Giving up commenting at Birther Report for Lent

So I was over at BR today and something in the exchange of comments led me to try to explain why I bothered to show up over there, when they don’t listen, I didn’t want their respect, and we just end up exchanging angry words. I was stumped. I couldn’t honestly explain it to myself, much less to them. That was the last straw that ended a process that started last Sunday when our Pastor talked about giving up things for Lent that were bad for us rather than things we enjoyed. Commenting at BR brings out the worst in me.

And it was a profound sense of relief and release I felt when I closed the BR web page, knowing that I would not have to interact with it again for a few weeks. Given the Shrimpton thing and the “March Reveal,” I’ll probably read some articles at BR, but I won’t be commenting until after Easter.

Birthers will say that I ran away, but one can’t help what birthers say.

About Dr. Conspiracy

I'm not a real doctor, but I have a master's degree.
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500 Responses to Giving up commenting at Birther Report for Lent

  1. Mitch says:

    I think you’ll enjoy this Lent.

  2. CarlOrcas says:

    Smart man…..and it will do wonders for your blood pressure.

  3. Dave says:

    You can’t help what birthers say, but you can usually predict it.

  4. The truth says:

    Oh the obots sure do dream, in their world there is no deception by Obama. He WILL be exposed, the lies will overcome him and he will fail to convince anyone otherwise. If he is a citizen, all he needs to do is show evidence and not hide behind attorneys? There is not one shred of evidence he is a citizen, not one! I cant wait for the day he is impeached for fraud, all the people who laughed about “birthers” will hang their head in shame.

  5. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth:
    Oh the obots sure do dream, in their world there is no deception by Obama. He WILL be exposed, the lies will overcome him and he will fail to convince anyone otherwise. If he is a citizen, all he needs to do is show evidence and not hide behind attorneys? There is not one shred of evidence he is a citizen, not one! I cant wait for the day he is impeached for fraud, all the people who laughed about “birthers” will hang their head in shame.

    Translation: Any day now any day now. He has shown evidence you guys reject it. This show us your papers boy nonsense really reveals your true motivations.

  6. I suggest you find something to keep yourself occupied while you’re waiting. It may take a very long time.

    The truth: I cant wait for the day he is impeached for fraud, all the people who laughed about “birthers” will hang their head in shame.

  7. jdkinpa says:

    “He WILL be exposed,”

    So much

    conviction

    So little

    fact

    But any

    day now

    Burma Shave

  8. Arrogantlyignorant says:

    Wow a birther drive by. They’ve really become pathetically desperate, (hmm another good handle idea) haven’t they? 😀

  9. Lupin says:

    The truth:
    Oh the obots sure do dream, in their world there is no deception by Obama. He WILL be exposed, the lies will overcome him and he will fail to convince anyone otherwise. If he is a citizen, all he needs to do is show evidence and not hide behind attorneys? There is not one shred of evidence he is a citizen, not one! I cant wait for the day he is impeached for fraud, all the people who laughed about “birthers” will hang their head in shame.

    To quote Frasier Crane, what color is the sky on your planet?

  10. scott e. says:

    who cares what people say…

  11. Sherrif Joe CCP says:

    That site is a den of censorship. They only want to see their POV, and won’t stand for the truth. I was banned after about 5 posts exposing their lies. You aren’t missing anything Doc.

  12. bovril says:

    The reason to combat the Birfoons remains the same as always

    “‎Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”

  13. The truth says:

    Unfortunately, after Obama is exposed once and for all, all of the Obots will become another unemployed American thus driving up our tax burden even further. They could of course write a best selling book on how they were deceived, I would probably buy one just to see how they were physiologically transformed into someone who does not seek truth. And I would like someone to present me with one document proving Obama is an American citizen, just one, does someone here have such a document? It is not his birth certificate, not his SSN or his selective service record, by the way not one person of his graduating class at the college he claims to have attended for two years recognizes him, not one! This is a very mysterious man indeed. I will give him credit, he is an expert at fraud, of course he does get a lot of help.

  14. American Mzungu says:

    The truth: Unfortunately, after Obama is exposed once and for all, all of the Obots will become another unemployed American thus driving up our tax burden even further…

    Troll.

  15. CarlOrcas says:

    The truth: And I would like someone to present me with one document proving Obama is an American citizen, just one, does someone here have such a document? It is not his birth certificate, not his SSN or his selective service record………………………….

    If none of those work for you just exactly what “document” would?

  16. Curious George says:

    The truth
    March 9, 2014

    I love the name. Try looking up the word “truth” in your Webster’s. And, by the way, the Hawaii Verification of Birth document verifies and certifies all of the information on the Obama birth certificate.

    Enjoyed your visit.

  17. Jim says:

    Doc: “Birthers will say that I ran away, but one can’t help what birthers say.”

    But what really bites their rear end is that nobody but birthers CARE what birthers say. They are legends in their own minds.

  18. scott e. says:

    I think you may have misjudged/characterized some of us.

  19. Thomas Brown says:

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    I suggest you find something to keep yourself occupied while you’re waiting. It may take a very long time.

    Personally, I hope these characters live a long, long time, watching as BHO goes into the history books as the legitimate 44th president, and as a good if not great one… and Birthers are remembered as disloyal morons if they are remembered at all.

    That’s gotta hurt.

    Good.

  20. The truth says:

    “If none of those work for you just exactly what “document” would?”

    His passport for when he traveled to Pakistan, or, any college acceptance documents showing he was not a foreign student?

    “I love the name. Try looking up the word “truth” in your Webster’s. And, by the way, the Hawaii Verification of Birth document verifies and certifies all of the information on the Obama birth certificate. ”

    Unfortunately the person who verified his birth certificate (yeah right) was mysteriously the only person to die in a plane crash in Hawaii, Obama must be very unlucky to have that person dead.

    “Personally, I hope these characters live a long, long time, watching as BHO goes into the history books as the legitimate 44th president, and as a good if not great one… and Birthers are remembered as disloyal morons if they are remembered at all.”

    Obama will go into history indeed, along with the likes of Richard Nixon.

    I will give Obama credit for killing Bin Laden, that is the only thing he has done for this country. He has created a deficit that will ruin America, he has spent more than any president ever has or probably ever will. He should take a lesson from Bill Clinton on how to balance a budget.

    And by the way, it was the Hillary Clinton campaign that revealed Obama’s birth certificate issue?

    If Americans do not wake up and realize our country is being raped we will either be speaking Chinese or Russian in the not to distant future, at least those that will not stand for the American Constitution.

    “Troll”r

    Give me a break, I am an American concerned about his countries future, you should try it.

  21. CarlOrcas says:

    The truth: His passport for when he traveled to Pakistan, or, any college acceptance documents showing he was not a foreign student?

    Why would you believe something like that as opposed to the certified birth certificate from the State of Hawaii? I’ve got all my old passports and if Obama has his wouldn’t your first response be that they were forged or faked or something like that?

    The truth: Unfortunately the person who verified his birth certificate (yeah right) was mysteriously the only person to die in a plane crash in Hawaii, Obama must be very unlucky to have that person dead.

    Loretta Fuddy isn’t the only person to have seen the original document. The others who did are still alive and, of course, the document is still right where they left it.

    The truth: If Americans do not wake up and realize our country is being raped we will either be speaking Chinese or Russian in the not to distant future, at least those that will not stand for the American Constitution.

    How is that going to happen? How soon?

    The truth: Give me a break, I am an American concerned about his countries future, you should try it.

    Americans really concerned about the future of the country don’t try to destroy our leaders.

  22. The truth says:

    “Loretta Fuddy isn’t the only person to have seen the original document. The others who did are still alive and, of course, the document is still right where they left it.”

    Ok, fair statement, who has seen it?

    “Why would you believe something like that as opposed to the certified birth certificate from the State of Hawaii? I’ve got all my old passports and if Obama has his wouldn’t your first response be that they were forged or faked or something like that?

    I have my passports also. If Obama does have his, why would he not prove his identity? He blocks every attempt to discover who he really is. he has spent millions of dollars in attorney fees both personally and at tax payers expense to block evidence. All he has to do is produce evidence and the whole issue will go away. The birth certificate he posted on the WH site has been proven to be electronically altered, any person with an average IQ can study the evidence and realize someone tampered with it.

    “Americans really concerned about the future of the country don’t try to destroy our leaders.”

    True leaders of our country do not try to destroy its own people. Was it unpatriotic when Nixon was looked upon as a criminal?

    There is a lot of pressure building to find the truth, it will come out one way or the other. If I am proven wrong I will apologize but until then there is more than reasonable doubt Obama is a fraud.

  23. Arthur says:

    The truth: I have my passports also. If Obama does have his, why would he not prove his identity?

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0810/Dont_look_birthers_Obamas_passport.html

  24. BillTheCat says:

    The truth:

    Give me a break, I am an American concerned about his countries future, you should try it.

    Give us a break. You’re a seditionist deluded bigot troll. Sanity and reality, you should try it.

  25. Loretta Fuddy, Alvin Onaka and Chiyome Fukino according to official Health Department reports. It’s likely that some other clerical staff have seen it too.

    Why don’t you save everybody some time and read all of the stuff from the Hawaii Department of Health here:

    http://health.hawaii.gov/vitalrecords/faq-obama/

    The truth: Ok, fair statement, who has seen it?

  26. CarlOrcas says:

    The truth: I have my passports also. If Obama does have his, why would he not prove his identity?

    That’s not an answer to my question: Why would you believe his old cancelled passports as opposed to the current material from the State of Hawaii?

    The truth: he has spent millions of dollars in attorney fees both personally and at tax payers expense to block evidence.

    No he hasn’t.

    The truth: The birth certificate he posted on the WH site has been proven to be electronically altered, any person with an average IQ can study the evidence and realize someone tampered with it.

    Nothing has been proven about the PDF on the White House website. It is what it is…..a picture. It is not his birth certificate. Hawaii has certified to the satisfaction of state officials in Arizona and Kansas that he was born in Hawaii. What else do you want?

  27. Whatever4 says:

    The truth:

    he has spent millions of dollars in attorney fees both personally and at tax payers expense to block evidence. All he has to do is produce evidence and the whole issue will go away.

    Absolutely zero of the court cases about Obama’s eligibility would have gone away if Obama had produced brth certificate, passport, or other documents. We’ve read every single one of the 200+ cases, we know.

  28. Bonsall Obot says:

    The quality of trolls visiting here has dropped markedly in the last year or so; President Barack Obama’s decisive re-election seems to have taken the wind out of their sails.

  29. American Mzungu says:

    The truth: Give me a break,

    Why should we give you a break? You are a troll, and not a very good one at that.

  30. The truth says:

    So a troll is someone who does not agree with your opinion of the facts? Just remember I told you so when the truth is finally brought to justice.

  31. American Mzungu says:

    The truth: So a troll is someone who does not agree with your opinion of the facts? Just remember I told you so when the truth is finally brought to justice.

    If you want to be taken seriously as a troll, you need to go back to “troll school” and learn your trade.

  32. Andrew Vrba, PmG says:

    American Mzungu: If you want to be taken seriously as a troll, you need to go back to “troll school” and learn your trade.

    I know right? I’ve seen better trolling by 13 year old Gamefaqs users.

  33. For my definition, see:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/02/march-of-the-trolls/

    The truth: So a troll is someone who does not agree with your opinion of the facts? Just remember I told you so when the truth is finally brought to justice.

  34. The truth says:

    Dr Conspiracy, When I found this site, I read your comment ” If you don’t agree with what you see, feel free to add your thoughts to the over 200,000 comments others have left.”. It appears to me that if someone does not agree with the content of this site opinion you are deemed a “troll”. If people deem me a troll that is fine, you are free to do so. I have not slandered anyone on a personal level but most comments directed back at me are on a personal level. It seems to me this is a one sided conversation, take it or leave it, our way or the highway. I have simply pointed out the discrepancies in what people perceive as fact vs fiction. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that’s what makes this a great country, it is a shame that it all boils down to name calling and cheap insults when questions are presented and no factual answer is provided.

  35. Whatever4 says:

    The truth:

    Everyone is entitled to an opinion, that’s what makes this a great country, it is a shame that it all boils down to name calling and cheap insults when questions are presented and no factual answer is provided.

    Folks here are used to drive-by trolls, who ask questions that have been answered many times and then never post again. We used to give detailed answers to the ether. If you aren’t a drive-by troll, welcome! Ask away.

  36. American Mzungu says:

    Troll who whine are pathetic.

  37. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth:
    Unfortunately, after Obama is exposed once and for all, all of the Obots will become another unemployed American thus driving up our tax burden even further. They could of course write a best selling book on how they were deceived, I would probably buy one just to see how they were physiologically transformed into someone who does not seek truth. And I would like someone to present me with one document proving Obama is an American citizen, just one, does someone here have such a document? It is not his birth certificate, not his SSN or his selective service record, by the way not one person of his graduating class at the college he claims to have attended for two years recognizes him, not one! This is a very mysterious man indeed. I will give him credit, he is an expert at fraud, of course he does get a lot of help.

    Translation: Any day now you will all suffer including your little dog too.

  38. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: His passport for when he traveled to Pakistan, or, any college acceptance documents showing he was not a foreign student?

    Why would he need a different passport for Pakistan? Americans were allowed to travel there during that time period. So you want documents to prove a negative when you guys have never proved he was a foreign student. It would make no sense for him to be considering he lived and went to school in the US for most of his younger life.

    The truth: Unfortunately the person who verified his birth certificate (yeah right) was mysteriously the only person to die in a plane crash in Hawaii, Obama must be very unlucky to have that person dead.

    Ummm no before Fuddy was Dr. Fukino and Alvin Onaka both very much alive. There is no mystery behind her dying of shock during a plane crash.

  39. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth:
    So a troll is someone who does not agree with your opinion of the facts? Just remember I told you so when the truth is finally brought to justice.

    Where did someone say that. You’ve presented no facts. A troll presents long discredited information and when asked questions on it refuses to engage.

  40. Whatever4 says:

    The truth:
    … by the way not one person of his graduating class at the college he claims to have attended for two years recognizes him, not one!

    Although this isn’t in the form of a question, here’s your answer. Not true, people do remember Obama from Columbia. Just not Wayne Alyn Root, who ran against Obama for president in 2008 on the Libertarian ticket. Here’s some who do remember Obama: http://www.thefogbow.com/special-reports/people-remember-president-obama/friends-2/#Columbia Note there are classmates, fellow students, and professors who remember Obama from Columbia.

    Why didn’t Root remember Obama? http://www.thefogbow.com/special-reports/foreign-aid/ Read this and comment.

  41. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: by the way not one person of his graduating class at the college he claims to have attended for two years recognizes him, not one!

    You claim to be interested in the truth and yet you repeat some easily verifiable false claims.

    Just one example his roommate & Classmate Phil Boerner
    http://www.college.columbia.edu/cct/jan_feb09/alumni_corner

    His classmate Michael J. Wolf
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/30/us/politics/30obama.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0

    Michael J. Wolf, who took the seminar with him and went on to become president of MTV Networks, said: “He was very smart. He had a broad sense of international politics and international relations. It was a class with a lot of debate. He was a very, very active participant. I think he was truly distinctive from the other people in that class. He stood out.”

    http://www.columbiaspectator.com/2008/09/11/after-long-absence-obama-cc-83-speaks-alma-mater

    Classmate Michael Ackerman

    http://www.factcheck.org/2010/02/factcheck-mailbag-week-of-feb-16-feb-22/

    Classmate Cathie Currie

    So again you lie

  42. Majority Will says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: You claim to be interested in the truth and yet you repeat some easily verifiable false claims.

    Just one example his roommate & Classmate Phil Boerner
    http://www.college.columbia.edu/cct/jan_feb09/alumni_corner

    His classmate Michael J. Wolf
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/30/us/politics/30obama.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0

    Michael J. Wolf, who took the seminar with him and went on to become president of MTV Networks, said: “He was very smart. He had a broad sense of international politics and international relations. It was a class with a lot of debate. He was a very, very active participant. I think he was truly distinctive from the other people in that class. He stood out.”

    http://www.columbiaspectator.com/2008/09/11/after-long-absence-obama-cc-83-speaks-alma-mater

    Classmate Michael Ackerman

    http://www.factcheck.org/2010/02/factcheck-mailbag-week-of-feb-16-feb-22/

    Classmate Cathie Currie

    So again you lie

    And “true” to form, a birther troll will refuse to acknowledge any errors.

    The hardcore bigots never do.

  43. The truth says:

    Whatever4: Folks here are used to drive-by trolls, who ask questions that have been answered many times and then never post again. We used to give detailed answers to the ether. If you aren’t a drive-by troll, welcome! Ask away.

    I appreciate the opportunity to ask you a question, it appears you have been here for a good length of time by your responses. I also appreciate you have not pre-judged my opinion enough to try and insult me on a personal level, thank you.
    I just found this site today, I have studied this issue for many months and have tried to make sense of what the truth really is. I came here to try and evaluate what is real and is available to the public to make a defined decision on who Obama is in a historical context. I was surprised to see such a one sided opinion and no real discussion about what is known to be fact. It is easy to just say “it is that way because I say so”.
    In my research, I have not been able to find once case proving to me Obama’s past is totally what he says it is. I have found many negative suggestions on who or what he is, I try to decipher all of the disinformation out there. I know for a fact there are people that work daily to slander and demean anyone who even asks a question about Obama, it is evident on almost all blogs.
    I have listened to this “Shrimpton”, I don’t trust his comments, he does not provide any documents just verbal assertions. I have listened to Zullo and he did present documents showing the PDF BC has been altered, I am convinced it is, I have no idea who did it. I have listened to Orly Taitz, she used the legal system in very dubious ways at times, however, I have followed the SSN issue before the courts awaiting a decision on whether or not to release SSN info on a number Obama reportedly used and shown at WH web site, there is definitely something wrong, I don’t understand why the info cannot be released on some Harry Boundel? I know the DOJ has defended Obama at every level of government inquiry, he is the president and should have executive privacy, however, he is also a public elected official and should not be afraid to prove beyond any reasonable doubt he is who he says he is and his history is accurate.
    Many false accusations have been directed at Obama, many probably because he is black and that is unjust and immoral. I personally don’t care what color anyone is, it is the integrity and honestly of a person that matters. It is a fact Obama has made false statements on occasion, he has also changed his stance on major issues leaving confusion on what he really stands for.
    To me, anyone who can mislead someone more than once can certainly be capable of fraud, that is my underlying cause of concern.
    Sorry to ramble on, here are my basic questions;
    1. Why will Obama not release college application information? It was many years ago and if he did not claim being a foreign student what harm would it do?
    2. It seems unusual that a young black man with a single parent could afford a lengthy trip to Pakistan during his early years, not impossible, just unusual. Why not release passport information?
    3. Obama attended very expensive colleges, how did he afford it? There is no information indicating he was born wealthy or had a good paying job at that time.
    4. Did Obama actually claim during college (in his bio) he was born in Kenya? If so, why?
    5. His SSN was posted at WH web site accidently, the entire world can view that number now, why would the SS Administration not release information on another person that was reported to have obtained that same number if it is over 120 years old?
    I can produce any of this evidence for myself and indeed I am required to provide my SS card and original BC to get a drivers license. It only makes sense to me that to be elected the most powerful man in the world he should show that evidence for review, Why fight it? Show the evidence and move on. My apologies but something seems funny to me, maybe I am wrong but my instincts tell me something is not right.

  44. Thomas Brown says:

    BillTheCat: Give us a break. You’re a seditionist deluded bigot troll. Sanity and reality, you should try it.

    The latest troll has the main characteristic for a Grade-A Birther:

    One must be a dupe. A patsy. The opposite of a crtical thinker. Gullible. Intellectually lazy. Easily misled. Ready to believe anything absent documentary evidence.

    A complete and utter fool.

    But it goes beyond that. He or she also must be a crummy human being in certain aspects, as well as a truly abominable citizen.

    “TT” here provides a textbook example.

    Bold claims require firm evidence, so permit me to explain. These accusations are not partisan. Anyone can be a decent human being and a good American, and anyone can be the opposite.

    It is a bad thing to pick up ideas uncritically and spread them around. It is bad for us individually, because it makes one look stupid, and worse it robs one of future credibility. It is bad for the country, for reasons that should be obvious.

    Oh, right… I forgot to whom I was speaking. It won’t be obvious to “TT.”

    The Readers’ Digest version is that a diverse, dynamic society such as ours provides plenty of valid topics of disagreement without inventing them. Bad enough we have been at each others’ throats, the way we were during the Civil War, about real issues. It is not a despicable bit of anarchy to set the citizens at each others’ throats based on a fiction?

    That’s why critical thinking is important. Crucial, in fact… especially today. It’s what keeps one from buying miracle pills that claim they will make you lose weight, regrow your hair and enhance your endowments in ten days or less. It’s what keeps one from sending one’s bank account number to a “Prince” in Nigeria.

    So conscientious folks check out what they hear. That’s what we do, and Birthers don’t. When we heard it claimed that US citizens couldn’t travel to Pakistan in the ’80’s, a debunker discovered that that’s wrong. A lie. Never happened. The same people said “nobody remembers our President at school;” reporters found dozens of them. They claimed his documents were forged, but could find no document examiner who could prove it. They accuse, but never prove.

    How hard is it for you, “TT,” to understand the plain, manifestly true idea that hundreds of partisan propagandists have generated literally thousands of lies about Obama for people like you to gobble up and regurgitate on cue?

    So, if you are kind of a rotten person (at least in this area… you might rescue puppies and lead a Scout troop for all I know) and truly a horrible American, independent of ideology, who then is the opposite?

    The brave men and women in uniform who serve the current Commander-in-Chief, elected by the people, despite not agreeing with him or voting for him. Folks who (like you) despise the president based on garbage they’ve heard. Or whose racist viewpoints make serving an African-American president an onerous thing.

    But also the folks who watched as Bush stupidly and fraudulently sent our fighting folks into Iraq, costing thousands of lives lost and tens of thousands shattered, who nearly caused a second Great Depression, who squandered our moral high ground internationally, and shredded many Constitutional rights we enjoyed domestically. Democrats served him anyway. I guarantee that that rankled.

    Now, he arguably served at the whim of a coin toss. The Court stopped the recount that would have shown he lost the Electoral College. He certainly lost the popular vote. But Democrats, some of whom despised him, served. They faced bullets for America. They could have deserted or failed to report because he “wasn’t really the President.” But they didn’t. They served under the man elected.

    Now, I don’t know what the root of your problem is. I can’t assume your animosity is due to racism. But I do know the general category of your failure as an American:

    Insubordination.

    In organized, law-abiding society, we delegate authority. And we play by the rules. We don’t fight the cops. We don’t insult the Judge and lie under oath. We pay our taxes. It’s called Civilization. We subordinate our wills to proper order.

    But some people claim the right to not play by the rules. To use the fantasy of an illegitimate President as an excuse not to fulfill one’s duty to deploy. To spread any slimy smear about our leader, say vile, ugly crap about his mother, call him a drug addict, a Communist, a homosexual. To aid our enemies and embarrass our allies.

    We could do all that to the next Republican president. We could take up a collection to fund a reward for his assassination, like some pathetic Tea Tard is doing right now. We could trump up baseless scandals and hold witch-hunt “investigations” in Congress. We could invent a mysterious and terrifying identity for him as a usurper based on invented “evidence.” We could try to “destroy him”, as the Right Wing has tried to destroy Obama, and to heck with what’s good for the country.

    But we won’t. We won’t need to. Here’s the REAL truth, “TT” : to beat a Democrat, you have to lie. To defeat a Republican, you only need to tell the truth. We said Bush was incompetent, not that he was intentionally trying to destroy America. We called for him to be impeached, not dragged out in chains and hung.

    Why? Because we are better people than you. But it is not because of our ideology; lots of Conservatives are better Americans than you too.

    But all is not lost. Here’s your first assignment on the road toward decency:

    Look up the chain email that claimed Obama has issued over 900 Executive Orders, more than any other president, and goes on to list their numbers and what they said. Then do a crummy ten minutes of research.

    You’ll discover 1) the numbers are bogus. They were issued in the Kennedy and Johnson years. 2) they don’t say what the email claims. Not even close. Utterly bogus. Baseless, groundless, ugly-minded, irresponsible tripe.

    Then you’ll be ready to discover that literally all the things you think you know about Obama are a pack of lies.

  45. The truth says:

    Thomas Brown: The latest troll has the main characteristic for a Grade-A Birther:

    One must be a dupe.A patsy.The opposite of a crtical thinker.Gullible.Intellectually lazy.Easily misled.Ready to believe anything absent documentary evidence.

    A complete and utter fool.

    But it goes beyond that.He or she also must be a crummy human being in certain aspects, as well as a truly abominable citizen.

    “TT” here provides a textbook example.

    Bold claims require firm evidence, so permit me to explain.These accusations are not partisan.Anyone can be a decent human being and a good American, and anyone can be the opposite.

    It is a bad thing to pick up ideas uncritically and spread them around.It is bad for us individually, because it makes one look stupid, and worse it robs one of future credibility.It is bad for the country, for reasons that should be obvious.

    Oh, right… I forgot to whom I was speaking.It won’t be obvious to “TT.”

    The Readers’ Digest version is that a diverse, dynamic society such as ours provides plenty of valid topics of disagreement without inventing them.Bad enough we have been at each others’ throats, the way we were during the Civil War, about real issues.It is not a despicable bit of anarchy to set the citizens at each others’ throats based on a fiction?

    That’s why critical thinking is important.Crucial, in fact… especially today.It’s what keeps one from buying miracle pills that claim they will make you lose weight, regrow your hair and enhance your endowments in ten days or less.It’s what keeps one from sending one’s bank account number to a “Prince” in Nigeria.

    So conscientious folks check out what they hear.That’s what we do, and Birthers don’t.When we heard it claimed that US citizens couldn’t travel to Pakistan in the ’80′s, a debunker discovered that that’s wrong.A lie.Never happened.The same people said “nobody remembers our President at school;” reporters found dozens of them.They claimed his documents were forged, but could find no document examiner who could prove it.They accuse, but never prove.

    How hard is it for you, “TT,” to understand the plain, manifestly true idea that hundreds of partisan propagandists have generated literally thousands of lies about Obama for people like you to gobble up and regurgitate on cue?

    So, if you are kind of a rotten person (at least in this area… you might rescue puppies and lead a Scout troop for all I know) and truly a horrible American, independent of ideology, who then is the opposite?

    The brave men and women in uniform who serve the current Commander-in-Chief, elected by the people, despite not agreeing with him or voting for him.Folks who (like you) despise the president based on garbage they’ve heard.Or whose racist viewpoints make serving an African-American president an onerous thing.

    But also the folks who watched as Bush stupidly and fraudulently sent our fighting folks into Iraq, costing thousands of lives lost and tens of thousands shattered, who nearly caused a second Great Depression, who squandered our moral high ground internationally, and shredded many Constitutional rights we enjoyed domestically.Democrats served him anyway.I guarantee that that rankled.

    Now, he arguably served at the whim of a coin toss.The Court stopped the recount that would have shown he lost the Electoral College.He certainly lost the popular vote.But Democrats, some of whom despised him, served.They faced bullets for America.They could have deserted or failed to report because he “wasn’t really the President.”But they didn’t.They served under the man elected.

    Now, I don’t know what the root of your problem is.I can’t assume your animosity is due to racism.But I do know the general category of your failure as an American:

    Insubordination.

    In organized, law-abiding society, we delegate authority.And we play by the rules.We don’t fight the cops.We don’t insult the Judge and lie under oath.We pay our taxes.It’s called Civilization.We subordinate our wills to proper order.

    But some people claim the right to not play by the rules.To use the fantasy of an illegitimate President as an excuse not to fulfill one’s duty to deploy.To spread any slimy smear about our leader, say vile, ugly crap about his mother, call him a drug addict, a Communist, a homosexual. To aid our enemies and embarrass our allies.

    We could do all that to the next Republican president.We could take up a collection to fund a reward for his assassination, like some pathetic Tea Tard is doing right now.We could trump up baseless scandals and hold witch-hunt “investigations” in Congress.We could invent a mysterious and terrifying identity for him as a usurper based on invented “evidence.”We could try to “destroy him”, as the Right Wing has tried to destroy Obama, and to heck with what’s good for the country.

