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Where’s the expert certificate?

Papa, Polland, Vogt, Irey, Zebest and a long list of other Internet desk jockeys have claimed that the image of President Obama’s  long form Hawaiian Certificate of Live Birth of a forgery. Let me ask you two questions,. Have any of these people:

  • Testified in court as an expert in document fraud or document forensics?1
  • Been accredited by any of the national professional associations for document examiners?
  • Taught document fraud detection and  forensics at a recognized institution of higher learning?
  • Earned their living regularly providing document fraud detection services?

The obvious answer is “no.”

So given that fact, why has no one employed someone qualified by the criteria I listed ever said that the long form PDF is a fake and published their report? If a credentialed document examiner concluded the form was a fraud, it would be real evidence that could be presented in court. It would be huge. It would all of Obots scrambling for cover. So why has it not been done?2


1Mr. Papa testified in Atlanta, but Judge Malihi stated in his ruling that he was not “qualified.”

2WorldNetDaily actually hired three credentialed experts, but never published their reports. One of them, Zatkovich, published the report himself, saying no proof of fraud. WorldNetDaily writer Aaron Klein stated that all three said basically the same thing.

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197 Responses to Where’s the expert certificate?

  1. avatar
    katahdin June 14, 2012 at 9:06 pm #

    Birthers are beset by a Catch-22: if they did consult a genuine expert on document authentication, that expert would invariably refuse to reach to conclusion that they long for; therefore they must rely on internet “experts” to prove their case.

  2. avatar
    US Citizen June 14, 2012 at 9:19 pm #

    So when they did consult the pros, they were told no forgery took place.

    Birthers are always whining that they just want the truth, then when they find it, they bury it or invent their own.
    Confirmation bias trying to pass as journalism.

    Lovely really- they edit granny’s tape, make fake Kenyan birth certificates and photoshop pics of Obama with(out) his grandparents.
    If they’re so right about everything, why manufacturer lies?

  3. avatar
    JPotter June 14, 2012 at 9:27 pm #

    “why has no one employed someone qualified by the criteria I listed ever said that the long form PDF is a fake and published their report?”

    Because knowledgeable, expert people reach knowledgeable, expert conclusions. They know the limits of knowing. Birthers skirt those limits and begin with not just bias, but a religiously-held, faith-based, white-knuckle-deathgripped conclusion in mind.

    Taking that conclusion in mind, and starting at the LFBC, I conclude, “You can’t get there from here.”

  4. avatar
    Scientist June 14, 2012 at 9:59 pm #

    I don’t think that any analysis,of a secondary document; i.e., the pdf, could ever be definitive, regardless of the expertise of the analyst. It would be like an art expert examining a photograph of the painting at issue, rather than the actual painting. Quite useless. So, actually, I don’t think any statement based on the pdf would be “huge”.

    The statements of Zebest and the CCP that they could not reproduce some effects in the pdf are worthless, since they do not know the scanner settings and other parameters used to generate the pdf. It would be the equivalent of my trying to reproduce a study in the scientific literature using different cells, growth factors and culture conditions from the original. It would be riidiculous for me to claim fraud if I got a different result.

  5. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 14, 2012 at 10:26 pm #

    “You can’t get there from here.”

    But I’m looking for the Same Old Place!

  6. avatar
    Majority Will June 14, 2012 at 10:37 pm #

    Thomas Brown: But I’m looking for the Same Old Place!

    “Oh, you must mean the old Same Place, Sonny. It’s right out back. Here’s the key.” (key drop)

  7. avatar
    JPotter June 14, 2012 at 10:38 pm #

    Thomas Brown: But I’m looking for the Same Old Place!

    A faith-based bridge to nowhere. 😉

  8. avatar
    john June 14, 2012 at 10:39 pm #

    The key word is “image” not the actual document. Your post is misplaced and your questions irrelevent. All the individuals you cite are certainly qualified in determining the validity of the BC image. As for real document….It is supposely locked up tighter than Fort Knox in Hawaii’s DOH where no one can see it and where we apparently have a very slick worded verification that the BC matches what was released by Obama (It has never been deemed legally valid.) At this point with suspicions that Arpiao’s teams has found with Hawaii DOH, only the aged microfilm of Obama’s BC will be enough to convince he was born in Hawaii.

  9. avatar
    Paul June 14, 2012 at 10:42 pm #

    katahdin:
    Birthers are beset by a Catch-22: if they did consult a genuine expert on document authentication, that expert would invariably refuse to reach to conclusion that they long for; therefore they must rely on internet “experts” to prove their case.

    Exactly. Any reputable “expert” would immediately say “There’s NO WAY I can determine whether the actual document is a forgery by inspecting a web-posted IMAGE of the document.”

    It’s not his birth certificate. IT’S AN IMAGE OF HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE. Whether or not the IMAGE has been manipulated says NOTHING about the document itself.

  10. avatar
    y_p_w June 14, 2012 at 10:48 pm #

    Scientist: The statements of Zebest and the CCP that they could not reproduce some effects in the pdf are worthless, since they do not know the scanner settings and other parameters used to generate the pdf. It would be the equivalent of my trying to reproduce a study in the scientific literature using different cells, growth factors and culture conditions from the original. It would be riidiculous for me to claim fraud if I got a different result.

    There are some specific things that are one in a million or even one in a billion. There’s never been another naturally derived penicillium mold that produced effective penicillin has never been reproduced naturally after the first fortunate case.

    You’re certainly correct that just because they can’t reproduce a similar PDF that that isn’t definitive. At the very least I would have thought a competent group would have at least noticed that the PDF was created on a Mac using OSX specific PDF tools.

  11. avatar
    MN-Skeptic June 14, 2012 at 11:31 pm #

    Well, it’s obvious. Just like Obama and his handlers have threatened, coerced, or bribed every judge who’s dealt with the eligibility issue, they must have compiled a list of all the document authenticators and likewise threatened, coerced, or bribed them. That’s why, even if the experts say the document is not a fake, you just can’t trust them.

    🙂

  12. avatar
    JD Reed June 14, 2012 at 11:50 pm #

    US Citizen: So when they did consult the pros, they were told no forgery took place. Birthers are always whining that they just want the truth, then when they find it, they bury it or invent their own.Confirmation bias trying to pass as journalism. Lovely really- they edit granny’s tape, make fake Kenyan birth certificates and photoshop pics of Obama with(out) his grandparents.If they’re so right about everything, why manufacturer lies?

    Superb!

  13. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 15, 2012 at 12:14 am #

    Scientist: It would be like an art expert examining a photograph of the painting at issue, rather than the actual painting. Quite useless.

    Exactly!!

  14. avatar
    Lupin June 15, 2012 at 3:04 am #

    Analyzing a pdf, jpg or tiff scan of a document is completely pointless with respect to the authenticity of the document itself.

    Honestly, I have never heard of such a thing.

  15. avatar
    The Magic M June 15, 2012 at 5:23 am #

    Scientist: I don’t think that any analysis,of a secondary document; i.e., the pdf, could ever be definitive, regardless of the expertise of the analyst.

    Which is why birthers rely on pseudo-experts. They simply cannot handle an answer that boils down to “there is no way of knowing”. If they could, they would not be conspiracy believers. The inability to cope with impossibilities (knowing everything, controlling everything) is what makes one a conspiracy believer in the first place.

  16. avatar
    Scientist June 15, 2012 at 6:31 am #

    y_p_w: At the very least I would have thought a competent group would have at least noticed that the PDF was created on a Mac using OSX specific PDF tools.

    Yes, and if I tried to isolate a penicillin-secreting fungus starting from a yeast culture, it would be quite absurd for me to scream, “Fleming is a fraud!” when I failed.

  17. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 15, 2012 at 7:26 am #

    I reject your comment. If the “image” is irrelevant then why are there dozens of articles on WorldNetDaily impugning the image, why are there dozens of web sites and videos on it and why is it the CENTRAL ELEMENT on Sheriff Arpaio’s claims of probable cause for fraud? You’re simply ignoring the birther landscape.

    None of the individuals I cite are qualified in what they claim and none would be accepted in court. Essentially birthers hinge a major part of their claims on junk science practiced by unqualified amateurs.

    And please do repeat “birthers” and “convinced” in the same sentence in the context of Obama’s eligibility. Such a thing is an theoretical impossibility. Birthers live to deny; they are never convinced.

    john: The key word is “image” not the actual document. Your post is misplaced and your questions irrelevent (sic). All the individuals you cite are certainly qualified in determining the validity of the BC image. As for real document….It is supposely (sic) locked up tighter than Fort Knox in Hawaii’s DOH where no one can see it and where we apparently have a very slick worded verification that the BC matches what was released by Obama (It has never been deemed legally valid.) At this point with suspicions that Arpiao’s (sic) teams has found with Hawaii DOH, only the aged microfilm of Obama’s BC will be enough to convince he was born in Hawaii.

  18. avatar
    realist June 15, 2012 at 8:17 am #

    A qualified forensic digital document examiner can tell if a digital document has been manipulated. That analysis, however, would have no relevance in determining if any original document were forged/faked.

    In addition, experts give opinions, not conclusions. Those opinions are then evaluated by the trier of fact, i.e., judge or jury. Declaring a document a forgery is not within the purview of the examiner. That is the job of those evaluating the experts’ opinions.

    The mere fact that all of the so-called and completely unqualified birther “experts” declare the pdf to be a forgery is proof in itself they are unqualified as experts.

  19. avatar
    El Diablo Negro June 15, 2012 at 8:31 am #

    Obviously you did not take a course on forensics. In a court of law the Image of a document would be considered hearsay (images can be edited). Anyway you better have some credible forensic background when you get grilled by the opposing Lawyer. Forensics is usually the deciding factor in a conviction. If you are not part of any forensic institution and/or have no formal training in forensics, there is NO credibility. The court of law is all about credibility, And they will defer to well established experts who do forensics for a living.

    john: The key word is “image” not the actual document. Your post is misplaced and your questions irrelevent. All the individuals you cite are certainly qualified in determining the validity of the BC image. As for real document….It is supposely locked up tighter than Fort Knox in Hawaii’s DOH where no one can see it and where we apparently have a very slick worded verification that the BC matches what was released by Obama (It has never been deemed legally valid.) At this point with suspicions that Arpiao’s teams has found with Hawaii DOH, only the aged microfilm of Obama’s BC will be enough to convince he was born in Hawaii.

  20. avatar
    El Diablo Negro June 15, 2012 at 8:32 am #

    Ah well, basically i just repeated what Doc said.

  21. avatar
    john June 15, 2012 at 8:47 am #

    The “image” is irrelevant to Obots but not to birthers. Why? Because Obama has claimed this is his “real” birth certificate from Hawaii. (Image of the Long Form Birth Certificate.) If Obots claimed the experts are irrelevant because they havn’t examined the actual document, then it would it be fair to say, THAT OBAMA HAS YET TO RELEASE HIS LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE FROM HAWAII. We are basically back where started where Obama refuses to release his birth certificate rather making people rely on the “word” of some government workers in Hawaii.

  22. avatar
    Stanislaw June 15, 2012 at 9:07 am #

    Paul:

    It’s not his birth certificate.IT’S AN IMAGE OF HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE.Whether or not the IMAGE has been manipulated says NOTHING about the document itself.

    There are probably a few birthers who know this but won’t say a word about it. No amount of layers can change the fact that the President was born in Hawaii. Even stupider is the birther belief that the President somehow forged a document that happens to contain the exact information that has already confirmed. Why would he do that? Birthers are prescription-strength stupid.

  23. avatar
    El Diablo Negro June 15, 2012 at 9:09 am #

    What experts? Name a forensic examiner with a credible forensic resume that has examined this?

    There is no reason to examine the original becuase someone says it is fake. That is fishing. If any of these Lawyers filing lawsuits were 100% commited to this, they would have an acreddited forensic institute to back up their clams. But forensics cost $$, and donations from birthers to foot the bill would be sustantial.

    john: If Obots claimed the experts are irrelevant because they havn’t examined the actual document, then it would it be fair to say, THAT OBAMA HAS YET TO RELEASE HIS LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE FROM HAWAII

    You want answers from one President and not equally of others. Romney BC is just as flawed. To me the Romnet campaign did this to show how hypocritical birthers are without saying a word.

    john: We are basically back where started where Obama refuses to release his birth certificate rather making people rely on the “word” of some government workers in Hawaii.

  24. avatar
    john June 15, 2012 at 9:16 am #

    Mark Gellar in interviewing Mark Zullo has refuted much of the Obot experts regarding the PDF BC.

    http://networkedblogs.com/yLATh

  25. avatar
    john June 15, 2012 at 9:21 am #

    I do believe there is high likelyhood that Obama was born Kenya. I do believe Hawaii is lying or more accurately put using very slick legal tactics and wording to cover up. The evidence of a Kenyan birth is highly compelling and simply cannot be dismissed until the original birth certificate can be seen and examined by experts. At this point, nothing short than the aged microfilm will probably be sufficient to prove Obama’s birth in Hawaii.

  26. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 15, 2012 at 9:40 am #

    We are well aware of your delusions. As for the microfilm, when that proves authentic you’ll just invent something else.

    john: I do believe there is high likelyhood that Obama was born Kenya. I do believe Hawaii is lying or more accurately put using very slick legal tactics and wording to cover up. The evidence of a Kenyan birth is highly compelling and simply cannot be dismissed until the original birth certificate can be seen and examined by experts. At this point, nothing short than the aged microfilm will probably be sufficient to prove Obama’s birth in Hawaii.

  27. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 15, 2012 at 9:42 am #

    Is the one where they pretend to be normal?

    john: Mark Gellar in interviewing Mark Zullo has refuted much of the Obot experts regarding the PDF BC.

  28. avatar
    donna June 15, 2012 at 9:56 am #

    john:

    “evidence”? what evidence?

