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Cold Case Posse: The Sword of Damocles

imageIf you’re not familiar with the legend of the Sword of Damocles, I suggest you take a moment to read the synopsis at the Wikipedia.

Jerome Corsi and the Cold Case Posse are in a very precarious position and what little credibility they have left is hanging by a thread, which may break at any moment.

The Maricopa Sheriff’s Department Cold Case Posse and Mike Zullo made as the centerpiece of their recent press conference a claim of internal inconsistency on Barack Obama’s birth certificate, a contradiction between the text race response for Obama’s father and the data entry code next to it. To make the case, Zullo presented what he claimed was a “1961 vital statistics instruction manual.” It has since been shown that the image from this “manual” that appeared in their video presentation was faked; they used an image from 1968. They misrepresented what they showed.

Zullo may well believe that since the 1968 codes make the birth certificate wrong, that they are the real codes. He’s entitled to sloppy research for his personal beliefs, but when he claims to represent law enforcement, personal belief and sloppy research is not an acceptable standard and lying about what he had is beyond the pale.

Zullo, Corsi and the lot of them should realize that they don’t have much time left. All it takes is one more long form Hawaiian birth certificate from 1961 that doesn’t match Zullo’s codes and he is done for.

No one knows this better than Jerome Corsi.

You see, Jerome Corsi published an article at WorldNetDaily back in September of 2011 titled, How does Obama’s document stack up against genuine BC? In that article, he showed an August, 1961 birth certificate for an unnamed female person (the name is known, but I won’t repeat it for privacy reasons). The parent race items are redacted, but not the codes:

image

It appears that both father and mother are coded “3.” If the Cold Case Posse showed the true 1961 Hawaiian codes, that means that both these persons are (American) Indians. Corsi has the original unredacted form, and he can look at it to see how much hot water he’s in. It could be “Indian” on the form: .22% of 1961 Hawaiian births were coded “Indian.” But you know, looking at the smudges above the redacted text, there seems to be something longer than “Indian” there. I think I know what it is.

I want to thank several individuals who contributed information used in this article.

[Update: Code 3 in Hawaii meant “Part Hawaiian.”

492 Responses to Cold Case Posse: The Sword of Damocles

  1. avatar
    Andy July 22, 2012 at 7:07 pm #

    Quick question Doc:

    If it doesn’t say “Indian,” then the code for 1961 would be incorrect, as well, as “3” means the same in either year, unless you’re thinking “Native American.”

  2. avatar
    Andy July 22, 2012 at 7:14 pm #

    (Tried to edit, but it came up blank)

    Or is this to say that the codes are specifically Hawaiian, and not federal at all?

  3. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 22, 2012 at 7:18 pm #

    The 1961 code table I presented is the federal coding table. It now appears possible neither the 1961 federal table, nor the faux 1961 table from the Cold Case Posse is what Hawaii used for its internal coding.

    One can argue about what the correct codes were and which coding system applies. New evidence may cause one to change their opinion. What is out of bounds is lying about the source material available.

    Andy: Quick question Doc:

    If it doesn’t say “Indian,” then the code for 1961 would be incorrect, as well, as “3″ means the same in either year, unless you’re thinking “Native American.”

  4. avatar
    Scientist July 22, 2012 at 7:27 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The 1961 code table I presented is the federal coding table. It now appears possible neither the 1961 federal table, nor the faux 1961 table from the Cold Case Posse is what Hawaii used for its internal coding.

    Doc- I am thoroughly confused. It seems to me that any forgery would have to have been done with the connivance of the Hawaii DoH, since they have validated the certificate countless times. And if the Hawaii DoH were conniving with the forger, then they would have simply provided the correct codes used on Hawaiian certificates at that time, whether they were federal or state in origin.

    So, it seems to me, the codes are neither evidence of forgery nor evidence against.

    Is there a flaw in my logic? Doc? Anyone?

    Of course that the CCP mis-represented their results appears almost certain and that is inexcusable on their part. That they did so on something that doesn’t really help their case is \just plain dumb.

  5. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 22, 2012 at 7:36 pm #

    While I sincerely doubt that the State of Hawaii has their 1961 coding instructions any more, they have 17,000 1961 birth certificates available for the purpose of reconstructing the codes. So your point is well taken.

    The CCP misrepresented their evidence, and in doing so, call into question all of their other representations of evidence. And, lets face it, about all we have from the CCP is representations of evidence.

    A correct code means little. An incorrect code would raise a question as to why it’s wrong.

    Scientist: So, it seems to me, the codes are neither evidence of forgery nor evidence against.

    Is there a flaw in my logic? Doc? Anyone?

    Of course that the CCP mis-represented their results appears almost certain and that is inexcusable on their part. That they did so on something that doesn’t really help their case is just plain dumb.

  6. avatar
    Scientist July 22, 2012 at 7:52 pm #

    If Hawaii doesn’t have their 1961 manuals, the CCP certainly doesn’t. And the CCP has access to only a tiny sample of certificates, while Hawaii has the complete set. So, the only ones who could possibly say what is “correct’ and “incorrect’ are Hawaii, Thus, the codes cannot possibly help the CCP if Hawaii is “in on the forgery” (of course there IS no forgery). And if Hawaii is not “in on the forgery”, why would they validate the certificate and the data on it unless it is true?

    So the CCP is checkmated by their own arrogance and sloppiness. Couldn’t happen to a nice bunch of clowns.

  7. avatar
    Palamas July 22, 2012 at 7:54 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy,

    I think the problem with your reasoning here is that even if the CCP is not spot on, what they are reporting (and seems to be the case at least on some level) is confirmed by what Gov. Abercrombie said months ago. You forget all of the irregularities of the entire story and unreleased documents of all sorts — you suggest the odds that all of those irregularities as being low or common, random. People without a bias wouldn’t view it that way.

  8. avatar
    Andy July 22, 2012 at 7:58 pm #

    Palamas:
    Dr. Conspiracy,

    I think the problem with your reasoning here is that even if the CCP is not spot on, what they are reporting (and seems to be the case at least on some level) is confirmed by what Gov. Abercrombie said months ago. You forget all of the irregularities of the entire story and unreleased documents of all sorts — you suggest the odds that all of those irregularities as being low or common, random. People without a bias wouldn’t view it that way.

    And what irregularities would that be? I haven’t found a single one. It looks like any vital record I’ve ever seen, and has been verified more than any I’ve ever heard of.

  9. avatar
    gorefan July 22, 2012 at 7:58 pm #

    Palamas: Gov. Abercrombie said months ago

    What did the governor say exactly. And use quotes and link to them. You may find he didn’t say what you believe he said.

  10. avatar
    Scientist July 22, 2012 at 7:59 pm #

    Palamas: , what they are reporting (and seems to be the case at least on some level) is confirmed by what Gov. Abercrombie said months ago.

    i must have missed what he said,

    Palamas: You forget all of the irregularities of the entire story

    Wouldn’t a pregnant woman travelling 12,000 miles by herself to a country she doesn’t know to give birth be irregular? Wouldn’t regular be to give birth where she lived?

    You make a very good case that the President was born in Hawaii. As such, everything is quite regular.

  11. avatar
    Andy July 22, 2012 at 8:01 pm #

    Scientist: As such, everything is quite regular.

    I’m not sure he’s regular. It seems to be dripping out his mouth.

  12. avatar
    gorefan July 22, 2012 at 8:01 pm #

    Doc – question.

    In the 1961 codes there is a second set of race codes (page 10 of 12) labeled “Race Recode #2”. What are these?

  13. avatar
    John Woodman July 22, 2012 at 9:07 pm #

    Quite a few people know exactly whose birth certificate this is, by the way. The name was published on the internet months ago.

  14. avatar
    donna July 22, 2012 at 9:19 pm #

    Scientist: Wouldn’t a pregnant woman travelling 12,000 miles by herself to a country she doesn’t know to give birth be irregular? Wouldn’t regular be to give birth where she lived?

    in the 60s, i don’t know that the airlines and/or doctors allowed pregnant women to fly after the 6th month

    certainly, a young pregnant woman would want to be with HER mother when she delivers – it would be RARE that that wasn’t the case –

    it is INCONCEIVABLE that she traveled that distance, with so many stopovers, alone and pregnant and for what reason?

  15. avatar
    Thrifty July 22, 2012 at 9:42 pm #

    I keep hearing you guys say this. Now I’m no Birther, but may I play devil’s advocate for a minute here and suggest that a heavily pregnant Stanley Ann Dunham never traveled to Kenya at all? Rather she was there for the duration of her pregnancy.

    Scientist: i must have missed what he said,

    Wouldn’t a pregnant woman travelling 12,000 miles by herself to a country she doesn’t know to give birth be irregular? Wouldn’t regular be to give birth where she lived?

    You make a very good case that the President was born in Hawaii.As such, everything is quite regular.

  16. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 22, 2012 at 9:51 pm #

    John Woodman: Quite a few people know exactly whose birth certificate this is, by the way. The name was published on the internet months ago.

    Is the full certificate on the internet? If so what does it show for the race of the mother and father?

  17. avatar
    MARK ROCK July 22, 2012 at 9:52 pm #

    Obama’s lawyer, Alexandra Hill, admitted in a NJ court that the OBAMA BIRTH CERTIFICATE posted on the White House web site IS A FORGERY, along with actual videos of the court proceedings:

    http://www.teapartytribune.com/2012/04/13/obama-lawyer-admits-forgery-but-disregards-image-as-indication-of-obamas-ineligibility-damage-control/

    [Mark is of course lying. I’ve seen the videos and no such statement was ever made. Mario Apuzzo was there and also confirms it never happened. Doc.]

  18. avatar
    MARK ROCK July 22, 2012 at 9:53 pm #

    * * * THANK YOU SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO * * *

    ! ! ! GO GET THAT FAKE, PHONY, FRAUD ! ! !

    ! ! ! OBAMA IS THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE ! ! !

    ORIGINAL PROOF OF FORGERY:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s9StxsFllY
    (From April 27, 2011)

    LATEST PROOF WITH DOWNLOADABLE DOCUMENT:
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/07/new_obama_birth_certificate_forgery_proof_in_the_layers.html

    “DE-LAYERING” FOR IDIOTS:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn7OR-blyPg

    INFOWARS SPOOF (from Liberal point of view):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0ZB9aK2fzg

    Snopes.com Obama lawyer admits to forgery in NJ court:
    http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/ineligible.asp

    SELECTIVE SERVICE FORGERY:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHAM3hRI8_Y

    MANY LINKS TO OBAMA’S FORGERIES:
    http://cdrkerchner.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/abc-news-video-investigator-mike-zullo-talks-about-obamas-forged-birth-certificate/

  19. avatar
    John Woodman July 22, 2012 at 9:55 pm #

    I love the birther response:

    Post example after example of known, proven, verifiably false birther propaganda.

    Because 60 or 70 absolute rubbish proven false claims are SOOOO much more convincing than just two or three.

  20. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 22, 2012 at 9:55 pm #

    MARK ROCK: Obama’s lawyer, Alexandra Hill, admitted in a NJ court that the OBAMA BIRTH CERTIFICATE posted on the White House web site IS A FORGERY, along with actual videos of the court proceedings:http://www.teapartytribune.com/2012/04/13/obama-lawyer-admits-forgery-but-disregards-image-as-indication-of-obamas-ineligibility-damage-control/

    You’re frothing at the keyboard, Mark. Before you go further you might want to take a few minutes to check the debunkers guide link at the top of this page below the Doctor’s photo.

  21. avatar
    John Woodman July 22, 2012 at 9:57 pm #

    The laughable thing is that one of Mark’s links completely refutes another of Mark’s links.

    Does this site have a resident shrink?

  22. avatar
    donna July 22, 2012 at 9:59 pm #

    MARK ROCK :

    if you read the transcript, alexandra hill DID NOT say that

    the snopes link YOU posted says FALSE to that assertion

    all of your other links are just as BOGUS & were DEBUNKED ages ago

    TRY to keep up!!!!!!

  23. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 22, 2012 at 10:00 pm #

    John Woodman: Post example after example of known, proven, verifiably false birther propaganda

    I particularly like the links to items that don’t say what they think……like the snopes piece on Obama’s lawyer and the birth certificate.

    Do they even read this stuff before they vomit it up again and again?

  24. avatar
    John Woodman July 22, 2012 at 10:00 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Is the full certificate on the internet? If so what does it show for the race of the mother and father?

    And no. The full certificate is not on the internet.

    WorldNetDaily posted a redacted version.

    Then, they suddenly replaced that with ANOTHER, MORE redacted version.

    A poster called gorefan (who show up here, there, and all over the place) messaged me about it over at my blog. I found it very, very curious. I went and fished the original images out of google’s cache, and from those images we learned the certificate number.

    Which completely destroyed a major birther proof-of-forgery claim.

    One that, actually, Arpaio’s posse repeated last week, even though it’s been known to be false since last fall.

  25. avatar
    John Woodman July 22, 2012 at 10:02 pm #

    One, I might add, that was originally based on a transparently FALSE claim by Jerome Corsi that a 1955 article by Charles Bennett told us exactly what order certificates were numbered in.

    Corsi has never corrected his known false claim, or retracted any of his information in regard to that article that is known and confirmed to be false.

  26. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG July 22, 2012 at 10:03 pm #

    Something tells me that when Birfer-John finally melts down, it will be like 10x worse than Mark.

  27. avatar
    MARK ROCK July 22, 2012 at 10:08 pm #

    VIDEO OF OBAMA (IN HIS OWN WORDS) THAT HE WAS BORN IN KENYA:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8

    [This video was a spoof done by a web site called ObamaSnippets.com. It is doctored to make Obama say something he never actually said. The original undoctored video is available. ObamaSnippets have dome other videos showing Obama appointing SnoopDog to some post, and also that he was resigning. Birthers will believe anything. Doc.]

  28. avatar
    Fazil Iskander July 22, 2012 at 10:08 pm #

    It’s an odd thought. She left her husband and family to be with her husband’s family in Africa, to be with her in-laws, in other words, none of whom she knew well if at all. Because she wanted to be a burden to these near strangers for months? Then, what? She travelled back with her infant son? Why not stay in Africa if she were so enamored of her husband’s family? In this world anything is possible, but you’d have to say her motivations are so obscure as to be psychologically exceptional. Then, as a poster in another thread pointed out, she would have had to have kept this information from her son. He had no reason to believe he would be president at the time of the writing of his first book, so why wouldn’t Obama have mentioned it in his first book, if she had told him about it? Unless she did tell him all about her pregnancy and he chose to lie. Because? He might jeopardize his citizenship? So, you have a mother, son, and family complicit in a lie that was necessitated by the mother’s inexplicable decision to be around strangers during her pregnancy. That’s not even to mention that the availability of medical attention in Africa at the time was not comparable to availability in the US. So, for your version to be credible, Stanley Ann would have to have been a pioneering practitioner of “Extreme Pregancy”. Very strange thought.

    Thrifty:
    I keep hearing you guys say this.Now I’m no Birther, but may I play devil’s advocate for a minute here and suggest that a heavily pregnant Stanley Ann Dunham never traveled to Kenya at all?Rather she was there for the duration of her pregnancy.

  29. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 22, 2012 at 10:09 pm #

    John Woodman: One that, actually, Arpaio’s posse repeated last week, even though it’s been known to be false since last fall

    It’s mind boggling. I’m more sure than ever that no one else was involved in this so-called “investigation” other than Zullo (who I still can’t find much nfo on) and Corsi.

  30. avatar
    MARK ROCK July 22, 2012 at 10:13 pm #

    LIBERAL LOGIC:

    1) I WANT THE APPLE TO BE BLUE.
    2) THE SPECTROGRAPH MEASURES IT AS RED.
    3) THE APPLE ADMITS THAT IT IS RED.
    4) I DON’T CARE, I WANT IT TO BE BLUE, SO IT’S BLUE.

  31. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 22, 2012 at 10:14 pm #

    MARK ROCK: VIDEO OF OBAMA (IN HIS OWN WORDS) THAT HE WAS BORN IN KENYA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8

    Not to put too fine a point on it Mark, but you’re making a five star fool of yourself.

    The clip you desperately want to believe is true is not. It was originally posted on a humor site.

    Check out Snopes:

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/notborn.asp

    Do yourself a big favor and do a little checking before you post any more of this nonsense.

  32. avatar
    Arthur July 22, 2012 at 10:20 pm #

    Well here’s me being dumb. The article concludes,

    “Corsi has the original unredacted form, and he can look at it to see how much hot water he’s in. It could be “Indian” on the form: .22% of 1961 Hawaiian births were coded “Indian.” But you know, looking at the smudges about the redacted codes, there seems to be something longer than “Indian” there. I think I know what it is.”

    Could someone explain Dr. C.’s point/argument/explanation. This, I-think-I-know-but-I’m-not-telling stuff is going right over my head.

  33. avatar
    Andy July 22, 2012 at 10:20 pm #

    Mark, please. If you’re not going to contribute anything logical or sensible to the conversation, find another place to play.

    We discuss things like adults. Not like dolts.

  34. avatar
    Thomas Brown July 22, 2012 at 10:22 pm #

    Pssst… Hey Mark… Lemme set you straight.

    It’s all lies.

    Have you ever heard of partisan smears? No? Well, here’s how it works: one side gives a whole lot of money to people with strong minds to think up anything from deceptions to exaggerations to outright bald-faced LIES, and package them and broadcast them in a form that SOUNDS plausible to people with weak minds, so they will believe something negative about the other side.

    Obama’s enemies have so little to work with that is real to make him look bad that they have had to spread absolute garbage, hoping people like you will think it smells like rose buds. You live in a fantasy world where all the lies they spread about Obama—the non-existent forgeries, the non-existent ties to terrorists, the non-existent hatred for white people, the non-existent narcissicism, the non-existent anti-Americanism, the non-existent desire to confiscate your guns, etc. etc. etc.—are true.

    That’s what’s happening, buddy. Maybe someday you’ll figure it out.

  35. avatar
    MARK ROCK July 22, 2012 at 10:24 pm #

    ANY CHILD WITH ADOBE ILLUSTRATOR CAN DOWNLOAD THE FRAUDULENT OBAMA BIRTH CERTIFICATE HIMSELF AND “DE-LAYER” THE FORGERY:

    ORIGINAL PROOF OF FORGERY:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s9StxsFllY
    (From April 27, 2011)

    LATEST PROOF WITH DOWNLOADABLE DOCUMENT:
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/07/new_obama_birth_certificate_forgery_proof_in_the_layers.html

    “DE-LAYERING” FOR IDIOTS:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn7OR-blyPg

    SELECTIVE SERVICE FORGERY:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHAM3hRI8_Y

    MANY LINKS TO OBAMA’S FORGERIES:
    http://cdrkerchner.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/abc-news-video-investigator-mike-zullo-talks-about-obamas-forged-birth-certificate/

  36. avatar
    Arthur July 22, 2012 at 10:24 pm #

    MARK ROCK:
    Why do you Liberals WANT to be RULED by someone???

    Dearest Mark,

    This week is the Festival of Fools–we want you to assume the crown of Quasimodo and mount the throne of the Boy Bishop. We liberals want to ruled by you, by you, and nobody else but you! Poop-poop-be-doo.

  37. avatar
    Keith July 22, 2012 at 10:30 pm #

    Thrifty: I keep hearing you guys say this. Now I’m no Birther, but may I play devil’s advocate for a minute here and suggest that a heavily pregnant Stanley Ann Dunham never traveled to Kenya at all? Rather she was there for the duration of her pregnancy.

    OK. When did she return?

  38. avatar
    Arthur July 22, 2012 at 10:34 pm #

    MARK ROCK: DON’T LIBERALS ALWAYS PRETEND TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT PEOPLES FEELINGS?

    That’s a lie spread by the liberal media. How on earth can you believe such nonsense–you, a bold and genius-level thinker. And your typing! All upper case . . . my gosh, it’s like we’re in the same room and you’re yelling at me, spit flying, eyes bulging. I can almost smell your halitosis; it’s breath taking.

  39. avatar
    Arthur July 22, 2012 at 10:37 pm #

    MARK ROCK: THEN YOU MUST BE THE “USEFUL IDIOTS”

    I’m not only a useful idiot, I’m an AMERICAN IDIOT. Mark, why do you hate America’s idiots?

  40. avatar
    Andy July 22, 2012 at 10:41 pm #

    MARK ROCK: JUST AS THE LIBERAL MEDIA HAS BEEN COVERING FOR OBAMA ALL THESE YEARS.

    That isn’t a sentence. Please try again.

  41. avatar
    Arthur July 22, 2012 at 10:41 pm #

    MARK ROCK: UST AS THE LIBERAL MEDIA HAS BEEN COVERING FOR OBAMA ALL THESE YEARS.

    Mark, I think you should cover up and go nitey-night. I’m sure the nurses on the Alzheimer’s wing would like a break from your loud typing.

  42. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 22, 2012 at 10:43 pm #

    You have to think back to how primitive computers were in 1961.

    Let’s say that the codes were;

    1 black
    2 white
    3 chinese
    4 japanese
    5 indian

    and they wanted to make many tabulations of

    1. black
    2. white
    3. other

    They would recode the first values into the second values, so a simple tabulation engine could handle it by looking at the recode values. Anything labeled “recode” is just information derived from the other codes.

    gorefan: Doc – question.

    In the 1961 codes there is a second set of race codes (page 10 of 12) labeled “Race Recode #2″. What are these?

  43. avatar
    Arthur July 22, 2012 at 10:43 pm #

    MARK ROCK:
    I DESPISE LIBERALS. . .

    Oh, come on, Mark–don’t say that. We love you. Besides, liberals brought you gay marriage and activist judges, your two favorite things.

  44. avatar
    richCares July 22, 2012 at 10:45 pm #

    Mark, it was difficult finding your address but we finally did, we are sending a technician to fix your keyboard, it appears locked in upper case. Be patient, we will be there soon.

  45. avatar
    MARK ROCK July 22, 2012 at 10:46 pm #

    IT’S JUST A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE YOU LIBERALS CRITICISE THE TECHNICAL ELEMENTS OF COMMUNICATION (UPPER-CASE, INCOMPLETE SENTENCE) . . . YOU KNOW THE TRUTH OF OBAMA’S ILLEGITIMACY IS REAL, YOU CAN’T DEAL WITH IT ON A FACTUAL BASIS, SO YOU RESORT TO THE ALINSKY RULE BOOK TO ATTACK THE GOOD GUY ANY WAY YOU CAN . . . TYPICAL FASCIST LIBERAL STATE-IST.

  46. avatar
    Andy July 22, 2012 at 10:49 pm #

    MARK ROCK:
    IT’S JUST A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE YOU LIBERALS CRITICISE THE TECHNICAL ELEMENTS OF COMMUNICATION (UPPER-CASE, INCOMPLETE SENTENCE). . .YOU KNOW THE TRUTH OF OBAMA’S ILLEGITIMACY IS REAL, YOU CAN’T DEAL WITH IT ON A FACTUAL BASIS, SO YOU RESORT TO THE ALINSKY RULE BOOK TO ATTACK THE GOOD GUY ANY WAY YOU CAN . . .TYPICAL FASCIST LIBERAL STATE-IST.

    No Mark, we deal with the fantasy you live in on a daily basis. To keep us from getting pissed off, we make fun of the people who created the fantasy in the first place. It’s as simple as that. No conspiracy theory needed.

  47. avatar
    Keith July 22, 2012 at 10:50 pm #

    Thomas Brown: the non-existent desire to confiscate your guns

    No, no, no. I would like to confiscate Marks guns.

    I think we need to start putting a LOT more emphasis on the justification part of the 2nd Amendment. The part that says the reason why we can bear arms is because a well regulated militia is vital to the security of a free nation. Its too bad that the framers left off that an anarchistic militia gun toting mob is completely hostile to a free nation.

    Clearly Mark is not well regulated; perhaps he’s just missed his meds today, but he is not well regulated.

  48. avatar
    Arthur July 22, 2012 at 10:52 pm #

    MARK ROCK: IT’S JUST A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE YOU LIBERALS CRITICISE THE TECHNICAL ELEMENTS OF COMMUNICATION (UPPER-CASE, INCOMPLETE SENTENCE) . . .

    Mark, don’t forget: I also criticized your age. Liberals LOVE mocking the elderly, especially the ones like you, who get all foamy in the mouth.

  49. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG July 22, 2012 at 10:53 pm #

    Hey Mark, just a pro-tip: Typing in all caps makes you look like a 13 year old dumb ass.

  50. avatar
    Majority Will July 22, 2012 at 10:54 pm #

    Poe’s law.

  51. avatar
    Arthur July 22, 2012 at 10:54 pm #

    MARK ROCK: YOU KNOW THE TRUTH OF OBAMA’S ILLEGITIMACY IS REAL,

    Of course we know the truth. And we’re laughing all the way to November, when we will join forces with CHAOS and foment a false-flag incident that makes Obama president for life. Then you better watch it, Mark–here come the death panels!

  52. avatar
    donna July 22, 2012 at 10:58 pm #

    MARK ROCK:

    this might help with your caps lock

    http://www.hotcouponworld.com/2012/04/freebie-cutex-advanced-revival-nail-polish-remover-pad/

    therapy for your other problems

    i also suggest that you use credible sources and try reading them

  53. avatar
    john July 22, 2012 at 10:59 pm #

    Where does the CCP go from here? They should take all their information and submit to Congress as a criminal investigative complaint. I seriously doubt though Congress will touch it. I believe the cover up lies within the Hawaii DOH and with the Hawaii AG Office. If I had to give some direction on what the CCP should do now, I would tell them to obtain State of Hawaii Government Emails. As I understand it, Government emails are public record and the CCP can not be denied these emails. I would obtain the emails of the following officials looking for reference of Obama and his vital records.

    Alvin Onaka – Onaka has produced a couple of verifications about Obama’s birth certificate. I would love to obtain Onaka government emails.

    Jill Nagamine

    Janice Okubo

    Governor Abercrombie and his press secretary emails.

    Lorretta Fuddy

  54. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 22, 2012 at 11:13 pm #

    No criticism. I’m just going to delete your all-upper case comments without saying anything more. Upper case comments are called “shouting” in Internet society, and they are considered impolite.

    It is also impolite to dump a large number of comments into a forum. I will fix that too.

    MARK ROCK: IT’S JUST A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE YOU LIBERALS CRITICISE THE TECHNICAL ELEMENTS OF COMMUNICATION (UPPER-CASE, INCOMPLETE SENTENCE)

  55. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 22, 2012 at 11:16 pm #

    And any child with Adobe Acrobat can scan a form and get layers just like the Obama certificate. I’ve done it myself. Sorry, but you shouldn’t comment on things you don’t understand.

    MARK ROCK: ANY CHILD WITH ADOBE ILLUSTRATOR CAN DOWNLOAD THE FRAUDULENT OBAMA BIRTH CERTIFICATE HIMSELF AND “DE-LAYER” THE FORGERY:

  56. avatar
    Andy July 22, 2012 at 11:22 pm #

    john:
    Where does the CCP go from here?

    Maybe to a library, to get the actual documents they are misquoting?

    Or maybe to a law enforcement class, to learn about investigations?

    Possibly to law school, to learn about how the law works in privacy matters?

    To jail? Away? To hell in a handbasket?

  57. avatar
    Jim July 22, 2012 at 11:22 pm #

    john:
    Where does the CCP go from here?They should take all their information and submit to Congress as a criminal investigative complaint.I seriously doubt though Congress will touch it.

    I doubt anybody with a lick of sense would touch a bunch of lies and made up facts. However, if Sheriff Joe will allow the same level of proof in his trials, I believe he’d be locked up for about 200 years. Think he’d go for that?

  58. avatar
    Arthur July 22, 2012 at 11:25 pm #

    john: If I had to give some direction on what the CCP should do now, I would tell them to obtain State of Hawaii Government Emails.

    Well, gee john, why don’t you saddle up and mosey on over to the Lazy A ranch. Betcha’ Sheriff Joe would be more than willing to give you a junior deputy badge set you to work on that very important project of yours.

    Happy trails!

  59. avatar
    justlw July 22, 2012 at 11:30 pm #

    MARK ROCK: Snopes.com Obama lawyer admits to forgery in NJ court:
    http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/ineligible.asp

    *slow clap*

  60. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 22, 2012 at 11:31 pm #

    The last comment is just being playful and poking the birthers. I have a pretty good idea what is on the pictured certificate. I’m not going to say because I am not sure. When I am sure, I will say.

    The argument goes:

    1. The form has code 3
    2. Zullo says code 3 is Indian
    3. Bits of the text on the form indicate an entry bigger than “indian”

    Therefore, it’s probably not Indian.
    Therefore, Zullo’s codes are wrong.

    Arthur: Could someone explain Dr. C.’s point/argument/explanation. This, I-think-I-know-but-I’m-not-telling stuff is going right over my head.

  61. avatar
    misha July 22, 2012 at 11:35 pm #

    MARK ROCK: Why do you Liberals WANT to be RULED by someone???

    As an officer in the International Jewish Conspiracy™, I am authorized to say the following:

    Here’s the plan, Mark. First, we are going to get Obama re-elected, and it’s working. Intrade has Obama at 58%; Wonder Bread Willard Romney at 39%.

    Once Obama is re-elected, liberals are going to outlaw straight marriage; only lesbian couples will be allowed. Vivid Video will have couples pouring out of the woodwork. I see women walk down the street holding hands, or with their arms around each other, and I become…well, you know. It’s great. Plus, I have a show quality Afghan hound, so I have a great way of talking to those couples, without looking like a voyeur.

    I am sooo looking forward to liberals ruling the country.

  62. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 22, 2012 at 11:36 pm #

    In a perfect world, they would go directly to jail, not pass GO and not collect $200 or perhaps be required to attend 200 hours of court-supervised remedial courses on logical inference and evidence.

    john: Where does the CCP go from here?

  63. avatar
    justlw July 22, 2012 at 11:36 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: an entry bigger than “indian”

    Ah, our computer science retrospective is moving on from character sets to big Indian vs little Indian?

  64. avatar
    Andy July 22, 2012 at 11:38 pm #

    The only problem I see, Doc, is that there is no way, not even the slightest chance, that Corsi will admit he’s lying or wrong.

    So while this wins points with anti-birthers, it does nothing to inform the larger world that they are wrong (not that most of them are paying attention).

    I guess my question is, can you prove you’re right without Corsi admitting as much?

  65. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 22, 2012 at 11:39 pm #

    john: They should take all their information and submit to Congress as a criminal investigative complaint.

    Couple problems, John: First, the posse has no authority to investigate crimes. They have no peace officer authority in Arizona…or anywhere else for that matter. Second: Congress doesn’t handle criminal complaints. Google “separation of powers” for info on how that works.

  66. avatar
    Jim July 22, 2012 at 11:47 pm #

    Andy:

    I guess my question is, can you prove you’re right without Corsi admitting as much?

    Oh, there’s something out there that will add to the proof. They didn’t go to all the trouble to put all that data together without reports being produced, studies being done, etc. In another thread, I mentioned 2 possibilities, the Hawaii Department of Health annual report, and a population study by a group called the East West Center in Honolulu. Interestingly, the population study was co-authored by Eleanor Nordyke, the twins mother.

  67. avatar
    AlCum July 22, 2012 at 11:53 pm #

    Palamas:
    Dr. Conspiracy,

    I think the problem with your reasoning here is that even if the CCP is not spot on, what they are reporting (and seems to be the case at least on some level) is confirmed by what Gov. Abercrombie said months ago. You forget all of the irregularities of the entire story and unreleased documents of all sorts — you suggest the odds that all of those irregularities as being low or common, random. People without a bias wouldn’t view it that way.

    What on earth are you talking about? What irregularities?

  68. avatar
    donna July 22, 2012 at 11:54 pm #

    John: “Government emails are public record”

    except for governor romney’s – he took the hard drives

    not even AZ’s REPUBLICAN elected officials are interested including members of congress-

    3TV reached out to both Senators John McCain (R) Arizona and Jon Kyl (R) Arizona, as well as at least six U.S. Representatives from Arizona, but none of them wanted to comment on the MCSO “birther” findings.

    “The joke’s really on the taxpayers and the people who keep putting this guy into office,” said Grant Woods, a former REPUBLICAN Arizona Attorney General. “But once again this is an embarrassment to this country coming out of Arizona.”

    On Tuesday, REPUBLICAN Secretary of State Ken Bennett’s spokesman, Matt Roberts, declined 3TV’s request for a statement and said only that Bennett was “out of town, unavailable and does not have any plans to take action.”

    and HE’S ROMNEY’S AZ CO-CHAIR

    As for Governor Jan Brewer, in 2011 she told CNN the “birther” issue is “just something I believe is leading our country down a path of destruction and it just is not serving any good.”

    Her spokesman, Matt Benson, said her position on the issue has not changed.

  69. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 22, 2012 at 11:55 pm #

    I can prove that they lied and fabricated evidence. I think Mark Gillar has admitted as much by now conceding they never had a 1961 code manual.

    I can prove that I’m right to normal people just by pointing to the State of Hawaii’s confirmation of all the data on the long form. That is powerful evidence.

    You can’t prove anything to birthers, and I think that is a point that I lose sight of in these discussions. Hanging the LIAR sign around Corsi’s neck really means nothing.

    As to proving that the code list Zullo presented differs from the Hawaiian internal codes, it remains to be seen if this can be done. I think that there is a strong likelihood that the answer is yes, but it may take time.

    Andy: I guess my question is, can you prove you’re right without Corsi admitting as much?

  70. avatar
    Wolf July 22, 2012 at 11:58 pm #

    john: Where does the CCP go from here? They should take all their information and submit to Congress as a criminal investigative complaint. I seriously doubt though Congress will touch it.

    Course not, why would they? Outside of loyal birther trolls, impartial observers following this entire birther choo choo train are well aware that these birther claims are bunk. Not to mention, it’s pritty darn evident that Arpaio and Corsi are politically motivated given their histories. What on earth made you think this so called investigation would go anywhere? Heck I don’t even believe Arpaio is truly all that invested in this, it serves as a distraction for this racial lawsuit mounted against him as well as a fundraising gimmick.

    If Obama gets a second term, and I am inclined to believe he will, bitherism will cease to excite many on the rightwing John. Maybe you could figure out as to the reasons of why that would be the case?

  71. avatar
    richCares July 23, 2012 at 12:03 am #

    for john’s benefit here’s the latest projections on the election
    INTRADE
    Obama 59.0 Romney 39.0
    .
    538
    Obama 68.0 Romney 32.0
    .
    when Obama wins, birthers will be rounded up for FEMA Camp 17

  72. avatar
    Arthur July 23, 2012 at 12:06 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The last comment is just being playful and poking the birthers. I have a pretty good idea what is on the pictured certificate. I’m not going to say because I am not sure. When I am sure, I will say

    Ok, thanks for the explanation. It’s good to be back in the loop.

  73. avatar
    misha July 23, 2012 at 12:18 am #

    richCares: when Obama wins, birthers will be rounded up for FEMA Camp 17

    Hey, eway adhay anway agreementway otnay otay illspay ethay eansbay. Opstay alkingtay.

  74. avatar
    justlw July 23, 2012 at 12:38 am #

    richCares: when Obama wins, birthers will be rounded up for FEMA Camp 17

    i’ve already got my lifetime viewer’s gallery pass! The first 1,000 are a holographic collectors’ edition, complete with a fully-detachable smiley-face signature by “Alvin Onaka.”