    But we won’t.We won’t need to.Here’s the REAL truth, “TT” : to beat a Democrat, you have to lie.To defeat a Republican, you only need to tell the truth.We said Bush was incompetent, not that he was intentionally trying to destroy America.We called for him to be impeached, not dragged out in chains and hung.

    Why?Because we are better people than you.But it is not because of our ideology; lots of Conservatives are better Americans than you too.

    But all is not lost.Here’s your first assignment on the road toward decency:

    Look up the chain email that claimed Obama has issued over 900 Executive Orders, more than any other president, and goes on to list their numbers and what they said.Then do a crummy ten minutes of research.

    You’ll discover 1) the numbers are bogus.They were issued in the Kennedy and Johnson years.2) they don’t say what the email claims.Not even close. Utterly bogus. Baseless, groundless, ugly-minded, irresponsible tripe.

    Then you’ll be ready to discover that literally all the things you think you know about Obama are a pack of lies.

    I asked several simple questions and you answered with a political rant? I did not ask how to invent a watch, I asked what time it was. I don’t care about your ideology, you are free to believe what you want. I am just asking simple questions so that I can deduct by reasoning what the truth is. Hard core liberals always mention Bush to point blame, the fact is, Obama has been president for the last five years and is the object of my questions. What makes you think I didn’t vote for Obama? The truth for me is I vote as an independent because I believe our political system is broken. By the way, I am a veteran and served my country, Jimmy Carter was president at the time, I didn’t like his policies but I did my duty as required. At any rate, I welcome any evidence in regards to my questions.

    Majority Will: And “true” to form, a birther troll will refuse to acknowledge any errors.

    The hardcore bigots never do.

    I have researched your links, I do not have enough information yet on the people who vouched for Obama, an actual picture with them together would help the case. An interesting comment was made by one, she stated the college was the same as when she was there with Obama, students on the steps of the library using laptops to study. I don’t think laptops were the norm in 1983 since they were just invented and some reportedly weighed 24 pounds, windows was not really available until 1985 so they would be working in DOS. Seems unusual to me but possible I suppose. I cant refute any of their comments without further research but I do appreciate the links. This “bigot” will do his best to find out if these are legitimate. Until then, please keep your personal slams to yourself.

  46. Bonsall Obot says:

    Repeating lies you’ve found at Birfer websites and calling yourself an ironic name don’t constitute “research,” pumpkin. Every single question you’ve asked has been answered repeatedly, and for years, on this very website. Why not use the Search function our host has so graciously provided? Unless you intend to continue to spout Birfer nonsense, of course…

  47. Hilary Pete says:

    I keep making this dare, and no one has taken it up – I just keep getting the same rhetoric. If anyone can reproduce this “X” with a pen, I will give up believing this is a fake birth certificate. I f you can’t do it, an open minded true thinker would at least wonder if there are other problems here. Forget all the big stuff – this “X” can’t exist in ink on paper. I don’t care where he was born, I don’t care what color he is. I don’t like being lied to and I just want to know why a faked certificate was necessary.
    http://accidentalpatriot4.wordpress.com/2014/02/01/two-many-coincidences-obama-birth-certificate-fraud/

  48. I got so caught up in your nonsense about box sizes that I didn’t spend much attention on to the smudge.

    But I’m not a forger or a handwriting expert and I presume neither are you, so why should either of us know what is possible?

    Hilary Pete: I keep making this dare, and no one has taken it up – I just keep getting the same rhetoric

  49. John Reilly says:

    Dear Mr. Pete. No one is giving you rhetoric. You cannot analyze the genuineness of a document from a picture of it on the internet.

    On the other hand, the State of Hawaii says that the President was born there. Why do you disbelieve Hawaii but believe a blown up copy of a copy which you think has a smudge. For all we know, the smudge was on the glass on the copier. And why do we care? As I said, the State of Hawaii says he was born there.

  50. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: Unfortunately, after Obama is exposed once and for all, all of the Obots will become another unemployed American thus driving up our tax burden even further.

    The First Amendment precludes this. I thought you believed in the First Amendment, no?

  51. bgansel9 says:

    Hilary Pete: I keep making this dare, and no one has taken it up

    No one takes it up because it’s nonsense that takes up time. You are being ignored.

  52. bgansel9 says:

    Thomas Brown: Look up the chain email that claimed Obama has issued over 900 Executive Orders, more than any other president, and goes on to list their numbers and what they said. Then do a crummy ten minutes of research.

    You’ll discover 1) the numbers are bogus. They were issued in the Kennedy and Johnson years. 2) they don’t say what the email claims. Not even close. Utterly bogus. Baseless, groundless, ugly-minded, irresponsible tripe.

    Here, I’ll even give TT a link to a government website to look up the correct numbers, (see here: http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/disposition.html – and TT you can verify them with other sites too, University of California, Santa Barbara also has the numbers listed on their site). There is a lot of information out there on this. Read something other than conspiracy theorist lies:

  53. Hilary Pete says:

    I’m not saying he wasn’t born in Hawaii. I’m saying this document is not the actual document they have on file. And I think it’s worth my time to find out if I’m being lied to by the White House, and why. We have to analyze the PDF because we have no access to the “real” one. If he hadn’t said he was born in Kenya for so many years, maybe this wouldn’t be an issue now. Ignoring something doesn’t make it less true Bgansel9. If one thing is fraudulent, it’s all fraudulent.You can’t write that “X”, can you?

  54. Thinker says:

    Ah…the smudge that will end Obama’s presidency.

    Any…day…now.

  55. Arthur says:

    Hilary Pete: We have to analyze the PDF because we have no access to the “real” one.

    If you want to waste your time “analyzing” a PDF that is a digital reproduction of the original document, go ahead. But whatever conclusion you come up with is worthless to any real-world investigation, because what you are doing is akin to trying to determine whether a dollar bill is fake by studying a photocopy of it.

  56. Keith (not logged on) says:

    Hilary Pete: If he hadn’t said he was born in Kenya for so many years, maybe this wouldn’t be an issue now.

    Only he has NEVER said he was born in Kenya.

    NEVER.

    At any time.

    So there is NO ‘issue’ is there?

  57. dunstvangeet says:

    Just wondering if anybody will forward this to the Maricopa Board of Commissioners, since Sheriff Arpaio testified to them that no county funds would be used on this investigation, and it’s clear that Arpaio lied to them.

  58. John Reilly says:

    Hilary Pete:
    I’m not saying he wasn’t born in Hawaii. I’m saying this document is not the actual document they have on file. And I think it’s worth my time to find out if I’m being lied to by the White House, and why. We have to analyze the PDF because we have no access to the “real” one. If he hadn’t said he was born in Kenya for so many years, maybe this wouldn’t be an issue now.Ignoring something doesn’t make it less true Bgansel9. If one thing is fraudulent, it’s all fraudulent.You can’t write that “X”, can you?

    You should first try to see your original birth certificate. Generally speaking, as Doc has explained here, the originals are not available for public inspection. But Hawaii says he was born there, just like Indiana says I was born here. The Air Force accepted my birth certificate as true and gave me the keys to some pretty sophisticated aircraft. Do you think they should have gone to the county clerk and demanded to see the original?

  59. dunstvangeet says:

    Hilary Pete:
    I’m not saying he wasn’t born in Hawaii.

    That’s exactly what you’re saying. You just don’t want to admit it. Every indiciation of evidence is that this is a copy of the actual document on file. You have absolutely no evidence that this is not.

    I’m saying this document is not the actual document they have on file.

    Hawaii says differently. And I’m going to trust the entity that authenticates these documents every day over a bunch of people who have no actual forensic experience and have lied to us on multiple occassions. You choose to believe a person who has lied to you over multiple occassions, over the government that is responsible for authenticating them.

    And I think it’s worth my time to find out if I’m being lied to by the White House, and why. We have to analyze the PDF because we have no access to the “real” one.

    Do you think that he should send every man, woman and child in America their own certified copy of his birth certificate? That should only cost somewhere around $1 Billion.

    If he hadn’t said he was born in Kenya for so many years, maybe this wouldn’t be an issue now.

    He didn’t. The only thing that has come out that has any remote connection to him that has any sort of indication that he was born in Kenya was from an unpublished pamphlet where the writer of that pamphlet has said that she didn’t get the information from Obama, and that it was her fact-checking mistake. On the other hand, I can name multiple articles from before he even began running for any sort of office that indicate that his place of birth was actually Hawaii. The fact that you ignore these doesn’t make them less true.

  60. Keith says:

    Hilary Pete:
    I’m not saying he wasn’t born in Hawaii. I’m saying this document is not the actual document they have on file. And I think it’s worth my time to find out if I’m being lied to by the White House, and why. We have to analyze the PDF because we have no access to the “real” one. If he hadn’t said he was born in Kenya for so many years, maybe this wouldn’t be an issue now.Ignoring something doesn’t make it less true Bgansel9. If one thing is fraudulent, it’s all fraudulent.You can’t write that “X”, can you?

    Your focus is in the wrong place. You have been tricked by the smoke into looking at the image in the mirror. The PDF is not the issue, the INFORMATION is the issue.

    You need to focus on the INFORMATION that is recorded on the document.

    The INFORMATION that is recorded on the document that is pertinent to the eligibility question is BIRTH DATE and BIRTH LOCATION. That is all that is relevant. How that INFORMATION is presented to you is irrelevant.

    Even if you were to somehow prove that the PDF was built bit-by-bit in a North Korean sweat shop, that would NOT prove that the INFORMATION was not correct.

    The State of Hawai’i’s official actions, over and over and over again, have verified that the INFORMATION on the documents, both the SFBC and the LFBC are accurate and true. The INFORMATION on the documents agree with the contemporaneous newspaper announcements.

    The correct INFORMATION could have been written on a piece of toilet paper with a crayon, and it still would have been correct INFORMATION. The authorized certification and official seal on a piece of paper, any piece of paper, with birth event INFORMATION on it makes that piece of paper an official Birth Certificate. That certification guarantees that the INFORMATION on the piece of paper is a true copy of the corresponding INFORMATION on the birth record stored in the State’s vault.

    The certification doesn’t magically happen because the document has the “right” wording in the header, or because it is handwritten or photocopied from the vault record, or printed from a computer database, or anything what-so-ever to do with the physical preparation of the document. The certification happens because the official record keeper has verified that the INFORMATION on the document is the same as the INFORMATION on the State’s vault copy and can therefore honestly and legally certify that document as a ‘true copy’.

    There are laws and regulations that control how what INFORMATION must be on a piece of paper before an authorized certification and seal can be applied, but it is still the certification and seal that turn an ordinary piece of paper into a ‘certificate’. Computer files like PDF’s (or JPEG’s or any other file format you want to name) do not have 3D seals; they are not certificates. They are at best images of certificates.

    To repeat: a Birth Certificate is NOT a piece of paper stored in the State Vaults* (though it is casually referred to as such). A Birth Certificate is a Certified and sealed COPY of the Birth Event INFORMATION that are on file with the State. The PDF is not an official Birth Certificate, because it doesn’t have that certification seal (3D, touchy-feely) – it is merely an IMAGE of an official Birth Certificate.

    There is nothing that you can demonstrate about the PDF, how it was built, how it was carried to the White House, how the WH handled it, what steps were taken to publish it on the web, nothing, absolutely nothing, that can challenge the accuracy of the INFORMATION that is relevant to Presidential Eligibility. The State of Hawai’i has certified it.

    The PDF is NOT THE ISSUE. It never has been.

    The INFORMATION is the issue and is the only issue.

    * I understand that some States vault birth records may actually carry the “certification wording” and it is not too much of a stretch beyond that to allow that some may be officially sealed. However when Birth Certificates started being copied by some mechanical process instead of hand written, those seals would have just gotten in the way of the process.

  61. sfjeff says:

    Hilary Pete: I’m not saying he wasn’t born in Hawaii. I’m saying this document is not the actual document they have on file. And I think it’s worth my time to find out if I’m being lied to by the White House, and why. We have to analyze the PDF because we have no access to the “real” one. If he hadn’t said he was born in Kenya for so many years, maybe this wouldn’t be an issue now. Ignoring something doesn’t make it less true Bgansel9. If one thing is fraudulent, it’s all fraudulent.You can’t write that “X”, can you?

    Have you ever wanted to find this out before?

    Everyone else seems to have covered this completely but compare Obama and Bush

    Bush- no birth certificate of any kind- no confirmation of place of birth of any kind.
    Obama- published copies of birth certificate- confirmation by the state he was born in.

    And Obama is the one you doubt.

    Do you see the double standard here?

  62. Sherrif Joe CCP says:

    Hilary Pete March 9, 2014 at 11:24 pm (Quote) #

    I’m not saying he wasn’t born in Hawaii. . If he hadn’t said he was born in Kenya for so many years, maybe this wouldn’t be an issue now. Ignoring something doesn’t make it less true ?.

    “HE” didn’t say he was born in Kenya, a publicist who made a mistake did. Here’s a NY Times article on Obama being named Head of the Law Review at Harvard, printed in 1990, before that self admitted mistake by the publicist. Notice where it says he was born. http://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/06/us/first-black-elected-to-head-harvard-s-law-review.html

  63. Suranis says:

    I read your pile of crap and I notice that you edited out the part where you claimed there was no tool that can het you draw on paper, despite the fact that the pen tool ixists in MS Paint and every other graphics tool in existance. But even then what you have is total rubbish

    “Someone started with a blank certificate scanned into a graphics program, and they needed to add an “X” . They couldn’t just draw it in with a pen as there was no paper document. So they had to graphically design something that resembled handwriting. Pretty ingenious. I DO KNOW this “X’ was not made with a pen”

    Uh huh. There no tool that will let you draw on a graphical image? Thats the whole reason why you think that they had to put it together with 2s in a process that would have taken hours. Well heres a piece that I did with one finger on my mousepad.

    http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff80/Sir_Telemachus/scribbles.jpg

    And there is no way people can create art using nothing but photoshop with no paper involved at all. Like someone making a painting of John Locke from the TV series Lost on photoshop.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K_NQe57C-k

    You see there are these things called light pens and other tools that allow you to do this kind of work.

    As for your X. I’ve seen Xs like that. The Doc just drew a fast x like he had done hundreds of times and then the paper slid when he dropped the rest of the paperwork on it while the ink was still wet, creating a smudge. No stupid 2 techniques needed. If there was no smudge you would be saying that the X was too perfect.

    Hilary Pete:
    I keep making this dare, and no one has taken it up – I just keep getting the same rhetoric. If anyone can reproduce this “X” with a pen, I will give up believing this is a fake birth certificate.

  64. Suranis says:

    Ok lets make this shorter

    “Hey I’ve a new theory about how the X was constructed and we know it mush be true because there’s no was you could draw this without a paper document…”

    “Actually you could.”

    “LALALALALALALALA!!!”

  65. bgansel9 says:

    sfjeff: We have to analyze the PDF because we have no access to the “real” one.

    The PDF isn’t going to answer anything. You have access to Hawaii state officials statements that the Birth Certificate matches their records. WHY do you think Hawaii’s records are wrong? What evidence do you have that they are?

  66. bgansel9 says:

    Keith: The authorized certification and official seal on a piece of paper, any piece of paper, with birth event INFORMATION on it makes that piece of paper an official Birth Certificate

    And of course there’s that declaration at the bottom of the certificate that the document stands as prima facie evidence in court proceedings.

  67. bgansel9 says:

    dunstvangeet: Just wondering if anybody will forward this to the Maricopa Board of Commissioners, since Sheriff Arpaio testified to them that no county funds would be used on this investigation, and it’s clear that Arpaio lied to them.

    I haven’t contacted the Board, but I have contacted the Arizona Republic.

  68. bgansel9 says:

    Hilary Pete: And I think it’s worth my time to find out if I’m being lied to by the White House

    Why do you not seem concerned about being lied to by the Birthers?

  69. bgansel9 says:

    Arthur: If you want to waste your time “analyzing” a PDF that is a digital reproduction of the original document, go ahead. But whatever conclusion you come up with is worthless to any real-world investigation, because what you are doing is akin to trying to determine whether a dollar bill is fake by studying a photocopy of it.

    This!

  70. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    Hilary Pete: I’m not saying he wasn’t born in Hawaii. I’m saying this document is not the actual document they have on file. And I think it’s worth my time to find out if I’m being lied to by the White House, and why. We have to analyze the PDF because we have no access to the “real” one. If he hadn’t said he was born in Kenya for so many years, maybe this wouldn’t be an issue now. Ignoring something doesn’t make it less true Bgansel9. If one thing is fraudulent, it’s all fraudulent.You can’t write that “X”, can you?

    If the content of the pdf matches the original they have on file what would be the point? He didn’t say he was born in Kenya for so many years. Not one time has a birther come across a time where he personally claimed he was.

  71. Arthur says:

    bgansel9: Why do you not seem concerned about being lied to by the Birthers?

    Bingo. And the answer is: because he, like every other birther, is not interested in the truth; rather, he’s interested in cloaking his irrational hatred of Obama under a facade of phony legal arguments that he doesn’t really understand and cannot argue successfully.

  72. The Magic M says:

    Hilary Pete: If anyone can reproduce this “X” with a pen, I will give up believing this is a fake birth certificate.

    And we have a new entry in the neverending list of birthers claiming “If only X did Y, it would all go away”.

    But how far you have fallen, from claiming someone needs to reproduce each and every “anomaly” on the PDF with the single press of a button to “make this ‘X’ with a pen”.

    What’s next, will you claim you will believe Obama’s BC is legit if someone can just prove to you that the smudge in field Y can be generated by sneezing once in close proximity of the document?

  73. Andrew Vrba, PmG says:

    Hilary Pete:
    If anyone can reproduce this “X” with a pen, I will give up believing this is a fake birth certificate.

    Oh brother, if I had a nickle for every time a birther reneged on a similar promise!
    Asked and answered little birther, asked and answered. Now go to your room.

  74. JPotter says:

    Hilary Pete: If anyone can reproduce this “X” with a pen, I will give up believing this is a fake birth certificate.

    Nothing in the images you are referencing was created with a pen, so why are you ‘challenging’ anyone to recreate anything about them with a pen? To properly run your ‘recreate this’ challenge, you need to be hauling around—at the minimum—high quality recreations of the original document (printed on vintage paper), vintage, early-60s writing instruments (with vintage ink), 3 different copy machines, a Mac workstation, and a digital camera (SLR, not a fixed lens point-and-shoot).

    You’re gonna need a bigger car.

    And, I suppose I will have to explain all of this to you ….

  75. W. Kevin Vicklund says:

    Hilary Pete: If anyone can reproduce this “X” with a pen, I will give up believing this is a fake birth certificate.

    I just did. By the way, the tip of my pinky is black. Do you guys think Soros could spring for some GoJo?

  76. American Mzungu says:

    Yesterday on this thread, a double drive-by shooting by trolls. Today, nothing but silence. They just don’t make trolls like they use to.

  77. The truth says:

    American Mzungu:
    Yesterday on this thread, a double drive-by shooting by trolls.Today, nothing but silence.They just don’t make trolls like they use to.

    Actually, I respectfully asked for some answers yesterday and I have not received an answer. The only response is being called a troll. This site is only available to those who are already firm in the belief that Obama is completely innocent of any accusation ever directed at him.

  78. Despite an explicit warning in the subscription email that you can’t do it, our recent birther visitor Hilary Pete replied to several subscription emails trying to post on the blog. So here’s all of them:


    Stranger things have happened. The “X” is the one thing that no one has been able to refute as being a problem on the LFBC.


    If I can’t verify the PDF is fake, how can you verify it’s real? And don’t say “because Hawaii verified it.” Loretta Fuddy is dead and Chiyome Fukino verified that the document she saw was “half typewritten and half handwritten and was properly signed.” Not the document were shown.


    His authors bio said so until 2007. Most bios are written by the author, not the publisher. And in any case, there is not an author in existence who doesn’t read the bio on their first book. It was revised several times over 17 years adding and including his election to the senate. The “born in Kenya” never changed until it became in issue to run for the presidency. He did present himself as being born in Kenya for many years without correction. So who can blame us now for wanting to know which story is true. Have you or anyone you know implied or allowed an inaccurate belief to continue that they were born anywhere other than their real country? Why would anyone do that? That’s why we question it.


    I know that what Chiyomi Fukina described what she saw was ” half typed and half handwritten and properly signed”. That is not an accurate description of what we have been shown. What did she see? Loretta fuddy is dead. And I know that the “x” on the LFBC can’t be made by a human hand, which makes the whole thing a fraud. If you really want conspiracy see the pics of the divers in the water with Loretta Fuddy minutes after the crash that vanish after 3 seconds.


    Well, as most of them believe, as I do, that the birth certificate is a fraud, I don’t think they’re lying. As a matter of fact, I don’t agree with everything they are saying either that’s why all I’m talking about is this one little “x” – no layers or typesetting etc. All I’m saying is that I know this certificate is not the real one that hawaii may or may not have. I want to know why, and I can’t fault others who are on the same path though I may not agree with their conclusions.


    Whoa. I am interested in the truth and that’s why I don’t just accept what I am told by anyone. I look into it myself and make my own decisions. I don’t hate obama, and I have no legal arguements. I know that the “x” on the certificate can’t be made by a human hand. That’s all I’m trying to say. If one thing is wrong on the certificate it all is suspect and I do what the truth of why it was necessary to present a fraudulent document.


    All I’m asking is if anyone can make that “x” with a pen. I haven’t gotten a yes yet just avoidance and sarcasm, which I take as confirmation that I’m onto something.


    I must have missed the answer. Can you write that “x”? And there’s no need to be condescending just because I believe differently than you and am asking a legitimate question to address a legitimate concern about the validity of this document.

  79. Bonsall Obot says:

    Your accusations are unfounded, pumpkin; there’s not one shred of evidence to back them up. So why is anyone obligated to reply, when the answers have been posted on this very site hundreds of times?

    Shoo. Adults are talking now.

  80. The truth says:

    Bonsall Obot:
    Your accusations are unfounded, pumpkin; there’s not one shred of evidence to back them up. So why is anyone obligated to reply, when the answers have been posted on this very site hundreds of times?

    Shoo. Adults are talking now.

    Pumpkin? That is twice you have said that, I don’t know if its just a bad habit or your means of trying to demean me, either way it is rude and not very adult like. A typical response here seems to avoid the questions and not provide answers? You are correct, nobody is obliged to answer anything and you are free to continue avoiding the subject at hand.

  81. Both of your sentences are lies, the first because it was not an “author’s bio” as it was written about a speculative book project that was never written. I have little patience for people who make stuff up, and try to pass it off as fact.

    Dr. Conspiracy: His authors bio said so until 2007. Most bios are written by the author, not the publisher.

  82. Bonsall Obot says:

    The truth: A typical response here seems to avoid the questions and not provide answers? avoiding the subject at hand.

    Reading comprehension much? I have told you twice, pumpkin: every question you’ve asked has already been asked before, by much better trolls, and answered before, on this very site. You refuse to accept the answers to these settled questions.

    I am going to break your little heart here: no matter what your mommy told you, no matter what your Special Ed teachers or independent-living aides may have told you, you are not, in fact, a Special Snowflake. No one is required to spoon-feed you the answers to your questions, which are already on the site, if you’d bother to search for and READ them. Being a Birfer-Come-Lately doesn’t mean we have to start from Birf One, just for you.

  83. bgansel9 says:

    Dr. Conspiracy: I must have missed the answer. Can you write that “x”? And there’s no need to be condescending just because I believe differently than you and am asking a legitimate question to address a legitimate concern about the validity of this document.

    I’m sorry Hilary Pete, I did not address the X. Quite honestly it’s an issue that I haven’t studied. I am more interested in legalities than technology anomalies. There are plenty of people here who have studied the X and they have addressed it.

  84. The truth says:

    Bonsall Obot: Reading comprehension much? I have told you twice, pumpkin: every question you’ve asked has already been asked before, by much better trolls, and answered before, on this very site. You refuse to accept the answers to these settled questions.

    I am going to break your little heart here: no matter what your mommy told you, no matter what your Special Ed teachers or independent-living aides may have told you, you are not, in fact, a Special Snowflake. No one is required to spoon-feed you the answers to which are already on the site, if you’d bother to search for and READ them. Being a Birfer-Come-Lately doesn’t mean we have to start from Birf One, just for you.

    The usual response, derogatory and defaming. I have not insulted anyone here I simply asked several questions. Now I will finally concede and stoop to your level and state that if you cleaned up a few of your insults (not many), you could replace Jay Carney and the rest of the white house staff.

  85. bgansel9 says:

    Bonsall Obot: I am going to break your little heart here: no matter what your mommy told you, no matter what your Special Ed teachers or independent-living aides may have told you, you are not, in fact, a Special Snowflake

    Don’t do that when I’m drinking coffee. LMAO

  86. JPotter says:

    The truth: Pumpkin? That is twice you have said that, I don’t know if its just a bad habit or your means of trying to demean me, either way it is rude and not very adult like.

    This ya firs’ time down South? Wayull, come on back ennytime, Punkin’!

    And bless yo’ swee’ lil pea-pickin’ heart 🙂

  87. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: The usual response, derogatory and defaming. I have not insulted anyone here I simply asked several questions. Now I will finally concede and stoop to your level and state that if you cleaned up a few of your insults (not many), you could replace Jay Carney and the rest of the white house staff.

    The search box is at the top of the page just below Dr. Conspiracy’s picture. I have searched many articles here. It is a great resource. You should use it.

  88. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Actually, I respectfully asked for some answers yesterday and I have not received an answer. The only response is being called a troll. This site is only available to those who are already firm in the belief that Obama is completely innocent of any accusation ever directed at him.

    Several people gave you answers you just ignored them as birthers are wont to do.

  89. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Pumpkin? That is twice you have said that, I don’t know if its just a bad habit or your means of trying to demean me, either way it is rude and not very adult like. A typical response here seems to avoid the questions and not provide answers? You are correct, nobody is obliged to answer anything and you are free to continue avoiding the subject at hand.

    Search the site Truth there is a pretty good index at the top to address every false claim you’ve made. You have to understand by now we’ve heard every birther claim about a thousand times over and it’s simply disrespectful of you not to use this site’s resources to answer your questions.

  90. Bonsall Obot says:

    The Latest Birfer Troll said: The usual response, derogatory and defaming.

    Getting the idea that, after five years, trolls asking the same questions (most irrelevant) dozens or hundreds of times are dismissed post-haste?

    Here’s a hint, pumpkin: ask a NEW question, or even one that’s only been asked a half-dozen times. I bet you get a LOT of responses… and that you won’t like a single one of them.

    But asking the same old troll questions about long-debunked Birfer legends? Yeah, not gonna bother. Use the goddamn search function, sweet pea.

  91. The truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Several people gave you answers you just ignored them as birthers are wont to do.

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Several people gave you answers you just ignored them as birthers are wont to do.

    Actually I did respond to your post, please read my comments. In the first article the person who lived with Obama for several years that vouched for him did not have a picture of the two together, at least not that I have found. I also commented on the lady and laptop computers in 1983. As far as the CEO of MTV I have not looked into that yet. Columbia college still remains a question for me, I do not doubt he was there, I question the amount of time since he was in Pakistan during those years.

  92. Why?

    The truth: I question the amount of time since he was in Pakistan during those years.

  93. Bonsall Obot says:

    Mommy’s Special Snowflake said:

    by the way not one person of his graduating class at the college he claims to have attended for two years recognizes him, not one!

    But later, when proved a liar said:
    Columbia college still remains a question for me, I do not doubt he was there, I question the amount of time since he was in Pakistan during those years.

    These are contradictory statements, pumpkin. No goalpost-moving, you’re not good at it.

  94. James M says:

    The truth: I asked several simple questions and you answered with a political rant? I did not ask how to invent a watch, I asked what time it was. I don’t care about your ideology, you are free to believe what you want.I am just asking simple questions so that I can deduct by reasoning what the truth is.

