After the recounting of a great deal of irrelevant birther history, The Post & Email’s Sharon Rondeau gets to the point in a new article this week: “Are Forgeries Concealing a ‘Hidden’ Agenda?” The point comes from an interview with Mike Zullo about new guidance in federal regulations on the citizenship oath taken by new citizens, which allows them omit or modify the part about taking up arms in defense of the country. This is then tied by Zullo to his specious claim that Obama himself never registered for the Selective Service System. The new oath guidance, Zullo contends, shows Obama’s long-time attitude towards defending (or rather not defending) the country.
I left my reply at the P&E (currently in moderation):
The new guidance on the oath of allegiance brings it in line with the rights and obligations of EVERY American. Natural born citizens have the option of being conscientious objectors. Why should we treat naturalized citizens differently?
As for the goofy idea that Obama never registered for the Selective Service, I just point out that the document Mike Zullo claims is faked (and Zullo has zero expertise in document fraud) was obtained from the Selective Service Administration UNDER THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, and Obama was duly registered in the agency’s computer system as verified by FOIA and the press independently.
Let us know if Sharon publishes it. She won’t publish any comments from me. Does she mention that there hasn’t been a draft in over 43 years and there won’t be one anytime soon? She is once again making a mountain out of an imaginary mole hill.
I commented under my real name, BTW.
It’s not just bringing it in line with the rights of natural born Americans, it’s making the policy for naturalized citizens uniform. Members of established religions could already modify the naturalization oath based on their convictions; that discrimination against non-believers has been illegal for years when it comes to actual conscientious objection to military service– even for aliens. The case that probably got this change made:
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/immigration/2013/06/us-government-relents-on-need-for-evidence-of-co-status-in-naturalization-case.html
And in more news from the excellent Immigrationprofblog, the case from Hell is going to the Supreme Court:
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/immigration/2016/06/breaking-news-supreme-court-to-review-derivative-citizenship-case-.html
Doc, my brother just sent me this link and I thought you would like it and maybe it should be archived for historical reference to where this insanity came from.
Talkin’ John Birch Paranoid Blues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AylFqdxRMwE
I was gonna post it in the open thread but for some reason I couldn’t do so.
Since this thread is about Zullo, this stanza is for him:
Well, I quit my job so I could work all alone
Then I changed my name to Sherlock Holmes
Followed some clues from my detective bag
And discovered they wus red stripes on the American flag!
That ol’ Betsy Ross . . .
Not surprising, the P&E’s article was reposted at Birther Report (its first “new” article in over a week).
I like Zullo’s appeal to authority that the “probable cause standard had been overcome.” If it has been “overcome,” then why hasn’t a judge issued a search warrant?
“Hmmm.”
“We ran into the stonewall in the state of Hawaii, where they hid behind their state statute, stopping us from going in and getting an eyeball, hands-on look at the birth certificate and have the actual witness, Dr. Onaka, who purportedly stamped it, vouch for it. We were not permitted access to Onaka; even though he was in the building and knew who we were and why we were there, he refused to speak with us.” Kommandant , Mike Zullo
“Where they hid behind their state statute….”
Mikey has learned to disrespect the letter of the law, just like his boss, who was found in contempt of court for continuing to detain people without probable cause that a crime had been committed. It seems none of these nincompoops have a clue about what they’re doing, let alone how probable cause works.
And bob, you’re spot on!
Somehow two lines from Kipling’s famous Epitaph come to mind:
I could not dig: I dared not rob:
Therefore I lied to please the mob.
From the guy who hid behind the Fifth Amendment.
“As for the goofy idea that Obama never registered for the Selective Service, I just point out that the document Mike Zullo claims is faked (and Zullo has zero expertise in document fraud) was obtained from the Selective Service Administration UNDER THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, and Obama was duly registered in the agency’s computer system as verified by FOIA and the press independently.”
“was obtained from the Selective Service Administration UNDER THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION” meaning, of course, that the Bush Administration was much more honest than the Obama administration ,and therefore the document must be true?
“and Obama was duly registered in the agency’s computer system as verified by FOIA and the press independently”
Verification of registration says nothing about validity of document, as there is no attestation of the document, and the document states that identification of applicant was not completed!
And how can the press verify the document unless they have access to the registration. As the document was for a person who was located in Hawaii, the files were kept on file in the Hawai’ian selective service offices.
Government files are not sacrosanct, are they?
Just consider the email problems facing the state department today.
Or consider the archive information snuck out of the archives by Sandy Berger.
😆 Excellent!
But that’s not what I said, is it? I said that the press verified his registration in the SSS computer system. There are some things that follow logically. If there is a registration on file with a government agency, then it follows that the registration was filed. The registration was timely because the agency records show the registration date. I remind you that this was the Bush administration, which had no motivation to produce a fake document in support of Obama.
Against this is the ludicrous claim that a postmark image of a rubber stamp that is not 100% clear proves forgery. Any stamp collector (and I am one) can tell you that missing parts of postmarks are extremely common.
Now if you want to accept agenda-driven inexpert opinion over documentation from a neutral government agency, go ahead, but I reserve the right to call such a thing goofy.
Goofy describes Birther reasoning most of the time. Birthers demand pristine documents when in fact many if not most real documents that are produced frequently are not pristine. The SS registration is an example. The Bates stamp is old. We know that because it used the abbreviation “USPO” which had been out of date five years by 1980. This makes perfect sense since Hawaii is a remote location and it’s extremely likely they would have continued to use a perfectly good Bates stamp for cancellations. A forger would have most likely used a stamp that had the current “USPS” abbreviation for the postal service.
Likewise the worn out signature “TXE” stamp on the LFBC is another example that in the real world stamps wear and over inking occurs. If anything these are signs of authenticity rather than forgery.
So you’re basically saying we should never use any documents ever stored with any government offices in the US ever for anything. That documents can’t be trusted and Jack/Helen should be the vetter of all candidates.
Based upon your conception of logic, how can any employer trust the e-verify system for ensuring that an employee has a genuine Social Security Number? Should employers also be required to examine the employee’s original SS-5, to make sure that the signatures match?
To my knowledge, there has never been a case of the Selective Service System database showing a Selective Service registration for a person who never registered. So why would any sane person question the accuracy of its database?
And the point of mentioning the Bush Administration is not to say that it was more honest than the Obama Administration, rather that if there was anything irregular about Obama’s Selective Service registration it would have been politically advantageous for the Bush Administration to make an issue of it.
Zullo used professional and retired govt. document experts. As far as the Bush admin. Zullo got this while obama was in office, not Bush. Don’t you think obama had all of that stuff fixed?
Rickey: Logic before a birther equals pearls before swine.
In other words: birth certificate redux. Government records were designed and implemented for the very purpose of not requiring attestation every single time (birther complaints notwithstanding).
Irregularities do occasionally occur, but the burden is on the accuser to show an irregularity occurring in any particular instance.
Who? Which “experts” did Zullo use? Name names, please.
And? Why is it relevant when Zullo crafted his fantasies? The Selective Service System (under Bush) verified that its records showed that President Obama had duly registered.
Sorry, but you’re not entitled to your own version of history. First of all, we were discussing this ON THIS BLOG in December of 2009, which is before Obama became president and that was based on a document published by Debbie Schlussel November 13, 2008. This is the story of the “retired federal agent” who obtained the registration via the Freedom of Information Act. I can’t tell you when Zullo got a copy of this document from the Selective Service, but what he got is the same thing that Schlussel published BEFORE Obama became president.
As for the retired federal agent’s (Jeffrey Stephen Coffman) analysis of the document, it fell apart under scrutiny. Let me give you one example. This from the retired federal agent’s report:
So here we have someone attempt to speak in an authoritative way, based solely on some regulations he looked up, not because of any expertise with postal cancellations. In fact the old USPO cancellation was in WIDESPREAD use in 1980 as proven by numerous examples, INCLUDING THOSE REPRESENTED AS AUTHENTIC by Mike Zullo.
Fast forward to Zullo. Almost all of the retired federal agent’s arguments (which had been shot down years before) were missing from Zullo’s book about his investigation and the Selective Service document. He needed something, new and that new argument rested on the claim that the “80” in the stamp was upside down because a real 1980 post office date stamp is a controlled item, and the forger could’t get a real one and had to cut off part of a 2008 stamp and invert it. That argument went down in flames when I found a set of official post office date slugs, including one from 1980, on eBay. These items are easy to get from dealers of postal memorabilia. And a quick examination shows that the stamp isn’t upside down anyway. Zullo in his report, which he CLAIMS was supported by some unnamed retired postal employee that Zullo never names and never quotes, even misspelled the date slug as PIKA instead of PICA (“Pica” may refer to both a font and a 10-pitch character spacing). In fact, I even had a set of Pica font numbers in my desk drawer from an old rubber stamp kit I have.
