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The Show Me State says, “show me!”

[There is some question as to whether this bill was actually passed by the Missouri House on May 4. The official Missouri legislative web site says no. There are at least two bills of this nature pending, and we’ll just have to wait until something definitive shows up.]

Missouri House passes “birther” bill

Just when you thought the birthers had gone the way of bell-bottom jeans and leisure suits, Missouri steps in front of the speeding train of national opinion and passes a bill requiring candidates to prove their citizenship.

ColorLines reports that the Missouri House just passed HB 121, whose purpose is said by one supporter: to keep illegal immigrants from taking over the White House. One can only wonder if he is referring to what some birther blogs call the “Resident of the United States.”

The relevant section reads:

115.399. 1. … the state committee of each established political party shall certify in writing to the secretary of state the names of its nominees for president and vice president of the United States. Such certification shall include proof of identity and proof of United States citizenship for each nominee.

[Emphasis in original indicates addition to existing law.]

This provision was inserted by committee in an otherwise routine change to election law. I don’t really see a problem with that. But really, these birther bills seem so retro.

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129 Responses to The Show Me State says, “show me!”

  1. Jules May 7, 2011 at 1:50 pm  (Quote) #

    A valid US passport would satisfy the requirements of this bill, as it is proof of both identity and US citizenship.

  2. Fred May 7, 2011 at 2:40 pm  (Quote) #

    Jules:
    A valid US passport would satisfy the requirements of this bill, as it is proof of both identity and US citizenship.

    Which the people behind this would know nothing about since they probably never owned a passport.

  3. Bovril May 7, 2011 at 2:50 pm  (Quote) #

    But but but eet iz Konstitutional Krisis…Usurper…Mooslem….Ebil Lieberal……LET ME FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENISH……

  4. Slartibartfast May 7, 2011 at 3:10 pm  (Quote) #

    Given what Republican legislatures are doing in states like Wisconsin, Ohio, and Michigan, I’m perfectly happy with them wasting their time like this…

  5. AnotherBird May 7, 2011 at 3:46 pm  (Quote) #

    “to keep illegal immigrants from taking over the White House.”

    Why would illegal immigrant want to blow their cover by taking over the White House? Anyways, I think the Secret Service has that covered.

  6. US Citizen May 7, 2011 at 3:56 pm  (Quote) #

    This is just a voter pacifying action designed to say “See? We did what you asked for!”
    It has no teeth.
    It could grow some and challenge what constitutes identification or citizenship means later, but otherwise does next to nothing.

    This is what happens when a state ranks low in mental ability.
    They spend their time coddling the idiot-vote.

    Even though it was caused initially by Obama Derangement Syndrome, he is least affected by its passage.
    What this law affects the most is re-election of Missouri politicians and lowering blood pressure for some of the voters.

  7. Jules May 7, 2011 at 6:46 pm  (Quote) #

    Fred: Which the people behind this would know nothing about since they probably never owned a passport.

    If I may be pedantic, I can say with some certainty that you do not own a United States passport.

    In fact, I do not own a single passport even though I have in my possession two national passports that have my name on them. One is the property of the federal government of the United States and the other is the property of Her Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom.

  8. Douglas May 7, 2011 at 9:05 pm  (Quote) #

    Jules: A valid US passport would satisfy the requirements of this bill, as it is proof of both identity and US citizenship.

    I understand that Obama was issued his first passport upon election to the United States Senate in 2004. The passport has diplomatic status and is not subject to the rigors of application to which us mortals are subject (e.g., a long form birth certificate issued by a hospital).

    Perhaps Dr. Conspiracy could verify this.

  9. Jules May 7, 2011 at 9:32 pm  (Quote) #

    Douglas: I understand that Obama was issued his first passport upon election to the United States Senate in 2004.

    This would be most unlikely. As he travelled and resided in Indonesia as a child and engaged in further international travel in later years, it is safe to assume that he held an ordinary passport well before 2004.

    Douglas: The passport has diplomatic status and is not subject to the rigors of application to which us mortals are subject (e.g., a long form birth certificate issued by a hospital).

    My understanding is that diplomatic and official passport applications are subject to at least as much scrutiny as applications for ordinary passports. In any event, mere mortals can usually use abstract certificates to obtain US passports (provided that those abstracts meet State Department standards, which most do nowadays).

    Texas and California abstract copies are, from my understanding, seen with great suspicion because of cases of fraudulent birth registration specific to certain midwives in those states. The certificates of those falling under additional State Department investigation have been the subject of press reports and litigation. Hawaii short forms have been acceptable to the State Department ever since they became the standard document for those ordering copies of their Hawaii birth certificates.

  10. NBC May 7, 2011 at 9:32 pm  (Quote) #

    I understand that Obama was issued his first passport upon election to the United States Senate in 2004.

    According to his book, he returned, unaccompanied from Indonesia to Hawaii on a US passport.

    My grandparents laughed and pointed at me and waved some more until the customs official finally tapped me on the shoulder and asked me if I was an American. I nodded and handed him my passport.
    Barack H. Obama, Dreams From My Father, Paperback 2004, page 52

  11. Tarrant May 7, 2011 at 9:55 pm  (Quote) #

    Also note, Douglas that birth certificates are NOT ISSUED BY hOSPITALS. They are issued by states. The “certificate” given to parents as they leave with a baby is a souvenir, a decorative item. Birth certificates, long or short (some states do not offer the former) that are valid for purposes of identity are provided by states.

  12. NBC May 7, 2011 at 10:02 pm  (Quote) #

    Also in 1968, Ann Dunham renewed her passport and removed Obama, indicating that she had obtained his own passport. This makes sense since he would likely be traveling on his own to visit his grand parents. In mid 1971 Obama returned to live with his grand parents, in the preceding summer, he visited Hawaii to interview for his new school.

  13. Jules May 7, 2011 at 10:05 pm  (Quote) #

    Tarrant:
    Also note, Douglas that birth certificates are NOT ISSUED BY hOSPITALS. They are issued by states. The “certificate” given to parents as they leave with a baby is a souvenir, a decorative item. Birth certificates, long or short (some states do not offer the former) that are valid for purposes of identity are provided by states.

    It depends on what you mean by “birth certificate”.

    If you mean the documents that you and I can hold and use as evidence of our citizenship, then yes, these documents are issued by state, county, or municipal registrars.

    However, the original birth registration record is the ultimate basis for the certified copies or abstracts that you and I can order. These original registrations are indeed created by the hospital and then transmitted to public authorities for processing.

    Birthers get angry because Obama only has in his possession a birth certificate according to the former meaning of the term. However, only the Hawaii Department of Health has access to his birth certificate in the latter sense of the term and this will always be the case for him and everyone else born in Hawaii.

  14. NBC May 7, 2011 at 10:11 pm  (Quote) #

    Fred: Which the people behind this would know nothing about since they probably never owned a passport.

    Probably true, as the passport remains the property of the United States.

    (a) A passport at all times remains the property of the United States and must be returned to the U.S. Government upon demand.

    But there is reasonable evidence that Obama did own his own passport.

  15. Welsh Dragon May 7, 2011 at 11:07 pm  (Quote) #

    HB121 has not in fact been passed-

    http://www.house.mo.gov/BillActions.aspx?bill=HB121&year=2011&code=R

    it’s been waiting a third reading in the House for some weeks and my reading of the situation is that it’s been superceded by the House substitute for SB282..

    Both appear to be attempts in introduce wide ranging omnibus election bills and there’s a lot of duplication between them, including the birther aspect, so I think the Doc’s source has confused them.

    Interestingly the Senate has declined to accept the House amendments and sent SB282 into conference.

  16. Leslie Simmons May 7, 2011 at 11:12 pm  (Quote) #

    I cannot remember the name of this person…but it was out in front of a church that he was shot it the hear…He was a witness to the passport break in …That sure is strange that this man was shot right before the hearing…It seems to me that he had some damming information against Obama….Thank you

  17. Leslie Simmons May 7, 2011 at 11:13 pm  (Quote) #

    I am sorry I meant ” Head ”

  18. Leslie Simmons May 7, 2011 at 11:15 pm  (Quote) #

    I am back…I looked up the information regarding the issue I posted about…you can read it for yourself and also look it up online…

    John Brennan Involved in Hussein Obama Passport Breach
    Jul 4, 2010 … Shot in the head, in his car, in front of his church. … A key witness in a federal probe into passport information stolen from the State Department was fatally … “Has he disclosed all the details regarding his Pakistan visit? …. I just can’t believe all the controversy surrounding this man. …

    http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/john-brennan-involved-in-hussein... – Similar

  19. Majority Will May 7, 2011 at 11:21 pm  (Quote) #

    Leslie Simmons: It seems to me that he had some damming information against Obama.

    And yet, you obviously and admittedly know next to nothing about the story.

    It seems to me your unsubstantiated suspicion and paranoia is actually damning information about and a pretty solid indication of Leslie Simmon’s bigotry and small mindedness.

    Truly disgusting and pathetic, Leslie. And you’re welcome.

    People shouldn’t wonder why birthers are treated with derision.

  20. Majority Will May 7, 2011 at 11:23 pm  (Quote) #

    Leslie Simmons:
    I am back…I looked up the information regarding the issue I posted about…you can read it for yourself and also look it up online… (birther blog blather)

    Citing a birther blog is not credible evidence of anything, Leslie.

  21. Obsolete May 7, 2011 at 11:31 pm  (Quote) #

    Leslie-
    Do you always spread whispers and dark suspicions against everyone in cases and circumstances you know little about, or do you only do it against the scary black man in the White House?

    Have you ever heard a smear against Obama that was so far out that you though it was crazy, or do you believe them all?

  22. Leslie Simmons May 7, 2011 at 11:45 pm  (Quote) #

    You know why does it always have to come down to the “the Black Man”. Thats shows where education is from. .I didn’t report this….Its a fact…and after this is when Obama admitted to traveling to Pakistan in 1981…Come on people wake up…Its just a matter of time before he is found out and he will pay for his crimes…He is not a “Natural Born Citizen” Do your reseach before you run at the mouth. Call me what you want…He is ruining this country…and hopefully we can stop it before it is to late…….

  23. richCares May 8, 2011 at 12:04 am  (Quote) #

    my opinion, anyone as mentally disturbed as Leslie Simmons, should not be able to post such vile things. Leslie belongs in a mental institution.

