clearly the NH Ballot Election Commission is corrupt. As Orly pointed out, Obama has an “Identity Problem” is virtually every respect.

    The Elections Commission asked Taitz if she had any real evidence beyond suspicion and she admitted that she didn’t.

    Even Taitz isn’t so crazy as to think she has the goods on Obama, only that she has suspicions that she believes will be borne out upon investigation.

    Birthers are cranks who have whipped themselves into a frenzy of mutual delusion. No serious body, such as the New Hampshire Elections Commission, is going to make decisions based on fantasy. The Commission isn’t corrupt; they are sane.

  37. avatar
    john November 19, 2011 at 10:32 pm #

    I disagree. I listened to whole hearing. Orly’s evidence was compelling and convincing. While FogBow members might tear apart later, it is unbelieveable that a person hearing Orly explain the evidence would dismiss it has just speculation or suspision. Orly cited persons, government organization, and actual investigation that clearly pointed to fraud.

  38. avatar
    john November 19, 2011 at 10:36 pm #

    I think NH is now a dead end. It might be possible to raise a complaint when the primary results come in. I think now some should investigate filing a complaint in South Carolina, the next primary. Pamela Barnett is organizing a movement where it is hoped that an election complaint can be raised in each and every state. Still, I think our best hope is with Sheriff Arpaio and what his investigation will reveal. At least that could possibly be used as basis for a election complaint.

  39. avatar
    Majority Will November 19, 2011 at 11:06 pm #

    ” . . . try her evidence to the specific statues.”

    Is that for intensive purposes?

  40. avatar
    US Citizen November 20, 2011 at 1:15 am #

    All this does is make me angry.
    Here I’ve worked for 30+ years at an honest trade and treating people with respect, not over-charging them and doing good work.
    I own now a broken down car and have no health coverage.

    But here Orly lives in a $2+ million dollar house and drives nice cars, but never wins cases.
    NH legislators also get good salaries, paid healthcare, expense accounts and yet some couldn’t even pass an IQ test designed for a gold fish.

    You know, I’d feel even worse how I’ve wasted my life and ended up hurt and broke if it wasn’t for my girlfriend, Angelina Jolie.

  41. avatar
    sactosintolerant November 20, 2011 at 1:33 am #

    john: Clearly the NH Ballot Election Commission is corrupt. As Orly pointed out, Obama has an “Identity Problem” is virtually every respect.

    I know it hurts to hear, but this is a good opportunity to remind you that there is absolutely NO evidence that your president, Barack Obama, was born anywhere other than Honolulu, Hawaii to Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack Obama… or that the PDF of his long-form birth certificate is a digital forgery… or that he has claimed to have been born in more than one hospital… or that he has more than one social security number… or that to qualify as a “natural-born citizen” requires two US citizen parents… or that he has spent millions hiding his past. A million trillion butterdezillion false claims and bits of unsubstantiated gossip may seem like something, but it’s worth exactly nothing… nothing more than nothing.

  42. avatar
    Joey November 20, 2011 at 2:03 am #

    Let’s go to the scorecard.

    The Birthers have now lost:
    83 Original Jurisdiction Lawsuits
    49 state or federal appeals
    16 US Supreme Court Decisions
    1 US Army Court Martial
    1 state administrative hearing
    There have been ZERO Grand Jury hearings

  43. avatar
    DP November 20, 2011 at 3:13 am #

    john:
    Clearly the NH Ballot Election Commission is corrupt.As Orly pointed out, Obama has an “Identity Problem” is virtually every respect.NH is essentially accepted a candidate on the ballot in which they know “nothing” about beyond a name and $1000 fee.NH also knows damn well they have the authority and duty to remove Obama from the ballot as precident has been established for it as a person who was born in Eygpt was removed from the ballot a couple of years ago.Orly gave a masterful argument but she should have taken another hour to try her evidence to the specific statues.Orly should have brought up the person who was born in Eygpt precident.

    I hope for your sake this is an elaborate form of sarcastic theatre, simply parroting absurdity for its self-revealing qualities. If you truly believe obvious nonsense like this, or God help humanity, truly believe that Orly’s presentation was masterful, you should seek professional therapy.

  44. avatar
    Steve November 20, 2011 at 3:19 am #

    On the WND piece, somebody was talking about “elected serpents.”

    “With few exceptions Like Rep Accornero, elected serpents everywhere have become traitors and cowards. It is time We the People demand they be charged with treason and if convicted, punished according by means of hanging or firing squad. “

  45. avatar
    Obsolete November 20, 2011 at 4:43 am #

    It is obvious that birthers (like John and Orly) are borderline Stalinists, who want one-party rule as they spit on Democracy. They would arrest, deport, or shoot the 67,000,000 of their fellow Americans who voted for the guy with the skin color they despise.

    I am kind of surprised at how unhinged the birthers are over their defeat in New Hampshire. I didn’t think that they actually expected to win, but it seems they were already planning the parade.
    Maybe next time!

  46. avatar
    Lupin November 20, 2011 at 5:39 am #

    john: Clearly the NH Ballot Election Commission is corrupt.

    Clearly you are a fool.

  47. avatar
    Lupin November 20, 2011 at 5:41 am #

    Obsolete: I am kind of surprised at how unhinged the birthers are over their defeat in New Hampshire. I didn’t think that they actually expected to win, but it seems they were already planning the parade.

    They’re waiting with bated breath for this moment:

    http://imagecache5.art.com/LRG/37/3727/HIPAF00Z.jpg

  48. avatar
    Dr. Bob November 20, 2011 at 6:30 am #

    sactosintolerant: A million trillion butterdezillion false claims and bits of unsubstantiated gossip may seem like something, but it’s worth exactly nothing… nothing more than nothing.

    butterdezillion? Good. Thanks for saying it all! The false claims, gossip, and other garbage are like sand in my eyes at the beach on a windy day.

  49. avatar
    Northland10 November 20, 2011 at 7:13 am #

    john quoting Kerchner: Adjectives mean something. Barack Obama may be a Citizen of the United States’. But he is not a natural born Citizen of the United States’ and does not meet the constitutional standards as to who can be the President and Commander in Chief of our military:

    Hmm.. Andy Martin is on the ballot in New Hampshire, even though, if recall correctly, his father naturalized after he was born. Does their “2 citizen theory” only apply to specific candidates?

  50. avatar
    Sef November 20, 2011 at 11:04 am #

    It is said that a lawyer, in examining a witness, should never ask a question for which he does not already know the answer. Considering Chairman Cook’s credentials, I think he knew full well what he was dealing with.

  51. avatar
    john November 20, 2011 at 11:24 am #

    The panel was corrupt and were cowards. No one want to hear the worst about their president especially some Democrats. I think Orly’s argument went in one ear and out the other. The panel didn’t even ask any questions. They simply didn’t want to hear it and were cowardly. When Cook asked Orly if any body has settled these issues, Orly had mentioned to the effect the no person or body has been brave enough to tackle this issue. Another person in the audience also mentioned the problem with standing. The panel was no different. They just didn’t want to take the responsibility. The panel knew to they could remove Obama the ballot as there was precident for it. Instead, the panel turned a blind eye and was were corrupt and shameful.

  52. avatar
    BatGuano November 20, 2011 at 12:18 pm #

    Sef: I doubt the MSM has as much understanding of these issues as the people frequenting these blogs, so they probably need to be educated. Does anyone have any good contacts in the media where people could be enlightened?

    i’m a freelance illustrator that works for both regional and national publications but i’ve also had articles and interviews published. my guess is that you’d have a hard time pitching a birther piece at this time ( i tried to pitch an orly interview a couple years back to my local so-cal publication and the idea was not received well ). that being said….. i think as we get closer to the election and the birthers get louder/nuttier there would be interest among the weekly publications for an article. i’d recommend it contain input from a conservative attorney with expertise in constitutional law and a psychologist concerning cognitive dissonance.

  53. avatar
    Daniel November 20, 2011 at 1:21 pm #

    john:
    Clearly the NH Ballot Election Commission is corrupt.

    I’ve got a question for you, John… let’s see if you have the guts to answer it.

    Why are bodies like commissions, courts, executive branch, legislatures, etc. only corrupt when YOU lose?

  54. avatar
    Rickey November 20, 2011 at 1:45 pm #

    john:
    Clearly the NH Ballot Election Commission is corrupt.As Orly pointed out, Obama has an “Identity Problem” is virtually every respect.NH is essentially accepted a candidate on the ballot in which they know “nothing” about beyond a name and $1000 fee.NH also knows damn well they have the authority and duty to remove Obama from the ballot as precident has been established for it as a person who was born in Eygpt was removed from the ballot a couple of years ago.Orly gave a masterful argument but she should have taken another hour to try her evidence to the specific statues.Orly should have brought up the person who was born in Eygpt precident.

    Poor, chronically deluded John.

    Precedent (and please stop spelling it “precident”) is applicable when when the factual and/or legal issues are similar. The Egyptian stated on his application that he was born in Egypt (and please stop spelling it “Eygpt”), so by his own admission he was ineligible. Did Obama submit an application which states that he was born in Kenya? I didn’t think so.

  55. avatar
    squee November 20, 2011 at 1:48 pm #

    NH is essentially accepted a candidate on the ballot in which they know “nothing” about beyond a name and $1000 fee

    Yes, he his virtually “unknown”, except for the fact that his is currently the President of these here United States of America. And before that a US Senator, an Illinois State Senator, a law professor and every micro-second of his life has been dissected and examined over the last X number of years.

    But yeah, other than that? Nothing.

  56. avatar
    GeorgetownJD November 20, 2011 at 1:50 pm #

    Judge Mental: Couldn’t make this stuff up. If we wrote comments like John’s into the script of a spoof satire film about birthers Hollywood would reject it as too far fetched that anyone with a purported strong interest in the subject could be quite so incredibly ignorant.

