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How 2 make a long form PDF

Given the independent verifications that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii, there has never been any sense to the birther claims that Obama’s long form birth certificate PDF was the creation of a human forger. What they did was to dig deeper and deeper  into bits of the file until they went beyond their competence, found something they didn’t understand, and then claimed that it was an anomaly that proved forgery.

The infamous Maricopa County Cold Case Posse published analyses from unqualified amateurs who argued that the Obama form was a fake because the hardware and software they tried didn’t give the same results. They basically said that because the Obots couldn’t match, detail for detail, the White House PDF, that it must be a fake (never mind the proof of the external proofs that it was authentic).

My own opinion, based simply on how normal offices process documents, led me to speculate that the White House PDF came from a high-end copy/print/scanner office machine. Comments on this blog over a year ago suggested Xerox WorkCentre equipment. I made a half-hearted attempt at locating other similar PDF files from scanned documents on the White House web site, but didn’t come up with anything (and indeed I was looking for the wrong signature).

Now, in a new report, anti-birther blogger NBC has published a tentative identification of the specific equipment used to create the White House Certificate of Live Birth PDF file. We’ve also known for a very long time that the PDF, after original creation was opened and saved by the Preview program on a Mac. Anyhow, read the story at NBC’s blog.

The investigation might be pushed a little farther, but since neither birthers nor Obots have an actual paper copy of Obama’s long form birth certificate to test with, there’s probably not much more to be said.

I will say that I find it very hard to believe that any proof or reproduction of the White House PDF is likely to make any impression on the birthers. They only look for confirmation, not truth.

Update:

NBC has now published a new article titled: The Proof – Forgery done by Xerox Workcentre 7655.

Listen to RC Radio interview with NBC, a very informative look into his work with the White House PDF that lead to the answer to how it was made.

Listen to internet radio with RCRadio on BlogTalkRadio

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326 Responses to How 2 make a long form PDF

  1. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund June 23, 2013 at 9:16 pm #

    Breaking news! NBC, working off the data I dug up pointing towards a Xerox WorkCenter, has been able to determine the probable model of scanner used to make the White House LFBC.

    http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2013/06/23/potential-xerox-work-centre-7655/

    The Obama’s tax forms were scanned using a Xerox WorkCentre 7655, and show many of the same features as the LFBC (although the tax form doesn’t have a color background, so wouldn’t have some of the features seen in the LFBC).

    Great work, NBC, and a special thanks to gsgs, Mara Zebest, and Hermitian, who between them got me looking in the right direction. It all stemmed from finding a patent application by Xerox detailing a method of using multiple monochrome layers with MRC.

  2. avatar
    nbc June 23, 2013 at 11:48 pm #

    W. Kevin Vicklund: Great work, NBC, and a special thanks to gsgs, Mara Zebest, and Hermitian, who between them got me looking in the right direction. It all stemmed from finding a patent application by Xerox detailing a method of using multiple monochrome layers with MRC.

    Funny I had been looking at patent applications as well but you found the relevant one. Hermitian has been very encouraging but gsgs has been most helpful in understanding the various features. Kevin was instrumental in getting me directed to the Xerox printers. Once I found the comment string embedded in the jpeg, it was straightforward to show how it is created on these workcentre scanners.

    I am now 95% certain that we have found the “forger”.

    The CCP will not be happy, but apparently has already moved onwards.

  3. avatar
    nbc June 24, 2013 at 1:37 am #

    The investigation might be pushed a little farther, but since neither birthers nor Obots have an actual paper copy of Obama’s long form birth certificate to test with, there’s probably not much more to be said.

    I will see if I can make a PDF which shows a colorful background and multiple foreground bitmaps.
    Just intellectual curiosity. I never expect birthers to accept such facts as they have too much invested in it.

  4. avatar
    john June 24, 2013 at 9:05 am #

    Is this Vickland a certified Expert? The CCP has a certified expert and is under an official body. What some Obot has to say on some blog isn’t much credibility. Also Vickland is SPECULATING – “Breaking news! NBC, working off the data I dug up pointing towards a Xerox WorkCenter, has been able to determine the probable model of scanner used to make the White House LFBC.”

    The CCP doesn’t deal in SPECULATION.

  5. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 24, 2013 at 9:50 am #

    The CCP expert, as far as anyone knows, is not an expert in the internals of electronic documents, nor has his report even been published. As for speculation, I should remind you that Mike Zullo himself said that they have no evidence of any crime.

    john: Is this Vickland a certified Expert? The CCP has a certified expert and is under an official body. …

    The CCP doesn’t deal in SPECULATION.

  6. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater June 24, 2013 at 10:01 am #

    john: Is this Vickland a certified Expert? The CCP has a certified expert and is under an official body. What some Obot has to say on some blog isn’t much credibility. Also Vickland is SPECULATING – “Breaking news! NBC, working off the data I dug up pointing towards a Xerox WorkCenter, has been able to determine the probable model of scanner used to make the White House LFBC.”The CCP doesn’t deal in SPECULATION.

    No the CCP has a graphologist, which is a pseudo science, who was willing to sell his integrity for money.

  7. avatar
    gorefan June 24, 2013 at 10:05 am #

    Is Edge Erase® an automatic function?

  8. avatar
    The Magic M June 24, 2013 at 10:17 am #

    john: The CCP doesn’t deal in SPECULATION.

    If “I tried 1,000 ways to reproduce it and couldn’t, so it can’t be reproduced, so it is a forgery” isn’t speculation, then what is?

    Does Zullo really expect a court will let him use “we compared the found fingerprints with 1,000 people and none of them matched, so this only leaves the defendant as the one who left them” as evidence?

    Or his SPECULATION (outright lies, rather) as to why Hawaii wouldn’t let him waltz into their vault and check the documents?

    Or his SPECULATION that the alleged “legal loophole” in Hawaiian law (which he misrepresented of course) was “expolited” by Hawaii to “sell citizenships to foreigners” much like an organized crime operation?

    I mean, it’s not like he can point to *one single case* where that ever happened.

    So yes, keep telling us how the Posse is not using SPECULATION.

    Oh wait, I get it, the word means something else in Birther Bizarro World, right? Like “verification” means “non-verification” and “matches” means “doesn’t match”?

    So you actually say the Posse doesn’t deal in FACTS, right?

  9. avatar
    alg June 24, 2013 at 10:54 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    “The CCP expert, as far as anyone knows, is not an expert in the internals of electronic documents, nor has his report even been published. As for speculation, I should remind you that Mike Zullo himself said that they have no evidence of any crime.”

    Correct. Arpaio, washed his hands of this a year ago, publically stating in July, 2012, it was up to others to take the next steps. That’s code for Zullo’s pretty much on his own.

    Since then he’s admonished Zullo to stop inferring that criminal charges are pending in order to get birthers to stop pestering the good Sheriff to do something he will never do. Instead, Zullo has now turned his attention at marshaling enmity towards members of Congress, which Zullo can milk for some time to come. They’re easy targets.

  10. avatar
    JD Reed June 24, 2013 at 11:13 am #

    Magic M: “So yes, keep telling us how the Posse is not using SPECULATION.

    Oh wait, I get it, the word means something else in Birther Bizarro World, right? Like “verification” means “non-verification” and “matches” means “doesn’t match”?

    So you actually say the Posse doesn’t deal in FACTS, right?”

    Speculation as well as outright lies, such as the alleged Obama executive order sealing his personal records. Debunked more than four years ago, yet Zullo swore to this falsehood in an affidavit a few months back.
    Anyone who honestly seeks the facts, and possesses the requisite Internet search skills, can see for himself.
    You, John?
    Magic M, you have spawned an idea, for a dictionary of birther definitions. The birthers’ asserted meaning of a term would be placed alongside the common, ordinary meaning of the term. Call it the Devil’s Dictionary for Birthers! (Apologies to Ambrose Bierce, wherever you are.)

  11. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG June 24, 2013 at 11:29 am #

    John just played the “sore loser” card again.

  12. avatar
    The Magic M June 24, 2013 at 12:38 pm #

    JD Reed: Call it the Devil’s Dictionary for Birthers! (Apologies to Ambrose Bierce, wherever you are.)

    Good idea, that’s a shoe that fits!

  13. avatar
    nbc June 24, 2013 at 1:20 pm #

    john: The CCP doesn’t deal in SPECULATION.

    ROTFL John… But that is the problem with the CCP, it does not live up to its own reputation.

    And I love your response… As predicted…

  14. avatar
    nbc June 24, 2013 at 1:21 pm #

    gorefan: Is Edge Erase an automatic function?

    It can be turned on or off, and there are default settings. Hard to tell.

  15. avatar
    nbc June 24, 2013 at 1:27 pm #

    Since the last announcement I have found that like the Obama PDF, the jpeg has half the resolution of the monochrome bitmaps and that there appears to be an Edge Erase when compared to the Guthrie photograph which matches the actual white band on the embedded JPEG in the Obama PDF.

    Again, more and more pieces are falling into place.

    Poor John, he can do nothing about this…

  16. avatar
    The European June 24, 2013 at 1:35 pm #

    W. Kevin Vicklund: Great work, NBC, and a special thanks to gsgs, Mara Zebest, and Hermitian, who between them got me looking in the right direction

    Now how does Mara Zebest fit in there ?

  17. avatar
    Jim June 24, 2013 at 1:48 pm #

    john:

    The CCP doesn’t deal in SPECULATION.

    OMG, there went another meter. John you’re going to owe me big time for that one!

    Here’s a hint John, every time Zullo says ‘We think” or any other way of saying it, that’s speculation.

    Actually, you probably can be pretty sure any time Zullo opens his mouth, it’s pretty much speculation, since he himself knows he’s got NOTHING!!!

  18. avatar
    nbc June 24, 2013 at 2:36 pm #

    The edge erase needs some more work, the fact that it involves a jpeg which has 8×8 bit blocks or 0.0533′ x 0.0533” complicates matters. If the edge erase whitens a strip, the jpeg will change if its effects are not on a 8×8 pixel boundary.

  19. avatar
    Benji Franklin June 24, 2013 at 2:42 pm #

    john: Is this Vickland a certified Expert?

    Not in the sense which your writing suggests that you are obviously a certified john.
    If you ever decide to utter any of this crap in public, form the words with your sphincter and don’t push too hard. We don’t want to see your brains come out.

    Yes, you can exploit the patient, polite, and didactic civility of sane people almost endlessly with inane and incompetently framed questions. A desperate lawyer might use such tactics in a lost-cause case, just to delay and frustrate the inevitable losing of the case. But in your case, such an approach is the anti-social willingness to make discussion meaningless, and escape reality’s unfriendly logic wen it threatens to corner you. Not ironically such an approach is a favorite one of anarchists and lunatics.

  20. avatar
    nbc June 24, 2013 at 3:33 pm #

    john: Is this Vickland a certified Expert?

    Nope and neither am I or several others who uncovered what the so called ‘experts’ could not find.
    By focusing on the ad hominem you have voided any credibility you may have had left.

    Are these findings that hard to refute? Let me ask you: Why did the CCP not look at the raw embedded data?

    And why did they ignore the Guthrie and AP documents?

    So much ignorance and hand waving can now be explained with real evidence that show that the forger was a lone xerox Workcentre, unaware of the confusion it has caused amongst those with a confirmation bias about our President’s birth.

  21. avatar
    Indo June 24, 2013 at 3:58 pm #

    You spend all this effort arguing about shadows.

    You may be right, or you may be wrong about what the shadows show.

    The fact that the real docs stay hidden and protected from scrutiny is the best evidence something’s very very wrong.

  22. avatar
    Thrifty June 24, 2013 at 4:17 pm #

    Not yet. He has to wait until his “Official Document Forgery Expert” hat arrives in the mail on Thursday.

    john:
    Is this Vickland a certified Expert?

  23. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund June 24, 2013 at 4:46 pm #

    john: Is this Vickland a certified Expert?

    Who is this “Vickland” of which you speak?

    As for myself, I have a number of certifications, some of which are applicable to software output analysis. I’d stand a good chance of surviving voir dire. And you don’t need an expert to have the Court take judicial notice of patents, which are a matter of public record.

  24. avatar
    ellen June 24, 2013 at 4:54 pm #

    I could use a bit of help over at:

    http://www.westernjournalism.com/obama-calls-for-an-end-to-catholic-schools/#comment-215313

    And other blogs at western journalism that make the incendiary and false claim that Obama is calling for an end of Catholic schools.

    The evil motive behind making such claims should be clear to everyone.

  25. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 24, 2013 at 5:00 pm #

    Nobody takes Western Journalism seriously except nut jobs, and they’re not going to respond to argument.

    ellen: And other blogs at western journalism that make the incendiary and false claim that Obama is calling for an end of Catholic schools.

  26. avatar
    Daniel June 24, 2013 at 5:04 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Nobody takes Western Journalism seriously except nut jobs, and they’re not going to respond to argument.

    Western “Journalism” was founded by Joseph Farrah of World Nut Daily fame. It’s nothing more than an arm of World Nut Daily that they can quote from and pretend it’s an independent source.

  27. avatar
    john June 24, 2013 at 5:06 pm #

    The CCP is well-aware of the AP BC but is not prepared to release their findings and conclusions on it just yet. The CCP has indicated that there are just too many anolmies in the BC not withstanding any supposed claim of the identity of the scanner or printer that created the document. It is the CCP’s 100% conclusion that the PDF BC is a computer manfactured creation. In fact the CCP has indicated their findings do indicate that Adobe Photoshop was among one of the programs used to create the document. I believe Mike Zullo said this a previous interview.

  28. avatar
    G June 24, 2013 at 5:11 pm #

    Agreed.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Nobody takes Western Journalism seriously except nut jobs, and they’re not going to respond to argument.

  29. avatar
    ellen June 24, 2013 at 5:19 pm #

    Re: “Nobody takes Western Journalism seriously except nut jobs, and they’re not going to respond to argument. ”

    Answer: The nut jobs seem to be getting increasingly violent. That is why I worry.

  30. avatar
    nbc June 24, 2013 at 6:14 pm #

    I printed out the Whitehouse PDF and scanned it back in on a Xerox Workcentre 7655. Guess what?

    5 layers
    YCbCr tag in JPEG

    and look at the pretty pictures…

    QED…

  31. avatar
    Hermitian June 24, 2013 at 6:28 pm #

    nbc: And why did they ignore the Guthrie and AP documents?

    Actually, I did not ignore the AP documents. There were actually two PDFs, both produced by J. Scott Applewhite, an AP photographer. The first of the two has a White background and was created at 9:00:38 AM on April 27, 2011 approximately 12-1/2 minutes after the press gaggle began at 8:48 AM at the White House. The second PDF has a pale Blue background and was created at 9:28:48 AM.

    And then maybe you could explain why the two AP LFCOLB images have two double horizontal form lines but these lines are solid on the WH LFCOLB PDF?

    And then maybe you could explain why all the text characters of the AP 9:28:48 AM edition exhibit pincushion distortion but the AP 9:00:38 AM edition and the WH LFCOLB PDF do not?

  32. avatar
    Hermitian June 24, 2013 at 6:54 pm #

    nbc: I printed out the Whitehouse PDF and scanned it back in on a Xerox Workcentre 7655. Guess what?
    5 layers
    YCbCr tag in JPEG
    and look at the pretty pictures…
    QED…

    Great job nbc! You managed to obliterate half of SADO’s signature.

  33. avatar
    Hermitian June 24, 2013 at 7:03 pm #

    The Magic M: I mean, it’s not like he can point to *one single case* where that ever happened.

    Didn’t you mean NO Obot has ever produced a single Hawaii birth certificate with a foreign country name?

  34. avatar
    Bob June 24, 2013 at 7:04 pm #

    Photo of a protest sign on ORYR:

    “Obama Where’s Your Papers?”

  35. avatar
    Rickey June 24, 2013 at 7:07 pm #

    ellen:
    I could use a bit of help over at:

    http://www.westernjournalism.com/obama-calls-for-an-end-to-catholic-schools/#comment-215313

    And other blogs at western journalism that make the incendiary and false claim that Obama is calling for an end of Catholic schools.

    The evil motive behind making such claims should be clear to everyone.

    Obama gave a speech in Northern Ireland in which he stated that the tradition of having separate schools for Catholics and Protestants IN NORTHERN IRELAND has contributed to a culture of separatism there. He was speaking only about Northern Ireland, and his comments had nothing to do with Catholic schools elsewhere.

    When I graduated high school in 1966 the senior class in the public high school was about 20% Catholic, and would have been higher but for the fact that there was a Catholic high school in town. My family was Catholic, and since I could walk I was a close friend of my next-door neighbor, who was Methodist. Those sort of friendships, which we took for granted, were exceedingly rare in Northern Ireland.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-obama-catholic-schools-20130620,0,4557606.story

  36. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 24, 2013 at 7:59 pm #

    In what box?

    Hermitian: Didn’t you mean NO Obot has ever produced a single Hawaii birth certificate with a foreign country name?

  37. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 24, 2013 at 8:01 pm #

    That’s trivially obvious. At lower resolution, which is what the PDF is compared to the AP docs, thin double lines merge into a single line. You’re not that dumb.

    Hermitian: And then maybe you could explain why the two AP LFCOLB images have two double horizontal form lines but these lines are solid on the WH LFCOLB PDF?

  38. avatar
    nbc June 24, 2013 at 8:07 pm #

    Hermitian: Great job nbc! You managed to obliterate half of SADO’s signature.

    Lovely… So what now dear Hermitian?

  39. avatar
    nbc June 24, 2013 at 8:17 pm #

    Hermitian: Didn’t you mean NO Obot has ever produced a single Hawaii birth certificate with a foreign country name?

    You do understand then, the problem with the MCSO CCP’s analysis which was based on proving a negative…

    If only they had tried a Xerox Workcentre and they would not be so embarrassed today 🙂

  40. avatar
    nbc June 24, 2013 at 8:18 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: That’s trivially obvious. At lower resolution, which is what the PDF is compared to the AP docs, thin double lines merge into a single line. You’re not that dumb.

    He may be playing to the intellect of the average birther who may not understand such a trivial concept?

  41. avatar
    john June 24, 2013 at 8:32 pm #

    Mike Zullo welcomes any Obot or any person for that matter to come to the CCP office and with scanner equipment produce all of the anolmolies found in Obama’s birth certificate. Now that the equipment has been identified, this should be an easy challenge. Are you Doc, NBC or Vicklund ready to take on the challenge. What’s say you?

  42. avatar
    john June 24, 2013 at 8:35 pm #

    Mr. Vicklund seems like a new guy to this issue. He should contact the CCP and offer to bring the proper equipment and show the CCP how it was done.

  43. avatar
    nbc June 24, 2013 at 9:00 pm #

    nbc: He may be playing to the intellect of the average birther who may not understand such a trivial concept?

    Speaking of that, John just dropped by at my blog, reminding me that we do not everything the CCP knows…

    It’s safely to presume that they have nothing of interest or relevance… And now that the source of their investigation has been shown to not be a forgery, well… TIme to retire? I am sure Arpaio will be elated that he can now show that the document is not a forgery. He sounded so concerned…

  44. avatar
    Daniel June 24, 2013 at 10:58 pm #

    Hermitian:

    And then maybe you could explain blah blah blah…

    And then maybe you could explain blah blah blah…

    How about you explaining why anyone would forge a document with all the same information as the original?

    Or maybe you could explain why anyone would bother to “forge” a pdf when it wouldn’t matter even if Obama had copied the certified document in crayon and wax paper and ironed it to the White House window? Why copy a PDF, when a PDF simply doesn’t matter?

    Or maybe you could explain how Obama is rich and powerful enough to spend billions or trillions of dollars buying off or threatening literally hundreds of thousands of people, effectively enough to ensure that not one of those hundreds of thousands of people would ever utter a word about what they know…. but somehow he doesn’t have enough money left over to hire a competent forger, good enough to fool a bunch of barbers and cab drivers and retired nutbags?

    How about you explain some of those things Hermy? But you’ll ignore them again like you always do. Birthers don’t like to deal with the hard questions.

  45. avatar
    G June 24, 2013 at 11:35 pm #

    It is not just “hard” questions that birthers don’t like to deal with. Heck, as long as a question is relevant to reality at all, that triggers their cognitive dissonance and “ignore” feature of their brain right there…

    Daniel: How about you explain some of those things Hermy? But you’ll ignore them again like you always do. Birthers don’t like to deal with the hard questions.

  46. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 25, 2013 at 12:10 am #

    Hermy…

    Just wondering. You think this is a dilbertly manufactured forgery, correct? You think that it’s the best explaination, correct?

    Then please explain why someone would take half of a typed word, and put it on one layer, and then take half of the same word, and put it on another layer. That seems like a whole lot of extra work for the forger to do, when it would just be easier to put the word on the same layer? Seems to me that it is better explained by an algorithm. Isn’t this one of your “anomolies” that you say point to forgery?

    it’s things like this that you have to explain in order to have it be a better explaination than a simple algorithm.

  47. avatar
    Hermitian June 25, 2013 at 1:10 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: In what box?

    Hermitian: Didn’t you mean NO Obot has ever produced a single Hawaii birth certificate with a foreign country name?

    Nice try Mr. C but no banana. Maybe you should study the images before you bloviate. The Iowa Muscatine Journal published the 9:00:38 AM Applewhites’s first PDF masterpiece at 120 PPI X 120 PPI. The resolution of the form lines on the WH LFCOLB is 150 PPI X 150 PPI.

