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Typography on the Lucas Smith Kenyan birth certificate

Two “Kenyan” birth certificates alleged to be those of Barack Obama have appeared in court filings in birther lawsuits. The first, what I call the Bomford certificate, was a hoax made to punk the birthers. Very few still support that document.

The second Kenyan birth certificate, provided by convicted forger Lucas Smith, probably created to make money, is the more interesting and despite its many factual errors, is still revered by many birthers. Today someone calling himself “the pressman” sent me an email discussing problems with the typography of the form. Even though the Smith certificate has been thoroughly discredited, since it’s “nail in the coffin” week here at Obama Conspiracy Theories, I present this argument for your evaluation (URLs added and a typo corrected by me).

Most composition and printing during the late 50’s was done via letterpress. The small code on the bottom right of the form would indicate the internal form number or in this case, V for version number V452 and M32. The use of the capital M is also used for the number 1000, or perhaps the quantity printed at that time 32000. Or it could be the year it was printed 1932. Printers still use these identifiers on forms for governments. Take a look at a tax form and see all the small codes on those.

So, this establishes that the base birth certificate had to have been printed on letterpress equipment and not offset. That would mean that the type was either machine set on a linotype, or handset, since photocomposition was a ways off in the future. This is where the trouble starts. The font used for descriptions is Caslon1. or a variant of that. It was originally designed by William Caslon, and the font was available in both linotype and handset during the 1940’s, but this particular version is not of that era. Like I said, it is a variant, and this version is Adobe Caslon1, which was not available until the late 1980’s as a digital font.

The typewriter font appears to be American Typewriter which is also a digital font. Due to the distortion of the paper, the it looks wider in some instances. A 12 pica typewriter font should be uniform in width.

If a real typewriter was used, the ribbon on this certificate had to be brand new. All the letters are complete and very dark. Normally, unless a typewriter from that era was brand new some letters would have deviations due to age of the typewriter, and ribbon condition. All of these look like a brand new typewriter. New equipment in Mombasa?

The nail in the coffin that this is a forgery comes from a type issue we take for granted these days. In the line at the top which reads, Mombasa. British Protectorate of Kenya…. The give away is the kerning of the letters n and y in the word Kenya. The y is nestled beneath the n and it is impossible to duplicate that on a Linotype or in handset. No ligatures exist for that combination in metal or in mold. I know this for fact. When digital computer fonts are designed, the metrics or mechanical way letters sit together are refined into what is called kerning pairs. Two letters that will look better when set is what type designers do for a living. The word Kenya has this kerning pair of the n and y. This can only be done on a computer. There are a few other instances of this kerning issue in the document as well.

One other thing to consider. What is the actual size of the document? You cannot use the PDF for extracting that info, because it has been distorted by copying many times and poor scanning. European paper sizes are much different than US paper sizes.

I will examine this closer when I have a moment, but off the cuff, it’s a fake.

To illustrate the writers point, here are two images: the first showing “ny” from the Smith certificate, and the second showing “ny” from a book printed in 1942 I happened to have in my library. The descender on the “y” actually tucks under the “n” in the Smith certificate, but clearly not in the book example.

“ny” from Smith Certificate

“ny” from 1942 book

Older articles on this alleged Kenyan birth certificate:


1Update: The font isn’t Caslon. It’s something from the Garamond family. The uppercase “W” clearly distinguishes between the two.

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466 Responses to Typography on the Lucas Smith Kenyan birth certificate

  1. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 15, 2011 at 8:01 pm #

    Oopsy!

    So now we have evidence that Lucas Smith is an inept forger. Still, I don’t imagine this will breach any bither confirmation biases…

  2. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 15, 2011 at 8:16 pm #

    One thing in the argument troubled me, the sentence: “New equipment in Mombasa?”

    Did Kenya only import used typewriters? When my son was very small, he had an imaginary “used battery factory.” Maybe Kenya had a used typewriter factory.

  3. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 15, 2011 at 8:35 pm #

    The Smith Certificate does indeed appear to be printed in the Caslon font. The capital “W” is particularly distinctive. I wouldn’t know about Adobe variants though. I think I used to have a copy of Adobe Caslon, but that’s probably long gone. [Where the heck did I put the copies of all those old floppy disks?]

  4. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 15, 2011 at 8:49 pm #

    One question that comes to mind is why the certificate is so crummy. According to Smith the photocopy was made in 2009 at the hospital where Obama was born. So this should be a modern photocopy of an original document. Why does it look like a warped, dirty, 10th generation copy?

    Other problems with the certificate include: the hospital administrator shown was not the administrator on the date the certificate was supposedly signed by him. The administrator’s name is misspelled. The dates are in mm/dd/yyyy format instead of the British dd/mm/yyyy format.

  5. avatar
    Sean March 15, 2011 at 9:00 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:

    Other problems with the certificate include: the hospital administrator shown was not the administrator on the date the certificate was supposedly signed by him. The administrator’s name is misspelled.

    How is it misspelled?

  6. avatar
    Majority Will March 15, 2011 at 9:24 pm #

    Sean: How is it misspelled?

    A poster on barackryphal.blogspot.com, 10/1/09:

    . . . On the top left corner of his hoax is a stamp with a signature. Both read Helton Maganga. The true name of this Doctor is Heltan Maganga not Helton.
    This is confirmed by this Kenyan listing of doctors:

    http://www.healthoutsource.co.ke/directory/healthdirectory.php?id=1199 *

    and by this video of an interview to him:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vL2ErPz7Qk&feature=player_embedded

    How did he make such a mistake ? While searching the name he came across some second hand articles about a cholera outbreak that mispelled tha name. The original Kenyan source-articles spell the name correctly.
    So it is obvious he made the stamp himself, unfortunately he mispelled the name.”

    (source: http://barackryphal.blogspot.com/2009/09/lucas-smith-is-back.html)

    * (dead link and a redirect to http://www.kenyahealthline.com/)

  7. avatar
    Tarrant March 15, 2011 at 9:55 pm #

    In addition to the things Doc mentioned, the fact that the seal simply says “seal” inside it always makes me wonder. I have had many documents stamped with a seal in my time – government documents, notarized contracts, etc. Generally the seal on them has a state symbol, or in the case of a notary sometimes a signature spot or official county seal. Never simply the word “seal”. Maybe they did it differently back then, I don’t know. But it makes me think of a “do it yourself” seal or something that he just left the center as it was.

  8. avatar
    Sean March 15, 2011 at 10:59 pm #

    Majority Will: A poster on barackryphal.blogspot.com, 10/1/09:

    . . .On the top left corner of his hoax is a stamp with a signature. Both read Helton Maganga. The true name of this Doctor is Heltan Maganga not Helton.
    This is confirmed by this Kenyan listing of doctors:

    http://www.healthoutsource.co.ke/directory/healthdirectory.php?id=1199*

    and by this video of an interview to him:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vL2ErPz7Qk&feature=player_embedded

    How did he make such a mistake ? While searching the name he came across some second hand articles about a cholera outbreak that mispelled tha name. The original Kenyan source-articles spell the name correctly.
    So it is obvious he made the stamp himself, unfortunately he mispelled the name.”

    (source: http://barackryphal.blogspot.com/2009/09/lucas-smith-is-back.html)

    * (dead link and a redirect to http://www.kenyahealthline.com/)

    That’s great! He did research, but not enough!

  9. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 15, 2011 at 11:56 pm #

    Dear Dr Conspiracy,

    As you know I have never posted on blog in the past. I do sometimes read your blog. I don’t agree with much that you have ever written but this latest article about the birth certificate is a disgrace and, other than Corsi’s editorials from 2009, this has got the be one of the most egregiously misguiding articles that I’ve ever read on skeptics website or blog.

    The author, and supposed expert pressman, wants us to believe that the entire document should have been created on a letter letterpress. The author supplies us with nothing more than his subjective biased, misleading, overreaching, cozen and outright vituperative opinion to back up his claims that the 1961 document template or form should have been created on a letterpress.

    The truth of the matter is that Offset Lithography became the most popular form of commercial printing in the 1950s. The birth certificate template, of form, was most likely created on an offset lithography printing press.

    The author wants the reader to believe, on faith, that the birth certificate template, or form, was created in much the same manner that the Guttenberg bible was printed in the 1450s, with tiny little letter, much like those on a typewriter, arranged together on a plate.

    I am familiar with offset lithography (worked on a huge monster of and older Whelan and also a Komori) and it’s obvious, conspicuously, that birth certificate was created on an offset lithography press and NOT a letterpress.

    Anonymous email, filed with nothing more than drivel and wholly unsubstantiated claims. This is an all time low.

    I am posting this on my youtube forum. Let your new blog report stand as a testament to the unethical lengths that skeptics will go to discredit the 1961 CPGH Obama birth certificate.

    Good night.

    Lucas D. Smith

  10. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 16, 2011 at 12:10 am #

    Lucas D. Smith:
    Dear Dr Conspiracy,

    As you know I have never posted on blog in the past. I do sometimes read your blog.I don’t agree with much that you have ever written but this latest article about the birth certificate is a disgrace and, other than Corsi’s editorials from 2009, this has got the be one of the most egregiously misguiding articles that I’ve ever read on skeptics website or blog.

    The author, and supposed expert pressman, wants us to believe that the entire document should have been created on a letter letterpress. The author supplies us with nothing more than his subjective biased, misleading, overreaching, cozen and outright vituperative opinion to back up his claims that the 1961 document template or form should have been created on a letterpress.

    The truth of the matter is that Offset Lithography became the most popular form of commercial printing in the 1950s.The birth certificate template, of form, was most likely created on an offset lithography printing press.

    The author wants the reader to believe, on faith, that the birth certificate template, or form, was created in much the same manner that the Guttenberg bible was printed in the 1450s, with tiny little letter, much like those on a typewriter, arranged together on a plate.

    I am familiar with offset lithography (worked on a huge monster of and older Whelan and also a Komori) and it’s obvious, conspicuously, that birth certificate was created on an offset lithography press and NOT a letterpress.

    Anonymous email, filed with nothing more than drivel and wholly unsubstantiated claims. This is an all time low.

    I am posting this on my youtube forum.Let your new blog report stand as a testament to the unethical lengths that skeptics will go to discredit the 1961 CPGH Obama birth certificate.

    Good night.

    Lucas D. Smith

    So Lucas what kind of Press did you use to make the certificate?

  11. avatar
    Atticus Finch March 16, 2011 at 12:41 am #

    The so-called Lucas Smith’s alleged Obama’s Kenya birth certificate will never be introduced as evidence in any trial because the manner of the way Lucas Smith obtained the birth certificate did not comply with the Federal Rules of Evidence, particularly regarding foreign public documents as set forth in Rule 902 (3) of the Federal Rules of Evidence, as provided:

    (3) Foreign public documents.–A document purporting to be executed or attested in an official capacity by a person authorized by the laws of a foreign country to make the execution or attestation, and accompanied by a final certification as to the genuineness of the signature and official position (A) of the executing or attesting person, or (B) of any foreign official whose certificate of genuineness of signature and official position relates to the execution or attestation or is in a chain of certificates of genuineness of signature and official position relating to the execution or attestation. A final certification may be made by a secretary of an embassy or legation, consul general, consul, vice consul, or consular agent of the United States, or a diplomatic or consular official of the foreign country assigned or accredited to the United States. If reasonable opportunity has been given to all parties to investigate the authenticity and accuracy of official documents, the court may, for good cause shown, order that they be treated as presumptively authentic without final certification or permit them to be evidenced by an attested summary with or without final certification.

    Federal courts have ruled that unless the foreign birth certificate complies with FRE 902 then the it is inadmissible .US v. Medrano, __F. 3rd ___ (10th cir. 2009) (“birth certificate was executed by a person authorized by Mexican laws to execute birth certificates, and it was accompanied by a certification from a United States Vice-Consul that the person who executed it was authorized to do so.”) . “Although the trial court was correct in finding that neither Rule 901 nor 902(3) was complied with, the court did abuse its discretion in holding the evidence authentic and admissible. This circuit requires strict compliance with the authenticity rules. United States v. Perlmuter, 693 F. 2d 1290, 1292 (9th Cir. 1982 (internal citations omitted)

    As such, the purported Lucas Smith’s birth certificate doesn’t even come close in complying with Rule 902(3) by the following:

    1. There is no proof by Kenyan laws that a Chief Administrator “Dr. Heltan Maganga” of a private hospital is authorized to attest as to the genuineness of the birth certificate
    2. There is no proof that signature of the Chief Administrator “Dr. Heltan Maganga” is genuine in absence of a certification
    3. There is no final certification by any personnel in the United States embassy in Kenya.

    That is why Lucas Smith’s purported birth certificate is worthless

  12. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 1:02 am #

    correction:

    My paragraph: “The author wants the reader to believe, on faith, that the birth certificate template, or form, was created in much the same manner that the Guttenberg bible was printed in the 1450s, with tiny little letter, much like those on a typewriter, arranged together on a plate.

    Should read:

    “The author wants the reader to believe, on faith, that the birth certificate template or form, IF CREATED IN 1961 OR IN THE LATE 1950s, WOULD HAVE BEEN created in much the same manner that the Guttenberg bible was printed in the 1450s, with tiny little letter, much like those on a typewriter, arranged together on a plate.”

  13. avatar
    G March 16, 2011 at 1:21 am #

    LOL! A visit from Lucas Smith. We’ve now got an actual debunked forger visiting!!

    I’m mildly entertained.

  14. avatar
    obsolete March 16, 2011 at 1:25 am #

    Sell any good kidneys lately, Lucas?
    Get the baby’s footprint from a clip art site?
    How many times have you been convicted of forgery?
    Post proof you went to Kenya.

  15. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 16, 2011 at 1:26 am #

    Lucas D. Smith:
    Dear Dr Conspiracy,

    As you know I have never posted on blog in the past. I do sometimes read your blog.I don’t agree with much that you have ever written but this latest article about the birth certificate is a disgrace and, other than Corsi’s editorials from 2009, this has got the be one of the most egregiously misguid[ed] articles that I’ve ever read on [a] skeptic[']s website or blog.

    Mr. Smith, forgive my correcting your grammar, but I wanted it to be clear what you said. First off, I don’t believe that Mr. Corsi can be characterized as a skeptic about birtherism. Secondly, if you want to accuse Doc C. of being egregiously misguided (assuming that’s what you meant), then you should give some indication of how he has mischaracterized the issue and some evidence to support your assertion because, quite frankly, you have zero credibility here (I’m guessing most people here believe that you forged this document rather than bribed someone to obtain a document which, by law, you could have obtained legally by paying a fee – if it were legitimate, that is…). Finally, I can’t see how this article can be view as in any way ‘vituperative’. Methinks someone doth protest too much…

    The author, and supposed expert pressman [Who claimed no expertise on the part of himself or his source in the article...], wants us to believe that the entire document should have been created on a letter letterpress. The author supplies us with nothing more than his subjective biased, misleading, overreaching, cozen and outright vituperative opinion to back up his claims that the 1961 document template or form should have been created on a letterpress.

    The author (or his source, who I will admit was implicitly endorsed by the Doc in posting this article) does overstate his assertions (he’s made an argument, in my opinion, that the document, if authentic, has some unusual features – certainly the kerning on the document is unmistakeable (I know nothing about the state of form production technology 50 years ago, so I don’t know how unusual the kerning is, but it is clearly there). What this allegation has (and birther arguments typically lack) is an air of plausibility – I don’t know if this argument is true, but your comment, if anything, leads me to suspect that it is…

    The truth of the matter is that Offset Lithography became the most popular form of commercial printing in the 1950s.The birth certificate template, of form, was most likely created on an offset lithography printing press.

    If you want anyone to believe this, give some evidence – as I’ve said, you have no credibility here.

    The author wants the reader to believe, on faith, that the birth certificate template, or form, was created in much the same manner that the Guttenberg bible was printed in the 1450s, with tiny little letter, much like those on a typewriter, arranged together on a plate.

    Again, you need evidence – your past record doesn’t inspire an overabundance of trust.

    I am familiar with offset lithography (worked on a huge monster of and older Whelan and also a Komori) and it’s obvious, conspicuously, that birth certificate was created on an offset lithography press and NOT a letterpress.

    Your self-confirmed ‘expertise’ means squat here – you’re not (in my opinion and, I believe, the opinion of most here) in any way trustworthy. Evidence, please.

    Anonymous email, filed with nothing more than drivel and wholly unsubstantiated claims. This is an all time low.

    An anonymous email – which was presented as an anonymous email. Since standard birther tactics involve claiming the flimsiest of sources (like yourself) as unimpeachable, You’re just chucking boulders out of your glass house here…

    I am posting this on my youtube forum.Let your new blog report stand as a testament to the unethical lengths that skeptics will go to discredit the 1961 CPGH Obama birth certificate.

    As far as I’ve seen, no one has had to go far at all to debunk your masterpiece and someone with as much experience with unethical behavior as you should realize that the Doc hasn’t been unethical here.

    Good night.

    Sweet dreams – hopefully you will be visited by the ghosts of usurpations past, present, and future in the night and learn the error of your ways…

    Lucas D. Smith

    So, Mr. Smith, do you know that the form is genuine because you forged the president’s name onto a real period document?

  16. avatar
    dunstvangeet March 16, 2011 at 1:34 am #

    Lucas Smith…

    Contact your friend over at the Post and Email, Jim Bryne.

    He emailed a Dr. HeltAn Maganga, who is the Chief Administrator of CPGH with the following 3 questions:

    1. Were you the Chief Administrator (or acting Chief Administrator) of CPGH on Feb. 19th 2009?

    2. Do the stamp and signature that appear in the attached document appear to be your stamp and signature?

    3. Is the attached CPGH birth certificate representative of what a birth certificate issued by CPGH in 1961 would look like?

    Dr. HeltAn Maganga responded with this quick response: “The answers to all your questions is a resounding NO.”

    Just further evidence that your forgery is actually a forgery.

  17. avatar
    misha March 16, 2011 at 2:37 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: I don’t agree with much that you have ever written but this latest article about the birth certificate is a disgrace

    Mr. Smith: Unlike most other people here, I agree with you. I have found a Kenyan Obama related document, which will bolster your quest.

    Thanks for visiting.

  18. avatar
    Lupin March 16, 2011 at 3:48 am #

    I know nothing about typefaces etc but I’ve worked in the UK many years ago and I can verify that dates are written day/month/year.

    As far as i know only Americans use month/day/year.

    I am confident in saying that you will never find an official UK document using the American dating protocol.

  19. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny March 16, 2011 at 5:18 am #

    We already know what Lucas will say about the MDY thing. Kenya today uses both versions. This is due to Kiswahili, which is frequently used in Kenya, using the MDY order. Kenyan nationalists at a given moment, a few years after independence, started using the same order when writing in English. It actually never became the norm in Kenya, though some websites claim so. It’s on the Internets somewhere, so it must be true, according to Lucas Smith.

    However, people have dared Lucas to find any instances of the MDY order in Kenyan documents before Kenyan independence. He never complied. Lucas’ comments on the issue seemed to suggest the document was perhaps made up later. But as Dr C commented above, other parts of Lucas’ story depend on it being a crappy copy of an original document.

    The claim that there were TWO chief administrators at the Mombasa hospital is another one of Lucas’ nails in his coffin. Oh, yes, Ghent University Hospital had two administrators listed on their website at some time. It’s on the Internets somewhere, so it must be true.

    What’s next, Lucas? Claiming some Obot (Paul Pieniezny, perhaps) forged this birth certificate before sending it to you (to obscure the fact that Obama was indeed born in Mombasa)? It must be true, it’s on the Internets somewhere.

  20. avatar
    Expelliarmus March 16, 2011 at 7:15 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: The truth of the matter is that Offset Lithography became the most popular form of commercial
    printing in the 1950s.

    Offset lithography is a form of reproducing a document (like photocopying) — not creating or setting the original type. So a typewriter or a linotype is used to create the original document; then an image is made from the print ready copy, and that is used to create a thin metal plate that is put on a cylinder & used to make copies. Here’s a web site that explains how it works: http://www.printingforless.com/Offset-Printing.html

    You’ve still got to have some sort of typesetting process to put together the original form for offsetting.

    I’d also note that even with a new ribbon, the letters aren’t going to have a consistent appearance when types on an old, standard-sized manual typewriter. This is more like what a manual typewriter produces: http://goo.gl/BKZTZ

    The problem is those old, standard sized typewriters were clunky and needed a very firm tap (more like a push than a tap) on each key, and basically if one key is tapped lighter than the other, then the ink impression would also be lighter. It’s a completely mechanical process, and its just natural that sometimes the typist is going to hit a key harder than other times.

    A halfway competent forger might have tried to get hold of a manual typewriter to fill in the fake form. But then again, a halfway competent forger would know the difference between lithography and printing. .

  21. avatar
    ARNOLD CARL TAPP March 16, 2011 at 7:25 am #

    THE ANONYMOUS WRITER OF THIS ARTICLE IMAGINES ITSELF TO BE AN EXPERT
    AUTHORITY ON TYPE, TYPEWRITERS, STRUCTURE, COMPOSITION , AND JUST
    ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE . IT MAKES MANY ASSUMPTIONS AND SPOUTS NON-INFO
    AS THOUGH EVERYTHING IT SAYS IS FACT WRITTEN IN STONE. ANYONE WHO
    BELIEVES THE FAKED UP FORGED DOCUMENT PRESENTED ONLINE BY obummer’s
    CRONIES IS AUTHENTIC IS EXTREMELY GULLIBLE. THIS PAPER IS NOT SUFFICIENT
    TO GET A JOB AT McDONALD’S , OF ENTER A SCHOOL . TIM ADAMS – FORMERLY
    THE SENIOR ELECTIONS CLERK FOR HAWAI’I HAS SWORN UNDER OATH THAT THERE IS NO LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE FOR obummer, AND THAT HE WAS NOT BORN THERE. ANYONE WHO LOOKS AT THE KENYA BIRTH CERTIFICATE CAN EASILY TELL THAT IT IS A COPY OF A TRUE ORIGINAL DOCUMENT, MADE ON AN
    OFFICE COPIER . MISTER SMITH DID NOT TRAVEL TO KENYA FOR THE PURPOSE OF OBTAINING ANY KIND OF DOCUMENT FOR ANYONE. HE WAS THERE ON
    BUSINESS . WHEN A NATIVE OF KENYA ASKED HIM WHAT HE THOUGHT ABOUT A
    KENYAN IN THE OFFICE OF PRESIDENT, HE WAS SURPRISED, AND THEN SET ABOUT
    TRYING TO LEARN MORE AND TO GET THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE. IN THE FEW
    MINUTES IT TOOK TO GET A COPY OF THE ONLY AUTHENTIC BIRTH CERTIFICATE
    FOR obozo , IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE PERSONNEL TO FAKE, FORGE OR
    PHOTOSHOP THE DOCUMENT. ALL THE INFORMATION ON IT IS ACCURATE, AND
    IT NAMES THE FATHER, MOTHER. THEIR PLACES OF BIRTH , THE ATTENDING
    PHYSICIAN, HOSPITAL ADMINISTRATOR, AND WITNESSES . YOU CAN SPEND THE
    REST OF YOUR LIFE TRYING TO DISPROVE THE AUTHENTICITY OF THIS DOCUMENT
    AND NEVER ACCOMPLISH YOUR TASK . IT HAS BEEN ADMITTED AS EVIDENCE IN A
    FEDERAL COURT AND A COPY SENT BY CERTIFIED MAIL TO EVERY MEMBER OF THE 111th AND 112th CONGRESS . VERY SOON THE WHOLE WORLD WILL KNOW
    THE VERACITY OF THIS BONA FIDE DOCUMENT AND YOU WILL ALL BE KNOWN AS :
    >>>>>>>>>>>>> AFTER ~ BIRTHERS <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

  22. avatar
    Keith March 16, 2011 at 7:29 am #

    Expelliarmus: The problem is those old, standard sized typewriters were clunky and needed a very firm tap (more like a push than a tap) on each key, and basically if one key is tapped lighter than the other, then the ink impression would also be lighter. It’s a completely mechanical process, and its just natural that sometimes the typist is going to hit a key harder than other times.

    Not only but also: every typewriter has a unique ‘fingerprint’, whether new or not, not every character is perfect. Police use (or used to use) this fact in their investigations all the time.

  23. avatar
    Northland10 March 16, 2011 at 7:40 am #

    Slartibartfast: First off, I don’t believe that Mr. Corsi can be characterized as a skeptic about birtherism.

    I imagine Mr. Smith is still smarting from the fact that some of the early debunking of his “Kenyan BC” was done by WND. It probably didn’t help that they offered to help validate it and he stopped communication.

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=108005
    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=108773

  24. avatar
    DaveH March 16, 2011 at 8:01 am #

    ARNOLD CARL TAPP: THE ANONYMOUS WRITER OF THIS ARTICLE IMAGINES ITSELF TO BE AN EXPERTAUTHORITY ON TYPE, TYPEWRITERS, STRUCTURE, COMPOSITION , AND JUSTABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE . IT MAKES MANY ASSUMPTIONS AND SPOUTS NON-INFOAS THOUGH EVERYTHING IT SAYS IS FACT WRITTEN IN STONE. ANYONE WHOBELIEVES THE FAKED UP FORGED DOCUMENT PRESENTED ONLINE BY obummer’sCRONIES IS AUTHENTIC IS EXTREMELY GULLIBLE. THIS PAPER IS NOT SUFFICIENTTO GET A JOB AT McDONALD’S , OF ENTER A SCHOOL . TIM ADAMS – FORMERLYTHE SENIOR ELECTIONS CLERK FOR HAWAI’I HAS SWORN UNDER OATH THAT THERE IS NO LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE FOR obummer, AND THAT HE WAS NOT BORN THERE. ANYONE WHO LOOKS AT THE KENYA BIRTH CERTIFICATE CAN EASILY TELL THAT IT IS A COPY OF A TRUE ORIGINAL DOCUMENT, MADE ON ANOFFICE COPIER . MISTER SMITH DID NOT TRAVEL TO KENYA FOR THE PURPOSE OF OBTAINING ANY KIND OF DOCUMENT FOR ANYONE. HE WAS THERE ONBUSINESS . WHEN A NATIVE OF KENYA ASKED HIM WHAT HE THOUGHT ABOUT AKENYAN IN THE OFFICE OF PRESIDENT, HE WAS SURPRISED, AND THEN SET ABOUTTRYING TO LEARN MORE AND TO GET THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE. IN THE FEWMINUTES IT TOOK TO GET A COPY OF THE ONLY AUTHENTIC BIRTH CERTIFICATEFOR obozo , IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE PERSONNEL TO FAKE, FORGE ORPHOTOSHOP THE DOCUMENT. ALL THE INFORMATION ON IT IS ACCURATE, ANDIT NAMES THE FATHER, MOTHER. THEIR PLACES OF BIRTH , THE ATTENDINGPHYSICIAN, HOSPITAL ADMINISTRATOR, AND WITNESSES . YOU CAN SPEND THEREST OF YOUR LIFE TRYING TO DISPROVE THE AUTHENTICITY OF THIS DOCUMENTAND NEVER ACCOMPLISH YOUR TASK . IT HAS BEEN ADMITTED AS EVIDENCE IN AFEDERAL COURT AND A COPY SENT BY CERTIFIED MAIL TO EVERY MEMBER OF THE 111th AND 112th CONGRESS . VERY SOON THE WHOLE WORLD WILL KNOWTHE VERACITY OF THIS BONA FIDE DOCUMENT AND YOU WILL ALL BE KNOWN AS :>>>>>>>>>>>>> AFTER ~ BIRTHERS <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

    YOU HAVE MANAGED TO SPOUT EVERY TALKING POINT OF A BIRFER. BIRFERS BELIEVE CONVICTED FORGERS AND SKIN HEADS OVER LEGITIMATE SOURCES OF FACTS. TIM ADAMS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A SENIOR ANYTHING SINCE HE WAS A TEMPORARY WORKER AND AS AN ELECTIONS CLERK WOULD NOT HAVE ACCESS OR ANY KNOWLEDGE OF BIRTH CERTIFICATES. EVEN IF HE TESTIFIED UNDER OATH, HE WOULD BE PERJURING HIMSELF. LUCAS SMITH DID NOT GO TO KENYA. HAD HE GONE TO KENYA, HE WOULD HAVE PROVEN THIS BY PROVIDING THE PAGES FROM HIS PASSPORT WHERE IT WAS STAMPED ON ENTRY TO THE COUNTRY. LUCAS SMITH WOULD NOT HAVE HAD ANY BUSINESS IN KENYA BECAUSE HE IS A SCAM ARTIST AND HE HAS DONE A FANTASTIC JOB OF SCAMMING YOU.

    There. Now that I have made my point by typing everything in all caps which apparently makes my statement even more truthful than had I typed as I am doing now, I am sure you completely believe me.

  25. avatar
    Reality Check March 16, 2011 at 8:39 am #

    Note to ALL CAPS TAPP:

    Phil Berg submitted a copy of a Canadian birth certificate signed by Dudley Doright to a federal court. The fact that Orly submitted Lucas Smith’s POSFKBC in one of her cases doesn’t imply anything other than that Orly is the world’s worst lawyer and Berg is breathing down her neck. LOL

  26. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 8:41 am #

    DaveH: YOU HAVE MANAGED TO SPOUT EVERY TALKING POINT OF A BIRFER. BIRFERS BELIEVE CONVICTED FORGERS AND SKIN HEADS OVER LEGITIMATE SOURCES OF FACTS. TIM ADAMS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A SENIOR ANYTHING SINCE HE WAS A TEMPORARY WORKER AND AS AN ELECTIONS CLERK WOULD NOT HAVE ACCESS OR ANY KNOWLEDGE OF BIRTH CERTIFICATES. EVEN IF HE TESTIFIED UNDER OATH, HE WOULD BE PERJURING HIMSELF. LUCAS SMITH DID NOT GO TO KENYA. HAD HE GONE TO KENYA, HE WOULD HAVE PROVEN THIS BY PROVIDING THE PAGES FROM HIS PASSPORT WHERE IT WAS STAMPED ON ENTRY TO THE COUNTRY. LUCAS SMITH WOULD NOT HAVE HAD ANY BUSINESS IN KENYA BECAUSE HE IS A SCAM ARTIST AND HE HAS DONE A FANTASTIC JOB OF SCAMMING YOU.

    There. Now that I have made my point by typing everything in all caps which apparently makes my statement even more truthful than had I typed as I am doing now, I am sure you completely believe me.

    Even more bizarre is that convicted felon Lucas is a sloppy forger who has been overwhelmingly and regularly ridiculed by hardcore birthers who debunked his fiction on freeper sites. There was a thread on YouTube where Lucas got furious with birthers who kept pressing him for simple proof he had ever traveled to Kenya. What? He couldn’t figure out how to forge that too?

    But he wouldn’t lie for Orly. Go figure.

  27. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 8:58 am #

    ARNOLD CARL TAPP: THE ANONYMOUS WRITER OF THIS ARTICLE IMAGINES ITSELF TO BE AN EXPERT AUTHORITY ON TYPE, TYPEWRITERS, STRUCTURE, COMPOSITION , AND JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE . IT MAKES MANY ASSUMPTIONS AND SPOUTS NON-INFO
    AS THOUGH EVERYTHING IT SAYS IS FACT WRITTEN IN STONE

    That’s OK to say, but I would expect that it be backed up by specifics. For example, if you thing the typesetting method was something different than what was asserted in the article, then say so and show that it was in use during the time period involved. If you question an assumption, explain your objection.

  28. avatar
    Twinx March 16, 2011 at 8:58 am #

    ARNOLD CARL TAPP: SMITH DID NOT TRAVEL TO KENYA FOR THE PURPOSE OF OBTAINING ANY KIND OF DOCUMENT FOR ANYONE. HE WAS THERE ON
    BUSINESS

    Then why did he state otherwise in an affidavit?

    “I travelled to Kenya and to Mobassa in particular with the intent to obtain the original birth certificate…”

    http://americangrandjury.org/lucas-smith-affidavit-now-filed-with-the-us-district-court-obama-kenyan-bc

    I’m curious as to why Smith changed that part of his story. Aren’t you?

  29. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 9:24 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: As you know I have never posted on blog in the past. I do sometimes read your blog. I don’t agree with much that you have ever written but this latest article about the birth certificate is a disgrace and, other than Corsi’s editorials from 2009, this has got the be one of the most egregiously misguiding articles that I’ve ever read on skeptics website or blog.

    The author, and supposed expert pressman, wants us to believe that the entire document should have been created on a letter letterpress. The author supplies us with nothing more than his subjective biased, misleading, overreaching, cozen and outright vituperative opinion to back up his claims that the 1961 document template or form should have been created on a letterpress.

    The truth of the matter is that Offset Lithography became the most popular form of commercial printing in the 1950s. The birth certificate template, of form, was most likely created on an offset lithography printing press.

    Unlike just about every article on this site, I didn’t write the main content of this one and so I labeled it as an argument for discussion. We discuss all sorts of arguments, and through the collective expertise of the community, we sometimes come to consensus. On a community like this ad hoc arguments like yours aren’t going gain you much sympathy.

    You claim to have expertise with “offset lithography” and say that the document you provided to Orly Taitz was printed that way. However, you fail to say how offset lithography explains the kerning of “ny” that is probably the central argument of the article. If you have the expertise in this printing technology that you claim, then I would expect you to be able provide this explanation — which you have so far chosen not to do.

    Should you at any time wish explain the “ny” or the generally poor condition of your image in court documents, or anything else, feel free to drop by.

    By the way, you have posted here before:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/01/nordyke-twins-birth-announcement-found/#comment-31592

  30. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 9:35 am #

    Paul Pieniezny: The claim that there were TWO chief administrators at the Mombasa hospital is another one of Lucas’ nails in his coffin. Oh, yes, Ghent University Hospital had two administrators listed on their website at some time. It’s on the Internets somewhere, so it must be true.

    Perhaps they weren’t letting the new administrator take over full time until he learned how to spell his name.

  31. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 9:38 am #

    Paul Pieniezny: However, people have dared Lucas to find any instances of the MDY order in Kenyan documents before Kenyan independence. He never complied. Lucas’ comments on the issue seemed to suggest the document was perhaps made up later. But as Dr C commented above, other parts of Lucas’ story depend on it being a crappy copy of an original document.

    Actually, Smith provided a really grubby copy of an identity document using MDY order, but I just assumed he forged it. In the context where I saw it presented, there was no way to verify that it was authentic and unaltered.

  32. avatar
    The Magic M March 16, 2011 at 9:42 am #

    > TIM ADAMS – FORMERLY THE SENIOR ELECTIONS CLERK FOR HAWAI’I

    He was *a* senior elections clerk. Though that job title sounds like much more than it really is. The fact that you seem to need to blow it up even more (by claiming he was *the* SEC) shows you’re in desperate need of argument by authority.

    > HAS SWORN UNDER OATH THAT THERE IS NO LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE

    No, he has published an “affidavit” stating he *was told* there was no long form BC.
    So that’s hearsay. Also, he doesn’t even name the person who allegedly told him.
    Finally, he did not submit this “affidavit” to any court, so it is not “under oath” and he would not be indicted for lying.
    Again another important fact you gloss over. Why? Are facts so lethal to your ilk?

    > AND THAT HE WAS NOT BORN THERE.

    Even if, arguendo, there was no Hawaiian BC for Obama, Tim Adams could never “testify” that Obama was not born there as he has no first-hand knowledge of Obama being born somewhere else.

    > ANYONE WHO LOOKS AT THE KENYA BIRTH CERTIFICATE CAN EASILY TELL THAT IT IS A COPY OF A TRUE ORIGINAL DOCUMENT

    No, by simply “looking” at it, no-one can say that. Just like you birthers need to invent convoluted explanations why Obama’s COLB is allegedly “forged”.

    > IN THE FEW MINUTES IT TOOK TO GET A COPY OF THE ONLY AUTHENTIC BIRTH CERTIFICATE
    FOR obozo , IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE PERSONNEL TO FAKE, FORGE OR
    PHOTOSHOP THE DOCUMENT.

    So the biiiiig conspiracy goofed equally big by not destroying the only document that could positively prove Kenyan birth? And they did not even say “no, you can’t see that”?

    > ALL THE INFORMATION ON IT IS ACCURATE

    Says who? You?

    > YOU CAN SPEND THE
    REST OF YOUR LIFE TRYING TO DISPROVE THE AUTHENTICITY OF THIS DOCUMENT
    AND NEVER ACCOMPLISH YOUR TASK .

    Yes, if I went about it birther-style, in fact I’d never see the truth because I would be blind to it.

    > IT HAS BEEN ADMITTED AS EVIDENCE IN A
    FEDERAL COURT

    That does not make it real. After all, Obama’s COLB has also been accepted as evidence in a federal court. So that makes it real, right?

    > AND A COPY SENT BY CERTIFIED MAIL TO EVERY MEMBER OF THE 111th AND 112th CONGRESS .

    And that makes it legit?

    > VERY SOON THE WHOLE WORLD WILL KNOW
    THE VERACITY OF THIS BONA FIDE DOCUMENT

    Yeah, good luck with that, Skippy.

  33. avatar
    The Magic M March 16, 2011 at 9:57 am #

    Besides, oh dear ALL CAPS ARTIST, do you have anything to say about the kerning argument? Did you even understand it? It should be easy to refute if the “Kenyan BC” is legit, right? Just show us some Kenyan documents from around 1961 that have such kerning in the word “Kenyan”.

    All you’re saying is “lalala I can’t hear you you’re baaaaaad”.

  34. avatar
    G March 16, 2011 at 10:24 am #

    Twinx: I’m curious as to why Smith changed that part of his story. Aren’t you?

    No. Lucas Smith is a known forger and liar, with a history of crazy tales and schemes to his name. He has no credibility whatsover. He’s likely a pathological liar.

    So, why would any sensible person pay any attention to what he says, other than for entertainment purposes only?

    There is no reason to trust or take serious anything he says and no reason to suspect that his answers won’t just continue to change over time. That is what pathological liars do.

  35. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 10:35 am #

    Atticus Finch: The so-called Lucas Smith’s alleged Obama’s Kenya birth certificate will never be introduced as evidence in any trial because the manner of the way Lucas Smith obtained the birth certificate did not comply with the Federal Rules of Evidence, particularly regarding foreign public documents as set forth in Rule 902 (3) of the Federal Rules of Evidence, as provided:

    Is there anything in the FRE about foreign documents obtained through bribery? That’s what this one purports to be.

    One wonders, however, how a contemporary hospital administrator’s signature got onto a historical document obtained by bribery. One would almost have to conclude that Heltan Maganga was the one who accepted the bribe (or that Lucas Smith made up the whole thing).

  36. avatar
    Reality Check March 16, 2011 at 10:38 am #

    I am planning to write a book about Lucas Smith. it will be released on July 4, 2012. I will soon be selling “tickets” for the right to purchase my book on Ebay for $50 each. ;)

  37. avatar
    mari March 16, 2011 at 10:39 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: Dear Dr Conspiracy,As you know I have never posted on blog in the past. I do sometimes read your blog. I don’t agree with much that you have ever written but this latest article about the birth certificate is a disgrace and, other than Corsi’s editorials from 2009, this has got the be one of the most egregiously misguiding articles that I’ve ever read on skeptics website or blog.The author, and supposed expert pressman, wants us to believe that the entire document should have been created on a letter letterpress. The author supplies us with nothing more than his subjective biased, misleading, overreaching, cozen and outright vituperative opinion to back up his claims that the 1961 document template or form should have been created on a letterpress.The truth of the matter is that Offset Lithography became the most popular form of commercial printing in the 1950s. The birth certificate template, of form, was most likely created on an offset lithography printing press.The author wants the reader to believe, on faith, that the birth certificate template, or form, was created in much the same manner that the Guttenberg bible was printed in the 1450s, with tiny little letter, much like those on a typewriter, arranged together on a plate.I am familiar with offset lithography (worked on a huge monster of and older Whelan and also a Komori) and it’s obvious, conspicuously, that birth certificate was created on an offset lithography press and NOT a letterpress.Anonymous email, filed with nothing more than drivel and wholly unsubstantiated claims. This is an all time low.I am posting this on my youtube forum. Let your new blog report stand as a testament to the unethical lengths that skeptics will go to discredit the 1961 CPGH Obama birth certificate.Good night.Lucas D. Smith

    So Lucas, how was Mombasa? Still haven’t seen any proof you ghave ever been in Kenya despite many, many requests. If you don’t want to show the page from your passport, perhaps we can just discuss the city and its environs itself. I am an obot familiar with the city.

    C’mon You, Lucas Smith, show us you’ve been there and just ran into the good Dr on a day he forgot how to spell his name. Happens all the time I’m sure…

  38. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 16, 2011 at 10:41 am #

    Reality Check: I am planning to write a book about Lucas Smith. it will be released on July 4, 2012. I will soon be selling “tickets” for the right to purchase my book on Ebay for $50 each.

    Oh damn!

  39. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 16, 2011 at 10:43 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Is there anything in the FRE about foreign documents obtained through bribery? That’s what this one purports to be.One wonders, however, how a contemporary hospital administrator’s signature got onto a historical document obtained by bribery. One would almost have to conclude that Heltan Maganga was the one who accepted the bribe (or that Lucas Smith made up the whole thing).

    Come on Doc why would a known convicted forger lie about a document he’s obtained? That’s outside the realm of reason. I saw Catch Me If You Can. Leo never did that!!

  40. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 16, 2011 at 10:44 am #

    G: No. Lucas Smith is a known forger and liar, with a history of crazy tales and schemes to his name. He has no credibility whatsover. He’s likely a pathological liar.So, why would any sensible person pay any attention to what he says, other than for entertainment purposes only? There is no reason to trust or take serious anything he says and no reason to suspect that his answers won’t just continue to change over time. That is what pathological liars do.

    Didn’t he post a picture of his supposed travels and it ended up being of south america?

  41. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 10:44 am #

    Lucas D. Smith:
    Dear Dr Conspiracy,

    As you know I have never posted on blog in the past…

    I can appreciate why you don’t post here because if you did you would, no doubt, be peppered with inconvenient questions — like this one:

    In your sworn affidavit, you said: “I had to pay a cash consideration to a Kenyan military officer to look the other way while I obtained the copy of the birth certificate…”

    If this is true, how did the contemporary signature of a chief hospital administrator (albeit the wrong one and misspelled) get onto this copied historical document obtained while a guard looked the other way?

  42. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 16, 2011 at 10:47 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I can appreciate why you don’t post here because if you did you would, no doubt, be peppered with inconvenient questions — like this one:In your sworn affidavit, you said: “I had to pay a cash consideration to a Kenyan military officer to look the other way while I obtained the copy of the birth certificate…”If this is true, how did the contemporary signature of a chief hospital administrator (albeit the wrong one and misspelled) get onto this copied historical document obtained while a guard looked the other way?