  75. avatar
    Feinne July 23, 2012 at 1:20 am #

    I kind of feel bad for the Birther True Believers (and not the con-artists who make a living fleecing them of course) because regardless of who wins in November they’ll have to suffer through something far more acute than any made up FEMA camp could be: knowing that they’re irrelevant. Knowing that everything they did for the last four years didn’t matter and that nobody cares what they have to say because either Obama won anyway and Congress once again certified him as eligible or Obama lost but will just leave office like every other defeated president instead of whatever frog-marching fantasy they have. There’s no plausible outcome in which they’re vindicated and no amount of retreating into delusion is going to save them from the reality that there will be an ordinary, run of the mill Presidential election with no socialist uprisings or masked terrorists declaring martial law and the eternal rule of the people under comrade Obama.

  76. avatar
    John Woodman July 23, 2012 at 1:52 am #

    justlw: Ah, our computer science retrospective is moving on from character sets to Indian-ness?

    If that field is Indian, it’s definitely big-Indian.

  77. avatar
    John Woodman July 23, 2012 at 1:54 am #

    Andy: I guess my question is, can you prove you’re right without Corsi admitting as much?

    He’s already proven it. Corsi has to produce the manual — the AUTHENTIC manual — and show that it says what he claims, or it is extremely and patently obvious that he’s a bald-faced liar.

    But I would say that given all of the circumstances and evidence, that appears obvious anyway.

  78. avatar
    sfjeff July 23, 2012 at 1:58 am #

    MARK ROCK: LIBERAL LOGIC:1) I WANT THE APPLE TO BE BLUE.2) THE SPECTROGRAPH MEASURES IT AS RED.3) THE APPLE ADMITS THAT IT IS RED.4) I DON’T CARE, I WANT IT TO BE BLUE, SO IT’S BLUE.

    Mark must be correct- he is writing all in caps.

  79. avatar
    foreigner July 23, 2012 at 2:09 am #

    the next to be convinced are the journalists.
    They were already unhappy with the big announced
    press conference and so little presented.
    Now that little was also partly wrong and not well researched.
    How many will come to the next press conference ?
    How many newspapers will report about it ?
    That’s probably how Corsi is thinking.

  80. avatar
    G July 23, 2012 at 2:23 am #

    Agreed.

    Dr. Conspiracy: You can’t prove anything to birthers, and I think that is a point that I lose sight of in these discussions. Hanging the LIAR sign around Corsi’s neck really means nothing.

  81. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 2:37 am #

    John Woodman: Andy: I guess my question is, can you prove you’re right without Corsi admitting as much?

    He’s already proven it. Corsi has to produce the manual — the AUTHENTIC manual — and show that it says what he claims, or it is extremely and patently obvious that he’s a bald-faced liar.

    But I would say that given all of the circumstances and evidence, that appears obvious anyway.

    Let Corsi present the document he claimed he had in his possession or explain himself.
    So far things do not look good but perhaps Corsi or others can explain?

  82. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 2:39 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I can prove that they lied and fabricated evidence. I think Mark Gillar has admitted as much by now conceding they never had a 1961 code manual.

    They did admit to this? Wow, what a scoop Doc. So they made a claim about the meaning of ‘9’ and claimed they had a 1961 manual that showed it to be ‘not stated’ but the actual document shown was for 1968?
    Something smells quite fishy. Time for some investigations? Or explanations? Perhaps Corsi or Zullo can explain? Or are they finger pointing right now?

  83. avatar
    G July 23, 2012 at 2:41 am #

    This was actually Arpiao/WND/Zullo’s third “press conference” attempt at this propaganda show.

    The first one was in March. That too didn’t present much and primarily just reguritated a bunch of long-debunked WND article based birther claims from the prior summer.

    That had the most press. They weren’t impressed, to say the least and the whole event was pretty much a dud. Where it received coverage, it was the same as such silly things always end up – as ridicule.

    The second press conference weeks later was such a dud that many people have forgotten about it. The mainstream press showed very little interest in even attending, so WND turned it into a “WND-TV” exclusive event and held it in a local church, with mainly the Surprise Tea Party as the audience. At the event, they pretty much presented the same failed nonsense as the first presser and didn’t add much more to it than a pathetic attempt by one of the local Birther congressmen to get signatures in support of Birther Bill legislation, which failed and just died in committee the following week.

    From Arpaio’s statements at this 3rd lame presser attempt, it didn’t sound like he has plans to try to pull this press conference angle again. He just repeated his pleas for Congress to take up the issue. Then again, he’s said this every time, but Congress has no intention of going along with this farce.

    So, while that is probably what Corsi was HOPING for, there really is no traction for these silly stories, outside of Birther websites and the same RWNJ talk radio sites that always blather to themselves about conspiracy nonsense…

    Of course WND has vested interest in trying to keep the story alive…and they are desperate to come up with some sort of “swiftboat” style smear, with the likely chance of Obama’s re-election looming… but there is really not much they can do here, since they’ve done so poorly on these last three outings.

    While I’m sure they’d love to do additional press conferences non-stop between now and the November election, I’m not even sure that they will be able to even pull off another one. There is only so far that a smoke-and-mirrors “investigation” can go, without taking any credible action that REAL investigations do all the time.

    foreigner:
    the next to be convinced are the journalists.
    They were already unhappy with the big announced
    press conference and so little presented.
    Now that little was also partly wrong and not well researched.
    How many will come to the next press conference ?
    How many newspapers will report about it ?
    That’s probably how Corsi is thinking.

  84. avatar
    US Citizen July 23, 2012 at 3:56 am #

    John Woodman: justlw: Ah, our computer science retrospective is moving on from character sets to Indian-ness?

    If that field is Indian, it’s definitely big-Indian.

    It’s big-indian because we took a most significant bite.

  85. avatar
    aarrgghh July 23, 2012 at 4:18 am #

    MARK ROCK NEEDS MORE CRACK.

    but don’t give him any.

  86. avatar
    The Magic M July 23, 2012 at 5:53 am #

    G: While I’m sure they’d love to do additional press conferences non-stop between now and the November election, I’m not even sure that they will be able to even pull off another one.

    I haven’t looked at WND for the past few days, but I’m pretty sure most birthers are in full denial mode and think “he’ll hold one more press conference right before the elections and has saved all the goodies for that one”. It would line up with many birthers who have claimed at least since early 2012 that “they” (either Arpaio or Romney or the Republican members of Congress or …) will “drop the bomb” close to the elections for optimal effect.

    I’m beginning to see parallels to how the Third Reich believed (or pretended to believe) that the already lost war would be overturned with their soon-to-be-ready miracle weapons. (In fact, up to today, right-wingers in Germany still claim that with just a few more weeks time, this would really have happened. They also believe that secret Nazi bases with superior technology exist in Antarctica, waiting for the right moment to take over the world.)

    So birthers will remain in denial until the elections (since many have deluded themselves into thinking that Obama will lose by a landslide, or has to declare martial law to avoid that). After that, I’m really curious what we will see – a lot of breakdowns or simply 4 more years of same-old same-old.

  87. avatar
    Lupin July 23, 2012 at 6:51 am #

    richCares: when Obama wins, birthers will be rounded up for FEMA Camp 17

    But before that, be forced to gay-marry.

  88. avatar
    Scientist July 23, 2012 at 7:39 am #

    Thrifty: I keep hearing you guys say this. Now I’m no Birther, but may I play devil’s advocate for a minute here and suggest that a heavily pregnant Stanley Ann Dunham never traveled to Kenya at all? Rather she was there for the duration of her pregnancy.

    Why would she spend her pregnancy in Kenya where she didn’t know anyone? With her Kenyan husband back in Hawaii? And not a single person in Kenya remembers the pregnant American wandering around by herself? There are no legends about it?

    I remember from undergraduate physics that the professor, in his discussion of Brownian motion, noted that since the direction of motion is random, there was a miniscule, but non-zero probability that all the molecules in a common object lying on a table would, at a given moment, be moving upwards and the object would spontaneously jump into the air. I have never seen that happen. Nor do I lose sleep worrying about it.

  89. avatar
    Thrifty July 23, 2012 at 7:49 am #

    What makes you think her husband wasn’t also there? Set aside motivations for a minute. People do a lot of things that I can’t understand. Like have children in the first place. But what I’m asking is how do we know that Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack Obama Senior weren’t in Kenya in 1961 and late 1960 for the duration of the pregnancy?

    Scientist: Why would she spend her pregnancy in Kenya where she didn’t know anyone? With her Kenyan husband back in Hawaii? And not a single person in Kenya remembers the pregnant American wandering around by herself? There are no legends about it?

  90. avatar
    Scientist July 23, 2012 at 7:52 am #

    The Magic M: I’m beginning to see parallels to how the Third Reich believed (or pretended to believe) that the already lost war would be overturned with their soon-to-be-ready miracle weapons.

    Of course, had the H-guy (forgot about the moderation) not dismissed relativity as “Jewish physics” and persecuted Jewish scientists there is a good chance that Germany would have developed the atomic bomb before the US, given that they were the undisputed world leader in physics in the pre-war period.

  91. avatar
    Scientist July 23, 2012 at 7:56 am #

    Thrifty: What makes you think her husband wasn’t also there? Set aside motivations for a minute. People do a lot of things that I can’t understand. Like have children in the first place. But what I’m asking is how do we know that Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack Obama Senior weren’t in Kenya in 1961 and late 1960 for the duration of the pregnancy?

    Immigration records show Obama Sr as not leaving the US between his original arrival and his final departure from Harvard. Foreign students arrivals and departures are tracked. He was also taking a full course load at U Hawaii (Including summer school in 1961, which ran into early August) and graduated ahead of schedule.

  92. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 23, 2012 at 8:04 am #

    Two things here. I have it on anecdotal authority that the Press is through with the Cold Case Posse’s last press conference. It had it’s day and they believe the story is over. They already said the Posse had been already debunked (correctly so) and they have moved on. If my article had come out sooner, it would have made the news, but that’s passed. WorldNetDaily will go on pumping their bilge ignoring or lying about it.

    Comments made by the Cold Case Posse suggest that they are done and that they aren’t planning anything else, saying that Congress has to take up the investigation. I presume that WND will begin pushing that angle from now on. The CCP could start again at any time, but they indicted otherwise.

    foreigner: the next to be convinced are the journalists.
    They were already unhappy with the big announced
    press conference and so little presented.
    Now that little was also partly wrong and not well researched.
    How many will come to the next press conference ?
    How many newspapers will report about it ?
    That’s probably how Corsi is thinking.

  93. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 23, 2012 at 8:16 am #

    Actually I see this almost every day. I will walk by something and it will leap off the table and throw itself onto the floor. Just yesterday afternoon I was in an antique store and a framed mirror about ten feet from me threw itself onto the floor. Stuff spontaneously starts rolling off counters. Papers fall off my desk. I tell you, it happens to me ALL the time. This why you don’t see this. It is quite rare and all the examples in the known universe happen around me.

    Scientist: I remember from undergraduate physics that the professor, in his discussion of Brownian motion, noted that since the direction of motion is random, there was a miniscule, but non-zero probability that all the molecules in a common object lying on a table would, at a given moment, be moving upwards and the object would spontaneously jump into the air. I have never seen that happen. Nor do I lose sleep worrying about it.

  94. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 23, 2012 at 8:20 am #

    My moderation filter is so sharp, you only have tthink Hitler for it to put the comment in moderation.

    Scientist: Of course, had the H-guy (forgot about the moderation)

  95. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 23, 2012 at 8:25 am #

    On or about the day the President was born, Obama Sr. was taking finals in a class he passed at Univ Hawaii. Also, his immigration file shows that he didn’t leave the US from 1959 until after the divorce. A statistical report from the INS showed that no US Citizen traveled by air starting in Kenya and arriving in the US for the entire year ending June 30, 1962. Stanley Ann Obama signed the President’s long form birth certificate in Honolulu on August 7, 1961 and we have a state-certified copy of that.

    So that’s how we know.

    Thrifty: But what I’m asking is how do we know that Stanley Ann Dunham and Barack Obama Senior weren’t in Kenya in 1961 and late 1960 for the duration of the pregnancy?

  96. avatar
    JPotter July 23, 2012 at 8:25 am #

    foreigner: the next to be convinced are the journalists.
    They were already unhappy with the big announced
    press conference and so little presented.
    Now that little was also partly wrong and not well researched.
    How many will come to the next press conference ?
    How many newspapers will report about it ?
    That’s probably how Corsi is thinking.

    Foreigner, Arpaio’s events, and before him WND’s own events before they employed Arpaio as front, already suffered from this problem. What press did show up was covering it as a goof, there to see just what the crazy people would say, how far they would go, how extreme they would become. No journalistic heavyweights present, no headlines, no front page stories.

  97. avatar
    JPotter July 23, 2012 at 8:33 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I tell you, it happens to me ALL the time. This why you don’t see this. It is quite rare and all the examples in the known universe happen around me.

    I have to tell you about my string theory: The chance that a string has tied itself into a knot (or that a hose has kinked, etc) approaches 100% as my distance from it approaches 0.

    All inanimate matter is possessed by gremlins … willful little demons in need of exorcism. 😉

  98. avatar
    Scientist July 23, 2012 at 8:40 am #

    foreigner: Aren’t you the guy who just yesterday wanted Congress to investigate and the White House to explain how they made the pdf (Ah, gee I probably put the document on the glass and hit “scan” says the intern in the copy room. And then I put the coffee in the filter and hit “brew”)? Look, this has all been b.s. from the start. There never was even a credible story for why a woman who lived in Hawaii would give birth in Kenya. It’s all made-up poop and always was.

  99. avatar
    Northland10 July 23, 2012 at 8:48 am #

    Any possible Presser on their “investigation” would depend on the status of the various civil rights cases against the Sheriff or if his campaign needs a late season bump.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Two things here. I have it on anecdotal authority that the Press is through with the Cold Case Posse’s last press conference. It had it’s day and they believe the story is over. They already said the Posse had been already debunked (correctly so) and they have moved on. If my article had come out sooner, it would have made the news, but that’s passed. WorldNetDaily will go on pumping their bilge ignoring or lying about it.

    Comments made by the Cold Case Posse suggest that they are done and that they aren’t planning anything else, saying that Congress has to take up the investigation. I presume that WND will begin pushing that anglefrom now on. The CCP could start again at any time, but they indicted otherwise.

  100. avatar
    Northland10 July 23, 2012 at 8:50 am #

    If I think about having Spam for lunch, will my comments be caught in the Spam filter?

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    My moderation filter is so sharp, you only have tthink Hitler for it to put the comment in moderation.

  101. avatar
    LMK July 23, 2012 at 8:57 am #

    John Woodman:
    The laughable thing is that one of Mark’s links completely refutes another of Mark’s links.

    Does this site have a resident shrink?

    Well, occasionally the resident shrink is in office. But birfers are below her pay schedule…

    I am shocked (I shouldn’t be … these are birfers!) that any birfer thinks that anything in this latest “investigation” was significant. Zullo kept contradicting himself and last weeks info contradicted previous birfer talking points!

  102. avatar
    foreigner July 23, 2012 at 9:32 am #

    Scientist,
    I still want it. WH declaring how the pdf was produced, congress examining it
    (starting with a small examination and only expanding if evidence shows up)
    Also the microfilm or such, if it can be produced easily – why not ?

  103. avatar
    Andy July 23, 2012 at 9:43 am #

    foreigner:
    Scientist,
    I still want it. WH declaring how the pdf was produced, congress examining it
    (starting with a small examination and only expanding if evidence shows up)
    Also the microfilm or such, if it can be produced easily – why not ?

    Because there is no requirement for the BC to be valid for Obama to be president.

  104. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 23, 2012 at 9:45 am #

    Apparently so.
    😉

    Northland10: If I think about having Spam for lunch, will my comments be caught in the Spam filter?

  105. avatar
    Thomas Brown July 23, 2012 at 9:48 am #

    Blockhead Birther Blunder of the Week: Mark calling liberals “Statists” and “Enemies of the State.”

  106. avatar
    Scientist July 23, 2012 at 9:53 am #

    foreigner: Scientist,I still want it. WH declaring how the pdf was produced, congress examining it(starting with a small examination and only expanding if evidence shows up)Also the microfilm or such, if it can be produced easily – why not ?

    Because no one cares what some guy in Germany wants. They think he should first ask Frau Merkel why she is determined to kill the world economy. That is what my well-placed sources have told me.

  107. avatar
    JPotter July 23, 2012 at 9:53 am #

    Thomas Brown: “Enemies of the State.”

    Well, he can’t say “Enemies of the People” …. that just sounds way too pink 😉

    There’s the state that is (of which we are all ‘-ists’), and The State that exists only in his mind … it’s both a libertarian playground and a thought-controlling, dystopic hell of state-enforced homogeneity. That circle squares …. only in his mind.

  108. avatar
    JPotter July 23, 2012 at 9:54 am #

    foreigner: I still want it.

    “I want it! I want it! I want it!”

    Foreign mice are like domestic mice. Mice want cookies.

  109. avatar
    donna July 23, 2012 at 10:02 am #

    Scientist,: why not ?

    why would they? congress is not interested nor could they criminally prosecute anyone –

    az REPUBLICAN senators kyl and mccain are not weighing in – at least six AZ U.S. Representatives don’t care

    az’s sec of state and governor are sticking with their previous positions

    the people in az who could saber rattle are not

    the microfilm? never happening –

    how would releasing it not violate the privacy of other people?

    and “Although microforms have a very long storage life, they are prone to deterioration. The quality of the text or images degrade over time, unlike digital formats which stay in perfect condition. The film on microforms can also deteriorate in certain climates and conditions.”

    about microfilm: http://www.shorelinerecordsmanagement.com/customer-service/education-center/guide-to-microforms/

  110. avatar
    foreigner July 23, 2012 at 10:33 am #

    why do you ask why ?
    they could find a way to show microfilm or BCs or data without violating privacy

  111. avatar
    donna July 23, 2012 at 10:39 am #

    foreigner: “they could find a way to show microfilm or BCs or data without violating privacy”

    yeah yeah and then the next conspiracies would be born –

    if the film was degraded and data missing, then what?

    if they did “find a way” and the film was clipped, birthers would say it was edited and ask to see what was on the film before and after obama’s birth

    we have ALL seen this movie before and can anticipate what’s in the sequel

  112. avatar
    Thrifty July 23, 2012 at 10:40 am #

    Okay cool. Thanks Doc and Scientist (and one other fella who responded to my inquiries but it’s buried somewhere further up). I was always satisfied that Birtherism was bunk based purely on the 2 birth certificates and the statements made by Onaka, Fukino, Lingle, and Abercrombie. I wasn’t quite satisfied with the explanations that a Kenya birth would be physically impossible, so I had to play a little devil’s advocate.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    On or about the day the President was born, Obama Sr. was taking finals in a class he passed at Univ Hawaii. Also, his immigration file shows that he didn’t leave the US from 1959 until after the divorce. A statistical report from the INS showed that no US Citizen traveled by air starting in Kenya and arriving in the US for the entire year ending June 30, 1962. Stanley Ann Obama signed the President’s long form birth certificate in Honolulu on August 7, 1961 and we have a state-certified copy of that.

    So that’s how we know.

  113. avatar
    The Magic M July 23, 2012 at 10:45 am #

    Scientist: Of course, had the H-guy (forgot about the moderation) not dismissed relativity as “Jewish physics” and persecuted Jewish scientists there is a good chance that Germany would have developed the atomic bomb before the US, given that they were the undisputed world leader in physics in the pre-war period.

    That’s the irony – it shows that when you go from advancing a conspiracy theory for political purposes to actually *believing* in it, you’re bound to shoot yourself in the foot.

    That’s why I think Corsi may actually believe what he says. If he had simply set this up as another swiftboating, he would have made sure to have no direct connections to the CCP, let alone be actively involved in their procurement of evidence.

    And while it is said that the best liar is the one who actually believes in his own lies, with a lie that big you’re not doing yourself a favour by straying off the well-prepared path.
    I could probably trick a lie detector into showing as “true” my claim that I dated Heidi Klum two decades back, but I couldn’t pull off claiming everyone who ever made it in Hollywood in the last 20 years had to sleep with me first. Sooner or later my hybris would get the better of me.

  114. avatar
    justlw July 23, 2012 at 10:47 am #

    Scientist: I remember from undergraduate physics that the professor, in his discussion of Brownian motion, noted that since the direction of motion is random, there was a miniscule, but non-zero probability that all the molecules in a common object lying on a table would, at a given moment, be moving upwards and the object would spontaneously jump into the air.I have never seen that happen.Nor do I lose sleep worrying about it.

    It may have practical applications, as Douglas Adams once explained: http://hitch14.tripod.com/chapter_10.htm

  115. avatar
    JPotter July 23, 2012 at 10:49 am #

    foreigner: they could find a way to show microfilm or BCs or data without violating privacy

    Well, let’s have a little logic test there. The birther’s point of demanding—uh, politely requesting microfilm or -fiche (if any exists) is the contention that there would be an image of Obama’s birth certificate on the same roll or sheet as dozens of others, which could all be independently verified.

    Assuming there is microfilm/-fiche to be had, to protect privacy, BCs not already made public (presumably every one of them other than Obama’s) would need to be redacted. That would make them tough to verify, now wouldn’t it? Even if only released to a selected investigator, what happened to the rights of all the people represented by those certificates? I don’t want random people looking at mine without my knowledge! Especially not birthers. You think any birther will accept the word of any non-birthers? You think any birther will verify anything that contradicts birtherism?

    Redacted or not, any such microfilm/-fiche would be declared a forgery by de birfers before the first sentence of any such announcement was uttered. See how that magic denialism works? Their only interest is in rewinding the clock to Nov 2008 and having a do-over.

    I think the birthers should start by documenting that there is any microfilm or -fiche in existence. The only such collections I am aware of are of older documents, pre-WWII, served up for genalogical research. If Hawaii did create an archive of microforms, would they have saved it after digitizing all BC data? Why keep a paper archive, a microfowm archive, and a digital archive? Think of all those libraries that dumped their card catalogs. (and the price those sweet card cabinets command on the secondary market!)

    _______

    “Shee-yo uzzzz the micruh-fim. Shee-yo uzzzz the micruh-fim.”

    —Joe Arpaio, 2012
    (it never gets old!)

  116. avatar
    justlw July 23, 2012 at 10:58 am #

    foreigner:
    I still want it. WH declaring how the pdf was produced, congress examining it
    (starting with a small examination and only expanding if evidence shows up)
    Also the microfilm or such, if it can be produced easily – why not ?

    My product team has a saying, almost certainly not unique to them: “We can do anything. But we can’t do everything.”

    There’s a term for this: opportunity cost, or how much it costs you to do X in terms of not being able to do Y as a consequence, because you’ve now tied up resources, money, time, political capital, mindshare, or what have you.

    You have to weigh the benefit of doing a thing against its cost. As many people have explained, there is little benefit to doing these particular things (well, I hear one person who cannot vote in US elections rilly rilly “wants it”). There is a cost, monetary and otherwise.

    So the real question has to be: “Why?” There has been no good answer given.

  117. avatar
    donna July 23, 2012 at 11:08 am #

    birthers only have to remember the microfilm of the birth announcements in the newspapers to see what else was on the film …. an entire page of announcements of other people – but that’s PUBLIC info and not private

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/ObamaBirthStarBulletin.jpg

  118. avatar
    foreigner July 23, 2012 at 11:22 am #

    donna,
    –> don’t solve any problem because a bigger one will always appear ?
    —————————
    JPotter, it could be a (or two..) trusted registrar from another state or such.
    with computer you can also easily anonymize records, so to demonstrate
    the certificate number is ok or what codes were used etc.
    Release the BCs 1959-1967 in the form as from 1968-2009, which are online.
    Many birthers already said, the microfilm would satisfy them.
    The feds got the BCs on microfilm from Hawaii and typed them on punchcards.
    I’m not sure whether they only got the even numbered, though.
    (the posse should have examined that !)
    —————————–
    justlw, what are the costs of explaining how the pdf was created,
    what microfilms and computer tapes they have etc. ?
    They should enter into a discussion and birthers should pay
    for the examinations which they want.

  119. avatar
    bovril July 23, 2012 at 11:26 am #

    There is of course the minor issue that there is bugger all proof that there is any such microfilm/fiche.

    The longer form BC was printed from a bound book.

    The HDoH has stated on numerous occassions that said bound book has been secured and kept under lock and key

    At no point have the HDoH mentioned, alluded or commented on the existence of microfilm/fiche

    What proof if any is there that this majical micro-fishie exists..?

  120. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 23, 2012 at 11:26 am #

    The first is plainly illegal under Hawaiian law. The state of Hawaii has already verified Obama’s birth certificate in writing. There’s no reason for them to play birther games.

    foreigner: JPotter, it could be a (or two..) trusted registrar from another state or such.
    with computer you can also easily anonymize records, so to demonstrate
    the certificate number is ok or what codes were used etc.

  121. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 23, 2012 at 11:28 am #

    There has to be a backup copy for disaster recovery. It’s unthinkable to be otherwise.

    bovril: At no point have the HDoH mentioned, alluded or commented on the existence of microfilm/fiche

    What proof if any is there they this majical micro-fishie exists..?

  122. avatar
    Rickey July 23, 2012 at 11:35 am #

    The “unnamed” birth certificate from August, 1961 proves one other thing – that the codes for box 12b (Kind of Business or Industry) were different than the codes for race. We know this because boxes 9, 12b and 14 are each coded “3.” It is fairly obviously that the races in boxes 9 and 14 were typed in as (American) Indian. “American Indian” is not a business or industry, and whatever word is in box 12b clearly is shorter than the words in boxes 9 and 14.

    The birthers have tried to make a big deal about the fact that the number 9 appears next to both box 12b and 14 on Obama’s LFBC, but now we have another example of a Hawaii birth certificate where the same number appears next to both boxes. So it is not an anomaly, it is simply a function of two different categories having two different sets of codes.

  123. avatar
    justlw July 23, 2012 at 11:37 am #

    foreigner: justlw, what are the costs of explaining how the pdf was created,
    what microfilms and computer tapes they have etc. ?
    They should enter into a discussion and birthers should pay
    for the examinations which they want.

    The primary cost I’m thinking of is that people who are paid to do their job are pulled off to do something completely different. In these days of reduced staff and slashed budgets, this may be a non-recoverable cost.

    Yes, I hear you saying that the birthers could just cough up with the money, but it’s not just money. This has to be done by trained personnel. Even if you hire someone new, there are costs associated with the hiring, the training, the paperwork, and so on.

    And again: the gross return on this is zero, because no one but birthers really care, and this will not change their minds. They will immediately declare this to be rigged, and ask for the “double-secret vault microfilm” or somesuch. We know this. We’ve seen this movie before.

    So, measurable cost. No benefit.

  124. avatar
    JPotter July 23, 2012 at 11:37 am #

    foreigner: JPotter, it could be a (or two..) trusted registrar from another state or such.
    with computer you can also easily anonymize records, so to demonstrate
    the certificate number is ok or what codes were used etc.

    Let me introduce you to the history of the birther’s claims, requests, and their reactions to appeasement….

    foreigner: Many birthers already said, the microfilm would satisfy them.

    Many birthers said “the” birth certificate would satisy them.

    Many of the same birthers then said “the long form” birth certificate would satisy them.

    Many of the same birthers now say a microform of the “long form” birth certificate will satisy them.

    And many birthers also continue to say that they want college records, dental impressions, DNA test, used grocery store coupons, traffic citations, movie tickets, blah, blah, whatever they can think of ….. but at least in these claims they are more honest, and make no promise of being satisfied by them. 😉

  125. avatar
    justlw July 23, 2012 at 11:44 am #

    foreigner: what are the costs of explaining how the pdf was created

    Oh, I forgot to add: for this, the opportunity cost I was thinking of was in terms of the news cycle. This late in the campaign, the Obama team wants to spend their time in front of the press wisely. This is not a wise use of their time, and is not recoverable by asking the birthers for money.

    Not to mention that discussing the underlying components of the PDF is and always has been pointless. My new analogy:

    If you see a notice posted on a cork board, and spend all your energy complaining that it’s not a legitimate notice because the “cork board” is actually a piece of styrofoam painted to look like cork: you just may be a birther.

  126. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 23, 2012 at 11:46 am #

    I don’t mind people asking for information. I mind people asking who don’t want information.

    Thrifty: I wasn’t quite satisfied with the explanations that a Kenya birth would be physically impossible, so I had to play a little devil’s advocate.

  127. avatar
    Lupin July 23, 2012 at 12:01 pm #

    Scientist: Because no one cares what some guy in Germany wants. They think he should first ask Frau Merkel why she is determined to kill the world economy. That is what my well-placed sources have told me.

    Hear, hear!

    You know, he is the LEAST German of all the Germans I’ve ever met. 🙂

  128. avatar
    justlw July 23, 2012 at 12:25 pm #

    foreigner: if it can be produced easily – why not ?

    I’m just bursting with analogies today.

    Let’s say that you come up with a cool idea to surprise one of your children — how about if someone from the US White House could read her a story you’d recently heard about?

    So, you put in your request. You’re not asking for anything unreasonable; it’s not like you’re saying the president should do this, just a low-level staffer would suffice. Not in person, even — just over the phone!

    And it’s a very short story, and you’ll send them a check to compensate for their time. They could even do a nice press conference, demonstrating to the world how warm and caring they are. And your daughter and you will be exposed to a charming story with an important message. Everyone wins!

    Study questions:

    1. Do you think the White House will say “yes” ?
    2. Why or why not?
    3. Do you think the White House should say yes?
    4. Why or why not?

  129. avatar
    foreigner July 23, 2012 at 12:32 pm #

    DrC,
    the reason for Hawaii to play birther games could be that FOIA or if Obama requires it.
    Or if the people require it, lots of requests for BCs, questions coming up.
    What exactly Hawaii laws say, I don’t know. But I’d be surprised if no way could be found.
    Ask birthers for a legal way, what would satisfy them.
    Make a new blog entry, what would birthers satisfy 😉
    ———————–
    justlw,
    let’s examine some scenarios, what is doable, what it costs and whether it would satisfy birthers.
    Has it been done ? The posse was not very successful
    ———————-
    jPotter,
    we talked about it before. There was the problem with the pdf and such.
    And most were satisfied, Trump gave up.
    We can ask them in advance what would satisfy them.
    ———————
    justlw,
    Obama should benefit. He wants to satisfy the birthers has more important things to do,
    so we do it for him.
    ——————————-

  130. avatar
    justlw July 23, 2012 at 12:34 pm #

    foreigner: justlw,
    let’s examine some scenarios, what is doable, what it costs and whether it would satisfy birthers.

    Let’s not. I have a day job. The opportunity cost has now exceeded my amusement value.

    (See how this works?)

  131. avatar
    JPotter July 23, 2012 at 12:35 pm #

    JPotter: at least in these claims they are more honest

    I should have said, “relatively more honest” as the endless birthers pleadings for a boundless galaxy of Obamanalia are all particles in a smokescreen. Their only wish is for Obama and his Presidency to wink out of existence (believe me, even his arrest and televised execution would not satisfy them! they would then pursue his legacy, then any associated philosphies, memes, ideas, persons who are partial to them …. any sop, no matter how grand, would merely embolden them to ask for more!). Since that isn’t happening unless someone or something starts flying around the sun backwards (haha), we shall have them and their ramblings with us … always.

  132. avatar
    misha July 23, 2012 at 12:37 pm #

    foreigner: I still want it.

    Yeah, and I want a pony.

    Don’t hold your breath. On second thought…

  133. avatar
    JPotter July 23, 2012 at 12:37 pm #

    foreigner: Trump gave up.

    Yeah, you might want to call Trump about that!

    Concern Troll Foreigner is concerned.

    And this warrior needs food.

  134. avatar
    Paper July 23, 2012 at 12:43 pm #

    See my comment on another post about how you yourself might proceed if this were about you yourself, and Corsi and friends were just your neighbors making some spurious not-in-good-faith slur about you. Would you then be talking about what would satisfy them after you already resolved the issue, demonstrated your innocence to any reasonable standard?

    foreigner:
    DrC,
    the reason for Hawaii to play birther games could be that FOIA or if Obama requires it.
    Or if the people require it, lots of requests for BCs, questions coming up.
    What exactly Hawaii laws say, I don’t know. But I’d be surprised if no way could be found.
    Ask birthers for a legal way, what would satisfy them.
    Make a new blog entry, what would birthers satisfy
    ———————–
    justlw,
    let’s examine some scenarios, what is doable, what it costs and whether it would satisfy birthers.
    Has it been done ? The posse was not very successful
    ———————-
    jPotter,
    we talked about it before. There was the problem with the pdf and such.
    And most were satisfied, Trump gave up.
    We can ask them in advance what would satisfy them.
    ———————
    justlw,
    Obama should benefit. He wants to satisfy the birthers has more important things to do,
    so we do it for him.
    ——————————-

  135. avatar
    Scientist July 23, 2012 at 12:44 pm #

    foreigner: We can ask them in advance what would satisfy them.

    Who would you ask? No one speaks for the birthers.

    Besides, I do NOT want to satiisfy the birthers. I ENJOY their misery and suffering. I hope they continue to experience grief as long for as they live.

  136. avatar
    misha July 23, 2012 at 12:44 pm #

    Scientist: Of course, had the H-guy (forgot about the moderation) not dismissed relativity as “Jewish physics”

    Plus Adolf Schicklgruber and Joseph Goebbels called psychiatry the “Jewish science.”

  137. avatar
    Benji Franklin July 23, 2012 at 12:47 pm #

    No government could survive needing the personal, individually prescribed approval by every citizen of it’s interpretation of the Constitution and it’s method of verifying vital statistics information. Survival of a nation being an unwritten priority that supercedes any other conventional constitutional mandate, that’s why government establishes a reasonable standard for verifying vital statistics and lets the action or inaction of the judiciary provisionally settle all questions related to interpreting the language of the Constitution.

    It’s worked just fine in Obama’s case, and every responsible citizen, whether they support Obama or not politically, is satisfied that he is Constitutionally eligible to the Presidency.

    That being said, all of these Birther crybabies need to shove their moving goalposts all the way up their tear ducts.

  138. avatar
    bovril July 23, 2012 at 12:50 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: There has to be a backup copy for disaster recovery. It’s unthinkable to be otherwise.

    Doc,

    I’m not disagreeing that for DR/BCP purposes there would need to be a secured back up of the data.

    The point I am making is that only the song n dance team of Zullo-Corsi and their muppet Arpaio have ever mentioned a microfilm/fiche.

    For all anyone is aware Hawai’ may keep all it’s backup data in pure electronic WORM form or carved on slabs of obsidian or micro-engraved on a million pin heads.

    Not allowing the LSOS from the birfoon community to drive their agenda with some made up, plucked from their nether regions outright guess or lie (see Daily Pen passim) is my point.

  139. avatar
    misha July 23, 2012 at 1:00 pm #

    Scientist: Besides, I do NOT want to satiisfy the birthers. I ENJOY their misery and suffering. I hope they continue to experience grief as long for as they live.

    I hope it keeps them up all night. I hope Orly Taitz has a full breakdown on world television.

    I feel rachmonis for Loretta Lynn; not so much for Orly.

  140. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 1:11 pm #

    foreigner:
    justlw, what are the costs of explaining how the pdf was created,
    what microfilms and computer tapes they have etc. ?
    They should enter into a discussion and birthers should pay
    for the examinations which they want.

    Why? If foolish people want to harass our President, why should we take notice or even encourage such foolishness? We already know that no amount of evidence is going to change their minds.

  141. avatar
    Jim July 23, 2012 at 1:36 pm #

    YOU MIGHT BE A BIRTHER

    A possible new routine for Jeff Foxworthy…try reading using his voice inflections.