    What claim are you making?

    What do you believe that President Obama did, or didn’t do, that is illegal?

    Did he commit a crime? Violate a criminal statute? Cause some specific civil damage?

    Did he disobey a lawful order?

    Nobody can answer your questions or even effectively communicate with you if you can’t identify your issue, or explain why your issue would be an important matter to someone else.

    So start with the most basic, essential, necessary element:

    What do you believe President Obama did, or didn’t do, which constitutes a crime? You must be specific. If you cannot answer this, then the only conclusion is that you have some problem with a person’s lawful actions. It tends to not be easy to get other people interested in that.

  95. Arthur says:

    The truth: This site is only available to those who are already firm in the belief that Obama is completely innocent of any accusation ever directed at him.

    I am convinced by the evidence, the arguments, and the law, that Obama is eligible to be president. It’s not a question of belief. If you want to accuse him of other things, I’m listening, but as far as the constitutional qualifications to be president, he’s got them. People who have questions about this long-settled issue are either blinded by their extreme politics, mentally ill, or some combination of the two.

  96. Majority Will says:

    The truth: The usual response, derogatory and defaming. I have not insulted anyone here I simply asked several questions

    Your first post:

    “Oh the obots sure do dream, in their world there is no deception by Obama. He WILL be exposed, the lies will overcome him and he will fail to convince anyone otherwise. If he is a citizen, all he needs to do is show evidence and not hide behind attorneys? There is not one shred of evidence he is a citizen, not one! I cant wait for the day he is impeached for fraud, all the people who laughed about “birthers” will hang their head in shame.”

    Do you understand the meaning of irony? How about outright lying (re: “I have not insulted anyone here . . .”)?

    You come across as a jackass from the start and then make demands for information. That’s adorable.

    “Unfortunately, after Obama is exposed once and for all, all of the Obots will become another unemployed American thus driving up our tax burden even further.”

    You sure do have a way of sugar coating it and then playing the victim.

    bigoted: having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one’s own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others.

    Yeah, it fits.

  97. The truth says:

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Why?

    I have read various articles stating he was at Columbia for two years, I believe Obama stated he was in Pakistan for several months, yet others state he was there for well over a year? What are the facts? I would assume he needed full credits to obtain acceptance to Harvard. I understand he has a friend that was from Pakistan so it is not alarming he would travel there, however, it is not clear what the duration was. Pakistan in 1982-83 or when ever he was there was not an ideal place for an American to be at that time, there were not travel restrictions but was there a warning to US citizens against travel there? If he has an American passport I would think he would be very nervous about being there, if it was a passport from another country he would not have been as threatened. I am just trying to piece together the truth about what documents were used, they are not publicly available that I am aware of, maybe you have the evidence?

  98. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Actually I did respond to your post, please read my comments. In the first article the person who lived with Obama for several years that vouched for him did not have a picture of the two together, at least not that I have found

    Is that your level of proof now a picture of the two together? So originally you came in here and claimed that no one from Columbia knew him meanwhile I give you articles from several alumni who knew him, went to class with him thus negating your claim and now you want pictures of them together? Sounds like you’re moving the goalposts. You do know that one of the articles I gave you was posted on Columbia’s website?

    This is why people have such disdain for utter dishonesty that you exhibit. Rather than admit you were wrong in your claim you ask for further proof.

    Here’s another article: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/recollections-of-obamas-ex-roommate/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

    The truth: I question the amount of time since he was in Pakistan during those years.

    Again do you guys not use any sort of logic? You do know that spring breaks, summer vacations and winter vacations are time that students have off from school. It is said he traveled to Pakistan between his transfer from Occidental to Columbia. So again you believe a claim that is false, have it proven false and you still ask for more. Birthers remind me of the children’s book If You Give a Mouse a Cookie

  99. Hilary Pete says:

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Both of your sentences are lies, the first because it was not an “author’s bio” as it was written about a speculative book project that was never written. I have little patience for people who make stuff up, and try to pass it off as fact.

    Sorry I misunderstood how to use your site and who was supposed to comment on it. I didn’t know I was a Troll… With regards to me “making stuff up”, see source here, and I can find more. This is from Archive.org – Obama’s literary agents website (not publisher – my bad) from Feb 2007. It mentions Dreams From My Father (not a speculative book) and it says “born in Kenya.” https://web.archive.org/web/20070226114802/http://www.dystel.com/clientlist.html#o
    and here it is from October 2007 – completely different – now he is born in Hawaii
    https://web.archive.org/web/20071017142654/http://dystel.com/clientlist.html#o

    You really can’t blame people for wondering which one is true…

  100. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: I have read various articles stating he was at Columbia for two years, I believe Obama stated he was in Pakistan for several months, yet others state he was there for well over a year?

    Which articles make the claims? Can you point us to some? Best I’ve seen is he was there between when he transferred from Occidental to Columbia.

    The truth: Pakistan in 1982-83 or when ever he was there was not an ideal place for an American to be at that time, there were not travel restrictions but was there a warning to US citizens against travel there?

    You do realize that a travel warning is pretty common regardless of the place. Check the state department website for random places. Take for instance Mexico, There is a travel warning for US Citizens

    http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/alertswarnings/mexico-travel-warning.html

    When I went to the Dominican Republic on my honeymoon years back there was a travel warning when it came to keeping your innoculations up to date because of dengue fever. A travel warning isn’t a ban on travel it just is a warning to make Americans be aware of certain conditions.

    Why would he be nervous about being there? Pakistan travel was encouraged during that time period.

    You could have found more information here right on the site if you bothered looking at the resources available at the top of the page.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2008/12/barack-obama-traveled-to-pakistan-on-an-indonesian-passport/

  101. The truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Is that your level of proof now a picture of the two together?So originally you came in here and claimed that no one from Columbia knew him meanwhile I give you articles from several alumni who knew him, went to class with him thus negating your claim and now you want pictures of them together?Sounds like you’re moving the goalposts.You do know that one of the articles I gave you was posted on Columbia’s website?

    This is why people have such disdain for utter dishonesty that you exhibit.Rather than admit you were wrong in your claim you ask for further proof.

    Here’s another article: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/recollections-of-obamas-ex-roommate/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

    Again do you guys not use any sort of logic?You do know that spring breaks, summer vacations and winter vacations are time that students have off from school.It is said he traveled to Pakistan between his transfer from Occidental to Columbia.So again you believe a claim that is false, have it proven false and you still ask for more. Birthers remind me of the children’s book If You Give a Mouse a Cookie

    Actually I prefer the book “Who moved my cheese”. It seems that everything related to Obama is slanted one way or the other, birther or Obot. With all due respect, two separate pictures of two different people does not provide evidence they know each other. Is there a document or statement Obama has made verifying the they knew each other? That would help the case. I have not moved any goal post, I am trying to see hard factual evidence. There are many pictures of Obama in elementary school and high school that have been verified by people in the pictures, are there pictures of Columbia students in a picture verifying this?

  102. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    Hilary Pete: You really can’t blame people for wondering which one is true

    Read the article:
    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/born-kenya-obamas-literary-agent-misidentified-birthplace-1991/story?id=16372566

  103. Jim says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater:
    Birthers remind me of the children’s book If You Give a Mouse a Cookie

    I WANT A COOKIE!!! 😛

  104. Bonsall Obot says:

    Another Troll said:

    You really can’t blame people for wondering which one is true…

    The State of Hawaii has verified that he was born in Hawaii. His literary agent has admitted she made a mistake, on her own. President Barack Obama has never, himself, claimed to have been born in Kenya or anywhere but Hawaii.

    So you can stop “wondering.”

  105. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Actually I prefer the book “Who moved my cheese”. It seems that everything related to Obama is slanted one way or the other, birther or Obot.

    Slanted? The only one doing the slanting here is you. You claimed that no one remembered him at Columbia. This was proven false and a lie. Why don’t you admit you were wrong like an adult?

    The truth: With all due respect, two separate pictures of two different people does not provide evidence they know each other.

    And again you’re moving the goalposts. You said no one remembered him at Columbia. The articles I showed you are statements from people who remembered him. Thus proving your claim to be false. So you’re basically saying these people must be lying about remembering him because you don’t want to believe it?

    The truth: That would help the case. I have not moved any goal post, I am trying to see hard factual evidence

    No, you are ignoring evidence which doesn’t conform to your delusions. Yes you have. Your original claim was that no one remembered him from Columbia. I gave you several articles from people “remembering Obama at Columbia” thus negating your accusation.

    You wonder why people here ridicule you? Because you make statements that aren’t true and then move the goalposts when they’re proven not to be true.

    The truth: There are many pictures of Obama in elementary school and high school that have been verified by people in the pictures, are there pictures of Columbia students in a picture verifying this?

    So again you’re moving the goal posts. Your claim wasn’t that people had pictures of Obama and them together it was that no one remembered him. When this claim was proven false now you’re asking for pictures of people who remembered him there.

    Those goal posts must be getting pretty heavy.

  106. Bonsall Obot says:

    Mommy’s Special Snowflake said: Is there a document or statement Obama has made verifying the they knew each other? That would help the case

    What “case” are you referring to, pumpkin? And when did this become a standard of evidence? You do realize that Columbia has verified his attendance and graduation, and that numerous classmates have as well (thus proving you a liar?) You do realize that this is settled, and that continuing to change the “standards” of “evidence” is the very definition of goalpost-moving? And that this makes you a troll?

  107. Jim says:

    The truth: It seems that everything related to Obama is slanted one way or the other, birther or Obot.

    BWAHAHAHAHA!!! I think you’ve forgotten a few…a majority of the electorate, the Electoral College, the Congress, the courts, and every sane individual in the world knows the President is eligible. Not all of them are anti-birthers…in fact most of them haven’t a clue about birthers except they are fringe nut-jobs. You wish it was just us vs them…but it’s not even a contest! 😆

  108. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Why will Obama not release college application information? It was many years ago and if he did not claim being a foreign student what harm would it do?

    Why should he? You’re the one claiming he was a foreign student the onus is on you to prove the accusation. This accusation is based entirely on an april fools day hoax that was brought into the birther lexicon. Why should Obama have to release college application information when no one before him has had to?

    Also your idea that he must have been a foreign student makes no sense. He was only out of the country for 4 years as a child. Most of his childhood was spent in American schools. So he would have never been considered a foreign student. He could have been born in Europe, came to school here his senior year of high school and went to college here and wouldn’t been considered a foreign student.

    The truth: 2. It seems unusual that a young black man with a single parent could afford a lengthy trip to Pakistan during his early years, not impossible, just unusual. Why not release passport information?

    Just because you couldn’t do it doesn’t mean Obama couldn’t. What does affording to go to Pakistan have to do with passport information? One thing has nothing to do with the other.

    The truth: 3. Obama attended very expensive colleges, how did he afford it? There is no information indicating he was born wealthy or had a good paying job at that time.

    Scholarships and personal loans. He talks about it in his book and only recently paid them off with his book royalties.

    The truth: 4. Did Obama actually claim during college (in his bio) he was born in Kenya? If so, why?

    What? Your question would involve time travel. Both of his books he said he was born in Hawaii. His first book was published in 1995 long after he graduated college. Thus there was no “claim during college” that he was born in Kenya. So again another false claim by you.

    The truth: His SSN was posted at WH web site accidently, the entire world can view that number now, why would the SS Administration not release information on another person that was reported to have obtained that same number if it is over 120 years old?

    Again a false question based on a faulty premise. It was not “reported” that someone obtained the same number. It was claimed by someone who wouldn’t know that that happened based on a trust Obama had on his house in a database which isn’t reliable. The “bounel” name was the second name that Orly claimed. Originally it was Jean Paul Ludwig. When it was shown Jean Paul had a different social Orly claimed it was then a Harry Bounel. SS has been unable to find a Harry Bounel that matches the claims made by birthers most likely because the person’s name was Harry Boymel and had a different social.

  109. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    Bonsall Obot: What “case” are you referring to, pumpkin? And when did this become a standard of evidence? You do realize that Columbia has verified his attendance and graduation, and that numerous classmates have as well (thus proving you a liar?) You do realize that this is settled, and that continuing to change the “standards” of “evidence” is the very definition of goalpost-moving? And that this makes you a troll?

    I find it adorable how he started with claiming no one remembered him then when shown people remembered him he changes the standard. So using his logic anyone he may have met 20+ years ago has to show a picture of them standing together to prove that they knew him.

  110. The truth says:

    James M: What claim are you making?

    What do you believe that President Obama did, or didn’t do, that is illegal?

    Did he commit a crime?Violate a criminal statute?Cause some specific civil damage?

    Did he disobey a lawful order?

    Nobody can answer your questions or even effectively communicate with you if you can’t identify your issue, or explain why your issue would be an important matter to someone else.

    So start with the most basic, essential, necessary element:

    What do you believe President Obama did, or didn’t do, which constitutes a crime?You must be specific.If you cannot answer this, then the only conclusion is that you have some problem with a person’s lawful actions.It tends to not be easy to get other people interested in that.

    The offense, if there is one, would be a violation of the constitution for not being a natural born citizen. There are several problems with that article, it does not specify that it must be verified or investigated prior to an election. Is that Obama’s fault, no it is not, it is a fault in our laws. That being stated, has any other president had to prove citizenship, probably not. The problem is, when questioned on documents they are not provided faithfully and they are blocked by the justice dept., that in and of itself creates conspiracy theory. It seems so simply obvious to me that if there were no issue it could be very easily proven by releasing at least several documents proving once and for all there is not an issue but yet after five years these inquiries are blocked still by attorneys. The only document provided was a birth certificate that appears to have been electronically altered, do I think Obama did it, no I do not, but, who did and why? Maybe it was a typo they wanted to make politically correct and they used bad judgment but someone should just admit it.

  111. Thomas Brown says:

    Listen up, Trolls. This is important.

    To figure out which side is correct, you don’t even need to examine content. You could draw a formal conclusion from behavior alone.

    A major right-wing mantra (among the modern crazy conservatives, not the old-fashioned ones) is “You can’t trust any other source but right-wing media.” And every single site with information that conflicts with their dogma is just lies. Liberal lies. Over and over.

    We on this side are not afraid of anyone gathering a wide variety of information from diverse sources. Please do. That’s how confident we are that we are the ones living in the real world, and the wingnuts are not.

    SO: One side wants you to not even listen to or read any other sources but them. In fact, to assume beforehand the others– every source in the world– are lying. The other side says go ahead and read whatever source you wish. The more the better.

    You folks ever heard of Con Men? Short for confidence, the con game is to get the mark’s trust and then use him for personal gain. Usually financial, but it works with political gain as well. When he has been granted some level of thrust, the Con Man will start to say things like “Now, your family and friends may try to talk you out of this. Don’t listen. Are they experts like I am? No. Some will be jealous when your investment returns 1000%. But stay strong” and “You may read in the mainstream news that this scheme is bogus, but that’s so the writers can invest before you do. It’s all lies. Don’t listen.”

    Sound familiar? Observe: Progressive sites and opinions don’t do this. When it comes to educating oneself, we say “The more the better.”

    Ignoring the players involved if you can, which side is the better bet? The one who isn’t afraid of outside opinions or the one who is deathly afraid of them?

    Another thing:

    You guys want to Impeach the President, thinking we’ll say “No! You rotten Republicans!” as if we and Obama had something to hide.

    I say: Go for it. Because an impeachment is like an indictment, and next comes a trial based on admissible evidence. And Congress would find nothing but proof of what they and we already know: Obama is no mystery man; he is exactly who he and we have said he is.

    Again, all you need is the formal look: Know why the Republican/Wingnut House hasn’t done an impeachment proceeding yet? Simple: When you Impeach, and your accusations prove to be hogwash, your party is damaged and the President’s isn’t. Just the opposite of what you wanted.

    In sum: One side says “A crime has been committed! We should prosecute!” but then they don’t. The other side says “What crime? Where’s the evidence? Go ahead, bring it on, try to get an indictment; it’s all swamp gas!”

    Again, which side is probably in the right?

    I know you ain’t no shepherds. But wake the flock up.

  112. Majority Will says:

    The truth: Actually I prefer the book “Who moved my cheese”. It seems that everything related to Obama is slanted one way or the other, birther or Obot.

    More reading for you:
    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/05/publishers-booklet-obama-born-in-kenya/

  113. Majority Will says:

    Hilary Pete: Sorry I misunderstood how to use your site and who was supposed to comment on it. I didn’t know I was a Troll… With regards to me “making stuff up”, see source here, and I can find more. This is from Archive.org– Obama’s literary agents website (not publisher – my bad) from Feb 2007. It mentions Dreams From My Father (not a speculative book) and it says “born in Kenya.” https://web.archive.org/web/20070226114802/http://www.dystel.com/clientlist.html#o
    and here it is from October 2007 – completely different – now he is born in Hawaii
    https://web.archive.org/web/20071017142654/http://dystel.com/clientlist.html#o

    You really can’t blame people for wondering which one is true…

    More reading for you too:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/05/publishers-booklet-obama-born-in-kenya/

  114. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: The offense, if there is one, would be a violation of the constitution for not being a natural born citizen

    You have not proven this.

    The truth: The problem is, when questioned on documents they are not provided faithfully and they are blocked by the justice dept., that in and of itself creates conspiracy theory

    Sorry but you’re not having valid questions on the documents. It’s rather funny that the one guy who provided documents before becoming President you question but those who didn’t you say oh no big deal. Wrong Obama did provide the information in good faith and instead birthers have acted in bad faith. They got the short form that wasn’t good enough for you and you claimed oh this would all be over if he provided the long form. When he showed that you claimed no one has verified it. When it was verified you say it’s still not good enough and you continue to move the goal posts more which is why you’re now talking about some nonexistent foreign student status or his social or some other random nonsense that has nothing to do with presidential qualifications.

    The justice department hasn’t impeded you in any way. Why don’t you try being honest with yourself. Under what conceivable scenario would you accept that he’s the President?

    The truth: It seems so simply obvious to me that if there were no issue it could be very easily proven by releasing at least several documents proving once and for all there is not an issue but yet after five years these inquiries are blocked still by attorneys.

    Still goal post moving. Which documents do you require now on top of the ones you’ve already seen? What gives you precedence and authority for getting those documents?

    The truth: The only document provided was a birth certificate that appears to have been electronically altered, do I think Obama did it, no I do not, but, who did and why?

    This is how slow you are on the uptake. The birth certificate isn’t “altered” it was verified by the issuing authority.

    Just a list of documents you birthers have gotten
    1. Short form birth certificate
    2. Birth announcements from 1961
    3. Passport records from Stanley Ann Dunham
    4. INS documents for Barack Obama Sr
    5. Tax returns for Barack Obama Jr
    6. Selective Service Registration for Barack Obama Jr
    7. INS Records for Lolo Soetoro
    8. Divorce records for Stanley Ann Dunham
    9. Article Obama wrote while at Columbia
    10. 2 books written by Obama before being president

    So yeah that’s quite a bit. I’m sure Dr. C can tell you some more.

  115. American Mzungu says:

    The truth: Maybe it was a typo they wanted to make politically correct and they used bad judgment but someone should just admit it.

    Spit it out. Just what are you trying to say? I hope you aren’t referring to the use of racial identifier “African” on the birth certificate!

  116. The truth says:

    American Mzungu: Spit it out.Just what are you trying to say?I hope you aren’t referring to the use of racial identifier “African” on the birth certificate!

    Why would it not say African when it states the father is from Kenya? Was it supposed to say black? What does that have to do with it? There is a lot of information like dates, times, signatures etc that I would look at, not whether or not Obama is from African ancestry, that should be obvious.

  117. bgansel9 says:

    Thomas Brown: You folks ever heard of Con Men? Short for confidence, the con game is to get the mark’s trust and then use him for personal gain.

    I just recently watched “The House of Games” with Joe Mantegna and Linsday Crouse (former spouse of David Mamet, who directed), anyone who doesn’t understand what a “confidence game” is, should see this movie. It’s available on Amazon Prime.

  118. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: Why would it not say African when it states the father is from Kenya?

    Africa is a continent, not a nation. Does your birth certificate say North American?

  119. The truth says:

    “This is how slow you are on the uptake. The birth certificate isn’t “altered” it was verified by the issuing authority.”

    What I said was the BC shown on the WH page was electronically altered, it is a PDF file. How would any of us know what the originally constructed document shows unless we saw it first hand? We need to take it on faith from three people in Hawaii apparently, one of whom is dead. Did any of the people from Hawaii that verified it in person also verify by statement the document shown on the WH site was an exact copy?

  120. The truth says:

    bgansel9: Africa is a continent, not a nation. Does your birth certificate say North American?

    With all due respect, I was responding to a direct question so you are out of context. See the response to the question. I am well aware that Africa is a continent and not a country but thank you for the confirmation.

  121. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: What I said was the BC shown on the WH page was electronically altered, it is a PDF file.

    The birth certificate PDF file is an image of an object. You cannot put the actual object online. The information on the object matches the information on the image of the object, as it also does the information in the State of Hawaii’s files. As someone stated earlier, what you are doing is tantamount to calling a photograph of a dollar bill an actual dollar bill. You are looking at an image of a document that exists, it is real, the information contained on the image and the object itself is verified by the State of Hawaii and that document and it’s information is prima facie evidence in a court proceeding.

  122. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: I was responding to a direct question so you are out of context.

    I don’t know what rules you play by, but around here we are not prohibited from commenting on other people’s questions. You are showing that you are too scared to answer. You are discussing a Birth Certificate and stated African is a natural description for Barack Obama, Sr based on the fact that he was from Kenya. I asked you a question, you refuse to answer and don’t explain why your statement is obviously a misnomer. Does your Birth Certificate state you are North American?

    I smell fear in your comment. Why not answer the question?

  123. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: “This is how slow you are on the uptake. The birth certificate isn’t “altered” it was verified by the issuing authority.”What I said was the BC shown on the WH page was electronically altered, it is a PDF file. How would any of us know what the originally constructed document shows unless we saw it first hand? We need to take it on faith from three people in Hawaii apparently, one of whom is dead. Did any of the people from Hawaii that verified it in person also verify by statement the document shown on the WH site was an exact copy?

    Alvin Onaka was the registrar who confirmed the birth certificate. Fuddy had little to do with that. Yeah Onaka verified it we’ve been through this. This is why you keep getting ridiculed.

    http://www.azcentral.com/12news/Obama-Verification.pdf

  124. The truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Alvin Onaka was the registrar who confirmed the birth certificate.Fuddy had little to do with that.Yeah Onaka verified it we’ve been through this.This is why you keep getting ridiculed.

    http://www.azcentral.com/12news/Obama-Verification.pdf

    Is this what you understand as the statement from Mr Onaka?

    “I verify that the information in the copy of the Certificate of Live Birth for Mr. Obama that you attached with your request matches the original record in our file”.

    Please notice, he did not state it “is an exact copy”, he stated the information matches. Since I do not have access to the original correspondence I am relying on the article for possible evidence, of course it may be fraudulent as many sites are.

    Read more: http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/freedom-press-not-free/2012/may/24/hawaii-state-registrar-onaka-birth-certificate-/#ixzz2vbLC6ACa
    Follow us: @wtcommunities on Twitter

  125. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: Why would it not say African when it states the father is from Kenya?

    It’s not that some unknown source stated he was African because he was from Kenya, it was the parents choice that the document stated he was African. Black Kenyans were in the habit of referring to themselves as Africans. Your statement that it’s normal because he was from Kenya only makes me wonder why your birth certificate doesn’t say North American? The Box we are referring to is Race of the Father. Does your Race say North American? Your explanation was faulty. Of course all of this is covered online. Why not refer to the past research? http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/07/the-african-race-the-final-chapter/

  126. The truth says:

    bgansel9: I don’t know what rules you play by, but around here we are not prohibited from commenting on other people’s questions. You are showing that you are too scared to answer. You are discussing a Birth Certificate and stated African is a natural description for Barack Obama, Sr based on the fact that he was from Kenya. I asked you a question, you refuse to answer and don’t explain why your statement is obviously a misnomer. Does your Birth Certificate state you are North American?

    I smell fear in your comment. Why not answer the question?

    “Spit it out.Just what are you trying to say?I hope you aren’t referring to the use of racial identifier “African” on the birth certificate!”

    This is the direct question I was answering.What am I refusing to answer? The question referenced a racial identifier, not where he was born? And no, North America is not listed on my birth certificate, however, Kenya Africa was shown for Obama’s father s info as well as African for his racial identifier. Have I answered your question? If not, I have no idea what the you are talking about.

  127. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: Have I answered your question? If not, I have no idea what the you are talking about.

    I have placed it above. Your explanation didn’t make any sense. The correct answer is that is how the parents wished the race to be described.

  128. American Mzungu says:

    The truth: Maybe it was a typo they wanted to make politically correct and they used bad judgment but someone should just admit it.

    So, if it’s not the racial identifier, what on the birth certificate are you referring to?

  129. The truth says:

    bgansel9: I have placed it above. Your explanation didn’t make any sense. The correct answer is that is how the parents wished the race to be described.

    If the parents wanted it that way I could care less. The point in my original question that led to this is whether or not the BC shown at the WH was altered from its original form ie signatures, date stamps etc.

  130. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: The point in my original question that led to this is whether or not the BC shown at the WH was altered from its original form ie signatures, date stamps etc.

    I already placed that above too.

  131. The truth says:

    American Mzungu: So, if it’s not the racial identifier, what on the birth certificate are you referring to?

    I think I see where you people are going, by politically correct I meant NOT AN OBVIOUS LIE. Something that would not make sense or would lead to investigating dates, signatures, names whatever. I don’t think in term of black vs white, I would hope in todays day and age everyone is way beyond the race BS. If you are trying to insinuate I am a racist it is you that still cant get past black and white.

  132. Bonsall Obot says:

    Mommy’s Special Snowflake said:
    I don’t think in term of black vs white,

    I bet some of his best friends are black!

  133. The truth says:

    Bonsall Obot: I bet some of his best friends are black!

    Snowflake? Is that to point out you assume my race as white? I do have black friends, none that treat me like you do, they are not racist. I hope you can some day rid your heart of bias based on the color of skin. From what I gather many people think anyone that does not believe Obama is a racist, nobody believed Bush either were they racist also?

  134. American Mzungu says:

    The truth: I think I see where you people are going, by politically correct I meant NOT AN OBVIOUS LIE. Something that would not make sense or would lead to investigating dates, signatures, names whatever. I don’t think in term of black vs white, I would hope in todays day and age everyone is way beyond the race BS. If you are trying to insinuate I am a racist it is you that still cant get past black and white.

    If there’s a gold coin in that bucket of mud, maybe someone else can find it.

  135. All of the information on Obama’s birth certificate is precisely what historical sources say it should be, without exception.

    Birthers have tried to fake history, by saying, for example, “no one would write African” but in fact according to a historical analysis, “African” is the MOST LIKELY entry to appear for the Father’s Race.

    Other things have been criticized, like the mother’s usual address, but the fact is that this is the same that was in the City Directory.

    The penciled codes have been lied about too.

    There is not a damned thing wrong with the information on Obama’s birth certificate.

    The truth: I think I see where you people are going, by politically correct I meant NOT AN OBVIOUS LIE. Something that would not make sense or would lead to investigating dates, signatures, names whatever.

  136. Bonsall Obot says:

    Mommy’s Special Snowflake said:
    The point in my original question that led to this is whether or not the BC shown at the WH was altered from its original form ie signatures, date stamps etc.

    The State of Hawaii verified YEARS AGO that the information on the PDF matches their records. This verification has been referred to literally dozens (perhaps hundreds) of times on this very website. That you refuse to believe this and instead CHOOSE to believe deliberate falsehoods about the PDF tells us that you’re not asking questions in good faith. And that, pumpkin, tells us you’re a troll.

  137. With a tiny bit of effort you could have located and read the full verification.

    http://www.azcentral.com/12news/Obama-Verification.pdf

    And with a little initiative, you could have found two more:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/106576604/2012-09-14-KS-SoS-Kobach-Letter-to-Onaka-and-Response

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/96200621/2012-06-06-MDEC-Motion-to-Supplement-Response-to-Motion-for-Sanctions-S-D-Miss

    The truth: Is this what you understand as the statement from Mr Onaka?