    “EVIDENCE” is a LEGAL TERM – i KNOW you’ve been told this before but we have RULES OF EVIDENCE – COURT QUALIFIED forensic “experts” –

    IF birthers wanted to be CONSIDERED relevant, they should have RETAINED forensic experts

    they would have retained COMPETENT counsel who would NOT MAKE a mockery of our judicial system – the PROBLEM IS NO COMPETENT COUNSEL would want THEIR names attached to BIRTHERS

    hawaii is lying?

    the REPUBLICAN fmr governor lingle was campaigning FOR MCCAIN when this began – why would SHE BE LYING?

    to HELP OBAMA?

  29. avatar
    Jim June 15, 2012 at 10:05 am #

    john:
    I do believe there is high likelyhood that Obama was born Kenya.I do believe Hawaii is lying or more accurately put using very slick legal tactics and wording to cover up.The evidence of a Kenyan birth is highly compelling and simply cannot be dismissed until the original birth certificate can be seen and examined by experts.At this point, nothing short than the aged microfilm will probably be sufficient to prove Obama’s birth in Hawaii.

    What exactly is your proof of the Kenyan birth and how do you weigh that against the proof of the Hawaiian birth? And, why is Hawaii lying when it is just following Hawaii laws? Your beliefs are your own…however, the American voters demand proof of your accusations. And I note that your proof is VERY suspect.

  30. avatar
    realist June 15, 2012 at 10:11 am #

    john:
    Mark Gellar in interviewing Mark Zullo has refuted much of the Obot experts regarding the PDF BC.

    http://networkedblogs.com/yLATh

    Zullo has refuted nothing. Neither he nor his so-called experts have the expertise to neither analyze nor opine, except by regurgitating what birthers wish to hear. And when are you going to get it through your thick skull that any analysis regarding the pdf BC is completely irrelevant as relates to the original?

    Rhetorical question, I know.

  31. avatar
    john June 15, 2012 at 10:13 am #

    Yes, it’s very possible Governor Lingle could have been covering up for Obama. In 2008 the GOP intent was to ignore the issue due to media attacks and allegations of racism among other things. Lingle could have been following the mantra of the GOP. As for McCain, I believe he and Obama made a deal. For support on Senate Resolution 511 that made McCain an NBC, McCain promised Obama he would not question him on his eligibility. Even to this day, McCain is still making good on this deal.

  32. avatar
    realist June 15, 2012 at 10:14 am #

    john: We are basically back where started where Obama refuses to release his birth certificate rather making people rely on the “word” of some government workers in Hawaii.

    Obama can not release any original document from HI DOH and neither can HI DOH do so. Nothing short of a court order can do so.

  33. avatar
    Bob June 15, 2012 at 10:50 am #

    john: We are basically back where started where Obama refuses to release his birth certificate rather making people rely on the “word” of some government workers in Hawaii.

    Exactly. Obama has released all he is going to on the subject of eligibility and a judge has accepted the Hawaiian birth certificate at a federal level. So, the ball is now in your court. Do you have anything other than whining and whining and whining?

  34. avatar
    bovril June 15, 2012 at 10:55 am #

    John,

    All rational folks grasp that your ideas are full of the bovine byproduct, so tell you what, go here, read this, come back and explain how your Birther nonsesne failso match up to reality.

    http://www.thefogbow.com/arpaio-report/document-forensics/

  35. avatar
    ASK Esq June 15, 2012 at 10:57 am #

    john:

    I do believe there is high likelyhood that Obama was born Kenya. I do believe Hawaii is lying or more accurately put using very slick legal tactics and wording to cover up. The evidence of a Kenyan birth is highly compelling and simply cannot be dismissed until the original birth certificate can be seen and examined by experts. At this point, nothing short than the aged microfilm will probably be sufficient to prove Obama’s birth in Hawaii.

    John, you are a perfect example of birthers believing what they want to believe. You feel there is a high “likelyhood” that Obama was born in Kenya, and there is compelling evidence of that. In fact, there is absolutely nothing that any reasonable person would look at and even feel there is a suggestion that such a thing happened. But since birthers take anything that supports their cause and calls it 100% accurate fact, all the lies, innuendoes and distortions that suggest the President was born in Kenya are considered by you and you ilk to be absolute proof.

    Meanwhile, the clear and undeniable legally admissible statements by the HDOH that he was born in Hawaii are considered to be lies and legal maneuvering, simply because you cannot accept them as true and continue in your beliefs. You are like young-Earth creationists when faced with dinosaur bones. Please, give it up and accept reality.

  36. avatar
    richCares June 15, 2012 at 11:17 am #

    initially I read john’s posts for comedy relief, but now I realize he is a sad, pathetic loser and no longer funny. His delusions have taken over his life. Without people like john, Sherriff Joe would be in a retirement home suffering dementia. Corsi would only have his continued fantasies on Noah’s flood.

  37. avatar
    Arthur June 15, 2012 at 11:25 am #

    Hi john,

    Thanks for explaining your position. I understand what your concerns are, what you believe to be the truth, and what you’d like to see done.

  38. avatar
    The Magic M June 15, 2012 at 11:34 am #

    john: I do believe Hawaii is lying […]The evidence of a Kenyan birth is highly compelling

    Then where’s the Kenyan birth certificate? To counter the weight of the evidence that points toward Hawaiian birth (COLB and LFBC both authenticated and confirmed by Hawaii, just for a start), you’d need evidence of at least comparable weight. So what do you have? A promotional flyer for a book that was never printed? An interview with Obama’s paternal grandmother that was selectively edited? A couple African newspapers and people who claim Obama was born there? How is that “comparable weight”? You don’t even have a single *official* statement from Kenya. Why is that? Is Kenya “in on it”, too? Who else is? Germany? Russia? Canada?

  39. avatar
    Lupin June 15, 2012 at 11:47 am #

    John reminds me of the old Far side (I think?) cartoon with the dog typing and saying to the other dog, “on the internet no one knows I’m a dog” (or something to that effect).

    As I said above, if we were to meet “John” as a smelly, unkempt man forcing greasy pamphlets into passerbys’ hands outside a subway station, while ranting about Obama, the only reaction we might have is take a few steps aside to avoid the spittle.

    But “John” is on the internet and, lo and behold, his insane rants and greasy tract are magically “sanitized” and we feel the need to engage a man who, unlike say, Meretricious Mario, is clearly delusional and mentally disturbed.

    (There is always the remote possibility that “John” is a troll of the highest order or a performance artist but somehow I don’t think so; besides, that would apply to the greasy, unkempt man as well; who cares if he is Andy Kaufman in disguise.)

  40. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 15, 2012 at 11:54 am #

    The Magic M: Then where’s the Kenyan birth certificate? To counter the weight of the evidence that points toward Hawaiian birth (COLB and LFBC both authenticated and confirmed by Hawaii, just for a start), you’d need evidence of at least comparable weight…You don’t even have a single *official* statement from Kenya. Why is that? Is Kenya “in on it”, too? Who else is? Germany? Russia? Canada?

    You forget: John has stumbled into the topsy-turvy rabbit-hole called Birferland. There is one over-riding and all-important rule in Birferland: Nothing means what it says, no evidence is valid, no document is authentic, no court opinion is correct, unless it agrees with a piece of the BirferBullshit.

    If a Birfer says there have only been twenty-eight Presidents, not 44, in Birferland it means that every single document that says there have been 44 must have been using base 6, meaning there have really been 28. And you are an ignorant, backward Communist poopy-head if you say otherwise.

    If John says Rin Tin Tin was actually a pig, not a dog, then every trainer, director, and owner who worked with the dogs who played Rin Tin Tin were all liars. Why? Because one tabloid writer who penned a single article on Rinny in 1963 said, only once, after seeing the dog eat his dinner, “He was an absolute pig.” Proof positive in Birferland!

    On similar evidence, John can ‘prove’ Obama was born in Kenya.

    You can never win an argument with an inmate of Birferland. Who could have imagined otherwise? Happily, there is a real world, where John Woodman, Doc, RC, and the rest of us live. Eventually we will park a huge concrete rendering of a dunce-cap over the rabbit-hole, and Birferism will be forgotten.

  41. avatar
    Chef June 15, 2012 at 12:13 pm #

    Forensic experts want the original document. PDFs don’t cut it.

    More importantly, please let me know if you can expose the latest conspiracy theory:

    http://www.obamasrealfather.com/

  42. avatar
    Thrifty June 15, 2012 at 12:21 pm #

    Except the people you Birthers tout as “forensic experts” who declare the birth certificate to be a forgery have only see the online images and declare those to be a forgery. If they had a shred of honesty, they’d say “I can’t tell for sure whether or not it’s a forgery, because it’s just an online image”. Instead, we get “It’s definitely a forgery because of too many layers/not enough layers/halo effect/smiley face/countless other BS reasons.”

    Birthers want to have it both ways. They want to say “We can tell it’s a forgery by looking at the online image.” and “You can’t call it authentic because it’s just an online image.”

    Chef: Forensic experts want the original document. PDFs don’t cut it.More importantly, please let me know if you can expose the latest conspiracy theory:http://www.obamasrealfather.com/

  43. avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) June 15, 2012 at 12:23 pm #

    Chef: Forensic experts want the original document. PDFs don’t cut it.More importantly, please let me know if you can expose the latest conspiracy theory:http://www.obamasrealfather.com/

    Not one forensic expert has asked for the Original. The only real forensic experts who have looked at the PDF have found no evidence of fraud.

  44. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 15, 2012 at 12:23 pm #

    john: Obama refuses to release his birth certificate rather making people rely on the “word” of some government workers in Hawaii.

    That’s how it works everywhere, John. No one….anywhere in America…..gets their original birth record. It’s a vital record that is retained by a government agency because of its importance to the person and givernment. So the notion that Obama could, or should, release the original record is nonsense.

    Hawaii handles birth certificates the same way every other state does: You get a certified copy or certified record that the state – not just “some government workers” – says is true and accurate.

  45. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 15, 2012 at 12:31 pm #

    john: At this point, nothing short than the aged microfilm will probably be sufficient to prove Obama’s birth in Hawaii.

    What “aged microfilm”, John?

    We have two documents from Hawaii. One is clearly a print out from a data base.

    The other – the Certificate of Live Birth – is (as I understand it) bound in a book of original birth records; copied onto security paper while still in the binder. That certainly is the way the certified copy looks, right?

    So…..what microfilm are you talking about? And since, if it exists, it will just be an image (a 20th century PDF, if you will) how do we know it isn’t forged? John?

  46. avatar
    richCares June 15, 2012 at 12:32 pm #

    Chef says “More importantly, please let me know if you can expose the latest conspiracy theory:
    http://www.obamasrealfather.com/
    .
    there is no need to expose garbage, only an idiot would belieive that site.

  47. avatar
    Thrifty June 15, 2012 at 12:33 pm #

    Thanks! Now my irony powered car has enough fuel to make it all the way across the U.S.

    bgansel9: “California attorney Gary Kreep put his name and California bar license under this garbage and this attorney might become a judge in the near future. This is absolutely frightening. It is mind boggling that a person like this will be allowed to become a judge.
    If Kreep becomes a judge, lives of multiple individuals can be ruined. Many lives are affected even now, with him being an attorney. This matter requires urgent investigation, as Kreep might become a judge in near future. If he could show zero conscience, zero integrity and zero moral values in attacking multiple innocent individuals with a bogus law suit, colluding with a dangerous criminal and another attorney without ethics, he can inflict much more damage to the society as a judge. While I agreed with the subject matter of some other cases brought by Kreep, his latest actions are so outrageous that I cannot be silent and an urgent attention is needed.
    I trust the disciplinary counsel of the CA bar with review this matter with the outmost urgency.”
    Sincerely,
    Dr. Orly Taitz, ESQ

  48. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 15, 2012 at 12:34 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: We are well aware of your delusions. As for the microfilm, when that proves authentic you’ll just invent something else.

    Is there microfilm of the Hawaii records? My impression is that the Certificate of Live Birth (Long Form?) was copied from the bound records.

    One thing I’ve never seen confirmed is that the stuff int he bound records is, in fact, the original document. Is it? Do you know?

  49. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 15, 2012 at 12:40 pm #

    Chef: More importantly, please let me know if you can expose the latest conspiracy theory:

    You can’t prove a negative, Chef.

  50. avatar
    JD Reed June 15, 2012 at 12:46 pm #

    Lupin: John reminds me of the old Far side (I think?) cartoon with the dog typing and saying to the other dog, “on the internet no one knows I’m a dog” (or something to that effect).

    Well, as we saw with John’s post about never voting AGAIN for Florida Secretary of State Ken Detzner, we know that getting the facts right is not his strong suit. As someone has pointed out, this official is appointed (by the governor). Now until a few years ago, the secretary of state was elected, but one Katherine Harris was the last one elected to that post, and the abolishment of the office as an elective one was probably no coincidence.

    It’s true that Detzner served as secretary of state when it was an elective office.

    Oh, sorry if I got you hopes up, but this is also a dead end. Detzner was APPOINTED as interim secretary of state by then-Gov. Jeb Bush when the office fell vacant.

  51. avatar
    Rickey June 15, 2012 at 12:46 pm #

    Chef:

    More importantly, please let me know if you can expose the latest conspiracy theory:

    http://www.obamasrealfather.com/

    What’s this? I thought that Obama’s real name is Barry Shabazz and his father was Malcolm X. Your birthers need to get your act together.

  52. avatar
    Rickey June 15, 2012 at 12:55 pm #

    The Zatkovich report which WND refused to publish is here:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/96753992/Obama-PDF-Report-Final

  53. avatar
    Arthur June 15, 2012 at 12:57 pm #

    Hi Chef,

    If the Hawaii Dept, of Health allowed document examiners to study Obama’s original birth record, would it be ok with you that they were recognized experts in their field, or would you only be satisfied if people like Polland, Vogt, Irey, or Zebest did the examination?