    “If you think Joe Arpaio cares one whit about President Obama’s eligibility, you might be a birther”
    “If you think a pregnant 18 year-old would leave her mother, father, friends, and husband to have a baby in a 3rd world country she’s never been to before, you might be a birther”
    “If you think the Hawaii DOH would break their own laws just because Mike Zullo says they did, you might be a birther”
    “If you think Orly Taitz is one of the preeminent legal minds in our country, you might be a birther”
    “If you think the people claiming forgery are considered experts in the field of forgery, you might be a birther”
    “If you think the truth is what’s important to Jerome Corsi, you might be a birther”
    “If you think World Net Daily is a good source for accurate news, you might be a birther”
    “If you think Mario Apuzzo in a Constitutional expert, you might be a birther”
    “If you think that losing over 130 cases against no wins means you must be right, you might be a birther”
    “If you think an African would call himself a negro, you might be a birther”
    “If you think your best proof of a forgery is using the wrong table to read the coding on a birth certificate, you might be a birther”
    “If you think every Judge in the country is corrupt just because they disagree with you, you might be a birther”
    “If you think overthrowing the constitution is the only way to save the constitution, you might be a birther”
    “If you think Joseph Farah is one of the top editors in the country, you might be a birther”
    “If you think that there has been a conspiracy involving thousands of people, State agencies, federal agencies and the courts that has spanned over 50 years, you might be a birther”
    “If you don’t think President Obama has been thoroughly vetted by his opponents with hundreds of millions of dollars at their disposal, you might be a birther”
    “If you think President Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii without a single piece of evidence he was born anywhere else, you might be a birther”
    “If you believe Joe Arpaio was doing a true investigation of President Obama, you might be a birther”
    “If you believe that all President Obama has to do is release one more thing and the accusations will end, you might be a birther”
    “If you believe all this hooplah about the President isn’t about the color of his skin, you might be a birther”
    “If you believe “because we think so” is proof the Cold Case Posse has found a damning piece of evidence, you might be a birther”
    “If you believe that the White House would post a forgery of a document where all the information matches exactly what is on record with the State of Hawaii, you might be a birther”
    “If you believe that Barack Obama Sr. is not the father of Barack Obama II and the President’s mother just named him that way because she thought it was a nice name, you might be a birther”
    “If you believe the reason WND is pursuing this so hard is for the country and not for money, you might be a birther”
    “If you think that over 50 years ago, President Obama and his family went through all this trouble before the civil rights era because they were sure that a half-black child would become President, you might be a birther”
    “If, after all this time and all this lack of evidence against the President you still believe he is not eligible for the office, you definitely ARE A BIRTHER

  142. avatar
    JPotter July 23, 2012 at 1:36 pm #

    foreigner: There was the problem with the pdf and such.

    The White house is responsible for educating the ignorant on anything and everything they do not understand? Hysterical, seeing as how, in this case, the ignorant coincide with the crowd that whines about a “nanny state”. No, it is the duty of every person to educate themselves and make informed decisions.

  143. avatar
    JPotter July 23, 2012 at 1:51 pm #

    Scientist: Besides, I do NOT want to satiisfy the birthers. I ENJOY their misery and suffering. I hope they continue to experience grief as long for as they live.

    I’ll triple down on that. This is a humorous distraction for me, but any attempt by any responsible governing party to please the birthers is a theft from the country. An attempt to fill a bottomless pit. Talk about sunk costs!

    Foreigner, I have a line on some blackhole-front property in Arizona …. you interested?

    Speaking more broadly, since birtherism is but a front for the long-term phobias of the far right, I will always be happier when the wingnuts are gnashing their teeth on the sidelines. The country is better off when they are shut out. Anytime they’re enabled or allowed to indulge their nutteries, destruction and waste ensues. With a group whose 3 principle philosophies are NIMBY, SLASEP, and HaTCEIT, it’s bound to happen.

    For fun on the way to lunch I pondered how letting the wingers have free reign would work. Everything on the table, no holds barred. Similar to the end of WarGames, all scenarios quickly escalated to religious war.

  144. avatar
    JD Reed July 23, 2012 at 1:53 pm #

    P>If you see a notice posted on a cork board, and spend all your energy complaining that it’s not a legitimate notice because the “cork board” is actually a piece of styrofoam painted to look like cork: you just may be a birther.

    Doc, might this be a great quote of the day?

  145. avatar
    foreigner July 23, 2012 at 2:40 pm #

    paper, yes.
    (making some spurious not-in-good-faith slur about you)
    happened here, happened at fogbow, I’m still here,
    proved my innocence and credentials
    ————————-
    scientist, the main birthers.
    Corsi,Arpaio,Zullo,Zebest,Gillar,..
    and the people in the birther forums/blogs
    > I ENJOY their misery and suffering.
    bad scientist
    ———————————–
    bovril,
    let’s ask them. Hawaii,Hyattsville. (whether they have microfilms
    or computer-records)
    is it FOIA-able ?
    ——————————-
    you want the truth and the data and the birthers want it.
    Cooperate !
    (excluding scientist,nbc and those people – who needs them)
    ——————————
    jPotter,
    not “responsible”, but they should show good will and explain nevertheless.
    In their own interest. You Americans always only think : revenche
    ——————————

    ——————————-

  146. avatar
    Scientist July 23, 2012 at 2:50 pm #

    foreigner: scientist, the main birthers.
    Corsi,Arpaio,Zullo,Zebest,Gillar,..
    and the people in the birther forums/blogs

    It is long standing US policy under administrations of both parties to never negotiate with terrorists.

  147. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 2:54 pm #

    Scientist: It is long standing US policy under administrations of both parties to never negotiate with terrorists.

    ROTFL… Or fools

  148. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 2:56 pm #

    foreigner: you want the truth and the data and the birthers want it.
    Cooperate !
    (excluding scientist,nbc and those people – who needs them)

    The birthers do not want the truth foreigner, that they have shown more than once when rejecting the evidence in favor of their fears and ignorance.

    All I can do is present the facts, what people decide to do with it shows their sincerity.

  149. avatar
    foreigner July 23, 2012 at 3:05 pm #

    bad policy, not to negotiate with anybody
    —————————-
    birthers say they want the truth

  150. avatar
    JPotter July 23, 2012 at 3:07 pm #

    foreigner: not “responsible”, but they should show good will and explain nevertheless.

    They already did, to the press, on live television. They documented how the LFBC was acquired, when, and by whom. They stated they scanned one and uploaded the image to the White House website. Done.

    Please find the quote function.

  151. avatar
    JPotter July 23, 2012 at 3:10 pm #

    foreigner: birthers say they want the truth

    And you choose to take the birthers at their word, but not that of anyone else? Oopsie.

    Do you guys out yourselves on purpose, or is it just fate?

    Not negotiating with the disingenuous works pretty well. From our perspective. Ask the Somali pirates.

  152. avatar
    Scientist July 23, 2012 at 3:10 pm #

    foreigner: birthers say they want the truth

    That must be why they have lied on so many occasions, I guess.

  153. avatar
    Paper July 23, 2012 at 3:12 pm #

    So you would think you would extend the same thinking to the President. Unless you would like to fund an extensive investigation into your punctuation, where we hit experts and researchers, because your lack of capitalization seems suspiciously ungermanic. Which then leads to speculation that you are not German, that you are using a German ip address to hide your true identity, as a paid member of Corsi’s team to pretend to be reasonable and troll the internets trying to convince people that Birthers can be satisfied, that they should be treated as if they are acting in good faith.

    I don’t care about any of that. But you see how it works?

    There is a natural cut-off point where reasonable enquiry rests its case. You are welcome to pursue rabbit-holes on your own time, or even in a forum such as this, but arguing that despicable people obviously operating in bad faith should be indulged until they are (never) satisfied is not a reasonable request. It is not a fair request. It is not a realistic request. It is not a politically intelligent request. To act upon such a request is foolish and a waste of time. It is also is destructive. It is catering to destructive forces who don’t actually care what the truth is.

    But feel free to spend your life trying to prove that you are not a birther in disguise. I don’t myself care one way or another, as I say. Because I am just focused on this one point, regardless of what you otherwise think about the President’s birth. More to the point, I only bother to respond as part of my own growth and education. By responding I understand my own thinking better.

    Nobody of good faith thinks the PDF is relevant or matters one bit.

    foreigner:
    paper, yes.
    (making some spurious not-in-good-faith slur about you)
    happened here, happened at fogbow, I’m still here,
    proved my innocence and credentials

  154. avatar
    MattR July 23, 2012 at 3:15 pm #

    foreigner: birthers say they want the truth

    Their actions indicate otherwise. As but one example of a continual pattern, President Obama released his birth certificate but birthers could not take it on face value so they had to examine it so they could verify its authenticity. The Cold Case Posse announces that they have the 1961 Code Manual that shows it the birth certificateis a forgery as well as a conversation with Verna Lee backing that up, yet no birther is inisisting that both of those things are made public in their entirety so that they can be verified.

  155. avatar
    foreigner July 23, 2012 at 3:21 pm #

    it’s a base for cooperation
    get the data

    I found much good data on birther sites

  156. avatar
    JOHN WAYNE July 23, 2012 at 3:25 pm #

    NBC IS THE NATIONAL BABOON COMMISSION, A PAID OBUMMER BLOGGER. Obummer will loose. My neighbor voted for Obummer, thought he was GOD. Now,, he cries every night, he lost his job because of Obummer, the Commie. Obummer, who needs FULL TIME nbc PROFESSIONAL BLOGGERS. These professional bloggers are scum of the Earth… DON’T TREAD ON ME !!!!!!
    Paul Revere, OBUMMER IS COMING, OBUMMER IS COMING!!!!!!

    Results of the poll conducted by Komarovski show:89.6% believe that Obama was not born in the US and not eligible, 10.4% believe that he was born in the US and eligible

    READ PRAVDA FOR THE TRUTH. The commie newspaper rips OBUMMER FOR HIS FORGED BIRTH CERTIFICATE, FORGED 1890 SSN NUMBER, AND HIS FORGED DRAFT REGISTRATION !!!!

    LOL LOL LOL LOL

    A commie newspaper actually telling the truth, OBUMMER IS A USURPER !!!!!!

    DON’T TREAD ON ME ~~~~!!!!!!!!!!

  157. avatar
    Arthur July 23, 2012 at 3:32 pm #

    This John Wayne character is an upper-case idiot. He’s been trolling at nbc’s site and now has found yours. Recommend moderation.

  158. avatar
    Arthur July 23, 2012 at 3:33 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE: Results of the poll conducted by Komarovski show:89.6% believe that Obama was not born in the US and not eligible, 10.4% believe that he was born in the US and eligible

    What a fool believes.

  159. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 3:35 pm #

    Arthur: This John Wayne character is an upper-case idiot. He’s been trolling at nbc’s site and now has found yours. Recommend moderation.

    His foolishness is not limited to uppercase 😉

  160. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 3:36 pm #

    foreigner: I found much good data on birther sites

    Which is why one looks at all the sites. But what is mostly absent at the birther sites is an objective and factual analysis of the data.

  161. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 3:38 pm #

    foreigner: birthers say they want the truth

    No the only truth they want is what confirms their foolish believes. Just look at the history. And learn.

    If the birthers wanted the truth, they would since long have abandoned their foolish notions. One does not negotiate with fools when they show themselves to be impervious to facts that contradict their fears.

  162. avatar
    Paper July 23, 2012 at 3:38 pm #

    The mistake is thinking they deserve cooperation, as well as thinking they care about truth.

    foreigner:
    it’s a base for cooperation

  163. avatar
    G July 23, 2012 at 3:44 pm #

    Agreed.

    The Magic M: So birthers will remain in denial until the elections (since many have deluded themselves into thinking that Obama will lose by a landslide, or has to declare martial law to avoid that). After that, I’m really curious what we will see – a lot of breakdowns or simply 4 more years of same-old same-old.

  164. avatar
    Paper July 23, 2012 at 3:48 pm #

    There may be some individuals who feel sincere to themselves that they only want truth, or just pursuing details reasonably. The birther who has threatened my life believes he just cares about the truth. But in some form, shape or fashion, one has to accept the big lie to keep on going down the rabbit hole thinking that that matters, or that the government should cater to such people of bad faith.

  165. avatar
    G July 23, 2012 at 4:00 pm #

    Why do you believe them? The evidence so far shows otherwise.

    You are just being a Concern Troll and appeaser of nonsense. You cannot make an actual case to defend your positions. Therefore, your questions are laughably not-thought out at best and dishonest at worst.

    foreigner:
    bad policy, not to negotiate with anybody
    —————————-
    birthers say they want the truth

  166. avatar
    JOHN WAYNE July 23, 2012 at 4:01 pm #

    PRAVDA THE COMMUNIST NEWSPAPER RIPS OBUMMER

    PRAVDA THE COMMUNIST NEWSPAPER RIPS OBUMMER

    n March 7th, 2012, Pravda called out the U.S. press for its deliberate neglect of the largest scandal in modern American history. Maricopa County, Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio released credible forensic evidence that Barack Obama, presumed President of the United States, presented to the world a forged Birth Certificate on April 27th, 2011.
    Since then, the scandal has only expanded. Former United States Postal Service worker Allen Hulton has recently come forward with compelling testimony given under Oath, which leads to only one conclusion: Barack Obama attended College in the United States as a Foreign Student.

    DON’T TREAD ON ME !!!
    NBC *NATIONAL BABOON COMMISSION*******

  167. avatar
    G July 23, 2012 at 4:02 pm #

    Well said!

    JPotter: And you choose to take the birthers at their word, but not that of anyone else?Oopsie.

    Do you guys out yourselves on purpose, or is it just fate?

    Not negotiating with the disingenuous works pretty well. From our perspective. Ask the Somali pirates.

  168. avatar
    Jim July 23, 2012 at 4:06 pm #

    foreigner:
    it’s a base for cooperation
    get the data

    I found much good data on birther sites

    Cooperation is a 2-way street. Hawaii cooperates and gets accused of committing a felony. President cooperates and gets accused of committing fraud. Hospital cooperates and gets called a liar. Seems to me that cooperating isn’t the answer.

  169. avatar
    G July 23, 2012 at 4:08 pm #

    LOL! Such as…?

    Again, you merely out yourself as the gullible birther Concern Troll that you are.

    “good data”…ROTFL… that’s a hoot.

    Sounds like your brain lacks the ability to discern between quality of sources… you continually show poor judgment skills. You would be an easy mark for any con artist, since you can’t distinuish between the credibility of real organizations and random strangers spouting conspiracy claims on the internet…

    foreigner: I found much good data on birther sites

  170. avatar
    G July 23, 2012 at 4:09 pm #

    Agreed. He adds nothing on topic and just yammers on like a diseased mental patient.

    Arthur:
    This John Wayne character is an upper-case idiot. He’s been trolling at nbc’s site and now has found yours. Recommend moderation.

  171. avatar
    dunstvangeet July 23, 2012 at 4:16 pm #

    foreigner, yes they say they want the truth, but their continual moving of the goal-posts suggests otherwise. What are they suppose to say, “I don’t really want the truth. Truth-be-****ed, this Obama person is illegitimate, and no matter what comes out, he’s ineligible.” That’s what their actions suggest. Their “wanting the truth” is just a wisp of smoke that they put up to try to cover what they truly believe, because if they stated what they truly believe, they would soon realize that they look as foolish as the what people see them as. Let’s see a little-bit of their history.

    First, they say that Obama’s middle name is Mohammad, and that he was born in Kenya in 2008. They say that if Obama would just release his birth certificate, this would be all over. “We just want the truth,” they say. So, Obama in June of 2008 releases his official Hawaii State Birth Certificate. He scans it into his website, and sends it to various news organizations. He then invites news organizations to come and view the paper copy of it (factcheck takes him up on the oppertunity), and the Hawaii Department of Health says “It’s a valid Hawaii State Birth certificate” and verifies it multiple times. If the birthers just wanted the truth, they’d stop right there. However, the birthers say that it’s a forgery! They say their non-certified experts who have no verifiable credentials in either computer forensics, or forensic document examiners have said so, so they’re going to believe them, and discount actual computer forensic examiners who say the exact opposite. If the birthers were seeking the truth, then they wouldn’t take everything on one side without question, and then say that everybody on the other side is a corrupt shrill for Obama.

    They then say, the these legal experts who haven’t actually won a case or gotten a court to hear them say that Obama is ineligbile, so I’m going to believe them, despite every judge they put their theory in front of rejects it outright. The judges who reject their theory are corrupt because they reject the theory. It can’t be that the 99% of legal experts who reject the theory are right, and their fringe 1% is wrong. It must be that the 99% of legal experts are actually corrupt officials who are only doing this because Obama has dirt on them.

    They then lie about Hawaii Law to say that even if the birth certificate is authentic, it actually means nothing. They’re continually told by State Officials that they are wrong. Anybody who’s actually seeking the truth would stop right there, and look back and say, “Maybe these people who are actually in charge of this are right, and my interpretation of law that I got from people who have never tried a case is wrong.” They then just discount them as Obama hacks who are being threatened by Obama.

    Then they trout out birth certificates which are obvious fakes (one of them literally says in dutch in the background that this is a spoof certificate done to make fun of the birthers), and certificates that come from people who have literally convicted of forgery, and tout them as authentic.

    So, then they move onto their next thing… They say, “We’re only seeking the truth. If Obama would just release his long-form birth certificate, this would all be over.” So, Obama gets a special release of the long-form birth certificate from the Hawaii Department of Health. The Director of the Hawaii Department of Health and the State Registrar sign affidavits (magical word for the people against Obama) stating that they were there when it was copied, and attest to it’s authenticity. He then scans it on his website, photocopies it for every member of the Press corp to have their own personal copy, and then takes the original and lets anybody in the White House Press Corps to hold it, and photograph it. The Birthers, who if they were interested in the truth, would say, “Okay, Obama was born in Hawaii.” Instead they repeat all the steps from above.

    Now, they’re still saying, “We’re still seeking the truth” even after various officials from the State of Hawaii attest to the authenticity of the birth certificate at least 5 times. These people aren’t actually seeking the truth. They’re seeking confirmation of their belief that Obama is ineligible. They’ll believe anything that goes towards that objet, even if it comes from a convicted forger, and they’ll discount anything that goes against their pre-determined conclusion.

  172. avatar
    Paper July 23, 2012 at 4:30 pm #

    This notion has no bearing on this discussion. You are attempting to apply a reasonable position to unreasonable people. All honest “negotiation,” to use your term loosely, has already occurred. That phase is well and truly over. An honest “negotiation” might look something like, can we see your long form? Okay, here it is. I got an exception from Hawaii just for you.

    Satisfied? (No, we want you impeached…oh sorry, we meant…can we ask ever so politely how that PDF was scanned? Because we are trying to ruin you with baseless innuendo and distract you from real issues…oh sorry, we meant…we just want the truth, surely you want the truth too?)

    So much for negotiation.

    Birthers are lying when they say they want the truth. If they just wanted the truth, they would have been satisfied by now. They really mean we think you are a usurper and that is the truth; we know it and we’ll never accept anything else. “Don’t talk to me about obvious reality. You’re just part of the conspiracy. Why won’t you be reasonable and let me treat you like the usurper you are? ”

    foreigner:
    bad policy, not to negotiate with anybody
    —————————-
    birthers say they want the truth

  173. avatar
    richCares July 23, 2012 at 4:31 pm #

    today Obama spoke to the VFW veterans
    Now birthers have to add the VFW on their enemy list. Obama was well received by them, a lot of cheers and hugs, so they now have to hate the VFW. So much hate, so much to share in birferstan.

  174. avatar
    Jamese777 July 23, 2012 at 4:33 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    There has to be a backup copy for disaster recovery. It’s unthinkable to be otherwise.

    I remember Janice Okubo, the former Communication Director for HDOH during the Lingle Adminstration being quoted when CNN broadcast a rumor that Obama’s birth certificate had been destroyed in a fire, Okubo said: “we have backups for the backups.”

  175. avatar
    Paper July 23, 2012 at 4:41 pm #

    This is not about “cooperation.” This is about saying: bend over, just to your knees. No, I said your ankles. No, I said put your elbows on the floor. Why are your pants still on? What are you trying to hide? Now be reasonable, cavity searches are reasonable. Hmmm…we’ll know the answer for sure truly once and for all after we tie you up and toss you in the lake. If you sink and drown, then you are innocent. But then again, maybe not, somebody better check and make sure he didn’t eat a bunch of iron nails just to weigh himself down and prove his innocence. You never know!

    foreigner:
    it’s a base for cooperation

  176. avatar
    Reason July 23, 2012 at 4:44 pm #

    This is ridiculous and has nothing to do with the point.

    foreigner:

    You Americans always only think : revenche.

  177. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 23, 2012 at 4:53 pm #

    Uh, why are you posting 4-month-old news? Pravda.ru is a tabloid known for sensational, but silly stories, like the Moon landing was a hoax.. Instead of lying for the Party, now they lie about whatever they want.

    JOHN WAYNE: n March 7th, 2012, Pravda called out the U.S. press for its deliberate neglect of the largest scandal in modern American history. Maricopa County, Arizona

  178. avatar
    Jim July 23, 2012 at 4:59 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Uh, why are you posting 4-month-old news? Pravda.ru is a tabloid known for sensational, but silly stories, like the Moon landing was a hoax.. Instead of lying for the Party, now they lie about whatever they want.

    Haven’t you heard? Your site is now famous Doc. All the birthers are coming over to prove they haven’t anything new…just for you! I’m still waiting for Borderraven to show up and start misquoting laws!

  179. avatar
    Joe Acerbic July 23, 2012 at 5:19 pm #

    Thomas Brown:
    Blockhead Birther Blunder of the Week:Mark calling liberals “Statists” and “Enemies of the State.”

    A birfoon holding ONLY two contradictory beliefs about something is a smart and logical birfoon.

  180. avatar
    DP July 23, 2012 at 5:20 pm #

    It’s amazing that someone who doesn’t get the joke about Pravda starts waving it around like finding it is a real accomplishment.

  181. avatar
    sactosintolerant July 23, 2012 at 5:41 pm #

    Garrett Papit is on WND claiming CCP has the coding proof and will release it… soon.

  182. avatar
    misha July 23, 2012 at 5:43 pm #

    DP: It’s amazing that someone who doesn’t get the joke

    It’s no joke about Glenn Beck, who may have raped and murdered a girl.

  183. avatar
    Jim July 23, 2012 at 5:44 pm #

    sactosintolerant:
    Garrett Papit is on WND claiming CCP has the coding proof and will release it… soon.

    It would be funny if Doc or John found the proof before they were able to post theirs and proved they were trying to pull a fast one…again! 😀

  184. avatar
    John Woodman July 23, 2012 at 5:50 pm #

    foreigner: birthers say they

    So? Bill Clinton said he did not have sex with that woman. Tricky Dicky said he was not a crook. Satan said he was a friend of Eve.

    I have not met anyone actually espousing birtherism in many months who actually acted as if he or she wanted the truth.

    The “honest birthers” are long gone. There’s too much information out there.

    When things are disproven, most former proponents simply go away. A few (such as myself and Squeeky Fromm) tell people the truth. And some, who are dedicated to the narrative and not to the truth, keep repeating proven lies.

  185. avatar
    misha July 23, 2012 at 5:52 pm #

    Jim: It would be funny if Doc or John found the proof before they were able to post theirs and proved they were trying to pull a fast one…again!

    I think legitimate reporters will ignore any more of their pressers. They cried ‘wolf’ too many times.

  186. avatar
    JoZeppy July 23, 2012 at 6:42 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE: READ PRAVDA FOR THE TRUTH. The commie newspaper rips OBUMMER

    JOHN WAYNE: Obummer, the Commie

    JOHN WAYNE: PRAVDA THE COMMUNIST NEWSPAPER RIPS OBUMMER

    So let me follow this logic…Obama is bad, because you think he is a “commie” but Pravda, a newspaper you believe to be communist is good, because they tell you what you want to believe?

  187. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 6:44 pm #

    “John Wayne” is not particularly consistent in his ‘arguments’ but he is certainly allowing a ‘Commie site” to manipulate him through false information…

    Fascinating

  188. avatar
    JoZeppy July 23, 2012 at 6:46 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE: Results of the poll conducted by Komarovski show:89.6% believe that Obama was not born in the US and not eligible, 10.4% believe that he was born in the US and eligible

    Who the heck is Komarovski, and why should I care?

    For someone who claims to be a Patriot, you tend to cite quite a bit to Russians…..Perhaps it’s not the President that is the Commie?

  189. avatar
    misha July 23, 2012 at 6:53 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE: Results of the poll conducted by Komarovski

    JoZeppy: Who the heck is Komarovski

    Our current troll can’t even spell Komarovski properly. ‘Komarovsky’ is Russian/Ukrainian. ‘Komarovski’ is Polish.

    Why am I not surprised?

  190. avatar
    misha July 23, 2012 at 6:58 pm #

    JoZeppy: Who the heck is Komarovski

    The Russian incarnation of The Great Carnac.

  191. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 23, 2012 at 7:08 pm #

    В “Прав’е” нет известий, в “Известиях” нет прав’ы.

    JOHN WAYNE: PRAVDA THE COMMUNIST NEWSPAPER RIPS OBUMMER

  192. avatar
    Majority Will July 23, 2012 at 7:22 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: В “Прав’е” нет известий, в “Известиях” нет прав’ы.

    “The Zen philosopher Basha once wrote, ‘A flute with no holes is not a flute. A donut with no hole is a Danish.’ He was a funny guy.”
    – Ty Webb

  193. avatar
    BillTheCat July 23, 2012 at 7:32 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE: PRAVDA THE COMMUNIST NEWSPAPER RIPS OBUMMERPRAVDA THE COMMUNIST NEWSPAPER RIPS OBUMMERn March 7th, 2012, Pravda called out the U.S. press for its deliberate neglect of the largest scandal in modern American history. Maricopa County, Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio released credible forensic evidence that Barack Obama, presumed President of the United States, presented to the world a forged Birth Certificate on April 27th, 2011.Since then, the scandal has only expanded. Former United States Postal Service worker Allen Hulton has recently come forward with compelling testimony given under Oath, which leads to only one conclusion: Barack Obama attended College in the United States as a Foreign Student.DON’T TREAD ON ME !!!NBC *NATIONAL BABOON COMMISSION*******

    Can you be any more of a parody? 😀

    Watch out for the cut-n-paste brigade, otherwise known as “Armchair Patriots”.

  194. avatar
    Northland10 July 23, 2012 at 7:33 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Apparently so.

    That was amuzing 😆

  195. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 23, 2012 at 7:34 pm #

    And Hitler said:

    The German people has the solemn intention of living in peace and friendship with all civilized nations and powers…. .And I regard the maintenance of peace in Europe as especially desirable and at the same time secured, if France and Germany, on the basis of equal sharing of natural human rights, arrive at a real inner understanding….The young Germany, that is led by me and that finds its expression in the National Socialist Movement, has only the most heartfelt desire for an understanding with other European nations.

    John Woodman: So? Bill Clinton said he did not have sex with that woman. Tricky Dicky said he was not a crook. Satan said he was a friend of Eve.

  196. avatar
    JOHN WAYNE July 23, 2012 at 7:35 pm #

    Obama Using Dead Man’s Social Security Number

    The White House is reeling over a bombshell lawsuit that accuses President Barack Obama of using a fake Social Security card belonging to a dead man born in 1890 — and demands that his name be removed from the ballot in Ohio.

  197. avatar
    JoZeppy July 23, 2012 at 7:37 pm #

    misha: Our current troll can’t even spell Komarovski properly. ‘Komarovsky’ is Russian/Ukrainian. ‘Komarovski’ is Polish.
    Why am I not surprised?

    Actually, not even correct Polish (no letter ‘v’ in Polish).

    but why am I not surprised he can’t get it right in any language?

  198. avatar
    misha July 23, 2012 at 7:38 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: В “Прав’е” нет известий, в “Известиях” нет прав’ы.

    [bada-bing]

  199. avatar
    Stanislaw July 23, 2012 at 7:38 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE:
    Obama Using Dead Man’s Social Security Number

    The White House is reeling over a bombshell lawsuit that accuses President Barack Obama of using a fake Social Security card belonging to a dead man born in 1890 — and demands that his name be removed from the ballot in Ohio.

    I knew that if we waited long enough “john” would start posting under his first and last name.

  200. avatar
    JoZeppy July 23, 2012 at 7:41 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE: Obama Using Dead Man’s Social Security NumberThe White House is reeling over a bombshell lawsuit that accuses President Barack Obama of using a fake Social Security card belonging to a dead man born in 1890 — and demands that his name be removed from the ballot in Ohio.

    And how did every other lawsuit Orly filed making this exact same claim go? Yeah, they’re reeling alright….reeling in laughter.

  201. avatar
    richCares July 23, 2012 at 7:42 pm #

    “The White House is reeling over a bombshell lawsuit that accuses President Barack Obama of using a fake Social Security”
    correction:
    The White House is reeling over with laughter at a silly lawsuit that accuses President Barack Obama of using a fake Social Security
    there now OK!

  202. avatar
    misha July 23, 2012 at 7:46 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE: The White House is reeling

    Ah, yessss. The mind reels. [Said in a WC Fields inflection.]

  203. avatar
    donna July 23, 2012 at 7:46 pm #

    JoZeppy: to john wayne “And how did every other lawsuit Orly filed making this exact same claim go? Yeah, they’re reeling alright….reeling in laughter.”

    OBVIOUSLY, the “duke” has been duped and hasn’t kept up with the queen birther and her numerous failures

  204. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 7:47 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE: The White House is reeling over a bombshell lawsuit that accuses President Barack Obama of using a fake Social Security card belonging to a dead man born in 1890 — and demands that his name be removed from the ballot in Ohio.

    ROTFL. The only reference to 1890 DOB occurred at an address known to have belonged to President Obama and the name on the record? President Obama. I guess, the argument is now that the President is older than he looks?

    Such follies.

    Note that there are also records showing President Obama to be born in 1990.

    Now John is allowing himself to be manipulated by such news organizations as the ‘Globe’..

    Has he no self respect?

  205. avatar
    John Woodman July 23, 2012 at 7:48 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I can prove that they lied and fabricated evidence. I think Mark Gillar has admitted as much by now conceding they never had a 1961 code manual.

    Has Gillar conceded this? Where was this admission?

  206. avatar
    John Woodman July 23, 2012 at 7:54 pm #

    US Citizen: It’s big-indian because we took a most significant bite.

    Geek humor. I love it. 😉

  207. avatar
    John Woodman July 23, 2012 at 8:41 pm #

    foreigner:
    Scientist,
    I still want it. WH declaring how the pdf was produced, congress examining it
    (starting with a small examination and only expanding if evidence shows up)
    Also the microfilm or such, if it can be produced easily – why not ?

    I still want a pill that will permanently rejuvenate my body to the physical age of 23, and keep it at that physical age and in good health from now on.

    I want some really old, feeble billionaire on his deathbed to remember me in his will with half his estate.

    I want Bono to come over on Friday nights and play free U2 concerts for me and my buddies.

    I want my own pet unicorn.

    That old guy can certainly just as well write my name on his will instead of that jerky, undeserving, ungrateful son of his — why not?

  208. avatar
    foreigner July 23, 2012 at 8:59 pm #

    must be the springfieldsatireguy, I guess.
    Or is there maybe an encoded meaning – you never know.

  209. avatar
    Andrew Vrba, PmG July 23, 2012 at 9:01 pm #

    foreigner:
    if it can be produced easily – why not ?

    That is the weakest excuse ever! Because something is easy, one should be compelled to do it?
    I could easily set my house on fire, but I ain’t gonna.

  210. avatar
    Jamese777 July 23, 2012 at 9:05 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE:
    Obama Using Dead Man’s Social Security Number

    The White House is reeling over a bombshell lawsuit that accuses President Barack Obama of using a fake Social Security card belonging to a dead man born in 1890 — and demands that his name be removed from the ballot in Ohio.

    Birther Attorney Orly Taitz sued the Administrator of the Social Security Administration, MIchael J. Astrue to force release of President Obama’s Social Security data.
    The Judge, Chief US District Court Judge for the District of Columbia, Royce C. Lamberth,
    a Reagan Appointee summarily dismissed Orly Taitz’s lawsuit and he wrote in his opinion:
    “Ever persistent, plaintiff (Orly Taitz) has once again come before this Court in an effort to uncover “the biggest cover up in the history of this nation.”
    She believes that the President is using a “fraudulently obtained” social security number and that the Social Security Administration–among other agencies–is involved in a scheme to “cover up social security fraud, IRS fraud, election fraud and possibly treason” committed by the President. As her numerous filings with the Court demonstrate, plaintiff will stop at nothing to get to the bottom of this alleged conspiracy. Unfortunately for plaintiff, today is not her lucky day.”

  211. avatar
    AnotherBird July 23, 2012 at 9:07 pm #

    nbc: ROTFL. The only reference to 1890 DOB occurred at an address known to have belonged to President Obama …

    An address? So, it can be summed up with being only an address. There arguments are more strange that I originally thought.

  212. avatar
    foreigner July 23, 2012 at 9:18 pm #

    John Woodman July 23, 2012 at 5:50 pm John Woodman(Quote) #
    So? Bill Clinton said he did not have sex with that woman. Tricky Dicky
    said he was not a crook. Satan said he was a friend of Eve.
    I have not met anyone actually espousing birtherism in many months
    who actually acted as if he or she wanted the truth.
    The “honest birthers” are long gone. There’s too much information out there.
    When things are disproven, most former proponents simply go away. A few
    (such as myself and Squeeky Fromm) tell people the truth. And some,
    who are dedicated to the narrative and not to the truth, keep repeating proven lies.
    ——————————
    what does it matter ? They say that they want the truth. They are doing the same
    research as we do, in fact they use the same sources. I found much of useful
    data on obamafile.com . So it _does_ make sense to cooperate. What you line
    out only means that they shouldn’t be trusted – so design the cooperation
    accordingly. You give me this manual and I give you that new BC.
    You file the FOIA on this thing and I file the same on that thing and the
    exchange the data. Then you’ll figure out whether they keep promises
    or risk the whole cooperation for a temporary advantage and the chance
    to be outed in internet for not keeping promises.

  213. avatar
    hawaiiborn July 23, 2012 at 9:24 pm #

    its one thing to share data, its another thing to lie about what that data contains.

  214. avatar
    Paper July 23, 2012 at 9:26 pm #

    Bingo.

    hawaiiborn:
    its one thing to share data, its another thing to lie about what that data contains.

  215. avatar
    Paper July 23, 2012 at 9:36 pm #

    This already happens. Dr. C for instance posts info he gets, say, through an FOIA, and there are a number of documents that get posted on obamarkeaseyourrecords etc. Dr. C even refers to some of these at times. That is trivial.

    What was that press conference supposed to be after all but sharing information? It wasn’t, because they lie, but that is what it was billed as.

    We already know they are not to be left unsupervised, so to speak. So in terms of your suggestions, done and done.

    foreigner:
    .
    You file the FOIA on this thing and I file the same on that thing and the
    exchange the data. Then you’ll figure out whether they keep promises
    or risk the whole cooperation for a temporary advantage and the chance
    to be outed in internet for not keeping promises.

  216. avatar
    Thrifty July 23, 2012 at 9:39 pm #

    Yeah yeah yeah. I saw that crap in the tabloid at the supermarket checkout line too. Difference is that I’m not stupid enough to believe it.

    JOHN WAYNE:
    Obama Using Dead Man’s Social Security Number

    The White House is reeling over a bombshell lawsuit that accuses President Barack Obama of using a fake Social Security card belonging to a dead man born in 1890 — and demands that his name be removed from the ballot in Ohio.

  217. avatar
    misha July 23, 2012 at 9:45 pm #

    Andrew Vrba, PmG: I could easily set my house on fire, but I ain’t gonna.