    So two lines merge into one when the resolution increases? Not on my Canon MFP !

    Also two broad lines do not merge into one thin one.

    Facts are as hard as Diamonds !

  48. avatar
    JRC June 25, 2013 at 3:08 am #

    dunstvangeet:
    Hermy…

    Just wondering.You think this is a dilbertly manufactured forgery, correct?You think that it’s the best explaination, correct?

    Then please explain why someone would take half of a typed word, and put it on one layer, and then take half of the same word, and put it on another layer.That seems like a whole lot of extra work for the forger to do, when it would just be easier to put the word on the same layer?Seems to me that it is better explained by an algorithm.Isn’t this one of your “anomolies” that you say point to forgery?

    it’s things like this that you have to explain in order to have it be a better explaination than a simple algorithm.

    Algorithm would be the best explanation. Unfortunately most birthers. Okay all birthers have no clue how computers work. They don’t understand the difference between a pdf, certified document (which has been verified by the office that actually certifies said document), and a photo. The pdf is just a smoke screen for their hatred for their own reasons. Whether it’s progressives, or a dark person in the White House. Actually I apologize, it’s not all about hatred. There are those that just want people that are haters to show them the money. Honestly that has been what it is all about. Not being Patriots as some pretend or we would have seen demands for Romney’s real BC so those so called Patriots could hold and examine by experts instead of that VOID thing we saw online. I’d say it’s mostly racism to be honest. My parents are exhibiting that more and more each day. SADLY

  49. avatar
    The Magic M June 25, 2013 at 4:51 am #

    JRC: Not being Patriots as some pretend or we would have seen demands for Romney’s real BC

    I think that the birthers’ “Romney shouldn’t show his BC until Obama shows his” line makes my top 10 list of dumbest things ever said by a human being. It even outranks Orly’s “I’m gonna vote for Rubio even though I think he’s ineligible because that’s still better than a Democrat” and is on par with “I’ve joined the Republican Party because they were against slavery 200 years ago”.

  50. avatar
    The Magic M June 25, 2013 at 5:00 am #

    Hermitian: Didn’t you mean NO Obot has ever produced a single Hawaii birth certificate with a foreign country name?

    You’re trying the wrong negative here.

    If Zullo claims Hawaii gives BC’s to foreign-born people stating “born in Hawaii”, he needs to find a foreign-born person with a BC stating “born in Hawaii”.
    You can’t just say “since I know of no Hawaiian BC’s stating foreign birth, it means Hawaii records foreign births as Hawaiian births”.
    Because the former simply doesn’t imply the latter (since the “hole” in your theory is that Hawaii simply never issued a Hawaiian BC to someone born abroad).
    And because absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence. You can’t prove a negative by claiming the other side is required to prove a positive.

  51. avatar
    zullo June 25, 2013 at 5:41 am #

    Can anyone explain why the birthers haven’t gone away yet?

  52. avatar
    Majority Will June 25, 2013 at 7:26 am #

    Hermitian: Didn’t you mean NO Obot has ever produced a single Hawaii birth certificate with a foreign country name?

    That’s just really stupid.

  53. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 25, 2013 at 7:49 am #

    I should point out that when Mr. Woodman offered to demonstrate the explanation of anomalies, but the CCP wouldn’t even return his calls. He offered to travel to Arizona at his own expense. The CCP has never been interested in evidence that refutes their theories. And when they have been proven wrong, they have never acknowledged their errors. So don’t try to play that game.

    I am sure that Zullo and crowd now know what the Obots have found and they will be sure not to test it.

    john: Mike Zullo welcomes any Obot or any person for that matter to come to the CCP office and with scanner equipment produce all of the anolmolies found in Obama’s birth certificate. Now that the equipment has been identified, this should be an easy challen

  54. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 25, 2013 at 7:51 am #

    In what box? Maybe you should read the question before trying to not answer it.

    Hermitian: Dr. Conspiracy: In what box?

    Hermitian: Didn’t you mean NO Obot has ever produced a single Hawaii birth certificate with a foreign country name?

    Nice try Mr. C but no banana. Maybe you should study the images before you bloviate

  55. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund June 25, 2013 at 8:15 am #

    Hermitian: And then maybe you could explain why the two AP LFCOLB images have two double horizontal form lines but these lines are solid on the WH LFCOLB PDF?

    Maybe the problem is that you need to get your eyes checked. They are not solid on the WH LFCOLB PDF, at least not the whole length of the line. There are areas where there is a distinct double line for all *three* sets of the double horizontal lines, plus the one vertical line you failed to mention.

    It is important to remember that the WH LFBC background has been doubly compressed. It is not just a matter of reducing it from 300 dpi to 150 dpi. There is an additional compression step based on 8×8 blocks.

  56. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund June 25, 2013 at 8:42 am #

    john:
    Mr. Vicklund seems like a new guy to this issue.He should contact the CCP and offer to bring the proper equipment and show the CCP how it was done.

    New? I’ve been posting on OCT longer than you have, john-boy. I’d just never bothered really looking to see if MRC could be used to create multiple monochrome layers (mainly because I have an understanding of information theory and it was immediately obvious that this would be both possible and desirable to do). Once I actually starting looking and found the Xerox patent, NBC and I managed to nail this down in what, 2 weeks? Maybe 3?

  57. avatar
    US Citizen June 25, 2013 at 8:54 am #

    I’ve heard it said many times that if someone won’t show their papers or certifications, they must be hiding something.

    Despite school and health dept certificates being sealed automatically at the time of their issuance, I don’t see any such privacy laws place for birthers.
    For example, how do we know they have any certified graphics or PDF experts at all?
    Where are THEIR records?
    Why won’t they release their very own records?
    What are they hiding?
    How do we *really* know Zullo was even once a cop?
    He hasn’t a single arrest or court appearance noted anywhere that I could find.

    Closest thing I’ve ever seen is a Xerox copy of Orly’s 1st degree Tae Kwon Do belt certification and often Wikipedia has her listed as having achieved a 2nd degree, a much more difficult attainment.
    (that’s right: birthers even lie when they DO have a certificate on file!)
    There’s various state bar sites for laywers of course, but they seem to say little except for some various reprimands.

    I want all the birther records!!!
    Who are these people?
    I want to see their certificates and licenses.
    Isn’t there a single “library of records” for prominent birthers?
    Have they so few accomplishments that documenting them would be pointless?

  58. avatar
    Hermitian June 25, 2013 at 9:05 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Hermitian: Didn’t you mean NO Obot has ever produced a single Hawaii birth certificate with a foreign country name?

    The Obots explain away the weird 1982 Hawaii law that allows the Director of Health to issue Hawaii birth certificates to foreign-born children by claiming that all the BCs issued under the law show the foreign country as the birth country instead of Hawaii. However no Obot has ever produced even one Hawaii birth certificate which shows a foreign country as the birthplace.

    Simple logic, which is all that Obots understand, would then dictate that all Hawaii birth certificates show Hawaii as the place of birth.

  59. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater June 25, 2013 at 9:44 am #

    Hermitian: The Obots explain away the weird 1982 Hawaii law that allows the Director of Health to issue Hawaii birth certificates to foreign-born children by claiming that all the BCs issued under the law show the foreign country as the birth country instead of Hawaii. However no Obot has ever produced even one Hawaii birth certificate which shows a foreign country as the birthplace.Simple logic, which is all that Obots understand, would then dictate that all Hawaii birth certificates show Hawaii as the place of birth.

    Except said law has no application to Obama since it was put in place 21 years after Obama was born. It’s not our job to do your homework.

  60. avatar
    Jim June 25, 2013 at 9:47 am #

    Hermitian: The Obots explain away the weird 1982 Hawaii law that allows the Director of Health to issue Hawaii birth certificates to foreign-born children by claiming that all the BCs issued under the law show the foreign country as the birth country instead of Hawaii.However no Obot has ever produced even one Hawaii birth certificate which shows a foreign country as the birthplace.

    Simple logic, which is all that Obots understand, would then dictate that all Hawaii birth certificates show Hawaii as the place of birth.

    You might check, but almost all states have the same kind of law on there books. And just because you haven’t seen something Hermi, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Simple logic dictates that not everything in the world can be seen from your mother’s basement.

  61. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 25, 2013 at 10:01 am #

    There are two statutes that you might be referring to. One is a foreign-born adoption, which is pretty much standard in all states, and not “weird” at all. The other statute is for the issuance of a courtesy certificate for Hawaiian residents who give birth overseas and meet certain criteria. This is more unusual, but not weird. It allows a Hawaiian resident to use a certified US document for the facts of birth rather than a foreign document, which would simplify things for the Hawaiian resident.

    Of course such documents are rare (most folks give birth in the place of residence) and no one would expect one to be floating around in the public domain.

    However, this is a red herring. Barack Obama was nor born in 1982. The State of Hawaii has verified all of the information on the long form certificate, and that includes the place of birth and the certificate number which includes the date of issuance. Obots don’t “explain away” the law. We simply prove that it doesn’t apply.

    Your “simple logic” that says that all Hawaiian certificates show Hawaii as the place of birth is patently absurd, since every foreign-born adoption in the country results in a certificate that shows a foreign country as place of birth. Your lack of competence is noted.

    Hermitian: The Obots explain away the weird 1982 Hawaii law that allows the Director of Health to issue Hawaii birth certificates to foreign-born children by claiming that all the BCs issued under the law show the foreign country as the birth country instead of Hawaii. However no Obot has ever produced even one Hawaii birth certificate which shows a foreign country as the birthplace.

    Simple logic, which is all that Obots understand, would then dictate that all Hawaii birth certificates show Hawaii as the place of birth.

  62. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 25, 2013 at 10:09 am #

    Hermitian:

    Hermitian, we have the Hawaii Department of Health telling us exactly what that means. The Hawaii Department of Health is the one that says that this law requires the foreign place to be listed for place of birth.

    Oh, and the law isn’t “weird”. Every state has a simular law. Oregon’s is codified in ORS 432.230 (g).

    See, someone who is born internationally, but is adopted in Oregon can get a birth certificate from Oregon. I could probably go through each state and list each and every state’s law.

  63. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 25, 2013 at 10:10 am #

    Birthers work backwards. In the normal world extraordinary claims require strong proof. For birthers ordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and extraordinary claims should be taken on the word of the birther.

    US Citizen: I’ve heard it said many times that if someone won’t show their papers or certifications, they must be hiding something.

  64. avatar
    Hermitian June 25, 2013 at 11:18 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Hermitian: The Obots explain away the weird 1982 Hawaii law that allows the Director of Health to issue Hawaii birth certificates to foreign-born children by claiming that all the BCs issued under the law show the foreign country as the birth country instead of Hawaii. However no Obot has ever produced even one Hawaii birth certificate which shows a foreign country as the birthplace.Simple logic, which is all that Obots understand, would then dictate that all Hawaii birth certificates show Hawaii as the place of birth.
    Except said law has no application to Obama since it was put in place 21 years after Obama was born. It’s not our job to do your homework.

    An earlier law was in effect before 1982 which permitted the same abuse as the 1982 law.

  65. avatar
    Benji Franklin June 25, 2013 at 11:22 am #

    zullo: Can anyone explain why the birthers haven’t gone away yet?

    There are a variety of reasons, any one of which can suffice to make a Birther continue the madness.

    1) A querulous personality: Often complaining, fretful, or whining. They become known to their circle of acquaintances and gradually their complaints are dismissively ignored. This can infuriate them to the point where they ante up their commitment to be heard and yielded to,by embarking on bizarrely anti-social and extreme tactics in long strategic campaigns meant to demonstrate the risk responsible persons (often public officials) are taking by ignoring them. Such campaigns might include thousands of nuisance phone calls, letters, office visits, or e-mails. They want to dictate how the situation will be resolved and no alternative outcome, no matter how well proven superior, or correct, will satisfy them. Their mantra is often stating endlessly, regardless of how reality repeatedly and demonstrably reveals they are wrong, that “this is not going away!” No legitimate expert can compete with what they “know” is “obvious” from carelessly analyzed and applied ignorance.

    2) Political opponents of Obama, who disingenuously seize on any opportunity to say something negative about him. The truth matters not to them.

    3) Persons with legitimate concern about what Natural Born Citizen was supposed to mean in Article 2. But these persons would not be Birthers for more than a few hours of sincere research at this point.

    4) Anti-social individuals who like to upset responsible citizens. They use the power of the lunatic to alarm sensible folks. Most of us who post regularly on Doc’s site here, have a healthy respect for how dependent good government and a healthy society are upon honestly engaged discourse, reporting, and the other kinds of formal and informal processes by which we resolve questions and coexist with the differences and disputes that remain, including respecting the courts and legitimate historical research. We have too much intellectual integrity to parse words tortuously in an attempt to impose our own negative agenda onto what was in reality, a totally unsupporting statement. But we respond to the inane postings of Birthers like John, who uses such tactics, because we sense that our whole civilized way of life would not survive if too many citizens destroyed discussions with such irrationality, and ironically, we keep expecting the 100th or 200th time we point out his idiocy, he will suddenly see his light was hopelessly dark all along. Like many other (I suspect) embittered and perhaps furious Birthers, while they pray for an assassin, as public losers on the merits, they can only win to the extent they can trouble those of us who are right on the issues.

  66. avatar
    Hermitian June 25, 2013 at 11:37 am #

    dunstvangeet: Hermitian, we have the Hawaii Department of Health telling us exactly what that means. The Hawaii Department of Health is the one that says that this law requires the foreign place to be listed for place of birth.
    Oh, and the law isn’t “weird”. Every state has a simular law. Oregon’s is codified in ORS 432.230 (g).
    See, someone who is born internationally, but is adopted in Oregon can get a birth certificate from Oregon. I could probably go through each state and list each and every state’s law.

    I was referring to this law:

    [338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

    (b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.

    (c) The fee for each application for registration shall be established by rule adopted pursuant to chapter 91. [L 1982, c 182, 1]

    This law says absolutely nothing about your requirement that the foreign country be shown as the birth country on the certificate. To the contrary, the entire certificate is subject to the discretion of the Director of Health Loretta Fuddy.

    Thus far no Obot has provided even one example of a certificate issued under this law.

  67. avatar
    Hermitian June 25, 2013 at 11:39 am #

    Benji Franklin: zullo: Can anyone explain why the birthers haven’t gone away yet?
    There are a variety of reasons, any one of which can suffice to make a Birther continue the madness.

    Did you ever consider that it’s because the Birthers are right?

  68. avatar
    Hermitian June 25, 2013 at 11:41 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Birthers work backwards.

    Obots are backwards. That why they never get the technical stuff right.

  69. avatar
    Daniel June 25, 2013 at 11:45 am #

    Hermitian:

    Posting these questions again, just in case you may have “honestly” missed them.

    How about you explaining why anyone would forge a document with all the same information as the original?

    Or maybe you could explain why anyone would bother to “forge” a pdf when it wouldn’t matter even if Obama had copied the certified document in crayon and wax paper and ironed it to the White House window? Why copy a PDF, when a PDF simply doesn’t matter?

    Or maybe you could explain how Obama is rich and powerful enough to spend billions or trillions of dollars buying off or threatening literally hundreds of thousands of people, effectively enough to ensure that not one of those hundreds of thousands of people would ever utter a word about what they know…. but somehow he doesn’t have enough money left over to hire a competent forger, good enough to fool a bunch of barbers and cab drivers and retired nutbags?

  70. avatar
    gorefan June 25, 2013 at 11:55 am #

    Hermitian: Thus far no Obot has provided even one example of a certificate issued under this law.

    That’s because even though the law is on the books it has never been used. No one has ever requested such a birth certificate.

    And no birther has provided even one example of a certificate issued under this law.

  71. avatar
    Hermitian June 25, 2013 at 11:57 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: However, this is a red herring. Barack Obama was nor born in 1982. The State of Hawaii has verified all of the information on the long form certificate, and that includes the place of birth and the certificate number which includes the date of issuance. Obots don’t “explain away” the law. We simply prove that it doesn’t apply.

    Your comment is ridiculous! There is existing federal law that applies to children born out of country to citizen parents to obtain a US birth certificate. It begins with the parents taking a copy of the local birth certificate to the US Consulate and ends with the child being awarded a certificate of US citizenship.

    In fact if the parents didn’t obtain the Certificate of US Citizenship from the State Department then they have screwed up.

    The 338-17.8 Hawaii law is a loophole around federal law that permits the State of Hawaii to issue Hawaii birth certificates to foreign-born children of non-citizen parents.

    My guess is that the HDOH and the Hawaii Attorney General are acting as a US consulate in assisting these foreign parents to also obtain the certificate of US citizenship. There is evidence to that fact on the court record.

  72. avatar
    Hermitian June 25, 2013 at 12:07 pm #

    W. Kevin Vicklund: As for myself, I have a number of certifications, some of which are applicable to software output analysis. I’d stand a good chance of surviving voir dire. And you don’t need an expert to have the Court take judicial notice of patents, which are a matter of public record.

    Then you should know that using Preview to examine PDF files is risky because Apple’s long-time use of PDF files on the Macintosh has been and continues to be non-standard.

  73. avatar
    nbc June 25, 2013 at 12:17 pm #

    Hermitian: An earlier law was in effect before 1982 which permitted the same abuse as the 1982 law.

    No evidence of this was ever presented.

  74. avatar
    nbc June 25, 2013 at 12:18 pm #

    Hermitian: Simple logic, which is all that Obots understand, would then dictate that all Hawaii birth certificates show Hawaii as the place of birth.

    Yes, that’s the kind of logic we have come to understand from birthers. But again… they have the burden of proof to overcome. And again, they failed.

  75. avatar
    nbc June 25, 2013 at 12:25 pm #

    Hermitian: pplewhites’s first PDF masterpiece at 120 PPI X 120 PPI. The resolution of the form lines on the WH LFCOLB is 150 PPI X 150 PPI.

    The DPI’s are very similar but the quality of the JPEG is significantly worse in the Whitehouse which shows a quality of 47% versus 66% for the AP1.

    .

  76. avatar
    nbc June 25, 2013 at 12:28 pm #

    Hermitian appears to now have accepted that the true forger of the Whitehouse PDF has been identified and is now moving the goalposts.

    As expected, his confirmation bias allows for nothing else.

  77. avatar
    nbc June 25, 2013 at 12:33 pm #

    Hermitian: Thus far no Obot has provided even one example of a certificate issued under this law.

    Neither have the birthers, who have to show that somehow the location would not represent, as the DOH has insisted, the actual birth place.

    Hermitian still does not understand the burden of proof.

  78. avatar
    nbc June 25, 2013 at 12:34 pm #

    Regarding the latest allegations from a sheriff in Arizona, they are untrue, misinformed, and misconstrue Hawaii law.

    The purpose of section 338-17.8, Hawaii Revised Statutes (HRS), is to accommodate foreign-born individuals whose parents were residents of Hawaii but were temporarily outside of this state due to employment or military service. Similar to section 338-20.5, HRS, which provides for a certificate of foreign birth, anyone who receives a birth certificate under this section would have noted on their birth certificate the physical location of their actual birth. It does not confer citizenship, which is, of course, a power of the federal government.

    We also note that section 338-17.8 was not passed until 1982, so it cannot apply to President Obama, who was born at the Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital in Honolulu in 1961, as is reflected on his certificate of live birth, a copy of which can be viewed on the White House website, a link to which is provided on DOH’s website.

    Vital records in Hawaii have some of the highest levels of privacy protection in the nation. Not only are Hawaii’s vital records some of the best managed, but they also have some of the strongest restrictions on access to prevent identity theft and fraud.

    Joshua A. Wisch is the Special Assistant to the Attorney General for the State of Hawaii

    Poor Hermitian still has to explain why the birth was witnessed by the attending physician in a Hawaiian hospital and filed soon thereafter.

    Logic has never been his strong point though.

  79. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 25, 2013 at 12:49 pm #

    Hermy, you said that the law was unusual in the fact that it allows people born outside of Hawaii to get a Hawaiian birth certificate. I showed you that other states have simular laws. You lose that argument.

    And if you want that, take a look at the Hawaii Administrative Rules, which is part of the law of Hawaii. It specifically says “Place of birth (true or probable country of birth)” being on the certificate.

    You can read them here: http://gen.doh.hawaii.gov/sites/har/AdmRules1/11-120.pdf

    Again, you lose.

  80. avatar
    gorefan June 25, 2013 at 12:58 pm #

    nbc: Logic has never been his strong point though.

    From July, 2009

    “As for the theory that Obama’s original birth certificate might show he was foreign-born, Okubo said the “Certification of Live Birth” would say so. Obama’s does not. Again, it says he was born in Honolulu.”

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/28/worldnetdaily/birthers-claim-gibbs-lied-when-he-said-obamas-birt/

  81. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 25, 2013 at 1:03 pm #

    It’s not a “loophole” around federal law. It is simply a certification of documented facts. You, yourself provide the reason: non-citizen residents of Hawaii aren’t eligible for a Consular Certificate of Birth Abroad. A birth certificate is not proof of citizenship; it is proof of the facts of birth. If those facts make someone a citizenship then it proves citizenship, and if those facts to not make someone a citizen, then it doesn’t.

    Silly birther.

    Hermitian: The 338-17.8 Hawaii law is a loophole around federal law that permits the State of Hawaii to issue Hawaii birth certificates to foreign-born children of non-citizen parents.

  82. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 25, 2013 at 1:09 pm #

    Sure, but that was ruled out on the evidence in 2008. Have you ever consider loss of 100% of the court cases on Obama’s eligibility was because they were wrong?

    Hermitian: Did you ever consider that it’s because the Birthers are right?

  83. avatar
    sfjeff June 25, 2013 at 1:15 pm #

    john: Mike Zullo welcomes any Obot or any person for that matter to come to the CCP office and with scanner equipment produce all of the anolmolies found in Obama’s birth certificate. Now that the equipment has been identified, this should be an easy challenge. Are you Doc, NBC or Vicklund ready to take on the challenge. What’s say you?

    so have we finally identified the mystery?

    That John is Mike Zullo?

    This would explain not only John’s posts but Mike Zullo’s statements….

  84. avatar
    Rickey June 25, 2013 at 1:21 pm #

    Hermitian:

    Thus far no Obot has provided even one example of a certificate issued under this law.

    Thus far no birther has provided even one example of a Hawaii birth certificate issued to someone not born in Hawaii which shows Hawaii as the place of birth, unless you have convinced yourself that the unique case of Sun Yat-sen set some sort of precedent.

    You would have us believe that no birth certificate from Hawaii is reliable. That should come as a surprise to the State Department, which has issued passports to 46% of Hawaii residents.

  85. avatar
    Rickey June 25, 2013 at 1:29 pm #

    john:
    Mike Zullo welcomes any Obot or any person for that matter to come to the CCP office and with scanner equipment produce all of the anolmolies found in Obama’s birth certificate.Now that the equipment has been identified, this should be an easy challenge.Are you Doc, NBC or Vicklund ready to take on the challenge.What’s say you?

    What, Zullo can’t go see someone who has the correct scanner? They have to bring the scanner to him?

    What happened, did Arpaio slash Zullo’s travel budget?

  86. avatar
    Sactosintolerant June 25, 2013 at 1:48 pm #

    Hermitian: The Obots explain away the weird 1982 Hawaii law that allows the Director of Health to issue Hawaii birth certificates to foreign-born children by claiming that all the BCs issued under the law show the foreign country as the birth country instead of Hawaii.However no Obot has ever produced even one Hawaii birth certificate which shows a foreign country as the birthplace.

    Simple logic, which is all that Obots understand, would then dictate that all Hawaii birth certificates show Hawaii as the place of birth.

    Obviously, that isn’t the logical conclusion, which says a lot about your ability to apply logic. At best, there’s not enough information available to know. However, it the safe assumption to make is that a state agency in charge of certifying the place of birth would, ya know, actually put the documented place of birth on a birth record.

  87. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund June 25, 2013 at 1:50 pm #

    Hermitian: Then you should know that using Preview to examine PDF files is risky because Apple’s long-time use of PDF files on the Macintosh has been and continues to be non-standard.

    Well, yes, that’s generally true of any third-party viewing software (and is not restricted to PDF), and also extends to the free and reduced-capacity versions. What’s your point?

  88. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund June 25, 2013 at 2:08 pm #

    john:
    Mike Zullo welcomes any Obot or any person for that matter to come to the CCP office and with scanner equipment produce all of the anolmolies found in Obama’s birth certificate.Now that the equipment has been identified, this should be an easy challenge.Are you Doc, NBC or Vicklund ready to take on the challenge.What’s say you?

    Sure. That’ll be a full day at $80/hr, so $640, plus airfare, call that $360, a MacIntosh computer, so another $500, and a Xerox WorkCentre 7655 at $4000. That makes a total of $5500 the CCP will need to raise to bring me in. Better start the bake sale, john-boy.

  89. avatar
    Hermitian June 25, 2013 at 2:09 pm #

    W. Kevin Vicklund: Hermitian: And then maybe you could explain why the two AP LFCOLB images have two double horizontal form lines but these lines are solid on the WH LFCOLB PDF?
    Maybe the problem is that you need to get your eyes checked. They are not solid on the WH LFCOLB PDF, at least not the whole length of the line. There are areas where there is a distinct double line for all *three* sets of the double horizontal lines, plus the one vertical line you failed to mention.
    It is important to remember that the WH LFBC background has been doubly compressed. It is not just a matter of reducing it from 300 dpi to 150 dpi. There is an additional compression step based on 8×8 blocks.

    You must be using that Preview Viewer again. I tried to tell you…

    Try any Adobe product at 3200% Zoom.

    By the way there are better free-ware programs than Preview. Try Inkscape.

    The Muscatine Journal’s PDF from Applewhite, the AP photographer, shows a partial form line above the “State of Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth Department of Health” line of text.

    You don’t see that on the WH LFCOLB.

    Also regions of this unique image have a pure White background.

  90. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater June 25, 2013 at 2:20 pm #

    Hermitian: An earlier law was in effect before 1982 which permitted the same abuse as the 1982 law.

    Which law was that Henry?

  91. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 25, 2013 at 2:49 pm #

    Arpaio represents that Zullo is not using money budgeted to his department.

    I presume Zullo is raiding the funds donated towards solving cold cases.

    Rickey: What happened, did Arpaio slash Zullo’s travel budget?

  92. avatar
    Majority Will June 25, 2013 at 2:51 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Which law was that Henry?

    It’s a little sad to witness any birther bigot constantly and defiantly displaying such incredible stupidity.

  93. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 25, 2013 at 2:55 pm #

    sfjeff: so have we finally identified the mystery?

    That John is Mike Zullo?

    This would explain not only John’s posts but Mike Zullo’s statements….

    I think you’re on to something.

  94. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 25, 2013 at 3:00 pm #

    john: Mike Zullo welcomes any Obot or any person for that matter to come to the CCP office and with scanner equipment produce all of the anolmolies found in Obama’s birth certificate.

    What is the address of the “CCP office”, John?

  95. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG June 25, 2013 at 3:02 pm #

    Hermitian:
    Birther derp.

    Keep on moving those goal posts, baby!

  96. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund June 25, 2013 at 3:06 pm #

    Hermitian: You must be using that Preview Viewer again. I tried to tell you…

    Try any Adobe product at 3200% Zoom.

    Never used Preview in my life. I’m not sure why you can’t see the remnants of double lines, I see them in Adobe Reader XI and Adobe Acrobat 9, without having to zoom in nearly that far. And hell, I can even see them in MS Paint. Sure, they’re obscured somewhat due to compression. Of course, you don’t even know what compression is, let alone how it works.

  97. avatar
    JD Reed June 25, 2013 at 3:14 pm #

    Hermitian: Did you ever consider that it’s because the Birthers are right?

    Well, it would be infinitely easier to consider the remote possibility that birthers are right had they not been so consistently and blatantly wrong for so long. (In court, 200-something to zero, and counting.)
    Many of the birther narratives totally contradict other birther narratives, so by sheer logic,a lot of them have to be invented stories, or lies, to put it less charitably.
    A few examples: Obama couldn’t have both been a terrible student at Columbia, or one identified as a foreign student, as some birthers insist, and yet not have attended Columbia at all, as others maintain.
    If Obama’s relatives had scammed the State Department of Health into issuing a Hawaii-born birth certificate for him, as some birthers hypothesize, there would have been no need to obtain a fraudulent Social Security number, as others (and probably some of the same ones) insist. He could have obtained a SS card authentic in form, even if it was based on false information.
    At the point he first needed a Social Security card — if he had been issued a Hawaii BC that was authentic in form though stating false information — he would have had no trouble obtaining a SS number unique to him, with no need to steal someone else’s, as many birthers allege he did.
    See, for the birthers’ allegations of fraud to make sense, they sorely need a motive. If all Obama’s parents and grandparents wanted was make him a citizen, obtaining citizenship legally would have been a far simpler process than the elaborate machinations birthers (say they) suspect.
    That they might have wanted to keep the possiblity for this half-black baby to grow up to become president is even more absurd, given that millions of black Americans couldn’t vote, couln’t attend their states’ best schools, colleges and universities, couldn’t live where they chose, or couldn’t realize their potential in careers they might have chosen.
    Also, I agree with Rickey that your statement – that there’s no instance can be found of any Hawaii residents using the law for registering foreign births the way the law intended – is pointless. The law is there for people to use if they choose; if no one does, that in no way invalidates the law.
    But if no instance can be found where people used the law as unintended – that is, registering a foreign birth as occurring in Hawaii – that’s huge. It means that the vast weight of the evidence from Hawaii birth records supports the notion that Obama was born in Hawaii.

  98. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund June 25, 2013 at 3:19 pm #

    Hermitian: The Muscatine Journal’s PDF from Applewhite, the AP photographer, shows a partial form line above the “State of Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth Department of Health” line of text.

    You don’t see that on the WH LFCOLB.

    Please get your vision checked. Not only is there a line above the “State of Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth Department of Health” line of text in the WH pdf, it’s more extensive than in the “AP white” version, which is cropped, resized, and scanned in B&W in a high contrast mode.

  99. avatar
    JD Reed June 25, 2013 at 3:20 pm #

    Hermitian: An earlier law was in effect before 1982 which permitted the same abuse as the 1982 law.

    Cite the law, please, Herms. Quote it verbatim.

  100. avatar
    gorefan June 25, 2013 at 3:36 pm #

    Hermitian: The Muscatine Journal’s PDF from Applewhite, the AP photographer, shows a partial form line above the “State of Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth Department of Health” line of text.

    That’s not a form line but the top of the birth certificate, you can follow the “form line” from the left just about the words “STATE OF HAWAII”.

  101. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund June 25, 2013 at 3:42 pm #

    Hermitian: Nice try Mr. C but no banana.Maybe you should study the images before you bloviate.The Iowa Muscatine Journal published the 9:00:38 AM Applewhites’s first PDF masterpiece at 120 PPI X 120 PPI.The resolution of the form lines on the WH LFCOLB is 150 PPI X 150 PPI.

    So two lines merge into one when the resolution increases?Not on my Canon MFP !

    Also two broad lines do not merge into one thin one.

    Facts are as hard as Diamonds !

    While the “AP white” image is at a lower resolution than the WH image, the “AP white” has been cropped and scaled. As a result, its resolution wrt the original image is actually higher. Also, I note that for much of the length of what is clearly a double line in the hi-res “AP blue” on the “AP white” is a single line.

    Again, I urge Hermie to get his eyes checked. The hi-res “AP blue” shows two thin double lines, whereas both the “AP white” and the WH pdf have a combination of two thin lines and one broad line. Nowhere is there two broad lines merging to one thin line.

  102. avatar
    Whatever4 June 25, 2013 at 3:45 pm #

    Hermitian:

    The 338-17.8 Hawaii law is a loophole around federal law that permits the State of Hawaii to issue Hawaii birth certificates to foreign-born children of non-citizen parents.

    My guess is that the HDOH and the Hawaii Attorney General are acting as a US consulate in assisting these foreign parents to also obtain the certificate of US citizenship.There is evidence to that fact on the court record.

    Uh…. no. Most states do this the same way. Here’s what the NY state one looks like. http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm71/gio220/MKRMCBCNYS222-1.jpg

  103. avatar
    Hermitian June 25, 2013 at 3:46 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: Hermitian: An earlier law was in effect before 1982 which permitted the same abuse as the 1982 law.
    Which law was that Henry?

    Nose I’m not your legal flunky ! Go look it up !

  104. avatar
    Whatever4 June 25, 2013 at 3:47 pm #

    Hermitian: Then you should know that using Preview to examine PDF files is risky because Apple’s long-time use of PDF files on the Macintosh has been and continues to be non-standard.

    What do you mean risky? I have a Mac Mini, and Preview is how I view all PDFs.

  105. avatar
    nbc June 25, 2013 at 3:48 pm #

    Hermitian: You must be using that Preview Viewer again. I tried to tell you…

    Try any Adobe product at 3200% Zoom.

    By the way there are better free-ware programs than Preview. Try Inkscape

    Or GIMP, or a PDF dump which all show support for Vicklund.

  106. avatar
    Hermitian June 25, 2013 at 3:48 pm #

    Whatever4: Uh…. no. Most states do this the same way. Here’s what the NY state one looks like. http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm71/gio220/MKRMCBCNYS222-1.jpg

    Does it have Hawaii on it? If not I’m not interested.

  107. avatar
    Whatever4 June 25, 2013 at 3:50 pm #

    Here’s the PA law, similar to the HI law:

    Can we register the birth of our child that was born in another country?

    Yes. You may register the birth of your child who was born in a country other than the United States with the Division of Vital Records if either parent is a citizen of the United States and a legal resident of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The appropriate forms and instructions may be requested from the Division of Vital Records. You may call (724) 698-2384 if you require further information. http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/birth_certificates/14121/faqs_births/610832#L

  108. avatar
    Hermitian June 25, 2013 at 3:56 pm #

    Whatever4: Hermitian: Then you should know that using Preview to examine PDF files is risky because Apple’s long-time use of PDF files on the Macintosh has been and continues to be non-standard.

    What do you mean risky? I have a Mac Mini, and Preview is how I view all PDFs.

    If you use Preview for all PDFs then you’re a disaster just waiting to happen.

    Adobe Reader XI is free and is bulletproof.

    If I ever had a MAC (and I definitely won’t) I would download AR to it and make it my default PDF editor before nightfall.

  109. avatar
    Majority Will June 25, 2013 at 3:58 pm #

    Whatever4: What do you mean risky? I have a Mac Mini, and Preview is how I view all PDFs.

    Ditto. Evidently, the birther bigot can’t help but spew inane and irrelevant b.s.

    This flaming fool is clearly just making up crap. How pathetic.

  110. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 25, 2013 at 4:00 pm #

    Adobe Reader XI is not an editor.

    Hermitian: If I ever had a MAC (and I definitely won’t) I would download AR to it and make it my default PDF editor before nightfall.

  111. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund June 25, 2013 at 4:02 pm #

    Whatever4: What do you mean risky? I have a Mac Mini, and Preview is how I view all PDFs.

    Some complex pdf’s don’t display properly in Preview. What Hermie is referring to specifically is that Preview by default will display all layers, even if they’re hidden layers. For most pdf’s you’re fine.

    I should note that Adobe Reader is not bullet-proof, as it has its own set of issues.

  112. avatar
    Hermitian June 25, 2013 at 4:04 pm #

    Whatever4: Here’s the PA law, similar to the HI law:
    Can we register the birth of our child that was born in another country?
    Yes. You may register the birth of your child who was born in a country other than the United States with the Division of Vital Records if either parent is a citizen of the United States and a legal resident of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The appropriate forms and instructions may be requested from the Division of Vital Records. You may call (724) 698-2384 if you require further information. http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/birth_certificates/14121/faqs_births/610832#L

    Last time I looked PA is not Hawaii either.

  113. avatar
    Majority Will June 25, 2013 at 4:06 pm #

    W. Kevin Vicklund: Some complex pdf’s don’t display properly in Preview.What Hermie is referring to specifically is that Preview by default will display all layers, even if they’re hidden layers.For most pdf’s you’re fine.

    I have no complaints with Preview but I use Acrobat Pro and Illustrator for prepress.

    However, the birther is still just making asinine assertions.

  114. avatar
    Majority Will June 25, 2013 at 4:08 pm #

    Hermitian: If I ever had a MAC . .

    Who cares? And you can’t even spell the word correctly. Don’t you have a bridge to guard?

  115. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 25, 2013 at 4:09 pm #

    Right, meaning that we have two independent examples of states doing what YOU think is weird. You seem to be just trying to provoke other commenters rather than discussing. The ban is back on.

    Hermitian: Last time I looked PA is not Hawaii either.

  116. avatar
    Majority Will June 25, 2013 at 4:10 pm #

    Hermitian: Last time I looked PA is not Hawaii either.

    Again, that’s just really stupid.

  117. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 25, 2013 at 4:10 pm #

    This article has been updated.

  118. avatar
    Whatever4 June 25, 2013 at 4:23 pm #

    Hermitian:

    Thus far no Obot has provided even one example of a certificate issued under this law.

    This is the blank form of the certificate in question. http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee410/Whatever4PJ/HawaiiCOFB_zps4874d485.jpg

    This is the Certificate of Foreign Birth that is referred to in the Administrative Rules here: http://oeqc.doh.hawaii.gov/sites/har/AdmRules1/11-120.pdf

    And the certificate that Janet Okubo referred to here: “If you were born in Bali, for example,” Okubo explained, “you could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were born in Bali. You could not get a certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate. ”

    http://washingtonindependent.com/51489/birther-movement-picks-up-steam

  119. avatar
    Whatever4 June 25, 2013 at 4:27 pm #

    Hermitian:
    My guess is that the HDOH and the Hawaii Attorney General are acting as a US consulate in assisting these foreign parents to also obtain the certificate of US citizenship.There is evidence to that fact on the court record.

    Please show evidence to that fact on the court record. Case citation is fine, but link to the record itself would be better.

  120. avatar
    Hermitian June 25, 2013 at 4:32 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Adobe Reader XI is not an editor.

    Hermitian: If I ever had a MAC (and I definitely won’t) I would download AR to it and make it my default PDF editor before nightfall.

    There are a bunch of free PDF editiors for MAC OS. Here’s 10 that anyone can try.

    http://www.macping.com/top-10-free-pdf-editors-for-mac-to-use-for-work-and-leisure/

  121. avatar
    Whatever4 June 25, 2013 at 4:37 pm #

    W. Kevin Vicklund: Please get your vision checked.Not only is there a line above the “State of Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth Department of Health” line of text in the WH pdf, it’s more extensive than in the “AP white” version, which is cropped, resized, and scanned in B&W in a high contrast mode.

    Not to mention printed out onto paper then photographed. The resolution of the printer needs to be considered.

  122. avatar
    Whatever4 June 25, 2013 at 4:39 pm #

    Hermitian: If you use Preview for all PDFs then you’re a disaster just waiting to happen.

    Adobe Reader XI is free and is bulletproof.

    If I ever had a MAC (and I definitely won’t) I would download AR to it and make it my default PDF editor before nightfall.

    Define disaster waiting to happen. Will my computer explode? Erase files? Or just show minor odd artifacts that don’t matter to me?

    ADDED: I don’t ever edit PDFs. I only read them. So why would Preview be a disaster? I’m not analyzing images like NBC is.

  123. avatar
    nbc June 25, 2013 at 4:42 pm #

    Whatever4: Please show evidence to that fact on the court record. Case citation is fine, but link to the record itself would be better.

    Well uh….

  124. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater June 25, 2013 at 4:45 pm #

    Hermitian: Nose I’m not your legal flunky ! Go look it up !

    In other words you’re lying about the law and have no idea what you’re talking about. If there was something to support your claim you would show it.

  125. avatar
    nbc June 25, 2013 at 4:48 pm #

    Hermitian: Nose I’m not your legal flunky ! Go look it up !

    As expected. Hermitian strikes out again…

    Poor soul

  126. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund June 25, 2013 at 5:03 pm #

    Hermitian: There are a bunch of free PDF editiors for MAC OS.Here’s 10 that anyone can try.

    http://www.macping.com/top-10-free-pdf-editors-for-mac-to-use-for-work-and-leisure/

    Guess what’s number 9 on the list…

  127. avatar
    Rickey June 25, 2013 at 5:25 pm #

    Hermitian: Nose I’m not your legal flunky ! Go look it up !

    You can’t look up something which doesn’t exist.

    You made the claim. Now back it up, if you can.

  128. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG June 25, 2013 at 5:42 pm #

    nbc: As expected. Hermitian strikes out again…

    Poor soul

    Yeah, that’s pretty pathetic. Everything he’s said has been shot to hell, but predictably, he keeps on trying to BS everyone.

  129. avatar
    Majority Will June 25, 2013 at 5:56 pm #

    Hermitian: There are a bunch of free PDF editiors for MAC OS. Here’s 10 that anyone can try.

    Taking Mac software advice from someone who doesn’t and won’t use a Mac is like taking advice on history and law from a delusional birther bigot.

    Both are utterly useless.

  130. avatar
    Arthur June 25, 2013 at 6:04 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Everything he’s said has been shot to hell, but predictably, he keeps on trying to BS everyone.

    Isn’t this true of everyone involved in birtherism?

  131. avatar
    Daniel June 25, 2013 at 7:23 pm #

    Hermitian: Hermitian:

    Hermitian…. I see you’ve made a whole bunch more posts, yet you still avoid my questions. If they’re too hard for you, just say so, OK?

    I’m posting these questions again, just in case you may have “honestly” missed them.

    How about you explaining why anyone would forge a document with all the same information as the original?

    Or maybe you could explain why anyone would bother to “forge” a pdf when it wouldn’t matter even if Obama had copied the certified document in crayon and wax paper and ironed it to the White House window? Why forge a PDF, when a PDF simply doesn’t matter?

    Or maybe you could explain how Obama is rich and powerful enough to spend billions or trillions of dollars buying off or threatening literally hundreds of thousands of people, effectively enough to ensure that not one of those hundreds of thousands of people would ever utter a word about what they know…. but somehow he doesn’t have enough money left over to hire a competent forger, good enough to fool a bunch of barbers and cab drivers and retired nutbags?

  132. avatar
    Benji Franklin June 25, 2013 at 7:59 pm #

    Hermitian: Benji Franklin: zullo: Can anyone explain why the birthers haven’t gone away yet?
    There are a variety of reasons, any one of which can suffice to make a Birther continue the madness.

    Did you ever consider that it’s because the Birthers are right?

    The Birthers can’t collectively be “right” because they have many mutually exclusive theories about what constitutes a legal reason for claiming that Obama was ineligible as a candidate, or has somehow forfeited his right to remain in office.

    In our society, the significance of legal challenges based on suspicion is settled officially in courts, and while endless new or repeated doubts can be advanced through the system, by convention, 200 + legal sorties in a row, all rejecting the doubts and conjectural charges against Obama, establish an overwhelming consensus opinion that he is eligible and can legally continue to hold office.

    For Birthers to think that all of this procedural verification of his eligibility can be subsumed to their whining declarations that some further conceivable standard of proof is needed, or that his eligibility is uncertain to the same degree that any fact based on consensus opinion might be remotely uncertain, is nothing more than a kind of unseemly loser’s tantrum.

    Suggesting that Birthers don’t go away because they might be right, is like suggesting that Hitler may have lost World War 2 because he was too nice.

  133. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 25, 2013 at 8:49 pm #

    He wasn’t trying to offer advice. He was trying to divert attention from his really wrong statement that Adobe Reader was a PDF editor. That game playing got him banned again.

    Majority Will: Taking Mac software advice from someone who doesn’t and won’t use a Mac is like taking advice on history and law from a delusional birther bigot.

  134. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 25, 2013 at 8:51 pm #

    OK, that was funny.

    W. Kevin Vicklund: Guess what’s number 9 on the list…

  135. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater June 25, 2013 at 8:51 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    He wasn’t trying to offer advice. He was trying to divert attention from his really wrong statement that Adobe Reader was a PDF editor. That game playing got him banned again.

    Adobe Acrobat Professional is the editor hermitian knows absolutely nothing.

  136. avatar
    Northland10 June 25, 2013 at 9:10 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Right, meaning that we have two independent examples of states doing what YOU think is weird. You seem to be just trying to provoke other commenters rather than discussing. The ban is back on.

    Maybe you can release the ban if he actually points to the law he claims existed before the 1982 one or he admits he made it up out of thin air.

    Since reference for 338-17.8 is L 1982, c 182, 1, and is not [am L 1982, c 182 1], the law was a new one. It did not amend a previous law. If Hermie is reading this, he might want to consider knowing more about the subject before he makes up some claim.

    How to Research Constitutional, Legislative and Statutory History in Hawaii

  137. avatar
    Thomas Brown June 25, 2013 at 11:35 pm #

    Hermaphroditian (or any other Birfoon) making stuff up and shamelessly lying?

    Say it ain’t so.

  138. avatar
    The Magic M June 26, 2013 at 4:19 am #

    Benji Franklin: Suggesting that Birthers don’t go away because they might be right, is like suggesting that Hitler may have lost World War 2 because he was too nice.

    It’s more like suggesting Eddie the Eagle didn’t quit after his first tournament because he might have been the best ski jumper ever.

  139. avatar
    Yoda June 26, 2013 at 7:34 am #

    Hermitian: The Obots explain away the weird 1982 Hawaii law that allows the Director of Health to issue Hawaii birth certificates to foreign-born children by claiming that all the BCs issued under the law show the foreign country as the birth country instead of Hawaii. However no Obot has ever produced even one Hawaii birth certificate which shows a foreign country as the birthplace.

    Simple logic, which is all that Obots understand, would then dictate that all Hawaii birth certificates show Hawaii as the place of birth..

    That is not logic at all. Your conclusion assumes that people have looked for them or that they have the ability to obtain them. As has been pointed out many many times, Hawaiian laws do not allow BCs to be issued to just anyone.

    The reality is that Hawaiian laws, if you understand how to read them, mandate that the place of birth be on the BC. That would require that the BCs issued to foreign born children to list their place of birth. Zullo is either completely incompetent or flat out lied about this. But this is a humorous point anyway. Why would a statute passed in 1982 have anything to do the President’s BC from 1961. This is a typical birther failure.

  140. avatar
    Yoda June 26, 2013 at 7:38 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Birthers work backwards. In the normal world extraordinary claims require strong proof. For birthers ordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and extraordinary claims should be taken on the word of the birther.

    Birthers work backwards because they operate from inductive reasoning. They come to a conclusion and then look for evidence to support it.

  141. avatar
    Keith June 26, 2013 at 7:44 am #

    Yoda: That is not logic at all. Your conclusion assumes that people have looked for them or that they have the ability to obtain them. As has been pointed out many many times, Hawaiian laws do not allow BCs to be issued to just anyone.

    The disconnect here is that Hawai’i (or any state for that matter) does NOT issue BIRTH CERTIFICATES to foreign born children.

    They issue a CERTIFICATE OF FOREIGN BIRTH or some such wording, but NOT Birth Certificates.

  142. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 26, 2013 at 8:18 am #

    This article has been updated to add NBC’s appearance on RC Radio, which I recommend.

  143. avatar
    Hermitian June 26, 2013 at 9:38 am #

    W. Kevin Vicklund: It is important to remember that the WH LFBC background has been doubly compressed. It is not just a matter of reducing it from 300 dpi to 150 dpi. There is an additional compression step based on 8×8 blocks.

    Maybe that’s what you see with Preview but what I see with Adobe Products is a background at 150 PPI and 8 non-background layers at 300 PPI.

  144. avatar
    Hermitian June 26, 2013 at 9:44 am #

    Majority Will: Hermitian: There are a bunch of free PDF editiors for MAC OS. Here’s 10 that anyone can try.
    Taking Mac software advice from someone who doesn’t and won’t use a Mac is like taking advice on history and law from a delusional birther bigot.
    Both are utterly useless.

    Actually I purchased a brand new Apple 2E for home use. Now that was a real computer. And then Apple came out with the first MAC with that tiny B&W screen and screwed everything up.

  145. avatar
    Hermitian June 26, 2013 at 10:03 am #

    W. Kevin Vicklund: Hermitian: And then maybe you could explain why the two AP LFCOLB images have two double horizontal form lines but these lines are solid on the WH LFCOLB PDF?
    Maybe the problem is that you need to get your eyes checked. They are not solid on the WH LFCOLB PDF, at least not the whole length of the line. There are areas where there is a distinct double line for all *three* sets of the double horizontal lines, plus the one vertical line you failed to mention.

    My vision is fine according to my ophthalmologist.

    I know that all you Obots would rather that the Muscatine Journal’s PDF from Applewhite doesn’t exist. But it does and the pixel resolution is 120 PPI which is less than the 150 PPI for the background layer of the WH LFCOLB PDF.

    I measured the width of the horizontal lines (line) at the upper left corner of box 9 on both copies. The results are:

    1. Muscatine PDF = 0.025 @ 120 PPI

    2. WH LFCOLB PDF = 0.0133 @ 150 PPI

    I measured the vertical height between the upper and lower edges of the horizontal lines (line) for the darkest portion of the lines (line). The Muscatine double line width was three pixels at 120PPI. The WH LFCOLB thin single line width was two pixels at 150 PPI. Both measurements were taken at 6400% zoom.

  146. avatar
    The Magic M June 26, 2013 at 10:08 am #

    Yoda: Birthers work backwards because they operate from inductive reasoning. They come to a conclusion and then look for evidence to support it.

    Not just that, they are tied up in circular arguments.

    E.g. they start with the assumption that, somehow, Obama’s “legal name” once was “Barry Soetoro” and then claim since there is no evidence of changing the name “back” to “Barack Obama”, the former is still his legal name – when of course they have no proof Obama ever legally changed his name to “Barry Soetoro” in the first place. (Besides an obsession over name changes is a moot argument anyway as the example of Bill Clinton shows. Birthers actually believe a Presidential election is invalid if you run under a different name.)

  147. avatar
    Hermitian June 26, 2013 at 10:11 am #

    Yoda: That is not logic at all. Your conclusion assumes that people have looked for them or that they have the ability to obtain them. As has been pointed out many many times, Hawaiian laws do not allow BCs to be issued to just anyone.
    The reality is that Hawaiian laws, if you understand how to read them, mandate that the place of birth be on the BC. That would require that the BCs issued to foreign born children to list their place of birth. Zullo is either completely incompetent or flat out lied about this. But this is a humorous point anyway. Why would a statute passed in 1982 have anything to do the President’s BC from 1961.

    I posted the Hawaii law on this very thread i.e. SS 338-17.8. The law does not mandate that the BC must show the name of the foreign country and not the State of Hawaii.

    You are the one that stated that Hawaii has a mandate. Prove it.

  148. avatar
    gorefan June 26, 2013 at 11:33 am #

    Hermitian: You are the one that stated that Hawaii has a mandate. Prove it.

    Section 338-11 requires the DOH to use the Standard Certificate of Live Birth and the items on it (as modified by the DOH). Every single Hawaiian BC has a box – Place of Birth.

    No birther has been able to produce a State of Hawaii issued BC that says the place of birth is Hawaii when in fact it was some other state or country.

    If such a State of Hawaii issued BC existed you would provide a link to it. You can’t because they don’t exist.

    “338-11 Form of certificates. The forms of certificates shall include as a minimum the items required by the respective standard certificates as recommended by the Public Health Service, National Center for Health Statistics, subject to approval of and modification by the department of health.”

    http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0011.htm

  149. avatar
    Majority Will June 26, 2013 at 11:33 am #

    Hermitian: Actually I purchased a brand new Apple 2E for home use.Now that was a real computer.And then Apple came out with the first MAC with that tiny B&W screen and screwed everything up.

    I think you’re lying. It’s Apple //e and Mac. That you’re stuck in the year 1984 speaks volumes.

    Your consistent and deliberate obtuseness must be integral to being a hardcore birther bigot. You probably can’t tell the difference between the truth and lies.

    Here’s a terrific photo for you to enjoy:
    http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/barack-obama-re-elected-as-us-president-pg.jpg

  150. avatar
    Benji Franklin June 26, 2013 at 11:41 am #

    The Magic M: Yoda: Birthers work backwards because they operate from inductive reasoning. They come to a conclusion and then look for evidence to support it.

    Not just that, they are tied up in circular arguments.

    And not just additionally only that, they are hermetically sealed off from case-related disappointments by the kind of never-ending and infinitely elastic denials of reality one can only proffer if they have kidnapped the goalposts.

    If God appeared, and in conjunction with ending our physical reality, melting down the Universe, and completing the populating of Heaven and Hell, happened to definitively announce that Obama was indeed a Natural Born Citizen as required by the Framers, Birthers like Hermy and John would say things like, “Really? The real God would show up and reveal himself on a Tuesday? And have time to comment on Obama’s eligibility? I don’t think so. or ” I think it’s interesting that God didn’t put this in writing……. Oh, he did? Hmmmmm. Okay, well then it’s even more telling that he only said it all in that booming voice, and wrote it all down on paper instead chiseling it into stone….. Oh, he did that too? Hmmmm. Okay, well then why didn’t he chisel it in stone twice?”

  151. avatar
    nbc June 26, 2013 at 12:02 pm #

    Hermitian: You are the one that stated that Hawaii has a mandate. Prove it.

    I showed the text of the AG’s special assistant…

    Regarding the latest allegations from a sheriff in Arizona, they are untrue, misinformed, and misconstrue Hawaii law.

    The purpose of section 338-17.8, Hawaii Revised Statutes (HRS), is to accommodate foreign-born individuals whose parents were residents of Hawaii but were temporarily outside of this state due to employment or military service. Similar to section 338-20.5, HRS, which provides for a certificate of foreign birth, anyone who receives a birth certificate under this section would have noted on their birth certificate the physical location of their actual birth. It does not confer citizenship, which is, of course, a power of the federal government.

    We also note that section 338-17.8 was not passed until 1982, so it cannot apply to President Obama, who was born at the Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital in Honolulu in 1961, as is reflected on his certificate of live birth, a copy of which can be viewed on the White House website, a link to which is provided on DOH’s website.

    Vital records in Hawaii have some of the highest levels of privacy protection in the nation. Not only are Hawaii’s vital records some of the best managed, but they also have some of the strongest restrictions on access to prevent identity theft and fraud.

    Joshua A. Wisch is the Special Assistant to the Attorney General for the State of Hawaii

    Poor Hermitian… So without any logic or reason

  152. avatar
    nbc June 26, 2013 at 12:05 pm #

    Hermitian: I know that all you Obots would rather that the Muscatine Journal’s PDF from Applewhite doesn’t exist. But it does and the pixel resolution is 120 PPI which is less than the 150 PPI for the background layer of the WH LFCOLB PDF.

    And as I have shown the quality of the AP one is higher than the one of the WH LFBC

    Poor Hermitian, now that we have shown that there is no reason to conclude fraud, he returns to other foolish arguments.

    Love it… Still unwilling to accept that we have shown how the CCP was wrong in its assessment.

    If only they had been more diligent.

  153. avatar
    nbc June 26, 2013 at 12:06 pm #

    Yoda: The reality is that Hawaiian laws, if you understand how to read them, mandate that the place of birth be on the BC. That would require that the BCs issued to foreign born children to list their place of birth. Zullo is either completely incompetent or flat out lied about this. But this is a humorous point anyway. Why would a statute passed in 1982 have anything to do the President’s BC from 1961. This is a typical birther failure.

    Exactly… They see something they believe is relevant and forget reason and logic. The end result is invariably a foolish position.

  154. avatar
    Majority Will June 26, 2013 at 12:09 pm #

    nbc: I showed the text of the AG’s special assistant…

    Joshua A. Wisch is the Special Assistant to the Attorney General for the State of Hawaii

    Poor Hermitian… So without any logic or reason

    Not only that but showing a hardcore birther bigot physical evidence even certified from the state would only result in immediate cries of forgery and fraud. 100% guaranteed.

    It’s like trying to reason with a heavily medicated, mentally challenged sociopath.

  155. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater June 26, 2013 at 12:14 pm #

    Hermitian: I posted the Hawaii law on this very thread i.e. SS 338-17.8. The law does not mandate that the BC must show the name of the foreign country and not the State of Hawaii.You are the one that stated that Hawaii has a mandate. Prove it.

    SS 338-17.8 was passed in 1982 and has no relevance to Obama. You said a law existed in 1961 so what law was that? Also using Henry logic the law says nothing about foreign birth children it just says outside the state or territory of Hawaii.

  156. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater June 26, 2013 at 12:17 pm #

    Majority Will: Not only that but showing a hardcore birther bigot physical evidence even certified from the state would only result in immediate cries of forgery and fraud. 100% guaranteed. It’s like trying to reason with a heavily medicated, mentally challenged sociopath.

    He’ll just use tradejack logic. You can’t trust the state at one time someone somewhere in some state forged a document therefore all documents must be forged. These same people claim they want the original yet don’t trust the issuing authority who issues the original.

  157. avatar
    Majority Will June 26, 2013 at 12:45 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: He’ll just use tradejack logic.You can’t trust the state at one time someone somewhere in some state forged a document therefore all documents must be forged.These same people claim they want the original yet don’t trust the issuing authority who issues the original.

    What a truly sad and pathetic way to go through life.

  158. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund June 26, 2013 at 12:51 pm #

    Hermitian: My vision is fine according to my ophthalmologist.

    I know that all you Obots would rather that the Muscatine Journal’s PDF from Applewhite doesn’t exist.But it does and the pixel resolution is 120 PPI which is less than the 150 PPI for the background layer of the WH LFCOLB PDF.

    I measured the width of the horizontal lines (line) at the upper left corner of box 9 on both copies.The results are:

    1. Muscatine PDF = 0.025 @ 120 PPI

    2. WH LFCOLB PDF = 0.0133 @ 150 PPI

    I measured the vertical height between the upper and lower edges of the horizontal lines (line) for the darkest portion of the lines (line).The Muscatine double line width was three pixels at 120PPI.The WH LFCOLB thin single line width was two pixels at 150 PPI.Both measurements were taken at 6400% zoom.

    Did you bother to measure the length of those lines? In the WH pdf, the line is about 6.3″ long. In the “AP white” it’s about 8.6″ long. The scale of the “AP white” is bigger by 30%. This is sufficient to overcome the apparent resolution. The effective resolution of the “AP white” is ~164 dpi. The WH pdf actually has a lower resolution.

    Also, you are cherry-picking your point of comparison and method of comparison. The lighter grey should be considered part of the line. THe problem, of course, is that the thickness and separation of the lines are right at the edge of the resolution. At 164 dpi, there is usually (but not always) sufficient separation to see two distinct lines. At 150 dpi, there is usually (but not always) insufficient separation to see two distinct lines.

  159. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund June 26, 2013 at 12:57 pm #

    Hermitian: Maybe that’s what you see with Preview but what I see with Adobe Products is a background at 150 PPI and 8 non-background layers at 300 PPI.

    There is more to compression than reducing the resolution. Thank you for proving my point that you don’t understand compression.

  160. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 26, 2013 at 1:04 pm #

    Hermitian:

    Read the Hawaii Administrative Rules… The Administrative Rules for the Hawaii Department of Health (which is part of Hawaiian Law) require that parents submit the place of birth (country of birth), and that the place of birth be on the birth certificate.

    You can read them here. http://gen.doh.hawaii.gov/sites/har/AdmRules1/11-120.pdf

    Then we also have statements from the Hawaii Attorney General’s Office, and the Hawaii Department of Health that state that it would show the actual place of birth.

    What you want us to believe is that despite the Hawaii Department of Health knowing the Place of Birth being a foreign country, that they issue birth certificates stating that the child was born in Hawaii. That is an extraordinary claim, and one that requires proof to back it up. Show us three examples of someone, since the law was passed, getting a birth certificate under this law, which states that the place of birth is Hawaii, despite them being born in a foreign country.

  161. avatar
    The Magic M (not logged in) June 26, 2013 at 1:29 pm #

    Benji Franklin: If God appeared, and in conjunction with ending our physical reality, melting down the Universe, and completing the populating of Heaven and Hell, happened to definitively announce that Obama was indeed a Natural Born Citizen as required by the Framers, Birthers like Hermy and John would say things like

    “He’s lying because he doesn’t want to lose his black and Democrat followers.” 😉

    Hermitian: The law does not mandate that the BC must show the name of the foreign country and not the State of Hawaii.

    The law mandates that vital records record “facts” and are “true and correct”. Can’t argue against that.

  162. avatar
    nbc June 26, 2013 at 1:32 pm #

    W. Kevin Vicklund: There is more to compression than reducing the resolution. Thank you for proving my point that you don’t understand compression.

    Excellent point I have been trying to make as well. Perhaps Hermitian does not understand how JPEG compression works, but reduction in resolution is not the only way. Any introductory text on jpeg compression could benefit our friend here.

    And then he should realize that the WH was compressed at 47% quality versus the 66% for the AP document.

    Hermitian’s only hope is now that the AP document somehow shows lines the WH document does not show separated… I’d say that the goalposts are moving fast and in the wrong direction…

    Notice how hard it is for Hermitian to even accept the recent findings as having rebutted the CCP’s claims about forgery and the PDF…

    Quite telling and even somewhat hilarious.

  163. avatar
    Jim June 26, 2013 at 1:32 pm #

    john:
    Mike Zullo welcomes any Obot or any person for that matter to come to the CCP office and with scanner equipment produce all of the anolmolies found in Obama’s birth certificate.Now that the equipment has been identified, this should be an easy challenge.Are you Doc, NBC or Vicklund ready to take on the challenge.What’s say you?

    Poor, poor John. When he finds out that Arpaio and Zullo have been working for the President since before the election, he’s going to need to up his medication. Amazing how the birthers think we can intimidate and bribe judges, congresspeople, Supreme Court justices…but don’t think we can get to a Podunk County Sheriff and his volunteer make-believe deputy.

  164. avatar
    nbc June 26, 2013 at 1:34 pm #

    The Magic M (not logged in): The law mandates that vital records record “facts” and are “true and correct”. Can’t argue against that.

    Do not confuse Hermitian with facts and logic. He is still unable to show any support for his claims… And blames others.

  165. avatar
    nbc June 26, 2013 at 2:28 pm #

    Jim: Poor, poor John. When he finds out that Arpaio and Zullo have been working for the President since before the election, he’s going to need to up his medication. Amazing how the birthers think we can intimidate and bribe judges, congresspeople, Supreme Court justices…but don’t think we can get to a Podunk County Sheriff and his volunteer make-believe deputy.

    ROTFL.. Well, as is the case with Orly, their fumblings could be interpreted as such.. Very funny.

  166. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater June 26, 2013 at 2:30 pm #

    Jim: Poor, poor John. When he finds out that Arpaio and Zullo have been working for the President since before the election, he’s going to need to up his medication. Amazing how the birthers think we can intimidate and bribe judges, congresspeople, Supreme Court justices…but don’t think we can get to a Podunk County Sheriff and his volunteer make-believe deputy.

    Does he expect someone to load a xerox workstation into a panel van and drive out to Arpaio’s office? Make sure you don’t have any funny names either

  167. avatar
    Hermitian June 26, 2013 at 2:47 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater: SS 338-17.8 was passed in 1982 and has no relevance to Obama. You said a law existed in 1961 so what law was that? Also using Henry logic the law says nothing about foreign birth children it just says outside the state or territory of Hawaii.

    SS 338-17.8 would apply to Obama if he first applied for an original Hawaii birth certificate in 2007. Since he has never released even a certified copy — much less the original — then we don’t know.

    Prior to 1982 there was Hawaii Statute 57 which dates to 1955.

    See: http://www.scribd.com/doc/24948817/Joint-Motion-with-HI-Territorial-Law-57

    “MOTION TO TAKE JUDICIAL NOTICE OF HAWAIIAN TERRITORIAL STATUTES,THE REVISED LAWS OF HAWAII, CHAPTER 57,
    “VITAL STATISTICS, I” AND THEIR EFFECT”
    “John D. Hemenway”

    There is also: http://gen.doh.hawaii.gov/sites/har/AdmRules1/8%208A%20B%20VR%20Admin%20Rules.pdf

    “Hawaiian birth certificate” means a birth registered on a delayed basis
    for persons one year of age or older prior to repeal of Section 338-41,
    Hawaii Revised Statutes, by Act 66, Session Laws 1972.”

  168. avatar
    G June 26, 2013 at 3:21 pm #

    Good analogy for dealing with these types of delusional hate-based people.

    Majority Will: Not only that but showing a hardcore birther bigot physical evidence even certified from the state would only result in immediate cries of forgery and fraud. 100% guaranteed.

    It’s like trying to reason with a heavily medicated, mentally challenged sociopath.

  169. avatar
    nbc June 26, 2013 at 5:19 pm #

    Hermitian: “Hawaiian birth certificate” means a birth registered on a delayed basis
    for persons one year of age or older prior to repeal of Section 338-41,
    Hawaii Revised Statutes, by Act 66, Session Laws 1972.”

    Nothing to do with those born abroad… And no, Obama did not file a delayed birth certificate, that we know for sure…

    1. Signature by Sinclair and filing a few days after his birth
    2. Birth announcements.

    You have not much do you?… Keep digging you are doing fine, we may even throw you a ladder after you hit bedrock…

  170. avatar
    nbc June 26, 2013 at 5:26 pm #

    My goodness sakes, he has bought into the Hemenway argument in Hollister… Why did he not look at the original document before looking foolish again?

    So hilarious.

  171. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 26, 2013 at 5:28 pm #

    Besides stating the obvious, that there were vital statistics laws before 1982 in Hawaii, the citation of Section 57, with which I am well familiar, adds little to the discussion, and does noting to support your fantasies. The legal brief by Hemenway to which it is attached, twists what the law says beyond recognition.

    Section 57-8 states:

    Within the time prescribed by the board, a certificate of every birth shall be filed with the local registrar of the district in which the birth occurred, by the physician, midwife or other legally authorized person in attendance at the birth; or if not so attended, by one of the parents.

    From the preceding it is obvious that the authority for registration is for births which occur within a district of Hawaii. Hemenway seems to think that it is significant that a birth can be registered when no doctor or midwife is present, but of course all jurisdictions issue certificates for unattended births. Obama, as verified by the State of Hawaii, was born in a hospital attended by Dr. David Sinclair.

    Prior to 1982 there was no provision in Hawaiian law for the registration of persons born outside the state to Hawaiian residents.

    I give you credit for showing up, but that is more than overridden by the failure to make a point or to admit that you were wrong.

    So you’re still banned, and but for Northland10’s request, I wouldn’t have published this comment.

    Hermitian: SS 338-17.8 would apply to Obama if he first applied for an original Hawaii birth certificate in 2007. Since he has never released even a certified copy — much less the original — then we don’t know.

    Prior to 1982 there was Hawaii Statute 57 which dates to 1955.

  172. avatar
    Reality Check June 26, 2013 at 5:34 pm #

    Fixed it for you John.

    john:
    The CCP is well-aware of the AP BC but is not prepared to release their findings and conclusions on it just yet because they haven’t had time to cook up a bunch of lame-assed lies to try to explain it.The CCP has indicated that there are just too many anolmies [sic] in the BC not withstanding any supposed claim of the identity of the scanner or printer that created the document.It is the CCP’s 100% conclusion that the PDF BC is a computer manfactured[sic] creation. This was their conclusion before they did any “investigation and it has not and will not change despite anything that is discovered.In fact the CCP has indicated their findings do indicate that Adobe Photoshop was among one of the programs used to create the document.But of course he will not tell you how and what programs were used to “create” the document because they don’t have a clue.I believe Mike Zullo said this a previous interview. He also said lots of other things that turned out to be lies.

  173. avatar
    gorefan June 26, 2013 at 6:26 pm #

    Hermitian: SS 338-17.8 would apply to Obama if he first applied for an original Hawaii birth certificate in 2007. Since he has never released even a certified copy — much less the original — then we don’t know.

    Dr. Onaka has verified that the “Name of Hospital” box on the original birth certificate says “Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital”. Now all you need to do is find another hospital with that name in Kenya.

  174. avatar
    Daniel June 26, 2013 at 6:36 pm #

    Hermitian: I see you’re back again, so I’m reposting this in the faint hope that you’ll have the intestinal fortitude to actually address the questions. Really faint hope…

    Hermitian…. I see you’ve made a whole bunch more posts, yet you still avoid my questions. If they’re too hard for you, just say so, OK?

    I’m posting these questions again, just in case you may have “honestly” missed them.

    How about you explaining why anyone would forge a document with all the same information as the original?

    Or maybe you could explain why anyone would bother to “forge” a pdf when it wouldn’t matter even if Obama had copied the certified document in crayon and wax paper and ironed it to the White House window? Why forge a PDF, when a PDF simply doesn’t matter?

    Or maybe you could explain how Obama is rich and powerful enough to spend billions or trillions of dollars buying off or threatening literally hundreds of thousands of people, effectively enough to ensure that not one of those hundreds of thousands of people would ever utter a word about what they know…. but somehow he doesn’t have enough money left over to hire a competent forger, good enough to fool a bunch of barbers and cab drivers and retired nutbags?

  175. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG June 26, 2013 at 8:17 pm #

    Hermitian: SS 338-17.8 would apply to Obama IF…

    Like most birther arguments, the linchpin of yours is a far-fetched, “if”.
    Honestly, I don’t know why Doc keeps letting you come back, he’s a bigger man like that.

  176. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater June 26, 2013 at 9:12 pm #

    Hermitian: SS 338-17.8 would apply to Obama if he first applied for an original Hawaii birth certificate in 2007.Since he has never released even a certified copy — much less the original — then we don’t know.

    Prior to 1982 there was Hawaii Statute 57 which dates to 1955.

    See:http://www.scribd.com/doc/24948817/Joint-Motion-with-HI-Territorial-Law-57

    “MOTION TO TAKE JUDICIAL NOTICE OF HAWAIIAN TERRITORIAL STATUTES,THE REVISED LAWS OF HAWAII, CHAPTER 57,“VITAL STATISTICS, I” AND THEIR EFFECT”
    “John D. Hemenway”

    There is also: http://gen.doh.hawaii.gov/sites/har/AdmRules1/8%208A%20B%20VR%20Admin%20Rules.pdf

    “Hawaiian birth certificate” means a birth registered on a delayed basis
    for persons one year of age or older prior to repeal of Section 338-41,
    Hawaii Revised Statutes, by Act 66, Session Laws 1972.”

    1. Sorry no the 1982 law doesn’t allow him to have a BC registered in 2007 considering the issuing date was back in 1961.

    2. No that other law doesn’t apply since there was no delayed registration. So two laws that have no application.

  177. avatar
    Monkey Boy June 27, 2013 at 12:40 am #

    Daniel: How about you explain some of those things Hermy? But you’ll ignore them again like you always do. Birthers don’t like to deal with the hard questions.

    I’m STILL waiting for Hermie to tell us which other Presidents’ birth certifications he has viewed.

    Typical birfer blowhard.

  178. avatar
    Joey June 27, 2013 at 2:08 am #

    Let’s not forget the further corroboration of President Obama’s birth provided by the August 31, 1961 Immigration and Naturalization Service student visa extension interview of Barack Obama Senior. The INS agent William Wood documents Barack Senior as stating that he has a son born in Honolulu on August 4, 1961.

  179. avatar
    The Magic M June 27, 2013 at 4:31 am #

    john: The CCP has indicated that there are just too many anolmies in the BC

    Even if there were 5,000 “anolmies” and no other BC contained any of these 5,000 “anolmies”, it still wouldn’t prove forgery. You’d have to find at least one “anolmy” that conclusively proves forgery. (As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, a typical example would be an anachronism, but the CCP seems to have abandoned trying to argue the “Race: African” issue; or a number out of sequence, but it seems that one died, too, after WND “interviewed” Verna Lee.)

    And that’s why some birthers are in their own personal hell now. Lucas Smith spends his days finding hundreds of misspellings to exonerate his “Kenyan BC” forgery where the signing manager misspells his own name. I guess the CCP has given up trying to find a Hawaiian BC with an African (not African-American) parent stating “Negro” as race.

    Zullo on the other hand has started resorting to “secret evidence” that will either “blow the whole thing open” or not, but which he won’t show you birthers if his life depended on it. Which is kinda snake-oily if (a) he says his “evidence” is so good it would convince even the greatest doubter (so why doesn’t he release it so we Obots can be converted?) and (b) he always claims that only the “court of public opinion” can do anything yet he withholds his “evidence” from said court. How do you explain *that*, john?

  180. avatar
    US Citizen June 27, 2013 at 6:29 am #

    This might be slightly OT, but a quote posted below made me think of the birthers.

    “I will tell you I don’t believe in the supernatural, I believe in the supernormal. To me there is nothing that goes against nature. If it seems incomprehensible, it’s only because we haven’t been able to understand it yet.”

    – Recently deceased author, Richard Matheson

  181. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG June 27, 2013 at 8:56 am #

    john:
    The CCP has indicated that there are just too many anolmies in the BC

    And if the CCP told you to jump off a bridge, would you?
    Hold that thought. I have to go write Zullo a letter.

  182. avatar
    JD Reed June 27, 2013 at 11:58 am #

    The Magic M: Even if there were 5,000 “anolmies” and no other BC contained any of these 5,000 “anolmies”, it still wouldn’t prove forgery. You’d have to find at least one “anolmy” that conclusively proves forgery. (As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, a typical example would be an anachronism, but the CCP seems to have abandoned trying to argue the “Race: African” issue; or a number out of sequence, but it seems that one died, too, after WND “interviewed” Verna Lee.)And that’s why some birthers are in their own personal hell now. Lucas Smith spends his days finding hundreds of misspellings to exonerate his “Kenyan BC” forgery where the signing manager misspells his own name. I guess the CCP has given up trying to find a Hawaiian BC with an African (not African-American) parent stating “Negro” as race.Zullo on the other hand has started resorting to “secret evidence” that will either “blow the whole thing open” or not, but which he won’t show you birthers if his life depended on it. Which is kinda snake-oily if (a) he says his “evidence” is so good it would convince even the greatest doubter (so why doesn’t he release it so we Obots can be converted?) and (b) he always claims that only the “court of public opinion” can do anything yet he withholds his “evidence” from said court. How do you explain *that*, john?

    John never explains. He just lurches from one easily debunked claim to another, hoping I supposed that one will finally turn out to be the Holy Grail of Birtherstan..

  183. avatar
    nbc June 27, 2013 at 12:27 pm #

    john: It is the CCP’s 100% conclusion that the PDF BC is a computer manfactured creation.

    And they are wrong 100%. What now?

  184. avatar
    nbc June 27, 2013 at 12:56 pm #

    What I find so shocking is that many of the so called artifacts in the PDF disappear on the AP or Guthrie pictures, thus showing how they were likely created by compression. But the CCP had a single minded track and has now found out how such a confirmation bias may have led to a false conclusion.
    As far as I can tell right now, 99% of these anomalies can be explained by a simple workflow.

    Shocking…? You be the judge, I am merely observing how their efforts have failed to make a case… Legally speaking there was never a foundation and even congress and the so-called ‘chief of police’ of a one person police force has come to reject Zullo and his posse, after initially embracing them.

    Failure after failure after failure, such is the inevitable nature of those who suffer from a confirmation bias and therefore let their conclusions guide their interpretations.

  185. avatar
    nbc June 27, 2013 at 1:00 pm #

    The Magic M: Zullo on the other hand has started resorting to “secret evidence” that will either “blow the whole thing open” or not, but which he won’t show you birthers if his life depended on it. Which is kinda snake-oily if (a) he says his “evidence” is so good it would convince even the greatest doubter (so why doesn’t he release it so we Obots can be converted?) and (b) he always claims that only the “court of public opinion” can do anything yet he withholds his “evidence” from said court. How do you explain *that*, john?

    There are no good explanations beyond the simple realization that Zullo and his ‘investigation’ have failed… The good news is that recent research has shown that the worries of Sheriff Arpaio that the document was fraudulent are likely overblown and exaggerated. He wanted to show that the PDF was not fraudulent and his posse failed him, but others, undeterred by the superficial analyses, have now shown how most of the artifacts can be explained by a simple work flow.
    The funny part is that the posse was made aware of many of the details of the work flow but failed to properly follow up on the gained information.

  186. avatar
    scott e June 27, 2013 at 1:38 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    The CCP expert, as far as anyone knows, is not an expert in the internals of electronic documents, nor has his report even been published. As for speculation, I should remind you that Mike Zullo himself said that they have no evidence of any crime.

    could you please link me to that doc ??

  187. avatar
    scott e June 27, 2013 at 1:49 pm #

    nbc: Nope and neither am I or several others who uncovered what the so called ‘experts’ could not find.
    By focusing on the ad hominem you have voided any credibility you may have had left.

    Are these findings that hard to refute? Let me ask you: Why did the CCP not look at the raw embedded data?

    And why did they ignore the Guthrie and AP documents?

    So much ignorance and hand waving can now be explained with real evidence that show that the forger was a lone xerox Workcentre, unaware of the confusion it has caused amongst those with a confirmation bias about our President’s birth.

    confirmation bias seems like a cop out expression, is it just for us ?

  188. avatar
    scott e June 27, 2013 at 1:51 pm #

    Indo:
    You spend all this effort arguing about shadows.

    You may be right, or you may be wrong about what the shadows show.

    The fact that the real docs stay hidden and protected from scrutiny is the best evidence something’s very very wrong.

    well said. why all this going after crazy people. the antibirthers are too well organized, to tenacious and smart to justify the time and energy spent, imho.

  189. avatar
    scott e June 27, 2013 at 2:01 pm #

    nbc: Joshua A. Wisch is the Special Assistant to the Attorney General for the State of Hawaii

    Poor Hermitian still has to explain why the birth was witnessed by the attending physician in a Hawaiian hospital and filed soon thereafter.

    Logic has never been his strong point though.

    were queens or kapiolani teaching hospitals ?

  190. avatar
    nbc June 27, 2013 at 2:18 pm #

    scott e: were queens or kapiolani teaching hospitals ?

    You have internet access, don’t you? How hard could it be to do the research?

  191. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 27, 2013 at 2:20 pm #

    Well organized? Antibirthers aren’t organized, and as for time and energy, my neighbor puts a lot more time and energy into bass fishing.

    scott e: well said. why all this going after crazy people. the antibirthers are too well organized, to tenacious and smart to justify the time and energy spent, imho.

  192. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 27, 2013 at 2:23 pm #

    No, confirmation bias is a problem for everyone, myself included. Some people, however, don’t recognize the problem and don’t correct for it.

    scott e: confirmation bias seems like a cop out expression, is it just for us ?

  193. avatar
    nbc June 27, 2013 at 2:28 pm #

    scott e: confirmation bias seems like a cop out expression, is it just for us ?

    When all effort was made to find artifacts and little effort to understand them, then yes, confirmation bias makes for a good explanation.
    They never really did much effort to understand the PDF all the way down to its raw data, and instead insisted that all these features, which I and others predicted could be explained by compression algorithms and a simple workflow, were somehow evidence of fraud, even though they never really explained how or why a forger would make these artifacts…

    In order to avoid confirmation bias you approach it from the opposite side. Claiming that the effort was to debunk fraud claims are just too silly for consideration this was from the start an ‘investigation’ to appease the birthers, at least that’s how I see it. Arpaio is no longer interested… He got re-elected…

  194. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 27, 2013 at 2:30 pm #

    The larger quote is:

    Taitz “doesn’t understand what jurisdiction means” because Obama “has not committed a crime in Maricopa County or the state of Arizona regarding his Social Security number,” I know [Taitz] had 20-some-odd court cases on this very issue and maybe now she’s feeling very threatened,” Zullo said. “There is not enough evidence to convict him on jaywalking… let alone anything else.”

    It was reported by the Huffington Post

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/07/orly-taitz-mike-zullo_n_3402725.html

    and supposedly came from Zullo’s recent interview with Carl Gallups.

    scott e: could you please link me to that doc ??

  195. avatar
    nbc June 27, 2013 at 2:36 pm #

    scott e: could you please link me to that doc ??

    Having a compressed PDF of your birth certificate is hardly a crime and now that the spectre of fraud has been totally removed, I wonder of what other ‘crimes’ the CCP believes Obama to be guilty…

    They have already abandoned the hope of any criminal investigation…

  196. avatar
    nbc June 27, 2013 at 2:41 pm #

    scott e: well said. why all this going after crazy people. the antibirthers are too well organized, to tenacious and smart to justify the time and energy spent, imho.

    Other than a loosely coupled bunch of people with similar interests, there appears to be little ‘organization’ amongst antibirthers.

    They do have the tenacity to get their hands dirty in researching the many myths of the birthers, who so easily spread nonsense without any attempt to confirm…

    It took me a weekend to find the ‘forger’ of the PDF. Lots of fun as I learned a lot about PDF and jpeg encoding.

    A weekend well spent, debunking and learning… A great combination. It was a pretty minor mystery but those are the most fun…

  197. avatar
    Majority Will June 27, 2013 at 2:43 pm #

    “The fact that the real docs stay hidden and protected from scrutiny is the best evidence something’s very very wrong.”

    It’s actually despicable and credible evidence of a birther bigot’s complete lack of respect for our Constitution and our laws.

  198. avatar
    The European June 27, 2013 at 2:44 pm #

    There is an interesting sidestory:

    NBC published on June 26 this
    http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/a-walk-through-history/
    and gave lots of credits to our well known gsgs. NBC called this
    http://letsrollforums.com/birth-certificate-analysis-t28401.html?s=05bb782e26390704489772970c1160d4&
    ” one of my inspirations”.

    Now this is what gsgs had to say before he began with his analysis.


    I started it here:
    http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=73&sid=fc5b0bb00d65e232e15cba6a19c 9387f
    and obamabirthbook.com
    http://www.obamabirthbook.com/http:/www.obamabirthbook.com/2011/07/announcement-upcoming-release/comment-page-1/#comment-5412
    and obamaconspiracy.org
    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/07/the-cadwaladr-file/
    but they don’t want it.

    Maybe someone owes gsgs something.

  199. avatar
    richCares June 27, 2013 at 3:15 pm #

    “were queens or kapiolani teaching hospitals ?”
    .
    both were Queen’s Hospitals
    Queen Emma’s Hospital
    Queen Kapiolani’s Hospital
    so they were often confused

  200. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 27, 2013 at 3:23 pm #

    Off of the top of my head, there’s this quotation:

    “There is not enough evidence to convict him on jaywalking… let alone anything else.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/07/orly-taitz-mike-zullo_n_3402725.html

  201. avatar
    nbc June 27, 2013 at 3:41 pm #

    The European: Maybe someone owes gsgs something.

    I personally owe him my gratitude for having started are solid and detailed analysis of the raw data, which has been very helpful to me.
    His initial posting style was a bit abrasive to me and I and others may not have been immediately warm to his findings, however, his contribution is one which is essential in overcoming tunnel vision, and we should not be afraid where the data leads us, even if we do not immediately understand it.

    It was gsgs who showed that even in a PDF touched by Preview, known for cleaning up many metadata, one can find telltale signs that require an explanation.

    It has been quite a learning experience and once I realized what gsgs was talking about, I found his findings fundamental to solving the puzzle. In fact, based on gsgs’s work I concluded that the likelihood that the pdf’s artifacts were algorithmic in nature, resulting from a simple workflow, was quite high.

    Recent nagging concerns that we have not been able to identify the hardware/software that generated the PDF, I decided to do what gsgs had done: a step by step analysis of how the PDF was created and of the data embedded in the PDF.

    In retrospect, several people already had pointed to the Xerox WorkCentre and it was serendipity that led me to a lucky find, thanks in a large part to Kevin Vicklund’s reminders about Xerox WorkCentre and the Xerox Patents in this area.

    I believe that I personally do owe gsgs an apology, in spite of his somewhat irritating posting style, and would like to let him/her know that from my perspective the work done by her/him was essential in strengthening the arguments of a simple workflow.

  202. avatar
    nbc June 27, 2013 at 3:42 pm #

    richCares: so they were often confused

    As they were in at least one report, leading birthers to doubt the actual event…. Minor mysteries can be explained by simple error rather than elaborate conspiracies… Most conspiracies suffer from this.

    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don’t rule out malice.

  203. avatar
    Whatever4 June 27, 2013 at 3:44 pm #

    scott e: well said. why all this going after crazy people. the antibirthers are too well organized, to tenacious and smart to justify the time and energy spent, imho.

    Meh, it’s a hobby. I used to debunk urban legends. This is just a specialized UL.

  204. avatar
    nbc June 27, 2013 at 3:45 pm #

    Oh and more about gsgs, rather than relying on commercial tools, he went down to the nitty gritty details, writing his own software, doing many analyses. I have always been a little annoyed by his skills and determination 🙂

  205. avatar
    ellen June 27, 2013 at 4:04 pm #

    The latest insanity on birther sites is the claim that Obama is going to order military chaplains to perform homosexual marriages. http://www.westernjournalism.com/obama-to-force-chaplains-to-perform-gay-marriages/#comment-216106

    Sadly, the nuts believe that fabrication, just as they believed that Obama had said that he wanted to close Catholic schools (which never happened either).

    It has been said that birther sites are mainly motivated by the desire to make money and are simply confused about Obama’s birth certificate and the meaning of Natural Born Citizen. But, in my opinion, this trend to fabricate incendiary lies is evidence that their real motive is evil and violent.

  206. avatar
    nbc June 27, 2013 at 5:37 pm #

    It’s all about fear. Creating fear and then those poor souls who will be afraid of anything, especially rumors.

  207. avatar
    Rickey June 27, 2013 at 5:51 pm #

    scott e: confirmation bias seems like a cop out expression, is it just for us ?

    As Doc says, everyone is subject to confirmation bias. The difference is that some people allow themselves to be convinced by it, while others remain receptive to contradictory evidence.

    Take Benghazi, for example. When Gregory Hicks testified that Lt. Col. Gibson was ordered to “stand down” and not go to Benghazi, the Obama haters needed no further evidence to convince themselves that either Obama on Leon Panetta had give a “stand down order. They needed no further confirmation.

    My confirmation bias took me in a different direction. Having served in the military, I know that “stand down” means to do nothing, and we knew that Lt. Col. Gibson’s unit did no do nothing. The guarded the Embassy and they went to the Tripoli airport to provide first aid to survivors who were being flown in from Benghazi. So I believed that there was no “stand down” order by Obama or anyone else, but unlike the Obama haters I waited for more evidence.

    Now we know the truth. Lt. Col. Gibson testified before the House Armed Services Committee yesterday, and he stated without equivocation that there was never a “stand down” order. He was told that his unit was needed to protect the Embassy in Tripoli and his men were sent to the Tripoli airport to care for and protect the survivors. He also testified that his unit could not have gotten to Benghazi in time to make a difference.

    If Lt. Col. Gibson had testified that he was given “stand down” orders, I would like to think that I would have overcome my confirmation bias and admitted that I was mistaken. That is what sets me apart from birthers.

    http://azstarnet.com/news/national/govt-and-politics/officer-no-libya-stand-down-order/article_3ebd5c58-41ab-577c-98ac-331d752cc9c4.html

  208. avatar
    donna June 27, 2013 at 6:07 pm #

    Rickey:

    KUDOS!!! i have not had your military experience, but when i see something bizarre posted by the right, i search for the original source and look for confirmation by reliable sources

    there is no curiosity by some to search for the truth – as julia roberts said in “pretty women”, “The bad stuff is easier to believe. You ever notice that ? ”

    for some, the “bad stuff” about obama is ALL they believe

  209. avatar
    Keith June 27, 2013 at 6:38 pm #

    nbc: And they are wrong 100%. What now?

    Actually, no.

    I am quite sure the PDF is 100% computer generated.

    However the input to the computer was a scanned image taken from the actual legitimate birth certificate.

  210. avatar
    Majority Will June 27, 2013 at 6:42 pm #

    Rickey: As Doc says, everyone is subject to confirmation bias. The difference is that some people allow themselves to be convinced by it, while others remain receptive to contradictory evidence.

    Take Benghazi, for example. When Gregory Hicks testified that Lt. Col. Gibson was ordered to “stand down” and not go to Benghazi, the Obama haters needed no further evidence to convince themselves that either Obama on Leon Panetta had give a “stand down order. They needed no further confirmation.

    My confirmation bias took me in a different direction. Having served in the military, I know that “stand down” means to do nothing, and we knew that Lt. Col. Gibson’s unit did no do nothing. The guarded the Embassy and they went to the Tripoli airport to provide first aid to survivors who were being flown in from Benghazi. So I believed that there was no “stand down” order by Obama or anyone else, but unlike the Obama haters I waited for more evidence.

    Now we know the truth. Lt. Col. Gibson testified before the House Armed Services Committee yesterday, and he stated without equivocation that there was never a “stand down” order. He was told that his unit was needed to protect the Embassy in Tripoli and his men were sent to the Tripoli airport to care for and protect the survivors. He also testified that his unit could not have gotten to Benghazi in time to make a difference.

    If Lt. Col. Gibson had testified that he was given “stand down” orders, I would like to think that I would have overcome my confirmation bias and admitted that I was mistaken. That is what sets me apart from birthers.

    http://azstarnet.com/news/national/govt-and-politics/officer-no-libya-stand-down-order/article_3ebd5c58-41ab-577c-98ac-331d752cc9c4.html

    And it’s a safe bet that your words just fell on deaf birther bigot ears.

  211. avatar
    Rickey June 27, 2013 at 9:41 pm #

    donna:

    there is no curiosity by some to search for the truth – as julia roberts said in “pretty women”, “The bad stuff is easier to believe. You ever notice that ? ”

    for some, the “bad stuff” about obama is ALL they believe

    Exactly. I see it every day on Facebook. The latest was them swallowing the ridiculous rumor that the immigration bill is going to provide free cars to college students who need summer jobs. Heck, it would make more sense to pay kids for not working in the summer.

  212. avatar
    Hermitian June 27, 2013 at 10:33 pm #

    nbc: Neither have the birthers, who have to show that somehow the location would not represent, as the DOH has insisted, the actual birth place.

    Federal law mandates that the place of birth is the mother’s place of residence at the time of birth.

  213. avatar
    Hermitian June 27, 2013 at 10:43 pm #

    nbc: Arpaio is no longer interested… He got re-elected…

    That’s funny because Arpaio is on PPSimmons tomorrow.

  214. avatar
    nbc June 28, 2013 at 12:12 am #

    Hermitian: That’s funny because Arpaio is on PPSimmons tomorrow.

    As I said he is not very interested. After all why has he not filed any criminal charges, why has he not handed off the investigation to the criminal arm of his own police force? Sure, Arpaio wants to appease the birthers but he will never be so foolish to take the CCP findings to anyone, certainly not now that the latest findings have totally destroyed the findings of the CCP about fraud and the birth certificate.

    Talk is cheap my friend…

    Arpaio should be happy that we now have shown that the birth certificate shows no longer signs of fraud? After all, was that not his stated goal?

  215. avatar
    donna June 28, 2013 at 12:14 am #

    in his previous radio appearance, arpaio said ““you know what the big problem is, nobody will touch it – i can’t give it to the justice department – we’re not done with it yet ….. all i wanted to know, is that a fraudulent document – i never said where was the president born – i just want to know about the birth certificate, a government document, from hawaii, sent to the white house, and distributed around the world by the white house – i just want to know if it’s a fake – what’s wrong with that?”

  216. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 28, 2013 at 12:14 am #

    I excepted the ban to comment on this.

    It appears to be something derived from that nonsense the appeared at the Daily Pen, amidst the altered and misrepresented documents that fooled Corsi and Zullo, and completely discredited them as any kind of objective (or even competent) investigators.

    For classification purposes, all residences for the mother are assigned to some US location. If the mother is not a US resident, then her residence is listed as the place of birth. It’s not the other way round.

    Your continuing stream of outright nonsense and false information is annoying and it wastes my time and the time of others who fruitlessly try to educate you.

    Hermitian: Federal law mandates that the place of birth is the mother’s place of residence at the time of birth.

  217. avatar
    nbc June 28, 2013 at 12:16 am #

    Hermitian: Federal law mandates that the place of birth is the mother’s place of residence at the time of birth.

    Sigh… Well, that would be Honolulu then…

    But why is it that you always make unsupported assertions? Is it so hard to provide the relevant statutes?

    And you are wrong. There are two locations: 1) legal residence of the mother 2) location of birth and the two are not necessarily the same.

    Sorry Hermitian, you really need to think before you speak… Or read…

    None of the laws really represent the 1981 law, and if so, Obama’s birth would not have been signed off by a physician in a Honolulu hospital, days after his birth.

    Sorry Hermitian, logic never will be a strong point to you.

    Vital records are state’s responsibilities, the federal government may try to standardize… But … Well.. facts

  218. avatar
    nbc June 28, 2013 at 12:21 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: For classification purposes, all residences for the mother are assigned to some US location. If the mother is not a US resident, then her residence is listed as the place of birth. It’s not the other way round.

    Hermitian continues to show himself to be quite ignorant. Oh the cost of confirmation bias and a laziness to do proper research…

    The poor soul…

  219. avatar
    nbc June 28, 2013 at 12:22 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Your continuing stream of outright nonsense and false information is annoying and it wastes my time and the time of others who fruitlessly try to educate you.

    Yes, Hermitian has shown to have no interests in fact, logic or reason. Only ignorance continues to be fueled by his dislike of our President.

    And thus, time after time, he fails… Quite predictably…

  220. avatar
    BillTheCat June 28, 2013 at 1:06 am #

    Hawaii confirmed the facts of his birth, and that’s all that matters, period. Too bad, so sad, birther buddies.

  221. avatar
    justlw June 28, 2013 at 2:05 am #

    Comments on this blog over a year ago suggested Xerox WorkCentre equipment.

    I’ve gotta say it warms my heart to have even this tiny a footnote in the chronicle.

    UPDATE: I now have a much better scanner. It still doesn’t have MRC, though.

  222. avatar
    gorefan June 28, 2013 at 2:51 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: For classification purposes

    nbc: Is it so hard to provide the relevant statutes?

    I think what he is talking about is this,

    “Place of residence in birth statistics refers to the geographic area which constituted the mother’s usual residence at the time of the birth.” page 5-5

    But that is, as Doc says, only for classification for statistical purposes. Thus Table 2-1 has this note “Unit of residence is defined as the county or county equivalent of which the mother was a resident”. So for Hawaii there were 17,578 births in 1961, 17508 were in Hawaiian counties that were the county of residence of the mother, 50 were Hawaiian counties that were not the county of residence of the mother and 20 were mothers who were from U.S. counties outside of the state of Hawaii.

    http://www.nber.org/vital-stats-books/vsus_1961_1.pdf

    He missed one critical detail:

    “Birth data for the United States are confined to events registered within the United States and include events occurring to nonresident aliens. The data do not cover any
    vital events for U.S. citizens occurring outside the United States.” page 5-3

  223. avatar
    The Magic M June 28, 2013 at 3:21 am #

    Hermitian: Federal law mandates that the place of birth is the mother’s place of residence at the time of birth.

    Now you are contradicting your hero Zullo who claims it’s only that “loophole in HI law” that would allow foreign births to be recorded as US births.
    And now you come up with a new made-up argument that *federal law* says if only the mother’s place of residence is in the US, birth certificates all over the country must record a foreign birth as US birth?
    Riddle me that contradiction.

  224. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 28, 2013 at 4:02 am #

    Hermitian: Federal law mandates that the place of birth is the mother’s place of residence at the time of birth.

    I’m trying to figure out how Obama’s mother would live inside the hospital…

    Various points from the long-form

    Place of BIrth: Name of Hospital or Institution – Kapiolani Maternaty and Gynocological Hospital.

    So, was Obama’s mother place of Residence inside the hospital? Or did the people get it wrong when they gave this address? 6085 Kalanianaole Highway as the mother’s Residence when Obama was born?

    You’re making no sense, Hermy…

  225. avatar
    Northland10 June 28, 2013 at 7:54 am #

    Hermitian: Federal law mandates that the place of birth is the mother’s place of residence at the time of birth.

    I wonder how many mothers would then have their place of residence, 20,000 feet up, 7 miles off the coast of Maine. It gives a whole new meaning to, “you can’t go home again.”

  226. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG June 28, 2013 at 10:43 am #

    Hermitian: Federal law mandates that the place of birth is the mother’s place of residence at the time of birth.

    Then explain births on planes, trains, and boats.
    Also, WHICH federal law mandates it? Or can’t you be bothered to cite your source? Make a claim? You’d better cite a source. That is how the internet works. Birthers don’t get to say something then not present proof of their arguement, not after five years of “SHOW US PROOF!!!”
    So put up or shut up, you stupid tit.

  227. avatar
    Jim June 28, 2013 at 11:20 am #

    Hermitian: “Federal law mandates that the place of birth is the mother’s place of residence at the time of birth.”

    WRONG!!! My brother was born in Urbana, IL in April 1961, my family lived in Champaign, IL. Guess what’s on his BC…Urbana. So, federal law at that time required no such thing.

  228. avatar
    CarlOrcas June 28, 2013 at 11:54 am #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Then explain births on planes, trains, and boats.

    How about the back seat of police cars?

    An old friend has delivered two babies (at last count) while on duty.

    Under Herm’s rule I wonder if they use the police car’s equipment number or the location (400 block of Main Street?) or both as the “mother’s place of residence at the time of birth.”?

    Herm…..help us with this one.

  229. avatar
    nbc June 28, 2013 at 3:14 pm #

    Jim: Hermitian: “Federal law mandates that the place of birth is the mother’s place of residence at the time of birth.”

    I find it fascinating how gullible Hermitian has shown himself to be. Unfounded assertions that are easily researched, without providing any supporting references.

    Fascinating…

  230. avatar
    scott e June 28, 2013 at 4:05 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    No, confirmation bias is a problem for everyone, myself included. Some people, however, don’t recognize the problem and don’t correct for it.

    thank you.. that’s fair.

  231. avatar
    scott e June 28, 2013 at 4:07 pm #

    nbc: You have internet access, don’t you? How hard could it be to do the research?

    just say you don’t know… that’s acceptable.

  232. avatar
    scott e June 28, 2013 at 4:10 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Well organized? Antibirthers aren’t organized, and as for time and energy, my neighbor puts a lot more time and energy into bass fishing.

    well… you… seem organized, I don’t know your neighbor…

  233. avatar
    richCares June 28, 2013 at 6:21 pm #

    sheriff Joe on the radio today saying Zullo is great and BC is forgery, man that man is really stupid. Maybe nbc should send him his results, it may help to keep Joe from embarrassing himself.

  234. avatar
    Keith June 28, 2013 at 8:19 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: Then explain births on planes, trains, and boats.

    And Taxi’s! Does Hermission’s BC show he/she was born in a taxi?

    Jim: WRONG!!! My brother was born in Urbana, IL in April 1961, my family lived in Champaign, IL. Guess what’s on his BC…Urbana.

    My birth certificate shows I was born in Pontiac MI even though my family lived in Birmingham, MI.

  235. avatar
    Rickey June 28, 2013 at 11:47 pm #

    scott e: well… you… seem organized, I don’t know your neighbor…

    Organized? I have been participating on this blog for more than four years and I don’t know the real full names of most of the regulars here (I assume that the ones who post full names are giving their real names, but I don’t know that for certain).

    If we were really organized we would know each other’s names, addresses, phone numbers, e-mail addresses, etc.

    We probably just seem organized to you because most of us believe in debunking lies and spreading the truth, and we are fervent advocates of rational thought.

  236. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 29, 2013 at 12:43 am #

    I’m still wanting Hermy to explain how Stanley Ann Dunham managed to live inside the hospital.

    Not to mention that his entire theory is self-contradicting. If the Place of Birth is the mother’s usual residence according to Federal Law, then Barack Obama was born inside the United States according to Federal Law. Doesn’t this mean that he’s eligible for the Presidency of the United States?

  237. avatar
    scott e June 29, 2013 at 12:26 pm #

    Rickey: Organized? I have been participating on this blog for more than four years and I don’t know the real full names of most of the regulars here (I assume that the ones who post full names are giving their real names, but I don’t know that for certain).

    If we were really organized we would know each other’s names, addresses, phone numbers, e-mail addresses, etc.

    We probably just seem organized to you because most of us believe in debunking lies and spreading the truth, and we are fervent advocates of rational thought.

    funny how everyone knows we the birthers names though, just about every palyer on my side hmmm. most of the antis have multiple web aliases. another red flag.

    john woodman is open though, but he’s gone. he is sure by the way that Obama is corrupt, but assures me he stands by his work. I respect that.

  238. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 29, 2013 at 12:32 pm #

    Loren, Foggy and I are public with our names. Before I retired, I was more secretive so that my blogging didn’t interfere with business.

    Perhaps birthers deep down know that they have nothing personally to fear from the Obots, as we ridicule, but never threaten. Birthers on the other hand use all sorts of violent and apocalyptic language and that reasonably gives pause to folks that oppose them.

    scott e: funny how everyone knows we the birthers names though, just about every palyer on my side hmmm. most of the antis have multiple web aliases. another red flag.

  239. avatar
    dunstvangeet June 29, 2013 at 1:07 pm #

    scott e: funny how everyone knows we the birthers names though, just about every palyer on my side hmmm. most of the antis have multiple web aliases. another red flag.

    Actuallly, most of us don’tt have “multiple web aliases”, there are some people who do, mainly to actually try to ridicule birthers from the inside.

    And yet, we’ve experienced multiple sock-puppets on this forum from the birthers (some of which have actually had long-drawn out conversations with eachother, despite being written by the same person). One of the more elicit examples is Dragging Canoe (or whoever it was). He’d post under about 5 different web handles to make it appear that he had more support than what he did.

    And the reason that we know your names to the extent that we do is that you are the ones that are filing the lawsuits, you’re the one that are holding up the House by yelling out that Obama’s a Secret Muslim. Not to mention that you guys are the ones that rely upon anonymous experts (remember Polarik).

    As far as why we don’t tend to make our names public is because you guys have also harassed us in the real world. When Foggy’s name was made public, he actually recieved death threats. GeorgetownJD has actually recieved alls at her place of work trying to get her fired. It happens time and time again.

  240. avatar
    Majority Will June 29, 2013 at 1:57 pm #

    Yet another idiotic (but not surprising) comment:

    “funny how everyone knows we the birthers names though, just about every palyer (sic) on my side hmmm. most of the antis have multiple web aliases. another red flag.”

    Says “bernadine ayers”. . .

    Reference:

    bernadine ayers December 21, 2011 at 3:59 pm #

    i liked dr. corsi’s book. i think you’re wrong about the birth certificate issue going away though. lot’s of people are still taliking about it. i like this website too though. i hope sheriff joe figures it all out.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/12/corsi-scales-down-book-publishing-enterprise/#comment-140824

    And many, many more.

  241. avatar
    Majority Will June 29, 2013 at 2:09 pm #

    “funny how everyone knows we the birthers names though, just about every palyer (sic) on my side hmmm. most of the antis have multiple web aliases. another red flag.”

    Or “washamericom” . . .

    Reference:

    washamericom 12-17-11, 09:12 AM (four days from the quote posted above)

    the other newsworthy note is that according to trump, barbara walters scrubbed trump’s comments on obama birth certificat from her interview, i wonder how come. i think we’re getting closer all of the time.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/conspiracy-theories/114962-0bamas-private-attorney-files-motion-dismiss.html

    Paranoid, bigoted, hypocritical delusions are essential to birtherism.

  242. avatar
    Daniel June 29, 2013 at 3:25 pm #

    scott e: well… you… seem organized, I don’t know your neighbor…

    Rudy “Lonestar”, on of my favourite Birthers, is also a religious heliocentrist, in other words, he believes that the earth is the centre of the universe, and that the sun, stars, planets, and everything, orbits the earth. His reason? “God said so” ie the Bible.

    He’s completely convinced than all the people who say otherwise, all the scientists, teachers, map makers, NASA, government (of course), are part of a huge, well organized, conspiracy to keep the truth from the people, so as to allow Satan to reign on earth. He has scores of fellow Birthers and other RWNJs who agree with him completely.

    Notice the corollary here? The people who disagree with Rudy aren’t part of any “well organized” conspiracy, they’re just people who share a firm grasp on reality, and aren’t slaves to a ridiculous delusion that anyone with two brain cells can see is whacked.

    Unfortunately Rudy cannot conceive of intelligent and reasoning people disagreeing with him, because he needs to believe that his delusions are actually truth that is self evident. Thus anyone with obvious intelligence and expertise that disagrees with him aren’t just wrong, they are lying. And what happens when every expert, in any related discipline, every teacher, every official, every university an library, every news channel and documentary, and even the very government, is “lying”?

    Well that’s obviously a conspiracy that’s “well organized”, of course…..

    I hope you’re intelligent enough to see how crazy Rudy’s situation, and your claim that we seem “well organized”, are not so very different.

  243. avatar
    Majority Will June 29, 2013 at 4:30 pm #

    Daniel: I hope you’re intelligent enough to see how crazy Rudy’s situation, and your claim that we seem “well organized”, are not so very different.

    That’s funny.

    You know as well as I do that is not even remotely possible.

  244. avatar
    US Citizen June 29, 2013 at 5:22 pm #

    Daniel:

    He’s completely convinced than all the people who say otherwise, all the scientists, teachers, map makers, NASA, government (of course), are part of a huge, well organized, conspiracy to keep the truth from the people, so as to allow Satan to reign on earth. He has scores of fellow Birthers and other RWNJs who agree with him completely.

    Rudi’s a trip.
    I wonder where we get sunrises and sunsets?

    Anyway Daniel, you gave yourself away as being part of this huge conspiracy.
    How can I tell?
    Easy.. you capitalized Satan and Birthers, but not Earth.

  245. avatar
    Majority Will June 29, 2013 at 6:43 pm #

    US Citizen: Anyway Daniel, you gave yourself away as being part of this huge conspiracy.
    How can I tell?
    Easy.. you capitalized Satan and Birthers, but not Earth.

    . . . of Course.

  246. avatar
    scott e June 30, 2013 at 12:32 pm #

    Majority Will:
    “funny how everyone knows we the birthers names though, just about every palyer (sic) on my side hmmm. most of the antis have multiple web aliases. another red flag.”

    Or “washamericom” . . .

    Reference:

    washamericom 12-17-11, 09:12 AM (four days from the quote posted above)

    the other newsworthy note is that according to trump, barbara walters scrubbed trump’s comments on obama birth certificat from her interview, i wonder how come. i think we’re getting closer all of the time.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/conspiracy-theories/114962-0bamas-private-attorney-files-motion-dismiss.html

    Paranoid, bigoted, hypocritical delusions are essential to birtherism.

    thank you wills.

  247. avatar
    scott e June 30, 2013 at 12:39 pm #

    Majority Will:
    Yet another idiotic (but not surprising) comment:

    “funny how everyone knows we the birthers names though, just about every palyer (sic) on my side hmmm. most of the antis have multiple web aliases. another red flag.”

    Says “bernadine ayers”. . .

    Reference:

    bernadine ayers December 21, 2011 at 3:59 pm #

    i liked dr. corsi’s book. i think you’re wrong about the birth certificate issue going away though. lot’s of people are still taliking about it. i like this website too though. i hope sheriff joe figures it all out.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2011/12/corsi-scales-down-book-publishing-enterprise/#comment-140824

    And many, many more.

    no, that’s the only one. just having a little fun at your expense. that was for one day only, I even said that I would be identified by the end of the day, and I was, by our own sfjeff (check the transcripts governor).

    not too hard.

    no, I was thinking more along the lines of eppy, wong, historian dude etc, RC (who wouldn’t even tell me his first name, and I was on his show.

    i’m not saying it’s a bad thing, just proportionally unequal, that’s all. my life is an open book. no secrets here… lol

    you think WashAmeriCom is cryptic ? it’s my website.

    at least give me credit for being right about the issue not just going away though. I mean, this isn’t an imaginary site, right ?

  248. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG June 30, 2013 at 12:43 pm #

    scott e: well… you… seem organized, I don’t know your neighbor…

    You’re confusing “organized” with “grounded firmly in reality”. Easy mistake to make for someone of your diminished capacity.

  249. avatar
    scott e June 30, 2013 at 12:47 pm #

    dunstvangeet: Actuallly, most of us don’tt have “multiple web aliases”, there are some people who do, mainly to actually try to ridicule birthers from the inside.

    And yet, we’ve experienced multiple sock-puppets on this forum from the birthers (some of which have actually had long-drawn out conversations with eachother, despite being written by the same person).One of the more elicit examples is Dragging Canoe (or whoever it was).He’d post under about 5 different web handles to make it appear that he had more support than what he did.

    And the reason that we know your names to the extent that we do is that you are the ones that are filing the lawsuits, you’re the one that are holding up the House by yelling out that Obama’s a Secret Muslim.Not to mention that you guys are the ones that rely upon anonymous experts (remember Polarik).

    As far as why we don’t tend to make our names public is because you guys have also harassed us in the real world.When Foggy’s name was made public, he actually recieved death threats.GeorgetownJD has actually recieved alls at her place of work trying to get her fired. It happens time and time again.

    I see your point, I do love all of the cloak and dagger stuff, it adds to the intrigue. we all get death threats, it goes with the territory.

  250. avatar
    scott e June 30, 2013 at 12:50 pm #

    richCares:
    sheriff Joe on the radio today saying Zullo is great and BC is forgery, man that man is really stupid. Maybe nbc should send him his results, it may help to keep Joe from embarrassing himself.

    yes, but are NBC’s results recent ??

  251. avatar
    scott e June 30, 2013 at 12:54 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Loren, Foggy and I are public with our names. Before I retired, I was more secretive so that my blogging didn’t interfere with business.

    Perhaps birthers deep down know that they have nothing personally to fear from the Obots, as we ridicule, but never threaten. Birthers on the other hand use all sorts of violent and apocalyptic language and that reasonably gives pause to folks that oppose them.

    it’s hard to generalize, the birthers I identify with would never do that. but yes, there are crazies on both sides. in dr. taitz’s case, she has told me she has been frightened by antibirthers. that whole dan lacey thing comes to mind, and other instances of threats and violence, she is a lightning rod. but I love that she keeps going.

  252. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 30, 2013 at 1:01 pm #

    You do have a point about Taitz getting threats too. I never believed that anybody actually tampered with her car though.

    scott e: it’s hard to generalize, the birthers I (sic) identify with would never do that. but yes, there are crazies on both sides. in dr. taitz’s case, she has told me she has been frightened by antibirthers. that whole dan lacey thing comes to mind, and other instances of threats and violence, she is a lightning rod. but I love that she keeps going.

  253. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG June 30, 2013 at 1:17 pm #

    Taitz doesn’t get genuine threats, so much as people screwing with her for the purpose of getting a knee-jerk reaction, knowing full well that she’ll go into full panic mode.

    Also, keep in mind this woman takes things like “If I were a judge, I would have thrown the book at you long ago!” or “Something should lock you up and throw away the key.” as a personal threat.

    scott e: it’s hard to generalize, the birthers I identify with would never do that.

    The birthers at Lucas Smith’s blog do that.
    The birthers at ORYR do that.
    The birthers at Orly’s blog do that.
    The birthers at Free Republic do that.
    The birthers at Dr Kate’s do that.
    The birthers at Citizen Welles do that.
    The birthers on Youtube do that.

    So tell me, what utopia are you from, where birthers are civil human beings, because I call utter BS.

  254. avatar
    richCares June 30, 2013 at 1:37 pm #

    “…but I love that she keeps going.”
    .

    I don’t agree with death threats of any kind by anybody, but Orly is a foul mouthed nasty lady, her insults of Obama are beyond the pale, she spouts the 1890 DOB constantly. That bit came from a Daniel’s report, it had an entry showing 1890 DOB, 6 entries prior to it, there was a 1990 DOB entry. Both these entries are for the same address, Both are shown as issued in 1977, yes in 1977 a SSN was issued for a 1990 DOB. Both entries are obvious errors, the address in the entry did not exist in 1890. Orly touts the 1890 DOB but avoids the 1990 DOB (as it destroys her point)

  255. avatar
    richCares June 30, 2013 at 1:50 pm #

    “yes, but are NBC’s results recent ??”
    ..
    from the article above
    NBC has now published a new article titled: The Proof – Forgery done by Xerox Workcentre 7655.
    http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2013/06/24/the-proof-forgery-done-by-xerox-workcentre-7655/#comment-64477

  256. avatar
    Rickey June 30, 2013 at 2:36 pm #

    scott e: funny how everyone knows we the birthers names though, just about every palyer on my side hmmm. most of the antis have multiple web aliases. another red flag.

    Many birthers are so stupid and post so prolifically that they leave more than enough evidence to figure out their identities. For example, some of the ridiculous theories propounded by birther “John” have been repeated by him on his Facebook page, word for word.

    Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that “most of the antis have multiple web aliases? Over at the Fogbow I see many of the same people I see here, and they use the same handles there.

  257. avatar
    Dave B. June 30, 2013 at 2:44 pm #

    john: The CCP doesn’t deal in SPECULATION.

    Well, no, not exclusively.

    john: Mike Zullo welcomes any Obot or any person for that matter to come to the CCP office and with scanner equipment produce all of the anolmolies found in Obama’s birth certificate.

    The CCP has an office? Where?

  258. avatar
    Dave B. June 30, 2013 at 2:52 pm #

    The State Department doesn’t issue Certificates of US Citizenship. Duh.

    Hermitian: In fact if the parents didn’t obtain the Certificate of US Citizenship from the State Department then they have screwed up.

  259. avatar
    Rickey June 30, 2013 at 3:04 pm #

    scott e: it’s hard to generalize, the birthers I identify with would never do that. but yes, there are crazies on both sides. in dr. taitz’s case, she has told me she has been frightened by antibirthers. that whole dan lacey thing comes to mind, and other instances of threats and violence, she is a lightning rod. but I love that she keeps going.

    Orly felt threatened by Dan Lacey? Seriously?

    You obviously need to be educated, so I suggest that you check out Patrick McKinnion’s blog, http://badfiction.typepad.com/. A couple of times each week Patrick compiles the most vile, racist, and anti-Semitic remarks which he finds posted on birther websites. He also cites the many calls for armed insurrection and a military coup, not to mention the calls for the execution of Obama and most of the high-ranking members of the U.S. government. Then show me something which is even remotely similar on anti-birther websites – if you can.

  260. avatar
    Dave B. June 30, 2013 at 3:11 pm #

    That’s just downright absurd.

    Hermitian: Federal law mandates that the place of birth is the mother’s place of residence at the time of birth.

  261. avatar
    scott e June 30, 2013 at 3:32 pm #

    Rickey: Orly felt threatened by Dan Lacey? Seriously?

    You obviously need to be educated, so I suggest that you check out Patrick McKinnion’s blog, http://badfiction.typepad.com/. A couple of times each week Patrick compiles the most vile, racist, and anti-Semitic remarks which he finds posted on birther websites. He also cites the many calls for armed insurrection and a military coup, not to mention the calls for the execution of Obama and most of the high-ranking members of the U.S. government. Then show me something which is even remotely similar on anti-birther websites – if you can.

    well, soros… the pics of the paintings were sent to her kids.

    but there have been other things too. have you seen those paintings ? the forum at fogbow got all lit up over it.

    I can’t speak for your Patrick, I simply don’t know him. i’m sure there are examples of left wing fanatics, against George bush perhaps. but I wasn’t talking about them either.

    I think there were some examples right here, I can’t recall exactly what it was. more than ridicule. I think sheriff joe was threatened at some point. I haven’t asked mike zullo about that, but you know how it goes. it’s all part of the show. it’s a big world and a big internet. I think chris matthews has said some pretty mean things. I have been called, crazy racist, stupid, unpatriotic, un-American,….. just because I think there is something in 0bama’s past that he might be hiding.

    plus I grew up in Chicago, I know how things work. there was a time when the libs would “Question authority” ….. i’m sure I saw it on a bumper sticker. a volkswagon bus…

    what antibirther websites are there, besides here and fogbow ?? I bet there is something stellar in the wings, we don’t know about the obamas.

    now I remember… someone here wished she would get cancer and die, or something to that effect. I called it at the time, doc agreed it was over the top, and said so. other dumb stuff too.

    anyway, don’t take it personally. I just think it’s interesting, the media, the arena around it, it’s become cult you know, and all of you are just a responsible as I am for that.

  262. avatar
    scott e June 30, 2013 at 3:43 pm #

    Rickey: Many birthers are so stupid and post so prolifically that they leave more than enough evidence to figure out their identities. For example, some of the ridiculous theories propounded by birther “John” have been repeated by him on his Facebook page, word for word.

    Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that “most of the antis have multiple web aliases? Over at the Fogbow I see many of the same people I see here, and they use the same handles there.

    I guess frank is the best example. but how many has bryan had ?, RC ?. one of the reasons people use aliases is so we won’t know, by definition.

    but you’re right we do it too, for various reasons. and there are commonalities among websites. I thought the antibirthers ruined woodman’s site. anyway he’s gone. I still email with him though.

  263. avatar
    scott e June 30, 2013 at 3:49 pm #

    richCares:
    “yes, but are NBC’s results recent ??”
    ..
    from the article above
    NBC has now published a new article titled: The Proof – Forgery done by Xerox Workcentre 7655.
    http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2013/06/24/the-proof-forgery-done-by-xerox-workcentre-7655/#comment-64477

    I couldn’t tell when he made the discovery, have we seen this before ??

  264. avatar
    scott e June 30, 2013 at 3:55 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG:
    Taitz doesn’t get genuine threats, so much as people screwing with her for the purpose of getting a knee-jerk reaction, knowing full well that she’ll go into full panic mode.

    Also, keep in mind this woman takes things like “If I were a judge, I would have thrown the book at you long ago!” or “Something should lock you up and throw away the key.” as a personal threat.

    The birthers at Lucas Smith’s blog do that.
    The birthers at ORYR do that.
    The birthers at Orly’s blog do that.
    The birthers at Free Republic do that.
    The birthers at Dr Kate’s do that.
    The birthers at Citizen Welles do that.
    The birthers on Youtube do that.

    ************
    are we still talking about violent and apocalyptic language and that reasonably gives pause to folks that oppose them??

  265. avatar
    scott e June 30, 2013 at 3:58 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: You’re confusing “organized” with “grounded firmly in reality”. Easy mistake to make for someone of your diminished capacity.

    that’s all right.

  266. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 30, 2013 at 4:44 pm #

    It’s new.

    scott e: I couldn’t tell when he made the discovery, have we seen this before ??

  267. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy June 30, 2013 at 4:58 pm #

    There’s the Birther Think Tank, Realty Check Radio, Bad Fiction, Natural Born Citizen and Barackryphal that are what I would describe as still active. In addition, the Jack Ryan collection is still being maintained and the Birther scorecard at What’s Your Evidence? There are also some Facebook pages.If I left someone out, let me know, and I apologize.

    I need to survey the birther sites again to see what’s active. PPSimmons’ channel on YouTube is active and of course ORYR, and ORLY.

    The issue continues to be discussed on politically-oriented web sites, Amazon and YouTube.

    scott e: what antibirther websites are there, besides here and fogbow ??

  268. avatar
    nbc June 30, 2013 at 5:00 pm #

    scott e: I couldn’t tell when he made the discovery, have we seen this before ??

    Nope.
    I now have added a scan from Xerox WorkCentre 7535, kindly provided to me by a friendly reader.

    I believe that this is the final nail in the coffin of the ‘WH PDF is a forgery’ claims.

  269. avatar
    nbc June 30, 2013 at 5:04 pm #

    scott e: yes, but are NBC’s results recent ??

    Yep, I discussed them on RC Radio and they are about a week or so old. Time flies when you are having fun…

  270. avatar
    nbc June 30, 2013 at 5:08 pm #

    7535 WorkCenter

    The next step towards the demise of the ‘fraudulent WH PDF’ arguments based on artifacts.

    Some birthers are already retreating to non-PDF based arguments such as race, etc…

    I wonder when the CCP will do its homework…

    So if the PDF can be shown to have been created by a simple workflow, much of the foundation for ‘fraud’ has disappeared. Now it becomes total speculation on minor issues such as the numbering, the race, the age of the father and other irrelevant issues.

    Mark Gillar dropped by and disappeared
    We have another researcher “Electro Magnetic Punk” who has shown interest and appears to have done quite bit of independent analysis him/herself.

    I am awaiting his/her feedback which so far has been quite plentiful… Now that I have produced the PDF, I hope we can resolve these matters quickly.

    Too bad, in some way I had hoped for some hearings… The sight of the Dems rolling in a Whitehouse Xerox WorkCentre 7655 and identify it as the forger, would have been hilarious

  271. avatar
    nbc June 30, 2013 at 5:17 pm #

    John Woodman (and others) appear to have been vindicated. Mixed Raster Compression and JBIG2 after all. And all in a single workflow.
    I can even explain why the document was printed as PDF in preview. The staffer had scanned the document upside down, noticed it, loaded it into preview, rotated it and printed it as PDF.

    Now that’s detail for you and I can walk you through the logic behind this if you care.

  272. avatar
    Monkey Boy June 30, 2013 at 11:25 pm #

    scott e: I have been called, crazy racist, stupid, unpatriotic, un-American,….

    Could it be because you are…or, at least, seem that way to good Americans.

  273. avatar
    Rickey July 1, 2013 at 12:54 am #

    scott e: well, soros… the pics of the paintings were sent to her kids.

    but there have been other things too. have you seen those paintings ? the forum at fogbow got all lit up over it.

    Yes, I have seen them. But we only have Orly’s word for it that they were sent to her kids, and even if it happened we have no evidence that Lacey was reponsible for sending them to her kids. Anyway, how does that in any way represent a threat?

    BTW, Lacey also has produced a series of paintings depicting a naked Barack Obama riding a unicorn. What should we make of that?

    I can’t speak for your Patrick, I simply don’t know him.

    Obviously you don’t. That’s why I provided you with a link to his blog, so you can read up on many of the vile comments which birthers post on a daily basis. Of course, no one is suggesting that all birthers are racists or that all birthers are clamoring for the violent overthrow of our government, but there are plenty of them out there.

    I think there were some examples right here, I can’t recall exactly what it was. more than ridicule. I think sheriff joe was threatened at some point.

    Arpaio wasn’t threatened here. I am confident of that because Doc C. would not allow it. Your friend Orly, on the other hand, allows all sorts of racist and threatening comments to get through her “moderation.” I put “moderation” in quotes because Orly doesn’t really moderate, she censors. I tried to warn Orly that she was being punked by someone with the nonsense about Obama getting financial aid from New York State. I know for a fact that it is nonsense because I have been a New York State resident for most of my life and New York does not and never has given financial aid to out-of-state students, much less foreign students. But Orly isn’t interested in the truth when it conflicts which her confirmation bias.

    now I remember… someone here wished she would get cancer and die, or something to that effect. I called it at the time, doc agreed it was over the top, and said so. other dumb stuff too.

    Again, hardly a threat, unless you believe that the person who made such a statement was actually in a position to give Orly cancer.

    I just think it’s interesting, the media, the arena around it, it’s become cult you know, and all of you are just a responsible as I am for that.

    Speak for yourself. I am responsible for my own actions, not those of others.

  274. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 1, 2013 at 1:13 am #

    Orly reiterated this when I talked to her on the phone, but she never said who sent them, or how they were sent. Certainly on this blog you have never seen her kids’ names, nor any contact information. If anyone sent copies of those pictures to her kids, the most likely source would be somebody they knew. It makes no sense for Lacey to have sent them.

    Rickey: Yes, I have seen them. But we only have Orly’s word for it that they were sent to her kids, and even if it happened we have no evidence that Lacey was reponsible for sending them to her kids. Anyway, how does that in any way represent a threat?

  275. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund July 1, 2013 at 9:49 am #

    nbc: We have another researcher “Electro Magnetic Punk” who has shown interest and appears to have done quite bit of independent analysis him/herself.

    I’m not so sure about the amount of independent research EM Punk has actually done. I’ve caught Punk in several outright lies, and Punk has not demonstrated much knowledge other than some vague and incorrect handwaving.

  276. avatar
    scott e July 1, 2013 at 11:51 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Orly reiterated this when I talked to her on the phone, but she never said who sent them, or how they were sent. Certainly on this blog you have never seen her kids’ names, nor any contact information. If anyone sent copies of those pictures to her kids, the most likely source would be somebody they knew. It makes no sense for Lacey to have sent them.

    I think it was meant to be intimidating. not very classy. but again, we birthers are not all the same, same goes for you.

  277. avatar
    scott e July 1, 2013 at 11:53 am #

    Rickey: Yes, I have seen them. But we only have Orly’s word for it that they were sent to her kids, and even if it happened we have no evidence that Lacey was reponsible for sending them to her kids. Anyway, how does that in any way represent a threat?

    BTW, Lacey also has produced a series of paintings depicting a naked Barack Obama riding a unicorn. What should we make of that?

    Obviously you don’t. That’s why I provided you with a link to his blog, so you can read up on many of the vile comments which birthers post on a daily basis. Of course, no one is suggesting that all birthers are racists or that all birthers are clamoring for the violent overthrow of our government, but there are plenty of them out there.

    Arpaio wasn’t threatened here. I am confident of that because Doc C. would not allow it. Your friend Orly, on the other hand, allows all sorts of racist and threatening comments to get through her “moderation.” I put “moderation” in quotes because Orly doesn’t really moderate, she censors. I tried to warn Orly that she was being punked by someone with the nonsense about Obama getting financial aid from New York State. I know for a fact that it is nonsense because I have been a New York State resident for most of my life and New York does not and never has given financial aid to out-of-state students, much less foreign students. But Orly isn’t interested in the truth when it conflicts which her confirmation bias.

    Again, hardly a threat, unless you believe that the person who made such a statement was actually in a position to give Orly cancer.

    Speak for yourself. I am responsible for my own actions, not those of others.

    I was talking to the unicorn…

  278. avatar
    scott e July 1, 2013 at 11:54 am #

    Monkey Boy: Could it be because you are…or, at least, seem that way to good Americans.

    that’s ok monkey boy.

  279. avatar
    scott e July 1, 2013 at 12:03 pm #

    nbc: Yep, I discussed them on RC Radio and they are about a week or so old. Time flies when you are having fun…

    ah now I see… that’s what I wanted to know.

    my point being is that even you and your team, are finding new things as recently as now (last week).

    so how can the whole story be a dead non issue ? those two things don’t square, imho. can you safely say that nothing else new from this point on will ever be discovered. would that be scientific ??

  280. avatar
    scott e July 1, 2013 at 12:19 pm #

    hey doc, could you please change my avatar to something much happier and more dignified ? thanks for the list of anti websites, i’ll check them out.

  281. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 1, 2013 at 1:08 pm #

    The list of anti-birther web sites is on every page under the Good column lower left.

    For information on avatars, consult the site’s User Guide:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/visitor-guide/

    scott e: hey doc, could you please change my avatar to something much happier and more dignified ? thanks for the list of anti websites, i’ll check them out.

  282. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 1, 2013 at 1:11 pm #

    Birthers continue to make stuff up that requires debunking. There’s always room for one more nail in the coffin of birtherism.

    When I was in college Einstein’s Theory of Relativity had been well verified experimentally, and had been for some time. That didn’t stop folks in the Physics department from trying to come up with innovative new ways to verify it again. Students in my class did experiments disproving the existence of the ether.

    scott e: so how can the whole story be a dead non issue ? those two things don’t square, imho. can you safely say that nothing else new from this point on will ever be discovered. would that be scientific ??

  283. avatar
    Reality Check July 1, 2013 at 1:32 pm #

    EM Punk claims to have inside info on what “tests” the CCP performed. That means he is probably either Garrett Papit or Tim Selaty, Jr. Selaty has been very quiet since he participated with Papit in whatever they did. He published his own report that differed in some ways from the official report that was written by Papit. Selaty has since removed the report from his blog.

    W. Kevin Vicklund: I’m not so sure about the amount of independent research EM Punk has actually done.I’ve caught Punk in several outright lies, and Punk has not demonstrated much knowledge other than some vague and incorrect handwaving.

  284. avatar
    Rickey July 1, 2013 at 2:11 pm #

    scott e:

    my point being is that even you and your team, are finding new things as recently as now (last week).

    so how can the whole story be a dead non issue ? those two things don’t square, imho. can you safely say that nothing else new from this point on will ever be discovered. would that be scientific ??

    If we were to accept your line of reasoning, nothing is ever resolved because there is always the possibility that something new will be discovered. But that isn’t how science works.

  285. avatar
    nbc July 1, 2013 at 2:18 pm #

    scott e: so how can the whole story be a dead non issue ? those two things don’t square, imho. can you safely say that nothing else new from this point on will ever be discovered. would that be scientific ??

    It was already dead before I did my research: 1) the DOH of Hawaii had already verified and certified these documents 2) it was quite clear that the artifacts were compression related.

    It was a minor mystery that was now resolved. Let’s see how well the birthers take the news 🙂

  286. avatar
    W. Kevin Vicklund July 1, 2013 at 2:24 pm #

    Reality Check: EM Punk claims to have inside info on what “tests” the CCP performed. That means he is probably either Garrett Papit or Tim Selaty, Jr. Selaty has been very quiet since he participated with Papit in whatever they did. He published his own report that differed in some ways from the official report that was written by Papit. Selaty has since removed the report from his blog.

    Or, like with several of his other claims, he is just lying. I’ve seen more birthers make claims like his than there are CCP members, so I take such a claim with a grain of salt.

  287. avatar
    nbc July 1, 2013 at 2:32 pm #

    Or, like with several of his other claims, he is just lying. I’ve seen more birthers make claims like his than there are CCP members, so I take such a claim with a grain of salt.

    He sounds reasonably well informed but he is quick to jump to conclusions and now has slowed down significantly when another PDF was provided. My bets are on Tim, he used to have some reasonable analyses on his blog.

  288. avatar
    Reality Check July 1, 2013 at 3:17 pm #

    The Appeal to Authority logical fallacy is widely used by Birthers. I think “We have stuff you don’t know about” is a corollary to that fallacy. Mark Gillar and Carl Gallups use that one a lot. Look at the the way they present Reed Hayes. He may have been employed in a case by an attorney who once worked for the huge Perkins Coie Law firm so now Hayes must be endorsed by the President’s attorneys. ]Also, because he may have been allowed to opine in a case on handwriting automatically means he is “court certified” to opine on an electronic file.

    W. Kevin Vicklund: Or, like with several of his other claims, he is just lying.I’ve seen more birthers make claims like his than there are CCP members, so I take such a claim with a grain of salt.

  289. avatar
    nbc July 1, 2013 at 3:26 pm #

    Recently, my announcement of the findings, has been received in various ways but Mark Gillar, EMP and Vogt

    Vogt

    This story is just not true. The layers shown are the same ones that are on the PDF copy and it was created within a MAC. Besides the PDF does not have a chain of custudy. The reporters copy does. His birth certificate is still a forgery with at least 19 points of forgery on just the reorters copy.

    Gillar

    So does this mean that Obots were wrong about OCR software, mixed raster compression and or adaptive compression being responsible for 100% of the anomalies in the document?
    Oh no, wait, Preview caused the anomalies, er uh I mean Dejavu, no wait it was JBig2…
    Why do I have a feeling we’ll be adding this to the long list of failed attempts by Obots to explain the anomalies?

    Things have gone strangely quiet. Although given EMP’s input so far, I expect him to respond after due dilligence

    They believe that Reed Hayes is a court certified examiner and thus other findings have no relevance.

    Funny stuff

  290. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 1, 2013 at 3:50 pm #

    No, because just a few days after the long form was released, it was clear that OCR was not involved. And of course the Xerox WorkCentre DOES mixed raster content compression, which is a form of adaptive compression. Adaptive compression is just a word Adobe uses for its own MRC implementation.

    nbc: So does this mean that Obots were wrong about OCR software, mixed raster compression and or adaptive compression being responsible for 100% of the anomalies in the document?

  291. avatar
    nbc July 1, 2013 at 5:46 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: No, because just a few days after the long form was released, it was clear that OCR was not involved. And of course the Xerox WorkCentre DOES mixed raster content compression, which is a form of adaptive compression. Adaptive compression is just a word Adobe uses for its own MRC implementation.

    Mark Gillar is trying to reduce the value of the findings through a red herring. What most people fail to realize is that mixed raster compression is at the simplest level having multiple layers of information that is compressed differently depending on the content.

    Segmentation into 3 layers was the most straightforward implementation, however MRC by itself is a concept that extends to N layers or as Xerox points out 3+N layers.

    MRC (Mixed Raster Content) is a powerful image representation concept in achieving high compression ratios while maintaining high reconstructed image quality. MRC has also been established as a compression standard. Within MRC, a basic three-layer model (contone foreground, contone background, and binary mask) is the most common representation form.

    US7376272

    It was pretty clear that some form of Mixed Raster compression could explain many of the artifacts from the start. The work by people such as Woodman and gsgs added additional details that helped identify algorithmic processes that resulted in these artifacts.

  292. avatar
    Reality Check July 1, 2013 at 6:28 pm #

    One nifty discovery is that the Xerox WorkCentres mentioned have the “Edge Erase” function that explains the white border on the LFBC. I checked a Xerox model today and the default setting is 0.1″ border all around. I think W. Kevin Vicklund checked the PDF vs. the Savannah Guthrie photo and that is what is observed.

  293. avatar
    nbc July 1, 2013 at 6:51 pm #

    Reality Check: One nifty discovery is that the Xerox WorkCentres mentioned have the “Edge Erase” function that explains the white border on the LFBC. I checked a Xerox model today and the default setting is 0.1″ border all around. I think W. Kevin Vicklund checked the PDF vs. the Savannah Guthrie photo and that is what is observed.

    here will update to main post

  294. avatar
    The Magic M July 2, 2013 at 4:56 am #

    nbc: They believe that Reed Hayes is a court certified examiner and thus other findings have no relevance.

    We haven’t even seen Hayes’ report. I am very suspicious about birthers, the CCP in particular, sitting on “evidence”. In 99.9% of the cases, it means they don’t have what they claim they have.

    Just remember how WND never published the Verna Lee interview, relying only on a handful of selective quotes; or how all the ORYR “shock claims” (like “reporter has proof Obama was Indonesian citizen”) never materialized.

    Then compare that with how eager they were to trumpet anything that seemed to even remotely confirm their theories.
    They know birthers will not scrutinize their “evidence” and won’t listen to Obots refuting it either, so there’s no reason not to publish e.g. Hayes’ analysis unless it doesn’t say what they claim it says.

  295. avatar
    bovril July 2, 2013 at 7:52 am #

    Don’t forget Old Donny Combover and his “shock claim”

    MEREDITH VIEIRA:
    You have people now out there searching– I mean, in Hawaii?

    DONALD TRUMP:
    Absolutely. And they cannot believe what they’re finding. And I’m serious

  296. avatar
    scott e July 2, 2013 at 11:16 am #

    nbc: It was already dead before I did my research: 1) the DOH of Hawaii had already verified and certified these documents 2) it was quite clear that the artifacts were compression related.

    It was a minor mystery that was now resolved. Let’s see how well the birthers take the news

    gee and everyone is touting it so enthusiastically…

  297. avatar
    The Magic M July 2, 2013 at 11:48 am #

    The Donald was the prototype of vaporware birtherism. If all birthers had been like him (and Zullo is today and Orly seems to become with her fairytale “whistleblower”), I’d have left long ago because simply making up stuff about non-existing things (Ulsterman style) is nothing but boring. Birtherism was interesting to me because these people presented actual things and claimed those things supported their views – other Hawaiian BC’s, Vattel’s book and more obscure stuff, but at least it was tangible.

    Birtherism today is ruled by the proper madmen, those like Linda Jordan who make up an entire world out of whole cloth and pretend it is solid evidence.
    That’s the stuff boredom is made of. Actually this site is the only one I still read thoroughly, I’ve abandoned reading every comment at Orly’s or ORYR because they simply are unable to come up with anything new and interesting.

    I just keep watching until the “several months” have passed after which the “VIP’s” should’ve gone the way of previous OMG moments…

  298. avatar
    Majority Will July 2, 2013 at 1:14 pm #

    The Magic M:
    The Donald was the prototype of vaporware birtherism. If all birthers had been like him (and Zullo is today and Orly seems to become with her fairytale “whistleblower”),I’d have left long ago because simply making up stuff about non-existing things (Ulsterman style) is nothing but boring. Birtherism was interesting to me because these people presented actual things and claimed those things supported their views – other Hawaiian BC’s, Vattel’s book and more obscure stuff, but at least it was tangible.

    Birtherism today is ruled by the proper madmen, those like Linda Jordan who make up an entire world out of whole cloth and pretend it is solid evidence.
    That’s the stuff boredom is made of. Actually this site is the only one I still read thoroughly, I’ve abandoned reading every comment at Orly’s or ORYR because they simply are unable to come up with anything new and interesting.

    I just keep watching until the “several months” have passed after which the “VIP’s” should’ve gone the way of previous OMG moments…

    Q: How do you make a million dollars?

    A: Start with a billion and then follow Trump’s advice.

  299. avatar
    nbc July 2, 2013 at 6:30 pm #

    scott e: gee and everyone is touting it so enthusiastically…

    Because it is so embarrassing to the CCP and others who have embraced its findings.

  300. avatar
    Daniel July 2, 2013 at 8:17 pm #

    scott e:

    so how can the whole story be a dead non issue ? those two things don’t square, imho. can you safely say that nothing else new from this point on will ever be discovered. would that be scientific ??

    The flat earthers are still around, trying to foist their delusions off on the public as an issue.

    However, it’s a non-issue, and we’re petty safe in saying that nothing new is going to come of it. The earth is not flat. That’s just the way it is.

    Birtherism is in the same boat. Sorry you don’t like that, but the universe doesn’t care what you like.

  301. avatar
    The Magic M July 3, 2013 at 4:30 am #

    scott e: can you safely say that nothing else new from this point on will ever be discovered. would that be scientific ?

    See Daniel’s flat Earth comment. We can safely say that yes, “something new” will be discovered, for example like it was discovered that Earth isn’t a (perfect) sphere but a spheroid.

    I mean, just look how many things about birth certificates, the history of “natural born citizen” etc. were discovered by anti-birthers over the course of the last 5 years.

    But just like with Earth, we can also safely say that nothing will be discovered that changes the core of the issue (that Earth is not flat, that the BC is not a forgery).

  302. avatar
    scott e July 3, 2013 at 6:50 pm #

    The Magic M: See Daniel’s flat Earth comment. We can safely say that yes, “something new” will be discovered, for example like it was discovered that Earth isn’t a (perfect) sphere but a spheroid.

    I mean, just look how many things about birth certificates, the history of “natural born citizen” etc. were discovered by anti-birthers over the course of the last 5 years.

    But just like with Earth, we can also safely say that nothing will be discovered that changes the core of the issue (that Earth is not flat, that the BC is not a forgery).

    ok, thanks…. i’ll be sure to check that out.

  303. avatar
    scott e July 3, 2013 at 6:57 pm #

    Daniel: The flat earthers are still around, trying to foist their delusions off on the public as an issue.

    However, it’s a non-issue, and we’re petty safe in saying that nothing new is going to come of it. The earth is not flat. That’s just the way it is.

    Birtherism is in the same boat. Sorry you don’t like that, but the universe doesn’t care what you like.

    surprisingly (maybe), I am pleased and proud to be in that boat. that’s why we’re here right ??, free exchange, civil discourse ??, just like in independence hall ??.

    I like your attitude, it’s refreshing and bold, goooood for you, don’t take any shit from anybody, as mr. billy joel would say.

    the universe doesn’t really care what Anybody thinks… in the grand scheme of things… this perhaps we just don’t know. happy fourth of july everyone, let’s keep this going…. it’s all temporary. vote.

  304. avatar
    nbc July 4, 2013 at 6:05 pm #

    So Scott E. What do you think of the identification of the ‘forger’ as a Xerox WorkCentre machine… Pretty devastating to the foundation of claims of fraud? No?
    You have been somewhat quiet on it…
    As have the various ‘experts’ who initially commented.

  305. avatar
    scott e July 5, 2013 at 11:50 am #

    nbc:
    So Scott E. What do you think of the identification of the ‘forger’ as a Xerox WorkCentre machine… Pretty devastating to the foundation of claims of fraud? No?
    You have been somewhat quiet on it…
    As have the various ‘experts’ who initially commented.

    well, my pov is that since it took two years to see the “long form” and you just recently made this bold new discovery, I say, everything you all have said for five years about this being all settled, dead or a non issue, is hereby nullified.

    you will find away to expain away my logic.

    I hope to see it all before congress soon (house judiciary). I want to se a bunch of draft registrations from that time, and I want to know why bill o’reilly presented as fact that Obama senior lived in Connecticut for several years.

  306. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 5, 2013 at 2:22 pm #

    Logic? I don’t see any logic.

    scott e: you will find away to expain (sic) away my logic.

  307. avatar
    JD Reed July 5, 2013 at 2:46 pm #

    Scott E: “I hope to see it all before congress soon (house judiciary). I want to se a bunch of draft registrations from that time, and I want to know why bill o’reilly presented as fact that Obama senior lived in Connecticut for several years.”
    You’ll still be hoping to “see it asll before Congress” when they open the Obama library to the public; I hope that’s soon enough for you.
    Good luck with the draft registrations. And if you wouldn’t mind, since you seem to want to contribute to the general knowledge of this site, can you tell us when O’Reilly said Obama Sr. lived in Connecticut for several years. How many is several? What are the specific years?

  308. avatar
    nbc July 5, 2013 at 3:59 pm #

    scott e: you will find away to expain away my logic.

    I see… You are working from a flawed presumption that there is logic to your response.

    I love it how you live in a bit of a denial. No worries… I understand… The finding of the real ‘forger’ has been a minor victory, even though the evidence of MRC compression had been well established as a much better explanation for the artifacts than the appeal to a forger.

    I cannot wait to see how the birthers react to the news… Either way, they are in a bit of a pickle right now. That’s worth the minor effort that it took to do proper investigation of the document.

  309. avatar
    Rickey July 6, 2013 at 2:10 am #

    scott e: well, my pov is that since it took two years to see the “long form” and you just recently made this bold new discovery, I say, everything you all have said for five years about this being all settled, dead or a non issue, is hereby nullified.

    you will find away to expain away my logic.

    You obviously haven’t been paying attention.

    It has always been the opinion of the reality-base community that the “anomalies” in the pdf of the LFBC are not anomalies at all. We were certain that the alleged anomalies were not evidence of intentional manipulation, Rather, they were evidence of perfectly natural compression and optimization. What we did not know is what specific office equipment was used to make the pdf, and now that question seems to have been resolved.

    Nothing has changed. What NBC discovered has merely confirmed what we believed all along.

  310. avatar
    The Magic M July 6, 2013 at 3:40 am #

    scott e: my pov is that since it took two years to see the “long form” and you just recently made this bold new discovery, I say, everything you all have said for five years about this being all settled, dead or a non issue, is hereby nullified

    To use an analogy, we may just recently have found out what caused the slightly excentric rotational axis of the moon, but we have always been sure (and correct about it) it’s not made of cheese as you and your ilk have been claiming.

    Likewise, the fact that the theory about the age of the universe has been corrected several times in the past (from 15 billion to 13 billion to 13.7 billion etc.), but science has always been sure it’s not 6,000 years old as the Bible “originalists” claim.

    scott e: and I want to know why bill o’reilly presented as fact that Obama senior lived in Connecticut for several years

    I’m sorry I have to draw this analogy, but your reasoning is exactly like that of the Holocaust deniers who claim that because the number of Holocaust victims has been corrected (downwards) several times in the past (a Swiss newspaper in 1946 even reported 15 million), it means nobody is really sure if anyone died in Auschwitz at all.

    Anectodal stories or theories that turned out to be wrong do not mean the story as a whole is flawed.

  311. avatar
    scott e July 6, 2013 at 11:30 am #

    JD Reed:
    Scott E: “I hope to see it all before congress soon (house judiciary). I want to se a bunch of draft registrations from that time, and I want to know why bill o’reilly presented as fact that Obama senior lived in Connecticut for several years.”
    You’ll still be hoping to “see it asll before Congress” when they open the Obama library to the public; I hope that’s soon enough for you.
    Good luck with the draft registrations. And if you wouldn’t mind, since you seem to want to contribute to the general knowledge of this site, can you tell us when O’Reilly said Obama Sr. lived in Connecticut for several years. Howmany is several? What are the specific years?

    I already heard that one…and yes… I think I have it somewhere, the o’reilly video…

    wait… here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG6RY-UzM2E

    i’d like to hear more from jean-claude tremblay, ivan zatkovitch and of course , mr. john woodman…

  312. avatar
    scott e July 6, 2013 at 11:31 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Logic? I don’t see any logic.

    have you any draft registrations with just “80” on them ? I know you did a big thing on it.

  313. avatar
    scott e July 6, 2013 at 11:33 am #

    Rickey: You obviously haven’t been paying attention.

    It has always been the opinion of the reality-base community that the “anomalies” in the pdf of the LFBC are not anomalies at all. We were certain that the alleged anomalies were not evidence of intentional manipulation, Rather, they were evidence of perfectly natural compression and optimization. What we did not know is what specific office equipment was used to make the pdf, and now that question seems to have been resolved.

    Nothing has changed. What NBC discovered has merely confirmed what we believed all along.

    ok, thanks rickey. i’d like to know the name of the staffer who did that.

  314. avatar
    scott e July 6, 2013 at 11:37 am #

    The Magic M: To use an analogy, we may just recently have found out what caused the slightly excentric rotational axis of the moon, but we have always been sure (and correct about it) it’s not made of cheese as you and your ilk have been claiming.

    Likewise, the fact that the theory about the age of the universe has been corrected several times in the past (from 15 billion to 13 billion to 13.7 billion etc.), but science has always been sure it’s not 6,000 years old as the Bible “originalists” claim.

    I’m sorry I have to draw this analogy, but your reasoning is exactly like that of the Holocaust deniers who claim that because the number of Holocaust victims has been corrected (downwards) several times in the past (a Swiss newspaper in 1946 even reported 15 million), it means nobody is really sure if anyone died in Auschwitz at all.

    Anectodal stories or theories that turned out to be wrong do not mean the story as a whole is flawed.

    would “dreams” be a good example of anecdotal stories ??

  315. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 6, 2013 at 2:52 pm #

    I looked at postmarks I had laying around the house.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/04/canceling-the-cold-case-posse/

    I demonstrated how whoever writes Zullo’s stuff intentionally tried to mislead the birthers.

    scott e: have you any draft registrations with just “80″ on them ? I know you did a big thing on it.

  316. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 6, 2013 at 3:03 pm #

    scott e: i’d like to know the name of the staffer who did that.

    Why?

  317. avatar
    Dave B. July 6, 2013 at 3:22 pm #

    Have you any? Any at all?

    scott e: have you any draft registrations with just “80″ on them ? I know you did a big thing on it.

  318. avatar
    nbc July 7, 2013 at 1:51 am #

    scott e: ok, thanks rickey. i’d like to know the name of the staffer who did that.

    And a pony as well?…

    Poor Scott..

  319. avatar
    scott e July 7, 2013 at 10:57 am #

    nbc: And a pony as well?…

    Poor Scott..

    poor pony…

  320. avatar
    scott e July 7, 2013 at 10:58 am #

    CarlOrcas: Why?

    it has to do with executive privilege.

  321. avatar
    scott e July 7, 2013 at 11:13 am #

    it should be easy then to find another one just like mr. ohbama’s.

    I think the circle looks drawn not stamped. please please link me to the other ones that have been found.

    also this is interesting. I ran what I believe is 042 68 4425. does anyone here have more numbers I can try ??

  322. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 7, 2013 at 1:31 pm #

    scott e: it has to do with executive privilege.

    How?

  323. avatar
    gorefan July 7, 2013 at 2:13 pm #

    scott e: it should be easy then to find another one just like mr. ohbama’s.

    Here;

    Select Service Cards

    The one at the bottom of the first column (Darrel Oniwa) and the one directly under President Obama’s (second from top, right column) were stamped at the same post office (Makiki Station).

    BTW, IMO the one for Darrel Oniwa used the same postal stamp as both are missing the first “O” in HONOLULU.

    While you are looking at them look at the one directly under the one for Bruce Henderson (the third one down, right column). The one stamped at KAPAA, HI. The 1980 is not centered in the circle.

  324. avatar
    misha marinsky July 7, 2013 at 6:55 pm #

    scott e: hey doc, could you please change my avatar to something much happier and more dignified ?

    Hey, did you make this sign:

    http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b389/epiac1216/a282_s1.jpg

  325. avatar
    Keith July 8, 2013 at 12:11 am #

    scott e: it has to do with executive privilege.

    I realize you are a professional troll and all that, but are you 12 years old too?

  326. avatar
    misha marinsky July 8, 2013 at 12:20 am #

    scott e: i’d like to know the name of the staffer who did that.

    Mortimer K. Snerd