    As far as the video goes, the claims are pretty far-fetched. I know a little about the man who made the video. His name is Joel Gilbert and his main gig is fronting a successful cover-band devoted to the music of Bob Dylan. I met him about ten years ago at “Bob Fest” a festival devoted to the music of Bob Dylan, held annually in Spring Green, WI. Although Joel is a bit chubby, he resembles Dylan circa 1975, and he does a good impersonation of Dylan’s singing and guitar playing (he wrote an analysis of early Dylan fingerstyle guitar, unfortunately, now out of print). Joel also runs a video production company. He made an interesting documentary about a photographer who toured with Dylan, and he’s also made some “mocumentary’s” about the music industry. Joel’s a pretty passionate Zionist and dislikes Obama because he feels the President is weak on Israel.

    Chef: Forensic experts want the original document. PDFs don’t cut it.More importantly, please let me know if you can expose the latest conspiracy theory:http://www.obamasrealfather.com/

  54. avatar
    Northland10 June 15, 2012 at 1:20 pm #

    How about an aged microfilm of his “Kenya Birth Certificate” or did somebody forget to make that?

    john:
    I do believe there is high likelyhood that Obama was born Kenya.I do believe Hawaii is lying or more accurately put using very slick legal tactics and wording to cover up.The evidence of a Kenyan birth is highly compelling and simply cannot be dismissed until the original birth certificate can be seen and examined by experts.At this point, nothing short than the aged microfilm will probably be sufficient to prove Obama’s birth in Hawaii.

  55. avatar
    foreigner June 15, 2012 at 1:21 pm #

    where are the (certified) obot-experts ?

  56. avatar
    gorefan June 15, 2012 at 1:28 pm #

    foreigner:
    where are the (certified) obot-experts ?

    Dr. Neal Krawetz

    “The PDF released by the White House shows no sign of digital manipulation or alterations. I see nothing that appears to be suspicious.”

    Victoria Nicks (actually she is one of WNDs experts)

    “The changes made to the original document by OCR software and image optimization have rendered it impossible to determine whether these inconsistencies are due to manual tampering, or are simply the result of the optimization and scanning process.”

  57. avatar
    foreigner June 15, 2012 at 1:31 pm #

    hired by the whitehouse-team ?

  58. avatar
    Jim June 15, 2012 at 1:33 pm #

    foreigner:
    hired by the whitehouse-team ?

    Why would the Whitehouse hire an expert to check a document they already know is real?

  59. avatar
    foreigner June 15, 2012 at 1:36 pm #

    to dismiss the Court hearings
    Since for some strange reason the whitehouse themselves
    apparently can’t comment and prove what they know.

  60. avatar
    Jim June 15, 2012 at 1:39 pm #

    foreigner:
    to dismiss the Court hearings
    Since for some strange reason the whitehouse themselves
    apparently can’t comment and prove what they know.

    Won’t work, birthers will just call the examiners liars, or on the Whitehouse payroll, or that they’ve been “gotten to” by the Whitehouse. The Whitehouse has commented many, many times that President Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961 and they’ve offered up more proof than any candidate in the history of the country.

  61. avatar
    foreigner June 15, 2012 at 1:41 pm #

    > won’t work

    so, what’s the expert certificate good for then ?
    (on either side)

  62. avatar
    Arthur June 15, 2012 at 1:41 pm #

    To my knowledge, no one has been hired by the White House to evaluate the pdf.

    foreigner: hired by the whitehouse-team ?

  63. avatar
    Arthur June 15, 2012 at 1:43 pm #

    It’s not necessary; the state of Hawaii has established its veracity.

    foreigner: > won’t workso, what’s the expert certificate good for then ?(on either side)

  64. avatar
    foreigner June 15, 2012 at 1:49 pm #

    but if the birthers had a certified expert who confirms their claims,
    that might change things. (said the Dr.)
    Now, if the Obama-team had a certified expert who says
    he sees no sign of forgery , that changes nothing ?
    Won’t make it easier to dismiss in Court ?

  65. avatar
    Hawaiiborn June 15, 2012 at 1:55 pm #

    foreigner:
    hired by the whitehouse-team ?

    WND hired three of them ; all of whom WND did not post their findings. One of them on their own released his findings on his own (linked previously) and pretty much said there is no fraud found.

    Dr. Neal Krawetz is a person who his own analysis, and published his own report.

    So four experts, 3 of which were hired by birther site (WND), and refused to publish their findings, found nothing WRONG with the PDF as posted to the White House website.

  66. avatar
    Hawaiiborn June 15, 2012 at 1:57 pm #

    foreigner:
    but if the birthers had a certified expert who confirms their claims, that might change things. (said the Dr.)

    the problem is, they didn’t, they don’t and they never will. They have pseudo experts testifying outside of their field of expertise.

    foreigner:
    Now, if the Obama-team had a certified expert who says
    he sees no sign of forgery , that changes nothing ?
    Won’t make it easier to dismiss in Court ?

    Again, why would Obama need experts to testify on documents they know not to be forgeries.

    That’s like asking the Federal Mint to hire counterfeit experts to test the sheets of money that comes right out of their Printing press.

  67. avatar
    foreigner June 15, 2012 at 1:57 pm #

    but it’s not being presented in Court.
    No certified expertise, no affidavit or such.

  68. avatar
    Hawaiiborn June 15, 2012 at 1:59 pm #

    foreigner:
    but it’s not being presented in Court.
    No certified expertise, no affidavit or such.

    so what? you first have to have standing in order to submit evidence to a court. Birthers are batting 0 cases won out of 141, on that issue.

  69. avatar
    foreigner June 15, 2012 at 2:00 pm #

    Hawaiiborn, when you are challenged in Court you get lawyers to defend.
    And you want to make it quick and cheap and not trial after trial after

  70. avatar
    Hawaiiborn June 15, 2012 at 2:05 pm #

    foreigner:
    Hawaiiborn, when you are challenged in Court you get lawyers to defend.

    Have you been paying attention? Obama has been named in only a handful (you can count the cases on one hand), out of 141 cases. And each time its been his private lawyer or a person assigned by the White House counsel to represent them.

    did you miss the part where you must have standing? all of the cases in which Obama was defended, the cases were dismissed because the plaintiffs had no standing. YOU have to get past standing in order to get to the point where evidence can be submitted. NO single case involving Obama, got past standing.

    quick and cheap is to make sure a Motion to Dismiss is filed timely, because of lack of standing.

  71. avatar
    foreigner June 15, 2012 at 2:08 pm #

    it’s also the publicity. Lack of standing doesn’t really mean innocent.
    If you were accused of murder, but had a perfect alibi, would
    you hide it because the chance is big that the proofs are insufficient ?

  72. avatar
    Jim June 15, 2012 at 2:13 pm #

    foreigner:
    but if the birthers had a certified expert who confirms their claims,
    that might change things. (said the Dr.)
    Now, if the Obama-team had a certified expert who says
    he sees no sign of forgery , that changes nothing ?
    Won’t make it easier to dismiss in Court ?

    Actually, the holder of the records (Hawaii) verifying the veracity of the information on the BC as being the same as in their records is much more acceptable than a birther expert (bwahahahaha) claiming that an image on the web “may” be a forgery.

  73. avatar
    Hawaiiborn June 15, 2012 at 2:13 pm #

    foreigner:
    it’s also the publicity. Lack of standing doesn’t really mean innocent.

    sorry, but we live in the USA. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

    foreigner: If you were accused of murder, but had a perfect alibi, would
    you hide it because the chance is big that the proofs are insufficient ?

    that’s the equivalent of me asking “Have you beaten your wife today?”

    Obama isn’t being accused of anything so he has no obligation to “defend” himself against anything. These are the cries of impotent morons with a stick up their @$$3$ because he happens to be black.

  74. avatar
    BillTheCat June 15, 2012 at 2:17 pm #

    john: I do believe there is high likelyhood that Obama was born Kenya. I do believe Hawaii is lying or more accurately put using very slick legal tactics and wording to cover up. The evidence of a Kenyan birth is highly compelling and simply cannot be dismissed until the original birth certificate can be seen and examined by experts. At this point, nothing short than the aged microfilm will probably be sufficient to prove Obama’s birth in Hawaii.

    Good thing for the world no one cares what you think, and furthermore, no court agrees with you.

  75. avatar
    bovril June 15, 2012 at 2:18 pm #

    “foreigner”

    I don’t know which country you come from but her in the US there is this English common law precept called the assumption of innocence.

    That means that the original state verified birth certificate, of which an image is available to review is accepted in law as genuine, the presidents natality is accepted as proven and birthers get to pound sand.

    The burden of DISPROVING is on the jackels like yourself and as we have seen, at over 130 court cases later, you have bugger all squared.

  76. avatar
    foreigner June 15, 2012 at 2:24 pm #

    “It would be huge.”

  77. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 15, 2012 at 2:27 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Is there microfilm of the Hawaii records? My impression is that the Certificate of Live Birth (Long Form?) was copied from the bound records. One thing I’ve never seen confirmed is that the stuff int he bound records is, in fact, the original document. Is it? Do you know?

    Doc,

    I just looked at the Zatkovich report that Rickey linked to and found the answer to my question:

    “A representative of the Hawaii Department of Heatlh described how the copy of the Obama Birth Certificate was produced. She stated that the copy of Obama’s birth certificate was produced by taking the original paper birth certificcate, which was black printing on white paper. The original is then placed on the photocopy machine and that image is copied onto green “safety paper”. That green copy is then stamped, dated and signed by the State Registrar.”

    Zatkovich’s report was issued four days after the certified copy of the Certificate of Birth (long form) was issued.

  78. avatar
    Arthur June 15, 2012 at 2:30 pm #

    Well, such a procedure wouldn’t satisfy or convince a bither, and it’s unnecessary for everyone else. Seems like it would be a waste of time and money.

    foreigner: Now, if the Obama-team had a certified expert who says
    he sees no sign of forgery , that changes nothing ?
    Won’t make it easier to dismiss in Court ?

  79. avatar
    Stanislaw June 15, 2012 at 2:44 pm #

    foreigner:
    where are the (certified) obot-experts ?

    Don’t need any. Why? The state of Hawaii has already confirmed that the President was born there. Game, set, match. Haven’t you been paying attention? That’s why the birthers have yet to see victory inside of a courtroom, including the hearing in Georgia where they literally lost to an empty chair.

  80. avatar
    y_p_w June 15, 2012 at 2:53 pm #

    foreigner:
    but if the birthers had a certified expert who confirms their claims,
    that might change things. (said the Dr.)
    Now, if the Obama-team had a certified expert who says
    he sees no sign of forgery , that changes nothing ?
    Won’t make it easier to dismiss in Court ?

    Yes they do have such an expert. Alvin T. Onaka Ph.D – State Registrar for the State of Hawaii. Ph.D from the University of Massachusetts at Amherst and postgrad at the University of Minnesota. Here’s a picture:

    http://www.examiner.com/slideshow/cold-case-posse-hawaii#slide=47977166

    His ability to say that a particular image represents exactly what was sent by his office might be limited. With an image he can only verify that the information represented on an image matches the DOH records on file. If he had an actual physical copy, I’m sure he could verify that it was one issued by his department.

  81. avatar
    y_p_w June 15, 2012 at 3:04 pm #

    Stanislaw: Don’t need any. Why? The state of Hawaii has already confirmed that the President was born there. Game, set, match. Haven’t you been paying attention? That’s why the birthers have yet to see victory inside of a courtroom, including the hearing in Georgia where they literally lost to an empty chair.

    Basically any attorney on either side could submit a copy of the White House PDF for a court case and could then request a letter of verification. Of course I’m guessing that the attorneys questioning Obama’s birthplace won’t like what they get.

  82. avatar
    ASK Esq June 15, 2012 at 3:09 pm #

    foreigner: Hawaiiborn, when you are challenged in Court you get lawyers to defend.And you want to make it quick and cheap and not trial after trial after

    Right. The quickest and cheapest way is to get the case dismissed before it even gets to discovery, let alone trial. If the people making the claim against you have no basis for doing so, you don’t give the other side what they’re asking for to prove they’re wrong, you just let the court know there is no case.

  83. avatar
    Rickey June 15, 2012 at 3:28 pm #

    foreigner:
    but if the birthers had a certified expert who confirms their claims,
    that might change things. (said the Dr.)
    Now, if the Obama-team had a certified expert who says
    he sees no sign of forgery , that changes nothing ?
    Won’t make it easier to dismiss in Court ?

    It hasn’t been necessary to address the forgery claims in court because the “evidence” presented by the birthers is inadmissible. The only time testimony about it was allowed was in the Georgia case. The “evidence” was so weak that Obama’s attorney didn’t even bother to refute it and the judge ruled that the “experts” were not qualified.

    A defendant has no obligation to respond to allegations which are not properly framed.

    Besides, a certified document from Hawaii has been filed in Federal Court in Mississippi. It says “The information contained in the ‘Certificate of Live Birth’ published at http://whitehouse/gov/blog/2011/04/27/president-obamas-long-form-birth-certificate and reviewed by me on the date of this verification, a copy of which is attached to your request, matches the information contained in the original Certificate of Live Birth for Barack Hussein Obama, II on file with the State of Hawaii Department of Health.”

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/96221269/HI-DOH-Official-Verification-of-President-Obama-s-Hawaiian-Birth

    Do you get it? The information on the pdf is identical to the information on the original LFBC. Nothing has been added, nothing has been changed, nothing has been taken away.

  84. avatar
    JoZeppy June 15, 2012 at 3:31 pm #

    foreigner: it’s also the publicity. Lack of standing doesn’t really mean innocent.