    Based on identical postings at the P&E it would appear that “john” is another sockpuppet for that Aussie crackerjack researcher of American law (/snark), “MIchaelN”.

  57. avatar
    GeorgetownJD November 20, 2011 at 1:59 pm #

    US Citizen:
    All this does is make me angry.
    Here I’ve worked for 30+ years at an honest trade and treating people with respect, not over-charging them and doing good work.
    I own now a broken down car and have no health coverage.

    But here Orly lives in a $2+ million dollar house and drives nice cars, but never wins cases.
    NH legislators also get good salaries, paid healthcare, expense accounts and yet some couldn’t even pass an IQ test designed for a gold fish.

    You know, I’d feel even worse how I’ve wasted my life and ended up hurt and broke if it wasn’t for my girlfriend, Angelina Jolie.

    All good points, except that the members of the New Hampshire General Court (the state’s term for its bicameral legislature) are paid $200 for a two-year term, no per diem, and no benefits.

    Sorry to hear about Angelina. You would be so good for her.

  58. avatar
    labman57 November 20, 2011 at 2:00 pm #

    Would not be surprised to learn that mental health professionals decide to categorize birtherism as yet another form of OCD.

  59. avatar
    US Citizen November 20, 2011 at 3:03 pm #

    Questions for John and other birthers:

    If this is such an enormous conspiracy involving thousands of people including all members of the house, senate, state of Hawaii, FBI, CIA, judges at every level and even McCain himself who spent millions trying to get elected, why would Obama release poorly forged birth records with so much at stake?

    Wouldn’t Obama have unlimited resources to make a good BC?
    Wouldn’t the state of Hawaii have released a better, more consistent BC if it otherwise meant they themselves would be exposed and prosecuted?
    Wouldn’t releasing an easily spotted forgery jeopardize the entire conspiracy unnecessarily?
    Why would McCain give up his chance at being president?
    He’s already rich. What could Obama possibly bribe McCain with that’s greater than all his own wealth including losing all that money raised for his campaign?
    Finally, if you’re Obama and can fake your own ID, birthplace, SS number and all that, why use a name like Barack Hussein Obama instead of a more widely acceptable name?

    John, do you really believe that most everyone in both parties was somehow bribed and yet not a single one has yet spilled the beans to become an instant hero and celebrity?
    Why bribe someone a dollar to guard Fort Knox?

    And wouldn’t Obama have already rounded up his opposition, put them in FEMA camps and enacted Sharia law by now?
    Why hasn’t Obama already started confiscating all the guns he was touted as wanting to take?
    Why would there even be legal challenges to “ObamaCare” if he already had every politician in his pocket?
    And why would he rely on Soro’s money when richer people like Bill Gates voted for him?
    Have you ever even researched how many people are far richer than Soros that also voted or donated money to Obama?

    I’d love to hear some good answers to these questions.

  60. avatar
    G November 20, 2011 at 3:33 pm #

    Don’t forget 2 best-selling and award winning autobiographies, one which was published back in the mid-ninetees.

    squee: But yeah, other than that? Nothing.

  61. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 20, 2011 at 3:50 pm #

    It is my opinion that John is more incompetent than Dr. Taitz.

    GeorgetownJD: Geez, Louise, you are as incompetent at law as Orly.

  62. avatar
    Keith November 20, 2011 at 4:21 pm #

    US Citizen: If this is such an enormous conspiracy involving thousands of people including all members of the house, senate, state of Hawaii, FBI, CIA, judges at every level and even McCain himself who spent millions trying to get elected, why would Obama release poorly forged birth records with so much at stake?

    Good question. However a better question is: how big does a conspiracy have to get before it becomes not a conspiracy but the true will of the people?

  63. avatar
    john November 20, 2011 at 5:14 pm #

    Congress is complaccent. Every member of Congress knows Obama has problems. They know the answer but they won’t pursue it because of the threat of racism, intense ridicule, and a country wide disruption. McCain didn’t pursue problems with Obama because of racism, ridicule and because of his own problem. The courts too know the answer but again don’t want have the responsibility of it so they hide around issues of standing. Hawaii is very liberal and Obama is their favorite son. Hawaii would never do anything that would paint Obama in a bad light. The FBI and CIA again know the answers but because of racism, ridicule, and disruption, no one has the courage to pursue that matter.

  64. avatar
    Scientist November 20, 2011 at 6:04 pm #

    Tarrant: Vita’s statement to me is the saddest. Despite the fact that Obama meets all the credentials he sets forth for te Republican candidates, AND the fact that Obama’s various qualifying documents are widely available while the Republican candidates have released nothing (nor should they have to, but then again Obama shouldn’t have had to either), he trusts they are eligible without proof, and believes Obama ineligible despite proof

    The Constitution is very clear that you must be 35 years of age to be eligible for President. No one who has watched even 5 minutes of the Republican debates could possibly argue that any of those candidates are over the age of 4.

  65. avatar
    ASK Esq November 20, 2011 at 7:33 pm #

    Northland10: Northland10: Hmm.. Andy Martin is on the ballot in New Hampshire, even though, if recall correctly, his father naturalized after he was born. Does their “2 citizen theory” only apply to specific candidates?

    I think it has been pretty conclusively established that the requirements that birthers demand don’t apply to candidates who have names and/or skin tones that are, well, “really” American.

    I assume my drift is gotten.

  66. avatar
    The Magic M November 21, 2011 at 4:28 am #

    > “It’s the Constitution, sir,” said Dick Marple, a former state representative. “It states we must respect the law of nations.”

    and similar in the comments:

    > wherein the MANDATE commands respect and obedience of the “Law of Nations”

    It’s amazing how people can intentionally (?) misread things that are obvious to anyone even remotely familiar with basic English.

    The Constitution says:

    “The Congress shall have Power […] To define and punish […] Offenses against the Law of Nations”

    That means Congress *can* do that (if it wishes to), not that it *must* do that. Moreover, it has the power to *define* what constitutes an “offense against the law of nations”.
    Doesn’t really sound like “the law of nations must be respected above all else” to me…

  67. avatar
    Nathanael November 21, 2011 at 5:07 am #

    “I know what it is to live in a dictatorship . . . where the whole system is corrupt,” Taitz said. “And that’s what we’re seeing here.”

    Now THAT’s funny. I’m debating some birthers now over at TeaPartyNation, one of whom just replied:

    “I lived under Stalin in eastern Europe. Let me enlighten you, we are at the beginning of marxist transformation.”

    Guess someone’s been imbibing a bit to much Orly.

  68. avatar
    Nathanael November 21, 2011 at 5:13 am #

    I’d love to hear some good answers to these questions.

    Well, then, waddya asking THEM for?

    –Nathanael

  69. avatar
    Keith November 21, 2011 at 6:07 am #

    The Magic M: That means Congress *can* do that (if it wishes to), not that it *must* do that. Moreover, it has the power to *define* what constitutes an “offense against the law of nations”.
    Doesn’t really sound like “the law of nations must be respected above all else” to me…

    You are 100% correct of course, but perhaps slightly missing the numbskull’s point.

    He is saying that the phrase ‘Law of Nations’ in the constitution refers to the de Vattel book with that approximate English name.

  70. avatar
    The Magic M November 21, 2011 at 9:37 am #

    Keith: He is saying that the phrase ‘Law of Nations’ in the constitution refers to the de Vattel book with that approximate English name.

    I know – that’s the icing on the crazy cake here. But regardless whether he means the abstract legal term or the Vattel book, he’s wrong on the basics of his claim, i.e. at the basics of English grammar rules. Maybe now you understand why I used to call these people North Korean agents over at WND. It should be impossible for a native speaker to make such a mistake.

  71. avatar
    James M November 21, 2011 at 9:47 am #

    john:
    Clearly the NH Ballot Election Commission is corrupt.As Orly pointed out, Obama has an “Identity Problem” is virtually every respect.NH is essentially accepted a candidate on the ballot in which they know “nothing” about beyond a name and $1000 fee.NH also knows damn well they have the authority and duty to remove Obama from the ballot as precident has been established for it as a person who was born in Eygpt was removed from the ballot a couple of years ago.Orly gave a masterful argument but she should have taken another hour to try her evidence to the specific statues.Orly should have brought up the person who was born in Eygpt precident.

    You aren’t making your point clearly. For one thing, President Obama was not born in Egypt.

  72. avatar
    Rickey November 21, 2011 at 10:58 am #

    Oh For Goodness Sake is reporting that Orly has received a dressing-down from D.J. Bettencourt, the Republican Majority Leader of the New Hampshire House of Representatives.

    http://ohforgoodnesssake.com/?p=19693

    These parts are priceless:

    “Your outburst was unbecoming of any legitimate political dialogue, never mind one as ridiculous as the continued obsession over President Obama’s birth place.”

    and

    “Please, Dr. Taitz, go away and leave New Hampshire alone.”

  73. avatar
    The Magic M November 21, 2011 at 11:34 am #

    john: NH also knows damn well they have the authority and duty to remove Obama from the ballot as precident has been established for it as a person who was born in Eygpt was removed from the ballot a couple of years ago. Orly gave a masterful argument but she should have taken another hour to try her evidence to the specific statues. Orly should have brought up the person who was born in Eygpt precident.

    What precedent (sp!)?

    My sources say the guys wasn’t “removed from the ballot”:

    “Bates cited an instance in 2007 when an Egyptian-born citizen filed to be included on a New Hampshire primary ballot. When Deputy Secretary of State, David Scanlan, was flipping through Mohammad’s campaign literature, he noticed it said Mohammad was born in Egypt. Scanlan contacted Mohammad to tell him he was ineligible to run for president. “He genuinely sounded surprised and unaware of the requirement that he had to be born in this country,” Scanlan said. “He probably would have ended up on the ballot.””