    Especially if you are a libertarian: you would not have a fire department contract.

  218. avatar
    nbc July 23, 2012 at 9:46 pm #

    foreigner: They say that they want the truth. They are doing the same research as we do, in fact they use the same sources.

    ROTFL… You’re funny…

  219. avatar
    misha July 23, 2012 at 9:47 pm #

    foreigner: They say that they want the truth.

    Did Glenn Beck rape and murder a girl?

    I want the truth.

  220. avatar
    John Woodman July 23, 2012 at 10:00 pm #

    sactosintolerant:
    Garrett Papit is on WND claiming CCP has the coding proof and will release it… soon.

    Where do you see this?

  221. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 23, 2012 at 10:13 pm #

    Using words like “reeling” over a lawsuit, one of over 140 already lost, rejected and/or dismissed already makes you sound clownish. Say what you want, but if I were me, I would want to be taken seriously. And this is old news. Here’s my article from a couple weeks ago:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/07/the-f-l-a-w/

    There’s nothing whatever special or newsworthy about Daniels v. Husted. I covered it because that’s what I do here, talk about birthers. But this one is destined for the land fill with the rest of them.

    JOHN WAYNE: The White House is reeling over a bombshell lawsuit that accuses President Barack Obama of using a fake Social Security card belonging to a dead man born in 1890 — and demands that his name be removed from the ballot in Ohio.

  222. avatar
    John Woodman July 23, 2012 at 10:14 pm #

    Jim: It would be funny if Doc or John found the proof before they were able to post theirs and proved they were trying to pull a fast one…again!

    The proof has all been proven.

    Again and again and again.

    I showed in my book that Jerome Corsi had publicly backed 23 claims of “proof of forgery” — in a row — not a single one of which could stand up to the light of honest scrutiny.

    I showed that Corsi based a major claim of “proof of forgery” on a statement which is known and easily verified to be completely false (the claim regarding Charles Bennett’s 1955 article).

    Loren Collins showed that he plagiarized an article from a British media source.

    Mr. Davidson has proven conclusively that Corsi and Arpaio’s Cold Cuts Posse fabricated evidence and flat-out lied to the nation.

    It’s an ongoing struggle between the forces of integrity and truth, and those who have no morals, no scruples, who care nothing for truth, but only care for who they can con and what they can get out of it.

    The main stream media made up its mind long ago — long before I did, by the way — that the birthers had nothing true to say.

    The media, in this case, were entirely correct.

    Honest and thinking people — as well as those who simply believe what the media tell them — will continue to dismiss the birthers out of hand.

    Eventually they will be relegated, mostly, to the dishonorable dustbin of history.

    Posterity will remember those who led the movement as freaks, nutjobs, and charlatans who preyed on the weak. In at least a small way, it will remember those who stood up to the charlatans — such as many here who have all made their own contributions — as people of integrity and honor.

  223. avatar
    donna July 23, 2012 at 10:28 pm #

    Does the Social Security Administration ever re-issue Social Security numbers?

    “Never,” Daniels told Corsi. “It’s against the law for a person to have a re-issued or second Social Security Number issued.”

    Daniels said she is “staking my reputation on a conclusion that Obama’s use of this Social Security number is fraudulent.”

    one look at the ss website proves her WRONG

  224. avatar
    Jim July 23, 2012 at 10:59 pm #

    Another line to add to my “You Might be a Birther” above…

    “If you believe the April Fool’s joke that the President registered for College as a foreign student, you might be a birther (and a fool too!)”

  225. avatar
    Plutodog July 23, 2012 at 11:01 pm #

    And Guenter, John Woodman — how will posterity remember folks like “foreigner” Guenter who want so badly, are so concerned that we appease the birferz because surely they’re reasonable folks who we should want to make happy. How will posterity treat such lunacy in the middle of 2012?

    My guess is posterity will ignore the Guenter type. Why give them any serious attention whatsoever?

  226. avatar
    John Woodman July 23, 2012 at 11:09 pm #

    If posterity remembers them, it will remember them as hopelessly naive.

  227. avatar
    G July 23, 2012 at 11:23 pm #

    AGREED! Well said and spot on!

    John Woodman: I have not met anyone actually espousing birtherism in many months who actually acted as if he or she wanted the truth.

    The “honest birthers” are long gone. There’s too much information out there.

    When things are disproven, most former proponents simply go away. A few (such as myself and Squeeky Fromm) tell people the truth. And some, who are dedicated to the narrative and not to the truth, keep repeating proven lies.

  228. avatar
    BillTheCat July 23, 2012 at 11:32 pm #

    misha: Ah, yessss. The mind reels. [Said in a WC Fields inflection.]

    “We were rollin’ reelin’ and a- rockin’.
    We were reelin’ and a- rockin’ and rollin’ till the break of dawn”

    -Chuck Berry

  229. avatar
    Zachary Bravos July 23, 2012 at 11:47 pm #

    I am a practicing attorney. Birthers annoy me because charlatans, hucksters, and con men offend my personal sense of justice. I hate to see gullible people taken advantage of. I hate to see others profit by their misdeeds and deception.

  230. avatar
    G July 23, 2012 at 11:53 pm #

    BRAVO! Well stated!

    John Woodman: It’s an ongoing struggle between the forces of integrity and truth, and those who have no morals, no scruples, who care nothing for truth, but only care for who they can con and what they can get out of it.

    The main stream media made up its mind long ago — long before I did, by the way — that the birthers had nothing true to say.
    The media, in this case, were entirely correct.

    Honest and thinking people — as well as those who simply believe what the media tell them — will continue to dismiss the birthers out of hand.

    Eventually they will be relegated, mostly, to the dishonorable dustbin of history.
    Posterity will remember those who led the movement as freaks, nutjobs, and charlatans who preyed on the weak
    . In at least a small way, it will remember those who stood up to the charlatans — such as many here who have all made their own contributions — as people of integrity and honor.

  231. avatar
    JPotter July 24, 2012 at 12:43 am #

    JoZeppy: So let me follow this logic…Obama is bad, because you think he is a “commie” but Pravda, a newspaper you believe to be communist is good, because they tell you what you want to believe?

    Obama is Trotsky Obama is Snowball. 😉

  232. avatar
    aarrgghh July 24, 2012 at 1:20 am #

    Zachary Bravos: I am a practicing attorney. Birthers annoy me because charlatans, hucksters, and con men offend my personal sense of justice. I hate to see gullible people taken advantage of. I hate to see others profit by their misdeeds and deception.

    i’m in the same camp. birthers offend my sense of intellectual integrity, honesty and truth-seeking. the universe is a complex, fascinating and often hostile place that we only get a small glimpse of for a short period of time. it is filled with profound challenges that can only be met if faced with clear eyes. birfers solve nothing. birfers learn nothing. birfers waste time. birfers are only useful for demonstrating a bad example. they are just a sad and willfully ignorant sideshow and despite the unintended entertainment they offer, i have no interest in living in their selfish fantasies.

  233. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 1:23 am #

    Wow… that was worded so perfectly! I completely share your viewpoints on this and reasoning on this!

    aarrgghh: i’m in the same camp. birthers offend my sense of intellectual integrity, honesty and truth-seeking. the universe is a complex, fascinating and often hostile place that we only get a small glimpse of for a short period of time. it is filled with profound challenges that can only be met if faced with clear eyes. birfers solve nothing. birfers learn nothing. birfers waste time. birfers are only useful for demonstrating a bad example. they are just a sad and willfully ignorant sideshow and despite the unintended entertainment they offer, i have no interest in living in their selfish fantasies.

  234. avatar
    Paper July 24, 2012 at 1:41 am #

    Well put.

    aarrgghh: i’m in the same camp. birthers offend my sense of intellectual integrity, honesty and truth-seeking. the universe is a complex, fascinating and often hostile place that we only get a small glimpse of for a short period of time. it is filled with profound challenges that can only be met if faced with clear eyes. birfers solve nothing. birfers learn nothing. birfers waste time. birfers are only useful for demonstrating a bad example. they are just a sad and willfully ignorant sideshow and despite the unintended entertainment they offer, i have no interest in living in their selfish fantasies.

  235. avatar
    Keith July 24, 2012 at 2:41 am #

    Scientist: Of course, had the H-guy (forgot about the moderation)

    You mean Shicklegruber?

  236. avatar
    JOHN WAYNE July 24, 2012 at 2:54 am #

    That’s ALL BULL…………. !!!!!!!!!!!!!1

    I GAVE a simple exit for you…

    The microfilm, breaking the law yea……………………

    Obummer wrote a letter To HAWAII AND THEY GAVE OBUMMER A FRADULANT BIRTH CERTIFICATE……….. HAWAII COULD HAVE JUST AS EASILY SENT ALONG THE MICROFILM TO PROVE THE FRADULANT BIRTH CERTIFACATE WAS LEGIT. Therefore. Obummer would have the Fradulant Birth Certificate and the Microfilm at the same time.

    Now, you Obummer operative, dig your way out of this. Of course you will and drum up some other story………

    Obummer can easily write another letter to Hawaii, and under a Presidental Decree and DEMAND A MICROFILM AS I DESCRIBED, SEVERAL FRAMES IN FRONT OF OBUMMERS BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND SEVERAL FRAMES AFTER OBUMMERS BIRTH CERTIFICATE………
    Don’t give me that breaking the law crap………On a matter of national security the microfilm is a requirement.

    You keep forgeting Obummer has to prove he is legit, I do not have to prove anything for the traitor and usurper !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    And, don’t forget, Obummer wants the US to destroy fifty percent of our atomic bomb stock piles. If that is NOT A TRAITOR, then all of you are traitors to the US. just like Obummer is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

    DON’T TREAD ON ME !!!!!!!!!

  237. avatar
    Keith July 24, 2012 at 3:02 am #

    Majority Will: “The Zen philosopher Basha once wrote, ‘A flute with no holes is not a flute. A donut with no hole is a Danish.’ He was a funny guy.”
    – Ty Webb

    Does the Zen philosopher have any insight on why John F. Kennedy thought he was a jam dough-nut?

  238. avatar
    Keith July 24, 2012 at 3:06 am #

    JOHN WAYNE:
    Obama Using Dead Man’s Social Security Number

    The White House is reeling over a bombshell lawsuit that accuses President Barack Obama of using a fake Social Security card belonging to a dead man born in 1890 — and demands that his name be removed from the ballot in Ohio.

    i think you will find that the only entity/person/whatever that has ‘standing’ to deal with fake SSN’s via lawsuit or whatever, is the Social Security Administration.

    But IANAL and I could be wrong.

  239. avatar
    Keith July 24, 2012 at 3:10 am #

    John Woodman: I want Bono to come over on Friday nights and play free U2 concerts for me and my buddies.

    Sonny or Cher?

  240. avatar
    JPotter July 24, 2012 at 3:13 am #

    JOHN WAYNE: TO PROVE THE FRADULANT BIRTH CERTIFACATE WAS LEGIT.

    “… TO PROVE THE FRADULANT BIRTH CERTIFACATE WAS LEGIT. ”

    My favorite pearl in that particular string. A masterpiece, Marion! I have added your effort to my collection of Looniest Birfer Rants. 🙂

  241. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 3:29 am #

    Wait, you mean a 50% reduction, like George W Bush negotiated?

    In other words, President Obama is simply following in the footsteps of these Republican Presidents, ALL who were instrumental in putting certain nuclear testing bans in place AND negotiating bilateral reductions of our nuclear weapons stock piles significantly, so that we could all hope to live in a safer and saner world. Yes, that would be:

    Dwight Eisenhower
    Richard Nixon
    Ronald Reagan
    George H.W. Bush
    George W. Bush

    …So why do you HATE America, Fake John Wayne? You seem to be AGAINST just about EVERY US President of the modern era…

    …you must be a commie…

    JOHN WAYNE: And, don’t forget, Obummer wants the US to destroy fifty percent of our atomic bomb stock piles. If that is NOT A TRAITOR, then all of you are traitors to the US. just like Obummer is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

    That’s okay, you’re doing a fine job stepping all over yourself… Oh, and next time you do step on yourself, maybe you should try to wipe your feet. They are quite filthy from all the bullsh*t you are constantly wallowing in…

    JOHN WAYNE: DON’T TREAD ON ME !!!!!!!!!

  242. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 3:34 am #

    Sorry there, piss-pants, but there is no “national security” threat here at all.

    I don’t know who “Obummer” is, as there is nobody with that name.

    President Obama however doesn’t have to do anything more here to prove he’s legit. You seem to have difficulty remembering that EVERY day you wake up, he’s STILL President…

    He doesn’t need you to “prove” anything to him either. He doesn’t know you even exist. You’re nobody. He’s the President.

    The next few months and then the next 4 more years after that are sure going to be difficult on you, aren’t they…

    JOHN WAYNE: On a matter of national security the microfilm is a requirement.
    You keep forgeting Obummer has to prove he is legit, I do not have to prove anything for the traitor and usurper !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  243. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 3:35 am #

    Here’s a good article on various nuclear weapons reduction efforts by past Republican Presidents:

    http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/27/republican-presidents-efforts-to-reduce-nuclear-arms/

    G: Wait, you mean a 50% reduction, like George W Bush negotiated?
    In other words, President Obama is simply following in the footsteps of these Republican Presidents, ALL who were instrumental in putting certain nuclear testing bans in place AND negotiating bilateral reductions of our nuclear weapons stock piles significantly, so that we could all hope to live in a safer and saner world. Yes, that would be:
    Dwight Eisenhower
    Richard Nixon
    Ronald Reagan
    George H.W. Bush
    George W. Bush
    …So why do you HATE America, Fake John Wayne? You seem to be AGAINST just about EVERY US President of the modern era…
    …you must be a commie…

    JOHN WAYNE: And, don’t forget, Obummer wants the US to destroy fifty percent of our atomic bomb stock piles. If that is NOT A TRAITOR, then all of you are traitors to the US. just like Obummer is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

  244. avatar
    foreigner July 24, 2012 at 4:05 am #

    it’s not so easy for someone who is relatively new to the matter to decide
    who is right. I’d guess that many people here might have ended as birthers
    if only by some random circumstances they had come at more birther
    articles,videos,contacts , and then early on they had been attacked,
    provoked,ridiculed,insulted by obots/antibirthers –> thus making them
    more and more anti-antibirtherish.
    At that point, even if they discover that some of their original claims were
    debunked, they are reluctant to admit to the typical folks in the forums and blogs.
    Because that would only increase their bad behaviour.
    So things slowly escalate and antibirthers and antiantibirthers fight each other.
    In which camp you end up – almost random.
    I’d like to see a study, whether birthers are indeed more stupid than antibirthers,
    and how much. Introduce birther certificates to examine this and make a statistics !

  245. avatar
    The Magic M July 24, 2012 at 4:05 am #

    JOHN WAYNE: Obummer can easily write another letter to Hawaii, and under a Presidental Decree and DEMAND A MICROFILM

    Since when can “Presidential Decrees” (you probably mean an executive order) overrule state laws? What country are you talking about again?

    JOHN WAYNE:
    Don’t give me that breaking the law crap………On a matter of national security the microfilm is a requirement.

    First, that is legally bull. Show me the provision that the President can just nullify state laws by declaring the issue a “matter of national security”.

    Second, you birthers still have to prove there is a microfilm. As far as we know, Obama’s LFBC is in a binder (a book). The microfilm issue is another birther invention intended to demand something that very likely doesn’t exist for pure propaganda purposes. (It’s possible that such microfilm exists, but there is no substantial evidence it does, therefore the burden would be on the birthers since proof of nonexistence is practically impossible.)
    What’s next, will you demand to see the certified copies signed by the Pope that the Vatican keeps of all presidential birth certificates (they must exist, some birther site said so!)?

    JOHN WAYNE:

    You keep forgeting Obummer has to prove he is legit, I do not have to prove anything for the traitor and usurper !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    To all sane people, Obama has proven anything that is required. Your personal preferences have no weight.

  246. avatar
    The Magic M July 24, 2012 at 4:14 am #

    foreigner: I’d like to see a study, whether birthers are indeed more stupid than antibirthers,
    and how much.

    Just go over to WND and compare the level of grammar, spelling and punctuation. There are some very intelligent people who can’t spell, but their number is statistically irrelevant.

  247. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 4:51 am #

    Yes it is. Only people who have poor critical thinking skills and lack the ability to discern between official sources and gossip tabloids are incapable of figuring this out quickly. Look, if you can’t grasp the difference between actual corroborating physical evidence, coupled with corroborating statements of verification from official authorities and mere unsubstantiated speculation by people with an obvious hate-based agenda, then you are a fool. There is no way around that.

    Nor is this whole Birther phenomenon “new” at this point. This nonsense has been going on for 4 years. For someone in this country to be completely unaware of the matter by now is not very credible at all. The ODS pool of people susceptible and sympathetic to BIrtherism have been this way for quite sometime now and everyone else has dismissed the issue as silly nonsense.

    foreigner:
    it’s not so easy for someone who is relatively new to the matter to decide who is right.

    Nope. Most of us here came to the issue originally, because we too were curious to find out the truth, when we first heard the rumors. For those of us who’ve been around since this phenomenon started, there wasn’t that much to go in in the early months, but the research and amount of corroborating and solid evidence validating his birth and NBC status quickly built up in a matter of months. There simply was no rational doubt left as NONE of the Birther claims held up under scrutiny and there is NO actual real evidence of a contrary story to his HI birth and his NBC status.

    Most rational people, when hearing such a rumor, would want to quickly check the official source agency for issuing the birth certificate – both to learn about their forms, procedures and most importantly, their stance on the issue. That happens to be the HI DOH. For several years now, they’ve had a dedicated and very detailed page CONFIRMING and corroborating the validity of the BC in extensive detail.

    Only a bitter denialist would ignore that source and continue to wallow in the BIrther myths. So you’re only left with desperate wishful thinking by those suffering from ODS.

    foreigner:
    I’d guess that many people here might have ended as birthers if only by some random circumstances they had come at more birther articles,videos,contacts ,

    There is a big difference between those that reasonably ask naïve questions and those that simply spout off authoritatively, without actually knowing what they are talking about. The former group gets treated well and is given answers and links to their questions in a supportive manner. The latter, rightly gets mocked for shooting off their mouths and looking like a fool.

    Anyone with an ounce of self-respect and personal responsibility should have enough self-awareness to realize that they were wrong and grasp why they came off foolish, when confronted and faced with the actual evidence and facts.

    It takes a lot of extreme insecurity, personal immaturity and willful denial to “double-down” and dig in on taking bogus positions, once one has been confronted with solid evidence. If you are incapable of adapting and assimilating new information and realizing you were wrong, then you are a fool and deserve to continue to be treated like a fool for that.

    foreigner:
    and then early on they had been attacked, provoked,ridiculed,insulted by obots/antibirthers –> thus making them more and more anti-antibirtherish.

    Actually, you are quite WRONG on this assumption. There are numerous folks that started off spouting Birther claims and who were mocked for it, who eventually realized the Birther claims were bogus. I’m not going to “out” names, as some of them are now regular anti-birther posters on this forum (or at least visit from time to time), but as soon as they stopped saying ridiculous things, they found that the ridicule went away too.

    …Amazing how that works! When you start talking about facts instead of fiction, you begin to regain credibility and people start treating you like a reasonable and rational person again…and people move on from the disagreements of the past.

    You should try it more. If you would become more self-aware, you would be able to distinguish that there is a difference between the responses you get, even within your own posts on here. There are a number of times where you’ve brought up relevant points and information and have received reasonable responses to that. You only get flack for the stuff you say that doesn’t stand up well under scrutiny. Unfortunately, you still say way to many things that fall in that latter category.

    So HINT: The best way to not receive ridicule is to not say ridiculous things… Simple as that.

    foreigner:
    At that point, even if they discover that some of their original claims were debunked, they are reluctant to admit to the typical folks in the forums and blogs. Because that would only increase their bad behaviour.

    There is absolutely nothing “random” about it. Again, you are being absurd.

    foreigner:
    So things slowly escalate and antibirthers and antiantibirthers fight each other.
    In which camp you end up – almost random.

    I’ll take that as an expression of your sense of humor and chuckle along with you. That was funny.

    foreigner:
    I’d like to see a study, whether birthers are indeed more stupid than antibirthers and how much. Introduce birther certificates to examine this and make a statistics !

  248. avatar
    foreigner July 24, 2012 at 4:57 am #

    the Magic M wrote:
    > (It’s possible that such microfilm exists, but there is no substantial evidence it does,

    there is. Federal DOHEW reported that they got microfilms with the BCs.
    Although maybe only the even numbered, I’m not sure.
    Hawaii did pencilmark also the oddnumbered BCs, so they probably processed
    them all for their statistics. Then, would they have sorted out the even numbers
    for the fed-microfilm or just microfilm them all ?
    They themselves wanted a safety copy.

  249. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 5:07 am #

    Hi Foreigner,

    I understand what you are saying and I think you are simply missing what The Magic M meant here. Could simply be a language barrier issue, so I’ll try to make his point a little clearer:

    Regardless of whether there was any microfilm made way back then, what we have ZERO data to tell us is if such microfilm EXISTS TODAY.

    The key point here is that a lot of old formats and records are only kept or stored for so long. So even if there was microfilm at one point for any of these records, we simply do NOT know if it would still be retained through the present time. A lot of such things get shredded, thrown out or otherwise destroyed after a number of years. Particularly when storage space is needed, the data exists in other formats, and/or automation replaces the need to retain such antiquated materials, such as microfilm.

    I hope that clears up and helps explain the point that The Magic M was trying to make.

    foreigner:
    the Magic M wrote:
    >(It’s possible that such microfilm exists, but there is no substantial evidence it does,

    there is. Federal DOHEW reported that they got microfilms with the BCs.
    Although maybe only the even numbered, I’m not sure.
    Hawaii did pencilmark also the oddnumbered BCs, so they probably processed
    them all for their statistics. Then, would they have sorted out the even numbers
    for the fed-microfilm or just microfilm them all ?
    They themselves wanted a safety copy.

  250. avatar
    aarrgghh July 24, 2012 at 5:12 am #

    foreigner: it’s not so easy for someone who is relatively new to the matter to decide who is right.

    here’s a very easy criterion, so simple a child could grok it:

    the side issuing the death threats is wrong.

  251. avatar
    Scientist July 24, 2012 at 7:31 am #

    foreigner: I’d guess that many people here might have ended as birthers
    if only by some random circumstances they had come at more birther
    articles,videos,contacts , and then early on they had been attacked,
    provoked,ridiculed,insulted by obots/antibirthers –> thus making them
    more and more anti-antibirtherish.

    I can assure you with as close as it is possible in this world to come to certainty that I would never have been a birther. First, there is not a single conspiracy theory that I believe. Conspiracies requires great competence to organize and keep secret and I have never seen much evidence of such competence among homo sapiens.

    Second, I don’t really care. Truly, I don’t. The natural born citizen thing was a foolish and unnecessary idea at the onset, desigend supposedly to protect against the “threat” of a European prince moving here and running for President (there is not a scintilla of evidence that any of them ever planned to). It has only become more foolish and unnecessary as time progresses. Most countries manage perfectly well without such a rule and the US would too. If some day, some non-NBC managed to sneak through and become President, so what? They might be a good one or a bad one and in neither case would that have anything to do with their birth circumstances.

    But what about the law? I can hear Apuzzo and his “rule of law” (though what that means coming from a guy who only accepts court decisions he likes is a good question). Well folks, there are laws and there are laws. I don’t kill, rape, steal, or assault people. I pay my taxes. But, I cruise along at 73 mph on the interstate, which New York says is illegal (people pass me going even faster). Back in college I tried marijuana and I inhaled. Reasonable people may differ, but to me, a non-NBC President would be much closer to the latter than the former. And all those NBC Presidents have been accused of violating one law or another by someone or other. I’m fairly sure that all of them have pressed the boundaries at many points and gone over the line from time to time. Lincoln was considered to be breaking every law in the books by his enemies, but he ended up with a very nice memorial in Washington.

    That’s a lot of semi-random thoughts for this hour of the morning, but suffice it to say, I can assure you that I would never have been a birther.

  252. avatar
    Thrifty July 24, 2012 at 7:39 am #

    And, what, microfilms can’t be forged?

    JOHN WAYNE: Obummer can easily write another letter to Hawaii, and under a Presidental Decree and DEMAND A MICROFILM AS I DESCRIBED, SEVERAL FRAMES IN FRONT OF OBUMMERS BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND SEVERAL FRAMES AFTER OBUMMERS BIRTH CERTIFICATE………

  253. avatar
    Keith July 24, 2012 at 8:04 am #

    foreigner: Federal DOHEW reported that they got microfilms with the BCs.

    That doesn’t mean that those films still exist. If they do, its the Feds that would have them. Are those films subject to Hawai’ian State Privacy Laws? Are you looking in the wrong place?

    Did I just start a new meme?

  254. avatar
    Scientist July 24, 2012 at 8:10 am #

    Thrifty: And, what, microfilms can’t be forged?

    Bang! You hit the nail on the head. Hawaii vouches for the birth certificate. So the ONLY way the birther case works is if there is a conspiracy that Hawaii is in on. And if Hawaii is in on it, they could produce a perfect document with the perfect Hawaiian pencil marks (because they know the codes better than anyone, or could figure them out by looking at the 17,000 1961 birth certificates they, and only they, have access to). They could also make a perfect microfilm. If necessary they could get help from the CIA, FBI, Bureau of Printing and Engraving or any other federal agency that answers to (guess who?) the President.

    So, if you allow for an infinite conspiracy, which is the only way birtherism works, document analysis is a dead end.

  255. avatar
    Keith July 24, 2012 at 8:14 am #

    G: The key point here is that a lot of old formats and records are only kept or stored for so long.

    I used to have the entire source code for IBM DOS/VSE and IBM VM/370 SP on microfiche and in my possession. I rescued it from the rubbish bin when it was replaced with a new copy which was the last one that IBM published before they went all closed source on us.

    Using that fiche, I found three glaring errors in the DOS/VSE code, the fix for one of which was published in a 3rd Party Software mag and and then adopted by IBM as a feature in a subsequent release.

    I tossed it out 30 years ago, when I realized that I hadn’t seen a fiche reader for years. I have kept older documents, like CDC 6000 COMPASS and SCOPE 3 manuals. But those I can read. Fiche is a fire hazard and deteriorates over time.

  256. avatar
    Sam C July 24, 2012 at 8:20 am #

    Scientist: The natural born citizen thing was a foolish and unnecessary idea at the onset, desigend supposedly to protect against the “threat” of a European prince moving here and running for President (there is not a scintilla of evidence that any of them ever planned to). It has only become more foolish and unnecessary as time progresses. Most countries manage perfectly well without such a rule and the US would too.

    There’s also the democratic argument: if the people choose to elect a particular person as president, their wish should be respected. It is not appropriate for courts to try to invert electoral decisions (unless there is serious misconduct).

    The birthers’ paranoia does not allow them to accept that the country is running smoothly enough with this president, even if they don’t like all his policies, as it does with every president. (I do wish some were less keen on starting wars!)

    So you get nonsense like “John Wayne”‘s shrieking insanity, rivers of scared, ignorant, paranoid, racist hatred. It is clothed in the disguise of imagined wrongdoing by his bogey man as a form of denial – he and his ilk cannot admit to themselves that they are wrong, stupid and evil.

  257. avatar
    Paper July 24, 2012 at 8:32 am #

    Only until they look into it for five minutes.

    (It helps slightly, saves maybe thirty seconds, not to be concerned with *who* is right, but just stick with the only question that matters: was the President born in Hawaii? After answering that question, anyone can go down any rabbit-hole they like. Just remember that the sky is that way over there.)

    foreigner:
    it’s not so easy for someone who is relatively new to the matter to decide
    who is right.

  258. avatar
    Paper July 24, 2012 at 9:05 am #

    Not very likely.

    But I do notice that the more strident Birthers in my acquaintance have fragile egos, which makes them even more belligerent, even in the face of politeness. In fact, I have seen something like the opposite of what you suggest. I made a point of not insulting, made sure I didn’t, because after all my family is full of people who are quite smart, and who can be quite caring people, but nonetheless I was the one who received the death threat. I was the one called a whole list of names left and right because I dared notice Tim Adams had nothing to offer but hearsay.

    So, without defending anyone’s rhetorical strategy here, I myself am slightly immune to this incredible notion that Birthers are born because they can’t handle the free-for-all in the comments section of a blog.

    As for admitting they were wrong, no need. This is the internet. They can just walk away, a little humbler perhaps, shaking their head about how they could have been so wrong. They also could just change their name and pretend they never believed birther nonsense. Or they could just change and proceed, as some here have done, as G has pointed out.

    People may get more hardened, but that is a different point.

    Anyone can dislike anyone, no need to become friends or think they are saints, without losing sight that the President was born in Hawaii.

    foreigner:
    I’d guess that many people here might have ended as birthers
    if only by some random circumstances they had come at more birther
    articles,videos,contacts , and then early on they had been attacked,
    provoked,ridiculed,insulted by obots/antibirthers –> thus making them
    more and more anti-antibirtherish.
    At that point, even if they discover that some of their original claims were
    debunked, they are reluctant to admit to the typical folks in the forums and blogs.
    Because that would only increase their bad behaviour.
    So things slowly escalate and antibirthers and antiantibirthers fight each other.
    In which camp you end up – almost random.

  259. avatar
    foreigner July 24, 2012 at 9:08 am #

    so you can predict in advance, who will end up as birthers ?

  260. avatar
    foreigner July 24, 2012 at 9:12 am #

    I can’t imagine how to to forge old microfilms.
    And birthers usually assume a stupid forger.
    ————–
    Why would they destroy microfilms when they even still have the bound volume ?
    Microfilms take few storage place.
    ———————–
    seems to me that the feds got all the BCs on microfilm, even the odd numbered ones.

  261. avatar
    Paper July 24, 2012 at 9:16 am #

    Birthers are not stupid. Nevermind the shorthand some people use in exasperation. It takes a lot of intellectual energy to maintain belief in the birther lie.

    Corsi has a PhD. He is not stupid. He just tells lies. Why does he tell lies? Hey, with a little tweaking, that’s a great topic for a PhD thesis!

    My family is full of intelligent people. But many of them on this issue forget where the sky is while they get all excited about nonsense in the rabbit-holes. They misapply their intelligence. Why? Hey, another great idea for a PhD thesis.

    foreigner:
    .
    I’d like to see a study, whether birthers are indeed more stupid than antibirthers,
    and how much. Introduce birther certificates to examine this and make a statistics !

  262. avatar
    misha July 24, 2012 at 9:18 am #

    There are journalists and bloggers of every stripe, who are obsessed with being the next Woodward and Bernstein.

    Look at Nixon and McGovern for just two examples.

    To refuse to acknowledge that, is simply nuts – literally clinical paranoia.

  263. avatar
    AlCum July 24, 2012 at 9:22 am #

    foreigner:
    it’s not so easy for someone who is relatively new to the matter to decide
    who is right.

    Of course it is easy. Hawaii certified the facts of his birth. End of story.

    What was hard about that?

  264. avatar
    misha July 24, 2012 at 9:23 am #

    Paper: Corsi has a PhD. He is not stupid. He just tells lies. Why does he tell lies? Hey, with a little tweaking, that’s a great topic for a PhD thesis!

    My family is full of intelligent people. But many of them on this issue forget where the sky is while they get all excited about nonsense in the rabbit-holes. They misapply their intelligence. Why? Hey, another great idea for a PhD thesis.

    Not to be flippant, but high intelligence and/or multiple degrees, and mental illness are not mutually exclusive.

    I’ve seen it in my family.

  265. avatar
    Scientist July 24, 2012 at 9:30 am #

    foreigner: I can’t imagine how to to forge old microfilms.

    Doesn’t mean it couldn’t be done. Surely things are done every day that you couldn’t imagiine how to do.

    foreigner: And birthers usually assume a stupid forger.

    Again Hawaii vouches for the “forgery”. Therefore, the “forger” either made a document that accurately reflects the truth (why would anyone do that?) or Hawaii is on it. Which are YOU arguing?

    Or could it be (maybe, possibly) that the birth certificate is real?

  266. avatar
    Paper July 24, 2012 at 9:38 am #

    Who are you asking?

    I myself was flabbergasted to find birthers in my family, though not surprised in the slightest they didn’t vote for Obama to be president. Maybe with one of them I should have known, could have guessed if I had thought about it, as he has always been a truther as well, and, like my father, breathes in every conspiracy theory like it is alpine goodness.

    So one probably could study it enough to be fairly clear what characteristics are necessary to become a birther (e.g., has to like conspiracy theories probably), but someone would have to test whether predictions can be made about specific individuals.

    There have been studies, by the way, where the researchers can watch married couples and predict to a high degree who us going to be divorced, just by watching them, no matter how sweet their words are. The main predictive element they discovered? Simple. That would be contempt. If they displayed signs of contempt, no matter what they said, they were extremely likely to get divorced.

    So prediction is possible to a degree. Hate Obama? Love conspiracies? Is that enough? Maybe you also need to be intelligent?

    This is an idle question, but there you go. Some idle thoughts.

    foreigner:
    so you can predict in advance, who will end up as birthers ?

  267. avatar
    JPotter July 24, 2012 at 9:44 am #

    Some thoughts fragments on intelligence, insanity, and the birth of religion:

    Some minds are perhaps understimulated by reality. Or, are taking in too much too fully connect and resolve based on accumulated knowledge. To compensate, they amplify and overprocess, like dreaming even while awake. The mind does not like the unresolved, the unexplained. The mind picks an pattern as explanation and dumps effort into convincing itself the explanation is right. Without discipline and rigid structure, the mind is spastic, and willing to jump down any rabbit hole.

  268. avatar
    foreigner July 24, 2012 at 9:55 am #

    foreigner:
    >> it’s not so easy for someone who is relatively new to the matter to decide who is right.
    G:
    > Yes it is. Only people who have poor critical thinking skills and lack the ability to
    > discern between official sources and gossip tabloids are incapable of figuring this
    > out quickly. Look, if you can’t grasp the difference between actual corroborating
    > physical evidence, coupled with corroborating statements of verification from
    > official authorities and mere unsubstantiated speculation by people with an
    > obvious hate-based agenda, then you are a fool. There is no way around that.

    first you must find those sources. And then we had the official authorities
    speaking of WMDs in Iraq and such, so who knows ?

    > Nor is this whole Birther phenomenon “new” at this point. This nonsense has
    > been going on for 4 years. For someone in this country to be completely unaware
    > of the matter by now is not very credible at all. The ODS pool of people susceptible
    > and sympathetic to BIrtherism have been this way for quite sometime now and
    > everyone else has dismissed the issue as silly nonsense.

    yes, if it were all nonsense then why would it still exist after 4 years …

    >> I’d guess that many people here might have ended as birthers if only by some
    >> random circumstances they had come at more birther articles,videos,contacts ,

    > Nope. Most of us here came to the issue originally, because we too were curious
    > to find out the truth, when we first heard the rumors. For those of us who’ve been
    > around since this phenomenon started, there wasn’t that much to go in in the
    > early months, but the research and amount of corroborating and solid evidence
    > validating his birth and NBC status quickly built up in a matter of months.

    months is not what the average person is willing to spend

    > There simply was no rational doubt left as NONE of the Birther claims held up
    > under scrutiny and there is NO actual real evidence of a contrary story to his
    > HI birth and his NBC status.
    > Most rational people, when hearing such a rumor, would want to quickly check
    > the official source agency for issuing the birth certificate – both to learn about
    > their forms, procedures and most importantly, their stance on the issue.
    > That happens to be the HI DOH. For several years now, they’ve had a dedicated
    > and very detailed page CONFIRMING and corroborating the validity of the BC
    > in extensive detail.
    > Only a bitter denialist would ignore that source and continue to wallow in
    > the BIrther myths. So you’re only left with desperate wishful thinking by
    > those suffering from ODS.

    >> and then early on they had been attacked, provoked,ridiculed,insulted by
    >> obots/antibirthers –> thus making them more and more anti-antibirtherish.

    > There is a big difference between those that reasonably ask naïve questions
    > and those that simply spout off authoritatively, without actually knowing what
    > they are talking about. The former group gets treated well and is given answers
    > and links to their questions in a supportive manner.

    not to my experience. If e.g. someone just makes claims from the “other” party,
    he she is usually already being attacked.
    Or claims that congress should investigate, WH should reply as in my case here.
    Or just uses short lines at fogbow

    > The latter, rightly gets mocked for shooting off their mouths and looking like a fool.

    many of the birthers are quite intelligent and respectable, despite probably being wrong.
    Corsi has a phd, Arpaio,Zullo,Gillar,Zebest,Denninger… make good presentations -I couldn’t do it.
    They are clearly intelligent above average.
    And antibirthers/Obots are being ridiculed at the birther forums in the same way,
    even worse (IMO). They claim the same thing as you here from the other side.

    > Anyone with an ounce of self-respect and personal responsibility should have enough
    > self-awareness to realize that they were wrong and grasp why they came off foolish,
    > when confronted and faced with the actual evidence and facts.
    > It takes a lot of extreme insecurity, personal immaturity and willful denial to
    > “double-down” and dig in on taking bogus positions, once one has been confronted
    > with solid evidence. If you are incapable of adapting and assimilating new information
    > and realizing you were wrong, then you are a fool and deserve to continue to be
    > treated like a fool for that.

    there is evidence and counterevidence – you’ll have to examine it.
    That ounce can’t be absent in such large parts of the population.
    There can’t be so many fools, can it ?

    >> At that point, even if they discover that some of their original claims were
    >> debunked, they are reluctant to admit to the typical folks in the forums and blogs.
    >> Because that would only increase their bad behaviour.
    > There is absolutely nothing “random” about it.

    so predict it ! How many birthers will there be in one year ?

    > Again, you are being absurd.

    just what you say. Although I presented evidence otherwise. Are you a fool ? (I don’t think so)

    > Actually, you are quite WRONG on this assumption. There are numerous folks
    > that started off spouting Birther claims and who were mocked for it, who eventually
    > realized the Birther claims were bogus. I’m not going to “out” names, as some of

    less than 10% of them , I estimate

    > them are now regular anti-birther posters on this forum (or at least visit from time to time),
    > but as soon as they stopped saying ridiculous things, they found that the ridicule went away too.

    ridiculous by your definition would include e.g. having another opinion on
    foreign politics or such ? Or “liking”/quoting one of the birthers ?

    >…Amazing how that works! When you start talking about facts instead of fiction,
    > you begin to regain credibility and people start treating you like a reasonable
    > and rational person again…and people move on from the disagreements of the past.

    not to my experience

    > You should try it more. If you would become more self-aware, you would be able to
    > distinguish that there is a difference between the responses you get, even within
    > your own posts on here. There are a number of times where you’ve brought up
    > relevant points and information and have received reasonable responses to that.
    > You only get flack for the stuff you say that doesn’t stand up well under scrutiny.

    you can always be wrong e.g. on historical data and revise your opinion when new data comes in.
    But that’s not the point. You put people in pre-groups
    e.g. Germany=Goebbels or asking WH to respond = birther or praising Romney=antiobot,
    or making typos=silly, or

    > Unfortunately, you still say way to many things that fall in that latter category.
    > So HINT: The best way to not receive ridicule is to not say ridiculous things… Simple as that.

    let’s get an official list of what’s ridiculous

    foreigner:
    So things slowly escalate and antibirthers and antiantibirthers fight each other.
    In which camp you end up – almost random.
    I’ll take that as an expression of your sense of humor and chuckle along with you. That was funny.
    foreigner:
    I’d like to see a study, whether birthers are indeed more stupid than antibirthers and how much. Introduce birther certificates to examine this and make a statistics !

  269. avatar
    Paper July 24, 2012 at 9:58 am #

    True enough. Though I personally don’t think Corsi, for instance, is mentally ill. That of course means I think that an ill person still deserves some measure of respect, while I do not think Corsi does.

    misha: Not to be flippant, but high intelligence and/or multiple degrees, and mental illness are not mutually exclusive.

    I’ve seen it in my family.

  270. avatar
    Jim July 24, 2012 at 9:59 am #

    foreigner:
    I can’t imagine how to to forge old microfilms.

    I can’t imagine why anyone would believe the White House would create a forged PDF that contains all the same information that is on the record with the State of Hawaii.

  271. avatar
    foreigner July 24, 2012 at 10:05 am #

    AlCum: Of course it is easy. Hawaii certified the facts of his birth. End of story.What was hard about that?

    how to find it ?

  272. avatar
    Thrifty July 24, 2012 at 10:12 am #

    In trying to discern the reliability of an official source, one of the things to consider is what the source has to gain by lying. What would, say, a Republican governor and John McCain supporter have to gain by verifying the birthplace of Barack Obama.

    foreigner: first you must find those sources. And then we had the official authorities
    speaking of WMDs in Iraq and such, so who knows ?

  273. avatar
    Arthur July 24, 2012 at 10:16 am #

    foreigner: yes, if it were all nonsense then why would it still exist after 4 years …

    The fact that you, a self-described resident of Germany, have the temerity to ask that question, when only a generation ago, Germans of all intellectual stripes enthusiastically embraced the murderous nonsense of Nazi racial “science” and Die Endlösung, demonstrates, at least to me, that you are writing from behind a wall of deep blindness–not only of American politics and culture, but more critically, of your own.

  274. avatar
    Thrifty July 24, 2012 at 10:17 am #

    The process by which birthers speculate the long-form was forged is beyond idiotic. The forger put part of Stanley Ann Dunham’s name on one layer, then put most of the rest on another?

    Here’s how you produce forged microfilm. The order of these steps is very important.

    1) Take microfilm.
    2) Decide microfilm is a forgery.
    3) Pick out a series of mundane facts about the microfilm as evidence of forgery. E.g. “there’s a black spot over here, 2 inches above where it shows the date of birth. Only forged microfilms have black spots”.
    4) Demand something else as proof, and bitch incessantly when it isn’t given to you.
    5) Insist that this is a critical issue, and the President absolutely positively needs your vote to win re-election, because you’re so damned important.

    foreigner:
    I can’t imagine how to to forge old microfilms.
    And birthers usually assume a stupid forger.

  275. avatar
    Thrifty July 24, 2012 at 10:18 am #

    I actually have a new theory about birthers. I believe they were actually good, rational people until obnoxious house guests who would never leave drove them insane.

  276. avatar
    Jim July 24, 2012 at 10:23 am #

    Thrifty:
    I actually have a new theory about birthers.I believe they were actually good, rational people until obnoxious house guests who would never leave drove them insane.

    Either that, or a non-white moved into their neighborhood.

  277. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 10:27 am #

    MARK ROCK:
    IT’S JUST A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE YOU LIBERALS CRITICISE THE TECHNICAL ELEMENTS OF COMMUNICATION (UPPER-CASE, INCOMPLETE SENTENCE). . .YOU KNOW THE TRUTH OF OBAMA’S ILLEGITIMACY IS REAL, YOU CAN’T DEAL WITH IT ON A FACTUAL BASIS, SO YOU RESORT TO THE ALINSKY RULE BOOK TO ATTACK THE GOOD GUY ANY WAY YOU CAN . . .TYPICAL FASCIST LIBERAL STATE-IST.

    Can we say “Totally unhinged?”

    Emergency clean-up on Aisle 4.

  278. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 10:29 am #

    Jim: Either that, or a non-white moved into their neighborhood.

    Gee, and here I thought it was because a black man moved into the “White” House.

  279. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 10:40 am #

    Arthur: Of course we know the truth. And we’re laughing all the way to November, when we will join forces with CHAOS and foment a false-flag incident that makes Obama president for life. Then you better watch it, Mark–here come the death panels!

    Arthur, while that’s absolutely hilarious, please be careful. This idiot is actually bound to believe you.

  280. avatar
    misha July 24, 2012 at 10:40 am #

    Arthur: Germans of all intellectual stripes enthusiastically embraced the murderous nonsense of Nazi racial “science” and Die Endlösung

    Die Endlösung; Final Solution – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution

    Martin Heidegger – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Heidegger

    Heidegger called Adolf Schicklgruber ‘the savior of Germany.’

  281. avatar
    Thrifty July 24, 2012 at 10:42 am #

    Yeah but that’s like peeing into the water after an oil spill; things are bad and you’re really not making them any worse.

    bgansel9: Arthur, while that’s absolutely hilarious, please be careful. This idiot is actually bound to believe you.

  282. avatar
    misha July 24, 2012 at 10:43 am #

    Arthur: you are writing from behind a wall of deep blindness–not only of American politics and culture, but more critically, of your own.

    תודה

  283. avatar
    Paper July 24, 2012 at 10:43 am #

    Only takes five minutes, maybe less.

    foreigner: months is not what the average person is willing to spend

  284. avatar
    misha July 24, 2012 at 10:51 am #

    Thrifty: obnoxious house guests who would never leave drove them insane

    “Fish and visitors smell after three days.” – Poor Richard’s Almanack

  285. avatar
    Thrifty July 24, 2012 at 11:07 am #

    Yeah, and they’ve been here for three weeks. They’re allegedly leaving on Thursday morning.

    misha: “Fish and visitors smell after three days.” – Poor Richard’s Almanack

  286. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 24, 2012 at 11:09 am #

    foreigner: how to find it ?

    How about looking?

    Here is the material that’s been up on the Hawaii Department of Health website for quite a while:

    http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/obama.html

  287. avatar
    Paper July 24, 2012 at 11:16 am #

    Believing the President wasn’t born in Hawaii is ridiculous.

    Everything else is just a subset; whether or not any specific point is ridiculous, the top level is ridiculous. Someone can be reasonable about some detail, but that person is not actually being reasonable as a whole if their top level is ridiculous. If the top level is a lie, what does it matter if someone is reasonable about an isolated detail? Great, they can tie their shoes, but they still are walking the streets without clothes.

    foreigner: let’s get an official list of what’s ridiculous

  288. avatar
    justlw July 24, 2012 at 11:30 am #

    foreigner: can’t imagine how to to forge old microfilms.
    And birthers usually assume a stupid forger.

    No, birthers posit Master Ninja time-traveling supercriminals or blindingly stupid oafs, as suits their narrative.

    Master Ninjas obtain the precisely correct 40-year-old stamper. Blindingly stupid oafs then are assigned to find a “19” — literally the defining two-digit combination of the 20th century — fail, throw up their hands, and say “Heck, no one will notice. Just leave it out. Couldn’t find an ’80’ either; anyone got an Xacto knife?”

    Master Ninjas get the right serial numbers for a 1980 registration and insert the card into the GOP-controlled Federal computer system; BSOs write down the wrong date on the card.

    Master Ninjas forge an entire birth certificate in a way that fools everyone but Moldavian dentists; BSOs misspell the definite article and the name of the freaking state.

    If you want the perfect conspiracy, the Master Ninjas and Blindingly Stupid Oafs are your team.

  289. avatar
    Paper July 24, 2012 at 11:43 am #

    People may go overboard with you. It’s possible. Their sarcasm seems sharp because after all you are making a mountain out of a molehill. That you make mountains out of molehills isn’t changed just because some people use extreme references to try to make their point.

    The bottom line is birthers believe something ridiculous.

    You ask way too much in your notions of how they should be treated, or what should be done to satisfy them, by people here, by the President or his staff, by anyone. I myself don’t favor ridiculing the birthers as people, but their belief is ridiculous. Bending over backwards to “satisfy” such people is ridiculous. They cannot be satisfied. This is a very basic human observation, nothing complicated at all, that any battered wife, for instance, comes to learn. Some people have to be cut off, and it does no good to get lost in all the little details. Even Jesus stood quiet in front of Pontius Pilate.

    You may be all in a tizzy about people insulting you, but that is the least of your concerns if you live your life this way, thinking liars need to be satisfied.

    foreigner: But that’s not the point. You put people in pre-groups
    e.g. Germany=Goebbels or asking WH to respond = birther or praising Romney=antiobot,
    or making typos=silly, or

  290. avatar
    Paper July 24, 2012 at 11:48 am #

    John Woodman doesn’t favor President Obama’s policies. He manages not to be ridiculed here.

    foreigner: ridiculous by your definition would include e.g. having another opinion on
    foreign politics or such ? Or “liking”/quoting one of the birthers ?

  291. avatar
    Paper July 24, 2012 at 11:53 am #

    Mere existence is meaningless. All kinds of nonsense exists after centuries even. Some people still seem to believe the earth is flat. Nonsense has a long shelf life. Twinkies last forever; that doesn’t mean they are nutritious.

    foreigner: yes, if it were all nonsense then why would it still exist after 4 years …

  292. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 11:54 am #

    JOHN WAYNE: My neighbor voted for Obummer, thought he was GOD.

    LOL Nobody thought Obama was God. Your neighbor is a figment of your imagination.

  293. avatar
    dunstvangeet July 24, 2012 at 11:54 am #

    foreigner, let’s start with this…

    It is ridiculous to believe that an 18-year-old woman would leave her mother, father, husband (who was taking classes), and travel ten thousand miles away, to “visit” her husband’s family, fly into Nairobi airport (as Mombasa didn’t have international travel at that point), and then instead of going the direction of the people who she was there to supposedly visit, travelled in the exact opposite direction to Mombasa.

    It is ridiculous to believe that the United States State Department would go against the United States Supreme Court and allow the mother of a 6-year old to renounce the citizenship of the minor, despite them specifically saying in Perkins v. Elg that this is prohibited by the Constitution.

    It is ridiculous to believe that the Founders took a term that had hundreds of years of history in English Common Law, and reject the common definition of it, to take a definition of it from a book that didn’t even use the term.

    Would you agree that these are ridiculous? These are 3 direct things that the birthers actually believe.

  294. avatar
    The Magic M July 24, 2012 at 11:57 am #

    Scientist: So, if you allow for an infinite conspiracy, which is the only way birtherism works, document analysis is a dead end.

    It also is for another reason: after the Onaka confirmations, birthers have already switched (as I predicted at least a year ago) to “even if the information matches, how can we know it is correct?”.
    The only reason birthers still ask for more documents is that they are still hoping for proof by negative, i.e. that the documents they ask for do not exist which would then prove that there’s something very wrong with Obama.
    And it’s obvious they are now forced to switch to asking for documents which very likely indeed don’t exist (for entirely non-nefarious reasons). As I said earlier today, after the microfilm (if that should actually exist) they will ask “show us the certified copies kept in the Vatican archives signed by the Pope, then it will all go away”.

  295. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 11:59 am #

    JOHN WAYNE: Results of the poll conducted by Komarovski

    I laugh every time I see that these birther idiots run to the Russians for help. What is up with that?

    I looked up Komarovski’s poll, Orly cites this guy and calls him her Russian friend. LOL

    Orly is Russian too. Birthers LOVE Communist game players. LOL

  296. avatar
    misha July 24, 2012 at 12:05 pm #

    bgansel9: Orly is Russian too. Birthers LOVE Communist game players.

    Orly Taitz is a KGB agent:
    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/02/blog-post.html

  297. avatar
    Paper July 24, 2012 at 12:05 pm #

    Corsi may be intelligent, but he is not respectable. That is a bridge way too far. One of the reason people think of you as a concern troll is because you say things like the Posse made a good presentation! Standing up in front of people and speaking is a pretty low bar for good. Being able to tell lies in public is a low bar for good.

    So if you are not a concern troll, you just might want to raise your standards.

    foreigner: many of the birthers are quite intelligent and respectable, despite probably being wrong.
    Corsi has a phd, Arpaio,Zullo,Gillar,Zebest,Denninger… make good presentations -I couldn’t do it.

  298. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 12:08 pm #

    misha: Orly Taitz is a KGB agent

    That’s funny!

  299. avatar
    Paper July 24, 2012 at 12:12 pm #

    The problem, Horatio, is not in the stars, but in your own standards. You are equating things that are not equal. Here is this huge mountain called a birth certificate verified by Hawaii, affirmed by birth notices in the newspapers back in 1961, basic logic regarding the travel arrangements of a pregnant woman…and over here there are silly discussions about a PDF that has nothing to do with anything.

    If you yourself cannot make that distinction, you may not be a birther, but you are failing at basic observation skills. Forget about insults. No disrespect, but you would fail if this were a class with grades.

    foreigner:

    there is evidence and counterevidence – you’ll have to examine it.
    That ounce can’t be absent in such large parts of the population.
    There can’t be so many fools, can it ?

  300. avatar
    The Magic M July 24, 2012 at 12:13 pm #

    dunstvangeet: travelled in the exact opposite direction to Mombasa

    I never quite understood the fixation on Mombasa. If birthers believe he was born in Kenya, why don’t they keep it open where exactly he was born so they can adjust their story?

    It must have something to do with the conspiracy theory symptom “never admit a single piece of your theory was wrong”. So once they had locked onto Mombasa, they could never say “well, you’re right, it really seems more likely he was born in Nairobi or in Obama Sr’s village”.

  301. avatar
    misha July 24, 2012 at 12:32 pm #

    bgansel9: That’s funny

    Not as funny as Glenn Beck who raped and murdered a girl.

  302. avatar
    misha July 24, 2012 at 12:39 pm #

    The Magic M: I never quite understood the fixation on Mombasa.

    I believe it was Phil Berg, that nogoodnik shonde, who started the birth in Mombasa. Berg lives and works near here in Norristown.

    Readers, if I am wrong, correct me.

  303. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 12:43 pm #

    misha: Not as funny as Glenn Beck who raped and murdered a girl.

    Yes, I’ve seen that before. Thanks for a good laugh though.

  304. avatar
    Jamese777 July 24, 2012 at 12:46 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE:
    That’s ALL BULL…………. !!!!!!!!!!!!!1

    I GAVE a simple exit for you…

    The microfilm, breaking the law yea……………………

    Obummer wrote a letter To HAWAII AND THEY GAVE OBUMMER A FRADULANT BIRTH CERTIFICATE……….. HAWAII COULD HAVE JUST AS EASILY SENT ALONG THE MICROFILM TO PROVE THE FRADULANT BIRTH CERTIFACATE WAS LEGIT. Therefore. Obummer would have the Fradulant Birth Certificate and the Microfilm at the same time.

    Now, you Obummer operative, dig your way out of this. Of course you will and drum up some other story………

    Obummer can easily write another letter to Hawaii, and under a Presidental Decree and DEMAND A MICROFILM AS I DESCRIBED, SEVERAL FRAMES IN FRONT OF OBUMMERS BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND SEVERAL FRAMES AFTER OBUMMERS BIRTH CERTIFICATE………Don’t give me that breaking the law crap………On a matter of national security the microfilm is a requirement.

    You keep forgeting Obummer has to prove he is legit, I do not have to prove anything for the traitor and usurper !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    And, don’t forget, Obummer wants the US to destroy fifty percent of our atomic bomb stock piles. If that is NOT A TRAITOR, then all of you are traitors to the US. just like Obummer is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

    DON’T TREAD ON ME !!!!!!!!!

    If anything John Wayne Gacy says above is true, all the birthers have to do is convince a prosecuting attorney, that’s a City Attorney, a County Attorney, a District Attorney, a state Attorney General’s office, or a US Attorney to launch an official Grand Jury investigation to see if there is enough actual evidence to indict anyone for fraud, forgery or election fraud.
    In the more than four years since President Obama first posted his birth certificate on his 2008 campaign web site, no grand jury investigation has ever been authorized.
    Nixon’s Watergate had a grand jury which resulted in indictments and convictions; Reagan’s Iran-Contra had a grand jury which resulted in indictments and convictions; Bush 1’s Savings and Loan Scandal had a grand jury which resulted in indictments and convictions; Clinton’s Whitewater and Paula Jones scandals had grand juries that led to impeachment plus indictments and convictions; Bush 2’s CIA leaks/Valerie Plame Affair had a grand jury which resulted in indictments and the conviction of Lewis “Scooter” Libby. In four years, there has been no grand jury, no indictments and no conviction of anyone related to Barack Hussein Obama II’s Article II, Section 1 eligibility to be president.

  305. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 12:56 pm #

    Jamese777: If anything John Wayne Gacy says above is true, all the birthers have to do is convince a prosecuting attorney

    Sheriff Joe Arpaio knew of just such an attorney who definitely would have opened an investigation if Sheriff Joe had asked him to (he did all sorts of ugly work for Joe), but since the time that the CCP’s initial investigation began, that attorney has been disbarred. Wonder why Arpaio never convinced Andrew Thomas to open an inquiry? Hmmmm!

    More info here: http://www.azcentral.com/news/politics/articles/2012/04/10/20120410thomas-aubuchon-stripped-their-legal-licenses.html

  306. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 24, 2012 at 12:58 pm #

    foreigner: seems to me that the feds got all the BCs on microfilm, even the odd numbered ones.

    What makes you think that?

    As far as forging microfilm it would be pretty easy. Microfilm is just a picture of a paper document.

    But then there is no evidence there is any microfilm of Obama’s birth certificate(s) and lots of evidence that the records that we have seen are accurate.

  307. avatar
    misha July 24, 2012 at 1:19 pm #

    foreigner: Or claims that congress should investigate, WH should reply as in my case here.

    I don’t know what the laws are like in Deutschland, but this is the States:
    http://www.philly.com/philly/news/new_jersey/163521246.html

    A SOUTH JERSEY police officer’s clever — but creepy — scheme to flirt with a woman on Facebook could land him in jail for up to 10 years, officials in the Camden County Prosecutor’s Office announced Monday.

    Jeffrey Tyther, 44, was on duty in Voorhees on Sept. 9 when he saw a woman pass him on the highway then pulled his police cruiser up behind her car, said Jason Laughlin, a spokesman for the county prosecutor.

    Tyther apparently thought he had found romance on the open road and ran her license plates in the State Police motor-vehicle database to find her information so he could contact her on Facebook, Laughlin said. He sent the woman a friend request two days later — which she ignored, Laughlin said.

    Information on the motor-vehicle database is for criminal investigations only, and Tyther did not pull the woman over or issue her a ticket.

    Tyther, a 14-year department veteran, was suspended without pay from the police department, Laughlin said. He surrendered to police Monday on charges of second-degree computer theft and a fourth-degree charge of violating the Motor Vehicle Record Law.

  308. avatar
    Arthur July 24, 2012 at 1:56 pm #

    bgansel9: Arthur, while that’s absolutely hilarious, please be careful. This idiot is actually bound to believe you.

    Birthers on ORYR are already claiming that the shooting in Aurora CO. was a false-flag incident, designed to make it easier for Obama to take away people’s guns.

  309. avatar
    Arthur July 24, 2012 at 1:57 pm #

    misha: תודה

    You’re welcome!

  310. avatar
    JPotter July 24, 2012 at 2:16 pm #

    Doc, trying to come up with an easy to follow, independent confirmation of the document you have posted as a response to your FOIA request. This is what I came up with. Hope it’s useful, any corrections would be appreciated.
    __________________

    How can we know that the outline of the tape file presented in response to Dr. C’s FOIA request can be relied on?

    Because the codes, for each year, line up perfectly with the description given in the Technical Appendix of that year’s bound volume of Vital Statistics of the US. The 1961 VSUS has been available online since 8/12/05, and not modified since 8/23/05 (refer to the file properties), 3 years prior to the birth of the birther fever swamp!
    ________

    VSUS 1961, vol. 1, NATALITY, Technical Appendix (p 5.7)
    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsus/vsus_1961_1.pdf

    combined with code specs for same year found at:
    Vital Statistics Tape File Information 1960-1961 Natality Tape Files for the United States
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/100438616/Vital-Statistics-Tape-File-Information-1960-1961-Natality-Tape-Files-for-the-United-States

    “Race and color

    “Births in the United States in 1961 are classified for vital statistics into 1) white, 2) Negro, 3) American Indian, 4) Chinese, 5) Japanese, 6) Aleut, 7) Eskimo, 8) Hawaiian and Part-Hawaiian (combined), and 9) ‘other nonwhite.’

    ________

    VSUS 1968, vol. 1, Natality, Technical Appendix (p 3.6)
    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsus/vsus_1968_1.pdf

    combined with code specs for same year found at:
    NATALITY TAPE FILE FOR CALENDAR YEAR 1968: Outline of Tape Record
    http://data.nber.org/natality/1968/Nat1968doc.pdf

    “Race or national origin and color

    “Births in the United States in 1968 are classified for statistical purposes according to the race or national origin of the parents. The categories are 1) “White,” 2) “Negro,” 3) “American Indian,” 4) “Chinese,” 5) “Japanese,” 6) “Hawaiian and Part-Hawaiian,” and 7) “Other.” In most tables a less detailed classification of “white” and “all other” is used.”

    ________

    And now, for some further confirmation, the same exercise for 1972:

    VSUS 1972, vol. 1, Natality, Technical Appendix (p 3.6)
    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/vsus/nat72_1.pdf

    combined with code specs for same year found at:
    NCHS DIV. OF VITAL STATISTICS, 1972-1977 NATALITY DETAIL TAPE DOCUMENTATION
    http://data.nber.org/natality/1974/nat72_77.pdf

    “Race or national origin and color

    “Births in the United States in 1972 are classified for statistical purposes according to the race or national origin of the parents. The categories are 1) “White,” 2) “Negro,” 3) “American Indian,” 4) “Chinese,” 5) “Japanese,” 6) “Hawaiian,” 7) “Filipino,” and 8) “Other.”

    “The newborn child is ordinarily assigned to the race or national origin of his parents. If the parents are of different races or national origins, the following rules apply: (1) When only one parent is white, the child is assigned the other parent’s race’ or national origin. (2) When neither parent is white, the child is assigned the father’s race or national origin with one exception; if the mother is Hawaiian or part-Hawaiian, the child is assigned to Hawaiian. If race is missing for one parent, the child is assigned the race of the parent for whom race is given. When information on race is missing for both parents, the race of a child is considered not stated and the birth is allocated according to rules discussed in the section “Race or national origin not stated.”

    ____________________

    Why, look at that, yet another confirmation that “race of child” is derived “race of parents” (similar text is found in all editions of VSUS, available at links above). And the codes changed *again*. They also include a “0 – Guamian”. Which they didn’t mention in the VSUS. Poor Guam.

  311. avatar
    AlCum July 24, 2012 at 2:55 pm #

    foreigner: how to find it ?

    How hard is it for you to pick up a paper? It was in the news.

  312. avatar
    El Diablo Negro July 24, 2012 at 2:55 pm #

    Jamese777: In four years, there has been no grand jury, no indictments and no conviction of anyone related to Barack Hussein Obama II’s Article II, Section 1 eligibility to be president.

    And that’s a bad thing? Why is it suspicious that nothing has been done wrong?

  313. avatar
    foreigner July 24, 2012 at 2:59 pm #

    we were talking about how someone might end up as birther
    after happening on some birther article.
    How that someone was supposed to get the idea of
    going to the Hawaii DOH webpage and finding
    the confirmations

  314. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 3:09 pm #

    foreigner: we were talking about how someone might end up as birther
    after happening on some birther article

    You mean the same people who became Chemtrail “experts” after reading conspiracy websites?

  315. avatar
    JPotter July 24, 2012 at 3:10 pm #

    foreigner: we were talking about how someone might end up as birtherafter happening on some birther article.How that someone was supposed to get the idea ofgoing to the Hawaii DOH webpage and findingthe confirmations

    By being skeptical. And independently verifying call claims, before committing to them, and absolutely before propagating them.

    It’s called critical thinking, research, and due diligence. You should subject everything you are unsure to the same standard.

    How does someone become a birther from scratch? They are exposed to a birther meme and have no pre-existing knowledge to judge it by. If they like what they hear, and wish it were true, they decide to commit to it instead of considering, examining, researching. Likewise, if they don’t like what they hear, they may reject it without due consideration.

    The problem compounds when they run into a similar claim and refer back to an erroneous commitment/rejection. Now they have doubled down, and become more resistant to critical evaluation of new information. They have decided they “know” something … w/o reason.

    This is how anyone becomes a birther, or a follower of any fallacy.

  316. avatar
    Jamese777 July 24, 2012 at 3:32 pm #

    bgansel9: Sheriff Joe Arpaio knew of just such an attorney who definitely would have opened an investigation if Sheriff Joe had asked him to (he did all sorts of ugly work for Joe), but since the time that the CCP’s initial investigation began, that attorney has been disbarred. Wonder why Arpaio never convinced Andrew Thomas to open an inquiry? Hmmmm!

    More info here: http://www.azcentral.com/news/politics/articles/2012/04/10/20120410thomas-aubuchon-stripped-their-legal-licenses.html

    Andrew Thomas resigned as Maricopa County Attorney before Sheriff Arapio constituted the Cold Case Posse’. Thomas resigned in order to run for Attorney General of Arizona.
    Thomas lost in the Arizona Republican Primary to Tom Horne who was elected state Attorney General.

  317. avatar
    Jamese777 July 24, 2012 at 3:34 pm #

    El Diablo Negro: And that’s a bad thing? Why is it suspicious that nothing has been done wrong?

    Who said or even implied that it was a bad thing? Not me. It’s just a fact and its a fact that casts doubt on the legitimacy of the entire birther movement.

  318. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 3:35 pm #

    JPotter: This is how anyone becomes a birther, or a follower of any fallacy.

    Robert Altemeyer tends to think these people have a predilection for authoritarian beliefs. His book is quite interesting. He has made a pretty good case that if someone reads a fallacy meme and automatically buys into it, they were looking for an explanation for whatever societal ills they believe are to be blamed on a culprit and will never shake their confirmation bias. If they believe Obama is the anti-Christ, obviously he can’t possibly have been born legitimately. These people are mentally confused, perhaps even insane. I think there is little hope that we can expect them to actually read anything with an open mind, unfortunately.

  319. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 3:42 pm #

    The book, in case anyone doesn’t know what it is: The Authoritarians (book available online for free in a 1 link pdf file, easy to read): http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

  320. avatar
    Scientist July 24, 2012 at 4:12 pm #

    foreigner: we were talking about how someone might end up as birtherafter happening on some birther article.How that someone was supposed to get the idea ofgoing to the Hawaii DOH webpage and findingthe confirmations

    I’m sure I read birther propaganda before I ever read anything specifically “anti-birther”. I was on some message board discussing the 2008 election and some fool posted some nonsense about Obama’s mother going on some ridiculous excursion to Kenya to give birth. The story made 0 sense then and still makes 0 sense. Then Obama released his COLB. This same moron claimed, “That’s not a birth certificate. A birth certificate has to have the doctor’s signature and the hospital on it”. So, I looked at my birth certificate, my wife’s and my kids’. No doctor’s signature and no hospital. The exact same fields as on Obama’s.

    It was blatantly obvious the birthers were full of excrement in 2008. That excrement certainly has not turned into gold 4 years later, it’s just gotten older and stinkier.

  321. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 4:48 pm #

    I think you are definitely onto something. That made a lot of sense. Good post!

    JPotter:
    Some thoughts fragments on intelligence, insanity, and the birth of religion:

    Some minds are perhaps understimulated by reality. Or, are taking in too much too fully connect and resolve based on accumulated knowledge. To compensate, they amplify and overprocess, like dreaming even while awake. The mind does not like the unresolved, the unexplained. The mind picks an pattern as explanation and dumps effort into convincing itself the explanation is right. Without discipline and rigid structure, the mind is spastic, and willing to jump down any rabbit hole.

  322. avatar
    nbc July 24, 2012 at 4:51 pm #

    foreigner: we were talking about how someone might end up as birther after happening on some birther article.

    Mostly ignorance and fear. People fear the unknown, the stranger and having a black President can be seen as quite a threat to many. Combine this with irrational fears about socialism and communism and the need for strong ‘tribe’, such people gather around with like minded people and continue to reinforce their beliefs, unable to accept any contrary data sources.

    Look up the ‘Republican Brain’ which correlates political leanings with some interesting ‘qualities’ including authoritarianism, ability to handle ambiguity etc.

  323. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 5:16 pm #

    There is a big difference between noting that governments /people can be corrupt and lie and jumping to wild conclusions that since it is capable of happening and has happened, that it must be happening everywhere. That is the definition of irrational paranoia.

    The difference here is that, when looked into, credible evidence to support WNDs in Iraq wasn’t there.

    Exactly the OPPOSITE took place when looking into Obama’s birth. EVERY bit of actual evidence that turned up has CORROBORATED his birth story in HI.

    So your sample argument fails, because you are comparing night and day here.

    foreigner:
    first you must find those sources. And then we had the official authorities speaking of WMDs in Iraq and such, so who knows ?

    Again, your conclusion is bogus, because it ignores the actual MOTIVE of Birtherism – they hate Obama and can’t accept that he won the election. They don’t want the truth, they just want *any* excuse that can remove him from office…or worse. They’ve just decided to hang their hat on the Birtherism myths as their best hope of “erasing” him. It is a failed and foolish strategy, but that is what they have committed themselves emotionally to, nonetheless.

    Therefore, the nonsense exists and will continue to exist for as long as he is President…and for some, as long as he is alive, simply because THAT is what the Birthers are really against.

    foreigner:
    yes, if it were all nonsense then why would it still exist after 4 years …

    “Months” only applies to the very beginning of the whole phenomenon, when it just got started. At the beginning of any investigation, not much is known and it takes awhile to uncover enough convincing and corroborating evidence to sufficiently get to the bottom of what is going on. Nothing atypical about that at all.

    However, that has not been the case for the past few years. So much is now known that as others have repeatedly pointed out to you, less than 5 minutes would be required by any competent and rational person. So there is simply NO longer any excuse for any honest and rational person to cling to such Birtherism nonsense these days. There hasn’t been for quite some time.

    foreigner:
    months is not what the average person is willing to spend

  324. avatar
    nbc July 24, 2012 at 5:25 pm #

    foreigner: yes, if it were all nonsense then why would it still exist after 4 years …

    Simple, group reinforcement, confirmation bias and an intent dislike or fear of the person.

    Look at 9/11 for example. The human mind is quite able to ignore logic and reason…

  325. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 5:31 pm #

    Again, you are simply choosing to pay attention to only what you wish to see and selectively ignoring what doesn’t fit your pre-drawn conclusions. Yes, even YOUR experience here is proof of what I said. If you would take the time to objectively review your full body of comments even just on here and the responses they received, you would see that there is a difference in the types of responses you get, based on what you have said. There is a pattern between your actions and the reaction they engender.

    When your tone and line of questioning comes across like typical concern trolling, or you draw weak conclusions that are easy to challenge, you get called out and receive less tolerant responses.

    However, anytime you have stuck to a more reasonable tone and given valuable information or asked a sensible question, you have generally received responses in kind. This continues to happen, despite your history of prior Concern Troll behavior. So there, you yourself are living proof on here that the reactions you engender are adaptive and a direct result of how you come across. You may reasonably argue that at times, your intent has been misunderstood, but that too should cause you to partially reflect on why you got that response and rethink if perhaps you could have stated things better in order to not receive that negative reaction.

    foreigner:
    not to my experience. If e.g. someone just makes claims from the “other” party, he she is usually already being attacked.

    Many of the BIrthers have spent the past 4 years in extensive writing campaigns to their Congressmen on this issue. Congress is NOT unaware of the Birther phenomenon by any stretch of the means. Crazy people write letters and make demands to their government representatives all the time. Crazy requests are simply appropriately ignored. At most, a form letter will be generated back to simply acknowledge the received request.

    Bottom line, there is ZERO evidence that backs up any of the Birther claims. Without that, there is NOTHING for Congress to go off of to investigate. Speculation and rumors are NOT evidence. On the other side, you have the ONLY official authority on the matter of a HI BC repeatedly vouching for its authenticity and both the COLB and LFBC in the public domain, along with corroborating birth announcements from the 1961 newspapers.

    A congressional investigation would need to follow similar rules of evidence as the courts do, in order to actually pursue a matter. The Birthers have lost EVERY challenge they’ve made, because they’ve got ZERO actual evidence to back up their claims to bring forth.

    In America, the burden of PROOF lies with the ACCUSER. The accused doesn’t have to do anything, until the accuser has sufficient evidence in advance to even bring a case forward at all. See the” Jablonski Empty Chair Defense” and why it worked.

    foreigner:
    Or claims that congress should investigate,

    They have. Obama released the COLB and the LFBC and they’ve stood by it and said its real. That is their position and that hasn’t changed. They don’t have to keep repeating it endlessly. Just as they don’t have to waste time announcing that the sun came up every morning either.

    Look, a child can continue to say “are we there yet” endlessly on a car trip. The first few times, you might decide to respond and tell the child that “no, we are not.” If they persist in repeating this, one tends to lose patience and just ignore them.

    foreigner:
    WH should reply as in my case here.

    There is NO connection between a private website, such as fogbow or here and the White House. Again, you are just being silly.

    foreigner:

    Or just uses short lines at fogbow

  326. avatar
    charo July 24, 2012 at 5:46 pm #

    nbc: Mostly ignorance and fear. People fear the unknown, the stranger and having a black President can be seen as quite a threat to many.

    By this point in time, Black people have achieved positions of authority all across the spectrum. Don’t you believe that it is more of the idea that someone with ideas foreign to what they believe is the American experience is at the heart versus the color of skin? I mean generally. President Obama, no matter where you think he was born, did not live the typical American experience, particularly as a Black American. He went to private school in Hawaii. He went to Ivy League schools. He lived overseas. I don’t personally know anyone who lived that kind of life as a youth. He had some notable people in his life that are controversial. We can debate politics (which I would rather not*), but these so-called “studies” are bunk IMO.

    * My position regarding him was established when I first learned of this: http://www.jillstanek.com/2008/02/links-to-barack-obamas-votes-on-illinois-born-alive-infant-protection-act/ (babies born prematurely by induced labor due to unwanted pregnancies were left to die on shelves in laundry closet-rationale behind bill)

  327. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2012 at 5:49 pm #

    G: Look, a child can continue to say “are we there yet” endlessly on a car trip. The first few times, you might decide to respond and tell the child that “no, we are not.” If they persist in repeating this, one tends to lose patience and just ignore them.

    As in, count the number of times “foreigner” has repeatedly asked the exact same questions ad nauseam (going back many months here) without regard for any of the polite and reasonable replies (discounting the “get a grip, moron” replies) or thrown back little more than the same fallacies of false equivalence over and over and over and over again.

    I suppose secluded concern trolls have hobbies too.

  328. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2012 at 5:54 pm #

    charo: Don’t you believe that it is more of the idea that someone with ideas foreign to what they believe is the American experience is at the heart versus the color of skin?

    It’s both. Did you live in the South at any time in the last 50 years?

    http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map

  329. avatar
    charo July 24, 2012 at 5:58 pm #

    Majority Will: It’s both. Did you live in the South at any time in the last 50 years?

    http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map

    Yes, but I wouldn’t call Florida Deep South. Pockets of racism exist; racists exist, but this is not 50 years ago.

  330. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 24, 2012 at 6:08 pm #

    Jamese777: Andrew Thomas resigned as Maricopa County Attorney before Sheriff Arapio constituted the Cold Case Posse’.

    Not true. Arpaio created the Cold Case Posse in 2006.

    http://www.mcsoccp.org/joomla/index.php/about-ccp

    Andrew Thomas resigned in 2010.

  331. avatar
    Scientist July 24, 2012 at 6:08 pm #

    charo: He went to private school in Hawaii. He went to Ivy League schools. He lived overseas. I don’t personally know anyone who lived that kind of life as a youth.

    Mitt Romney went to a private school in Michigan, went to Harvard and lived overseas.

  332. avatar
    BillTheCat July 24, 2012 at 6:12 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE: That’s ALL BULL…………. !!!!!!!!!!!!!1

    U Mad?

    And “Obummer” – HA! That’s hilarious! Come up with that all by yourself?

    Also:

    “And, don’t forget, Obummer wants the US to destroy fifty percent of our atomic bomb stock piles”

    You mean our outdated, completely unnecessary stockpile of armageddon weapons? The ones everyone else in the world wants to be rid of as well? The ones we’ve agreed to get rid of because of our agreements with Russia? Don’t worry “Cowboy”, we’ll still have enough to kill the entire planet 50 times over, don’t you worry your purty lil head.

  333. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 6:15 pm #

    We’ve looked closely into every Birther claim we’ve come across. There is ZERO actual “counter evidence” at all.

    You seem incapable of distinguishing between ACTUAL credible evidence (the BC, the newspaper announcements, everything uncovered via FOIA requests on his parent’s backgrounds, the HI official statements, court rulings, etc) and what the Birthers have brought forth – which amounts to nothing more than lots of innuendo and speculation, with NO actual real evidence behind it.

    foreigner:
    there is evidence and counterevidence – you’ll have to examine it.

    Are you kidding me? What planet do you live on? The world is full of fools, ignorance, intolerance and gullible people. Millions of people believe in all sorts of crazy nonsense. Welcome to reality.

    foreigner:
    That ounce can’t be absent in such large parts of the population. There can’t be so many fools, can it ?

    Significantly less than there are now, as fear of his re-election is a major motivator for many to simply spout these specious smears. As Presidents can only serve 2 terms in this country, the propagandist sector, simply trying to foolishly impact an election, goes away after that. Much of the motive for Birtherism will simply be gone by next February – you either have someone new inaugurated or Obama inaugurated into his second term.

    From the “true believer” factions of the Cult – many of them will probably wail on about this nonsense until their dying day…but their rants will become more irrelevantly obscure over time. It is no different from any other paranoid conspiracy delusion out there. Just as there are still 9/11 Truthers out there and people who talk about the evils of fluoride in the water and who deny that the Moon Landing took place. They still exist, but nobody else cares.

    foreigner:
    so predict it ! How many birthers will there be in one year ?

  334. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 6:15 pm #

    What “evidence” have you presented at all? None that I’ve seen. You don’t seem to actually understand what actual evidence is…

    Half-baked and unsubstantiated hypotheses are NOT evidence.

    All I’ve seen from you is lazy thinking, poorly thought out rationales and classic Concern Trolling.

    foreigner:
    just what you say. Although I presented evidence otherwise. Are you a fool ? (I don’t think so)

    If you are trying to estimate how many former Birthers have simply accepted evidence and dropped Birtherism, that is very hard to quantify in anything other than a wild guesstimate. So I have no basic criticism of your guess here. I too would hazard a guess that it is a minority of the whole, but there simply isn’t enough data to quantify it.

    As the basis for Birtherism is predisposition to dislike and be suspicious of Obama, it simply is a matter of what segment of that predisposed population is capable of accepting reason over their emotional needs.

    foreigner:
    less than 10% of them , I estimate

    Again, you are simply displaying your own ignorance in jumping to that incorrect conclusion. A number of the regular anti-birthers on this very site are NOT Obama supporters at all. They did NOT vote for him last time and will NOT be voting for him this cycle either. They simply do NOT like lies and prefer factual-based rational thinking over made up smears. They are emotionally mature enough to recognize the difference between not liking Obama and accepting that he’s eligible for the position and was elected President, despite their preferences for someone else.

    The “anti-birther” regulars here include a number of Republicans, Conservatives and Libertarians. So there. Again, you just make yourself look like a fool by jumping to your ignorant and patently false conclusions.

    foreigner:
    ridiculous by your definition would include e.g. having another opinion on foreign politics or such ? Or “liking”/quoting one of the birthers ?

    Then you are willfully blind and refusing to see anything beyond what you simply wish to see. That is your problem and your failing.

    foreigner:
    not to my experience

    But YES, that is EXACTLY the whole point! Reasonable people adapt their positions, when faced with new data. Reasonable people can discern between credible evidence and unsubstantiated rumor. Reasonable people can distinguish between actual sources of authority and agenda-based propaganda.

    foreigner:
    you can always be wrong e.g. on historical data and revise your opinion when new data comes in.
    But that’s not the point.

    Now you are accusing me of what others have done. You are just coming up with immature excuses as a dodge.

    foreigner:
    You put people in pre-groups e.g. Germany=Goebbels or asking WH to respond = birther or praising Romney=antiobot,
    or making typos=silly, or

    All the myths of Birtherism, for a start.

    foreigner:
    let’s get an official list of what’s ridiculous

  335. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 6:19 pm #

    EXACTLY! Well said.

    Paper:
    Believing the President wasn’t born in Hawaii is ridiculous.

    Everything else is just a subset; whether or not any specific point is ridiculous, the top level is ridiculous. Someone can be reasonable about some detail, but that person is not actually being reasonable as a whole if their top level is ridiculous. If the top level is a lie, what does it matter if someone is reasonable about an isolated detail? Great, they can tie their shoes, but they still are walking the streets without clothes.

  336. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2012 at 6:20 pm #

    charo: Yes, but I wouldn’t call Florida Deep South. Pockets of racism exist; racists exist, but this is not 50 years ago.

    It’s an awfully big pocket. I see racial hatred and bigotry all the time mostly based on ethnicity and skin color. I think it’s far more widespread and prevalent than most Americans want to believe.

  337. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 6:22 pm #

    Bravo! Well put! I agree.

    Paper:
    People may go overboard with you.It’s possible.Their sarcasm seems sharp because after all you are making a mountain out of a molehill.That you make mountains out of molehills isn’t changed just because some people use extreme references to try to make their point.

    The bottom line is birthers believe something ridiculous.

    You ask way too much in your notions of how they should be treated, or what should be done to satisfy them, by people here, by the President or his staff, by anyone.I myself don’t favor ridiculing the birthers as people, but their belief is ridiculous.Bending over backwards to “satisfy” such people is ridiculous.They cannot be satisfied.This is a very basic human observation, nothing complicated at all, that any battered wife, for instance, comes to learn.Some people have to be cut off, and it does no good to get lost in all the little details.Even Jesus stood quiet in front of Pontius Pilate.

    You may be all in a tizzy about people insulting you, but that is the least of your concerns if you live your life this way, thinking liars need to be satisfied.

  338. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 6:24 pm #

    That is also true of John Reilly, Aarrgghh, Loren, Squeeky and several others…

    Paper:
    John Woodman doesn’t favor President Obama’s policies.He manages not to be ridiculed here.

  339. avatar
    Stanislaw July 24, 2012 at 6:29 pm #

    Scientist: Mitt Romney went to a private school in Michigan, went to Harvard and lived overseas.

    Plus, he’s Mormon and the son of a former governor. There’s definitely nothing “typically American” about that.

  340. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 6:30 pm #

    Agreed! Good breakdown in your explanation. Kudos.

    JPotter: By being skeptical. And independently verifying call claims, before committing to them, and absolutely before propagating them.

    It’s called critical thinking, research, and due diligence. You should subject everything you are unsure to the same standard.

    How does someone become a birther from scratch? They are exposed to a birther meme and have no pre-existing knowledge to judge it by. If they like what they hear, and wish it were true, they decide to commit to it instead of considering, examining, researching. Likewise, if they don’t like what they hear, they may reject it without due consideration.

    The problem compounds when they run into a similar claim and refer back to an erroneous commitment/rejection. Now they have doubled down, and become more resistant to critical evaluation of new information. They have decided they “know” something … w/o reason.

    This is how anyone becomes a birther, or a follower of any fallacy.

  341. avatar
    JOHN WAYNE July 24, 2012 at 6:32 pm #

    Obama’s Ratings Dive

    Tuesday, July 24, 2012 6:02:29 PM by Hojczyk

    His personal favorability, once a strong point for Obama, has vanished and is now being replaced by a personal dislike that is dragging him down. These data, buried deep in the latest NY Times/CBS poll (of registered voters, not likely voters) are both stark and important. In April, Obama had a 42-45 favorable/unfavorable rating, itself a shock given his vastly higher favorable ratings only a few months before. Now, he has a favorable rating of only 36% and an unfavorable rating of 48%. The NY Times poll showed Romney getting 47% of the vote compared to 46% for Obama (again,…

  342. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 6:35 pm #

    Agreed. My experiences of being exposed to this particular conspiracy in 2008 and quickly realizing that they didn’t pass the “smell test” are fairly similar.

    Scientist: I’m sure I read birther propaganda before I ever read anything specifically “anti-birther”.I was on some message board discussing the 2008 election and some fool posted some nonsense about Obama’s mother going on some ridiculous excursion to Kenya to give birth.The story made 0 sense then and still makes 0 sense.Then Obama released his COLB.This same moron claimed, “That’s not a birth certificate.A birth certificate has to have the doctor’s signature and the hospital on it”.So, I looked at my birth certificate, my wife’s and my kids’.No doctor’s signature and no hospital.The exact same fields as on Obama’s.

    It was blatantly obvious the birthers were full of excrement in 2008.That excrement certainly has not turned into gold 4 years later, it’s just gotten older and stinkier.

  343. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 6:36 pm #

    charo: By this point in time, Black people have achieved positions of authority all across the spectrum. Don’t you believe that it is more of the idea that someone with ideas foreign to what they believe is the American experience is at the heart versus the color of skin?

    If Obama’s ideas are foreign, they were not foreign when I was growing up in the 60’s and 70’s. I don’t understand how someone who vocalizes what is normal to me sounds so “foreign” to YOU.

    More likely, you have been brainwashed to think they are foreign by others who want you to believe they are.

    Oh yeah, I should probably add that I was born into a Caucasian family with fairly well to do Republican parents.

  344. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 6:39 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE: These data, buried deep

    So deep we’re supposed to take your word for it. LOL Dream on.

  345. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2012 at 6:47 pm #

    (excerpt) “His personal favorability, once a strong point for Obama, has vanished . . .

    http://www.dickmorris.com/

    It’s from a Dick.

    Hojczyk is a freeper.

  346. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 6:48 pm #

    Nice cherry-picking of polls for your own personal confirmation bias. I guess whatever helps you emotionally cope, since obviously, the very existence of this particular President is difficult for you to deal with.

    Of course, many recent polls have been showing just the opposite. And Intrade, a good predictor of where people truly will hedge their bets on an outcome shows an overwhelming margin favoring Obama’s chances of re-election over Romney.

    But hey, we’ll all find out in November, won’t we? Some of us will be mature enough to accept and deal with whatever the results are, whether they favor our personal preference or not.

    Others, such as those of your emotional immature mindset, will simply retreat into bitter denial and wallow in endless childish tantrums…

    JOHN WAYNE:
    Obama’s Ratings Dive

    Tuesday, July 24, 2012 6:02:29 PM by Hojczyk

    His personal favorability, once a strong point for Obama, has vanished and is now being replaced by a personal dislike that is dragging him down. These data, buried deep in the latest NY Times/CBS poll (of registered voters, not likely voters) are both stark and important. In April, Obama had a 42-45 favorable/unfavorable rating, itself a shock given his vastly higher favorable ratings only a few months before. Now, he has a favorable rating of only 36% and an unfavorable rating of 48%. The NY Times poll showed Romney getting 47% of the vote compared to 46% for Obama (again,…

  347. avatar
    Jamese777 July 24, 2012 at 6:50 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Not true. Arpaio created the Cold Case Posse in 2006.

    http://www.mcsoccp.org/joomla/index.php/about-ccp

    Andrew Thomas resigned in 2010.

    But the Maricopa County Cold Case Posse’ only began investigating President Obama’s eligibility in September of 2011 after Arpaio made an appearance at a Surprise, Arizona Tea Party meeting and was asked to look into the issue of the President’s eligibility.
    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/09/sheriff_joe_arpaio_assigns_cold_case_posse_to_inve.php
    Thomas was already gone by then.

  348. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 6:56 pm #

    Jamese777: Andrew Thomas resigned as Maricopa County Attorney before Sheriff Arapio constituted the Cold Case Posse’

    Andrew Thomas resigned in 2010. Barack Obama was president for a full year before that time. Why didn’t Arpaio get Thomas involved if he was truly concerned about Obama’s birth origins, considering he’s fighting this issue now? The timing is very suspicious. And as someone pointed out above, the Cold Case Posse has been activated for several years. Are we to believe that Arpaio knew nothing of this issue prior to earlier this year, considering all the birther billboards and lawsuits? Really? Jan Brewer came out and denounced the movement in April 2011. Are you going to tell me Arpaio had no clue about the issue?

  349. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 7:02 pm #

    AGREED. Foreigner has repeatedly behaved as someone who fits the clear definition of an entrenched denialist and classic Concern Troll for a long time now.

    If anything, I consider my responses to be much too tolerant of this child simply repeatedly “are we there yet” over and over and over again…

    Foreigner is just another propagandist-wanna-be, foolishly thinking that taking a disingenuous Concern Troll approach will somehow sow doubt and further the Birther agenda…

    Folks like him/her simply put too much weight into posting comments onto blogs on the internet, as if they are waging some “campaign” here that would in any way impact an election.

    As these people cannot deal with the real-world issues that they don’t like and can’t change, they pretend that arguments between random private folks online somehow can change that reality. They overinflate the importance of their propaganda here, because they can’t deal with their actual impotence in the face of affecting actual real world policy to fit their personal whimsy.

    They also have difficulty in realizing how easily they “out” themselves with their statements and just double down in denial that their Concern Troll tactics are simply not convincing and not persuadable, once they try to pull them outside the confines of Birther sites.

    So, they just complain and throw tantrums for getting ridiculed, instead of realizing that their jig is up and their disingenuous behavior isn’t going to fly here…

    Majority Will: As in, count the number of times “foreigner” has repeatedly asked the exact same questions ad nauseam (going back many months here) without regard for any of the polite and reasonable replies (discounting the “get a grip, moron” replies) or thrown back little more than the same fallacies of false equivalence over and over and over and over again.

    I suppose secluded concern trolls have hobbies too.

  350. avatar
    AlCum July 24, 2012 at 7:03 pm #

    foreigner:
    we were talking about how someone might end up as birther
    after happening on some birther article.
    How that someone was supposed to get the idea of
    going to the Hawaii DOHwebpage and finding
    the confirmations

    It’s up to them. If they want to be stupid, at is hardly society’s problem. For anyone who is the least bit curious, the proof is there and very easily located. Only those predisposed to hate Obama will continue to be birthers despite the proof that their beliefs are wrong.

  351. avatar
    Jamese777 July 24, 2012 at 7:04 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE:
    Obama’s Ratings Dive

    Tuesday, July 24, 2012 6:02:29 PM by Hojczyk

    His personal favorability, once a strong point for Obama, has vanished and is now being replaced by a personal dislike that is dragging him down. These data, buried deep in the latest NY Times/CBS poll (of registered voters, not likely voters) are both stark and important. In April, Obama had a 42-45 favorable/unfavorable rating, itself a shock given his vastly higher favorable ratings only a few months before. Now, he has a favorable rating of only 36% and an unfavorable rating of 48%. The NY Times poll showed Romney getting 47% of the vote compared to 46% for Obama (again,…

    Here are the President’s latest job approval ratings:
    http://www.pollingreport.com/obama_job.htm
    And here are the President’s Favorability Ratings:
    http://www.pollingreport.com/obama_fav.htm
    And here are the latest Obama-Romney matchups:
    http://www.pollingreport.com/wh12gen.htm
    And finally, today’s intrade.com odds on Barack Obama being reelected:
    Obama: 57.2%/Romney: 39.6%
    http://www.intrade.com/v4/markets/contract/?contractId=743474
    http://www.intrade.com/v4/markets/contract/?contractId=743475

  352. avatar
    Jamese777 July 24, 2012 at 7:10 pm #

    bgansel9: Andrew Thomas resigned in 2010. Barack Obama was president for a full year before that time. Why didn’t Arpaio get Thomas involved if he was truly concerned about Obama’s birth origins, considering he’s fighting this issue now? The timing is very suspicious. And as someone pointed out above, the Cold Case Posse has been activated for several years. Are we to believe that Arpaio knew nothing of this issue prior to earlier this year, considering all the birther billboards and lawsuits? Really? Jan Brewer came out and denounced the movement in April 2011. Are you going to tell me Arpaio had no clue about the issue?

    Arpaio’s story is that he got actively involved in birtheritis only after being asked to by the Surprise, Arizona Tea Party at an August, 2011 meeting when Arpaio was a guest speaker.
    Sorry, but I am not privy to the inner workings of what laughingly passes for Joe Arpaio’s “mind,” so I can’t explain his behavior or “thought” patterns.

  353. avatar
    Rickey July 24, 2012 at 7:10 pm #

    G:
    Nice cherry-picking of polls for your own personal confirmation bias.I guess whatever helps you emotionally cope, since obviously, the very existence of this particular President is difficult for you to deal with.

    Of course, “John Wayne” conveniently fails to report that the same poll shows Romney’s favorability rating at 32%. Also, the NY Times cautions that the favorability numbers may be skewed because they decided to ask the favorability questions at the beginning of the poll instead of at the end, where they are usually asked.

    The actual results of the poll are here:

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/07/19/us/nytcbspoll-results.html?ref=politics

    In the most recent McClatchy-Marist Poll, Obama’s favorability rating is 49%.

  354. avatar
    misha July 24, 2012 at 7:14 pm #

    Scientist: Mitt Romney went to a private school in Michigan, went to Harvard and lived overseas.

    Stanislaw: Plus, he’s Mormon and the son of a former governor. There’s definitely nothing “typically American” about that.

    Plus George Romney was chairman and president of American Motors, and was born and spent the first six years of his life in Mexico, in a Mormon polygamist colony.

    Nothing conventional about that.

    As a child, I spent summers at a Zionist day camp. No joke.

  355. avatar
    donna July 24, 2012 at 7:18 pm #

    in the new wsj/nbc poll released tonight:

    Romney Leads on the Economy, Trails Elsewhere

    In the survey of registered voters, 43% said Mr. Romney would provide better ideas on how to improve the economy compared with 36% who said President Barack Obama would do so.

    But by virtually every other metric, registered voters appear to favor the president.

    -Looking out for the middle class? Mr. Obama (49% to 33%)

    -Being knowledgeable and experienced enough to handle the presidency? Mr. Obama (48% to 32%)

    -Being a good commander in chief? Mr. Obama leads by 10 points.

    Despite Mr. Romney’s advantage on economic issues, he appears to have done little to convince voters that he would change “business as usual in Washington,” the poll found.

    He remains statistically tied in that category with Mr. Obama among independents and the broader survey, despite being the challenger.

    And Mr. Obama has yet to make much progress with working-class whites, despite focusing his campaign on bringing fairness to the economy and attacking Mr. Romney as an out-of-touch corporate raider.

    While independents and every income bracket think the current president would be a better watchman for the middle class, white working-class voters still gave a narrow edge in that category to Mr. Romney.

  356. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 7:24 pm #

    Jamese777: Arpaio’s story is that he got actively involved in birtheritis only after being asked to by the Surprise, Arizona Tea Party at an August, 2011 meeting when Arpaio was a guest speaker.

    There are a lot of people around here asking Arpaio to get involved in a lot of things (sexual abuse cases, treating his prisoners in ways that they don’t die, stop targeting latinos in roundups, he’s got literally thousands of civil rights cases against him – I worked in a capacity where I had access to those records), I wonder what caused a little Tea Party group in Surprise to win over Joe when nobody else could? Hmmm!

  357. avatar
    Northland10 July 24, 2012 at 7:25 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE: Spam spam spam spam…

    This troll need not be fed. He has enough Spam to last him until President for Life Obama’s term is over.

    Spamming the same comment on multiple threads… A troll is as a troll does.

  358. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 7:31 pm #

    As others have pointed out, it is a mix of both. There is certainly a lot of what you pointed out involved. But there is also a lot of clear racial and religious-based motivations within the movement as well. The Birthers are certainly NOT a monolithic block in their motivations.

    charo:
    By this point in time, Black people have achieved positions of authority all across the spectrum. Don’t you believe that it is more of the idea that someone with ideas foreign to what they believe is the American experience is at the heart versus the color of skin?

    True, to an extent. But then again, what major Presidential candidate in memory happened to live the “typical American experience”? Most of them went to Ivy League schools. Most of them had “controversial” figures they encountered in life. Of course, what you personally consider “controversial” as opposed to what another American considers “controversial” is simply a matter of opinion, perspective and taste. But in the business of guilt-by-association politics, I can’t think of a campaign that didn’t have accusations of trying to point out connections between that candidate and some “controversial” figure.

    So we are back to the truly “unique” factors that differ in Obama’s “experience” as being the color of his skin, the sound of his name, and spending part of his childhood living oversees…

    charo:
    I mean generally.President Obama, no matter where you think he was born, did not live the typical American experience, particularly as a Black American. He went to private school in Hawaii.He went to Ivy League schools.He lived overseas.I don’t personally know anyone who lived that kind of life as a youth. He had some notable people in his life that are controversial.

    You are entitled to your opinion. I would disagree that these studies are “politics” as much as attempts to explore and understand the basis of much broader ideological world-views. IMO, I can see where particular details of these studies can be challenged, but overall, a number of their conclusions seem to have a foundation of evidentiary basis behind them. So I see a big difference between simply not liking what the results point to and being able to debunk the claims as not holding up under scientific scrutiny.

    charo:
    We can debate politics (which I would rather not*), but these so-called “studies”are bunk IMO.

    So in general words, you fall into that category of “single issue voters” on the Abortion issue. This is not an “attack” by pointing this out Charo, simply an observation. I may personally disagree with that position and even with the entire position of “single issue voting”, but I fully recognize that many people vote and feel this way. After all, this is America and you are free to cast your vote, based on the reasoning of your choice.

    But I fail to see any connection between Abortion issue arguments and presidential eligibility. It is one thing to say to oppose a candidate’s position on a particular issue. It is quite another thing to need to convert that disagreement into excuses to need to hate, dehumanize and smear someone you disagree with on a viewpoint.

    charo:
    * My position regarding him was established when I first learned of this: http://www.jillstanek.com/2008/02/links-to-barack-obamas-votes-on-illinois-born-alive-infant-protection-act/(babies born prematurely by induced labor due to unwanted pregnancies were left to die on shelves in laundry closet-rationale behind bill)

  359. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 7:45 pm #

    That would be the urging and big-money influence of both WND and Tom Ballantyne from behind the scenes…

    bgansel9: I wonder what caused a little Tea Party group in Surprise to win over Joe when nobody else could? Hmmm!

  360. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 24, 2012 at 8:02 pm #

    Your comment has nothing to do with the current article. I’m putting you in moderation status to prevent this in the future. More work for me.

    JOHN WAYNE: Obama’s Ratings Dive

    Tuesday, July 24, 2012 6:02:29 PM by Hojczyk

  361. avatar
    Keith July 24, 2012 at 8:03 pm #

    charo: By this point in time, Black people have achieved positions of authority all across the spectrum. Don’t you believe that it is more of the idea that someone with ideas foreign to what they believe is the American experience is at the heart versus the color of skin? I mean generally. President Obama, no matter where you think he was born, did not live the typical American experience, particularly as a Black American. He went to private school in Hawaii. He went to Ivy League schools. He lived overseas. I don’t personally know anyone who lived that kind of life as a youth. He had some notable people in his life that are controversial.

    I don’t personally know anyone who was born in the Canal Zone, spent time as Prisoner of War in Viet Nam, and whose father commanded a Submarine Base and hung out with Admiral Halsey. That isn’t a “Typical” American Experience either. Does that make John McCain somehow ‘not American’?

    John Kennedy’s father was a bootlegger and an ambassador and JFK met a lot of controversial figures. That is not ‘typical’ American experience either, was JFK less of an “American” because of it?

    The American Motto is E Pluribus Unum which translates to “From Many, One.”

    The greatest thing about America, its absolute number one strong point (IMHO), is its embrace of diversity. The only “Typical American Experience” is that Everyone’s American Experience is different.

  362. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 8:07 pm #

    Agreed. Well said!

    Keith: The greatest thing about America, its absolute number one strong point (IMHO), is its embrace of diversity. The only “Typical American Experience” is that Everyone’s American Experience is different.

  363. avatar
    justlw July 24, 2012 at 8:17 pm #

    charo: He went to private school in Hawaii. He went to Ivy League schools. He lived overseas.

    A president who went to Ivy League schools? Whoa!

    Yes, I can see how that’s the thing that differentiates this president from any who came before him.

    Oh, I forgot, there’s the “private school” and “lived overseas” things. If those are showstoppers, you’re kind of hosed in the next election, aren’t you.

  364. avatar
    justlw July 24, 2012 at 8:23 pm #

    charo: My position regarding him was established when I first learned of this: http://www.jillstanek.com/2008/02/links-to-barack-obamas-votes-on-illinois-born-alive-infant-protection-act/ (babies born prematurely by induced labor due to unwanted pregnancies were left to die on shelves in laundry closet-rationale behind bill)

    Yi. If this is really what set you against Obama, their work is done. The bill added no protections that were not already in place. It was designed precisely to create this wedge meme; it had no other purpose.

  365. avatar
    sfjeff July 24, 2012 at 8:28 pm #

    charo: President Obama, no matter where you think he was born, did not live the typical American experience, particularly as a Black American. He went to private school in Hawaii. He went to Ivy League schools. He lived overseas. I don’t personally know anyone who lived that kind of life as a youth. He had some notable people in his life that are controversial.

    I bring to you John Quincy Adams

    John Quincy Adams spent 2 years in France and 2 years in the Netherlands as a child, and at 14 years old was sent as a secretary to Russia! Educated largely in foreign schools.

    His father was known to hang out with hot heads promoting revolution.

    Went to Harvard also.

    And why is going to school in Hawaii a sign of suspicion anyway?

  366. avatar
    justlw July 24, 2012 at 8:28 pm #

    I had to look it up. Charo is right. Since only 1/3rd of our presidents have gone to Ivy League schools, and that’s less than a majority, that’s clearly a sign of other-ness.

  367. avatar
    charo July 24, 2012 at 8:30 pm #

    justlw: A president who went to Ivy League schools?Whoa!

    Yes, I can see how that’s the thing that differentiates this president from any who came before him.

    Oh, I forgot, there’s the “private school” and “lived overseas” things.If those are showstoppers, you’re kind of hosed in the next election, aren’t you.

    I gave my reason for not considering a vote for Obama. Maybe you didn’t see it. It has nothing to do with those factors.

    It comes down to two candidates. People will pick the one they want to lead. For someit can be described as a choice between the lesser of two evils, not that they voted for a “man of the people.” Do you really believe anyone but the bloggers and their loyal followers on both the “birther” and “anti-birther” blogs know all of the minutiae discussed here?

  368. avatar
    justlw July 24, 2012 at 8:32 pm #

    charo: He had some notable people in his life that are controversial.

    And yet the Republicans at one time fronted a candidate for vice president, who, in their memoir, proudly boasted of sleeping with a member of a political party whose sole aim was breaking up the United States of America. You know, you can’t get much more controversial than that.

  369. avatar
    DP July 24, 2012 at 8:34 pm #

    JOHN WAYNE:
    Obama’s Ratings Dive

    Tuesday, July 24, 2012 6:02:29 PM by Hojczyk

    His personal favorability, once a strong point for Obama, has vanished and is now being replaced by a personal dislike that is dragging him down. These data, buried deep in the latest NY Times/CBS poll (of registered voters, not likely voters) are both stark and important. In April, Obama had a 42-45 favorable/unfavorable rating, itself a shock given his vastly higher favorable ratings only a few months before. Now, he has a favorable rating of only 36% and an unfavorable rating of 48%. The NY Times poll showed Romney getting 47% of the vote compared to 46% for Obama (again,…

    Why do you think that’s relevant at all? This discussion isn’t about whether Obama will, or should, be reelected. It’s about factual truth. And the factual truth is clear: Obama was born in Hawaii, is therefore a natural born citizen, and is therefore eligible to be president, whether any of us want him there or not.

    Resorting to such silliness definitively demonstrates, as if it needed any more demonstration, that you are motivated by an irrational hatred for which you have prostituted any intellectual integrity you may once have had.

    That’s the core problem with birtherism, and why no one takes you seriously: it is a distasteful fusion of hatred and willful dishonesty. It can accomplish nothing save the spiritual degradation of those who traffic in it.

    Is it really so hard to disagree with the party in power and intend to vote against it without descending into shrieking insanity?

  370. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 24, 2012 at 8:35 pm #

    There is no typical American experience. Reminds me of racist literature I read in the 1960’s where they said that the “real negro” didn’t want integration. The “real negro” as opposed to the “unreal negro?”

    charo: President Obama, no matter where you think he was born, did not live the typical American experience, particularly as a Black American.

  371. avatar
    misha July 24, 2012 at 8:37 pm #

    DP: Is it really so hard to disagree with the party in power and intend to vote against it without descending into shrieking insanity?

    That’s the GOP stock-in-trade.

  372. avatar
    charo July 24, 2012 at 8:38 pm #

    justlw: Yi.If this is really what set you against Obama, their work is done. The bill added no protections that were not already in place. It was designed precisely to create this wedge meme; it had no other purpose.

    I call bs, but this is not an appropriate topic for this thread.

  373. avatar
    justlw July 24, 2012 at 8:38 pm #

    charo: gave my reason for not considering a vote for Obama. Maybe you didn’t see it. It has nothing to do with those factors.

    Well, I responded to that, too, so I guess I did.

    You posited a reason why the president might be considered to have “otherness”; I posited why if you really were that worked up about it, you’d have a problem with both major party candidates this time around.

    Feel free to skate away from your own words; I note that you do this a lot.

  374. avatar
    justlw July 24, 2012 at 8:39 pm #

    charo: I call bs, but this is not an appropriate topic for this thread.

    Sorry I brought it up. Oh wait, I didn’t.

  375. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 24, 2012 at 8:41 pm #

    I don’t know any corporate raiders and near-billionaires either.

    Keith: I don’t personally know anyone who was born in the Canal Zone, spent time as Prisoner of War in Viet Nam, and whose father commanded a Submarine Base and hung out with Admiral Halsey.

  376. avatar
    Majority Will July 24, 2012 at 8:42 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    There is no typical American experience. Reminds me of racist literature I read in the 1960′s where they said that the “real negro” didn’t want integration. The “real negro” as opposed to the “unreal negro?”

    Hear, hear.

  377. avatar
    charo July 24, 2012 at 8:43 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    There is no typical American experience. Reminds me of racist literature I read in the 1960′s where they said that the “real negro” didn’t want integration. The “real negro” as opposed to the “unreal negro?”

    I would have no idea about that. I grew up post segregation.

  378. avatar
    charo July 24, 2012 at 8:47 pm #

    justlw: Sorry I brought it up.Oh wait, I didn’t.

    Delving into abortion issues leads to contentious discussions. You indicated your thoughts, I indicated mine. Let’s leave it at that.

  379. avatar
    Jamese777 July 24, 2012 at 8:52 pm #

    bgansel9: There are a lot of people around here asking Arpaio to get involved in a lot of things (sexual abuse cases, treating his prisoners in ways that they don’t die, stop targeting latinos in roundups, he’s got literally thousands of civil rights cases against him – I worked in a capacity where I had access to those records), I wonder what caused a little Tea Party group in Surprise to win over Joe when nobody else could? Hmmm!

    Haven’t you noticed? Arpaio is only interested in right wing causes!
    An editorial that I saw in the Arizona Republic the day after the latest Cold Case Posse news conference nailed it. They pointed out that Arpaio has a well established “wag the dog” pattern of finding an unrelated issue to get media attention through whenever he gets in trouble, the latest trouble being his civil rights violations/racial profiling trial.

  380. avatar
    charo July 24, 2012 at 8:54 pm #

    justlw: Well, I responded to that, too, so I guess I did.

    You posited a reason why the president might be considered to have “otherness”; I posited why if you really were that worked up about it, you’d have a problem with both major party candidates this time around.

    Feel free to skate away from your own words; I note that you do this a lot.

    I should not have said that in the way I did without a better explanation. It seemed to me that Obama himself was trying to present himself as having more of the common man experience. I would not vote for him anyways, and I have honestly stated why.

    Please forgive me.

  381. avatar
    JPotter July 24, 2012 at 8:58 pm #

    Jamese777: Arpaio is only interested in right wing causes!

    Yes, and the rightwing cause du jour is his own butt!

    Today it was warming a witness chair:

    http://www.kpho.com/story/19097786/arpaio-testifies-in-civil-rights-trial

  382. avatar
    charo July 24, 2012 at 9:01 pm #

    justlw: And yet the Republicans at one time fronted a candidate for vice president, who, in their memoir, proudly boasted of sleeping with a member of a political party whose sole aim was breaking up the United States of America.You know, you can’t get much more controversial than that.

    I don’t know the reference or its accuracy, but taking you at your word, that would be extremely wrong.

  383. avatar
    JPotter July 24, 2012 at 9:07 pm #

    The act of filing as a Presidential candidate makes one ‘uncommon’. There were ~200 filed candidates this go ’round, making the odds that you are running 1:1.6M. Pretty darn uncommon. Drop roughly half the population for being under 35, that’s still 1:800K.

    Well, hey, those odds still beat those of hitting the Powerball. 😉

  384. avatar
    justlw July 24, 2012 at 9:25 pm #

    charo: I don’t know the reference or its accuracy, but taking you at your word, that would be extremely wrong.

    The reference was the candidate’s memoir. It was named after the behavior of an animal going berserk and indiscriminately trampling everything in their path, in a self-centered frenzy, without regard to friend or foe.

    Perhaps a rare moment of inner awareness on the part of the candidate.

    If you’d like to learn more, look up this quote by the party in question’s founder:

    “The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government”

    It’s a fascinating story.

    By the way: this particular candidate, as well as having the aforementioned romantic entanglement, also videotaped a warm welcome message to be played at at least one of the party meetings.

    Then get to back to me about Obama’s “controversial” associations and we’ll see how they compare.

  385. avatar
    Scientist July 24, 2012 at 9:38 pm #

    justlw: If you’d like to learn more, look up this quote by the party in question’s founder:
    “The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government”

    charo, would you like a hint?

  386. avatar
    misha July 24, 2012 at 9:47 pm #

    justlw: And yet the Republicans at one time fronted a candidate for vice president, who, in their memoir, proudly boasted of sleeping with a member of a political party whose sole aim was breaking up the United States of America.You know, you can’t get much more controversial than that.

    justlw: “The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government”

    Can I play? I know, I know!!: Sarah Palin. [ding-ding-ding]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Vogler
    Vogler disappeared under suspicious circumstances in May 1993, just weeks before he was scheduled to give a speech to the United Nations on Alaskan independence, sponsored by the government of Iran. Convicted thief Manfried West confessed to having murdered Vogler the following year in what he described as an illegal plastic explosive sale gone bad. West, trying to recant, later said the confession was a lie, but this was before Vogler’s body had been discovered. Vogler’s remains were discovered in a gravel pit east of Fairbanks in October 1994 following an anonymous tip. They had been wrapped in a blue tarp secured with duct tape and were identified through fingerprint analysis. Manfried West was convicted of murdering Joe Vogler and is serving an 80 year sentence.

  387. avatar
    bgansel9 July 24, 2012 at 9:48 pm #

    justlw: And yet the Republicans at one time fronted a candidate for vice president, who, in their memoir, proudly boasted of sleeping with a member of a political party whose sole aim was breaking up the United States of America. You know, you can’t get much more controversial than that.

    My boyfriend figured it out, I was stumped. Sarah Palin was such a good American VP candidate, huh? And, the media pretty much ignored Todd Palin’s association with the Alaska Independence Party.

    Thanks so MUCH, Sarah! ARGH!

  388. avatar
    justlw July 24, 2012 at 9:51 pm #

    charo: Delving into abortion issues leads to contentious discussions.

    Actually, my reaction had nothing to do with my feelings about abortion. You have no clue whatsoever what my feelings are about abortion.

    However, I do have complete disgust for booby-trapped legislation, that forces legislators to vote “no” on something that sounds like only the most reprehensible people on the planet would vote against, because voting “yes” would do something truly bad.

    Something like the “Fund the Trona Amphitheater and Prohibit Kicking Puppies Act of 2013.”

    This particular bill would fund the construction of a 130,000 seat floating amphitheater in Trona, California (which has no bodies of water of any kind that I am aware of; their high school is known for its dirt football field), but it would also, as its name implies, make kicking puppies illegal.

    If I vote against it, I am henceforth known as “Senator Puppy-Kicker.”

    And, just to be clear: kicking puppies is already illegal.

    So, my reaction to the bill you mentioned is not associated with my feelings about abortion, but with my feelings about the sort of people who craft such bills and sit back and watch the puppy-kicking indignity go into “Internet Frenzy” mode.

    And yes, this is actually on topic, as it is about Obama, things that are believed about him that are not necessarily true, and why as a result people are inclined to go in for conspiracy theories about him.

  389. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 10:16 pm #

    All very valid points.

    On the last point, I too think the esoteric details of Birtherism is barely paid attention to by anyone outside of their Cult and those of us hobbyists that pay attention to their cult. The rest of the world’s eyes would just glaze over and yawn, or shake their heads in a collective “whatever”…

    Which is why Birtherism will not be a deciding factor in the election at all. As you correctly noted, those available non-partisan votes will simply come down to which one they prefer (or conversely, which one they dislike less).

    …Although, for some, relatability (a rough equivalence to the sentiment of “man of the people” for the masses) may be that deciding factor, just as a position on Abortion issues could be a deciding factor for others…

    charo:
    It comes down to two candidates. People will pick the one they want to lead.

    For some it can be described as a choice between the lesser of two evils, not that they voted for a “man of the people.”

    Do you really believe anyone but the bloggers and their loyal followers on both the “birther” and “anti-birther” blogs know all of the minutiae discussed here?

  390. avatar
    G July 24, 2012 at 10:20 pm #

    THAT is the crux of the entire issue and why we get quickly become exasperated by those that insist on coming up with these endless arrays of irrelevant and disingenuous excuses…

    DP: Is it really so hard to disagree with the party in power and intend to vote against it without descending into shrieking insanity?

  391. avatar
    justlw July 24, 2012 at 11:15 pm #

    G: On the last point, I too think the esoteric details of Birtherism is barely paid attention to by anyone outside of their Cult and those of us hobbyists that pay attention to their cult.

    At some point in the “Number 9” thread it occurred to me that every one of the participants probably had the LFBC PDF open on their screen.

    EDIT: Worse… some of them might not have.

  392. avatar
    JPotter July 24, 2012 at 11:24 pm #

    G: The rest of the world’s eyes would just glaze over and yawn, or shake their heads in a collective “whatever”…

    The birthers are to blame there. They are driving this bus, we’re just the safety bumpers, the police tape. Somewhere on here I noted that what they needed to “win” (win meaning making a dent in the public consciousness), they should have been developing the big picture, a compelling overall narrative. Instead they’ve gone the other way, shotgunning down into the weeds, chasing increasingly obscure esoterica.

    If you scream, “The President is ineligible!” heads will turn. If you follow it with something about vital statistics that takes 30 min to explain, the same heads will swiftly turn away.

    Unless you have them locked in a church 😉

  393. avatar
    The Magic M July 25, 2012 at 4:10 am #

    JPotter: If you scream, “The President is ineligible!” heads will turn. If you follow it with something about vital statistics that takes 30 min to explain, the same heads will swiftly turn away.

    Which is precisely why “forged BC” has always been their #1 talking point, not Vattelism. It’s much easier to explain one allegedly forged document supported by a handful of co-conspirators covering it up than to explain intricacies of constitutional law combined with the claim that all courts, up to and including SCOTUS, are deliberately misapplying the law.
    The former may influence people into having enough doubts as not to vote for Obama, the latter only applies to conspiracy cranks.

  394. avatar
    The Magic M July 25, 2012 at 4:18 am #

    G: Much of the motive for Birtherism will simply be gone by next February – you either have someone new inaugurated or Obama inaugurated into his second term.

    Who knows? Much of the motive of birtherism has always been “getting rid of the black guy”. I don’t think “waiting another 4 years” is necessarily part of that. There may still be birther handlers whose plan is to incite some lone wolf.

  395. avatar
    G July 25, 2012 at 4:30 am #

    You make a good point. As there are various motives inherent within the Birther psychology, I suspect the array of reactions to his reelection will vary and may include some vary dangerous permutations.

    You bring up a good point that those who simply cannot accept his very existence may finally “snap” when faced with the reality of 4 more years of him. A disturbing thought, indeed.

    For a long time, I’ve suspected that one “upside” to all these crazy Birther “events” (court challenges, letter writing campaigns, Arpaio clown shows, fantasy grand juries, gatherings, etc.) is that they give these denialists a sick form of “hope” fantasy, in which their magic “reset button” exists and can just make it all “go away” …or worse, in which they can inflict “revenge” against his very audacity to seek that office, by removing him.

    But what happens if he gets re-elected? Obviously, we’ll probably see a flurry of some more desperate court attempts to prevent that, at least through the inauguration. But really, the Birthers have so shot themselves in the foot by building such a legal case history paper trail against their claims, that this avenue cannot be sustained much longer. The writing campaigns and other stunts will also have pretty much run their course by then too.

    So, what then?

    I fully suspect we’ll hear the die-hard hold outs increase their clammoring for “secession” and worse as their only recourse left… and THAT will definitely be a cause for concern.

    The Magic M: Who knows? Much of the motive of birtherism has always been “getting rid of the black guy”.I don’t think “waiting another 4 years” is necessarily part of that. There may still be birther handlers whose plan is to incite some lone wolf.

  396. avatar
    foreigner July 25, 2012 at 5:41 am #

    if the birthers are so bad, then it’s also your (plural)
    fault. You failed to convince them.
    Yes, I anticipate, you will say they are just too stupid and nothing will
    convince them and you did this and that and … and it didn’t help.

    But it’s also psychology. You must give them the opportunity to change position
    without losing their face

  397. avatar
    Keith July 25, 2012 at 5:46 am #

    charo: I should not have said that in the way I did without a better explanation. It seemed to me that Obama himself was trying to present himself as having more of the common man experience. I would not vote for him anyways, and I have honestly stated why.

    Please forgive me.

    You are forgiven, there is no question that President Obama didn’t grow up working in a coal mine, but he certainly didn’t have a silver spoon in his mouth either.

    I think Mr. Romney had a much harder time trying to blow smoke our behinds when he moaned that he knew what it was like to be out of work.

  398. avatar
    G July 25, 2012 at 5:50 am #

    Total BS.

    For one, they already “lost face” in terms of credibility the moment they clung to crazy conspiracies, in light of the overwheming evidence made available to them.

    At that point, it becomes crystal clear that they don’t care about ANY result, other than seeing Obama out of office or hanging. There is NO point in trying to convince those that won’t accept the existing evidence. They simply can’t be satisfied by any result that doesn’t end up getting “rid” of Obama, one way or another.

    So no, that is not reasonble and therefore there is no reason nor desire to appease them. Reasonable people can be directed to a site, like the HI FAQ and come to terms with it on their own. If they are still coming here spouting Birther sympathies after that, there is NO reasoning with them.

    Bottom line: You simply can’t reason with someone who shows no sign of being reasonable in the first place. When they display unwillingness to listen to reason, through their own actions, they’ve earned that others will throw in the towel and give up on them.

    foreigner:
    if the birthers are so bad, then it’s also your (plural)
    fault. You failed to convince them.
    Yes, I anticipate, you will say they are just too stupid and nothing will
    convince them and you did this and that and … and it didn’t help.

    But it’s also psychology. You must give them the opportunity to change position
    without losing their face

  399. avatar
    Keith July 25, 2012 at 6:09 am #

    charo: I call bs, but this is not an appropriate topic for this thread.

    True it is off topic, but it is important not to let it just stand there.

    Here is a discussion of Obama’s reasoning on the bill: Obama and Infanticide

    The fact is the bill was not an infant protection bill, it was an anti-abortion bill seeking to override Roe v Wade by stealth.

    Regardless of your opinion on abortion and your opinion of Obama’s position on abortion, accusing him of supporting infanticide is disingenuous at best

    And using your distaste for Obama’s stand on that issue to decide there must be something wrong with his birth certificate is intellectually dishonest.

    It is fine for you to not like Obama’s stand on abortion, and fine for you to not vote for him. There is no reason to bear false witness or to wallow in the mud with poison minded rumor mongers.

  400. avatar
    charo July 25, 2012 at 6:35 am #

    Keith: It is fine for you to not like Obama’s stand on abortion, and fine for you to not vote for him. There is no reason to bear false witness or to wallow in the mud with poison minded rumor mongers.

    Besides supporting partial birth abortion itself, there are many other points regarding life issues that are of concern. They are my concern but probably not yours.

    I never unequivocally stated that the birth certificate was a fraud. Ever. I notice you used the phrase “bear false witness.” Maybe just a figure of speech, but it leans toward a religious judgment call. The most detailed comments I have ever made have occurred here, where there are plenty of people to rebut what I have said. That makes it a more honest debate, IMO, at least for myself, because people will take apart my arguments.

    I don’t have a Jay Carney to come to the board to try and clarify my remarks. I have no DOJ or law firm to defend me. The President has that and more.

  401. avatar
    Majority Will July 25, 2012 at 7:14 am #

    G: Bottom line: You simply can’t reason with someone who shows no sign of being reasonable in the first place. When they display unwillingness to listen to reason, through their own actions, they’ve earned that others will throw in the towel and give up on them.

    That’s some mighty strong irony you got there! 😀

    Time to ignore this bizarre and strangely pathetic concern troll?

    “If they are still coming here spouting Birther sympathies after that, there is NO reasoning with them.”

    Yep.

  402. avatar
    Northland10 July 25, 2012 at 7:43 am #

    G: Bottom line: You simply can’t reason with someone who shows no sign of being reasonable in the first place. When they display unwillingness to listen to reason, through their own actions, they’ve earned that others will throw in the towel and give up on them.

    If Obama did a Cory Booker, ran into a burning house and rescued a family of birthers, they would then accuse him of starting the fire so that he could be the hero by rescuing them.

  403. avatar
    AlCum July 25, 2012 at 8:08 am #

    foreigner:
    if the birthers are so bad, then it’s also your (plural)
    fault. You failed to convince them.
    Yes, I anticipate, you will say they are just too stupid and nothing will
    convince them and you did this and that and … and it didn’t help.

    But it’s also psychology. You must give them the opportunity to change position
    without losing their face

    Nonsense. We share no blame for their insanity. Unless you are responsible for the Colorado theater killer because you failed to stop him from shooting up the theater.

  404. avatar
    JPotter July 25, 2012 at 8:41 am #

    foreigner: You must give them the opportunity to change position
    without losing their face

    Hey, a pop psychology fail!

    ODS is all about the existence of an O and their willingness to accept and move on. Your ‘diagnosis’ is dead wrong. Until they learn to deal with reality on reality’s terms, they will birf.

    De birfers have no face to lose, can only go up from here!

  405. avatar
    Paper July 25, 2012 at 10:16 am #

    Here there are (almost) no faces. You can just change your name and come back free of any birther embarrassment. Or just stop posting. Voila! Back to life and none of that shameful birther indiscretion ever need concern you again. You learn and move on.

    As for the public figures such as Corsi and Arpaio and the rest, forget about saving face. They may escape any legal punishment for their despicable actions, but they deserve shame. Of course, these key players are shameless, but social shaming still serves a role; they are sentenced to their own little circles. They have no hope of being vindicated, so they cannot even hope to come back and show how they were right and everyone else was wrong. They can only act big in tiny ponds. Of course, they could always recant and admit they are scoundrels, and then as Jack Abramoff has demonstrated, they at least could start to build a new life out of the wreck of their behavior.

    None of the birthers I know needed an excuse about being insulted to become a birther. One birther(curious) family member did take a graceful way out when the Long Form was released. I suppose you could consider the Long Form as a way of allowing birthers to save face. So, okay, look at that, the President even took your advice before you gave it. There you go.

    You can’t keep giving chance after chance to abusers. And idle birther curious individuals do not become hardcore birthers because they aren’t given a chance to save face.

    foreigner:

    But it’s also psychology. You must give them the opportunity to change position
    without losing their face

  406. avatar
    CarlOrcas July 25, 2012 at 10:17 am #

    Jamese777: But the Maricopa County Cold Case Posse’ only began investigating President Obama’s eligibility in September of 2011

    Yes, that is true but it isn’t true that the posse was constituted after Thomas quit.

  407. avatar
    Potter, J July 25, 2012 at 10:24 am #

    Paper: You can just change your name and come back free of any birther embarrassment.

    A doubleplusgood point and a capital idea!

    See? Feels just like the first time. 😉

  408. avatar
    bgansel9 July 25, 2012 at 10:31 am #

    Jamese777: Haven’t you noticed? Arpaio is only interested in right wing causes!

    Yes, I’m fully aware of that James. I just wanted to point out that those other things i mentioned (sex crimes, etc) were situations occurring IN MARICOPA COUNTY. This Birther thing has NO JURISDICTION here. (Yes, I realize I’ve got caps up, I’m a bit p*ssed off about that).

  409. avatar
    bgansel9 July 25, 2012 at 10:36 am #

    Keith: True it is off topic, but it is important not to let it just stand there.

    I’m detecting some of these birther types coming here pushing off topic arguments simply BECAUSE they are off topic and thinking they can get away with pushing their rhetoric in those posts. Hmmmm!

  410. avatar
    bgansel9 July 25, 2012 at 10:45 am #

    G: I fully suspect we’ll hear the die-hard hold outs increase their clammoring for “secession” and worse as their only recourse left… and THAT will definitely be a cause for concern.

    While secession has me worried, the idea of solving their problem with an assassination has me terrified.

  411. avatar
    Potter, J July 25, 2012 at 10:51 am #

    bgansel9: This Birther thing has NO JURISDICTION here.

    Viruses look for hosts, weeds look for cracks. Birtherism found a weak point in Arpaio.

    I’d be pissed too, but …

    it contributes to his downfall. At least it’s getting someone out of office!

    Well, accelerating the process anyway; he was already burning down, birtherism just poured on the gas!

    Birtehrism continues to blow up in the faces of all who touch it. Like a hot stove for toddlers. They just can’t stay away!

  412. avatar
    Paper July 25, 2012 at 10:55 am #

    There is something poisonous here. Your sincere, or pretend act of, innocence is actually a poison. If sincere, it is a poison to yourself first and foremost.

    You are basically telling the victim that it is their fault for not convincing the abuser to stop the abuse. And that is poisonous precisely because it plays on the victims psychology, to use your phrase. The battered wife does blame herself for something in which she shares no blame. FInally, she realizes there is no end to the game, if she is fortunate, and then she calls him out, cuts him out, divorces him, calls the police, etc. You, however, would say it is her fault because in a few arguments she called him names or something.

    As for convincing people, probably most or all of the people who could be convinced were convinced by the two birth certificates the President released. That is the opposite of failure.

    This site is not about convincing birthers, so whether or not they are convinced is irrelevant. A) There is no need to convince them as they have no real power. B) See, again, the law of diminishing returns. There is no need to chase after crumbs. C) It is self-inflicted poison to try to purify life of such things. You can’t spend too much time trying to convince or change the monsters. D) It is enough to provide, as this place does, a hub for facts.

    Take care not to poison yourself too much.

    foreigner:
    if the birthers are so bad, then it’s also your (plural)
    fault. You failed to convince them.
    Yes, I anticipate, you will say they are just too stupid and nothing will
    convince them and you did this and that and … and it didn’t help.

    But it’s also psychology. You must give them the opportunity to change position
    without losing their face

  413. avatar
    aarrgghh July 25, 2012 at 11:27 am #

    birfers lost face when they became birfers.

    abandoning birferism is a face-saving opportunity in itself. birfers are free to take it anytime. or do these live-free-or-die modern-day minutemen need someone to hold their hand?

  414. avatar
    foreigner July 25, 2012 at 11:27 am #

    no Paper,
    as so often it’s both’s fault. Encouraging a fault is also a
    fault. Though a smaller one than the main fault.
    Not avoiding a devoidable fault is also a fault.
    Unterlassene Fehlerverhinderung
    I would still call in the blogs the main fault, so no
    encouragement here. Birthers hate me more than Obots, lol.
    Why is this site not for convincing birthers ? I doubt it.
    Ask the boss.

  415. avatar
    bgansel9 July 25, 2012 at 11:43 am #

    Potter, J: it contributes to his downfall.

    I hope you are correct, but, it’s not in the bag. He may very well win another term.

  416. avatar
    Rickey July 25, 2012 at 11:43 am #

    charo: .It seemed to me that Obama himself was trying to present himself as having more of the common man experience.

    He certainly has had more of the common-man experience than any Republican President since Gerald Ford.

    Ronald Reagan was a movie star (he was signed to a contract by Warner Brothers when he was 26) and Governor of California.

    George H.W. Bush was the son of Wall Street executive and two-term U.S. Senator from Connecticut.

    George W. Bush was the son of a former U.S. President, Vice-President and CIA director.

    And of course Mitt Romney’s father was the CEO of American Motors, Governor of Michigan, and a candidate for the Republican nomination for President in 1968. Willard Mitt Romney was named after family friend a hotel magnate J. Willard Marriott. He attened Cranbrook School in Bloomfield, Michigan, one of the most prestigious private schools in the country.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranbrook_Schools

    So yes, compared to those men, Barack Obama has more of the common-man experience. Do you believe that Mitt Romney has ever, at any time in his life, been worried about paying his bills? Has Mitt Romney ever had to concern himself about whether he had access to health care?

    There is no “typical” American experience.

  417. avatar
    Keith July 25, 2012 at 11:44 am #

    charo: I never unequivocally stated that the birth certificate was a fraud. Ever.

    I know. You just ‘ask questions’.

    I understand you to be an intelligent person, and yet you continue ‘just ask questions’ about trivial stuff that you know to be trivial. Hawai’i says the information on the published documents is accurate; that is the only thing that is important.

    Data entry code numbers are irrelevant. Completely, irrevocably, irrelevant. Even if they did somehow pencil in the codes incorrectly in 1961, the fact remains that the database has been compared to the original birth event record and verified to match in every detail.

    The Hawai’ian standard BC released in 2008 (the so-called Short Form or COLB) is printed from the Database. The Hawai’ian non-standard BC (the so-called Long Form) is an image of the original birth event record, photocopied onto security paper from the bound volume in which it is archived. The information on those two documents match in every particular (where the data items appear on both). You can see this with your own eyes, and Hawai’i has verified it close to a dozen times now.

    The only thing about the birth certificate that has any bearing on the Obama Presidency is the birth location and the birth date. That information is consistent on all versions of the birth certificate, verified by Hawai’i many times, and confirmed by contemporary external sources.

    I notice you used the phrase “bear false witness.” Maybe just a figure of speech, but it leans toward a religious judgment call.

    Yes. I used those words for that specific reason. You have expressed your deep faith in the past, even to the point of accusing people of abusing you for it. I am not abusing you or your faith. I am invoking your conviction in your faith, and I believe I am correct in saying that one of the central tenets of that faith is “Thou shall not bear false witness”.

    Make no mistake: There is only one reason to continue to try to cast doubt on the Obama Birth Certificate when you know that there is no way that it can be impeached and that is to perpetuate fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

    You claim to be ‘just asking questions’ yet you know that the purpose of those questions is to sow doubt, not find answers.

    It is an active smear campaign, not a passive information gathering. To me that is bearing false witness.

    You seem to accept and understand an answer in one post, and then ignore that answer in the next. To me, that is bearing false witness.

    The most detailed comments I have ever made have occurred here, where there are plenty of people to rebut what I have said. That makes it a more honest debate, IMO, at least for myself, because people will take apart my arguments.

    But you haven’t entered into a debate here at all. You are ‘only asking questions’ and resisting acknowledging the answers. That is not a debate. You keep gnawing at a bone refusing to acknowledge when the meat is all gone.

    Consider the following statements:
    “You can’t trust Obama on the economy, he doesn’t even have a valid birth certificate.”
    “You can’t trust Obama on foreign affairs, his birth certificate lists his father as African.”

    In sports, its called “playing the man, not the ball”. In debate it is call “ad hominem attack”. In life its called “bearing false witness”.

  418. avatar
    donna July 25, 2012 at 11:51 am #

    Keith:

    EXCELLENT post!!! grazie mille

  419. avatar
    bgansel9 July 25, 2012 at 11:55 am #

    foreigner: You failed to convince them.

    So we are held accountable for the choices of other people? Are you crazy?

  420. avatar
    bgansel9 July 25, 2012 at 11:59 am #

    Keith: You claim to be ‘just asking questions’ yet you know that the purpose of those questions is to sow doubt, not find answers.

    Absolutely correct.

  421. avatar
    Majority Will July 25, 2012 at 12:07 pm #

    Keith: I know. You just ‘ask questions’.

    I understand you to be an intelligent person, and yet you continue ‘just ask questions’ about trivial stuff that you know to be trivial. Hawai’i says the information on the published documents is accurate; that is the only thing that is important.

    Data entry code numbers are irrelevant. Completely, irrevocably, irrelevant. Even if they did somehow pencil in the codes incorrectly in 1961, the fact remains that the database has been compared to the original birth event record and verified to match in every detail.

    The Hawai’ian standard BC released in 2008 (the so-called Short Form or COLB) is printed from the Database. The Hawai’ian non-standard BC (the so-called Long Form) is an image of the original birth event record, photocopied onto security paper from the bound volume in which it is archived. The information on those two documents match in every particular (where the data items appear on both). You can see this with your own eyes, and Hawai’i has verified it close to a dozen times now.

    The only thing about the birth certificate that has any bearing on the Obama Presidency is the birth location and the birth date. That information is consistent on all versions of the birth certificate, verified by Hawai’i many times, and confirmed by contemporary external sources.

    Yes. I used those words for that specific reason. You have expressed your deep faith in the past, even to the point of accusing people of abusing you for it. I am not abusing you or your faith. I am invoking your conviction in your faith, and I believe I am correct in saying that one of the central tenets of that faith is “Thou shall not bear false witness”.

    Make no mistake: There is only one reason to continue to try to cast doubt on the Obama Birth Certificate when you know that there is no way that it can be impeached and that is to perpetuate fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

    You claim to be ‘just asking questions’ yet you know that the purpose of those questions is to sow doubt, not find answers.

    It is an active smear campaign, not a passive information gathering. To me that is bearing false witness.

    You seem to accept and understand an answer in one post, and then ignore that answer in the next. To me, that is bearing false witness.

    But you haven’t entered into a debate here at all. You are ‘only asking questions’ and resisting acknowledging the answers. That is not a debate. You keep gnawing at a bone refusing to acknowledge when the meat is all gone.

    Consider the following statements:
    “You can’t trust Obama on the economy, he doesn’t even have a valid birth certificate.”
    “You can’t trust Obama on foreign affairs, his birth certificate lists his father as African.”

    In sports, its called “playing the man, not the ball”. In debate it is call “ad hominem attack”. In life its called “bearing false witness”.

    Well said.

  422. avatar
    John Woodman July 25, 2012 at 12:53 pm #

    foreigner: But it’s also psychology. You must give them the opportunity to change position
    without losing their face

    I actually tried this, with Joseph Farah/ Jerome Corsi, and with Mario Apuzzo.

    Farah was one of the first people in the world to get a copy of my book debunking every forgery claim his senior reporter Corsi had publicly presented to WND’s readers. He got an electronic copy the day before it was published, and a printed hard copy a couple of weeks later, at his personal assistant’s request and at my own expense.

    I had made at least one friendly attempt to correspond with Corsi back before that. I did not send him a copy of the book, but I would certainly assume he and Farah must have talked about the copies I sent Farah.

    I privately emailed Mario Apuzzo and suggested to him that it was now quite clear that there was nothing to the two citizen parents claim, and he could essentially become a hero who brought clarity to the issue by publicly acknowledging the actual facts. He chose to stick to his guns. Less than 6 months later his position — and the man himself — have now been thoroughly discredited as a result.

    You assume one is dealing with reasonable people of good faith. That is a very naive assumption.

  423. avatar
    Jamese777 July 25, 2012 at 12:53 pm #

    CarlOrcas: Yes, that is true but it isn’t true that the posse was constituted after Thomas quit.

    The issue under discussion on this thread was the possible relationship between former County Attorney Thomas and Arpaio’s investigation of President Obama’s birth certificate. Other issues that the Cold Case Posse’ may have “investigated” are irrelevant to this thread.
    Since Thomas resigned in 2010 in order to run for Attorney General and the Cold Case Posse’ was charged with the birther issue in September of 2011, Thomas being County Attorney was not a factor in Arpaio’s decision to take on this issue.

  424. avatar
    Horus July 25, 2012 at 12:57 pm #

    MARK ROCK:
    IT’S JUST A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE YOU LIBERALS CRITICISE THE TECHNICAL ELEMENTS OF COMMUNICATION (UPPER-CASE, INCOMPLETE SENTENCE). . .YOU KNOW THE TRUTH OF OBAMA’S ILLEGITIMACY IS REAL, YOU CAN’T DEAL WITH IT ON A FACTUAL BASIS, SO YOU RESORT TO THE ALINSKY RULE BOOK TO ATTACK THE GOOD GUY ANY WAY YOU CAN . . .TYPICAL FASCIST LIBERAL STATE-IST.

    No, you’re the one who can’t deal.
    You can’t deal with the fact that a clear majority of Americans elected a black man as President.

  425. avatar
    John Woodman July 25, 2012 at 1:02 pm #

    I should also add that Corsi knew of my initial videos LONG before my book came out.

    I knew that because he subscribed to my YouTube channel. It was at that point that I wrote to him.

    Farah and Corsi never gave any real coverage, as far as I can recall, to any voice saying anything other than that Obama’s birth certificate was a forgery and he was ineligible, except to accuse them of being on Obama’s payroll, and to “out” the “Obots.” Maybe they did, just a little bit, at the very beginning.

    In the debate I did with Corsi, Zebest and Denninger back in January,

    Corsi’s technique was to try and shift the topic to trivialities — demanding to know why the White House never released an official statement explaining why they chose PDF as the format they released the birth certificate image in — and use that to run out the clock. Zebest’s technique was to engage in childish ridicule (“Only 5 people read John Woodman’s blog, and one of them’s his mother. I’ve seen more coherent ramblings from the Unabomber.” And Denninger’s technique was to attempt to literally shout me down.

    Again, one is not dealing with reasonable people of good faith.

    I am optimistic. I try to always assume that someone is simply a misinformed reasonable person of good faith. But I also try to recognize when my optimism has been shown inapplicable to a particular person.

  426. avatar
    Horus July 25, 2012 at 1:03 pm #

    john:
    Where does the CCP go from here?They should take all their information and submit to Congress as a criminal investigative complaint.I seriously doubt though Congress will touch it.I believe the cover up lies within the Hawaii DOH and with the Hawaii AG Office.If I had to give some direction on what the CCP should do now, I would tell them to obtain State of Hawaii Government Emails.As I understand it, Government emails are public record and the CCP can not be denied these emails.I would obtain the emails of the following officials looking for reference of Obama and his vital records.

    Alvin Onaka – Onaka has produced a couple of verifications about Obama’s birth certificate.I would love to obtain Onaka government emails.

    Jill Nagamine

    Janice Okubo

    Governor Abercrombie and his press secretary emails.

    Lorretta Fuddy

    Arpaio or the CCP will NEVER take an oath in a court and swear to the validity of their BS, they are not stupid enough to perjur themselves.

  427. avatar
    G July 25, 2012 at 1:08 pm #

    LOL! Yes, it is and you are completely right!

    I keep asking myself why I haven’t fully lost patience yet with this particular Concern Troll.

    There were a few earlier posts that were reasonable from this person. I guess I keep foolishly hoping for a return to that. So yes, definitely my own fault for still attempting to pursue reason here…

    Majority Will: That’s some mighty strong irony you got there!

    Time to ignore this bizarre and strangely pathetic concern troll?

    “If they are still coming here spouting Birther sympathies after that, there is NO reasoning with them.”

    Yep.

  428. avatar
    G July 25, 2012 at 1:13 pm #

    I wouldn’t say I’m terrified, just seriously concerned and vigilant. I remain fairly confident that the appropriate authorities are also keeping a close eye on the crazies and can intercept them before they succeed in doing major harm.

    While attacks on the President and government officials is definitely an area of watchful concern for me, my bigger worry is that these folks will snap and harm much more accessible innocent targets that are closer to them – such as members of their own familiy and neighbors…

    bgansel9: While secession has me worried, the idea of solving their problem with an assassination has me terrified.

  429. avatar
    G July 25, 2012 at 1:16 pm #

    Well said, every word! The battered wife and rape victim analogies given by you and others are also very apt.

    Your last paragraph especially bears repeating:

    Paper: As for convincing people, probably most or all of the people who could be convinced were convinced by the two birth certificates the President released. That is the opposite of failure.

    This site is not about convincing birthers, so whether or not they are convinced is irrelevant. A) There is no need to convince them as they have no real power. B) See, again, the law of diminishing returns. There is no need to chase after crumbs. C) It is self-inflicted poison to try to purify life of such things. You can’t spend too much time trying to convince or change the monsters. D) It is enough to provide, as this place does, a hub for facts.
    Take care not to poison yourself too much.

  430. avatar
    G July 25, 2012 at 1:26 pm #

    Originally, that was a bigger part of its purpose.

    As others have repeatedly tried to explain to you, enough time has passed and the actual evidence is overwhelmingly ALL on on side of the issue. All that is left is the law of diminishing returns here.

    So there is no longer any “need” to “convince” those that chose to remain Birthers. They are the hard-core die hards. As Paper pointed out, now it is enough to just provide a hub of facts and commentary rebuttal.

    But no, we no longer hold out much hope of convincing those Birthers that remain. Earlier on, many of us were naive enough to think reason would make a difference, but we’ve learned that is futile with the die-hards that remain. Their motives are simply not based in reason to begin with, so there is nothing that really can be said or done that will satisfy them.

    They will continue to say stupid things and we will continue to note that they have said stupid things. The only one that can stop them from saying and doing stupid things in the first place, is themselves. We are nothing more than a reaction to their own actions.

    Look up cause and effect.

    foreigner: Why is this site not for convincing birthers ? I doubt it.
    Ask the boss.

  431. avatar
    G July 25, 2012 at 1:30 pm #

    I completely agree on all points!

    Keith: Make no mistake: There is only one reason to continue to try to cast doubt on the Obama Birth Certificate when you know that there is no way that it can be impeached and that is to perpetuate fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

    You claim to be ‘just asking questions’ yet you know that the purpose of those questions is to sow doubt, not find answers.

    It is an active smear campaign, not a passive information gathering. To me that is bearing false witness.

    You seem to accept and understand an answer in one post, and then ignore that answer in the next. To me, that is bearing false witness.

    The most detailed comments I have ever made have occurred here, where there are plenty of people to rebut what I have said. That makes it a more honest debate, IMO, at least for myself, because people will take apart my arguments.
    But you haven’t entered into a debate here at all. You are ‘only asking questions’ and resisting acknowledging the answers. That is not a debate. You keep gnawing at a bone refusing to acknowledge when the meat is all gone.
    Consider the following statements:
    “You can’t trust Obama on the economy, he doesn’t even have a valid birth certificate.”
    “You can’t trust Obama on foreign affairs, his birth certificate lists his father as African.”

    In sports, its called “playing the man, not the ball”. In debate it is call “ad hominem attack”. In life its called “bearing false witness”.

  432. avatar
    John Woodman July 25, 2012 at 2:28 pm #

    Both the “Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii” and the “It takes two citizen parents to make a natural born citizen” claims have now been plumbed to their depths.

    If there is any further to plumb them, it’s only because some birther somewhere has used a jack-hammer to try and drill a new cavity.

    However, there are the great masses of people out there who are ill-informed as to the state of what is known about these issues. 20% of Americans still think Obama was born outside of the country. And 25% more say they don’t know.

    Doubtless at least a few more than that are convinced that he is Constitutionally ineligible. So around half of the country remains in ignorance.

    I wonder whether someone should compile a numerical list of Birther Misconceptions, Errors and Lies, with references to where each particular falsehood has been debunked. That way, when some new participant shows up and says, “American common law was that only…” everyone could just yell, “SIXTY-SEVEN!!”

  433. avatar
    John Woodman July 25, 2012 at 2:30 pm #

    You could call it something more friendly, like, “The Obama / Presidential Eligibility FAQ.”

  434. avatar
    G July 25, 2012 at 2:33 pm #

    I like it! 🙂

    John Woodman: I wonder whether someone should compile a numerical list of Birther Misconceptions, Errors and Lies, with references to where each particular falsehood has been debunked. That way, when some new participant shows up and says, “American common law was that only…” everyone could just yell, “SIXTY-SEVEN!!”

  435. avatar
    Potter, J. July 25, 2012 at 4:07 pm #

    John Woodman: I wonder whether someone should compile a numerical list of Birther Misconceptions, Errors and Lies, with references to where each particular falsehood has been debunked.

    Thomas Brown or Thrift said they were working on something like that. I think it was Thomas?

    There have been abortive efforts. Doc(?) had started a Wiki …. somewhere..

    I’m almost helpful today.

  436. avatar
    Thomas Brown July 25, 2012 at 4:30 pm #

    Potter, J.: Thomas Brown or Thrift said they were working on something like that. I think it was Thomas?

    There have been abortive efforts. Doc(?) had started a Wiki …. somewhere..

    I’m almost helpful today.

    Yes, that was me. I jotted down Birther lies and sub-lies (but not sub-sub-lies; ya gotta draw the line somewhere) and came up with 164 of them.

    I was thinking of starting a forum at FogBow to solicit Birther lies I may have missed. I don’t have a blog, and my life prohibits spending much time I don’t need to spend on this stuff. But it would be a worthwhile project.

    Perhaps I could interest Doc or NBC or RC or somebody (maybe on Foggy’s new site?) in hosting the list online, and I would be responsible for gathering and collating new entries and updating the list weekly based on new lies the Fogbowers have come up with, weeding out duplicates and way too trivial lies, and making the list longer. Maybe I could divide it into separate areas, but it would certainly be impressive to be able to say “I have a list of 438 separate lies told by Birthers.”

    I would send the updated list weekly to the host blogger.

    Any takers?

  437. avatar
    Thomas Brown July 25, 2012 at 4:36 pm #

    Someone else would have to reference the debunks for each, but after reading John’s comments above I should promise to only add to the list, not re-number the whole list because it would drive anyone working on the debunk references nuts.

    When Lyman Low catalogued the Hard Times tokens in the late 19th C., he just numbered them 1-183 as he encountered them, with the result that they were quite a jumble; one business that issued tokens might have issued #23, 24 and 137, say. Then Rulau and Fuld re-numbered them in a more sensible fashion in the mud-20th C. (Russ Rulau is still alive), but it means that now tokens have both a Low and HTT number. Yikes.

    We should probably just leave them a sedimentary aggregate.

  438. avatar
    John Woodman July 25, 2012 at 4:52 pm #

    I think you could number them in a fairly coherent order. The most significant or “top-level” claims (I’m thinking there are at least around 80 or so of those) could be numerically numbered, in some rational order.

    Then subclaims could be a, b, c. And Sub-sub-claims could be back to numbers. All of this would give a good organization, and new things could be added into the structure.

    The only problem would be in coming up with a total number of known invalid/ false/ misleading birther claims. But that’s simply a matter of counting the number of enumerated items you have. And I don’t think we’re probably talking about anything more than 500 enumerated items.

    Or so. 🙂

  439. avatar
    donna July 25, 2012 at 4:59 pm #

    Thomas Brown:

    today in another forum, i was once again reminded of the list created by Beckwith in 2007 (?) – how much has changed in 5 years? (none of the following is mine)

    Here is the original, most accurate and most comprehensive list of Obama’s missing, sealed and bogus documents:

    Obama has lived for 50 years without leaving any footprints — none! There is no Obama documentation — no bona fides — no paper trail — nothing.

    Obama/Dunham marriage license — Not released (if one exists)
    Original, vault copy birth certificate — Not released (lawyers’ fees greater than $4,000,000 — a REAL birth certificate is $15)
    Certification of Live Birth (short form) — Released — Counterfeit
    Certificate of Live Birth (long form) — Released — Counterfeit
    Amended Certification of Live Birth — Released — Counterfeit
    INS air travel records August 1-7, 1961 — Missing
    Obama/Dunham divorce — Released but incomplete (by independent investigators)
    Obama Sr. INS file — Released — both U. Hawaii and Harvard wanted him expelled for “womanizing”
    Barry Dunham/Obama Kindergarten records — Records lost (this is a big one — read two frames)
    Soetoro/Dunham marriage license — Not released
    Anna Soetoro/Dunham passport records — Released, but key years are missing
    Barry Dunham/Obama/Soetoro passport records — Missing
    Soetoro adoption records — Not released
    Fransiskus Assisi School School application — Released (by independent investigators)
    Besuki School record — Released (by independent investigators)
    Punahou School application — Missing
    Punahou School records — Not released
    Noelani 3rd Grade records — Not released
    Soetoro/Dunham divorce — Released (by independent investigators)
    Selective Service Registration — Released (by independent investigators) — Under suspicion
    Social Security Numbers — Released (by independent investigators) — Under suspicion
    Occidental College records — Not released
    Financial Aid Records — Not released
    Passport Records — Not released and records scrubbed clean by Obama’s terrorism and intelligence adviser
    Columbia College records — Not released
    Columbia thesis — “Soviet Nuclear Disarmament” — Not released
    Harvard College records — Not released
    Harvard Law Review articles — None
    Illinois Bar Records — Not released
    Baptism certificate — None (never baptized)
    Medical records — Not released — nor is the source of this nasty scar
    Illinois State Senate records — None
    Illinois State Senate schedule — Lost — really!
    Law practice client list — Not released
    University of Chicago scholarly articles — None
    Rashid Khalidi video — Hidden by the L.A. Times
    White House Visitors list — Incomplete to the point of worthless
    The Blagojevich Interview — judge denies access to the FBI report
    Osama bin Laden photos — sealed by Obama
    Fast & Furious documents — Executive Privilege invoked

    …And there’s less on the web every day. In time, the entire Obama body of knowledge will consist of 3 documents — “Dreams From My Father” — “The Audacity of Hope” — and the latest — “Change We Can Believe In” — all written by Barack Hussein Obama or his “ghost-writers.”

    And two old newspaper clippings that aren’t even newspaper clippings, but microfiche/film copies that are also bogus. No one has ever seen the birth announcements in the original newspaper. No one has ever documented the source or veracity of these announcements, and the Kenyan, Stanley Ann and little Barry never lived at that address — EVER! — especially in August 1961.

    Finally, after three years of stonewalling, Obama released what he claimed was his long-form “birth certificate.” The document was almost immediately demonstrated to have been electronically/digitally manipulated.

  440. avatar
    bgansel9 July 25, 2012 at 5:13 pm #

    Jamese777: The issue under discussion on this thread was the possible relationship between former County Attorney Thomas and Arpaio’s investigation of President Obama’s birth certificate. Other issues that the Cold Case Posse’ may have “investigated” are irrelevant to this thread.

    I am stating that if Arpaio had involved himself earlier in the birther investigation, he would have had someone who could have prosecuted birther causes. I’m not saying he did, I’m saying he had someone more than willing to do legal dirty work for him previous to disbarment.

  441. avatar
    Jim July 25, 2012 at 5:35 pm #

    John Woodman:

    Doubtless at least a few more than that are convinced that he is Constitutionally ineligible. So around half of the country remains in ignorance.

    And there ALWAYS will be an ignorance…some just don’t care. Those of us who have followed this for a while, realize that a majority of the people don’t follow this, has no impact on their vote, and really don’t know why there’s even a big worry about it. Those people would only pay attention if it were true and the press and congress was making a big deal about it. The only reason I’m still following it is for entertainment purposes. It has been well established for years.

    That being said, if you want more people to pay attention to it, you have to entertain them. Instead of intellectually trying to reach them, you need to reach them with comedy and entertainment…like my “You Might be a Birther” bit. Can you imagine a single you-tube video tearing apart the whole birther movement using comedy? If it went viral, you could reach more of the people who aren’t sure than you could ever reach with theses and intellectual papers.

  442. avatar
    Paper July 25, 2012 at 5:41 pm #

    Humor is always good. Jon Stewart for one has ripped the birthers plenty.

    Jim:
    That being said, if you want more people to pay attention to it, you have to entertain them.Instead of intellectually trying to reach them, you need to reach them with comedy and entertainment…like my “You Might be a Birther” bit.Can you imagine a single you-tube video tearing apart the whole birther movement using comedy?If it went viral, you could reach more of the people who aren’t sure than you could ever reach with theses and intellectual papers.

  443. avatar
    Paper July 25, 2012 at 6:03 pm #

    So then why did *you* not stop the mistakes that damaged the Fukushima reactors in Japan, same for Chernobyl and Three Mile Island? Why have you not convinced every single person on the planet that the earth is not flat? Why have you not not convinced any of these killers to stop shooting up the public? What about aliens–are you on that one?

    foreigner: Not avoiding a devoidable fault is also a fault.
    Unterlassene Fehlerverhinderung

  444. avatar
    misha July 25, 2012 at 6:08 pm #

    foreigner: Fehlerverhinderung

    Fehlerverhinderung = Fahrvergnügen

  445. avatar
    Paper July 25, 2012 at 6:21 pm #

    Um, I do not see encouragement of birthers as a big thing around here.

    As for both being at fault…again, the victim is not at fault. The battered wife is not to blame for her abuser. The President is not to blame for liars and scoundrels who insist on vile smears and innuendo. Commenters here are not to blame for other people’s foolish beliefs about where the President was born.

    foreigner: no Paper,
    as so often it’s both’s fault. Encouraging a fault is also a
    fault.

  446. avatar
    Paper July 25, 2012 at 6:30 pm #

    As for asking the boss, voila, here you go. Only one wish left, Master.

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/visitor-guide/

    “The purpose of this blog as our byline, fishing for the gold coin in a bucket of mud, says, is examining a vast array of claims, rumors and even lawsuits about Barack Obama and his eligibility to be president, to see if anything there has credible backing.”

    Notice how it doesn’t talk about convincing birthers?

    foreigner:
    Why is this site not for convincing birthers ? I doubt it.
    Ask the boss.

  447. avatar
    Arthur July 25, 2012 at 6:41 pm #

    Majority Will: But you haven’t entered into a debate here at all. You are ‘only asking questions’ and resisting acknowledging the answers. That is not a debate. You keep gnawing at a bone refusing to acknowledge when the meat is all gone.

    That’s it exactly, Keith; though I would add playing the victim when the vacuity of her questioning was pointed out.

  448. avatar
    Stanislaw July 25, 2012 at 6:43 pm #

    donna:
    Thomas Brown:

    today in another forum, i was once again reminded of the list created by Beckwith in 2007 (?) – how much has changed in 5 years? (none of the following is mine)

    Here is the original, most accurate and most comprehensive list of Obama’s missing, sealed and bogus documents:

    Obama has lived for 50 years without leaving any footprints — none! There is no Obama documentation — no bona fides — no paper trail — nothing.

    Ah, the stupid is strong with those people.

  449. avatar
    AlCum July 25, 2012 at 8:25 pm #

    foreigner:
    no Paper,
    as so often it’s both’s fault. Encouraging a fault is also a
    fault. Though a smaller one than the main fault.
    Not avoiding a devoidable fault is also a fault.
    Unterlassene Fehlerverhinderung
    I would still call in the blogs the main fault, so no
    encouragement here. Birthers hate me more than Obots, lol.
    Why is this site not for convincing birthers ? I doubt it.
    Ask the boss.

    No, it is not both’s fault. Your effort to draw a false equivalency is nonsense. There is no need to convince birthers. They don’t want to be convinced as they already have embraced lies. There is only ridicule, really, and well deserved.

    There is no need for unanimous consent on this.

  450. avatar
    Jamese777 July 25, 2012 at 8:50 pm #

    bgansel9: I am stating that if Arpaio had involved himself earlier in the birther investigation, he would have had someone who could have prosecuted birther causes. I’m not saying he did, I’m saying he had someone more than willing to do legal dirty work for him previous to disbarment.

    Yes, I understand your point. My post was in response to someone else.I was just looking at the timeframes of what actually happened, not what hypothetically could have happened.
    As I already said, I agree with the Arizona Republic that Arpaio only got interested in the birther issue during the election year and after he was charged with civil rights violations. It fits a pattern of his for “wagging the dog” and “false flag” operations.
    His three favorite prosecutors being unavailable due to ethical violations made it even more likely that he would find another issue to distract from the corruption.

  451. avatar
    Keith July 25, 2012 at 9:05 pm #

    John Woodman: I think you could number them in a fairly coherent order.

    You could build a hierarchy like these guys did. Then you could add new stuff in the right category.

  452. avatar
    Thomas Brown July 25, 2012 at 11:07 pm #

    Thanks, Donna. You have contributed quite a few lies to the list. Everything there is either 1) a complete lie, 2) an unprovable assertion, 3) a criticism for not releasing private records that no other President would or should be asked to make public, or 4) totally laughable whackadoodle delusions (an unexplained scar? Really?)

    What has happened to you people? What’s wrong with “He’s a good fellow, a loyal American and a devoted father; I just disagree with his political beliefs, so I’m voting for the other guy”? When did it devolve into “He’s a communist Manchurian-candidate evil scheming reptilian shape-shifting anti-Christ bent on murdering millions of Americans and enslaving the rest, while snorting cocaine and having gay sex in the Oval Office?”

    Seriously: When did you leave the last vestiges of your human decency bound, gagged and beaten to a pulp, whimpering in the trunk of a rusty El Dorado, the only other sound coming from a junkman’s AM radio, perpetually tuned to Rush Limbaugh?

  453. avatar
    Thomas Brown July 25, 2012 at 11:21 pm #

    Donna, I apologize for thinking you were one of them. Again. I thought the remarks below the list were yours.

    I plead fatigue. Too many 12-hour days. But I stand by my remarks about Birthers and other ODS sufferers. Why is toxic, borderline-lunatic vilification necessary when simple disagreement is sufficient? When did the “loyal opposition” become a lynch mob?

  454. avatar
    misha July 25, 2012 at 11:36 pm #

    Thomas Brown: When did the “loyal opposition” become a lynch mob?

    To you I’m an atheist; to God, I’m the Loyal Opposition. – Woody Allen

    1- Spiro Agnew
    2 – Fairness Doctrine suspension

    One of the worst is Michael Savage, whose real name is Michael Weiner.

    Thomas Brown: What has happened to you people?

    When I look at Orly Taitz and Michael Weiner Savage, I ask “What has happened to us?”

  455. avatar
    donna July 25, 2012 at 11:42 pm #

    Thomas Brown:

    no apology necessary

    lol

    i read your apology before your previous post and i’m still giggling – i guess you missed the “(none of the following is mine)” thingy

  456. avatar
    Reality Check July 26, 2012 at 12:03 am #

    I had a nice long comment on this but the damn verification thing wiped it for me so I will be brief. ladyforest is starting to smell a rat that the Daily Pen/Corsi/Zullo team will not produce the 1961 VSIM with the codes they claim were used then. Doc C gets mentioned in the comments.

    http://myveryownpointofview.wordpress.com/2012/07/19/does-it-exist-the-1961-vital-stat-instruction-manual/#comment-6405

  457. avatar
    Arthur July 26, 2012 at 4:29 am #

    Reality Check: Doc C gets mentioned in the comments.

    Yeah, and charo is little miss sunshine there. She’s a birther, plain and simple, and ladyforest (what a moniker!) is her intellectual mentor.

  458. avatar
    Majority Will July 26, 2012 at 7:58 am #

    Arthur: Yeah, and charo is little miss sunshine there. She’s a birther, plain and simple, and ladyforest (what a moniker!) is her intellectual mentor.

    “I think I have had it over at OCT. I’ll just check here for information. I hope you don’t stress yourself out too much over this.”

    charo said this on July 20, 2012 at 9:03 pm | Reply

    Funny.

  459. avatar
    Thomas Brown July 26, 2012 at 8:11 am #

    donna:
    Thomas Brown:

    no apology necessary

    lol

    i read your apology before your previous post and i’m still giggling – i guess you missed the “(none of the following is mine)” thingy

    Ummm… yeah. I’m not half the man I used to be, and since I was but a half-wit then, I guess I’ll have to trade my motorcycle for a quarter horse.

  460. avatar
    Stanislaw July 26, 2012 at 8:12 am #

    Arthur: Yeah, and charo is little miss sunshine there. She’s a birther, plain and simple, and ladyforest (what a moniker!) is her intellectual mentor.

    My favorite screenname of the commenters on that site? “Thinkwell.” It’s a joke that writes itself.

  461. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 26, 2012 at 8:29 am #

    In many ways, charo is a classic concern troll. She pushes the envelope, but in the end tries to make herself the center of attention, whether she’s coming or going, whether she’s been offended or not and what sacrifices she makes in her personal life to comment on the blog. She pushes far enough to attract insults and then gets all hurt to get people to apologize.

    In the end, she adds little to the topical discussion except increasing the number of comments, both hers and people responding to her manipulations (both sympathetic and anti-sympathetic). Charo is either a whiner, or an intentional troll just trying to get a rise out of people. It doesn’t matter which it is; the result is the same.

    Majority Will: “I think I have had it over at OCT. I’ll just check here for information. I hope you don’t stress yourself out too much over this.”

    charo said this on July 20, 2012 at 9:03 pm | Reply

  462. avatar
    Reality Check July 26, 2012 at 8:49 am #

    I have seen Thinkwell around some blogs but not lately. I believe he was one I butted heads with at Phil Cave’s blog back during the Lakin trial days. He was pushing the theory that a mystery Thirteenth Amendment called the Titles of Nobility Amendment (TONA) was actually ratified and it bars attorneys from holding any position in government because of the “ESQ” after their name.

  463. avatar
    Northland10 July 26, 2012 at 8:53 am #

    Being half the man I used to be sounds better than my current 1.25 the man I used to be. The birthers are keeping me from the gym.

    Thomas Brown: Ummm… yeah.I’m not half the man I used to be, and since I was but a half-wit then, I guess I’ll have to trade my motorcycle for a quarter horse.

  464. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 26, 2012 at 9:02 am #

    That article was funny. Basically it said that she wasn’t going to look at any of the arguments, but draw her own conclusions opposing a straw man with shoddy evidence.

    Reality Check: I had a nice long comment on this but the damn verification thing wiped it for me so I will be brief. ladyforest is starting to smell a rat that the Daily Pen/Corsi/Zullo team will not produce the 1961 VSIM with the codes they claim were used then. Doc C gets mentioned in the comments.

  465. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 26, 2012 at 9:03 am #

    Verification thing?

    Reality Check: I had a nice long comment on this but the damn verification thing wiped it for me so

  466. avatar
    Reality Check July 26, 2012 at 9:08 am #

    I meant the OpenID authentication. If I have the box checked and I am not signed into WordPress at the time when I hit submit it goes to a page with this message:

    WordPress.com
    You need to sign in

    You need to sign in to wordpress.com to complete this process.

    You should use a bookmark or type in the address to do this. This page does not contain any links, to protect you from phishing.

    I don’t see anywhere to get off that page other than back to OCT. When I hit the button my comment is gone.

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    Verification thing?

  467. avatar
    Potter, J. July 26, 2012 at 9:17 am #

    Reality Check: I don’t see anywhere to get off that page other than back to OCT. When I hit the button my comment is gone.

    I always copy/paste before submitting. If rambling at length, I compose in Notepad. The Webs are a fickle love.

  468. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy July 26, 2012 at 9:20 am #

    As I see it, the opposition is doubling their efforts to win in 2012 using the same argument (Obama is “other”) that they lost on in 2008. The very intensity of birtherism and alternative father/communist childhood friends themes tells me that they don’t believe they can win a straightforward “our candidate is better” contest.

    Thomas Brown: When did the “loyal opposition” become a lynch mob?

  469. avatar
    Reality Check July 26, 2012 at 9:24 am #

    Ladyforest is in denial. She would rather believe The Daily Pen, Corsi, and Zullo who are known liars rather than believe that Doc C got the information through a FOIA that he has completely documented. The only thing she found is that in the 1962 Vital Statistics document in the technical index a category for “race not given” is mentioned because New Jersey coded all the births that way.

    New Jersey.-The State of New Jersey omitted the item
    on “color or race” from its certificate of live birth in 1962.
    Therefore it was necessary to make certain changes in
    processing and publishing the statistics.
    In all tables giving data for individual States or their
    geographic subdivisions, the “color or race” classification
    is not shown for New Jersey..

    In tables by place of residence all events for residents
    of States other than New Jersey have been classified by color
    or race. In the relatively infrequent cases where the event
    occurred in New Jersey to a resident of another State it
    was arbitrarily classified as “white.” This was done to
    eliminate the “not stated” category in the many tables by
    place of residence.

    In tables by place of occurrence the figures for “white”
    and “nonwhite” do not add to the total for some areas. This
    results from a decision to classify all residents of New
    Jersey as “color or race not stated,” including cases in
    which the birth occurred in another State.
    All statistics for the United States as a whole by color
    or race are affected by the lack of this information for
    New Jersey residents. As stated previously, all events to
    residents of New Jersey were classified as “color or race not stated.” In the annual volume tables this “not stated” category is not shown in the interest of space conservation;
    however, the frequencies of events classified as
    “color or race not stated” can be obtained in each table
    by subtracting from the totals for all races the sum of
    the events classified by color or race. For example, in
    table 1-1 in Section 1 the total number of live births for
    the United States is 4,167,362, of which 4,035,648 are
    classified by color-3,394,068 as white and 641,580 as
    nonwhite. The difference between the sum of the events
    classified by color and the total events-13li714-represents
    the live births to residents of New Jersey, events
    which were classified as “color or race not stated.”
    The absence of color or race information for New Jersey
    live births affects all birth rates classified by color or race
    for the total United States. This results from the fact that it
    was not possible to obtain denominators by color to correspond
    to the natality data with New Jersey excluded because
    intercensal population estimates by age, color, and sex are
    not available for individual States. Therefore, in order to
    prepare birth rates by color for the United States it was
    necessary to make estimates of the United States population
    by age, color, and sex excluding New Jersey. The procedure
    used to make these estimates rests on the assumption that
    the ratio of the population of the Unitedstates excluding New
    Jersey in 1962 classified by age, color, and sex to the total
    population of the United States in 1962 classified by age,
    color, and sex can be represented by a ratio based on corresponding
    data from the 1960 Census of Population.

    This is mentioned because it prevents the actual category totals for the US from adding up to the total births. She is pretty sure this confirms that the codes for Hawaii provided by the Daily Pen are correct. However, the 1961 document she links doesn’t have any mention of “not stated” in the race and color section of the technical index. She is also on a mad search for the 1961 Vital Statistics Instruction Manual Part II – Section C Geographic Codes that Doc C posted months ago here.

  470. avatar
    Reality Check July 26, 2012 at 9:31 am #

    I do too if I can remember to do that. I may start with only a sentence or two and before I know it I have three paragraphs. The OpenID box defaults to checked so it will bite you if you don’t watch.

    Potter, J.: I always copy/paste before submitting. If rambling at length, I compose in Notepad. The Webs are a fickle love.

  471. avatar
    Scientist July 26, 2012 at 9:40 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: As I see it, the opposition is doubling their efforts to win in 2012 using the same argument (Obama is “other”) that they lost on in 2008. The very intensity of birtherism and alternative father/communist childhood friends themes tells me that they don’t believe they can win a straightforward “our candidate is better” contest.

    As I see it, that creates a dilemma for the “anti-Obama, non-birthers” like John Woodman and others. Because, if Obama loses, make no mistake, the birthers will do a victory dance, whether or not they played any role in the election whatsoever. So, while your vote will be based on perfectly respectable policy reasons, if you vote for Romney (whom I suspect you don’t love anyway) you will be giving joy and enhanced credibility to a bunch of despicable liars.

  472. avatar
    AlCum July 26, 2012 at 2:00 pm #

    Scientist: As I see it, that creates a dilemma for the “anti-Obama, non-birthers” like John Woodman and others.Because, if Obama loses, make no mistake, the birthers will do a victorydance, whether or not they played any role in the election whatsoever.So, while your vote will be based on perfectly respectable policy reasons, if you vote for Romney (whom I suspectyou don’t love anyway) you will be giving joy and enhanced credibility to a bunch of despicable liars.

    Not to mention you would be returning power to the very arsonists whose policies set the economy on fire in the first place. Getting rid of the firefighters because the fire isn’t yet out is silly.

  473. avatar
    gorefan July 26, 2012 at 2:07 pm #

    Reality Check: Ladyforest is in denial.

    She is the one who initiated the Sunahara quest and she is the one who began the microfilms of the birth announcements in all the libraries of the world have been switched with fake birth announcements meme.

  474. avatar
    Reality Check July 26, 2012 at 2:25 pm #

    I may have been wrong about ladyforest, at least this time: She obtained a copy of the CODING AND PUNCHING GEOGRAPHIC AND PERSONAL PARTICULARS FOR BIRTHS OCCURRING IN 1961 It is not good news ………………………………………………………….. for Corsi and Zullo.

    Here is the article. Did Corsi Lie To Zullo? A REAL 1961 Vital Statistics Instruction Manual Congratulations to ladyforest.

  475. avatar
    nbc July 26, 2012 at 2:40 pm #

    I have addressed a few more ‘mysteries’ identified by Mara Zebest, such as the difference in scaling for the background and bitmaps, the existence of multiple, similar characters and the differences in resolution between the background and mono-chrome bitmaps.
    I show that all can be trivially explained by Acrobat and Quartz

    Mara Zebest More mysteries solved

    Enjoy

  476. avatar
    Potter, J. July 26, 2012 at 2:47 pm #

    Reality Check: Here is the article. Did Corsi Lie To Zullo? A REAL 1961 Vital Statistics Instruction Manual Congratulations to ladyforest.

    I certainly appreciate the heretofore missing document, but consider this excerpt:

    It does NOT support the claim that the number “9″ indicated “not stated”. That being said, recall that this is the FEDERAL manual. I do not know if HI had their own separate coding, for their own state specific data collecting. I will now attempt to hunt down the answer to that question. The process of “punching” the coded information seems to have been a tedious and lengthy procedure, and I do not know if HI would have done this for state level stats using DIFFERENT codes than the Federal codes outlined in this manual.

    Oy vey. She has no clue how vital records and statistics works! Not that I am an expert, but I have internet access and can read. Short answer is “Yes, they did, and they do. All 50 states do.” A handful of *cities* do so for their own purposes. It is a vital government function. Census procedures for the Israelites were included in the OT f’God’s sake!

    Can we convince all birthers to read:
    The Methods and Materials of Demography, Vol. 1 2nd Ed (1973)
    Henry S. Shryock, Jacob S. Siegel, Elizabeth A. Larmon, United States. Bureau of the Census

    ?

    Probably not, even tho it is free at Googlebooks, and from the time period in question.

    Still you’d think they would bother to explore some state DOH websites if tehy are going to hold forth on vital records, etc.!

    This reminds me of the time an ‘Intenter’, after months of expounding on the Constitution, “discovered” the Articles of Confederation.

    Research, conclude, proselytize. Research always comes first.
    ______________________

    Check her conclusion, about posting this to The Daily Pen:

    That was yesterday evening, and as of 12:45 PM today, 7/26, they have not answered. I am sure that they will though.

    Bless her swee’ lil’ pea-pickin’ heart.

  477. avatar
    nbc July 26, 2012 at 2:48 pm #

    Note that the document instructs that if the race of a parent is black to use the term negro if the parent was born in the US and ‘other non-white’ if born elsewhere.

  478. avatar
    justlw July 26, 2012 at 3:07 pm #

    Potter, J.: I certainly appreciate the heretofore missing document,

    She, a card-carrying birfer, has, as Doc has, credibly and thoroughly debunked the CCP’s latest claim that was so freaking hot they just had to call a press conference that very moment. That’s huge.

    I wonder how Zullo feels about Corsi and his 16 hour indoctrination session these days?

    I think she also approaches the second question very reasonably, especially for a birther. She does not state definitively that the pencil codes must match the Federal ones, but she implies it would be surprising if they did not. That’s quite a concession from a birther: just because something is remotely possible does not mean it’s plausible!

  479. avatar
    John Woodman July 26, 2012 at 3:11 pm #

    Reality Check:
    I may have been wrong about ladyforest, at least this time: She obtained a copy of the CODING AND PUNCHING GEOGRAPHIC AND PERSONAL PARTICULARS FOR BIRTHS OCCURRING IN 1961 It is not good news ………………………………………………………….. for Corsi and Zullo.

    Here is the article. Did Corsi Lie To Zullo? A REAL 1961 Vital Statistics Instruction Manual Congratulations to ladyforest.

    I think the horse hair just broke.

  480. avatar
    G July 26, 2012 at 3:16 pm #

    Maybe, just maybe it will start to dawn on some of these Birthers that they’ve been scammed by WND and its affiliation mouth-pieces all along…

    justlw: She, a card-carrying birfer, has, as Doc has, credibly and thoroughly debunked the CCP’s latest claim that was so freaking hot they just had to call a press conference that very moment. That’s huge.

    I wonder how Zullo feels about Corsi and his 16 hour indoctrination session these days?

    I think she also approaches the second question very reasonably, especially for a birther. She does not state definitively that the pencil codes must match the Federal ones, but she implies it would be surprising if they did not.That’s quite a concession from a birther: just because something is remotely possible does not mean it’s plausible!

  481. avatar
    G July 26, 2012 at 3:17 pm #

    BINGO!

    Dr. Conspiracy: The very intensity of birtherism and alternative father/communist childhood friends themes tells me that they don’t believe they can win a straightforward “our candidate is better” contest.

  482. avatar
    nbc July 26, 2012 at 3:29 pm #

    foreigner: Why is this site not for convincing birthers ?

    Because most birthers can not be convinced as they refuse to accept data that contradicts their fears and ignorance.

  483. avatar
    Potter, J. July 26, 2012 at 3:37 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: they don’t believe they can win a straightforward “our candidate is better” contest.

    You better believe it, check this out, straight out of the WND mouthpiece:

    A VOICE OF SANITY
    Romney’s worst nightmare: Palin and Paul
    Exclusive: Robert Ringer says Mitt’s ‘Tepid Team’ is on track to lose election

    http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/romneys-worst-nightmare-palin-and-paul/

    It’s a crack up! The Far Right Reds are out in the Oort Cloud.

    They thought the lesson of the McCain failure would have resulted in a “Tea Party America”? As big a fantasy as those thinking reaction to Bush would give birth to the People’s Collectivizes of America

    LOL! Look to the right, wingers! See that void over there? It’s there because you’re IT! You are the outer limit! The entire country is to the left of your deranged butts.

  484. avatar
    bovril July 26, 2012 at 3:40 pm #

    This is yet another demonstration, the same as the one where Birfers “discovered” the news print birth announcement, that the Birfers own “researchers” are the Birfers worst enemy…..

    Of course we wait with bated breath for Butterdezillion to announce that the ’61 document by it’s very nature doesn’t ACTUALLY contradict WND but “implies” and “supports” it

    😎

  485. avatar
    justlw July 26, 2012 at 3:51 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: they don’t believe they can win a straightforward “our candidate is better” contest.

    Which also may explain why the Romney campaign has stooped to not just quote-mining, but David Letterman style editing to put words in Obama’s mouth.

  486. avatar
    G July 26, 2012 at 3:59 pm #

    ROTFL! 😉

    bovril: Of course we wait with bated breath for Butterdezillion to announce that the ’61 document by it’s very nature doesn’t ACTUALLY contradict WND but “implies” and “supports” it

  487. avatar
    G July 26, 2012 at 4:02 pm #

    Agreed. Especially, as the Daily Show and The Colbert Report have repeatedly shown over the last two days, that Romney himself has repeatedly said pretty much the same thing on the campaign trail that he’s now trying to make into a “centerpiece” argument against Obama.

    Now THAT is both desperation and DOOMED to blow back up in his own face…

    The actual face to face debates should be particularly interesting, as Romney won’t be able to pull these shams in thosse forums…and it will be easy for his own positions and contradictory statements to be challenged and outed, for the entire world to see…

    justlw: Which also may explain why the Romney campaign has stooped to not just quote-mining, but David Letterman style editing to put words in Obama’s mouth.

  488. avatar
    G July 26, 2012 at 4:14 pm #

    Well, there is ONE valid argument from that article that I am curious to see play out this election cycle –

    What happens to the Ron Paul supporters and how does this impact the Libertarian ticket’s support, especially with a likeable Gary Johnson as their candidate.

    Potter, J.: A VOICE OF SANITY
    Romney’s worst nightmare: Palin and Paul
    Exclusive: Robert Ringer says Mitt’s ‘Tepid Team’ is on track to lose election
    http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/romneys-worst-nightmare-palin-and-paul/
    It’s a crack up! The Far Right Reds are out in the Oort Cloud.

  489. avatar
    Stanislaw July 26, 2012 at 7:06 pm #

    G:
    Well, there is ONE valid argument from that article that I am curious to see play out this election cycle –

    What happens to the Ron Paul supporters and how does this impact the Libertarian ticket’s support, especially with a likeable Gary Johnson as their candidate.

    I tried to read this article with a straight face but lost it as soon as I realized the writer of this article really thinks Sarah Palin would be anything but harmful to Romney. Yeah, I know that McCain was never going to win in ’08 (hell, no Republican was going to win in ’08) but having Palin as his running mate sure didn’t help matters. But why would I expect logical arguments from a writer who claims that the President is a “dedicated Marxist?”

  490. avatar
    Keith July 26, 2012 at 9:36 pm #

    Northland10: Being half the man I used to be sounds better than my current 1.25 the man I used to be. The birthers are keeping me from the gym.

    Thomas Brown: Ummm… yeah.I’m not half the man I used to be, and since I was but a half-wit then, I guess I’ll have to trade my motorcycle for a quarter horse.

    Machines were mice and men were lions once upon a time.
    But now that it’s the opposite it’s twice upon a time.

    Louis Thomas Hardin (“Moondog”)