    Well, the terms are pretty much unrelated. “Innocent” implies a criminal trial, whereas “standing” pretty much civil. Since there is no evidence to lead to indictment of the President, it means he is innocent, as we all have a presumption of innocence in the country. Since birthers have no standing for the vast majority of litigation it means he has no civil liability to any of them.

    foreigner: If you were accused of murder, but had a perfect alibi, would you hide it because the chance is big that the proofs are insufficient ?

    Let’s see….do I file a motion to dismiss the first chance we get because the prosecutor has no case, or do I continue to pay my lawyer his fees so I can go to trial, sit the the prosecutor’s entire case (continuing to pay my attorney by the hour), then again forego moving to dismiss for failure to put forward a prima facie case, (with the attorney’s meter still running), and just so I could put forward my “perfect alibi?” I’m glad you feel so highly of attorneys that you want to maximize their fees.

    foreigner: Hawaiiborn, when you are challenged in Court you get lawyers to defend.
    And you want to make it quick and cheap and not trial after trial after

    In case you missed it, the dismissals to come very quickly. Just because birthers refuse to accept reality is not the fault of the victom of frivolous suits.

    foreigner: but it’s not being presented in Court.No certified expertise, no affidavit or such.

    There is no need. You have confirmation from the State of Hawaii. No more needs to be done. the burden is no 100% on birthers to show why the document should not be relied on. So unless you have actual evidence (you know, the proofy kind) of massive fraud in the State of Hawaii spanning Republican and Democratic administrations, you’re 100% SOL.

    foreigner: Now, if the Obama-team had a certified expert who says
    he sees no sign of forgery , that changes nothing ?
    Won’t make it easier to dismiss in Court ?

    Again, in case you missed it, there hasn’t been all that much trouble dismissing these actions.

    foreigner: Since for some strange reason the whitehouse themselves
    apparently can’t comment and prove what they know.

    In case you missed it, they’re busy doing more important things than dealing with petulent children….you know…like running the country.

  85. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 15, 2012 at 3:37 pm #

    If the evidence is “highly compelling” then why wouldn’t you just invent some other crazy scenario consistent with a contemporary birth certificate? The answer is that for a birther, the conspiracy theory can’t be dismissed no matter what.

    The reason I appreciate John is that he is such a classic conspiracy theorist, willing to expand the conspiracy theory boundlessly and to attribute enormous power to the conspirators. We have a living, breathing textbook case.

    john: I do believe there is high likelyhood (sic) that Obama was born Kenya. I do believe Hawaii is lying or more accurately put using very slick legal tactics and wording to cover up. The evidence of a Kenyan birth is highly compelling and simply cannot be dismissed until the original birth certificate can be seen and examined by experts.

  86. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 15, 2012 at 3:45 pm #

    I disagree. I stand by my analysis of the John McCain birth certificate and conclusion that it was a fake. While I agree that one cannot prove the authenticity of a document from an image, I believe that one can disprove the authenticity of a document from an image if the fake is poorly done.

    Lupin: Analyzing a pdf, jpg or tiff scan of a document is completely pointless with respect to the authenticity of the document itself.

  87. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 15, 2012 at 3:53 pm #

    Ivan Zatkovich.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Zatkovich-Obama-PDF-report-final.pdf

    Neal Krawetz

    http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/428-After-Birth.html

    El Diablo Negro: What experts? Name a forensic examiner with a credible forensic resume that has examined this?

  88. avatar
    linda June 15, 2012 at 4:05 pm #

    The attorneys for the defense did that in the MS case, Taitz v Democrat Party of MS, et al.

    y_p_w: Basically any attorney on either side could submit a copy of the White House PDF for a court case and could then request a letter of verification. Of course I’m guessing that the attorneys questioning Obama’s birthplace won’t like what they get.

  89. avatar
    Xyxox June 15, 2012 at 4:15 pm #

    john:
    I do believe there is high likelyhood that Obama was born Kenya.I do believe Hawaii is lying or more accurately put using very slick legal tactics and wording to cover up.The evidence of a Kenyan birth is highly compelling and simply cannot be dismissed until the original birth certificate can be seen and examined by experts.At this point, nothing short than the aged microfilm will probably be sufficient to prove Obama’s birth in Hawaii.

    Obviously, the Illuminati planted the birth certificate in the Hawaii Department of Health records in order to insure that a black man would be elevated to 33rd degree Mason prior to illegally taking over the presidency in order to hide the evidence of World Trade Center 7 being blown up from within which had to be done to destroy the records of the fake moon landings.

    The conspiracy is HUGE, HUGE I TELL YOU!!!!

    Put on the tinfoil….

  90. avatar
    ellen June 15, 2012 at 4:20 pm #

    Re: “More importantly, please let me know if you can expose the latest conspiracy theory:http://www.obamasrealfather.com/

    One way to expose such a fantastic theory is to show that two can play the same game. Haven’t you noticed how much Mitt Romney looks like Harpo Marx? Surely Harpo must be his real father.

    And you, you the writer, haven’t you noticed how much you look like JFK or LBJ or Jack Benny or Mischa Auer or the Unibomber or the mascot for the Cleveland Indians? Surely one of them must be your real father.

  91. avatar
    gorefan June 15, 2012 at 4:37 pm #

    Xyxox: Obviously, the Illuminati planted the birth certificate in the Hawaii Department

    The cold case posse’s new theory involves the mafia.

  92. avatar
    Stanislaw June 15, 2012 at 5:47 pm #

    foreigner:
    it’s also the publicity. Lack of standing doesn’t really mean innocent.
    If you were accused of murder, but had a perfect alibi, would
    you hide it because the chance is big that the proofs are insufficient ?

    Your question shows that you don’t understand the legal process very well. No matter how perfect my alibi is, I’m still going to move to have that indictment dismissed as soon as possible. That means I won’t get to use my alibi but it also means that I won’t even come close to seeing a jury. Why pay more money later for something that can be done cheaply now?

    It’s always–always–quicker and easier to get a case dismissed early as opposed to letting it drag on forever. Anything less and you’d be doing your client a disservice.

  93. avatar
    JPotter June 15, 2012 at 6:12 pm #

    gorefan: The cold case posse’s new theory involves the mafia.

    Is this the one about the mafia and Japanese families? If so, are they talking the Yakuza, or the Sicilian Mafia? Or a previously unknown Hawaiian crime family? I mean mafia has a specific meaning, or at least it used to. I don’t see why they’d be hooking up Japanese families.

  94. avatar
    JPotter June 15, 2012 at 6:15 pm #

    john:
    Mark Gellar in interviewing Mark Zullo has refuted much of the Obot experts regarding the PDF BC.

    http://networkedblogs.com/yLATh

    Of course he has …. where do you think he gets his information? From the “Obots” LOL!

  95. avatar
    gorefan June 15, 2012 at 6:24 pm #

    JPotter: If so, are they talking the Yakuza

    I assumed that since he didn’t qualify it as the Japanese mafia, he was referring to the Vito Corleone style mafia. But maybe he was leaving his opinions open in case he need to pivot from one to the other later.

  96. avatar
    US Citizen June 15, 2012 at 7:08 pm #

    I don’t care what Arpaio or Zullo says.
    There’s no such thing as the mafia and we’re certainly not bigger than US Steel.

  97. avatar
    foreigner June 15, 2012 at 9:01 pm #

    Obots said the same before the longform was released : not needed.
    Why then was it released ? Was it a huge mistake ?
    What will you say when indeed Obama does hire these experts
    later, does indeed allow inspection in Hawaii ?
    (when he considers the timing good and maybe goes down in the polls)
    Would you be disappointed ? Would you consider it a huge mistake ?
    Wouldn’t it prove you all wrong since apparently everyone thinks
    he shouldn’t do it ?
    As I understood Onaka is “registrar” and not forensic certified expert.
    And some birthers suspect him of being involved in the forgery.
    ———————————-
    Dr. Conspiracy June 15, 2012 at 3:45 pm Dr. Conspiracy(Quote) #
    > I disagree. I stand by my analysis of the John McCain birth certificate
    > and conclusion that it was a fake.
    really ? or is it some sort of humor ?
    ————————————
    JoZeppy, forgery is criminal, it’s not cheaper to let them continue rather
    than proving your innocence, too busy to stop this by just allowing inspection
    or to just explain how the pdf was created ?
    but not too busy for all these trials ? the other points I addressed before
    ———————————-
    birthers would never be content anyway ? They said they would, most of them
    clearly content were when the LFBC was released.
    Seems like saying you won’t reply to any questions of the investigators
    since they ~never~ would be content and ~always~ would come up
    with further questions
    ————————————-
    Stanislaw, with the perfect alibi they would just drop it, no accusation, no suspection.
    ————————————–
    you see, where this dismissing strategy led Obama.
    25% of the population thought he were not eligible
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories#Opinion_surveys
    before he released the LFBC.
    ——————————————
    it doesn’t make sense
    ————————————-

  98. avatar
    Expelliarmus June 15, 2012 at 9:03 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: While I agree that one cannot prove the authenticity of a document from an image, I believe that one can disprove the authenticity of a document from an image if the fake is poorly done.

    Agreed, and same goes for the various fake Kenyan birth certificates.

    Also that Canadian birth certificate signed by Dudley DoRight that Berg had in the first birther suit way back in 2008.

  99. avatar
    Northland10 June 15, 2012 at 9:43 pm #

    foreigner: As I understood Onaka is “registrar” and not forensic certified expert.
    And some birthers suspect him of being involved in the forgery.

    See if you can follow. I get a cashiers check from a bank properly signed and certified, etc. I take the check to whom I am paying. The recipient claims the cashiers check is a forgery so we go to the bank. The bank says it our our check, it is good and legit. The recipient than accuses the bank of making a forgery of their own cashiers check.

    Now this doesn’t make sense but it is exactly what you and the Birthers are claiming. Hawaii has stated the Birth Certificate is legit and matches the information. However, besides going absurd and claiming that Hawaii is forging their own forms, they Birthers do this while having no evidence that the President was born anywhere else. Claims of forgery are difficult when there is no supportive evidence for anything else.

    Using the homicide analogy, the Birthers are trying to claim somebody committed a homicide yet, not only are they missing a dead person, they have no missing person and they do not even know of any victim. They are just positive that Obama has committed this non-existent crime and he should prove he did not commit the non-existent crime.

  100. avatar
    Majority Will June 15, 2012 at 9:51 pm #

    Northland10: See if you can follow.

    You lost the birther right there.

  101. avatar
    Scientist June 15, 2012 at 9:52 pm #

    foreigner: Seems like saying you won’t reply to any questions of the investigators
    since they ~never~ would be content and ~always~ would come up
    with further questions

    Have the “investigators” i.e., the CCP, ever actually contacted the White House and asked for the details of how the pdf was produced? Isn’t that the very first thing competent investigators would do? The White House might be say, “I did x, using y hardware and z software “. Then your crack investigators could go and do exactly the same and maybe they would get a file that looked the same as the White House file. That would save $ 40,000, 2,000 hours and trips to Hawaii. When I say White House, I don’t mean the President himself by the way, since it’s highly doubtful he personally scanned the document and posted the file on the website, I mean the actual flunkie in the copy room who did the scanning and posting.

    foreigner: you see, where this dismissing strategy led Obama.
    25% of the population thought he were not eligible
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories#Opinion_surveys
    before he released the LFBC.

    The polls actually asked about born in the US, not eligibility-they are different since you can be born outside the US and still be eligible. Anyway, most of those people would never vote for Obama. There are also many who don’t care about eligibility and just vote for the person they like (smart people). There is no evidence that birtherism has ever swayed a single vote. In fact, it might make some people MORE likely to vote for Obama..

  102. avatar
    Stanislaw June 15, 2012 at 9:53 pm #

    foreigner:

    ————————————-
    Stanislaw, with the perfect alibi they would just drop it, no accusation, no suspection.
    ————————————–

    If this analogy held true in the real world as it relates to birthers then there wouldn’t be any more birthers. The President’s birth certificate says that he was born in Hawaii. Officials from the state of Hawaii have said that the information that they have in their files says that the President was born in Hawaii. In 1961, the President’s mother lived in and attended school in Hawaii, and there’s no evidence that she ever set foot in Kenya while pregnant…and there’s even less evidence that in the five decades since, the President has somehow “slipped through the cracks” by forging hundreds, if not thousands of documents to conceal his Kenyan birth.

    Yet four years later the birthers haven’t dropped it and they’re still accusing and speculating despite having no rational reason for doing so. This is why we (okay, I) make fun of birthers so much. Birthers are stupid.

  103. avatar
    G June 15, 2012 at 10:06 pm #

    It WASN”T needed. The COLB always was the official HI document and remains so to this day. Therefore, that was ALWAYS legally sufficient.

    Deciding to eventually get a LFBC to attempt to appease a certain amount of whiney ignorants was merely a CHOICE. It was neither a mistake nor a necessary action.

    It did succeed in eliminating a number of merely gullible malcontents and leaving only the hard-core birther denialists to stew and come up with new BS goalposts to whine about.

    Regardless, it was not necessary. All polling ever of Birtherism, even at the height of its “popularity”, has always been constrained to the already suffering ODS crowd. In other words, just a mere whiney excuse to be bandied about by those who never voted for him in the first place and would never vote for him regardless.

    In other words, you clowns have always been and will always remain irrelevant to the actual re-election equation, as your opposition votes are already factored in. He simply didn’t need your support and never will.

    foreigner: Obots said the same before the longform was released : not needed.
    Why then was it released ? Was it a huge mistake ?

  104. avatar
    G June 15, 2012 at 10:09 pm #

    Agreed. And yes, gladly add me to the “we”. 😉

    Stanislaw: Yet four years later the birthers haven’t dropped it and they’re still accusing and speculating despite having no rational reason for doing so. This is why we (okay, I) make fun of birthers so much. Birthers are stupid.

  105. avatar
    G June 15, 2012 at 10:10 pm #

    Agreed. Well put!