    (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/nh-birther-bill-backer-i-dont-know-where-obama-was-born.php)

    So again we have birthers twisting the truth, don’t we? And if Orly had really brought this up, it would’ve been another ridiculous EPIC FAIL.

  74. avatar
    The Magic M November 21, 2011 at 11:40 am #

    PS. Also note that even birther bill advocate Bates quotes, through Scanlan, the requirement “that he had to be born in this country”. Nothing about citizen parents. Ouch, another strike-out for the Vattelists…

  75. avatar
    Northland10 November 21, 2011 at 12:29 pm #

    The Magic M: So again we have birthers twisting the truth, don’t we? And if Orly had really brought this up, it would’ve been another ridiculous EPIC FAIL.

    Even if they had “removed” Mohammed, it would be due to the fact he stated he was born in Egypt. Orly, John and the others want Obama removed because they believe, with absolutely no evidence, that Obama was born in Kenya.

    Sorry John, your silly suspicion that the BC is forged would never be enough evidence, especially on a state document. You have to actually have verifiable (sorry Lucas, that means yours is out) evidence that Obama was born elsewhere.

  76. avatar
    Majority Will November 21, 2011 at 1:20 pm #

    Rickey:
    Oh For Goodness Sake is reporting that Orly has received a dressing-down from D.J. Bettencourt, the Republican Majority Leader of the New Hampshire House of Representatives.

    http://ohforgoodnesssake.com/?p=19693

    These parts are priceless:

    “Your outburst was unbecoming of any legitimate political dialogue, never mind one as ridiculous as the continued obsession over President Obama’s birth place.”

    and

    “Please, Dr. Taitz, go away and leave New Hampshire alone.”

    Orly’s reply (from http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/):

    MY RESPONSE TO THE CORRUPT, TREASONOUS RINO REPUBLICAN MAJORITY LEADER OF NH HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, D. J. BETANCOURT

    Posted on | November 21, 2011 | 9 Comments

    Mr. Betancourt, my appearance before the committee was not an outburst, but a testimony with an undeniable proof of Barack Obama using a stolen Social Security number, forged birth certificate, committing elections fraud and treason. Your answer shows that you are another corrupt and dirty politician, who is maliciously disregarding the truth and the Constitution of this nation, who needs to be removed from the position of the Republican majority leader and who should be and will be tried for treason against this nation together with other corrupt politicians who put a complete fraud and a criminal wthout any valid US identification papers in the White House.

    – – –

    Ooh, threaty.

  77. avatar
    Sef November 21, 2011 at 1:25 pm #

    Here’s my translation of the hearing in NH”

    Orly, for almost an hour” “Blaah, blaah, blaah …”
    Chairman Cook: “Do you have any evidence?”
    Orly: “:No”
    Chairman Cook: “What does the law say is required?”
    Answer: “The form was properly filled out and the $1000 was paid””
    Chairman Cook: “Challenge denied!”

  78. avatar
    Joey November 21, 2011 at 2:00 pm #

    The US Constitution does not forbid a person who is not a natural born citizen from RUNNING for President. The Constitution only addresses ASSUMING the office of the President.
    Some states have laws that don’t allow a person who is not a natural born citizen from running for that office. Other states have no such laws.
    In 2008, Roger Calero, who was born in Nicaragua was on the ballot as the Socialist Workers Party candidate in some states and there was a stand in candidate, James Harris on the ballot as the candidate of the Socialist Workers Party in nine states that didn’t allow Calero to be on the ballot.

  79. avatar
    Rickey November 21, 2011 at 2:02 pm #

    Majority Will:

    Ooh, threaty.

    I hope that Bettencourt (Orly can’t even spell his name correctly) reports that threat to the California bar. That might finally force the Bar to take action.

  80. avatar
    Rickey November 21, 2011 at 2:10 pm #

    Joey:
    The US Constitution does not forbid a person who is not a natural born citizen from RUNNING for President. The Constitution only addresses ASSUMING the office of the President.
    Some states have laws that don’t allow a person who is not a natural born citizen from running for that office. Other states have no such laws.
    In 2008, Roger Calero, who was born in Nicaragua was on the ballot as the Socialist Workers Party candidate in some states and there was a stand in candidate, James Harris on the ballot as the candidate of the Socialist Workers Party in nine states that didn’t allow Calero to be on the ballot.

    That’s a good point. There seems to be a general consensus among Constitutional attorneys that California erred year ago when it took Eldridge Cleaver off the ballot because he wasn’t old enough to be President.

    What if a voter casts a write-in vote for an ineligible candidate? Is the vote not counted?

  81. avatar
    jayHG November 21, 2011 at 2:51 pm #

    john: I disagree. I listened to whole hearing. Orly’s evidence was compelling and convincing. While FogBow members might tear apart later, it is unbelieveable that a person hearing Orly explain the evidence would dismiss it has just speculation or suspision. Orly cited persons, government organization, and actual investigation that clearly pointed to fraud.

    Stop embarassing yourself, will ya!!!!!????

  82. avatar
    sfjeff November 21, 2011 at 2:54 pm #

    “Please, Dr. Taitz, go away and leave New Hampshire alone.”

    Now we just need some Republican like Boehner, or even Jeb Bush to make it clear:

    “Please Dr. Taitz, go away and leave the United States alone”

    Karl Rove was the closest so far.

  83. avatar
    jayHG November 21, 2011 at 2:56 pm #

    Rickey: Oh For Goodness Sake is reporting that Orly has received a dressing-down from D.J. Bettencourt, the Republican Majority Leader of the New Hampshire House of Representatives. http://ohforgoodnesssake.com/?p=19693These parts are priceless:“Your outburst was unbecoming of any legitimate political dialogue, never mind one as ridiculous as the continued obsession over President Obama’s birth place.”and “Please, Dr. Taitz, go away and leave New Hampshire alone.”

    Wow!!!!!! All hell’s going to break loose over there (Orly’s web page) and at Free Republic. NH republicans are “in on it” cause “Orly was getting really close to making President Obama resign tomorrow!”

  84. avatar
    Whatever4 November 21, 2011 at 3:01 pm #

    Sef:
    Here’s my translation of the hearing in NH”

    Orly, for almost an hour” “Blaah, blaah, blaah …”
    Chairman Cook: “Do you have any evidence?”
    Orly: “:No”
    Chairman Cook: “What does the law say is required?”
    Answer: “The form was properly filled out and the $1000 was paid””
    Chairman Cook: “Challenge denied!”

    Bingo! Then it ended “WAHHHHHHHHHH”

  85. avatar
    Majority Will November 21, 2011 at 3:11 pm #

    “Orly’s evidence was compelling and convincing.”

    It sure was. Especially the part where Orly was asked if she had evidence and she said no.

    Quite compelling and very convincing.

  86. avatar
    Rickey November 21, 2011 at 3:12 pm #

    I sent Bettencourt an e-mail which strongly urges him to file a complaint about Orly with the California Bar.

  87. avatar
    Majority Will November 21, 2011 at 3:20 pm #

    Listed as humor, a reader’s e-mail posted at Orly’s cesspool:

    FROM A READER EDDY
    Posted on | November 21, 2011

    humor…

    Reply | (redacted name) to me
    10:42 AM (10 minutes ago)

    Dear Lady Liberty,
    At the bottom of your letter to New Hampshire Speaker you could add the “PS I favor the return of public hanging for Treason”.

    – – –

    Ah, the birther sense of humor.

    Then, Orly begs for sympathy and implies she needs money:

    UPDATE
    Posted on | November 21, 2011 | 1 Comment

    Office of the Secretary of State of NH was contacted and request was made for transcript of Friday commission hearing. They are supposed to respond to my supporter in regards to time and price for the transcript. The hearing lasted over an hour, so it might be expensive.

    Petition to William O’Neal, NH Speaker of the House is going out by Fed Ex today.

    Appeal to the Supreme Court is going out upon receipt of the transcript

    This hearing was a marathon. I got a one day notice on Wednesday. I worked with 10 patients on Thursday, then drove home, had dinner with my family, drove to Los Angeles to the airport, flew red eye to Boston/Logan, drove to NH, reviewed the material and docs until 2, then testified to the committee and started on a log trip back: driving to MA, flying to LA, driving to Orange County. It was nearly 48 hour with no rest. On the weekend I was reviewing procedures of the NH Supreme Court and pertinent statutes and precedents. From all the stress and lack of sleep I got a migraine headache that does not go away. I will take it easy today and possibly tomorrow (as much as it is possible with a full schedule of patients).

  88. avatar
    Rickey November 21, 2011 at 4:26 pm #

    Majority Will:

    This hearing was a marathon. I got a one day notice on Wednesday. I worked with 10 patients on Thursday, then drove home, had dinner with my family, drove to Los Angeles to the airport, flew red eye to Boston/Logan, drove to NH,reviewed the material and docs until 2, then testified to the committee and started on a log trip back: driving to MA, flying to LA, driving to Orange County. It was nearly 48 hour with no rest. On the weekend I was reviewing procedures of the NH Supreme Court and pertinent statutes and precedents. From all the stress and lack of sleep I got a migraine headache that does not go away. I will take it easy today and possibly tomorrow (as much as it is possible with a full schedule of patients).

    It was thoughtful or Orly to give her patients evidence for their inevitable malpractice lawsuits. Working on patients while suffering from migraines and sleep deprivation is never good idea.

  89. avatar
    PaulG November 21, 2011 at 4:45 pm #

    Keith: You are 100% correct of course, but perhaps slightly missing the numbskull’s point.

    He is saying that the phrase ‘Law of Nations’ in the constitution refers to the de Vattel book with that approximate English name.

    The obvious rejoinder isto point out that as a matter of fact, “offenses against the Law of Nations” is the title of a chapter in Blackstone. Just more evidence that the constitution is based on Blackstone, not Vattel.