    I’m wondering how this supposed military officer got a vital record he shouldn’t have access to in the first place

  43. avatar
    Sef March 16, 2011 at 11:03 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): I’m wondering how this supposed military officer got a vital record he shouldn’t have access to in the first place

    The problem with people who concoct grand stories of their exploits, real or imagined, is they put in too much detail. Too much detail usually leads to easily disproved assertions and the whole house of cards they have attempted to construct comes tumbling down.

  44. avatar
    ASK Esq March 16, 2011 at 11:08 am #

    To All Caps Tapp:
    Nice try at moving goalposts. But nobody has accused anyone at the hospital of forging any documents. We’re accusing known forger Lucas Smith of forging the document. There is no good reason to believe any single part of his story about this document.

  45. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 11:56 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: “As you know I have never posted on blog in the past.

    Lucas Daniel Smith January 10, 2010 at 10:45 am #

    Good morning. I am confirming now that, yes, the Nordkye birth annoucement is listed in the August, 16th 1961 edition of The Honolulu Advertiser. This was confirmed on 01.07.2009 at the California State Library in Sacramento where microfilm going as far back as the 1920s for the said newspaper are on file. I will upload a video presentation soon which documents this finding.

    My earlier statement made on youtube, under video comments of the birth certificate video, was in error. I am an objective person and believe that the facts, no matter what direction they lean towards, need to be published and made record of.

    My earlier statement was never posted on my main forum page, which is my youtube profile page. The statement was posted on the video comments of the birth certificate video which runs rampant with misinformation and disinformation comments posted 24-7 by Obama supporters (Obots). In no case would I consider the video comments page (now over 9600 comments in length) as a place that should be locked upon as a Lucas Smith blog. I rarely post there and the comments there are supplied mostly (more than 50%) by Obama supporters which entail fabricated evidence, half truths and more outright lies than can be found anywhere else on the Internet regarding the Obama birth certificate factor.

    I consider my profile page on Youtube.com/inspectorsmith to be the only true Lucas Daniel Smith blog, or forum, anywhere on the Internet. I caution everyone to please not confuse my profile forum with the video comments page.

    Thank you to all.

    Respectfully,
    Lucas Daniel Smith.

    (emphasis added to highlight the hilarity)

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/01/nordyke-twins-birth-announcement-found/

    The irony meter factory has just hired a third shift to keep up with demand after tens of thousands have just spontaneously exploded violently and vaporized.

    And it was submitted respectfully so he’s got that going for him. :-P

    “Oh what a tangled web we weave,
    When first we practise to deceive!”
    – Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.
    Scottish author & novelist (1771 – 1832)

  46. avatar
    HistorianDude March 16, 2011 at 12:14 pm #

    Why are you yelling, Arnie?

  47. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 12:38 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Unlike just about every article on this site, I didn’t write the main content of this one and so I labeled it as an argument for discussion. We discuss all sorts of arguments, and through the collective expertise of the community, we sometimes come to consensus. On a community like this ad hoc arguments like yours aren’t going gain you much sympathy.

    You claim to have expertise with “offset lithography” and say that the document you provided to Orly Taitz was printed that way. However, you fail to say how offset lithography explains the kerning of “ny” that is probably the central argument of the article. If you have the expertise in this printing technology that you claim, then I would expect you to be able provide this explanation — which you have so far chosen not to do.

    Should you at any time wish explain the “ny” or the generally poor condition of your image in court documents, or anything else, feel free to drop by.

    By the way, you have posted here before:

    http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/01/nordyke-twins-birth-announcement-found/#comment-31592

    I didn’t go into detail explaining the process of Offset Lithography because I didn’t think it was necessary. The author of the email didn’t explain to the readers how a letterpress works either. As a matter of fact I am the one that gave an example for him when I mentioned the Guttenberg Bible being printed in the 1450s. I’ll explain more below and I’ll put it all in easy to understand terms.

    On a letterpress (which hasn’t got much action for long time other than eccentric use) the letters are raised in the same way that they are on a typewriter. In short, you arrange, by hand, and spell out the words that you want printed. In short, for the sake of everyone understanding, paper is stamped with the inked raised letters. The ink sticks to the paper. Some forms of kerning (although it has been done on a letterpress, and yes in the 1950s too) doesn’t usually work on a letterpress because usually each letter is on a small block and how would we get another letter to slide part way onto another of the blocks? Tight kerning and other forms of kerning on a letterpress have been around for a long time and they became popular in the late 1940s.

    On an offset lithograph plate or cylinder there is no ‘raised surface’ on the plate. The plate or cylinder is, in short, an etched drawing on a smooth surface. The drawing was done in a number of ways before computer or web-feed pressed were around. You could create designs and letters by hand or stencil or a hundred other ways. You could, can, manipulate everything in any way that you wish.

    Offset lithograph works because water repels oil (or ink). In short (in simple) both are loaded into the press. One sticks to etches, in degrees, and the other to the smooth areas.

    Lithography printing itself (not offset lithography) has been around BEFORE a letterpress was ever dreamed of.

    Here’s video about lithography itself (not offset) that depicts the basics of lithograph. Offset it the essentially the same other than the addition of a rubber roller and more technically advanced methods of etching the plate or cylinder.

    Btw, the guy that sent you the email ‘claims’, on youtube, to have 35 years experience as a pressman. He is also impartial as he is the associate a fellow youtuber that posts some of the most slanderous and unfounded claims regarding the 1961 CPGH Obama birth certificate. The author of the email added just enough jargon to impress a reader that has no understanding of the history or the methods of the printing press.

    Good day.

    Lucas D. Smith

  48. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 12:39 pm #

    The lithography video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHw5_1Hopsc

  49. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 16, 2011 at 12:46 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: The lithography video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHw5_1Hopsc

    So what kind of Letterpress did you use to make the Certificate?

  50. avatar
    Black Lion March 16, 2011 at 12:49 pm #

    From the birther report site….

    Breaking: Canada Free Press Radio: Lucas Smith Ready to Testify Before Congress About Obama’s Alleged Kenyan Birth Certificate Scandal

    Lucas Daniel Smith, the person that claims he obtained an Obama birth certificate in Mombasa, Kenya called in to the CFP Radio Show hosted by Douglas Hagmann and Judi McLeod. Lucas Smith says he is willing to testify before Congress under oath and under penalty of perjury about Obama’s alleged Kenyan Birth Certificate.

    Commander Charles Kerchner and Attorney Mario Apuzzo were the guests on the show when Smith called in. Commander Kerchner asked Smith if he had received any responses from the elected officials he sent the birth certificate. Smith sent packets to every U.S. Senator and every U.S. Congressman and Smith said he only received 3 letters, a few emails and one phone call. He most likely received the uniformed responses which were based on this garbage here.

    CFP Radio Host and 25 year multi-state licensed private investigator Douglas Hagmann did an excellent job at questioning Lucas Smith about some of the details surrounding the subject. Mr. Hagmann also offered Lucas Smith his services to fully investigate Lucas Smith’s claims and Smith’s documents related to the case.

    I would suggest Lucas Smith take him up on the offer. Let it all be examined by professionals instead of talking-heads and obots.

    http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2011/03/breaking-canada-free-press-radio-lucas.html

  51. avatar
    misha March 16, 2011 at 12:53 pm #

    Reality Check: I am planning to write a book about Lucas Smith. it will be released on July 4, 2012. I will soon be selling “tickets” for the right to purchase my book on Ebay for $50 each.

    No, that’s Ed Hale.

  52. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 12:54 pm #

    Black Lion: Lucas Smith says he is willing to testify before Congress under oath and under penalty of perjury about Obama’s alleged Kenyan Birth Certificate.

    What is the penalty for perjury?

  53. avatar
    Mary Adams March 16, 2011 at 12:54 pm #

    Lucas, why didn’t you look up the weight and length of a real baby? There are plenty of announcements on the web.

    A weight of 7lbs 1 oz and a length of 18 inches = DWARFISM.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarfism

    How can President Obama be the long-legged Mack daddy and be a DWARF?

  54. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 12:54 pm #

    Black Lion: Breaking: Canada Free Press Radio: Lucas Smith Ready to Testify Before Congress About Obama’s Alleged Kenyan Birth Certificate Scandal

    I’d certainly be interested in reading his sworn testimony before Congress. I am not interested in his claims of willingness to testify before Congress.

  55. avatar
    Bill B March 16, 2011 at 12:55 pm #

    You, Lucas Smith, are a liar. A proven, remorseless, repetitive slayer of truth.

    Truth cowers in the corner when you walk into a room.

    At long last, You, Lucas Smith, have you no shame?

  56. avatar
    Bovril March 16, 2011 at 1:04 pm #

    Lucas Smith is simply playing to the (very) cheap seats, he would have more chance of being questioned by Congress if he had said..

    “I, Lucas Smith am willing to testify before Congress under oath and under penalty of perjury about the well know fact the moon is made of green cheese”

  57. avatar
    dunstvangeet March 16, 2011 at 1:15 pm #

    Lucas Smith…

    Dr. Heltan Maganga was asked these following questions:

    1. Were you the Chief Administrator (or acting Chief Administrator) of CPGH on Feb. 19th 2009?

    2. Do the stamp and signature that appear in the attached document appear to be your stamp and signature?

    3. Is the attached CPGH birth certificate representative of what a birth certificate issued by CPGH in 1961 would look like?

    He answered “all [the] questions with a resounding NO!”

    Lucas Smith let me ask you these questions then…

    Why did Dr. Heltan Maganga deny being Chief Administrator or Acting Chief Administrator during the time that he supposedly signed your document? Why does he deny that his signature appears on the birth certificate? Why does he further deny that the document looks like anything that would have been issued by CPGH in 1961?

  58. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 1:19 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Tight kerning and other forms of kerning on a letterpress have been around for a long time and they became popular in the late 1940s.

    Your long distracting comment on printing methods was irrelevant to the question at hand. The one sentence I quoted is the only one that addresses the question and even that adds nothing to the discussion, because you offer nothing to support it.

    I didn’t cite the “pressman’s” credentials because I have no evidence to support them. Whatever his actual qualifications, he raises a substantive objection, and beyond a denial, you haven’t answered them. Further, we aren’t talking about “tight kerning” but an actual overlap of letters.

    We cannot debate the qualifications of an anonymous writer, but we can debate the substance of what he says.

  59. avatar
    Sean March 16, 2011 at 1:21 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith:

    Btw, the guy that sent you the email claims’, on youtube, to have 35 years experience as a pressman.He is also impartial as he is the associate a fellow youtuber that posts some of the most slanderous and unfounded claims regarding the 1961 CPGH Obama birth certificate. The author of the email added just enough jargon to impress a reader that has no understanding of the history or the methods of the printing press.

    That would be me. My pressman associate corrected me, he has 43 years experience in the printing business and currently works in the field. ANY question you have about printing, publishing or layout, he can answer. I was the one poking holes in your fake Kenyan birth certificate on YouTube. You kept criticizing me for only getting my information from the Internet and not doing my own independent research. I was discussing politics with my pressman friend and happened to mention your Kenyan BC. I said that I’d heard a comment somewhere along the line that there was a problem with the font not being old enough, but couldn’t find the reference to substantiate it. He told me to send him the link. What I got back was his first assessment published here. Later in the day he sent me this:

    “This is easy stuff.
    One more easy thing. The rules or the box that surrounds the form has perfect miter cuts or in this case, no miter cuts at all. If this was a real form, made from lead, the norm at the time of this printing, there would be evidence of the 45 degree cut on the corners. In letterpress, a hand miter device is used to make the 45 degree angle cuts in the metal lead rule. I have done many of these, and it is challenging at the least to have no visible miter cut when printing. Usually they don’t line up perfectly. Unless it was for the queen, on perfunctory jobs such as this certificate, I’m sure the craftsman were not too worried about perfect miter cuts, just the next pint of beer.

    These boxes were created on a computer as well. ”

    Your paragraph on lithography suggests this document was etched instead of hand set. Does that sound practical for a government form that has zero ornateness? What would be the point?

  60. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 1:24 pm #

    Mary Adams:
    Lucas, why didn’t you look up the weight and length of a real baby? There are plenty of announcements on the web.

    A weight of 7lbs 1 oz and a length of 18 inches = DWARFISM.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarfism

    How can President Obama be the long-legged Mack daddy and be a DWARF?

    Maybe the forger was really stoned and stalking Keebler elves? It’s just as plausible as that ridiculous piece of BC fiction where a Chief Administrator can’t remember how to spell his own name.

    LinkedIn Profile for Dr. Heltan Maganga:

    Heltan Maganga
    CONSULTANT SURGEON at COAST PROVINCE GEN HOSPITAL
    Kenya | Health, Wellness and Fitness

    http://www.linkedin.com/pub/heltan-maganga/27/980/1b8

    At the 0:14 mark: “DR. HELTAN MAGANGA, CHIEF ADMINISTRATOR – CPGH

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vL2ErPz7Qk&feature=player_embedded

    “In Swahili names are spelled out phonetically. You’ll find that in many places in Africa there is no standard spelling for names, especially when Swahili word and names are spelled out with the Indo-European alphabet. Swahili never had a written form of it’s language until Arabs taught Swahili speakers to spell out Swahili in Arabic and then later when Europeans taught Swahili speakers to spell out Swahili in the Indo-European alphabet.” – InspectorSmith scrambling up a quick excuse.
    http://209.157.64.200/focus/bloggers/2465278/posts?page=324

    Inspector? Really?

  61. avatar
    Rickey March 16, 2011 at 1:27 pm #

    Black Lion:

    CFP Radio Host and 25 year multi-state licensed private investigator Douglas Hagmann did an excellent job at questioning Lucas Smith about some of the details surrounding the subject. Mr. Hagmann also offered Lucas Smith his services to fully investigate Lucas Smith’s claims and Smith’s documents related to the case.

    It looks like Lucas is in good company. Here is what conservative commentator Debbie Schlussel had to say about Douglas Hagmann back in 2006:

    Uh-oh! Fake “Terrorism Expert” Douglas J. Hagmann and his lawyer finally admit that he plagiarized my work. And then, Hagmann–a fake investigator–makes up new information.
    On Wednesday, I posted an item about how phony “terrorism expert” Douglas Hagmann–who is positive that UFOs and Bigfoot exist but knows little else–ripped off my work and presented it as his own. Yes, he and his falsely-named Northeast Intelligence Network (NEIN) a/k/a HomelandSecurityUS are bastions of plagiarism. By stealing my work, he opened a can of worms and keeps stepping in it.

    The guy has no shame. He rips me off and then keeps on whining about it, several days later. It’s like the kid who stole the cookies from the cookie jar and keeps on whining about it when someone caught him. Only that kid is a lot smarter and more deft than Douglas J. Hagmann. His trail of crumbs is a lot less obvious.

    Like the thief-with-chutzpah that he is, Hagmann got mad that I caught him with his pants down. He’s now trying to cover his very exposed rear and can’t.

    First, Hagmann demanded I take the post about his outright theft of my work down. Then, he threatened to sue me, claiming he got the information he plagiarized from me from “news sources” and “a federal source.” Of course, he would never sue because we would depose him and force him to produce the non-existent sources. And he’d have to admit the extremely obvious–that I’m the only one from whom he got the info.

    Then, he had his silly “lawyer” send me an e-mail in which he basically admitted that his client, Douglas Hagmann, stole my work but that he gave me tiny credit for “developing the same information” that he ripped off from me. So that makes the theft okay. Right?

    I have reviewed what you have reported . . . and I believe he has adequately given credit.

    Ri-i-i-i-ight. If Hagmann had only resisted the urge to rip off others and had given me proper credit, I’d never have had a reason to expose him as the uber fraud that he is–something I’ve been hearing about for years. But now, his continuing lying and fabricating of information is betraying his phoniness even more.

    In a post today, Hagmann admits he’s a plagiarist. He names a number of plagiarists and then states, “I am in good company.” I’m so glad he’s finally told the truth and admitted it. But he still has not changed the entry he stole from me–neither crediting me with the work he shop-lifted, and printing a retraction.

    Then, there is the new information that Hagmann makes up. His fabricating skills show us in spades what kind of “investigator” he is. As in, one who can’t even read English and is too lazy to do any real work. Apparently, when he is forced to do his own work instead of stealing it from others, it’s kinda tough for him to perform. No wonder the apparent UFO/Bigfoot afficionado quit “working” as a private investigator. Who would hire him?

    Hagmann claims that I said that MSNBC’s Monica Crowley and the Boston Globe’s Jeff Jacoby and Cathy Young stole my work. That’s libelous. In fact, I never said any such thing. He’d know that–if he bothered to do real research instead of the phony tripe suckers read on his site.

    In August 1999, the Wall Street Journal apologized for running an article about Nixon by Monica Crowley four days earlier, because Crowley plagiarized the whole thing from Commentary Magazine’s Paul Johnson. Details, by Tim Noah (a REAL investigator), are here and here. Hey Douglas Hagmann, last time I checked my name is not Paul. Some “investigator” you are.
    In 2000, Boston Globe columnist Jeff Jacoby was caught plagiarizing an internet article apparently written by Rush Limbaugh’s grandfather, detailing the fates of the signers of the Declaration of Independence. The Globe suspended Jacoby for four months for the plagiarism. Not only did I never accuse Jeff of plagiarism (and certainly not of lifting my work), I made the mistake of defending him. Hey Doug Hagmann, last time I checked, I’m not Rush Limbaugh’s grandfather, either. Nice “investigation.” Bravo.

    Then, there is Cathy Young. In 2000, she was caught “writing” a column in The Detroit News, half of which was plagiarized from a USA Today editorial written by Duane Frees. Yes, I’m the one who caught her plagiarism of someone else’s writing, and Frees was not too happy she stole his research and work. Young also ripped off a column of my own, not long after. People who plagiarize, like Cathy Young–AND DOUGLAS HAGMANN–don’t just do it once. It’s a lifetime career of intellectual property theft.

    Finally, there is Jerome Corsi, who admitted to plagiarizing a column of mine on Neil Bush–reworking the words and “writing” it three days later. Just like Doug Hagmann. Corsi was caught not by me, but by Radio Talk Show Host Pat Campbell, on whose show Corsi had appeared, peddling my hard work as his own. That’s the same Pat Campbell that Hagmann features on his site. So, Doug, are you calling Pat a liar? I’m sure he’d find that very interesting.
    These are all the plagiarists, whom plagiarist and now-fabricator Douglas J. Hagmann says he is like and with whom he claims he is “in good company.”

    Douglas Hagmann, plagiarist, fabricator, and defender of fellow plagiarists. Well, if the shoe fits . . . . Don’t waste your time at the Northeast Plagiarism Network. Or is that, the Northeast Fabrication Network?

    ****
    Douglas Hagmann is upset that I write movie reviews. I can’t help it if I have multiple talents, while he has just one–plagiarism. Or two–plagiarism AND fabricating information. I can see how it would bum him out that despite my concentration in many areas, I get many interviews and a lot of recognition for my work on terrorism. Yet, he gets very little. Must be tough. Green is your color, Doug.

    http://www.debbieschlussel.com/2300/uh-oh-northeast-intelligence-network-steps-in-it-fake-terrorism-expert-douglas-hagmann-admits-plagiarism-fabricated-info/

  62. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 1:30 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): I’m wondering how this supposed military officer got a vital record he shouldn’t have access to in the first place

    I understand this part. Read Smith’s affidavit.

    The President of Kenya who is Obama’s cousin (not really) ordered the hospital records sealed (not really), and placed a military guard at the hospital to make sure no one got into the file cabinet where Obama’s certificate rests (not really). Smith claimed to have bribed the guard to look the other way while he copied the 1961 document.

    So Smith took his sneaked copy up to the office of the Chief Administrator of the hospital and asked him to autograph it.

    I was going to say “this is where the story breaks down,” but the story broke down before it started.

  63. avatar
    Howling Coyote March 16, 2011 at 1:33 pm #

    It seems I have put Mr. Smith’s panties in a bunch. My friend asked me to weigh in on Mr. Smith’s alleged Obama birth certificate. Having been in the printing and graphics industry for about 43 years, I do have some credibility and am not some LOSER off the street that Mr. Smith would like you to believe.

    You question my expertise…. For my street cred, I am well versed in all aspects of letterpress printing. Starting at 14 years of age, I have owned Linotypes, Intertypes, Ludlows, handset type, presses of all shapes and sizes, Heidelbergs, Miehles, Chandler and Price, Kluge, etc. I have printed everything from business cards, forms, brochures, album covers, books, wine labels, posters, diecut, embossed, foil stamped, kiss cut, you name it. Then there is the offset side…..again, Heidelberg, Komori, Multigraph, Hamada, Harris, Miehle. At the tender age of 16 I worked for an offset newspaper where I learned how to shoot film, halftones, use strike-on varitypers, phototypositors, strip film, flats, and whatever else needed done. And now in digital, I have been on a Mac for the last 15 years. And, yes, I have enough Photoshop/design experience to fool the experienced eye as well. And, one more thing, I have never been convicted or jailed for any felonys.

    It is not my usual modus operandi to follow nonsense like this, so when Mr. Smith asks why out-of-the-blue, I show up and debunk him after his document has been around for 2 years, well, I’m not in the debunking business. I’m just saying that his purported “authentic document” has issues. Perhaps he can answer them, perhaps not. But it does negate his document’s authenticity if the allegation cannot be explained or disproven.

    Instead of arguing his case, and in typical “I won’t debate this, but I’ll call you a name” fashion, Mr. Smith fails to respond to the point I made. The word Kenya at the top of the document contains kerned letters that were not commonplace during the late 1950’s. This type of kerning is what computers do on a daily basis now. Not back in the 50’s or early 60’s. An experienced craftsman with a good saw, could merge letters closer, but not as close as his ny appear on this certificate.

    Whether this was printed on an offset press or letterpress, does not explain away the kerning of these two letters. Or the additional instances of this type of kerning contained in the document. Most typesetting done during that period was hot metal, meaning, set from either linotype slugs or handset from a job case. If it was printed offset, the hot metal would be proofed and turned into a negative from which an offset plate would be created. Photocomposition was in it’s infancy during the 1950’s and utilitarian forms such as this certificate, (given it’s plain and un-ornate look) would have been relegated to the run of the mill job shop typesetting dept or hot metal guys.

    Mr. Smith, these lowly two letters are only a smattering of what is inaccurate about your document. The embossed seal at the bottom is very inconsistent with the official seals of that time period. It is so plain, and deliberately boring, that no self-respecting engraver would have allowed that released in public. And to leave the word SEAL in the middle of the SEAL is such a Homer ‘Doh’ moment, one can only think that we’re all being punked.

    Mr. Smith, I suggest you submit your document to a respectable Library or University, and have them identify and date the printing of this certificate to give you a leg to stand on. Passing around a 10th generation copy as “the real deal” is beyond disingenious.

    My 2 cents.

    Howling Coyote

  64. avatar
    Sef March 16, 2011 at 1:34 pm #

    Do people think that Lucas did this forgery on his own, or was it contracted? If he was paid to do this, I wonder what his employer thinks of the obviously fake and so easily discredited result. The really funny thing is that now they cannot produce another one and say it is the real one after all their investment in this one.

  65. avatar
    brygenon March 16, 2011 at 1:44 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: One wonders, however, how a contemporary hospital administrator’s signature got onto a historical document obtained by bribery. One would almost have to conclude that Heltan Maganga was the one who accepted the bribe (or that Lucas Smith made up the whole thing).

    Obviously Smith’s story is nonsense. He had the advantage of an extremely gullible target market, but last I heard no one was willing to pay what he was asking for his creation.

    On the other hand, the analysis in the article here is unconvincing. The ‘nail’ where the bottom of the ‘y’ juts under the ‘n’ looks like one of the many smudges. I Googled up some scans, and I cannot tell the best ‘ny’ kerning of 1961 from the kerning in modern type. There’s nothing weird or suspicious about a well-inked typewriter ribbon, and in my lay opinion the characters are far from perfect.

    I’m guessing it burned Lucas Smith inside that he couldn’t write, “Ha! Wrong you fools! I really did use a typewriter to fill in my form.”

  66. avatar
    Sef March 16, 2011 at 1:46 pm #

    There was a server failure when I posted this earlier, so my apologies if this is a duplicate.

    Do people think that Lucas created this forgery on his own or do you think he was paid to do it? If paid, I wonder what his employer thinks of this so easily discredited and obvious forgery. The really funny thing about this “BC” is that they cannot now produce another one which they say is the “real one” after so much investment in this one. They really are masters at screwing themselves.

  67. avatar
    Sean March 16, 2011 at 2:21 pm #

    Sef:
    Do people think that Lucas did this forgery on his own, or was it contracted? If he was paid to do this, I wonder what his employer thinks of the obviously fake and so easily discredited result.The really funny thing is that now they cannot produce another one and say it is the real one after all their investment in this one.

    I’m willing to let Mr. Smith correct his mistakes and come back. I think we owe it to him.

  68. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 16, 2011 at 2:38 pm #

    Howling Coyote: It seems I have put Mr. Smith’s panties in a bunch. My friend asked me to weigh in on Mr. Smith’s alleged Obama birth certificate. Having been in the printing and graphics industry for about 43 years, I do have some credibility and am not some LOSER off the street that Mr. Smith would like you to believe. You question my expertise…. For my street cred, I am well versed in all aspects of letterpress printing. Starting at 14 years of age, I have owned Linotypes, Intertypes, Ludlows, handset type, presses of all shapes and sizes, Heidelbergs, Miehles, Chandler and Price, Kluge, etc. I have printed everything from business cards, forms, brochures, album covers, books, wine labels, posters, diecut, embossed, foil stamped, kiss cut, you name it. Then there is the offset side…..again, Heidelberg, Komori, Multigraph, Hamada, Harris, Miehle. At the tender age of 16 I worked for an offset newspaper where I learned how to shoot film, halftones, use strike-on varitypers, phototypositors, strip film, flats, and whatever else needed done. And now in digital, I have been on a Mac for the last 15 years. And, yes, I have enough Photoshop/design experience to fool the experienced eye as well. And, one more thing, I have never been convicted or jailed for any felonys. It is not my usual modus operandi to follow nonsense like this, so when Mr. Smith asks why out-of-the-blue, I show up and debunk him after his document has been around for 2 years, well, I’m not in the debunking business. I’m just saying that his purported “authentic document” has issues. Perhaps he can answer them, perhaps not. But it does negate his document’s authenticity if the allegation cannot be explained or disproven. Instead of arguing his case, and in typical “I won’t debate this, but I’ll call you a name” fashion, Mr. Smith fails to respond to the point I made. The word Kenya at the top of the document contains kerned letters that were not commonplace during the late 1950’s. This type of kerning is what computers do on a daily basis now. Not back in the 50’s or early 60’s. An experienced craftsman with a good saw, could merge letters closer, but not as close as his ny appear on this certificate.Whether this was printed on an offset press or letterpress, does not explain away the kerning of these two letters. Or the additional instances of this type of kerning contained in the document. Most typesetting done during that period was hot metal, meaning, set from either linotype slugs or handset from a job case. If it was printed offset, the hot metal would be proofed and turned into a negative from which an offset plate would be created. Photocomposition was in it’s infancy during the 1950’s and utilitarian forms such as this certificate, (given it’s plain and un-ornate look) would have been relegated to the run of the mill job shop typesetting dept or hot metal guys. Mr. Smith, these lowly two letters are only a smattering of what is inaccurate about your document. The embossed seal at the bottom is very inconsistent with the official seals of that time period. It is so plain, and deliberately boring, that no self-respecting engraver would have allowed that released in public. And to leave the word SEAL in the middle of the SEAL is such a Homer ‘Doh’ moment, one can only think that we’re all being punked. Mr. Smith, I suggest you submit your document to a respectable Library or University, and have them identify and date the printing of this certificate to give you a leg to stand on. Passing around a 10th generation copy as “the real deal” is beyond disingenious. My 2 cents. Howling Coyote

    Howling its nice to see you here. Look forward to your contributions.

  69. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 2:52 pm #

    And people say that ‘birthers’ are crazy. Read some of the comments this blog and it becomes apparent that follows of Dr Conspiracy (and Dr Conspiracy himself) and not interested in serious debate. After I specifically answered the Dr’s questions he pretend (unless he is truly ignorant) that I have not answered his questions.

    Let me make it clear for you, overlapping kerning ONLY BECOMES A PROBLEM when things are created on a letterpress? Is that clear now that I’ve put in words that a 12 year can understand? Furthermore, overlapping kerning on a letterpress (which only an eccentric uses nowadays) is possible on a letterpress in the 1950s although I wouldn’t say that it’s standard.

    Overlapping kerning on a lithography press is not a problem. You could run letters right through other letter and then put a picture of a money eating banana over it.

    As for the phonetic spelling of Swahili names in Latin, if you any argues that this is not true then you are inept for this debate.

    Speaking of administrator Othigo. Her name has been spelled in more different ways then Magangas. Sometimes Othigo even changes her names entirely. Is it Merry or Mary? And is is Janet, Janice or Jenniffer, Jeniffer, Jenipher? And is it Othigo or Othiga?

    I rest my case. I will not post again here.

  70. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 2:58 pm #

    “I will not post again here.”

    Don’t forget to take your toys with you. :roll:

    What’s the penalty of perjury for a convicted felon and forger?

  71. avatar
    Sef March 16, 2011 at 2:59 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I rest my case.

    Reminds me of my time on a jury when the prosecutor provided ample proof & the defense did not bring any witnesses. Easy decision.

  72. avatar
    Mary Adams March 16, 2011 at 3:00 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I will not post again here.

    I’m sure you won’t. You’ve been beaten – badly.

    You’ll just crawl back under your YouTube rock where you ban any truth.

    I’d love to hear your explanation for the weight and length of the supposed baby Obama that are so far from normal that the person would have to have some form of dwarfism.

  73. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 3:01 pm #

    Why can’t the “Inspector” [snicker] prove he’s ever been to Kenya and especially at the time claimed?

    Curious, don’t you think?

  74. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 3:04 pm #

    Mary Adams: I’m sure you won’t. You’ve been beaten – badly.

    You’ll just crawl back under your YouTube rock where you ban any truth.

    I’d love to hear your explanation for the weight and length of the supposed baby Obama that are so far from normal that the person would have to have some form of dwarfism.

    Or why Dr. Heltan Maganga would misspell his name on his own LinkedIn profile.

    Or why the Post and Email’s Jim Bryne claims to have received an e-mail from Dr. Heltan Maganga stating, “The answers to all your questions is a resounding NO.” when asked:

    1. Were you the Chief Administrator (or acting Chief Administrator) of CPGH on Feb. 19th 2009?

    2. Do the stamp and signature that appear in the attached document appear to be your stamp and signature?

    3. Is the attached CPGH birth certificate representative of what a birth certificate issued by CPGH in 1961 would look like?

  75. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 3:07 pm #

    ” . . . if you any argues that this is not true then you are inept for this debate.”

    Inept?

    They just can’t build irony meters fast enough.

  76. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 16, 2011 at 3:08 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: And people say that birthers’ are crazy. Read some of the comments this blog and it becomes apparent that follows of Dr Conspiracy (and Dr Conspiracy himself) and not interested in serious debate. After I specifically answered the Dr’s questions he pretend (unless he is truly ignorant) that I have not answered his questions.Let me make it clear for you, overlapping kerning ONLY BECOMES A PROBLEM when things are created on a letterpress? Is that clear now that I’ve put in words that a 12 year can understand? Furthermore, overlapping kerning on a letterpress (which only an eccentric uses nowadays) is possible on a letterpress in the 1950s although I wouldn’t say that it’s standard.Overlapping kerning on a lithography press is not a problem. You could run letters right through other letter and then put a picture of a money eating banana over it.As for the phonetic spelling of Swahili names in Latin, if you any argues that this is not true then you are inept for this debate.Speaking of administrator Othigo. Her name has been spelled in more different ways then Magangas. Sometimes Othigo even changes her names entirely. Is it Merry or Mary? And is is Janet, Janice or Jenniffer, Jeniffer, Jenipher? And is it Othigo or Othiga?I rest my case. I will not post again here.

    Your idea of serious debate is to swallow the forgery you made without any questions about its authenticity. It makes me wonder how you handled prison life. Did you crawl into a corner when people picked on you and cry? So how did you create the overlapping letters on a lithography press? Ummm Speaking of Maganga’s name. How do you explain away that Maganga said he wasn’t administrator at that time, the document you have isn’t the standard used then and that wasn’t his signature?

  77. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 3:10 pm #

    ” I will not move the goalposts again here.”

    FIFY. And not that I believe you anyway. After all, you’ve never posted here before, right?

    :-P

  78. avatar
    JoZeppy March 16, 2011 at 3:15 pm #

    I really don’t know enough typesetting and printing methods to add anything. For me to buy into it, would make me no better than the birthers accepting annonomous “expert opinions” (although in the case of Polland and techdude, they were debunked by a real expert, who let his name be known). That said, there is already so much wrong with the Smith birth certificate, that we don’t need any additional reason to reject it. The fact that it is being offered by a convicted forger who tried to sell it on ebay should be enough. Add to that the technical problems anyone with two brain cells firing would find suspicious (the tall tale, refusal to prove he was even ever in kenya, misspelling of name, bad date format, generic “seal”, the real COLB from Hawaii, and the list goes on), I really see no reason to dwell on “ny.”

    How many reasons do we really need to reject out of hand a bad forgery, offered by a convicted forger, with no evidence to support his claims?

  79. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 3:28 pm #

    JoZeppy: How many reasons do we really need to reject out of hand a bad forgery, offered by a convicted forger, with no evidence to support his claims?

    In other words, it’s birther gold.

  80. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 3:35 pm #

    “Im sending you $200 tomorrow which you can apply to your delinquent property on your house in Iowa.”
    – Metropolisonthehill
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkWd2INPhL4

    Having money troubles “Inspector”? What goes up on eBay next? Footage of Bigfoot?

  81. avatar
    Sean March 16, 2011 at 3:52 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith:

    Let me make it clear for you, overlapping kerning ONLY BECOMES A PROBLEM when things are created on a letterpress?Is that clear now that I’ve put in words that a 12 year can understand?Furthermore, overlapping kerning on a letterpress (which only an eccentric uses nowadays) is possible on a letterpress in the 1950s although I wouldn’t say that it’s standard.

    Overlapping kerning on a lithography press is not a problem.You could run letters right through other letter and then put a picture of a money eating banana over it.

    Here’s the problem you gloss over: to do lithography, you need an original document to start off with. How were the characters created? How were they originally put on paper. You say something about etching, but do you understand how expensive and time consuming that is, especially for a plain hum drum document? The answer for 1961 is letterpress. That’s just how the words got on the page. Each letter is on a rectangular lead block. Sometimes two letters are on one block to make the word flow better (as illustrated in the pic above of the ligature “fi”. But these are rare and there is no ligature for the combination “ny.” But “ny” is just an example. You need to look no further than the other side of that “y” to see the “a” next to it is nuzzled underneath the right hand side of the “y.” A quick test for this is simply to draw a vertical line between the letters and ask yourself if anything is cut off. This can only be done on a computer.

  82. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 4:10 pm #

    Would a sane person try to sell his own kidney? Why would someone try to pass of footage of Jamaicans as Kenyans?

    How difficult is it to show a receipt for a round trip plane ticket or the boarding pass, visa stamp in a passport or a Kenyan customs stamp with an entry and exit date?

  83. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 4:12 pm #

    From the beginning I have been a little uncomfortable with this article. Its back story is that this professional pressman looked over the document, spotted some obvious problems, and noted them. However, as Lucas Smith points out, there is unnecessary jargon scattered around that seems to be there just to add credibility to the story. My alarm bells went off instantly.

    The reason I posted the story, however, is that regardless of whoever wrote it, and whatever their qualifications are, there are specific claims made that should be confirmable or refutable:

    1) The typeface is Adobe Caslon (a modern variant of Caslon nonexistent in 1961).
    2) There is an “ny” ligature that wouldn’t have been plausibly available prior to digital typography.

    So far, I have not been able to learn enough to verify the first claim. However, assuming the Smith Certificate is of sufficient quality, one should be able to verify or refute the claim.

    Any one can see what looks like an “ny” ligature. I have not yet found a book printed in the late 1950’s printed with Caslon, but I haven’t given up on that. One old book I did find in a different typeface did not have the “ny” ligature.

    I think it’s nice that we have a research project that has a chance of going somewhere.

  84. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 4:13 pm #

    Majority Will: How difficult is it to show a receipt for a round trip plane ticket or the boarding pass, visa stamp in a passport or a Kenyan customs stamp with an entry and exit date?

    You are asking a forger for documentary evidence? Think about it.

  85. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 4:15 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: You are asking a forger for documentary evidence? Think about it.

    Implied rhetorical. ;-)

  86. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 16, 2011 at 4:22 pm #

    Majority Will: “Im sending you $200 tomorrow which you can apply to your delinquent property on your house in Iowa.”- Metropolisonthehillhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkWd2INPhL4Having money troubles “Inspector”? What goes up on eBay next? Footage of Bigfoot?

    Proof of the female orgasm

  87. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 16, 2011 at 4:24 pm #

    Majority Will: Would a sane person try to sell his own kidney? Why would someone try to pass of footage of Jamaicans as Kenyans? How difficult is it to show a receipt for a round trip plane ticket or the boarding pass, visa stamp in a passport or a Kenyan customs stamp with an entry and exit date?

    Because in birther world black people all look the same

  88. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 4:27 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: And people say that birthers’ are crazy. Read some of the comments this blog and it becomes apparent that follows of Dr Conspiracy (and Dr Conspiracy himself) and not interested in serious debate. After I specifically answered the Dr’s questions he pretend (unless he is truly ignorant) that I have not answered his questions.

    Let me make it clear for you, overlapping kerning ONLY BECOMES A PROBLEM when things are created on a letterpress? Is that clear now that I’ve put in words that a 12 year can understand? Furthermore, overlapping kerning on a letterpress (which only an eccentric uses nowadays) is possible on a letterpress in the 1950s although I wouldn’t say that it’s standard.

    Overlapping kerning on a lithography press is not a problem. You could run letters right through other letter and then put a picture of a money eating banana over it.

    As for the phonetic spelling of Swahili names in Latin, if you any argues that this is not true then you are inept for this debate.

    Speaking of administrator Othigo. Her name has been spelled in more different ways then Magangas. Sometimes Othigo even changes her names entirely. Is it Merry or Mary? And is is Janet, Janice or Jenniffer, Jeniffer, Jenipher? And is it Othigo or Othiga?

    I rest my case. I will not post again here.

    You answered some of the questions, but none of them to my satisfaction.

    You really glossed over (or perhaps “blustered over” is the better phrase) the “ny” ligature. You made irrelevant comments about printing methods, but failed to provide any plausible explanation of the typesetting.

    Second, you didn’t answer objections about a really abnormal weight/length ratio for the baby.

    Third, you didn’t touch the question as to how Heltan Maganga’s signature from 2009 got on 48-year-old document that was obtained by you directly from the files and not through any official agency of the hospital.

    As for the abuse from other commenters here, it comes with the territory. I would have thought you’d be used to it by now; I am.

  89. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 4:50 pm #

    I think someone should notify Ripley’s that a 6 foot 1 inch, 180 lb. dwarf is living in the White House.

    Believe it.

  90. avatar
    misha March 16, 2011 at 5:58 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I will not post again here.

    Noooo…please let us hear more. This is fascinating – and you keep us entertained.

  91. avatar
    Sef March 16, 2011 at 6:05 pm #

    I made a quick attempt to create a CPGH document using MS Word 2007 on XP and the fonts Adobe Caslon Pro, & ITC Caslon. I was not successful in duplicating the appearance of the document. Perhaps it was done on a different word processor/platform. The font does look very similar to Caslon, but not identical. I’m using the OTF fonts from Adobe Fontfolio V11. The fi ligature does not seem to be available.

  92. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 6:10 pm #

    Sef:
    I made a quick attempt to create a CPGH document using MS Word 2007 on XP and the fonts Adobe Caslon Pro, & ITC Caslon.I was not successful in duplicating the appearance of the document.Perhaps it was done on a different word processor/platform. The font does look very similar to Caslon, but not identical.I’m using the OTF fonts from Adobe Fontfolio V11. The fi ligature does not seem to be available.

    It’s real easy to customize fonts in an infinite number of ways.

    “Easy yet powerful font editor

    With Fontographer 5, it’s easy to design new typefaces and to customize existing fonts, and the result will be high-quality fonts that can reliably work across different operating systems.

    Create new fonts

    Customize existing fonts, add extra characters

    Fine-tune spacing and kerning

    Fix problems in bad fonts

    Convert old fonts to a new format”

    http://www.fontlab.com/font-editor/fontographer/

  93. avatar
    Sef March 16, 2011 at 6:14 pm #

    Majority Will: It’s real easy to customize fonts in an infinite number of ways.

    Yes, I know that, but my attempt was a Q&D.

  94. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 6:28 pm #

    Sef: Yes, I know that, but my attempt was a Q&D.

    I figured as much. I’m not accustomed to doing anything Q&D in the print world! :-)

  95. avatar
    James M March 16, 2011 at 6:34 pm #

    I think it might be an insult to any hot-type typesetters who may still be living, to suggest that they wouldn’t mortise an “ny” ligature. The folks who did typesetting or even Linotype in some cases were *artisans* who would generally be very proud of their craft.

    It’s true that foundry collections didn’t usually include many ligatures, but that doesn’t mean the “ny” kerning was impossible.

    I am absolutely not trying to give any weight to the Smith forgery, just suggesting that we not underestimate the talent and motivation of typesetters of an only recently bygone era.

  96. avatar
    obsolete March 16, 2011 at 7:11 pm #

    Still doesn’t explain the baby “footy” which a Freeper found for sale on a clip art site. The birthers, in their infinite wisdom, decided that the clip art site must have lifted the footy from the birth certificate in order to sell it.

  97. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 7:26 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    From the beginning I have been a little uncomfortable with this article. Its back story is that this professional pressman looked over the document, spotted some obvious problems, and noted them. However, as Lucas Smith points out, there is unnecessary jargon scattered around that seems to be there just to add credibility to the story. My alarm bells went off instantly.

    The reason I posted the story, however, is that regardless of whoever wrote it, and whatever their qualifications are, there are specific claims made that should be confirmable or refutable:

    1) The typeface is Adobe Caslon (a modern variant of Caslon nonexistent in 1961).
    2) There is an “ny” ligature that wouldn’t have been plausibly available prior to digital typography.

    So far, I have not been able to learn enough to verify the first claim. However, assuming the Smith Certificate is of sufficient quality, one should be able to verify or refute the claim.

    Any one can see what looks like an “ny” ligature. I have not yet found a book printed in the late 1950′s printed with Caslon, but I haven’t given up on that. One old book I did find in a different typeface did not have the “ny” ligature.

    I think it’s nice that we have a research project that has a chance of going somewhere.

    Being that Dr Conspiracy is now conducting this research project in at least a semi-objective fashion I hereby withdraw my earlier statement, specifically the segment which states that I am done posting on this blog. I love research projects.

    I have in my personal possession a 1966 (published first in 1964 in Great Britain) book which features overlapping kerning of the following combination “Du” and a “ty” and an “Fa” on the front cover of the book.