    “I verify that the information in the copy of the Certificate of Live Birth for Mr. Obama that you attached with your request matches the original record in our file”.

    Please notice, he did not state it “is an exact copy”, he stated the information matches. Since I do not have access to the original correspondence I am relying on the article for possible evidence, of course it may be fraudulent as many sites are.

  138. Bonsall Obot says:

    Mommy’s Special Snowflake said:

    “I verify that the information in the copy of the Certificate of Live Birth for Mr. Obama that you attached with your request matches the original record in our file”.

    Please notice, he did not state it “is an exact copy”, he stated the information matches.

    That’s it?? You’re relying on the Birfer meme about “exact copy??”

    That’s all you got?

    Look, pumpkin, just because the registrar didn’t use the Magic Words Birfers Demanded After the Fact doesn’t mean a damn thing; “matches the original record” is plenty good for the 99.9999% of the public who don’t have an irrational hatred of The President of the United States of America, duly elected TWICE by the American people. Of course, that hatred is DEFINITELY NOT BECAUSE HE’S BLACKITY-BLACK-BLACK, SO STOP SAYING THAT YOU GUYS.

    I guarantee, pumpkin, if the registrar HAD said “it is an exact copy,” you and your TOTALLY NOT-RACIST friends would be crapping your pants because he didn’t say “pluperfect identical replication.” Because those goalposts aren’t gonna move themselves.

    I renew my demand for better trolls. This one is exceptionally dim, even for a Birfer.

  139. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: I think I see where you people are going, by politically correct I meant NOT AN OBVIOUS LIE. Something that would not make sense or would lead to investigating dates, signatures, names whatever.

    It was nothing more than the parents preference. Why is that a problem for you?

  140. American Mzungu says:

    Bonsall Obot: I renew my demand for better trolls. This one is exceptionally dim, even for a Birfer.

    Maybe the high-quality trolls gave up posting on Doc C’s for Lent.

  141. Bonsall Obot says:

    American Mzungu: Maybe the high-quality trolls gave up posting on Doc C’s for Lent.

    “Irony can be pretty ironic, sometimes.”

    – Commander Buck Murdock

  142. Hilary Pete says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Read the article:
    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/born-kenya-obamas-literary-agent-misidentified-birthplace-1991/story?id=16372566
    I’ve read it,and don’t believe it. Just another example of covering up for him – he didn’t do it – he had no idea! Most writers write their own bios, and even if she did write it back then, did she just invent the idea of him being born in Kenya? How did she pick Kenya of all places unless someone told her so. And she never asked him to sign off on it before publishing it? Really? I also don’t believe that Obama never looked at his bio in the 16 years that it said “born in Kenya” even though it was updated several times until it was finally changed in 2007.

  143. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    Hilary Pete: I’ve read it,and don’t believe it. Just another example of covering up for him – he didn’t do it –

    As usual birthers don’t believe anything that doesn’t conform to their delusions. They didn’t have to cover up for him as this blurb was completely uncirculated and it’s why it took until 2012 for birthers to even find it. She probably made the assumption because his dad was from Kenya that he must have been too.

    You’re assuming he even knew about this “bio”. There’s no proof to support that. Tell me though what would be the purpose of him saying he was born in Kenya for an uncirculated bio that birthers didn’t find until 2012 meanwhile he told everyone else in his books that he was born in Hawaii in multiple interviews while he was in the public. During his appointment to the Harvard Law review

    http://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/06/us/first-black-elected-to-head-harvard-s-law-review.html

    Tell me Pete what is the net gain for him on that?

  144. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth:
    “This is how slow you are on the uptake. The birth certificate isn’t “altered” it was verified by the issuing authority.”

    What I said was the BC shown on the WH page was electronically altered, it is a PDF file. How would any of us know what the originally constructed document shows unless we saw it first hand? We need to take it on faith from three people in Hawaiiapparently, one of whom is dead. Did any of the people from Hawaii that verified it in person also verify by statement the document shown on the WH site was an exact copy?

    Once again the person who verified the document was Alvin Onaka. Loretta Fuddy really had little to do with it. Before her was Dr. Fukino who verified the document during the administration of Linda Lingle. Again I just showed you a verification with a statement talking about the document shown on the WH site. Did you bother reading what was linked?
    http://www.azcentral.com/12news/Obama-Verification.pdf

  145. Bonsall Obot says:

    But did they SUPER-EXACTLY DOUBLEPLUS verify it??

  146. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Please notice, he did not state it “is an exact copy”, he stated the information matches. Since I do not have access to the original correspondence I am relying on the article for possible evidence, of course it may be fraudulent as many sites are.

    Are you on drugs? I’m asking a serious question no way you could read that and take away the opposite of what is said.

    Since you keep needing someone to hold your hand here’s the dictionary information of words that seem to keep going over your head:
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/verify?s=t

    ver·i·fy
    verb (used with object), ver·i·fied, ver·i·fy·ing.
    1.
    to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony; confirm; substantiate: Events verified his prediction.
    2.
    to ascertain the truth or correctness of, as by examination, research, or comparison: to verify a spelling.
    3.
    to act as ultimate proof or evidence of; serve to confirm.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/matches?s=t
    match
    verb (used with object)
    9.
    to equal; be equal to: My talent does not match his.
    10.
    to be the match or counterpart of; harmonize with: The skirt matches the jacket perfectly.

    You never read Ken Bennetts letter and yet you want to expound your ignorance?

    If you did about 2 seconds of searching you could have found the email trails between Hawaii and Ken Bennett regarding this: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/emails-show-how-hawaii-stiffed-arizona-secretary-of-state-s-birther-investigation?ref=fpblg

  147. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: by politically correct I meant NOT AN OBVIOUS LIE

    So you’re saying you’re not being politically correct since you’ve told many obvious lies here.

  148. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    Here was the text of the ken bennett letter:
    “Hawaii Department of Health
    Office of Health Status Monitoring
    Vital Records Issuance Section
    P.O. Box 3378
    Honolulu, HI 96801

    Ladies and gentlemen:

    Enclosed please find a request for a verification in lieu of a certified copy for the birth record of Barack Hussein Obama II. In addition to the items to be verified in the attached form, please verify the following items from the record of birth:

    Department of Health File #151 61 10641
    Time of birth: 7:24 p.m.
    Name of hospital: Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital
    Age of father: 25
    Birthplace of Father: Kenya, East Africa
    Age of mother: 18
    Birthplace of mother: Wichita, Kansas
    Date of signature of parent: 8-7-1961
    Date of signature of attendant: 8-8-1961
    Date accepted by local registrar: August-8 1961

    Additionally, please verify that the attached copy of the Certificate of Live Birth for Mr. Obama is a true and accurate representation of the original record in your files.

    Thank you for your assistance in this matter.

    Sincerely,
    Ken Bennett
    Arizona Secretary of State”

  149. Hilary Pete says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: You’re assuming he even knew about this “bio”. There’s no proof to support that.

    Yes, I assume he knew about it. I assume he wrote it as most authors do. It was on the Dystel website until 2007 which makes is fairly well circulated, It was also updated several times in those 16 years – “born in Kenya” never changed until late 2007. And he never saw it or approved any of those changes? What did he gain? You got me – book sales maybe? The point is, for many years it was publicly stated that he was “born in Kenya”. Yes, he also said he was born in Hawaii when it suited him.

  150. Hilary Pete: If anyone can reproduce this “X” with a pen, I will give up believing this is a fake birth certificate.

    Quote heard from my home office, where my wife is working on the final edits for her dissertation (PhD in Anthropology): “I hate this red ink! It dries too slowly!”

    I saunter in: “Is the ink smearing?”

    My wife, in deep frustration: “Just look at it! Red streaks and now my hands are all red!”

    On the paper are streaks that look just like the streaks HP was baffled by on the LFBC.

    Ah, synchronicity. Not just one of my wife’s favourite Police albums.

  151. Hilary Pete says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Additionally, please verify that the attached copy of the Certificate of Live Birth for Mr. Obama is a true and accurate representation of the original record in your files.

    And note – Alvin did not verify that it was a “true and accurate representation” – He hedged on that…it “matches the original records” – that doesn’t mean the same thing.
    “I verify that the information in the copy of the Certificate of Live Birth for Mr. Obama that you attached with your request matches the original record in our file”
    And what did Chiyomi Fukina see that she described as “half typewritten and half handwritten and properly signed”? Certainly not the PDF we see.

  152. CarlOrcas says:

    Hilary Pete: I assume he wrote it as most authors do.

    How do you know what “most authors do”? What percentage write their own?

    Hilary Pete: It was on the Dystel website until 2007 which makes is fairly well circulated….

    Every reference I see says it was a “booklet”. Specifically Breitbart says: “The booklet, which was distributed to “business colleagues” in the publishing industry, includes a brief biography of Obama among the biographies of eighty-nine other authors represented by Acton & Dystel.”

    And, yes, it was apparently on the agent’s website on April 3, 2007. Do you know when it was placed there? You claim it was “fairly well circulated”. How many people visited the page while the bio was there? How do you define “well circulated”? How many unique visitors visited the site before it was changed? You do know….don’t you???

    BTW…..Breitbart.com says he was changed 18 days later.

  153. Hilary Pete says:

    W. Kevin Vicklund: On the paper are streaks that look just like the streaks HP was baffled by on the LFBC.

    I’m not baffled by the streaks. I asked if anyone could make that “X” with a pen as Dr. Sinclair supposedly did if the document were real?

  154. CarlOrcas says:

    Hilary Pete: And note – Alvin did not verify that it was a “true and accurate representation” – He hedged on that…it “matches the original records” – that doesn’t mean the same thing.

    What does it mean?

  155. CarlOrcas says:

    Hilary Pete: I’m not baffled by the streaks. I asked if anyone could make that “X” with a pen as Dr. Sinclair supposedly did if the document were real?

    A couple of questions vis a vis the Big X:

    1 – In the big scheme of things what difference would it make if it was added or enhanced later?

    2 – Why would the White House (that is who you think did it, right?) do it?

  156. Hilary Pete says:

    CarlOrcas: And, yes, it was apparently on the agent’s website on April 3, 2007. Do you know when it was placed there? You claim it was “fairly well circulated”. How many people visited the page while the bio was there? How do you define “well circulated”? How many unique visitors visited the site before it was changed? You do know….don’t you???

    Well, here’s the link that show it was there in 1998 – so I guess it was there for quite a while. It is the agents primary website, so it was clearly a public document for anyone to see. No, I don’t know what their web traffic is. It was a booklet in 1991, but apparently also went on their website just a few years later – and is still there today. Except it says born in Hawaii since mid 2007.
    https://web.archive.org/web/19980627122741/http://www.dystel.com/client.html#O You can tell it’s 1998 by the browser title 19980627 – June 27, 1998

  157. Majority Will says:

    Hilary Pete: And note – Alvin did not verify that it was a “true and accurate representation” – He hedged on that…it “matches the original records” – that doesn’t mean the same thing.

    That’s really stupid.

  158. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    Hilary Pete: Yes, I assume he knew about it. I assume he wrote it as most authors do. It was on the Dystel website until 2007 which makes is fairly well circulated, It was also updated several times in those 16 years

    Being on a website doesn’t mean it was circulated. Just look how long it took birthers to find it. How many hits do you think it got during that time period? Again you didn’t answer my question. For what purpose would he claim he was born in Kenya for some uncirculated “bio” while telling everyone else he was born in Hawaii for longer?

    Book sales for an unpublished book? Meanwhile his real bio on the inside of his actual books say he was born in Hawaii. So again you haven’t addressed any real motive.

    Now you’re hedging originally you claimed he said he was born in Kenya. There is no proof to support that he publicly said that. Meanwhile he has consistently said he was born in Hawaii. There is no “he also said” he’s only said Hawaii.

  159. BillTheCat says:

    The truth: Is this what you understand as the statement from Mr Onaka?

    “I verify that the information in the copy of the Certificate of Live Birth for Mr. Obama that you attached with your request matches the original record in our file”.

    Please notice, he did not state it “is an exact copy”, he stated the information matches.

    lol, aha, the old “exact copy” angle, comedy gold. 🙂

  160. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    Hilary Pete: And note – Alvin did not verify that it was a “true and accurate representation” – He hedged on that…it “matches the original records” – that doesn’t mean the same thing.

    You really are this dumb? This is why birthers continue to be ridiculed. What don’t you get about the meaning of the words verify and match? I already posted the dictionary definition obviously the english language baffles you.

  161. Hilary Pete says:

    CarlOrcas: 1 – In the big scheme of things what difference would it make if it was added or enhanced later?

    It would matter because we were told that the PDF was a “true copy of the record on file”. If was added or enhanced later, it’s not a true copy, and therefore not legal.
    I think that whatever Hawaii has isn’t what they wanted to present. I don’t know why. There are several small elements that are clearly computer generated, and this is one of them. If you want to see a couple of them they’re here:
    http://www.accidentalpartriot4.wordpress.com

  162. Suranis says:

    Of course I can. Down at a approx 120 degree angle, across at a approx 280 degree angle, and up at an approx 30 degree angle. 3 strokes, not lifting the pen from the page. Simple and fast for a busy doctor that’s been doing the same x’s for years and is probably concentrating on consulting with a nurse while he is filling out the paperwork.

    The rest is simply ink streaks from paper rubbing off drying ink.

    I’m sorry but your stupid theory is stupid, both because it does NOT prove that there wasn’t a paper document as people can easily draw on graphical images, and because there is a very simple explanation for the X and smudging that shows its an effect that’s common in paper documents and is consistent with a busy doctor in a hospital.

    But hey, at least you are not Polarik. Or maybe you are, you seem to know as little about actual graphics and ink as he does.

    Hilary Pete: I’m not baffled by the streaks. I asked if anyone could make that “X” with a pen as Dr. Sinclair supposedly did if the document were real?

  163. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    Hilary Pete: I think that whatever Hawaii has isn’t what they wanted to present. I don’t know why. There are several small elements that are clearly computer generated, and this is one of them. If you want to see a couple of them they’re here

    So you’re saying Hawaii is in on the conspiracy as well? For what purpose hillarious pete? The content of the document matches the original. You can’t get around that.

  164. Hilary Pete says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: What don’t you get about the meaning of the words verify and match?

    He wasn’t asked to verify it. He was asked if it was a “true and accurate representation” He didn’t say it was an “accurate representation” only that the information matched. That isn’t the same thing.

  165. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    Hilary Pete: He wasn’t asked to verify it. He was asked if it was a “true and accurate representation”He didn’t say it was an “accurate representation” only that the information matched. That isn’t the same thing.

    Yeah he was asked to verify it did you not read the text of the letter I posted above regarding Ken Bennett’s original request to Onaka. He was asked to verify it and he stated the content matches the original. What part of the english language don’t you understand? For Onaka not being asked to verify Bennett sure used forms of verify quite a bit in his letter. You birthers are funny.

  166. BillTheCat says:

    Hilary Pete: It would matter because we were told that the PDF was a “true copy of the record on file”. If was added or enhanced later, it’s not a true copy, and therefore not legal.
    I think that whatever Hawaii has isn’t what they wanted to present. I don’t know why. There are several small elements that are clearly computer generated, and this is one of them. If you want to see a couple of them they’re here:
    http://www.accidentalpartriot4.wordpress.com

    First article on the site – Butternut’s despicable theory about Fuddy’s death.

    Stopped reading there.

  167. Majority Will says:

    Hilary Pete: He wasn’t asked to verify it. He was asked if it was a “true and accurate representation”He didn’t say it was an “accurate representation” only that the information matched. That isn’t the same thing.

    That’s incredibly moronic and asinine.

  168. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    BillTheCat: First article on the site – Butternut’s despicable theory about Fuddy’s death.

    Stopped reading there.

    I’m sure he also believes nutterbutter’s theory on how a verification isn’t a verification.

  169. CarlOrcas says:

    Hilary Pete: Well, here’s the link that show it was there in 1998 – so I guess it was there for quite a while. It is the agents primary website, so it was clearly a public document for anyone to see. No, I don’t know what their web traffic is.

    In other words….other than you wishful thinking you have no idea how many people saw the information on the internet or off.

    And, of course, there are all the other mentions and sources that tell us he was born in Hawaii…..but you don’t like any of them, right?

  170. Hilary Pete says:

    Suranis: Simple and fast for a busy doctor that’s been doing the same x’s for years and is probably concentrating on consulting with a nurse while he is filling out the paperwork.

    The cross bar will not be on the bottom, it will be on the side. We all learned cursive in school. Dr. Sinclair obviously did. We make our “X’ from top to bottom, and the connection from not lifting the pen will be on the side. Just try it, please. And yes, people can draw on graphical images. But we are told that Dr Sinclair did this with a pen in 1961. I’m saying he didn’t. I’m saying he couldn’t.

  171. gorefan says:

    Hilary Pete: Most writers write their own bios, and even if she did write it back then, did she just invent the idea of him being born in Kenya? How did she pick Kenya of all places unless someone told her so. And she never asked him to sign off on it before publishing it? Really?

    IMO, he wrote a bio and it was then edited by the literary agent for style or length. In editing it, she conflated Barack Hussein Obama (born in Kenya) with Barack Hussein Obama II (born in Hawaii).

    As to why it wasn’t corrected, I see several possibilities:

    1) Since all the original info came from him and all they did was edit it to match their style and/or for length, the agent didn’t feel the need to have him review.

    2) They sent him the edited bio to review, he sent them a correction and they screwed up and didn’t make the change.

    3) They sent him the edited bio to review, he laughed at the error and then just shined it on.

    4) They sent him the edited bio to review, he thought maybe he would sell more books if publishers thought he was from Kenya.

    That last one seems improbable to me as it doesn’t appear that being from Kenya would be that helpful.

  172. Hilary Pete says:

    Hilary Pete: If you want to see a couple of them they’re here:
    http://www.accidentalpartriot4.wordpress.com

    My fault – typing too fast – here’s a copy paste.
    http://accidentalpatriot4.wordpress.com/2014/02/01/two-many-coincidences-obama-birth-certificate-fraud/

  173. Majority Will says:

    From: Political Wire
    May 17, 2012

    Literary Agent Says 1991 Booklet was a Mistake

    Breitbart News reports on a promotional booklet produced in 1991 by Barack Obama’s then-literary agency which describes the author as “born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii.”

    Miriam Goderich issued the following statement to Political Wire:

    “You’re undoubtedly aware of the brouhaha stirred up by Breitbart about the erroneous statement in a client list Acton & Dystel published in 1991 (for circulation within the publishing industry only) that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. This was nothing more than a fact checking error by me — an agency assistant at the time. There was never any information given to us by Obama in any of his correspondence or other communications suggesting in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii. I hope you can communicate to your readers that this was a simple mistake and nothing more.

    Full disclosure: I am a client of the same literary agency.

    (emphasis added for the birther trolls with severe reading comprehension issues)

    http://politicalwire.com/archives/2012/05/17/literary_agent_says_1991_booklet_was_a_mistake.html

  174. CarlOrcas says:

    Hilary Pete: It would matter because we were told that the PDF was a “true copy of the record on file”.

    Who said that? Looking at the Onaka letter to Ken Bennett I see different wording:

    Hilary Pete: I think that whatever Hawaii has isn’t what they wanted to present. I don’t know why.

    To be as obsessed as you are with the Big X in the M.D. box you must have something in mind. What is it?

  175. Majority Will says:

    Hilary Pete: My fault – typing too fast – here’s a copy paste.
    http://accidentalpatriot4.wordpress.com/2014/02/01/two-many-coincidences-obama-birth-certificate-fraud/

    Sometimes where there is smoke, there is a smoke machine.

    You and a few other birthers with an obvious agenda are smoke machines.

  176. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    Majority Will: Full disclosure: I am a client of the same literary agency.

    (emphasis added for the birther trolls with severe reading comprehension issues)

    He’s already stated he doesn’t believe it because… ummm who knows

  177. Hilary Pete says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: He was asked to verify it and he stated the content matches the original. What part of the english language don’t you understand?

    Yes, he was asked to verify that it was a “true and accurate representation”.He did not verify that – a representation is the appearance of something – how is presented or shown. That is different than the information included in that representation. The information matches, the representation does not is how I read it.

  178. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    Hilary Pete: Yes, he was asked to verify that it was a “true and accurate representation”.He did not verify that

    Yes he did verify that. The english language seems to allude you. What don’t you get about the words Verify and match when it references the PDF matching the original in the vault?

    So tell me kiddo how does the information contained on the PDF differ from that on the original?

  179. Hilary Pete: It would matter because we were told that the PDF was a “true copy of the record on file”.

    No, we weren’t. The PDF is a copy of a true copy, but it is not itself a true copy, because it copied the certification and safety features, which are not present on the record on file. “True” has a very specific meaning in legal documents.

    By law, it is impossible for a copy of a certified copy to be a true copy.

  180. Majority Will says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: He’s already stated he doesn’t believe it because… ummm who knows

    You and I have seen it too many times.

    The goal of a birther jackass is to be a birther jackass.

    Hey, that matches.

  181. CarlOrcas says:

    Hilary Pete: The cross bar will not be on the bottom, it will be on the side. We all learned cursive in school. Dr. Sinclair obviously did. We make our “X’ from top to bottom, and the connection from not lifting the pen will be on the side. Just try it, please. And yes, people can draw on graphical images. But we are told that Dr Sinclair did this with a pen in 1961. I’m saying he didn’t. I’m saying he couldn’t.

    Wow! That is an amazing bit of nonsense. Sorry but it is.

    You’ve never had a pen or piece of paper slip? You never signed something quickly? You’ve never written the wrong thing in the wrong place and scribbled over it? The possibilities are endless in the real world but in your mind the only possible explanation is that someone changed it to cover up something that you can’t explain.

    Amazing!

  182. American Mzungu says:

    Hilary, if you believe in the “born in Kenya” meme, I’m sure you have a scenario worked out about why SAD would have traveled there to give birth, who paid for the trip, where this birth took place, how Mother got baby back, etc. All the logistic stuff. Doc has done extensive writing on this topic, so please read all his stuff and show where he is wrong if you are not persuaded by his analysis. I’d be interested in any documents or other evidence you can bring forward in support of your theory.

  183. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    American Mzungu:
    Hilary, if you believe in the “born in Kenya” meme, I’m sure you have a scenario worked out about why SAD would have traveled there to give birth, who paid for the trip, where this birth took place, how Mother got baby back, etc.All the logistic stuff.Doc has done extensive writing on this topic, so please read all his stuff and show where he is wrong if you are not persuaded by his analysis.I’d be interested in any documents or other evidence you can bring forward in support of your theory.

    We should of course throw in the question if he believes that Barack Obama Sr, was Obama’s father first.

  184. Hilary Pete says:

    W. Kevin Vicklund: No, we weren’t. The PDF is a copy of a true copy, but it is not itself a true copy,

    I’m just quoting the registrars stamp that you all say proves that we should accept the PDF as gospel with no more questions asked.

  185. Suranis says:

    And I say he could have.

    Considering that you flatly stated that the whole reason for your “it was constructed out of chapped up 2s” theory was that “it was impossible for someone to just draw an X on the page as there wasn’t a paper copy!!!”, I think what you say isn’t worth much as you obviously don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

    Hilary Pete: The cross bar will not be on the bottom, it will be on the side. We all learned cursive in school. Dr. Sinclair obviously did. We make our “X’ from top to bottom, and the connection from not lifting the pen will be on the side. Just try it, please. And yes, people can draw on graphical images. But we are told that Dr Sinclair did this with a pen in 1961. I’m saying he didn’t. I’m saying he couldn’t.

  186. sfjeff says:

    The truth: What I said was the BC shown on the WH page was electronically altered, it is a PDF file. How would any of us know what the originally constructed document shows unless we saw it first hand? We need to take it on faith from three people in Hawaii apparently, one of whom is dead. Did any of the people from Hawaii that verified it in person also verify by statement the document shown on the WH site was an exact copy

    Seriously- do you expect the State of Hawaii to go door to door with Obama’s original birth certificate?

    Or perhaps you think that the President should order- and pay for 300,000,000 certified copies of his birth certificate to be delivered to every American?

    In the real world, we publish things online for mass distribution.

    If you can’t accept that- well frankly- how do you know the Constitution is real?

    Or anything else.

  187. Sherrif Joe CCP says:

    This is why Normal, sane people laugh at Birthers. From the World English Dictionary. EXACT COPY = MATCH = EQUAL. It cannot be clearer, unless you don’t want to acknowledge 2+2 =4.

    match 1 (mætʃ)

    4. a person or thing that is an exact copy or equal of another

  188. Suranis says:

    I worked out once that if Obama did what Borthers wanted and sent his paper birth certificate to each town and city in the US, assuming a generous 12 hour stay in each town and star trek transporters to instantly beam the viewing booth into the next town, it would take 56 years and 3 months for Obama to be birther vetted.

    And they would still call it a fake.

  189. Hilary Pete says:

    Sherrif Joe CCP: a person or thing that is an exact copy or equal of another

    Agreed – what he said was that the information matched. That is not the same as the visual item – the representations matching – I understand this to mean that they visibly do not match – just the information is a match. I can’t be any clearer either.

  190. American Mzungu says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: We should of course throw in the question if he believes that Barack Obama Sr, was Obama’s father first.

    I amend my comment to incorporate your suggestion.

  191. sfjeff says:

    Hilary Pete: I’ve read it,and don’t believe it. Just another example of covering up for him – he didn’t do it – he had no idea! Most writers write their own bios, and even if she did write it back then, did she just invent the idea of him being born in Kenya? How did she pick Kenya of all places unless someone told her so. And she never asked him to sign off on it before publishing it? Really? I also don’t believe that Obama never looked at his bio in the 16 years that it said “born in Kenya” even though it was updated several times until it was finally changed in 2007.

    What you believe is rather immaterial.

    But I will point out the obvious- there was a Barack Obama who was born in Kenya.

    How could the mistake have been made? The writer could have mixed up details about Barack Obama Sr. with Barack Obama Jr.

    That seems far likely to me than anything else I have heard.

    Think this through.

    In 1990, in various major publications, Barack Obama is interviewed and his place of birth is announced as Hawaii.

    In 1995 he publishes his book announcing he was born in Hawaii.

    in 1992 an obscure brochure targeted for publishing industry says he was born in Kenya.

    What possible plot can you come up with that would have Obama telling millions in 1990 and 1995 that he was born in Hawaii, but secretly telling the world he was born in Kenya in 1992?

  192. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    Hilary Pete: Agreed – what he said was that the information matched. That is not the same as the visual item – the representations matching – I understand this to mean that they visibly do not match – just the information is a match. I can’t be any clearer either.

    You really are trying to weasel your way out of admitting reality that the verification verified that the content matched the original…

    So if the information is what is needed to verify he’s eligible what case do you have?

  193. dunstvangeet says:

    The truth:

    Let’s see.

    In March of 2008, there were rumors starting that Obama was born in Kenya, and was not an Natural Born Citizen. Obama released his “official Hawaii State Birth Certificate” (words of Hawaii DoH Spokesman Janice Okubo). He scanned it in so that anybody could see it. He sent a digital file to several news organizations, and also displayed it on his campaign website. He further allowed news organizations to come, photograph, and handle the birth certificate.

    Birthers said that it wasn’t a real birth certificate. So, spokesmen from the Hawaii Department of Health stated directly that it was a “valid Hawaii State Birth Certificate” and several news organizations compared it to other birth certificates that were given to them by the Hawaii Department of Health. All of them matched.

    Birthers still said it wasn’t a real birth certificate, that it didn’t matter anyways, and then demanded more records.

    Then in April of 2011, Obama released his long-form. He got special permission from the Director of the Hawaii Department of Health to obtain it, got it officially certified. Took it out in front of the White House Press Corps, gave everybody their own photocopy of it, and even let the White House Press Corps touch it as well. He also released it to the general public by scanning it in and putting it on the White House Website.

    Birthers said that it was a fake, that it didn’t matter anyway, and then demanded more records.