    Anyway that refers to international agreements, and by international agreement, each country gets to determine who is and who isn’t a citizen for themselves. But you can’t use logic with a crazy person.

  90. avatar
    Majority Will November 21, 2011 at 5:03 pm #

    Rickey: It was thoughtful or Orly to give her patients evidence for their inevitable malpractice lawsuits.

    She’s had a few already. Perhaps that’s why she got her law license. It’s like getting a real estate license to buy Yosef’s and her $4,995,000 mansion in Laguna Niguel.

    I sense a pattern here.

  91. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny November 21, 2011 at 5:25 pm #

    Rickey:
    I sent Bettencourt an e-mail which strongly urges him to file a complaint about Orly with the California Bar.

    It won’t help. I have come to conclusion now tha California Bar, and all US judges everywhere will never take action – unless she starts hurting the interests of her clients.

    There is judge Land of course, but the point there is that he gave Orlyanka an Order to Show Cause why she should not be sanctioned when she pursued a case her client had already abandoned.

    A way out would be if Bettencourt added that the representatives who also misbehaved at that meeting have seen their political future threatened by their association with la Taitz. However, I’ve seen reports that they get about 200 dollars a month for being a representative (so it is not really money they need desperately) and some of these nutters have been birfing before they met Orlyanka (that Rappaport fellow for instance).

  92. avatar
    Expelliarmus November 21, 2011 at 5:52 pm #

    PaulG: The obvious rejoinder isto point out that as a matter of fact, “offenses against the Law of Nations” is the title of a chapter in Blackstone.

    Thanks for pointing that out. Here’s a link to that chapter:
    http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/b/blackstone/william/comment/book4.5.html

    To further clarify what the Constitution was referencing, Blackstone says:
    “THE principal offense against the law of nations, animadverted on as such by the municipal laws of England, are of three kinds; 1. Violation of safe-conducts; 2. Infringement of the rights of ambassadors; and, 3. Piracy.”

    Whereas the Constitutional provision as to powers of Congress provides:
    “To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations”

    So it looks to me like the framers of the Constitution were mostly worried about pirates.

  93. avatar
    Majority Will November 21, 2011 at 5:54 pm #

    Majority Will: It’s like getting a real estate license to buy Yosef’s and her $4,995,000 mansion in Laguna Niguel.

    P.S. The theory behind her obtaining a real estate license was so that she could avoid paying an agent commission on the purchase of a mansion and it’s just speculation. It’s also one of the few things which don’t deserve derision.

  94. avatar
    thisoldhippie November 21, 2011 at 5:57 pm #

    jayHG: Stop embarassing yourself, will ya!!!!!????

    What part of, Orly nor any of her minions produced any evidence do these people not understand? Her 85 page packet consisted of rumor and innuendo, “investigations” from something like Lexis Nexis or Accurint that clearly states information can be incorrect, and an attempt to check a SSN on the “self-check” site that now shows a number that is not assigned. (With his SSN all over the internet, don’t you think President Obama got a new one??). She did not have any certified documents showing that the certified copy of the BC – either the “short form” or the “long form” are not true and correct documents. Oh the stupidity.

  95. avatar
    G November 21, 2011 at 6:07 pm #

    Kudos. That *IS* the entire affair in a nutshell.

    Sef: Here’s my translation of the hearing in NH”Orly, for almost an hour” “Blaah, blaah, blaah …”Chairman Cook: “Do you have any evidence?”Orly: “:No”Chairman Cook: “What does the law say is required?”Answer: “The form was properly filled out and the $1000 was paid””Chairman Cook: “Challenge denied!”

  96. avatar
    G November 21, 2011 at 6:12 pm #

    Good for you! I agree that he should.

    I am also glad in his speech that he also had a stern talking to of the obnoxious outbursts by the BIrtheristani amongst his delegation. (“I have spoken to the Representatives who were present and expressed to them my strong desire that they immediately disassociate themselves from you and this folly.”) I hope that he threatens to strip them of any committee positions, etc. if they continue to behave so poorly in public. What an utter disgrace those folks were!

    Rickey: I sent Bettencourt an e-mail which strongly urges him to file a complaint about Orly with the California Bar.

  97. avatar
    G November 21, 2011 at 6:22 pm #

    Indeed. Although it could probably be argued that anyone, who knowingly choses to continue to go do a dentist with such a public demonstration of nearly 4 years of consistently bizarre and seemingly insane behavior, is willfully putting themselves at risk.

    Rickey: It was thoughtful or Orly to give her patients evidence for their inevitable malpractice lawsuits. Working on patients while suffering from migraines and sleep deprivation is never good idea.

  98. avatar
    G November 21, 2011 at 6:25 pm #

    Agreed. Others have dug up her legal history in the past. Other than Birtherism, it seems she pretty much only practiced to defend herself and her family.

    It seems her entire history has dealt with defending her own malpractice incidents, her poor driving record and poor behavior by her children.

    Majority Will: She’s had a few already. Perhaps that’s why she got her law license. It’s like getting a real estate license to buy Yosef’s and her $4,995,000 mansion in Laguna Niguel.I sense a pattern here.

  99. avatar
    G November 21, 2011 at 6:26 pm #

    That was indeed a huge problem during that time period.

    Expelliarmus: So it looks to me like the framers of the Constitution were mostly worried about pirates.

  100. avatar
    Judge Mental November 21, 2011 at 6:30 pm #

    G:
    Indeed.Although it could probably be argued that anyone, who knowingly choses to continue to go do a dentist with such a public demonstration of nearly 4 years of consistently bizarre and seemingly insane behavior, is willfully putting themselves at risk.

    The thought of that lunatic approaching me with a needle in one hand and a whirling drill in another would be enough to put me off candy bars for the rest of my life.

  101. avatar
    PaulG November 21, 2011 at 7:00 pm #

    G:
    That was indeed a huge problem during that time period.

    It’s a good thing they didn’t know about ninjas!

  102. avatar
    Tarrant November 21, 2011 at 7:26 pm #

    Whenever I see birthers claim that the phrase “Law of Nations” must refer to Vattel because it is capitalized, I generally ask them to find for me the book “Aid and Comfort”, as that phrase is referenced in the definition of treason. And if it is a book, does that mean they have to actually give them a copy of the book for it to be considered treason? I mean given birthers are adamant that Obama and everyone else has committwd treason, you’d think they’d want to makesure there’s a firm Constitutional definition of it (which there is) and stick to it fast.

  103. avatar
    Joey November 21, 2011 at 7:42 pm #

    Rickey: That’s a good point. There seems to be a general consensus among Constitutional attorneys that California erred year ago when it took Eldridge Cleaver off the ballot because he wasn’t old enough to be President.

    What if a voter casts a write-in vote for an ineligible candidate? Is the vote not counted?

    And THAT’s a good point as well. Over the years, the courts have been pretty darn consistent about not undoing the electoral will of the voter, particularly on technicalities.
    I am NOT saying that technicalities are unimportant, only that the Courts tend to find them less important that the democratic process of our republic.

  104. avatar
    Majority Will November 21, 2011 at 7:55 pm #

    G:
    That was indeed a huge problem during that time period.

    Piracy is still a huge problem worldwide. It probably began in the same year boats were invented.

  105. avatar
    Rickey November 21, 2011 at 8:01 pm #

    Majority Will: Piracy is still a huge problem worldwide. It probably began in the same year boats were invented.

    Another big issue of that time was the impressment of seamen.

  106. avatar
    G November 21, 2011 at 9:48 pm #

    Yes it was. But to clarify my point, piracy was a big concern at the time for the territorial waters of the Colonies and fledgling United States. It was also a big concern for their economic trading interests with other nations and was even a major driver of several of the earliest US treaties.

    Yes, piracy still exists in a number of places in the world and yes, it has been around as a force as long as there have been boats.

    However, piracy is most certainly NOT the same type nor scope of issue in U.S. territorial waters these days as it was back in those centuries. Not by a mile.

    Majority Will: Piracy is still a huge problem worldwide. It probably began in the same year boats were invented.

  107. avatar
    Majority Will November 21, 2011 at 10:09 pm #

    Earlier today, Orly posted:

    “Petition to William O’Neal, NH Speaker of the House is going out by Fed Ex today.”

    Does she think he’ll be sympathetic?

    “Dear Representatives Accornero, DeLemus and Baldasaro:

    I have just had a meeting with Attorney General Delaney concerning the Ballot Law Commission hearing on November 18. He is concerned over how members of the House conducted themselves during and following the hearing, as well as for the safety of a member of his office who attended the meeting in an official capacity.

    I am requesting that the Chief of Protective Services, Randy Joyner, conduct an investigation of the incident and provide a written report to me. In addition, I have been informed that the Attorney General has requested that Colonel Quinn of the State Police have his office conduct a review of the incident. Please provide both Protective Services and the State Police your full cooperation and candor should they contact you.

    I am deferring any meeting concerning the issues underlying the November 18 hearing or the hearing itself until these reviews are completed.

    Sincerely,
    William L. O’Brien
    Speaker of the House”

    – – –

    Oops.

  108. avatar
    Majority Will November 21, 2011 at 10:21 pm #

    And yes, she got his name wrong (as if facts ever mattered to this medusa).

  109. avatar
    Nathanael November 21, 2011 at 10:30 pm #

    What if a voter casts a write-in vote for an ineligible candidate? Is the vote not counted?

    Since vote counting is a matter of state law, I suspect this varies by state. It was reported that Mickey Mouse received 428 votes in Florida in 2008, so that state, at least, counts ’em all.

    Is Mickey an NBC?

  110. avatar
    Nathanael November 21, 2011 at 10:39 pm #

    Rickey: Another big issue of that time was the impressment of seamen.

    Hence the War of 1812.