    Majority Will:

    Northland10: See if you can follow.

    You lost the birther right there.

  106. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 15, 2012 at 10:18 pm #

    Obviously nobody here speaks for Barack Obama, or Obama for America. I believe that they have better political strategists than me. So I won’t judge what was the best thing to do, and I have no way of knowing what would have happened if Obama had done something differently. It seems to me that the release of the long form was a specific response to Donald Trump media flash.

    I do not believe that I ever personally offered an opinion as to what Barack Obama should or should not do vis-a-vis the birthers.

    However, we see that nothing Obama releases has any effect on the hard-core birthers.

    All of the birther doubts are silly. The only question is the best way to deal with them.

    As for my comment about McCain’s birth certificate, I was 100% serious. John McCain never released a birth certificate, but the one that Fred Hollander submitted in his lawsuit is a fake (and contradicts where McCain says he was born). I wrote about it:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/02/the-birth-certificate-is-a-forgery/

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/04/john-mccains-fake-birth-certificate/

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/03/birth-certificate-is-a-clumsy-forgery/

    foreigner: Obots said the same before the longform was released : not needed.
    Why then was it released ? Was it a huge mistake ?
    What will you say when indeed Obama does hire these experts
    later, does indeed allow inspection in Hawaii ?

  107. avatar
    G June 15, 2012 at 10:27 pm #

    foreigner:
    What will you say when indeed Obama does hire these expertslater, does indeed allow inspection in Hawaii ?(when he considers the timing good and maybe goes down in the polls)Would you be disappointed ? Would you consider it a huge mistake ?Wouldn’t it prove you all wrong since apparently everyone thinkshe shouldn’t do it ?

    Won’t happen. Therefore, idle speculation on such a silly scenario is a complete waste of time.

    foreigner:
    As I understood Onaka is “registrar” and not forensic certified expert.And some birthers suspect him of being involved in the forgery.

    Wow, you truly do your best to come across as an idiot. Bravo, you’ve succeeded again. Why don’t you look up the definition and duties of what the HI DOH “registrar” is and does.

    By mere definition, there is NO more qualified expert on the authenticity and legitimacy of any HI BC generated under his watch than him.

    And no, he doesn’t need “forensic” as part of his qualifications. You don’t need “forensic” analysis unless you have to recreate an event, where there is no actual “live” authority who can attest to something’s authenticity.

    As Onaka is still around and in charge of such records and they bear his signature of authority, that is complete proof of authenticity right there. Full stop. NOTHING tops that in these specific regards – period. Game over, you’ve lost.

  108. avatar
    G June 15, 2012 at 10:31 pm #

    foreigner:
    JoZeppy, forgery is criminal, it’s not cheaper to let them continue ratherthan proving your innocence, too busy to stop this by just allowing inspectionor to just explain how the pdf was created ?but not too busy for all these trials ?

    NO criminal charges of forgery have EVER been filed, nor will they be, as there is no real basis to make such a charge.

    NO trials have taken place at all.

    You are simply mistaken and living in utter fantasy land, completely detached from actual reality.

  109. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 15, 2012 at 10:37 pm #

    The registrar of vital records is an expert in the forms of certificates and the security features they use. Birthers suspecting something is a non-statement. Birthers suspect whatever suits birtherism without regard for the substance of the suspicion.

    foreigner: As I understood Onaka is “registrar” and not forensic certified expert.
    And some birthers suspect him of being involved in the forgery.

  110. avatar
    Sef June 15, 2012 at 10:40 pm #

    foreigner: it doesn’t make sense

    Truer words have not been spoken about this whole birther idiocy.

  111. avatar
    foreigner June 15, 2012 at 10:55 pm #

    Northland10, I do know this all and no, it’s not what I’m claiming.
    I don’t think the BC is fake. Even in 2008 I didn’t. They(Dems) would have
    examined this and not allowed a candidate without checking.
    I think there are other reasons for the secrecy, uncomfortable details
    about the circumstances, his parents or early contacts or whatever.
    But not eligibility.
    But staying with your example … what if that person now
    goes out, gives interviews, pays “experts” to investigate
    and as a result many customers withdraw money from the bank ?
    ———————————————–
    Stanislaw, the point is not whether birthers are stupid and there is
    an opportunity for fun. The point is that it’s bad for the government
    reputation, that it gives a “recommendation” for secrecy in general.
    You want to know whom you vote for, not a party that gives
    avoiding statements about their goals. (and no, I’m not saying
    that any US-party does this, but it’s where this leads to,IMO)
    ——————————————
    G,shouldn’t they make the same CHOICE now and allow inspection,
    talk about the Quartz-settings etc. ?
    ————————————–
    Dr.Conspiracy, why are you so much concerned about the few dozends
    of hardcore-birther and not the millions who are just doubters ?
    And this “nothing Obama releases has any effect on the hard-core birthers”,
    I’ve heard it so often here, it’s just not true.
    ——————————————
    G, I think it may well happen. He just waits for the best moment.
    As he did with the LFBC.

  112. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 15, 2012 at 11:08 pm #

    foreigner: And some birthers suspect him of being involved in the forgery.

    What was forged?

    (Hint: This is kind of a trick question.)

  113. avatar
    foreigner June 15, 2012 at 11:26 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy June 15, 2012 at 10:37 pm Dr. Conspiracy(Quote) #

    > The registrar of vital records is an expert in the forms of certificates
    > and the security features they use.

    and Vogt,Zebest etc are experts in electronic pictures which was used by WH
    you required a certified forensic expert above

    > Birthers suspecting something is a non-statement.

    obots saying something is a non-statement is a non-statement

    > Birthers suspect whatever suits birtherism without regard for
    > the substance of the suspicion.

    same for obots

    that was easy

  114. avatar
    Hawaiiborn June 15, 2012 at 11:37 pm #

    foreigner:

    and Vogt,Zebest etc are experts in electronic pictures which was used by WH
    you required a certified forensic expert above

    No they are not. A used copier sales man believing in Pyramid power, and a woman who was one of 10 authors on three books about an outdated by 7 years, Photoshop program does not make them experts in forensic document examination. Nor are they both even recognized by any court as such, nor the various organizations for Forensic Document examinations are they even licensed.

    Zebest has shown her incompetence concerning Photoshop, and failed right out of the gate, when she didn’t reaize that the scans were not even made by an Adobe program (it was scanned by a native MAC iOS program).

    Vogt’s expertise is as far as how a copy machine works. He has no history in examining images online.

    by birther standards, I’m the ultimate god in Forensic document examinations, since I’ve been using graphics programs since 1991, and Photoshop since version 2.0 (you should have seen the excitement when 3.0 and 4.0 were released, because it was the first versions to introduce layers, and 4.0 was the first version to hit a windows platform), and can remember Freehand and Flash was a Macromedia product (later bought out by Adobe).

  115. avatar
    Stanislaw June 15, 2012 at 11:37 pm #

    foreigner:

    ———————————————–
    Stanislaw, the point is not whether birthers are stupid and there is
    an opportunity for fun. The point is that it’s bad for the government
    reputation, that it gives a “recommendation” for secrecy in general.
    You want to know whom you vote for, not a party that gives
    avoiding statements about their goals. (and no, I’m not saying
    that any US-party does this, but it’s where this leads to,IMO)
    ——————————————

    Your response highlights why birtherism is stupid. There is no secrecy. There are only facts that the birthers disagree with. Birthers wonder where the President is born and when their question is answered they ask it again, hoping to get the “real” answer. You know, an answer that they personally agree with. The problem? No matter how many times birthers ask the same question about the President’s birthplace they will get the same answer, every. Single. Time. No exceptions. Why? Because that’s how reality works. The sooner birthers understand that they aren’t entitled to their own facts the sooner the we stop making fun of them.

  116. avatar
    foreigner June 15, 2012 at 11:40 pm #

    > There is no secrecy.

    ahh, come on.

  117. avatar
    G June 15, 2012 at 11:47 pm #

    I’m trying to grasp your point here and all I see is folly in your silly speculation that is not very well thought through at all. (no surprise there).

    Why would this “person” pay “experts”? What “experts” would they be able to actually find? And if they did any ACTUAL harm to a bank, based on FALSE and SPURRIOUS allegations and an intentional act to deceive and incite irrational panic … then THEY would open THEMSELVES to civil actions by the bank…

    foreigner: Northland10, I do know this all and no, it’s not what I’m claiming.
    I don’t think the BC is fake. Even in 2008 I didn’t. They(Dems) would have
    examined this and not allowed a candidate without checking.
    I think there are other reasons for the secrecy, uncomfortable details
    about the circumstances, his parents or early contacts or whatever.
    But not eligibility.

    But staying with your example … what if that person now goes out, gives interviews, pays “experts” to investigate and as a result many customers withdraw money from the bank ?

  118. avatar
    G June 15, 2012 at 11:49 pm #

    No.

    <blockquote cite="comment-193251"foreigner: G,shouldn’t they make the same CHOICE now and allow inspection,
    talk about the Quartz-settings etc. ?

    Well, good luck with your speculation. Wake me when it happens. Until then, all you’ve got is your runaway imagination to occupy yourself…

    foreigner: G, I think it may well happen. He just waits for the best moment.
    As he did with the LFBC.

  119. avatar
    Stanislaw June 15, 2012 at 11:52 pm #

    foreigner:
    > There is no secrecy.

    ahh, come on.

    Really? Then what secrets are being kept from you? More to the point, how do you know that the things that are being kept from you even exist? They’re secrets!

    All your posts are examples of the stupidity of birtherism. It’s a conspiracy theory that debunks itself by its very existence because it’s so ridiculous.

  120. avatar
    G June 15, 2012 at 11:54 pm #

    Proof of these “millions”? Didn’t think so.

    Any proof that ANY of these “doubters” would vote for Obama “if only”…

    Didn’t think so.

    Face it, you’re just dealing with a bunch of cranky ODS sufferers looking for any cheap and lazy excuse to cast blame and shoot off their mouth. That is all it ever was and it has very little effect except as self-reinforcement amongst those who already are similarly predisposed.

    Net effect beyond the bubble of the irrational tantrum crowd … eh, not much.

    foreigner: Dr.Conspiracy, why are you so much concerned about the few dozends
    of hardcore-birther and not the millions who are just doubters ?

  121. avatar
    linda June 15, 2012 at 11:57 pm #

    Perfection. I knew I liked you.

    Dr. Conspiracy: Birthers suspect whatever suits birtherism without regard for the substance of the suspicion.

  122. avatar
    G June 15, 2012 at 11:58 pm #

    LOL! Yeah right… because all these hard-core Birthers who claim “if only” haven’t just endlessly moved the goal posts when event X comes and passes and their fevered wishes don’t come true…

    The endless posts of long term Birther claims over the years on this site alone already prove otherwise.

    foreigner: And this “nothing Obama releases has any effect on the hard-core birthers”,
    I’ve heard it so often here, it’s just not true.

  123. avatar
    G June 15, 2012 at 11:59 pm #

    Agreed. That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell.

    Stanislaw: All your posts are examples of the stupidity of birtherism. It’s a conspiracy theory that debunks itself by its very existence because it’s so ridiculous.

  124. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 16, 2012 at 12:09 am #

    foreigner: and Vogt,Zebest etc are experts

    Can you name one court (in the U.S.) where they have been allowed to testify as “experts”?

  125. avatar
    linda June 16, 2012 at 12:09 am #

    Please, expound. What possible secret could there be that would have an effect of Obama’s eligibility?

    foreigner:
    > There is no secrecy.

    ahh, come on.

  126. avatar
    Rickey June 16, 2012 at 12:51 am #

    foreigner:

    I don’t think the BC is fake. Even in 2008 I didn’t. They(Dems) would have
    examined this and not allowed a candidate without checking.
    I think there are other reasons for the secrecy, uncomfortable details
    about the circumstances, his parents or early contacts or whatever.

    So you don’t believe that the BC is fake. Therefore:

    1. You believe that Obama was born in Hawaii.
    2. You believe that he was born in a hospital in Honolulu.
    3. You believe that he was delivered by David Sinclair, M.D.
    4. You believe that Barack Obama was his father.
    5. You believe that Stanley Ann Dunham was his mother.

    So what “circumstances” are you referring to?

    What else is there that we need to know about his parents?

    What early contacts, and what do they have to do with anything?

    What secrecy?

  127. avatar
    Lupin June 16, 2012 at 3:04 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I disagree. I stand by my analysis of the John McCain birth certificate and conclusion that it was a fake. While I agree that one cannot prove the authenticity of a document from an image, I believe that one can disprove the authenticity of a document from an image if the fake is poorly done.

    Yes of course; I’d agree with that.

  128. avatar
    The Magic M June 16, 2012 at 3:38 am #

    foreigner: Obots said the same before the longform was released : not needed.
    Why then was it released ? Was it a huge mistake ?

    It’s the textbook definition of “cynical” to first keep demanding something for 3 years and then, when you get your wish, turn that into “why did you comply with my demands, what kind of foul play is this?”.

    And it proves again how deranged and dishonest you are.

    Dr. Conspiracy: While I agree that one cannot prove the authenticity of a document from an image, I believe that one can disprove the authenticity of a document from an image if the fake is poorly done.

    With the additional caveat that this only holds if you can be sure the image is an accurate representation of the document in question.
    Isn’t the SS registration in question because we don’t know if the person who received the document in an FOIA request didn’t alter it after scanning it?

  129. avatar
    Keith June 16, 2012 at 4:25 am #

    john: The “image” is irrelevant to Obots but not to birthers. Why? Because Obama has claimed this is his “real” birth certificate from Hawaii. (Image of the Long Form Birth Certificate.)

    No. You misunderstand. It is not Obama claiming that the image is a picture of his “real” birth certificate. It is the State of Hawai’i that is making that claim, it is the State of Hawai’i that is verifying that the information on the published image is the same as the information on the actual “real” birth certificate that they issued to Obama, and therefore the same as the information on the historical document they have in their possession in the vital records archive.