    Obama has bent over backwards to accommodate the kooks in the birther movement. Why should he release any more records, when the very document he released the first time would be enough to prove his place of birth to any court in the land?

    And before you state that “it’s a digital file, and therefore not a real birth certificate,” please inform me of the manor that you would propose that Obama release the documents? He’s released it to the general public in the form of a scan and publishing it on his website. He’s released it to the press, letting members of the press come, touch the seal, photograph it, and display their pictures. The only thing that he could do further than that is mail every man, woman, and child in America their own personal copy, officially certified by the Hawaii Department of Health. That would only cost somewhere around $1 billion (not including postage). Remember, that Obama’s entire 2008 campaign didn’t raise $1 billion, despite it being the most expensive campaign in history. So, tell me, how does Obama prove to you that he was born in the United States? He’s done more than what every other presidential candidate has done.

  194. sfjeff says:

    I go back to 2009, when the Hawaiian Director of Health verified that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii and is therefore a natural born citizen.

    It doesn’t matter whether the PDF is layered or not.

    Hawaii says that they have the BC.
    Hawaii says that the BC says Obama was born in Hawaii.
    Barack Obama is the only President ever to show his BC to America.
    Barack Obama is the only President Birthers have ever demanded proof of eligiblity
    Barack Obama is the only President Birthers refuse to believe any proof provided.

    Nothing we can say or do can help you. Your denial is not rational.

    I believe treatment is the only option, but as your condition probably is not harmful anyone, probably not required.

  195. gorefan says:

    Hilary Pete: I understand this to mean that they visibly do not match

    They do not visually match, the PDF has a white border around the edge that was produced by the scanner and cuts off the green background. The certified copy has green background all the way to the edges.

  196. bgansel9 says:

    Hilary Pete: Agreed – what he said was that the information matched.

    So you admit the information matches?

  197. CarlOrcas says:

    Hilary Pete: I’m just quoting the registrars stamp that you all say proves that we should accept the PDF as gospel with no more questions asked.

    So, Hilary, let’s cut to the chase:

    What do you believe about Barack Obama?

    – Is that his real name?
    – Is he a natural born citizen?
    – Is he the lawful President of the United States?

    No not, why not?

    If yes…..what’s your point with all the rest of this stuff?

  198. bgansel9 says:

    Hilary Pete: It would matter because we were told that the PDF was a “true copy of the record on file”. If was added or enhanced later, it’s not a true copy, and therefore not legal.

    So long as the information matches, it IS legal. You are objecting to changes in paper which are cleared by Hawaii law, and artifacts left on electronic documents by equipment. Nothing changes the information on the documents.

  199. RanTalbott says:

    The truth: I have not insulted anyone here

    The hell you haven’t: you’ve insulted everyone here with your childish game of “Gotcha!”, acting like you’d come up with questions no one here had thought of, with your insinuations, and with your demeaning generalizations.

    Are you merely pretending to be too stupid to realize that (thus adding yet another insult)? Or is really not an act?

  200. RanTalbott says:

    Hilary Pete: It would matter because we were told that the PDF was a “true copy of the record on file”

    Not by anyone official, you weren’t. And the blatherings of idiot birfers who have reached a state of alleged adulthood without grasping the difference between “a document” and “A PICTURE OF a document” are meaningful only in the sense that they serve as a warning to not send them out to pick up dinner, lest you wind up eating a copy of Gourmet magazine.

  201. JPotter says:

    Hilary Pete: just the information is a match

    ‘just’ the information? You say that so lightly. You do understand that it is literally physically impossible to make a perfect copy of anything, right? And that if it were possible, it would be highly undesirable, as originals of everything would be threatened by the possibility of ‘perfect’ fakes.

    The information, with accompanying certification, is the only thing, visual appearance be damned. The point of a certified copy is that the certifying entity is certifying that the copy reflects the information that they have on file. See how that word ‘certify’ works? Notice that it is also the root of the word ‘certification’? Sheesh.

    Thus, the COLB is legally every bit as good as the LFBC. If state and federal regulations were amended to cover any other form of copy of a vital record, like, say, crayons on construction paper, well, then it’d be a Crayola birthday for everyone!
    ___________

    Hey, how ya doing on fitting all the copy machines and what-not in your car? I expect to see your X-rated Challenge Road Show rolling in style someday soon!

  202. RanTalbott says:

    Hilary Pete: If one thing is fraudulent, it’s all fraudulent.

    Your claim that you can determine anything meaningful with microscopic analysis of a PDF that was created with a high level of lossy compression is fraudulent.

    Your claim that a paraphrase, written by a newspaper reporter, is an actual quote from Fukino, is fraudulent.

    Your claim that you found “Four (4) versions of the Obama Long Form Birth Certificate that the White House has provided to the public to prove that the President was born in Hawaii”, when what you actually found were 4 different images of the same document, produced by different methods, is fraudulent.

    Ergo, by your own “standard”, your entire argument is fraudulent.

  203. I solved that problem:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2008/12/obama-announces-national-natural-born-day/

    Suranis: I worked out once that if Obama did what Borthers wanted and sent his paper birth certificate to each town and city in the US, assuming a generous 12 hour stay in each town and star trek transporters to instantly beam the viewing booth into the next town, it would take 56 years and 3 months for Obama to be birther vetted.

  204. Hilary Pete: The cross bar will not be on the bottom, it will be on the side. We all learned cursive in school. Dr. Sinclair obviously did. We make our “X’ from top to bottom, and the connection from not lifting the pen will be on the side.

    So your argument isn’t that there are streaks coming off it, as if wet ink had been smeared, but rather that nobody, in the history of ever, marked a checkbox with an “x” joined at the bottom? And that somehow this relates to the way a cursive “x” is made, which is nothing like what you describe?

    Now that’s a special brand of stupid.

  205. RanTalbott says:

    The truth: What I said was the BC shown on the WH page was electronically altered

    Read this as many times as it takes to sink in:

    THERE IS NO “BIRTH CERTIFICATE” ON THE WHITEHOUSE WEBSITE.

    THERE IS NO “COPY OF A BIRTH CERTIFICATE” ON THE WHITEHOUSE WEBSITE.

    Got it? Read it a couple more times, just to make sure.

    What is on the website is a PICTURE of a certified copy of a birth certificate, the equivalent of a vacation snapshot, intended to give the curious a general idea of what the actual document looks like.

    It is NOT “an official document”. It cannot, by definition, be a “forgery”. It cannot be officially authenticated, or certified.

    The fact that birfoons have failed to grasp these simple facts, despite _years_ of repeated explanations, it the reason that sane people consider you a pathetic joke, and a national embarrassment.

  206. Hilary Pete: Agreed – what he said was that the information matched. That is not the same as the visual item – the representations matching – I understand this to mean that they visibly do not match – just the information is a match. I can’t be any clearer either.

    Yes, I know of several differences between the PDF and the original record on file:

    1) the original is not printed on green safety paper
    2) the original does not have an HDoH seal
    3) the original does not have a 2011 date stamp
    4) the original does not have a certification
    5) the original does not have Alvin Onaka’s signature

  207. IIRC, the PDF is smaller.

    W. Kevin Vicklund: Yes, I know of several differences between the PDF and the original record on file:

  208. Dr. Conspiracy: IIRC, the PDF is smaller.

    Yes, indeed, I believe that I calculated it as (h/t Dougie Vogt)

    6) the original is approximately 14% larger (or conversely, the copy on the LFBC is 12% smaller than the original)

    Note that these are all additions or cosmetic changes that do not affect the information contained within the original record.

  209. RanTalbott says:

    Hilary Pete: I understand this to mean that they visibly do not match

    Of course you understand that: you’re a conspiracy nut.

    What it means in the real world is that vital statistics offices don’t operate document forensics labs, and they’re not going to rent an electron microscope, and spend hours or days of computer time, to verify that no one steganographically hid “Gotcha, you fakers! This is NOT a true and accurate copy!” somewhere in the copy they’re being asked to certify.

    They only certify copies that they, themselves, produced.

  210. RanTalbott says:

    bgansel9: So long as the information matches, it IS legal

    Mmmm, no: one of the few things Zullo got right is that the PDF is not a legal document. Of course, he then screwed that up by claiming that it is, and that it was a “felony” (exactly which felony, deponent saith not) to fabricate it (exactly how, deponent also saith not).

  211. John Reilly says:

    RanTalbott: Read this as many times as it takes to sink in:

    THERE IS NO “BIRTH CERTIFICATE” ON THE WHITEHOUSE WEBSITE.

    THERE IS NO “COPY OF A BIRTH CERTIFICATE” ON THE WHITEHOUSE WEBSITE.

    Got it? Read it a couple more times, just to make sure.

    What is on the website is a PICTURE of a certified copy of a birth certificate, the equivalent of a vacation snapshot, intended to give the curious a general idea of what the actual document looks like.

    It is NOT “an official document”. It cannot, by definition, be a “forgery”. It cannot be officially authenticated, or certified.

    The fact that birfoons have failed to grasp these simple facts, despite _years_ of repeated explanations, it the reason that sane people consider you a pathetic joke, and a national embarrassment.

    Ran, I disagree. Unlike any other PDF of a birth certificate, the State of Hawaii expressly refers visitors to its web site to the White House birth certificate. While that reference may not satisfy the lawyers or courts who have not yet adapted to the internet age, that reference is, for all practical purposes, a certification.

    No matter what anyone thinks of Dr. Sinclair’s penmanship.

    http://health.hawaii.gov/vitalrecords/faq-obama/

    Which gets us to the assertion by “The Truth” that what the White House is altered. The State of Hawaii says that is simply not so. It is not altered. Our “friend” “The Truth” is mistaken.

  212. American Mzungu says:

    Hilary Pete: I’ve read it,and don’t believe it. Just another example of covering up for him – he didn’t do it – he had no idea! Most writers write their own bios, and even if she did write it back then, did she just invent the idea of him being born in Kenya? How did she pick Kenya of all places unless someone told her so. And she never asked him to sign off on it before publishing it? Really? I also don’t believe that Obama never looked at his bio in the 16 years that it said “born in Kenya” even though it was updated several times until it was finally changed in 2007.

    If you believe the “born in Kenya” version of Obama’s (Jr.) biography, I’d like you to give us a plausible scenario how all that took place. If Obama (Sr.) was the father, did he take his wife to Kenya? For what purpose? Who paid for the trip? Where did she/he stay? How long? Who did they see there? In what location did the birth take place? What documentation did she/he/they obtain for the baby for travel back to the U.S. How did they get the birth included in the newspaper listing of Hawaiian births? How did they get the birth registered in Hawaii? You know, the logistics of life.

    This has been covered extensively on this site by Doc C. Please read his analyses. If you disagree, please specify exactly why.

    Please provide any supporting documents for the “born in Kenya” scenario. Please compare them with the documents available for the “born in Hawaii” scenario and provide an evaluation of the comparative merits of each.

  213. The Magic M says:

    Hilary Pete: I understand this to mean that they visibly do not match – just the information is a match

    That’s again Catch-22. Had Hawaii certified that they “visibly” match (in what words ever), birthers would have “concluded” that Hawaii only has a PDF or other digital file in their records (“they said they are IDENTICAL to the PDF, so they admitted they have no paper record!”).

    It’s the kind of game I refuse to play in discussions.

  214. Suranis says:

    I’m sure he read the bio that was printed on the back of his book “Dreams from my Father.” Sadly, for you, that bio said that he was born in Hawaii. If it didn’t say that. birthers would have been all over ever copy of the book they could grab in a library screaming about it.

    There would be no reason for him to read or even know about an internal leaflet that was sent around to publishers. Which also had errors about other authors, for example a serious error about the length of time Tip O’Niell was in the house. You think O’Niell got that wrong “when he wrote his own bio”?

    Gimme a break.

    Hilary Pete: I’ve read it,and don’t believe it. Just another example of covering up for him – he didn’t do it – he had no idea! Most writers write their own bios, and even if she did write it back then, did she just invent the idea of him being born in Kenya? How did she pick Kenya of all places unless someone told her so. And she never asked him to sign off on it before publishing it? Really? I also don’t believe that Obama never looked at his bio in the 16 years that it said “born in Kenya” even though it was updated several times until it was finally changed in 2007.

  215. Bonsall Obot says:

    Indeed, they would have resorted to this linguistic game of parsing every word for hidden meaning, regardless of what the State of Hawaii had said. It’s very telling that no linguist or lawyer has contended in any filing anywhere that “matches our records” is an insufficient phrasing; even incompetent Birfer lawyers know that wouldn’t hold water with any judge in the country.

  216. Keith says:

    Hilary Pete: He wasn’t asked to verify it. He was asked if it was a “true and accurate representation”He didn’t say it was an “accurate representation” only that the information matched. That isn’t the same thing.

    The ONLY thing he is legally authorized to do is verify that the INFORMATION matches.

    He did that. The INFORMATION matches.

    Nothing else matters. Artifacts introduced by photocopying or scanning or dog slobber do not matter.

    INFORMATION matters. Period.

  217. Keith says:

    Hilary Pete: The cross bar will not be on the bottom, it will be on the side. We all learned cursive in school. Dr. Sinclair obviously did. We make our “X’ from top to bottom, and the connection from not lifting the pen will be on the side. Just try it, please. And yes, people can draw on graphical images. But we are told that Dr Sinclair did this with a pen in 1961. I’m saying he didn’t. I’m saying he couldn’t.

    Utter rot. How can you possibly have the audacity to know how everyone on the planet draws the letter ‘X’?

    Lots of people waste hours and hours of their kid time trying to do things a bit different from other kids. I can write my initials, three different letters, with three verticals, two horizontals and two angles without lifting the pen from the paper, and those initials are more readable than my normal signature.

    People who know shorthand write lots of letters in different directions than folks who don’t.

    Your hubris is breathtaking.

  218. Keith says:

    Hilary Pete: Yes, he was asked to verify that it was a “true and accurate representation”.He did not verify that – a representation is the appearance ofsomething – how is presented or shown. That is different than the information included in that representation. The information matches, the representation does not is how I read it.

    So… what is your problem? The information matches. Nothing else matters.

  219. Keith says:

    Hilary Pete: I’m just quoting the registrars stamp that you all say proves that we should accept the PDF as gospel with no more questions asked.

    The registrars stamp is on the “true copy”. The PDF contains an image of that registrars stamp. The PDF is not the “true copy”; the PDF is a computer file; the PDF is an accurate image of the “true copy”.

    We’ve all gone around this circle so many times. THAT is why you are a troll and earn no respect here. Your childish attempt at playing with the English language about something that is totally meaningless is pathetic and boring.

  220. Keith says:

    Suranis: ngth of time Tip O’Niell was in the house. You think O’Niell got that wrong “when he wrote his own bio”?

    Actually, I wouldn’t put it past him.

  221. Suranis says:

    Damn, you would pick on the flaw in my argument. 😀

    Keith: Actually, I wouldn’t put it past him.

  222. The Truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Are you on drugs?I’m asking a serious question no way you could read that and take away the opposite of what is said.

    Actually, no, I am not on drugs, however, Obama has admitted to using them which by the way is illegal.

  223. The Truth says:

    Bonsall Obot:
    Indeed, they would have resorted to this linguistic game of parsing every word for hidden meaning, regardless of what the State of Hawaii had said. It’s very telling that no linguist or lawyer has contended in any filing anywhere that “matches our records” is an insufficient phrasing; even incompetent Birfer lawyers know that wouldn’t hold water with any judge in the country.

    Parsing words? I have a great example;
    Eric Holder; “In regard to potential prosecution of the press for disclosure of material, this is not something I’ve ever been involved in, heard of, of would think would be wise policy.”
    By the way, he signed that very search warrant he was asked about.

  224. The Truth says:

    RanTalbott: The hell you haven’t: you’ve insulted everyone here with your childish game of “Gotcha!”, acting like you’d come up with questions no one here had thought of, with your insinuations, and with your demeaning generalizations.

    Are you merely pretending to be too stupid to realize that (thus adding yet another insult)? Or is really not an act?

    What I was referring to was I made no direct insult to any respondent by calling them some childish name, kind of like you calling me stupid.

  225. American Mzungu says:

    The Truth: I have a great example;

    …of a red herring argument.

  226. You’re getting off topic for the blog, and certainly off topic for the article.

    The Truth: Parsing words? I have a great example;
    Eric Holder; “In regard to potential prosecution of the press for disclosure of material, this is not something I’ve ever been involved in, heard of, of would think would be wise policy.”
    By the way, he signed that very search warrant he was asked about.

  227. JPotter says:

    Hilary Pete: The cross bar will not be on the bottom, it will be on the side. We all learned cursive in school. Dr. Sinclair obviously did. We make our “X’ from top to bottom,

    What’s your opinion on people who ‘cross’ their 7’s, as is common Europe? Or slash their zed’s? Or make 5’s in a single stroke? Who use commas for decimals and period for separating thousands? Who make 8’s in two circles, like little communist snowmen??? Oh, the humanity!

    The things we all learned in school …. was that a school with short buses and extra recess?

  228. The Truth says:

    From what I have read so far, it appears the general consensus is the government has not mislead, lied, hampered any investigation, parsed words or done anything to deceive anyone in the public. Who are we the people to question them? How dare we make any such accusation of Obama, he is the president.

    In order for a logical mind to even question such a thing there would need to be some type of reason. What could possibly make anyone bother to investigate?

    Let me see, perhaps the people that work directly for Obama;
    Eric Holder; a bipartisan majority of the House of Representatives voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt for his continued refusal to produce relevant documents,”- Obstruction of justice

    Eric Holder; “In regard to potential prosecution of the press for disclosure of material, this is not something I’ve ever been involved in, heard of, of would think would be wise policy.”- a lie

    James Clapper, Sen. Ron Wyden asked Clapper at a Senate Intelligence Committee hearing in March whether the government collected data on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans, and Clapper said, “no,” or at least “not wittingly.” -lie

    Susan Rice, Hillary Clinton, Obama, The Benghazi attack was a result of an anti muslim video – lie

    Obama, There is not a smidgen of corruption in the IRS. The investigation is not over, Lois Lerner has plead the fifth twice in front of congress- misleading at best

    Obama, You can keep your doctor, period.-lie
    You can keep your plan, period-lie
    Al Qaida has been decimated.-lie
    The best one yet, “this will be the most transparent administration ever”, hahaha, good one!

    So I agree, the government would never mislead, lie, parse words, obstruct justice, or in any way do anything that should create a reason for an average citizen to question them, especially the president. I apologize for asking any questions related to Obama that do not match your thought processes.

  229. bgansel9 says:

    The Truth:
    From what I have read so far, it appears the general consensus is the government has not mislead, lied, hampered any investigation, parsed words or done anything to deceive anyone in the public. Who are we the people to question them? How dare we make any such accusation of Obama, he is the president.

    In order for a logical mind to even question such a thing there would need to be some type of reason. What could possibly make anyone bother to investigate?

    Let me see, perhaps the people that work directly for Obama;
    Eric Holder; a bipartisan majority of the House of Representatives voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt for his continued refusal to produce relevant documents,”- Obstruction of justice

    Eric Holder; “In regard to potential prosecution of the press for disclosure of material, this is not something I’ve ever been involved in, heard of, of would think would be wise policy.”- a lie

    James Clapper, Sen. Ron Wyden asked Clapper at a Senate Intelligence Committee hearing in March whether the government collected data on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans, and Clapper said, “no,” or at least “not wittingly.” -lie

    Susan Rice, Hillary Clinton, Obama, The Benghazi attack was a result of an anti muslim video – lie

    Obama, There is not a smidgen of corruption in the IRS. The investigation is not over, Lois Lerner has plead the fifth twice in front of congress- misleading at best

    Obama, You can keep your doctor, period.-lie
    You can keep your plan, period-lie
    Al Qaida has been decimated.-lie
    The best one yet, “this will be the most transparent administration ever”, hahaha, good one!

    So I agree, the government would never mislead, lie, parse words, obstruct justice, or in any way do anything that should create a reason for an average citizen to question them, especially the president. I apologize for asking any questions related to Obama that do not match your thought processes.

    We don’t normally talk politics here, the topic of this website is the BIRTH CERTIFICATE and other Obama Conspiracies. Eric Holder is not Obama, James Clapper is not Obama. Susan Rice is not Obama. There are plenty of people online who can explain all of these things to you, why don’t you go on Facebook and find a discussion (countless groups are involved in these discussions daily). You are hijacking the topic of this thread and trying to open it up to a political fight. That sort of thing doesn’t happen here. Got it? Trolling for political strife is not acceptable here.

  230. The Truth says:

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    You’re getting off topic for the blog, and certainly off topic for the article.

    The point I am trying to make is that it is possible for the government to lie, mislead, cover up, and obstruct. It seems that all responses are based on that not being possible when I contend that it is.

  231. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: The point I am trying to make is that it is possible for the government to lie, mislead, cover up, and obstruct. It seems that all responses are based on that not being possible when I contend that it is.

    Wow this is your argument? That it’s a possibility but you have yet to show 1. A reason to believe they lied in this case, 2. Proof that they lied, 3. Motive for the state government to lie.

    You’re also presenting a straw man argument that has nothing to do with what was said to you. You claim you’re after the truth but thus far the only thing you’ve presented is long discredited lies.

  232. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: Actually, no, I am not on drugs, however, Obama has admitted to using them which by the way is illegal.

    In college. I’m sure many of us in their younger things did thing they weren’t proud of. The difference being is that he’s been open about it while other presidents have hedged. I don’t think there’s any other explanation for what you believe other than being on drugs.

  233. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: Parsing words? I have a great example;
    Eric Holder; “In regard to potential prosecution of the press for disclosure of material, this is not something I’ve ever been involved in, heard of, of would think would be wise policy.”

    So you’re changing the subject. What does someone parsing a verification have to do with Eric Holder?

  234. The Truth says:

    There are plenty of people online who can explain all of these things to you, why don’t you go on Facebook and find a discussion (countless groups are involved in these discussions daily). You are hijacking the topic of this thread and trying to open it up to a political fight. That sort of thing doesn’t happen here. Got it?Trolling for political strife is not acceptable here.

    I do not use Facebook, I thought it was social media and not politics, I will check it out.
    I am not trying to be political, I am trying to point out a basis as to why I would even question the BC in the first place. Until several months ago I had never paid any attention to it but after my observations of the government abuse I started doing so. The BC is not all I research. I stated before, I am an independent, I think that both parties are just as guilty of these issues. I have seen Bush mentioned in this thread, that was not moderated? Bush lied about WMD, a further basis for my defense that it is possible for deceit

  235. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: Red herring, blah blah blah

    Are all these red herrings you keep throwing out your way of changing the subject on you being caught telling obvious lies?

  236. bgansel9 says:

    The Truth: I have seen Bush mentioned in this thread, that was not moderated? Bush lied about WMD, a further basis for my defense that it is possible for deceit

    By discussing the political ramifications of officials in the Obama administration, you are opening this discussion up to much more than the topic (and the site rules) calls for.

  237. Whether or not Bush lied tells nothing about whether Obama lied; therefore, it is irrelevant to “Obama Conspiracy Theories.” I grant some latitude on the Open Thread, but clearly Bush does not belong on this topic about Lent.

    The Truth: I am trying to point out a basis as to why I would even question the BC in the first place. Until several months ago I had never paid any attention to it but after my observations of the government abuse I started doing so. The BC is not all I research. I stated before, I am an independent, I think that both parties are just as guilty of these issues. I have seen Bush mentioned in this thread, that was not moderated? Bush lied about WMD, a further basis for my defense that it is possible for deceit

  238. The Magic M says:

    The Truth: Bush lied about WMD, a further basis for my defense that it is possible for deceit

    “Politicians lie” or “there have been real conspiracies” does not lend one ounce of additional credibility to a conspiracy theory that has no leg to stand on to begin with.

    Just because “Bush lied” or “Obama lied” or “Watergate did happen”, it doesn’t mean any wild crank theory about them suddenly moves from “absolutely foolish and not credible” to “at least remotely possible”.

  239. RanTalbott says:

    John Reilly: While that reference may not satisfy the lawyers or courts who have not yet adapted to the internet age, that reference is, for all practical purposes, a certification.

    No, it’s a verification. There’s an important difference: I could scribble the name, birthdate, and birthplace on a used pizza box and get the information verified. But I couldn’t use that pizza box for “practical purposes” like registering to vote or applying for a job that required proof of citizenship. You can use a certified copy for them.

    I know that the law has made some adaptations to the internet age with digital signing of documents and such, though I don’t know how far it’s gone.

    But Hawaii would never certify the PDF, because it has been altered. The JBIG2 and JPEG compressions made alterations that are even visible to the naked eye, if you look closely. Calling it a “true and accurate copy” would debase the term.

    It’s important to draw the distinction, because it shows the folly of birfers trying to draw meaningful conclusions from analyzing what really is the equivalent of a vacation snapshot taken with a cheap disposable camera. Not only is it “just a picture”, it’s not even “a high quality picture”.

  240. bgansel9 says:

    RanTalbott: Mmmm, no: one of the few things Zullo got right is that the PDF is not a legal document. Of course, he then screwed that up by claiming that it is, and that it was a “felony” (exactly which felony, deponent saith not) to fabricate it (exactly how, deponent also saith not).

    It is a rendering of a legal document. The State of Hawaii points to a document online that they call the Birth Certificate. The information matches. It is NOT an actual certificate (it is a picture of an actual certificate) but the certificate rendered IS legal.

  241. Arthur says:

    The Truth: the BC is not all I research.

    For the love of Pete, when will these RWNJ’s stop using the word “research” when what they really mean is “scanning conspiracy websites while wearing my bathrobe.”

  242. The Magic M (not logged in) says:

    RanTalbott: The JBIG2 and JPEG compressions made alterations that are even visible to the naked eye, if you look closely. Calling it a “true and accurate copy” would debase the term.

    No, or otherwise no 1960’s photocopy (or equivalent) could ever be called a “true and accurate copy” (see the Nordykes’ BC).
    Or a black-and-white photocopy of a coloured document.
    The quality of the rendering itself has nothing to do with it.

    If it is a copy that displays the original information the same way the original did (as a photocopy does, as opposed to the COLB which only copies the information), it’s a “true and accurate copy”, even if there are artifacts associated with copying/scanning.

    If you just scribble the information on another piece of paper, it’s not a “true and accurate *copy*” (but a true and accurate rendering of the information).

  243. I love that quote Arthur. That is a keeper.

    I started writing a blog post last year after I analyzed the typed letters on every known Hawaii BC I could find a copy of on the net. I had a theory that I could show that the same typewriter was used to type all the birth certificates from Kapi’olni Hospital in the early 1960’s. I believe I found that certain letters seemed to be displaced the same way on the Obama. Nordykes, and Ah’Nee certificates that were all from August 1961. I think I found another one from a year or two later that also fit the patterns.

    I never published the article for a number of reasons. I was not convinced it was conclusive enough to make the claim and the quality of some of the images is really poor, especially the Nordykes’. I decided after a while I was really just doing the Irey thing and didn’t go any further with it. I also noticed that certain letters in elite and pica typeface that are asymmetrical will look displaced when they are not. The lower case “i” is a good example.

    I think it would be a good project for someone with expertise in analyzing typewritten documents. (Not Paul Irey or Reed Hayes, however. 😆 ) It is likely that one nurse or clerk prepared the birth certificates in the the hospital so it is a reasonable guess that the same typewriter was used.

    Arthur: For the love of Pete, when will these RWNJ’s stop using the word “research” when what they really mean is “scanning conspiracy websites while wearing my bathrobe.”

  244. Arthur says:

    Reality Check: I never published the article for a number of reasons.

    As your example demonstrates, when you do real research, about half the time you discover that the evidence that would support your hypothesis is inconclusive or points to a different conclusion. Birthers cannot tolerate that.

  245. The truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Are all these red herrings you keep throwing out your way of changing the subject on you being caught telling obvious lies?