  111. avatar
    Nathanael November 21, 2011 at 10:45 pm #

    Oops.

    What “oops”? Orly’s safe back in California, so it’s no skin off her nose. Though she may want to route around NH for the next couple of decades.

    Can someone fill in the details for me? I watched the video over at ohforgoodnesssake, but it cut off after the first couple of “traitor” outbursts. Which member of the attorney general’s staff is in danger, and what was the threat?

    And has anyone drawn the CA bar’s attention to this? At some point even they’ve got to say enough’s enough.

  112. avatar
    Nathanael November 21, 2011 at 10:48 pm #

    Tarrant:
    I mean given birthers are adamant that Obama and everyone else has committwd treason, you’d think they’d want to makesure there’s a firm Constitutional definition of it (which there is) and stick to it fast.

    You mean the way they stick to the constitutional definition of natural-born citizen?

    What does Vattel have to say about treason?

  113. avatar
    Nathanael November 21, 2011 at 11:09 pm #

    Joey: And THAT’s a good point as well. Over the years, the courts have been pretty darn consistent about not undoing the electoral will of the voter, particularly on technicalities.
    I am NOT saying that technicalities are unimportant, only that the Courts tend to find them less important that the democratic process of our republic.

    Which brings up a question.

    In my recent “discussion” with a birther over at Tea Party Nation (just before they banned me 🙂 ; guess the Toilet Paper crowd is expected to toe the birther line), I asked what exactly birthers expected to happen if, through some quixotic twist of fate — or the intervention of Rod Serling — birthers actually got the Supreme Court to declare Obama ineligible?

    Many birthers seem to be operating under the impression that Obama would be frog-marched straight to Leavenworth and that everything he did while in office would somehow be magically expunged from history.

    I realize there’s no precedent to draw on, but my my assumption is that it would still require impeachment and conviction by the Congress to remove Obama, which would simply leave birthers having to deal with President Biden. A grave disappointment, I’m sure.

    Any thoughts?

  114. avatar
    Keith November 21, 2011 at 11:23 pm #

    Nathanael: Since vote counting is a matter of state law, I suspect this varies by state. It was reported that Mickey Mouse received 428 votes in Florida in 2008, so that state, at least, counts em all.

    Is Mickey an NBC?

    Arizona counts them, but puts them in an ‘invalid vote’ category.

    They got tired of counting and reporting votes for Mickey Mouse and Porky Pig in the early ’70s and started requiring that candidates, even write-in candidates, apply in person before the election in order to be counted as valid.

    This doesn’t mean that you can’t vote write-in for anybody you want to, it just means that any prospective write-in candidates must take positive action to indicate that they actually exist before their votes can be counted as legitimate. Mickey Mouse need not apply.

    Disclaimer: this comment is from personal knowledge over 30 years out of date. Arizona has gone generally insane during that time, so it may no longer be correct. But I think it is.

  115. avatar
    G November 22, 2011 at 12:09 am #

    Yes, Biden would become President. The 20th & 25th Amendments pretty much cover the rules for Presidential succession during a term, including situations in which a sitting president is removed from office or no longer able to serve.

    Despite the Birthers fictional fantasies, we had a lawful election here. There is no such thing as an “Usurper” as they try to use that term.

    Their “magic reset button” to erase his term and any actions or laws that went into effect under also doesn’t exist. That is pure fiction.

    Simple as that. Really that pretty much covers it. If you run into delusional fools trying to claim otherwise, then simply put the onus on where it belongs – on THEM to provide evidence of APPLICABLE examples and laws that support their ludicrous fantasy claims.

    Nathanael: Which brings up a question.In my recent “discussion” with a birther over at Tea Party Nation (just before they banned me ; guess the Toilet Paper crowd is expected to toe the birther line), I asked what exactly birthers expected to happen if, through some quixotic twist of fate — or the intervention of Rod Serling — birthers actually got the Supreme Court to declare Obama ineligible?Many birthers seem to be operating under the impression that Obama would be frog-marched straight to Leavenworth and that everything he did while in office would somehow be magically expunged from history.I realize there’s no precedent to draw on, but my my assumption is that it would still require impeachment and conviction by the Congress to remove Obama, which would simply leave birthers having to deal with President Biden. A grave disappointment, I’m sure.Any thoughts?

  116. avatar
    G November 22, 2011 at 12:14 am #

    Bravo to the Speaker of the House for both saying such AND for taking such action.

    It is about time this extremely unprofessional and ugly behavior stops being tolerated and given a free pass. Some of those Birther GOP state reps words after the hearing clearly crossed the line of proper decorum and even came across threatening (especially the statement ““You’d better not show your face in the north country. If you come up, you’d better wear a mask.”)

    Majority Will: Earlier today, Orly posted:“Petition to William O’Neal, NH Speaker of the House is going out by Fed Ex today.”Does she think he’ll be sympathetic?“Dear Representatives Accornero, DeLemus and Baldasaro:I have just had a meeting with Attorney General Delaney concerning the Ballot Law Commission hearing on November 18. He is concerned over how members of the House conducted themselves during and following the hearing, as well as for the safety of a member of his office who attended the meeting in an official capacity.I am requesting that the Chief of Protective Services, Randy Joyner, conduct an investigation of the incident and provide a written report to me. In addition, I have been informed that the Attorney General has requested that Colonel Quinn of the State Police have his office conduct a review of the incident. Please provide both Protective Services and the State Police your full cooperation and candor should they contact you. I am deferring any meeting concerning the issues underlying the November 18 hearing or the hearing itself until these reviews are completed.Sincerely,William L. O’BrienSpeaker of the House”- – -Oops.

  117. avatar
    Rickey November 22, 2011 at 12:38 am #

    G:

    Their “magic reset button” to erase his term and any actions or laws that went into effect under also doesn’t exist.That is pure fiction.

    I have enjoyed pointing out to birthers that if everything Obama has signed into law is invalid, it means that the Bush tax cuts have expired and we will have to get out our checkbooks and ante up.

  118. avatar
    G November 22, 2011 at 1:20 am #

    LOL!

    Rickey: I have enjoyed pointing out to birthers that if everything Obama has signed into law is invalid, it means that the Bush tax cuts have expired and we will have to get out our checkbooks and ante up.

  119. avatar
    Majority Will November 22, 2011 at 7:50 am #

    G:
    Bravo to the Speaker of the House for both saying such AND for taking such action.

    It is about time this extremely unprofessional and ugly behavior stops being tolerated and given a free pass.Some of those Birther GOP state reps words after the hearing clearly crossed the line of proper decorum and even came across threatening (especially the statement ““You’d better not show your face in the north country. If you come up, you’d better wear a mask.”)

    Hogwash Huckster Harry “You’d Better Wear a Mask” Accornero is still at it and posted this 3 hours ago on his Facebook page:

    OBAMA – FRAUD OF THE CENTURY (MUST SEE & GO VIRAL!)

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harry-Accornero-NH-State-Representative-for-District-4-Laconia/103223236405871

    I have a hunch Hogwash Huckster Harry is high on his own hooey.

  120. avatar
    G November 22, 2011 at 9:15 am #

    How sad and embarassingly shameful that people with minds this diseased are actual public officials representing a state… *facepalm*

    Majority Will: Hogwash Huckster Harry “You’d Better Wear a Mask” Accornero is still at it and posted this 3 hours ago on his Facebook page:OBAMA – FRAUD OF THE CENTURY (MUST SEE & GO VIRAL!)https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harry-Accornero-NH-State-Representative-for-District-4-Laconia/103223236405871I have a hunch Hogwash Huckster Harry is high on his own hooey.

  121. avatar
    PaulG November 22, 2011 at 9:18 am #

    Majority Will:
    And yes, she got his name wrong (as if facts ever mattered to this medusa).

    He, Lucas Smith, will be happy to explain that in the dark continent of Moldova nobody cares how their names are spelled. O’Neal, O’Brien, O’Bama, Oh whatever.

  122. avatar
    Sef November 22, 2011 at 11:36 am #

    G:
    That was indeed a huge problem during that time period.

    There was a PBS program about Blackbeard recently, wherein they said that the rise of pirates in the 18th Century was due to the release of sailors from the British navy at the close of Queen Anne’s War in 1713. The sailors no longer had anything to do, so they became pirates. Sort of gives one pause when we are shortly going to have a lot of soldiers who have been in Iraq for quite a while and come home to no jobs. Sounds like people never learn from history.

  123. avatar
    Judge Mental November 22, 2011 at 1:14 pm #

    Though I appreciate it might be seen as a somewhat mercenary attitude I am prepared to admit that I’m not entirely unhappy that piracy is still relatively common. At least 15% of my income these days derives from providing independent consultancy services to shipowners, insurers and flag authorities connected both with the avoidance of pirates and with the resolution of instances in which vessels and/or their cargoes have been appropriated by pirates.

    That being understood I have to agree with earlier inferences that modern piracy is not at the moment a matter of great import around the shores of North America. That is not to say that piracy does not affect Americans, many of whom are involved in several ways, including finance houses and individuals engaged in ownership of vessels plus insurers of vessels and cargoes, and also as taxpayers funding the myriad of US naval vessels who in conjunction with naval vessels of other countries are heavily involved in expensive counter piracy patrolling of the seas in certain areas.

  124. avatar
    Sef November 22, 2011 at 3:33 pm #

    Let’s see if I have this right from a legal perspective. Orly has no admissible evidence, so the Commission checks the law to see if everything is hunky-dory. It is, so the “challenge” was dismissed. There really wasn’t a challenge, but the flying monkeys and Orly cannot comprehend that simple fact.

  125. avatar
    Scientist November 22, 2011 at 5:02 pm #

    Judge Mental: That being understood I have to agree with earlier inferences that modern piracy is not at the moment a matter of great import around the shores of North America.