    What Obama is only saying that the images published in 2008 and in 2011 is an image of the Birth Certificates that Hawai’i provided him. It is Hawai’i that backing the correctness of the information contained on those documents.

    ‘Obots’ understand that it is ‘only’ an image of the actual Long Form Birth Certificate. ‘Obots’ understand that the information on the image is consistent with that on the image of the Standard Form that was published in 2008 and every verification and corroboration that has taken place since.

  130. avatar
    Keith June 16, 2012 at 4:26 am #

    El Diablo Negro: You want answers from one President and not equally of others. Romney BC is just as flawed.

    Moreso… it actually tells the whole world that it is VOID VOID VOID VOID

  131. avatar
    Northland10 June 16, 2012 at 8:57 am #

    foreigner: I don’t think the BC is fake. Even in 2008 I didn’t. They(Dems) would have
    examined this and not allowed a candidate without checking.
    I think there are other reasons for the secrecy, uncomfortable details
    about the circumstances, his parents or early contacts or whatever.
    But not eligibility.

    So, in short, you believe there is dirty laundry and are annoyed because you believe Obama is hiding it. By not letting you see what you think is the dirty laundry, you believe Obama is hiding it. By not letting others have a free-for-all run through his entire private life, you feel Obama is hiding something.

    You may not be officially a “birther” but you are showing the same tendencies. One of the reasons Obama released the original COLB was to knock down the “Mohammed” name claim. So, instead, people started claiming other dirty laundry that Obama was hiding. They will not be satisfied until they find some dirt that the just know is there just like the Birthers will not be satisfied until Obama is frog marched out for being ineligible. This is the world you have chosen. You may not be a Birther but you have taken a path of, no answer is good enough, I believe he is guilty, end of story.

    As for Presidential secrecy, all Presidents have closely guarded “Executive Privilege,” however, the Birther hated Executive Order from the beginning of the term actually reduced the amount of Presidential records that would be kept secret (reversing the previous President’s order).

  132. avatar
    Sef June 16, 2012 at 9:28 am #

    Northland10: One of the reasons Obama released the original COLB was to knock down the “Mohammed” name claim.

    I’m glad that SOMEONE actually has this right. This was the main reason for the COLB release, not place of birth.

  133. avatar
    G June 16, 2012 at 10:23 am #

    Yep. That pretty much describes the worldview perspective and motives of the ODS crowd in a nutshell.

    Northland10: So, in short, you believe there is dirty laundry and are annoyed because you believe Obama is hiding it. By not letting you see what you think is the dirty laundry, you believe Obama is hiding it. By not letting others have a free-for-all run through his entire private life, you feel Obama is hiding something.You may not be officially a “birther” but you are showing the same tendencies. One of the reasons Obama released the original COLB was to knock down the “Mohammed” name claim. So, instead, people started claiming other dirty laundry that Obama was hiding. They will not be satisfied until they find some dirt that the just know is there just like the Birthers will not be satisfied until Obama is frog marched out for being ineligible. This is the world you have chosen. You may not be a Birther but you have taken a path of, no answer is good enough, I believe he is guilty, end of story.As for Presidential secrecy, all Presidents have closely guarded “Executive Privilege,” however, the Birther hated Executive Order from the beginning of the term actually reduced the amount of Presidential records that would be kept secret (reversing the previous President’s order).

  134. avatar
    foreigner June 16, 2012 at 11:10 am #

    no, I’m not much interested in that possible/likely “dirt” ,
    which would be party-political, election related.
    I have no horse in that race.
    I’m interested in open US-policy. And I do
    see that tendency that hiding things whenever possible
    is considered natural and normal and citizens support it here
    and attack people who question that. That does surprise me a bit.
    You have an election soon, what do you know about the
    goals of the new government ? The next budgets, debt policy,
    global peace, nuclear treaties and agreements with Russia,China
    possible war with Iran,Syria ? They “needn’t” tell you …

  135. avatar
    Arthur June 16, 2012 at 11:18 am #

    foreigner: no, I’m not much interested in that possible/likely “dirt” ,which would be party-political, election related.I have no horse in that race.I’m interested in open US-policy. And I dosee that tendency that hiding things whenever possibleis considered natural and normal and citizens support it hereand attack people who question that. That does surprise me a bit.You have an election soon, what do you know about thegoals of the new government ? The next budgets, debt policy,global peace, nuclear treaties and agreements with Russia,Chinapossible war with Iran,Syria ? They “needn’t” tell you …

    Love to respond, but this is powerfully off-topic.

  136. avatar
    Majority Will June 16, 2012 at 11:26 am #

    Ignore the troll.

  137. avatar
    JPotter June 16, 2012 at 11:41 am #

    Northland10: Using the homicide analogy, the Birthers are trying to claim somebody committed a homicide yet, not only are they missing a dead person, they have no missing person and they do not even know of any victim. They are just positive that Obama has committed this non-existent crime and he should prove he did not commit the non-existent crime.

    Sounds like Minority Report! With a few adjustments …. biased imagineers in place of isolated pre-cogs, and a whole lot more of ’em!

  138. avatar
    Northland10 June 16, 2012 at 12:39 pm #

    foreigner: And I do
    see that tendency that hiding things whenever possible
    is considered natural and normal and citizens support it here
    and attack people who question that

    If you take a trip here to FEMA Camp 14, we will show you all of our secrets and how, Obama’s handlers, the “International Financiers,” the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Banco Ambrosia, MI-5, and the shadowy New Coke Alliance are using HAARP to control the minds of Americans to accept their plans for world domination (and get even for the panning of the new drink recipe, which is tons of fun with Mentos).

    If you can’t afford the trip to the American interior, I hear they may be an affiliated organization office located in some basement in New York City.

    P.S. They will also teach you the secrets of these strange computers things that, unlike a typewriter, do not need a carriage return at the end of every line.

  139. avatar
    G June 16, 2012 at 1:52 pm #

    By “attack” you simply mean “ask you to PROVE” the fantasy allegations that you spew. Which you can’t and you get cranky…because you’ve got nothing except your idle speculation to go off of…doesn’t count worth squat.

    Folks like you just love to lazily shoot off your mouth and pull stuff out of your @ss without having to actually think it through or have actual knowledge or evidence of anything. You live in an entire fantasy world within your own mind and see secrets and conspiracies in the mundane. You merely make mountains out of molehills all the time.

    There is a term for folks like you: Piss pants.

    foreigner: And I do see that tendency that hiding things whenever possible is considered natural and normal and citizens support it here and attack people who question that. That does surprise me a bit.

  140. avatar
    foreigner June 16, 2012 at 2:37 pm #

    no, I mean these usual insults,ridiculing here
    (you are so funny) to those who you perceive as birthers

  141. avatar
    linda June 16, 2012 at 3:14 pm #

    Campaigns and party platforms can address those issues. Birth certificates, school records, Selective Service and Social Security records do not.

    foreigner: You have an election soon, what do you know about the
    goals of the new government ? The next budgets, debt policy,
    global peace, nuclear treaties and agreements with Russia,China
    possible war with Iran,Syria ? They “needn’t” tell you …

  142. avatar
    linda June 16, 2012 at 3:21 pm #

    Then tell us, since you seem to know, what would satisfy the hard-core birthers? Obviously, birth certificates and Hawaii’s verification of them doesn’t. What would they accept? If there is something, is it standard operating procedure or just something special they want from Obama?

    foreigner: And this “nothing Obama releases has any effect on the hard-core birthers”,
    I’ve heard it so often here, it’s just not true.

  143. avatar
    G June 16, 2012 at 3:41 pm #

    Those who come across as ridiculous open themselves up to ridicule.

    Simple cause and effect at work. *duh*

    As the old saying goes, if you don’t want to receive ridicule, then DON’T act ridiculous. If you say crazy things, people will both perceive and treat you as crazy. If you can’t back up your statements with credible evidence, you will be deemed a fool and rife for mocking.

    Take some personal responsibility for your own failures instead of merely crying because others are laughing at your own repeatedly demonstrated inadequacies and failings.

    foreigner: no, I mean these usual insults,ridiculing here(you are so funny) to those who you perceive as birthers

  144. avatar
    Stanislaw June 16, 2012 at 4:17 pm #

    foreigner:
    no, I mean these usual insults,ridiculing here
    (you are so funny) to those who you perceive as birthers

    Pointing out the weaknesses in your arguments isn’t necessarily ridicule. If you think it is then your arguments must be a lot weaker than any of us thought.

    It may help to learn some basic capitalization and punctuation as well. Nothing makes a weak argument even weaker than the inability to understand basic grammar.

  145. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny June 16, 2012 at 4:45 pm #

    foreigner:
    no, I mean these usual insults,ridiculing here
    (you are so funny) to those who you perceive as birthers

    Hm, this convinces me foreigner is the same troll who recently pos(t)ed as a German on the Fogbow.

  146. avatar
    foreigner June 16, 2012 at 5:11 pm #

    linda, yes(party program vs. personal records) .
    But the arguments that I find here seem to apply
    (if they needn’t say, they don’t)
    thinking at Hitler’s planned war with Russia or Bush and Iraq
    ——————-
    I think the hardcore birthers want to inspect the microfilm.
    I think I saw it sometimes asked in videos or that they were asked what
    would satisfy them.
    “nothing has any effect” was carelessly formulated (nothing,any)
    so it was logically wrong. Dr.C probably meant there is _little_ effect.
    But take e.g. the LFBC, if whitehouse had taken a JPG and not an optimized
    pdf (–> _less_ info) Or if they had explained how the pdf was made
    I think that would have been better.
    Then the hardcore birthers would probably have concentrated on the
    naturally born issue earlier and the cold case posse would not have happened.
    ———————

  147. avatar
    Northland10 June 16, 2012 at 5:20 pm #

    Paul Pieniezny: Hm, this convinces me foreigner is the same troll who recently pos(t)ed as a German on the Fogbow.

    And gsgs at John Woodman’s Obamabirthbook.com

  148. avatar
    JD Reed June 16, 2012 at 5:49 pm #

    Foreigner, I don’t expect you to answer, because birthers never do provide a satisfactory answer to this, but what is Mr. Obama “hiding” that his predecessors made public? Birth certificate? He’s the only one to provide not just one, but two. You might reject the documents he’s provided, but the best evidence goes overwhelmingly against you. Grade transcripts? No predecessor ever unveiled his. GW Bush’s Yale transcript was outed by the New Yorker magazine in Nov. ’99, against his will and to his consternation.
    Obama’s Illinois legislative record? That’s a ridiculous notion, although I know you object to birthers being ridiculed. Records of what Sen. Obama did as a state lawmaker are just as open as those of anyone else who served at the same time.
    Copies of the Harvard Law Review when he was its president? Even more ridiculous. This journal had thousands of subscribers across the country, not only academic and public law libraries, but private law offices. Do you assert that someone went around collecting all copies of that year’s issues?
    Evidence that Obama traveled to Pakistan when a travel ban was in effect barring American tourists? I bring this up because some birthers still subscribe to it. Since the evidence in this, too, is overwhelmingly against them, those who assert this also legitimately earn all the ridicule that flows their way. Ditto for those who assert that on his first day on the job, the new president in 2009 issued an executive order on presidential recotds to seal his own personal records.

    Since multitudes of birthers have subscribed, and still do so, to these and other fantasies, is it any wonder that the ridicule rains down on the entire community? So, avoiding all generalities, please answer the question at the outside of this post.

  149. avatar
    JD Reed June 16, 2012 at 5:51 pm #

    Foreigner, at the end I meant outset, not outside. My fingers typed what they thought they heard my brain saying.

  150. avatar
    foreigner June 16, 2012 at 6:16 pm #

    JDReed,I don’t know what predecessors did hide.Or how popular
    hiding is in US-politics.I found it a bit strange. It’s more in the news
    now than it was with the predecessors. I’d like to see Obama’s
    thesis or papers. I’ll have to research a bit more and can maybe
    reply tomorrow in greater detail

    You often find it in these discussions that Obama were hiding records
    there are special webpages about it etc. I don’t remember we saw
    such with other presidents before.

  151. avatar
    JD Reed June 16, 2012 at 6:53 pm #

    Foreigner, Obama’s predecessors didn’t “hide” anything. Hardly anyone was interested in those details that birthers now assert is a moral, if not legal, obligation, for the incumbent president to provide. In the past we took what information was provided and made judgements based on that. No one that I’m aware of publlicly screamed that they had any kind of right to know more. We knew that the first George Bush and Bill Clinton were book-smart because both were Phi Beta Kappas in college. And Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar to boot. We knew that the second George Bush was not all that sterling a student even before his Yale grades were leaked.
    We knew Ronald Reagan was not a standout student, either, by his own admission. He was also not as intellectually curious as some of his successors, as evidenced by some of the historical misstatements that he made publicly.
    Jimmy Carter was book-smart as evidenced by his rank in the top 10th of his naval academy graduating class. Gerald Ford was academically smarter than his image portrayed, as evidenced by his finishing in the top quarter of an elite law school, Yale. Nixon was also book-smart, finishing third in his Duke Law School graduating class, We won’t mention his character.

    What I’m saying is we get enough information to reasonably judge the intellectual caliber of those candidates.

    What thesis or what papers of Obama? I think the best evidence is that there was no Columbia University thesis. Nobody demanded any thesis or papers from a previous president, so why suddenly from this one? What is so different?

    BTW,.you can look at the bachelor’s thesis of one previous president, John F. Kennedy. That’s because his was published as a book, Why England Slept.

  152. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 16, 2012 at 7:10 pm #

    foreigner: I’d like to see Obama’s
    thesis or papers.

    Why?

    What did you find out when you read George Bush and Bill Clinton’s papers? You were as curious about them…..weren’t you?