  24. Jules May 8, 2011 at 12:04 am  (Quote) #

    Leslie Simmons:
    I am back…I looked up the information regarding the issue I posted about…you can read it for yourself and also look it up online…

    John Brennan Involved in Hussein Obama Passport Breach
    Jul 4, 2010 … Shot in the head, in his car, in front of his church. … A key witness in a federal probe into passport information stolen from the State Department was fatally … “Has he disclosed all the details regarding his Pakistan visit? …. I just can’t believe all the controversy surrounding this man. …

    http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/john-brennan-involved-in-hussein... – Similar

    You may want to read the following: http://acc-tv.com/sites/wjla/news/stories/videos/harrischargingdoc.pdf

    As you will see, Mr Harris was caught in possession of stolen passport applications and credit cards. The only connection that this has to Obama is that he is one person whose passport records were illegally accessed in 2008.

    There was nothing about the investigation to suggest that it dealt with fraudulent passport applications or irregular proof of citizenship or identity. Rather, it dealt with fraud committed against those who had submitted ordinary passport applications. If Obama had any interest in it as someone whose passport records were unlawfully accessed, it would have been for the investigation to continue so that all those who misused personal data could be caught.

  25. Douglas May 8, 2011 at 12:17 am  (Quote) #

    Tarrant: Also note, Douglas that birth certificates are NOT ISSUED BY hOSPITALS. They are issued by states. The “certificate” given to parents as they leave with a baby is a souvenir, a decorative item. Birth certificates, long or short (some states do not offer the former) that are valid for purposes of identity are provided by states.

    Gee, if such a vital record as a ‘hospital-issued’ birth certificate is a mere ‘souvenir, a decorative item’ (Does that mean fancy calligraphy and Hawaiian flowers adorn it, with perhaps little hand and foot prints prominently displayed like my certificate?), then perhaps I could purchase a copy at the Kapiolani Medical Center gift shop. I would reckon that such an item would be a collectible one day. Never mind that bland and pedestrian green Department of Health certificate that Obama released! By the way, does anyone know if Dr. Sinclair (the now-deceased OB/GYN) was on the hospital staff in August 1961? (Just asking!)

  26. Jules May 8, 2011 at 12:20 am  (Quote) #

    Leslie Simmons: and after this is when Obama admitted to traveling to Pakistan in 1981…

    Yes, he travelled to Pakistan in 1981. So what? The New York Times had an article in 1981 about the wonders of Lahore and it noted that US citizens could obtain a Pakistani visa on arrival at the aiport, provided that they had valid US passports.

    I know that some people really hate the New York Times, but it’s a bit much to say that someone is a criminal for following the suggestion of the travel section.

  27. Obsolete May 8, 2011 at 12:29 am  (Quote) #

    Douglas said:
    “Gee, if such a vital record as a ‘hospital-issued’ birth certificate is a mere souvenir, a decorative item’ (Does that mean fancy calligraphy and Hawaiian flowers adorn it, with perhaps little hand and foot prints prominently displayed like my certificate?), then perhaps I could purchase a copy at the Kapiolani Medical Center gift shop.”

    Are you one of Obama’s parents? If not, you probably have no right to obtain one.

  28. Rickey May 8, 2011 at 12:29 am  (Quote) #

    Leslie – if you stay here for any length of time you will quickly discover that we do not have much use for people who spread lies and misinformation.

    1. You are the only person who has mentioned “the Black Man.”

    2. Obama didn’t “admit” to traveling to Pakistan. He volunteered the information. No one asked him about it.

    3. If Obama had traveled to Pakistan on an Indonesian passport, the U.S. Passport Office would have had no record of it. In fact, the U.S. Passport Office wouldn’t have a record of it if (as he actually did) Obama traveled on a U.S. Passport. The Passport Office keeps records of our passports, but not of the countries we travel to.

    4. The website which you linked to claims that there was a ban on U.S. citizens traveling to Pakistan in 1981. In fact, there was no such ban. Americans were free to travel to Pakistan in 1981 and Pakistan International Airlines had regularly scheduled non-stop flights from New York to Pakistan in 1981.

    5. No passport records were stolen or tampered with. An employee of a security company which had a government contract accessed (i.e., looked at) the passport records of Obama, McCain, and Hillary Clinton.

    So when you say “do your research,” you might want to consider heeding your own advice.

  29. obsolete May 8, 2011 at 12:39 am  (Quote) #

    Leslie-
    I don’t care if you dislike Obama, nor do I care why you may not like him.

    However, I DO CARE when you talk openly of your seditious plans to overturn a free and fair election. This is where I will fight you tooth and nail.

    Be a man- quit spreading lies against Obama, and work for the candidate of your choice in 2012.

    Your feelings are not more important than those of the 69 million who voted for Obama.

  30. Jules May 8, 2011 at 12:39 am  (Quote) #

    Douglas: Gee, if such a vital record as a ‘hospital-issued’ birth certificate is a mere souvenir, a decorative item’ (Does that mean fancy calligraphy and Hawaiian flowers adorn it, with perhaps little hand and foot prints prominently displayed like my certificate?), then perhaps I could purchase a copy at the Kapiolani Medical Center gift shop. I would reckon that such an item would be a collectible one day. Never mind that bland and pedestrian green Department of Health certificate that Obama released! By the way, does anyone know if Dr. Sinclair (the now-deceased OB/GYN) was on the hospital staff in August 1961? (Just asking!)

    I think you’ll find that a document given to you directly by the hospital and not certified as a true copy or abstract by a state, county, or municipal registrar is not “primary evidence of US citizenship” for the purpose of applying for a first US passport.

    By the way, the Certification of Live Birth that we saw in 2008 meets State Department standards to be treated as “primary evidence of US citizenship”. Of course, Obama would not need to use it for that purpose because he has had a passport for some time. When his first passport was issued, it would have been obtained using a certified copy issued in the 1960s, which was probably produced from a microfilm copy of the original.

  31. obsolete May 8, 2011 at 12:44 am  (Quote) #

    Douglas: By the way, does anyone know if Dr. Sinclair (the now-deceased OB/GYN) was on the hospital staff in August 1961? (Just asking!)

    No, he was vacationing in Kenya at that time. But Soros hid the records.

  32. nc1 May 8, 2011 at 12:51 am  (Quote) #

    Douglas: Gee, if such a vital record as a ‘hospital-issued’ birth certificate is a mere souvenir, a decorative item’ (Does that mean fancy calligraphy and Hawaiian flowers adorn it, with perhaps little hand and foot prints prominently displayed like my certificate?), then perhaps I could purchase a copy at the Kapiolani Medical Center gift shop. I would reckon that such an item would be a collectible one day. Never mind that bland and pedestrian green Department of Health certificate that Obama released! By the way, does anyone know if Dr. Sinclair (the now-deceased OB/GYN) was on the hospital staff in August 1961? (Just asking!)

    Until few days ago Obots claimed that Dr. West was the attending physician.

  33. Jules May 8, 2011 at 12:54 am  (Quote) #

    nc1: Until few days ago Obots claimed that Dr. West was the attending physician.

    I believe that some people speculated as to this. Clearly, they were wrong on this point. So what?

  34. obsolete May 8, 2011 at 12:54 am  (Quote) #

    nc1: Until few days ago Obots claimed that Dr. West was the attending physician.

    Guess what? Us Obots were wrong! (It seemed like a logical guess from what we knew).

    Now, do you have something that YOU were wrong about that you would like to get off your chest?

  35. Dave May 8, 2011 at 1:02 am  (Quote) #

    If all this bill asks for is proof of identity and proof of citizenship, I don’t see how it can be called a birther bill.

    And it’s the first one I’ve seen that appears to have no legal problems.

    I suspect those two things are related.

  36. NBC May 8, 2011 at 1:09 am  (Quote) #

    Now, do you have something that YOU were wrong about that you would like to get off your chest?

    Could this website handle that kind of bandwidth?
    So Dr West was not the attending, so what? We have the long form…

  37. obsolete May 8, 2011 at 1:15 am  (Quote) #

    (OT- But I just saw this posted to the Amazon forums- delete or move as needed)

    Praise for Obama’s first-day executive order which opened up access to Presidential records:

    A Victory For Future Historians
    http://blog.nixonfoundation.org/2009/01/a-victory-for-future-historians/

    “President Obama’s executive order regarding presidential records is a victory for future historians. (See here) Truly it is a new day for GWBs future historians. Before January 20, 2009, the future biographers of GWB faced a difficult road in the true telling of their history. While they will probably have many, many accounts from people who worked in the administration; because of the actions of the 43rd President; they would have lacked important archival materials. Important documents that would have shed light on important issues of the last administration such as Iraq, the recent economic crises, Katrina, and other domestic and international events. However, the recent executive order makes their road a somewhat easier one.”

    —————-

    For any serious future historians, the goal must be the true telling of history. For the biographers, this will lead to the timeless biography that will be consulted for years to come. We, as Nixon historians, are fortunate to have the tools available to accomplish this. In light of the Obama order: the GWB biographer has a better opportunity to tell the true story as well.”

  38. G May 8, 2011 at 2:04 am  (Quote) #

    nc1: Until few days ago Obots claimed that Dr. West was the attending physician.

    Claim is the wrong word, as nobody knew. Only SPECULATION was done, that Dr. West was the most likely candidate, based on what scraps of information were known before the LFBC was released.

    Big difference. Speculation is called “guessing”.

  39. Lupin May 8, 2011 at 3:17 am  (Quote) #

    Regarding Obama’s passport — can we take notice of the fact that, as pointed out before, he visited France (at least) when he was a student according to his own declarations(interview with Canal Plus transcribed on the white house site) and other french sources interviewed by our fearless media.

    Obviously that required a perfectly standard US passport.

  40. Lupin May 8, 2011 at 3:18 am  (Quote) #

    For birthers, I should add that it is at that time that Obama received his orders from his secret French overlords. Bwa-ha-ha.

  41. The Magic M May 8, 2011 at 6:26 am  (Quote) #

    > He is not a “Natural Born Citizen” Do your reseach before you run at the mouth.

    Obviously your “research” was limited to “parrot what birfer sites spout”. Or do you claim to be one of the few persons who “got it right” while 200+ years of case law and legal experts “got it wrong”?

  42. Jules May 8, 2011 at 6:40 am  (Quote) #

    Lupin:
    For birthers, I should add that it is at that time that Obama received his orders from his secret French overlords. Bwa-ha-ha.

    No, he takes his orders from the British. There’s a worldwide travel ban for Americans and Obama is still planning to visit the UK later this month! He must be using a British passport to flout the ban! The US Embassy’s own has confirmed that he is going to London because the Queen demanded it of him.

    By the way, it is common knowledge throughout North London that Obama was born in my local NHS hospital. Donald Trump has investigators combing thorugh records in the UK and you wouldn’t believe what they’re finding!

  43. Majority Will May 8, 2011 at 7:19 am  (Quote) #

    nc1: Until few days ago Obots claimed that Dr. West was the attending physician.

    That you cling to irrelevant minutiae is further proof of your degenerative mental disease.

    What’s next for you? What happens when you finally snap? Are you stalking “Obots”?

    By the way, birther idiots like you have still been unable to produce the law or show where in the Constitution proof of physician or hospital is required.

    Why are you so anti-American? Why do you despise our laws?

  44. Northland10 May 8, 2011 at 7:41 am  (Quote) #

    nc1:

    A while back, when I (and Greg) asked you to provide evidence that convinced you that the President was born elsewhere, you kept responding that, if he would just provide “his papers” than you wouldn’t need to provide evidence. He has now done so to a degree much higher than required by this Missouri bill.

    Your turn…. where is your evidence?

    Obviously, you have moved on to the citizen parent excuse which makes me wonder, why did you need him to give you proof of birth here? We already knew his father was not a citizen. Yet, you still claim he is not a Natural Born Citizen.

    I now must ask, what is your evidence for claiming he is not a Natural Born Citizen? What convinced you he is not “American?”

    I recommend you try being truly honest, not just with us, but with yourself.

  45. Reality Check May 8, 2011 at 7:48 am  (Quote) #

    nc1 is now accepting the validity of the LFBC (re: attending physician). That is progress!

  46. Dr. Conspiracy May 8, 2011 at 9:41 am  (Quote) #

    Douglas: Perhaps Dr. Conspiracy could verify this.

    But of course, the President traveled internationally on multiple occasions before becoming a senator, so he would have to have had an ordinary passport.

    From what I have read on the State Department site, even diplomatic passports require submission of proof of citizenship just like the others. In Obama’s case, one would expect that he used his expired passport as the proof.

  47. Fred May 8, 2011 at 11:11 am  (Quote) #

    Douglas: I understand that Obama was issued his first passport upon election to the United States Senate in 2004. The passport has diplomatic status and is not subject to the rigors of application to which us mortals are subject (e.g., a long form birth certificate issued by a hospital).

    Perhaps Dr. Conspiracy could verify this.

    Concern troll much?

  48. Black Lion May 8, 2011 at 11:14 am  (Quote) #

    Louisiana governor Jindal caught in birther flap
    By Kathy Finn Kathy Finn
    Sat May 7, 8:24 pm ET

    .NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) – A photo of Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal’s birth certificate was published by a newspaper on Saturday even though there is no doubt the Indian American Republican was born in the United States.

    Jindal, who is not running for president in 2012 but is mentioned as a possible vice presidential running mate, released the certificate to prove a newspaper editorial wrong.

    Jindal was born in the United States to Indian immigrant parents who held green cards at the time.

    The flap started when Jindal said last month that he would sign a state bill, if it reached his desk, that would require candidates for federal office on the Louisiana ballot to show proof of birth in the U.S.

    The bill was a response to doubts about President Barack Obama’s Hawaii birth raised by possible Republican presidential candidates such as businessman Donald Trump. Obama recently released his full birth certificate to squelch the doubts.

    After Jindal endorsed the Louisiana “birther” bill, the Baton Rouge daily newspaper, The Advocate, on April 22 published a critical editorial.

    “Piyush Amrit Jindal is the last man in America who should give his blessing to a birther bill,” the editorial said.

    Jindal’s office angrily responded that the newspaper had got the governor’s middle name wrong. “Amrit,” was the name of an ancient Middle East city, Jindal’s office said, and not his middle name.

    Jindal offered to release his birth certificate to prove it. The Advocate received the birth certificate, apologized for use of an “incorrect middle name” and removed “Amrit” from the online version of the editorial.

    Asked about the incident, The Advocate Executive Editor Carl Redman told Reuters, “I think the point of the editorial was that the Indian American governor of Louisiana should not be worried about people’s origins and birthplaces. That’s one of the great things about this country.”

    But the incident lived on when the New Orleans Times-Picayune on Saturday ran a photo of the birth certificate and a long article about the details of his parents’ entry into the United States.

    The birth certificate shows his name as only “Piyush Jindal” with no middle name. Jindal has long used the first name “Bobby.”

    Jindal’s spokesman confirmed on Saturday the details in the article of his parents’ arrival in the United States. They came on green cards secured by Jindal’s engineer father, Amar Jindal, based on a 1965 law that allowed people with “exceptional ability in the sciences or arts” to enter the U.S. Jindal’s mother Raj got a spouse green card.

    Amar Jindal now works for a large engineering firm that has offices in Louisiana and around the country. Raj Jindal, who hold masters degrees in physics and nuclear engineering from Louisiana State University, is director of information technology in the Louisiana Department of Labor.

    Bernie Pinsonat, a Baton Rouge political analyst and pollster, said the whole saga could confuse some people.

    “I have no idea why he did this (release the certificate) except maybe he thinks he’ll get some popularity points nationally,” Pinsonat said. “Nobody in Louisiana doubts that he was born in the United States.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_birther_jindal

  49. Majority Will May 8, 2011 at 11:21 am  (Quote) #

    Douglas: Gee, if such a vital record as a ‘hospital-issued’ birth certificate is a mere souvenir, a decorative item’ (Does that mean fancy calligraphy and Hawaiian flowers adorn it, with perhaps little hand and foot prints prominently displayed like my certificate?), then perhaps I could purchase a copy at the Kapiolani Medical Center gift shop. I would reckon that such an item would be a collectible one day. Never mind that bland and pedestrian green Department of Health certificate that Obama released! By the way, does anyone know if Dr. Sinclair (the now-deceased OB/GYN) was on the hospital staff in August 1961? (Just asking!)

    If personal privacy laws mean nothing to you (like most idiot birthers), then don’t be a hypocrite and post a copy of your original birth certificate. Please include your SSN and your work and cell number for verification purposes only.

    What are you hiding?

    Just asking!

  50. Slartibartfast May 8, 2011 at 11:29 am  (Quote) #

    Majority Will: Citing a birther blog is not credible evidence of anything, Leslie.

    On the contrary, Will, I believe that citing a birther blog (in support of an argument) is EXTREMELY credible evidence that a person is a bigoted idiot – I can cite examples too numerous to count on this blog alone…

  51. Majority Will May 8, 2011 at 11:54 am  (Quote) #

    Slartibartfast: On the contrary, Will, I believe that citing a birther blog (in support of an argument) is EXTREMELY credible evidence that a person is a bigoted idiot – I can cite examples too numerous to count on this blog alone…

    Geller spews so many outright lies and spins the rest so her gullible cult can salivate.

    “Lt. Quarles Harris Jr., 24”

    Gee, there’s an enormous clue this racist, mentally challenged fool has no idea what she’s barking about.

  52. Rickey May 8, 2011 at 12:17 pm  (Quote) #

    Douglas: By the way, does anyone know if Dr. Sinclair (the now-deceased OB/GYN) was on the hospital staff in August 1961? (Just asking!)

    “Sinclair had an obstetrics and gynecology practice in Honolulu and delivered babies all over Hawaii when Obama was born in 1961, said his son Karl Sinclair, 55, of Kailua. The doctor retired in the late 1990s and died in 2003 at 81.”

    http://newsone.com/nation/associatedpress4/obama-birth-certificate-dr-sinclair/

    “David A Sinclair was a fighter pilot in World War II. After the war he returned to Hawaii. He fell in love and married Ivalee in 1947.

    “I know he was beloved by many people,” said Sinclair.

    He was an Obgyn in Hawaii from 1960 to 1988 and delivered thousands of babies in that time but he and his family had no idea one of them would go on to be president.

    “Rather awesome,” laughed Sinclair. “Amazing, I knew he was a good physician and I knew he took good care of his people, but I had no idea he delivered someone of such fame.”

    She says President Obama’s mom was likely Dr. Sinclair’s patient because he worked in a solo practice and did not respond to deliveries for anyone but his own patients.

    Dr. Sinclair passed away in 2003 but Mrs. Sinclair has no doubt it’s her husband signature and says there is no way it’s faked or forged.

    “That is his signature and I have many pieces of paper with his signature on it and I’d be happy to show them to anyone who questions it but that is his signature,” said Sinclair.”

    http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/14529568/president-obamas-birth-certificate-delivers-news-to-doctors-family

    And of course it defies logic to suggest than an ob/gyn in Honolulu would not have had hospital privileges at the hospital where the overwhelming majority of Oahu births took place.

  53. Joey May 8, 2011 at 12:21 pm  (Quote) #

    G: Claim is the wrong word, as nobody knew. Only SPECULATION was done, that Dr. West was the most likely candidate, based on what scraps of information were known before the LFBC was released.

    Big difference.Speculation is called “guessing”.

    Also an “Attending Physician” is any doctor on a hospital staff who isn’t a resident. The signature of an attending physician from four days after the birth does not necessarily mean that the attending physician was the birth doctor. Also, if there was a long period of labor, more than one OB/GYN might have been involved in the delivery.
    Sometimes things aren’t “either/or,” they are “both.”
    The difference in doctor’s names on the certificate could literally be accounted for by who happened to be on duty in OB/GYN when the birth records were ready to go to the Health Bureau.

  54. Rickey May 8, 2011 at 12:34 pm  (Quote) #

    Douglas: The passport has diplomatic status and is not subject to the rigors of application to which us mortals are subject (e.g., a long form birth certificate issued by a hospital).

    Really? Do you have a passport?

    I have had a passport for years, and the short-form birth certificate which I submitted with my passport application contains less information than Obama’s COLB. I have never been asked to produce a “long form” birth certificate for any reason. The one I have was sufficient for me to obtain a driver’s license, a Social Security Number, enlist in the U.S. Navy, and register to vote.

  55. Joey May 8, 2011 at 12:35 pm  (Quote) #

    Dr. Conspiracy: But of course, the President traveled internationally on multiple occasions before becoming a senator, so he would have to have had an ordinary passport.

    From what I have read on the State Department site, even diplomatic passports require submission of proof of citizenship just like the others. In Obama’s case, one would expect that he used his expired passport as the proof.

    President Obama would have needed his first US passport at age 6 in 1967 when his mother and he moved to Indonesia.

  56. Leslie Simmons May 8, 2011 at 1:00 pm  (Quote) #

    I have never been around so much hate…You all can just call me what you want,,because that is the level of your education obviously….I never once attack any of you…I just gave my opinion,…that is backed by proof or I would not of posted it You talk about me being a bigot…I will just :Pray for all of You…I am leaving this God forsaken forum….Just one thing the first Executive Order # 13489 that Obama issued was on Jan 19, 2009, in which he seals all of his private records I wonder why he did that???????.

  57. Rickey May 8, 2011 at 1:09 pm  (Quote) #

    Leslie – Why would God answer the prayers of someone like you, who repeatedly spreads lies and misinformation?

    Have you ever actually read Executive Order 13489? The order has nothing – repeat, nothing – to do with Obama’s private records.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ExecutiveOrderPresidentialRecords

  58. NBC May 8, 2011 at 1:30 pm  (Quote) #

    So you heard some rumors, made some vague connections, have no facts to link the two and make some unsupported assertions.

    Why are you willing to make such a statement when there is no evidence? Explain yourself.

    Leslie Simmons: I cannot remember the name of this person…but it was out in front of a church that he was shot it the hear…He was a witness to the passport break in …That sure is strange that this man was shot right before the hearing…It seems to me that he had some damming information against Obama….Thank you

  59. NBC May 8, 2011 at 1:32 pm  (Quote) #

    I didn’t report this….Its a fact…and after this is when Obama admitted to traveling to Pakistan in 1981…Come on people wake up…Its just a matter of time before he is found out and he will pay for his crimes…He is not a “Natural Born Citizen” Do your reseach before you run at the mouth

    I guess you have not seen his long from birth certificate which supports his COLB, both of which show him born on US soil and thus a natural born citizen.

    Do you hate our President that much that you find it necessary to make up stories?
    I do understand that you have ‘found him guilty’ based on speculative rumors. What about doing the research yourself?

    Concern troll…

  60. Slartibartfast May 8, 2011 at 1:35 pm  (Quote) #

    Leslie Simmons:
    I have never been around so much hate…You all can just call me what you want,,because that is the level of your education obviously….I never once attack any of you…I just gave my opinion,…that is backed by proof or I would not of posted itYou talk about me being a bigot…I will just ray for all of You…I am leaving this God forsaken forum….Just one thing the first Executive Order # 13489that Obama issued was on Jan 19, 2009, in which he seals all of his private records I wonder why he did that???????.

    You’ve done nothing but attempt to spread baseless lies for seditious purposes – you have no credibility to talk about hate when you’ve so proudly displayed your own bigotry (you’ve deserved all the comments directed your way – why have you chosen to put yourself in the company of racists?) On the subject of education, many of the posters here are lawyers as well as several PhDs and countless other highly educated professionals. Your obvious lack of critical thinking skills shows that even if you were exposed to a good education, it didn’t take… in other words: you’re an idiot.

  61. Jules May 8, 2011 at 1:39 pm  (Quote) #

    Leslie Simmons:
    I have never been around so much hate…You all can just call me what you want,,because that is the level of your education obviously….I never once attack any of you…I just gave my opinion,…that is backed by proof or I would not of posted itYou talk about me being a bigot…I will just ray for all of You…I am leaving this God forsaken forum….Just one thing the first Executive Order # 13489that Obama issued was on Jan 19, 2009, in which he seals all of his private records I wonder why he did that???????.

    With respect, I think that someone who insinuates, despite lack of any evidence, that Obama is somehow responsible for a murder should not be surprised when she receives angry responses. As you specifically stated that Obama has committed crimes and that he is not a natural-born citizen, you have made defamatory remarks that will necessarily provoke disdain when made without cause.

    You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts. Your allegations against Obama not only lack proof, but have been demonstrated to be incorrect.

  62. Dr. Conspiracy May 8, 2011 at 2:21 pm  (Quote) #

    Welsh Dragon: HB121 has not in fact been passed-

    My understanding is that it was passed May 4. The Legislative website may not be up to date.

  63. Dr. Conspiracy May 8, 2011 at 2:33 pm  (Quote) #

    Leslie Simmons: I cannot remember the name of this person…but it was out in front of a church that he was shot it the hear…He was a witness to the passport break in …That sure is strange that this man was shot right before the hearing…It seems to me that he had some damming information against Obama….Thank you

    See http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/apr/19/key-witness-in-passport-fraud-case-fatally-shot/

    I don’t know that “damning” evidence he could have had against Obama, or how you would know that. Maybe he had some damning evidence against Hillary Clinton, or John McCain, the other victims of the breach.

  64. Majority Will May 8, 2011 at 2:40 pm  (Quote) #

    Leslie Simmons:
    I have never been around so much hate…You all can just call me what you want,,because that is the level of your education obviously….I never once attack any of you…I just gave my opinion,…that is backed by proof or I would not of posted itYou talk about me being a bigot…I will just ray for all of You…I am leaving this God forsaken forum….Just one thing the first Executive Order # 13489that Obama issued was on Jan 19, 2009, in which he seals all of his private records I wonder why he did that???????.

    You made it perfectly clear from your posts that you have no interest in the truth.

    Your concept of what constitutes proof is very disturbing.

    Pray for yourself and please leave me out of your twisted birther fantasies.

    Here’s a few free hints.

    “Lt. Quarles Harris Jr.” is not correct and he was not an officer at all. His name was Leiutenant Quarles Harris, Jr. It’s an important difference.

    More information with links to sources: http://barackryphal.blogspot.com/2010/09/birther-mythbusting-leiutenant-quarles.html

    And on Executive Order 13489 (sheesh, don’t be so lazy):

    Find out why on January 18th, 1989, then-President Ronald Reagan signed Executive Order 12667, which established policies and procedures to govern executive privilege from current and former Presidents in connection with their Presidential Records.

    Now read 13489. Do you need a link to an official site? Something other than a birther propaganda cesspool?

  65. Paul Pieniezny May 8, 2011 at 2:45 pm  (Quote) #

    Black Lion: They came on green cards secured by Jindal’s engineer father, Amar Jindal, based on a 1965 law that allowed people with “exceptional ability in the sciences or arts” to enter the U.S. Jindal’s mother Raj got a spouse green card.

    Really? Another version was that his mother was invited by a US University as a researcher, and they came on student visas.

    Would they have been able to secure green cards in six months?

    I am suspicious of the green card theory, for two reasons:

    1) in 2008, someone added to Jindal’s article on Wikipedia that BOTH his parents naturalized before he was born. That was of course a lie, put up by a Vatellist afraid that Democarts would point at Jindal (if Jindal had secured the VP nomination).

    2) a new immigration bill in Louisiana actually wants to take away citizenship birthright from babies born to transients, people without residence rights and green cards. Babies born to people on student visa would no longer be US citizens.

  66. Dr. Conspiracy May 8, 2011 at 2:52 pm  (Quote) #

    Leslie Simmons:
    I have never been around so much hate…You all can just call me what you want,,because that is the level of your education obviously….I never once attack any of you…I just gave my opinion,…that is backed by proof or I would not of posted it

    Being fairly knowledgeable about these things, I know that what you’ve said is not backed by proof. One will just have to find the kindest way to put that, but it is true.

    I apologize for any insults you may have received, but you cannot expect to be well received when you say things that aren’t true in the nature of a character attack on a 3rd party. Such things are rightly condemned in the strongest possible way.

  67. Douglas May 8, 2011 at 3:15 pm  (Quote) #

    Slartibartfast: Given what Republican legislatures are doing in states like Wisconsin, Ohio, and Michigan, I’m perfectly happy with them wasting their time like this…

    If you’re referring to public employee pension reform and collective bargaining ‘rights’ (no such thing), don’t forget to include the ‘progressive’ capital of the U.S., Massachusetts: (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704463804576291240909536676.html)
    (Perhaps off-topic, but I’m tried of Republican bashing!)

  68. Dr. Conspiracy May 8, 2011 at 3:21 pm  (Quote) #

    Leslie Simmons:
    I have never been around so much hate…

    Pardon my confusion, but I see coming from the same IP address:
    Leslie Simmons
    Atticus Finch
    dede
    george wrentmore
    jamese777
    Mary Brown
    John Reilly

    Is this an Internet cafe or a bad case of MPD?

  69. Joey May 8, 2011 at 3:37 pm  (Quote) #

    Birthers, other conspiracy theorists, make governing difficult
    By ROBERT A. GOLDBERG
    The Salt Lake Tribune
    May 07 2011
    Is the President of the United States an American? Or a Kenyan, a Muslim, the Anti-Christ? Or is he a Manchurian Candidate programmed at some future time to betray his country? These are serious charges vehemently leveled by the latter-day Paul Reveres cocooned in an echo chamber of chat rooms, talk radio, and the Internet.
    Recently, their fears have escaped the fringe, with mainstream personalities like CNN’s Lou Dobbs and Republican presidential hopeful Donald Trump latching on to the “birther” movement’s claims that Barak Obama’s birth certificate is a forgery. Opinion polls reveal public fears: 25 percent of Americans believe that Obama was born outside the United States with 58 percent of Republicans convinced that Obama is not a citizen or are unsure.
    The noise is so loud that President Obama went to the White House briefing room to produce his Certificate of Live Birth and prove his citizenship and loyalty to the nation. Obama’s declaration will not be the last word.
    Conspiracy theorists know that the devil is in the details and will not release their grip on a fear that has brought the media spotlight and potential political and financial capital. They will scour the document for clues of deceit and begin the hunt for witnesses. Look for “lost” Kenyan birth certificates to surface soon.
    But this story is more than a treasure hunt for the “holy” document. It has wider implications. It concerns power. It relates to race. Since emancipation, African-Americans have struggled for full citizenship and have yet to reach the end.
    How ironic that the nation’s president and most powerful black leader must literally prove his citizenship, his worth. The tea party slogan “take back the country” is sounded, at least in part, in racial tones.
    The birth certificate furor is also not an isolated event. Fear of conspiracies is an American tradition. Since our ancestors arrived in the New World in the 17th century, Americans have entertained visions of plots, conspiracies, subversions and secret alliances to destroy their communities and nation.
    Here is the general scenario: Hidden groups, intelligent, diabolical and cunning, move and shape American history. Financial catastrophes, assassinations, terrorism and deceit are their means. Wealth and power are their ends. Conspiracy theorists give no credence to chance, bureaucratic process or miscalculation. For the conspiracy-minded, everything can be explained; all the dots can be connected.
    How easy it is, then, to understand the stakes in the Obama “conspiracy.” With unlimited resources and an intense focus on power, the hidden puppet masters plotted the rise of Barack Obama.
    The “fake” birth certificate was only their first ploy. Grooming him for the presidency, they arranged a proper education, bankrolled his political career and removed all obstacles in the quest for the presidency.
    Once in the Oval Office, he would be positioned to deliver America to socialism, globalism and multiculturalism. America was destined to be a province in the New World Order run by the mysterious Insiders.
    The birth certificate, then, takes on great weight and is a battleground to be hotly contested. If proven a forgery, the plot is exposed and America saved. If that investigation fails, countersubversives remain undaunted and will continue to track the trail of conspiracy for clues of the plot.
    If not unique to our time, conspiracy theories have become easier to circulate and access, and are more resistant to change. The Internet is particularly significant. It has created a global network of linked conspiracy thinkers. Click on a website and enter a universe of conspiracy theories with links to confirming sites and related plots.
    In this parallel world, conspiracy replaces history and orders life. On blogs and in chat rooms the initiated self-segregate to seek not information, but confirmation. Researchers find that men and women who are reinforced and find agreement with like-minded individuals, become more determined in their beliefs. They may even shift to more extreme positions when validated.
    Conspiracy thinking is not harmless. Conspiracy theories are dangerous because they demonize public officials and erode faith in national institutions. Negotiation and compromise become impossible when charges of betrayal and treason pepper debate.
    The loss of trust in America’s leaders and institutions has gone beyond healthy skepticism. Allegiance has become suspect and governance more difficult.
    Mr. Obama’s skirmish over his birth certificate is only the first in a war with high stakes, the control of America’s future.
    Considering racial attitudes and America’s fear of enemies within, it could prove a long struggle.
    Robert A. Goldberg is a professor of history at the University of Utah.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/51759699-82/conspiracy-obama-birth-america.html.csp?page=1

  70. Dr. Conspiracy May 8, 2011 at 3:49 pm  (Quote) #

    Joey: Also an “Attending Physician” is any doctor on a hospital staff who isn’t a resident. The signature of an attending physician from four days after the birth does not necessarily mean that the attending physician was the birth doctor. Also, if there was a long period of labor, more than one OB/GYN might have been involved in the delivery.

    The birth certificate says “Attendant” not “Attending Physician.” Whoever it is, the person is certifying that the child was born alive, and I would assume that person was the doctor performing the delivery.

  71. Dr. Conspiracy May 8, 2011 at 3:53 pm  (Quote) #

    Joey: President Obama would have needed his first US passport at age 6 in 1967 when his mother and he moved to Indonesia.

    Well, he could have traveled TO Indonesia on a family passport with his mother, but he would have needed his own for the unaccompanied return trip.

  72. Joey May 8, 2011 at 4:04 pm  (Quote) #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Well, he could have traveled TO Indonesia on a family passport with his mother, but he would have needed his own for the unaccompanied return trip.

    I don’t know if the law has changed since 1966 but before I posted i “googled” “do children need passports” and found that even newborns and infants need their own passports.

  73. richCares May 8, 2011 at 4:13 pm  (Quote) #

    when my 2 daughters took a trip to Japan (6yrs,3yrs) they had one single passport for both of them with both pictures on the one passport.

  74. Expelliarmus May 8, 2011 at 5:49 pm  (Quote) #

    Joey: Also an “Attending Physician” is any doctor on a hospital staff who isn’t a resident.

    You are correct that the terms “attending physician” is an ambiguous term that is sometimes used to simply designate the status of the doctor (“attending” is a full-fledged physician who can supervise others, as opposed to a “resident”) — but the term is also used to refer to the specific physician assigned primary responsibility for a patient. And as Doc Conspiracy points out, the birth certificate asks for the “attendant” not the “attending physician”.

    So it’s reasonable to assume that the name on the certificate is a doctor who was involved in the delivery, although you are also right that it not necessarily the doctor who performed the actual delivery. As you pointed out, for a long or complicated labor there might be more than one doctor involved — and for a very fast labor, its possible that the baby could arrive ahead of the doctor. But ordinarily the signature of the “attendant” would be a medical professional who had direct and personal knowledge of the birth, even if not the person whose hands were on the baby’s head and shoulders as it emerged.

    But the idea of “both” Dr. West and Dr. Sinclair is quite plausible, if one was coming on shift as the other was leaving, or if there were any complications at all that required a 2nd doctor, if only for a brief consult.

  75. Northland10 May 8, 2011 at 7:05 pm  (Quote) #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Pardon my confusion, but I see coming from the same IP address:
    Leslie Simmons
    Atticus Finch
    dede
    george wrentmore
    jamese777
    Mary Brown
    John Reilly

    Is this an Internet cafe or a bad case of MPD?

    It seems odd that Atticus, james777, Mary and John R would be on the same one. Does using AOL move the IP around a bit (Leslie and george had the link AOL on their/his/her posts).

    I had forgotten about Dede. Another reminder to avoid letting anger control your actions. If Leslie is a sock puppet for dede, it is good to see her calmer, but I still worry she accepts any conspiracy that fits her “feelings,” even if it lacks anything but wild claims.

  76. Dr. Conspiracy May 8, 2011 at 7:31 pm  (Quote) #

    Northland10:
    It seems odd that Atticus, james777, Mary and John R would be on the same one. Does using AOL move the IP around a bit (Leslie and george had the link AOL on their/his/her posts).

    It may be an AOL thing. All but one of those left an AOL email address. I don’t think any of them are the same person, but it’s just counterintuitive that the IP addresses would be coincident.

  77. Dr. Conspiracy May 8, 2011 at 7:36 pm  (Quote) #

    Joey:
    I don’t know if the law has changed since 1966 but before I posted i “googled” “do children need passports” and found that even newborns and infants need their own passports.

    The United States no longer issues family passports.

  78. NBC May 8, 2011 at 8:19 pm  (Quote) #

    That changed in 2004 I believe? It would make it harder for parents, after a divorce, to leave the country with a child. Or so the story goes. Of course, it also makes for a good revenue source as these documents are not cheap.

  79. Northland10 May 8, 2011 at 8:33 pm  (Quote) #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It may be an AOL thing. All but one of those left an AOL email address. I don’t think any of them are the same person, but it’s just counterintuitive that the IP addresses would be coincident.

    If AOL is still using their proxy system as they used to, users may be coming up with the same IP address. I read some time ago that Wikipedia was having some issues with trying to block vandals from AOL since they would block legitimate users also.

    I also recall Orly wanting to go after some commenter on her blog and trying to get her followers to find out about the person, in Reston, Virginia, which is home to an AOL data center, or two.

  80. Expelliarmus May 8, 2011 at 8:39 pm  (Quote) #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It may be an AOL thing. All but one of those left an AOL email address. I don’t think any of them are the same person, but it’s just counterintuitive that the IP addresses would be coincident.

    Actually, AOL will assign any of a number of IP’s, so it is very possible that one IP could be connected with more than a single user — but it is highly, highly unlikely that you would see an overlap in use of the same IP on a regular basis. This would be a rare occurrence, something akin to the likelihood of two strangers in the same room having the same birthday, but with a much smaller probability of 2 different users coming to the same site from the same IP in the same time frame. It could happen — but it’s not going to happen with half a dozen users,, especially at a site that has a niche audience.

    Also…. the AOL email IP has nothing to do with the browsing IP — you can do a simple whois check on the IP number you are seeing to determine if it is from AOL or another ISP. If it is AOL, it means someone is either using an AOL dial-up connection or using the AOL proprietary browser for the internet, rather than their regular browser (and hence logging in via AOL’s proxy server) — and if it was 1995 that wouldn’t be unusual. But this is 2011, and NO ONE accesses the internet that way any more, except really old people who figure out how to use AOL back in the 90’s and are too set in their ways to figure out how to use the browsers that everyone else uses these days. AOL is such a tiny fraction of the user market that the stats people stopped bothering to count it 10 years ago, in November of 2002 — see: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

    What is more likely, if you don’t have socket puppetry going on, is that you have multiple users on a shared computer. For example, the desktop in the basement computer room in the old folks’ home.

  81. Expelliarmus May 8, 2011 at 8:48 pm  (Quote) #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The United States no longer issues family passports.

    They would have issued family passports in the early 60’s, but Obama would have needed his own passport when he flew back alone from Indonesia.

  82. Welsh Dragon May 8, 2011 at 9:56 pm  (Quote) #

    Dr. Conspiracy: My understanding is that it was passed May 4. The Legislative website may not be up to date.

    Not according to the daily activity page fot the MO house for the 4th – but that was the date that the House committee substitute for SB282 was passed by the House.

    http://house.mo.gov/content.aspx?info=/bills111/actreg/05042011.htm

    I have known parts of the MO website be out of date (it looks as if each page has to be updated seperately) but not by more than 3 or 4 hours.

  83. Expelliarmus May 8, 2011 at 11:09 pm  (Quote) #

    Welsh Dragon is correct. The legislative web site is the best source of information. HR 121 has not passed and shows no activity since voted out of the Rules Committee with a do pass recommendation on April 7; see http://goo.gl/3jt2t

    SB 282 did pass the house and went to conference on 5/9 because the Senate refused to accede in the House Committee Substitute (HCS). See http://goo.gl/KYvmt

    The HCS text related to Presidential candidates is here: http://goo.gl/siQ9C

    When certifying presidential and vice presidential nominees and requesting that such nominees be placed on the ballot, the state committees of each political party shall provide verifiable evidence of identity and proof of natural born citizenship.

    That is only one paragraph out of a whole slew of provisions.

    The full, complete text of the bill that passed the Senate is here: http://goo.gl/ynsoT

    SB 282 – This act changes the date of the presidential primary from the first Tuesday after the first Monday in February to seven days after the New Hampshire primary.

    This act removes the first Tuesday after the first Monday in February and June as dates available for public elections.

    So basically the Senate passed a one line provision concerning the primary calendar and the House has come back with a slew of different provisions — I count 27 items — and the HCS doesn’t even manage to agree with the Senate on the issue of the primary date. (While the Senate bill sets a primary date 1 week after New Hampshire, the House version puts the primary back in November — which seems insane to me.)

    The Missouri legislature adjourns on May 30th, so what is going on (I think) is that the House threw its wish list of all the stuff it hadn’t yet managed to pass on the back of this Senate Bill — under the basic principle of flinging shit and seeing what sticks.

    I don’t know whether or not this is business as usual for Missouri. But nothing is going to get through unless they can come to terms on the primary date thing. You know what they say about the process of legislation as compared to sausage-making.

  84. Dr. Conspiracy May 9, 2011 at 9:09 am  (Quote) #

    Welsh Dragon:
    I have known parts of the MO website be out of date (it looks as if each page has to be updated separately) but not by more than 3 or 4 hours.

    I have added a note to the article that the bill may not actually have been passed.

  85. Dr. Conspiracy May 9, 2011 at 9:56 am  (Quote) #

    Expelliarmus:
    Actually, AOL will assign any of a number of IP’s, so it is very possible that one IP could be connected with more than a single user — but it is highly, highly unlikely that you would see an overlap in use of the same IP on a regular basis. This would be a rare occurrence, something akin to the likelihood of two strangers in the same room having the same birthday, but with a much smaller probability of 2 different users coming to the same site from the same IP in the same time frame. It could happen — but it’s not going to happen with half a dozen users,, especially at a site that has a niche audience.

    Also…. the AOL email IP has nothing to do with the browsing IP — you can do a simple whois check on the IP number you are seeing to determine if it is from AOL or another ISP. If it is AOL, it means someone is either using an AOL dial-up connection or using the AOL proprietary browser for the internet, rather than their regular browser (and hence logging in via AOL’s proxy server) — and if it was 1995 that wouldn’t be unusual. But this is 2011, and NO ONE accesses the internet that way any more, except really old people who figure out how to use AOL back in the 90′s and are too set in their ways to figure out how to use the browsers that everyone else uses these days. AOL is such a tiny fraction of the user market that the stats people stopped bothering to count it 10 years ago, in November of 2002 — see: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

    I have since looked up the IP address and it resolves to cache-ntc-aa07.proxy.aol.com. They are all connecting via AOL, so this explains one mechanism by which multiple people can use the same IP address.

    There are probability facts that seem counterintuitive, such as the “birthday problem” where if you have about (I forget the exact number) 27 people in a room, chances are that two will have the same birthday (not year). Still, there are a lot more IP addresses than there are days in the year. Maybe they have an Obama conspiracy club or something.

  86. Lupin May 9, 2011 at 9:58 am  (Quote) #

    Leslie Simmons: I have never been around so much hate…

    May I suggest you visit free republic or Dr. Kate?

  87. Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) May 9, 2011 at 10:16 am  (Quote) #

    Leslie Simmons: You know why does it always have to come down to the “the Black Man”. Thats shows where education is from. .I didn’t report this….Its a fact…and after this is when Obama admitted to traveling to Pakistan in 1981…Come on people wake up…Its just a matter of time before he is found out and he will pay for his crimes…He is not a “Natural Born Citizen” Do your reseach before you run at the mouth. Call me what you want…He is ruining this country…and hopefully we can stop it before it is to late…….

    Americans could travel to Pakistan in 1981. There was no travel ban.
    http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/travel/cis/southasia/TA_Pakistan1981.pdf

  88. Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) May 9, 2011 at 10:19 am  (Quote) #

    Leslie Simmons: I am back…I looked up the information regarding the issue I posted about…you can read it for yourself and also look it up online…John Brennan Involved in Hussein Obama Passport BreachJul 4, 2010 … Shot in the head, in his car, in front of his church. … A key witness in a federal probe into passport information stolen from the State Department was fatally … “Has he disclosed all the details regarding his Pakistan visit? …. I just can’t believe all the controversy surrounding this man. …http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/john-brennan-involved-in-hussein... – Similar

    There was no connection to the passport records that were accessed. Harris was a thief involved in a passport theft scam. A later article quoted the local police saying that there was no connection between the two cases.

    Try reading this: http://barackryphal.blogspot.com/2010/09/birther-mythbusting-leiutenant-quarles.html

    Click on the links in the article

  89. Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) May 9, 2011 at 10:24 am  (Quote) #

    Leslie Simmons: I have never been around so much hate…You all can just call me what you want,,because that is the level of your education obviously….I never once attack any of you…I just gave my opinion,…that is backed by proof or I would not of posted it You talk about me being a bigot…I will just ray for all of You…I am leaving this God forsaken forum….Just one thing the first Executive Order # 13489 that Obama issued was on Jan 19, 2009, in which he seals all of his private records I wonder why he did that???????.

    Typical birther play the victim card. Didn’t you say this to people? “Do your reseach before you run at the mouth”. So when people call you out for you not doing your research you get all whiny. Have you bothered to actually read Executive Order #13489? It has nothing to do with Obama sealing his personal records. The order reverses a previous order by George W. Bush which allowed for certain exclusions to the Presidential Records Archiving System. The order relates to the preservation of records created during the Presidential term that must be kept secure and archived. Learn to comprehend what you reference.

  90. The Magic M May 9, 2011 at 10:54 am  (Quote) #

    > in which he seals all of his private records

    Simple challenge for you: quote me the line(s) from EO #13489 that refer to Obama’s private records.

    Should be easy, right?

    You do understand that “presidential records” are not the same as “private records”? And that private records do not become presidential records once you become president? Probably you don’t.

  91. y_p_w May 9, 2011 at 10:59 am  (Quote) #

    I’m curious as to how they’re going to do this. At least with a birth certificate or perhaps other papers, multiple copies can be ordered. However – most people don’t have multiple identity documents. Are they going to require a driver license or passport? Will a photocopy suffice? Will a candidate effectively need to come in person to submit the documents?

    It seems pretty simple, but it lacks the details I would think would be needed for guidance as to how to enforce it properly. It could get messy if multiple states require some sort of original identity document.

  92. Slartibartfast May 9, 2011 at 11:42 am  (Quote) #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I have since looked up the IP address and it resolves to cache-ntc-aa07.proxy.aol.com. They are all connecting via AOL, so this explains one mechanism by which multiple people can use the same IP address.

    I would guess that either a mechanism like this is responsible or those are all the same person (maybe they got a hold of HB Gary’s persona management software…). Otherwise I think this would be a highly improbable event (they do happen, but you should always look for more likely explanations first…).

    There are probability facts that seem counterintuitive, such as the “birthday problem” where if you have about (I forget the exact number) 27 people in a room, chances are that two will have the same birthday (not year).Still, there are a lot more IP addresses than there are days in the year. Maybe they have an Obama conspiracy club or something.

    The odds of two people in a group of 23 having the same birthday are about 50% (it’s 70% for a group of 30 and 99% for a group of 57 [calculations assume birth on each day of the year is equally likely and ignore Feb 29]). More info on Wikipedia under ‘birthday problem’. To work the analogous ‘birther IP problem’, we would need to know the number of US IP addresses (ignoring MichaelN and other furrin birthers…) and the number of birthers. Of more interest (at least to me) would be the question of what are the odds of a banned obot having the same IP as a birther regular on a blog such as dr k(H)ate’s or the P&E. I’ve never noticed this happening (which suggests that this probability is pretty low).

    If you remember the idea Bovril had about empirically determining the demographics of birtherstan in December, I’m about to turn that up to 11, so to speak… I suspect that I will have quite a bit to say on this subject in a week or two.

  93. Thrifty May 9, 2011 at 11:54 am  (Quote) #

    Leslie Simmons: I have never been around so much hate…You all can just call me what you want,,because that is the level of your education obviously….I never once attack any of you…I just gave my opinion,…that is backed by proof or I would not of posted it You talk about me being a bigot…I will just ray for all of You…I am leaving this God forsaken forum….Just one thing the first Executive Order # 13489 that Obama issued was on Jan 19, 2009, in which he seals all of his private records I wonder why he did that???????.

    If you are going to pray, I suggest you pray for yourself, for God’s forgiveness.

    Exodus 20:16 You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

  94. James M May 9, 2011 at 11:56 am  (Quote) #

    Dr. Conspiracy:

    There are probability facts that seem counterintuitive, such as the “birthday problem” where if you have about (I forget the exact number) 27 people in a room, chances are that two will have the same birthday (not year). Still, there are a lot more IP addresses than there are days in the year. Maybe they have an Obama conspiracy club or something.

    I remember working this problem to death in a statistics class. The number is 23 people for a better than 50% chance of there being a pair, and 57 people for a better than 99% chance of there being a pair. However in this example we are choosing one side of the pair, which is not the same question as “is there a pair?” but is instead “does this one have a pair?” For that question, the birthday problem changes to require 253 people for a 50% chance of another person to have the same birthday as the one you have chosen.

    James “got a C in vector calc” M.

  95. Slartibartfast May 9, 2011 at 12:41 pm  (Quote) #

    James M: I remember working this problem to death in a statistics class.The number is 23 people for a better than 50% chance of there being a pair[correct], and 57 people for a better than 99% chance of there being a pair[correct].However in this example we are choosing one side of the pair, which is not the same question as “is there a pair?” but is instead “does this one have a pair?”[correct] For that question, the birthday problem changes to require 253 people for a 50% chance of another person to have the same birthday as the one you have chosen.[(extra-credit)correct]

    James “got a C in vector calc” M.

    Which is exactly the problem that I was talking about. If, say, dr k(H)ate blocks an obot, what are the odds that she’s blocked a hatriot as well?

    By the way, I grade your comment an ‘A+’…

    Dr. “gave countless Cs in calc” Slarti

  96. Jules May 9, 2011 at 3:23 pm  (Quote) #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Americans could travel to Pakistan in 1981.There was no travel ban.
    http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/travel/cis/southasia/TA_Pakistan1981.pdf

    As demonstrated in my facetious post above, conflating a travel advisory with a travel ban would lead one to conclude that there is a global travel ban for US citizens at the moment. Needless to say, plenty of people are using their US passports to cross international borders right now despite the State Department’s global travel alert.

  97. Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) May 9, 2011 at 3:25 pm  (Quote) #

    Jules: As demonstrated in my facetious post above, conflating a travel advisory with a travel ban would lead one to conclude that there is a global travel ban for US citizens at the moment. Needless to say, plenty of people are using their US passports to cross international borders right now despite the State Department’s global travel alert.

    Travel alerts exist for many coutries take for instance when I had a business trip to Mexico City several years back there was one.

  98. Critical Thinker May 9, 2011 at 4:47 pm  (Quote) #

    Expelliarmus:
    But the idea of “both” Dr. West and Dr. Sinclair is quite plausible, if one was coming on shift as the other was leaving, or if there were any complications at all that required a 2nd doctor, if only for a brief consult.

    I think you guys are parsing this way too carefully. How about this? A person named “Stanley” gave birth in Kapi’olani Hospital on August 4, 1961. It was unusual that a person with a man’s name had a baby and people working at the hospital who were familiar with the birth told this mildly interesting story to other people. Dr. West may have just been repeating what someone told him. Or maybe he was involved in the birth somehow. We don’t know and I don’t think it really matters. Dr. West’s comment was recounted, second hand, almost 50 years after the fact, to a Buffalo newspaper. Certainly no one involved—in 1961 or 2009—was speaking with the care they would take if they thought that their words would be used to try to unseat a president. Our everyday speech is imprecise and sometimes even inaccurate. Treating everything we say as if it were sworn testimony is sloppy data analysis. It doesn’t work for birthers and it doesn’t work for debunkers either.

  99. Dr. Conspiracy May 9, 2011 at 5:05 pm  (Quote) #

    Critical Thinker:
    Treating everything we say as if it were sworn testimony is sloppy data analysis. It doesn’t work for birthers and it doesn’t work for debunkers either.

    That is why I was so careful in my original treatment of the West story.

    More testimony: Obama was born in K…

  100. Expelliarmus May 9, 2011 at 7:52 pm  (Quote) #

    Going back to the “birthday” stats problem — I am looking at these factors:

    * Only a very small number of internet connections are via AOL proxies, as most people use other services to connect to the internet. (I believe that AOL itself offers only dialup connections)

    * obamaconspiracy.org is viewed by only a tiny percentage of internet users (as opposed to, say, Google)

    * in any internet board, the number of active posters is only a tiny fraction of the number of lurkers.

    * AOL has a very large number of IP’s in circulation for its proxies.

    * Doc Conspiracy identified 7 posters with the same IP.

    The odds of each of these 7 being unconnected is vanishingly small, especially if Doc is seeing these posters ALWAYS associated with the same AOL IP.

    I can’t calculate exact stats, but while 2 separate AOL users posting with the same IP might be remotely possible, 7 is not.

    So, again, either you have sock puppets or shared computer use — because the question becomes, “what are the odds that there are 7 AOL users who frequent obamaconspiracy.org and actively participate by posting comments, all with the same IP?”

  101. Slartibartfast May 9, 2011 at 8:12 pm  (Quote) #

    Expelliarmus:
    Going back to the “birthday” stats problem — I am looking at these factors:

    * Only a very small number of internet connections are via AOL proxies, as most people use other services to connect to the internet.(I believe that AOL itself offers only dialup connections)

    * obamaconspiracy.org is viewed by only a tiny percentage of internet users (as opposed to, say, Google)

    * in any internet board, the number of active posters is only a tiny fraction of the number of lurkers.

    * AOL has a very large number of IP’s in circulation for its proxies.

    * Doc Conspiracy identified 7 posters with the same IP.

    The odds of each of these 7 being unconnected is vanishingly small, especially if Doc is seeing these posters ALWAYS associated with the same AOL IP.

    I can’t calculate exact stats, but while 2 separate AOL users posting with the same IP might be remotely possible, 7 is not.

    So, again, either you have sock puppets or shared computer use — because the question becomes, “what are the odds that there are 7 AOL users who frequent obamaconspiracy.org and actively participate by posting comments, all with the same IP?”

    I agree with you, the evidence suggests some sort of relationship between these handles. While it might be possible that they are all separate AOL users (birtherstan does skew heavily toward senior citizens), it seems much more likely that they are all sockpuppets or that they are friends posting from the same location.

  102. Dr. Conspiracy May 9, 2011 at 8:20 pm  (Quote) #

    Expelliarmus:
    The odds of each of these 7 being unconnected is vanishingly small, especially if Doc is seeing these posters ALWAYS associated with the same AOL IP.

    I agree that the probability of this coincidence in IP addresses is negligible.

    It is not the case that these commenters always use the same IP address.

    Now THIS is even weirder. Looking around, I find other big clusters of AOL IP addresses with multiple names.

    I have ruled out impersonation because the names and email addresses are consistent (and email address can’t be impersonated because they aren’t visible to visitors).

    I need to do further study on this.

  103. Expelliarmus May 9, 2011 at 9:39 pm  (Quote) #

    Seems like we’ve got an unusually large number of AOL users.

    cache-ntc-aa07.proxy.aol.com resolves to 207.200.116.11

    I run a server for a site that is fairly high traffic — probably a couple of thousand unique visitors per day –so I ran that IP against today’s site logs. Nothing came up.

    Then I ran 207.200.116. – and things got more interesting. I saw hits from at least half a dozen different IPs, such as 207.200.116.12, 207.200.116.133 etc.

    However, while there are many other AOL IP’s in my server logs, all AOL IP’s beginning with 207. are in that 207.200.116 block — but pretty much all over the place within that block.

    Interestingly enough, all of the 207.200.116.* IP’s also are coming in with a browser signature of AOL 9.1, AOLBuild 4334.5011 (but not true of other IP’s). I’ve got about 200 hits with that signature, so a fairly good sample. However, it’s very possible that I am simply seeing the repeated hits from ONE user over the course of several days — it may be that AOL assigns different IP’s from within a narrow range to individual users, based on whatever connection plan they have. I don’t know, I’m just saying that I can’t go so far as to say that the particular IP sequence will always be associated with a specific version of AOL.

    Anyway, just some more data for your consideration.

    The AOL clusters are quite interesting given the small use of AOL these days. See http://www.businessinsider.com/2008/11/why-are-aol-users-so-overwhelmingly-republican-

  104. G May 9, 2011 at 10:31 pm  (Quote) #

    Expelliarmus: The AOL clusters are quite interesting given the small use of AOL these days. See http://www.businessinsider.com/2008/11/why-are-aol-users-so-overwhelmingly-republican-

    Old people resistant to change who’ve had AOL forever. That about sums up the majority of the AOL population and also explains why it skews so heavily GOP.

  105. Dr. Conspiracy May 10, 2011 at 1:34 am  (Quote) #

    Expelliarmus: Anyway, just some more data for your consideration.

    I’m learning that there are things I used to do all the time with huge Microsoft SQL Server databases that you just don’t do with MySQL on a web server. Choke, gasp.

    I downloaded the entire WordPress database onto my PC and I’ll try to figure out how to get it into an SQL Server database, and then I can go to town. I think what I’ll want to do is look at each AOL IP cluster and see how the user names change over time.

  106. John Reilly May 10, 2011 at 2:10 am  (Quote) #

    Dr. Conspiracy May 8, 2011 at 3:21 pm Dr. Conspiracy(Quote) # Leslie Simmons:
    I have never been around so much hate…

    Pardon my confusion, but I see coming from the same IP address:
    Leslie Simmons
    Atticus Finch
    dede
    george wrentmore
    jamese777
    Mary Brown
    John Reilly

    Is this an Internet cafe or a bad case of MPD?

    Doc: I have nothing to do with, and no knowledge of, the other names on the list, other than having read them on this site. If you read my posts, I have consistently been of the view that the short form resolved whatever issue existed (and I thought none existed). Thereafter, once the President was sworn in, the only way to get him out was through impeachment, which is simply not going to happen. The birthers have been unable to get even one representative to advance their views in the only Constitutional path to removing a President with whom one disagrees earlier than the next election, or interest one judge in moving past gateway issues. People who are that unsuccessful in persuading decisionmakers (Congress or the courts) to show any interest in the issue ought to learn from it. Of course, they can’t, as the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over in the expectation of a different result.

    People unhappy with the President ought to work for the election in 2012 of someone else, rather than continue to try to undo the results of 2008. If they think trying to argue that President Obama was not born here, or lacks a valid social security number, or is a socialist, they are free to espouse that view. I don’t think that is the path to success in electing someone else, but, then again, I’m not sure birthers can be educated.

  107. G May 10, 2011 at 2:20 am  (Quote) #

    John Reilly: Doc: I have nothing to do with, and no knowledge of, the other names on the list, other than having read them on this site

    Thanks for posting and pointing that out, John. I think we are all perplexed as to why all those names are appearing to come from the same address.

    Obviously, neither you nor Mary Brown nor James777 are the same person. Nor are any of the three of you birthers. All of you have posted here distincly on many occasions and should be well known to all the regular posters here. So it is extremely puzzling as to why any of your addresses should come up the same, let alone why some of those other birther posters should show up under that IP as well…

    The first 4 names on the list…who knows. They could be distinct birthers or include sock puppets. Until we can figure out why things are showing up as the same IP address for Doc C, we can’t really tell what is going on here.

    It is a valid question to ask if you happened to have posted from a public computer in the timeframe Doc C is referring to or if you are using an AOL email account to post.

    If we could confirm or eliminate some factors here, we could help Doc C get to the bottom of why this is occuring.

  108. G May 10, 2011 at 2:22 am  (Quote) #

    John Reilly: People unhappy with the President ought to work for the election in 2012 of someone else, rather than continue to try to undo the results of 2008. If they think trying to argue that President Obama was not born here, or lacks a valid social security number, or is a socialist, they are free to espouse that view. I don’t think that is the path to success in electing someone else, but, then again, I’m not sure birthers can be educated.

    Agreed.

  109. gorefan May 10, 2011 at 2:58 am  (Quote) #

    G: The first 4 names on the list…who knows.

    Atticus Finch is not a birther. I believe he has posted here before, and I know I’ve seen him elsewhere.

    Recently, Atticus answered ObamaReleaseYourRecords’ “natural born” delusions:

    http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2011/05/governor-jindal-releases-his-birth.html

  110. G May 10, 2011 at 3:23 am  (Quote) #

    gorefan: Atticus Finch is not a birther. I believe he has posted here before, and I know I’ve seen him elsewhere.Recently, Atticus answered ObamaReleaseYourRecords’ “natural born” delusions:http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2011/05/governor-jindal-releases-his-birth.html

    Thanks for the clarification. My apologies to accidentally calling anyone a birther who isn’t.

  111. Expelliarmus May 10, 2011 at 3:42 am  (Quote) #

    Of course another possibility it that AOL usage has diminished SO much that they have cut back on the number of IP’s used, thereby increasing the likelihood that AOL users are going to pull the same numbers from the AOL proxy.

    But that still doesn’t explain why so many posters here seem to be using AOL to access the internet, birthers & non-birthers alike.

  112. Northland10 May 10, 2011 at 7:42 am  (Quote) #

    They may not be using AOL to access but instead, using the AOL Desktop. Though I do not use it myself so I am not positive, using the AOL desktop, instead of a stand-alone browser may route the request through the AOL proxy. On their website, they claim faster page loads and such, which sounds like page requests are sent through their servers and not direct.

    They are currently offering Desktop 9.6 so build 9.1 is likely an earlier version.

    http://daol.aol.com/software/aoldesktop96/#g

    This seems plausible.

  113. Northland10 May 10, 2011 at 7:58 am  (Quote) #

    AOL may be sending X-Forwarded-For Headers now to help avoid the problem of blocking legitimate users because of the recycling of IP Addresses on their proxy. I do not know if WordPress checks those.

    Historical article on the issue:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AOL

  114. Expelliarmus May 10, 2011 at 8:43 am  (Quote) #

    I think the X-Forwarded-For header is an email header – and that would in any case track back to the user’s connection IP, rather than AOL. But Doc isn’t seeing email headers, he’s seeing the referrer IP.

    And I understand that people might be using the AOL desktop rather than the dialup — but it it still is odd to find so many AOL users (in any form) posting here. I’d think it really odd, actually, with AOL representing such a small percentage overall of browser use.

  115. G May 10, 2011 at 11:59 am  (Quote) #

    Expelliarmus: And I understand that people might be using the AOL desktop rather than the dialup — but it it still is odd to find so many AOL users (in any form) posting here. I’d think it really odd, actually, with AOL representing such a small percentage overall of browser use.