    I read a book recently, “The Pirates’ Pact”, by Douglas Burgess. He relates the fact that many of the colonial governors in America gave commissions to privateers like Henry Morgan, Edward Teach (Blackbeard) and William Kidd in exchange for fees and a cut of the profits. The privateers were supposed to attack Spanish and French ships, but, when those were not around, they often attacked British ships. This became a source of conflict with the Crown. The pirates range extended into the Indian Ocean, the main site of pirates in our time. They used Madagascar as a base and they frequently attacked British ships heading to India.

  126. avatar
    Obsolete November 22, 2011 at 6:39 pm #

    Nathanael,
    Orly has also demanded a Presidential special election to be held within 90 or 120 days of Obama being frog-marched out of the White House.
    I am not sure where the Constitution allows for such a thing, but as she claims to be a Constitutional attorney, she must know better than me.

  127. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy November 22, 2011 at 7:12 pm #

    john: … The panel didn’t even ask any questions. … When Cook asked Orly…

    You contradicted yourself.

  128. avatar
    Rickey November 22, 2011 at 8:15 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: You contradicted yourself.

    John also misspelled “precedent” again. My guess is that John is a slow learner.

  129. avatar
    Joey November 22, 2011 at 8:37 pm #

    Nathanael: Which brings up a question.

    In my recent “discussion” with a birther over at Tea Party Nation (just before they banned me ; guess the Toilet Paper crowd is expected to toe the birther line), I asked what exactly birthers expected to happen if, through some quixotic twist of fate — or the intervention of Rod Serling — birthers actually got the Supreme Court to declare Obama ineligible?

    Many birthers seem to be operating under the impression that Obama would be frog-marched straight to Leavenworth and that everything he did while in office would somehow be magically expunged from history.

    I realize there’s no precedent to draw on, but my my assumption is that it would still require impeachment and conviction by the Congress to remove Obama, which would simply leave birthers having to deal with President Biden. A grave disappointment, I’m sure.

    Any thoughts?

    My thoughts are that the Constitution is very clear. The 12th Amendment states unequivocably that whoever receives a majority of the votes of the Electoral College “SHALL BE THE PRESIDENT.” The time to stop an ineligible candidate is BEFORE the election. If that method should somehow fail, then the time to stop an ineligible president-elect is at the vote of the Electoral College. If that method should somehow fail, the time to stop an ineligible president-elect is through written objections submitted by at least one Senator and one Representative at the Joint session of Congress convened to count and certify the vote of the electoral college. If that method should somehow fail, the last opportunity to stop an ineligible President is at the swearing in ceremony on Inauguration Day by having no one in an official capacity willing to administer the Oath of Office. Once all the steps above have been taken, whoever received a majority of the votes of the Electoral College IS the President and can be removed from office by infirmity or death, resignation, or implementation of Section 4 of the 25th Amendment: “Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

    Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.”

    Or the President can be removed by a Bill of Impeachment passing in the House of Representatives and a trial and conviction of the President by a two-thirds (67 votes) in the Senate.

  130. avatar
    Nathanael November 22, 2011 at 11:06 pm #

    Joey: My thoughts are that the Constitution is very clear.

    Hey, no fair! You actually read the Constitution! Now that’s just playing dirty.

    –Nathanael

  131. avatar
    Nathanael November 22, 2011 at 11:24 pm #

    Obsolete:
    Orly has also demanded a Presidential special election to be held within 90 or 120 days of Obama being frog-marched out of the White House.
    I am not sure where the Constitution allows for such a thing, but as she claims to be a Constitutional attorney, she must know better than me.

    Does she really? I missed that. But I’m still trying to get past the bit where she calls herself an attorney. And since there’s no established line of presidential succession, who does she recommend as president pro tempore?

    Precedent Taitz! How zat sound, John?

  132. avatar
    Nathanael November 22, 2011 at 11:27 pm #

    G:
    Bravo to the Speaker of the House for both saying such AND for taking such action.

    The letter was certainly refreshing, but as to action … well, I’ll wait until I see something substantive. Mr. Accornero, at least, doesn’t seem to have been reigned in much. Yet.

  133. avatar
    G November 22, 2011 at 11:29 pm #

    Actually, we have quite an extensive established line of presidential succession:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_line_of_succession

    Nathanael: Does she really? I missed that. But I’m still trying to get past the bit where she calls herself an attorney. And since there’s no established line of presidential succession, who does she recommend as president pro tempore?Precedent Taitz! How zat sound, John?

  134. avatar
    G November 22, 2011 at 11:34 pm #

    I share your concerns about whether there is any follow-up and “teeth” to these admonishments as well as doubts as to whether these Birther congress critters are even capable of behaving more responsibly in the future.

    But the mere letter itself is at least a bolder and more encouraging step than we have seen from any other GOP official to date… so I still view it as a significantly good start and step back towards trying to get politicians to be more professional and responsible for their words and deeds.

    Nathanael: The letter was certainly refreshing, but as to action … well, I’ll wait until I see something substantive. Mr. Accornero, at least, doesn’t seem to have been reigned in much. Yet.

  135. avatar
    Keith November 22, 2011 at 11:51 pm #

    G: I share your concerns about whether there is any follow-up and “teeth” to these admonishments

    Surely there is something in the (un)Patriot Act that addresses threats against public officials.

    Isn’t there?

  136. avatar
    Nathanael November 22, 2011 at 11:59 pm #

    The encouraging thing about the Speaker’s letter is that it was swift, public and devoid of the usual weaselly political language. Party discipline is usually handled behind closed doors; public action is only taken following political pressure. And — wow! — he sure didn’t mince words! I about had to chisel the vitriol off my monitor.

    Nevertheless, the longer it drags out, the more likely it’ll all get swept under the rug.

  137. avatar
    Nathanael November 23, 2011 at 12:01 am #

    G:
    But the mere letter itself is at least a bolder and more encouraging step…

    Agreed. The Speaker’s letter was swift, public and devoid of the usual weaselly political language. Party discipline is usually handled behind closed doors; public action is only taken following political pressure. And — wow! — he sure didn’t mince words! I about had to chisel the vitriol off my monitor.

    Nevertheless, the longer it drags out, the more likely it’ll all get swept under the rug.

  138. avatar
    Nathanael November 23, 2011 at 12:02 am #

    Sorry for the double post. Sometimes my session seems to hang after submitting and I get impatient.

  139. avatar
    Nathanael November 23, 2011 at 12:03 am #

    G:
    Actually, we have quite an extensive established line of presidential succession:

    My bad. I meant that sarcastically. You and I know it but — shh! — don’t tell Orly.

  140. avatar
    G November 23, 2011 at 1:23 am #

    On a related note to the issues and dangers of paranoia steeped in anti-government fears and bigotry, there is an interesting article out about the experiences of a former FBI informant that spent years immersed in the dark parts of such subculture in America:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/11/20/my-life-as-white-supremacist.html

    I recommend the article to you to read, but I’ll share just a few of the tidbits I found particularly interesting:

    This one particularly sums up my concerns in a nutshell:

    “These people are just plain crazy,” Matthews says. “If they don’t like you, they [would] take you out to have you shot. They don’t care. These people think that if they overthrew the government they’d make a better world. Their world would be a total nightmare.”

    I found this amusing anecdote to demonstrate just how nutty some of these crazies are:

    Through Posey, Matthews met—and monitored—a who’s who of the militia movement. One of Posey’s cohorts in Arizona, for instance, planned to attack IRS agents with a homemade mortar gun. For months, Matthews traveled the country with this man, sharing motel rooms with him and networking with other right-wing extremists: “I’m out driving around with explosives in my truck, sleeping at nighttime with a .45 in my pillow because this guy I’m with is a total wacko,” Matthews says. “He thought that all the missing kids in the United States were being abducted by aliens, and that aliens were putting them in big pots and eating ’em.”

    I chose this one because it highlights the dangers of religious zealotry mixing with crazy:

    By the spring of 1993, Posey seemed to believe that, once again, the revolution was at hand. Federal agents and religious separatists were in a standoff at a compound in Waco, Texas. Posey began having dreams, he told Matthews at the time, that God was directing him to lead a movement to overthrow the U.S. government. He revived his plan to rob the Browns Ferry armory in Alabama, and simultaneously ramped up a plot to take out gas and power lines nearby. For his part, Matthews was increasingly eager to intervene, although he knew that as an informant there was little he could do.

    I found this to be particulary revealing… as it shows that there are those that are merely sympathetic to some extremist positions and causes yet are still (thankfully) aware that certain ideas and actions are crossing a line… It is this line that separates those that can still be reached and brought back into society and those that are merely a ticking time bomb, waiting to go off:

    In some ways, he recalls some sympathy for Posey’s hatred of government; Ruby Ridge and Waco had angered Matthews; they had heightened his fears of growing federal power. But Matthews didn’t buy any of the extremists’ New World Order nonsense. And he certainly didn’t think the answer was killing police officers or FBI agents.

    I’ll just share one last excerpt. This was just an interesting tidbit about the whole Timothy McVeigh situation I wasn’t aware of before:

    Trentadue believed that the FBI had confused Kenney for a member of a gang of white supremacist bank robbers called the Aryan Republican Army; though for years the FBI has claimed that McVeigh largely acted alone, Trentadue has uncovered evidence allegedly linking him to the ARA and the group to the bombing.

  141. avatar
    Judge Mental November 23, 2011 at 6:05 am #

    Scientist: I read a book recently, “The Pirates’ Pact”, by Douglas Burgess.He relates the fact that many of the colonial governors in America gave commissions to privateers like Henry Morgan, Edward Teach (Blackbeard) and William Kidd in exchange for fees and a cut of the profits.The privateers were supposed to attack Spanish and French ships, but, when those were not around, they often attacked British ships.This became a source of conflict with the Crown.The pirates range extended into the Indian Ocean, the main site of pirates in our time.They used Madagascar as a base and they frequently attacked British ships heading to India.