  153. avatar
    Majority Will June 16, 2012 at 7:16 pm #

    JD Reed:
    Foreigner, Obama’s predecessors didn’t “hide” anything. Hardly anyone was interested in those details that birthers now assert is a moral, if not legal, obligation, for the incumbent president to provide. In the past we took what information was provided and made judgements based on that. No one that I’m aware of publlicly screamed that they had any kind of right to know more. We knew that the first George Bush and Bill Clinton were book-smart because both were Phi Beta Kappas in college. And Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar to boot. We knew that the second George Bush was not all that sterling a student even before his Yale grades were leaked.
    We knew Ronald Reagan was not a standout student, either, by his own admission. He was also not as intellectually curious as some of his successors, as evidenced by some of the historical misstatements that he made publicly.
    Jimmy Carter was book-smart as evidenced by his rank in the top 10th of his naval academy graduating class. Gerald Ford was academically smarter than his image portrayed, as evidenced by his finishing in the top quarter of an elite law school, Yale. Nixon was also book-smart, finishing third in his Duke Law School graduating class, We won’t mention his character.

    What I’m saying is we get enough informationto reasonably judge the intellectual caliber of those candidates.

    What thesis or what papers of Obama? I think the best evidence is that there was no Columbia University thesis. Nobody demanded any thesis or papers from a previous president, so why suddenly from this one? What is so different?

    BTW,.you can look at the bachelor’s thesis of one previous president, John F. Kennedy. That’s because his was published as a book, Why England Slept.

    All of that’s nothing compared to Cheney’s Secret Safe:
    http://weeklyworldnews.com/politics/5553/secrets-of-cheneys-safe-revealed

  154. avatar
    jayHG June 16, 2012 at 9:12 pm #

    Foreigner is only….

  155. avatar
    Thrifty June 16, 2012 at 9:16 pm #

    Why? What does that have to do with eligibility? Or are you honestly in the academic subject matter? If that’s it, I’m sure you could find another source that addressed the subject matter in his thesis.

    foreigner: JDReed,I don’t know what predecessors did hide.Or how popular
    hiding is in US-politics.I found it a bit strange. It’s more in the news
    now than it was with the predecessors. I’d like to see Obama’s
    thesis or papers. I’ll have to research a bit more and can maybe
    reply tomorrow in greater detail

  156. avatar
    jayHG June 16, 2012 at 10:22 pm #

    Orly, damn iPad!

  157. avatar
    foreigner June 17, 2012 at 1:16 am #

    every time you say “why”, I say “why not”.
    Obama’s papers, thesis, don’t exist ? – sorry, I thought there were some.
    It’s interesting because it may tell us how he thinks, how he
    would decide. (he won’t tell us, and -before you ask–
    yes, other polititians either,so he needn’t be worse)
    What would he do in a Cuba-1962-like crisis, we don’t know.
    How likely is he to keep promises, what’s his priorities,
    i.e. wrt. shortterm success vs. longterm success ?
    I think they should be eager to provide such info, so I’m
    surprised why you even ask “why”. Is it a good strategy
    to keep things secret whenever you can ?
    Now with Obama it’s different because of that
    (IMO outdated) article about eligibility in your constitution.
    We know, there is a big group in USA (so-called birthers)
    who questions this and is seeking for all kinds of early Obama records.
    And because you dislike them you don’t want them to
    get the info and “celebrate” whenever they fail to get
    their info. But you still think there is nothing to hide,
    this looks a bit contradictious to me.

  158. avatar
    linda June 17, 2012 at 1:43 am #

    First, I appreciate your answer, thanks. Second, I do not believe it is ever a good idea to bring the big “H” into the discussion.

    In hindsight ONLY, I do agree Obama may have been better served to have the administration explain the details of how the LFBC was put online. At the time, it was to satisfy those who said where is the hospital name, where is the doctor’s signature that delivered him etc. A certain part of “birferstan” would refuse to accept the information, no matter what. Those are the only people who want to see the microfilm, and as with everything else that has become public, they would refute that, too. For Obama, it is a lose-lose situation.

    However it started, personal records are private here. Obama has released far more private information than any other sitting president, yet for some, it is never enough. They would not vote for Obama anyway, nothing he could release would change that.

    This site focuses on Obama eligibility, not his policies. One does not have to like, approve or vote for him in order to realize he is eligible. The same cannot be said for the birther crowd.

    foreigner: linda, yes(party program vs. personal records) .
    But the arguments that I find here seem to apply
    (if they needn’t say, they don’t)
    thinking at Hitler’s planned war with Russia or Bush and Iraq

  159. avatar
    foreigner June 17, 2012 at 1:55 am #

    JDReed,

    > What thesis or what papers of Obama? I think the best evidence is that
    > there was no Columbia University thesis.

    why is it not known ?

    > Nobody demanded any thesis or papers from a previous president,
    > so why suddenly from this one?
    > What is so different?

    things have changed. Now we have big internet with lots of info,
    so missing info is more strange than it was before.
    Such statements with “Nobody” in it are usually wrong.

    > What I’m saying is we get enough information to reasonably judge
    > the intellectual caliber of those candidates.

    but what if we could get easily additional information ?
    You don’t want it, it should be forbidden ? What’s “enough” ?

    >Obama’s predecessors didn’t “hide” anything,

    but Obama does/did hide something (“we have better things to do”)
    and you compared him with his predecessors ?!

    > I don’t expect you to answer, because birthers never…

    I usually did answer, except some comments without content or
    people with a history of silly comments.
    What do you think, qualifies me as “birther”
    Again you use that “never” which makes it easy to show counterexamples …

    > what is Mr. Obama “hiding” that his predecessors made public

    you already mentioned:
    Birth certificate,Grade transcripts,Obama’s Illinois legislative record,
    Harvard Law Review,traveled to Pakistan,seal his own personal records.
    His Indonesia stay,College records,school records,Kindergarten records…
    are additional things that you quickly find in internet. I haven’t researched
    and compared yet with predecessors (is there a good source for this ?)

    > Birth certificate? He’s the only one to provide not just one, but two

    funny that you mention this.He only reluctantly provided them after much
    pressure. So he did hide them until they were released, agreed ?

    > ridicule

    I think it’s being exaggerated. It’s the standard here when you
    meet perceived birthers. Kills all reasonable discussion
    before it even starts to make ridiculous statements.

  160. avatar
    nbc June 17, 2012 at 2:06 am #

    foreigner: Kills all reasonable discussion
    before it even starts to make ridiculous statements.

    So far I have not seen any reasonable discussion from you. For instance, you state that he reluctantly provided it even though he released it in 2007. When foolish people claimed that it was fake, he rightly ignored them as the Department of Hawaii had certified and verified his native birth.
    When poor Donald fell for the Birther myth, Obama provided the long form which of course fully supported the COLB information. But even that did not stop the foolish birthers.

    You claim that Obama was reluctant but he was proactive in providing the relevant data. And eventually he even petitioned the DOH of Hawaii to release a certified copy of his long form, even though the DOH no longer provided such information.

    Such foolishness and you claim that this is somehow a reasonable discussion when it is based on so much ignorance…

  161. avatar
    linda June 17, 2012 at 2:08 am #

    No, no serving president, or candidate for president, has ever released that information, at least not so far as I know or have been able to find. There have been bits and pieces leaked, here and there, but no, candidates and presidents do not, have not, released that kind of information. Obama is not “hiding” anything that isn’t protected likewise for ordinary citizens.

    foreigner: Birth certificate,Grade transcripts,Obama’s Illinois legislative record,
    Harvard Law Review,traveled to Pakistan,seal his own personal records.
    His Indonesia stay,College records,school records,Kindergarten records…
    are additional things that you quickly find in internet. I haven’t researched
    and compared yet with predecessors (is there a good source for this ?)

  162. avatar
    nbc June 17, 2012 at 2:10 am #

    foreigner: I’d like to see Obama’s
    thesis or papers.

    Good for you. But why should anyone take your interests seriously enough to provide you with ever more data, that will only serve to create further myths about our President?

    And why should a President, any President, release such data? Just because you are curious? Surely you must understand how slinging dirt and swift boating have becoming standard practices, and presently the Republican party and the Tea party have chosen to not just spread rumors but also lie. They are relying on the ignorance of the voter to get away with it. And many supporters apparently love being lied to… Sometimes ignorance and data which support your ignorance are preferred.

    Sadly enough these kind of behaviors appear to be correlated with being ‘conservative’. Evolution can play nasty tricks…

  163. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 17, 2012 at 2:29 am #

    foreigner: Birth certificate,Grade transcripts,Obama’s Illinois legislative record,
    Harvard Law Review,traveled to Pakistan,seal his own personal records.
    His Indonesia stay,College records,school records,Kindergarten records…
    are additional things that you quickly find in internet. I haven’t researched
    and compared yet with predecessors (is there a good source for this ?)

    This is crazy…..real crazy.

    He’s released his birth certificate….twice.
    It was okay to travel to Pakistan as an American citizen when he did.
    Harvard Law Review? It is published eight times a year and is available on-line.
    Kindergarten records: Hello?

    Yes indeed, you “haven’t researched” anything. That is painfully obvious.

  164. avatar
    aarrgghh June 17, 2012 at 2:34 am #

    foreigner: “… kindergarten records …”

    of all the demands birfers keep insisting from the usurper, you numbnuts thoroughly discredit yourselves every. single. time. when you demand the kiddie stuff.

  165. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 17, 2012 at 2:38 am #

    foreigner: What would he do in a Cuba-1962-like crisis

    Do you really think that something written by a person when they were barely out of their teens would provide you with insights into how they would respond to something like the Cuban missile crisis when he was thirty years older? Seriously?

  166. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 17, 2012 at 2:41 am #

    aarrgghh:
    of all the demands birfers keep insisting from the usurper, you numbnuts thoroughly discredit yourselves every. single. time. when you demand the kiddie stuff.

    We certainly wouldn’t want to elect someone who had a problem with “nap time” or who pulled someone’s pig tails.

  167. avatar
    linda June 17, 2012 at 2:46 am #

    I beg to differ. Passing out the graham crackers and milk is an opportunity show real leadership skills. : )

    CarlOrcas: We certainly wouldn’t want to elect someone who had a problem with “nap time” or who pulled someone’s pig tails.

  168. avatar
    G June 17, 2012 at 4:11 am #

    Um, hello….

    You don’t need to search deep into the man’s past to try to guess how he *MIGHT* handle the various duties and challenges of “being President”, when ALL you have to do is look at what he has already done *AS* President over these past 3.5 years.

    What someone wrote or thought when they were just a young adult and starting out in life compared to what they’ve accomplished and learned in the decades since are often VERY different things. There is very little true relevance to someone’s decades-old past to what they know and how they operate today.

    *duh*

    Want to know how he handles difficult internation crisis situations? Well, then look no further than the ballsy and determined call to kill Bin Laden in Pakistan and his willingness to use drone strikes in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen to kill terrorists. Or look at his willingness to give the go ahead to tackle piracy in the Arabian penninsula. Those are all difficult, ballsy and aggressive calls. Look at his support for the Libyan uprising and how he got the international community and local forces to handle most of the effort, with very little relative US expense involved and no loss of US lives. Look at how he’s kept the warhawks at bay, while pursuing ever increasingly stringent sanctions against Iran and how his administration has been trying to push for international pressure on Syria.

    THOSE are all REAL WORLD and CURRENT examples of how he behaves in such matters. Not some imagined paper he might or might not have written while just a college kid with very little real world experience behind him.

    *DUH*

    If you want to know his priorities, then just pay attention to his speeches and administrations actions.

    If you want to know how good he is at carrying through with campaign promises (something that has always been quite difficult for EVERY president), then there are detailed tracking reports on such things that are easy to find, with only seconds of searching on the web.

    Here:

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/

    They have maintained an up-to-date tracking of over 500 of his campaign promises since he took office.

    From the record, he’s gotten quite a bit accomplished. Which is particularly impresive, considering that he’s got an extremely hostile opposition party that has served to try to block just about everything they can on him via stalling in Congress or watering down legislation to the point of absurdity. Also, considering that most of his campaign promises were made BEFORE the great economic collapse of late 2008, it is quite impressive to see how much he’s actually gotten done from his original list, considering the completely changed dynamic and set of priorities in the post economic collapse world:

    Promise Kept 184 (36%)
    Compromise 61 (12%)
    Promise Broken 71 (14%)
    Stalled 61 (12%)
    In the Works 129 (25%)
    Not yet rated 2 (0%)

    So there’s reality for you. And you wonder why you get ridiculed. Because your excuses and statements come across as completely lazy, petty, silly, quite ignorant and fairly irrelevant.

    foreigner: What would he do in a Cuba-1962-like crisis, we don’t know.
    How likely is he to keep promises, what’s his priorities,
    i.e. wrt. shortterm success vs. longterm success ?

  169. avatar
    foreigner June 17, 2012 at 4:42 am #

    nbc, he could have done all that immediately, right ?
    Instead of all these dismissing lawsuits.
    That would have saved the Courts and lawyers,
    (which “have more important things to do”) a lot of trouble
    ————————————–
    Linda, so include your other presidents as well in my
    Vorwurf of secrecy
    —————————————–
    nbc, those “why” were already answered before by “why not”
    —————————————-
    CarlOrcas, aarrgh,you reply to a quote from me, what I found.
    I’m not so much interested in his Kindergarten, but some people
    apparently are. What’s the problem ? I won’t call them numbnuts
    for that, even if I knew what that means.
    The strange thing IMO is, that you , somehow naturally,
    think it should be kept secret. Is this US-specific, how is
    it in other countries ?
    ——————————————–

  170. avatar
    Majority Will June 17, 2012 at 4:47 am #

    How is this pathetic troll in any way on topic?