    I agree. Very perplexing…

  116. Slartibartfast May 10, 2011 at 12:51 pm  (Quote) #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I’m learning that there are things I used to do all the time with huge Microsoft SQL Server databases that you just don’t do with MySQL on a web server. Choke, gasp.

    I downloaded the entire WordPress database onto my PC and I’ll try to figure out how to get it into an SQL Server database, and then I can go to town. I think what I’ll want to do is look at each AOL IP cluster and see how the user names change over time.

    Doc,

    I’m currently working on software to collect, mine, and analyze data from blogs. I hope to be collecting the entire archive of your site (and others) within a week or two. I think that what I’m doing could help you to get much more information in an easier fashion. Please contact me at: (first name)@(last name).net to discuss this. I will be asking some of your regular posters to give their opinions on what I’m offering.

    Kevin Kesseler

  117. Vince Treacy May 10, 2011 at 1:36 pm  (Quote) #

    I think Kevin’s software is a good idea. Doc, you should take a look at ait.

  118. G May 10, 2011 at 2:48 pm  (Quote) #

    Slartibartfast: Doc,I’m currently working on software to collect, mine, and analyze data from blogs. I hope to be collecting the entire archive of your site (and others) within a week or two. I think that what I’m doing could help you to get much more information in an easier fashion. Please contact me at: (first name)@(last name).net to discuss this. I will be asking some of your regular posters to give their opinions on what I’m offering.Kevin Kesseler

    Doc C – I really encourage you to get in contact with Kevin and support his efforts here.

    We’ve been discussing the data mining techniques to get a deeper and more scientific analysis of the birthers for months offline and Slarti here has taken the lead in really devoting a large amount of time to building the algoritms and database specs to collect and analyze this properly.

    With your findings recently on the AOL addresses and your own SQL experience, I think Kevin’s already significant lead on tackling these issues would be a great boon to both of you.

    I am very eager to see the results of all these months of hard work and analysis and the data from your site will be critical to ensuring quality results. I’m sure it will make for a fascinating and very scientific blog post here (or even worthy of several posts), once completed.

    Thanks in advance for your help on this Doc C.!

    And all the best of luck to you and appreciation for all your long hours and hard work, Slarti!

  119. Dr. Conspiracy May 10, 2011 at 3:53 pm  (Quote) #

    OK, I emailed slart.

    This AOL thing, however, really doesn’t seem to be sock puppets. Take for example…

    In 2008, Cort Wrotnowski posted a couple of comments and I have also had email correspondence with him and know his email address. I conclude that the commenter was the real Cort, and he commented from an AOL Proxy IP address: 205.188.117.69. About 5 months later Mary Brown, whom we all know is totally unlike Cort Wrotnowski, arrived on that same IP address. All of her posts use the same email address, so no one is impersonating her. She posted 174 comments from that IP address between April of 2009 and December of 2010 when her IP address changed. in April of 2011 we see jleinf appear on the same IP address twice.

    jleinf posted 20 times on IP address: 64.12.117.69, another AOL Proxy. I looked at that IP address and basically what I see is Mary Brown using this address 164 times between April of 2009 until 2/15/2011 at which time this IP starts being used for jleinf. During this period we see a small number of other comments made with this IP address: Portuguese Revolutionary War Hero – Peter Francisco, BonnLass, Cae, Margie, Jack Grogan, BenjiFranklin, transsexual, creeksneakers2 and Dan.

    Mary Brown also posted about 180 times from a non-AOL IP Address, and this address never appeared under any other name.

    Another AOL Proxy address was used once by Mary Brown in July of 2009. Then in October of 2009, it was used by George Wrentmore, then for 3 weeks in 2010 it was used by dede, then in mid July of 2010, jamese777 took over the address and used it until April of 2011. (there were a few other stray names appearing under that IP during this period). Then Leslie Simmons took it over this month.

    The fact that well-known commenters hold the same IP address for definite time periods suggests to me that these IP addresses are being passed around by AOL periodically. It all still seems counterintuitive.

    What I am also seeing is that frequent commenters who used to use AOL are now showing IP address from other Internet providers.

  120. Slartibartfast May 10, 2011 at 4:18 pm  (Quote) #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    OK, I emailed slart.

    Thanks Doc – I’m working on a reply.

    This AOL thing, however, really doesn’t seem to be sock puppets. Take for example…

    In 2008, Cort Wrotnowski posted a couple of comments and I have also had email correspondence with him and know his email address. I conclude that the commenter was the real Cort, and he commented from an AOL Proxy IP address: 205.188.117.69. About 5 months later Mary Brown, whom we all know is totally unlike Cort Wrotnowski, arrived on that same IP address. All of her posts use the same email address, so no one is impersonating her. She posted 174 comments from that IP address between April of 2009 and December of 2010 when her IP address changed. in April of 2011 we see jleinf appear on the same IP address twice.

    jleinf posted 20 times on IP address: 64.12.117.69, another AOL Proxy. I looked at that IP address and basically what I see is Mary Brown using this address 164 times between April of 2009 until 2/15/2011 at which time this IP starts being used for jleinf. During this period we see a small number of other comments made with this IP address: Portuguese Revolutionary War Hero – Peter Francisco, BonnLass, Cae, Margie, Jack Grogan, BenjiFranklin, transsexual, creeksneakers2 and Dan.

    Mary Brown also posted about 180 times from a non-AOL IP Address, and this address never appeared under any other name.

    Another AOL Proxy address was used once by Mary Brown in July of 2009. Then in October of 2009, it was used by George Wrentmore, then for 3 weeks in 2010 it was used by dede, then in mid July of 2010, jamese777 took over the address and used it until April of 2011. (there were a few other stray names appearing under that IP during this period). Then Leslie Simmons took it over this month.

    The fact that well-known commenters hold the same IP address for definite time periods suggests to me that these IP addresses are being passed around by AOL periodically. It all still seems counterintuitive.

    What I am also seeing is that frequent commenters who used to use AOL are now showing IP address from other Internet providers.

    Very interesting – thanks for the info. My guess is that this will turn out to be due to something stupid done by AOL. I think that it is instructive to ask ourselves how the crack birther team of “researchers”* would have handled this. I think they would have immediately assumed that all of those identities were sockpuppets (without considering that the content suggests multiple authors) and that the puppet master’s intent was malign. I prefer Hanlon’s Razor:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

    * Imagine a ‘Dream** Team’ of Polarik, techdude, Butterdezillion, LadysForest, and Miss Tickly… *shudder*

    ** Nightmares are dreams, too, you know…

  121. Expelliarmus May 10, 2011 at 4:26 pm  (Quote) #

    I’m wondering how many internet posters who claim to be internet or media “experts” are actually AOL users.

    Just sayin’.

  122. Dr. Conspiracy May 10, 2011 at 4:53 pm  (Quote) #

    Expelliarmus:
    I’m wondering how many internet posters who claim to be internet or media “experts” are actually AOL users.

    Let me share an AOL story. Many years back I was a member of a church and the pastor created a web site for the church under his AOL account. One of his 5 “screen names” was the church name and folks could see the web site through an AOL domain/~screenname.

    Time passed and my pastor ceased to be an AOL customer and we put up a normally-hosted web site. However, the AOL site stayed up, and for some reason it, and its totally out of date information, came up first on search engines. I tried to get AOL to fix it, but they wouldn’t and I kept getting complaints from people about the church web site being so out of date.

    So, I signed up for one of those free trial AOL accounts, picked the screen name the pastor had used, went to that directory and deleted the HTML files. End of site.

  123. Paul Pieniezny May 10, 2011 at 4:53 pm  (Quote) #

    Slartibartfast: Very interesting – thanks for the info.My guess is that this will turn out to be due to something stupid done by AOL.I think that it is instructive to ask ourselves how the crack birther team of “researchers”* would have handled this.I think they would have immediately assumed that all of those identities were sockpuppets (without considering that the content suggests multiple authors) and that the puppet master’s intent was malign.I prefer Hanlon’s Razor:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

    * Imagine a ‘Dream** Team’ of Polarik, techdude, Butterdezillion, LadysForest, and Miss Tickly… *shudder*

    ** Nightmares are dreams, too, you know…

    OK, but then we must also adhere to Popper’s falsifiability principle.

    Doc, did you notice something funny about my IP number during the last few days? Since you probably do not have many visitors from skynet.be, it should be easy to establish an increase in IP switches on my account very recently. If you don’t, then it’s back to the drawing board for another razor.

  124. Daniel May 10, 2011 at 5:19 pm  (Quote) #

    Slartibartfast: * Imagine a ‘Dream** Team’ of Polarik, techdude, Butterdezillion, LadysForest, and Miss Tickly… *shudder*

    Don’t forget Squeeky, girl reporter. After all you need representation from the fourth estate in order to have credibility.

    😉

  125. Slartibartfast May 10, 2011 at 5:21 pm  (Quote) #

    Daniel: Don’t forget Squeeky, girl reporter. After all you need representation from the fourth estate in order to have credibility.

    You’re absolutely right, the Nightmare Team would have Squeeky coming off of the bench as the 6th man[iac]…

  126. Bovril May 11, 2011 at 9:02 am  (Quote) #

    H’mmmm Squeekers is far less 4th estate and far more 5th column….

  127. Daniel May 11, 2011 at 1:10 pm  (Quote) #

    Bovril:
    H’mmmm Squeekers is far less 4th estate and far more 5th column….

    Awwww c’mon.

    Squeeky is easily the intellectual equal of any of the other nominees…

    😉

  128. Bovril May 11, 2011 at 2:14 pm  (Quote) #

    Jennifer4Hillary and intellectual…..not words you ever expect to see together.

    Except of course in her little fantasy world as the “Head Researcher” at the “Birther Think Tank” she keeps pimping over at Gratewire.

  129. Scientist May 11, 2011 at 6:30 pm  (Quote) #

    Slartibartfast: Very interesting – thanks for the info. My guess is that this will turn out to be due to something stupid done by AOL. I think that it is instructive to ask ourselves how the crack birther team of “researchers”* would have handled this. I think they would have immediately assumed that all of those identities were sockpuppets (without considering that the content suggests multiple authors) and that the puppet master’s intent was malign. I prefer Hanlon’s Razor:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor* Imagine a ‘Dream** Team’ of Polarik, techdude, Butterdezillion, LadysForest, and Miss Tickly… *shudder*** Nightmares are dreams, too, you know…

    I amagine they would have figured it was the president posting on his super-secret AOL account.

    Slarty’s project sounds interesting. Maybe the NSA would like to fund it-it could be applicable to jihadist websites also, I would think.

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