    I’ve uploaded, to my Patriot1980 scribd account, a color PDF of the book cover and the publishing information listed inside of the book:

    “1966: The Desert’s Dusty Face: Personal Story of an Englishman’s ten years as a District Commisioner in Kenya. By Charles Chenevix Trench”

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/50898683/1966-The-Desert-s-Dusty-Face-Personal-Story-of-an-Englishman-s-ten-years-as-a-District-Commisioner-in-Kenya-By-Charles-Chenevix-Trench

    The cover of the book was created on an offset lithography press.

    Furthermore, I present the following (which my friend Bsteadman1 found today):

    “Kenya Books and Newspapers Act” — Commencement: 19th July 1960
    page 2, Interpretation

    “print”
    “means produce or reproduce words or pictures in visible form by printing, writing, typewriting, duplicating, cyclostyling, LITHOGRAPHY, photography or any other mode of representing them in visible form, but does not include the representation of words or pictures by means of cinematography or television; (caps emphasis added)

    – It appears that ‘lithography’ as a means of commercial printing, was well established in Kenya at least as far back as 1960.
    – To view the article, Google search for ["kenya books and newspapers act" 1960]

  98. avatar
    Sean March 16, 2011 at 7:27 pm #

    obsolete:
    Still doesn’t explain the baby “footy” which a Freeper found for sale on a clip art site. The birthers, in their infinite wisdom, decided that the clip art site must have lifted the footy from the birth certificate in order to sell it.

    Just out of my own curiosity, does anyone have the link to that clip art page?

  99. avatar
    misha March 16, 2011 at 7:33 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I hereby withdraw my earlier statement, specifically the segment which states that I am done posting on this blog.

    Lucas: what felonies and misdemeanors have you been convicted of?

  100. avatar
    Scientist March 16, 2011 at 7:34 pm #

    Lucas, I am glad you are still here. I am willing to believe that your certificate could be real. I am also convinced that the Hawaiian birth certificate is genuine. This may seem like a dilemma, but, in fact, it isn’t. The simple conclusion is that Obama was born in both Hawaii and Kenya. How can that be, you ask? Well, this is not so unprecedented. Two previous Presidents, Jimmy Carter and George Bush, Jr. claimed they were born again. So now we have a third. Of course, under US law, the birth in Hawaii takes precedence over any possible births \in Kenya.

  101. avatar
    misha March 16, 2011 at 7:43 pm #

    Scientist: under US law, the birth in Hawaii takes precedence over any possible births \in Kenya.

    Also, any divine births. Or this: God told me to invade Iraq. – GW Bush

  102. avatar
    Sean March 16, 2011 at 7:51 pm #

    Lucas, book covers and movie posters don’t count. Those are meant to catch the eye to buy that product. What we’re talking about is simple typeface in a government document or the layout of a simple printed page in a book. The book I’m reading now(published last year) uses the Caslon font and sure enough the y’s hang under the n’s.

    Let’s see that in 1961.

  103. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny March 16, 2011 at 7:56 pm #

    Majority Will: But he wouldn’t lie for Orly. Go figure.

    Simple. Orly is a miser.

  104. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 8:04 pm #

    Sean: a receipt for a round trip plane ticket or the boarding pass, visa stamp in a passport or a Kenyan customs stamp with an entry and exit date?

    Rather than quibble over typography, let’s see his receipt for a round trip plane ticket or the boarding pass, visa stamp in a passport or a Kenyan customs stamp with an entry and exit date.

    How long does it take to forge any of those things better than one of the obsessive, compulsive, pathological liar’s bad checks?

    And the incredibly desperate for money birther still hasn’t explained how a 6 foot 1 inch, 180 lb. dwarf is living in the White House.

    And how exactly did Heltan Maganga’s signature from 2009 get on a 48-year-old document that was obtained Ludlum style directly from the files and not through any official agency of the hospital?

    Serious enough? As serious as a kidney transplant?

  105. avatar
    Howling Coyote March 16, 2011 at 8:10 pm #

    I examined Mr. Lucas’ big find and sure, the display lettering for the book cover is kerned. So…… That does not prove anything. Larger font sizes were a lot easier to manipulate than the 10pt size in your document. You state the cover was printed offset, so the hot metal proof this was struck from was altered. Been there, done that.

    Lots of printers are craftsman, and yes could spend wee hours into the morning hand filing a couple of letters of 10pt. type. But they didn’t, and they wouldn’t. Not for you not for me.

    The only way you could half save your butt at this point, would be to prove that the certificate was engraved. Expert engravers could modify letterforms and create nuances in lettering. BUT, since your COPY and is just that…. a tenth generation COPY, you have no proof dude. And like I stated before, the font resembles Adobe Caslon Bold. And that did not exist in 1960.

    Have a nice day.

  106. avatar
    Northland10 March 16, 2011 at 8:21 pm #

    I ran back to the purported 1961 era Kenyan Birth Certificate posted by WND (not Obama’s). Sure enough, the Y does not hang under the T in Nationality or in the typewritten spot where it says Kenyan. I cannot attest to the actual validity of the Birth Certificate posted by WNDm but, as it was used to debunk the Bomford and the Smith BCs, to me, it gains a little credibility (I mean, really, they are debunking supposed evidence against Obama. It would seem odd that they would make a fake to debunk evidence that supports them).

    It truly is a weird world where I find WND helpful in debunking birthers.

    http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=106135

  107. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 8:23 pm #

    Sean:
    Lucas, book covers and movie posters don’t count. Those are meant to catch the eye to buy that product. What we’re talking about is simple typeface in a government document or the layout of a simple printed page in a book. The book I’m reading now(published last year)uses the Caslon font and sure enough the y’s hang under the n’s.

    Let’s see that in 1961.

    What are you talking about? Don’t try to wiggle out now like a small worm. The book cover is from 1966. And the book, ABOUT KENYA, was published first in 1964 in Great Britain.

    Why would you tell me about a book that YOU are reading that was published LAST YEAR? Such remarks are telltale signs of a person that will say anything as filler, sort of like the bulk of the email in this original article.

    Do you see the price on the book cover that scanned in? $3.95. The book and it’s cover are from 1966 and probably the same as the 1964.

    What, now 1964 is not good enough?

    Everything that you are saying now is subjective. And now you admit that overlapping kerning is possible, just not in simple type face? Get your story straight.

    Now that I’ve supplied a tangible 1966 source, moreover a book about Kenya written by a guy that spent at least 10 years in Kenya, which displays overlapping kerning, it is now you peoples turn to cough up some tangible evidence which says that this was impossible.

    And please provide proof that the 1961 CPGH birth certificate template was created in the same manner that ‘simple printed page in a book’ would be created. You know, I’m not sure that ‘footprint’ is really a real footprint (although it could be). There’s a good chance that this was design that was created on the offset lithography press.

    Get your story straight, provide evidence to back up your claims and please no more flip-flopping, i.e., don’t mislead the readers by saying that something is impossible and the later change your story to it’s only impossible if you use a press that cant create it. What sort of logic is that?

    Deal with it. Hurts a little doesn’t it?

  108. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 8:25 pm #

    Howling Coyote:
    I examined Mr. Lucas’ big find and sure, the display lettering for the book cover is kerned. So…… That does not prove anything. Larger font sizes were a lot easier to manipulate than the 10pt size in your document. You state the cover was printed offset, so the hot metal proof this was struck from was altered. Been there, done that.

    Lots of printers are craftsman, and yes could spend wee hours into the morning hand filing a couple of letters of 10pt. type. But they didn’t, and they wouldn’t.Not for you not for me.

    The only way you could half save your butt at this point, would be to prove that the certificate was engraved. Expert engravers could modify letterforms and create nuances in lettering.BUT, since your COPY and is just that…. a tenth generation COPY, you have no proof dude. And like I stated before, the font resembles Adobe Caslon Bold. And that did not exist in 1960.

    Have a nice day.

    Don’t be a sore loser, “dude”.

  109. avatar
    Northland10 March 16, 2011 at 8:32 pm #

    Majority Will: Rather than quibble over typography, let’s see his receipt for a round trip plane ticket or the boarding pass, visa stamp in a passport or a Kenyan customs stamp with an entry and exit date.

    I find it interesting that requests for proof that he went to Kenya are answered with silence. The same silence happens when somebody mentions that those in the video are from the Caribbean and not Kenyan. Yet, when the Doc pens an article about the typography, i.e. the “artwork” of the document, suddenly Mr. Smith appears. He will defend the look of the document yet not defend against the questions on how he got it.

    Hmm…

  110. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 8:35 pm #

    Northland10:
    I ran back to the purported 1961 era Kenyan Birth Certificate posted by WND (not Obama’s).Sure enough, the Y does not hang under the T in Nationality or in the typewritten spot where it says Kenyan.I cannot attest to the actual validity of the Birth Certificate posted by WNDm but, as it was used to debunk the Bomford and the Smith BCs, to me, it gains a little credibility (I mean, really, they are debunking supposed evidence against Obama. It would seem odd that they would make a fake to debunk evidence that supports them).

    It truly is a weird world where I find WND helpful in debunking birthers.

    http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=106135

    Sorry, Sir. WND never had a ‘1961’ Kenyan birth certificate. What they displayed is what they call a “1961 era”. That’s a play on words. The IMAGE that they have is of a 1964, or post 1964, Republic of Kenya birth record document. Furthermore, it was issued by the GOVERNMENT, not a hospital.

    That being said, wnd’s IMAGE is no good for comparison of 1961 hospital birth certificate. Furthermore, their IMAGE is from a complete different entity, the Republic of Kenya (not the Kenya Protectorate).

    If you are so into WND you might want to check out the rest of their DEBUNKED claims. You know, that James Ang’awa never worked anywhere but Kenyatta Hospital in Nairobi, CPGH (the hospital itself) didn’t exist in 1961, “Coast Province” did not exist until 1964, James Ang’awa never worked on anything related to child birth, Mombasa was in Zanzibar and not the Protectorate of Kenya, etc.

    Those claims have all been roundly and categorically debunked. Think about that next time you site their work.

  111. avatar
    Reality Check March 16, 2011 at 8:40 pm #

    LS:

    Why did you cover the word “Kenya” on the inside of the front cover?

  112. avatar
    JoZeppy March 16, 2011 at 8:44 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Don’t be a sore loser, “dude”.

    How about some proof you were ever in Kenya?

    Or why Heltan Maganga’s signature appears on a document you claim you copied directly from the file?

    Or that no one has ever produced a similar looking Kenyan birth certificate

    Or why we should remotely trust a convicted forger, who tried to sell the document on ebay?

    Why quibble over fonts and kerning. There is no reason any serious person should give any consideration to your document.

  113. avatar
    Northland10 March 16, 2011 at 8:45 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: The IMAGE that they have is of a 1964, or post 1964, Republic of Kenya birth record document. Furthermore, it was issued by the GOVERNMENT, not a hospital.

    And my point was not the form itself but the typography. As you seem to agree the form is from around the 1960s and from the same general region in Africa, then, the typography on that form does show the use, granted, in a very limited way.

    And no, I am not found of citing WND. Part of my point above was the irony that I am actually citing them. I very rarely go near that digital rag and find there is rarely a lie they are not proud to reprint. This makes it all the more interesting they would not support the 2 “Kenyan BCs.”

  114. avatar
    Scientist March 16, 2011 at 8:47 pm #

    Lucas: i believe that Bribing a foreign official is a felony under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Are yob sure you want to stand by the story that you obtained your document by bribery?

  115. avatar
    JoZeppy March 16, 2011 at 8:48 pm #

    Northland10: I find it interesting that requests for proof that he went to Kenya are answered with silence. The same silence happens when somebody mentions that those in the video are from the Caribbean and not Kenyan. Yet, when the Doc pens an article about the typography, i.e. the “artwork” of the document, suddenly Mr. Smith appears. He will defend the look of the document yet not defend against the questions on how he got it. Hmm…

    Perhaps Mr. Smith takes pride in his work and accusations that he did a bad forgery is just too much for him to take?

  116. avatar
    US Citizen March 16, 2011 at 8:52 pm #

    Mary Adams: How can President Obama be the long-legged Mack daddy and be a DWARF?

    Hope and Change? ;-)

    Lucas’ 1st sentence said he’d never posted here before.
    That was proven a lie.

    Then he said he wouldn’t post again.
    Now that’s also a lie.

    So from his first statement to his last, all he’s done here is lie.

    Lucas, please tell us the circumstances under which you became convicted.
    Why are you not answering this very simple question?

    And why would ever pass up a chance to provide a scan of your passport stamps to Kenya?
    Wouldn’t that, if true, only help you be believed?
    I mean, you can travel all the way to Kenya, but can’t scan a tiny little book page?
    C’mon. You want to appear like you have all this ability to see even the smallest details and yet you’ve been asked for this little detail repeatedly and just can’t seem to do it.
    Why?

    Show us the passport!!
    What are you hiding??

    Oh and can you answer how it appears you’ve explained your Kenya visit both as being specifically for obtaining Obama’s supposed Kenya BC -AND- for other business and “just happened” to run into an official. Or was it a guard?
    Oh and what was the other business you were doing there?
    As a businessman, surely you’ve kept some receipts for your travel expenses.
    Can you you provide any scans or evidence for anything done in Africa?
    Anything???
    A boarding pass? Seating chart? An embossed towel, ashtray or bar of soap from a hotel?
    And no photos of you while in Africa? Not one?
    Are you actually saying you went all the way to Africa and didn’t bother taking a single photo while there?
    Didn’t it ever occur to you to do this to back up your claims?

    You’re saying on one hand that you’re some sort of investigative genius and on the other, a detail-overlooking buffoon.
    Which is it, Lucas?
    Smart enough to play around with Photoshop, but too dumb to figure out your own scanner?

    Why do you find it so difficult to show simple items that would help your own credibility??
    Would this be the same reason you first said you’d help Orly, but then ran away when it came time to be under oath?

  117. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 8:56 pm #

    Majority Will: Rather than quibble over typography, let’s see his receipt for a round trip plane ticket or the boarding pass, visa stamp in a passport or a Kenyan customs stamp with an entry and exit date.

    How long does it take to forge any of those things better than one of the obsessive, compulsive, pathological liar’s bad checks?

    And the incredibly desperate for money birther still hasn’t explained how a 6 foot 1 inch, 180 lb. dwarf is living in the White House.

    And how exactly did Heltan Maganga’s signature from 2009 get on a 48-year-old document that was obtained Ludlum style directly from the files and not through any official agency of the hospital?

    Serious enough? As serious as a kidney transplant?

    You mention something about a kidney. I sold my left kidney (not to the Wilson family) in the year 2006 for $200,000. And the story about the Wilson family and their son is just that, a story. The part that the Wilson left out is that Father Wilson promised me, our deal, $200,000 cash. When the surgery date approached in 2003 he told me that the ‘loan’ that he thought was in the works was not going to come through and that he couldn’t pay me. I then refused to give away my kidney. The Wilson’s contacted newspapers and the police. Several stories ran in the Cedar Rapids Gazette. And do you that those stories saved their son’s life (for a few years)? A woman from my hometown in Cedar Rapids Iowa was saddened by the story about fellow Iowan from Cedar Rapids (me, Lucas) attempting extort a poor family in need of a life saving kidney. This woman, Dianne something or other then gave the Wilson boy her kidney, for free, in the year 2004.

    Both the CR Police and the FBI and the USDOJ investigated the Wilson’ claim. They found the Wilson’s story to be full of holes and criminal charges were never brought against me (Lucas).

    Aside from federal laws, their is nothing morally wrong about selling a kidney. If I can sell my toilet or my dog or my kitchen sink I think I have the right to sell a piece of my body that belongs to me much more than my bathroom toilet does.

    Furthermore, I keep in touch with the person that I sold me kidney to in the year 2006. They are very happy. The family sends me cards on major holidays and phone calls sometimes. The person had been on the kidney waiting list for years and their health was dropping. I saved their life.

    And why shouldn’t I be paid for my kidney? Why not? The doctor is paid for the surgery, isnt he? The hospital staff that worked in the project all got paid for their time. (A lot of staff involved in a living donor transplant, took six months of work). And the recipient certainly has come out very much ahead with a life saving organ.

    So, I ask you, why should the donor not be financially rewarded? Do you know how much physical pain a donor endures after surgery? I wanted to die sometimes it hurt so bad. Donors miss a lot of work during pre-surgery and post-surgery. Last, and importantly, donors have given away a part of their body that will now make the rest of their organs work harder and possibly wear-out faster.

    I trust that I have explained everything in an effective manner.

    Lucas D. Smith

  118. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 8:57 pm #

    Northland10: I find it interesting that requests for proof that he went to Kenya are answered with silence.The same silence happens when somebody mentions that those in the video are from the Caribbean and not Kenyan. Yet, when the Doc pens an article about the typography, i.e. the “artwork” of the document, suddenly Mr. Smith appears.He will defend the look of the document yet not defend against the questions on how he got it.

    Hmm…

    We’re supposed to believe a felon with previous convictions for fraud and forgery, an identity thief caught writing bad checks, a birther who was so desperate for money he tried to sell his own kidney on the black market and pathetically tried to sell this ridiculous BC forgery for a million dollars on eBay. Someone who can’t offer one shred of credible evidence to dispute any of his many, many lies. Someone who has been razzed by even hardcore birthers who don’t and won’t believe a word of his increasingly sad and desperate drivel.

    Yeah right.

    Hey, birther “dude”. It must hurt a lot.

  119. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 8:59 pm #

    “Aside from federal laws . . .”

    Pesky laws. You try soaking and scrubbing and dang it, they’re still there.

  120. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 9:00 pm #

    Scientist:
    Lucas:i believe that Bribing a foreign official is a felony under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.Are yob sure you want to stand by the story that you obtained your document by bribery?

    You are correct. There are cases where US Citizens have paid bribes while abroad and then these US Citizens were charged by the USDOJ with federal crimes later down the road while in the USA.

  121. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 9:03 pm #

    Majority Will: We’re supposed to believe a felon with previous convictions for fraud and forgery, an identity thief caught writing bad checks, a birther who was so desperate for money he tried to sell his own kidney on the black market and pathetically tried to sell this ridiculous BC forgery for a million dollars on eBay. Someone who can’t offer one shred of credible evidence to dispute any of his many, many lies. Someone who has been razzed by even hardcore birthers who don’t and won’t believe a word of his increasingly sad and desperate drivel.

    Yeah right.

    Hey, birther “dude”. It must hurt a lot.

    Please keep to the facts. And fact is that I have NEVER stolen anyone’s identity nor have I ever been convicted of identity left.

    When I was a teenager I signed some bad checks. Nothing to do with identity left.

  122. avatar
    Mary Adams March 16, 2011 at 9:04 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: James Ang’awa never worked on anything related to child birth,

    Those claims have all been roundly and categorically debunked.

    O RLY?

    Making up ridiculous excuses for your errors is not “debunking”. None of the criticisms of your fake KBC have been debunked, but I’d really like to hear your fantasy of what an Infectious Disease expert was doing on a Maternity ward, especially delivering babies.

    Oh, and I’m still waiting for your explanation of how a dwarf turned into the long-legged Mack Daddy.

  123. avatar
    JoZeppy March 16, 2011 at 9:06 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: You are correct. There are cases where US Citizens have paid bribes while abroad and then these US Citizens were charged by the USDOJ with federal crimes later down the road while in the USA.

    Well, I suppose you have at least established that you have no problems with violating the law. Now if you could only provide any credible evidence as to you ever going to Kenya, or why we should believe a convicted forger who tried to sell the document on ebay (and the many other problems with your claims and story).

  124. avatar
    misha March 16, 2011 at 9:07 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I sold my left kidney (not to the Wilson family) in the year 2006 for $200,000.

    The going rate is $250K. Why so cheap?

    Lucas D. Smith: If I can sell my toilet or my dog or my kitchen sink I think I have the right to sell a piece of my body that belongs to me much more than my bathroom toilet does.

    A concern is a fear that vulnerable populations will be exploited (i.e., that the poor and others whose social circumstances give them few choices and little medical sophistication, will become “tissue factories” for the well-to-do). That’s why there’s a federal law.

  125. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 9:08 pm #

    Mary Adams: O RLY?

    Making up ridiculous excuses for your errors is not “debunking”. None of the criticisms of your fake KBC have been debunked, but I’d really like to hear your fantasy of what an Infectious Disease expert was doing on a Maternity ward, especially delivering babies.

    Oh, and I’m still waiting for your explanation of how a dwarf turned into the long-legged Mack Daddy.

    It’s clear that many of the posters on this forum do not research before they post.

    Doctor James Ang’awa wrote reports on pediatrics and obstetrics. One such article was Rupture of the Uterus in East Africa. There are other reports that I cant think of the exact titles off of the top of my head.

  126. avatar
    misha March 16, 2011 at 9:09 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: When I was a teenager I signed some bad checks.

    That’s a felony.

  127. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 9:09 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Being that Dr Conspiracy is now conducting this research project in at least a semi-objective fashion I hereby withdraw my earlier statement, specifically the segment which states that I am done posting on this blog. I love research projects.

    I’m glad you decided not to stay away.

    This whole blog started out of a research project, although it has since branched out into legal questions, news and commentary. On this site, everybody gets to have their say (except for a few abusive folks) and at least insofar as I am concerned, evidence wins out.

    One of the problems in discussing the CPGH Obama birth certificate (as you call it) is that we are talking about a document that purports to be 48 years old from a foreign country. None of us was in Kenya in 1961. There is always the temptation to fill in gaps in our knowledge with plausible (or not) suppositions.

    Those challenges do not make it impossible to come up with well-supported answers, just difficult. When I get all the information I can, I’ll publish my conclusions under my own name and stand by them. One question that may loom large in those conclusions is why a 2009 hospital administrator’s signature appears on a 1961 birth certificate and a parallel question is: why is there a seal on it?

  128. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 9:15 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Doctor James Ang’awa wrote reports on pediatrics and obstetrics. One such article was Rupture of the Uterus in East Africa. There are other reports that I cant think of the exact titles off of the top of my head.

    I did an article back in March 6, 2010, that included all I could find in Dr. Ang’awa (which included the obstetric article you mention). It appeared to me at the time that Dr. Ang’awa’s interests shifted from obstetrics to tuberculosis some time before 1959.

    Baby Obama delivered by neighbor?

  129. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 16, 2011 at 9:18 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Those claims have all been roundly and categorically debunked. Think about that next time you site their work.

    Mr. Smith,

    I find this comment deeply ironic, coming from you (and it’s cite, not site, by the way…). I’m glad you decided to continue participating in this discussion, but I would suggest that getting huffy is not going to be a particularly effective tactic for convincing people of the validity of your document… I think you misunderstand the assertion being made: It’s not being asserted that it was impossible to do such kerning in 1961 (and your book is convincing evidence that it was possible at the time), but rather that such kerning was unlikely to have been done for a routine government document. In order to cast serious doubt on this theory, you must show the use of such kerning in a similarly prosaic document. Conversely, for those trying to prove that the document could have been plausibly forged, it isn’t sufficient to show that the kerning could have been done by available methods – in order to be reasonable it needs to be something that could have been done carelessly (rather than intentionally) by a forger – something that automatically happens when using a modern version of a Caslon font, for instance. It isn’t reasonable to think that a forger would go out of their way to include evidence of forgery in their work… In any case, I think that you will find that the people here are willing to give any evidence you have a fair hearing, but I suspect that you wont like the consensus which emerges from ALL the evidence…

  130. avatar
    Mary Adams March 16, 2011 at 9:27 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: When I was a teenager I signed some bad checks. Nothing to do with identity left.

    Charge:
    715A.2 Description: DNU – FORGERY
    Offense Date: 01/28/1998 Arrest Date: Against

    DNU-GUILTY Adj.Date: 05/22/1998
    Adj.Judge:
    KOEHLER, THOMAS L

    There are other crimes as well.

    Oh, and I’m still waiting for your explanation of how a dwarf turned into the long-legged Mack Daddy.

  131. avatar
    Mary Adams March 16, 2011 at 9:32 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Doctor James Ang’awa wrote reports on pediatrics and obstetrics.

    In the early 1950’s.

    A large hospital would have OB/GYNs or at the least, Family Practice MDs.

    An infectious disease expert works in an office and is not wandering the halls of a maternity ward at 7:24pm.

    You are, simply, a LIAR.

  132. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 16, 2011 at 9:34 pm #

    Mr. Smith,

    While I would agree that there is nothing immoral or unethical about selling your kidney (buying it is another matter entirely…) ‘aside from federal laws’, as you put it, those federal laws exist to protect people (as Misha pointed out). I’m glad the sale of your kidney worked out to everyone’s satisfaction, but it certainly doesn’t make me think that those federal laws are a bad idea… (and that explains the events to my satisfaction, thank you).

  133. avatar
    Sean March 16, 2011 at 9:42 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: What are you talking about?Don’t try to wiggle out now like a small worm. The book cover is from 1966. And the book, ABOUT KENYA, was published first in 1964 in Great Britain

    Take a look at that book. What are we looking at? A piece of artwork, a design for the sleave of a book, not a government form. Big difference. No comparison. The letters on the book overlap. We aren’t talking about letters that overlap. We’re talking about letters that overreach beyond an imaginary vertical line that separates the letters. This simply isn’t done on a block of text in letterpress. It most times is done automatically on layout computer programs. The book I’m reading shows this feature in the text (not the damn cover!). let’s see it used in a 1961 book.

  134. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 9:53 pm #

    Slartibartfast: Mr. Smith,

    I find this comment deeply ironic, coming from you (and it’s cite, not site, by the way…).I’m glad you decided to continue participating in this discussion, but I would suggest that getting huffy is not going to be a particularly effective tactic for convincing people of the validity of your document…I think you misunderstand the assertion being made: It’s not being asserted that it was impossible to do such kerning in 1961 (and your book is convincing evidence that it was possible at the time), but rather that such kerning was unlikely to have been done for a routine government document.In order to cast serious doubt on this theory, you must show the use of such kerning in a similarly prosaic document.Conversely, for those trying to prove that the document could have been plausibly forged, it isn’t sufficient to show that the kerning could have been done by available methods – in order to be reasonable it needs to be something that could have been done carelessly (rather than intentionally) by a forger – something that automatically happens when using a modern version of a Caslon font, for instance.It isn’t reasonable to think that a forger would go out of their way to include evidence of forgery in their work…In any case, I think that you will find that the people here are willing to give any evidence you have a fair hearing, but I suspect that you wont like the consensus which emerges from ALL the evidence…

    You are correct, I should not get ‘huffy’ and yes I should have spelled ‘site’ as ‘cite’. Sometimes I get in a hurry when I write and I am known for writing sentences and paragraphs with all sorts of typos and even words that don’t exist in any language.

    I pride myself on being an objective and thinker and a conscientious minded person.

    I must inform you that you are very much incorrect when you state that “I think you misunderstand the assertion being made: It’s not being asserted that it was impossible to do such kerning in 1961″

    On contrary, that is EXACTLY what was being asserted by the person(s) that sent the email to Dr. Conspiracy. Please note that in my first few replies posts in the article I tried very much to explain my point, about Offset Lithography and kerning, in a respectful and also very educative manner and also in a very effective manner.

    Just about everyone on this blog, including the creators of the disgraceful email, told me that it was impossible what I was saying and that I hadn’t really explained anything.

    Fact: It wasn’t until I displayed a color PDF image of the book cover, and the page with the publishing year info, that people on this blog, including people or persons that created the email, started admitting that it was indeed able to be created in the manner (or in other manners) that I suggested. The people or persons that sent the email to Dr Conspiracy were very deceptive in their email and also and they didn’t admit that what I was saying was possible until I uploaded tangible evidence…then they changed their tune.

    I enjoy research very much and I don’t understand why people need to resort to trickery to debunk a birth certificate that they claim is such an overt forgery.

    Getting to you other remark now about other kenya protectorate government documents. The 1961 CPGH Obama birth certificate is a HOSPITAL and I wouldn’t put it in the category of a normal government document. I am always working on research and I have much that I haven’t publicly disclosed.

    I’ve had that book (the one in the color PDF) for about a month now. I was looking for names of colonial government officials that are not found online anywhere. Lots of people have the strange idea that everything can be found online. That’s just not true.

    I like talking with objective thinkers.

  135. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 9:56 pm #

    Sean: Take a look at that book. What are we looking at? A piece of artwork, a design for the sleave of a book, not a government form. Big difference. No comparison. The letters on the book overlap. We aren’t talking about letters that overlap. We’re talking about letters that overreach beyond an imaginary vertical line that separates the letters. This simply isn’t done on a block of text in letterpress. It most times is done automatically on layout computer programs. The book I’m reading shows this feature in the text (not the damn cover!). let’s see it used in a 1961 book.

    Don’t get so mad just because you lost the debate. Your were very deceptive. It wasn’t until I uploaded the color PDF that you changed your tune about what is possible and what is not possible.

    I have no respect for you.

  136. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 9:56 pm #

    Slartibartfast:
    Mr. Smith,

    While I would agree that there is nothing immoral or unethical about selling your kidney (buying it is another matter entirely…) aside from federal laws’, as you put it, those federal laws exist to protect people (as Misha pointed out).I’m glad the sale of your kidney worked out to everyone’s satisfaction, but it certainly doesn’t make me think that those federal laws are a bad idea…(and that explains the events to my satisfaction, thank you).

    Thank you.

  137. avatar
    G March 16, 2011 at 9:57 pm #

    Slartibartfast: Mr. Smith,While I would agree that there is nothing immoral or unethical about selling your kidney (buying it is another matter entirely…) aside from federal laws’, as you put it, those federal laws exist to protect people (as Misha pointed out). I’m glad the sale of your kidney worked out to everyone’s satisfaction, but it certainly doesn’t make me think that those federal laws are a bad idea… (and that explains the events to my satisfaction, thank you).

    Ditto for me on that matter.

  138. avatar
    misha March 16, 2011 at 9:58 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I have no respect for you.

    I would like to return the compliment.

  139. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 16, 2011 at 10:01 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I’m glad you decided not to stay away.

    This whole blog started out of a research project, although it has since branched out into legal questions, news and commentary. On this site, everybody gets to have their say (except for a few abusive folks) and at least insofar as I am concerned, evidence wins out.

    One of the problems in discussing the CPGH Obama birth certificate (as you call it) is that we are talking about a document that purports to be 48 years old from a foreign country. None of us was in Kenya in 1961. There is always the temptation to fill in gaps in our knowledge with plausible (or not) suppositions.

    Those challenges do not make it impossible to come up with well-supported answers, just difficult. When I get all the information I can, I’ll publish my conclusions under my own name and stand by them. One question that may loom large in those conclusions iswhy a 2009 hospital administrator’s signature appears on a 1961 birth certificate and a parallel question is: why is there a seal on it?

    I like good research project and objective debate. That makes for a great blog. I will continue posting when times permits.

    Best regards.

  140. avatar
    Mary Adams March 16, 2011 at 10:01 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Don’t get so mad…

    Back again! And yet you STILL can’t explain how a dwarf turned into the long-legged Mack Daddy.

  141. avatar
    Mary Adams March 16, 2011 at 10:05 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Doc C wrote: “why a 2009 hospital administrator’s signature appears on a 1961 birth certificate and a parallel question is: why is there a seal on it?”

    I like good research project and objective debate. That makes for a great blog. I will continue posting when times permits.

    Best regards.

    You like a “good research project” but provide no answer.

    You are a forger and a liar.

  142. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 10:07 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: You are correct.There are cases where US Citizens have paid bribes while abroad and then these US Citizens were charged by the USDOJ with federal crimes later down the road while in the USA.

    I looked at the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, and while I am not a lawyer, it would appear that the bribery of a soldier as described in the Smith affidavit is not a violation of the Act since Mr. Smith was not acting on behalf of a security-issuing entity. Someone more qualified feel free to step in.

  143. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 16, 2011 at 10:10 pm #

    Mr. Smith,

    Amend my comment to refer to what sort of evidence I believe would (and would not) be convincing on either side – I didn’t mean to imply that I was speaking for anyone else. That being said, I believe that Doc, in writing his promised article, will take a similar (if more nuanced) view of whatever evidence that turns up. I agree that your book establishes the possibility of such kerning being used on government (or hospital) documents, but you need to show it being used in some similar type of document (which the title page of a book is not) to establish the probability of kerning being used in such a document (similar kerning in the text of a book would also support you, though not quite as strongly as boilerplate on a contemporary form would…).

  144. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 10:14 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Sorry, Sir. WND never had a ’1961′ Kenyan birth certificate. What they displayed is what they call a “1961 era”. That’s a play on words. The IMAGE that they have is of a 1964, or post 1964, Republic of Kenya birth record document. Furthermore, it was issued by the GOVERNMENT, not a hospital.

    I wrote the following back in September of 2009 on this point:

    The first question to ask is “what are we looking at”? There are two kinds of birth certificates: hospital-issued souvenirs (without legal significance) and government-issued certified copies (with legal standing). The document we’re discussing here seems to be a cross between the two. On the one hand it purports to be issued by the hospital, signed by a hospital-titled person, and lacks legal attributes such as the parent’s signature and adds a baby footprint. On the other hand it purports to be a legal document, having a certificate number, a seal, and to have been “issued” this year, attributes of a “certified copy.” But a certified copy of a souvenir makes no sense, and the document presented seems neither fish nor fowl.

  145. avatar
    Sef March 16, 2011 at 10:18 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: the document presented seems neither fish nor fowl.

    Carrot?

  146. avatar
    Black Lion March 16, 2011 at 10:47 pm #

    Lucas Smith is funny. He expects us to believe that he flew all the way to Kenya, bribed a soldier to get access to the files that contain the BC, locates the BC which is supposed to be over 40 years old but signed by the current hospital administrator. That stretches the limits of reality. Lucas, if you wish for anyone to believe you how about proving that you actually went to Kenya. Why? Because you expect us to believe that the government of Kenya would protect the BC by assigning a soldier to guard it when they could have easily destroyed it. Again that makes no sense. You have a document that cannot be authenticated as per the Federal Rules of Evidence, cannot even prove that you ever visited Kenya, and the wrong person signed the document and misspelled their name. And you expect anyone with a modicum of intelligence to believe anything you say? And you wonder why every Congressman filed your “report” in their circular filing cabinet under their desks….Lucas, you tell a wonderful work of fiction…

  147. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 16, 2011 at 11:05 pm #

    Mary Adams: A weight of 7lbs 1 oz and a length of 18 inches = DWARFISM.

    I can’t comment on that, but it is certainly extremely unusual, specifically the 98.6 percentile.

    http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/

  148. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 16, 2011 at 11:06 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith

    I have no respect for you.

    Says the convicted forger who won’t tell us what kind of press he used to make the certificate

  149. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 16, 2011 at 11:16 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The first question to ask is “what are we looking at”? There are two kinds of birth certificates: hospital-issued souvenirs (without legal significance) and government-issued certified copies (with legal standing). The document we’re discussing here seems to be a cross between the two. On the one hand it purports to be issued by the hospital, signed by a hospital-titled person, and lacks legal attributes such as the parent’s signature and adds a baby footprint. On the other hand it purports to be a legal document, having a certificate number, a seal, and to have been “issued” this year, attributes of a “certified copy.” But a certified copy of a souvenir makes no sense, and the document presented seems neither fish nor fowl.

    Which shows it’s a forgery. This whole certificate sounds like the exact description the average birther makes of a birth certificate without them having looked at what a real certified certificate looks like.

  150. avatar
    Keith March 16, 2011 at 11:32 pm #

    Majority Will: You’ll find that in many places in Africa there is no standard spelling for names, especially when Swahili word and names are spelled out with the Indo-European alphabet.

    Quite possibly true and understandable.

    But wouldn’t an individual, especially a highly educated Doctor and administrator, have a standard way of spelling his own name?

    OK, my sister went through a phase of spelling her name Alyce instead of Alice. But she was 14 years old at the time and having a bit of romantic rebellion and she got over it.

    Do you think a hospital administrator would really not have decided how to spell his name by the time he got through med school?

  151. avatar
    Keith March 16, 2011 at 11:37 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The President of Kenya who is Obama’s cousin (not really) ordered the hospital records sealed (not really), and placed a military guard at the hospital to make sure no one got into the file cabinet where Obama’s certificate rests (not really). Smith claimed to have bribed the guard to look the other way while he copied the 1961 document.

    So let me get this straight: they don’t have shredders, fire, bank vaults, or locks in Kenya.

    Just want to make sure everyone is on the same page.

  152. avatar
    gorefan March 16, 2011 at 11:38 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I’ve had that book (the one in the color PDF) for about a month now. I was looking for names of colonial government officials that are not found online anywhere.

    That’s very interesting, that is exactly a kind of information a professional forger would need to produce an authentic looking 50 year old document.

    Does this mean we’ll be seeing new 1961 Kenyan Government documents soon?

  153. avatar
    Majority Will March 16, 2011 at 11:48 pm #

    Keith: Quite possibly true and understandable.

    But wouldn’t an individual, especially a highly educated Doctor and administrator, have a standard way of spelling his own name?

    OK, my sister went through a phase of spelling her name Alyce instead of Alice. But she was 14 years old at the time and having a bit of romantic rebellion and she got over it.

    Do you think a hospital administrator would really not have decided how to spell his name by the time he got through med school?

    I would think the Doctor (or any Doctor) would be required to have a standard spelling of his name to keep records consistent and for legal reasons. And I think his own LinkedIn profile would show how he spells his own name.

    But the rest of the world? Language to language is unpredictable. Spell Chanukah in any language other than Hebrew.
    And ask the media to pick a standard spelling for Ghadafy, Khadaffi, Qadaffi . . .

    However, that’s not the point and I think it was a deliberate goalpost move by the birther designed to distract. The point is specifically related to only how Dr. Heltan Maganga spells his name and that is officially recognized as being spelled that way and nothing else.

  154. avatar
    misha March 16, 2011 at 11:53 pm #

    Majority Will: Spell Chanukah in any language other than Hebrew.

    OK, “Kurt Vonnegut.”

  155. avatar
    dunstvangeet March 16, 2011 at 11:59 pm #

    Lucas Smith…

    You still haven’t answered the questions that I have asked you.

    Jim Bryne of the Post and Email emailed Heltan Maganga with the following 3 questions:

    1. Were you the Chief Administrator (or acting Chief Administrator) of CPGH on Feb. 19th 2009?

    2. Do the stamp and signature that appear in the attached document appear to be your stamp and signature?

    3. Is the attached CPGH birth certificate representative of what a birth certificate issued by CPGH in 1961 would look like?

    He answered in the following manner:

    The answer to all your questions is a resounding NO.

    Now, please tell me. Why is Heltan Maganga not backing you up on your story? Why is he claiming that he was not Chief Administrator? Why is he claiming that it’s not his signature on the certificate, and why is he claiming that it’s not even representative of birth certificates that were issued by CPGH?

    Why are you avoiding these questions?

  156. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 17, 2011 at 12:00 am #

    Keith: So let me get this straight: they don’t have shredders, fire, bank vaults, or locks in Kenya.

    Just want to make sure everyone is on the same page.

    For some reason I’m sensing a soviet russia joke in here somewhere

  157. avatar
    misha March 17, 2011 at 12:06 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): For some reason I’m sensing a soviet russia joke in here somewhere

    (told in Cold War Russia)

    I walked into a hotel lobby. I had reservations, but I stayed there anyway. [bada-bing]

    Thank you. I’ll be here all week.

  158. avatar
    Keith March 17, 2011 at 12:07 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: Mary Adams: O RLY?

    Oh, and I’m still waiting for your explanation of how a dwarf turned into the long-legged Mack Daddy.

    It’s clear that many of the posters on this forum do not research before they post.

    Doctor James Ang’awa wrote reports on pediatrics and obstetrics. One such article was Rupture of the Uterus in East Africa. There are other reports that I cant think of the exact titles off of the top of my head.

    That is at least the second time you have quoted this question and answered something else.

    Why won’t you answer it?

  159. avatar
    misha March 17, 2011 at 12:09 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): For some reason I’m sensing a soviet russia joke in here somewhere

    In Russia, ground breaks you!

  160. avatar
    misha March 17, 2011 at 12:12 am #

    Keith: Why won’t you answer it?

    Take a guess.

  161. avatar
    Keith March 17, 2011 at 12:24 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Keith: So let me get this straight: they don’t have shredders, fire, bank vaults, or locks in Kenya.

    Just want to make sure everyone is on the same page.

    For some reason I’m sensing a soviet russia joke in here somewhere

    Not from me, but I await yours.

    I just can’t figure out why ‘they’ thought they could permanently make a document disappear by putting it in an unlocked cabinet with a guard posted at the door.

    Couldn’t they just shred and/or burn it? Why not put it in the President’s private vault for insurance? I’m sure the Republic of Kenya could do with some influence over the world’s only remaining superpower. Why not at least lock the cabinet for crying out loud?

    This isn’t rocket science, folks.

  162. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 17, 2011 at 12:29 am #

    For the record, when I traveled to Kenya in 2009 I never had any idea about Barack Obama being born in Kenya nor him possibly being ineligible for Office of President because of his father, B.O. Senior.

    If you read my original declaration (which Orly drafted while I was abroad) you’ll see that it says “I traveled to Kenya and Mombasa in particular with the intent to obtain the original birth certificate…”

    That is the reason that I traveled to MOMBASA. You have to read carefully and in ‘Orly speak’. I traveled to Kenya (originally to Nairobi) for other reasons which were wholly unrelated. Orly was insistent on using the wording of, “I traveled to Kenya and Mombasa in particular with the intent to obtain the original birth certificate…”.

    I can see how people might interpret the statement as meaning that I traveled to BOTH Kenya and Mombasa with the same intent. For whatever reason, that was wording that Orly was adamant about using (same with other segments of the declaration too).

    Moving on: I paid a total of 3 different bribes to get my hands on the birth certificate. Two bribes went two different members of the Kenya military/national police. First bribe ($200) was paid some amount of time before I went to go inside the hospital and another (2nd for $500) was while I was inside the hospital. The final or ultimate bribe (3rd for $5000) that I paid was to a member of the administrative staff at the CPGH (hospital). This took place within minutes of a bribe ($500) being paid a military officer inside of the hospital.

    I set the 3rd bribe ($5000) down in front of a female member of the admin staff and told her that if she could bring me a certified copy of President Barack Obama’s ORIGINAL BIRTH RECORD, if a such a record existed, within XXXXXX amount of time, that the money was her’s too keep. The military officer was in the room and he nodded to her when she immediately looked over at him after I offered her the deal.

    She returned within the allotted time with the present day certified copy of the 1961 CPGH birth record for Barack Hussein Obama, II.

    The story is a long and detailed one. My original declaration is brief and was drafted by Orly. I made some minor changes to declaration but Orly still managed to file it wrong in that she mixed up the revised pages with the original pages when she filed it with the Courts (which she claims was by accident). If you look at the official docketed declaration you’ll see that wording at the end of page 1 and the beginning of page 2 does not jive.

    In any event, though brief and including strange language (‘Orly speak’) of Orly Taitz, the declaration is factually accurate.

    The above synopsis has always been my account, it has never wavered. I told the story in front of a group of plaintiffs with Orly when I arrived in California in 2009.

    I hope and trust that all of the above helps answers some questions posed by members of this blog.

    Buena noche.

  163. avatar
    Sef March 17, 2011 at 12:40 am #

    Keith: I just can’t figure out why they’ thought they could permanently make a document disappear by putting it in an unlocked cabinet with a guard posted at the door.

    With a sign saying, “Beware of the leopard”

  164. avatar
    Sef March 17, 2011 at 12:44 am #

    Lucas D. Smith:
    For the record, when I traveled to Kenya in 2009 I never had any idea about Barack Obama being born in Kenya nor him possibly being ineligible for Office of President because of his father, B.O. Senior.

    If you read my original declaration (which Orly drafted while I was abroad) you’ll see that it says “I traveled to Kenya and Mombasa in particular with the intent to obtain the original birth certificate…”

    That is the reason that I traveled to MOMBASA.You have to read carefully and in Orly speak’.I traveled to Kenya (originally to Nairobi) for other reasons which were wholly unrelated. Orly was insistent on using the wording of, “I traveled to Kenya and Mombasa in particular with the intent to obtain the original birth certificate…”.

    I can see how people might interpret the statement as meaning that I traveled to BOTH Kenya and Mombasa with the same intent.For whatever reason, that was wording that Orly was adamant about using (same with other segments of the declaration too).

    Moving on:I paid a total of 3 different bribes to get my hands on the birth certificate.Two bribes went two different members of the Kenya military/national police.First bribe ($200) was paid some amount of time before I went to go inside the hospital and another (2nd for $500) was while I was inside the hospital. The final or ultimate bribe (3rd for $5000) that I paid was to a member of the administrative staff at the CPGH (hospital).This took place within minutes of a bribe ($500) being paid a military officer inside of the hospital.

    I set the 3rd bribe ($5000) down in front of a female member of the admin staff and told her that if she could bring me a certified copy of President Barack Obama’s ORIGINAL BIRTH RECORD, if a such a record existed, within XXXXXX amount of time, that the money was her’s too keep. The military officer was in the room and he nodded to her when she immediately looked over at him after I offered her the deal.

    She returned within the allotted time with the present day certified copy of the 1961 CPGH birth record for Barack Hussein Obama, II.

    The story is a long and detailed one. My original declaration is brief and was drafted by Orly.I made some minor changes to declaration but Orly still managed to file it wrong in that she mixed up the revised pages with the original pages when she filed it with the Courts (which she claims was by accident).If you look at the official docketed declaration you’ll see that wording at the end of page 1 and the beginning of page 2 does not jive.

    In any event, though brief and including strange language (Orly speak’) of Orly Taitz, the declaration is factually accurate.

    The above synopsis has always been my account, it has never wavered.I told the story in front of a group of plaintiffs with Orly when I arrived in California in 2009.

    I hope and trust that all of the above helps answers some questions posed by members of this blog.

    Buena noche.

    Are you sure that you weren’t in Nigeria instead of Kenya?

  165. avatar
    Sef March 17, 2011 at 12:46 am #

    Sef: Are you sure that you weren’t in Nigeria instead of Kenya?

    IOW, youse been taken, boy.

  166. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 17, 2011 at 12:51 am #

    dunstvangeet:
    Lucas Smith…

    You still haven’t answered the questions that I have asked you.

    Jim Bryne of the Post and Email emailed Heltan Maganga with the following 3 questions:

    He answered in the following manner:

    Now, please tell me.Why is Heltan Maganga not backing you up on your story?Why is he claiming that he was not Chief Administrator?Why is he claiming that it’s not his signature on the certificate, and why is he claiming that it’s not even representative of birth certificates that were issued by CPGH?

    Why are you avoiding these questions?

    You are quoting the story an crazy man name Jim Bryne that I worked with in 2009 and 2010. Why do you NOT also mention that this story was pulled by the website that published it after they couldn’t confirm that it was a true email? Why can’t most skeptics (e.g., You) debate in an object and fair manner?

    I used to work with Jim Bryne until he became obsessed and wrote to me at all hours of the day and and often tried to start a ‘mutiny’, if you will, on my youtube forum when I wouldnt give him every single detail of every single event that took place in Africa.

    Bryne has no family, no kids and leads a lonely life and, from the wild stories that he has told me, I believe that some of them are very tall tales.

    In any event, after a very public parting of ways on my youtube forum, he went silent for a month or so. Then, just as soon as publish a story about sending the birth certificate and a lengthy notarized letter to each member of US Congress (via Certified Mail) he (Bryne) immediately submits for publication a story about a month old email that Dr Maganga allegedly sent to him.

    After many complaints at The Post & Email the website tried to confirm the email. There was no response from Dr Maganga and Bryne’s email came up as very fishy when it’s full header was looked through.

    Dr. Maganga (no matter how is names is spelled), HAS NEVER WEIGHED IN.

    I would very much like to hear what he has to say. Not that I expect him to help us.

    PS. I’ve found his name spelled many ways, even on medical-related publications. Same goes for administrator Othigo who’s name(s) have been spelled in even more different ways, and sometimes within same medical report.

    I’ve seen it as Merry, Mary, Janet, Janice, Jennifer, Jeniffer, Jenipher an so on. I’ve also seen Othiga rather than Othigo. And sometimes a 3rd name of Otieno (or something like that).

    If anyone is up to the challenge please find the CORRECT names and CORRECT spellings of those names for the administrator known as Othigo.

  167. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 17, 2011 at 12:58 am #

    gorefan: That’s very interesting, that is exactly a kind of information a professional forger would need to produce an authentic looking 50 year old document.

    Does this mean we’ll be seeing new 1961 Kenyan Government documents soon?

    You are incorrect, Sir or Madam,

    I got the book last month to see if I could find Kenyan colonial officials that aren’t found anywhere online because many skeptics claim that because they can’t find an online record of JOHN KWAME ODONGO that he must never have existed.

    I’m looking for other examples of the same thing within the book, i.e., names I find in the book yet I can’t find anywhere online.

  168. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 12:59 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): For some reason I’m sensing a soviet russia joke in here somewhere

    Does anyone else have a problem seeing new posts on this thread? The post I quoted is the latest post that I can see.

  169. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 1:00 am #

    Oh, there they are… sorry.

  170. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 1:04 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: You are incorrect, Sir or Madam,

    I got the book last month to see if I could find Kenyan colonial officials that aren’t found anywhere online because many skeptics claim that because they can’t find an online record of JOHN KWAME ODONGO that he must never have existed.

    I’m looking for other examples of the same thing within the book, i.e., names I find in the book yet I can’t find anywhere online.

    That doesn’t change the validity of gorefan’s assertion that such a text would be valuable to a forger…

  171. avatar
    Sean March 17, 2011 at 1:07 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: Don’t get so mad just because you lost the debate.Your were very deceptive. It wasn’t until I uploaded the color PDF that you changed your tune about what is possible and what is not possible.

    I have no respect for you.

    Mad? are you crazy? I love this! We started with a little disagreement on YouTube, you challenged me to do my own research and this is the result. A fresh new look at the Smith document. Now your world is collapsing all around you. People are calling you on your lies and deception. I wouldn’t expect you to have respect for me, nor do I want it.

  172. avatar
    obsolete March 17, 2011 at 1:09 am #

    I find it hilarious that the birthers had the great fortune of finding Obama’s genuine Kenyan birth certificate, but had the great misfortune of it coming through the hands of a convicted forger, thereby ruining any chance of it being taken seriously.

    What are the chances?

  173. avatar
    Sean March 17, 2011 at 1:21 am #

    Keith: So let me get this straight: they don’t have shredders, fire, bank vaults, or locks in Kenya.

    Just want to make sure everyone is on the same page.

    They don’t have doors either.

  174. avatar
    gorefan March 17, 2011 at 1:29 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: I’m looking for other examples of the same thing within the book, i.e., names I find in the book yet I can’t find anywhere online.

    That strikes me as a rather meaningless exercise, but good luck in your errand.

    But I have questions, in your interview with the post and mail, you detail the lengths you went to ensure that no one would have the time to produce a fake Kenyan BC (the whole looking for a sick sister, and the time allotment deal). But in your sworen affidavid, you said that,

    “6. I traveled to Kenya and Mombasa in particular with the intent to obtain the original birth certificate of Barack Hussein Obama, as I was told previously that it was on file in the hospital and under seal…”

    Who told you?
    Under what circumstances did they tell you? Did you seek them out or vice versa?
    When did they tell you?
    And how long after they told you did you leave for Kenya?
    And how do you know that a fake BC had not already been produced and was waiting for you or some one like you to show up?

  175. avatar
    Sean March 17, 2011 at 1:40 am #

    Lucas Smith:

    “Why can’t most skeptics (e.g., You) debate in an object and fair manner?”

    Like calling them names?

  176. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 17, 2011 at 1:46 am #

    Sean: Mad? are you crazy? I love this! We started with a little disagreement on YouTube, you challenged me to do my own research and this is the result. A fresh new look at the Smith document. Now your world is collapsing all around you. People are calling you on your lies and deception. I wouldn’t expect you to have respect for me, nor do I want it.

    Sir, everything that people here on this blog are accusing me of is the same thing that I have been accused of going on two years now. It seems that you are the only one that is unaware if this fact.

    I am answering questions here on this blog today (and tonight) because the owner of the blog and also some of the other posters here today (and tonight) are conducting themselves in somewhat of an objective manner.

    I like doing research and I like university style debate.

    About the only thing new (that hasn’t happened elsewhere online over 21 months or so) is that YOU in particular have been exposed as being deceptive in your disgraceful email to Dr Conspiracy and for deliberately withholding disclose of true printing methods until I provided tangible evidence from the 1964 book about Kenya written by a man that was in Kenya for at least ten years and published in Great Britain in 1964. After that you changed your tune saying basically that is was only impossible on a press that couldn’t create it (yet possible on press of the time that could create it).

    What sort of logic is that? You’ve been exposed and you’ve lost the debate.

    Keep your chin up and try not to loose any sleep tonight. And if you have a wife, PLEASE do NOT take out your anger and frustrations by beating her. I don’t condone wife beating. Do some push ups or chin ups if this is really getting to you. Drink lots of water but don’t pee the bed.

  177. avatar
    misha March 17, 2011 at 1:48 am #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): For some reason I’m sensing a soviet russia joke in here somewhere

    Sean: They don’t have doors either.

    In Russia, door opens you!

  178. avatar
    Sean March 17, 2011 at 2:14 am #

    Lucas D. Smith:

    I like doing research and I like university style debate.

    About the only thing new (that hasn’t happened elsewhere online over 21 months or so) is that YOU in particular have been exposed as being deceptive in your disgraceful email to Dr Conspiracy and for deliberately withholding disclose of true printing methods until I provided tangible evidence from the 1964 book about Kenya written by a man that was in Kenya for at least ten years and published in Great Britain in 1964.After that you changed your tune saying basically that is was only impossible on a press that couldn’t create it (yet possible on press of the time that could create it).

    What sort of logic is that? You’ve been exposed and you’ve lost the debate.

    Keep your chin up and try not to loose any sleep tonight.And if you have a wife, PLEASE do NOT take out your anger and frustrations by beating her.I don’t condone wife beating.Do some push ups or chin ups if this is really getting to you.Drink lots of water but don’t pee the bed.

    You seem to cotradict yourself in this post. You claim you like university style debate, yet you accuse me of domestic violence toward the end. That means YOU lost the debate.

    Obviously you lost sleep last night because an experienced person found another problem with your forgery and you had to do damage control.

    You take the discussion of document creation into a different ball game all together: color book cover artwork. Not the same thing In order to do a lithograph you have to have an original to work with. You’re implying that this document was etched. Why spend the time and money to etch something as plain as that document?

    You got caught. If you forged this document yourself, learn from your mistakes. If you paid someone to do it for you, demand your money back. If they don’t refund your money, you tell them to see me.

  179. avatar
    Expelliarmus March 17, 2011 at 4:00 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: Dr. Maganga (no matter how is names is spelled), HAS NEVER WEIGHED IN.

    He also wasn’t the chief administrator of the Coast Province Hospital in February 2009. So you are correct — he has ‘never’ weighed in — because he did not sign any hospital certificate no matter how his name could be spelled.

    Any idiot knows that hospitals don’t issue certified birth certificates in Kenya anyway. Birth certificate are public records that are issued via District Offices for Civil Registration – see http://www.births.go.ke/birth_cert.htm

    Here’s what i want to see, Mr. Smith — I would like to see a cop of the visa that was issued to you to enter Kenya, and the page of your passport stamped with the entrance/exit information from Kenya. Why have you not ever produced a copy of that document? We all know your full name and date of birth,, and we know what you look like — so there’s no particular privacy concern that should prevent you from posting a photocopy of a now-expired visa.

  180. avatar
    Lupin March 17, 2011 at 4:16 am #

    @ Lucas D Smith

    FYI Kenyan Barrister Owata Dikedjua has openly called you a fraudster and a liar in a correspondence with an inquiring party (name redacted). I’m reproducing his email below, including the caps and the odd spelling:

    DEAR [NAME REDACTED]

    COMPLIMENTS OF THE DAY AND HOW ARE YOU AND YOUR LOVERLY FAMILY? HOPE FINE.

    THIS LUCAS SMITH GUY IS A JOKER OK HE DONT KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT BEING A MAN OF INTERGRITY HE WOULDNT KNOW INTERGRITY IF IT APPROACHED HIM IN THE STREET AND MARRIED HIS GOAT OF A MOTHER I PROMISE YOU THAT AND IF U THINK HES NOT TRYING TO HERASS YOU INTO GIVING HIM YOUR HARDEARNED MONEY FOR LORD KNOWS WHAT THEN YOU REALLY MUST BE KIDDING YOURSELF OK HE DOESNT KNOW EVEN WHAT HE IS TARKING ABOUT. I AM A BARRISTER OK AND I KNOW THESE THINGS.

    YOURS TRULY,
    BARRISTER O. DIKEDJUA

  181. avatar
    Expelliarmus March 17, 2011 at 4:48 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: I’ve uploaded, to my Patriot1980 scribd account, a color PDF of the book cover and the publishing information listed inside of the book:

    I’d just point out that Mr. Smith’s uploaded book cover does not appear to be a first edition. here’s what the first edition cover looks like:
    http://www.biblio.com/books/389041478.html

    Smith obviously has the US edition, first published in 1966, rather than the 1964 UK edition. But that does not mean that the dust jacket in the photo comes from 1966. There is no telling what how many editions or print runs there may have been subsequent to first publication.

  182. avatar
    Scientist March 17, 2011 at 5:01 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I looked at the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, and while I am not a lawyer, it would appear that the bribery of a soldier as described in the Smith affidavit is not a violation of the Act since Mr. Smith was not acting on behalf of a security-issuing entity. Someone more qualified feel free to step in.

    Doc: I’m not a lawyer either, but I believe you are incorrect. The section you cite is a 1998 expansion of the law to include foreign firms listed on US securities exchanges. The act itself applies to “any citizen, national or resident of the United States”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act

  183. avatar
    misha March 17, 2011 at 5:13 am #

    Expelliarmus: Here’s what i want to see, Mr. Smith — I would like to see a cop of the visa that was issued to you to enter Kenya, and the page of your passport stamped with the entrance/exit information from Kenya.

    I would like to know how Smith traveled from Nairobi to Mombasa, and back. Also, how many hours each way.

  184. avatar
    The Magic M March 17, 2011 at 5:38 am #

    > because many skeptics claim that because they can’t find an online record of JOHN KWAME ODONGO that he must never have existed

    No, that is only a birther’s way of reasoning – you know, the whole “absence of evidence is evidence of absence” fallacy.

  185. avatar
    The Magic M March 17, 2011 at 5:47 am #

    > If anyone is up to the challenge please find the CORRECT names and CORRECT spellings of those names for the administrator known as Othigo.

    What relevance does this have? None. (And you purport to be a scientist?)

    The only relevance here that will, possibly, finally expose the BC as forgery is the correct spelling of Heltan Maganga. So, Lucas, why don’t you contact him and let him tell you how his name is spelled? One of us could do the same (of course you might always claim that we’re not reporting his answer truthfully).
    If it’s spelled differently than on the Kenyan BC, it’s 100% proof of fake since he wouldn’t misspell his own name when signing.

  186. avatar
    Judge Mental March 17, 2011 at 7:26 am #

    Like most dyed in the wool liars Mr Smith appears to have told the lie about the circumstances of visiting Mombasa so often that he may have actually convinced himself that it all happened.

    I first visited Mombasa in 1975 and have visited there 6 times since, the last time being in 2008. I have no doubt I will go there again in the future, but as in previous trips my very short time there will consist of travelling to the port area, doing the work I am there to do and leaving as soon as I am finished as Mombasa is not a very pleasant place to be (for me anyway).

    It would certainly not surprise me that assorted officials in all kinds of Govt organisations in Mombasa could be bribed in much the same way that I have personally seen, close up and personal, the bribing of officials in Port Harcourt, Alexandria, Capetown, Aden, Hodeidah, Mogadishu, Aleppo, Karachi and Chittagong to name but nine of many more places in which I have experienced it, usually in shipping related environments but sometimes in security access to restricted areas and even occasionally in acquisition of copies of restricted documents.

    However there is a style and thrust about Mr Smith’s descriptions of his alleged bribery operations in Mombasa which to me is indicative of how someone who has learned about bribery in foreign lands via fiction books or bad movies as opposed to via through first hand personal experience of it in real life might describe it if asked to have a stab at writing a script.

    I of course appreciate that this angle of comment is merely a generalised personal view and should take a back seat to the rather more obvious specific deficiencies of his allegations, not least of which is the unwillingness to substantiate that he’s ever been anywhere near Mombasa in his life and the various unresolved inconsistencies of the bc’s format and content.

  187. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 7:39 am #

    Expelliarmus: Here’s what i want to see, Mr. Smith — I would like to see a cop of the visa that was issued to you to enter Kenya, and the page of your passport stamped with the entrance/exit information from Kenya. Why have you not ever produced a copy of that document? We all know your full name and date of birth,, and we know what you look like — so there’s no particular privacy concern that should prevent you from posting a photocopy of a now-expired visa.

    Maybe the con artist can doctor a ticket to Kansas into Kenya with even more lies to cover more lies to cover more lies. I’m a little surprised he can spell Kenya. Maybe some rubes will slip him a few more bucks that he seems to so desperately need. What other body organs are in big demand?

    How many years would you get for forging a U.S. passport? Is it more if you already have a felony record?

  188. avatar
    Sef March 17, 2011 at 7:45 am #

    I was wondering about visa requirements of US citizens to Kenya and checked http://www.visahq.com/citizens/United-States . A visa for entry into Kenya is required, so Lucas could show his visa page from his passport to prove his assertions.

  189. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 17, 2011 at 8:00 am #

    Majority Will: How many years would you get for forging a U.S. passport?

    It wouldn’t seem to me that forging a foreign stamp on a passport would be a crime in the US.

  190. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 8:10 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It wouldn’t seem to me that forging a foreign stamp on a passport would be a crime in the US.

    Perhaps lawyers can weigh in. I was more interested in how someone would present the legitimate document the stamp is affixed to that would have security features as well as being an official document of the U.S. State Department.

  191. avatar
    Reality Check March 17, 2011 at 9:04 am #

    I seem to recall that Lucas D. Smith swore that he was planning to go to the Congo to find a “dinosaur like” creature named Mbembe when he decided to go to Kenya instead in search of Obama’s birth certificate. Is that the African version of Big Foot? Yep, that was in his “declaration” filed in the Barnett case on 10/12/2009. It is 16 pages of comedy gold, delusions of self importance, and probably the only truth to be taken from it is that that Orly Taitz is the scum of the earth. I highly recommend that you read it.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/22187274/Smith-Lucas-Daniel-Declaration-10-12-2009

  192. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 17, 2011 at 9:14 am #

    Reality Check: I seem to recall that Lucas D. Smith swore that he was planning to go to the Congo to find a “dinosaur like” creature named Mbembe when he decided to go to Kenya instead in search of Obama’s birth certificate. Is that the African version of Big Foot? Yep, that was in his “declaration” filed in the Barnett case on 10/12/2009. It is 16 pages of comedy gold, delusions of self importance, and probably the only truth to be taken from it is that that Orly Taitz is the scum of the earth. I highly recommend that you read it. http://www.scribd.com/doc/22187274/Smith-Lucas-Daniel-Declaration-10-12-2009

    I thought he was looking for a StarGate?

  193. avatar
    Keith March 17, 2011 at 9:23 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: I can see how people might interpret the statement as meaning that I traveled to BOTH Kenya and Mombasa with the same intent. For whatever reason, that was wording that Orly was adamant about using (same with other segments of the declaration too).

    What the F does Orly have to do with it? I thought it was supposed to be your statement. It is supposed to be your words.

    You claim it as your statement, do you not? You signed it, did you not? You defend it, do you not? I don’t recall – did you get it notarized?

    Are you now claiming that that statement is false because it isn’t your words? Is it really Orly’s statement of her poor understanding of the events that took place? Why then do you claim it as your own?

  194. avatar
    Bovril March 17, 2011 at 9:38 am #

    Placing a forged instrument of a 3rd party country on a US passport might not be in an off itself illegal (in the US) however, using it to misrepresent in the US I believe would be.

    The passport itself is the property of the US government and using such official documents to misrepresent and perpetrate a fraud, particularly but not exclusively for financial gain would be a BAAAAAAD thing.

  195. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 9:48 am #

    Bovril:
    Placing a forged instrument of a 3rd party country on a US passport might not be in an off itself illegal (in the US) however, using it to misrepresent in the US I believe would be.

    The passport itself is the property of the US government and using such official documents to misrepresent and perpetrate a fraud, particularly but not exclusively for financial gain would be a BAAAAAAD thing.

    And if the U.S. passport is forged?

  196. avatar
    Bovril March 17, 2011 at 10:57 am #

    Forged passport…Got to Jail, go directly to Jail, Do not pass Go, Do not collect $200.

    http://www.state.gov/m/ds/investigat/c10714.htmhttp://www.state.gov/m/ds/investigat/c10714.htm

    The following statutes mandate the DS investigative authority for passport fraud:

    � 18 USC 1541 Issuance Without Authority
    � 18 USC 1542 False Statement in Application and Use of Passport
    � 18 USC 1543 Forgery or False Use of Passport
    � 18 USC 1544 Misuse of Passport
    � 18 USC 1546 Fraud and Misuse of Visas, Permits, and Other Documents
    � 18 USC 371 Conspiracy to Commit Offense or to Defraud the United States
    � 18 USC 911 False Claim to Citizenship
    � 18 USC 1028 Fraud and Related Activity in Connection with Identification Documents

    Penalties for Passport and Visa Fraud

    Passport and visa fraud are federal felonies. Penalties are:

    � 10 years (for a first offense if not tied to terrorism or drug trafficking)
    � 15 years for fraud with other criminal links
    � 20 years for fraud related to drug trafficking
    � 25 years for fraud related to international terrorism

    Use the telephone for anything related to said forged passport…Wire Fraud as well……..

  197. avatar
    Twinx March 17, 2011 at 11:11 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: Why do you NOT also mention that this story was pulled by the website that published it after they couldn’t confirm that it was a true email

    Link, please.

  198. avatar
    brygenon March 17, 2011 at 11:26 am #

    G: Slartibartfast: Mr. Smith,While I would agree that there is nothing immoral or unethical about selling your kidney (buying it is another matter entirely…) aside from federal laws’, as you put it, those federal laws exist to protect people (as Misha pointed out). I’m glad the sale of your kidney worked out to everyone’s satisfaction, but it certainly doesn’t make me think that those federal laws are a bad idea… (and that explains the events to my satisfaction, thank you).

    Ditto for me on that matter.

    I think you guys are missing the more relevant issue. Medical professionals interview living kidney donors to establish both that the donor gives informed consent, and that the donor is not receiving any illegal inducement. Donors must sign forms stating as much. Lucas Smith would lie for money. It’s what he does.

    Look at his analysis of the ethics of the matter: the lying simply does not appear. It is not a consideration for him. That is Lucas D. Smith.

  199. avatar
    Judge Mental March 17, 2011 at 11:38 am #

    Majority Will: Perhaps lawyers can weigh in. I was more interested in how someone would present the legitimate document the stamp is affixed to that would have security features as well as being an official document of the U.S. State Department.

    …….but the US State Dept isn’t involved in a US citizen getting a visa to visit Kenya. The US State Dept has absolutely nothing to do with the visa process and nor does any other US Govt office.

    You get a visa to visit a country like Kenya by applying directly to the nearest Embassy/Consulate of that country authorised to take visit visa applications. They then stamp the visa in your passport if your application is succesful. It’s as simple as that. If Lucas Smith visited Kenya he has a visit visa stamped in his US passport by the appropriate Kenyan Embassy/Consulate and he has entry and exit date stamps in his passport entered at the Kenyan arrival and departure airports.

    If Mr Smith were to forge anything in relation to Kenyan visas it would have to be by forging what he purports to be copies of the pages from his passport with the Kenyan visa and entry/exit stamps. There are no ‘documents’ to forge in the first place.

  200. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 11:58 am #

    Judge Mental: If Mr Smith were to forge anything in relation to Kenyan visas it would have to be by forging what he purports to be copies of the pages from his passport with the Kenyan visa and entry/exit stamps. There are no documents’ to forge in the first place.

    “but the US State Dept isn’t involved in a US citizen getting a visa to visit Kenya”

    My reference to the State Dept. was for the issuance of and actual U.S. passport only. Not visas.

    I was more interested in the penalty for forging part or all of a U.S. passport (thanks, Bovril) regardless of the fabricated visa stamps. However, if someone were to testify under oath in a U.S. court or to Congress that the trip and the visa stamp was real but was proven to be a forgery, isn’t that perjury and perhaps a few other felonies?

    “If Lucas Smith visited Kenya . . .”

    Unless he can convincingly prove otherwise with verification from a credible third party, I doubt he’s been more than 2,000 miles from Iowa.

  201. avatar
    Sean March 17, 2011 at 11:59 am #

    I don’t know if anyone brought this up, but here goes:

    This document is a hospital souvenir. It has a hospital seal (fake) on it. Why would the hospital and not the parents have this? Why would the hospital need it anyway especially 48 years later? That’s a health dept matter. Am I right?

    Hospitals purge old medical records after a certain amount of years after the patient’s last visit.

    48 years is a long time to hold a souvenir birth certificate for a patient that never returned.

  202. avatar
    Sef March 17, 2011 at 12:07 pm #

    Sean:
    I don’t know if anyone brought this up, but here goes:

    This document is a hospital souvenir. It has a hospital seal (fake) on it. Why would the hospital and not the parents have this? Why would the hospital need it anyway especially 48 years later? That’s a health dept matter. Am I right?

    Hospitals purge old medical records after a certain amount of years after the patient’s last visit.

    48 years is a long time to hold a souvenir birth certificate for a patient that never returned.

    If Lucas’ story, as explained above, is truthful, he was set up. The people in the hospital were ready for the mark to come and get their fake BC. Note that this implies the forgery was done in Kenya. This was probably done so Lucas has plausible deniability. It, of course, does not make the “BC” any more valid.

  203. avatar
    obsolete March 17, 2011 at 12:12 pm #

    Sean: 48 years is a long time to hold a souvenir birth certificate for a patient that never returned.

    Maybe they figured that more members of the Obama family would return, traveling thousands of miles for future pregnancies, small illnesses, broken limbs, routine vaccinations and such.

    “Boy, those Obama’s must sure hate the Hawaiian hospitals. Hang on to their paperwork- they’ll be back.”

  204. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 12:16 pm #

    Sef: If Lucas’ story, as explained above, is truthful, he was set up.The people in the hospital were ready for the mark to come and get their fake BC. Note that this implies the forgery was done in Kenya.This was probably done so Lucas has plausible deniability.It, of course, does not make the “BC” any more valid.

    Either that or there is an old PC with dial-up internet access and pirated, consumer level desktop publishing software sitting on wobbly planks on cinder blocks in a tiny, poorly lit, musty, filthy basement in Iowa.

    Either way.

  205. avatar
    Sef March 17, 2011 at 12:22 pm #

    Majority Will: Either that or there is an old PC with dial-up internet access and pirated, consumer level desktop publishing software sitting on wobbly planks on cinder blocks in a tiny, poorly lit, musty, filthy basement in Iowa.

    Either way.

    Ah, yes, the days of acoustic couplers and ASR-33s.

  206. avatar
    Mary Adams March 17, 2011 at 12:28 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The first question to ask is “what are we looking at”? There are two kinds of birth certificates: hospital-issued souvenirs (without legal significance) and government-issued certified copies (with legal standing). The document we’re discussing here seems to be a cross between the two. On the one hand it purports to be issued by the hospital, signed by a hospital-titled person, and lacks legal attributes such as the parent’s signature and adds a baby footprint. On the other hand it purports to be a legal document, having a certificate number, a seal, and to have been “issued” this year, attributes of a “certified copy.” But a certified copy of a souvenir makes no sense, and the document presented seems neither fish nor fowl.

    “neither fish nor fowl”

    Exactly.
    There is no reason whatsoever for a hospital to make, much less keep a document such Smith’s fake birth certificate.

    Some American hospitals (it does not seem to be the custom anywhere else) give the heirloom ones to the parents but they don’t keep a copy. Why would they?

    Hospitals keep MEDICAL records and even those are not kept indefinitely. Even what is sent to the keeper of vital records is not copied for the medical record – everything on it is already somewhere in the medical record.

    No Lucas, big boo boo. You should have said you got it from the Kenyan govt.

    But then you still have to explain why a person would misspell their own name on an official document, why the baby is off the charts deformed but President Obama is not, and you’ve never been able to come up with another birth certificate from anywhere that gives “width between shoulders”.

  207. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 12:34 pm #

    Majority Will: And if the U.S. passport is forged?

    Hypothetically, a person may be unwilling to disclose their entrance and exit stamps because they were traveling under a false identity – if this is the reason for Mr. Lucas’ reticence, it certainly wouldn’t add any credibility to his claims (Mr. Lucas, if you have an alternative explanation of why you are unwilling to provide evidence of your travel to Kenya, I’m sure we’d all like to hear it…)

  208. avatar
    Loren March 17, 2011 at 12:35 pm #

    Imagine, for a moment, two scenarios.

    In the first, you’ve traveled to a foreign country, and while there, you obtained a copy of a politically and historically explosive document. You bring it back home, and share it with the world, saying that you found it while on a trip overseas.

    In the second, you merely forge a phony explosive document at home. You do as much research as you can to make it look legit (period-accurate terminology, historical names, etc.) in preparing it. Then you share it with the world, claiming that you found it while on a trip overseas.

    Now in both cases, skeptical inquirers will want to know more about this explosive document. They ask for proof of its authenticity. Many allege outright that you forged it yourself.

    Now in the first case, you may not be a document expert or history buff, but there’s one thing you *can* prove: that you did all the things you said you did. You can share evidence that you made the trip to that foreign country, like your passport visas. You can prove that you went to the place where you got the document. Maybe you took pictures of yourself with the document while overseas. Maybe you sent e-mails about the document contemporaneously with finding it.

    While this won’t decisively settle the question of whether the document is authentic (perhaps you were given a forgery made by someone else), it certainly adds to your credibility and helps to affirm your sincerity. When people are accusing you of having never even made the trip, you’re not going to jump straight into arguing historical details. Merely proving the trip, and establishing that you got the document the way you said you did, is the first logical step.

    Now in the second case, you can’t do that. Because you never made any trip. You have no visas, or plane tickets, or pictures. So when people ask you for evidence, any proof of the trip itself is off the table. So if you’re going to defend the document at all, you *have* to go straight to defending the document in some other way.

    And since you forged the document, you already know where to find sources to back up the information you put on the document. Whenever anyone questions why a name appears a certain way, you just point them to the source that you used in designing the forgery. And the more you focus on the little details, the more you hope that people forget that you’ve never actually substantiated your original story.

    It doesn’t take much effort to notice which path Lucas has taken.

  209. avatar
    Judge Mental March 17, 2011 at 12:49 pm #

    Majority Will: “but the US State Dept isn’t involved in a US citizen getting a visa to visit Kenya”My reference to the State Dept. was for the issuance of and actual U.S. passport only. Not visas.I was more interested in the penalty for forging part or all of a U.S. passport (thanks, Bovril) regardless of the fabricated visa stamps. However, if someone were to testify under oath in a U.S. court or to Congress that the trip and the visa stamp was real but was proven to be a forgery, isn’t that perjury and perhaps a few other felonies?“If Lucas Smith visited Kenya . . .”Unless he can convincingly prove otherwise with verification from a credible third party, I doubt he’s been more than 2,000 miles

    I’ve never heard anyone refer to the page of a passport containing a visa stamp as a ‘document’ before, that’s why I didn’t twig that you were talking about a passport when
    in reply to the Doc saying that adding a fake visa stamp to a passport probably didn’t break any US laws, you said……

    “I was more interested in how someone would present the legitimate document the stamp is affixed to that would have security features as well as being an official document of the U.S. State Department”.

    Anyway, no harm done and I certainly agree with you that the aggregate of information available so far would suggest that there is presently no good reason to believe that Mr Smith has ever been to Kenya.

  210. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 12:50 pm #

    brygenon: I think you guys are missing the more relevant issue. Medical professionals interview living kidney donors to establish both that the donor gives informed consent, and that the donor is not receiving any illegal inducement. Donors must sign forms stating as much. Lucas Smith would lie for money. It’s what he does.

    Look at his analysis of the ethics of the matter: the lying simply does not appear. It is not a consideration for him. That is Lucas D. Smith.

    While laws must have been violated to perform the transplant we can’t know for certain that Mr. Lucas violated laws (the organ removal itself could have been illicit and there is no other part that Mr. Lucas would have been required to participate in) – I think that it is important to remember that Mr. Lucas is the VICTIM in this scenario. I’m glad he doesn’t feel victimized, but the laws that were broken exist for HIS protection.

  211. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 12:52 pm #

    Loren:
    Imagine, for a moment, two scenarios.

    [...]

    It doesn’t take much effort to notice which path Lucas has taken.

    Hmmmm…

  212. avatar
    Daniel March 17, 2011 at 1:00 pm #

    Loren: In the first, you’ve traveled to a foreign country, and while there, you obtained a copy of a politically and historically explosive document. You bring it back home, and share it with the world, saying that you found it while on a trip overseas.

    In the second, you merely forge a phony explosive document at home. You do as much research as you can to make it look legit (period-accurate terminology, historical names, etc.) in preparing it. Then you share it with the world, claiming that you found it while on a trip overseas.

    Now in both cases, skeptical inquirers will want to know more about this explosive document. They ask for proof of its authenticity. Many allege outright that you forged it yourself.

    Especially if you’re already a convicted forger….

  213. avatar
    Sef March 17, 2011 at 1:03 pm #

    In the scenarios described by Loren, Lucas is either a fool or a liar.

  214. avatar
    Scientist March 17, 2011 at 1:07 pm #

    Sef: In the scenarios described by Loren, Lucas is either a fool or a liar

    “Or”? Are you saying fools never lie and liars are always smart?

  215. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 1:11 pm #

    Judge Mental: I’ve never heard anyone refer to the page of a passport containing a visa stamp as a document’ before, that’s why I didn’t twig that you were talking about a passport when
    in reply to the Doc saying that adding a fake visa stamp to a passport probably didn’t break any US laws, you said……

    I wasn’t clear enough but you got it. Thanks.

  216. avatar
    Sef March 17, 2011 at 1:12 pm #

    Scientist: “Or”?Are you saying fools never lie and liars are always smart?

    This is the same logical fallacy that birthers spew. I was saying that the actions in each case imply something. This does not preclude anything else.

  217. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 1:14 pm #

    Slartibartfast: While laws must have been violated to perform the transplant we can’t know for certain that Mr. Lucas violated laws (the organ removal itself could have been illicit and there is no other part that Mr. Lucas would have been required to participate in) – I think that it is important to remember that Mr. Lucas is the VICTIM in this scenario.I’m glad he doesn’t feel victimized, but the laws that were broken exist for HIS protection.

    Assuming of course, that the entire organ donation story isn’t yet another elaborate hoax?

  218. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 1:18 pm #

    Mary Adams: But then you still have to explain why a person would misspell their own name on an official document, why the baby is off the charts deformed but President Obama is not, and you’ve never been able to come up with another birth certificate from anywhere that gives “width between shoulders”.

    Or why “1936” is considered adequate for one of the parents date of birth on an allegedly official, legal certificate.

  219. avatar
    Daniel March 17, 2011 at 1:23 pm #

    Majority Will: Or why “1936‘ is considered adequate for one of the parents date of birth on an allegedly official, legal certificate.

    Keep in mind that not everyone was born in a hospital. If the parent were born in a Tardis, for example, the exact date of birth might be a little hard to nail down.

    ;-)

  220. avatar
    Mary Adams March 17, 2011 at 1:23 pm #

    Majority Will: Or why “1936‘ is considered adequate for one of the parents date of birth on an allegedly official, legal certificate.

    Yeah, well, that’s all Wikipedia has… Lucas couldn’t find anything more. LOL.

  221. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 1:28 pm #

    Majority Will: Assuming of course, that the entire organ donation story isn’t yet another elaborate hoax?

    Since the story doesn’t really affect my opinion of Mr. Smith’s (sorry about using ‘Mr. Lucas’ earlier – hadn’t really woken up yet…) credibility (and, as I said, I consider him a victim in the story as stated) I think its validity is more or less moot (besides, the validity of the story doesn’t change my views on organ transplants (I would encourage everyone to register to be an organ donor upon their death, by the way…)).

  222. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 17, 2011 at 1:40 pm #

    Slartibartfast: (sorry about using ‘Mr. Lucas’ earlier

    Mr. Lucas was my school assistant principal. Nice fellow.

  223. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 17, 2011 at 1:42 pm #

    Mary Adams: Yeah, well, that’s all Wikipedia has… Lucas couldn’t find anything more. LOL.

    Actually, the Wikipedia used to have a date of birth for Barack Obama Sr. (April 4, 1936) but it was removed since nobody could find any source for it. It is entirely possible that Barack Obama Sr. did not have a full date of birth. It is not unusual for Africans of that era to use only a year of birth.

  224. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 1:51 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Mr. Lucas was my school assistant principal. Nice fellow.

    I wouldn’t want to cast any aspersions on your assistant principal (nor on George except in regard to the quality of episodes 1-3), but I don’t remember assistant principles as being ‘nice fellows’

  225. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 1:53 pm #

    I should also add that I believe that aspersions should be heaped on Mr. Lucas for ‘Nuking the Fridge’…

  226. avatar
    Sean March 17, 2011 at 1:53 pm #

    Loren:

    And since you forged the document, you already know where to find sources to back up the information you put on the document.Whenever anyone questions why a name appears a certain way, you just point them to the source that you used in designing the forgery.And the more you focus on the little details, the more you hope that people forget that you’ve never actually substantiated your original story.

    It doesn’t take much effort to notice which path Lucas has taken.

    That reminds me of the Alien Autopsy documentary. They went into way too much detail into how it technically could be real, but they never relieved the mystery army cameraman who provided it to them.

  227. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 17, 2011 at 1:54 pm #

    Loren: It doesn’t take much effort to notice which path Lucas has taken.

    I see two paths.

    Mr. Smith forged the certificate with the intention of selling it on eBay to a credulous birther. Indeed eBay canceled a series of auctions by Mr. Smith purporting to contain various documents and research papers about Barack Obama. In this scenario, Smith was only concerned with making a document that a birther would love. And so what was created looks like a certified copy with a hospital administrator’s signature and a raised seal. Birthers know that “real” birth certificates must have a signature and a seal.

    However, eBay wouldn’t allow what Smith was selling and he had to take another route, through birther attorney Orly Taitz. The document was worthless to Taitz to file in court (Barnett v. Obama) without some affidavit as to where it came from. Knowing that Kenyan officials could deny that the document was authentic, the whole idea of the certified copy didn’t work, and the new back story, which appears in Smith’s affidavit, was that he sneaked a copy of the document while a bribed soldier looked the other way. If Kenyan officials denied the document (which they purportedly have) Smith need only claim that the soldier tricked him. The problem with that story, though, is that a file copy of a 1961 document would not have a 2009 hospital administrator’s signature on it, nor would it have a raised seal.

  228. avatar
    Reality Check March 17, 2011 at 1:54 pm #

    Slartibartfast: I wouldn’t want to cast any aspersions on your assistant principal (nor on George except in regard to the quality of episodes 1-3), but I don’t remember assistant principles as being nice fellows’

    Most were football coaches or their assistants who were the enforcers.

  229. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 1:54 pm #

    Slartibartfast: I don’t remember assistant principles as being nice fellows’

    I don’t remember assistant princiPALs as being ‘nice fellows’ either…

  230. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 1:57 pm #

    Slartibartfast: I think that it is important to remember that Mr. Lucas is the VICTIM in this scenario.

    I wholeheartedly disagree. I think it’s another story filled with lies to make you think he’s a victim.

    And yes, there is something morally and legally wrong with people offering and donating organs for profit. It’s sets up underground, black markets for unsafe (no HIV, hepatitis tests, etc.), unsupervised, septic operations and transactions putting lives in imminent danger, the ease for exploitation of people desperate for money, a terrific opportunity for another steady revenue stream for organized crime and the potential to spread diseases from infected donors. Or let’s set the precedent for maintaining humans in organ farms for the richest bidders. Welcome to Robin Cook’s Coma.

    If you want to save someone’s life, you do it for free with signed, legal consent forms by licensed medical professionals who will properly screen the parties involved and operate in an antiseptic environment.

  231. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 1:59 pm #

    Reality Check: Most were football coaches or their assistants who were the enforcers.

    Mine was an enforcer, but the assistant football coach was my Algebra II and Trig teacher… (I would ask him questions that I knew the answers to in order to test him – he usually failed…)

  232. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 17, 2011 at 2:01 pm #

    I look at the Smith document from the point of view of someone who has spent many years working with birth certificates. The nail in the coffin that I see is something that I commented on back in 2009. It is something that someone not in that field might not notice: there is no informant’s signature.

    The attendant attests that the baby was born alive, but it is the informant (usually the mother) who attests to the child’s name and to who the father is. While I have not seen a 1961 hospital-issued birth certificate from the Coast Provincial General Hospital, I know that government-issued certificates have an indication on them of the presence of an informant’s signature from the hospital document.

  233. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 2:03 pm #

    Daniel: Keep in mind that not everyone was born in a hospital. If the parent were born in a Tardis, for example, the exact date of birth might be a little hard to nail down.

    Thus preceding the First Doctor.

  234. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 2:07 pm #

    Majority Will: I wholeheartedly disagree. I think it’s another story filled with lies to make you think he’s a victim.

    I’m sorry, I didn’t state that clearly – in the scenario Mr. Smith describes (hypothetically speaking) the person playing the role in which Mr. Smith cast himself would be the victim. If I had to guess, I’d say that the story is probably broadly true (Mr. Smith did donate a kidney for money), but I don’t think that the matter has enough significance to merit further debate… In any case, we’re both entitled to our own reasons for doubting Mr. Smith’s credibility… (which I’m sure have substantial overlap).

  235. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 2:21 pm #

    Slartibartfast: I’m sorry, I didn’t state that clearly – in the scenario Mr. Smith describes (hypothetically speaking) the person playing the role in which Mr. Smith cast himself would be the victim.If I had to guess, I’d say that the story is probably broadly true (Mr. Smith did donate a kidney for money), but I don’t think that the matter has enough significance to merit further debate…In any case, we’re both entitled to our own reasons for doubting Mr. Smith’s credibility… (which I’m sure have substantial overlap).

    “Objection, your honor! This line of questioning is irrelevant.”
    “It goes to credibility, your honor.”
    “Overruled. The witness must answer.”

    ;-)

  236. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 2:22 pm #

    Majority Will: Daniel: Keep in mind that not everyone was born in a hospital. If the parent were born in a Tardis, for example, the exact date of birth might be a little hard to nail down.

    Thus preceding the First Doctor.

    If born in the TARDIS (which we may presume to have ‘nation’ status…) one’s time of birth would be duly recorded as the TARDIS’s age in its personal timeline. The child (regardless of parentage) would be a natural born companion and entitled to all the rights and privileges thereof (the age of majority and other milestones would be measured in the individual’s personal timeline rather than the TARDIS’s… (although since your official ID would be made of psychic paper, you could legally represent yourself as anything you wanted to…)). Come on, don’t you guys know anything?

  237. avatar
    JoZeppy March 17, 2011 at 2:30 pm #

    Loren: In the second, you merely forge a phony explosive document at home. You do as much research as you can to make it look legit (period-accurate terminology, historical names, etc.) in preparing it. Then you share it with the world, claiming that you found it while on a trip overseas.

    Perhaps you should substitute “share it to the world” with “sell it on ebay”?

  238. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 3:37 pm #

    Majority Will: “Objection, your honor! This line of questioning is irrelevant.”
    “It goes to credibility, your honor.”
    “Overruled. The witness must answer.”

    The problem is that there is no judge to compel answers in this case – thus we are faced with the need to judge for ourselves what weight to put on the ‘kidney story’ in determining Mr. Smith’s credibility – personally I don’t feel that it should have much of an effect on my assessment in any case (whether he is the victim or a liar – given that I know for certain that he is EITHER a victim or a liar in that regard), but I can understand why you would feel differently.

  239. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 3:41 pm #

    Slartibartfast: The problem is that there is no judge to compel answers in this case

    Yet.

    Give it time. Pun intended.

  240. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 3:48 pm #

    Majority Will: Yet.

    Give it time. Pun intended.

    I doubt that there is any lawyer (besides Orly) that would let Mr. Smith anywhere near a judge if he were their witness…

  241. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 17, 2011 at 3:53 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Actually, the Wikipedia used to have a date of birth for Barack Obama Sr. (April 4, 1936) but it was removed since nobody could find any source for it. It is entirely possible that Barack Obama Sr. did not have a full date of birth. It is not unusual for Africans of that era to use only a year of birth.

    Dear Dr Conspiracy,

    With all due respect, most of the accusations on your blog (and many others) which question the many accuracy of many aspects of the birth certificate can be answered by just about anyone that took the time.

    The other day a guy or lady (online) confronted me accusations of forgery because the birth certificate contains the terms AM (ante meridiem) and PM (post meridiem).

    Should I take the time to respond to such wild claims? Sometimes I do, and when I do, invariably the same things then happen: The person keeps making claims about it even after I’ve already answered the question, or, they pretend that it is no longer important and then they move onto their next wild accusation.

    In any event, you (and scores other people) mention that something is probably wrong with birth certificate (i.e. it’s a forgery) because Obama Senior’s birth date only reflects the year (no day or month).

    This is not atypical. Sometimes we as Americans (and Europeans) forget to remember that not all cultures of the world care about dates. Obsessive compulsive behavior is a trait is a trait that was, and is, prevalent (though not exclusive) among white Europeans. This is obvious even in today’s world. I’ve spent several years of my life abroad and long ago it became overtly obvious to me that that dates and times of past are mostly only imperative to anal retentive whites or Europeans. My wife and friends (largely foreigners rarely if ever recall anything by date nor do they place any importance on dates). Many cultures recall events by season and pegging events to other events that happened during the same time period.

    As a sociologist I’ve even found that there are many older Black Americans that were born in the south that do not know their exact dates of births. Most have identification but the birth date listed is fiction and was listed as some in the past as a substitute for something that was a requirement to officially obtain the ID.

    We as Americans tend to forget that America does not make up ‘el mundo entero’. My mother-in-law has never driven a car in her life. I have friends their that graduated high school when they 21 years old. I often drive my car down the wrong side of the street into on coming traffic (to get around slow traffic) there and the police just wave at me (when, if ever, they see it). I also take a shower with buckets of water that me and my family fill up from a ‘tapped’ PVC pipe down the hill from where we live. Our car runs of or natural gas container in the trunk and so does or kitchen stove. The street that I live on is only about 2 1/2 feet wide, I can barely get my ‘moto’ dirt bike motorcycle down it. Th electricity wiring up above the houses and streets looks like giant spider webs that hand here and there and everywhere and they cobbled together with any sort or wire including wire hangers anything scarp wire (no gauge is too small) and the wires are often spliced in with crude metal grips with plastics tap wrapped liberally around the handles. I’ve bought illegal guns from local police for about $300 a piece. Most houses don’t have glass windows we have metal blind that are cranked open day and most nights. I often ride my ‘moto’ with 3 people on it often times 4th person which is baby in someones arms. Sometimes when I am in ‘el campo’ I walk around naked and take showers in the river and time and dates fade away as if they never existed in the first place and then know that I never ever never ever want to set foot upon lands again that ruled by anal retentive types that want me to buy a permit to just about anything and also present my social security number and proof insurance and also pay my annual property tax. Btw, my mother-in-law owns property and she as never paid and annual property tax, and you know why?-because such taxes (rents) do not exist. My wife often prays to saints at night and she lights a candle and makes a request to the saints and most of the time the request soon materializes. Politics are big there an often those running for government office arrive in the poor sectors and set up big makeshift swimming pools and they hand out cash and food in exchange, literally, for your vote. In the past I often kissed and had sex with a girl that was 14 years old (I was 24) and the girls family supported this and wanted me to marry her and become their son in law and everyone knew about it even local police. I once moved out of the slums with my wife to a nice place and I used to bribe the electric company employee with the equivalent of $8 US dollar to not cut my electricity off more another month. When I get sick with ‘gripe’ my wife often melts Vicks vapor run into a runny liquid substance mixed with other ingredients and then I drink it. When I me and a friend of mine once got a really bad rash her mother saved up her urine and the sprayed us down with it. When i drive my a car that is my wife’s name and I get stop at random check point I am always allowed to pass freely once they hear my voice and know that I am an American, I dont have a driver’s license there and I don’t need one. At the airport I can bring anything amount of luggage and electronics into the country as long as I slip about the $30 US dollar in someone’s hands. Electricity goes on and off throughout the day and what a lot people does is they hook a car battery into the wiring in their house. While the power is on this charged the car battery and then when the power goes the house runs on the car battery. Sometime when the juice is near gone from car battery the lights in the house dim and the all the fans run slow and make a warping sound. Btw, we have to sleep under fan at night because this block the mosquitoes because the aren’t strong enough to fly into the fans breeze.

    Does all of that sound like the life you know it? I think not. I don’t understand why American apply their norms to the rest of the world as if we all think a like and have the same culture, norms and rule society.

    I closing, check out page 6 of the book “Tom Mboya: The Man Kenya Wanted to Forget” by David Goldsworthy. Tom Mboya didn’t even know what year he was born in.

  242. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 17, 2011 at 4:01 pm #

    Nice sob story Lucas but it is merely a distraction to play yourself as a victim of your own forgeries. Why is Manganas “signature” on the document when he wasn’t the administrator at the time the certificate was supposedly made?

    Why can’t you prove you went to Kenya? What was the purpose of selling it on ebay? If you’re as altruistic as you claimed you wouldn’t be trying to make a buck from it.

  243. avatar
    Black Lion March 17, 2011 at 4:05 pm #

    So Lucas, despite all of your pontificating you still haven’t proven that Obama Sr. did not know the date of his birth. A man that was so educated and would be a graduate of Harvard, I would find that highly unlikely. Your attempt to confuse things by using irrelevant anecdotal evidence notwithstanding. Your entire explanation relies on a theory that because Tom Mboya might not have known his birthdate then it is likely that Obama Sr did not know his either. That doesn’t pass muster. For your theory to work you would have to show us school documents, Kenyan passport records, or a marriage certificate where there was no date for Obama Sr. Until then you just have speculation.

    Still this does not take into consideration your utter lack of supporting proof that you have ever visited Kenya nor explaining how the signature of the hospital administrator in 2009’s signature appeared on a document purported to have been made in 1961….These questions you decline to answer is why no one believes your story…..Although the infamous tape of the kids in the Caribbean was a nice attempt….

  244. avatar
    Scientist March 17, 2011 at 4:12 pm #

    So, Lucas, given your story, why does it matter to you where the President was born? Why is the particular spot of planet Earth where you bellieve he was born of any importance at all (by the way, it isn’t to me; I believe he should be judged on his record in office and nothing else)? And please don’t tell me you’re a stickler for legal nicities, since you have, by your own admission, committed multiple felonies.

  245. avatar
    Daniel March 17, 2011 at 4:19 pm #

    Tell me Lucas….

    If someone who was a convicted forger, handed you a highly improbable document, with numerous apparent errors, and in opposition to official documents…

    And wanted you to take it at face value….

    What would you do?

    I’m really interested in hearing your answer to this question.

    But I suspect you’ll ignore it.

  246. avatar
    Daniel March 17, 2011 at 4:21 pm #

    Black Lion: So Lucas, despite all of your pontificating you still haven’t proven that Obama Sr. did not know the date of his birth. A man that was so educated and would be a graduate of Harvard, I would find that highly unlikely. Your attempt to confuse things by using irrelevant anecdotal evidence notwithstanding. Your entire explanation relies on a theory that because Tom Mboya might not have known his birthdate then it is likely that Obama Sr did not know his either. That doesn’t pass muster. For your theory to work you would have to show us school documents, Kenyan passport records, or a marriage certificate where there was no date for Obama Sr. Until then you just have speculation.

    Shoulda/woulda/coulda is the currency of birthers

  247. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 17, 2011 at 4:21 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy:
    From the beginning I have been a little uncomfortable with this article. Its back story is that this professional pressman looked over the document, spotted some obvious problems, and noted them. However, as Lucas Smith points out, there is unnecessary jargon scattered around that seems to be there just to add credibility to the story. My alarm bells went off instantly.

    The reason I posted the story, however, is that regardless of whoever wrote it, and whatever their qualifications are, there are specific claims made that should be confirmable or refutable:

    1) The typeface is Adobe Caslon (a modern variant of Caslon nonexistent in 1961).
    2) There is an “ny” ligature that wouldn’t have been plausibly available prior to digital typography.

    So far, I have not been able to learn enough to verify the first claim. However, assuming the Smith Certificate is of sufficient quality, one should be able to verify or refute the claim.

    Any one can see what looks like an “ny” ligature. I have not yet found a book printed in the late 1950′s printed with Caslon, but I haven’t given up on that. One old book I did find in a different typeface did not have the “ny” ligature.

    I think it’s nice that we have a research project that has a chance of going somewhere.

    Dear Dr. Conspiracy,

    I’ve found examples of overlapping kerning now on an official 1938 Colonial Report from the Kenya Colony and Protectorate.

    See page 61 of the report. You’ll find the word ‘tariff’ one two occasions on the bottom segment of the page. Look at the first one. The top of the first ‘f’ is CLEARLY ON TOP of the other ‘f’. Furthermore, the top of the first ‘f’ is CLEARLY LONGER than the second ‘f’.

    Furthermore, and perhaps more interesting, please see page one, bottom half. Look at the word “Kingsway” and then further down at the word “any”. While the ‘ay’ in Kingsway might appear somewhat normal typeset, the ‘ny’ in “any” appears to be almost exactly in the same kerned manner on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc. The bottom of the ‘y’ is just as much under the ‘n’ as it is on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc.

    Dr. Conspiracy, I told you that the supposed expert ‘pressman’ (yes, that is the terminology) was full horse droppings. Futhermore, the ‘n’ appears to snuggled just as close to the ‘y’ as it is on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc.

    Lastly, I bought the report in January of 2010. I scanned it into my Patriot1980 scribd account back on April 21, 2010. I thought to check it now for kerning after I was alerted by my friend Bsteadman1 that just found a 1960 Kenya report with similar kerning. today I checked the 1960 report that he found online to view the font but, it’s in Google Books and that is much to blurry to make out conclusively. So then I remembered that I have the tangible 1938 report uploaded to my scribd. You can make it out very clearly if you download (as a PDF) the report from my scribd account and the enlarge it on your computer with Adobe Acrobat. It’s a clear as day.

    Link:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/30311179/Colonial-Report-Annual-Kenya-Colony-and-Protectorate-1938

    You stated that you are interested in serious research and that your blog is a research project. I hope that you will take seriously my evidence today and report on it properly and impartially.

    Thank you.

    Lucas D. Smith

  248. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 17, 2011 at 4:28 pm #

    Sean: You seem to cotradict yourself in this post. You claim you like university style debate, yet you accuse me of domestic violence toward the end. That means YOU lost the debate.

    Obviously you lost sleep last night because an experienced person found another problem with your forgery and you had to do damage control.

    You take the discussion of document creation into a different ball game all together: color book cover artwork. Not the same thing In order to do a lithograph you have to have an original to work with. You’re implying that this document was etched. Why spend the time and money to etch something as plain as that document?

    You got caught. If you forged this document yourself, learn from your mistakes. If you paid someone to do it for you, demand your money back. If they don’t refund your money, you tell them to see me.

    Sean,

    I’ve found examples of overlapping kerning now on an official 1938 Colonial Report from the Kenya Colony and Protectorate.

    See page 61 of the report. You’ll find the word tariff’ one two occasions on the bottom segment of the page. Look at the first one. The top of the first f’ is CLEARLY ON TOP of the other f’. Furthermore, the top of the first f’ is CLEARLY LONGER than the second f’.

    Furthermore, and perhaps more interesting, please see page one, bottom half. Look at the word “Kingsway” and then further down at the word “any”. While the ay’ in Kingsway might appear somewhat normal typeset, the ny’ in “any” appears to be almost exactly in the same kerned manner on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc. The bottom of the ‘y’ is just as much under the n’ as it is on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc.

    Supposed expert pressman’ (yes, that is the terminology) was full horse droppings. Futhermore, the n’ appears to snuggled just as close to the ‘y’ as it is on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc.

    Lastly, I bought the report in January of 2010. I scanned it into my Patriot1980 scribd account back on April 21, 2010. I thought to check it now for kerning after I was alerted by my friend Bsteadman1 that just found a 1960 Kenya report with similar kerning. today I checked the 1960 report that he found online to view the font but, it’s in Google Books and that is much to blurry to make out conclusively. So then I remembered that I have the tangible 1938 report uploaded to my scribd. You can make it out very clearly if you download (as a PDF) the report from my scribd account and the enlarge it on your computer with Adobe Acrobat. It’s a clear as day.

    Link:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/30311179/Colonial-Report-Annual-Kenya-Colony-and-Protectorate-1938

    Read and weep. I can send you flowers and a get well card if you like.

  249. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 17, 2011 at 4:33 pm #

    Daniel:
    Tell me Lucas….

    If someone who was a convicted forger, handed you a highly improbable document, with numerous apparent errors, and in opposition to official documents…

    And wanted you to take it at face value….

    What would you do?

    I’m really interested in hearing your answer to this question.

    But I suspect you’ll ignore it.

    Sir, people like you keep pretending that their are “numerous apparent errors” on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc. As far as I can tell everything appears to be accurate. No matter how many times I explain everything people like you will still pretend as if I never answered.

    Why is such behavior needed if the document is clearly a forgery? Why can’t people like you stick with the facts? Why do you have to resort to trickery and deceit?

  250. avatar
    Loren March 17, 2011 at 4:38 pm #

    Black Lion:
    Although the infamous tape of the kids in the Caribbean was a nice attempt….

    It’s also hilarious to watch Birthers claim that the videos prove Smith went to Kenya. It’s a bizarre conclusion, since in all but one of the videos, he’s explicitly talking about WorldNetDaily articles that ran in July/August 2009. So they *can’t* be videos shot during a phantom trip in February 2009.

  251. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 4:41 pm #

    Loren: It’s also hilarious to watch Birthers claim that the videos prove Smith went to Kenya.It’s a bizarre conclusion, since in all but one of the videos, he’s explicitly talking about WorldNetDaily articles that ran in July/August 2009.So they *can’t* be videos shot during a phantom trip in February 2009.

    Because video can’t be edited? I’m not sure what your reasoning is here…

  252. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 4:44 pm #

    Mr. Smith,

    I’ll let others comment on your interpretation of the images (for myself, they weren’t persuasive), but I checked several instances in the body of the text and none of the ‘y’s were kerned…

  253. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 17, 2011 at 4:46 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Sir, people like you keep pretending that their are “numerous apparent errors” on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc. As far as I can tell everything appears to be accurate. No matter how many times I explain everything people like you will still pretend as if I never answered.Why is such behavior needed if the document is clearly a forgery? Why can’t people like you stick with the facts? Why do you have to resort to trickery and deceit?

    To you they seem right? Why is that unless you think your forgery work is top class. Once again why is Manganas signature on the document when he wasn’t administrator in 1961?

  254. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 17, 2011 at 4:47 pm #

    Slartibartfast: Mr. Smith,I’ll let others comment on your interpretation of the images (for myself, they weren’t persuasive), but I checked several instances in the body of the text and none of the ‘y’s were kerned…

    I dont think Mr Smith understands what Kerning is

  255. avatar
    Scientist March 17, 2011 at 4:50 pm #

    Lucas, Don’t ignore me bro’, I’m trying to help you here. If you’re just trying to make a buck, then I sympathize; times are tough (at least if you missed out on the Obama bull market). But why are you hanging around with that birther crowd? I mean what’s it to you where someone was born? Your profile as someone who violates the law at will and doesn’t care about dates or places doesn’t jibe with making a big stink over a birth certificate, does it?

  256. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 17, 2011 at 4:53 pm #

    Slartibartfast:
    Mr. Smith,

    I’ll let others comment on your interpretation of the images (for myself, they weren’t persuasive), but I checked several instances in the body of the text and none of the ‘y’s were kerned…

    Sir, did you download the PDF and blow it up as I suggested? Specifically, the first use of the word “Tariff” (used twice) you’ll find that the ‘ff’ in CLEARY overlapping kerning.

    If you claim otherwise, Sir, you are playing games here.

    Lastly, what i find to be not “persuasive” is that they lettering on the 1961 CPGH Obama contains overlapping kerning. The more I look at the birth certificate the more I wonder if it’s just tight kerning. There are blemishes all over it and the top half is warped like a wave and it almost appears as if some of it nothing more than ink bleeds or distortions from copy machine or fax.

    However, the 1938 report from Kenya is quite clear in image. Download it. No more games, please, Sir.

  257. avatar
    Mary Adams March 17, 2011 at 4:56 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Sir, people like you keep pretending that their are “numerous apparent errors” on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc. As far as I can tell everything appears to be accurate.

    There ARE numerous errors and your excuses are twaddle.

    You have not addresses the absurd weight/length nor have you demonstrated that “width between shoulders” is a newborn measurement taken for any reason other than a few isolated studies.

    And your long-winded excuse for Obama Srs. lack of birth date is just more BS.

    Somehow Lolo Soetoro, born in 1935 in a third world country, managed to come up with a birthdate.

    Obama Srs father was relatively well off. He was particular about table manners and owned fine china. These people were not savages living in the bush.

  258. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 17, 2011 at 4:56 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): I dont think Mr Smith understands what Kerning is

    I understand very well what it is. At this point you people will say anything. What a bunch of pathetic wretches. Have a little dignity. I doubt you even downloaded the PDF to enlarge it.

  259. avatar
    raicha March 17, 2011 at 4:56 pm #

    No document purporting to be President Obama’s Kenyan birth certificate has ever been “admitted as evidence” in any US court.

    Documents that are submitted to a court are not automatically “admitted” as evidence. Unless the documents are properly authenticated, they will not be admitted as evidence and the court will not consider the document as proof of any claim.

    In Rhodes v. Obama, Judge Land questioned Orly Taitz extensively regarding the provenance of the Lucas Smith document, as Taitz had utterly failed to provide any proof that the document was admissible under the rules of evidence. She was unable to authenticate the document arguing 1) that she needed “letters interrogatory” before she could do so, and 2) that it was unfair to require her to authenticate documents that she, an officer of the court, had presented as true.

    Her case was dismissed.

    The Smith document has never been accepted as evidence.

  260. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 17, 2011 at 5:05 pm #

    Mary Adams: There ARE numerous errors and your excuses are twaddle.

    You have not addresses the absurd weight/length nor have you demonstrated that “width between shoulders” is a newborn measurement taken for any reason other than a few isolated studies.

    And your long-winded excuse for Obama Srs. lack of birth date is just more BS.

    Somehow Lolo Soetoro, born in 1935 in a third world country, managed to come up with a birthdate.

    Obama Srs father was relatively well off. He was particular about table manners and owned fine china. These people were not savages living in the bush.

    Read before you post. I’ve long ago addressed the ‘width between shoulders’ (as if you or anyone else really knows what does and doesn’t belong on a 1961 hospital birth certificate from the protectorate of kenya.

    See the report by James Ang’awa titled ‘Rupture of the Uterus in East Africa’. You’ll see that the Ang’awa talks about ‘shoulder presentation’ and it’s possible complications during child birth.

    Any objective minded person can put the to together and see that possibly during the time doctors in East Africa measured what they termed as ‘width between shoulders’ as a study on ‘shoulder presentation’ being a cause if miscarriages and still born and other problems during child birth.

    So please stop pretending that I haven’t answered this 100 times elsewhere. And stop pretending that you or I or anyone knows what data should and should not be on a old foreign birth record.

    And I really hope that people will stop pretending that they know all about life in 1939 colonial Kenya.

  261. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 5:05 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: http://www.scribd.com/doc/30311179/Colonial-Report-Annual-Kenya-Colony-and-Protectorate-1938

    Upon re-examination, neither the ‘y’ in Kingsway nor the one in ‘any’ show any kerning to me. As for the ‘ff’, the bars on the ‘f’s connect so you can’t tell where one ends and the other starts and while the letters look slightly different, I don’t know if this is the result of a ligature, two different ‘f’ blocks (which seems unlikely), or a scan artifact.

  262. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 17, 2011 at 5:14 pm #

    Slartibartfast: Upon re-examination, neither the ‘y’ in Kingsway nor the one in any’ show any kerning to me.As for the ff’, the bars on the f’s connect so you can’t tell where one ends and the other starts and while the letters look slightly different, I don’t know if this is the result of a ligature, two different f’ blocks (which seems unlikely), or a scan artifact.

    Sir, you just COMPLETELY ignored what I said. I’m not talking about the ‘bars’ on the “ff” in the FIRST “Tariff”. For a third time now I will states, the TOP segment of the ‘f’, you know, the over hang.

    If you tell me that the first overhang (which is even longer than the second) does not hang into the next ‘f’, then, well Sir, you are lair. A big liar.

    Now stop with the kid games.

  263. avatar
    JoZeppy March 17, 2011 at 5:15 pm #

    Mr. Smith.

    For all your protestations, just accept the fact, your piece of paper isn’t fit for much more than lining a bird cage. Even if it looked just like an actual Kenyan birth certificate, didn’t make the baby Obama a dwarf, and didn’t have all sorts of other issues with it (which for someone who claims only to have bribed a few people to get, you oddly have an answer for everything), it would still be worthless. Do you honestly think no one has noticed that you refuse to even acknoweldge the questions regarding proving you ever when to Kenya?

    Add to that that all we have are your most improbable claims as to the authenticity of the document. A convicted forger claims to have received (through bribery) a document of great historic and political import, and the first thing he does is to put it up on ebay. We are to believe a convicted forger, who was willing to sell his organs for cash, is being truthful when is says he just happened upon the President’s Kenyan birth cetificate…that he’s willing to sell to the highest bidder. Sir, quite simply, you have no credibility. The fact that you purport to have an answer to every problem with the birth certificate doesn’t exactly help you. So we are to believe that in addition to being a forger, you are an expert in African written laguages, record keeping, medical community, and printing? You are quite simply full of B.S. There isn’t a single reason why any honest person should accept your word over those of the government officials in Hawaii.

    Again, it is very telling that in the years since you first tried to sell this bunk on ebay, the best proof you have that you ever went to Kenya is that sad video of your carribean vacation. Just give up. We’re just not gullible enough to buy your lies.

  264. avatar
    gorefan March 17, 2011 at 5:16 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I doubt you even downloaded the PDF to enlarge it.

    I’m looking at the 1938 document. On the Page 2 under the heading of Geography, Climate and History, the word Kenya appears and there is clearly no kerning. The last word on the page is colony, it also doesn’t show kerning. In fact, there are a number of examples on this one page of the letter y and none of them show signs of kerning.

    Is this what you wanted us to see?

  265. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 17, 2011 at 5:17 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I understand very well what it is. At this point you people will say anything. What a bunch of pathetic wretches. Have a little dignity. I doubt you even downloaded the PDF to enlarge it.

    Funny out of all the things I said to you this is the one you decided to respond to. What kind of press did you use to make the certificate?

    And the Irony Meter explodes once again. You have already proven that you will say or do anything including sell a kidney to make a buck. You are a desperate man and thus far you avoid most of the questions posed to you.

  266. avatar
    Mary Adams March 17, 2011 at 5:18 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I’ve long ago addressed the width between shoulders’

    As I said THAT IS TWADDLE.

    An obscure measurement taken for an obscure study would be entered into the medical record an entered into the study data. IT would NOT be made a field in a birth certificate.

    The measurements taken at birth are weight, length, head circumference, chest and abdomen circumferences. There is a REASON for comparing and getting baselines of those measurements.

    There is NO other reason for that measurement and YOU WILL NOT find it anywhere else. The baby is NOT going to pass thru the birth canal again, so there is NO purpose except in a study.

    You STILL have not addressed the fact that poor “baby Obama” is grossly short while President Obama is of above average height.

    Do we know if anyone has requested Obama Sr’s Student records via FOIA? I’d be really interested to know if his birthdate is on them like Lolo’s.

  267. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 17, 2011 at 5:20 pm #

    Howling Coyote: Mr. Smith, these lowly two letters are only a smattering of what is inaccurate about your document.

    Hey, thanks for coming by. If you don’t mind, I have a question. What hallmarks can I look for to verify that the typeface is Adobe Caslon as opposed to some other Caslon variant?

  268. avatar
    JoZeppy March 17, 2011 at 5:20 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: And I really hope that people will stop pretending that they know all about life in 1939 colonial Kenya.

    says the man who seems to have an answer to every possible question about a document he just picked up in Kenya. Funny how you’re an expert in printing, African written language, medical community, record keeping, etc.

    oh the irony!

  269. avatar
    Mary Adams March 17, 2011 at 5:21 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: And I really hope that people will stop pretending that they know all about life in 1939 colonial Kenya.

    I know what is in President Obama’s books.

    You didn’t bother to read them or you’d know that he says he weighed 8lbs 2 oz at birth, not 7lbs 1oz.

  270. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 5:22 pm #

    Slartibartfast: I doubt that there is any lawyer (besides Orly) that would let Mr. Smith anywhere near a judge if he were their witness…

    Or Donofrio or Apuzzo. Maybe even Berg or Kreep. And Jensen could be feeling adventurous again.

  271. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 17, 2011 at 5:24 pm #

    gorefan: I’m looking at the 1938 document.On the Page 2 under the heading of Geography, Climate and History, the word Kenya appears and there is clearly no kerning.The last word on the page is colony, it also doesn’t show kerning.In fact, there are a number of examples on this one page of the letter y and none of them show signs of kerning.

    Is this what you wanted us to see?

    I never said jack about the word Kenya or the word Colony. Do you understand written word? I pointed out examples (and not the ones that you just picked) just as the ‘pressmen’ pointed out examples (or rather, one example is all he gave) on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc.

    I almost feel sorry for most of you people on this blog. It appears that most of you people aren’t serious skeptics defending Obama for what you believe is unjust. What it does now appear to be is that most of you people are here because you enjoy playing games.

    Until I hear back from Dr Conspiracy I am out of this weird place that you people call hom in cyberspace.

  272. avatar
    James M March 17, 2011 at 5:26 pm #

    It’s not unusual at all for the letter “f” to have special type blocks for various ligatures.

    But arguing about the typesetting of the document is getting WAY off the beam.

    Why can’t Smith give any evidence to support his claims about the provenance of the document?

  273. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 5:26 pm #

    JoZeppy:
    Mr. Smith.

    For all your protestations, just accept the fact, your piece of paper isn’t fit for much more than lining a bird cage.Even if it looked just like an actual Kenyan birth certificate, didn’t make the baby Obama a dwarf, and didn’t have all sorts of other issues with it (which for someone who claims only to have bribed a few people to get, you oddly have an answer for everything), it would still be worthless.Do you honestly think no one has noticed that you refuse to even acknoweldge the questions regarding proving you ever when to Kenya?

    Add to that that all we have are your most improbable claims as to the authenticity of the document.A convicted forger claims to have received (through bribery) a document of great historic and political import, and the first thing he does is to put it up on ebay.We are to believe a convicted forger, who was willing to sell his organs for cash, is being truthful when is says he just happened upon the President’s Kenyan birth cetificate…that he’s willing to sell to the highest bidder.Sir, quite simply, you have no credibility.The fact that you purport to have an answer to every problem with the birth certificate doesn’t exactly help you.So we are to believe that in addition to being a forger, you are an expert in African written laguages, record keeping, medical community, and printing?You are quite simply full of B.S.There isn’t a single reason why any honest person should accept your word over those of the government officials in Hawaii.

    Again, it is very telling that in the years since you first tried to sell this bunk on ebay, the best proof you have that you ever went to Kenya is that sad video of your carribean vacation.Just give up.We’re just not gullible enough to buy your lies.

    Hear, hear.

  274. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 17, 2011 at 5:30 pm #

    JoZeppy: says the man who seems to have an answer to every possible question about a document he just picked up in Kenya.Funny how you’re an expert in printing, African written language, medical community, record keeping, etc.

    oh the irony!

    I know about features and data on the 1961 CPGH bc because, unlike you and most others, I’ve done a tremendous amount of research to ascertain the authenticity of document. Why don’t you and other critics do the same?

    As for African culture and history: I love Africa and I have read and studies about Africa since I was boy. I have always enjoyed experiencing foreign cultures and I have spent several years abroad. Some of my closest and dearest friends live the Democratic Republic of the Congo. I often send them money, hygiene products and sometimes food.

    I have a great love for Africa.

  275. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 17, 2011 at 5:30 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I never said jack about the word Kenya or the word Colony. Do you understand written word? I pointed out examples (and not the ones that you just picked) just as the pressmen’ pointed out examples (or rather, one example is all he gave) on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc.I almost feel sorry for most of you people on this blog. It appears that most of you people aren’t serious skeptics defending Obama for what you believe is unjust. What it does now appear to be is that most of you people are here because you enjoy playing games.Until I hear back from Dr Conspiracy I am out of this weird place that you people call hom in cyberspace.

    Again? You’re going to take your toys and leave the sandbox again like you said you would what 2 days ago? Like a slimy deviant you slip away when you get found out

  276. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 17, 2011 at 5:32 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I know about features and data on the 1961 CPGH bc because, unlike you and most others, I’ve done a tremendous amount of research to ascertain the authenticity of document. Why don’t you and other critics do the same?As for African culture and history: I love Africa and I have read and studies about Africa since I was boy. I have always enjoyed experiencing foreign cultures and I have spent several years abroad. Some of my closest and dearest friends live the Democratic Republic of the Congo. I often send them money, hygiene products and sometimes food.I have a great love for Africa.

    Ah yes must do enough research to forge the document. Again why is Manganas signature on there when he wasn’t administrator then? Why can’t you prove you even went there?

    What did the guard’s uniform look like who gave it to you? What was his rank?

  277. avatar
    Mary Adams March 17, 2011 at 5:34 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I’ve done a tremendous amount of research to forge the document.

    FIFY.

    And yet you still made NUMEROUS errors.

  278. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 5:34 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): Again?You’re going to take your toys and leave the sandbox again like you said you would what 2 days ago?Like a slimy deviant you slip away when you get found out

    Personally, I like the irony in the fact that Mr. Smith had already returned before you made this comment…

  279. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 17, 2011 at 5:35 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I never said jack about the word Kenya or the word Colony. Do you understand written word? I pointed out examples (and not the ones that you just picked) just as the pressmen’ pointed out examples (or rather, one example is all he gave) on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc.

    That’s the problem. “Ny” is the combination under discussion in the article. The pressman’s assertion is that “ny” ligatures were not part of the available type set. That seems to be the case in normal print (as opposed to large titles and art) that we’ve seen so far). The photo at the top of this article shows a ligature.

  280. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 5:36 pm #

    “I was alerted by my friend Bsteadman1″

    Ah yes. The anti-Obama FUD master and compulsively prolific birther troll who squawks all of the debunked birther talking points.

    That explains a lot. Smith’s accomplice.

    B Steadman, professional birther troll:

    “Barack Hussein Obama II was born August 4, 1961 at the Coast Province General Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya and not in Hawaii as he claims. This may explain why he refuses to allow Hawaii to release of a long-form copy of his birth certificate. A high resolution copy of Obama’s Kenyan birth certificate is available for free download at [redacted]

    The fascinating story of how Lucas Daniel Smith obtained a certified copy of Obama’s birth certificate directly from the birth hospital on February 19, 2009 is included as part of his ‘July 4, 2010 Letter to Congress’, which is also available for free download at the same website.

    The Hawaiian Certification of Live Birth (COLB) foisted upon a confused American public by Mr. Obama neither identifies nor bears a signature of the attending doctor and it does not even name the birth hospital…. Four (4) different, computer-generated internet images have been released, but not one of them gives the Date Accepted by State Registrar’ as it should, but only the Date Filed by Registrar’…. Recent, specialized computer analysis of the original’ COLB displayed on DailyKOS shows that there is no indication of a Serial Number present on the layer beneath the black redact panel’, indicating forgery of the document…. Tim Adams, senior election official during the 2008 presidential campaign, has sworn an affidavit stating that no birth certificate for Obama existed in Hawaii at that time.”

    Fascinating to whom?

  281. avatar
    Daniel March 17, 2011 at 5:36 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Daniel:
    Tell me Lucas….

    If someone who was a convicted forger, handed you a highly improbable document, with numerous apparent errors, and in opposition to official documents…

    And wanted you to take it at face value….

    What would you do?

    I’m really interested in hearing your answer to this question.

    But I suspect you’ll ignore it.

    Sir, people like you keep pretending that their are “numerous apparent errors” on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc. As far as I can tell everything appears to be accurate. No matter how many times I explain everything people like you will still pretend as if I never answered.

    Why is such behavior needed if the document is clearly a forgery? Why can’t people like you stick with the facts? Why do you have to resort to trickery and deceit?

    OK lmao, let me trim it a bit, since you ignored the real important part….

    If someone who was a convicted forger, handed you a … document, …in opposition to official documents…

    And wanted you to take it at face value….

    What would you do?

    Now please notice the “convicted forger” part, which is the real crux of the issue. I’m really still interested in seeing your answer, ratehr than your attempt to weasel out from under the question.

    And no, I still don’t expect you to actually answer the question.

  282. avatar
    kimba March 17, 2011 at 5:41 pm #

    You, Lucas Smith are like a 13 year old who has been caught faking his Mom’s signature on an absence slip. You have an explanation for everything and one explanation contradicts the next.

    The dead giveaway that the document is a forgery is how vigorously, you, Lucas Smith, a convicted forger, are defending the technical and factual problems with the document. Forget the gobbledegook about fonts and kerning, you’re a forger trying to cover the defects in the item you forged because we got your goat by finding the flaws in your work.

    The truth is you tried to create what looked like a 48 year old document and then f@cked up by putting on it the signature of the contemporary hospital administrator. And the footie print was your second biggest f@ckup. You might have been able to fool people who wanted to believe, but you can’t fool people with just a lick of common sense.

    For the record, I believe you currently have 2 working kidneys.

  283. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 17, 2011 at 5:41 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Until I hear back from Dr Conspiracy I am out of this weird place that you people call hom[e] in cyberspace.

    I don’t expect to have anything substantive to add to this topic until I complete some research, I hope by next Tuesday.

    http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#hominem

  284. avatar
    Daniel March 17, 2011 at 5:41 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: And I really hope that people will stop pretending that they know all about life in 1939 colonial Kenya.

    You first…..

    ;-)

  285. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 5:47 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Sir, you just COMPLETELY ignored what I said. I’m not talking about the bars’ on the “ff” in the FIRST “Tariff”. For a third time now I will states, the TOP segment of the f’, you know, the over hang.

    Because the bars on the ‘f’s touch, it is impossible to tell where one begins and the other ends, but the pixel columns in the image are clear and the bar of the first ‘f’ ends in the pixel column before the vertical part of the second ‘f’ begins. Furthermore, upon more careful examination, the width (in pixels) from the right hand side of the top of the ‘f’ (the ‘flag’?) to the left hand side of the vertical part of the ‘f’ is the same for both ‘f’s – looks like a scan artifact to me…

    If you tell me that the first overhang (which is even longer than the second) does not hang into the next f’, then, well Sir, you are lair.A big liar.

    Okay, you think I’m a liar – I think that you are an inept forger. I wonder which one of us is more credible…

    Now stop with the kid games.

    I’m sorry that your inability to defend your forgery has forced you to run away again… Maybe you should try to pimp your Kenyan BC over at drkatesview – they’ll believe ANYTHING there… (NWO, Bilderbergs, chemtrails, reptiloids, 9/11 truth, you name it…)

  286. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 17, 2011 at 5:50 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I know about features and data on the 1961 CPGH bc because, unlike you and most others, I’ve done a tremendous amount of research to ascertain the authenticity of document. Why don’t you and other critics do the same?

    Now that is a rather curious comment from someone who claims to have gotten the document directly from the hospital in Kenya. Why would you have any need to ascertain its authenticity? I wouldn’t doubt that you’ve done extensive research to defend its authenticity, but if your affidavit is true, you more than anyone should know whether it’s real or fake without any research.

  287. avatar
    Patrick McKinnion March 17, 2011 at 5:52 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Dear Dr Conspiracy,

    …In the past I often kissed and had sex with a girl that was 14 years old (I was 24) and the girls family supported this and wanted me to marry her and become their son in law and everyone knew about it even local police.

    Interesting admission Mr. Lucas. Particularly in light of US Code 18, Paragraph 2423, sections C and F.

    “18 U.S.C. § 2423 (2008)

    § 2423. TRANSPORTATION OF MINORS

    (c) Engaging in illicit sexual conduct in foreign places. Any United States citizen or alien admitted for permanent residence who travels in foreign commerce, and engages in any illicit sexual conduct with another person shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

    (f) Definition. As used in this section, the term “illicit sexual conduct” means (1) a sexual act (as defined in section 2246 [18 USCS § 2246]) with a person under 18 years of age that would be in violation of chapter 109A [18 USCS §§ 2241 et seq.] if the sexual act occurred in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States; or (2) any commercial sex act (as defined in section 1591 [18 USCS § 1591]) with a person under 18 years of age.”

    I’m sure the authorities would like to know as well…..

  288. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 5:54 pm #

    Slartibartfast: If you tell me that the first overhang (which is even longer than the second) does not hang into the next f’, then, well Sir, you are lair.A big liar.

    Okay, you think I’m a liar – I think that you are an inept forger. I wonder which one of us is more credible…

    I’m confused. Is he claiming you are a lair or a liar? And why not a rail?

  289. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 5:56 pm #

    Majority Will: I’m confused. Is he claiming you are a lair or a liar? And why not a rail?

    He’s constructed a lair… in which is concealed a great big lyin’… ;-)

  290. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 5:57 pm #

    Majority Will: I’m confused. Is he claiming you are a lair or a liar? And why not a rail?

    Rails are right out!

  291. avatar
    raicha March 17, 2011 at 6:04 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Now that is a rather curious comment from someone who claims to have gotten the document directly from the hospital in Kenya. Why would you have any need to ascertain its authenticity? I wouldn’t doubt that you’ve done extensive research to defend its authenticity, but if your affidavit is true, you more than anyone should know whether it’s real or fake without any research.

    I’m not defending Mr. Smith in any way nor do I believe his story(ies), but if it were true that he did indeed bribe a person at the hospital to obtain this document, he could not be certain that the person(s) had not forged the document while he waited. So, he might be motivated to conduct a “tremendous amount of research to ascertain the authenticity of the document”.

    But of course, this is all quite pointless as Mr. Smith’s version(s) of the document’s origin only serve to confirm that the document can never be admitted as evidence in a court of law.

    The document is completely valueless. Discussion of kerning, the fonts, etc., while interesting to those of us who study the various convicted felons who populate the birtherverse, can never elevate this document to the standard of “evidence”.

  292. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 6:07 pm #

    raicha: The document is completely valueless. Discussion of kerning, the fonts, etc., while interesting to those of us who study the various convicted felons who populate the birtherverse, can never elevate this document to the standard of “evidence”.

    Some of the birthers that have not (yet) been convicted of felonies are interesting too… ;-)

  293. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 6:08 pm #

    Slartibartfast: He’s constructed a lair… in which is concealed a great big lyin’…

    Even a cub reporter has enough pride to know that’s the mane idea behind his species reasoning.

  294. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 17, 2011 at 6:13 pm #

    Majority Will: Even a cub reporter has enough pride to know that’s the mane idea behind his species reasoning.

    Mr. Smith is a wolf that hasn’t realized that sheep’s clothing isn’t a good idea in the Lion’s den…

  295. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 17, 2011 at 6:15 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: That’s the problem. “Ny” is the combination under discussion in the article. The pressman’s assertion is that “ny” ligatures were not part of the available type set. That seems to be the case in normal print (as opposed to large titles and art) that we’ve seen so far). The photo at the top of this article shows a ligature.

    Dr Conspiracy,

    With all due respect (that’s not sarcastic) , you don’t understand what you are talking about. I have worked on a few presses years ago. I don’t believe that you have.

    The pressman wasn’t looking specifically for an ‘ny’. He spotted what he claims is a problem and reported it. He was looking for anything. If he would have spotted something else, and not ‘ny’, he would have focused on that.

    Furthermore, Dr., you make it sound as letterpress is some barbaric and such primitive form of printing that it would only have one style font and that everything printed in would be the same on every document in that year in the county and within the same document.

    There are all sorts of fonts that appear to hangover the edges, what i mean is that on some blocks the raised lettering leans to the side, like the leaning tower. This is really not all that difficult to understand.

    Furthermore, the 1961 CPGH is blemished document and we can’t tell what it ink bleed and what is copy/fax distortion. The top 3 or so inches is even warped. Honestly, at that can be made out with somewhat of certainty is tight kerning which has been around forever.

    I give tangible evidence, from kenya at that, any you guys have all sorts of excused for the that. LOL.

    And furthermore, you appear to believe that if there is one sort if ‘ny’ then they should all be that way on every single document created in that time period. That is really crazy if you believe something like that.

    Furthermore, the 1961 CPGH is not a page of book. It’s a single document with different sized of font and design. Now you want to play the size of the font game. This is getting ridiculous and way out of your league (and that’s not meant sarcastically or as an insult)

    As I said from the get go this article is a disgrace and a shame (shame, at least on the pressman’s part).

    I would compare this article to a guy coming into give a lecture on ‘high fructose corn syrup’ to group of then 10 year old that are eating corn flakes and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Again, not an insult.

    I don’t have time for crazy stuff like this. I am the only putting of evidence (and tangible at that!)here. Neither the pressman nor the people posting here have put up any evidence.

    The pressman, and everyone here it seems now, wants the world to believe that poor old pressman if the 1950s and 60s wee just a bunch of bonehead laborers that could only neat little blocks together, with no imagination. What a crock of pure b.s.

    Maybe in the next blog report we can read a lesson on astrophysics via an anonymous email from 43 years experienced astrophysics professor that just happens to read about Obama’s birth certificate and that will say anything, even at 2:00 in the morning, to back his wild claims that nobody has any understanding of anyway that is reading it.

    Good bye.

  296. avatar
    misha March 17, 2011 at 6:25 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross): What did the guard’s uniform look like who gave it to you? What was his rank?

    I have posted this several times: the Kenya birth scenario is physically impossible:

    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2010/03/obama-born-in-kenya-no.html

  297. avatar
    gorefan March 17, 2011 at 6:27 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Do you understand written word?

    Do you understand anything about typography? The “ff” is a special example of a ligature.

    “These are the most common ligatures, ff, fl, fi, ffi and ffl. A ligature is not simply two letters arbitrarily glued together. The two letters are crafted into a single letter (technically speaking a single glyph). Certain letter combinations are simply crying out for ligatures.”

    http://ilovetypography.com/2007/09/09/decline-and-fall-of-the-ligature/

    So, you pick out a special example, out of the thousand of words in the document, what does that say about you and your methods?

  298. avatar
    James M March 17, 2011 at 6:39 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I have a great love for Africa.

    And you can prove that you traveled there?

    Even better, can you prove that Stanley Ann Dunham ever left the United States before 1961?

  299. avatar
    JoZeppy March 17, 2011 at 6:43 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I know about features and data on the 1961 CPGH bc because, unlike you and most others, I’ve done a tremendous amount of research to ascertain the authenticity of document. Why don’t you and other critics do the same?

    Because I see no reason to waste my time on an obvious forgery proffered by a convicted forger who was trying to make a fast buck? Why do you refuse to show any evidence that you were ever in Kenya, or even to address the countless number of times the question was raise here? How stupid do you think we are?

  300. avatar
    Daniel March 17, 2011 at 6:51 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Furthermore, Dr., you make it sound as letterpress is some barbaric and such primitive form of printing that it would only have one style font and that everything printed in would be the same on every document in that year in the county and within the same document.

    It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that two letters made of solid metal cannot occupy the same space at the same time….

  301. avatar
    Sef March 17, 2011 at 6:53 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: as long as I slip about the $30 US dollar in someone’s hands.

    So he’s also confessing to forging $30 bills. Nice!

  302. avatar
    Seizethecarp March 17, 2011 at 7:00 pm #

    Expelliarmus: He also wasn’t the chief administrator of the Coast Province Hospital in February 2009. So you are correct — he has never’ weighed in — because he did not sign any hospital certificate no matter how his name could be spelled.Any idiot knows that hospitals don’t issue certified birth certificates in Kenya anyway. Birth certificate are public records that are issued via District Offices for Civil Registration – see http://www.births.go.ke/birth_cert.htmHere’s what i want to see, Mr. Smith — I would like to see a cop of the visa that was issued to you to enter Kenya, and the page of your passport stamped with the entrance/exit information from Kenya. Why have you not ever produced a copy of that document? We all know your full name and date of birth,, and we know what you look like — so there’s no particular privacy concern that should prevent you from posting a photocopy of a now-expired visa.

    From your Kenya government link:

    “These services and forms are available at all registered health institutions, all births and deaths district registries including Nairobi City Hall registry and all assistant chiefs’ offices except in Nairobi province.”

    Your link appears to refute your assertion, Expelliarmus, that:

    “Any idiot knows that hospitals don’t issue certified birth certificates in Kenya anyway. Birth certificate are public records that are issued via District Offices for Civil Registration.”

    My understanding is that CPMG is clearly a “registered health institution” and would, thus, be able to issue certified birth certificates.

    Did I miss something?

    Thanks for the link.

    The signature of “Helton” might actually be a signature stamp, possibly ordered at the same time as the other stamp with the same “Helton” spelling. The Helton signature being a stamp would be consistent with the quick turn-around claimed by Lucas Smith and would not actually involve any participation by Dr. Maganga (who would, of course, deny any involvement in exposing a state secret possible being kept to blackmail Obama).

    Note that the three top national Kenyan police officers were mysteriously fired or demoted three days after Smith went public with the CPGH BC image.

  303. avatar
    gorefan March 17, 2011 at 7:05 pm #

    Seizethecarp: Note that the three top national Kenyan police officers were mysteriously fired or demoted three days after Smith went public with the CPGH BC image.

    Could that be because they were running a fake BC scam on gullible Americans?

  304. avatar
    Sean March 17, 2011 at 7:09 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Sean,

    I’ve found examples of overlapping kerning now on an official 1938 Colonial Report from the Kenya Colony and Protectorate.

    See page 61 of the report. You’ll find the word tariff’ one two occasions on the bottom segment of the page. Look at the first one. The top of the first f’ is CLEARLY ON TOP of the other f’. Furthermore, the top of the first f’ is CLEARLY LONGER than the second f’.

    Furthermore, and perhaps more interesting, please see page one, bottom half. Look at the word “Kingsway” and then further down at the word “any”. While the ay’ in Kingsway might appear somewhat normal typeset, the ny’ in “any” appears to be almost exactly in the same kerned manner on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc. The bottom of the ‘y’ is just as much under the n’ as it is on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc.

    Supposed expert pressman’ (yes, that is the terminology) was full horse droppings. Futhermore, the n’ appears to snuggled just as close to the ‘y’ as it is on the 1961 CPGH Obama bc.

    Lastly, I bought the report in January of 2010. I scanned it into my Patriot1980 scribd account back on April 21, 2010. I thought to check it now for kerning after I was alerted by my friend Bsteadman1 that just found a 1960 Kenya report with similar kerning. today I checked the 1960 report that he found online to view the font but, it’s in Google Books and that is much to blurry to make out conclusively. So then I remembered that I have the tangible 1938 report uploaded to my scribd. You can make it out very clearly if you download (as a PDF) the report from my scribd account and the enlarge it on your computer with Adobe Acrobat. It’s a clear as day.

    Link:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/30311179/Colonial-Report-Annual-Kenya-Colony-and-Protectorate-1938

    Read and weep.I can send you flowers and a get well card if you like.

    Close, but no cigar. Take another look at page 1. The kerning in question is all pixelated. What’s in question is caught between pixels. Do a higher res scan and come back.

    What do the two f’s have to do with anything? I don’t even know what your point is. One was little more word down than the other? What are you even saying?

    This blog really must be keeping you busy trying to bail out your mistakes. Get with the program. You should see if Konrad Kujau the forger of the Hitler Diaries will take you under his wing and show you the ropes. You could learn from his mistakes AND your mistakes.

  305. avatar
    misha March 17, 2011 at 7:09 pm #

    Seizethecarp: Note that the three top national Kenyan police officers were mysteriously fired or demoted three days after Smith went public with the CPGH BC image.

    Names, ranks and cite link(s). Other than WND or the Pest & Fail.

  306. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 17, 2011 at 7:15 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: And furthermore, you appear to believe that if there is one sort if ny’ then they should all be that way on every single document created in that time period. That is really crazy if you believe something like that.

    http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#straw

    No, what I am saying is that if we see an “ny” ligature on a fairly mundane document (hospital birth certificate form), then we should probably see some more “ny” ligatures on some other ordinary typesetting from the period. Certainly the examination of a few examples doesn’t settle the question, but the lack of “ny” ligatures in the ones examined add to the plausibility of the objection.

  307. avatar
    Keith March 17, 2011 at 7:24 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: This is not atypical. Sometimes we as Americans (and Europeans) forget to remember that not all cultures of the world care about dates.

    Quite true. But British Colonial Administrations DID. They were quite anal about that, the King wants to know who his subjects are so he can tax them properly (and vaccinate them and school them and induct them into the armed services, etc).

    That is not to say that every child born on some remote bush settlement necessarily had an ‘accurate’ date recorded, but officials would have estimated a date when the child came to their notice. There was no lack of officialdom, even if your fevered imagination is limited to Tarzan, The Phantom, or The African Queen.

  308. avatar
    Expelliarmus March 17, 2011 at 7:24 pm #

    Judge Mental: They then stamp the visa in your passport if your application is succesful. It’s as simple as that. If Lucas Smith visited Kenya he has a visit visa stamped in his US passport

    That’s one way – but a Visa can also be a separate piece of paper affixed to the passport (stapled or pasted to one of the back pages). Kenya seems to issue several different forms, both stamped in & pasted — with more than one pattern to the stamp, which may correlate to the location or form of issuance. That’s probably why it would be tricky for Mr. Smith to forge one – he’d have to be sure he had the right type for the time & place of issuance.

  309. avatar
    Mary Adams March 17, 2011 at 7:27 pm #

    Seizethecarp: Did I miss something?

    YES.

    The services and forms they are talking about are to REGISTER a birth NOT to get a birth certificate.

    Sheesh! Typical birther reading comprehension.

  310. avatar
    Keith March 17, 2011 at 7:32 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: See page 61 of the report. You’ll find the word tariff’ one two occasions on the bottom segment of the page. Look at the first one. The top of the first f’ is CLEARLY ON TOP of the other f’. Furthermore, the top of the first f’ is CLEARLY LONGER than the second f’.

    Sorry, you’ll have to do better.

    It has already been pointed out that the double ‘f’ is a STANDARD ligature and that ‘ny’ was NOT a standard ligature.

    A ligature is a glyph containing two characters.

    The two characters appear together often enough that it was worth while making a glyph block for them, so you didn’t have to manually typeset two character blocks for such a common occurrence. It allowed for kerning to make the characters more attractive too.

    How do you account for the deformed child described in your document growing up to be a 6 foot tall man of athletic build?

  311. avatar
    Expelliarmus March 17, 2011 at 7:36 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: it. It is entirely possible that Barack Obama Sr. did not have a full date of birth. It is not unusual for Africans of that era to use only a year of birth.

    Yes, but Barack Obama Sr. would have had to provide full date of birth when applied to attend college in the US and to get his student visa. Not being certain of the exact date is fairly common – in fact, some people aren’t even sure of the year of birth — but when that happens the person will settle on an arbitrary date to use for all official documents and be consistent about that date. So whether it was an actual known date, or the date he had settled upon whenever he first needed to provide a date to receive official documentation — there would have been information to include on official forms.

  312. avatar
    Expelliarmus March 17, 2011 at 7:41 pm #

    Slartibartfast: While laws must have been violated to perform the transplant we can’t know for certain that Mr. Lucas violated laws (the organ removal itself could have been illicit and there is no other part that Mr. Lucas would have been required to participate in) – I think that it is important to remember that Mr. Lucas is the VICTIM in this scenario.

    He’s the “victim” in the scenario where he pays $5000 to acquire the fake birth certificate, too…. though I don’t believe for a minute that either event happened.

  313. avatar
    Expelliarmus March 17, 2011 at 8:10 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: See page 61 of the report. You’ll find the word tariff’ one two occasions on the bottom segment of the page. Look at the first one. The top of the first f’ is CLEARLY ON TOP of the other f’. Furthermore, the top of the first f’ is CLEARLY LONGER than the second f’.

    I don’t know what Mr. Smith has been smoking, but the two f’s on page 61 of his document are identical to one another. No kerning effect, though there does appear to be some ink bleed on the bold faced title (to be expected given the porous quality of the paper it is printed on)

  314. avatar
    Seizethecarp March 17, 2011 at 8:11 pm #

    misha: Names, ranks and cite link(s). Other than WND or the Pest & Fail.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8244594.stm

    8 September 2009

    “The government in Kenya has replaced almost all of the country’s most senior police officers in what analysts say could be the start of major reform.”

    “The changes go to the top – ex-police commissioner Maj Gen Hussein Ali has been moved to the Post Office.”

    Note that the BBC is not sure why it happened. BBC provided only speculation.

    This was just after the following was reported worldwide:

    http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/naranja-news/orlys-day-in-court/

    “A few weeks ago, a YouTube video surfaced showing what was purported to be Barack Obama’s original birth certificate, obtained in Mombasa, Kenya (this is different from the other Kenyan birth certificate that got so much press last month for being a likely hoax). Just a few days ago, a man named Lucas Smith came forward with an image of that certificate. Taitz got him to submit a declaration into the court’s record on Sept. 3 stating how he came to obtain the certificate. She flew him out, picked him up from the airport this morning and took him to the courthouse — where he would, in her expectation, testify at today’s hearing and blow open this whole usurper-president thing.”

  315. avatar
    obsolete March 17, 2011 at 8:12 pm #

    It’s ridiculous that we are even entertaining discussion with a convicted forger who claims to have found a world-shaking, extraordinary document.
    Did I mention he was a convicted forger?

  316. avatar
    JoZeppy March 17, 2011 at 8:15 pm #

    Expelliarmus: He’s the “victim” in the scenario where he pays $5000 to acquire the fake birth certificate, too…. though I don’t believe for a minute that either event happened.

    what, you don’t take the word of someone, who in addition to being a convicted forger, has confessed in this thread alone to being a child molester, violated the FCPA, violated federal law against the sale of organs with such disregard as to say, “Aside from federal laws, their is nothing morally wrong about selling a kidney.” I mean, who wouldn’t trust him?

  317. avatar
    obsolete March 17, 2011 at 8:16 pm #

    OK, Seizethecarp, now show that Lucas Smith (convicted forger) was in Kenya sometime before this happened. Or that the “country’s most senior police officers” are connected somehow to hospital security guards.
    Oh, never mind.
    The story and BC are pure crap, and anyone who believes a convicted forger acquired this world-changing document is stupid and deserves to be fleeced.

  318. avatar
    Seizethecarp March 17, 2011 at 8:25 pm #

    Mary Adams: YES.The services and forms they are talking about are to REGISTER a birth NOT to get a birth certificate.Sheesh! Typical birther reading comprehension.

    True, but the fact remains that unlike some US hospitals which do issue souvenir BCs and cannot issue “official” state certified BC’s, CPGH is an official government hospital and if it can issue new BCs for babies born within 6 months, perhaps it can issue certified copies of older BCs. I don’t see where it says CPGH could NOT issue a certified copy. Please post that if you found it.

  319. avatar
    misha March 17, 2011 at 8:28 pm #

    Seizethecarp: Note that the BBC is not sure why it happened. BBC provided only speculation.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8244594.stm

    “Of all the Kenyan institutions needing reform, the police have been at the top of the list.

    In the wave of reflection that followed the rioting over the disputed elections, the police were blamed for killing hundreds.

    Human rights groups have consistently argued that there can be no justice in Kenya without complete reform of the police service.

    Tuesday’s announcement seems to answer that call. The most significant change is the removal of Gen Ali.

    Human rights and security analysts say he was the major obstacle to reform.”

  320. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 8:29 pm #

    JoZeppy: what, you don’t take the word of someone, who in addition to being a convicted forger, has confessed in this thread alone to being a child molester, violated the FCPA, violated federal law against the sale of organs with such disregard as to say, “Aside from federal laws, their is nothing morally wrong about selling a kidney.”I mean, who wouldn’t trust him?

    Add statutory rape, illegal possession of firearms, bribing local law enforcement and a high probability of numerous and repeated probation violations.

  321. avatar
    Expelliarmus March 17, 2011 at 8:31 pm #

    Here’s some info online about ligatures, specifically about the common f ligatures:
    http://www.fonts.com/aboutfonts/articles/fyti/ligaturespartone.htm

    And:

    A ligature is a combination of characters that is written as a glyph, which is written as though it is a single character. Most often, ligatures are made up of pairs of letters. …. The descriptions below are guidelines about each type of ligature that might be used.

    Standard Only: The standard set of ligatures varies by language, but it contains the ligatures that most typographers and font designers agree are appropriate for that language. For example, in English, the common ligatures are related to the letter “f” and are seen in the phrase “five spiffy flowers.”

    See: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/opentype-options-in-the-font-dialog-box-HA101809106.aspx#_Toc249949575

    (Smith would have to demonstrate a common “ny” ligature in use prior to 1961 with the typeset used on the form in question to prove his claim, not point to the appearance of a double f set in a book printed in a different type set).

  322. avatar
    misha March 17, 2011 at 8:37 pm #

    Seizethecarp: where he would, in her expectation, testify at today’s hearing and blow open this whole usurper-president thing.”

    http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/naranja-news/orlys-day-in-court/

    “Midway through the hour-and-change hearing, it became clear that in Taitz’s mind, today was going to be a day straight out of a Dean Koontz-Dan Brown mash-up novel. It didn’t quite turn out that way.

    Taitz had given zero warning to the defense that she would be attempting to call a witness. Taitz begged with him to overlook that fact.

    Taitz had originally worked with attorney Gary Kreep in Wiley Drake’s lawsuit against Obama”

    >Kreep is a Holocaust denier.

  323. avatar
    Woofie March 17, 2011 at 8:41 pm #

    The following were my comments ( and Sharon Rondeau’s) in reply to an article about Lucas on the Post and Email found :

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2010/09/05/exclusive-lucas-daniel-smith-speaks-with-the-post-email/

    I hope this will give more info to people about Mr Smith’s claims

    woofie says:
    Saturday, September 18, 2010 at 2:23 AM

    THE ONLY CERTIFIED PICTURES of LUCAS SMITH IN AFRICA on the INTERNET
    SEE IT HERE !!! SEE IT NOW !!!!

    LINK HERE:

    http://theautonomist.com/atnmst/bo_bc_files/obamma_bc_ebay6_bids.html

    >>>>>>>>>
    The 2 photos in Africa shows Smith standing without his shirt (its hot) in front of an African ? slum ( if you click on the link that says” larger pictures ” you can still see the posted photos)

    In the auction Smith says the following:

    >>>>>>>>>>>

    Added two other photos of Lucas. These two photos are only listed to show the background neighborhood in Africa, which will be of relevance when documenting our story (explain later). These two photos are not for autograph.

    >>>>>>>

    ALSO NOTICE the auction is titled:

    Autographed photo of Smith and Andylenny abroad

    although Smith doesn’t say (and never has said) that the pictures of him and Andylenny are in an Airport in Africa …he just says the picture is of them abroad

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    NOW I know I am beating a dead horse here, but on the off chance that P&E writer Sharon Rondeau will do the right thing and contact Mr Smith asking him to explain these things or the chance that another inteviewer will read this and educate himself or herself before believing everything that Smith says, I will try to spell out some common sense problems with Smith’s tale.

    One…. Smith first posted these picture of himself in Africa in July of ’09.
    No one can verify that the pictures are of Africa and not of the Dominican Republic (where Smith has spent a good deal of his time).

    Two…… Smith has never put another picture on the internet of himself in Africa even though he says he now says he has a plethora of documentation for his travels.
    A decent journalist would ask why he can put up some pictures and not others that clearly show him in Africa.

    A decent journalist would ask for some verification of that plethora of documents ( isn’t that what is being asked of Barrack Obama?)

    Three…… the timeline questions:
    Smith says the following:

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    “This spring I traveled through Kenya and its capital Nairobi. I was overwhelmed by the iconicized’ face of U.S. President Barack Obama that displays itself throughout the country. I had lunch at a small eatery and noticed that the club sandwich with fried plantains was now known as Obama’s Plate of the Day,’” the seller wrote on the initial auction page. “As an American I was bombarded with questions in English (English is national language of Kenya) on my feelings and opinions of a Kenyan governing the United States of America. The first several times I responded in saying that not enough time had elapsed since Barack Obama’s appointment as president of the U.S.A., and that I’d have to hold my official opinion until at least January 2010, a year in office might be sufficient for me to judge his ability to govern the U.S.A.

    “Naturally I thought that by ‘Kenyan’ they were referring to Barack Obama’s blood, being that his father Barack Obama Sr. was a native of Kenya. After a day and a half of my being in Nairobi I learned that they were literally referring to President Barack Obama Jr. as being born in Kenya, a native of Kenya.”

    >>>>>>>>>

    This sounds as if his experiences that spring were before he procured the document as that experience led him to question where Obama was born. So which Spring is it? ’09 or ’08.

    Smith does not talk about 2 trips to Africa (Spring and Winter)

    Clearly because the document says he got it in February of ’09 he has had to change his story …and say that he went in the winter.
    If I am wrong Mr Smith……

    Please explain.

    People and especially journalists need to use their brains rather than simply trust the words of a man who has the kind of past that Smith has.
    Smith needs to provide some reasonable explanations (but he wont)

    ——————–

    Mrs. Rondeau replies: I have “done the right thing” and asked Lucas Smith for proof of travel. None has been forthcoming, or we would have reported it. Nowhere in The Post & Email’s article did we state that Mr. Smith’s story is true. We reported on his letter campaign to Congress, which was verifiable, and Smith’s own research which he submitted to us.

    woofie says:

    Saturday, September 18, 2010 at 4:39 PM

    Im happy to hear that you have asked Mr Smith for some evidence of his travels. I am certain however that you will never receive any reasonable validation of his claims.
    While the story of Mr Smith sending his document and his story to all Congressmen and women is somewhat interesting, without the most basic back up material Mr Smith’s story is just that…. a story. Congress will no doubt ignore it as the work of a crank
    Look at what Mr Smith has put on line to back up his claims that he mailed his document to each and every Senator etc. He scanned thousands of pages. This is very odd behavior from someone who cant show anyone a picture of himself in what is unquestionably Africa.

    If you ever do question Mr Smith again please ask him where his first video (in which he shows the Kenyan BC)was taken. Again he hasn’t said.

    woofie says:

    Monday, September 13, 2010 at 3:58 AM

    I am not the first one to ask a question without an answer but it seems to me the people at P&E would do well to dig a bit deeper and ask Mr Smith a few more pertinent questions.

    If not maybe in the next “interview” of the daring Mr Smith the interviewers will do their homework and will not be willing to wait till hell freezes over to get an answer or two.
    Question:

    In one of Mr Smith’ first ebay auctions (I think the auction was in earlyJuly of ’09) he stated the following:

    “This spring I traveled through Kenya and its capital Nairobi. I was overwhelmed by the iconicized’ face of U.S. President Barack Obama that displays itself throughout the country. I had lunch at a small eatery and noticed that the club sandwich with fried plantains was now known as Obama’s Plate of the Day,” (*see footnote)
    I assume this can be found in other places on the internet but I found it in a
    WND article:

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=102854

    This makes me wonder about the timeline .
    Did Smith travel twice to Kenya ?

    Once in the winter (February ’09) and then again in the spring of ’09 ? or was it the spring of ’08?

    If it was the Spring of ’09 why did Smith return to Kenya after daringly procuring this document ? was he afraid on the second trip?

    Perhaps Mr Smith has spoken about this second trip and I missed it…or perhaps he simply mis-spoke.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Also in an early auction Mr Smith stated the following:

    “I want to make clear that this whole endeavor to obtain information on O’s birth was a three man job (more accurately 2 men and 1 lady). Andylenny. Smith. Dawnella Wilson. Smith and Andylenny are (due) the credit for actually getting their hands on the proof. Dawnella Wilson is due credit for financing the whole undertaking. The photo in this listing is up for auction. On the left is Smith and on the right is Andylenny. This photo will be signed by Smith, as Smith. This will be the only autographed photo put up for auction. One auction, one winning bidder, one photo. No more,”

    this can also be found in a WND article:

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=102754

    (If anyone can point us to some screen shots of these auctions …I think there were 6 of them , it could help clarify some other important points)

    I believe the only verified picture of Mr Smith in Kenya which has appeared on the internet can be found in one of those auctions (Mr Smith was standing in front of a slum). Mr Smith has stated that this WAS Kenya twice now, once in the auction and once recently on Free Republic (thread sadly removed).

    I find this surprising as Mr Smith states here on P&E that he has a “plethora” of evidence.
    As to Andy Lenny and Dawnella Wilson I don’t think Mr Smith has mentioned them since.
    If I am wrong ,can someone point me to it ?

    I would love to hear more about these 2 people…I believe Mr Lenny is a native of Kenya…. (I hope he is safe )

    Mr Smith posted a picture of the 2 of them together with a very cute child in what I assume is an airport in Kenya. (Mr Smith has yet to establish that however)
    At one point it would have been possible to purchase the picture on ebay.

    Just askin

    Footnote: Mr Smith has uncovered evidence while using Google that plantains do indeed grow in Kenya or perhaps nearby.

  324. avatar
    kimba March 17, 2011 at 8:43 pm #

    Are Lucas and his two kidneys gone?

  325. avatar
    Mary Adams March 17, 2011 at 8:55 pm #

    Seizethecarp: True, but the fact remains that unlike some US hospitals which do issue souvenir BCs and cannot issue “official” state certified BC’s, CPGH is an official government hospital and if it can issue new BCs for babies born within 6 months, perhaps it can issue certified copies of older BCs.I don’t see where it says CPGH could NOT issue a certified copy.Please post that if you found it.

    Holy crap! When are you birthers going to learn to read and comprehend?

    ” Notification of all current birth (registrations done immediately or within six (6) months after date of birth) occurring in Kenya

    Persons who qualify for this service
    Parents/guardians of a newly born baby
    Rescue centers taking charge of newly born abandoned babies

    Requirements for Notification of a current birth
    Name of the newly born baby (optional)
    Date and place of birth
    Sex of the child
    Type of birth (single/multiple)
    Nature of birth (alive/dead)
    Name, age and marital status, previous births to, residential area and district of mother
    Name of father (for married couples)
    Signature of the applicant
    Register of birth form B1 duly completed or Register of birth form A1 and notification of birth form all duly completed “

    Form B1 is a shorter version of what hospitals in the US fill out and send to vital statistics. It has a top portion called “acknowledgement of birth notification” that is given to the person registering the birth that says:

    “Note.-To obtain a birth certificate, present this notification to the District Registrar of Births where this birth occurred.”

    On the FAQs page:

    What documents do you need to apply for a birth certificate?

    *
    You need to attach an acknowledged of birth notification on your application.

    What do you require to apply for a birth certificate?

    * Kshs.50 if there are no amendments on records.
    * Maximum of kshs.130 if there are amendments.

    The forms to REGISTER the births are available at hospitals and the people there can provide the service of sending it to the District Registrar and giving the parent the acknowledgment which the parent must attach to the application and take to the District Registrar along with the appropriate fee.

    Get it?

  326. avatar
    kimba March 17, 2011 at 8:57 pm #

    I think Doc made a big mistake posting this esoteric printing / kerning essay. It has given Lucas Smith a shiny object to make excuses to confuse the issue and distract from the glaring technical and factual mistakes on the POSFKNBC. The FKBC was almost dead and Lucas Smith almost completely discredited, but Doc’s post has resurrected it and Lucas Smith as a viable birther player.His explanations for his forgery will satisfy the birthers who want to believe. We have also learned that in addition to being a forger, Lucas Smith admits to passing bad checks and having sex with a minor. Tell me why we’re talking to this guy like he might have a legitimate explanation for his forged document.

  327. avatar
    misha March 17, 2011 at 9:12 pm #

    kimba: Lucas Smith admits to…having sex with a minor.

    I read it. Yuck.

  328. avatar
    gorefan March 17, 2011 at 9:25 pm #

    Seizethecarp: This was just after the following was reported worldwide:
    http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/naranja-news/orlys-day-in-court/
    “A few weeks ago, a YouTube video surfaced showing what was purported to be Barack Obama’s original birth certificate

    You should click on the youtube link in the article – it takes you to WND where they show a picture of a real 1961-era BC. It looks nothing like the Lucas BC. Weird Huh.

  329. avatar
    Seizethecarp March 17, 2011 at 9:51 pm #

    gorefan: You should click on the youtube link in the article – it takes you to WND where they show a picture of a real 1961-era BC. It looks nothing like the Lucas BC. Weird Huh.

    The 1964 non-colonial, post-independence certification shown by WND was falsely claimed by WND to debunk Smith’s pre-independence BC, as Smith has already explained on this thread.

  330. avatar
    Scientist March 17, 2011 at 10:18 pm #

    Seizerthecarp-Too much effort has been focused on the document rather than the event it purports to describe. No one travels from Hawaii to Kenya to have a baby. Not a siingle person has done so in recorded history. A document purporting to show a nonsensical event is by definitiion phony. The fact that someone writes a book describing flying pigs does not mean you need to look up when you hanker for a BLT.

  331. avatar
    misha March 17, 2011 at 10:38 pm #

    Scientist: No one travels from Hawaii to Kenya to have a baby.

    Which is what I have been saying all along. A white woman, in her third trimester, is not going to travel 11K miles for one week, to primitive conditions. Cue “two citizen parents” in 3,2,1…

  332. avatar
    Majority Will March 17, 2011 at 10:41 pm #

    Scientist:
    Seizerthecarp-Too much effort has been focused on the document rather than the event it purports to describe.No one travels from Hawaii to Kenya to have a baby.Not a siingle person has done so in recorded history.A document purporting to show a nonsensical event is by definitiion phony.The fact that someone writes a book describing flying pigs does not mean you need to look up when you hanker for a BLT.

    Absolutely right. Well put.

    But it’s also not a bad idea to remind everyone out how incompetent, phony and unethical a convicted forger desperate for money can be.

  333. avatar
    Sean March 17, 2011 at 11:30 pm #

    misha: Which is what I have been saying all along. A white woman, in her third trimester, is not going to travel 11K miles for one week, to primitive conditions. Cue “two citizen parents” in 3,2,1…

    I recently found out someone did some research on Obama’s Father. He took a summer semester that ended on Aug 4, 1961, Obama’s date of birth. This would mean Obama’s Mother would have to make that trip alone. A very pregnant 17 year-old white woman traveling alone to a third world country to give birth.

    Believable.

  334. avatar
    obsolete March 17, 2011 at 11:59 pm #

    Sean: I recently found out someone did some research on Obama’s Father. He took a summer semester that ended on Aug 4, 1961, Obama’s date of birth. This would mean Obama’s Mother would have to make that trip alone.

    Could you post more info Sean? Sounds very interesting.

  335. avatar
    Reality Check March 18, 2011 at 12:42 am #

    I have a post on my blog about this: http://rcradioshow.blogspot.com/2011/03/birthers-keep-digging-and-finding-more.html

  336. avatar
    Mik Taerg March 18, 2011 at 4:46 am #

    another factual element about the Smith fake.

    Remeber Heltan Maganaga, The Chief administrator who wasn’t Chief Administrator on the day stamped on Lucas’ FKBC and whose name is spelled Helton both on the stamp and in signature ?

    Well, there is now an OFFICIAL name for Dr.Maganga. And it’s Heltan.

    This is Kenya’s official
    MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS RETENTION REGISTER, 2010
    http://medicalboard.co.ke/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=35

    The Medical Practitioners and Dentists Board is a statutory authority established under Cap 253 Laws of Kenya to regulate the practice of medicine and dentistry in the country………………

    ……………………….

    Medical Practitioners & Dentists Board Functions ….
    ……

    REGISTRATION AND LICENCING

    1.To direct and supervise the compilation and maintenance of a register and all records required to be kept under sections 6,13,14,15 of the Act.
    2.To regulate private practice.
    3.To such things as are incidental to the performance of all or any of the foregoing functions.

    from the linked register the relevant information is:

    MAGANGA, HELTAN MNJAMA P. O. BOX 41009 MOMBASA 80100 MBChB(Nbi)1993 M.Med(Nbi)2001 GENERAL SURGERY

    Cap. 253 is a government ACT as explained here
    http://www.kenyalaw.org/kenyalaw/klr_app/view_content.php?ContentHistoryID=2292

    And it is signed by the official Registrar who is, by LAW, the Director of Medical Services

    Dr. Francis M. Kimani
    Director of Medical Services
    Ministry of Medical Services
    (also found here:http://www.statehousekenya.go.ke/government/medical_services.htm)

    The OFFICIAL name from the OFFICIAL register signed by the OFFICIAl registrar in accordance to the LAW of KENYA

    THE MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS AND DENTISTS ACT

    (Cap. 253)

    This is no longer a name possibly misspelled by some newspaper or blog, this is how the name is written in the gvt official register.

  337. avatar
    The Magic M March 18, 2011 at 6:52 am #

    > He took a summer semester that ended on Aug 4, 1961, Obama’s date of birth. This would mean Obama’s Mother would have to make that trip alone.

    With all respect, I think that is the same logical fallacy the birthers use when talking about the courses Stanley Anne took.
    Just because you’re enrolled in a course doesn’t mean you’re attending every day until the end.
    When I had no exams to write, I could easily drop off two or three weeks before the last day of the semester (given that the last week or two weeks were reserved for exams anyway).

  338. avatar
    Sean March 18, 2011 at 7:06 am #

    Anyone know why someone would buy an autographed photo of Lucas Smith like the one he had for sale on Ebay?

  339. avatar
    Expelliarmus March 18, 2011 at 7:08 am #

    Scheduling is generally much tighter for a summer session — no such thing as 2-week exam period at the end of a summer session, much less 3 weeks.

    Obviously there might have been some adjustments in calendaring over the years, but you can see the 2011 schedule here:
    http://www.hawaii.edu/academics/calendar/

    You will note that there are two summer sessions, one running from May 23-July 1, the other from July 5- August 12 (5 weeks). Current printed academic calendars don’t show any period reserved for exams during the summer session. Obviously the students have exams, but it is most likely that they simply take the exams on the last day the class meets. This is possible because it is typical for summer classes to meet for longer sessions in order to cover more material — so the class may already be scheduled to cover a 2-3 hour time block, without the need to schedule a different day or time for an exam.

  340. avatar
    Sean March 18, 2011 at 7:08 am #

    The Magic M:
    > He took a summer semester that ended on Aug 4, 1961, Obama’s date of birth. This would mean Obama’s Mother would have to make that trip alone.

    With all respect, I think that is the same logical fallacy the birthers use when talking about the courses Stanley Anne took.
    Just because you’re enrolled in a course doesn’t mean you’re attending every day until the end.
    When I had no exams to write, I could easily drop off two or three weeks before the last day of the semester (given that the last week or two weeks were reserved for exams anyway).

    Would Barack Obama Sr miss the day of the final?

  341. avatar
    Majority Will March 18, 2011 at 8:55 am #

    Sean:
    Anyone know why someone would buy an autographed photo of Lucas Smith like the one he had for sale on Ebay?

    Multi-generational inbreeding, chromosomal damage, emotional abuse and homemade alcohol poisoning?

  342. avatar
    Reality Check March 18, 2011 at 9:00 am #

    The Magic M: With all respect, I think that is the same logical fallacy the birthers use when talking about the courses Stanley Anne took.
    Just because you’re enrolled in a course doesn’t mean you’re attending every day until the end.
    When I had no exams to write, I could easily drop off two or three weeks before the last day of the semester (given that the last week or two weeks were reserved for exams anyway).

    The difference with Stanley is that her courses were clearly listed as “extension and correspondence courses” for the fall ’61 quarter at Washington. http://www.thepostemail.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/SAD-extension-courses.jpg

    This makes perfect sense. Stanley, the brand new mother, took correspondence courses for several quarters at UW before attending on campus. It would be silly to think that Obama signed up for summer term at UH then took his very pregnant wife on an 11,000 mile journey to Kenya all while taken a correspondence class from there or missing probably over half of the term if he was an on campus student. Does anyone wish to guess how slow and unreliable mail from Kenya to Hawaii was in 1961?

  343. avatar
    Daniel March 18, 2011 at 11:21 am #

    Sean:
    Anyone know why someone would buy an autographed photo of Lucas Smith like the one he had for sale on Ebay?

    A few State Attorneys General might like to have one on file….

  344. avatar
    Mike March 18, 2011 at 11:42 am #

    Lucas— Overlapped kerning dates back to at least the 1700s and most likely much earlier:

    http://www.dma.ufg.ac.at/app/link/Grundlagen:DTP/module/13712

  345. avatar
    Black Lion March 18, 2011 at 12:23 pm #

    More hilarity by the P&E…

    James G. Borden says:
    Thursday, March 17, 2011 at 11:38 PM
    A true copy of Barack Hussein Obama II Certificate of Birth has been exposed and it proves that Obama was born in Kenya, Africa.
    James G. Borden
    Newsletter Editor
    AMERICAN PATRIOTS’ MOVEMENT OF AMERICA
    National Headquarters
    Hilo, Hawaii 96720

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/03/17/final-hawaii-petition-letter-sent/

  346. avatar
    The Magic M March 18, 2011 at 12:47 pm #

    > A true copy of Barack Hussein Obama II Certificate of Birth has been exposed

    Yeah, again without a link or further explanation, as usual. Or are they still quoting the Lucas Kenyan BC?

  347. avatar
    Sean March 18, 2011 at 1:46 pm #

    Black Lion:
    More hilarity by the P&E…

    James G. Borden says:
    Thursday, March 17, 2011 at 11:38 PM
    A true copy of Barack Hussein Obama II Certificate of Birth has been exposed and it proves that Obama was born in Kenya, Africa.
    James G. Borden
    Newsletter Editor
    AMERICAN PATRIOTS’ MOVEMENT OF AMERICA
    National Headquarters
    Hilo, Hawaii 96720

    http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/03/17/final-hawaii-petition-letter-sent/

    Hey, they even got Tim Adams in there. I’m impressed!

  348. avatar
    G March 18, 2011 at 2:31 pm #

    Black Lion: More hilarity by the P&E…James G. Borden says:Thursday, March 17, 2011 at 11:38 PMA true copy of Barack Hussein Obama II Certificate of Birth has been exposed and it proves that Obama was born in Kenya, Africa.James G. BordenNewsletter EditorAMERICAN PATRIOTS’ MOVEMENT OF AMERICANational HeadquartersHilo, Hawaii 96720http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/03/17/final-hawaii-petition-letter-sent/

    Yeah, the comments over there are even funnier and more delusional.

    At first there is a bunch of the usual “harrah” going on by the birtheristani, as if their ability to write another crazy letter full of bunk and mail it to a government official is really any different from what they’ve been wasting their time doing endlessly for the past two years.

    How can they not even have an inkling that the result is most likely to end just like all their previous attempts? The definition of insanity, I tell ya.

    Then the comments move to posting about ancestry.com links to very distant Irish and other american ancestors of Obama’s, through his mother’s side and leading them to their next “great white hope” of discovery – mistakingly thinking these extremely distant relations will allow them to use those people to get Obama’s mythical “long form” BC from HI.

    They even cite the HI law for record requests as their basis of this hope:

    “Vital records disclosure laws protect all birth, death, marriage and divorce records held by the department and all amendments, changes, supporting records, and requests related to vital records.” (HRS §338-18).

    “A certified copy of a vital record (birth, death, marriage, or divorce certificate) is issued only to an applicant who has a direct and tangible interest in the record. The following persons are considered to have such an interest:

    * the registrant (the person whom the record is concerned with);
    * the registrant’s spouse;
    * the registrant’s parent(s);
    * a descendant of the registrant (e.g., a child or grandchild);
    * a person having a common ancestor with the registrant (e.g., a sibling, grandparent, aunt/uncle, or cousin);

    * a legal guardian of the registrant;
    * a person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;
    * a personal representative of the registrant’s estate;
    * a person whose right to obtain a copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;
    * adoptive parents who have filed a petition for adoption and need to determine the death of one or more of the prospective adopted child’s natural or legal parents;
    * a person who needs to determine the marital status of a former spouse in order to determine the payment of alimony;
    * a person who needs to determine the death of a nonrelated co-owner of property purchased under a joint tenancy agreement; and
    * a person who needs a death certificate for the determination of payments under a credit insurance policy.”

    They seem to fail to understand that they’re trying to apply the definition of a “relative” with “direct and tangible interest” way, way, way, way, WAY beyond any reasonable connection to what that law means.

    So, now their scrambling to contact “distant 3rd cousins”, etc.. to request his records from HI on their behalf … an endeavor of tilting at windmills that is destined to be the next birther EPIC FAIL entertainment on the horizon.

    Keep your popcorn handy.

  349. avatar
    G March 18, 2011 at 2:41 pm #

    Black Lion: More hilarity by the P&E…James G. Borden says:Thursday, March 17, 2011 at 11:38 PMA true copy of Barack Hussein Obama II Certificate of Birth has been exposed and it proves that Obama was born in Kenya, Africa.James G. BordenNewsletter EditorAMERICAN PATRIOTS’ MOVEMENT OF AMERICANational HeadquartersHilo, Hawaii 96720http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/03/17/final-hawaii-petition-letter-sent/

    More craziness from the comments there…

    Obama Researcher says:
    Thursday, March 17, 2011 at 4:52 PM
    Also you can add that Obama himself admits he was born a British subject to the British Nationality Act of 1948. How can he be born a British subject citizen and also be an American NBC. Would the Founding Fathers of our country allow a British born citizen be President after fighting an 8 year war of independence throwing off British rule? if so where is that stated in the Constitution.

    Where in the Constitution does it say that the Constitution shall be over ruled by Sharia Law. I thought the Constitution was the Law of the Land. The top document of law frow which all other laws derive their legal powers.

    *blink* *blink* *HUH???*

    Wow, we know birthers are dumb and don’t seem to understand basic facts of law or how the US Constitution works nor anything about how simple the two conditions for citizenship are in our country (born or naturalized…that’s it, birthers, that’s simply it…)

    But where does this crazy wad get Sharia Law from British Citizenship at all??? It is such a completely illogical leap of connecting absolutely unrelated dots that it is a notable stretch of stupid, even by extreme Birther standards…

    I really think these mouth breathers just casually throw around their RW bogeyman terms completely interchageably and with no actual care nor understanding of what any of those words mean. All they require is that somehow the term seems “scary” or “furrin” to them and therefore perfect to throw in their latest word-salad insult.

    SERIOUSLY! These hate/fear based tools have the limited mentality of a first grader yelling “poopie head” or “cooties” on the playground. It must be extremely difficult to go through life so utterly stunted in their emotional maturity.

  350. avatar
    G March 18, 2011 at 2:53 pm #

    Black Lion: More hilarity by the P&E…James G. Borden says:Thursday, March 17, 2011 at 11:38 PMA true copy of Barack Hussein Obama II Certificate of Birth has been exposed and it proves that Obama was born in Kenya, Africa.James G. BordenNewsletter EditorAMERICAN PATRIOTS’ MOVEMENT OF AMERICANational HeadquartersHilo, Hawaii 96720http://www.thepostemail.com/2011/03/17/final-hawaii-petition-letter-sent/

    Well, just when I thought my laughter for the day on this one was done, I got down to this comment and started laughing all over again:

    California Birther/Dualer/Doubter says:
    Thursday, March 17, 2011 at 4:34 PM
    Bam! That is one heckuva petition — one that hits on all the pertinent points. Great job! I just signed the petition. That was 10 bucks well spent. The officials will probably turn up their noses at it, but we can always hope that the well-researched and irrefutable facts will be enough to make them squirm in their seats and wonder whether the gig is up.

    At first I’m wondering what CBDD is talking about, as the whole article was about those undisclosed number of signatures on a petition that Sharon had ALREADY mailed off. So I’m trying to figure out how this guy thinks he can sign on to a petition that’s already been mailed out before he found out about it and furthermore, why he would waste $10 on such a “past-tense” effort anyways.

    Then I realized that at the top of the P&E on the right-hand side are not ONE but TWO stand out areas inviting the reader to “Sign the HI Petition! (both in bold red letters and then also in the Tab link just below it too).

    Those links both take you to this part of their site:

    http://www.thepostemail.com/petition-hawaii-govt/

    Of course, such “signatures” require a PAYPAL donation of $10… Gotta keep those gullible birther’s properly fleeced!

    So, what does one get for their $10 and their signature:

    Here you can sign on to the Petition to the Hawai’i Government, demanding the release of Obama’s Vital Records.

    This petition will be sent to Hawaii Governor Linga Lingle (R), to the HI Lt. Gov. James Aiona (R), to the HI Director of the Department of Health, Dr. Chiyome Fukino (R); and to each member of the HI State legislature: in all, more than 90 governmental officials.

    For every signature, an individual letter of petition will be sent in the name of the one signing to each of the 90+ Hawaii Government officials. The cost is $10 USD to send the 90+ letters in your name; a savings to you of more than $35 in postage.

    LMAO! Only in Birtherland can you waste $10 to have your name signed to a useless petition full of crazy talk that will be mailed to the previous administration’s officials, who no longer are in office nor would have any responsibilities to address that petition!

  351. avatar
    G March 18, 2011 at 3:04 pm #

    G: LMAO! Only in Birtherland can you waste $10 to have your name signed to a useless petition full of crazy talk that will be mailed to the previous administration’s officials, who no longer are in office nor would have any responsibilities to address that petition!

    Sorry, I was laughing so hard I accidentally hit SEND before adding the final hilarious kicker to this story…

    At the BOTTOM of that petition page, the P&E explains that:

    Regarding the Time Frame for Mailing your petition:

    When 1,000 signatures are gathered, the names and addresses of the signers will be sent to the printer, who will print and mail the more than 90,000 petitions in a timely fashion (within 2 weeks).

    In the eventuality of a great number of signers (in excess of 10,000), letters will be mailed in bundles of 10 packages of 1,000 letters, at a time; to facilitate the printing and mailing processes of the more than 900,000 petitions.

    So to recap, gullible doofus CBDD from above gets SO excited reading about a letter that Sharon has already mailed to Abercrombie that he rushes off and PAYS $10 to sign on to another petition on their site, which:

    1. Is not connected to the worthless one they just already mailed to Abercrombie…(although from his comment, it is fairly evident he somehow thinks it is)

    2. Is described as intending to be mailed out to a bunch of former officials no longer involved in those offices of state business

    3. Won’t be mailed out UNTIL at least 999 other gullible fools are stupid enough to make the same mistake!!!!

    Yet he get’s to pay them his $10 PAYPAL donation now….

    HILAROUS!

  352. avatar
    Black Lion March 18, 2011 at 3:19 pm #

    G, great summary of the epic fail which is the Post and EFail…The birthers get fleeced every day and they come back for more. Their Obama derangement is so serious that they prefer to believe cranks over experts, unnamed officials over real ones, Kenyan politicans over HI politicans, and insane bloggers over real news reports. Now we see why WND and other sites are continuing this nonsense. There is so much money to be made of the hatred of this small group of people. This is why the birthers are pathetic and will continue to be the punchline of every joke out there…

  353. avatar
    Sef March 18, 2011 at 3:46 pm #

    G: Sorry, I was laughing so hard I accidentally hit SEND before adding the final hilarious kicker to this story…

    At the BOTTOM of that petition page, the P&E explains that:

    So to recap, gullible doofus CBDD from above gets SO excited reading about a letter that Sharon has already mailed to Abercrombie that he rushes off and PAYS $10 to sign on to another petition on their site, which:

    1.Is not connected to the worthless one they just already mailed to Abercrombie…(although from his comment, it is fairly evident he somehow thinks it is)

    2.Is described as intending to be mailed out to a bunch of former officials no longer involved in those offices of state business

    3.Won’t be mailed out UNTIL at least 999 other gullible fools are stupid enough to make the same mistake!!!!

    Yet he get’s to pay them his $10 PAYPAL donation now….

    HILAROUS!

    Scams like this shouldn’t be discouraged. They’re helping to limit postal increases.

  354. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 18, 2011 at 5:00 pm #

    Mike: Lucas— Overlapped kerning dates back to at least the 1700s and most likely much earlier:

    The common ligatures mentioned in this article do not include “ny”.

  355. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 18, 2011 at 7:47 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The common ligatures mentioned in this article do not include “ny”.

    Doc, you are in way over your head. Any combination of letters is possible, not just what you refer to common ones.

    Look how far you’ve come around from the beginning of this blog report. At first none of it was possible on a letterpress and now you’ve come around to some of it being possible, just not the ‘ny’. That is absurd.

    Furthermore, when I first provided the 1938 Kenya report with ‘ff’ on the word tariff (not the middle bars as everyone was trying to zoom in on, but rather the top overhand of the first into the next f) most people on your blog tried to pretend that they either couldn’t see it (year right) or that it was a blemish, scan artifact or and ink bleed. But now that you and other know about printing block now you try to claim that it is in fact possible but only with certain letter combination. Do you know how obtuse that that sounds? (no offense).

    This morning I had a telephone conversation with the printer that I worked for as a teenager. I emailed them a copy of the CPGH 1961 Obama birth certificate. I asked if the document was possible to create on a printing press in 1960 (or even the late 50s).

    He told me that of course it was possible, especially on an offset press and ALSO VERY MUCH so on a letterpress with customs blocks and that they word Kenya could be a single block . The more I pried the more I could tell that he, by the tone of his voice and choice of words, was think that if I hadn’t been any former employee he would not have chosen to take the time to even try to explain something that it is so obvious to an pressman.

    If it was done on an offset (offset lithography) the document could have been created with acid etch (which I was very much already aware of) and various other methods of etch, engraving, gravure. Letter press was also very possible with custom blocks (not that hard to create) and even a block that contained the whole word or sentence.

    The longer I talked with the guy the more apparent it became that these were techniques that any experienced pressman (especially a guy that claims to have 43 years) would be very much aware of. It almost got the point where I was wearing out my welcome by asking weird questions. For example, ‘kerning’, it’s not some special word that pressman believe changed the printing world. All kerning is is the amount of space, or lack of space, between letters. The more I used the word kerning the more I sounded like and idiot and the guy sounded more and more irritated with it.

    Just about anything was possible on old offset presses and with a little imagination (custom blocks) all sorts of kerning were possible on a letterpress.

    Thinking back on this mornings conversation it appears that he was just as frustrated in explaining such easy to understand concepts as I (Lucas) was when I first explained them on this blog the other day.

    Furthermore, looking for examples in ‘books’ is ridiculous. Books often consist of hundreds of pages. The idea is to keep things simple and standard when printing 300 DIFFERENT pages in one book. Do you understand?

    Things change when you are creating a SINGLE document or a single page, whether it be an advertisement, award, certificate, document of birth certificate.

    I also talked face to face with a local print shop about 2 hours ago that I am not associated with in any way. I got the same sort of answers. This place was a family owned place with 5 employees. I could tell again that this guy too was annoyed after a few minutes, much so more than my former employer’s company was, I could tell he thought that I was a complete idiot for questioning and re-questioning simple and known printing methods. He even made a half sarcastic joke about just how long do I (Lucas) think 1960 was?

    Doc, don’t keep digging yourself in deeper. As you reminded me, I did (though did I forgot) once post on your blog several months ago. Do you know why? I posted on your blog because I am sensible enough to know that I when I have made a mistake I should admit to making the mistake. I somehow overlooked the Nordyke birth announcement and I admitted to it. I suggest that you do the same, for the integrity of what you deem as a research blog.

    The ’43 year pressman’ that sent you the email is playing on all the ways that it is possible that the 1961 CPGH Obama birth certificate could NOT have been created in late 50s an early 60s. He’s biased and wrote his email (and latter comments) as a lawyer would make an argument for something that he was trying the convince a jury happened (even though it could have happened in many other ways that were possible).

    Lucas D. Smith

  356. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 18, 2011 at 7:54 pm #

    Lucas your forged certificate was not created in the early 60s. Again we ask why Heltan Manganas name appears on the document when he wasn’t administrator at the time you claimed to have been there. Again you missed the whole point of the pressman from the getgo. Even Docs article referenced there were certain ligatures that were common. FF is one of them. Again you’re twisting and turning all over the place to try to defend a document that has many errors on it. So I’ll ask you again what press did you use to create it?

  357. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 18, 2011 at 8:14 pm #

    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross):
    Lucas your forged certificate was not created in the early 60s.Again we ask why Heltan Manganas name appears on the document when he wasn’t administrator at the time you claimed to have been there.Again you missed the whole point of the pressman from the getgo.Even Docs article referenced there were certain ligatures that were common.FF is one of them.Again you’re twisting and turning all over the place to try to defend a document that has many errors on it.So I’ll ask you again what press did you use to create it?

    Forgive more not answering questions again that I have already answered huindreds of times else where online, and in person, over the course of the last 2 years.

    On February 19th, 2009 I was handed the certified copy of the 1961 CPGH Obama bc by a female member of the admin staff at CPGH (i.e., the hospital in Mombasa). I never met or saw Dr. Maganga.

    Furthermore, people on this blog (this time including Dr Conspiracy) are taking my 09.03.2009 declaration way out context. I (Lucas) never sneaked into the records myself; I didn’t make a copy of anything. Me bribing a Kenyan military/national police officer to look the other way does NOT mean physically turning eyeballs in different direction. It means that the officer allowed me access to the admin staff that had physical access to the document and gave that staff member the go-ahead to get the document for me.

    The document has a 2009, (year 2-0-0-9), on it from the 2009 CPGH admin. That 2009 stamp in on top of the 1961 document; it’s wasn’t originally on the document in 1961. How difficult is to understand this?

  358. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 18, 2011 at 8:32 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Doc, you are in way over your head. Any combination of letters is possible, not just what you refer to common ones.

    He told me that of course it was possible, especially on an offset press and ALSO VERY MUCH so on a letterpress with customs blocks and that [the] word Kenya could be a single block . The more I pried the more I could tell that he, by the tone of his voice and choice of words, was think that if I hadn’t been any former employee he would not have chosen to take the time to even try to explain something that it is so obvious to an pressman.

    Oh my, condescension followed by a appeal to “anonymous authority.”

    I actually considered from the time I first read the Pressman’s email (I didn’t have to “phone a friend”) the possibility of a custom block for “Kenya” given that it was, after all, Kenya where the thing was printed; but I wasn’t going to do your argument for you at this stage in the game, and it didn’t seem to me likely that such a thing existed and if it did why they would draw “ny” in “Kenya” in such a way that it looked different from “ny” in all the other words. I can’t see a typographer doing that.

    The Pressman’s argument, however, really wasn’t that it was impossible to do what we see on your certificate, just that it was impossible to do with a standard Caslon typeface.

    Since I’ve been writing a lot about fallacies today, I guess I should formally label yours: Moving The Goalposts (Raising The Bar, Argument By Demanding Impossible Perfection) which is the cornerstone of all birther arguments: “it’s true unless you prove that it’s impossible.” What you’re doing here (and pretty much in the rest of the defense of your document) is to say that if someone cannot prove what you say is impossible, then it is not disproved. That standard, however, can be weaseled around forever.

    The question is whether a reasonable and informed person concludes that this “Kenya” block (or some other nonstandard typeface) plausibly existed and whether the hospital had two Chief Administrators at the same time, and all the other things that have to come together to make your certificate possible.

    But I press on, and perhaps I may even meet your “impossible” standard of proof.

    PS, do you have a link to that Kenyan identity document you say has the mm/dd/yyyy date format? I wanted to bookmark it. It’s bound to come up before we’re done.

  359. avatar
    Sef March 18, 2011 at 8:35 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Forgive more not answering questions again that I have already answered huindreds of times else where online, and in person, over the course of the last 2 years.

    On February 19th, 2009 I was handed the certified copy of the 1961 CPGH Obama bc by a female member of the admin staff at CPGH (i.e., the hospital in Mombasa).I never met or saw Dr. Maganga.

    Furthermore, people on this blog (this time including Dr Conspiracy) are taking my 09.03.2009 declaration way out context.I (Lucas) never sneaked into the records myself; I didn’t make a copy of anything.Me bribing a Kenyan military/national police officer to look the other way does NOT mean physically turning eyeballs in different direction.It means that the officer allowed me access to the admin staff that had physical access to the document and gave that staff member the go-ahead to get the document for me.

    The document has a 2009, (year 2-0-0-9), on it from the 2009 CPGH admin.That 2009 stamp in on top of the 1961 document; it’s wasn’t originally on the document in 1961.How difficult is to understand this?

    You have not shown the Kenya visa from your passport. Showing this would add credence to your story. It, of course, would not prove the validity of the document as someone in Kenya could have created it to sell to a gullible American.

  360. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 18, 2011 at 8:38 pm #

    Mr. Smith,

    You finally had a good point in this argument (although it is clear from context that you didn’t recognize its import and you still have an overwhelming amount of evidence that shows your document to be a forgery in all probability…). The reason that evidence of kerning in the TEXT of a book (or in other pedestrian documents) is significant is because your BC purports to be a common document – there would be no reason to use uncommon (but available) printing techniques on a standard birth certificate form. It is, however, plausible that a company hired to print forms for the Kenyan government would have had a ‘Kenya’ ligature. Congratulations, I now believe that the document is a forgery for a host of reasons having nothing to do with kerning…

    All,

    I wonder if some sort of legitimate (period) document was used as a template for the forgery and Mr. Smith’s frustration stems from the fact that he knows that this argument was specious but couldn’t prove it without admitting the true provenance of the document…

  361. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 18, 2011 at 8:41 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: The document has a 2009, (year 2-0-0-9), on it from the 2009 CPGH admin. That 2009 stamp in on top of the 1961 document; it’s wasn’t originally on the document in 1961. How difficult is to understand this?

    It’s not hard to understand; it is hard to swallow.

    You claim that the birth certificate was declared some kind of state secret, yet hospital staff were willing to stamp the hospital administrator’s signature stamp with a contemporary date on it, proof that someone did a no-no? And why did you have to bribe a guard to get access to the people who issue certificates to everybody else whose certificates are not state secrets?

    Nope, makes no sense.

  362. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 18, 2011 at 8:49 pm #

    Slartibartfast: I wonder if some sort of legitimate (period) document was used as a template for the forgery and Mr. Smith’s frustration stems from the fact that he knows that this argument was specious but couldn’t prove it without admitting the true provenance of the document

    I sincerely doubt that Mr. Smith had access to a period birth certificate from Kenya (or an original official birth certificate from anywhere). As someone who has worked with government health care forms for 36 years, I see are little things in the form design that just don’t make sense, and one huge thing that doesn’t make sense: the lack of the parent/informant’s signature.

  363. avatar
    Majority Will March 18, 2011 at 9:00 pm #

    Yeah.

    So, here’s what we still know with regards to the truth.

    We still know that President Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii on August 4th, 1961 as confirmed by official Hawaiian authorities.

    We’ve also learned nothing much we didn’t already know (except for a few more vile, personal details) about an unrepentant con artist and amateur, clumsy, literacy challenged forger with no respect for rules or law.

  364. avatar
    Sean March 18, 2011 at 9:02 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: ‘kerning’, it’s not some special word that pressman believe changed the printing world.All kerning is is the amount of space, or lack of space, between letters.The more I used the word kerning the more I sounded like and idiot and the guy sounded more and more irritated with it.

    Probably because it’s now more of a desktop publishing term, and that’s the point. The computer makes these adjustments for you as you lay out the text. take a look at how the last capital T in CERTIFICATE hangs over the A to its left. Look to the right of that A. See how the lower right part of the C hangs over the lower left part of the A?

    Very simple. It was done on a computer.

    You may now commence to calling me names.

  365. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 18, 2011 at 9:11 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I sincerely doubt that Mr. Smith had access to a period birth certificate from Kenya (or an original official birth certificate from anywhere). As someone who has worked with government health care forms for 36 years, I see are little things in the form design that just don’t make sense, and one huge thing that doesn’t make sense: the lack of the parent/informant’s signature.

    There you go being all logical and such… ;-) While I agree with you that, on its own, the kerning issue still leans towards ‘forgery’, the fact that there is a plausible (or even only a somewhat plausible) explanation for the ligature removes much of my confidence in this argument. (By the way, I think that it is hilarious that you held back on this issue until Mr. Smith brought it up on his own…) I would also like to point out another fallacy that I believe Mr. Smith is committing – the fallacy of chasing a sunk cost. I think that Mr. Smith has put much time (and possibly some money, as well) into producing and promoting this document and is desperate to realize some kind of return on that investment. Since it is unlikely in the extreme that he will be able to find someone gullible enough to pay him a large sum of money for the BC, any effort he spends in that direction is just more wasted resources on his part. It’s sad really…

  366. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 18, 2011 at 9:13 pm #

    Majority Will:
    Yeah.

    So, here’s what we still know with regards to the truth.

    We still know that President Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii on August 4th, 1961 as confirmed by official Hawaiian authorities.

    We’ve also learned nothing much we didn’t already know (except for a few more vile, personal details) about an unrepentant con artist and amateur, clumsy, literacy challenged forger with no respect for rules or law.

    Yeah, but you had fun, didn’t you? ;-)

  367. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 18, 2011 at 9:15 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Oh my, condescension followed by a appeal to “anonymous authority.”

    I actually considered from time I first read the Pressman’s email (I didn’t have to “phone a friend”) the possibility of a custom block for “Kenya” given that it was, after all, Kenya where the thing was printed; but I wasn’t going to do your argument for you at this stage in the game, and it didn’t seem to me likely that such a thing existed and if it did why they would kern “ny” in such a way that it looked different from “ny” in all the other words.

    The Pressman’s argument, however, really wasn’t that it was impossible to do what we see on your certificate, just that it was impossible to do with a standard Caslon typeface.

    Since I’ve been writing a lot about fallacies today, I guess I should formally label yours: Moving The Goalposts (Raising The Bar, Argument By Demanding Impossible Perfection) which is the cornerstone of all birther arguments: “it’s true unless you prove that it’s impossible.” What you’re doing here (and pretty much in the rest of the defense of your document) is to say that if someone cannot prove what you say is impossible, then it is not disproved. That standard, however, can be weaseled around forever.

    The question is whether a reasonable and informed person concludes that this “Kenya” block (or some other nonstandard typeface) plausibly existed and whether the hospital had two Chief Administrators at the same time, and all the other things that have to come together to make your certificate possible.

    But I press on, and perhaps I may even meet your “impossible” standard of proof.

    PS, do you have a link to that Kenyan identity document you say has the mm/dd/yyyy date format? I wanted to bookmark it. It’s bound to come up before we’re done.

    Dr Conspiracy,

    Thank you for your objective thoughts.

    You mentioned something about my apply the standard of “it’s true unless you prove that it’s impossible.”

    Of course you can prove something to be impossible. It takes a conscientious mind, objective thought, diligent research and also the discipline not to take things out of context. Also we have to recheck, and double re-check our findings. We have to also use our insight and attempt to see around things that sound, read or appear to impossible to make sure that they aren’t impossible.

    Have you ever tried the “three house & three utilities” puzzle? You draw them on paper and then you try to draw 3 lines, 3 lines coming from each house, and those lines must all connect to three different utilities for each house. The thing is that you are not allowed to ‘cross’ any of the lines. Btw, this is two dimensional, you can’t go deeper underground as you can in the read world.

    Well, it appears to be impossible. The most you can get is 8 lines to connect. The 9th line appears impossible. So you might say to me, Lucas, that is impossible to do the “three house & three utilities” puzzle. I then tell you that it is possible. Then you call me a liar.

    Then, finally, I show you how to complete the puzzle by drawing a line THROUGH the flat two dimensional HOUSE (not crossing the other lines) and, in turn, solving the puzzle.

    I’ll see if I can find you links for the date format.

  368. avatar
    Majority Will March 18, 2011 at 9:26 pm #

    Slartibartfast: Yeah, but you had fun, didn’t you?

    Wheeeeeeeeee. :-|

  369. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 18, 2011 at 9:33 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Have you ever tried the “three house & three utilities” puzzle? You draw them on paper and then you try to draw 3 lines, 3 lines coming from each house, and those lines must all connect to three different utilities for each house. The thing is that you are not allowed to cross’ any of the lines. Btw, this is two dimensional, you can’t go deeper underground as you can in the read world.

    That question is one of mathematics (topology in particular) and mathematical questions are amenable to proof or counterexample. Having spent two and half years arguing with birthers, I have a greater appreciation for the difficulty meeting a standard of impossibility against an opponent with an agile imagination. And conspiracy theorists have the ultimate fallback position: “everybody’s lying.”

    If I had a video of Heltan Maganga stating that he was not the Chief Administrator of the hospital in February of 2009, someone would just say that “Obama got to him.” If I had an different form of birth certificate from the Coast General Hospital issued in 1961, someone would say that the hospital had two different forms, or that Odinga ordered a bunch of fakes be made. Playing that game is a waste of time.

    At some point one has to conclude that they have made their case, and that to the best of their ability, and then move on. It’s not a reasonable goal to try to convince conspiracy theorists that they are wrong, even of the conspiracy theorist has the last word and proclaims “victory.”

  370. avatar
    Sef March 18, 2011 at 9:53 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Have you ever tried the “three house & three utilities” puzzle?

    Maybe you would like to try squaring a circle for your next trick.

  371. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 18, 2011 at 9:55 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: It’s not hard to understand; it is hard to swallow.

    You claim that the birth certificate was declared some kind of state secret, yet hospital staff were willing to stamp the hospital administrator’s signature stamp with a contemporary date on it, proof that someone did a no-no? And why did you have to bribe a guard to get access to the people who issue certificates to everybody else whose certificates are not state secrets?

    Nope, makes no sense.

    Well, many things in life, taken out of context or where the context is not known, make no sense.

    You, and others, are trying (and have been for more than a year) to understand everything that happened in Kenya, and Mombasa, and the CPGH on february 19th, 2009 and you are creating (out of thin air) the context for the event based on a few paragraphs of a very brief and limited 09.03.2009 declaration.

    I have however, over the course of the last couple of years written publicly disclosed letters, done radio interviews, youtube videos and talks face to face with various groups and posted all sorts of long windy rants all over the internet which explain and depict much more that happened back in February of 2009.

    I will recap a few things here on your blog.

    The first official that I bribed in Kenya had no idea of my true intentions for entering the CPGH. My story, all the way up until I was already in the hospital and talking with other staff there, was that I was looking for my sister that was working in Kenya and that she had fallen ill and that my family and I hadn’t heard from her in sometime and that we were very concerned for her and want to know if she is here at CPGH or if she had been.

    While I was talking to CPGH staff I had my friend inside CPGH also talking with the second official (whom we were put in contact with via the first official) that escorted us inside CPGH. When I say officer(s) I am referring to military/police. While I was talking to other staff at CPGH my friend revealed our true intent for being there to the second official and offers him $500 American cash if he can immediately direct us to the person in the hospital that has access to birth records and specifically the original birth record of President Barack Obama, if indeed such a record existed.

    The 2nd officer and my friend then grab me and we are escorted to an office where we I am directed to speak with a female member of the admin staff at CPGH. That’s when I offer $5000 cash for a certified record of president Barack Hussein Obama’s original birth record.

    The female CPGH admin staff member immediately looks over to the 2nd officer at which time the 2nd officer nods at her.

    You know the rest of the story.

  372. avatar
    Sef March 18, 2011 at 9:57 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: The female CPGH admin staff member immediately looks over to the 2nd officer at which time the 2nd officer nods at her.

    Cue the gullible American.

  373. avatar
    misha March 18, 2011 at 9:59 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: You know the rest of the story.

    A genuine copy of a fake Dior.

  374. avatar
    Lil' Red March 18, 2011 at 10:02 pm #

    The comments posted by Lucas D. Smith are extremely revealing.

    Smith, a convicted forger, now admits that he has print shop experience. As the Church Lady would say -“Well isn’t that special!”

    This new piece of information makes it even more likely that Smith created the document. Smith keeps repeating his tired story but has never presented anything that would support his claim of travel to Kenya.

    Great job Doc. Keep Smith talking. Eventually he’ll give away the farm while trying to defend his bogus story. Pretty soon you’lll have him admitting that he created it himself.

  375. avatar
    Sef March 18, 2011 at 10:03 pm #

    misha: A genuine copy of a fake Dior.

    It isn’t fake anything. It’s real Dynel.

  376. avatar
    Sef March 18, 2011 at 10:07 pm #

    Lucas, for that $30 bribe you talked about, did you use 1 $30 bill or 10 $3 bills?

  377. avatar
    misha March 18, 2011 at 10:09 pm #

    Sef: It’s real Dynel.

    Is it real, or is it Memorex™?

  378. avatar
    G March 18, 2011 at 10:19 pm #

    Majority Will: We’ve also learned nothing much we didn’t already know (except for a few more vile, personal details) about an unrepentant con artist and amateur, clumsy, literacy challenged forger with no respect for rules or law.

    And even those details are all honestly suspect (from the kidney story on), because we’re dealing with someone with a long past reputation of falsehoods and exaggeration, ranging from convicted forgery to wild stories about a haunted house he tried to sell.

    What he’s told us about his paast is colorful and entertaining, for sure. It may even contain grains of truth and real elements and events.

    However, Mr. Smith needs to acknowledge that his credibility and reputation are strongly tainted, based on his past history and actions and therefore, in all fairness, people have a right to view anything he says with doubt and skepticism and take any of his professed tales with a grain of salt at best.

    I wish him no ill will in saying that. It simply is what it is and an issue of believability that will continue hang over his head for the rest of his life.

  379. avatar
    Sean March 18, 2011 at 10:21 pm #

    Lil' Red:
    The comments posted by Lucas D. Smith are extremely revealing.

    Smith, a convicted forger, now admits that he has print shop experience. As the Church Lady would say -”Well isn’t that special!”

    This new piece of information makes it even more likely that Smith created the document. Smith keeps repeating his tired story but has never presented anything that would support his claim of travel to Kenya.

    Great job Doc. Keep Smith talking. Eventually he’ll give away the farm while trying to defend his bogus story. Pretty soon you’lll have him admitting that he created it himself.

    He’s already admitted to illegal gun running and having sex with a child.

  380. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 18, 2011 at 10:24 pm #

    Lil' Red:
    The comments posted by Lucas D. Smith are extremely revealing.

    Smith, a convicted forger, now admits that he has print shop experience. As the Church Lady would say -”Well isn’t that special!”

    This new piece of information makes it even more likely that Smith created the document. Smith keeps repeating his tired story but has never presented anything that would support his claim of travel to Kenya.

    Great job Doc. Keep Smith talking. Eventually he’ll give away the farm while trying to defend his bogus story. Pretty soon you’lll have him admitting that he created it himself.

    I’ve always welcomes questions. I like university style debate and enjoy talking with objective thinkers.

    Just about everything that I said on this forum have been said elsewhere online. Although I don’t expect everyone to read everything that I’ve ever written.

    The people that I have worked closest with know all about my and my past. Nothing is hidden.

    I have never denied having a criminal record either.

    I also proudly admit having sold a kidney and saved a life.

    I also take pride in escaping from prison once (for about 7 days, 3 of which I was in a river) and also pride in the one year and 5 days straight that I spent in ‘hole’ (discipline for a class A assault/fight, i.e., defending myself. I have all the paperwork still.) during my five year prison sentence of which I discharged after 3 years and walked out of the prison’s gates on CHRISTMAS morning of 2002, a categorically FREE man! Helped make me the respectful, kind, benevolent, well read, insightful, caring, loyal, hard working, honest, dependable, punctual and polite young man that I am today.

    What I do not enjoy much is talking with people that will say anything, even lie and forge documents, to discredit me.

  381. avatar
    misha March 18, 2011 at 10:39 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: What I do not enjoy much is talking with people that will say anything, even lie and forge documents, to discredit me.

    You owe me a new monitor and keyboard. My dog is cowering from my reaction.

  382. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 18, 2011 at 10:45 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I’ve always welcomes questions.I like university style debate and enjoy talking with objective thinkers.

    Just about everything that I said on this forum have been said elsewhere online.Although I don’t expect everyone to read everything that I’ve ever written.

    The people that I have worked closest with know all about my and my past.Nothing is hidden.

    I have never denied having a criminal record either.

    I also proudly admit having sold a kidney and saved a life.

    I also take pride in escaping from prison once (for about 7 days, 3 of which I was in a river) and also pride in the one year and 5 days straight that I spent in ‘hole’ (discipline for a class A assault/fight, i.e., defending myself. I have all the paperwork still.) during my five year prison sentence of which I discharged after 3 years and walked out of the prison’s gates on CHRISTMAS morning of 2002, a categorically FREE man! Helped make me the respectful, kind, benevolent, well read, insightful, caring, loyal, hard working, honest, dependable, punctual and polite young man that I am today.

    What I do not enjoy much is talking with people that will say anything, even lie and forge documents, to discredit me.

    Nice parody Lucas so you’re saying all your forging, lies, and criminal past somehow makes you honest and dependable. Yet you tried unscrupulously to sell a forgery on ebay before you decided to give it to the world. Funny

  383. avatar
    Sean March 18, 2011 at 10:46 pm #

    I love how con artists can tell a story and characterize themselves as an expert, a victim, a hero, or a rebel or in this case all four.

  384. avatar
    Dr Kenneth Noisewater (Bob Ross) March 18, 2011 at 10:48 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Well, many things in life, taken out of context or where the context is not known, make no sense.

    You, and others, are trying (and have been for more than a year) to understand everything that happened in Kenya, and Mombasa, and the CPGH on february 19th, 2009 and you are creating (out of thin air) the context for the event based on a few paragraphs of a very brief and limited 09.03.2009 declaration.

    I have however, over the course of the last couple of years written publicly disclosed letters, done radio interviews, youtube videos and talks face to face with various groups and posted all sorts of long windy rants all over the internet which explain and depict much more that happened back in February of 2009.

    I will recap a few things here on your blog.

    The first official that I bribed in Kenya had no idea of my true intentions for entering the CPGH.My story, all the way up until I was already in the hospital and talking with other staff there, was that I was looking for my sister that was working in Kenya and that she had fallen ill and that my family and I hadn’t heard from her in sometime and that we were very concerned for her and want to know if she is here at CPGH or if she had been.

    While I was talking to CPGH staff I had my friend inside CPGH also talking with the second official (whom we were put in contact with via the first official) that escorted us inside CPGH. When I say officer(s) I am referring to military/police.While I was talking to other staff at CPGH my friend revealed our true intent for being there to the second official and offers him $500 American cash if he can immediately direct us to the person in the hospital that has access to birth records and specifically the original birth record of President Barack Obama, if indeed such a record existed.

    The 2nd officer and my friend then grab me and we are escorted to an office where we I am directed to speak with a female member of the admin staff at CPGH.That’s when I offer $5000 cash for a certified record of president Barack Hussein Obama’s original birth record.

    The female CPGH admin staff member immediately looks over to the 2nd officer at which time the 2nd officer nods at her.

    You know the rest of the story.

    What were their ranks what did their uniforms look like? Describe the city of Mombasa as another poster has asked you to do.

  385. avatar
    misha March 18, 2011 at 11:01 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: While I was talking to CPGH staff I had my friend inside CPGH also talking with the second official (whom we were put in contact with via the first official) that escorted us inside CPGH.

    How did you travel from Nairobi to Mombasa?

  386. avatar
    G March 18, 2011 at 11:06 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Well, many things in life, taken out of context or where the context is not known, make no sense.

    Personally, I think you are wasting time and there is no ROI on your “Kenyan BC” stories and should move on to more interesting things.

    Weren’t you supposedly in Africa in search of “Mokele-mbembe” around that time? Now THAT sounds like a much more interesting and fun pursuit for you to follow-up on.

    Sometimes these cryptid expeditions allow for the actual discovering of new species of flora & fauna in the area, completely unrelated to any cryptid that folks are searching for. That is still a worthwhile accomplishment. You get to have your name published in a scientific journal if you’re lucky, or at least a mention and forever a link to the discovery.

    Besides, there can be funding for these Cryptid adventures. Lots of shows on History Channel, SyFy, Animal Planet etc. often cover such territory. And that’s just American TV. Many european and asian shows exist that do similar expeditions.

    If you could attach yourself to something like that, you’d have a nice legitimate gig going for you – a paid expedition that get’s broadcast on cable TV!

    Speaking of which, do you have any “official” links to your supposed Mokele-mbembe expedition to share? I mean, these aren’t things that people just go over on their own and search for. They are usually organized outings that require lots of setup and local permissions and guides.

    There was one that took place in 2008 in search of Mokele-mbembe, which was for the show Destination Truth on the Sci-Fi channel (former name of SyFy in place at the time).

    I saw that show and episode. I don’t recall seeing you as part of that crew. There are lots of cryptid groups and sites out there and pretty much all of the actual expeditions are fairly well tracked, documented and discussed on those sites. The only one for “Mokele-mbembe” that seems to come up in 2008 was the one that was done for that Destination Truth episode…

    …So where were you?

  387. avatar
    Woofie March 18, 2011 at 11:29 pm #

    Lucas where is Andy Lenny from? why do you no longer mention him?

  388. avatar
    Expelliarmus March 19, 2011 at 12:07 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: You, and others, are trying (and have been for more than a year) to understand everything that happened in Kenya, and Mombasa, and the CPGH on february 19th, 2009….
    I have however, over the course of the last couple of years written publicly disclosed letters, done radio interviews, youtube videos and talks face to face with various groups and posted all sorts of long windy rants all over the internet which explain and depict much more that happened back in February of 2009.

    And yet, in all that time, it has never occurred to you to post a copy of your visa & passport stamps to demonstrate the dates of your arrival and departure from Kenya.

  389. avatar
    Slartibartfast March 19, 2011 at 12:23 am #

    I would point out that by birther logic Mr. Smith has indisputably proven that his BC is fake by sealing his passport and other travel records…

  390. avatar
    gorefan March 19, 2011 at 1:10 am #

    Here is an example of a British BC

    https://www.bmd-certificates.co.uk/images/birth_large.jpg

    And here is the WND example of a 1964 Kenya BC.

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106135

    Notice the similarities in format.

    Would a 1961 Kenya BC have a format similar to a 1961 British BC?

  391. avatar
    gorefan March 19, 2011 at 1:25 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Nope, makes no sense.

    Dr. C., you asked about the dd/mm/yy convention in Europe. The WND 1964 (?) has a very faint date and the entire date is not legible. But the first number for the date born and date registered is clearly in the twenties. Not likely to be a month.

  392. avatar
    Keith March 19, 2011 at 8:18 am #

    misha: A genuine copy of a fake Dior.

    When I was a kid, the Science Fiction mags and the Comics I read almost always had an ad for ‘Genuine Ersatz Spanish Fly’.

  393. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 19, 2011 at 9:13 am #

    gorefan: Here is an example of a British BC

    https://www.bmd-certificates.co.uk/images/birth_large.jpg

    And here is the WND example of a 1964 Kenya BC.

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106135

    Notice the similarities in format.

    Would a 1961 Kenya BC have a format similar to a 1961 British BC?

    Thanks for mentioning those images. I would not expect a British birth certificate to “look like” one from Kenya, but I would expect them to have similar content. As I pointed out before, the Smith certificate lacks one item of information that is present and identically labeled on both the British and Kenyan examples:

    Signature, Description and Residence of Informant

    This item cannot be filled in on the government document unless it is present on the hospital document in the first place, and this (among many other reasons) is how I know the Smith certificate is made up out of whole cloth.

  394. avatar
    Reality Check March 19, 2011 at 9:36 am #

    Besides the dead giveaways that the Smith BC is a forgery there are two other items that stand out:

    First, the footprints have no ridges on the toes or the soles. The point of footprints on the hospital ceremonial footprints was to give parents a [false] sense of security that this really was their baby. It is hard to imagine how you could ink a foot and get the lines shown on the Smith forgery without producing ridges also. It appears to have been made from a clip art type footprint and then photo shopped a bit. Of course as Doc mentioned he has never seen baby footprints on a government issued birth certificate.

    Second, besides the dates being in the US format of MM/DD/YYYY vs. the British DD/MM/YYYY format it would be very uncommon in 1961 for someone to include four digits in the year when writing a date by hand. I certainly didn’t do this or start seeing this done until the 1990’s when we neared the Millennium. Then in the 2000’s it became much more common. Now, someone who had spent almost there entire adult life in the Millennium period probably has always used a 4 digit year when hand dating and would easily miss this minor point when trying to back date a document.

  395. avatar
    Black Lion March 19, 2011 at 10:00 am #

    The bottom line is that we all know that the Smith Kenyan BC is a fake. Lets be honest. If Lucas Smith had actually visited Kenya and not the Caribbean, he would have produced proof such as an airline ticket or hotel registration information that could have been verified. Because he didn’t we know that he didn’t visit Kenya and his story as well as the so called Kenyan BC is a phony….

  396. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 19, 2011 at 10:21 am #

    G: However, Mr. Smith needs to acknowledge that his credibility and reputation are strongly tainted, based on his past history and actions and therefore, in all fairness, people have a right to view anything he says with doubt and skepticism and take any of his professed tales with a grain of salt at best.

    That’s certainly true; however, I see the present exchange of comments as more of a game of intellectual ping pong. It’s not like anyone here is going to change their opinion of the Smith certificate’s authenticity, and for that reason Mr. Smith’s credibility is really not an issue.

  397. avatar
    Paul Pieniezny March 19, 2011 at 10:25 am #

    Mary Adams: Exactly.
    There is no reason whatsoever for a hospital to make, much less keep a document such Smith’s fake birth certificate.

    Why do birfers have Obama born in Mombasa, rather than somewhere closer to his father’s ancestral home?

    Because Kenyan hospitals in Nairobi are known to have had racial segregation until the end of 1961. I’ve seen at least one early birfer thread on BBC forums where an old colonial British guy intervened claiming the birth of a racially mixed baby In 1961 Nairobi was impossible. (of course, Mombasa also has a threatening Islamic name, but that was at first just a bonus.

    Since there is (limited) evidence of Arabs and whites intermarrying in the coastal area of Mombasa, this birth place though completely illogical in the real world, solves the problem – in the minds of birfers.

    But there is more. Kenyan authorities only registered the births of white children before independence. So, even if Obama Sr was an Arab, the birth of his son would not have been registered.

    Which only leaves the hospital souvenir. Leading to Mr Smith’s shenanigans top try to prove it is for real.

    Oh, and I think he will never prove that he was ever in Kenya, even with a faked visa. You see, Kenya is on record as saying they will do everything to bring these forgers of Obama’s birth certificates to justice (including the Bomford one, even though it was never meant to hurt Obama, quite on the contrary). Add of course, that Mr Smith is supposed to “help Kenyan authorities in their enquiries into alleged birth certificate bribery” (which according to some Kenyan websites is rampant in Kenya). No way the USA will ever extradite Mr Smith, of course, but a third country might.

    Providing (fake) proof that his (fake) bribery to get a (fake) birth certificate is real, may mean Mr Smith will in future have to be very careful when leaving the USA. Not that he has done that very often. (except to go to the Caribbean to film lots of “black” youths and pretend they are Kenyan)

  398. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 19, 2011 at 10:34 am #

    Reality Check: Besides the dead giveaways that the Smith BC is a forgery there are two other items that stand out:

    First, the footprints have no ridges on the toes or the soles. The point of footprints on the hospital ceremonial footprints was to give parents a [false] sense of security that this really was their baby. It is hard to imagine how you could ink a foot and get the lines shown on the Smith forgery without producing ridges also. It appears to have been made from a clip art type footprint and then photo shopped a bit. Of course as Doc mentioned he has never seen baby footprints on a government issued birth certificate.

    Second, besides the dates being in the US format of MM/DD/YYYY vs. the British DD/MM/YYYY format it would be very uncommon in 1961 for someone to include four digits in the year when writing a date by hand. I certainly didn’t do this or start seeing this done until the 1990′s when we neared the Millennium. Then in the 2000′s it became much more common. Now, someone who had spent almost there entire adult life in the Millennium period probably has always used a 4 digit year when hand dating and would easily miss this minor point when trying to back date a document.

    The Smith certificate is not in the form of a government-issued certificate, but is claimed to be a hospital-issued certificate. All bets are off on what a hospital might do.

    In thinking about the footprints, I’m led back to the earlier question of why the document is so crummy looking. Smith’s story is that he, in person, obtained a certified copy of the certificate from the hospital. One would expect a hospital to have the original document that it produced, and one would expect that the certified copy would have been made using a contemporary photocopy machine. So why is it distorted, and why is it blotchy?

    BTW, I did check Dr. Heltan Maganga’s profile on the LinkedIn professional networking site. However one finds the name spelled on the Internet, the profile that our learned surgeon created for himself spells the name “Heltan.” I cannot imagine that a professional of Dr. Maganga’s stature would not spell his name consistently, nor that someone who had achieved the rank of Chief Administrator (albeit later) would tolerate his name misspelled on his signature stamp.

  399. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 19, 2011 at 10:50 am #

    Lucas D. Smith: I set the 3rd bribe ($5000) down in front of a female member of the admin staff and told her that if she could bring me a certified copy of President Barack Obama’s ORIGINAL BIRTH RECORD, if a such a record existed, within XXXXXX amount of time, that the money was her’s too keep. The military officer was in the room and he nodded to her when she immediately looked over at him after I offered her the deal.