    Yes indeed Scientist…..and it will probably come as no surprise to you that even today in the horn of Africa and certain areas of South East Asia there is no shortage of wheeling/dealing or of nod and a wink arrangements made with selected pirates by unelected people who would like to think of themselves as effectively being unofficial ‘Governors’ of the regions they inhabit.

  142. avatar
    Scientist November 23, 2011 at 6:45 am #

    Judge Mental: Yes indeed Scientist…..and it will probably come as no surprise to you that even today in the horn of Africa and certain areas of South East Asia there is no shortage of wheeling/dealing or of nod and a wink arrangements made with selected pirates by unelected people who would like to think of themselves as effectively being unofficial Governors’ of the regions they inhabit.

    As Captain Renault said in “Casablanca”: “I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here.”

  143. avatar
    Scientist November 23, 2011 at 7:01 am #

    Joey: If that method should somehow fail, the last opportunity to stop an ineligible President is at the swearing in ceremony on Inauguration Day by having no one in an official capacity willing to administer the Oath of Office.

    Joey: I agree with everything you wrote, except for this sentence. I don’t believe the oath has to be administered by anyone. The Constitution merely requires the President to say the words. Once Congress approves the Electoral College votes, that person becomes President on the appointed day, barring death or disability under the 25th Amendment.

    Regarding the 25th, the birthers are really stretching to argue that ineligibility is covered under “disability”. The amendment was put in after Kennedy’s assassination to cover a situation where a President might be alive, but in a coma. It clearly means a physical or mental disability, not something related to “Who’s your Daddy.” It also makes very clear that the arbiiter who decides such cases is Congress, not the courts, and certainly not self-appointed enforcers like Orly.

  144. avatar
    Keith November 23, 2011 at 7:34 am #

    Scientist: Regarding the 25th, the birthers are really stretching to argue that ineligibility is covered under “disability”. The amendment was put in after Kennedy’s assassination to cover a situation where a President might be alive, but in a coma.

    Yes, it was after JFK was killed, but it was not in response to that killing. The timing is accurate, but not the motivation. It was actually in response to Eisenhower’s heart attack, intestinal blockage, and stroke he suffered during his Presidency.

    The problem of vacancy in the Vice Presidency due to succession to President was likewise well known and in need of a solution well before Kennedy’s assassination.

    Here


    President Dwight Eisenhower’s 1955 heart attack and subsequent health problems put the question of presidential disability and succession back in the minds of many, including two Senators who eventually got those questions answered: Senators Estes Kefauver (top right) of Tennessee and Birch Bayh (middle right) of Indiana.

    The inauguration of John Kennedy on January 20, 1961 moved the question of presidential succession and disability to the back burner once again – but it shouldn’t have. At only 43 years old, Kennedy was seen as young, vibrant and vigorous – hardly a candidate to become disabled in office. Decades later however, Kennedy’s medical history would reveal that the need for a comprehensive succession law was at least as much needed for Kennedy as it had been for his predecessor.

    By the summer of 1963, it appeared as though at long last the issue of presidential disability would be addressed. But as had happened so many times before, fate would intervene. On August 8, 1963, Kefauver – the champion of the idea for the previous five years – suffered a massive heart attack on the Senate floor, dying two days later. Kefauver’s death in essence killed the effort for the time being, and nearly killed the Senate subcommittee on Constitutional Amendments.

    Upon Estes Kefauver’s death in 1963, Bayh approached Judiciary Committee chair James Eastland of Mississippi about succeeding Kefauver as chairman of the Senate’s subcommittee on Constitutional Amendments.

    Much to Bayh’s surprise, Eastland gave him the chair in an effort to groom him, and Bayh responded by resurrecting a committee that had been practically left for dead.

    Bayh’s efforts took on new significance quickly following the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963. New President Lyndon Johnson had suffered a near-fatal heart attack in 1955, and the two men next in line to succeed him under the Presidential Succession Act of 1947 – House Speaker John McCormack and Senate President pro tempore Carl Hayden – were 71 and 86 years old, respectively. It didn’t exactly instill a lot of confidence in the nation’s leadership in an age where a catastrophic nuclear attack was seen as more likely than not. After seeing Senate Joint Resolution 35 die with Kefauver, Bayh submitted his own bill (Senate Joint Resolution 139). It was similar in many ways to Kefauver’s bill and a hybrid of Kefauver’s plan and the Eisenhower-Nixon Agreement, but was seen as too constrictive and failed to pass the 88th Congress.

    Sheilding the President from the Constitution: Disability and the 25th Amendment

    Eisenhower’s Heart Attack (and its effect on Wall Street)

  145. avatar
    Keith November 23, 2011 at 7:36 am #

    Sorry, messed up the markup, I guess.

    The quotation in the above post is from History of the 25th Amendment

  146. avatar
    The Magic M November 23, 2011 at 7:41 am #

    Scientist: I don’t believe the oath has to be administered by anyone.

    As far as I understand it, the majority of Constitutional scholars believes there is no absolute requirement for the Oath of Office to be sworn for presidential power to transfer to the elected candidate. While the Constitution says “shall”, it contains no provision regarding failure to do so, especially since it states whoever receives a majority of the votes of the Electoral College “shall be President” and does not say “unless he doesn’t swear the oath”.

    The do-over of Obama’s botched ceremony was, so I read, done “out of abundance of caution” which, I believe, means “so we don’t have to waste time with the idiots going to SCOTUS claiming something’s amiss” and not “because we believe it might have actual consequences otherwise”.

    Not that that stops cranks from seeing it otherwise, of course.

  147. avatar
    G November 23, 2011 at 7:41 am #

    Good info, thanks.

    I’ve enjoyed reading both this thread of conversation and historical information as well as the ongoing discussion and information here on the causes and impacts of piracy, both historical and modern.

    That is one of the things I love about this site. Sometimes, we may get a bit O/T, but compared to many other places, those O/T journeys are usually well worth the trip and quite interensting and informative…and rarely seem to “derail” the on-topic conversations at all. Heck, sometimes it all comes back full circle and allows for better reflection (or even linkage) into the main topic in the first place!

    Keith: Sorry, messed up the markup, I guess.The quotation in the above post is from History of the 25th Amendment

  148. avatar
    Scientist November 23, 2011 at 8:24 am #

    Keith: Yes, it was after JFK was killed, but it was not in response to that killing. The timing is accurate, but not the motivation. It was actually in response to Eisenhower’s heart attack, intestinal blockage, and stroke he suffered during his Presidency

    That’s very interesting, Keith. Thanks. Of course Eisenhower wasn’t the first President to have suffered disability in office. Garfield lingered for over 2 months after being shot, enduring several botched medical procedures, and Wilson was almost totally incapacitated after his stroke in 1919, and his wife basically ran things. Perhaps such disabilitiies were less serious in the pre-nuclear days.

  149. avatar
    Joey November 23, 2011 at 12:32 pm #

    Scientist: Joey:I agree with everything you wrote, except for this sentence.I don’t believe the oath has to be administered by anyone.The Constitution merely requires the President to say the words.Once Congress approves the Electoral College votes, that person becomes President on the appointed day, barring death or disability under the 25th Amendment.

    Regarding the 25th, the birthers are really stretching to argue that ineligibility is covered under “disability”.The amendment was put in after Kennedy’s assassination to cover a situation where a President might be alive, but in a coma.It clearly means a physical or mental disability, not something related to “Who’s your Daddy.”It also makes very clear that the arbiiter who decides such cases is Congress, not the courts, and certainly not self-appointed enforcers like Orly.

    You’re technically right, Scientist.
    I was thinking of the political implications for any president of not being able to find a respected governmental official who would be willing to administer the Oath. Having the Chief Justice do it involves all three branches of government in the process of endorsing the president since Congress counts and certifies the Electors’ votes. If well known governmental officials go public with refusing to administer the Oath ceremonially, it makes the president look like a “USURPER!!!” 😉

  150. avatar
    G November 23, 2011 at 1:15 pm #

    Those were examples that came to my mind as well. The early history of our nation has been full of examples where a President had bouts of concerning illness or injury or assassination / assassination attempts to deal with.

    In many ways, it is quite surprising that this issue wasn’t *formally* addressed sooner. I’m sure it definitely a topic of discussion during some of those periods of concern, but really, especially considering that history or risk, it is quite an oversight to not have had a formal, official policy put in place to deal with periods of incapacitation earlier in our nations history that how things turned out.

    Scientist: Garfield lingered for over 2 months after being shot, enduring several botched medical procedures, and Wilson was almost totally incapacitated after his stroke in 1919, and his wife basically ran things

  151. avatar
    Daniel November 23, 2011 at 2:52 pm #

    G: In many ways, it is quite surprising that this issue wasn’t *formally* addressed sooner.

    I think one of the things we often forget is that the US is really the “NKOTB” politically speaking. We’ve only been around a couple hundred years, which may seem like a long time, but when compared to countries that have existed for a few thousand years it kind of gives you a perspective. I’ve been to houses in Germany where the same family has owned the same physical house they live in, for twice as long as the US has existed.

    IN that context, we’re really still in the “shaking out” phase. We’re still figuring out how to make the “rules” work. That we don’t have policies in place to cover every instance of every detail really isn’t that surprising to me.

  152. avatar
    Jamese777 November 23, 2011 at 3:52 pm #

    Daniel: I think one of the things we often forget is that the US is really the “NKOTB” politically speaking. We’ve only been around a couple hundred years, which may seem like a long time, but when compared to countries that have existed for a few thousand years it kind of gives you a perspective. I’ve been to houses in Germany where the same family has owned the same physical house they live in, for twice as long as the US has existed.

    IN that context, we’re really still in the “shaking out” phase. We’re still figuring out how to make the “rules” work. That we don’t have policies in place to cover every instance of every detail really isn’t that surprising to me.

    That’s a very good point Daniel. However just because something is old doesn’t make it necessarily better. There are some “old world” governmental traditions that are dysfunctional for the nations that have practiced them traditionally. Japan’s emperor and what happened in World War II is a good example.
    General Douglas MacArthur as Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers occupied Japan after their defeat and he basically wrote Japan’s consitution with the help of American constitutional experts. That document has been in place ever since. The Constitution wasn’t imposed on Japan though, it was approved by the Diet (Legislature).

  153. avatar
    Daniel November 23, 2011 at 4:03 pm #

    Jamese777: That’s a very good point Daniel. However just because something is old doesn’t make it necessarily better.

    Please don’t make the mistake of thinking I was commenting on quality. The point I was attempting to make was simply that we, the US, are new, and haven’t had a chance to work out all the details of being a country.

    It’s like when a new company forms to produce and sell a product, They may have a better product than all the old companies, but chances are there’s still some bugs in the assembly line to work out.

  154. avatar
    G November 23, 2011 at 4:48 pm #

    Good points and analogies.

    I can fully appreciate our nation still figuring things out and working out the kinks (particularly in light of an ever-rapidly dramatically changing world and technological innovations that could not have been forseen).

    That being said, I would still expect that when *faced* with a new important issue (at least after several times), that our government would use that “awareness” to focus on the potential problem and address it at that time. (naive wishful thinking, I know… 😉 )

    I guess my point is that there were numerous occasions within the 1st 150 years of our nation that should have merited this issue being raised to the level of trying to address it at that time… Just saying.

    Daniel: Please don’t make the mistake of thinking I was commenting on quality. The point I was attempting to make was simply that we, the US, are new, and haven’t had a chance to work out all the details of being a country. It’s like when a new company forms to produce and sell a product, They may have a better product than all the old companies, but chances are there’s still some bugs in the assembly line to work out.

  155. avatar
    Jamese777 November 23, 2011 at 5:10 pm #

    Daniel: Please don’t make the mistake of thinking I was commenting on quality. The point I was attempting to make was simply that we, the US, are new, and haven’t had a chance to work out all the details of being a country.

    It’s like when a new company forms to produce and sell a product, They may have a better product than all the old companies, but chances are there’s still some bugs in the assembly line to work out.

    Yeah, I got your point and its a good one. I’m amazed that we’ve only had to add 27 amendments in 223 years!
    My favorite constitution story is that the 27th Amendment was proposed by James Madison and submitted to the states for ratification in 1789. It was ratified 203 years later in 1992!

  156. avatar
    Majority Will November 23, 2011 at 10:05 pm #

    This is how Orly handled one 92 year old dental patient:

    08/31/11 Little Shop of Horrors

    by joninoc at Citysearch

    Found what must have been the inspiration for Steve Martin’s dentist character in the movie. Waited 45-50″ with our 92 year old father to have his teeth cleaned. When told it would be at least 30″ longer, we asked if it would be better if we rescheduled. The receptionist said it probably would. Dr. Taizt then came out and said that she could clean his teeth. She evidently was filling in as the appointment was with Dr. Tran. She seem irritated and was very gruff.

    Approximately 5-10 minutes later the receptionist said you can get your father now. We took him his walker and noticed when we got back to the waiting room that his mouth was filled with blood. We pointed it out and asked if someone could rinse his mouth. The receptionist took us to a nearby room and rinsed it.

    In rating Dr. Taitz, the one star I gave her was for speed. Fastest cleaning I have ever heard of. Otherwise she deserves zero stars.

    (source: http://orangecounty.citysearch.com/profile/624644720/rcho_sta_marg_ca/taitz_orly_dds.html#profileTab-reviews)

    Rickey: It was thoughtful or Orly to give her patients evidence for their inevitable malpractice lawsuits. Working on patients while suffering from migraines and sleep deprivation is never good idea.

  157. avatar
    Sef November 23, 2011 at 10:16 pm #

    Majority Will:
    This is how Orly handled one 92 year old dental patient:

    08/31/11 Little Shop of Horrors

    by joninoc at Citysearch

    Found what must have been the inspiration for Steve Martin’s dentist character in the movie. Waited 45-50‘ with our 92 year old father to have his teeth cleaned. When told it would be at least 30‘ longer, we asked if it would be better if we rescheduled. The receptionist said it probably would. Dr. Taizt then came out and said that she could clean his teeth. She evidently was filling in as the appointment was with Dr. Tran. She seem irritated and was very gruff.

    Approximately 5-10 minutes later the receptionist said you can get your father now. We took him his walker and noticed when we got back to the waiting room that his mouth was filled with blood. We pointed it out and asked if someone could rinse his mouth. The receptionist took us to a nearby room and rinsed it.

    In rating Dr. Taitz, the one star I gave her was for speed. Fastest cleaning I have ever heard of. Otherwise she deserves zero stars.

    (source: http://orangecounty.citysearch.com/profile/624644720/rcho_sta_marg_ca/taitz_orly_dds.html#profileTab-reviews)

    Is it standard practice in CA for a dentist to do the cleaning instead of a hygienist?

  158. avatar
    The Magic M November 24, 2011 at 4:43 am #

    Daniel: I’ve been to houses in Germany where the same family has owned the same physical house they live in, for twice as long as the US has existed.

    OTOH the current German Constitution is pretty young (1949) and was created with the additional challenge of trying to do better than the previous one which didn’t prevent the Nazis from taking over.
    Apart from the obvious changes required by reunification in 1990, it has seen several, sometimes substantial, changes in the past two decades, mostly abolishing some general freedoms that were created specifically with the Third Reich in mind (such as a very broad grant of political asylum which was limited several times in the ’90s).

    Not only has the US Constitution been changed less often, but also less in its core elements. Subtract “technical” amendments (such as 23rd, 27th) and “zero sum” amendments (18th/21st) and you end up with even less substantial changes.

  159. avatar
    Daniel November 24, 2011 at 3:13 pm #

    The Magic M: OTOH the current German Constitution is pretty young (1949)

    Yes this is true. I’d go so far as to say that any country that loses a major war can expect to get a new Constitution as a consolation prize lol

  160. avatar
    G November 25, 2011 at 8:54 am #

    LOL!

    Daniel: Yes this is true. I’d go so far as to say that any country that loses a major war can expect to get a new Constitution as a consolation prize lol

  161. avatar
    Arthur November 29, 2011 at 3:30 am #

    Well, I can’t get to sleep, so . . . I looked up the name of one of the guys who, in support of Orly, testified before the New Hampshire Ballot Law Commission. His name is Dick Marples, small business man, libertarian, and former NH legislator who’s against vaccines, seat belt laws, and regulating raw milk sales. Back in 2008 he wrote an opinion piece for the Concord Monitor arguing that the Constitution does not allow women to be president. Mr. Marples writes,

    “Today’s feminists believe the election process is an evolutionary process, legalized by common practice and that someday a woman will be president. They are convinced that since women have run for the office, the male-gendered presidential office has been neutered. Not so. They will be challenged, and a Supreme Court ruling on the language will be necessary. At the very least a constitutional amendment to change the language will be required.”

    Of course, Marples disregards the last ninety years of American politics in which women have successfully fun for office, even in the face of seemingly sexist language that would appear to exclude them. As reported at “The U.S. Constitution Online,”

    “It should come as no surprise to anyone even vaguely familiar with history that the Framers never would have thought that a woman might one day be elected President. They didn’t even think women needed to vote. The use of the masculine pronouns, then, should also be no surprise. English, however, lacks a gender-neutral pronoun, and this is fortunate for women and the Constitution. It is fortunate for women because it means that there is little doubt they could be President. It is fortunate for the Constitution, because it avoids needing to be amended just to correct this problem.

    In the end, the question has really already been answered for us. Article 1, Sections 2 and 3 refer to both Representatives and Senators with the masculine pronoun, and there is no effort to keep women out of the Congress because of this fact. The precedent is set, and women are free to run for, and someday win, the Presidency.”

  162. avatar
    G November 29, 2011 at 9:38 am #

    Gee, what a surprise…another regressive that wants to set civilizatin back a few centuries… Heck, at this point, it wouldn’t surprise me to see some nut come out and advocate that we all go back to living in caves…

    Arthur: Well, I can’t get to sleep, so . . . I looked up the name of one of the guys who, in support of Orly, testified before the New Hampshire Ballot Law Commission. His name is Dick Marples, small business man, libertarian, and former NH legislator who’s against vaccines, seat belt laws, and regulating raw milk sales. Back in 2008 he wrote an opinion piece for the Concord Monitor arguing that the Constitution does not allow women to be president. Mr. Marples writes,

  163. avatar
    James M November 29, 2011 at 9:59 am #

    G:
    Gee, what a surprise…another regressive that wants to set civilizatin back a few centuries…Heck, at this point, it wouldn’t surprise me to see some nut come out and advocate that we all go back to living in caves…

    I’m not convinced that we ever “lived in caves” so much, but it occurs to me that living in forests might not have been so horrible.

  164. avatar
    Rickey November 29, 2011 at 10:06 am #

    Arthur:
    Well, I can’t get to sleep, so . . . I looked up the name of one of the guys who, in support of Orly, testified before the New Hampshire Ballot Law Commission. His name is Dick Marples, small business man, libertarian, and former NH legislator who’s against vaccines, seat belt laws, and regulating raw milk sales. Back in 2008 he wrote an opinion piece for the Concord Monitor arguing that the Constitution does not allow women to be president.

    Nice research, Arthur!

    There is, unfortunately, evidence that the anti-vaccine movement is growing.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45462083/ns/health-childrens_health/#.TtTzgVaAGSo