    Here is my red herring as you describe. This is what my research has found so far;
    1. I do not believe that Barack Obama Sr is the real father of the president.
    2. I do not believe that Ann Dunham and Obama were legally married, it appears they didn’t even live together. I realize that would not void the BC, it is a statement.
    3. This is what renders me to believe the BC is fraudulent.
    If you wish for me to elaborate with some evidence to my theory I will provide the information, that is, after I enjoy all the members here demeaning and name calling me and my comments above first (;

  246. Majority Will says:

    The truth: Here is my red herring as you describe. This is what my research has found so far;
    1. I do not believe that Barack Obama Sr is the real father of the president.
    2. I do not believe that Ann Dunham and Obama were legally married, it appears they didn’t even live together. I realize that would not void the BC, it is a statement.
    3. This is what renders me to believe the BC is fraudulent.
    If you wish for me to elaborate with some evidence to my theory I will provide the information, that is, after I enjoy all the members here demeaning and name calling me and my comments above first (;

    You haven’t demonstrated that you understand the concept of credible evidence.

    You’ve posted nothing but utter garbage and debunked lies with nothing even close to credible to back it up.

    So why bother?

    The very basic truth is that you choose to believe hate driven birthers and other bigots motivated by a strong political and/or racist agenda rather than the legal authority of the State of Hawaii backed by the U.S. Constitution.

    “Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.” Article IV, Section 1 of the United States Constitution

  247. Crustacean says:

    The truth: This is what my research has found so far;

    For the love of Pete! (*wink* in Arthur’s direction)

  248. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Here is my red herring as you describe. This is what my research has found so far;

    There’s your first problem. What you’re doing isn’t research it achieves the same affect as sticking a big wooden stick up your butt, pulling it out and then smelling it and calling it chocolate.

    The truth: 1. I do not believe that Barack Obama Sr is the real father of the president.

    There is no evidence to support that conclusion. So if he wasn’t really his father what would be the point of claiming he was born in Kenya? The whole Obama not born in the US claim falls apart using that claim.

    The truth: 2. I do not believe that Ann Dunham and Obama were legally married, it appears they didn’t even live together. I realize that would not void the BC, it is a statement

    And? What does that matter? Nothing in the constitution says that the presidents parents must have been married at the time of his birth.

    The truth: 3. This is what renders me to believe the BC is fraudulent.

    What? So lets see one thing you mentioned is why you believe the BC is fraudulent but the one thing you believe you’ve presented no proof to support that conclusion. So in other words you have no reason to believe what you believe other than your hatred of the President. You wonder why people ridicule you. You came here asking stupid questions that have been answered thousands of times here. You then further pull off the veil of stupidity by spouting even more stupid things. Any illusion you were trying to maintain of intellectual honesty has disappeared at this point.

    The only thing you’ve shown though is bigotry seems to drive your beliefs. A rational person wouldn’t claim that Barack Obama Sr wasn’t his father as there’s no proof to support the contention. If you look at a young Obama with pictures with his dad he has resemblances to both Obama Sr’s family and Ann Dunham’s family.

  249. The truth says:

    I believe the father of Obama is Muhammad Subuh, the founder of Subud. Here is a link to his picture that is believed to be legitimate;

    http://www.dirkcampbell.co.uk/Subud_and_Sufism.html

    Striking resemblance compared to Obama Sr.

    Read page 89, Ann Dunham ran away to San Francisco in 1959/1960

    Hhttp://www.scribd.com/doc/97444384/A-Singular-Woman-The-Untold-Story-of-Barack-Obama-s-Mother

    Also read page 141 that explains her connection to Subud.
    Read page 90 that states Dunham “vanished” shortly after the trip to San Francisco.

    I suspect people will say they were not even in the same country at the same time, this link shows he was here and in San Francisco 1959/1960.

    http://www.pewarta.us/bapak/bio.html

    The best thing is, Mrs Fuddy happened to belong to the very same organization that only has 20,000 members world wide, what a coincidence. Coincidence about her death also.

    http://subudgreaterseattle.com/?s=fuddy

    I checked for an archived story I had seen previously in the Honolulu Adviser, it states Subud entered Hawaii in 1960. Here is the now disabled link;

    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Aug/25/il/il10a.html

    Funny things is, guess where Subud was originated, bingo, Indonesia. Another coincidence

    There sure seems to be a lot of coincidences involved here. Perhaps a mathematician could equate what the odds are of all this happening as a coincidence?

    I know the hard core believers will just call me names and say I have no proof they slept together, to that I say, you cant prove Obama Sr did either.

    Now you people have some research to do with my claims?

  250. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: I believe the father of Obama is Muhammad Subuh, the founder of Subud. Here is a link to his picture that is believed to be legitimate

    You’re crazy!

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/11/article-2186782-147CF682000005DC-105_634x458.jpg

    Isn’t it funny that someone who calls him/herself “the truth” believes in nothing but propaganda and lies.

  251. Majority Will says:

    The truth: There sure seems to be a lot of coincidences involved here.

    You still haven’t demonstrated that you understand the concept of credible evidence.

    Your latest bizarre ramblings aren’t nearly as interesting or creative as this:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/01/is-obama-a-marsist/

    Try harder.

  252. RanTalbott says:

    The truth: Here is my red herring as you describe.

    And an accurate description it was. Looking at you points:

    1. Possible. I have no idea how likely, and don’t care, because the only thing it would be relevant to is carving up his father’s estate.
    2. Also possible. Given Obama Senior’s marriage in Kenya, I’d be willing to assume it’s true, subject to rebuttal from a lawyer who can explain why that marriage doesn’t invalidate his marriage to Dunham.
    3. Horsehockey: neither 1 nor 2 have any effect on 3.

    That’s truly pathetic: it’s not even fallacious reasoning.

  253. The truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: There’s your first problem.What you’re doing isn’t research it achieves the same affect as sticking a big wooden stick up your butt, pulling it out and then smelling it and calling it chocolate.

    There is no evidence to support that conclusion.So if he wasn’t really his father what would be the point of claiming he was born in Kenya?The whole Obama not born in the US claim falls apart using that claim.

    And?What does that matter?Nothing in the constitution says that the presidents parents must have been married at the time of his birth.

    What?So lets see one thing you mentioned is why you believe the BC is fraudulent but the one thing you believe you’ve presented no proof to support that conclusion.So in other words you have no reason to believe what you believe other than your hatred of the President.You wonder why people ridicule you.You came here asking stupid questions that have been answered thousands of times here.You then further pull off the veil of stupidity by spouting even more stupid things.Any illusion you were trying to maintain of intellectual honesty has disappeared at this point.

    The only thing you’ve shown though is bigotry seems to drive your beliefs.A rational person wouldn’t claim that Barack Obama Sr wasn’t his father as there’s no proof to support the contention.If you look at a young Obama with pictures with his dad he has resemblances to both Obama Sr’s family and Ann Dunham’s family.

    When did I state he was born in Kenya?

  254. bob says:

    You offer nothing but gossip, innuendo, hearsay, and speculation.

    Barack Obama, Sr. and Stanley Ann Durham are listed as the parents on President Obama’s birth certificate. Which was issued by the State of Hawaii. Which is entitled to Full Faith & Credit under the U.S. Constitution and the United States’ laws.

    So why do you hate America?

  255. The truth says:

    bob:
    You offer nothing but gossip, innuendo, hearsay, and speculation.

    Barack Obama, Sr. and Stanley Ann Durham are listed as the parents on President Obama’s birth certificate.Which was issued by the State of Hawaii.Which is entitled to Full Faith & Credit under the U.S. Constitution and the United States’ laws.

    Hate America? Is that your response to what I have found? I hate corruption at the expense of Americans. Oh wait, you believe that corruption is not possible my bad.

    So why do you hate America?

  256. Jim says:

    The truth:
    I believe…

    I suspect…

    For all your beliefs and your suspects you have one vote. You lost. Get over it.

  257. The truth says:

    Jim: For your beliefs and your suspects you have one vote.You lost.Get over it.

    I lost? Lost what? Did you even look at the links? I doubt it. But then, once a mind is made up it is hard to change.

  258. The truth says:

    bgansel9: You’re crazy!

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/11/article-2186782-147CF682000005DC-105_634x458.jpg

    Isn’t it funny that someone who calls him/herself “the truth” believes in nothing but propaganda and lies.

    I would assume your definition of crazy is someone who does not agree with you?

  259. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: I believe the father of Obama is Muhammad Subuh, the founder of Subud. Here is a link to his picture that is believed to be legitimate;

    Please tell me how Obama ended up with skin and hair that derive from the African race if his father was from the Austronesian Malay race?

    http://www.retronaut.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/170.jpg

  260. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: I would assume your definition of crazy is someone who does not agree with you?

    Please tell me, if Barack Obama’s father is not Barack Obama, Sr., then what is he doing in a photograph with Barack Obama, Sr.?

  261. The truth says:

    bgansel9: Please tell me how Obama ended up with skin and hair that derive from the African race if his father was from the Austronesian Malay race?

    http://www.retronaut.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/170.jpg

    Suduh very well could have that trait in his DNA, it happens all the time. Why would a black couple have a baby with blue eyes? Are you telling me that is not possible? Look at the pictures of Suduh, Obama Sr, and Obama Jr and tell me what is more likely.

  262. Jim says:

    The truth: I lost? Lost what? Did you even look at the links? I doubt it. But then, once a mind is made up it is hard to change.

    Well, let’s see, there was about how many African-american servicemen stationed in Hawaii at that time? By your standards of “make-it-up-as-I-go” all of them could be the President’s father. Your beliefs are your own, they have no value in the real world, and you lost. BTW, I notice that you’ve been debunked over and over and over again, I guess you’re the one with the closed mind.

  263. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: Suduh very well could have that trait in his DNA, it happens all the time. Why would a black couple have a baby with blue eyes? Are you telling me that is not possible? Look at the pictures of Suduh, Obama Sr, and Obama Jr and tell me what is more likely.

    You’re reaching. There is nothing in Suduh’s images that shows any black features whatsoever. You’re CRAZY! What do I see? I see that Barack Obama looked mostly like his mother, the facial traits are inherited from his mother.

    I look like Judy Garland, does that make me her daughter? You’re CRAZY!

  264. The truth says:

    bgansel9: You’re reaching. There is nothing in Suduh’s images that shows any black features whatsoever. You’re CRAZY! What do I see? I see that Barack Obama looked mostly like his mother, the facial traits are inherited from his mother.

    I look like Judy Garland, does that make me her daughter? You’re CRAZY!

    If I am crazy, explain the connection between Dunham and Indonesia, also her and Fuddy both belonging to some cult of 20,000 worldwide I have never heard of. Another coincidence? Seems like a lot of them.

  265. bgansel9 says:

    and his name isn’t even Suduh (duh!) his name is Subuh. This is obviously a new belief you just “researched” (more like pulled out of your derriere) about two hours ago. LOL

  266. BillTheCat says:

    The truth: But then, once a mind is made up it is hard to change.

    Like all birthers, you have absolutely no sense of irony. None.

    Subuh, LOL, when did you start believing in that horse excrement, when it was published a couple weeks ago on a conspiracy hugbox? WND?

    You are the personification of Grabbing At Straws.

  267. The truth says:

    bgansel9: You’re reaching. There is nothing in Suduh’s images that shows any black features whatsoever. You’re CRAZY! What do I see? I see that Barack Obama looked mostly like his mother, the facial traits are inherited from his mother.

    I look like Judy Garland, does that make me her daughter? You’re CRAZY!

    First you ask how is Obama black instead of Malaysian colored, I answer and your response is to say he looks like his mother? Who is crazy? Looks like his mother? That’s a good one.

  268. Crustacean says:

    The truth: I would assume your definition of crazy is someone who does not agree with you?

    No. To truly understand our definition of crazy, you’ll need to book a flight to Clewiston, Florida. You think Barack Obama, Sr. is not the president’s father? Well, wait ’til you hear the story our friend Nancy has to tell! She’s a killer journalist.

    (Word to the wise: don’t turn your back on her).

  269. Whatever4 says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Read page 89, Ann Dunham ran away to San Francisco in 1959/1960

    Hhttp://www.scribd.com/doc/97444384/A-Singular-Woman-The-Untold-Story-of-Barack-Obama-s-Mother

    Also read page 141 that explains her connection to Subud.
    Read page 90 that states Dunham “vanished” shortly after the trip to San Francisco.

    I suspect people will say they were not even in the same country at the same time, this link shows he was here and in San Francisco 1959/1960.

    I have the book “A Singular Woman.” The trip to San Francisco was in the Summer of 1959 or the Spring of 1960. Unfortunately, it’s on Kindle so I don’t have page numbers.

    I believe the Page 90 excerpt is this:

    Whatever the case, sometime shortly after graduation in 1960, Stanley Ann vanished. “She was upset that she had to move,” Maxine Box remembered. “She really didn’t have any choice.”

    Reading the entire section, it’s clear that she vanished from the perspective of her friends that moved on, not that she literally vanished. Before and after that quote, the author talks about the plans that Dunham and other students had for after graduation. The section ends with:

    Apart from a few fleeting encounters, few of her friends ever saw or heard from her again.

    That’s clearly talking about friends moving on and losing touch.

    As for the Subud connection, there are 3 referenced to Subud and none to Subuh. None say that Dunham was a member, just that she knew people who were.

    From your link about Subuh, his presence in San Francisco in 1960 was part of a whirlwind 15+ country trip with his wife and daughter. Dunham was in San Francisco for a few days. The odds are astronomical that they were even a few blocks from each other, let alone met up.

    Here’s your disabled link, on the Wayback Machine. http://web.archive.org/web/20020107061432/http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Aug/25/il/il10a.html

    So Dunham knew members of Subud in Indonesia but doesn’t appear to have been a member. Fuddy was a member. I see no reason to weave conspiracy theories about them.

  270. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: If I am crazy, explain the connection between Dunham and Indonesia, also her and Fuddy both belonging to some cult of 20,000 worldwide I have never heard of. Another coincidence? Seems like a lot of them.

    The connection between Ann Dunham and Indonesia was the University of Hawaii where she met her second husband and then moved with him to Indonesia and did field work research in her field in ANTHROPOLOGY! You’re an idiot!

  271. The truth says:

    bgansel9:
    and his name isn’t even Suduh (duh!) his name is Subuh. This is obviously a new belief you just “researched” (more like pulled out of your derriere) about two hours ago. LOL

    Is that the only real response you have is how to spell his name? I thought little subtle issues like that didn’t bother you when it comes to a BC defense. Who is grasping at straws now?

  272. The truth says:

    bgansel9: The connection between Ann Dunham and Indonesia was the University of Hawaii where she met her second husband and then moved with him to Indonesia and did field work research in her field in ANTHROPOLOGY! You’re an idiot!

    You didn’t explain the connection with the cult, who is the idiot? Only answer what is comfortable?

  273. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: First you ask how is Obama black instead of Malaysian colored, I answer and your response is to say he looks like his mother? Who is crazy? Looks like his mother? That’s a good one.

    I said his facial traits are inherited from his mother. Notice the chin? He does look like his mother. He has his father’s coloring and much of his facial traits come from both mother and father (mother’s facial features being more pronounced).

  274. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: Is that the only real response you have is how to spell his name? I thought little subtle issues like that didn’t bother you when it comes to a BC defense. Who is grasping at straws now?

    You don’t even know who you are discussing. Don’t look at ME, you were talking about someone called Suduh, and I don’t find ANYONE with that name.

  275. The truth says:

    The truth:
    I believe the father of Obama is Muhammad Subuh, the founder ofSubud. Here is a link to his picture that is believed to be legitimate;

    http://www.dirkcampbell.co.uk/Subud_and_Sufism.html

    Striking resemblance compared to Obama Sr.

    Read page 89, Ann Dunham ran away to San Francisco in 1959/1960

    Hhttp://www.scribd.com/doc/97444384/A-Singular-Woman-The-Untold-Story-of-Barack-Obama-s-Mother

    Also read page 141 that explains her connection to Subud.
    Read page 90 that states Dunham “vanished” shortly after the trip to San Francisco.

    I suspect people will say they were not even in the same country at the same time, this link shows he was here and in San Francisco 1959/1960.

    http://www.pewarta.us/bapak/bio.html

    The best thing is, Mrs Fuddy happened to belong to the very same organization that only has 20,000 members world wide, what a coincidence. Coincidence about her death also.

    http://subudgreaterseattle.com/?s=fuddy

    I checked for an archived story I had seen previously in the Honolulu Adviser, it states Subud entered Hawaii in 1960. Here is the now disabled link;

    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Aug/25/il/il10a.html

    Funny things is, guess where Subud was originated, bingo, Indonesia. Another coincidence

    There sure seems to be a lot of coincidences involved here. Perhaps a mathematician could equate what the odds are of all this happening as a coincidence?

    I know the hard core believers will just call me names and say I have no proof they slept together, to that I say, you cant prove Obama Sr did either.

    Now you people have some research to do with my claims?

    Look at my opening comment with my accusations and if you can read, tell me what is says.

  276. Rickey says:

    The truth: Here is my red herring as you describe. This is what my research has found so far;
    1. I do not believe that Barack Obama Sr is the real father of the president.
    2. I do not believe that Ann Dunham and Obama were legally married, it appears they didn’t even live together. I realize that would not void the BC, it is a statement.
    3. This is what renders me to believe the BC is fraudulent.
    If you wish for me to elaborate with some evidence to my theory I will provide the information, that is, after I enjoy all the members here demeaning and name calling me and my comments above first (;

    Even if your beliefs happened to be correct, what difference does it make? It doesn’t matter if Obama’s father was Barack Obama or Malcolm X or Attila the Hun. He was born in the United States, so he is a natural born citizen.

    However, if Obama Sr. and Stanley Ann Dunham never got married, how did they manage to get divorced?

    That Libellant [Stanley Ann D. Obama] and Libellee [Barack H. Obama] were legally married in Wailuku, Maui, State of Hawaii, on February 2, 1961, by a person duly authorized to perform marriage ceremonies and ever since that date have been and are now husband and wife.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/12234409/Divorce-Decree-1964-13-Pages-Merged

    I guess your “research” didn’t turn up that document.

  277. Sef says:

    The truth: If I am crazy, explain the connection between Dunham and Indonesia, also her and Fuddy both belonging to some cult of 20,000 worldwide I have never heard of. Another coincidence? Seems like a lot of them.

    Why don’t you just buy the President’s biography and read it for yourself? That would save everyone a lot of trouble repeating the same thing over and over and over and over and …

  278. bgansel9 says:

    Subuh is Javanese (a particular type of Austronesian Malayu), not African. Subuh, according to the biography on the Subud site states that he was Javanese and refused to acknowledge that Javanese were lower class than Europeans as was taught to Indonesians. He was a Javanese and his race has particular features that they do not share with the African race. The hair for one thing. How did Barack Obama get his African hair?

  279. Crustacean says:

    The truth: who is the idiot?

    Wait! Don’t tell me! Is it the person who believes Obama’s birth certificate is a “fraudulent document” even though every justification for that belief has been systematically shot to pieces like so many little clay pigeons at a trapshooting contest?

    Got any more? PULL!!!!!

  280. The truth says:

    Rickey: Even if your beliefs happened tobe correct, what difference does it make? It doesn’t matter if Obama’s father was Barack Obama or Malcolm X or Attila the Hun. He was born in the United States, so he is a natural born citizen.

    However, if Obama Sr. and Stanley Ann Dunham never got married, how did they manage to get divorced?

    That Libellant [Stanley Ann D. Obama] and Libellee [Barack H. Obama] were legally married in Wailuku, Maui, State of Hawaii, on February 2, 1961, by a person duly authorized to perform marriage ceremonies and ever since that date have been and are now husband and wife.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/12234409/Divorce-Decree-1964-13-Pages-Merged

    I guess your “research” didn’t turn up that documents.

    There are INS documents that suspected he was not married, he almost did not get an extended visa because it was known he was also married to someone else. Do I need to provide that link also? I am sure it has been on this site before. And, if Obama Sr was not his father that means that Dunham lied on the BC, for what reason? That in turn makes the entire BC information suspect doesn’t it?

  281. bgansel9 says:

    Rickey: I guess your “research” didn’t turn up that document.

    It didn’t comport with his conspiracy theory.

  282. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: You didn’t explain the connection with the cult, who is the idiot? Only answer what is comfortable?

    Well, since the cult started in Indonesia, what’s to explain?

  283. The truth says:

    Sef: Why don’t you just buy the President’s biography and read it for yourself? That would save everyone a lot of trouble repeating the same thing over and over and over and over and …

    So the presidents bio explains Dunham and Fuddy’s connection to the cult? Is that what you are saying?

  284. bob says:

    The truth: Hate America? Is that your response to what I have found?

    Yes, because you “found” exactly nothing. Yet you willfully disregard the United States’ constitution and laws in an effort to undermine its legitimately elected leader.

  285. American Mzungu says:

    OMG, I don’t check the thread for a couple hours and I discover the troll is loose. Connecting dots. Sharing the results of his research. There is no hope.

  286. American Mzungu says:

    OMG, I don’t check the thread for a couple hours and I discover the troll is loose. Connecting dots. Sharing the results of his research. There is no hope.

  287. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: There are INS documents that suspected he was not married,

    In other words, don’t look at that divorce decree with stamp from the Circuit Court of the State of Hawaii, one MUST believe some RUMOR that you heard on the INTERNETS! Bwahahahahhahaha!

  288. The truth says:

    Crustacean: Wait! Don’t tell me!Is it the person who believes Obama’s birth certificate is a “fraudulent document” even though every justification for that belief has been systematically shot to pieces like so many little clay pigeons at a trapshooting contest?

    Got any more? PULL!!!!!

    Yes that is correct, it is fraudulent if Obama Sr is not the real father. Only Dunham needed to sign it he did not.

  289. The truth says:

    bob: Yes, because you “found” exactly nothing.Yet you willfully disregard the United States’ constitution and laws in an effort to undermine its legitimately elected leader.

    If you wish to discuss the violation of the Constitution we will need another thread. I believe there remains issues regarding violations against the constitution waiting for the supreme courts decision. But like I said, that’s another thread.

  290. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: So the presidents bio explains Dunham and Fuddy’s connection to the cult? Is that what you are saying?

    Look, Dunham knew friends in Indonesia who were members of Subud and Fuddy found Subud AFTER Subuh spread the belief around through his travels. It’s really NOT hard to figure out. Hawaii contains a population that is also of the Austronesian race (they are Polynesians). It would be a natural place for him to go in his travels.

  291. The truth says:

    bgansel9: In other words, don’t look at that divorce decree with stamp from the Circuit Court of the State of Hawaii, one MUST believe some RUMOR that you heard on the INTERNETS! Bwahahahahhahaha!

    Ok, show verification they were married, a divorce decree does not prove it. Did you read Obamas book, he even admits there is no paperwork? Wow.

  292. bgansel9 says:

    Crustacean: No. To truly understand our definition of crazy, you’ll need to book a flight to Clewiston, Florida. You think Barack Obama, Sr. is not the president’s father? Well, wait ’til you hear the story our friend Nancy has to tell! She’s a killer journalist.

    ::high five Crustacean:: LMAO!

  293. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: Ok, show verification they were married, a divorce decree does not prove it.

    You don’t do any genealogical research, obviously (probably because it has the word LOGICAL in it). One need not have a marriage certificate to prove a marriage if one has a divorce certificate. The divorce certificate PROVES the marriage existed. You’re an idiot!

  294. RanTalbott says:

    The truth: Yes that is correct, it is fraudulent if Obama Sr is not the real father.

    I don’t believe you. Cite the statute that says that.

  295. The truth says:

    bgansel9: Look, Dunham knew friends in Indonesia who were members of Subud and Fuddy found Subud AFTER Subuh spread the belief around through his travels. It’s really NOT hard to figure out. Hawaii contains a population that is also of the Austronesian race (they are Polynesians). It would be a natural place for him to go in his travels.

    So what you are saying is that a WORLD WIDE membership of 20,000 (that is a high estimate) would be a natural thing for them to both join? Until a few months ago when Fuddy died I had never even heard of it. I have placed Dunham in the same city in the same year as this nut job, she was staying with a friend on a college campus at the time, where do you think she would meet him at the grocery store? Have you read this nut jobs beliefs? God picked him out specially to talk to him white light and all. Why would Hawaii install her in that kind of position in the first place? She was a leader in the cult. Would they hire someone from a Jim Jones cult also?

  296. Crustacean says:

    The truth: Yes that is correct, it is fraudulent if Obama Sr is not the real father. Only Dunham needed to sign it he did not.

    That’s a big “if.” Without a paternity test, you’ve got nothing. And even if your speculation were correct, unless the “real” father were to come along making demands for custody of his son – unlikely, given that President Obama is no longer a minor – there would be no relevance to Obama’s eligibility to serve as president.

    KAPOW!!!

    PULL!!!

  297. Rickey says:

    The truth: And, if Obama Sr was not his father that means that Dunham lied on the BC, for what reason? That in turn makes the entire BC information suspect doesn’t it?

    If, if, if.

    No, it would not necessarily mean that Dunham lied on the birth certificate. Even if your fantasy about Barack Obama not being the father were proved to be correct, how would we know that Dunham did not honestly believe that he was the father? And misidentifying the father on a birth certificate does not in any way invalidate the facts of the date and place of birth, except in the fevered minds of overwrought birthers.The date and place of birth are the only relevant factors regarding President Obama’s eligibility.

    The birth certificate says that President Obama was born in Honolulu on August 4, 1961 at Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital. They didn’t get that information from Obama’s mother.

  298. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: So what you are saying is that a WORLD WIDE membership of 20,000

    With Subud having an arm to the organization in Hawaii, while it may seem like a great coincidence, it’s not really.

    Hawaii had 50 active members, 25 on Oahu. Are they all a coincidence? The fact that Fuddy was one of them just means she was drawn to the belief and nothing more:
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:eP8XOWnjOh8J:the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Aug/25/il/il10a.html+&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

  299. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: And, if Obama Sr was not his father that means that Dunham lied on the BC, for what reason? That in turn makes the entire BC information suspect doesn’t it?

    You are putting the cart before the horse. PROVE THE LIE FIRST before you start asking why. LOL You’re an IDIOT!

  300. bgansel9 says:

    Rickey: They didn’t get that information from Obama’s mother.

    That’s correct. LOL

  301. Rickey says:

    The truth: Ok, show verification they were married, a divorce decree does not prove it. Did you read Obamas book, he even admits there is no paperwork? Wow.

    You cannot get a divorce without first having a marriage. It would have been a simple matter for the Circuit Court in Honolulu to verify that a marriage certificate had been issued. Unless of course you want to believe that the divorce attorney and the judge were in on the “fraud.”

    Why would Stanley Ann bother filing for divorce if she and Obama had never been married? That makes no sense at all.

  302. bgansel9 says:

    Crustacean: unlikely, given that President Obama is no longer a minor – there would be no relevance to Obama’s eligibility to serve as president.

    And because Subuh is dead. Subuh was born in 1901 and died in 1987. Why would a young Ann Dunham want to have sex with a sixy year old man? I never quite caught that. Barack Obama, Sr was about 25 years old, not sixty!

  303. Crustacean says:

    The truth: Have you read this nut jobs beliefs? God picked him out specially to talk to him white light and all.

    Isn’t that pretty much the story that the Pharisee Saul told about his trip to Damascus, before he became the Apostle named Paul?

    So what, you callin’ Paul a nut job? Huh??

  304. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: So what you are saying is that a WORLD WIDE membership of 20,000 (that is a high estimate) would be a natural thing for them to both join?

    Please show me proof that Ann Dunham was a member of Subud.

  305. Crustacean says:

    bgansel9: And because Subuh is dead.

    Well, sure, there’s that, too. LOL 😀

  306. bgansel9 says:

    Crustacean: Isn’t that pretty much the story that the Pharisee Saul told about his trip to Damascus, before he became the Apostle named Paul?

    So what, you callin’ Paul a nut job? Huh??

    Exactly!

  307. The truth says:

    Crustacean: That’s a big “if.”Without a paternity test, you’ve got nothing.And even if your speculation were correct, unless the “real” father were to come along making demands for custody of his son – unlikely, given that President Obama is no longer a minor – there would be no relevance to Obama’s eligibility to serve as president.

    KAPOW!!!

    PULL!!!