Sorry, but ALL of this has been debunked by careful research, and those making the claims have proven nothing but their own bias, incompetence and complete and utter lack of expertise.
And to the shock of no one: Doc’s comment still remains hidden in moderation at Rondeau’s site.
Doc,
” I can’t tell you when Zullo got a copy of this document from the Selective Service, but what he got is the same thing that Schlussel published BEFORE Obama became president.”
This seems vaguely familiar. Didn’t Zullo lift the information from Schlussel off the internet and didn’t it create a conflict of some sort for Zullo?
That does sound vaguely familiar; however, the “inverted 08” claim that was the centerpiece of the Zullo/Corsi book does not appear in the Schlussel report.
Later, the retired investigator, Jeffrey Stephen Coffman, published an affidavit for Orly Taitz AFTER the Zullo book, and that affidavit includes the exactly claim by Zullo. I presume that Coffman is the plagiarist here.
I covered the Coffman affidavit in 2013:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2013/01/new-old-attack-on-obamas-selective-service-registration/
So much fun looking back at birther comments from way back when.
Here is the link to Debbie Schlussel’s November 13th, 2008 website.
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/4428/exclusive-did-next-commander-in-chief-falsify-selective-service-registration-never-actually-register-obamas-draft-registration-raises-serious-questions/
The registration card was received by Coffman in October, 2008 (copy of the letter from SSS is on the Schlussel website).
~snip~
Just a minor nitpick, but I believe this text and immediately below it was written by Debbie Schlussel, not Coffman. The extracts from his report are indented and immediately prefaced by a statement such as, “As the retired federal agent notes, …”
IIRC, Coffman’s first affidavit for Taitz in 2009 doesn’t mention the missing 19 or inverted 08. That came in his 2013 affidavit.
Wow, you didn’t research anything did you? You invented facts and then threw out unsubstantiated allegations. Two can play that game. What about the affair you had with your neighbor’s underage daughter? I don’t have any proof but I think it happened. I read it somewhere.
Well, I know someone personally who said she actually WALKED IN on Don and his neighbor’s underage daughter in an extremely comprising position (I could print the girl’s name, but she was underage, so…).
So there you have it. IRON CLAD PROOF!
.
.
.
[Of course, this is the kind of stupid BS crap birthers like Don have been doing against Obama, and even against honest people who call them on their nonsense, for the past 7 years.]
Exactly Pete. It’s amazing how these unfounded accusations suddenly become vile when they are turned around.
I am still waiting for just one Birther to apologize for making such silly false allegations and telling lies. It’s been eight years so I am not expecting them to break their perfect record of childish behavior. .
Curiously just a couple of hours ago I was reading the deuterocanonical part of the Book of Daniel (Daniel and Suzanna) which is about a false accusation of adultery brought by a couple of Judges against a pure and virtuous woman.
Zullo is scheduled to be on Gallups’ show tomorrow.
Zullo hasn’t stated who he supposedly used. No he just used birther claims and recycled them. The selective service was obtained by birthers during the Bush administration.
So when is Zullo going to tell us the results of the international forensic laboratory analysis of the Obama birth certificate PDF?
I have one think to say to Mike Zullo:
“The truth will set you free.”
Yes, as I recall it was a staggering 164 times that “Lt.” Mikey hid behind the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.
Maybe, just maybe the phony Lt. will explain to Honorary Special MCSO Deputy Carl Gallups who the persons of interest are associated with the alleged forged birth certificate that he mentioned in his March 1, 2012 press conference and why his discovering probable cause has not led to criminal indictments. (It must be reelection time for Shurf Joe.)
Indeed. It’s what would’ve been the next line of defense in birther lore if ever a court had examined the vault BC and declared it legit – the claim that just because it’s on a document, it doesn’t mean it’s true and therefore we need more confirmations of confirmations of confirmations.
Sharon has her censorship button activated. Mustn’t allow the birther drones to read the truth. Such a loser!
This was posted over at the Post & Email (excerpt).
“A national movement led by LT Zullo and Sheriff Arpaio and Carl Gallups must secure signatures from a sufficient number of Constitutional American citizens (sign me up!)to demand Soetoro-Obama turn himself over to prison authorities for prosecution.”
What planet did this guy come from? It makes me think of a Three Stooges comedy. Which one is Moe, which one is Larry and which one is Curly?
Actually, to correct myself, Zullo hid behind the Fifth Amendment, 224 times. Probably a record for volunteer in Joe’s posse.
Realist also suggested this (elsewhere): It’s time again for birthers to open their wallets.
“Trader, you’re skilled at one thing, at least: dragging red herrings across the trail.
Unauthorized removal of documents, or mishandling of official e-mails says nothing about whether a document might be a fake.
Man up and address Doc’s point that it’s very common for stamps to bear incomplete postmarks.
Or his point about the draft card document verification came during the Bush administration.”
Imprints are liable to be disfigured, but the postal stamp that is used manually is seldom different to such a degree!
I have never seen one that misstated the year by elimination of the first two digits..
But, I can visualize the necessity of elimination of the first two digits if you have a 21st century hand stamp, and have to create a 20th century stamp to fake a document.
And, I have never seen a signature after the PO receives the document and stamped it received.
Oh, wait, the postal clerk stamped it received and then noticed that it was not signed and called the applicant back next day to have it properly signed,
That explains it, doesn’t it?
Outside of the fact that the applicant was residing at Occidental College in California for the school years of 1979-1981.
wait, wait, wait, the applicant was on scholarship and simply used some to the money to fly to Honolulu to spend time with the family, and then flew back to the mainland. Wealthy family I guess.
No identification made of applicant? because clerk knew him, I guess, or the applicant was not carrying id, or it was just dropped off and left in a drop box outside the postoffice.
but it must be correct, because it was accepted by the government and they would never accept a wrong application , would they? And there is never any errors of filing documents in the government are there?
So,just ignore all of the above comments as they could not possibly be true as Wikipedia is never wrong
Bullshit.
For God’s sake people, learn how to format your posts. If you’re replying to someone, take their text and put it in bold. Or italics. Or blockquote tags. Do SOMETHING to differentiate it from your content.
Which comment to me just highlights the general ungodliness of birthers’ behavior over the past 8 years.
I’m not at all sure about that. I think the truth could result in a conspicuous lack of freedom for Joe Arpaio in particular, and perhaps Mr. Zullo as well.
Eloquently spoken, sir.
OMG, a college student went home during the summer break. The Horror. This calls for impeachment.
You really are a numbskull.
It wouldn’t have been any more difficult or expensive for Obama to fly from L.A. to Honolulu than to fly from L.A. to New York.
LAX-Honolulu is a 5 hour, 50 minute flight.
LAX-JFK is a 5 hour, 30 minute flight.
Since Obama lived in a dormitory at Occidental, he would had to find another place to live during the summer break if he decided to remain in California. It would have been less expensive for him to fly home and spend the summer at his grandparents’ house, so of course that is what he did. His registration form is dated July 30, 1980, right in the middle of the summer break, and he gave his grandparents’ address because that is where he was living.
Yeah that. Trader Jerk formats like Cody Judy. Have I mentioned how much I am glad he is gone?
Still waiting to hear from Trader Jack on this part.
The Director of the Selective Service System in 2008 was William A. Chatfield, a Bush appointee and former Marine who had served in various positions in the Reagan Administration. He also co-owned a lobbying firm with former Republican Congressman Tom Kindness of Ohio. If there was anything irregular about Obama’s registration, Chatfield was in a position to make it an issue.
Similarly, Republican Linda Lingle was the governor of Hawaii in 2008 and a strong supporter of John McCain. She could have sabotaged Obama’s campaign by casting doubt about his birth in Hawaii, but she never wavered from insisting that he was born in Honolulu.
Birthers have never been able to give a plausible rationale for why those two staunch Republicans, both of whom were in a position to know, never questioned the validity of Obama’s birth certificate or his Selective Service registration.
Although I suppose it’s possible that neither Lingle nor Chatfield has the incisive inquiring mind of Trader Jack/Helen…Naah.
YOu post opinions and I post ways in which your opinion might be wrong
afte
thesis and antithesis is normally in discussions.
Can you explain any possible way that the signature could have been one day after the receipt of the document by the post office.?
Can you think of any way that the document could have been accepted with out the clerk asking for identification?
I think that individual was on a full scholarship that did not require him to give up his room, which I believe was on the campus and not off-campus.
apparently, from reports , the individual being written of, was a campus playboy , in high school, and college in LA. where the opportunity for spending money was good, and , perhaps he did fly back and forth , if someone was paying his way, but , as evidence for his penury you might look at the life he lead at Columbia, and even in Occidental he had a room-mate.
“Natural born Citizens have to fight [in wars], whereas foreign-born citizens don’t.”
Mike Zullo (from the P&E article).
Inspector Zoolow gets it wrong again. Doc got it right. Inspector Zoolow forgets about the Americans who were conscientious objectors who refused to fight based on religious or moral grounds during the Korean War or the Vietnam War.
I still say, another Inspector Zoolow book is still a very real possibility.
I wrote a blog post that contained several examples of postal stamp cancellations with a two digit year. They aren’t heard to find.
https://rcradioblog.wordpress.com/2013/07/06/helping-kommandante-zullo-once-more/
In other words, a litany of the usual birther logical fallacies: Your speculation is not evidence; possibility is not probability.
Never forget that, according to Lyin’ Carl, zoolow is the Country’s foremost authority on Presidential eligibility. How dare we, as ordinary people, challenge anything he says or does?
I post facts and opinions. You just make stuff up and treat it like fact. That’s not normal discussion.
There you go, making things up again.
Colleges typically do not keep their dormitories open during the summer recess. Depending upon the colleges, they might keep one dormitory open during the summer to accommodate the small number of students who are attending summer sessions. When colleges do allow students to live in a dormitory during the summer, they don’t get to live there for free – they have to pay, just as they pay during the regular school year.
Did you ever live in a college dormitory? Just about everyone who lived in a dormitory had a roommate. That is the way college dormitories typically are configured, two students to a room. So naturally Obama had a roommate at Occidental, just as every other student living in his dormitory had a roommate.
99% of college students go home for the summer. You seem to be obsessed with convincing yourself, without a shred of evidence, that Obama was an exception to the rule. But then you don’t need evidence when you are making things up.
trader jack = CRJ. Yes? No?
They are not the same individual but they share one brain. Trader Jack has the cerebellum and CRJ has the Medulla Oblongata.
If only they could find a functioning cerebrum.
Fly? Maybe not. But its a heck of a lot easier to hitchhike from L.A. to New York than L.A. to Hawai’i.
I am thinking, no, he did not get near any college. Then again, he could be making up stuff regardless of any reality he previously experienced.
This leaves him with the choice of being a complete idiot or unrepentant liar. I’ll be nice and let him decide which he wants to be.
I don’t think Mike Zullo and the truth have been in contact for many a year.
I have been embarrassing Rambo Ike over at BR of late. He claimed he had never seen proof that Obama was in Hawaii during the summer of 1980. He also used a quote from David Maraniss’ biography, Barack Obama:The Story.
However had Rambo bothered to read the chapter called “Mainland” he would have found these quotes:
and this
Rambo had assumed that classes had started by September 4, 1980 (which happened to be the Thursday after Labor Day). However, I pointed out that many colleges where on a schedule where classes began later in September usually around the third week. I went to a university that was on the quarter system and never started Fall quarter earlier than mid September.
I have been able to verify that Oxy was on something called a three semester system then but have not found an academic calendar for 1980. I believe a three semester system is one where there are a Fall, Winter and Spring semesters usually about 10 weeks each. This is similar to the quarter system if not identical. The point is that Oxy classes could very well have started after September 4.
Most schools (mine alma mater included) have gone to the two semester calendar with classes beginning in late August. I think this has been driven a lot by college football schedules that over the last 20 years or so have opened opened with earlier games around Labor Day.
Zullo’s recent Gallups interview is available at YouTube.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?ebc=ANyPxKqQjsMweLGPL5gclh9fXZ7RbB-PBxFC8MACEsIfP712Va9lZ61ao2j4-LUztW82rkJN3URGrU1edOblKlg8fTgiKmWDsQ&v=V2-egi88poQ
He basically pleads the fifth.
All of this speculation about where Obama was on a particular date or what the stamp on the form looks like is totally beside the point. WE KNOW FOR A FACT THAT OBAMA REGISTERED AS REQUIRED. We know this without looking at his registration document. How, trader jack asks? Simple.
1. We know the President received federal student aid. How do we know this? Because several years ago, shortly after he took office, some people who worked at the federal student loan data center were busted for hacking into his records. Those records wouldn’t exist unless he had gotten federal student loans.
2. Those student loans require that you have registered for the draft if you are required to (males of eligible age). That was the case in the 1980s as well. When you file a FAFSA to apply for college aid, it’s cross-checked with the draft registration database. This is a fact.
3. By the rules of logic, since Barack Obama got federal student aid, he must have registered for the draft as required.
Logic, jack, logic. No postal stamp needed.
Of course you are correct but you have to remember when dealing with Birthers like Dumbo Ike logic isn’t their strong suit and as a matter of fact it’s not even in their decks.
Nevertheless, I would like to hear from a birther an explanation of how Obama got federal student loans if he hadn’t registered for the draft at the time. Is their case that Ronald Reagan knew this 20-year old kid from Hawai’i was going to grow up to be a President and decided to give him a hand and let the rules slide? Come on birthers, let’s hear from you.
PS-Should I revive my $100 challenge if you can satisfy me, using your very own Birther standards, that Drumpf was not born in Scotland?
https://nygoe.wordpress.com/2009/11/17/barack-obama-sighting-hawaii-1980/
Why of course he was in Hawaii as confirmed by the Marine who saw him there,
As you must believe what you read about on the web.
He met and talked to him, didn’t he?
Oh, you won’t believe this Marine, as he does not conform to your belief.
” I am making nothing up here, except maybe a few words to keep a written dialog in readable form, but I believe I met Barak Obama in Hawaii in 1980 in Honolulu .”
“Though Obama received a scholarship to attend Occidental College, the money ran out after his freshman year. He paid the rest of his undergraduate tuition through loans and assistance from his family.
Michelle Obama took out loans to pay for college at Princeton University and Harvard University as well. The Obamas carried these debts for the first 25 years of their marriage.
The president and the first lady also racked up $40,000 each attending Harvard Law School. Including undergraduate loans, the Obamas owed a combined $120,000 after college.”
No where does it say they were federal loans that I can see
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/27/its-personal-obamas-carried-120000-student-loan-debt-for-decades/#ixzz4DQIVVNxT
Actually I went to cal Berkeley and graduated in 1949, in poly sci and
economics, But I was married and lived off campus in Oakland. BA and nothing more.
Rickey: Did you ever live in a college dormitory?
I am thinking, no, he did not get near any college. Then again, he could be making up stuff regardless of any reality he previously experienced.
And I noticed that they did not say USPO or USPS, but it was a good posting and well done.
Hey, it is all moot! He would have been registers as a 4-c status as he was a dual national based upon his Kenyan father and American mother,
And he might not have had to do any military service anyway.
no one has inquired, that I know of, as to his actual draft status.
I am a 4 a draft status, though exempt from draft for age. still carry my draft card in my wallet.
Mr. Bancroft’s story changed over time. Even if Bancroft didn’t make it all up out of whole cloth, one could not expect him to remember details 30 years later and be certain that the kid didn’t say that his father was Kenyan rather than he was born in Kenya. It’s a very weak bit of testimony, and it is contradicted by the State of Hawaii that, after all, has Obama’s birth certificate, the gold standard source for the facts of birth.
Now here the skilled propagandist would use the false analogy of Andrew D. Basiago to prejudice the reader against anecdotal testimony in general. But that does make the point that folks really do make stuff up.
While we’re on the topic, I’ll point out my article “Birther witnesses” that lists a number of individuals who testify to relevant anecdotes. This blog covered all that stuff.
trader jack:
1. “Can you explain any possible way that the signature could have been one day after the receipt of the document by the post office.?
2. “Can you think of any way that the document could have been accepted with out the clerk asking for identification?”
Answers:
1. Have you ever written the wrong date or year on a check or other document? It happens.
2. I filled out the Selective Service form, also not providing any ID. Obviously, there are a boxes to check for ID, and No ID. Where does it say on the form that it won’t be accepted without providing ID?
Zoo-Low is fighting another imaginary phantom.
The problem is credibility. Loren Collins destroyed Race Bannon’s.
http://barackryphal.blogspot.com/2011/08/jim-racebannon-bancroft-birtherisms.html
I am convinced that Birthers order straw men by the gross. It’s their favorite logical fallacy.
DES MOINES, Iowa — Nine people were indicted Wednesday on federal charges of accessing President Barack Obama’s student loan records while they were employed for a Department of Education contractor in Iowa.
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2010/may/12/9-indicted-on-charges-of-accessing-obama-records/
They accessed files that record federally-guaranteed student loans at the Department of Education. If Obama had no federally-guaranteed loans, there would be no file to access.
When you file a FAFSA to get a student loan you must check a box that says you registered for the draft if you were required to. The data is cross-checked with Selective Service. If Obama had not been registered his loan would have been denied. Thus HE WAS REGISTERED. Surely even one as dense as you can see that. What is your problem jack?
Dual nationality is irrelevant. In fact you have to register even if you are not a US citizen, but only a Permanent Resident.
And the draft was gone by the time Obama turned 18. There has not been one at any point in his adult life. Did you not know that? Again, what is your problem?
So, he had no classification. When my son registered he heard nothing ever back from them. They don’t classify you because there IS NO DRAFT.
A couple of points of information I would like to have are what years did Barack Obama have student loans and has draft registration always been a requirement for males applying for loans? I honestly don’t know.
Obama enrolled at Oxy in the autumn of 1979 and registered in 1980 after the draft registration had been reinstated by President Carter. Registration might not have been required for a loan at Oxy but could have been for a loan at Columbia.
I had a national defense student loan for the first two years of college but I don’t recall what the requirements were. I had registered for the draft at my post office when I turned 18 during my senior year of high school. I am older than President Obama.
Zullo says it was not uncommon for the registrants not to provide ID.
You know I was thinking the other day that Zullo has morphed from a fake detective into a fake political pundit.
Thank you.
The requirement for draft registration dates from 1983 http://www.nytimes.com/1983/02/01/science/education-law-tying-draft-registration-to-loans-challenged.html?pagewanted=all
The law was challenged at the Supreme Court and was ruled constitutional in 1984.
Obama had loans for Harvard Law which would have been well after that date and he would have been denied them if he hadn’t been registered.
Thank you. The article said that the draft registration provision went into effect on July 1, 1983. I like to have all the facts on things like this and you filled in the gaps.
Absolutely, but never after turning in the applicable form at the counter.
s\
So, you think that one blogger who is discussing his life experience is not to be believed as another blogger posted something different,and you don’t see how that might be biased one way or the other?
“Alien or Dual National: An alien is a person who is not a citizen of the United States. A dual national is a person who is a citizen of the United States and another country. They are defined in four classes”
“Dual national: The person is a citizen of both the United States and another country at the same time. The country must be one that allows its citizens dual citizenship and the registrant must be able to obtain and produce the proper papers to affirm this status.[53]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_System#Alien_or_dual-national_registrant_status
What is interesting is that I can see not information on the document in question as to whether or not the man is a alien, national, or citizen, so I will assume , perhaps wrongly, that they do not know that at the time of registration.
So, perhaps, when you get your draft registration card, which you are required to have in your possession, it will tell you what your classification is.
“When registration was resumed in 1980, the matter of issuing some type of “draft card” was carefully studied. Based on previous experience, the decision was made to issue a Registration Acknowledgment to registrants as evidence of their registration and not to require that the proof of registration be carried.
With the passage of the Solomon Amendment linking registration to federal student aid, the Workforce Investment Act making registration a requirement for receiving training benefits, the Thurmond Amendment requiring registration as a prerequisite for appointment to federal employment, and numerous provisions in connection with local employment standards, it became evident that many registrants might need proof of registration in a form which was convenient to carry. Therefore, the Registration Acknowledgment was modified in 1983 so that all personal information about the registrant would be printed in a wallet-size box. The registrant may detach and carry it in his wallet if he wishes, as a convenience to him, but he is not required to do so.
So, even the President was issued a Registration Acknowledgement,
Do you have one?
The application for the Illinois Board of Admissions to the Bar has this statement,
“I authorize the Illinois Board of Admissions to the Bar and/or any Character and Fitness Committee to obtain any information from my official record on file with the Selective Service System”
I do not know whether you cannot think rationally, or whether you’re intentionally using rhetorical tricks to try to mislead someone. Maybe you think birthers read this blog a lot (and who knows about that).
Stacking up Collins against Bancroft is a false comparison. The controversy is Bancroft against the facts. Loren Collins only recounts the facts and how Bancroft’s story doesn’t fit them. The two damning things against Bancroft are 1) his Obama story grew in the telling and 2) his G. Gordon Liddy’s son story was a fabrication. Yet to be investigated is whether Bancroft ever was stationed in Mombasa as he claimed. I mean, why would a US service man be stationed in Mombasa? Hint: the US embassy is in Nairobi.
So?
What you are missing, from your own Wikipedia article, is that once the draft ended, no one was classified anything. The ones shown for 1980-present are projected categories in case there were a draft. So, if you;re hoping you would find the President classed as 4-C, you would not, because no one in his cohort was classed anything at all.
There’s no place on the draft registration form to indicate nationality. I don’t have any evidence that Barack Obama even knew of his dual nationality prior to his losing it.
trader jack,
“Absolutely, but never after turning in the applicable form at the counter.”
It’s entirely believable that he signed on the 29th thinking it was the 30th. Wait until you get older and don’t recall at dinner what you had for breakfast. Do you have any evidence that he signed the document after he turned it into the PO?
You obviously didn’t read Loren’s article. The facts of Bannon story were shown to be false. So he changed his story to fit the new set of facts.
You just refuted your own argument.
If Obama’s scholarship ran out after his freshman year, he wouldn’t have been entitled to remain in his dormitory room under your imaginary “scholarship = free room and board for the summer” theory.
What is the relevance of any of this?
Evidence that Obama registered for the draft is in the public domain. His registration form exists. It is confirmed that he is in the database at the very least because of the fact of his student loans. That is what it means to be ‘registered’. Anything to do with changing forms or changing registration requirements are totally irrelevant to anything what-so-ever. Either he is registered or he isn’t. The fact is: he has satisfied the Selective Service registration requirements and is duly and correctly registered.
End of story.
The Selective Service systems knows all about him and could, if the need had arisen in the past have drafted him, and, if the need arises in the future, draft him.
Congratulations to you for having kept your worthless piece of paper from the Draft Board that helps you remember your personal details in your dotage. WGAS?
Not only have I lost my Draft Card from 1969 (no, I didn’t burn it, and yes, I was, for a time 1A and could have been drafted, but my birthday didn’t come up), but I can’t find my Social Security card either (and yes I have the number memorized and have had no problems dealing with the SSA over the last 35 years that it has been lost).
Jack/Helen fails to comprehend that when the draft ended, there was no point in classifying anyone. There were no longer any exemptions, and no one was subject to be drafted, so what would be the point of classifying individuals?
Selective Service would not have cared if Obama was a citizen, a dual citizen, or a permanent resident, because it made no difference. All three categories of males are required to register.
And you think that either one has any relevance what-so-ever to President Obama’s Selective Service status?
It’s also possible that Obama had the correct date and the postal clerk forgot to change the date on the stamp.
I tossed my draft card after I enlisted in the Navy in 1966. I didn’t see any point in keeping it.
I may still have my Social Security Card somewhere, but I have never needed to show it to anyone. Besides, it is unwise to carry it around because of identity theft concerns.
I was about to begin my fourth year in the Navy so I paid no attention to the draft lottery. I looked it up recently and discovered that my birth date was #124, so I would have been drafted. The highest number to be drafted from the first lottery was #195.
the draft reg is the most compelling anomaly to me still.
I narrowly avoided the draft via the clever tactic of being born 6 years after the Vietnam War ended. You guys should have tried that.
I adeptly got a high lottery number but the war was also winding down by then.
Exactly.
But , hey, If the FBI says it is ok to break the laws , if you did not intend to break the law, anything goes today.
Been an interesting discussion, but I am now content to just hide my head in the sand to not see anymore crap from the media.
That was good planning on your part!
Anything is possible I suppose except that a forger would make that mistake.
What’s the anomaly? A poor impression of a postal stamp? If that’s the best you got, you got nothing (which I already knew).
Loren Collins talks about anomalies in his book, Bullspotting. The problem with pretty much everything birther is that they do not offer a competing hypothesis in contrast to the standard view that could be weighed and critiqued. All they have are so-called anomalies. For example, I have never seen a birther offer a hypothesis about Obama’s Selective Service registration that fits the facts that are known.
scott e finds the anomaly “compelling” but I don’t even know what it means to find an anomaly compelling. My mother’s middle name is misspelled on my hospital birth certificate. That’s an anomaly. What does it mean to say that it is compelling?
It is an inescapable fact that a forger would have had to have had samples of real registrations in order to fake one. If all legitimate registrations have visible 4-digit years, then a forger would have to have noticed that the year has 4 digits. Having a rubber stamp made is trivial, and Zullo’s claim to the contrary is plain silly. If anything, the missing century on the document is proof of authenticity, since no faker would have made such a mistake.
(Note: anyone trying to make that argument in favor of the Lucas Smith POSFKBC because of the bum date format falls down because of the fact that no one has ever found a birth certificate from Kenya that looks like that one, so Smith most likely didn’t have any exemplar to go on.)
The intent requirement is the same for everyone, and has been for ages going back to the English Common Law. The error in your comment is the last word, “today.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
I did it by being born on a date with a high lottery number.
Compelling how? The entire thing is ridiculous, since failure to register for the draft has essentially never been prosecuted and the statute of limitations has long elapsed in Obama’s case. And that thing about barred from federal employment doesn’t apply to elected offices. The Supreme Court has ruled that there can be no requirements put on elected federal offices beyond those in the Constitution.
So, if Obama had in fact neglected to register, rather than forging a document as you wish to believe he could simply say, “I thought I did. Who remembers what they did 30 years ago? But, if I didn’t, I’m sorry for the error.” It’s no big deal, since there was no draft.
On the other hand, Trump got excused when there really was a draft on the basis of “bone spurs” supposedly and then said avoiding STDs was “just like being in Vietnam”. Now that’s compelling!!!
And now please explain how Obama got student loans if he hadn’t registered.
It’s odd how some of these people will accept, without question, an unverified document from somebody convicted of forgery yet declare an “anomaly” on a document from the government to be compelling reasons to suspect fraud, even as they have never seen more than one or two similar documents.
I think that LDS has a 1963 Kenyan birth certificate that’s exactly matches the 1961 one, but , of course, everyone says it is just another forgery by LDS. I saw it on his blog and the registration stamp was the same with a different director signature, but the signature has similar handwriting, but the director’s name was different. the stamp was in a similar but different postion
but who knows what the truth is about them.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/215159839/1963-2014-certified-copy-coast-province-general-hospital-mombasa-british-protectorate-of-kenya-birth-certifica
1963 copy!
Really? So the collective birthers’ lack of a functioning brain isn’t a compelling anomaly?
You’ve never written a check before and got the wrong date? Or put down the wrong date?
I had the same problem. My mother’s maiden name is misspelled on my birth certificate. According to birthers it must be fake.
My eye color was wrong on my ID card many years ago. Obviously a forgery, so I must be a foreign citizen.
My bank mixed me up with my father several times. Obviously I’m a fraudster and/or identify thief.
They also had a procuration listed on my account, for a person I’ve never heard of. Obviously my foreign donors, or one of the many aliases I use for nefarious purposes. (I actually believe it was attempted fraud, but my bank contact swears the procuration was never active and over 10 years old so they have no idea how it got listed in the first place…)
According to the birthers, mistakes never happen. Interestingly, though, every birther legal filing is riddled with them….
Mine too.
One thing I have never seen is the other side of the card. Is it possible that it was a mail in card, and the other side would have the stamp or franking mark, to show when it was mailed?
that would help to explain the date thing to some extent.
No, the fact is a Honolulu round stamp on it , would indicate that it was local. So it must have been walked into the post office.
Some of you mock the SSS. but I saw what happened in 1939 when the kids in high school got called up notices.
“The first Guard unit called to active duty–15 months before the attack on Pearl Harbor–was the 251st Coast Artillery Regiment from Southern California, which was sent to Hawaii in November, 1940, and later became the first Guard unit to fire shots in World War II.”
Thinking back on it , the selection date must have be in the 18 year age
I have no reason to think it was a card, mail-in or otherwise. The date cancellation is there to show the date that the person registered.
This is a problem for elections in South Carolina. We search for voters by name. There was a big stink about dead voters voting, but the main cause of this was the deceased father being recorded as voting instead of the living son with the same name. In fact, no dead voters were actually found.
A document by a putative forger does not substantiate another document produced by the same person. That is, the second document adds nothing to the discussion. WorldNetDaily reported that the LDS certificate did not look like authentic Kenyan certificates. Now if ANY of the Smith documents had provenance or could be independently verified, it would be another story.
And there is also the fact that it looks like the Smith certificate was done in the True Type Garamond font. http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/01/one-more-observation-on-the-posfkbc/
Paul Irey, self-proclaimed typography expert said that Obama’s birth certificate was done with text from several different typewriters; however, he couldn’t identify any of them, and no birther has ever reproduced an Obama-like birth certificate forgery from scratch. I, however, was able to match the text on the Smith certificate with a remarkable degree of precision using a common Windows font, True Type Garramond.
Separated at birth?
Throughout college on my taxes and school forms they kept getting my middle initial wrong as an L because my penmanship sucks and they thought my C was an L. So I must have forged everything. They also had a social security mismatch because they misread one of the numbers I wrote.
Who the F cares?
Here’s Lucas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik1nnb7PVoE
Do you always accept, without question, the claim of wanted convicted felons? You must be a magnet for con men.
What dont you get about this? The smith forgery has no provenance. A second document produced years later by the same convicted forger does nothing to verify the first forgery.
In eighties, that is how many of us registered. We went to our local post office, filled out the form and that was that. If I received some later acknowledgement card, it is either buried in some box or lost to time.
There was no draft and with a fully professional force, one was not expected anytime soon. We did our registration thing and thought nothing more.
The only time I ever thought about it later was when I had to attest on some form that I did register for the draft (financial aid, among others).
Times change. Things are different than the 40s and 50s. Even my 100 year old next week grandmother knows that. I could just imagine her and her sister’s reaction to your statements. They would not be kind.
I don’t even remember going to the post office. I thought I just mailed the card in and that was it.
He used to post here, but he went away and hid after being repeatedly challenged to prove that he had ever been in Kenya. And it was established that the video which he claimed was shot in Kenya was actually shot in Santo Domingo.
He has an extensive criminal record which includes convictions for forgery, theft, and assault. So it’s pretty clear what the truth is about his supposed Kenya birth certificates.
Sheriff Arapio used two Selective Service records from men who registered at the same post office as Barack Obama in 1980. He said those records were “known-to-be-authentic Selective Service registration cards”.
The records were for Bruce Henderson and Darrell Oniwa. Here are their records:
Barack Obama – Jul 29 1980, DLN – 0897 080 632, SS 61-1125539-1, DOB 8/4/61
Darrell Oniwa – Jul 31 1980, DLN – 0897 080 653, SS 61-1125556-5, DOB 12/3/61
Bruce Henderson – Aug 2 1980, DLN – 0897 080 613, SS 61-1125522-7, DOB 08/25/61
So how do you explain the fact President Obama”s DLN and SS number are so close to two guys who definitely registered in 1980?
Nobody is mocking the Selective Service System. It actually does a good job, with close to 90% registration compliance each year.
On the other hand, you seem to believe that Selective Service has been complicit in perpetrating a fraud, so it would appear that you are the one who is being disrespectful.
Yes I remember every time we asked him to prove he went to Kenya he came back calling everyone homosexual. Lucas is a coward.
The thought crossed my mind once. I still have a hat almost identical to yours, but I don’t have a goatee anymore.
And he boasted about being an unrepentant pedophile and sex tourist.
Au contraire, I think that the clerks do the jobs they are hired to do, and do it well, but, just like any employee of a high ranked man, or politician, if the boss tells them to jump, they will jump the way the boss tells them to jump.
I worked 30 years for the State of California as a real estate senior appraiser, or property agent appraising house and I can affirm that the rank and file do what the heads of agencies tell them to do.
talked to personnel reps in personnel department , and they told me that they were instructed to figure out ways around the personnel rules rather than enforcing existing laws
Even in my department false documents were filed to get preferential treatment for people.
That is life in a governmental agency.
I have no idea how it occurred as I do not know what the -1,-5.-7mean on the shown numbers,
Perhaps if you can explain why the (-)numbers are added, it will show me I am wrong!
Was he on the plane to Orgy Island with Bill and the other visitors bound for minor sex trafficking?
Of course it has provenance, only you don’t believe the supplier of the provenance!
He says he went to Kenya, purchased it for cash, brought it back to the USA , and has never left his hands and still has it, and the 1963 one.
The validity of it is the same as the LFBC as it has the same certification of the document by the registrar’s stamp and signature.
You want the birther’s to prove the DOH bc was false , but you don’t want to prove the Kenyan was false, when they have the same certification standards.
You, just like the birthers, want to use your beliefs as the truth of the matter, and can not see that you both may be wrong.
You can not both be correct as neither of you have seen the original of both documents.
Every one wants their beliefs to be true, but no document expert has ever seen the original of either document.
Just let the sides have their own beliefs and forget the nonsense about posting derogatory terms about the people you don’t agree with.
There has been enough analysis of LFBC by both sides, and little or no analysis of the Kenyan LDS with the intent of proving it fake or real.
Fairness requires analysis of both sides by both sides of the question.
Any imperfections in the stamp would have been due to the Postal Service not SSS. As far as whether requiring registration for a non-existent draft makes sense, that’s up to Congress. I understand that they are now debating requiring women to register as well.
I believe that the point is that if there were a national emergency which required reinstating the draft, Selective Service always has an up to date database of men (and quite possibly women) who could be called up. Without that database it would be difficult to reinstate the draft in a timely fashion.
Except, someone registers at 18, probably at their parents’ address. If there were to be a draft when they are 25, they wouldn’t necessarily be that easy to find. There is no requirement to update addresses or other information.
I think if there were to be a draft, women should be included.
Well it’s a starting point. They have a name, which is something that could be cross referenced to a database that would be more up to date, such as perhaps DMV records. It’s not perfect but it’s better than having absolutely nothing.
But Selective Service most likely has that person’s Social Security Number, which makes it relatively easy to find someone. Selective Service probably would be able to cross-reference the SSN with the IRS.
Even if you find them you might have to extradite them from the foreign country they have fled to
Wait, that might have changed as you, apparently, need a passport to leave the country.
But a) the Kenyan certificate has been proven false and b) I haven’t a clue what you could possibly mean by “same certification standards.”
An official statement by three Hawaiian state officials is really not the same as the word of one convicted forger.
So explain to me again why George W. Bush would order Selective Service employees to vouch for a fake selective service application from Barack Obama right before the election?
But not every government employee will do that. There are whistleblowers. That’s why it’s so hard to keep a real conspiracy secret.
Those Social Security records would indicate age and gender, so they could do the job all by themselves, couldn’t they?
He could prove that very easily with a passport stamp, airline boarding pass, hotel/restaurant receipt, but has refused to.
I don’t think you understand what provenance means.
He’s never presented any proof he went to Kenya, ever.
No it is not. Not even in the slightest.
The POSFKBC has already been proven false. Have you not read this blog?
Little to no? In one version of reality? Lucas Smith’s nonsense has been picked apart pretty thoroughly.
You mean with Trump?
“I’ve known Jeff [Epstein] for fifteen years. Terrific guy, He’s a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it — Jeffrey enjoys his social life.” Donald Trump
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/n_7912/
BTW Trump and Epstein are currently being sued by a woman who claims that Trump had sex with her at Epstein’s island when she was 13.
Jesus Christ traderjack….. Do you seriously think that a document, created by a man CONVICTED OF FORGERY, is authentic? Do you consider that perhaps, because it was presented by a CONVICTED FORGER that it just may, perhaps, be a FORGERY?
That’s really just the least of the problems with Lucas Smith’s fake birth certificate.
I want to live in your world, where a document who’s authenticity is affirmed by multiple distinguished civil servants with long careers and clean criminal records are untrustworthy, but a convicted felon (convicted of forgery no less!) is trustworthy. Do you have kids? Do you hire convicted pedophiles to babysit them?
It’s rather pathetic that after eight years of birthing, someone like Jack/Helen is reduced to arguing that Lucas Smith’s forgery, which contains incorrect and misspelled names and a footprint which is much too large to be an infant’s, has provenance.
Oh, for heavens sake , folks,
“Provenance | Definition of Provenance by Merriam-Webster
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/provenance
Full Definition of provenance. 1 : origin, source. 2 : the history of ownership of a valued object or work of art or literature.”
the Kenyan bc is literature, the LFBC is literature, and the both have the same provenance.
A document was created by a state agency, certified by the state agency, handed to a consumer of the document, and the document is transported to a certain location, and remains there under control of consumer., the document has not left the control of the consumer and retains the same value as when purchased.
Birthers think the LFBC is fake, you folk think that the Kenyan bc is fake, and none of the people discussing the matter can prove either of them is true or false, as they have not seen the original. documents
Both have the same registration stamp and signature of the agency in question.
You claim that the Kenyan is fake, the birthers claim the LFBC is fake,
And you can not see that your beliefs affected you belief in either one.
You claim that there was only one Kenyan bc that LDS forged , and you claimed that there was not another one like it.
And then when he presented a different one you claimed it forged that one, and you make that claim without any evidence that the second one is forged as it does not have the same errors that you claim are in the first one.
Of course either one could be a fake, or true, but it would require more than my statement that they were true or fake, as it would not change anyone’s mind.
But try to be honest in you mind at least by admitting that the document examiners have never verified that the originals are true, and you don’t want to believe registrars unless they are in America.
When governments lie as it evident in the present political system how can you trust the government to tell the truth.
I don’t give a damn if they are both true , or both false, as it does not affect me in the slightest way.
A certification is not an authentication, and HDOH has never authenticated the original, and never will, as they did not create it.
http://federalevidence.com/blog/2012/july/foundation-admitting-documents-authentication-and-relevance
“There is a big difference between resolving whether a document sought to be admitted is what its proponent claims it is and resolving whether there is anything in the document that is true or false. The first issue is one of authentication, as treated by FRE 901 and FRE 902. The second issue must also be addressed before is also necessary for admission of a document, but is not really an authentication matter. This second requirement is one of relevance under FRE 401 and FRE 403. It concerns the examination of whether the statements in the authenticated document are true or false. ”
Now note the last sentence, authentication does not mean the statement are true or false
It’s really dumb.
Imperfect date stamp on a selective service registration = “DEFINITE FORGERY!!!”
A doctor misspelling his own name on a purported Kenyan birth certificate = “Meh. Kenyans aren’t as uptight about spelling their own names as Americans are.”
Zullo (sorta) “explained” this on last week’s “Freedom Friday”: The SSS’s records show that Obama was registered, but the registration is a fake. In other words, “someone” slipped a fake registration into the SSS’s records.
Or so concludes Zullo, based on “evidence” that he intends to share … any day now (i.e., never).
Really, it is just more of the usual birther goalpost moving: “show me the microfiche/wet ink/etc.”
Zullo explained it as a clerk in New Jersey was issuing fake birth certificates so Obama’s fake Selective Service card was inserted into the SSS records. LOL.
All the rest of his evidence is based on this Linda Bentley’s Sonoran News article:
http://www.sonorannews.com/archives/2010/100303/webonlyObama.html
Ah, more evidence it might have been forged!
“4479 Former Director of the Selective Service System from November 26, 1979 to July 31, 1981, Bernard Rostker, attributed the high rates of compliance and accuracy to the individual accountability imposed by face-to-face registrations.”
Which make I more likely as the clerk did not identify the applicant, and the dates would match if it was face to face.
Which opens the nonsensical possibility that someone impersonating Barack Obama registered at the post office back in 1980.
A certified document is self authenticating. A birth certificate is admissible as an exception to the hearsay rule.
They are not “literature,” but that aside…
Provenance is a verifiable background, not somebody’s story.
We have a chain of custody for the Obama document. We know when it was produced, We have the testimony of the person who supervised its production. We have the name of the attorney who picked up, the dates of travel, and we have continuing attestation on the Department of Health web site.
For the Kenyan thing
We do not know who produced it. Smith even suggests that the person whose signature is on the document never even saw it. We do not know who Smith bribed. We do not know Smith’s dates of travel, or indeed if he has even been to Kenya. And finally, there is no Coast General web site validating that the document exists, that it was given to Smith, or anything Smith claims to have done.
If you think that’s equal provenance, you’re nuts.
As for proof: ALL of the birther claims of marks of forgery in the Hawaii birth certificate fell apart under scrutiny. On the other hand, nearly all of the claims of marks of forgery on the Smith Kenya image have been sustained. The only ones that were not sustained were the “ny” ligature on the font (which turned out not to exist when Smith released a clearer version of his image) and very early claims that the physical characteristics of the child indicated dwarfism, when in fact they were just very unusual.
A certified birth certificate is accepted in every court in the Country to prove the information contained therein.
The alleged Kenyan document cannot be authenticated by anyone. It would not be admissible in any Court.
As a matter of both fact and law, the President was born in Hawaii.
I am sorry that you don’t understand our legal system and why that makes birthers look like fools.
One of the problems with your argument, and all like it, is that you argue contradictory narratives. You can argue that the Hawaiian birth certificate is genuine but inauthentic or you could argue that it is not genuine. Now if you were willing to concede that the Hawaiian birth certificate is genuine, not a modern forgery, not something made with Photoshop–then we could discuss alternatives, like the original being inauthentic. But you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
Obama’s birth certificate (either the short or long one) would be prima facie evidence of the facts of his birth. The burden of proof is on you. Obama is in the White House, if you hadn’t noticed. The burden of proof is on you.
It’s not literature you’re an idiot. Unless you’re claiming the forgery is a work of art.
“lit·er·a·ture
/ˈlidərəCHər,ˈlidərəˌCHo͝or/
noun
noun: literature; plural noun: literatures
written works, especially those considered of superior or lasting artistic merit.
“a great work of literature”
synonyms: written works, writings, writing, creative writing, literary texts, compositions; informallit
“English literature”
•books and writings published on a particular subject.
“the literature on environmental epidemiology”
synonyms: publications, published writings, texts, reports, studies
“the literature on prototype theory”
•leaflets and other printed matter used to advertise products or give advice.
synonyms: printed matter, brochures, leaflets, pamphlets, circulars, flyers, handouts, handbills, bulletins, fact sheets, publicity, propaganda, notices
“election literature” ”
from google!
And that differs in what respect does it differ from Kenyan bc.
It was picked up and paid for at a government agency as being a certified copy of a birth certificate, it has never left the hands of the purchaser, and the purchaser has retained it in his files , and displayed it to the public.
So its provenance is a good as that of the HDOH document.
Of course it could be fake, but you can not prove it fake, and birthers can not prove the fakeness of the Hawaiian birth certificate as they are not allowed to examine the original copy’
Until that has been done both are in the same position of being certified copies of a birth certificate issued by a governmental agency.
LDS has lots of documentation explaining the items that you have claimed as erroneous, and that does not make the thing true or false,
Anti-birthers have spent time and money trying to prove that the birthers claims were wrong, and it still not prove that it is true or false.
If the original document was authenticated it could still be determined that the facts in the document are false, in both cases.
Everyone seem to think that the certified copy is true , but what to you do when two certified birth certificates appear in court, and it is claimed that both are self authenticating.
Believe as you wish about your position, but don’t think your position is always correct.
I don’t!
“Apostilles certify only that a document has been signed by, and bears the seal and stamp of, a duly commissioned Notary Public of the State of Hawaii OR was certified by the appropriate custodian of records (e.g. Court Clerk). An Apostille does not validate the substance, contents, and/or legal effect of the document, nor that the document has been approved and/or endorsed by the Lieutenant Governor, the State of Hawaii, or any court of competent jurisdiction.”
Trader Jack, you don’t get to claim that distinguishing between the authenticity of President Obama’s long form birth certificate and the claimed Kenyan birth certificate is a matter of “opinion” or belief. The long form birth certificate has been authenticated by the State of Hawaii in writing. The Kenyan birth certificate has never been authenticated by any issuing body or body of custodianship. Legally and as a matter of record, the Hawaii birth certificate is accepted by the authorities that certified Barack Obama for the Presidency – twice.
If you think that the Kenyan certificate is authentic and the Hawaiian one is false, your choice. However, the burden of proof rests with you. You have to provide compelling evidence, with supporting arguments, that proves your case. Uttering variants of “it’s obvious” or “because I/some experts say so” doesn’t constitute proof. It merely makes you look like just about every armchair expert that has hit a keyboard in the last 9 years on this topic. Or, as my Dad would say, you’re all mouth and no trousers.
Jack still hasn’t figured out how to use the quote function. In his 3:24 a.m. post on the 8th he quotes me as having written something which actually was posted by Thrifty.
I am not prepared to deal with that level of stupid. Sorry.
Ok see no it hasn’t. A man who has convictions for forgery SAID that. Do you understand how his past impugns his credibility? Would you give a key to your home to a stranger who has multiple convictions for theft and burglary?
Philosophically, you really can’t prove anything. So in a sense, the Hawaii birth certificate could be a forgery created by a giant and ludicrously complicated conspiracy. It would serve no purpose, since even a Kenyan born Barack Obama would be eligible due to the American citizenship of his mother. But you know what, you also can’t prove that you’re having these conversations with the people on this blog. We could all be one person. We could all be one advanced computer program. You can’t even really prove reality itself…. we could all be plugged in to The Matrix. The point is that you take as proof the thing that makes the most sense given the available facts. So please tell me which of these scenarios makes more sense:
— Barack Obama was born in Hawaii and has a birth certificate proving such. The accuracy of the facts on the birth certificate have been attested to by multiple people with clean criminal records and long distinguished careers in public service. All these people were lying, for no discernable motive, to convince the public of an irrelevant fact (Obama born in Hawaii).
— Barack Obama was born in Kenya. A man with convictions in forgery created a forged birth certificate, then put it up for sale on eBay, for the purposes of making money.
I suppose if Barack Obama alone had said that he had obtained his birth certificate, and he was also trying to sell it to make a quick buck, and he also had past convictions for forgery, I might be inclined to suspect his birth certificate of being a forgery.
That ground’s been gone over many times here already, but here’s a real-life case of how somebody’s life can be wrecked by what “everybody knows”:
http://lewistownsentinel.com/page/content.detail/id/570588/Migrant-mix-up.html?nav=5010
Once online source states this:
Yes, that is WND claiming he is basically a fraud.
At the time, Smith claimed he had a past but his past is not so past. His current outstanding warrant in Cedar Rapids, Iowa is from a conviction for illegally passing checks (basically, forgery) a couple years after his attempt to pass off the “Kenyan BC.”
I’m pretty sure that, despite this, traderjack would be more than willing to accept a check from he, Lucas Smith, as payment for goods or services.
Heck, you miss my point totally.
Your hatred of LDS;s Kenyan BC is based upon his personal life and not on the document. He may have been a forger in the past, and a crook, and a thief, but none of that applies to the verification, or certification of a birth certificate.
You may use his history to challenge the story, but you must verify that the facts on the document are in error, and you can no more do that , than Zullo can verify the facts on the HDOH bc.
The certification gets you into court for evidence, then you get a simple challenge by either party, who submits another different certified , and then you get to challenge the submitted documents.as to their veracity.
the facts of any submitted document, verified, certified, or authenticated , are always subject to challenge by opposing party.
Why is that so hard to understand.?
There are many cases of birth certificate error in court filings, which would tend to indicate that belief that certified copies of birth certificates are always true indicates that you don’t understand that the agencies involved have no way to determine the truth of the information when they are filed with the agency.
“Certified copies will normally be sent out within 6-8 weeks after receipt and approval of the application. The return time may be extended for records that are very old, because the search to locate the record may take longer, or in the process of being filed, because the official record is still being created”
Kind of indicates that records can be created, and that all of the documents are not digitized or on the computer doesn’t it.
The LDS certificate has historical errors on it; Obama’s birth certificate does not. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
I don’t hate he, Lucas Smith, at all.
I just want to get this straight. Even though he, Lucas Smith, had a history of forging documents for profit, this ONE case, where he was presenting a document for sale, is NOT a forgery?
The whole thing is an issue of credibility of the source. With identification documents like birth certificates, you essentially take the submitter’s word for it that the document is authentic, unless there is a reason to believe that it’s not. It’s why, when you are pulled over, the officer just accepts your license, registration, and proof of insurance instead of getting the DMV to verify the first two, and an insurance company to verify the last.
On the surface, Lucas’s birth certificate presents a pretty probable reason that it would be unreliable (it was presented for sale by a convicted forger).
What probable reason do you have to suspect any of Obama’s Hawaii based birth certificates aren’t?
And this is just the first part. As Doc just mentioned, Lucas Smith’s have further errors that impugn its reliability.
You are leaving out an important distinction.
Under Rule 902 of the Federal Rules of Evidence, the domestic BC is self-authenticating. The burden of proof is on the one challenge its authenticity.
On the other hand, the LDS piece of paper purports to be a “Foreign Public Document,” which means it is governed by Section 3 of the same rule — under which, at the very least:
“[t]he document must be accompanied by a final certification … The certification may be made by a secretary of a United States embassy or legation; by a consul general, vice consul, or consular agent of the United States; or by a diplomatic or consular official of the foreign country assigned or accredited to the United States.”
The LDS document has no such certification. It wouldn’t even get in the door. Legally, as evidence, the two documents are not remotely comparable.
Obama’s Hawaii birth certificate is prima facie evidence that he was born in Hawaii.
If you tried to challenge the veracity of his Hawaii birth certificate with Lucas Daniel Smith’s document, you would be laughed out of court.
You are incredibly stupid or incredibly obstinate. Or both.
And none of that fits the fake kenyan bc lucas created.
No it wasn’t. No government has vouched for lucas’ fake bc. Nor is there any proof Lucas purchased it.
You’re an idiot. Nowhere are the two documents being close to being in the same position. Lucas has never proven he ever went to kenya. No government official has vouched for lucas’ forgery.
Jack is proof that elderly people are not necessarily imbued with wisdom.
Let me try to summarize jack’s argument in plain English: No one from the state agency issuing a birth certificate was present at the birth, so they can only go by the facts presented to them.
Absolutely true. But jack wants to selectively apply that logic ONLY to Barack Obama. The same is true of Donald Trump. No one from the NYC Department of Health was standing there when his blond mop of hair entered the world. They only recorded what the hospital sent them.
So, if I, who have never been convicted of forgery, fraud, or any crime, were to make a flawless birth certificate showing Trump born in Scotland, that would be more convincing by far than LDS’s POS Kenyan one. If I wanted to do so, I would certainly go to Scotland and get stamps in my passport and boarding passes and hotel receipts, which I would happily post). jack would have to give it equal weight to the POS Trump posted.
Sorry, but on exactly what evidence to you claim that the Smith certificate “was picked up and paid for at a government agency”? In the art world, if someone claimed to have a previously unknown work by Vincent Van Gogh, the story “Van Gogh personally sold it to my grandfather, and my grandfather passed it to my father and my father passed it to me” is worthless without some verifiable documentation that these events happened. A claim is not evidence.
The Smith certificate is all claim, something that rises and falls with the credibility of Smith himself. Historical contradictions in the Smith image itself are sufficient to discredit it, and of course official documents show Obama was born in Hawaii.
Here are some of the major objections to the Smith certificate, any of which is sufficient to disqualify it as legitimate:
1. Dates on the document are in mm/dd/yyyy (US) format. Kenyan documents are in the dd/mm/yyyy format.
2. The name of the hospital administrator on the document is that of a person who was not the administrator on the date appearing on the document.
3. The name of the hospital administrator is misspelled both on a rubber stamp and on a handwritten signature.
These are items that call into question the legitimacy of Smith’s claim:
1. Smith is a convicted felon.
2. Smith tried to sell the birth certificate
3. Smith got $5,800 from Bruce Stedman to help him stop extradition from Puerto Rico to Kenya. I checked with the US Embassy in Puerto Rico and found that there was no extradition request. Also the extradition document Smith produced was defective in that it involved the wrong agency both on the US side and the Kenyan side.
4. Typography on the Smith certificate matches that of the TrueType Garramond font as composed by Microsoft Word.
5. The physical measurements of the infant on the Smith Certificate are very unusual.
6. Known copies of authentic Kenyan birth certificates have a completely different format than the Smith certificate.
7. The full date of birth for Obama’s father is missing on the Smith certificate, which was published at a time when that full date was not publicly known. The birth year could be a calculation from the Father’s Age on the President’s real birth certificate. The full date of birth for Obama’s mother appears on the Smith certificate, a date publicly known.
8. The time of birth on the Smith certificate is identical to the time of birth on the President’s real birth certificate–indicating copying.
9. The image of the footprint on Smith’s first certificate is too low in resolution to be a photocopy of the original unless the original was itself of low resolution. However, Smith later published a 2nd version of his certificate showing much higher resolution, meaning that the purported original could not have been low resolution.
10. The Smith Certificate says Obama was born on the evening of August 4, making it logistically implausible that the parents could have made it back to Hawaii by August 8 to register Obama. (Grandparent registration is not possible in this scenario.) Mombasa had no international airport.
11. There is no place for an informant’s signature on the form.
12. The location of Mombasa is odd, given that it had no international airport at the time and that it is on the opposite side of the country from where Obama’s family lived.
13. Smith has withheld any documentation that would show that he was ever in Kenya. Given that Smith has gone to great lengths to pop-up his document, withholding travel details doesn’t make sense, except that forging a passport stamp might be a crime, while faking a Kenyan birth certificate would not (at least not int he US).
No problem! Lying convicted forger LDS would just forge one of those too.
Doc has laid out essentially all of the problems with the Smith forgery.
The only thing that I will add, and which has been discussed repeatedly here over the years, is the utter implausibility of an 18-year-old woman, pregnant with her first child, agreeing to fly halfway around the world to give birth in Kenya. The trip would have been incredibly arduous, requiring several stops, and prohibitively expensive. Not to mention that a trip to Kenya would have exposed to her the fact that her husband was a bigamist.
Selling it on EBay claiming it’s real might be mail/wire fraud though.
that is one of the problems with the thinking here.
There is no reason that she could not have flown to Kenya in March of 1961 and stayed with the Obama family until the child was born, is there?
is there evidence she was in Hawaii after March of 1961, is there evidence she was in Kenya after that date?
So, if you can not locate her in a definite spot after that date, you have no reason to think that she flew to Kenya to have the baby in August of 1961 as no one seems to know where she was for those 4 months.
Some think that she went to Kenya as a exchange student after Punahou and getting pregnant. Then came back with the baby .
Apparently some American citizen had a child in East Africa after July 1,1961 and came back to the USA.
True or not, I do know, as those records seem to difficult to find in the archives.
The problem with your thinking is that you’re arguing from contradictory premises. On the one hand you are trying to give weight to the Smith certificate, which says Obama was born in Mombasa, and now you’re trying to make a plausibility argument for Dunham staying with the Obama family until the child was born, when in fact Kogelo village where the Obama family lives is on the OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE COUNTRY from Mombasa. Mombasa did not have an international airport in 1961, and I can think of no reason whatsoever that the Obamas would have been in Mombasa.
In any case, INS entry statistics for 1961-2 exclude the possibility that Dunham and child could have traveled by air from Kenya to the United States. Add to that, the immigration file for Obama Sr. Said that he didn’t leave the country. So it’s all totally bogus.
That was one of those faked bits of data from he Daily Pen, the same group that brought you Zullo’s bogus race code table.
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/03/us-citizen-births-in-africarare-in-1961/
First, it was not “East Africa” but “Other Africa” where “Other Africa” means any part of Africa except Libya, Morocco, South Africa and Egypt. The second problem with that claim is that had Barack Obama been born in Africa, he would not have gotten a consular certificate of birth abroad because he would not have been a US citizen. In 1961, a 17-year-old mother couldn’t pass on US citizenship to a foreign-born child with a foreign father. The third objection is that the same statistical report from which that consular report was tabulated specifically states only ONE person traveled from Kenya to the US by air during the whole year. You could have Barack Obama Sr., Barack Obama II, or you could have Stanley Ann Obama, but only one of them.
See also:
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/03/born-in-africa-myth-crushed-under-weight-of-complexity/
As always, birther claims fall apart under scrutiny.
There is no reason she could not have? Well being 8 months pregnant no one would let her fly to kenya without an inoculation which they don’t give to pregnant women. Second Obama Sr never left the US so then you’re saying she flew alone for a period of a few days only to rush back. Also his family lives nowhere near Mombassa so it makes no sense for him to be born there.
Some think she went to kenya as an exchange student? That’s the first time I heard that claim did you just make it up?
There are plenty of reasons. She was 18 years old, her parents lived in Honolulu, and Honolulu had a first-class maternity hospital with highly qualified doctors which she could get to in minutes. Barack Obama Sr.’s family lived in Nogelo, approximately 550 miles and a 13 1/2 hour drive from Mombasa, where Smith claims that Obama was born.
You are suggesting that she gave up all of the advantages of having her child in Honolulu in order to wait out her pregnancy 550 miles from the Mombasa maternity hospital in a strange country where she knew nobody and knew nothing about the quality of Kenya’s healthcare facilities.
A round-trip flight to Kenya from Honolulu would have cost thousands of dollars. Even today, when airline fares are much lower in constant dollars, it cost more than $2,000 to fly from Honolulu to Mombasa and the trip can take up to 48 hours one way.
There also is no evidence that Barack Obama Sr. traveled to Kenya at any point during 1961. Yet you believe that Stanley Ann would have hopped on a plane by herself in order to fly halfway around the world and give birth to her child in the company of total strangers. Only in your fantasies.
There is evidence that she was in Hawaii on August 4, 1961, There is no evidence that she ever set foot in Kenya.
In Stanley Ann’s case that would have been a pretty good trick, considering that she never attended Punahou, She graduated high school in Washington and enrolled at the University of Hawaii in 1960.
Some people think that the earth is hollow and that flying saucers come from a subterranean world through openings at the North Pole and South Pole. That doesn’t make it true, much less plausible.
You are ignoring evidence.
There is evidence she was in Honolulu on August 7th, 1961 as Dr. Onaka has specifically verified that she signed the original birth certificate on that date. Dr. Onaka also specifically verified that the attendant signed the certificate on August 8th,1961. The attendant certified that the child was born “alive at the date and hour stated” on the certificate.
Both Smith’s BC and Hawaii’s BC have a birth date in the evening of August 4th, 1961. So according to you, Stanley Ann had her baby in Kenya and the next day flew back to the US with an hours old infant.
BTW, Stanley Ann Dunham never attended Punahou School
—-
She lived in the USA;
Her doctor lived in the USA;
Her mother lived in the USA;
Her husband lived in the USA;
She did not know her husband’s family in Kenya;
Traveling to and through Kenya would be ridiculously onerous, particularly for a pregnant American teenager on her own, in 1961, off to visit and get medical care from strangers in a third world country (instead of being at home with her doctor, mother, husband);
Stupidest theory of all.
Trader Jack has nothing to offer here other than implausible hypotheticals and reliance on a forgery perpetrated by a convicted forger who attempted to sell his fake document on Ebay.
I don’t think Trader Jack has a clue as to how silly his theories sound to anyone with a modicum of critical thinking ability.
Including the expense.
Somedays, I am not sure his angle as he sometimes posts things like the following;
https://www.scribd.com/document/53756195/Dr-James-O-W-Ang-awa-May-18-1961-University-of-Notre-Dame-Document-Delivery-11-10-2009-East-Africa-and-Rhodesia-Volume-37-page-995
The scan from some book says that Dr. Ang’awa, who is listed as attending physician on the LDS cert, had worked in Port Reitz Chest Hospital in Mombasa but now at an extension of the King George VI Hospital in Nairobi. Now would be sometime on or before May 18, 1961 as that is the date on the book. His specialty has been chest and infectious diseases. He was not an OB/GYN.
So LDS provided proof that not only was Dr. Ang’awa not at Coast General, he was busy treating TB not delivering babies.