    That’s funny. I paid some money to someone in Kenya who got me a certified copy of my own birth certificate, but it cost a heck of a lot less than $5000! (I was really born in Alabama.)

    This opens up another line of speculation, that Smith never went to Kenya, but was defrauded by a Kenyan con man to supplied essentially the same bribery story along with the fake certificate. That’s a fun theory, but I would expect that a real Kenyan con man would get the date format right, and I wouldn’t expect Smith to part with $5,000 so easily.

  400. avatar
    Sef March 19, 2011 at 10:50 am #

    Paul Pieniezny: Oh, and I think he will never prove that he was ever in Kenya, even with a faked visa. You see, Kenya is on record as saying they will do everything to bring these forgers of Obama’s birth certificates to justice (including the Bomford one, even though it was never meant to hurt Obama, quite on the contrary). Add of course, that Mr Smith is supposed to “help Kenyan authorities in their enquiries into alleged birth certificate bribery” (which according to some Kenyan websites is rampant in Kenya). No way the USA will ever extradite Mr Smith, of course, but a third country might.

    So, he has just shot himself in the foot and will never again be allowed entry into his beloved Kenya without the risk of being arrested. Funnneee!

  401. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 19, 2011 at 11:00 am #

    Black Lion: The bottom line is that we all know that the Smith Kenyan BC is a fake. Lets be honest. If Lucas Smith had actually visited Kenya and not the Caribbean, he would have produced proof such as an airline ticket or hotel registration information that could have been verified. Because he didn’t we know that he didn’t visit Kenya and his story as well as the so called Kenyan BC is a phony….

    Let me play devil’s advocate here and take what you said and change a few words:

    The bottom line is that we all know that the Obama Hawaiian BC is a fake. Lets be honest. If Barack Obama had actually been born in Hawaii and not Kenya, he would have produced proof such as a long-form birth certificate, a receipt for ordering the COLB that could have been verified. Because he didn’t we know that he wasn’t bon in Hawaii and his story as well as the so called COLB is a phony.

  402. avatar
    Sef March 19, 2011 at 11:14 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Let me play devil’s advocate here and take what you said and change a few words:

    So you saying that since we are the ones trying to impeach the document, Lucas does not need to prove anything. Interesting. Sounds like a stalemate to me as none of us are actually going to make a trip to Mombasa.

  403. avatar
    Majority Will March 19, 2011 at 11:19 am #

    Black Lion:
    The bottom line is that we all know that the Smith Kenyan BC is a fake.Lets be honest.If Lucas Smith had actually visited Kenya and not the Caribbean, he would have produced proof such as an airline ticket or hotel registration information that could have been verified.Because he didn’t we know that he didn’t visit Kenya and his story as well as the so called Kenyan BC is a phony….

    Well, yeah. That and the state of Hawaii has official documentation that President Obama was born in Honolulu, HI on 8/4/61 and that official, government issued certificate is admissible as evidence in any U.S. court of law.

    Hold the Razor. This is Ockham’s Laughter.

  404. avatar
    misha March 19, 2011 at 11:24 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: I paid some money to someone in Kenya who got me a certified copy of my own birth certificate, but it cost a heck of a lot less than $5000!

    My cat’s Kenya BC cost about $3.75:
    http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com/2009/09/another-kenyan-birth-certificate.html

  405. avatar
    misha March 19, 2011 at 11:26 am #

    Sef: Sounds like a stalemate to me as none of us are actually going to make a trip to Mombasa.

    My cat was born there, and I have proof!

  406. avatar
    Scientist March 19, 2011 at 11:40 am #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Let me play devil’s advocate here and take what you said and change a few words:
    The bottom line is that we all know that the Obama Hawaiian BC is a fake. Lets be honest. If Barack Obama had actually been born in Hawaii and not Kenya, he would have produced proof such as a long-form birth certificate, a receipt for ordering the COLB that could have been verified. Because he didn’t we know that he wasn’t bon in Hawaii and his story as well as the so called COLB is a phony.

    In science, the standard of proof required varies greatly with the reasonableness of the proposed postulate. Someone travelling from Hawaii to Kenya (where she knew not a soul) to give birth is completely preposterous. Even being married to a Kenyan the event is still nonsensical, since the Kenyan lived in the US for several years prior to and several years after the birth. I knew many foreign students and fellows when I was in graduate school quite a few of whom had children born, all of them in the town where the school was. The fact that the mother was a US citizen living with her parents makes a jaunt to Kenya even less likely.

    Suppose there were no birth documents at all? Which birth story would a reasonable person believe, the mother travelling 10,000 miles to a developing country where she didn’t know a soul or giving birth where she, her parents and husband all lived and where excellent medical care was readiily available?

    If I want to claim that pigs can fly I need much more proof than if I want to make the same claiim about birds.

  407. avatar
    Sef March 19, 2011 at 11:48 am #

    It really comes down to this. None of us were actually present at baby Obama’s birth, so we must use the best evidence available. The Obama Campaign posted what purports to be his birth certificate from Hawaii. Photos were also posted of this document. There were contemporaneous newspaper entries that only came from the HI DoH. There is evidence that his parents and grandparents actually lived in HI. There is the story of “Stanley had a baby” from his doctor. Contrast this with the total implausibility of a trip from HI to Mombasa of his very pregnant mother, the impossibility of registering a foreign born child in the required time frame, the fact that Lucas says he procured the supposed BC through bribery, the video of kids in the Caribbean instead of Kenya, and all the document problems. This is an easy one. I believe President Obama was born in HI as he says.

  408. avatar
    misha March 19, 2011 at 12:00 pm #

    Scientist: the mother travelling 10,000 miles to a developing country

    It’s closer to 11K miles, and about one week of travel on prop airplanes. The 707 was not yet in common service. AFAIK, BOAC was not yet flying the 707; their fleet was still prop jobs in 1961. When the Beatles came to the States for the first time, it was on a prop plane. Plus, Dunham was in her 3rd trimester, and BHO Sr. was married to a Kenyan. Talk about awkward. Also, the hospital in Mombasa that is claimed, was dependent on a generator. Electricity was from a cable strung along trees – not reliable.

  409. avatar
    Northland10 March 19, 2011 at 12:11 pm #

    It would have been helpful had Mr. Smith taken a few pictures of the location and/or other documents viewed at the hospital, for comparison. Maybe he couldn’t get the micro-camera to turn on (we have heard that can be difficult).

    Well, if we want some comparison, there is a 1940s style from Zanzibar which may be useful for type and date style (Freddy Mercury):

    http://mr-mercury.co.uk/Images/Birthcertificatefreddie.jpg

    Then there is a purported 1958 Kenyan Birth Certificate (I have no additional evidence so I cannot be sure of the authenticity). It is interesting that it is actually for the Coast Province (Mombasa). The format does match the style that WND had shown. I would note the Y’s, the date format and the common inconsistencies found with manual typewriters (alignment, spacing, etc.). If it is a forgery, I dare say, it was done with more care.

    http://www.notanotherconspiracy.com/2009/08/obama-birth-certificate-comparison-is.html

    I did find a recent Tanzania birth certificate that actually is very close in style to the one above. Since it comes from a blog that has nothing to do with Obama Conspiracies, I am hesitant to actually give a link.

  410. avatar
    Majority Will March 19, 2011 at 12:13 pm #

    G: . . . in all fairness, people have a right to view anything he says with doubt and skepticism and take any of his professed tales with a grain of salt at best.

    The Sifto and Khewra mines combined along with the evaporation of the Pacific would still not be nearly enough.

    In all fairness.

  411. avatar
    aarrgghh March 19, 2011 at 12:55 pm #

    If I want to claim that pigs can fly I need much more proof than if I want tomake the same claiim about birds.

    … maybe a little more if you had a few convictions for fraud on your resume.

  412. avatar
    Sean March 19, 2011 at 1:04 pm #

    Northland10:

    Then there is a purported 1958 Kenyan Birth Certificate (I have no additional evidence so I cannot be sure of the authenticity).It is interesting that it is actually for the Coast Province (Mombasa).The format does match the style that WND had shown.I would note the Y’s, the date format and the common inconsistencies found with manual typewriters (alignment, spacing, etc.).If it is a forgery, I dare say, it was done with more care.

    http://www.notanotherconspiracy.com/2009/08/obama-birth-certificate-comparison-is.html

    The 2nd Kenyan BC looks good except it shows they paid the fee in the form of shillings. Kenya, as far as I know, used dollars and cents.

  413. avatar
    Mary Adams March 19, 2011 at 2:45 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: All bets are off on what a hospital might do.

    You can bet a hospital is not going to make and keep an unnecessary document.

  414. avatar
    Sef March 19, 2011 at 2:52 pm #

    Sean: The 2nd Kenyan BC looks good except it shows they paid the fee in the form of shillings. Kenya, as far as I know, used dollars and cents.

    Also, isn’t there the Zanzibar question for Mombasa? Or has this been settled & I missed it?

  415. avatar
    Mary Adams March 19, 2011 at 2:56 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: On February 19th, 2009 I was handed the certified copy of the 1961 CPGH Obama bc by a female member of the admin staff at CPGH (i.e., the hospital in Mombasa).

    Complete and utter bull. Birth certificates are issued by the District Registrar of Births.

    “To obtain a birth certificate, present this notification to the District Registrar of Births where this birth occurred.”

    http://www.births.go.ke/PDF%20forms/form_b1_pt_1.pdf

  416. avatar
    Mary Adams March 19, 2011 at 2:58 pm #

    Sean: The 2nd Kenyan BC looks good except it shows they paid the fee in the form of shillings. Kenya, as far as I know, used dollars and cents.

    Don’t know about 1958, but it’s in Kenyan Shillings now:

    ” What do you require to apply for a birth certificate?

    * Kshs.50 if there are no amendments on records.
    * Maximum of kshs.130 if there are amendments.”

    http://www.births.go.ke/faqs.htm

  417. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 19, 2011 at 2:59 pm #

    Sean: The 2nd Kenyan BC looks good except it shows they paid the fee in the form of shillings. Kenya, as far as I know, used dollars and cents.

    Sean,

    Don’t worry there you old history buff you. I don’t think that Kenya, Kenya Colony or Kenya Protectorate EVER used dollars and cents.

  418. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 19, 2011 at 3:07 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Don’t worry there you old history buff you. I don’t think that Kenya, Kenya Colony or Kenya Protectorate EVER used dollars and cents.

    No, but they used shillings and cents.

  419. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 19, 2011 at 3:10 pm #

    Northland10:

    Well, if we want some comparison, there is a 1940s style from Zanzibar which may be useful for type and date style (Freddy Mercury):

    http://mr-mercury.co.uk/Images/Birthcertificatefreddie.jpg

    Hello Northland,

    For almost a year now I’ve found the Zanzibar government birth certificate of Freddie Mercury (born Farrokh Bulsara) to be very interesting the .

    If the document is real (because I know a very interesting story, first hand account, about a guy, no not me Lucas, that went over there trying to get a copy and he had some problems with that) if find it to be very interesting that IT LOOKS VERY MUCH like the 1961 CPGH Obama bc.

    What does everyone here think? Am I looking too hard?

  420. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 19, 2011 at 3:11 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: No, but they used shillings and cents.

    Yes, of course, that was my point.

  421. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 19, 2011 at 3:14 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: No, but they used shillings and cents.

    Opps. I see your point. I retract my misstatement about dollars AND CENTS. Of course they used cents. Just not ‘dollars.’

  422. avatar
    Sean March 19, 2011 at 3:24 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Yes, of course, that was my point.

    Why didn’t you use that red one as a template?

  423. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 19, 2011 at 3:34 pm #

    .

    Dr. Conspiracy,

    Somewhere in this very lengthy comment section of your report, and also I read in the past where you mention this as well, you state that you have many years of experience or knowledge of birth records (in the USA?).

    However, as I always point out, there is a big world out there and we can’t always apply or system of norms to the rest of the world.

    Here, at my scribd account for since 2009, is a birth certificate from India (as you know, India was a former British colony):

    Here we have a hospital birth certificate which inherently implies that the child was born at the Military Hospital Jabalpur. There is no “place of birth” mentioned. Nor is there a “born at this hospital” or “in this hospital” mentioned in the birth certificate.

    As with all hospital birth certificates, birth place is implicit. To think otherwise would be imprudent, irrational and obtuse.

    Please note also that there is no name given for the new born child. Nor is there any area on the birth certificate that asks for the new born child’s name.

    Here we have an example of just how little that we, as Americans, know about foreign birth certificates.

    “India / Military Hospital Jabalpur / Hospital Birth Certificate / no birth place / no child name”

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/23421902/India-Military-Hospital-Jabalpur-Hospital-Birth-Certificate-no-birth-place-no-child-name?in_collection=2511118

  424. avatar
    Northland10 March 19, 2011 at 3:38 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: IT LOOKS VERY MUCH like the 1961 CPGH Obama bc.

    Well, except for the date format issue, again.

    I will grant that the authenticity has not been verified.

  425. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 19, 2011 at 3:48 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: Dr. Conspiracy,

    Somewhere in this very lengthy comment section of your report, and also I read in the past where you mention this as well, you state that you have many years of experience or knowledge of birth records (in the USA?).

    However, as I always point out, there is a big world out there and we can’t always apply or system of norms to the rest of the world.

    Here, at my scribd account for since 2009, is a birth certificate from India (as you know, India was a former British colony):

    Here we have a hospital birth certificate which inherently implies that the child was born at the Military Hospital Jabalpur. There is no “place of birth” mentioned. Nor is there a “born at this hospital” or “in this hospital” mentioned in the birth certificate.

    As with all hospital birth certificates, birth place is implicit. To think otherwise would be imprudent, irrational and obtuse.

    Please note also that there is no name given for the new born child. Nor is there any area on the birth certificate that asks for the new born child’s name.

    Here we have an example of just how little that we, as Americans, know about foreign birth certificates.

    “India / Military Hospital Jabalpur / Hospital Birth Certificate / no birth place / no child name”

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/23421902/India-Military-Hospital-Jabalpur-Hospital-Birth-Certificate-no-birth-place-no-child-name?in_collection=2511118

    Yes, I have 35 years experience with vital statistics in the United States. While haven’t implemented any systems there, I have assisted in the technical preparation of competitive bids for vital statistics software in Kenya and Canada.

    That certificate image you put on Scribd is quite odd, and you must admit, useless as a birth certificate without even so much as child’s name on it.

    Nevertheless, birth certificates from just a few years after Kenyan independence included a place for the informant’s name, and that is missing from your hospital document.

    Certainly that fake birth certificate you cobbled up for Barack Obama certainly proves your statement about: “how little that we, as Americans, know about foreign birth certificates”.

  426. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 19, 2011 at 3:55 pm #

    .

    Dr. Conspiracy,

    I know that you are a bright guy and all but the following HOSPITAL birth certificate from 1950 (USA by the way) contains about the same info as the 1961 CPGH Obama bc.

    No signature from mummy and daddy. Only the doctor and the director signed. Nice single ‘footy’ as well. Then there’s that pesky embossed seal.

    How do you call it? A forgery? I hope you don’t because I know for certain that it is real.

    It’s been on my scribd account (just like all the linked evidence that I have supplied throughout the comments section here) and since 11.28.2009.

    “Patricia Anne Gillespie / 1950 hospital birth certificate with one footprint / embossed seal”

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/23274567/Patricia-Anne-Gillespie-1950-hospital-birth-certificate-with-one-footprint-embossed-seal?in_collection=2511118

  427. avatar
    Scientist March 19, 2011 at 3:56 pm #

    Lucas-Let me say this as clearly as I can in the vain hope that it will penetrate the solid concrete of your skull. No one gives a rodent’s hindquarters about your “certiificate”, the typeface or the paper it’s printed on. The “event” it is purporting to document never happened. Therefore, it doesn’t matter how or where the certificate was generated. A fiction book does not become non-fiction by being printed on the finest paper with the best of ink. Even if you could establish beyond a shadow of a doubt that it came from a hospital in Kenya, it would merely be a hospital-generated document of a fictional event.

  428. avatar
    Sef March 19, 2011 at 4:00 pm #

    Scientist: Even if you could establish beyond a shadow of a doubt that it came from a hospital in Kenya, it would merely be a hospital-generated document of a fictional event.

    And a gullible American was fleeced of more than $6k for it, if this is the case. A famous line purportedly said by P. T. Barnum comes to mind.

  429. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 19, 2011 at 4:01 pm #

    Scientist:
    Lucas-Let me say this as clearly as I can in the vain hope that it will penetrate the solid concrete of your skull.No one gives a rodent’s hindquarters about your “certiificate”, the typeface or the paper it’s printedon.The “event” it is purporting to documentnever happened. Therefore, it doesn’t matter how or where the certificate was generated.A fiction book does not become non-fiction by being printed on the finest paper with thebest of ink. Even if you could establish beyond a shadow of a doubt that it came from a hospital in Kenya, it would merely be a hospital-generated document of a fictional event.

    If what you say is true, “No one gives a rodent’s hindquarters about your “certiificate”, then why do you have to tell me that and why do you keep posting comments?

    You are like the people on the news that tell us that Obama’s birth has already been explained and there is no point talking about it. Why do they have to always say that?

    If it is obviously then why do you have to instill it into peoples brains?

    Good day.

  430. avatar
    Lucas D. Smith March 19, 2011 at 4:05 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: That certificate image you put on Scribd is quite odd, and you must admit, useless as a birth certificate without even so much as child’s name on it.

    Doc, again you prove my point right.

    You state, “That certificate image you put on Scribd is quite odd, and you must admit, useless as a birth certificate without even so much as child’s name on it.”

    Well, sorry doc, but that sort of birth certificate is very much normal in India.

    You can read stories online about people from India that have had problems here in the US when they try to present their birth document (and before they come to the USA when they present it).

    Plenty of stories about that online.

    I hope that you, as a serious researcher, can appreciate this simple truth.

  431. avatar
    Sef March 19, 2011 at 4:05 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: If it is obviously then why do you have to instill it into peoples brains?

    Because it is vitally important to continue to counter the rubbish that people like you spew with the true facts.

  432. avatar
    Majority Will March 19, 2011 at 4:13 pm #

    “why do you keep posting comments”

    The down and out, convicted forger and pathological liar doesn’t get the amusement part of his elaborate and ridiculous fiction. He also doesn’t understand (and probably isn’t capable of understanding) the need to expose birther liars and con artists for what they are. The most common birther meme is to repeat lies often enough thinking that the lies will magically come true. People need to know the truth about these despicable liars whether motivated by bigotry or the need to scam people for money.

    It’s also like witnessing the clumsy acts of a freak at a circus show with no cover charge.

    I’m making more popcorn.

  433. avatar
    Majority Will March 19, 2011 at 4:14 pm #

    Sef: Because it is vitally important to continue to counter the rubbish that people like you spew with the true facts.

    Thank you for expressing it more succinctly! :-)

  434. avatar
    Mary Adams March 19, 2011 at 4:21 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: That certificate image you put on Scribd is quite odd, and you must admit, useless as a birth certificate without even so much as child’s name on it.

    Doc, I believe that India Military Hospital “BC” is similar to the Kenya form that the seizure-carp guy thinks is a hospital-issued official BC in that the parents take it to the appropriate government entity and register the birth and then they are issued an official BC.

    Otherwise, there is no point in issuing a BC with no child’s name on it.

  435. avatar
    Mary Adams March 19, 2011 at 4:28 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: the following HOSPITAL birth certificate from 1950 (USA by the way) contains about the same info as the 1961 CPGH Obama bc.

    LOL!

    A hospital KEEPSAKE BC.

    Patricia would NOT be able to go to University Hospital and get a copy of that, certified or not.

    You are pitiful. Sooooooo desperate to get the gullible to believe your forgery.

    Once again: why is your “baby Obama” grotesquely out of proportion as far as weight and length and yet President Obama is not?

  436. avatar
    Sean March 19, 2011 at 4:37 pm #

    Majority Will:
    “why do you keep posting comments”

    The down and out, convicted forger and pathological liar doesn’t get the amusement part of his elaborate and ridiculous fiction. He also doesn’t understand (and probably isn’t capable of understanding) the need to expose birther liars and con artists for what they are. The most common birther meme is to repeat lies often enough thinking that the lies will magically come true. People need to know the truth about these despicable liars whether motivated by bigotry or the need to scam people for money.

    It’s also like witnessing the clumsy acts of a freak at a circus show with no cover charge.

    I’m making more popcorn.

    To me, it’s like how some watch sports. It truly is entertaining and captivating. And as time goes by and more people examine the topic of birth certificates and Presidential eligibility, the truth rises to the top. It did with the Bomford hoax and it did with the Smith forgery, and for that matter it did for the Alien Autopsy and the Hitler Diaries. All fun stuff.

  437. avatar
    Mary Adams March 19, 2011 at 5:01 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: You state, “That certificate image you put on Scribd is quite odd, and you must admit, useless as a birth certificate without even so much as child’s name on it.”

    Well, sorry doc, but that sort of birth certificate is very much normal in India.

    You can read stories online about people from India that have had problems here in the US when they try to present their birth document (and before they come to the USA when they present it).

    Plenty of stories about that online.

    LOL!

    Yeah, just like there are plenty of stories of Americans trying to use their hospital keepsake “footie” BC, there are stories of others trying to use the form they were supposed to use to register with the govt.

    “Additional Information for India

    Registration of birth (reporting birth) was voluntary prior to 1970. However, even after 1970, many people didn’t register the birth as there was no strict enforcement.

    A birth certificate can be obtained at local municipal or village authorities […] that are maintained under the state laws.”

    http://www.immihelp.com/birth-certificate/birth-certificate-tips-india.html

  438. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 19, 2011 at 5:04 pm #

    Mary Adams: Doc, I believe that India Military Hospital “BC” is similar to the Kenya form that the seizure-carp guy thinks is a hospital-issued official BC in that the parents take it to the appropriate government entity and register the birth and then they are issued an official BC.

    Otherwise, there is no point in issuing a BC with no child’s name on it.

    Yes, that’s about all that makes sense.

  439. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 19, 2011 at 5:13 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I hope that you, as a serious researcher, can appreciate this simple truth.

    The only reason to think you went to Kenya is because you say so. The only reason to think that your certificate is authentic is because you say so. The only reason to think that the Coast hospital has any birth documents from 1961 at all is because you say so. That a document like yours ever existed before on the history of humankind relies solely on your say so. The bribe, the guard, and the whole narrative is based on nothing but your say so. Even your claims to have reformed your past criminal ways is based just on your say so.

    Well guess what? Your say so isn’t good enough for a “serious researcher.”

  440. avatar
    Mary Adams March 19, 2011 at 5:28 pm #

    So, just like Kenya, the family is responsible for registering births:

    “Additional Information for India

    Registration of birth (reporting birth) was voluntary prior to 1970. However, even after 1970, many people didn’t register the birth as there was no strict enforcement.

    A birth certificate can be obtained at local municipal or village authorities […] that are maintained under the state laws.”

    http://www.immihelp.com/birth-certificate/birth-certificate-tips-india.html

    Gee, nothing about obtaining a BC from a hospital.

  441. avatar
    Scientist March 19, 2011 at 5:52 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: If it is obviously then why do you have to instill it into peoples brains?

    Because brain instillation obviously failed with you. I will leave it to others to speculate as to whether the instillation failed in your case for lack of substrate.

    Let me tell you why I mistrust ANY document, no matter how pretty, that tells a story that doesn’t make sense. I can do so in 2 words, “Bernie Madoff”. For almost 2 decades, Bernie produced the most beautiful statements for his cllients. Impeccable paper, lovely fonts. And every year, whether the markets were up 25% or down 30%, his clients made 12%. Oh, and at the time, Madoff was not a convicted forger and self-admitted child molester, violator of the FCPA and seller of organs, but one of the most respected figures on Wall Street.

    Some chose to believe his pretty documents, especially since they told them what they wanted to hear. The wise people looked at his story, saw it made no sense and stayed clear.

    So if I want to know where the President was born, I don’t need your documents or even Hawaii’s. I only have to look at 2 competing narratives:

    1. A young woman gets pregnant and gives birth where she, her parents and the baby’s father live, where she has access to first rate medical care. Call that the story of the legitimate investment fund, that behaves in a manner consistent with market principles.

    2. A young woman traipses 11,000 miles (thanks Misha) with several changes of planes in several countries to give birth in a third-world country in the midst of a struggle for independence, where she knows no one and then hightails it home to go to school. Call that the Madoff story.

    Can you give me a reason why I should invest in something that clearly cannot be true no matter what documents I might look at?

  442. avatar
    Black Lion March 19, 2011 at 6:08 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Let me play devil’s advocate here and take what you said and change a few words:

    Good point Doc…However an essential difference is that we have the state of HI on record stating that the COLB is authentic and that President Obama was BORN in HI. We don’t have anything similar from Kenya. Also there are contempary COLB’s that the President’s can be compared to unlike the forgery from Lucas Smith. The essential difference is that on one hand we have a government agency vouching for one document from HI and we have on one but the word of a convicted forger vouching for the so called document from Kenya….

  443. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 19, 2011 at 6:16 pm #

    Scientist: Let me tell you why I mistrust ANY document, no matter how pretty, that tells a story that doesn’t make sense. I can do so in 2 words, “Bernie Madoff”. For almost 2 decades, Bernie produced the most beautiful statements for his cllients. Impeccable paper, lovely fonts. And every year, whether the markets were up 25% or down 30%, his clients made 12%. Oh, and at the time, Madoff was not a convicted forger and self-admitted child molester, violator of the FCPA and seller of organs, but one of the most respected figures on Wall Street.

    Or closer to the point, every year Americans pour hundreds of millions of dollars in to “419 scams” that provide them with very convincing government and bank documents, covered in official seals and the signatures of officials.

    Heck, that hospital in Mombasa could have a drawer full of fake Obama birth certificates that they sell to gullible Americans for $5,000 a pop. In fact, I have a birth certificate I obtained from Kenya for myself, and do you know? I was born at the Coast General Hospital in Mombasa in 1961! So I have first-hand experience with fake documents from Africa.

  444. avatar
    Majority Will March 19, 2011 at 6:25 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: The only reason to think you went to Kenya is because you say so. The only reason to think that your certificate is authentic is because you say so. The only reason to think that the Coast hospital has any birth documents from 1961 at all is because you say so. That a document like yours ever existed before on the history of humankind relies solely on your say so. The bribe, the guard, and the whole narrative is based on nothing but your say so. Even your claims to have reformed your bast criminal ways is based just on your say so.

    Well guess what? Your say so isn’t good enough for a “serious researcher.”

    I would add that the only reason to think that this is Lucas D. Smith is because the poster says so (with a meaningless link to YouTube).

  445. avatar
    Majority Will March 19, 2011 at 6:30 pm #

    “It’s also like witnessing the clumsy acts of a freak at a circus show with no cover charge.”

    And I meant to add, “thanks, Doc.”

    Quite entertaining.

  446. avatar
    gorefan March 19, 2011 at 6:30 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: That certificate image you put on Scribd is quite odd, and you must admit, useless as a birth certificate without even so much as child’s name on it.

    This may explain why the certificate looks so strange.

    http://www.immihelp.com/birth-certificate/birth-certificate-tips-india.html

    Under the section “Additional Information For India”

    “There is no standard or uniform certificate issued by the authorities. Therefore you may see variation in birth formats, at least from one state to another.”

    This explains the lack of child name,

    http://www.immihelp.com/birth-certificate/name-issues.html#no-name-birth-certificate

    “It is a religious custom in India not to name the child immediately after birth. Therefore, hospital records and/or birth records may not show the name of the child, even if the birth was reported and registered.”

    One again Lucas produces the odd example, and claims that is the standard. He presents no evidence that the same situation existed in Kenya. It’s the typical misdirection seen in many magic tricks or con games.

  447. avatar
    y_p_w March 19, 2011 at 6:33 pm #

    Black Lion: Good point Doc…However an essential difference is that we have the state of HI on record stating that the COLB is authentic and that President Obama was BORN in HI.We don’t have anything similar from Kenya.Also there are contempary COLB’s that the President’s can be compared to unlike the forgery from Lucas Smith.The essential difference is that on one hand we have a government agency vouching for one document from HI and we have on one but the word of a convicted forger vouching for the so called document from Kenya….

    I think it may be a fine point, but I don’t believe that anyone in the state has issued any public statements/interviews that there is a COLB issued for Obama or that what we’ve seen is genuine. My reading of the reason is that it is an issue with their privacy laws that they can’t discuss a particular person’s issued birth certificate. As it is, the COLB should be self-certifying with the seal and reproduction of the registrar’s signature. As you pointed out, there are several images available for which to compare the image of President Obama’s BC. I believe the document to be genuine. I’ve read some interviews with the Health Dept spokesperson that “certain images” do seem to be consistent with the makeup of a Hawaii COLB, but I don’t recall President Obama’s COLB to be directly referred to. They’re certainly carefully stepping around the details to avoid breaking any laws.

    What I’ve recalled over the last 2+ years is that the Hawaii state health director has stated that she’s verified that Obama’s original BC is on file, but hasn’t issued any details beyond what’s considered a public record (name, DOB, place of birth).

  448. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 19, 2011 at 6:34 pm #

    Lucas D. Smith: I know that you are a bright guy and all but the following HOSPITAL birth certificate from 1950 (USA by the way) contains about the same info as the 1961 CPGH Obama bc.

    No signature from mummy and daddy. Only the doctor and the director signed. Nice single footy’ as well. Then there’s that pesky embossed seal.

    How do you call it? A forgery? I hope you don’t because I know for certain that it is real.

    It’s been on my scribd account (just like all the linked evidence that I have supplied throughout the comments section here) and since 11.28.2009.

    “Patricia Anne Gillespie / 1950 hospital birth certificate with one footprint / embossed seal”

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/23274567/Patricia-Anne-Gillespie-1950-hospital-birth-certificate-with-one-footprint-embossed-seal?in_collection=2511118

    That’s cute. I actually did software for the University of Michigan hospital back in the day. And talk about flashes from the past: Drusilla!

    That’s a hospital souvenir birth certificate all right (or analogous to one). I saw one of those a couple weeks ago when my grandson was born. But, as someone else here said, you couldn’t get a certified copy of that because the hospital isn’t the agency that issues certified copies of birth certificates, nor apparently is the Coast General Hospital in Mombasa.

    This is what I said way back when I first looked at this ting: it looks like a cross between a government issued certificate and a hospital souvenir, but it can’t be both.

  449. avatar
    Mary Adams March 19, 2011 at 7:02 pm #

    gorefan: This explains the lack of child name,

    http://www.immihelp.com/birth-certificate/name-issues.html#no-name-birth-certificate

    “It is a religious custom in India not to name the child immediately after birth. Therefore, hospital records and/or birth records may not show the name of the child, even if the birth was reported and registered.”

    But there is not even a PLACE for the child’s name.

    There is no way that thing is a BC. It is evidence for the parents to take to the govt. to register the birth.

    “Additional Information for India

    Registration of birth (reporting birth) was voluntary prior to 1970. However, even after 1970, many people didn’t register the birth as there was no strict enforcement.

    A birth certificate can be obtained at local municipal or village authorities […] that are maintained under the state laws.”

    http://www.immihelp.com/birth-certificate/birth-certificate-tips-india.html

    This would indicate it it the family’s responsibility to register births.

  450. avatar
    gorefan March 19, 2011 at 7:16 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: that hospital in Mombasa could have a drawer full of fake Obama birth certificates that they sell to gullible Americans for $5,000 a pop.

    Some of the 419 scams actually require the victim to travel to Nigeria or a neighboring country. And also involve Nigerian government officials and buildings.

    If Lucas visited Kenya (and that is a big if), he was probably siezed up as a mark early on. After reading his detailed account of his visit, I wondered how the same story would unfold if told from the point of view of the Kenyans.

    Coast General Hospital in Mombasa, February, 2009

    As she stood at the counter, Doli Okeke could not believe her eyes. The pale, young American had just placed $5000 on the counter and all he wanted was one of the Obama Birth Certificates. She looked over to Maalik Nwosu, it had originally been his idea to print up the birth certificates. She had never been convinced that anyone would pay for such nonsense, but Maalik said Americans were gullible. But $5000, they never though they would get that much, maybe $100 or $200, but $5000. Maalik was right Americans are gullible.

    Maalik gave Doli a nod and she left to get the paper. She was grateful to leave the room as it was all she could do to keep from breakout in laughter.

    As she skipped down the hall, she began to think about what she would do with her share of the money. Maybe some new clothes or a new TV. She opened the door to the janitors closet, where they kept the fake certificates. She froze, she had to stop thinking of them as “fakes”, as Maalik said, they are souvenirs. No different from the elephant tusks, rino horns or witchdoctor masks, they sold in the shops in town. She took the top copy from a stack of certificates that sat next to the bottles of cleaner.

    Leaving the closet, she crossed the hall to the nurse’s station. One last, final touch, a current date stamp. She smile when she noticed that they had misspelled the name of the incoming administrator. Oh well, no one in America would know the difference. As she walked back to the office where the American waited for his prize, she thought ‘Maybe she would take a nice vacation with her boyfriend.’

  451. avatar
    gorefan March 19, 2011 at 7:27 pm #

    y_p_w: but I don’t recall President Obama’s COLB to be directly referred to.

    There is this sworn statement by Chiyome Leinaala Fukino, M.D.,

    “For more than a year, the Department of Health has continued to receive approximately 50 e- mail inquiries a month seeking access to President Barack Obama’s birth certificate in spite of the fact that President Obama has posted a copy of the certificate on his former campaign website.”

    http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2010/Testimony/SB2937_TESTIMONY_JGO_02-23-10_LATE.pdf

  452. avatar
    Scientist March 19, 2011 at 7:31 pm #

    Black Lion: The essential difference is that on one hand we have a government agency vouching for one document from HI and we have on one but the word of a convicted forger vouching for the so called document from Kenya….

    I think the reallly ESSENTIAL difference is that someone who lives in Hawaii giving birth in Hawaii makes sense and giving birth in Kenya doesn’t. Personally, I never needed to see the COLB nor have it vouched for, since there was no reason to ever doubt that the President was born in Hawaii given what we know of his family circumstances.

  453. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 19, 2011 at 7:38 pm #

    gorefan: If Lucas visited Kenya (and that is a big if), he was probably siezed up as a mark early on. After reading his detailed account of his visit, I wondered how the same story would unfold if told from the point of view of the Kenyans.

    Your narrative flowed nicely. That was very entertaining.

  454. avatar
    y_p_w March 19, 2011 at 7:50 pm #

    gorefan: http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2010/Testimony/SB2937_TESTIMONY_JGO_02-23-10_LATE.pdf

    Thanks. Hadn’t seen that before.

    Still – I haven’t seen anything that verifies that “We have determined that the image is a true and accurate rendition of the actual birth certificate.” I still don’t think they have the authority to adjudicate whether or not the image is of an authentic document. I would love for them to have said that, but I can’t find such a statement anywhere.

  455. avatar
    Woofie March 19, 2011 at 7:51 pm #

    Lucas Smith has presented no evidence in all this time that shows he has travelled to anywhere outside of the US except the Dominican Republic and Haiti. Smith is supposedly a conservative yet he has ranted against GW Bush sounding exactly like a member of Move On.com. He is not welcome at Free Republic anymore and posts about him are pulled.
    The best explanation for Smith and what he has done is that he has a mental illness and he is at heart a con man. The last thing he has claimed is that he was kidnapped drugged and held in Mexico by what he thinks were US agents.

    There is no need to waste any more time on him.

  456. avatar
    Dr. Conspiracy March 19, 2011 at 8:44 pm #

    Slartibartfast: Conversely, for those trying to prove that the document could have been plausibly forged, it isn’t sufficient to show that the kerning could have been done by available methods – in order to be reasonable it needs to be something that could have been done carelessly (rather than intentionally) by a forger – something that automatically happens when using a modern version of a Caslon font, for instance. It isn’t reasonable to think that a forger would go out of their way to include evidence of forgery in their work… In any case, I think that you will find that the people here are willing to give any evidence you have a fair hearing, but I suspect that you wont like the consensus which emerges from ALL the evidence…

    Let’s take a step backwards.

    Sef (in a previous comment) claims to have a copy of the Adobe Caslon font and that the Smith certificate does not match it. I don’t know what specific issues Sef found. I have a copy of Bitstream Caslon 540 and it doesn’t match the Smith certificate either (the “W” is wrong) and using Microsoft Word, the “y” doesn’t hang under the “n” in “Kenya” by default, nor can you make it look that way using the character spacing tools in Word 2007.

    So not only have we not found an “ny” ligature in a historical document, we haven’t found one in a modern word processing program using Caslon font either.

    Clearly both sides have work to do.

    Also note, this thread is getting far too long (it’s taking the server 5 seconds to generate the page), so I will close this one down tomorrow and make a new one to continue the discussion.

  457. avatar
    gorefan March 19, 2011 at 8:44 pm #

    Dr. Conspiracy: Your narrative flowed nicely. That was very entertaining.

    Thank you. Lucas Smith isn’t the only one who can write fiction.

  458. avatar
    Expelliarmus March 19, 2011 at 8:45 pm #

    Sean: The 2nd Kenyan BC looks good except it shows they paid the fee in the form of shillings. Kenya, as far as I know, used dollars and cents.

    No, Kenya currency currently is in shillings. From 1922-1964 it was the East African Shilling, and from 1966 on it has been the Kenya shilling. At no time has it been dollars or cents; prior to 1922 it was Indian rupees. See:
    http://www.centralbank.go.ke/Currency/CurrencyHistory.aspx

  459. avatar
    Joey March 19, 2011 at 8:59 pm #

    y_p_w: I think it may be a fine point, but I don’t believe that anyone in the state has issued any public statements/interviews that there is a COLB issued for Obama or that what we’ve seen is genuine.My reading of the reason is that it is an issue with their privacy laws that they can’t discuss a particular person’s issued birth certificate.As it is, the COLB should be self-certifying with the seal and reproduction of the registrar’s signature.As you pointed out, there are several images available for which to compare the image of President Obama’s BC.I believe the document to be genuine.I’ve read some interviews with the Health Dept spokesperson that “certain images” do seem to be consistent with the makeup of a Hawaii COLB, but I don’t recall President Obama’s COLB to be directly referred to.They’re certainly carefully stepping around the details to avoid breaking any laws.

    What I’ve recalled over the last 2+ years is that the Hawaii state health director has stated that she’s verified that Obama’s original BC is on file, but hasn’t issued any details beyond what’s considered a public record (name, DOB, place of birth).

    In addition to Dr. Fukino’s testimony, Janice Okubo who is Director of Communications and Public Relations Officer for the Hawaii Department of Health was interviewed by the Washington Independent and she stated that the copy of Obama’s COLB posted on the web should have debunked the conspiracy theories.
    Ms. Okubo’s exact quote was:
    Ironically, the birther’ movement began in response to Obama’s own efforts to debunk rumors. One year ago this week, the presidential campaign of then-Sen. Barack Obama launched FightTheSmears.com, a web site designed to push back against false rumors about the first African-American presidential nominee. To push back against rumors that he was not born in Hawaii, the campaign reproduced a Certificate of Live Birth from the state’s Health Department. Instead of terminating the conspiracy theories, that inspired new theories — that the certificate had been forged or that even if it hadn’t been forged it was the sort of certificate that could be given to someone born outside of the United States. But the certificate is specific about Obama’s birth in Honolulu, down to the 7:24 p.m. time.

    “It’s crazy,” said Janice Okubo, director of communications for the Hawaii Department of Health. “I don’t think anything is ever going to satisfy them.”

    Okubo, who said that she gets weekly questions from Obama Birthers’ that are “more like threats,” explained that the certificate of live birth reproduced by Obama’s campaign should have debunked the conspiracy theories. “If you were born in Bali, for example,” Okubo explained, “you could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were born in Bali. You could not get a certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate. But it’s become very clear that it doesn’t matter what I say. The people who are questioning this bring up all these implausible scenarios. What if the physician lied? What if the state lied? It’s just become an urban legend at this point.”

    http://washingtonindependent.com/51489/birther-movement-picks-up-steam

  460. avatar
    Sean March 19, 2011 at 9:07 pm #

    Expelliarmus: No, Kenya currency currently is in shillings.From 1922-1964 it was the East African Shilling,and from 1966 on it has been the Kenya shilling.At no time has it been dollars or cents; prior to 1922 it was Indian rupees.See:
    http://www.centralbank.go.ke/Currency/CurrencyHistory.aspx

    I stand corrected. It was shilling and cents, not dollars and cents.

  461. avatar
    Joey March 19, 2011 at 9:16 pm #

    Also, in an interview discussing what exactly is a Hawaii COLB, Janice Okubo, Director of Communications for the Hawaii Department of Health stated that Obama’s COLB is “the same certfied copy everybody receives when they request a birth certificate.”

    Born identity
    By June Watanabe
    POSTED: Saturday, June 06, 2009
    Honolulu Star-Bulliten
    Question: What is the state’s policy for issuing a “Certification of Live Birth” versus a “Certificate of Live Birth”? My first, second and fourth children received certificates, but my third and fifth children received certifications. Why the difference? The certificate contains more information, such as the name of hospital, certifier’s name and title; attendant’s name and title, etc. The certification has only the child’s name, date and time of birth, sex, city/island/county of birth, mother’s maiden name, mother’s race, father’s name and father’s race. Why doesn’t the state just issue certificates? When did it stop issuing certificates? Is it possible to obtain certificates for my third and fifth children?
    Answer: No, you can’t obtain a “certificate of live birth” anymore.
    The state Department of Health no longer issues copies of paper birth certificates as was done in the past, said spokeswoman Janice Okubo.The department only issues “certifications” of live births, and that is the “official birth certificate” issued by the state of Hawaii, she said.
    And, it’s only available in electronic form.
    Okubo explained that the Health Department went paperless in 2001.
    “At that time, all information for births from 1908 (on) was put into electronic files for consistent reporting,” she said.
    Information about births is transferred electronically from hospitals to the department.
    “The electronic record of the birth is what (the Health Department) now keeps on file in order to provide same-day certified copies at our help window for most requests,” Okubo said.
    Asked for more information about the short-form versus long-form birth documents, Okubo said the Health Department “does not have a short-form or long-form certificate.”
    “The birth certificate form has been modified over the years and decades to conform to national standards and models,” she said.
    Okubo also emphasized the certification form “contains all the information needed by all federal government agencies for transactions requiring a birth certificate.”
    She added that the U.S. Supreme Court has recognized the state’s current certification of live birth “as an official birth certificate meeting all federal and other requirements.”
    The issue of what constitutes an official Hawaii birth certificate received national attention during last year’s presidential campaign. Those who doubted Barack Obama’s American citizenship called the copy of the Hawaii birth document posted on his campaign Web site a fake.
    Asked about that document, Okubo said, “This is the same certified copy everyone receives when they request a birth certificate.”
    We found a discussion of “the truth about Obama’s birth certificate” on the Web site FactCheck.org—http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html.
    The organization describes itself as “a nonpartisan, nonprofit ‘consumer advocate’ for voters that aims to reduce the level of deception and