    I do enjoy the Kapow pull, you must own a gun. I do, I say that when I go to the range to shoot clay pigeons.

  308. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: I have placed Dunham in the same city in the same year as this nut job, she was staying with a friend on a college campus at the time, where do you think she would meet him at the grocery store? Have you read this nut jobs beliefs? God picked him out specially to talk to him white light and all. Why would Hawaii install her in that kind of position in the first place? She was a leader in the cult. Would they hire someone from a Jim Jones cult also?

    You obviously have never heard of Occam’s Razor. Your fantasy is nothing more than exactly that, a fantasy. Keep smoking that crack, dude.

  309. The truth says:

    bgansel9: Exactly!

    What does this have to do with someone that lived 2000 years ago? Did the bible state anything about false profits? Are you saying this guy was legitimate? If you are, they are still taking members but he is dead.

  310. Crustacean says:

    Crustacean: unless the “real” father were to come along making demands for custody of his son – unlikely, given that President Obama is no longer a minor – there would be no relevance to Obama’s eligibility to serve as president.

    Oh no, I got sucked into the vortex of stupidity! Of course, Obama’s eligibility to serve as POTUS is completely unrelated to whether or not his biological father signed his birth certificate.

  311. bob says:

    The truth: If you wish to discuss the violation of the Constitution we will need another thread. I believe there remains issues regardingviolations against the constitution waiting for the supreme courts decision. But like I said, that’s another thread.

    I’m cool discussing it here. You purposefully deny the Full Faith & Credit due the State of Hawaii’s official documents because you are undermining the United States’ legitimately elected leader.

    Sounds like an America-hating seditionist.

  312. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: What does this have to do with someone that lived 2000 years ago? Did the bible state anything about false profits? Are you saying this guy was legitimate? If you are, they are still taking members but he is dead.

    You said: “Have you read this nut jobs beliefs? God picked him out specially to talk to him white light and all.” – it is the same thing that Paul says happened to him. As far as my beliefs, I already have a belief system, and it’s probably one you’ve never heard of. It’s not that hard to find people who believe differently from you.

  313. The truth says:

    bgansel9: Please show me proof that Ann Dunham was a member of Subud.

    Let me see, back in the 1960’s when she was exposed to it there was probably less than 5,000 members in the world. Why would it be mentioned in a book about her? Oh let me guess, just a coincidence, the New York Times writer that wrote the book just embellished it and threw the word Subud

  314. bgansel9 says:

    bob: Sounds like an America-hating seditionist.

    on drugs, don’t forget that part. This level of crazy doesn’t happen without some heavy duty crack smoking.

  315. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: Let me see, back in the 1960′swhen she was exposed to it there was probably less than 5,000 members in the world. Why would it be mentioned in a book about her? Oh let me guess, just a coincidence, the New York Times writer that wrote the book just embellished it and threw the word Subud

    She knew people in the organization, so what? You have not shown proof. Show PROOF.

  316. RanTalbott says:

    Crustacean: Isn’t that pretty much the story that the Pharisee Saul told about his trip to Damascus, before he became the Apostle named Paul?

    Also similar to Moses’ story. Although he brough back souvenirs. Real certified copies: none of that PDF crap.

  317. bgansel9 says:

    RanTalbott: Also similar to Moses’ story. Although he brough back souvenirs.

    ::spitting out Gatorade:: LMAO!

  318. The truth says:

    bgansel9: She knew people in the organization, so what? You have not shown proof. Show PROOF.

    That is a crack smoking response, that’s like me saying you need to prove she was not. Did you read anything about him? He admits knowing her? Try connecting the dots, how many coincidences do you believe in? Buy a lottery ticket, the odds are better you will win than I am wrong about her.,

  319. The truth says:

    RanTalbott: Also similar to Moses’ story. Although he brough back souvenirs. Real certified copies: none of that PDF crap.

    Thanks for the laugh, that was funny.

  320. The truth says:

    bob: I’m cool discussing it here.You purposefully deny the Full Faith & Credit due the State of Hawaii’s official documents because you are undermining the United States’ legitimately elected leader.

    Sounds like an America-hating seditionist.

    Actually if you would bother to read my comments I contend that Dunham lied on the BC, how would the sate of Hawaii know that he didn’t need to sign the BC? Wow.

  321. Crustacean says:

    The truth: I do enjoy the Kapow pull, you must own a gun. I do, I say that when I go to the range to shoot clay pigeons.

    Fun sport, isn’t it? I hear that when the Universe Shattering Evidence ™ comes down from Darth Zullo, angry birthers are going to “hunt [us] down like dogs.” The ability to expertly wield a shotgun could come in handy.

  322. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: that’s like me saying you need to prove she was not.

    Can’t prove a negative dude. You are asserting she was a member of Subud, show me proof that she was. The onus is on YOU to prove this.

  323. The truth says:

    Crustacean: Fun sport, isn’t it?I hear that when the Universe Shattering Evidence ™ comes down from Darth Zullo, angry birthers are going to “hunt [us] down like dogs.”The ability to expertly wield a shotgun could come in handy.

    You are correct, it is a fun sport. However, I don’t think violence is the answer and if Zullo said that he is a jackass. He has been shattering the universe for years blah blah blah. The most you would get out of me would be I told you so. I have stated if I find out I am wrong I will apologize but until then I will continue my research that I believe in.

  324. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: Actually if you would bother to read my comments I contend that Dunham lied on the BC, how would the sate of Hawaii know that he didn’t need to sign the BC? Wow.

    You’re missing the point. Barack Obama was born in Honolulu at Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital on August 4, 1961. It doesn’t matter if Obama, Sr was the father or not. It doesn’t matter if Ann Dunham lied. ALL THAT MATTERS is the record that Barack Obama was born on August 4, 1961 in Hawaii.

  325. Sef says:

    The truth: I do enjoy the Kapow pull, you must own a gun. I do, I say that when I go to the range to shoot clay pigeons.

    Is there a cookbook for preparing clay pigeons? Sort of like “Wash. Biol. Serv.”?

  326. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: The most you would get out of me would be I told you so. I have stated if I find out I am wrong I will apologize but until then I will continue my research that I believe in.

    There is a lot of research on this site, but I fear it will not hold your attention like your fantasies do. You are not capable of learning the truth, you are too smitten with conspiracy. It drips off of you.

    http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/1256479/127368428/stock-vector-a-vector-illustration-of-cartoon-wolf-salivating-while-making-evil-plans-127368428.jpg

  327. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: I believe the father of Obama is Muhammad Subuh, the founder of Subud. Here is a link to his picture that is believed to be legitimate;

    I’ll ask you again, are you on drugs? This is like the 4th person birthers have claimed is Obama’s father. Again so what purpose would there be to claim he was born in Kenya? Not all black people look the same.

    Do you have any proof that Ann Dunham ever met Subuh? Also Subuh would have had to been 60 in order to be Obama’s father (he was born in 1901). You wonder why we laugh at you and ridicule the stupidity of birthers? You’re the exact reason.

    A great number of other people were in san francisco during that time period why focus on Subud?

  328. The truth says:

    bgansel9: Can’t prove a negative dude. You are asserting she was a member of Subud, show me proof that she was. The onus is on YOU to prove this.

    trust me, I am working on it, you will know when I find it. Who else has made this connection with her? I never found the connection between Dunham and Subuh (city and year) until last week, I didn’t read it on some blog, search the web and see for yourself, this is the only site that has it as far as I know. I wasn’t going to say anything but everyone here assumed I was doing the same research as everyone else and I am not. By the way, yes I have seen the birther report site but I have never commented on it, it is the same story repeated over and over. They may have known about Subuh but never made the connection in San Francisco.

  329. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: When did I state he was born in Kenya?

    Scroll up one of your original claims was that he claimed he was born in Kenya, this was false.

  330. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Hate America? Is that your response to what I have found? I hate corruption at the expense of Americans. Oh wait, you believe that corruption is not possible my bad.

    Telling such easily debunked lies as you have is a form of corruption. So why do you hate America?

  331. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: I didn’t read it on some blog, search the web and see for yourself, this is the only site that has it as far as I know. I wasn’t going to say anything but everyone here assumed I was doing the same research as everyone else and I am not.

    Your penchant for making mass assumptions before having any proof makes me believe that thing you call RESEARCH is more accurately described as dementia.

  332. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: I would assume your definition of crazy is someone who does not agree with you?

    No his definition of crazy is one who believes things that make absolutely no sense, cannot actually be proven bust still spouts them anyway.

  333. bgansel9 says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: No his definition of crazy is one who believes things that make absolutely no sense, cannot actually be proven bust still spouts them anyway.

    Her – otherwise, this is exactly correct.

  334. Crustacean says:

    The truth: I don’t think violence is the answer and if Zullo said that he is a jackass.

    Zullo didn’t say that (to my knowledge, at least). Just a commenter at a birther blog who is dealing with anger issues. I certainly don’t expect any violence to come from any of this, partly because I don’t think there really is any Universe Shattering Evidence ™.

    You’ve got more guts than the vast majority of birthers, who choose to hide in their echo chambers. I tip my hat to you for the simple fact that you have come here to state your case. Unfortunately for you, it’s a case that has no legs.

  335. The truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: I’ll ask you again, are you on drugs?This is like the 4th person birthers have claimed is Obama’s father.Again so what purpose would there be to claim he was born in Kenya?Not all black people look the same.

    Do you have any proof that Ann Dunham ever met Subuh?Also Subuh would have had to been 60 in order to be Obama’s father (he was born in 1901).You wonder why we laugh at you and ridicule the stupidity of birthers?You’re the exact reason.

    A great number of other people were in san francisco during that time period why focus on Subud?

    So you are telling me that some guy that thinks he is the direct representative of God comes along with a new cool/hip message and some rebellious young girl dreaming of life outside her strict parents wouldn’t have sex with him? Maybe not, but I see the possibility. People do not always adhere to what some would consider normal behavior. Yet, you do not see it as unusual that in 1960 a white girl has sex with a black man? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

  336. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: If I am crazy, explain the connection between Dunham and Indonesia, also her and Fuddy both belonging to some cult of 20,000 worldwide I have never heard of. Another coincidence? Seems like a lot of them.

    There is no proof that Ann Dunham ever belonged to the Subud group which you claim is a “cult”. How do you explain your adherence to the birther cult? Ann Dunham was an anthropologist she traveled extensively and married an indonesian that’s her connection. Do you just mix and match when it comes to what you believe. It’s like a game of guess who with you guys.

  337. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: You didn’t explain the connection with the cult, who is the idiot? Only answer what is comfortable?

    There is no connection with the subuh organization. You are making the inference all on your own.

  338. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: God comes along with a new cool/hip message and some rebellious young girl dreaming of life outside her strict parents wouldn’t have sex with him? Maybe not, but I see the possibility.

    You don’t treat it as a possibility, you treat it as fact, and build another story upon it and then build another story upon that other story… and so on, and so on, and so on… You obviously never went to college, or if you did, you must have flunked out. You don’t understand how to do “RESEARCH” at all.

  339. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: There are INS documents that suspected he was not married, he almost did not get an extended visa because it was known he was also married to someone else. Do I need to provide that link also? I am sure it has been on this site before. And, if Obama Sr was not his father that means that Dunham lied on the BC, for what reason? That in turn makes the entire BC information suspect doesn’t it?

    Relevance? How exactly does it mean Dunham lied on the BC? There is no proof to support your claim that Obama Dr wasn’t his father. Wow so even if she lied how does that negate him being President? This would be a fraud done against him not by him. So it’s not unusual for a mother to put a father’s name on a BC that may not have been the father? Stop the presses. You still haven’t proven your claim.

  340. The truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Quote)
    #

    If I am a member of the birther cult, then that would make you a member of the Obot cult?

    The truth: If I am crazy, explain the connection between Dunham and

  341. bob says:

    The truth: Actually if you would bother to read my comments I contend that Dunham lied on the BC, how would the sate of Hawaii know that he didn’t need to sign the BC? Wow.

    I’ve read your comments. There is absolutely no proof that Dunham lied on the birth certificate. You deliberately refuse to acknowledge the validity of the State of Hawaii’s official documents because you are an America-hating seditionist.

  342. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Yes that is correct, it is fraudulent if Obama Sr is not the real father. Only Dunham needed to sign it he did not.

    How does this negate that President Obama is the legal and lawful President? What you’re describing would be a fraud done against the President not by him.

  343. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: If you wish to discuss the violation of the Constitution we will need another thread. I believe there remains issues regardingviolations against the constitution waiting for the supreme courts decision. But like I said, that’s another thread.

    The supreme court has already decided on this multiple times, twice when they swore him in. Several times when they dismissed cases during conference. There is no there, there kiddo.

  344. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: Yet, you do not see it as unusual that in 1960 a white girl has sex with a black man? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

    Hmmmm, let see.. let’s say that I’m a young woman of about 18 and I have (for some unknown reason) the choice of a virile young 25 year old African college guy I met at school or an old wrinkly Malaysian who is travelling the world trying to push his spiritual views. I think I’m going to go with the young virile dude.

    Remember, I am a “Her”, I do have the ability to place myself in this situation.

  345. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: I have placed Dunham in the same city in the same year as this nut job

    Nutjob? You know virtually nothing about Subuh to even claim such. By your own admission you only heard of him a few months ago. The one who is being a nutjob is you. You keep proving it. So she was in San Francisco a few days and you have yet to establish they were there during the same time. San Francisco has about 16 million visitors a year in 1960 there were about 740,000 people living there. So you have essentially a 1 in 300k plus chance of them meeting. That’s a stretch even for you.

  346. The truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: The supreme court has already decided on this multiple times, twice when they swore him in.Several times when they dismissed cases during conference.There is no there, there kiddo.

    FYI junior, the supreme court is busy determining other violations of the administration so don’t throw the constitution around as a reason Obama is president, that is irrelevant to the thread. I was simply responding to comment directed at me. I did not bring up the constitution someone else did, Hunt elsewhere.

  347. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Let me see, back in the 1960′s when she was exposed to it there was probably less than 5,000 members in the world.

    Again you’re making a claim for which you have no proof. There is no proof she was exposed to subuh or even knew him. You wonder why you’re ridiculed.

  348. The truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Nutjob?You know virtually nothing about Subuh to even claim such.By your own admission you only heard of him a few months ago.The one who is being a nutjob is you.You keep proving it.So she was in San Francisco a few days and you have yet to establish they were there during the same time.San Francisco has about 16 million visitors a year in 1960 there were about 740,000 people living there.So you have essentially a 1 in 300k plus chance of them meeting.That’s a stretch even for you.

    Oh now you want to discuss chance? Hahaha, that’s a good one. I have plainly shown the odds of all these connections and they are not in your favor.

  349. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: the supreme court is busy determining other violations of the administration so don’t throw the constitution around as a reason Obama is president,

    Gosh, the court just hasn’t had the chance to make a decision, huh? LMAO

    http://www.supremecourt.gov/Search.aspx?FileName=/docketfiles/12a606.htm

  350. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: Oh now you want to discuss chance? Hahaha, that’s a good one. I have plainly shown the odds of all these connections and they are not in your favor

    A college professor would fail you for that.

  351. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: That is a crack smoking response, that’s like me saying you need to prove she was not.

    No it is a crack smoking response to claim people need to prove negatives for you. You’re the one making the accusation that it was 1. a cult and 2. that she belonged to it. The onus is on you to prove it. You are assuming some guilt where none exists. The American justice system works on the assumption that the person accused is innocent. It’s up to you to prove your crazy claims. That you don’t understand it shows that you must be high on some illicit substance.

  352. Jim says:

    The truth: I do enjoy the Kapow pull, you must own a gun. I do, I say that when I go to the range to shoot clay pigeons.

    If your shooting is anything like your research skills I’d say them clay pigeons are safe.

    Ba-da-boom

  353. The truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Nutjob?You know virtually nothing about Subuh to even claim such.By your own admission you only heard of him a few months ago.The one who is being a nutjob is you.You keep proving it.So she was in San Francisco a few days and you have yet to establish they were there during the same time.San Francisco has about 16 million visitors a year in 1960 there were about 740,000 people living there.So you have essentially a 1 in 300k plus chance of them meeting.That’s a stretch even for you.

    Your IQ keeps getting lower and lower. You call me a nutjob and you have known me for three days, I studied him for months. Once again you are talking out of both sides of your mouth!

  354. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Actually if you would bother to read my comments I contend that Dunham lied on the BC, how would the sate of Hawaii know that he didn’t need to sign the BC? Wow.

    You could claim this about any president then. How do you know that Barbara Bush didn’t hook up with someone in Mexico and have George W? How do you know any Presidents parents were their parents. There is a possibility they all lied. This isn’t logical thinking on your part. You’re making an assumption based on speculation.

  355. The truth says:

    Jim: If your shooting is anything like your research skills I’d say them clay pigeons are safe.

    Ba-da-boom

    Good one. I wish the best for you on the range also.

  356. bgansel9 says:

    I’m done poking a stick at the crack smoker. Nothing to see here, he’s just demented and lonely in his fantasies. Bye lonely crack smoker.

  357. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: The most you would get out of me would be I told you so. I have stated if I find out I am wrong I will apologize but until then I will continue my research that I believe in.

    You’ve been proven wrong on every claim thus far, you have yet to apologize. Why is that exactly?

  358. bgansel9 says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: You’re making an assumption based on speculation.

    Only one? All I’ve seen is assumptions and speculation. I’ve even seen speculation built on assumptions which were built on assumptions.

  359. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    bgansel9: Her – otherwise, this is exactly correct.

    my apologies.

  360. RanTalbott says:

    Sef: Is there a cookbook for preparing clay pigeons?

    Not if you’re good at it: any recipe would have to start with the use of a Shop Vac.

  361. The truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: No it is a crack smoking response to claim people need to prove negatives for you.You’re the one making the accusation that it was 1. a cult and 2. that she belonged to it.The onus is on you to prove it.You are assuming some guilt where none exists.The American justice system works on the assumption that the person accused is innocent.It’s up to you to prove your crazy claims.That you don’t understand it shows that you must be high on some illicit substance.

    Are you a law expert? Maybe a top notch attorney? If you are, shouldn’t you be reviewing a case in court? If it is not a cult, what is it? Oh, maybe I offended you because you are a member? Have you bothered to study his claims?

  362. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: So you are telling me that some guy that thinks he is the direct representative of God comes along with a new cool/hip message and some rebellious young girl dreaming of life outside her strict parents wouldn’t have sex with him?

    Is that what you did? It sounds like you’re projecting your own beliefs off onto the President’s mother. Do you always slander the dead? Again you’ve shown no proof that they ever actually met.

    The truth: Yet, you do not see it as unusual that in 1960 a white girl has sex with a black man? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

    WTF are you even talking about? Again no proof she met Subuh and now you’re projecting your own personal problems off onto other people. I find it funny you claim that others are talking out both sides of their mouths. Project much?

  363. The truth says:

    bgansel9:
    I’m done poking a stick at the crack smoker. Nothing to see here, he’s just demented and lonely in his fantasies. Bye lonely crack smoker.

    See ya. Maybe Obama is free to share his drugs with you?

  364. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: If I am a member of the birther cult, then that would make you a member of the Obot cult?

    The truth: If I am crazy, explain the connection between Dunham and

    Between dunham and blank? Yeah you just explained it no connection. Again obot has no meaning. Like most birthers you think that people who say Obama is legally and lawfully the president must some how give their full throated support for him and his policies when it’s not even the case. The difference is I can tell fact from fiction you can’t.

  365. The truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Is that what you did?It sounds like you’re projecting your own beliefs off onto the President’s mother.Do you always slander the dead?Again you’ve shown no proof that they ever actually met.

    WTF are you even talking about?Again no proof she met Subuh and now you’re projecting your own personal problems off onto other people.I find it funny you claim that others are talking out both sides of their mouths.Project much?

    Slander? It was a hypothetical comment just like the one you made stating it wasn’t possible.

  366. bgansel9 says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: my apologies.

    Accepted (thanks) but not necessary.

  367. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: See ya. Maybe Obama is free to share his drugs with you?

    I don’t do drugs, that’s your thing.

  368. The truth says:

    Goodnight people. It was a real pleasure getting called names and being slammed by some of the best. Great work. I will retire now and do more research. I will not be taking a plane anywhere, sorry.

  369. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: FYI junior, the supreme court is busy determining other violations of the administration

    Lol You’re saying the supreme court can’t do more than one thing at a time? You do know they handle more than one case in a given year right? The supreme court is looking into nothing in regards to “violations” it shows you have no idea what the purpose of the Supreme Court actually is. They have turned down multiple birther cases.

  370. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Oh now you want to discuss chance? Hahaha, that’s a good one. I have plainly shown the odds of all these connections and they are not in your favor.

    You’re seriously a performance artist. A city of 700k plus and two people meeting during a period of time where one was there a few days and which you’ve shown no evidence they were there during the same days in question in a city of 231 square miles and you want to quote odds? Mathematically the odds are against you crazy pants.

  371. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Your IQ keeps getting lower and lower. You call me a nutjob and you have known me for three days, I studied him for months. Once again you are talking out of both sides of your mouth!

    I’m not the one having problems accepting reality or believing in crazy things you can’t prove. Yes my clinical opinion is that you’re crazy. How many days have you known Subuh to claim he’s a nutjob? You “studied” but never met him. Again you’re using cliches without actually knowing what they mean.

  372. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    bgansel9: Only one? All I’ve seen is assumptions and speculation. I’ve even seen speculation built on assumptions which were built on assumptions.

    I dont think I said only one. Every thing he’s said so far has been assumptions he’s pulled out of his rectum.

  373. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Slander? It was a hypothetical comment just like the one you made stating it wasn’t possible.

    You’re not claiming it’s a hypothetical you’re making claims about his mother you actually seem to believe. So you’re basically telling us your mother is free game. So can you ask her if I can have that coat hanger back I lent to her before you were born?

  374. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Are you a law expert? Maybe a top notch attorney? If you are, shouldn’t you be reviewing a case in court? If it is not a cult, what is it? Oh, maybe I offended you because you are a member? Have you bothered to study his claims?

    What in your mind makes it a cult? Considering you’ve just learned about it recently but then you just claimed it’s been months make up your mind.

  375. bgansel9 says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: You’re making an assumption based on speculation.

    “an assumption” usually means one to me. 😛

  376. Majority Will says:

    Ignore the troll.

  377. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The truth: Goodnight people. It was a real pleasure getting called names and being slammed by some of the best. Great work. I will retire now and do more research. I will not be taking a plane anywhere, sorry.

    You mean you’ll go back to sticking your thumb up your butt, not admitting you’re wrong and then looking for more lies to tell. Brave sir robin indeed

  378. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    bgansel9: “an assumption” usually means one to me.

    Okay assumptions sorry I must have dropped the plural after all the times of having to say it.

  379. bgansel9 says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Okay assumptions sorry I must have dropped the plural after all the times of having to say it.

    S’okay! 😉

  380. bgansel9 says:

    The truth: It was a real pleasure getting called names and being slammed by some of the best.

    I wasn’t calling you names, I was telling you the truth. You ARE an idiot. You should seek out some help for that. Rehab might help.

  381. Majority Will says:

    bgansel9: I wasn’t calling you names, I was telling you the truth. You ARE an idiot. You should seek out some help for that. Rehab might help.

    You speak the truth. Isn’t irony great! 🙂

  382. bgansel9 says:

    Majority Will: You speak the truth. Isn’t irony great!

    I hadn’t even noticed that. LOL (I just locked my keys in the car, I’m a little distracted.).

  383. Rickey says:

    It should come as no surprise that the troll has completely mischaracterized what Stanley Ann Dunham’s biography says about her trip to San Francisco. He writes that she “ran away” in “1959/1960” but it is clear that the trip with a male classmate took place no later than the fall of 1959, nearly two years before her son was born. The troll then claims that the book says that she “vanished” shortly after the trip to San Francisco. But in fact the book says “Whatever the case, sometime shortly after graduation in 1960, Stanley Ann vanished.”

    The fact is that after the jaunt to San Francisco she returned home and completed her senior year at Mercer Island High School. The reference to her “vanishing” is a description of her relationship with her high school friends. They were going off to college and she was being forced to move to Hawaii with her parents, and she reacted by cutting off contact with her old friends. As the author writes, “Apart from a few fleeting encounters, few of her friends ever saw or heard from her again.”

    If Stanley Ann Dunham met Muhammad Subuh in San Francisco – a highly dubious possibility – the meeting took place at least 20 months before President Obama was born.

    So “The Truth” is actually a dishonest troll. What a shock!

  384. Keith says:

    The truth: 1. I do not believe that Barack Obama Sr is the real father of the president.

    You have zero evidence for that belief. Even if it were true, what would it matter. Would it change the either the date or location of his birth?

    2. I do not believe that Ann Dunham and Obama were legally married, it appears they didn’t even live together.

    There is actually some evidence for that. They did get married, however, was it a legal marriage. Obama Sr. was apparently still married to his first wife who was still in Africa.

    I realize that would not void the BC, it is a statement.

    You got that right. Since when does not being legally married prevent someone from fathering a child?

    By all accounts, Obama Sr. was a bit of a bounder. He got an underage girl pregnant. He wasn’t the first, and won’t be the last. At least he acknowledged his paternity, gave the child his name, and married the mother (or at least went through the motions of marriage).

    None of that changes the date of birth or the location of birth. The behavior of Obama Sr. has nothing to do with the eligibility or non-eligibility of Obama Jr. (beyond participating in the conception, of course).

    3. This is what renders me to believe the BC is fraudulent.

    Let me get this straight: Obama Sr. acknowledged Obama Jr. as his son, whether he was the ‘real’ father or not, and married the mother, whether it was a bigamous marriage or not, and you think that is somehow an indication that the State of Hawai’i and/or the hospital and/or hundreds if not thousands of people thought that it would be a good idea to prepare a fraudulent BC?

    What do either of those conditions have to do with the birth certificate?

    What do either of those conditions have to do with anything at all?

  385. Keith says:

    The truth: I know the hard core believers will just call me names and say I have no proof they slept together, to that I say, you cant prove Obama Sr did either.

    Well I for one say who cares one way or another.

    Obama Sr. acknowledged Obama Jr. as his son. Doing so meant he acknowledged having sex with an underage girl. Whether he was ‘covering’ for some one else or not, even if the sex was in a week long orgy with 20 other men (I am NOT implying that that is the case), makes no difference to the date of the birth or the location of the birth.

    The only thing on the BC that is of ANY interest to Presidential eligibility is the birth date and the birth location. Period.

  386. Keith says:

    The truth: When did I state he was born in Kenya?

    If you don’t think he was born in Kenya then where do you think he was born?

    If you think he was born in the U.S. then why are you fascinated with his birth certificate?

    Citizen at birth :: Natural Born Citizen

    14th Amendment:

    1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

  387. Keith says:

    The truth: There are INS documents that suspected he was not married, he almost did not get an extended visa because it was known he was also married to someone else. Do I need to provide that link also? I am sure it has been on this site before. And, if Obama Sr was not his father that means that Dunham lied on the BC, for what reason? That in turn makes the entire BC information suspect doesn’t it?

    Still pressing this silliness?

    Whenever did “not being married” or “being in a bigamous marriage” prevented some one from having unprotected sex and getting their unmarried sexual partner pregnant?

    Where does the Birth Certificate have a box that says:

    “I, the father, am legally married to the mother, and if I am wrong about that, consider my son (or daughter) ineligible to be President of the United States, and in fact a muslim, NAZI, communist, traitor. So help me Allah.”?

  388. Whatever4 says:

    The truth: Let me see, back in the 1960′swhen she was exposed to it there was probably less than 5,000 members in the world. Why would it be mentioned in a book about her? Oh let me guess, just a coincidence, the New York Times writer that wrote the book just embellished it and threw the word Subud

    You seem to have missed my remarks upthread. Please respond. I have the book and I don’t see where it says Dunham was a member of Subud.

  389. Whatever4 says:

    The truth: That is a crack smoking response, that’s like me saying you need to prove she was not. Did you read anything about him? He admits knowing her? Try connecting the dots, how many coincidences do you believe in? Buy a lottery ticket, the odds are better you will win than I am wrong about her.,

    Where does Subuh admit to knowing Dunham?