    Here’s a reminder:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/06/wheres-the-expert-certificate/

  171. avatar
    nbc June 17, 2012 at 5:22 am #

    foreigner: nbc, he could have done all that immediately, right ?
    Instead of all these dismissing lawsuits.

    He did do it immediately. As to the lawsuits, he was not directly involved in most of them, so why should he be involved.

    You still appear to be unwilling to admit that he provided all the necessary information well before the elections.

    Fool, you sound a lot like gsgs on thefogbow. Sad really… All that ignorance.

  172. avatar
    nbc June 17, 2012 at 5:25 am #

    foreigner: nbc, those “why” were already answered before by “why not”

    That’s not an answer, poor foreigner. Logic, and evidence are not your strongest points either…

    So what redeeming qualities do you have to offer? You ignore, pretend, assert but fail to provide much of any reasoned or logical argument.

    A birther by any reasonable standard.

  173. avatar
    nbc June 17, 2012 at 5:26 am #

    foreigner: Is it a good strategy
    to keep things secret whenever you can ?

    Yes. Especially when the requests are irrelevant, foolish and ill informed.

  174. avatar
    Lupin June 17, 2012 at 5:32 am #

    foreigner: The strange thing IMO is, that you , somehow naturally,
    think it should be kept secret. Is this US-specific, how is
    it in other countries ?

    To this Frenchman, you don’t really sound like a “foreigner” but more like a crazy American. I’d be curious to know if our host (Doc) could verify that you post from a foreign IP or not…

    In any event, the birther delusion does seem unique to the US or (I’m ashamed to say) some third-world countries where tribalism and religious fanaticism play a greater part in selecting leaders than in modern democracies.

    Our last president (M Sarkozy) was from a Jewish Hungarian family (from what I gather; I never researched the issue) and although he was very vocally opposed, I don’t recall any of his opponents coming up with delusional and bigoted theories comparable to what you espouse.

  175. avatar
    Scientist June 17, 2012 at 6:05 am #

    foreigner is 100% right. Candidates should not hide anything. I mean that absolutely. They should campaign in the nude so we can see all their flaws. This clothing cover-up needs to end right now. What is Obama hiding-is he really a woman or is he actually obese and just pretending to be thin? And Romney’s Mormon underwear, what’s with that? Sounds fishy to me. Off with it!! My proposal will take care of the birthers forever, because once candidates strip down to their birthday suits there can be no doubt that Giselle Bundchen will win in a landslide and you can bet no one will ask for her birth certificate (she would have no pocket to keep it in anyway).

  176. avatar
    foreigner June 17, 2012 at 7:05 am #

    nbc,
    yes, gsgs at fogbow, (not yes to “fool”)
    usually I’d consider a forum better than a blog
    to discuss, but they restricted my access and the features.
    People are still invited to post there and I’ll likely answer,
    if not it becomes too many or too lengthy.
    ———-
    with “immediately” I mean the same year or such.
    Not 2.5 years after the election.
    ——-
    “necessary”,
    necessary for success , obviously yes, he is president.
    Legally necessary , also yes , the process was not disputed.
    Necessary to prevail in Courts, to get on the 2012 ballots,
    probably, so far it apparently was necessary.
    Necessary to convince the nation he was born in Hawaii,
    partially, 90% or such , but he could have done better.
    ———
    and prove your accusations instead of just repeating them
    ——–
    no matter how “foolish” the requests are, in your opinion,
    these people are still voters and Obama seeks for their votes.
    ————————————————————–
    lupin, just check my profile and webpages at fogbow
    http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=7825
    afair, Sarcozy was open, even eager, to talk about his
    private life.
    Usually people here enjoy it to show their kindergarten pics
    (but nobody wants to see them, lol)
    ========================================
    now, the next thing will be DNA. It’s becoming cheap …
    Will they show it ? Can they prevent it from becoming public ?
    (relatives,”stolen cells”,lost hairs etc.)

  177. avatar
    Scientist June 17, 2012 at 7:27 am #

    foreigner: Sarcozy was open, even eager, to talk about his
    private life.

    Where was his birth certificate? His kindergarten records? Hmm, Anyway, in case you missed the news, Sarkozy lost. So maybe he is not a good model for politicians who want to get re-elected….

  178. avatar
    Stanislaw June 17, 2012 at 10:41 am #

    foreigner:

    you already mentioned:
    Birth certificate,Grade transcripts,Obama’s Illinois legislative record,
    Harvard Law Review,traveled to Pakistan,seal his own personal records.
    His Indonesia stay,College records,school records,Kindergarten records…
    are additional things that you quickly find in internet. I haven’t researched
    and compared yet with predecessors (is there a good source for this ?)

    No, there’s no good source for that because most what you ask for out of “curiosity” was never released by any other President. Have you ever seen George Bush’s kindergarten records? How about Bill Clinton’s “personal records?” What about Mitt Romney’s travels abroad? Didn’t think so.

    What you’re doing is a very obvious, transparent attempt to create a double standard by pretending that the current President is “hiding something” while failing to mention that no other President has ever released any of the things you demand from this current President. You just said yourself that you haven’t research any of the above information about his predecessors. Again, what makes the current President so different. Surely it’s not because of the color of his…

    Feel free to keep pretending that you’re just asking questions but the rest of us know that you’re a birther, and we can all see right through your concern trolling.

  179. avatar
    Majority Will June 17, 2012 at 10:53 am #

    Stanislaw: Feel free to keep pretending that you’re just asking questions but the rest of us know that you’re a birther, and we can all see right through your concern trolling.

    Aren’t you getting a feeling of déj vu?

    Stanislaw June 9, 2011 at 6:20 pm #

    foreigner:
    but then you had ~30% of Americans who believed Obama was not born
    in the USA, and politicians are seeking for voters, so Obama finally
    had to release the BC despite the embarrassing things with his father’s birthday,
    divorce etc.

    Wait, so now Obama didn’t “release” the long-form copy of his birth certificate sooner because…he was embarrassed by his parents’ divorce? What the Hell?

    If there was a way for a statement to make less than no sense, you just did it. What does a birth certificate have to do with his divorce? Your arguments (and I use that word as loosely as possible) aren’t really doing much to help the cause of birtherism.

    (http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/06/long-form-artifacts-vanish-at-higher-resolution/#comment-121577)

  180. avatar
    Stanislaw June 17, 2012 at 11:11 am #

    Majority Will: Aren’t you getting a feeling of déj vu?

    Yes I am…but that may be because every birther makes the same failed, illogical arguments over and over again while not realizing that the rest of us are smarter than they are I guess Orl—I mean “foreigner” is no different.

  181. avatar
    JPotter June 17, 2012 at 11:11 am #

    Scientist: (she would have no pocket to keep it in anyway).

    Hear, hear, Scientist! Don’t forget the new round required in all debates: cavity searches. And the key part of FEC filing, a full slate of genetic testing. The American people demand to know where their candidates came from, and where they’re going!

  182. avatar
    JPotter June 17, 2012 at 11:22 am #

    foreigner: now, the next thing will be DNA. It’s becoming cheap …
    Will they show it ? Can they prevent it from becoming public ?

    Geeez …. I swear I hadn’t read that when I posted re: DNA above.

  183. avatar
    JPotter June 17, 2012 at 11:28 am #

    foreigner: Instead of all these dismissing lawsuits.
    That would have saved the Courts and lawyers,
    (which “have more important things to do”) a lot of trouble

    Really? Blaming frivolous lawsuits on the target? That they are all dismissed should indicate their merit to you. Again, birthers marching backwards.

  184. avatar
    Thrifty June 17, 2012 at 11:44 am #

    President Obama seeks votes. He hopes to get as many votes as he can, and certainly more than his Republican rival Mitt Romney. However, he know that the vote will not be unanimous or even close to unanimous. The last unanimous presidential election we had was in 1792, George Washington’s 2nd term. Even then it was only unanimous because Washington was running unopposed.

    The point is that Barack Obama (Mitt Romney as well) realize that there are just some people who won’t vote for them. Each candidate realizes that certain states are a mortal lock for their opponent. Sure they WANT those states, but they’re realists. Barack Obama is smart enough to know that Birthers are the kinds of people who aren’t going to vote for him anyway, so he’s not gonna bend over backwards for their votes. He’s just gonna toss up his hands and say “I guess I don’t get their votes, let’s go for the battleground states and the independent voters who could be convinced to vote for me but aren’t committed to it yet”.

    foreigner: no matter how “foolish” the requests are, in your opinion,
    these people are still voters and Obama seeks for their votes.

  185. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 17, 2012 at 12:34 pm #

    foreigner: CarlOrcas, aarrgh,you reply to a quote from me, what I found.
    I’m not so much interested in his Kindergarten, but some people
    apparently are. What’s the problem ? I won’t call them numbnuts
    for that, even if I knew what that means.
    The strange thing IMO is, that you , somehow naturally,
    think it should be kept secret. Is this US-specific, how is
    it in other countries ?

    Two things. If you really don’t know what a word means just search for it. In Google or Bing. Just type “define: numbnuts”.

    And I never said his records should be kept secret. Did I?

  186. avatar
    foreigner June 17, 2012 at 12:38 pm #

    Stanislaw,
    if other presidents had few transparency that’s also not good.
    I’m not in it for the usual Dem vs. Rep reason.
    But no reason to continue that practice. With internet it
    becomes more and more difficult to hide things anyway.
    Now that I have your expertise that I’m a birther, that
    might help me to not get banned from the birther-forums
    (which I haven’t yet found)
    ——————————————–
    Thrifty,
    there’s a great variety of birthers. Assuming they
    would never vote for Obama anyway seems very unlikely to me
    and contradictory the usual statistics and polls.

  187. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 17, 2012 at 12:47 pm #

    foreigner: there’s a great variety of birthers. Assuming they
    would never vote for Obama anyway seems very unlikely to me
    and contradictory the usual statistics and polls.

    Where do you live? What “statistics and polls” are you seeing that indicate birthers might vote for Obama?

  188. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 17, 2012 at 1:06 pm #

    foreigner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories#Opinion_surveys

    Repeat questions:

    Where do you live? What “statistics and polls” are you seeing that indicate birthers might vote for Obama?

  189. avatar
    Stanislaw June 17, 2012 at 1:59 pm #

    foreigner:
    Stanislaw,
    if other presidents had few transparency that’s also not good.
    I’m not in it for the usual Dem vs. Rep reason.
    But no reason to continue that practice.

    A lot of what you consider a lack of transparency has a more reasonable explanation that doesn’t involve a lot of what birthers assume to be true. Let’s take the President’s kindergarten records, for example.

    Barack Obama was born in 1961. He would have been in kindergarten in the mid to late 1960s. There’s a pretty good chance that those kindergarten records that birthers always mention may not even be available anymore. Think about it: why would a school keep records of people who attended 40 or 45 years ago? What purpose would it serve? A school will probably see thousands of students over the course of its existence. Should we expect them to keep detailed records of every single student who ever attended? And to keep those records for four or five decades just in case one of those students becomes President?

    More importantly, the President is 51 years old. What would kindergarten records from the 1960s tell us about someone 40 years later? Even if that school did have his records they wouldn’t be relevant to anything even remotely related to citizenship or his policies as President.

  190. avatar
    Scientist June 17, 2012 at 2:07 pm #

    foreigner: there’s a great variety of birthers. Assuming they
    would never vote for Obama anyway seems very unlikely to me
    and contradictory the usual statistics and polls.

    As people here know, I have spent the last 4 years searching for the elusive “pro-Obama birther” and have never found one. They are as chimerical as the people born abroad with Hawaiian birth certifcates showing birth in Hawaii. I have offered a cash reward for the person who identifies one. But you will have to provide a name and contact info to collect. So-name and contact info, please. Come on…

  191. avatar
    Scientist June 17, 2012 at 2:11 pm #

    Stanislaw: Have you ever seen George Bush’s kindergarten records?

    No records? Too bad, because Kindergarten was the best 5 years of W’s life.

    I have seen Bill Clinton’s Kindergarten records, though: “Brightest student in the class. Wish he would focus more on class activities and less on lifting little Susie’s skirt.”

  192. avatar
    nbc June 17, 2012 at 2:15 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Where do you live? What “statistics and polls” are you seeing that indicate birthers might vote for Obama?

    None… But let’s not confuse our poor ‘foreigner’. Logic and reason are not his strongest suits.

  193. avatar
    nbc June 17, 2012 at 2:16 pm #

    foreigner: where are the (certified) obot-experts ?

    DOH of Hawaii…

    Ouch…

  194. avatar
    nbc June 17, 2012 at 2:20 pm #

    foreigner: to dismiss the Court hearings

    So far they have been quite effective in dismissing the court hearings. That some foolish people continue to waste legal resources hardly means that the White House is to be blamed. They presented the COLB, they presented the long form, and they presented a verification by the DOH of Hawaii.

    Yet, some people, driven by other motives than the truth, have continued to harass the President using court challenges.

    One cannot reason with fools really. They will just move the goal posts and continue.

    The good news is that more and more lawsuits have resulted in a rich collection of precedential rulings, indicating that by any legal and reasonable standard, the President is indeed a natural born citizen.

    And yet… Some people still believe in some mythical coverup…

    One cannot really argue with people who lack in reason and logic and who are driven by fear and hatred.

    But one can expose their ignorance and ridicule their foolishness.

  195. avatar
    nbc June 17, 2012 at 2:22 pm #

    Stanislaw: I’m not in it for the usual Dem vs. Rep reason.

    So what is the reason you are ‘in it’? Certainly not for logic or reason… Why would someone be so committed to expose the depth and breadth of their ignorance in a public forum…

  196. avatar
    nbc June 17, 2012 at 2:23 pm #

    foreigner: Now that I have your expertise that I’m a birther, that
    might help me to not get banned from the birther-forums
    (which I haven’t yet found)

    Poor researching skills as well. Fascinating…