  390. Keith says:

    The truth: So what you are saying is that a WORLD WIDE membership of 20,000 (that is a high estimate) would be a natural thing for them to both join?

    This is a logical fallacy known as the ‘complex question’.

    (also known as trick question or fallacy of many questions): a question that, in order to be valid, requires the truth of another question that has not been established. For example, “Which color dress is Mary wearing—blue or red?” may be fallacious because it restricts the possible responses to a blue or red dress. Unless it has previously been established that the dress is one of those two colors, the question is fallacious because it could be neither of them’. (quote from Wikipedia).

    Another, more familiar example is “when did you stop beating your wife?”.

    In this case you have NOT established that Ms. Dunham was ever a member of Subud.

    The fact that she knew members does not make her a member. I know Jews and Muslims, yet I am neither. I bet you know lots of people that are members of groups that you are not a member of.

    called ‘begging the question’.

  391. Whatever4 says:

    bgansel9: Hmmmm, let see.. let’s say that I’m a young woman of about 18 and I have (for some unknown reason) the choice of a virile young 25 year old African college guy I met at school or an old wrinkly Malaysian who is travelling the world trying to push his spiritual views. I think I’m going to go with the young virile dude.

    Remember, I am a “Her”, I do have the ability to place myself in this situation.

    Not to mention that Subuh was traveling with his wife, daughter, and several friends, on a 15+ country trip meeting with followers, and never had the reputation of sleeping around. He spent only a few days in San Francisco. Plus Dunham was only in San Francisco for several days. (If I get to it, I’ll try to narrow down the time frame in the next few days.)

  392. Keith says:

    Keith: I know Jews and Muslims, yet I am neither.

    Sorry I messed up the markup on the end of that post above.

    Also I forgot to mention that an old roommate of mine grew up next door to the head of the Mormon church. Yet I am not a Mormon either!

  393. Keith says:

    The truth: I never found the connection between Dunham and Subuh (city and year) until last week

    Population of San Fransisco in 1960: 740,316

    Did they all join Subud?

  394. Whatever4 says:

    Added: the point of Subuh’s 1959/1960 journey was to attend the first International Subud Congress in London, UK. They left London October 15, 1959 and returned to Indonesia by way of India. From his autobiography at your link:

    This time we left Indonesia for Australia. From Australia we traveled to New Zealand, from New Zealand to Los Angeles, from Los Angeles to San Francisco, from San Francisco to Mexico, from Mexico to Columbia, from Columbia to Peru, from Peru to Chile, from Chile to Argentina, from Argentina to Brazil, from Brazil to Venezuela and from Venezuela to Washington DC. Then from Washington DC to New York, from New York to Chicago and from Chicago to Miami. From America we returned once again to Europe and visited Holland, Germany, France, Austria and Switzerland among other countries, and finally we went to London for the first International Subud Congress.

    With all that traveling, staying in the homes of followers, Subuh would have been in San Francisco in the Spring of 1959. Dunham’s visit to San Francisco was either the Fall of 1959 or the Spring of 1960, according to the book A Singular Woman.

    The timelines don’t match up at all. Sabah did not have the opportunity to meet Dunham in San Francisco.

  395. bgansel9 says:

    Whatever4: Not to mention that Subuh was traveling with his wife, daughter, and several friends, on a 15+ country trip meeting with followers, and never had the reputation of sleeping around. He spent only a few days in San Francisco. Plus Dunham was only in San Francisco for several days.

    Good points.

  396. BillTheCat says:

    Man, between the ironically named The Truth in this thread and dim bulb TPPTruthSquash in the other big thread, this place has become quite the comedy fest 🙂 Just when you thought the birther loonytoon barrel was empty – BAM!

  397. BillTheCat says:

    The truth:
    I will retire now and do more research.

    So, you’ll be on the internet all night then? Say hi to InfoWars and Brietbart for us.

  398. bgansel9 says:

    Keith: This is a logical fallacy known as the ‘complex question’.

    The Truth has obviously never studied “Reasoning and Critical Thinking”. Something tells me it would be much better time spent than “researching” conspiracy sites.

  399. The Magic M says:

    Keith: This is a logical fallacy known as the ‘complex question’.
    […]
    Another, more familiar example is “when did you stop beating your wife?”.
    […]
    called ‘begging the question’.

    I think there are differences between these three:

    “When did you stop beating your wife?” is a loaded question (answering it either way implicitly answers another unasked question, “did you ever beat your wife?”, the same way).

    ‘Begging the question’ would be providing an incorrect (exaggerated) alternative – “Are you in favour of the Second Amendment or would you rather have the government kill you tomorrow?”.

  400. Keith says:

    The Magic M: I think there are differences between these three:

    “When did you stop beating your wife?” is a loaded question (answering it either way implicitly answers another unasked question, “did you ever beat your wife?”, the same way).

    ‘Begging the question’ would be providing an incorrect (exaggerated) alternative – “Are you in favour of the Second Amendment or would you rather have the government kill you tomorrow?”.

    You are correct about it being a loaded question, but ‘When did you stop beating your wife?’ does assume the premises that you have indeed beat your wife at some point in time and that you continued the practice for some period of time. That is a ‘complex question’.

    The ‘begging the question’ phrase was a typo. Left in by mistake after an edit that removed the rest of the gumph that would have put it into context. While ‘begging the question’ is similar to ‘complex question’ it didn’t really belong in my post and I tried unsuccessfully to remove it. My bad.

  401. American Mzungu says:

    bgansel9: The Truth has obviously never studied “Reasoning and Critical Thinking”. Something tells me it would be much better time spent than “researching” conspiracy sites.

    He probably hasn’t studied reasoning or critical thinking, I’m not sure it would be a good idea. He’s not interested in critical thinking or rational debate. He’s interested in pushing our buttons. He might learn about fallacies in argument to better push our buttons, but not to develop ideas through critical thinking or debate to approximate “the truth.”

  402. Suranis says:

    I love the fact that because a woman has sex with and subsequently marries ONE black man, suddenly she was having sex with every black guy that was passing through America within 100 miles of her.

  403. Jim says:

    The Truth must be one of Zullo’s henchmen…or maybe even Zullo himself…trying to desperately save his fake investigation and keep the scam (not investigation) going.

    HI MIKE! 😀

  404. American Mzungu says:

    Jim: The Truth must be one of Zullo’s henchmen…or maybe even Zullo himself…trying to desperately save his fake investigation and keep the scam (not investigation) going

    Interesting hypothesis. Could you elaborate?

  405. Majority Will says:

    Jim:
    The Truth must be one of Zullo’s henchmen…or maybe even Zullo himself…trying to desperately save his fake investigation and keep the scam (not investigation) going.

    HI MIKE!

    Based solely on that bizarre birther bigot’s idiotic standards for credible evidence, that would be entirely plausible and probable.

  406. Majority Will says:

    American Mzungu: He probably hasn’t studied reasoning or critical thinking,I’m not sure it would be a good idea.He’s not interested in critical thinking or rational debate.He’s interested in pushing our buttons.He might learn about fallacies in argument to better push our buttons, but not to developideas through critical thinking or debate to approximate “the truth.”

    Spreading hate based, ignorant smears regardless of rationality or credibility seems like a fairly common modus operandi for many birther bigots.

  407. Jim says:

    American Mzungu: Interesting hypothesis.Could you elaborate?

    birther logic! Mr Reilly stated that Zullo and the CCP regularly monitor and post on birther and anti-birther sites and here comes “The Truth” desperately trying to make something, anything, seem nefarious. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if Zullo used us to try out different theories before releasing them to the birthers.

  408. The Magic M says:

    Suranis: I love the fact that because a woman has sex with and subsequently marries ONE black man, suddenly she was having sex with every black guy that was passing through America within 100 miles of her.

    Those good old days when every other article on WND was smearing Obama’s mother as some kind of “race traitor” who slept with every black man she could get her hands on. Back in those days, the racism and misogyny of the birther movement was much more visible than today (where their rejection of Cruz, Jindal, Rubio and even Santorum as “ineligible” might fool some people into believing birtherism never was about race).

    That specific part of birtherism showed that whoever pulled the strings in the background had a clear strategy – not “get the American people to wake up” but “energize the conservative voter base so Romney would have a chance to win”.

    I think that the main reason why so many mutually incompatible theories float around in Birtherstan is that their handlers just want to cover all bases – they have something for those who would not vote for the son of a black Communist (FM Davis), those who would not vote for the son of a black Muslim (Malcolm X), those who would not vote for the son of a white girl who dared to date a black man, those who would not vote for someone with a foreign parent (Vattelism), those who would not vote for someone who might be a secret Muslim etc.

    It’s the Sony principle – it doesn’t matter if you have ten different products which have nearly zero difference and cost nearly the same – as long as that makes sure nobody buys from the competition because he doesn’t find exactly what he’s looking for in your product line.

  409. Rickey says:

    Whatever4:
    Added: the point of Subuh’s 1959/1960 journey was to attend the first International Subud Congress in London, UK. They left London October 15, 1959 and returned to Indonesia by way of India.

    With all that traveling, staying in the homes of followers, Subuh would have been in San Francisco in the Spring of 1959. Dunham’s visit to San Francisco was either the Fall of 1959 or the Spring of 1960, according to the book A Singular Woman.

    The timelines don’t match up at all. Sabah did not have the opportunity to meet Dunham in San Francisco.

    Good points. The time frame is confirmed at the Subud website, which shows that the first International Subud Congress was held in Coombe Springs, UK in 1959.

    http://www.subud.org/start.php?mcat=4&scat=9

    From his autobiography we know that Subuh visited thirteen different countries on three different continents after he left San Francisco. His visit to San Francisco occurred at the beginning of his journey, so he could not possibly been there at the same time as Stanley Ann Dunham.

  410. bgansel9 says:

    Suranis: I love the fact that because a woman has sex with and subsequently marries ONE black man, suddenly she was having sex with every black guy that was passing through America within 100 miles of her.

    Are we sure they were all within 100 miles?

  411. Jim says:

    bgansel9: Are we sure they were all within 100 miles?

    Much further she’d have been in the middle of the ocean! 😀

  412. Crustacean says:

    Keith: “I, the father, am legally married to the mother, and if I am wrong about that, consider my son (or daughter) ineligible to be President of the United States, and in fact a muslim, NAZI, communist, traitor. So help me Allah.”?

    Keith, I love reading your comments and all, but I’m afraid I’m going too have to report you to Mr. Soros on this one. I just hope he doesn’t dock your pay. You know darned well that this information, contained in the Double-Dog Super Secret Mystery Box on President Obama’s original birth certificate, was never to leave the Circle of Trust. But you just had to go and broadcast it to the world, didn’t you! What are we gonna do if Oberleutnant Grand Martial Zullo discovers this? Our goose will be cooked. I hope you’re proud of yourself!

    [seriously, that was just too funny not to give it a bump 🙂 ]

  413. The Truth says:

    I am sure I have been missed, not much action demeaning me today. Here is more information for anyone who is actually curious;
    1, Subuh was in San Francisco also in 1958, this shows he was there multiple times not just 1959/1960

    http://www.subudstories.info/bapak/talks/vol-1/vol1-36.html

    You will all say so what, but not so fast.

    In Obama’s own words;
    ‘I was only sixteen then,’ she told us as we entered the elevator. ‘I’d just been accepted to the University of Chicago – Gramps hadn’t yet told me I couldn’t go – and I was there for the summer, working as an au pair. It was the first time I’d ever been really on my own. Gosh, I felt like such an adult. And when I saw this film, I thought it was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen.'”

    Guess who was in Chicago when Dunham was 16?

    http://www.subudbooks.net/bapak-s-talks-volume-3.html

    Another coincidence?

    And here are a couple articles from someone who dislikes all corrupt government officials, Bush included ;). Interesting.

    https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?10566-Indonesian-Subud-cult-may-have-had-a-major-follower-(other-than-Obama-s-mother)

    https://sites.google.com/site/thesecretnests/home/stanley-ann-dunham-obama-soetoro-s-cia-colleagues

    Where does all this lead? To be continued.

  414. American Mzungu says:

    The Truth: Guess who was in Chicago when Dunham was 16?

    Richard J. Daley

    Coincidence? I think not.

  415. bob says:

    The Truth:
    I am sure I have been missed, not much action demeaning me today.

    You are a lying seditionist who hates America.

    Happy now?

  416. American Mzungu says:

    The Truth: Where does all this lead?

    FEMA Camp 26? A federal judgeship? A date with Lindsay Lohan? A visit by the Secret Service? Nowwhere? Moderation by Doc C?

  417. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: I am sure I have been missed

    Not really, like most birthers you came in here made some false claims got refuted and scampered off.

    The Truth: 1, Subuh was in San Francisco also in 1958, this shows he was there multiple times not just 1959/1960

    So? For a few days you have yet to show that Ann Dunham and Subuh were in San Francisco during the same time period. Let alone you haven’t even narrowed down they were even in the same city block at the same time. San Francisco is a large city of over 200 square miles.

    The Truth: Guess who was in Chicago when Dunham was 16?

    So? Chicago is also a large city of 234 square miles consisting of about 3.5 million people back then. You haven’t shown they were in the same block during the same exact time period to prove they had ever met.

    The Truth: And here are a couple articles from someone who dislikes all corrupt government officials, Bush included ;). Interesting.

    Who cares? How does what some crazy fringe person says prove any of your crazy nutty points? So what have we learned? Your “research” consists of taking disparate points and stringing them together as if they had some connection. This is desperation on your part.

  418. American Mzungu says:

    The Truth: To be continued.

    Why?

  419. American Mzungu says:

    The Truth: Interesting.

    Not really.

  420. American Mzungu says:

    The Truth: You will all say so what

    YES WE WILL.

  421. The Truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Not really, like most birthers you came in here made some false claims got refuted and scampered off.

    So?For a few days you have yet to show that Ann Dunham and Subuh were in San Francisco during the same time period.Let alone you haven’t even narrowed down they were even in the same city block at the same time.San Francisco is a large city of over 200 square miles.

    So?Chicago is also a large city of 234 square miles consisting of about 3.5 million people back then.You haven’t shown they were in the same block during the same exact time period to prove they had ever met.

    Who cares?How does what some crazy fringe person says prove any of your crazy nutty points?So what have we learned?Your “research” consists of taking disparate points and stringing them together as if they had some connection.This is desperation on your part.

    We shall see.

  422. American Mzungu says:

    The Truth: I am sure I have been missed

    Like my hemorrhoids

  423. RanTalbott says:

    The Truth: Guess who was in Chicago when Dunham was 16?

    Guess who wasn’t in Dunham until she was 18?

    The Truth: Where does all this lead?

    Well, we know where it came from.

    Let me guess: about 0215 today, on your way home from the bar, you were knocked off your high horse by a beam of light. You’ve converted to Subud, and are going to tell us that Obama is the second Virgin Birf, having been conceived by whatever deity or deities they worship in the image of his/their servant Subuh.

  424. American Mzungu says:

    The Truth: We shall see.

    No we won’t.

  425. The Truth says:

    American Mzungu: FEMA Camp 26?A federal judgeship?A date with Lindsay Lohan?A visit by the Secret Service?Nowwhere?Moderation by Doc C?

    Wow, putting words in my mouth? I never made any of those comments. Moderation for providing information on who was in the same city at the same time? Not to mention over a thousand miles apart, in two different years. If there is moderation it should be for slanderous name calling that I never start, I retaliate once insulted first..

  426. The Truth says:

    American Mzungu: No we won’t.

    Real intelligent responses. Enjoyable reading not to mention very mature.

  427. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: Real intelligent responses. Enjoyable reading not to mention very mature.

    Nothing you’ve said thus far has shown you possess intelligence.

  428. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: We shall see.

    We have seen. You’re thoroughly incompetent and impotent.

  429. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: Wow, putting words in my mouth? I never made any of those comments. Moderation for providing information on who was in the same city at the same time? Not to mention over a thousand miles apart, in two different years. If there is moderation it should be for slanderous name calling that I never start, I retaliate once insulted first..

    You haven’t shown she was in the same place at the same time. You’ve said they were in the city the same year. Wow I’m sure other famous people were in chicago that same year as well. Chicago is a big city with a large population you still haven’t shown they were even in the same block on the same week let alone that they ever met.

  430. The Truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: We have seen. You’re thoroughly incompetent and impotent.

    So, you sit behind your computer riding on the coattails of others that have done research for you in defense of Obama, and then claim my research is incompetent. Show me all of your research? Don’t worry, it doesn’t even need to be on this subject, you can show me your research on how to spread cow manure on your own shoes.

  431. Arthur says:

    The Truth: Here is more information for anyone who is actually curious;

    So you think that President Obama’s father is really Muhammad Subuh. Other birthers are sure it’s Malcolm X. Or Frank Marshall Davis. Or some unknown Saudi or Indonesian. Nancy Owens says it was her father, and some woman in Kansas says it was her’s. At BritherReport I’ve seen people claim Obama’s the offspring of a certain Austrian corporal. What do all these people have in common with you? They offer nothing to prove their allegations but meaningless coincidences and crank websites, even as they reject all the objective evidence that establishes where Obama was born and who his father was.

  432. Rickey says:

    The Truth:
    1, Subuh was in San Francisco also in 1958, this shows he was there multiple times not just 1959/1960

    He wasn’t in San Francisco in 1960. He was in San Francisco from July 3, 1959 through July 10, 1959, more than two years before President Obama was born. Stanley Ann Dunham went to San Francisco during her senior year of high school, months after Subuh was there. Subuh was in Europe from August 1, 1959 until January 15, 1960. He then traveled to Calcutta before returning to Indonesia, and there is no record of him traveling again until 1963.

    http://www.subudstories.info/bapak/talks/talks.html

    Guess who was in Chicago when Dunham was 16?

    He was in Chicago from June 17, 1959 through June 25, 1959. Do you have evidence that Dunham was in Chicago then? Are you now suggesting that he got her pregnant then, and she gave birth 25 months later? Are you really that stupid?

    Where does all this lead?

    To more idiocy, no doubt.

  433. The Truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: You haven’t shown she was in the same place at the same time.You’ve said they were in the city the same year.Wow I’m sure other famous people were in chicago that same year as well.Chicago is a big city with a large population you still haven’t shown they were even in the same block on the same week let alone that they ever met.

    Hmmm, lets see. I believe using just todays number the Subud has roughly 2,800 members, I am sure the number was much lower in 1960. What are the odds these two members would be in san Francisco at the same time one year and then in Chicago at the same time the year before. And then Dunham moves not to Kenya but to Indonesia where guess who is from? And lets not forget Fuddy who also belongs to Subud and is the sole death in a plane crash when the odds are one in eleven million that would happen. You have a very dimly lit bulb.

  434. Rickey says:

    For anyone who is interested, this link takes you to a listing of all of Subuh’s talks from 1957 to 1987. They are listed chronologically and the links are highlighted by a three-letter code for the city in which he spoke, so it is easy to find the talks which he gave in Chicago and San Francisco. It also establishes that he was in Europe when Stanley Ann Dunham “ran away” to San Francisco for a few days in the fall of 1959 or early in 1960.

    http://www.subudstories.info/bapak/talks/talks.html

  435. American Mzungu says:

    The Truth: And then Dunham moves not to Kenya but to Indonesia where guess who is from?

    Sukarno? Just a lucky guess.

  436. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: So, you sit behind your computer riding on the coattails of others that have done research for you in defense of Obama, and then claim my research is incompetent. Show me all of your research? Don’t worry, it doesn’t even need to be on this subject, you can show me your research on how to spread cow manure on your own shoes.

    And your whining comes full circle. I don’t let others do my research for me. I search stuff on my own and then make an informed decision. Instead of what you do where you look for the most ridiculous negative thing you can find about the president. Find a really deep in the fringe website repeating the claim and instantly believe it without bothering to vet the source, the information or the motive behind it. As I’ve said before I’ve read lots of comments on this site over the years you can find them in many of the articles in the index on the site. Stop being lazy.

  437. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: What are the odds these two members would be in san Francisco at the same time one year and then in Chicago at the same time the year before.

    You have never established that Ann Dunham was ever a member. Again you’re making false conclusions based off of false premises. Again you still have not shown they were on the same block during the same week of time let alone that they ever met.

    Have you considered therapy?

    You’re making magical connections where there are none. This is a common trait among schizophrenics.

  438. The Truth says:

    Rickey:
    For anyone who is interested, this link takes you to a listing of all of Subuh’s talks from 1957 to 1987. They are listed chronologically and the links are highlighted by a three-letter code for the city in which he spoke, so it is easy to find the talks which he gave in Chicago and San Francisco. It also establishes that he was in Europe when Stanley Ann Dunham “ran away” to San Francisco for a few days in the fall of 1959 or early in 1960.

    http://www.subudstories.info/bapak/talks/talks.html

    Way to go! You found my link. Actually he was in San Francisco until Late August of 1959, when she ran away. In Seattle I am sure Late August would be considered at least be close to fall. Now please explain Chicago.

  439. Joey says:

    American Mzungu: Sukarno?Just a lucky guess.

    And who could ever forget Suharto?

  440. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: Way to go! You found my link. Actually he was in San Francisco until Late August of 1959, when she ran away. In Seattle I am sure Late August would be considered at least be close to fall. Now please explain Chicago.

    Again you’ve shown no proof that they were in the same area during the same week let alone that they ever met. What’s there to explain about Chicago? You’ve shown no proof they were there at the same time let alone that they ever met.

    Remind me again why we should take you seriously?

  441. bob says:

    The Truth: Show me all of your research?

    Here you go.

    But, please: Go ahead and hate America some more.

  442. The Truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: And your whining comes full circle.I don’t let others do my research for me.I search stuff on my own and then make an informed decision.Instead of what you do where you look for the most ridiculous negative thing you can find about the president.Find a really deep in the fringe website repeating the claim and instantly believe it without bothering to vet the source, the information or the motive behind it.As I’ve said before I’ve read lots of comments on this site over the years you can find them in many of the articles in the index on the site.Stop being lazy.

    Actually I tried to post this on the Subud thread from this site but it was closed. I think your comment was the last one and said something like “nobody has shown they were in the same city let along the same country at the same time” Sorry if the quote is off but that is close to what you said. Then I show you that evidence and you still scoff. Turn your light bulb back on.

  443. American Mzungu says:

    The Truth: Now please explain Chicago

    Obama. Community organizer.

  444. The Truth says:

    bob: Here you go.

    But, please: Go ahead and hate America some more.

    I love my country, it has the first amendment.

  445. The Truth says:

    American Mzungu: Obama.Community organizer.

    Sorry, she wasn’t married yet.

  446. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: Actually I tried to post this on the Subud thread from this site but it was closed. I think your comment was the last one and said something like “nobody has shown they were in the same city let along the same country at the same time” Sorry if the quote is off but that is close to what you said. Then I show you that evidence and you still scoff. Turn your light bulb back on.

    You’ve shown no evidence that they ever met let alone were in on the same block in the same city during the same week. Seriously you’re making me think that the wheel in your head is still turning but the hamster died a long time ago. Where do you come up with this crazy stuff?

  447. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: Sorry, she wasn’t married yet.

    Maybe you can explain how Ann Dunham could have carried a baby long past 9 months that would have been required for your fairy tale.

  448. The Truth says:

    The Truth: Actually I tried to post this on the Subud thread from this site but it was closed. I think your comment was the last one and said something like “nobody has shown they were in the same city let along the same country at the same time” Sorry if the quote is off but that is close to what you said. Then I show you that evidence and you still scoff. Turn your light bulb back on.

    By the way, you should actually research outside this site once in a while, just in case it is biased.

  449. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: By the way, you should actually research outside this site once in a while, just in case it is biased.

    Yes it’s adorable how you’re telling yourself you should do some research. Maybe one day you’ll take it up.

  450. The Truth says:

    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater: Maybe you can explain how Ann Dunham could have carried a baby long past 9 months that would have been required for your fairy tale.

    What if he was born in Hawaii but not on the sate stated? After all, she supposedly attended college 14 days after he was supposed to be born. Most mothers take a little more time than that with their newborn. Just saying, maybe she was just eager.

  451. The Truth says:

    So sorry to leave again but once again today I am having computer virus issues. Now I know how Dianne Feinstein feels.

  452. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: What if he was born in Hawaii but not on the sate stated?

    Not on the sate stated? English please? Is there any proof he was born on any other date? The birth announcements confirm the date as does the 1961 INS data for Barack Obama Sr.

    The Truth: After all, she supposedly attended college 14 days after he was supposed to be born.

    She took correspondence classes which were done by mail and not on site. Good lord you’re full of long debunked information.

  453. Dr. Kenneth Noisewater says:

    The Truth: So sorry to leave again but once again today I am having computer virus issues.

    You sure it wasn’t mental issues?

  454. American Mzungu says:

    The Truth: So sorry to leave again but once again today I am having computer virus issues.

    You and Orly!

  455. J.D. Sue says:

    The Truth: What if he was born in Hawaii but not on the sate stated? After all, she supposedly attended college 14 days after he was supposed to be born. Most mothers take a little more time than that with their newborn. Just saying, maybe she was just eager.


    Maybe you are a busy-body old hen, who particularly likes to talk about other people’s mothers.

  456. bob says:

    The Truth: I love my country

    I don’t know which country is yours, but you hate America because you refuse to respect the U.S. Constitution.

  457. Rickey says:

    The Truth: Way to go! You found my link. Actually he was in San Francisco until Late August of 1959, when she ran away. In Seattle I am sure Late August would be considered at least be close to fall.

    I can only assume that you suffer from a reading disorder, because Supuh was on Olso, Norway on August 1, 1959.

    http://www.subudstories.info/bapak/talks/vol-4/vol4-10.html

    On August 11 he was in London.

    On August 21 he was in Coombe Springs, England.

    On September 3 he was in Exeter, England.

    Some researcher you are!

  458. I encourage that by making it easy for readers to access original sources. See, for example, the items under my Bookmarks menu, and of course appropriate hyperlinks in articles.

    A professional researcher once commented on this site as a great way to “deep dive” the topic and to get links to authoritative information. And in fact the site is designed to be a research tool–not to make this site’s information an end in itself, but rather as a reference and an index.

    The Truth: By the way, you should actually research outside this site once in a while, just in case it is biased.

  459. Rickey says:

    The Truth: What if he was born in Hawaii but not on the sate stated? After all, she supposedly attended college 14 days after he was supposed to be born. Most mothers take a little more time than that with their newborn. Just saying, maybe she was just eager.

    You erroneously believe that Subuh and Dunham were both in San Francisco in August, 1959 (as I have shown, he was in Norway and England in August, 1959). If she had conceived at that time, she would have given birth in or around May, 1960, right around the time she graduated high school. Don’t you think that her classmates would have noticed if she had been pregnant?

    As for attending college, maybe she just wanted to begin classes on the date they were scheduled to begin?

    Of course, it doesn’t matter if President Obama was born in Washington in 1960 or in Hawaii in 1961. Either way, he is a natural born citizen.

  460. bgansel9 says:

    The Truth: So sorry to leave again but once again today I am having computer virus issues.

    That tends to happen when you go to the type of sites you are “researching”.

  461. The Truth says:

    Rickey: You erroneously believe that Subuh and Dunham were both in San Francisco in August, 1959 (as I have shown, he was in Norway and England in August, 1959). If she had conceived at that time, she would have given birth in or around May, 1960, right around the time she graduated high school. Don’t you think that her classmates would have noticed if she had been pregnant?

    As for attending college, maybe she just wanted to begin classes on the date they were scheduled to begin?

    Of course, it doesn’t matter if President Obama was born in Washington in 1960 or in Hawaii in 1961. Either way, he is a natural born citizen.

    So what you are saying is that she could have been six months pregnant when she graduated and nobody noticed? I don’t recall if twinkies were invented then, maybe they just thought she ate a lot of them.

  462. Northland10 says:

    Truthless troll
    Adds useless snot
    Only response
    Feed it not
    Burma-Shave

  463. American Mzungu says: